From maclewis1 at gmail.com Mon Jan 1 15:00:00 2024 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2024 13:00:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Rapid shutdown with 2023 compliance Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, I need to retrofit a Schneider XW+ system with a rapid shutdown system. The owner purchased this equipment about 4-5 years ago but is trying to get it past a *very *intense inspector. To me, it looks relatively straightforward to get NEC 2023 rapid shutdown compliant using Tigo TS4AF, and adding Schneider's MPPT Disconnect RS and external rapid shutdown initiator. It's a little strange though because it has 2017 NEC compliant all over the documentation but I believe we are good through NEC 2023 because shutdown occurs at a module level and the Disconnect RS can take care of arc-fault monitoring. Does anyone have any documentation for the MPPT Disconnect RS that doesn't specifically call out (only) NEC 2017 compliant? Or if this is not a good approach and is not reliable, I would appreciate your input as well. Cheers! -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Mon Jan 1 16:09:15 2024 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2024 15:09:15 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Rapid shutdown with 2023 compliance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I had a some way similar experience I used fire raptor and added a relay to use Raptor signal to shutdown inverter. On Mon, Jan 1, 2024, 2:01 PM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > I need to retrofit a Schneider XW+ system with a rapid shutdown system. > The owner purchased this equipment about 4-5 years ago but is trying to get > it past a *very *intense inspector. > > To me, it looks relatively straightforward to get NEC 2023 rapid shutdown > compliant using Tigo TS4AF, and adding Schneider's MPPT Disconnect RS and > external rapid shutdown initiator. It's a little strange though because it > has 2017 NEC compliant all over the documentation but I believe we are good > through NEC 2023 because shutdown occurs at a module level and the > Disconnect RS can take care of arc-fault monitoring. > > Does anyone have any documentation for the MPPT Disconnect RS that doesn't > specifically call out (only) NEC 2017 compliant? > > Or if this is not a good approach and is not reliable, I would appreciate > your input as well. > > Cheers! > > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emerkel15 at gmail.com Mon Jan 1 16:38:09 2024 From: emerkel15 at gmail.com (Evan M) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2024 16:38:09 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AFCI on DC coupled PV+BESS Message-ID: Hey wrenches, Curious if anyone has a good suggestion for meeting 690.11 on roof mounted commercial scale DC coupled PV+storage. When string inverters started getting 1699B listed, the usual suspects stopped making AFCI combiners. The DC/DC converter and storage inverter (we're reverse DC coupling) we're using don't have AFCI, which is typical of BESS equipment, and without those older AFCI combiners we don't really have a way to meet code. I'd just go AC coupled but the equipment is already bought. Thanks in advance! Evan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Mon Jan 1 17:18:13 2024 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2024 14:18:13 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Rapid shutdown with 2023 compliance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Note that the MPPT disco RS works only with Schneider charge controllers. With any other charge controllers you'll need to use Fire Raptors. Specifically the power line type rsd do not work with classic cc. I see no reason why the Schneider units would not meet 2020 or 2023 codes. On Mon, Jan 1, 2024, 1:10 PM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I had a some way similar experience I used fire raptor and added a relay > to use Raptor signal to shutdown inverter. > > On Mon, Jan 1, 2024, 2:01 PM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> I need to retrofit a Schneider XW+ system with a rapid shutdown system. >> The owner purchased this equipment about 4-5 years ago but is trying to get >> it past a *very *intense inspector. >> >> To me, it looks relatively straightforward to get NEC 2023 rapid shutdown >> compliant using Tigo TS4AF, and adding Schneider's MPPT Disconnect RS and >> external rapid shutdown initiator. It's a little strange though because it >> has 2017 NEC compliant all over the documentation but I believe we are good >> through NEC 2023 because shutdown occurs at a module level and the >> Disconnect RS can take care of arc-fault monitoring. >> >> Does anyone have any documentation for the MPPT Disconnect RS that >> doesn't specifically call out (only) NEC 2017 compliant? >> >> Or if this is not a good approach and is not reliable, I would appreciate >> your input as well. >> >> Cheers! >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Tue Jan 2 13:24:11 2024 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2024 18:24:11 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Rapid shutdown with 2023 compliance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mac, I’ve just gone through a couple installations with a similar situation. The hardware you list does work as intended. I had to go through three different suppliers to get all the components. One thing that I didn’t find clear in the MPPT RS documentation is when a shutdown is initiated, it shuts _everything_ on the Xanbus network down. All devices go into standby mode. Gen shuts down if running. Power is off. Not just the PV via Tigo modules. Had to develop client instruction sheet as to how to power up after a shutdown. On one hand, I can see why a single point shutdown is desired outcome. But it concerns me that it’s vulnerable to abuse. If the whole system shutdown is not desired, the Xanbus connection can be omitted and then RS will be limited to the PV modules only. Kevin From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches Sent: January-01-24 12:00 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Mac Lewis Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Rapid shutdown with 2023 compliance Hello Wrenches, I need to retrofit a Schneider XW+ system with a rapid shutdown system. The owner purchased this equipment about 4-5 years ago but is trying to get it past a very intense inspector. To me, it looks relatively straightforward to get NEC 2023 rapid shutdown compliant using Tigo TS4AF, and adding Schneider's MPPT Disconnect RS and external rapid shutdown initiator. It's a little strange though because it has 2017 NEC compliant all over the documentation but I believe we are good through NEC 2023 because shutdown occurs at a module level and the Disconnect RS can take care of arc-fault monitoring. Does anyone have any documentation for the MPPT Disconnect RS that doesn't specifically call out (only) NEC 2017 compliant? Or if this is not a good approach and is not reliable, I would appreciate your input as well. Cheers! -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Jan 2 14:26:36 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2024 11:26:36 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Rapid shutdown with 2023 compliance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You said that very nicely Kevin ! If this were for offgrid, I would make the inspector happy and do even more than Kevin suggests after he is gone. 😉 Link to RS shutdown https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMoVXq4m1wk&t=10s Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-01-02 10:24 am, Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Mac, > > I've just gone through a couple installations with a similar situation. > > The hardware you list does work as intended. I had to go through three > different suppliers to get all the components. > > One thing that I didn't find clear in the MPPT RS documentation is when > a shutdown is initiated, it shuts __everything__ on the Xanbus network > down. All devices go into standby mode. Gen shuts down if running. > Power is off. Not just the PV via Tigo modules. Had to develop client > instruction sheet as to how to power up after a shutdown. > > On one hand, I can see why a single point shutdown is desired outcome. > But it concerns me that it's vulnerable to abuse. If the whole system > shutdown is not desired, the Xanbus connection can be omitted and then > RS will be limited to the PV modules only. > > Kevin > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf > Of Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches > Sent: January-01-24 12:00 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Mac Lewis > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Rapid shutdown with 2023 compliance > > Hello Wrenches, > > I need to retrofit a Schneider XW+ system with a rapid shutdown system. > The owner purchased this equipment about 4-5 years ago but is trying > to get it past a very intense inspector. > > To me, it looks relatively straightforward to get NEC 2023 rapid > shutdown compliant using Tigo TS4AF, and adding Schneider's MPPT > Disconnect RS and external rapid shutdown initiator. It's a little > strange though because it has 2017 NEC compliant all over the > documentation but I believe we are good through NEC 2023 because > shutdown occurs at a module level and the Disconnect RS can take care > of arc-fault monitoring. > > Does anyone have any documentation for the MPPT Disconnect RS that > doesn't specifically call out (only) NEC 2017 compliant? > > Or if this is not a good approach and is not reliable, I would > appreciate your input as well. > > Cheers! > > -- > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed Jan 3 12:28:31 2024 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2024 17:28:31 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] USDA Rural Development fund Message-ID: Hey all! A happy, Safe & Prosperous New Year to You All! I have a brewery that is wanting to do a grid tie system - 2 meters; 1 is split phase & 1 is 3 phase & the initial request was about USDA Rural Development funding. I have no experience with this. Any suggestions? Has anyone applied for this? Experience? I have heard it is a pile of paperwork to say the least. Thanks _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Wed Jan 3 13:29:26 2024 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2024 11:29:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solarworld 260W mono In-Reply-To: References: <056501da038f$585568d0$09003a70$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <012301da3e72$c85cf4e0$5916dea0$@OasisMontana.com> Hi folks: I have a fellow looking for six of the Solarworld 260s. If you got ‘em and wish to part with them, please contact me off list. Happy new year! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rick at solshineenergy.com Wed Jan 3 13:44:33 2024 From: rick at solshineenergy.com (rick at solshineenergy.com) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2024 13:44:33 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Amorphous PV Message-ID: <2D18473F-97D3-401B-B199-C3B166266F5B@solshineenergy.com> Is anyone using amorphous PV for metal roof, residential applications? Looking for something similar to what Uni-Solar use to offer years ago. Thanks in advance, rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergy.com Roanoke, VA Office: 540.235.3095 Mobile: 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21  -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: solshine-01-18-17 copy.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 10151 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solareagle at solareagle.com Wed Jan 3 17:04:30 2024 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (Ron Young) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2024 14:04:30 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Recommendations for A/B battery switch Message-ID: Hi Wrenches & Happy New Year! I have a client who wants to switch between two 24v 800 a/h battery banks. I know this isn’t a recommended strategy and have advised him accordingly but he still insists this is a method he wants to use in his off-grid system. None of the A/B type switches I look at are really designed for regular use or that high an amp requirement. Is there a commercial product anyone has used that might do the job? Thanks in advance! Ron Best Regards, Ron Young Solareagle.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jan 3 17:47:22 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2024 15:47:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Recommendations for A/B battery switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3C08D662-3617-4CA9-A90A-0C45880A45E6@gmail.com> HI Ron, I prefer to use two ON/OFF switches rather than A/B. That way you can always have power to the loads if you want. I can’t say they are the best but the Perko 9703 seems high quality and has been around for years. Its just a single on/off rated at 450 amps continuous and UL marine. Jay > On Jan 3, 2024, at 3:04 PM, Ron Young via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi Wrenches & Happy New Year! > > I have a client who wants to switch between two 24v 800 a/h battery banks. I know this isn’t a recommended strategy and have advised him accordingly but he still insists this is a method he wants to use in his off-grid system. None of the A/B type switches I look at are really designed for regular use or that high an amp requirement. Is there a commercial product anyone has used that might do the job? > > Thanks in advance! > > Ron > > Best Regards, > Ron Young > Solareagle.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Mon Jan 8 16:44:11 2024 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2024 21:44:11 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA String inverters Message-ID: What are you wrenches that used to install the SBXXXX-41 units sourcing now? Looks like there is a new model on their website Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Mon Jan 8 19:19:50 2024 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2024 19:19:50 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA String inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We haven’t used the -41s for just over a year, because they aren’t UL1741SB compliant (which became required here in NY last January). Additionally, the last time we did use the -41s we discovered (upon receiving the units) that they weren’t WiFi compatible anymore (due to some parts shortages) and that the inverters had to be hardwired in order to access monitoring. The new inverter line that shows up on the SMA website is UL1741SB compliant, but the last time I checked with my distributor (a few weeks ago) they still weren’t able to get access to them. On Mon, Jan 8, 2024 at 4:44 PM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > What are you wrenches that used to install the SBXXXX-41 units sourcing > now? Looks like there is a new model on their website > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Tue Jan 9 11:06:44 2024 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2024 11:06:44 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA String inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We also stopped using the -41's in 2023 due to the -SB requirement in NY. We moved to Enphase for grid tied systems. I am hearing from Greentech that the new Sunny Boy units, up to 7.7kw, should be available very soon. These will have a secure power supply capability. But the larger KW units and the better backup options will not be available until likely this summer. Its been tough for string inverters here recently, but I am hoping these new Sunny Boy's are good. Cheers, Dave On Mon, Jan 8, 2024 at 7:20 PM AE Solar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We haven’t used the -41s for just over a year, because they aren’t > UL1741SB compliant (which became required here in NY last January). > Additionally, the last time we did use the -41s we discovered (upon > receiving the units) that they weren’t WiFi compatible anymore (due to some > parts shortages) and that the inverters had to be hardwired in order to > access monitoring. The new inverter line that shows up on the SMA website > is UL1741SB compliant, but the last time I checked with my distributor (a > few weeks ago) they still weren’t able to get access to them. > > On Mon, Jan 8, 2024 at 4:44 PM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> What are you wrenches that used to install the SBXXXX-41 units sourcing >> now? Looks like there is a new model on their website >> >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> Solar Installation / Design >> All Solar, Inc. >> 1453 M St. >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Tue Jan 9 11:56:11 2024 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2024 11:56:11 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] USDA Rural Development fund In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Daniel, it is a lot of paperwork, but if they pay you for your time, and they should, I think it is worth it. Importantly, you need to speak with the regional office administering this fund and make sure you know what they are requiring. Some of them use a subcontractor to help, but you do NOT need to work with the sub. I had a very bad experience with one of them in New England who was not very knowledgeable about the technology, and was impossible to work with. I do know of a lot of oyster farms here who I turned on to this and used it to power their processing facilities. Chris On 1/3/2024 12:28 PM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hey all! A happy, Safe & Prosperous New Year to You All! > > I have a brewery that is wanting to do a grid tie system - 2 meters; 1 > is split phase & 1 is 3 phase & the initial request was about USDA > Rural Development funding. > > I have no experience with this. > > Any suggestions? > > Has anyone applied for this? > > Experience? > > I have heard it is a pile of paperwork to say the least. > > Thanks > > _________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! > > C – 208.721.7003      E – dana at solarwork.com > > W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com > > /_“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”_/ > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > --             Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/vcard Size: 203 bytes Desc: not available URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Tue Jan 9 13:21:28 2024 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2024 13:21:28 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] USDA Rural Development fund In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We were able to access that a few years ago for a brewery project and were granted the money. I used a grant writer who works with solar companies specifically on accessing that funding. Their intake online walked you through what you may or may not be eligible for. They were great to work with and I felt the price was worth it. I could dig up their contact info if that’s of interest. On Tue, Jan 9, 2024 at 11:57 AM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Daniel, it is a lot of paperwork, but if they pay you for your time, > and they should, I think it is worth it. Importantly, you need to speak > with the regional office administering this fund and make sure you know > what they are requiring. Some of them use a subcontractor to help, but you > do NOT need to work with the sub. I had a very bad experience with one of > them in New England who was not very knowledgeable about the technology, > and was impossible to work with. > > I do know of a lot of oyster farms here who I turned on to this and used > it to power their processing facilities. > > > Chris > > > On 1/3/2024 12:28 PM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hey all! A happy, Safe & Prosperous New Year to You All! > > > > I have a brewery that is wanting to do a grid tie system - 2 meters; 1 is > split phase & 1 is 3 phase & the initial request was about USDA Rural > Development funding. > > I have no experience with this. > > Any suggestions? > > Has anyone applied for this? > > Experience? > > I have heard it is a pile of paperwork to say the least. > > > > Thanks > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! > > C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com > > W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com > > *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > Christopher Warfel > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-466-8978 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Wed Jan 10 12:20:43 2024 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 10:20:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solarworld Warranty Claims Through Sunpower Message-ID: Wrenches, A colleague is inquiring about how to proceed with Solarworld warranty claims after its 2018 acquisition of the Solarworld brand. If anyone can provide successes or failures along those lines I would appreciate being able to share that info with my colleague. If I am able to determine more detail elsewhere and anyone on this list would like to have that info shared with them please let me know off-list. Sincerely, Sam [image: OnSite Energy] SAM HARALDSON Field Operations Director (406) 551-6135 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 Locally owned and operated since 2012 [image: B Corporation] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Jan 10 12:53:09 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 09:53:09 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA String inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jeremy: We generally avoided using the 41 series inverter for reasons specified here . If you find a new string inverter in the SMA lineup, you might want to check to see if they have resolved some of the shortcomings. I have not had reason to use string inverters because, other than Solar Edge, they do not offer intrinsic rapid shutdown. Careful reading of the NEC indicates that even ground mount arrays require RSS unless the PV feeders run to a building with the sole use being to house solar equipment. Having said that, I would imagine that if an inverter were mounted on the ground-mount rack, the requirement for RSS could be avoided. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, January 8, 2024 1:44 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: Jeremy Rodriguez Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA String inverters What are you wrenches that used to install the SBXXXX-41 units sourcing now? Looks like there is a new model on their website Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Jan 10 18:25:11 2024 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 15:25:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA String inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We're starting to install the Tesla Solar Inverter with good results: https://www.tesla.com/support/energy/solar-inverter/tesla-solar-inverter It is going to be a tough product for others to compete with - the price point is low and features are high. 4 x MPPTs with low tracking voltage (60 VDC), built in consumption monitoring, one SKU to handle 7.6 kW, 5.7 kW, 5 kW, 3.8 kW AC rating via software programming, built in ethernet/WiFi/cellular and the rapid shutdown can meet the NEC hazard control system requirements meaning that only one Mid-Circuit Interrupter (MCI) is needed for every three modules. All in all, a solid offering with lots of design flexibility. Time will tell how reliable they are. Best, August On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 10:04 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jeremy: > > > > We generally avoided using the 41 series inverter for reasons specified > here > . > If you find a new string inverter in the SMA lineup, you might want to > check to see if they have resolved some of the shortcomings. > > > > I have not had reason to use string inverters because, other than Solar > Edge, they do not offer intrinsic rapid shutdown. Careful reading of the > NEC indicates that even ground mount arrays require RSS unless the PV > feeders run to a building with the sole use being to house solar > equipment. Having said that, I would imagine that if an inverter were > mounted on the ground-mount rack, the requirement for RSS could be avoided. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches > Sent: Monday, January 8, 2024 1:44 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Cc: Jeremy Rodriguez > Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA String inverters > > > > What are you wrenches that used to install the SBXXXX-41 units sourcing > now? Looks like there is a new model on their website > > > > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > > Solar Installation / Design > > All Solar, Inc. > > 1453 M St. > > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Jan 10 19:27:14 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 16:27:14 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA String inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8d34029c6c6a0fe1e15bc737d9f4cda8@sti.net> Hi August, I was told Tesla has LFP battery now. True? Thanks ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [3]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [4] [3] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-01-10 3:25 pm, August Goers via RE-wrenches wrote: > We're starting to install the Tesla Solar Inverter with good results: > > https://www.tesla.com/support/energy/solar-inverter/tesla-solar-inverter > > It is going to be a tough product for others to compete with - the > price point is low and features are high. 4 x MPPTs with low tracking > voltage (60 VDC), built in consumption monitoring, one SKU to handle > 7.6 kW, 5.7 kW, 5 kW, 3.8 kW AC rating via software programming, built > in ethernet/WiFi/cellular and the rapid shutdown can meet the NEC > hazard control system requirements meaning that only one Mid-Circuit > Interrupter (MCI) is needed for every three modules. All in all, a > solid offering with lots of design flexibility. Time will tell how > reliable they are. > > Best, August > > On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 10:04 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: > >> Jeremy: >> >> We generally avoided using the 41 series inverter for reasons >> specified here [1]. If you find a new string inverter in the SMA >> lineup, you might want to check to see if they have resolved some of >> the shortcomings. >> >> I have not had reason to use string inverters because, other than >> Solar Edge, they do not offer intrinsic rapid shutdown. Careful >> reading of the NEC indicates that even ground mount arrays require RSS >> unless the PV feeders run to a building with the sole use being to >> house solar equipment. Having said that, I would imagine that if an >> inverter were mounted on the ground-mount rack, the requirement for >> RSS could be avoided. >> >> William Miller >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com [2] >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] >> On Behalf Of Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches >> Sent: Monday, January 8, 2024 1:44 PM >> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Cc: Jeremy Rodriguez >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA String inverters >> >> What are you wrenches that used to install the SBXXXX-41 units >> sourcing now? Looks like there is a new model on their website >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> >> Solar Installation / Design >> >> All Solar, Inc. >> >> 1453 M St. >> >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/SMA_40_Series/Whats_wrong_with_40_Series.html [2] http://www.millersolar.com [3] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [4] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Jan 11 15:55:22 2024 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 12:55:22 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA String inverters In-Reply-To: <8d34029c6c6a0fe1e15bc737d9f4cda8@sti.net> References: <8d34029c6c6a0fe1e15bc737d9f4cda8@sti.net> Message-ID: Hi Dave - Yes, the Powerwall 3 has LFP cells. I believe they are planning on shipping it for the mass market later this year. It looks cool from what I've seen - DC coupled (one inverter for both PV and battery) with 6 PV trackers, 11.5 kW AC output, among other features. August On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 4:28 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi August, > > I was told Tesla has LFP battery now. True? Thanks ! > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2024-01-10 3:25 pm, August Goers via RE-wrenches wrote: > > We're starting to install the Tesla Solar Inverter with good results: > > https://www.tesla.com/support/energy/solar-inverter/tesla-solar-inverter > > It is going to be a tough product for others to compete with - the price > point is low and features are high. 4 x MPPTs with low tracking voltage (60 > VDC), built in consumption monitoring, one SKU to handle 7.6 kW, 5.7 kW, 5 > kW, 3.8 kW AC rating via software programming, built in > ethernet/WiFi/cellular and the rapid shutdown can meet the NEC hazard > control system requirements meaning that only one Mid-Circuit > Interrupter (MCI) is needed for every three modules. All in all, a solid > offering with lots of design flexibility. Time will tell how reliable they > are. > > Best, August > > > > On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 10:04 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Jeremy: > > > > We generally avoided using the 41 series inverter for reasons specified > here > . > If you find a new string inverter in the SMA lineup, you might want to > check to see if they have resolved some of the shortcomings. > > > > I have not had reason to use string inverters because, other than Solar > Edge, they do not offer intrinsic rapid shutdown. Careful reading of the > NEC indicates that even ground mount arrays require RSS unless the PV > feeders run to a building with the sole use being to house solar > equipment. Having said that, I would imagine that if an inverter were > mounted on the ground-mount rack, the requirement for RSS could be avoided. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches > Sent: Monday, January 8, 2024 1:44 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Cc: Jeremy Rodriguez > Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA String inverters > > > > What are you wrenches that used to install the SBXXXX-41 units sourcing > now? Looks like there is a new model on their website > > > > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > > Solar Installation / Design > > All Solar, Inc. > > 1453 M St. > > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Jan 11 17:58:21 2024 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 17:58:21 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cantilevered array Message-ID: I was given a drawing, produced by a very large solar company, showing the array cantilevered over the edge of the roof by several feet. Notice how the array hangs out over the lawn for several feet. Is there anyway that this is a legitimate way to mount modules? Thanks, Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: a21c5a3d.png Type: image/png Size: 175783 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Jan 11 18:31:05 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 15:31:05 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cantilevered array In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Drake: That’s the problem with large companies William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 2:59 PM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I was given a drawing, produced by a very large solar company, showing the > array cantilevered over the edge of the roof by several feet. > > > Notice how the array hangs out over the lawn for several feet. Is there > anyway that this is a legitimate way to mount modules? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > > *Drake Chamberlin* > > *Athens Electric LLC* > > *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: a21c5a3d.png Type: image/png Size: 175783 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Jan 11 23:30:43 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 20:30:43 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Odd battery charging behavior with Outback inverters Message-ID: <24871ffdeea48d70dcd136d582097e9b@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I got a call from a client inquiring as to why his generator was starting every morning, even though no one was staying at the property and there was decent, albeit winter, sunshine. While looking into it I noticed that when his generator did run the battery voltage did not stay at absorb level for the prescribed time period as set in the battery charging settings. Outback tech support said that, lacking a better theory, it might be possible the FNDC could be affecting the charge settings. I do not allow FNDCs to control generator run, so this seemed unlikely. However I had no better idea and am being not much of a fan of the FNDC, I agreed to unplug it. There was no change in the generator charging voltage profile made by this. I got curiouser and started looking at other Outback sites. All of my normal Outback off-grid systems with both Radian and VFX inverters are exhibiting the same problem. I know this is kind of in the weeds, but that is what we are here for, right? I made a little web page about this issue to easily share information and graphics. Here is the link . This issue has serious implications for my clients. The charging profiles seen are not good for these batteries. Eventually the deficiencies in the charging regime will shorten the life spans of very expensive batteries. I am not very informed about lithium batteries, but I would be interested if this profile is bad or not for lithium batteries. I am hoping this is not a design or programming defect. I would be interested in any shared experience. Maybe some of you could glance at your Optics displays and see if you are seeing the same thing. All input is very much appreciated. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Jan 12 07:29:50 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2024 07:29:50 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cantilevered array In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Are you sure that's what you're looking at? To me, that looks like there was an addition made to the house, and maybe it's a multi-pitch roof. That lower part might be a covered wrap-around porch. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 5:59 PM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I was given a drawing, produced by a very large solar company, showing the > array cantilevered over the edge of the roof by several feet. > > > Notice how the array hangs out over the lawn for several feet. Is there > anyway that this is a legitimate way to mount modules? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > > *Drake Chamberlin* > > *Athens Electric LLC* > > *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: a21c5a3d.png Type: image/png Size: 175783 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Jan 12 07:33:05 2024 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2024 05:33:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Odd battery charging behavior with Outback inverters In-Reply-To: <24871ffdeea48d70dcd136d582097e9b@mail.gmail.com> References: <24871ffdeea48d70dcd136d582097e9b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: William, This is a very timely question, I have been seeing the same thing. I also don't allow any Flexnet interference in charging. I went to investigate a site yesterday and figured this one out. It turned out that the Flexnet was uncalibrated by about 1V on the low side. This was a Lithium site and so there was not significant absorb time and that 1 V is very significant. The solar controller and Radian were calibrated properly so it looked on Optics as though we were never getting full but we were. The Flexnet is a real mixed bag. Its great to have the info but I don't like the difficulty of calibration (loose nuts in the casing) and that the Mate defaults to using its voltage meter. We try to calibrate these as closely as possible. One thing I've noticed when I'm following up others work is that the majority have incorrectly wired/programmed Flexnet DC. They will not have the appropriate shunts activated and so the system constantly reads 100%. A lot of these systems are installed using Outback prewired panels (Im not sure who builds these). If your customer is savvy, you can have them unplug the cable from the Hub that feeds the Flexnet. If the voltage changes significantly, then the calibration could be the issue. Please keep us in the loop on what you are finding. On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 9:46 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > > > I got a call from a client inquiring as to why his generator was starting > every morning, even though no one was staying at the property and there was > decent, albeit winter, sunshine. > > > > While looking into it I noticed that when his generator did run the > battery voltage did not stay at absorb level for the prescribed time period > as set in the battery charging settings. > > > > Outback tech support said that, lacking a better theory, it might be > possible the FNDC could be affecting the charge settings. I do not allow > FNDCs to control generator run, so this seemed unlikely. However I had no > better idea and am being not much of a fan of the FNDC, I agreed to unplug > it. There was no change in the generator charging voltage profile made by > this. > > > > I got curiouser and started looking at other Outback sites. All of my > normal Outback off-grid systems with both Radian and VFX inverters are > exhibiting the same problem. > > > > I know this is kind of in the weeds, but that is what we are here for, > right? I made a little web page about this issue to easily share > information and graphics. Here is the link > > . > > > > This issue has serious implications for my clients. The charging profiles > seen are not good for these batteries. Eventually the deficiencies in the > charging regime will shorten the life spans of very expensive batteries. > > > > I am not very informed about lithium batteries, but I would be interested > if this profile is bad or not for lithium batteries. > > > > I am hoping this is not a design or programming defect. I would be > interested in any shared experience. Maybe some of you could glance at > your Optics displays and see if you are seeing the same thing. All input > is very much appreciated. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Jan 12 08:29:20 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2024 08:29:20 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiPO 48V, 60ah Battery Message-ID: I'm looking for a single battery meeting these specs to pair with an EG4 inverter for off-grid use. Anyone who knows someone who can ship me a single unit at a reasonable price, please let me know (off-list, ok). Thanks, Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Fri Jan 12 08:45:40 2024 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2024 07:45:40 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiPO 48V, 60ah Battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 48V-FLCN-Elite.png Type: image/png Size: 289762 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Fri Jan 12 08:58:04 2024 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2024 08:58:04 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiPO 48V, 60ah Battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001701da455f$5e0645d0$1a12d170$@mindspring.com> Jason You might want to look at the EG4 battery. They are a bit higher on the AH but good batteries and reasonably priced Peter Giroux American Solar From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, January 12, 2024 8:29 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jason Szumlanski Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiPO 48V, 60ah Battery I'm looking for a single battery meeting these specs to pair with an EG4 inverter for off-grid use. Anyone who knows someone who can ship me a single unit at a reasonable price, please let me know (off-list, ok). Thanks, Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Jan 12 09:02:22 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2024 09:02:22 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiPO 48V, 60ah Battery In-Reply-To: <001701da455f$5e0645d0$1a12d170$@mindspring.com> References: <001701da455f$5e0645d0$1a12d170$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: I definitely considered this, but the EG4 100aH batteries are rack mount. I need to wall-mount a battery or put it on a small shelf. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Fri, Jan 12, 2024 at 8:58 AM Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jason > > > > You might want to look at the EG4 battery. They are a bit higher on the > AH but good batteries and reasonably priced > > > > Peter Giroux > > American Solar > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Friday, January 12, 2024 8:29 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] LiPO 48V, 60ah Battery > > > > I'm looking for a single battery meeting these specs to pair with an EG4 > inverter for off-grid use. > > > > Anyone who knows someone who can ship me a single unit at a reasonable > price, please let me know (off-list, ok). > > > > Thanks, > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Fri Jan 12 09:27:52 2024 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2024 09:27:52 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiPO 48V, 60ah Battery In-Reply-To: References: <001701da455f$5e0645d0$1a12d170$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <002c01da4563$86d3fe90$947bfbb0$@mindspring.com> Jason Have installed the EG4 batteries in a non-rack mount when they were out of racks. Inexpensive metal racks from Home Depot or Lowes ( husky racks) could hold 4 to 6 batteries. A shelf is possible but the battery weighs 100+ lbs. They now have a wall mount system though it is roughly 3x the power and performance you need. Just some thoughts peter From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, January 12, 2024 9:02 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jason Szumlanski Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] LiPO 48V, 60ah Battery I definitely considered this, but the EG4 100aH batteries are rack mount. I need to wall-mount a battery or put it on a small shelf. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Fri, Jan 12, 2024 at 8:58 AM Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches > wrote: Jason You might want to look at the EG4 battery. They are a bit higher on the AH but good batteries and reasonably priced Peter Giroux American Solar From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, January 12, 2024 8:29 AM To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Jason Szumlanski > Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiPO 48V, 60ah Battery I'm looking for a single battery meeting these specs to pair with an EG4 inverter for off-grid use. Anyone who knows someone who can ship me a single unit at a reasonable price, please let me know (off-list, ok). Thanks, Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Jan 12 10:24:04 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2024 10:24:04 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiPO 48V, 60ah Battery In-Reply-To: <002c01da4563$86d3fe90$947bfbb0$@mindspring.com> References: <001701da455f$5e0645d0$1a12d170$@mindspring.com> <002c01da4563$86d3fe90$947bfbb0$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: I found a 4U wall mount rack on Amazon that looks like it will carry the weight. I'm going to give it a try. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Fri, Jan 12, 2024 at 9:43 AM Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jason > > > > Have installed the EG4 batteries in a non-rack mount when they were out > of racks. Inexpensive metal racks from Home Depot or Lowes ( husky racks) > could hold 4 to 6 batteries. A shelf is possible but the battery weighs > 100+ lbs. They now have a wall mount system though it is roughly 3x the > power and performance you need. Just some thoughts > > > > peter > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Friday, January 12, 2024 9:02 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] LiPO 48V, 60ah Battery > > > > I definitely considered this, but the EG4 100aH batteries are rack mount. > I need to wall-mount a battery or put it on a small shelf. > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > > > > > On Fri, Jan 12, 2024 at 8:58 AM Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Jason > > > > You might want to look at the EG4 battery. They are a bit higher on the > AH but good batteries and reasonably priced > > > > Peter Giroux > > American Solar > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Friday, January 12, 2024 8:29 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] LiPO 48V, 60ah Battery > > > > I'm looking for a single battery meeting these specs to pair with an EG4 > inverter for off-grid use. > > > > Anyone who knows someone who can ship me a single unit at a reasonable > price, please let me know (off-list, ok). > > > > Thanks, > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Fri Jan 12 10:51:24 2024 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2024 07:51:24 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Odd battery charging behavior with Outback inverters In-Reply-To: References: <24871ffdeea48d70dcd136d582097e9b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Good Morning Everyone, The graphs look like something is bypassing the absorb timers. I haven't been at Outback for a long time now, but from my experience, this can be caused by the FNDC, end amps programming of the FM Controllers, or the operating mode of the inverter. On the FM Charge Controllers: In the Advanced menus are the End Amps settings; this should be programmed to about .5 to 1% of the battery bank capacity at the most. If the absorb timers are over 4 hours, I would defeat this setting altogether, especially if they charge lead batteries. The issue with this setting is most lead manufacturers want the current going into the battery under charge to fall to less than 2-3% for 60 mins. The timer in the FM's is only 3 mins and is not programmable. On the FNDC: Still, to this day, I find FNDC installations that are not correctly programmed, even from experienced installers. It does not help that the FNDC was a very misunderstood product. The FNDC has 5 Settings that Matter: Battery Capacity, End Amps, Parameters Met Time, Parameters Met Voltage, and Battery Charge Factor%. Battery Capascity = C20 Battery Capascity. End Amp 2-3% of the C20 rate The settings that trip up most are met voltage, Met Time, and BCF%. The Met time for FLA, AGM, and GEL should be 45 to 60 mins. For LFP, it should be around 30 mins. It could be 45 to 60 minutes if you have over three parallel strings of LFP batteries. A bit longer will allow for better balancing between strings. Parameters Met Voltage should be one step under the target absorb voltage. So, if you charge 59.2, this should be set to 58.8. As for the Mode of the inverter, if the inverter is attempting to support or grid sell, these modes will shorten the charging and bypass the Absrob timers depending on how low the battery voltage dropped and for how long. In the old days, this used to be on only the GT-version inverters; now, it's present in all of them. It just depends on what mode the inverter is programmed to operate in. [image: image.png] For a straight off-grid system, generator mode is the correct mode, but it's been a while, and I would have to check the OB documentation as to what mode to operate in. Contact me offlist or call me, and maybe I can better explain it... I do have an optics account (Steve at surrette.com). If you invite me to view your setup, I may be able to take a look and help find the setting(s) causing this, but I would look first for the above-mentioned issues. One last thing: it could be a failing battery cell or connection issue, as this would also trigger end amps terminations early. The problem with this is you have a lot of installs doing the same thing, so this is a settings issue rather than failing cells. Hope this helps! Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Fri, Jan 12, 2024 at 4:33 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > William, > > This is a very timely question, I have been seeing the same thing. I also > don't allow any Flexnet interference in charging. I went to investigate a > site yesterday and figured this one out. > > It turned out that the Flexnet was uncalibrated by about 1V on the low > side. This was a Lithium site and so there was not significant absorb time > and that 1 V is very significant. The solar controller and Radian were > calibrated properly so it looked on Optics as though we were never getting > full but we were. > > The Flexnet is a real mixed bag. Its great to have the info but I don't > like the difficulty of calibration (loose nuts in the casing) and that the > Mate defaults to using its voltage meter. We try to calibrate these as > closely as possible. > > One thing I've noticed when I'm following up others work is that the > majority have incorrectly wired/programmed Flexnet DC. They will not have > the appropriate shunts activated and so the system constantly reads 100%. > A lot of these systems are installed using Outback prewired panels (Im not > sure who builds these). > > If your customer is savvy, you can have them unplug the cable from the Hub > that feeds the Flexnet. If the voltage changes significantly, then the > calibration could be the issue. > > Please keep us in the loop on what you are finding. > > On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 9:46 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Friends: >> >> >> >> I got a call from a client inquiring as to why his generator was starting >> every morning, even though no one was staying at the property and there was >> decent, albeit winter, sunshine. >> >> >> >> While looking into it I noticed that when his generator did run the >> battery voltage did not stay at absorb level for the prescribed time period >> as set in the battery charging settings. >> >> >> >> Outback tech support said that, lacking a better theory, it might be >> possible the FNDC could be affecting the charge settings. I do not allow >> FNDCs to control generator run, so this seemed unlikely. However I had no >> better idea and am being not much of a fan of the FNDC, I agreed to unplug >> it. There was no change in the generator charging voltage profile made by >> this. >> >> >> >> I got curiouser and started looking at other Outback sites. All of my >> normal Outback off-grid systems with both Radian and VFX inverters are >> exhibiting the same problem. >> >> >> >> I know this is kind of in the weeds, but that is what we are here for, >> right? I made a little web page about this issue to easily share >> information and graphics. Here is the link >> >> . >> >> >> >> This issue has serious implications for my clients. The charging >> profiles seen are not good for these batteries. Eventually the >> deficiencies in the charging regime will shorten the life spans of very >> expensive batteries. >> >> >> >> I am not very informed about lithium batteries, but I would be interested >> if this profile is bad or not for lithium batteries. >> >> >> >> I am hoping this is not a design or programming defect. I would be >> interested in any shared experience. Maybe some of you could glance at >> your Optics displays and see if you are seeing the same thing. All input >> is very much appreciated. >> >> >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 66216 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Fri Jan 12 10:56:22 2024 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2024 10:56:22 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiPO 48V, 60ah Battery In-Reply-To: References: <001701da455f$5e0645d0$1a12d170$@mindspring.com> <002c01da4563$86d3fe90$947bfbb0$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <004301da456f$e4498200$acdc8600$@mindspring.com> Have fun, looks promising From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, January 12, 2024 10:24 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jason Szumlanski Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] LiPO 48V, 60ah Battery I found a 4U wall mount rack on Amazon that looks like it will carry the weight. I'm going to give it a try. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Fri, Jan 12, 2024 at 9:43 AM Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches > wrote: Jason Have installed the EG4 batteries in a non-rack mount when they were out of racks. Inexpensive metal racks from Home Depot or Lowes ( husky racks) could hold 4 to 6 batteries. A shelf is possible but the battery weighs 100+ lbs. They now have a wall mount system though it is roughly 3x the power and performance you need. Just some thoughts peter From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, January 12, 2024 9:02 AM To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Jason Szumlanski > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] LiPO 48V, 60ah Battery I definitely considered this, but the EG4 100aH batteries are rack mount. I need to wall-mount a battery or put it on a small shelf. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Fri, Jan 12, 2024 at 8:58 AM Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches > wrote: Jason You might want to look at the EG4 battery. They are a bit higher on the AH but good batteries and reasonably priced Peter Giroux American Solar From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, January 12, 2024 8:29 AM To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Jason Szumlanski > Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiPO 48V, 60ah Battery I'm looking for a single battery meeting these specs to pair with an EG4 inverter for off-grid use. Anyone who knows someone who can ship me a single unit at a reasonable price, please let me know (off-list, ok). Thanks, Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jan 12 11:49:27 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2024 09:49:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Odd battery charging behavior with Outback inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5195061D-3D31-4412-B7A1-2312633C8C5C@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Jan 12 12:38:35 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2024 09:38:35 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Odd battery charging behavior with Outback inverters In-Reply-To: <5195061D-3D31-4412-B7A1-2312633C8C5C@gmail.com> References: <5195061D-3D31-4412-B7A1-2312633C8C5C@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay: Thanks for the reply. My understanding is that a new bulk process begins every time AC power is reapplied. Rebulk only applies if AC power is maintained after absorption completes. That’s not what is happening here. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Fri, Jan 12, 2024 at 8:50 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > There is or was a setting in the mate 3/s that the rebulk volts has a > trigger. If the voltage doesn’t get below it it won’t charge (absorb) > properly. Fix is to set the rebulk up higher than the charge volts > > I don’t know if that’s your issue or not but I have fixed this on > systems. > > Jay > > > On Jan 12, 2024, at 8:52 AM, Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Good Morning Everyone, > > The graphs look like something is bypassing the absorb timers. I haven't > been at Outback for a long time now, but from my experience, this can be > caused by the FNDC, end amps programming of the FM Controllers, or the > operating mode of the inverter. > > On the FM Charge Controllers: > > In the Advanced menus are the End Amps settings; this should be programmed > to about .5 to 1% of the battery bank capacity at the most. If the absorb > timers are over 4 hours, I would defeat this setting altogether, especially > if they charge lead batteries. The issue with this setting is most lead > manufacturers want the current going into the battery under charge to fall > to less than 2-3% for 60 mins. The timer in the FM's is only 3 mins and > is not programmable. > > On the FNDC: > > Still, to this day, I find FNDC installations that are not correctly > programmed, even from experienced installers. It does not help that the > FNDC was a very misunderstood product. > > The FNDC has 5 Settings that Matter: Battery Capacity, End Amps, > Parameters Met Time, Parameters Met Voltage, and Battery Charge Factor%. > > Battery Capascity = C20 Battery Capascity. > End Amp 2-3% of the C20 rate > > The settings that trip up most are met voltage, Met Time, and BCF%. The > Met time for FLA, AGM, and GEL should be 45 to 60 mins. For LFP, it should > be around 30 mins. It could be 45 to 60 minutes if you have over three > parallel strings of LFP batteries. A bit longer will allow for better > balancing between strings. > > Parameters Met Voltage should be one step under the target > absorb voltage. So, if you charge 59.2, this should be set to 58.8. > > As for the Mode of the inverter, if the inverter is attempting to support > or grid sell, these modes will shorten the charging and bypass the Absrob > timers depending on how low the battery voltage dropped and for how long. > In the old days, this used to be on only the GT-version inverters; now, > it's present in all of them. It just depends on what mode the inverter is > programmed to operate in. > > > > > For a straight off-grid system, generator mode is the correct mode, but > it's been a while, and I would have to check the OB documentation as to > what mode to operate in. > > Contact me offlist or call me, and maybe I can better explain it... > > I do have an optics account (Steve at surrette.com). If you invite me to > view your setup, I may be able to take a look and help find the setting(s) > causing this, but I would look first for the above-mentioned issues. > > One last thing: it could be a failing battery cell or connection issue, as > this would also trigger end amps terminations early. The problem with this > is you have a lot of installs doing the same thing, so this is a settings > issue rather than failing cells. > > Hope this helps! > > > > > > > > > > > Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager > t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 > f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for > the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged > material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the > taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If > you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or > destroy this message and all copies. > ------------------------------ > > > On Fri, Jan 12, 2024 at 4:33 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> William, >> >> This is a very timely question, I have been seeing the same thing. I >> also don't allow any Flexnet interference in charging. I went to >> investigate a site yesterday and figured this one out. >> >> It turned out that the Flexnet was uncalibrated by about 1V on the low >> side. This was a Lithium site and so there was not significant absorb time >> and that 1 V is very significant. The solar controller and Radian were >> calibrated properly so it looked on Optics as though we were never getting >> full but we were. >> >> The Flexnet is a real mixed bag. Its great to have the info but I don't >> like the difficulty of calibration (loose nuts in the casing) and that the >> Mate defaults to using its voltage meter. We try to calibrate these as >> closely as possible. >> >> One thing I've noticed when I'm following up others work is that the >> majority have incorrectly wired/programmed Flexnet DC. They will not have >> the appropriate shunts activated and so the system constantly reads 100%. >> A lot of these systems are installed using Outback prewired panels (Im not >> sure who builds these). >> >> If your customer is savvy, you can have them unplug the cable from the >> Hub that feeds the Flexnet. If the voltage changes significantly, then the >> calibration could be the issue. >> >> Please keep us in the loop on what you are finding. >> >> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 9:46 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Friends: >>> >>> >>> >>> I got a call from a client inquiring as to why his generator was >>> starting every morning, even though no one was staying at the property and >>> there was decent, albeit winter, sunshine. >>> >>> >>> >>> While looking into it I noticed that when his generator did run the >>> battery voltage did not stay at absorb level for the prescribed time period >>> as set in the battery charging settings. >>> >>> >>> >>> Outback tech support said that, lacking a better theory, it might be >>> possible the FNDC could be affecting the charge settings. I do not allow >>> FNDCs to control generator run, so this seemed unlikely. However I had no >>> better idea and am being not much of a fan of the FNDC, I agreed to unplug >>> it. There was no change in the generator charging voltage profile made by >>> this. >>> >>> >>> >>> I got curiouser and started looking at other Outback sites. All of my >>> normal Outback off-grid systems with both Radian and VFX inverters are >>> exhibiting the same problem. >>> >>> >>> >>> I know this is kind of in the weeds, but that is what we are here for, >>> right? I made a little web page about this issue to easily share >>> information and graphics. Here is the link >>> >>> . >>> >>> >>> >>> This issue has serious implications for my clients. The charging >>> profiles seen are not good for these batteries. Eventually the >>> deficiencies in the charging regime will shorten the life spans of very >>> expensive batteries. >>> >>> >>> >>> I am not very informed about lithium batteries, but I would be >>> interested if this profile is bad or not for lithium batteries. >>> >>> >>> >>> I am hoping this is not a design or programming defect. I would be >>> interested in any shared experience. Maybe some of you could glance at >>> your Optics displays and see if you are seeing the same thing. All input >>> is very much appreciated. >>> >>> >>> >>> William Miller >>> >>> >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rich at solartechvt.com Fri Jan 12 16:13:14 2024 From: rich at solartechvt.com (Richard Nicol) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2024 16:13:14 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Odd battery charging behavior with Outback inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3BDB0681-D19F-4B44-8E0E-CDB349381898@solartechvt.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Jan 13 10:05:16 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2024 08:05:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol ark 15kw In-Reply-To: <3BDB0681-D19F-4B44-8E0E-CDB349381898@solartechvt.com> References: <3BDB0681-D19F-4B44-8E0E-CDB349381898@solartechvt.com> Message-ID: <6424F9B9-563A-4313-A08F-0A28F5218F29@gmail.com> HI All, I have some sol ark 15 questions, and I’m sure someone out there has the answer as I can’t seem to find it in their literature How much can it output AC with solar: offgrid and ongrid in sell back mode. What I read was 15kw, but I can’t figure out if thats both on/off grid or not? thanks in advance Jay From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Jan 13 10:59:09 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2024 10:59:09 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol ark 15kw In-Reply-To: <6424F9B9-563A-4313-A08F-0A28F5218F29@gmail.com> References: <3BDB0681-D19F-4B44-8E0E-CDB349381898@solartechvt.com> <6424F9B9-563A-4313-A08F-0A28F5218F29@gmail.com> Message-ID: Off grid the limit is 12kW of PV to the loads/battery. You can better this by making some of the PV AC Coupled on the load side or GEN input. Of course, you can AC couple all of the PV, but they do not recommend that. Still, I have done this successfully. I'm not a fan of having both DC and AC Coupled PV simultaneously. It just complicates things, not the least of which is rapid shutdown and utility disconnect requirements. On grid it can output 15kW of the DC coupled PV to the grid/loads. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Sat, Jan 13, 2024 at 10:05 AM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > HI All, > > I have some sol ark 15 questions, and I’m sure someone out there has the > answer as I can’t seem to find it in their literature > > How much can it output AC with solar: offgrid and ongrid in sell back > mode. > > What I read was 15kw, but I can’t figure out if thats both on/off grid or > not? > > thanks in advance > > Jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sat Jan 13 11:47:15 2024 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2024 11:47:15 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: Cantilevered array In-Reply-To: <8b513b3fc294d5ef8a501d7d4408d17b@redwoodalliance.org> References: <8b513b3fc294d5ef8a501d7d4408d17b@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <07e91a759df72a30808525ed903a85da@redwoodalliance.org> Here is a larger snip of the situation. Label says overhang from upper roof. _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ --- On 2024-01-12 07:29, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > Are you sure that's what you're looking at? To me, that looks like there was an addition made to the house, and maybe it's a multi-pitch roof. That lower part might be a covered wrap-around porch. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 5:59 PM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> I was given a drawing, produced by a very large solar company, showing the array cantilevered over the edge of the roof by several feet. >> >> Notice how the array hangs out over the lawn for several feet. Is there anyway that this is a legitimate way to mount modules? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> _Drake Chamberlin_ >> >> _Athens Electric LLC_ >> >> _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ >> >> _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ >> >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 3ac1d9bb.png Type: image/png Size: 324637 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: a21c5a3d.png Type: image/png Size: 175783 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Jan 13 12:42:45 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2024 09:42:45 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: Cantilevered array Message-ID: Drake My earlier reply may have been a bit facetious. What I meant by it was that big-box solar contractors can be lazy when it comes to solar design. They will rely totally on satellite imagery and not check the design on the ground. This is how you get solar proposed for shaded areas, where skylights and roof vents are located, or overhanging thin air. This may be what is happening in the image you shared. What is unique here is someone actually specified overhanging panels. Looking more closely at the image, a roof outline is shown but it is not clear that the outline is actually situated over a building. It almost looks like there is landscaped area inside the outline. The solution of course is to get on out there, measure the roof and any obstructions and analyze the shading. I use the Sun Seeker app for IOS for the shading analysis. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Saturday, January 13, 2024 8:47 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: Cantilevered array Here is a larger snip of the situation. [image: cid:image001.png at 01DA4604.457F8710] Label says overhang from upper roof. *Drake Chamberlin* *Athens Electric LLC* *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810* *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* --- On 2024-01-12 07:29, Jason Szumlanski wrote: Are you sure that's what you're looking at? To me, that looks like there was an addition made to the house, and maybe it's a multi-pitch roof. That lower part might be a covered wrap-around porch. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 5:59 PM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: I was given a drawing, produced by a very large solar company, showing the array cantilevered over the edge of the roof by several feet. [image: cid:image002.png at 01DA4604.457F8710] Notice how the array hangs out over the lawn for several feet. Is there anyway that this is a legitimate way to mount modules? Thanks, Drake *Drake Chamberlin* *Athens Electric LLC* *Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810* *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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URL: From andrew at greenwired.com Wed Jan 17 16:44:02 2024 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew Perkins) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2024 13:44:02 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for central CA off-grid installer Message-ID: <18d19619843.bbbac0252546422.588328137932501676@greenwired.com> Looking for someone to pass a client off to to install some PLP ground and equipment mounts for 12 cell tower jobs. All located in Central CA. Its unfortunatly out of my territory. Let me know off thread if interested.  Andrew Perkins Greenwired Store Manager/Service Tech​ P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 http://www.greenwired.com http://qr.codes/qTa1Mh -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1596050015677007_1701277005.png Type: image/png Size: 16298 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1667767630048000_655845146.png Type: image/png Size: 56703 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jan 18 10:42:36 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2024 10:42:36 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Recommendation on DC Breaker Message-ID: I am installing an EG4 off-grid 3k inverter for the first time, and the manual requires a DC circuit breaker on the PV input. It will be a small PV array with adjusted max Voc around 280V @ Isc 10.6A. I'm looking for a cost-effective DC breaker and enclosure for this purpose. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jan 18 10:47:17 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2024 08:47:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Recommendation on DC Breaker In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I’d use an IMO disconnect as you don’t have any current limitations. I think sometimes things get lost in translation. Jay > On Jan 18, 2024, at 8:43 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > I am installing an EG4 off-grid 3k inverter for the first time, and the manual requires a DC circuit breaker on the PV input. It will be a small PV array with adjusted max Voc around 280V @ Isc 10.6A. > > I'm looking for a cost-effective DC breaker and enclosure for this purpose. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jan 18 10:48:23 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2024 10:48:23 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Recommendation on DC Breaker In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Correction: That was unadjusted Voc. Temperature-adjusted Voc is 316V. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Thu, Jan 18, 2024 at 10:42 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I am installing an EG4 off-grid 3k inverter for the first time, and the > manual requires a DC circuit breaker on the PV input. It will be a small PV > array with adjusted max Voc around 280V @ Isc 10.6A. > > I'm looking for a cost-effective DC breaker and enclosure for this purpose. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Jan 18 10:50:52 2024 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2024 07:50:52 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Recommendation on DC Breaker In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've used Midnite DC combiners in the past with good results. Since you are over 150 VDC, I believe you'd need to select the 1000 VDC fuse holder(s) for your application: https://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=78&productCat_ID=9&sortOrder=4&act=p August On Thu, Jan 18, 2024 at 7:43 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I am installing an EG4 off-grid 3k inverter for the first time, and the > manual requires a DC circuit breaker on the PV input. It will be a small PV > array with adjusted max Voc around 280V @ Isc 10.6A. > > I'm looking for a cost-effective DC breaker and enclosure for this purpose. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From iesbatteries at gmail.com Thu Jan 18 10:53:56 2024 From: iesbatteries at gmail.com (Daryl DeJoy) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2024 10:53:56 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Recommendation on DC Breaker In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jay, I regularly use 1000 vdc rated, 20a breakers. You can buy them on Amazon. They are din rail mount. 1,2 or 4 pole. Daryl On Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 10:51 AM August Goers via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I've used Midnite DC combiners in the past with good results. Since you > are over 150 VDC, I believe you'd need to select the 1000 VDC fuse > holder(s) for your application: > > > https://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=78&productCat_ID=9&sortOrder=4&act=p > > August > > > On Thu, Jan 18, 2024 at 7:43 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I am installing an EG4 off-grid 3k inverter for the first time, and the >> manual requires a DC circuit breaker on the PV input. It will be a small PV >> array with adjusted max Voc around 280V @ Isc 10.6A. >> >> I'm looking for a cost-effective DC breaker and enclosure for this >> purpose. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jan 18 10:59:14 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2024 10:59:14 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Recommendation on DC Breaker In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, all, for the quick recommendations. I believe an isolator like the IMO is technically all that is needed since it is a current limited circuit and OCPD shouldn't be required, but the manual calls for a circuit breaker. That is probably just a semantics issue. On the other hand, the 1000V DIN rail breakers on Amazon are a dead cheap option and worth considering, too. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Jan 18, 2024 at 10:48 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I’d use an IMO disconnect as you don’t have any current limitations. > > I think sometimes things get lost in translation. > > Jay > > > > On Jan 18, 2024, at 8:43 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > I am installing an EG4 off-grid 3k inverter for the first time, and the > manual requires a DC circuit breaker on the PV input. It will be a small PV > array with adjusted max Voc around 280V @ Isc 10.6A. > > I'm looking for a cost-effective DC breaker and enclosure for this purpose. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Thu Jan 18 12:49:34 2024 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2024 09:49:34 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Recommendation on DC Breaker In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <289D5850-9CE2-446A-8DF3-00EBCD733FAA@me.com> The Siemens HNF361RPV is worth looking into. Quite affordable and reliable build quality without having to resort to Amazon. It first appears that it’s limit is 250 vdc but the footnotes indicate 600 once going deeper into the details. Obviously not a fuse though. Nick > On Jan 18, 2024, at 7:59 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Thanks, all, for the quick recommendations. I believe an isolator like the IMO is technically all that is needed since it is a current limited circuit and OCPD shouldn't be required, but the manual calls for a circuit breaker. That is probably just a semantics issue. > > On the other hand, the 1000V DIN rail breakers on Amazon are a dead cheap option and worth considering, too. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Thu, Jan 18, 2024 at 10:48 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > I’d use an IMO disconnect as you don’t have any current limitations. > > I think sometimes things get lost in translation. > > Jay > > > >> On Jan 18, 2024, at 8:43 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> >>  >> I am installing an EG4 off-grid 3k inverter for the first time, and the manual requires a DC circuit breaker on the PV input. It will be a small PV array with adjusted max Voc around 280V @ Isc 10.6A. >> >> I'm looking for a cost-effective DC breaker and enclosure for this purpose. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Jan 18 14:39:15 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2024 11:39:15 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Recommendation on DC Breaker/Musings on PV disconnecting/Tigo warning Message-ID: Friends: I am not familiar with the inverter cited and I am not going to take the time to research it. There are too many options this day to keep up! If this system requires load disconnecting, a touch safe fuse holder is not the correct device. They are not rated for load break. A work-around is to plainly indicate the inverter AC disconnect should be activated or the inverter turned off before opening the fuse disconnect. Also, please consider not shopping at Amazon. They have a terrible record regarding employee safety. PV-Cables carries this fuse holder at a competitive price and they are great people to work with. Here is a link: https://pv-cables.com/product/littelfuse-spf-solarfuse-holder/. There are many other solar vendors that have these and that could use your shopping dollars. Below are some related subjects I have been pondering: RSS as PV disconnecting means: I have been whining at great length about having to install RSS MLPE on off-grid installations. My most pathetic whining has been about having to install these on ground-mount arrays. My understanding is that RSS is supposed to protect fire fighters when they respond to structure fires. How does an RSS system on a ground mount even apply here? However, I do find it handy to have an easy way to de-energize PV circuits so I can safely work in combiners and recombiners. This makes me wonder: Is module level RSS equipment suitable to act as PV disconnecting means? Tigo Transmitter-Where should it be installed? And a warning: I like to be able to measure PV circuits when connected and disconnected. If the Tigo RSS transmitter donut is installed down-stream of the PV disconnecting means then open circuit measurements are not possible. If you open the disconnect, the keep-alive signal goes away and you can’t measure the PV string. I got a surprise when doing just this a few days ago. I have two rows of PV racks and a combiner on each row. If I want injection of Tigo keep-alive signal upstream of the combiner breakers, I need to install a transmitter in both combiners. I looped the feeders to the far combiner through the near combiner. The Tigo donut in the near combiner was near those looped feeders and induced enough signal in the feeders that the RSS MLPE in the next rack were switched on. I got a nasty 200 VDC shock out of the deal. See photo below. Automatic RSS: As noted above, everything I have read about RSS is that it is designed for the safety of fire fighters. RSS is a manually activated system. Someone needs to find and push or twist the disconnect button. If this is not done the RSS provides no protection. Why could we not require AFCI and GFDI equipped inverters and charge controllers to provide a contact closure in case of either fault that could easily be wired into the RSS system to activate the RSS automatically? Seems like a no-brainer to me. True PV safety for fire fighters and the public: I was watching a webinar on UL 3741 recently. In it the presenter early on makes the claim that PV systems are “inherently safe” (8:45 in the video). I think this is wrong. String PV systems are inherently *unsafe*, for two reasons: 1. PV panels have no off switch. If the sun is shining the panels are creating power, at potentially fatal levels. 2. PV panels cannot trip OCPD. PV panels are finite in ampacity and we need the OCPD to be rated at above the available current. In case of a fault an AFCI or GFDI equipped inverter or charge controller can detect those faults and shut off, but the fault still exists and is still being fed power. These concerns apply to PV string systems. Micro-inverter systems could be argued as being inherently safe. To get to true PV safety, we need to find a way to shut off power at the source. If we can trigger MLPE RSS to shut off in the case of detectable faults, we are much closer to the holy grail of true safety. The interconnection of AFCI and GFDI inverters and charge controllers with RSS is one way to achieve this goal. This should be easy to achieve-- it requires only a contact closure be built into the electronics. Outback’s FM100 charge controllers have a contact closure that can be programmed to open in the case of an error, but not the errors we need. So close… Thinking this through further, why not build AFCI and GFDI protection right into MLPE electronics? That way in the case of a fault the power is shut off at the source. Maybe Solar Edge does this already. Does anyone know? UL3741: I have just started studying UL 3741. From what I have learned so far, I am not convinced this is the right direction. For one, the standard upgrades the allowed voltage exposure to 160 VDC. Number two, the standard is written only to protect fire fighters. This leaves out protecting the public. This includes kids climbing on a ground mount or using a piece of copper pipe to retrieve a Frisbee from under a PV array, or a homeowner falling into a PV array while hanging holiday decorations on a dormer-- to name just a few scenarios. Number three, the goal is to eliminate MLPE. Until PV panels come with an accessible off switch, we need MLPE. We cannot have power sources so ubiquitous to our lives that can’t be turned off. As an industry, I think we have not prioritized PV safety nearly as much as the industry does for regular electric equipment safety. If you don’t believe me, try running conductors to a roof-top air conditioning unit without conduit protection and see what your inspector thinks about that. I am interested in thoughts any of you may have on the above topics. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Nick A Lucchese via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Thursday, January 18, 2024 9:50 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Nick A Lucchese *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Recommendation on DC Breaker The Siemens HNF361RPV is worth looking into. Quite affordable and reliable build quality without having to resort to Amazon. It first appears that it’s limit is 250 vdc but the footnotes indicate 600 once going deeper into the details. Obviously not a fuse though. Nick On Jan 18, 2024, at 7:59 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Thanks, all, for the quick recommendations. I believe an isolator like the IMO is technically all that is needed since it is a current limited circuit and OCPD shouldn't be required, but the manual calls for a circuit breaker. That is probably just a semantics issue. On the other hand, the 1000V DIN rail breakers on Amazon are a dead cheap option and worth considering, too. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Jan 18, 2024 at 10:48 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: I’d use an IMO disconnect as you don’t have any current limitations. I think sometimes things get lost in translation. Jay On Jan 18, 2024, at 8:43 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:  I am installing an EG4 off-grid 3k inverter for the first time, and the manual requires a DC circuit breaker on the PV input. It will be a small PV array with adjusted max Voc around 280V @ Isc 10.6A. I'm looking for a cost-effective DC breaker and enclosure for this purpose. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 54605 bytes Desc: not available URL: From iesbatteries at gmail.com Thu Jan 18 15:01:35 2024 From: iesbatteries at gmail.com (Daryl DeJoy) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2024 15:01:35 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Recommendation on DC Breaker/Musings on PV disconnecting/Tigo warning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you William, I stock those breakers in large numbers and purchase them from the manufacturer. We're it not that I leave in 10 hours for the rest of the winter I would have just sent a bunch to Jay, but time is of the essence. That is the only reason for the (poor) recommendation. Best, Daryl On Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 2:57 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > > > I am not familiar with the inverter cited and I am not going to take the > time to research it. There are too many options this day to keep up! > > > > If this system requires load disconnecting, a touch safe fuse holder is > not the correct device. They are not rated for load break. A work-around > is to plainly indicate the inverter AC disconnect should be activated or > the inverter turned off before opening the fuse disconnect. > > > > Also, please consider not shopping at Amazon. They have a terrible record > regarding employee safety. PV-Cables carries this fuse holder at a > competitive price and they are great people to work with. Here is a link: > https://pv-cables.com/product/littelfuse-spf-solarfuse-holder/. There > are many other solar vendors that have these and that could use your > shopping dollars. > > > > Below are some related subjects I have been pondering: > > > > RSS as PV disconnecting means: > > > > I have been whining at great length about having to install RSS MLPE on > off-grid installations. My most pathetic whining has been about having to > install these on ground-mount arrays. My understanding is that RSS is > supposed to protect fire fighters when they respond to structure fires. > How does an RSS system on a ground mount even apply here? > > > > However, I do find it handy to have an easy way to de-energize PV circuits > so I can safely work in combiners and recombiners. This makes me wonder: > Is module level RSS equipment suitable to act as PV disconnecting means? > > > > Tigo Transmitter-Where should it be installed? And a warning: > > > > I like to be able to measure PV circuits when connected and disconnected. > If the Tigo RSS transmitter donut is installed down-stream of the PV > disconnecting means then open circuit measurements are not possible. If > you open the disconnect, the keep-alive signal goes away and you can’t > measure the PV string. > > > > I got a surprise when doing just this a few days ago. I have two rows of > PV racks and a combiner on each row. If I want injection of Tigo > keep-alive signal upstream of the combiner breakers, I need to install a > transmitter in both combiners. I looped the feeders to the far combiner > through the near combiner. The Tigo donut in the near combiner was near > those looped feeders and induced enough signal in the feeders that the RSS > MLPE in the next rack were switched on. I got a nasty 200 VDC shock out of > the deal. See photo below. > > > > > > Automatic RSS: > > > > As noted above, everything I have read about RSS is that it is designed > for the safety of fire fighters. RSS is a manually activated system. > Someone needs to find and push or twist the disconnect button. If this is > not done the RSS provides no protection. Why could we not require AFCI and > GFDI equipped inverters and charge controllers to provide a contact closure > in case of either fault that could easily be wired into the RSS system to > activate the RSS automatically? Seems like a no-brainer to me. > > > > True PV safety for fire fighters and the public: > > > > I was watching a webinar > > on UL 3741 recently. In it the presenter early on makes the claim that PV > systems are “inherently safe” (8:45 in the video). I think this is wrong. > String PV systems are inherently *unsafe*, for two reasons: 1. PV panels > have no off switch. If the sun is shining the panels are creating power, > at potentially fatal levels. 2. PV panels cannot trip OCPD. PV panels are > finite in ampacity and we need the OCPD to be rated at above the available > current. In case of a fault an AFCI or GFDI equipped inverter or charge > controller can detect those faults and shut off, but the fault still exists > and is still being fed power. These concerns apply to PV string systems. > Micro-inverter systems could be argued as being inherently safe. > > > > To get to true PV safety, we need to find a way to shut off power at the > source. If we can trigger MLPE RSS to shut off in the case of detectable > faults, we are much closer to the holy grail of true safety. > > > > The interconnection of AFCI and GFDI inverters and charge controllers with > RSS is one way to achieve this goal. This should be easy to achieve-- it > requires only a contact closure be built into the electronics. Outback’s > FM100 charge controllers have a contact closure that can be programmed to > open in the case of an error, but not the errors we need. So close… > > > > Thinking this through further, why not build AFCI and GFDI protection > right into MLPE electronics? That way in the case of a fault the power is > shut off at the source. Maybe Solar Edge does this already. Does anyone > know? > > > > UL3741: > > > > I have just started studying UL 3741. From what I have learned so far, I > am not convinced this is the right direction. For one, the standard > upgrades the allowed voltage exposure to 160 VDC. Number two, the standard > is written only to protect fire fighters. This leaves out protecting the > public. This includes kids climbing on a ground mount or using a piece of > copper pipe to retrieve a Frisbee from under a PV array, or a homeowner > falling into a PV array while hanging holiday decorations on a dormer-- to > name just a few scenarios. Number three, the goal is to eliminate MLPE. > Until PV panels come with an accessible off switch, we need MLPE. We > cannot have power sources so ubiquitous to our lives that can’t be turned > off. > > > > As an industry, I think we have not prioritized PV safety nearly as much > as the industry does for regular electric equipment safety. If you don’t > believe me, try running conductors to a roof-top air conditioning unit > without conduit protection and see what your inspector thinks about that. > > > > I am interested in thoughts any of you may have on the above topics. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Nick A Lucchese via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Thursday, January 18, 2024 9:50 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Nick A Lucchese > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Recommendation on DC Breaker > > > > The Siemens HNF361RPV is worth looking into. Quite affordable and reliable > build quality without having to resort to Amazon. It first appears that > it’s limit is 250 vdc but the footnotes indicate 600 once going deeper into > the details. Obviously not a fuse though. > > > > Nick > > > > > > > > On Jan 18, 2024, at 7:59 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > > Thanks, all, for the quick recommendations. I believe an isolator like the > IMO is technically all that is needed since it is a current limited circuit > and OCPD shouldn't be required, but the manual calls for a circuit breaker. > That is probably just a semantics issue. > > > > On the other hand, the 1000V DIN rail breakers on Amazon are a dead cheap > option and worth considering, too. > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 18, 2024 at 10:48 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > I’d use an IMO disconnect as you don’t have any current limitations. > > > > I think sometimes things get lost in translation. > > > > Jay > > > > > > > > On Jan 18, 2024, at 8:43 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > I am installing an EG4 off-grid 3k inverter for the first time, and the > manual requires a DC circuit breaker on the PV input. It will be a small PV > array with adjusted max Voc around 280V @ Isc 10.6A. > > > > I'm looking for a cost-effective DC breaker and enclosure for this purpose. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 54605 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Jan 18 18:58:28 2024 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2024 15:58:28 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Recommendation on DC Breaker In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches, Jason Midnight pv2 by panel, holds two breakers or as l recall fuse holders rated for 600 vdc Jerry On Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 7:43 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I am installing an EG4 off-grid 3k inverter for the first time, and the > manual requires a DC circuit breaker on the PV input. It will be a small PV > array with adjusted max Voc around 280V @ Isc 10.6A. > > I'm looking for a cost-effective DC breaker and enclosure for this purpose. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Fri Jan 19 15:06:52 2024 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2024 15:06:52 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: Cantilevered array In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've done a fair amount of roof mounted solar structural compliance, and I would say that the cantilevered design looks like a disaster waiting to happen. You could not use conventional solar racking products.  Chris On 1/13/2024 12:42 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Drake > > My earlier reply may have been a bit facetious.  What I meant by it > was that big-box solar contractors can be lazy when it comes to solar > design.  They will rely totally on satellite imagery and not check the > design on the ground.  This is how you get solar proposed for shaded > areas, where skylights and roof vents are located, or overhanging thin > air.  This may be what is happening in the image you shared. > > What is unique here is someone actually specified overhanging panels.  > Looking more closely at the image, a roof outline is shown but it is > not clear that the outline is actually situated over a building.  It > almost looks like there is landscaped area inside the outline. > > The solution of course is to get on out there, measure the roof and > any obstructions and analyze the shading.  I use the Sun Seeker > > app for IOS for the shading analysis. > > William > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Saturday, January 13, 2024 8:47 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: Cantilevered array > > ** > > > > ** > > > > ** > > > > ** > > > > Here is a larger snip of the situation. > > mailbox:///C:/Users/Chris%20Warfel/AppData/Roaming/Thunderbird/Profiles/lgcjo68n.default-release/Mail/Local%20Folders/WRENCHES?number=4062&header=quotebody&part=1.1.2&filename=image001.png > > Label says overhang from upper roof. > > /Drake Chamberlin/ > > /Athens Electric LLC/ > > /Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810/ > > /NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional/ > > --- > > On 2024-01-12 07:29, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > Are you sure that's what you're looking at? To me, that looks like > there was an addition made to the house, and maybe it's a > multi-pitch roof. That lower part might be a covered wrap-around > porch. > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 5:59 PM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > I was given a drawing, produced by a very large solar company, > showing the array cantilevered over the edge of the roof by > several feet. > > mailbox:///C:/Users/Chris%20Warfel/AppData/Roaming/Thunderbird/Profiles/lgcjo68n.default-release/Mail/Local%20Folders/WRENCHES?number=4062&header=quotebody&part=1.1.3&filename=image002.png > > Notice how the array hangs out over the lawn for several feet. > Is there anyway that this is a legitimate way to mount modules? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > /Drake Chamberlin/ > > /Athens Electric LLC/ > > /Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810/ > > /NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional/ > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't > work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > --             Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 324637 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 175783 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/vcard Size: 203 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sat Jan 20 10:57:31 2024 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 10:57:31 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: Cantilevered array In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you for the concise answer. I have told the potential client that they have not been provided with a workable design for their system. Unfortunately, I think the prestige of the big companies creates a sense of competence that may not be justified. --- On 2024-01-19 15:06, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches wrote: > I've done a fair amount of roof mounted solar structural compliance, and I would say that the cantilevered design looks like a disaster waiting to happen. You could not use conventional solar racking products. Chris > > On 1/13/2024 12:42 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Drake > > My earlier reply may have been a bit facetious. What I meant by it was that big-box solar contractors can be lazy when it comes to solar design. They will rely totally on satellite imagery and not check the design on the ground. This is how you get solar proposed for shaded areas, where skylights and roof vents are located, or overhanging thin air. This may be what is happening in the image you shared. > > What is unique here is someone actually specified overhanging panels. Looking more closely at the image, a roof outline is shown but it is not clear that the outline is actually situated over a building. It almost looks like there is landscaped area inside the outline. > > The solution of course is to get on out there, measure the roof and any obstructions and analyze the shading. I use the Sun Seeker [1] app for IOS for the shading analysis. > > William > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com [2] > > CA Lic. 773985 > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches > Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2024 8:47 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: Cantilevered array > > Here is a larger snip of the situation. > > Label says overhang from upper roof. > > _Drake Chamberlin_ > > _Athens Electric LLC_ > > _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ > > _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ > > --- > > On 2024-01-12 07:29, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > Are you sure that's what you're looking at? To me, that looks like there was an addition made to the house, and maybe it's a multi-pitch roof. That lower part might be a covered wrap-around porch. > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 5:59 PM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I was given a drawing, produced by a very large solar company, showing the array cantilevered over the edge of the roof by several feet. > > Notice how the array hangs out over the lawn for several feet. Is there anyway that this is a legitimate way to mount modules? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > _Drake Chamberlin_ > > _Athens Electric LLC_ > > _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ > > _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Christopher Warfel ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 [3] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] https://apps.apple.com/us/app/sun-seeker-tracker-surveyor/id330247123 [2] http://www.millersolar.com/ [3] http://entech-engineering.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 324637 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 175783 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Jan 22 20:30:50 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2024 18:30:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lorentz pumps Message-ID: Does anyone know if Lorentz pumps still exist in the US. Someone is looking for a PS200 control box. It seems to be intermittent Thx Jay From windydankoff at mac.com Mon Jan 22 22:32:41 2024 From: windydankoff at mac.com (Windy Dankoff) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2024 20:32:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lorentz pumps Message-ID: Jay - here is number for Lorentz USA office in TX: ‭(806) 728-0110‬ From roy at four-winds-energy.com Tue Jan 23 08:45:10 2024 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2024 08:45:10 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lorentz pumps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jay, I get all my Lorentz replacement equipment from Genpro: https://genproenergy.com/solar-water-pump/ Roy Butler Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don’t. “The less people know, the more stubbornly they know it.” Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. On 1/22/2024 8:30 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > Does anyone know if Lorentz pumps still exist in the US. > > Someone is looking for a PS200 control box. > It seems to be intermittent > > Thx > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Tue Jan 23 09:32:09 2024 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2024 07:32:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lorentz pumps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jan 30 09:02:39 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2024 09:02:39 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Temperature coefficient versus Power Message-ID: I'm having a hard time finding concrete information on the relationship of temperature coefficient and power output. Solar panel temperature coefficients are determined at Pmax. My question is, at lower irradiance levels, say where power output would be 50% of Pmax at 25C, would the temperature coefficient be greater, less, or the same? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Tue Jan 30 09:25:57 2024 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2024 09:25:57 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Temperature coefficient versus Power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jason, That's an interesting question, as typically it is stated that temperature coefficients are linear, however the "linearity" is with respect to the temperature variable, not power (irradiance) I have always assumed that tkPmp is fairly linear with respect to power, but now that you mention it I don't have much basis for that assumption! However, this article seems helpful: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0038092X21004837 Scroll all the way down to section 4.3, and it appears that there are only very minor variations in tkPMP with low to high irradiance (power). As that chart shows, tkVoc varies more significantly with irradiance, but I do think the industry realizes that and factors it in with the allowance in NEC 690.7 to calculate maximum voltage based on SAND 2004-3535, Photovoltaic Array Performance Model, which takes into account the effect that low irradiance has on voltage - you can see the lower tkVOC at lower irradiances. Cheers, Rebekah Licensed Electrical Contractor NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 Tel: 336.266.8800 On Tue, Jan 30, 2024 at 9:04 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I'm having a hard time finding concrete information on the relationship of > temperature coefficient and power output. Solar panel temperature > coefficients are determined at Pmax. > > My question is, at lower irradiance levels, say where power output would > be 50% of Pmax at 25C, would the temperature coefficient be greater, less, > or the same? > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From George.McClellan at recgroup.com Tue Jan 30 10:01:16 2024 From: George.McClellan at recgroup.com (George McClellan) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2024 15:01:16 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Temperature coefficient versus Power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good Morning; Excellent update Rebekah (someone is up early). Module voltage stays pretty linear as irradiance varies and temp stays constant. Currently the industry calls this linear, but as the whitepaper Rebekah posted shows, it is not truly linear. [cid:image001.png at 01DA534A.1D15BC60] George McClellan | Senior Technical Sales Manager | REC Americas LLC 330 James Way Ste 150 | Pismo Beach, CA 93449 | USA Cell phone +1 805 704 3226 | Fax +1 805 357 6104 www.recgroup.com | george.mcclellan at recgroup.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Rebekah Hren via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2024 6:26 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Rebekah Hren Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Temperature coefficient versus Power Hi Jason, That's an interesting question, as typically it is stated that temperature coefficients are linear, however the "linearity" is with respect to the temperature variable, not power (irradiance) I have always assumed that tkPmp is fairly linear with respect to power, but now that you mention it I don't have much basis for that assumption! However, this article seems helpful: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0038092X21004837 Scroll all the way down to section 4.3, and it appears that there are only very minor variations in tkPMP with low to high irradiance (power). As that chart shows, tkVoc varies more significantly with irradiance, but I do think the industry realizes that and factors it in with the allowance in NEC 690.7 to calculate maximum voltage based on SAND 2004-3535, Photovoltaic Array Performance Model, which takes into account the effect that low irradiance has on voltage - you can see the lower tkVOC at lower irradiances. Cheers, Rebekah Licensed Electrical Contractor NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 Tel: 336.266.8800 On Tue, Jan 30, 2024 at 9:04 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: I'm having a hard time finding concrete information on the relationship of temperature coefficient and power output. Solar panel temperature coefficients are determined at Pmax. My question is, at lower irradiance levels, say where power output would be 50% of Pmax at 25C, would the temperature coefficient be greater, less, or the same? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ________________________________ This message is private and confidential and may be privileged. Any unauthorized use, dissemination of the information or copying of this message is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately and remove it from your system. Thank you. ________________________________ This message is private and confidential and may be privileged. Any unauthorized use, dissemination of the information or copying of this message is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately and remove it from your system. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 70207 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Jan 30 12:14:46 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2024 09:14:46 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Temperature coefficient versus Power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <64b632acafcc9b1165f320547adc577d@sti.net> 10+ years ago I thought that Sunpower Solar wrote the best info. Their module technology was superior and the classic 327 module output was amazing in high temperature and also in cloudy skies. They were the first to have really good warranty for both workmanship and output over time. I have little to say about the current crop of modules. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-01-30 6:02 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > I'm having a hard time finding concrete information on the relationship > of temperature coefficient and power output. Solar panel temperature > coefficients are determined at Pmax. > > My question is, at lower irradiance levels, say where power output > would be 50% of Pmax at 25C, would the temperature coefficient be > greater, less, or the same? > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Feb 4 10:29:52 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2024 10:29:52 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark Message-ID: Are there any off the shelf solutions to view battery SOC via a wired meter mounted remotely on a property? I have a client with a simple voltage based meter for lead acid batteries that they are accustomed to using as a quick and approximate gauge of SOC. They want something similar for their new Sol-Ark with EG4 LL batteries. They will have smartphone app visibility, but they want something they can see inside the house without picking up a phone or going out to the inverter. Ideally the SOC will come from the inverter or the battery itself, not an external source (to avoid discrepancies). Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sun Feb 4 11:37:54 2024 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2024 11:37:54 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark Message-ID: Cheap tablet mounted to the wall?-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenchesDate: Sun, Feb 4, 2024 10:30 AMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Jason Szumlanski;Subject:[RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-ArkAre there any off the shelf solutions to view battery SOC via a wired meter mounted remotely on a property? I have a client with a simple voltage based meter for lead acid batteries that they are accustomed to using as a quick and approximate gauge of SOC. They want something similar for their new Sol-Ark with EG4 LL batteries. They will have smartphone app visibility, but they want something they can see inside the house without picking up a phone or going out to the inverter. Ideally the SOC will come from the inverter or the battery itself, not an external source (to avoid discrepancies).Jason SzumlanskiFlorida Solar Design Group  -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Mon Feb 5 09:01:24 2024 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2024 09:01:24 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Why not revert to the tried, trued and tested Trimetric 2030 from Bogart engineering? I miss the old 2020 units that we installed on every off grid system back in the day. Christopher On Sun, Feb 4, 2024 at 11:38 AM Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Cheap tablet mounted to the wall? > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > *From: *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Date: *Sun, Feb 4, 2024 10:30 AM > *To: *RE-wrenches; > *Cc: *Jason Szumlanski; > *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark > > Are there any off the shelf solutions to view battery SOC via a wired > meter mounted remotely on a property? I have a client with a simple voltage > based meter for lead acid batteries that they are accustomed to using as a > quick and approximate gauge of SOC. They want something similar for their > new Sol-Ark with EG4 LL batteries. > > They will have smartphone app visibility, but they want something they can > see inside the house without picking up a phone or going out to the > inverter. Ideally the SOC will come from the inverter or the battery > itself, not an external source (to avoid discrepancies). > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Mon Feb 5 09:25:00 2024 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2024 09:25:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason, I have found that the TriMetric meter is still somewhat useful and as with lead acid batteries, still recommend not trusting the SOC. My trimetric with no setting changes is still reading SOC about as unreliable as with lead acid but I use the voltage readings combined with a printout of a graph of actual voltages thru the range of full to LBCO If you don't have data from this customers system, I suspect that a chart from any similar sized LFP battery would be close enough. I have Fortress eflex batteries and the Guardian for remote monitoring of the batteries. I use it a lot but my wife always keeps a hawk eye on the Trimetric as we manually start our backup generator. The mid range voltages are plus or minus 20% but at the low end start to change more quickly with about a 3 hour window to start the generator before LBCO. John Blittersdorf offgridvermont.com On Sun, Feb 4, 2024 at 10:30 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Are there any off the shelf solutions to view battery SOC via a wired > meter mounted remotely on a property? I have a client with a simple voltage > based meter for lead acid batteries that they are accustomed to using as a > quick and approximate gauge of SOC. They want something similar for their > new Sol-Ark with EG4 LL batteries. > > They will have smartphone app visibility, but they want something they can > see inside the house without picking up a phone or going out to the > inverter. Ideally the SOC will come from the inverter or the battery > itself, not an external source (to avoid discrepancies). > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Feb 5 09:32:54 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2024 09:32:54 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't want to add a device that provides a separate (different) state of charge than what is reported by the BMS itself. That is just going to lead to confusion and complaints from the homeowner. I was hoping the Sol-Ark could feed SOC and voltage information to a simple external display. I'm leaning toward the cheap tablet idea, but that isn't ideal because the Sol-Ark app doesn't automatically refresh, so it can't be used to display the current SOC without physical interaction. I suppose I could use a web browser with an auto-refresh feature. But this isn't really what I had in mind. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 9:02 AM Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Why not revert to the tried, trued and tested Trimetric 2030 from Bogart > engineering? I miss the old 2020 units that we installed on every off grid > system back in the day. > > Christopher > > On Sun, Feb 4, 2024 at 11:38 AM Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Cheap tablet mounted to the wall? >> >> -Glenn >> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. >> >> ------ Original message------ >> *From: *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches >> *Date: *Sun, Feb 4, 2024 10:30 AM >> *To: *RE-wrenches; >> *Cc: *Jason Szumlanski; >> *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark >> >> Are there any off the shelf solutions to view battery SOC via a wired >> meter mounted remotely on a property? I have a client with a simple voltage >> based meter for lead acid batteries that they are accustomed to using as a >> quick and approximate gauge of SOC. They want something similar for their >> new Sol-Ark with EG4 LL batteries. >> >> They will have smartphone app visibility, but they want something they >> can see inside the house without picking up a phone or going out to the >> inverter. Ideally the SOC will come from the inverter or the battery >> itself, not an external source (to avoid discrepancies). >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Mon Feb 5 09:52:15 2024 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2024 09:52:15 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have done the cheap tablet route in the same application. Just install a browser extension to auto refresh the So-ark app screen at an interval of your choosing. All browsers have add-ons which do it. On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 9:33 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I don't want to add a device that provides a separate (different) state of > charge than what is reported by the BMS itself. That is just going to lead > to confusion and complaints from the homeowner. I was hoping the Sol-Ark > could feed SOC and voltage information to a simple external display. I'm > leaning toward the cheap tablet idea, but that isn't ideal because the > Sol-Ark app doesn't automatically refresh, so it can't be used to display > the current SOC without physical interaction. I suppose I could use a web > browser with an auto-refresh feature. But this isn't really what I had in > mind. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 9:02 AM Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Why not revert to the tried, trued and tested Trimetric 2030 from Bogart >> engineering? I miss the old 2020 units that we installed on every off grid >> system back in the day. >> >> Christopher >> >> On Sun, Feb 4, 2024 at 11:38 AM Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Cheap tablet mounted to the wall? >>> >>> -Glenn >>> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. >>> >>> ------ Original message------ >>> *From: *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches >>> *Date: *Sun, Feb 4, 2024 10:30 AM >>> *To: *RE-wrenches; >>> *Cc: *Jason Szumlanski; >>> *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark >>> >>> Are there any off the shelf solutions to view battery SOC via a wired >>> meter mounted remotely on a property? I have a client with a simple voltage >>> based meter for lead acid batteries that they are accustomed to using as a >>> quick and approximate gauge of SOC. They want something similar for their >>> new Sol-Ark with EG4 LL batteries. >>> >>> They will have smartphone app visibility, but they want something they >>> can see inside the house without picking up a phone or going out to the >>> inverter. Ideally the SOC will come from the inverter or the battery >>> itself, not an external source (to avoid discrepancies). >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Feb 5 11:36:00 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2024 08:36:00 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason: I am careful about getting my clients too dependent on SOC readings. SOC is a calculated value based on changing variables and is notoriously inaccurate. Below is a screenshot of the Optics reporting for a client. The graph line that begins as the lower of the two is the SOC, the other is voltage. The SOC is out of calibration until about noon when it jumps from about 20% to about 80%. This does not mean the SOC changed by that amount, it means that it was just very wrong. Who knows when it is correct? In spite of repeated entreaties this client still reads the SOC and becomes concerned when it gets low-- even if the voltage level indicates the batteries are well charged. I have to deal with his misplaced anxiety. [image: SOC][image: VDC] This problem appears to occur across all battery/inverter technology. For example, SMA touts their “coulomb counting” as more accurate than others but I have witnessed otherwise. You’d think that BMS units built by lithium manufacturers for their own products would be consistently accurate but even those BMS units need to recalibrate frequently, this according to the battery manufacturer’s engineers. It would be nice to offer clients a simple, accurate method of ascertaining battery charge levels. SOC is not that method. I train my clients to watch voltage levels and to understand these values are elastic. If you can see trends in the battery voltage, so much the better. This is why I like the Outback Optics interface. This is also why a good AGS system examines battery voltage over time. I no longer install Outback FNDC units. Without them there is no SOC reading. I don’t install Sunny Island systems—they are SOC centered and suffer for it. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Sunday, February 4, 2024 7:30 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark Are there any off the shelf solutions to view battery SOC via a wired meter mounted remotely on a property? I have a client with a simple voltage based meter for lead acid batteries that they are accustomed to using as a quick and approximate gauge of SOC. They want something similar for their new Sol-Ark with EG4 LL batteries. They will have smartphone app visibility, but they want something they can see inside the house without picking up a phone or going out to the inverter. Ideally the SOC will come from the inverter or the battery itself, not an external source (to avoid discrepancies). Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 79876 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.emz Type: application/octet-stream Size: 1645 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 739 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.emz Type: application/octet-stream Size: 1698 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image007.png Type: image/png Size: 701 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Feb 5 12:09:44 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2024 09:09:44 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3d9fef45834a901d190916cfc3b75f42@sti.net> Ask them to do it? Sometimes it is just a matter of asking. Schneider did this because I told a bunch of people to complain. There are folks who only want to look out the window and see a picture & read Soc. It works for them. They are the boss! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-02-05 6:32 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > I don't want to add a device that provides a separate (different) state > of charge than what is reported by the BMS itself. That is just going > to lead to confusion and complaints from the homeowner. I was hoping > the Sol-Ark could feed SOC and voltage information to a simple external > display. I'm leaning toward the cheap tablet idea, but that isn't ideal > because the Sol-Ark app doesn't automatically refresh, so it can't be > used to display the current SOC without physical interaction. I suppose > I could use a web browser with an auto-refresh feature. But this isn't > really what I had in mind. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 9:02 AM Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Why not revert to the tried, trued and tested Trimetric 2030 from > Bogart engineering? I miss the old 2020 units that we installed on > every off grid system back in the day. > > Christopher > > On Sun, Feb 4, 2024 at 11:38 AM Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Cheap tablet mounted to the wall? > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > From: Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > Date: Sun, Feb 4, 2024 10:30 AM > To: RE-wrenches; > Cc: Jason Szumlanski; > Subject:[RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark > > Are there any off the shelf solutions to view battery SOC via a wired > meter mounted remotely on a property? I have a client with a simple > voltage based meter for lead acid batteries that they are accustomed to > using as a quick and approximate gauge of SOC. They want something > similar for their new Sol-Ark with EG4 LL batteries. > > They will have smartphone app visibility, but they want something they > can see inside the house without picking up a phone or going out to the > inverter. Ideally the SOC will come from the inverter or the battery > itself, not an external source (to avoid discrepancies). > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 883007a5.png Type: image/png Size: 263937 bytes Desc: not available URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon Feb 5 12:15:14 2024 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2024 12:15:14 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: <3d9fef45834a901d190916cfc3b75f42@sti.net> References: <3d9fef45834a901d190916cfc3b75f42@sti.net> Message-ID: <001d01da5856$e342f9a0$a9c8ece0$@glbcc.com> And I see the SCP is once again being produced and offered for sale! From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, February 05, 2024 12:10 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark Ask them to do it? Sometimes it is just a matter of asking. Schneider did this because I told a bunch of people to complain. There are folks who only want to look out the window and see a picture & read Soc. It works for them. They are the boss! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" https://offgridsolar1.com/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-02-05 6:32 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: I don't want to add a device that provides a separate (different) state of charge than what is reported by the BMS itself. That is just going to lead to confusion and complaints from the homeowner. I was hoping the Sol-Ark could feed SOC and voltage information to a simple external display. I'm leaning toward the cheap tablet idea, but that isn't ideal because the Sol-Ark app doesn't automatically refresh, so it can't be used to display the current SOC without physical interaction. I suppose I could use a web browser with an auto-refresh feature. But this isn't really what I had in mind. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 9:02 AM Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches > wrote: Why not revert to the tried, trued and tested Trimetric 2030 from Bogart engineering? I miss the old 2020 units that we installed on every off grid system back in the day. Christopher On Sun, Feb 4, 2024 at 11:38 AM Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches > wrote: Cheap tablet mounted to the wall? -Glenn Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. ------ Original message------ From: Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches Date: Sun, Feb 4, 2024 10:30 AM To: RE-wrenches; Cc: Jason Szumlanski; Subject:[RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark Are there any off the shelf solutions to view battery SOC via a wired meter mounted remotely on a property? I have a client with a simple voltage based meter for lead acid batteries that they are accustomed to using as a quick and approximate gauge of SOC. They want something similar for their new Sol-Ark with EG4 LL batteries. They will have smartphone app visibility, but they want something they can see inside the house without picking up a phone or going out to the inverter. Ideally the SOC will come from the inverter or the battery itself, not an external source (to avoid discrepancies). Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 263937 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Mon Feb 5 12:27:57 2024 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2024 07:27:57 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Insight Home and Insight Cloud Message-ID: Aloha All, I recently installed 2 new off-grid systems using all Scneider products, Discover 7.4 batteries and the Insight Home all setup in Insight Cloud. Both systems are experiencing communications issues with Insight Cloud and a bit on the Xanbus. Though each in a different way. Before I go into specifics, has anyone else been having issues with Insight Cloud or the Xanbus recently? Just wondering if it is a me problem or a they problem. I have gone through all the standard tech support phone call instructions. All firmware updated, comms cables checked, internet speeds confirmed to be good, system set back to system defaults and reprogrammed, etc... Thanks for your time. Aloha, Lou Russo Owner lou at spreesolarsystems.com 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Feb 5 12:52:27 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2024 12:52:27 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This isn't an acceptable response that I can give to people spending tens of thousands of dollars on batteries. These clients roll into their garage and their EV tells them how many miles are left (state of charge, effectively). If it can be done in an EV, it's unacceptable to resign ourselves as solar professionals to tell clients there is no reasonably accurate way estimate state of charge of a backup battery, which is based on the same technology as an EV battery. I have seen the "elasticity" of SOC reading you mentioned. It's just unacceptable in this day and age. We need to demand better from the manufacturers. Clients will be okay with some degree of uncertainty, but we can't have a fuel gauge bouncing all over the place. -end of rant- Jason On Mon, Feb 5, 2024, 11:51 AM William Miller wrote: > Jason: > > > > I am careful about getting my clients too dependent on SOC readings. SOC > is a calculated value based on changing variables and is notoriously > inaccurate. > > > > Below is a screenshot of the Optics reporting for a client. The graph > line that begins as the lower of the two is the SOC, the other is voltage. > The SOC is out of calibration until about noon when it jumps from about 20% > to about 80%. This does not mean the SOC changed by that amount, it means > that it was just very wrong. Who knows when it is correct? > > > > In spite of repeated entreaties this client still reads the SOC and > becomes concerned when it gets low-- even if the voltage level indicates > the batteries are well charged. I have to deal with his misplaced anxiety. > > > > > > [image: SOC][image: VDC] > > > > This problem appears to occur across all battery/inverter technology. For > example, SMA touts their “coulomb counting” as more accurate than others > but I have witnessed otherwise. You’d think that BMS units built by > lithium manufacturers for their own products would be consistently accurate > but even those BMS units need to recalibrate frequently, this according to > the battery manufacturer’s engineers. > > > > It would be nice to offer clients a simple, accurate method of > ascertaining battery charge levels. SOC is not that method. I train my > clients to watch voltage levels and to understand these values are > elastic. If you can see trends in the battery voltage, so much the better. > This is why I like the Outback Optics interface. This is also why a good > AGS system examines battery voltage over time. > > > > I no longer install Outback FNDC units. Without them there is no SOC > reading. I don’t install Sunny Island systems—they are SOC centered and > suffer for it. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Sunday, February 4, 2024 7:30 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark > > > > Are there any off the shelf solutions to view battery SOC via a wired > meter mounted remotely on a property? I have a client with a simple voltage > based meter for lead acid batteries that they are accustomed to using as a > quick and approximate gauge of SOC. They want something similar for their > new Sol-Ark with EG4 LL batteries. > > > > They will have smartphone app visibility, but they want something they can > see inside the house without picking up a phone or going out to the > inverter. Ideally the SOC will come from the inverter or the battery > itself, not an external source (to avoid discrepancies). > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 79876 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 739 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image007.png Type: image/png Size: 701 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Feb 5 13:21:41 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2024 10:21:41 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Insight Home and Insight Cloud In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Insight cloud is always on for me! Use it 7 days a week for monitoring clients. There are some refresh tricks to make it super fast when going to lots of different sites. When I hear a client ( I work for guys like you) say it is slow, it always ends up being their ISP or set-up of the Insight Local device. As for xanbus, it really is how many devices & cable length, and if you are at the edge, you need to use Facility which has 2 xanbus networks for large systems. I think you do need to go into specifics😉 Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-02-05 9:27 am, Lou Russo via RE-wrenches wrote: > Aloha All, > > I recently installed 2 new off-grid systems using all Scneider > products, Discover 7.4 batteries and the Insight Home all setup in > Insight Cloud. Both systems are experiencing communications issues with > Insight Cloud and a bit on the Xanbus. Though each in a different way. > > Before I go into specifics, has anyone else been having issues with > Insight Cloud or the Xanbus recently? > Just wondering if it is a me problem or a they problem. > > I have gone through all the standard tech support phone call > instructions. All firmware updated, comms cables checked, internet > speeds confirmed to be good, system set back to system defaults and > reprogrammed, etc... > > Thanks for your time. > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > Owner > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > 808 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: insight2.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 122479 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Feb 5 13:11:54 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2024 10:11:54 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason: EVs apparently have their own problems with metering: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a44754199/tesla-range-display-estimate-tested/ William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com] *Sent:* Monday, February 5, 2024 9:52 AM *To:* William Miller *Cc:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark This isn't an acceptable response that I can give to people spending tens of thousands of dollars on batteries. These clients roll into their garage and their EV tells them how many miles are left (state of charge, effectively). If it can be done in an EV, it's unacceptable to resign ourselves as solar professionals to tell clients there is no reasonably accurate way estimate state of charge of a backup battery, which is based on the same technology as an EV battery. I have seen the "elasticity" of SOC reading you mentioned. It's just unacceptable in this day and age. We need to demand better from the manufacturers. Clients will be okay with some degree of uncertainty, but we can't have a fuel gauge bouncing all over the place. -end of rant- Jason On Mon, Feb 5, 2024, 11:51 AM William Miller wrote: Jason: I am careful about getting my clients too dependent on SOC readings. SOC is a calculated value based on changing variables and is notoriously inaccurate. Below is a screenshot of the Optics reporting for a client. The graph line that begins as the lower of the two is the SOC, the other is voltage. The SOC is out of calibration until about noon when it jumps from about 20% to about 80%. This does not mean the SOC changed by that amount, it means that it was just very wrong. Who knows when it is correct? In spite of repeated entreaties this client still reads the SOC and becomes concerned when it gets low-- even if the voltage level indicates the batteries are well charged. I have to deal with his misplaced anxiety. [image: SOC][image: VDC] This problem appears to occur across all battery/inverter technology. For example, SMA touts their “coulomb counting” as more accurate than others but I have witnessed otherwise. You’d think that BMS units built by lithium manufacturers for their own products would be consistently accurate but even those BMS units need to recalibrate frequently, this according to the battery manufacturer’s engineers. It would be nice to offer clients a simple, accurate method of ascertaining battery charge levels. SOC is not that method. I train my clients to watch voltage levels and to understand these values are elastic. If you can see trends in the battery voltage, so much the better. This is why I like the Outback Optics interface. This is also why a good AGS system examines battery voltage over time. I no longer install Outback FNDC units. Without them there is no SOC reading. I don’t install Sunny Island systems—they are SOC centered and suffer for it. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Sunday, February 4, 2024 7:30 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark Are there any off the shelf solutions to view battery SOC via a wired meter mounted remotely on a property? I have a client with a simple voltage based meter for lead acid batteries that they are accustomed to using as a quick and approximate gauge of SOC. They want something similar for their new Sol-Ark with EG4 LL batteries. They will have smartphone app visibility, but they want something they can see inside the house without picking up a phone or going out to the inverter. Ideally the SOC will come from the inverter or the battery itself, not an external source (to avoid discrepancies). Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Mon Feb 5 18:01:10 2024 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2024 19:01:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you know someone who can set up a little raspberry pi with a display, you try this script. It's called solark-modbus. On Mon, Feb 5, 2024, 10:33 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I don't want to add a device that provides a separate (different) state of > charge than what is reported by the BMS itself. That is just going to lead > to confusion and complaints from the homeowner. I was hoping the Sol-Ark > could feed SOC and voltage information to a simple external display. I'm > leaning toward the cheap tablet idea, but that isn't ideal because the > Sol-Ark app doesn't automatically refresh, so it can't be used to display > the current SOC without physical interaction. I suppose I could use a web > browser with an auto-refresh feature. But this isn't really what I had in > mind. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 9:02 AM Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Why not revert to the tried, trued and tested Trimetric 2030 from Bogart >> engineering? I miss the old 2020 units that we installed on every off grid >> system back in the day. >> >> Christopher >> >> On Sun, Feb 4, 2024 at 11:38 AM Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Cheap tablet mounted to the wall? >>> >>> -Glenn >>> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. >>> >>> ------ Original message------ >>> *From: *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches >>> *Date: *Sun, Feb 4, 2024 10:30 AM >>> *To: *RE-wrenches; >>> *Cc: *Jason Szumlanski; >>> *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark >>> >>> Are there any off the shelf solutions to view battery SOC via a wired >>> meter mounted remotely on a property? I have a client with a simple voltage >>> based meter for lead acid batteries that they are accustomed to using as a >>> quick and approximate gauge of SOC. They want something similar for their >>> new Sol-Ark with EG4 LL batteries. >>> >>> They will have smartphone app visibility, but they want something they >>> can see inside the house without picking up a phone or going out to the >>> inverter. Ideally the SOC will come from the inverter or the battery >>> itself, not an external source (to avoid discrepancies). >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screenshot_20240205_185800_Chrome.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 420329 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Tue Feb 6 12:25:50 2024 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2024 10:25:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark Message-ID: ~ This is yet another worthwhile topic with the Mechanics ~ Chris Mason wrote: "If you know someone who can set up a little raspberry pi with a display, you try this script. It's called solark-modbus." I did a google for Solark "raspberry pi" & the first link took me to this: https://solar-assistant.io/explore/solark For an amateur like me, getting the hardware and software from Solar Assistant has a lot of appeal, even if it costs more than a home brew setup. How 'bout that "single source accountability"? Original poster Jason Szumlanski may appreciate the video that I've linked below. The video creator connected a touch screen display directly to his Solar Assistant box: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXOVVMOGfNM I may try the S-A bundle with an EG4 battery for some off gridders in crisis. Their old Outback system doesn't even have a TriMetric monitor, but for about the same price as a TM-2020, we could get the SOC data, etc. directly from the BMS. I'd use the client's computer instead of a touch screen to keep the cost down. Acknowledged (to William Miller's point) the data would be no better than what the BMS can deliver. "Any port in a storm," however, and my new friends off the grid are in a terrible storm. As always, "The Wrench List is the Bomb!" Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Tue Feb 6 12:58:48 2024 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2024 10:58:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark Message-ID: Me again, Mechanics, with some corrections to my recent post. Solar Assistant may not be a US based provider. They publish pricing in US dollars but I was unable to log in or create an account. Watts247.com claims to be the only authorized US distributor. https://watts247.com/product/solar-assistant-remote-monitoring-mpp-solar-growatt-deye-sol-ark-sunsynk-and-many-bmss/ but their pricing pushes the system cost well above the cost for a TriMetric. I apologize for uploading wrong/incomplete information before, thanks. Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Feb 7 07:45:36 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2024 04:45:36 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Deka Duration Message-ID: <8abd261fbbef5da192be5e2f05002f0d@mail.gmail.com> Pals: Anyone have any experience with this product, good or bad? https://www.mkbattery.com/products/energy-storage#deka We have had excellent results using their flooded and valve regulated lead-acid batteries. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Feb 7 10:50:56 2024 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2024 10:50:56 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Insight Home and Insight Cloud In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My experience with using Insight and Xanbus is that the projects never end. It is too bad, since Schneider equipment seems really good. The software issues don't seem to ever get completely solved. Possibly with a very simple system, the Xanbus might work OK. _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ --- On 2024-02-05 12:27, Lou Russo via RE-wrenches wrote: > Aloha All, > > I recently installed 2 new off-grid systems using all Scneider products, Discover 7.4 batteries and the Insight Home all setup in Insight Cloud. Both systems are experiencing communications issues with Insight Cloud and a bit on the Xanbus. Though each in a different way. > > Before I go into specifics, has anyone else been having issues with Insight Cloud or the Xanbus recently? > Just wondering if it is a me problem or a they problem. > > I have gone through all the standard tech support phone call instructions. All firmware updated, comms cables checked, internet speeds confirmed to be good, system set back to system defaults and reprogrammed, etc... > > Thanks for your time. > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > Owner > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > 808 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Wed Feb 7 11:06:45 2024 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2024 08:06:45 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Deka Duration In-Reply-To: <8abd261fbbef5da192be5e2f05002f0d@mail.gmail.com> References: <8abd261fbbef5da192be5e2f05002f0d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Read the warranty. Very limited uses to maintain coverage. Mfg by an Italian Co that is somewhat condescending toward customers. But of course East Penn is good to work with. My understanding is that they do work with the three phase Sol-Ark inverters. Brad On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 4:52 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Pals: > > > > Anyone have any experience with this product, good or bad? > > > > https://www.mkbattery.com/products/energy-storage#deka > > > > We have had excellent results using their flooded and valve regulated > lead-acid batteries. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Feb 7 11:15:15 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2024 09:15:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Insight Home and Insight Cloud In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87DD6A72-8C82-4920-9339-2DBDB8056E93@gmail.com> I guess the SCP is back in production. But if I understand correctly you still need the insight to program the XWPRO versions? thx jay > On Feb 7, 2024, at 8:50 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > > My experience with using Insight and Xanbus is that the projects never end. It is too bad, since Schneider equipment seems really good. The software issues don't seem to ever get completely solved. Possibly with a very simple system, the Xanbus might work OK. > > Drake Chamberlin > > Athens Electric LLC > > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > > > --- > > > > On 2024-02-05 12:27, Lou Russo via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> Aloha All, >> >> I recently installed 2 new off-grid systems using all Scneider products, Discover 7.4 batteries and the Insight Home all setup in Insight Cloud. Both systems are experiencing communications issues with Insight Cloud and a bit on the Xanbus. Though each in a different way. >> >> Before I go into specifics, has anyone else been having issues with Insight Cloud or the Xanbus recently? >> Just wondering if it is a me problem or a they problem. >> >> I have gone through all the standard tech support phone call instructions. All firmware updated, comms cables checked, internet speeds confirmed to be good, system set back to system defaults and reprogrammed, etc... >> >> Thanks for your time. >> >> Aloha, >> >> Lou Russo >> Owner >> lou at spreesolarsystems.com >> 808 345 6762 >> Spree Solar Systems LLC >> CT-34322 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Feb 7 11:19:15 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2024 09:19:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries In-Reply-To: References: <8abd261fbbef5da192be5e2f05002f0d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5659EF89-83B6-407B-AFAD-08271727FD03@gmail.com> One of the things that I’m just now learning is about BMS failure/warranty/fix/replacement. Some can be field installed some need to go back to the OEM. I guess its something else we need to check on. Jay > On Feb 7, 2024, at 9:06 AM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Read the warranty. Very limited uses to maintain coverage. Mfg by an Italian Co that is somewhat condescending toward customers. But of course East Penn is good to work with. My understanding is that they do work with the three phase Sol-Ark inverters. > > Brad > > On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 4:52 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Pals: > > > Anyone have any experience with this product, good or bad? > > > https://www.mkbattery.com/products/energy-storage#deka > > We have had excellent results using their flooded and valve regulated lead-acid batteries. > > > William > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Wed Feb 7 13:40:44 2024 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2024 18:40:44 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Deka Duration In-Reply-To: <8abd261fbbef5da192be5e2f05002f0d@mail.gmail.com> References: <8abd261fbbef5da192be5e2f05002f0d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, I’ve put a few systems together with these batteries, smaller ones. Some larger ones in the queue. The product itself seems well designed, and flexible for many different configurations – low or high voltage and scales from 1 to 100’s of batteries. The WiFi / Bluetooth software interface & documentation is very poor. Still haven’t managed successful WiFi connections. I’ve never figured out why it seems all Lithium batteries have such tiny ¼” battery terminals with # 4 interconnect cables. It comes with DC cables low and high voltage, data cables, wall mount brackets & anchors if using that method. Additional components needed for floor stacking. One of my concerns with all the players in the Lithium world right now, and the inevitable fly-by-night box-moving operations that will go out of business, leaving clients hanging with warranties, is I wanted to work with an established company like East Penn who understands their product. Kevin From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of William Miller via RE-wrenches Sent: February-07-24 4:46 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: William Miller Subject: [RE-wrenches] Deka Duration Pals: Anyone have any experience with this product, good or bad? https://www.mkbattery.com/products/energy-storage#deka We have had excellent results using their flooded and valve regulated lead-acid batteries. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Feb 7 15:19:41 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2024 13:19:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] rolls battery question In-Reply-To: References: <8abd261fbbef5da192be5e2f05002f0d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi All, Can anyone tell me off the top of their head if older Rolls 6CS 25PS Do they have welded or bolted internal connections? I have a site I’m going to, very remote that might have a bad cell or two and I’m just figuring out how I’m going to bypass the bad cells. thanks jay From steve at surrette.com Wed Feb 7 15:24:41 2024 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2024 12:24:41 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] rolls battery question In-Reply-To: References: <8abd261fbbef5da192be5e2f05002f0d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: The three interconnects between the 2v cells are bolted. If they are over 15 years they might be welded... Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 12:21 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi All, > > Can anyone tell me off the top of their head if older Rolls > > 6CS 25PS > > Do they have welded or bolted internal connections? > > I have a site I’m going to, very remote that might have a bad cell or two > and I’m just figuring out how I’m going to bypass the bad cells. > > thanks > > jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Wed Feb 7 15:54:34 2024 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2024 13:54:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] generator charging question/VFX3524 In-Reply-To: References: <8abd261fbbef5da192be5e2f05002f0d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <011c01da5a07$db300840$919018c0$@OasisMontana.com> Hi folks: So, we have a customer (equipment not acquired from us) with an older OUTBACK VFX3524, charging their 3 X RB24V200 ReLion LFP batteries vis a vis one leg of their generator. The battery is capable of up to 200A recharge though the manufacturer recommends 10~100A. The customer has a 240VAC generator with two 120VAC legs; customer wants to bump up the charging to over 22.5A, preferably more; they’re running their gennie a lot to get a rather slow rate of charge from the inverter’s charger. Presently the customer has the Inverter/charger connected through the FLEXware 250 enclosure. There is not a busbar in place. The idea presented is to use an external battery charger that would pull from the other leg of the 240VAC gen set to supplement the charging capability. The question becomes: can we use a busbar with disparate amps charging to bump up the charging rate for the LiFePo4 battery? Outback techs are saying the VFX3524 is not LiFePo4 compatible, but they also say they need to stack another inverter. I think we are looking at letting the smoke out of the least-producing charger by pushing amperages back. What do y’all think? Any and all ideas are under consideration. Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Wed Feb 7 22:37:21 2024 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2024 22:37:21 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] generator charging question/VFX3524 In-Reply-To: <011c01da5a07$db300840$919018c0$@OasisMontana.com> References: <8abd261fbbef5da192be5e2f05002f0d@mail.gmail.com> <011c01da5a07$db300840$919018c0$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: Chris, I am doing just what you are contemplating. I have a 6000 watt Briggs & Stratton Gasoline worksite generator and had the same issue charging my Fortress Eflex batteries. I was getting 25 amps off one leg but the genny wasn't happy about it. I ran another line off of leg 2 directly to an Iota DLS 54-13 and now I get almost 40 amps and the generator runs more smoothly. The only problem with the older outback inverter is that the low battery cutout will only go up to 48 V when it should be closer to 50 or more. As long as the customer keeps an eye on the voltage or the generator has AGS, there is no problem If the batteries do shut themselves down, the Iota charger can boot them back to life ... a good reason to have the second non generator charger. I have considered hooking up a second IOTA charger to see if I can get 50 amps out of my generator without it working too hard. I John Blittersdorf NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ CV Wind Service (and solar) 200 West Road N Chittenden, VT 05763 802-770-8625 www.offgridvermont.com On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 3:56 PM Chris Daum via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi folks: > > > > So, we have a customer (equipment not acquired from us) with an older > OUTBACK VFX3524, charging their 3 X RB24V200 ReLion LFP batteries vis a > vis one leg of their generator. The battery is capable of up to 200A > recharge though the manufacturer recommends 10~100A. The customer has a > 240VAC generator with two 120VAC legs; customer wants to bump up the > charging to over 22.5A, preferably more; they’re running their gennie a > lot to get a rather slow rate of charge from the inverter’s charger. > Presently the customer has the Inverter/charger connected through the > FLEXware 250 enclosure. There is not a busbar in place. The idea > presented is to use an external battery charger that would pull from the > other leg of the 240VAC gen set to supplement the charging capability. The > question becomes: can we use a busbar with disparate amps charging to bump > up the charging rate for the LiFePo4 battery? Outback techs are saying > the VFX3524 is not LiFePo4 compatible, but they also say they need to stack > another inverter. I think we are looking at letting the smoke out of the > least-producing charger by pushing amperages back. What do y’all think? > Any and all ideas are under consideration. > > > > Best, > > > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > www.oasismontana.com > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Feb 8 00:17:05 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2024 22:17:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries In-Reply-To: <5659EF89-83B6-407B-AFAD-08271727FD03@gmail.com> References: <8abd261fbbef5da192be5e2f05002f0d@mail.gmail.com> <5659EF89-83B6-407B-AFAD-08271727FD03@gmail.com> Message-ID: <40059d54-7f28-4e8b-98d3-f5b04517e6a8@solarray.com> We just had a complete failure of a set of four Simpliphi 3.8 KWh batteries, 48 v.  It has completely changed my thoughts on Li+ for off grid.  This set lasted 5 years, which is about equal to bottom of the barrel Golf Cart batteries.  The RMA/ Warranty process has not been smooth.  It took almost a week to even get shipping info from Simpliphi, and then another week to deal with Hazmat issues, and get Fed Ex to accept used Li+ batteries for shipment.  To their credit, tech support has been knowledgeable, responsive, and available by phone while on site.  Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but then a month ago, after several days of cloudy weather, the system shut down due to low voltage. (so far, fairly typical off grid winter situation) When the customer started the generator and tried to revive the system, he noticed one of the batteries didn't seem to be taking a charge, so after consulting with Simpliphi, he charged each battery separately with a small aux charger.  I checked this charger and it was quite stable at a max of 58 v.  By the time I arrived, all 4 batteries would not accept even milliamps of charge current. The BMSs had all disconnected the batteries from the buss, but strangely there was residual voltage (51vdc) on the terminals.  It was not usable however, and crashed to 18 v upon connection to the inverter with no loads. Simpliphi is claiming all the BMS units were fried due to a high voltage event.  Its winter, there was no lightning, and we had both the Outback FM100 and the Schneider XW programmed according to the Simpliphi integration guides.   BTW, Simpliphi has no high voltage recording, they just don't like the look of how their electronics fried. Electronics failed = customer's fault.  I think it failed because of the voltage differential between the low battery voltage and normal charge voltage.  If  the BMS can't survive in a typical off grid environment, with proper programming on industry standard equipment, its not suitable for off grid applications.  Plenty of manus have decided to quit recommending their equipment for off grid; its a tough gig. How many times have we all heard the old '/Manu S blaming Manu X'/ snafu on this list?  Simpliphi is saying that the XW can have transient over voltage events.  Well, that should be mentioned in the integration guide, so we can make an informed decision, and not use that inverter with their batteries. So after paying about 5 times what a set of golf cart batteries would have cost, my client is looking at having to buy a complete new set.  That's approx. *$1.60/ kWh of use from the old set*. Simpliphi is saying they'll give us a discount on refurbished units; that is still to be seen.  The customer has been running on an old generator for the past 3 weeks in sub zero weather at 9000 ft.  Also, why would we want to reinstall more of these, without any assurance that this won't happen again in a couple of years? In 27 years in the off grid business, I have never dealt with such a complete and sudden battery failure, or with such a rough RMA process, or with such a poor warranty from a supposedly top tier manu.  I thought I was providing my customer with the best, but now good old flooded lead acid batteries are all I'm considering for up coming installs.  It's 2024, but lead acid are a known quantity, and with proper maintenance are quite robust and predictable.  Even when they fail, there are plenty of warning signs beforehand.  They also can handle below freezing weather, and I am just not a fan of the whole '/battery heating do it yourself off Ebay with pet heaters'/ BS either. *Li+ is just not ready for off grid.*  It seems to work fine for folks that don't rely on it, like GTB. At least if something like EG4 fails, its price point is not too far off of lead acid.   Simpliphi (now Briggs and Stratton) at almost $800/ kWh? We were counting on you, we sold these batteries to many clients under the guise that this was NOT a /'Fly by night/ made in China/' offering.  Based on cycle life, this should have lasted a lifetime.  I hate being wrong.  I can only pray that more of these high price tag batteries don't start failing on my watch. I've been holding this rant back for a while, trying to give Simpliphi a chance to make this right. However, this week I heard their "diagnosis", and then I saw Jay's timely post? I knew it was time.  Sincerely, Ray Walters Remote Solar On 2/7/2024 9:19 AM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > One of the things that I’m just now learning is about BMS > failure/warranty/fix/replacement. > > Some can be field installed some need to go back to the OEM. > > I guess its something else we need to check on. > > Jay > > > >> On Feb 7, 2024, at 9:06 AM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> Read the warranty. Very limited uses to maintain coverage. Mfg by an >> Italian Co that is somewhat condescending toward customers. But of >> course East Penn is good to work with. My understanding is that they >> do work with the three phase Sol-Ark inverters. >> >> Brad >> >> On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 4:52 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> Pals: >> >> >> Anyone have any experience with this product, good or bad? >> >> >> https://www.mkbattery.com/products/energy-storage#deka >> >> >> We have had excellent results using their flooded and valve >> regulated lead-acid batteries. >> >> >> William >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >> try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Feb 8 07:23:26 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2024 07:23:26 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries In-Reply-To: <40059d54-7f28-4e8b-98d3-f5b04517e6a8@solarray.com> References: <8abd261fbbef5da192be5e2f05002f0d@mail.gmail.com> <5659EF89-83B6-407B-AFAD-08271727FD03@gmail.com> <40059d54-7f28-4e8b-98d3-f5b04517e6a8@solarray.com> Message-ID: For what it's worth, B&S has a stellar reputation around here for dealer warranty support on their generators. I know that doesn't always translate when companies acquire others (a case in point is the disastrous ADT/SunPro mess). How battery manufacturers will handle LiPO warranty claims is still unknown given the industry's infancy. Homeowners often make decisions based on name recognition and backing of these big companies. And then they find out that wasn't the best decision. All we can do as the middlemen is hold the manufacturers' feet to the fire. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 12:17 AM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We just had a complete failure of a set of four Simpliphi 3.8 KWh > batteries, 48 v. It has completely changed my thoughts on Li+ for off > grid. This set lasted 5 years, which is about equal to bottom of the > barrel Golf Cart batteries. The RMA/ Warranty process has not been > smooth. It took almost a week to even get shipping info from Simpliphi, > and then another week to deal with Hazmat issues, and get Fed Ex to accept > used Li+ batteries for shipment. To their credit, tech support has been > knowledgeable, responsive, and available by phone while on site. > > Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but then a month ago, after > several days of cloudy weather, the system shut down due to low voltage. > (so far, fairly typical off grid winter situation) When the customer > started the generator and tried to revive the system, he noticed one of the > batteries didn't seem to be taking a charge, so after consulting with > Simpliphi, he charged each battery separately with a small aux charger. I > checked this charger and it was quite stable at a max of 58 v. By the time > I arrived, all 4 batteries would not accept even milliamps of charge > current. The BMSs had all disconnected the batteries from the buss, but > strangely there was residual voltage (51vdc) on the terminals. It was not > usable however, and crashed to 18 v upon connection to the inverter with no > loads. > > Simpliphi is claiming all the BMS units were fried due to a high voltage > event. Its winter, there was no lightning, and we had both the Outback > FM100 and the Schneider XW programmed according to the Simpliphi > integration guides. BTW, Simpliphi has no high voltage recording, they > just don't like the look of how their electronics fried. Electronics failed > = customer's fault. I think it failed because of the voltage differential > between the low battery voltage and normal charge voltage. If the BMS > can't survive in a typical off grid environment, with proper programming on > industry standard equipment, its not suitable for off grid applications. > Plenty of manus have decided to quit recommending their equipment for off > grid; its a tough gig. > > How many times have we all heard the old '*Manu S blaming Manu X'* snafu > on this list? Simpliphi is saying that the XW can have transient over > voltage events. Well, that should be mentioned in the integration guide, > so we can make an informed decision, and not use that inverter with their > batteries. > > So after paying about 5 times what a set of golf cart batteries would have > cost, my client is looking at having to buy a complete new set. That's > approx. *$1.60/ kWh of use from the old set*. Simpliphi is saying > they'll give us a discount on refurbished units; that is still to be seen. > The customer has been running on an old generator for the past 3 weeks in > sub zero weather at 9000 ft. Also, why would we want to reinstall more of > these, without any assurance that this won't happen again in a couple of > years? > > In 27 years in the off grid business, I have never dealt with such a > complete and sudden battery failure, or with such a rough RMA process, or > with such a poor warranty from a supposedly top tier manu. I thought I was > providing my customer with the best, but now good old flooded lead acid > batteries are all I'm considering for up coming installs. It's 2024, but > lead acid are a known quantity, and with proper maintenance are quite > robust and predictable. Even when they fail, there are plenty of warning > signs beforehand. They also can handle below freezing weather, and I am > just not a fan of the whole '*battery heating do it yourself off Ebay > with pet heaters'* BS either. > > *Li+ is just not ready for off grid.* It seems to work fine for folks > that don't rely on it, like GTB. > > At least if something like EG4 fails, its price point is not too far off > of lead acid. Simpliphi (now Briggs and Stratton) at almost $800/ kWh? We > were counting on you, we sold these batteries to many clients under the > guise that this was NOT a *'Fly by night/ made in China*' offering. > Based on cycle life, this should have lasted a lifetime. I hate being > wrong. I can only pray that more of these high price tag batteries don't > start failing on my watch. > > I've been holding this rant back for a while, trying to give Simpliphi a > chance to make this right. However, this week I heard their "diagnosis", > and then I saw Jay's timely post? I knew it was time. > > Sincerely, > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > On 2/7/2024 9:19 AM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > One of the things that I’m just now learning is about BMS > failure/warranty/fix/replacement. > > Some can be field installed some need to go back to the OEM. > > I guess its something else we need to check on. > > Jay > > > > On Feb 7, 2024, at 9:06 AM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Read the warranty. Very limited uses to maintain coverage. Mfg by an > Italian Co that is somewhat condescending toward customers. But of course > East Penn is good to work with. My understanding is that they do work with > the three phase Sol-Ark inverters. > > Brad > > On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 4:52 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Pals: >> >> >> Anyone have any experience with this product, good or bad? >> >> >> https://www.mkbattery.com/products/energy-storage#deka >> >> >> We have had excellent results using their flooded and valve regulated >> lead-acid batteries. >> >> >> William >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Feb 8 08:45:44 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2024 06:45:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries In-Reply-To: <40059d54-7f28-4e8b-98d3-f5b04517e6a8@solarray.com> References: <40059d54-7f28-4e8b-98d3-f5b04517e6a8@solarray.com> Message-ID: <92078392-5426-465F-90A1-E1E08661B73C@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Thu Feb 8 09:28:23 2024 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2024 06:28:23 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries In-Reply-To: <92078392-5426-465F-90A1-E1E08661B73C@gmail.com> References: <40059d54-7f28-4e8b-98d3-f5b04517e6a8@solarray.com> <92078392-5426-465F-90A1-E1E08661B73C@gmail.com> Message-ID: I've been having the same thoughts about Li and off-grid systems. It used to be that I would install a system and then hear back from the clients a decade later when it was time for new batteries. Now, almost every other week I'm dealing with Li related issues (that I feel obligated to pay for). Same with all of the networking and IT and remote monitoring stuff. On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 5:46 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Ray > > I’m going more and more with same oem for systems with lithium. > Specifically so I don’t have an issue with finger pointing between OEMS. > > But that sure sucks. > > Jay > > > > On Feb 7, 2024, at 10:17 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > We just had a complete failure of a set of four Simpliphi 3.8 KWh > batteries, 48 v. It has completely changed my thoughts on Li+ for off > grid. This set lasted 5 years, which is about equal to bottom of the > barrel Golf Cart batteries. The RMA/ Warranty process has not been > smooth. It took almost a week to even get shipping info from Simpliphi, > and then another week to deal with Hazmat issues, and get Fed Ex to accept > used Li+ batteries for shipment. To their credit, tech support has been > knowledgeable, responsive, and available by phone while on site. > > Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but then a month ago, after > several days of cloudy weather, the system shut down due to low voltage. > (so far, fairly typical off grid winter situation) When the customer > started the generator and tried to revive the system, he noticed one of the > batteries didn't seem to be taking a charge, so after consulting with > Simpliphi, he charged each battery separately with a small aux charger. I > checked this charger and it was quite stable at a max of 58 v. By the time > I arrived, all 4 batteries would not accept even milliamps of charge > current. The BMSs had all disconnected the batteries from the buss, but > strangely there was residual voltage (51vdc) on the terminals. It was not > usable however, and crashed to 18 v upon connection to the inverter with no > loads. > > Simpliphi is claiming all the BMS units were fried due to a high voltage > event. Its winter, there was no lightning, and we had both the Outback > FM100 and the Schneider XW programmed according to the Simpliphi > integration guides. BTW, Simpliphi has no high voltage recording, they > just don't like the look of how their electronics fried. Electronics failed > = customer's fault. I think it failed because of the voltage differential > between the low battery voltage and normal charge voltage. If the BMS > can't survive in a typical off grid environment, with proper programming on > industry standard equipment, its not suitable for off grid applications. > Plenty of manus have decided to quit recommending their equipment for off > grid; its a tough gig. > > How many times have we all heard the old '*Manu S blaming Manu X'* snafu > on this list? Simpliphi is saying that the XW can have transient over > voltage events. Well, that should be mentioned in the integration guide, > so we can make an informed decision, and not use that inverter with their > batteries. > > So after paying about 5 times what a set of golf cart batteries would have > cost, my client is looking at having to buy a complete new set. That's > approx. *$1.60/ kWh of use from the old set*. Simpliphi is saying > they'll give us a discount on refurbished units; that is still to be seen. > The customer has been running on an old generator for the past 3 weeks in > sub zero weather at 9000 ft. Also, why would we want to reinstall more of > these, without any assurance that this won't happen again in a couple of > years? > > In 27 years in the off grid business, I have never dealt with such a > complete and sudden battery failure, or with such a rough RMA process, or > with such a poor warranty from a supposedly top tier manu. I thought I was > providing my customer with the best, but now good old flooded lead acid > batteries are all I'm considering for up coming installs. It's 2024, but > lead acid are a known quantity, and with proper maintenance are quite > robust and predictable. Even when they fail, there are plenty of warning > signs beforehand. They also can handle below freezing weather, and I am > just not a fan of the whole '*battery heating do it yourself off Ebay > with pet heaters'* BS either. > > *Li+ is just not ready for off grid.* It seems to work fine for folks > that don't rely on it, like GTB. > > At least if something like EG4 fails, its price point is not too far off > of lead acid. Simpliphi (now Briggs and Stratton) at almost $800/ kWh? We > were counting on you, we sold these batteries to many clients under the > guise that this was NOT a *'Fly by night/ made in China*' offering. > Based on cycle life, this should have lasted a lifetime. I hate being > wrong. I can only pray that more of these high price tag batteries don't > start failing on my watch. > > I've been holding this rant back for a while, trying to give Simpliphi a > chance to make this right. However, this week I heard their "diagnosis", > and then I saw Jay's timely post? I knew it was time. > > Sincerely, > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > On 2/7/2024 9:19 AM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > One of the things that I’m just now learning is about BMS > failure/warranty/fix/replacement. > > Some can be field installed some need to go back to the OEM. > > I guess its something else we need to check on. > > Jay > > > > On Feb 7, 2024, at 9:06 AM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Read the warranty. Very limited uses to maintain coverage. Mfg by an > Italian Co that is somewhat condescending toward customers. But of course > East Penn is good to work with. My understanding is that they do work with > the three phase Sol-Ark inverters. > > Brad > > On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 4:52 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Pals: >> >> >> Anyone have any experience with this product, good or bad? >> >> >> https://www.mkbattery.com/products/energy-storage#deka >> >> >> We have had excellent results using their flooded and valve regulated >> lead-acid batteries. >> >> >> William >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rich at solartechvt.com Thu Feb 8 09:35:56 2024 From: rich at solartechvt.com (Richard Nicol) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2024 09:35:56 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries In-Reply-To: <92078392-5426-465F-90A1-E1E08661B73C@gmail.com> References: <40059d54-7f28-4e8b-98d3-f5b04517e6a8@solarray.com> <92078392-5426-465F-90A1-E1E08661B73C@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Ray We had a complete failure of 6 Simpliphi batteries with the same symptoms you found. Another installer had replaced the inverter with an XW and appeared to leave the charger programing on factory defaults along with temp compensation so when the generator was called for it would rise to absorption at 57.6V. I considered that programming may have reverted to defaults too as the other installer in this case was experienced and respected. We have seen Magnum inverters with an ARC revert to default programming and we've seen Magnum 48v programming suddenly revert to precisely 1/4 of its settings - so it shifted to 12v values on its own?? Sometimes I find it's hard to trust the complexity of firmware and software (especially after having dealt with garbage like the outback skybox!) I too expected the bms to protect itself and shut down if the voltage was high enough to do damage. It seems ridiculous that it doesn't. You mentioned the aux charger is stable at 58v - if this charger was used in the past in additon to the XW it may be the culprit as 56v is typically the max for simpliphi - the integration guides started at 56v, then Simpliphi changed the recommendation to a lower voltage and longer duration, only to later revise charging recommendations back to 56v for a short duration. Lithium manufacturers drive very precise charging recommendations, but then we find that the equipment we use in off grid (outback/magnum/schneider/midnite) doesn't control as tightly or precisely as the battery manufacturer requires. Among the challenges we found was absolutely no infrastructure for disposal of the failed batteries.. Hope you find reasonable resolution - Thanks Rich On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 8:46 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Ray > > I’m going more and more with same oem for systems with lithium. > Specifically so I don’t have an issue with finger pointing between OEMS. > > But that sure sucks. > > Jay > > > > On Feb 7, 2024, at 10:17 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > We just had a complete failure of a set of four Simpliphi 3.8 KWh > batteries, 48 v. It has completely changed my thoughts on Li+ for off > grid. This set lasted 5 years, which is about equal to bottom of the > barrel Golf Cart batteries. The RMA/ Warranty process has not been > smooth. It took almost a week to even get shipping info from Simpliphi, > and then another week to deal with Hazmat issues, and get Fed Ex to accept > used Li+ batteries for shipment. To their credit, tech support has been > knowledgeable, responsive, and available by phone while on site. > > Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but then a month ago, after > several days of cloudy weather, the system shut down due to low voltage. > (so far, fairly typical off grid winter situation) When the customer > started the generator and tried to revive the system, he noticed one of the > batteries didn't seem to be taking a charge, so after consulting with > Simpliphi, he charged each battery separately with a small aux charger. I > checked this charger and it was quite stable at a max of 58 v. By the time > I arrived, all 4 batteries would not accept even milliamps of charge > current. The BMSs had all disconnected the batteries from the buss, but > strangely there was residual voltage (51vdc) on the terminals. It was not > usable however, and crashed to 18 v upon connection to the inverter with no > loads. > > Simpliphi is claiming all the BMS units were fried due to a high voltage > event. Its winter, there was no lightning, and we had both the Outback > FM100 and the Schneider XW programmed according to the Simpliphi > integration guides. BTW, Simpliphi has no high voltage recording, they > just don't like the look of how their electronics fried. Electronics failed > = customer's fault. I think it failed because of the voltage differential > between the low battery voltage and normal charge voltage. If the BMS > can't survive in a typical off grid environment, with proper programming on > industry standard equipment, its not suitable for off grid applications. > Plenty of manus have decided to quit recommending their equipment for off > grid; its a tough gig. > > How many times have we all heard the old '*Manu S blaming Manu X'* snafu > on this list? Simpliphi is saying that the XW can have transient over > voltage events. Well, that should be mentioned in the integration guide, > so we can make an informed decision, and not use that inverter with their > batteries. > > So after paying about 5 times what a set of golf cart batteries would have > cost, my client is looking at having to buy a complete new set. That's > approx. *$1.60/ kWh of use from the old set*. Simpliphi is saying > they'll give us a discount on refurbished units; that is still to be seen. > The customer has been running on an old generator for the past 3 weeks in > sub zero weather at 9000 ft. Also, why would we want to reinstall more of > these, without any assurance that this won't happen again in a couple of > years? > > In 27 years in the off grid business, I have never dealt with such a > complete and sudden battery failure, or with such a rough RMA process, or > with such a poor warranty from a supposedly top tier manu. I thought I was > providing my customer with the best, but now good old flooded lead acid > batteries are all I'm considering for up coming installs. It's 2024, but > lead acid are a known quantity, and with proper maintenance are quite > robust and predictable. Even when they fail, there are plenty of warning > signs beforehand. They also can handle below freezing weather, and I am > just not a fan of the whole '*battery heating do it yourself off Ebay > with pet heaters'* BS either. > > *Li+ is just not ready for off grid.* It seems to work fine for folks > that don't rely on it, like GTB. > > At least if something like EG4 fails, its price point is not too far off > of lead acid. Simpliphi (now Briggs and Stratton) at almost $800/ kWh? We > were counting on you, we sold these batteries to many clients under the > guise that this was NOT a *'Fly by night/ made in China*' offering. > Based on cycle life, this should have lasted a lifetime. I hate being > wrong. I can only pray that more of these high price tag batteries don't > start failing on my watch. > > I've been holding this rant back for a while, trying to give Simpliphi a > chance to make this right. However, this week I heard their "diagnosis", > and then I saw Jay's timely post? I knew it was time. > > Sincerely, > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > On 2/7/2024 9:19 AM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > One of the things that I’m just now learning is about BMS > failure/warranty/fix/replacement. > > Some can be field installed some need to go back to the OEM. > > I guess its something else we need to check on. > > Jay > > > > On Feb 7, 2024, at 9:06 AM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Read the warranty. Very limited uses to maintain coverage. Mfg by an > Italian Co that is somewhat condescending toward customers. But of course > East Penn is good to work with. My understanding is that they do work with > the three phase Sol-Ark inverters. > > Brad > > On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 4:52 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Pals: >> >> >> Anyone have any experience with this product, good or bad? >> >> >> https://www.mkbattery.com/products/energy-storage#deka >> >> >> We have had excellent results using their flooded and valve regulated >> lead-acid batteries. >> >> >> William >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Thu Feb 8 09:41:07 2024 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2024 09:41:07 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries In-Reply-To: <92078392-5426-465F-90A1-E1E08661B73C@gmail.com> References: <40059d54-7f28-4e8b-98d3-f5b04517e6a8@solarray.com> <92078392-5426-465F-90A1-E1E08661B73C@gmail.com> Message-ID: Ray, Oddly enough we're getting ready to replace our 22 year old 48v bank of Rolls Surrette batteries at our offgrid Design and Training Center in Western NY with a set of Lithium batteries.The reason for the jump to Lithium is because of the numerous request by clients for them over the past 5 year or so. By having them here onsite, this will give us a window into how they truly operate over time. Three questions I always ask manufacturers are, can the BMS firmware be upgraded in the field and/or can the BMS be swapped out in the field? Also is an internet connection required in order to receive warranty? FYI, Rolls lithium product is field swappable and does not require an internet connection. It seems every time we get close to making a choice on which lithium manufacturer to use something seems to steer us away. I couldn't agree more with Ray's statement. "but lead acid are a known quantity, and with proper maintenance are quite robust and predictable. Even when they fail, there are plenty of warning signs beforehand." Perhaps what the lithium manufacturers need to do is provide us installers with a "tool" that gives us a window into the BMS perhaps via a laptop. Maybe it already exists. A couple of years back we backed out of a couple of projects due to the fact the clients insisted on a lithium battery. I declined the projects as the temperature environment was wrong amongst other reasons too. I followed up with both projects a year later and both projects failed miserably and as Ray called it, the inverter manufacturer pointed the finger to the battery manufacturer and vice versa. Keep up the great work everyone and don't forget to donate to the wrenches list. Your Friendly Neighborhood Solar Guy, Christopher On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 8:46 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Ray > > I’m going more and more with same oem for systems with lithium. > Specifically so I don’t have an issue with finger pointing between OEMS. > > But that sure sucks. > > Jay > > > > On Feb 7, 2024, at 10:17 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > We just had a complete failure of a set of four Simpliphi 3.8 KWh > batteries, 48 v. It has completely changed my thoughts on Li+ for off > grid. This set lasted 5 years, which is about equal to bottom of the > barrel Golf Cart batteries. The RMA/ Warranty process has not been > smooth. It took almost a week to even get shipping info from Simpliphi, > and then another week to deal with Hazmat issues, and get Fed Ex to accept > used Li+ batteries for shipment. To their credit, tech support has been > knowledgeable, responsive, and available by phone while on site. > > Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but then a month ago, after > several days of cloudy weather, the system shut down due to low voltage. > (so far, fairly typical off grid winter situation) When the customer > started the generator and tried to revive the system, he noticed one of the > batteries didn't seem to be taking a charge, so after consulting with > Simpliphi, he charged each battery separately with a small aux charger. I > checked this charger and it was quite stable at a max of 58 v. By the time > I arrived, all 4 batteries would not accept even milliamps of charge > current. The BMSs had all disconnected the batteries from the buss, but > strangely there was residual voltage (51vdc) on the terminals. It was not > usable however, and crashed to 18 v upon connection to the inverter with no > loads. > > Simpliphi is claiming all the BMS units were fried due to a high voltage > event. Its winter, there was no lightning, and we had both the Outback > FM100 and the Schneider XW programmed according to the Simpliphi > integration guides. BTW, Simpliphi has no high voltage recording, they > just don't like the look of how their electronics fried. Electronics failed > = customer's fault. I think it failed because of the voltage differential > between the low battery voltage and normal charge voltage. If the BMS > can't survive in a typical off grid environment, with proper programming on > industry standard equipment, its not suitable for off grid applications. > Plenty of manus have decided to quit recommending their equipment for off > grid; its a tough gig. > > How many times have we all heard the old '*Manu S blaming Manu X'* snafu > on this list? Simpliphi is saying that the XW can have transient over > voltage events. Well, that should be mentioned in the integration guide, > so we can make an informed decision, and not use that inverter with their > batteries. > > So after paying about 5 times what a set of golf cart batteries would have > cost, my client is looking at having to buy a complete new set. That's > approx. *$1.60/ kWh of use from the old set*. Simpliphi is saying > they'll give us a discount on refurbished units; that is still to be seen. > The customer has been running on an old generator for the past 3 weeks in > sub zero weather at 9000 ft. Also, why would we want to reinstall more of > these, without any assurance that this won't happen again in a couple of > years? > > In 27 years in the off grid business, I have never dealt with such a > complete and sudden battery failure, or with such a rough RMA process, or > with such a poor warranty from a supposedly top tier manu. I thought I was > providing my customer with the best, but now good old flooded lead acid > batteries are all I'm considering for up coming installs. It's 2024, but > lead acid are a known quantity, and with proper maintenance are quite > robust and predictable. Even when they fail, there are plenty of warning > signs beforehand. They also can handle below freezing weather, and I am > just not a fan of the whole '*battery heating do it yourself off Ebay > with pet heaters'* BS either. > > *Li+ is just not ready for off grid.* It seems to work fine for folks > that don't rely on it, like GTB. > > At least if something like EG4 fails, its price point is not too far off > of lead acid. Simpliphi (now Briggs and Stratton) at almost $800/ kWh? We > were counting on you, we sold these batteries to many clients under the > guise that this was NOT a *'Fly by night/ made in China*' offering. > Based on cycle life, this should have lasted a lifetime. I hate being > wrong. I can only pray that more of these high price tag batteries don't > start failing on my watch. > > I've been holding this rant back for a while, trying to give Simpliphi a > chance to make this right. However, this week I heard their "diagnosis", > and then I saw Jay's timely post? I knew it was time. > > Sincerely, > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > On 2/7/2024 9:19 AM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > One of the things that I’m just now learning is about BMS > failure/warranty/fix/replacement. > > Some can be field installed some need to go back to the OEM. > > I guess its something else we need to check on. > > Jay > > > > On Feb 7, 2024, at 9:06 AM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Read the warranty. Very limited uses to maintain coverage. Mfg by an > Italian Co that is somewhat condescending toward customers. But of course > East Penn is good to work with. My understanding is that they do work with > the three phase Sol-Ark inverters. > > Brad > > On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 4:52 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Pals: >> >> >> Anyone have any experience with this product, good or bad? >> >> >> https://www.mkbattery.com/products/energy-storage#deka >> >> >> We have had excellent results using their flooded and valve regulated >> lead-acid batteries. >> >> >> William >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Thu Feb 8 12:28:25 2024 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2024 11:28:25 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries In-Reply-To: References: <40059d54-7f28-4e8b-98d3-f5b04517e6a8@solarray.com> <92078392-5426-465F-90A1-E1E08661B73C@gmail.com> Message-ID: About 4 years ago I wrote about my failure of Simplify in service 3 years. after much delay, I took each unit to shop and charged each one on bench power supply, all returned to full function and are still working today off grid system. I agree with the comments they are tricky, MorningStar knows how to charge them. On Thu, Feb 8, 2024, 8:42 AM Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Ray, > > Oddly enough we're getting ready to replace our 22 year old 48v bank of > Rolls Surrette batteries at our offgrid Design and Training Center in > Western NY with a set of Lithium batteries.The reason for the jump to > Lithium is because of the numerous request by clients for them over the > past 5 year or so. By having them here onsite, this will give us a window > into how they truly operate over time. > > Three questions I always ask manufacturers are, can the BMS firmware be > upgraded in the field and/or can the BMS be swapped out in the field? Also > is an internet connection required in order to receive warranty? FYI, Rolls > lithium product is field swappable and does not require an internet > connection. It seems every time we get close to making a choice on which > lithium manufacturer to use something seems to steer us away. > > I couldn't agree more with Ray's statement. "but lead acid are a known > quantity, and with proper maintenance are quite robust and predictable. > Even when they fail, there are plenty of warning signs beforehand." Perhaps > what the lithium manufacturers need to do is provide us installers with a > "tool" that gives us a window into the BMS perhaps via a laptop. Maybe it > already exists. > > A couple of years back we backed out of a couple of projects due to the > fact the clients insisted on a lithium battery. I declined the projects as > the temperature environment was wrong amongst other reasons too. I followed > up with both projects a year later and both projects failed miserably and > as Ray called it, the inverter manufacturer pointed the finger to the > battery manufacturer and vice versa. > > Keep up the great work everyone and don't forget to donate to the wrenches > list. > > Your Friendly Neighborhood Solar Guy, > Christopher > > On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 8:46 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi Ray >> >> I’m going more and more with same oem for systems with lithium. >> Specifically so I don’t have an issue with finger pointing between OEMS. >> >> But that sure sucks. >> >> Jay >> >> >> >> On Feb 7, 2024, at 10:17 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> >> We just had a complete failure of a set of four Simpliphi 3.8 KWh >> batteries, 48 v. It has completely changed my thoughts on Li+ for off >> grid. This set lasted 5 years, which is about equal to bottom of the >> barrel Golf Cart batteries. The RMA/ Warranty process has not been >> smooth. It took almost a week to even get shipping info from Simpliphi, >> and then another week to deal with Hazmat issues, and get Fed Ex to accept >> used Li+ batteries for shipment. To their credit, tech support has been >> knowledgeable, responsive, and available by phone while on site. >> >> Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but then a month ago, after >> several days of cloudy weather, the system shut down due to low voltage. >> (so far, fairly typical off grid winter situation) When the customer >> started the generator and tried to revive the system, he noticed one of the >> batteries didn't seem to be taking a charge, so after consulting with >> Simpliphi, he charged each battery separately with a small aux charger. I >> checked this charger and it was quite stable at a max of 58 v. By the time >> I arrived, all 4 batteries would not accept even milliamps of charge >> current. The BMSs had all disconnected the batteries from the buss, but >> strangely there was residual voltage (51vdc) on the terminals. It was not >> usable however, and crashed to 18 v upon connection to the inverter with no >> loads. >> >> Simpliphi is claiming all the BMS units were fried due to a high voltage >> event. Its winter, there was no lightning, and we had both the Outback >> FM100 and the Schneider XW programmed according to the Simpliphi >> integration guides. BTW, Simpliphi has no high voltage recording, they >> just don't like the look of how their electronics fried. Electronics failed >> = customer's fault. I think it failed because of the voltage differential >> between the low battery voltage and normal charge voltage. If the BMS >> can't survive in a typical off grid environment, with proper programming on >> industry standard equipment, its not suitable for off grid applications. >> Plenty of manus have decided to quit recommending their equipment for off >> grid; its a tough gig. >> >> How many times have we all heard the old '*Manu S blaming Manu X'* snafu >> on this list? Simpliphi is saying that the XW can have transient over >> voltage events. Well, that should be mentioned in the integration guide, >> so we can make an informed decision, and not use that inverter with their >> batteries. >> >> So after paying about 5 times what a set of golf cart batteries would >> have cost, my client is looking at having to buy a complete new set. >> That's approx. *$1.60/ kWh of use from the old set*. Simpliphi is >> saying they'll give us a discount on refurbished units; that is still to be >> seen. The customer has been running on an old generator for the past 3 >> weeks in sub zero weather at 9000 ft. Also, why would we want to reinstall >> more of these, without any assurance that this won't happen again in a >> couple of years? >> >> In 27 years in the off grid business, I have never dealt with such a >> complete and sudden battery failure, or with such a rough RMA process, or >> with such a poor warranty from a supposedly top tier manu. I thought I was >> providing my customer with the best, but now good old flooded lead acid >> batteries are all I'm considering for up coming installs. It's 2024, but >> lead acid are a known quantity, and with proper maintenance are quite >> robust and predictable. Even when they fail, there are plenty of warning >> signs beforehand. They also can handle below freezing weather, and I am >> just not a fan of the whole '*battery heating do it yourself off Ebay >> with pet heaters'* BS either. >> >> *Li+ is just not ready for off grid.* It seems to work fine for folks >> that don't rely on it, like GTB. >> >> At least if something like EG4 fails, its price point is not too far off >> of lead acid. Simpliphi (now Briggs and Stratton) at almost $800/ kWh? We >> were counting on you, we sold these batteries to many clients under the >> guise that this was NOT a *'Fly by night/ made in China*' offering. >> Based on cycle life, this should have lasted a lifetime. I hate being >> wrong. I can only pray that more of these high price tag batteries don't >> start failing on my watch. >> >> I've been holding this rant back for a while, trying to give Simpliphi a >> chance to make this right. However, this week I heard their "diagnosis", >> and then I saw Jay's timely post? I knew it was time. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> On 2/7/2024 9:19 AM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> One of the things that I’m just now learning is about BMS >> failure/warranty/fix/replacement. >> >> Some can be field installed some need to go back to the OEM. >> >> I guess its something else we need to check on. >> >> Jay >> >> >> >> On Feb 7, 2024, at 9:06 AM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Read the warranty. Very limited uses to maintain coverage. Mfg by an >> Italian Co that is somewhat condescending toward customers. But of course >> East Penn is good to work with. My understanding is that they do work with >> the three phase Sol-Ark inverters. >> >> Brad >> >> On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 4:52 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Pals: >>> >>> >>> Anyone have any experience with this product, good or bad? >>> >>> >>> https://www.mkbattery.com/products/energy-storage#deka >>> >>> >>> We have had excellent results using their flooded and valve regulated >>> lead-acid batteries. >>> >>> >>> William >>> >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. 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URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Feb 8 14:32:16 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2024 12:32:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries In-Reply-To: References: <40059d54-7f28-4e8b-98d3-f5b04517e6a8@solarray.com> <92078392-5426-465F-90A1-E1E08661B73C@gmail.com> Message-ID: The auxiliary charger was only used after Simpliphi recommended it.  This was also a requirement before they would even issue an RMA: charge each battery individually for 2 hours with a separate DC power supply or battery charger.  That's 8 hours total on site by the way, and another problem I had with their overall warranty process.   Every step of the way was one delay effort after another.  Even this week, they broke the news to me that I wasn't getting a warranty for my customer, because of "high voltage". I mentioned that I thought it was due to a voltage differential between the the batteries at very low SOC and voltage, and not that the charger had inadvertently exceeded high voltage limits. Another 3 days of no communication has ensued, as they check with engineering. Basically, its like Boeing's 737 Max; if there's a problem with even 1 out of 200 systems, its not acceptable. Simpliphi is obligated to: A) Put it in writing that the warranty is voided if we use XW inverters or older FM 80 charge controllers.  (2 units mentioned specifically that they had seen this happen with before) or  B)  Fix their BMS, so it is robust enough to survive in systems that otherwise work fine with other batteries. or C) Honor the warranty and take the hit 1 out of 200 times that it doesn't work out. Simpliphi  knew there was a problem, and hid it from installers, because they didn't want to lose sales. Then when there is a failure after the sale, they blow us off with repeated delays, and their vaporware 10 year warranty.  The fact that Briggs &Stratton is part of this now, just points to the usual penny pinching in a corporation after consolidation. I hope I'm wrong, I will report to the Wrenches list as to what transpires.  Right now, I'm shopping for SLA batteries to get this customer back in action. Reporting as always from the Bleeding Edge, Ray Walters Remote Solar On 2/8/2024 7:35 AM, Richard Nicol via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Ray > We had a complete failure of 6 Simpliphi batteries with the same > symptoms you found. > Another installer had replaced the inverter with an XW and appeared to > leave the charger programing on factory defaults along with temp > compensation so when the generator was called for it would rise to > absorption at 57.6V. I considered that programming may have reverted > to defaults too as the other installer in this case was experienced > and respected. We have seen Magnum inverters with an ARC revert to > default programming and we've seen Magnum 48v programming > suddenly revert to precisely 1/4 of its settings - so it shifted to > 12v values on its own?? Sometimes I find it's hard to trust the > complexity of firmware and software (especially after having dealt > with garbage like the outback skybox!) > > I too expected the bms to protect itself and shut down if the voltage > was high enough to do damage. It seems ridiculous that it doesn't. > > You mentioned the aux charger is stable at 58v  - if this charger was > used in the past in additon to the XW it may be the culprit as 56v is > typically the max for simpliphi - the integration guides started at > 56v, then Simpliphi changed the recommendation to a lower voltage and > longer duration, only to later revise charging recommendations back to > 56v for a short duration. > > Lithium manufacturers drive very precise charging recommendations, but > then we find that the equipment we use in off grid > (outback/magnum/schneider/midnite) doesn't control as tightly or > precisely  as the battery manufacturer requires. > > Among the challenges we found was absolutely no infrastructure  for > disposal of the failed batteries.. > > Hope you find reasonable resolution - > Thanks > Rich > > > On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 8:46 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi Ray > > I’m going more and more with same oem for systems with lithium. > Specifically so I don’t have an issue with finger pointing between > OEMS. > > But that sure sucks. > > Jay > > > >> On Feb 7, 2024, at 10:17 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >>  >> >> We just had a complete failure of a set of four Simpliphi 3.8 KWh >> batteries, 48 v.  It has completely changed my thoughts on Li+ >> for off grid.  This set lasted 5 years, which is about equal to >> bottom of the barrel Golf Cart batteries.  The RMA/ Warranty >> process has not been smooth.  It took almost a week to even get >> shipping info from Simpliphi, and then another week to deal with >> Hazmat issues, and get Fed Ex to accept used Li+ batteries for >> shipment.  To their credit, tech support has been knowledgeable, >> responsive, and available by phone while on site. >> >>  Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but then a month >> ago, after several days of cloudy weather, the system shut down >> due to low voltage. (so far, fairly typical off grid winter >> situation) When the customer started the generator and tried to >> revive the system, he noticed one of the batteries didn't seem to >> be taking a charge, so after consulting with Simpliphi, he >> charged each battery separately with a small aux charger.  I >> checked this charger and it was quite stable at a max of 58 v.  >> By the time I arrived, all 4 batteries would not accept even >> milliamps of charge current. The BMSs had all disconnected the >> batteries from the buss, but strangely there was residual voltage >> (51vdc) on the terminals.  It was not usable however, and crashed >> to 18 v upon connection to the inverter with no loads. >> >> Simpliphi is claiming all the BMS units were fried due to a high >> voltage event.  Its winter, there was no lightning, and we had >> both the Outback FM100 and the Schneider XW programmed according >> to the Simpliphi integration guides.   BTW, Simpliphi has no high >> voltage recording, they just don't like the look of how their >> electronics fried. Electronics failed = customer's fault.  I >> think it failed because of the voltage differential between the >> low battery voltage and normal charge voltage.  If  the BMS can't >> survive in a typical off grid environment, with proper >> programming on industry standard equipment, its not suitable for >> off grid applications.  Plenty of manus have decided to quit >> recommending their equipment for off grid; its a tough gig. >> >> How many times have we all heard the old '/Manu S blaming Manu >> X'/ snafu on this list?  Simpliphi is saying that the XW can have >> transient over voltage events.  Well, that should be mentioned in >> the integration guide, so we can make an informed decision, and >> not use that inverter with their batteries. >> >> So after paying about 5 times what a set of golf cart batteries >> would have cost, my client is looking at having to buy a complete >> new set.  That's approx. *$1.60/ kWh of use from the old set*.  >> Simpliphi is saying they'll give us a discount on refurbished >> units; that is still to be seen.  The customer has been running >> on an old generator for the past 3 weeks in sub zero weather at >> 9000 ft.  Also, why would we want to reinstall more of these, >> without any assurance that this won't happen again in a couple of >> years? >> >> In 27 years in the off grid business, I have never dealt with >> such a complete and sudden battery failure, or with such a rough >> RMA process, or with such a poor warranty from a supposedly top >> tier manu.  I thought I was providing my customer with the best, >> but now good old flooded lead acid batteries are all I'm >> considering for up coming installs.  It's 2024, but lead acid are >> a known quantity, and with proper maintenance are quite robust >> and predictable.  Even when they fail, there are plenty of >> warning signs beforehand.  They also can handle below freezing >> weather, and I am just not a fan of the whole '/battery heating >> do it yourself off Ebay with pet heaters'/ BS either. >> >> *Li+ is just not ready for off grid.*  It seems to work fine for >> folks that don't rely on it, like GTB. >> >> At least if something like EG4 fails, its price point is not too >> far off of lead acid.   Simpliphi (now Briggs and Stratton) at >> almost $800/ kWh? We were counting on you, we sold these >> batteries to many clients under the guise that this was NOT a >> /'Fly by night/ made in China/' offering.  Based on cycle life, >> this should have lasted a lifetime.  I hate being wrong.  I can >> only pray that more of these high price tag batteries don't start >> failing on my watch. >> >> I've been holding this rant back for a while, trying to give >> Simpliphi a chance to make this right. However, this week I heard >> their "diagnosis", and then I saw Jay's timely post? I knew it >> was time.  >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> >> On 2/7/2024 9:19 AM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> One of the things that I’m just now learning is about BMS >>> failure/warranty/fix/replacement. >>> >>> Some can be field installed some need to go back to the OEM. >>> >>> I guess its something else we need to check on. >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Feb 7, 2024, at 9:06 AM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Read the warranty. Very limited uses to maintain coverage. Mfg >>>> by an Italian Co that is somewhat condescending toward >>>> customers. But of course East Penn is good to work with. My >>>> understanding is that they do work with the three phase Sol-Ark >>>> inverters. >>>> >>>> Brad >>>> >>>> On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 4:52 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Pals: >>>> >>>> >>>> Anyone have any experience with this product, good or bad? >>>> >>>> >>>> https://www.mkbattery.com/products/energy-storage#deka >>>> >>>> >>>> We have had excellent results using their flooded and valve >>>> regulated lead-acid batteries. >>>> >>>> >>>> William >>>> >>>> >>>> Miller Solar >>>> >>>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>>> >>>> 805-438-5600 >>>> >>>> www.millersolar.com >>>> >>>> CA Lic. 773985 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>>> work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>>> work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >> try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Feb 8 16:39:12 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2024 14:39:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries In-Reply-To: References: <40059d54-7f28-4e8b-98d3-f5b04517e6a8@solarray.com> <92078392-5426-465F-90A1-E1E08661B73C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8281ac79-97f7-485a-b2bf-e6b86063653d@solarray.com> Hi Richard; Off list, what was your outcome from Simpliphi?  Did they make any deal with you?  What did you put in as replacements? Thanks, Ray Walters Remote Solar On 2/8/2024 7:35 AM, Richard Nicol via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Ray > We had a complete failure of 6 Simpliphi batteries with the same > symptoms you found. > Another installer had replaced the inverter with an XW and appeared to > leave the charger programing on factory defaults along with temp > compensation so when the generator was called for it would rise to > absorption at 57.6V. I considered that programming may have reverted > to defaults too as the other installer in this case was experienced > and respected. We have seen Magnum inverters with an ARC revert to > default programming and we've seen Magnum 48v programming > suddenly revert to precisely 1/4 of its settings - so it shifted to > 12v values on its own?? Sometimes I find it's hard to trust the > complexity of firmware and software (especially after having dealt > with garbage like the outback skybox!) > > I too expected the bms to protect itself and shut down if the voltage > was high enough to do damage. It seems ridiculous that it doesn't. > > You mentioned the aux charger is stable at 58v  - if this charger was > used in the past in additon to the XW it may be the culprit as 56v is > typically the max for simpliphi - the integration guides started at > 56v, then Simpliphi changed the recommendation to a lower voltage and > longer duration, only to later revise charging recommendations back to > 56v for a short duration. > > Lithium manufacturers drive very precise charging recommendations, but > then we find that the equipment we use in off grid > (outback/magnum/schneider/midnite) doesn't control as tightly or > precisely  as the battery manufacturer requires. > > Among the challenges we found was absolutely no infrastructure  for > disposal of the failed batteries.. > > Hope you find reasonable resolution - > Thanks > Rich > > > On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 8:46 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi Ray > > I’m going more and more with same oem for systems with lithium. > Specifically so I don’t have an issue with finger pointing between > OEMS. > > But that sure sucks. > > Jay > > > >> On Feb 7, 2024, at 10:17 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >>  >> >> We just had a complete failure of a set of four Simpliphi 3.8 KWh >> batteries, 48 v.  It has completely changed my thoughts on Li+ >> for off grid.  This set lasted 5 years, which is about equal to >> bottom of the barrel Golf Cart batteries.  The RMA/ Warranty >> process has not been smooth.  It took almost a week to even get >> shipping info from Simpliphi, and then another week to deal with >> Hazmat issues, and get Fed Ex to accept used Li+ batteries for >> shipment.  To their credit, tech support has been knowledgeable, >> responsive, and available by phone while on site. >> >>  Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but then a month >> ago, after several days of cloudy weather, the system shut down >> due to low voltage. (so far, fairly typical off grid winter >> situation) When the customer started the generator and tried to >> revive the system, he noticed one of the batteries didn't seem to >> be taking a charge, so after consulting with Simpliphi, he >> charged each battery separately with a small aux charger.  I >> checked this charger and it was quite stable at a max of 58 v.  >> By the time I arrived, all 4 batteries would not accept even >> milliamps of charge current. The BMSs had all disconnected the >> batteries from the buss, but strangely there was residual voltage >> (51vdc) on the terminals.  It was not usable however, and crashed >> to 18 v upon connection to the inverter with no loads. >> >> Simpliphi is claiming all the BMS units were fried due to a high >> voltage event.  Its winter, there was no lightning, and we had >> both the Outback FM100 and the Schneider XW programmed according >> to the Simpliphi integration guides.   BTW, Simpliphi has no high >> voltage recording, they just don't like the look of how their >> electronics fried. Electronics failed = customer's fault.  I >> think it failed because of the voltage differential between the >> low battery voltage and normal charge voltage.  If  the BMS can't >> survive in a typical off grid environment, with proper >> programming on industry standard equipment, its not suitable for >> off grid applications.  Plenty of manus have decided to quit >> recommending their equipment for off grid; its a tough gig. >> >> How many times have we all heard the old '/Manu S blaming Manu >> X'/ snafu on this list?  Simpliphi is saying that the XW can have >> transient over voltage events.  Well, that should be mentioned in >> the integration guide, so we can make an informed decision, and >> not use that inverter with their batteries. >> >> So after paying about 5 times what a set of golf cart batteries >> would have cost, my client is looking at having to buy a complete >> new set.  That's approx. *$1.60/ kWh of use from the old set*.  >> Simpliphi is saying they'll give us a discount on refurbished >> units; that is still to be seen.  The customer has been running >> on an old generator for the past 3 weeks in sub zero weather at >> 9000 ft.  Also, why would we want to reinstall more of these, >> without any assurance that this won't happen again in a couple of >> years? >> >> In 27 years in the off grid business, I have never dealt with >> such a complete and sudden battery failure, or with such a rough >> RMA process, or with such a poor warranty from a supposedly top >> tier manu.  I thought I was providing my customer with the best, >> but now good old flooded lead acid batteries are all I'm >> considering for up coming installs.  It's 2024, but lead acid are >> a known quantity, and with proper maintenance are quite robust >> and predictable.  Even when they fail, there are plenty of >> warning signs beforehand.  They also can handle below freezing >> weather, and I am just not a fan of the whole '/battery heating >> do it yourself off Ebay with pet heaters'/ BS either. >> >> *Li+ is just not ready for off grid.*  It seems to work fine for >> folks that don't rely on it, like GTB. >> >> At least if something like EG4 fails, its price point is not too >> far off of lead acid.   Simpliphi (now Briggs and Stratton) at >> almost $800/ kWh? We were counting on you, we sold these >> batteries to many clients under the guise that this was NOT a >> /'Fly by night/ made in China/' offering.  Based on cycle life, >> this should have lasted a lifetime.  I hate being wrong.  I can >> only pray that more of these high price tag batteries don't start >> failing on my watch. >> >> I've been holding this rant back for a while, trying to give >> Simpliphi a chance to make this right. However, this week I heard >> their "diagnosis", and then I saw Jay's timely post? I knew it >> was time.  >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> >> On 2/7/2024 9:19 AM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> One of the things that I’m just now learning is about BMS >>> failure/warranty/fix/replacement. >>> >>> Some can be field installed some need to go back to the OEM. >>> >>> I guess its something else we need to check on. >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Feb 7, 2024, at 9:06 AM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Read the warranty. Very limited uses to maintain coverage. Mfg >>>> by an Italian Co that is somewhat condescending toward >>>> customers. But of course East Penn is good to work with. My >>>> understanding is that they do work with the three phase Sol-Ark >>>> inverters. >>>> >>>> Brad >>>> >>>> On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 4:52 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Pals: >>>> >>>> >>>> Anyone have any experience with this product, good or bad? >>>> >>>> >>>> https://www.mkbattery.com/products/energy-storage#deka >>>> >>>> >>>> We have had excellent results using their flooded and valve >>>> regulated lead-acid batteries. >>>> >>>> >>>> William >>>> >>>> >>>> Miller Solar >>>> >>>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>>> >>>> 805-438-5600 >>>> >>>> www.millersolar.com >>>> >>>> CA Lic. 773985 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>>> work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>>> work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >> try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at ecologicalsystems.biz Thu Feb 8 16:46:18 2024 From: sky at ecologicalsystems.biz (Sky Sims) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2024 16:46:18 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: Cantilevered array In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri Feb 9 11:05:34 2024 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2024 11:05:34 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20fa293e8ba0deb2f52ba7ab1c8630d0@redwoodalliance.org> How does the lack of accuracy in SOC detection affect the usefulness of closed loop systems? _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ On 2024-02-05 11:36, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > Jason: > > I am careful about getting my clients too dependent on SOC readings. SOC is a calculated value based on changing variables and is notoriously inaccurate. > > Below is a screenshot of the Optics reporting for a client. The graph line that begins as the lower of the two is the SOC, the other is voltage. The SOC is out of calibration until about noon when it jumps from about 20% to about 80%. This does not mean the SOC changed by that amount, it means that it was just very wrong. Who knows when it is correct? > > In spite of repeated entreaties this client still reads the SOC and becomes concerned when it gets low-- even if the voltage level indicates the batteries are well charged. I have to deal with his misplaced anxiety. > > This problem appears to occur across all battery/inverter technology. For example, SMA touts their "coulomb counting" as more accurate than others but I have witnessed otherwise. You'd think that BMS units built by lithium manufacturers for their own products would be consistently accurate but even those BMS units need to recalibrate frequently, this according to the battery manufacturer's engineers. > > It would be nice to offer clients a simple, accurate method of ascertaining battery charge levels. SOC is not that method. I train my clients to watch voltage levels and to understand these values are elastic. If you can see trends in the battery voltage, so much the better. This is why I like the Outback Optics interface. This is also why a good AGS system examines battery voltage over time. > > I no longer install Outback FNDC units. Without them there is no SOC reading. I don't install Sunny Island systems--they are SOC centered and suffer for it. > > William > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com [1] > > CA Lic. 773985 > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > Sent: Sunday, February 4, 2024 7:30 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Jason Szumlanski > Subject: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark > > Are there any off the shelf solutions to view battery SOC via a wired meter mounted remotely on a property? I have a client with a simple voltage based meter for lead acid batteries that they are accustomed to using as a quick and approximate gauge of SOC. They want something similar for their new Sol-Ark with EG4 LL batteries. > > They will have smartphone app visibility, but they want something they can see inside the house without picking up a phone or going out to the inverter. Ideally the SOC will come from the inverter or the battery itself, not an external source (to avoid discrepancies). > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.millersolar.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 79876 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 739 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image007.png Type: image/png Size: 701 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.emz Type: application/octet-stream Size: 1645 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.emz Type: application/octet-stream Size: 1698 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bruce at mendocinosolar.com Fri Feb 9 11:56:25 2024 From: bruce at mendocinosolar.com (Bruce Erickson) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2024 08:56:25 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: <20fa293e8ba0deb2f52ba7ab1c8630d0@redwoodalliance.org> References: <20fa293e8ba0deb2f52ba7ab1c8630d0@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <604D058A-50FC-4602-980A-67A9CC691902@mendocinosolar.com> William, I have had the same frustration with attempting to train customers to monitor voltage, and to treat SOC with suspicion. Some people are capable of getting it, some just aren’t. Off-grid life is tougher for those folks, and for their solar contractors. “I don’t understand why I lost power—the Trimetric says 75%!” “Have you looked at at the voltage?” “The what?” Part of the problem is that we as consumers have been trained to believe the SOC numbers on our smart phones. I know I believe mine. We just got an electric car and same deal. Went on our first road trip, and of course had no choice but to manage charging based on the nice percent numbers on the screen. But in both cases, those devices seem to track battery state reasonably well. Too bad solar battery manus can’t do whatever Apple and Volkswagen et al can do. Bruce Erickson Mendocino Solar Service 707-937-1701 PO Box 1252 Mendocino, CA 95460 "Serving the Solar System" > On Feb 9, 2024, at 8:05 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > > How does the lack of accuracy in SOC detection affect the usefulness of closed loop systems? > > > Drake Chamberlin > > Athens Electric LLC > > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > > > On 2024-02-05 11:36, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> Jason: >> >> I am careful about getting my clients too dependent on SOC readings. SOC is a calculated value based on changing variables and is notoriously inaccurate. >> >> Below is a screenshot of the Optics reporting for a client. The graph line that begins as the lower of the two is the SOC, the other is voltage. The SOC is out of calibration until about noon when it jumps from about 20% to about 80%. This does not mean the SOC changed by that amount, it means that it was just very wrong. Who knows when it is correct? >> >> In spite of repeated entreaties this client still reads the SOC and becomes concerned when it gets low-- even if the voltage level indicates the batteries are well charged. I have to deal with his misplaced anxiety. >> >> >> >> >> This problem appears to occur across all battery/inverter technology. For example, SMA touts their "coulomb counting" as more accurate than others but I have witnessed otherwise. You'd think that BMS units built by lithium manufacturers for their own products would be consistently accurate but even those BMS units need to recalibrate frequently, this according to the battery manufacturer's engineers. >> >> It would be nice to offer clients a simple, accurate method of ascertaining battery charge levels. SOC is not that method. I train my clients to watch voltage levels and to understand these values are elastic. If you can see trends in the battery voltage, so much the better. This is why I like the Outback Optics interface. This is also why a good AGS system examines battery voltage over time. >> >> I no longer install Outback FNDC units. Without them there is no SOC reading. I don't install Sunny Island systems—they are SOC centered and suffer for it. >> >> William >> >> Miller Solar >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches >> Sent: Sunday, February 4, 2024 7:30 AM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Cc: Jason Szumlanski >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark >> >> Are there any off the shelf solutions to view battery SOC via a wired meter mounted remotely on a property? I have a client with a simple voltage based meter for lead acid batteries that they are accustomed to using as a quick and approximate gauge of SOC. They want something similar for their new Sol-Ark with EG4 LL batteries. >> >> They will have smartphone app visibility, but they want something they can see inside the house without picking up a phone or going out to the inverter. Ideally the SOC will come from the inverter or the battery itself, not an external source (to avoid discrepancies). >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: logo.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5686 bytes Desc: not available URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri Feb 9 12:27:35 2024 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2024 10:27:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] In search of better generator start relay for Outback system Message-ID: Esteemed Wrenches - Finally successfully troubleshot an intermittent AGS problem that has been nagging one of my remote-grid clients for 1.5 winters now. Of course it's a 4-hour drive from my office. During winter snowstorms (when they need the AGS the most of course) the generator had only about 50:50 chance of starting. So I'd travel to the site (sometimes just the client would do it and I'd guide him by phone), pull up the Gen menu on the Mate 3S, hit ON and it wouldn't start. No bueno. Walk up to the generator (propane with Honda engine) and verify it's on Auto. Start it with the main switch to ON, starts right up, so not a gen battery problem. Run it for an hour or so, stop it with the switch on the gen, put it back to Auto, and everything works perfectly from Mate 3S AGS for 1-2 days, including remote start from OpticsRE. Then the problem (sometimes) comes up again when nobody is there. I just happened to hit the site at exactly the right time last week right as a big snowstorm was moving in, and was finally able to figure it out with really good raingear and a multimeter: The Outback Flexware remote gen start relay OBR-16-DIN was icing up internally, I had added it in the gen compartment when we upgraded the client from an old Trace SW to an Outback (SW had a big AGS relay, Outback sent a 12VDC signal to trigger the external relay we added). DIAG - new Outback OBR-16-DIN relay would get frosty internally when high humidity snowstorms would move in, that's why it sometimes didn't work from the Mate 3S or OpticsRE. Run the gen for an hour, the internal gen compartment warms up, the frost melts off of the relay, then all the AGS from Mate 3S and OpticsRE works fine. Have any of all y'all run into this problem, and is there a more reliable relay to use that won't ice up? not outside exposed to weather, but inside the outside gen enclosure. I have zero space available in the VFX MNDC enclosure in the house to put in the Flexware AGS relay, it would need a separate enclosure. The easiest solution I can see is just find a relay to fit into the gen compartment that does the same as the Outback version, but doesn't ice up. Thanks in advance for any and all suggestions. Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Feb 9 12:28:40 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2024 09:28:40 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: <20fa293e8ba0deb2f52ba7ab1c8630d0@redwoodalliance.org> References: <20fa293e8ba0deb2f52ba7ab1c8630d0@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Hi Drake, I do not think there is a lack of accuracy in a good closed loop LFP battery system. The steep curve of Lithium is just not accurate for voltage and the Soc measurement from a quality BMS is super accurate. All I use is the Discover AES and unlike others here, I do not have any issues over 4 years and 45 mostly Offgrid homes. The closed loop UL 9540 systems save alot of fuel in generator use, are simple, and have happy clients for me. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [2]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [3] [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-02-09 8:05 am, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > How does the lack of accuracy in SOC detection affect the usefulness of > closed loop systems? > > _Drake Chamberlin_ > > _Athens Electric LLC_ > > _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ > > _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ > > On 2024-02-05 11:36, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> Jason: >> >> I am careful about getting my clients too dependent on SOC readings. >> SOC is a calculated value based on changing variables and is >> notoriously inaccurate. >> >> Below is a screenshot of the Optics reporting for a client. The graph >> line that begins as the lower of the two is the SOC, the other is >> voltage. The SOC is out of calibration until about noon when it jumps >> from about 20% to about 80%. This does not mean the SOC changed by >> that amount, it means that it was just very wrong. Who knows when it >> is correct? >> >> In spite of repeated entreaties this client still reads the SOC and >> becomes concerned when it gets low-- even if the voltage level >> indicates the batteries are well charged. I have to deal with his >> misplaced anxiety. >> >> This problem appears to occur across all battery/inverter technology. >> For example, SMA touts their "coulomb counting" as more accurate than >> others but I have witnessed otherwise. You'd think that BMS units >> built by lithium manufacturers for their own products would be >> consistently accurate but even those BMS units need to recalibrate >> frequently, this according to the battery manufacturer's engineers. >> >> It would be nice to offer clients a simple, accurate method of >> ascertaining battery charge levels. SOC is not that method. I train >> my clients to watch voltage levels and to understand these values are >> elastic. If you can see trends in the battery voltage, so much the >> better. This is why I like the Outback Optics interface. This is also >> why a good AGS system examines battery voltage over time. >> >> I no longer install Outback FNDC units. Without them there is no SOC >> reading. I don't install Sunny Island systems--they are SOC centered >> and suffer for it. >> >> William >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com [1] >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] >> On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches >> Sent: Sunday, February 4, 2024 7:30 AM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Cc: Jason Szumlanski >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark >> >> Are there any off the shelf solutions to view battery SOC via a wired >> meter mounted remotely on a property? I have a client with a simple >> voltage based meter for lead acid batteries that they are accustomed >> to using as a quick and approximate gauge of SOC. They want something >> similar for their new Sol-Ark with EG4 LL batteries. >> >> They will have smartphone app visibility, but they want something they >> can see inside the house without picking up a phone or going out to >> the inverter. Ideally the SOC will come from the inverter or the >> battery itself, not an external source (to avoid discrepancies). >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.millersolar.com/ [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: UL9540-Energy-Storage-Systems-Information_990-91534 (1) (1).pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 499575 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Fri Feb 9 13:26:55 2024 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2024 13:26:55 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] In search of better generator start relay for Outback system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: G'day Dan, I've been using the Dorman 5 pin, 30A 12v relay, p/n 88069 for several years. I've found them at Auto Zone or sometimes I just buy them online. Good Luck, Christopher On Fri, Feb 9, 2024 at 12:28 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Esteemed Wrenches - Finally successfully troubleshot an intermittent AGS > problem that has been nagging one of my remote-grid clients for 1.5 winters > now. Of course it's a 4-hour drive from my office. > > During winter snowstorms (when they need the AGS the most of course) the > generator had only about 50:50 chance of starting. So I'd travel to the > site (sometimes just the client would do it and I'd guide him by phone), > pull up the Gen menu on the Mate 3S, hit ON and it wouldn't start. No > bueno. Walk up to the generator (propane with Honda engine) and verify it's > on Auto. Start it with the main switch to ON, starts right up, so not a gen > battery problem. Run it for an hour or so, stop it with the switch on the > gen, put it back to Auto, and everything works perfectly from Mate 3S AGS > for 1-2 days, including remote start from OpticsRE. Then the problem > (sometimes) comes up again when nobody is there. > > I just happened to hit the site at exactly the right time last week right > as a big snowstorm was moving in, and was finally able to figure it out > with really good raingear and a multimeter: The Outback Flexware remote gen > start relay OBR-16-DIN was icing up internally, I had added it in the gen > compartment when we upgraded the client from an old Trace SW to an Outback > (SW had a big AGS relay, Outback sent a 12VDC signal to trigger the > external relay we added). > > DIAG - new Outback OBR-16-DIN relay would get frosty internally when high > humidity snowstorms would move in, that's why it sometimes didn't work from > the Mate 3S or OpticsRE. Run the gen for an hour, the internal gen > compartment warms up, the frost melts off of the relay, then all the AGS > from Mate 3S and OpticsRE works fine. > > Have any of all y'all run into this problem, and is there a more reliable > relay to use that won't ice up? not outside exposed to weather, but inside > the outside gen enclosure. I have zero space available in the VFX MNDC > enclosure in the house to put in the Flexware AGS relay, it would need a > separate enclosure. > > The easiest solution I can see is just find a relay to fit into the gen > compartment that does the same as the Outback version, but doesn't ice up. > > Thanks in advance for any and all suggestions. > > Dan Fink > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > NABCEP PV Associate > d anbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Feb 9 14:27:11 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2024 11:27:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: <20fa293e8ba0deb2f52ba7ab1c8630d0@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Dave: I have to disagree with you here. To my knowledge every SOC system relies on coulomb counting and applying an efficiency value. That efficiency value is dependent on changing variables such as temperature, age of the batteries, charge rate, discharge rate-- to name a few. Every SOC system I have studied requires periodic recalibration. Maybe Discover is different but here is my experience with Fortress. Below is a chart of SOC versus Battery Voltage for a 4 Sunny Island system in a closed loop installation with 5 Fortress E-vaults: Inside the ellipse note that at 6:00AM the SOC is 55% and the battery voltage is about 50.8. At 4:00PM pm the same day SOC is again at 55% but the battery voltage is about 50.0 VDC. This is a drift in calibration of 0.8 VDC in 10 hours. In the context of LiFePo4 systems 0.8 VDC is a lot. Because this is closed loop, the drift was created in the BMS units, not the Sunny Island. Drake, to your question: The consequences depend on how much the system relies on SOC for operational mode decisions. I work almost exclusively with Outback and SMA SI and primarily in the off-grid segment. Since the SI is SOC-centric, the consequences experienced during the period charted above was that the system failed to start the generator and the system shut down. I am new to the use of Lithium batteries and don’t work a lot with SI so it took me two trips to figure out what was happening. The diagnosis was complicated by a failed SD card and a catastrophic generator failure (shorted windings). It took a few days to get a replacement generator and the interim the Fortress BMSs failed to recalibrate and this caused the incorrect correlation between VDC and SOC. In conversation with Fortress tech support I was advised to make sure the battery voltage gets to 54.4 at least once per week. This is the voltage at which the E-vaults recalibrate SOC. During the winter this is sometimes difficult to do. I can’t rely on the SI generator to auto-start and achieve 54.4 because it triggers on SOC values and if those values are wrong then the generator may shutoff prematurely, failing to reach 54.4. In this case the generator failed to start at all as a direct result of inaccurate SOC and the system crashed, causing an inconvenience to the client and to me. There are some settings on the SI that may force a full charge but I haven’t drilled down yet to see if this can be configured to ensure that 54.4 once per week. If anyone has experience with this and can chime in it may save me some time. I suspect all settings rely on SOC so there will be no built in solution. If the inverter here was an Outback and I was not relying on an FNDC to control generator start (which I never do), this problem would not happen. The Outback would react to battery voltage only, as monitored over three different time periods. This is a superior method for sure. Battery inverters are very smart these days, but sometimes not quite smart enough… Drake, thanks for asking. William PS: Brainstorming a solutions here: A: I am sure I could program an Arduino or Raspberry Pi to take over generator auto-start duties. I don’t prefer homemade solutions because of the time required to develop and test and I am not good at building interfaces. B: Maybe I could install a Mate3s and one FM60 charge controller. The charge controller would not connect to PV because this is an AC coupled system, but if were connected to the batteries it could monitor battery voltage and the internal aux relay could control the generator. Ideas, anyone? WM Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Friday, February 9, 2024 9:29 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark Hi Drake, I do not think there is a lack of accuracy in a good closed loop LFP battery system. The steep curve of Lithium is just not accurate for voltage and the Soc measurement from a quality BMS is super accurate. All I use is the Discover AES and unlike others here, I do not have any issues over 4 years and 45 mostly Offgrid homes. The closed loop UL 9540 systems save alot of fuel in generator use, are simple, and have happy clients for me. *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* *"we go where powerlines don't"* * https://offgridsolar1.com/ * *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net * *text 209 813 0060* On 2024-02-09 8:05 am, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: How does the lack of accuracy in SOC detection affect the usefulness of closed loop systems? *Drake Chamberlin* *Athens Electric LLC* *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810* *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* On 2024-02-05 11:36, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: Jason: I am careful about getting my clients too dependent on SOC readings. SOC is a calculated value based on changing variables and is notoriously inaccurate. Below is a screenshot of the Optics reporting for a client. The graph line that begins as the lower of the two is the SOC, the other is voltage. The SOC is out of calibration until about noon when it jumps from about 20% to about 80%. This does not mean the SOC changed by that amount, it means that it was just very wrong. Who knows when it is correct? In spite of repeated entreaties this client still reads the SOC and becomes concerned when it gets low-- even if the voltage level indicates the batteries are well charged. I have to deal with his misplaced anxiety. *Error! Filename not specified.**Error! Filename not specified.**Error! Filename not specified.* This problem appears to occur across all battery/inverter technology. For example, SMA touts their "coulomb counting" as more accurate than others but I have witnessed otherwise. You'd think that BMS units built by lithium manufacturers for their own products would be consistently accurate but even those BMS units need to recalibrate frequently, this according to the battery manufacturer's engineers. It would be nice to offer clients a simple, accurate method of ascertaining battery charge levels. SOC is not that method. I train my clients to watch voltage levels and to understand these values are elastic. If you can see trends in the battery voltage, so much the better. This is why I like the Outback Optics interface. This is also why a good AGS system examines battery voltage over time. I no longer install Outback FNDC units. Without them there is no SOC reading. I don't install Sunny Island systems—they are SOC centered and suffer for it. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Sunday, February 4, 2024 7:30 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark Are there any off the shelf solutions to view battery SOC via a wired meter mounted remotely on a property? I have a client with a simple voltage based meter for lead acid batteries that they are accustomed to using as a quick and approximate gauge of SOC. They want something similar for their new Sol-Ark with EG4 LL batteries. They will have smartphone app visibility, but they want something they can see inside the house without picking up a phone or going out to the inverter. Ideally the SOC will come from the inverter or the battery itself, not an external source (to avoid discrepancies). Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 153836 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Feb 9 14:38:08 2024 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2024 14:38:08 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark Message-ID: <9h0r0keflhiv8i4ffj2r2614.1707507360906@email.lge.com> William,You are aware that SMA does not support closed loop battery connections with any manufacturer? I have had many conversations with trailers and engineers there and have chisen not to support switching to lithium with SI for tbis reason.I think this taints your position in this matter.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: William Miller via RE-wrenchesDate: Fri, Feb 9, 2024 2:33 PMTo: offgridsolar at sti.net;RE-wrenches;Cc: William Miller;Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-ArkDave: I have to disagree with you here.  To my knowledge every SOC system relies on coulomb counting and applying an efficiency value.  That efficiency value is dependent on changing variables such as temperature, age of the batteries, charge rate, discharge rate-- to name a few.  Every SOC system I have studied requires periodic recalibration.  Maybe Discover is different but here is my experience with Fortress.   Below is a chart of SOC versus Battery Voltage for a 4 Sunny Island system in a closed loop installation with 5 Fortress E-vaults:  Inside the ellipse note that at 6:00AM the SOC is 55% and the battery voltage is about 50.8.  At 4:00PM pm the same day SOC is again at 55% but the battery voltage is about 50.0 VDC.  This is a drift in calibration of 0.8 VDC in 10 hours.  In the context of LiFePo4 systems 0.8 VDC is a lot.  Because this is closed loop, the drift was created in the BMS units, not the Sunny Island. Drake, to your question:  The consequences depend on how much the system relies on SOC for operational mode decisions.  I work almost exclusively with Outback and SMA SI and primarily in the off-grid segment.  Since the SI is SOC-centric, the consequences experienced during the period charted above was that the system failed to start the generator and the system shut down. I am new to the use of Lithium batteries and don’t work a lot with SI so it took me two trips to figure out what was happening.  The diagnosis was complicated by a failed SD card and a catastrophic generator failure (shorted windings).  It took a few days to get a replacement generator and the interim the Fortress BMSs failed to recalibrate and this caused the incorrect correlation between VDC and SOC. In conversation with Fortress tech support I was advised to make sure the battery voltage gets to 54.4 at least once per week.  This is the voltage at which the E-vaults recalibrate SOC.  During the winter this is sometimes difficult to do.  I can’t rely on the SI generator to auto-start and achieve 54.4 because it triggers on SOC values and if those values are wrong then the generator may shutoff prematurely, failing to reach 54.4.  In this case the generator failed to start at all as a direct result of inaccurate SOC and the system crashed, causing an inconvenience to the client and to me.   There are some settings on the SI that may force a full charge but I haven’t drilled down yet to see if this can be configured to ensure that 54.4 once per week.  If anyone has experience with this and can chime in it may save me some time.  I suspect all settings rely on SOC so there will be no built in solution. If the inverter here was an Outback and I was not relying on an FNDC to control generator start (which I never do), this problem would not happen.  The Outback would react to battery voltage only, as monitored over three different time periods.  This is a superior method for sure. Battery inverters are very smart these days, but sometimes not quite smart enough… Drake, thanks for asking. William PS:  Brainstorming a solutions here:   A:  I am sure I could program an Arduino or Raspberry Pi to take over generator auto-start duties.  I don’t prefer homemade solutions because of the time required to develop and test and I am not good at building interfaces. B:  Maybe I could install a Mate3s and one FM60 charge controller.  The charge controller would not connect to PV because this is an AC coupled system, but if were connected to the batteries it could monitor battery voltage and the internal aux relay could control the generator. Ideas, anyone? WM Miller Solar17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422805-438-5600www.millersolar.comCA Lic. 773985  From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenchesSent: Friday, February 9, 2024 9:29 AMTo: RE-wrenchesCc: Dave Angelini Offgrid SolarSubject: Re: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark Hi Drake, I do not think there is a lack of accuracy in a good closed loop LFP battery system. The steep curve of Lithium is just not accurate for voltage and the Soc measurement from a quality BMS is super accurate. All I use is the Discover AES and unlike others here, I do not have any issues over 4 years and 45 mostly Offgrid homes.The closed loop UL 9540 systems save alot of fuel in generator use, are simple, and have happy clients for me.Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar"we go where powerlines don't"  https://offgridsolar1.com/ e-mail  offgridsolar at sti.nettext 209 813 0060 On 2024-02-09 8:05 am, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote:How does the lack of accuracy in SOC detection affect the usefulness of closed loop systems?Drake ChamberlinAthens Electric LLCOhio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional On 2024-02-05 11:36, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote:Jason: I am careful about getting my clients too dependent on SOC readings.  SOC is a calculated value based on changing variables and is notoriously inaccurate. Below is a screenshot of the Optics reporting for a client.  The graph line that begins as the lower of the two is the SOC, the other is voltage.  The SOC is out of calibration until about noon when it jumps from about 20% to about 80%.  This does not mean the SOC changed by that amount, it means that it was just very wrong.  Who knows when it is correct? In spite of repeated entreaties this client still reads the SOC and becomes concerned when it gets low-- even if the voltage level indicates the batteries are well charged.  I have to deal with his misplaced anxiety.  Error! Filename not specified.Error! Filename not specified.Error! Filename not specified. This problem appears to occur across all battery/inverter technology.  For example, SMA touts their "coulomb counting" as more accurate than others but I have witnessed otherwise.  You'd think that BMS units built by lithium manufacturers for their own products would be consistently accurate but even those BMS units need to recalibrate frequently, this according to the battery manufacturer's engineers. It would be nice to offer clients a simple, accurate method of ascertaining battery charge levels.  SOC is not that method.  I train my clients to watch voltage levels and to understand these values are elastic.  If you can see trends in the battery voltage, so much the better. This is why I like the Outback Optics interface.  This is also why a good AGS system examines battery voltage over time. I no longer install Outback FNDC units.  Without them there is no SOC reading.  I don't install Sunny Island systems—they are SOC centered and suffer for it. William Miller Solar17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422805-438-5600www.millersolar.comCA Lic. 773985  From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenchesSent: Sunday, February 4, 2024 7:30 AMTo: RE-wrenchesCc: Jason SzumlanskiSubject: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark Are there any off the shelf solutions to view battery SOC via a wired meter mounted remotely on a property? I have a client with a simple voltage based meter for lead acid batteries that they are accustomed to using as a quick and approximate gauge of SOC. They want something similar for their new Sol-Ark with EG4 LL batteries.  They will have smartphone app visibility, but they want something they can see inside the house without picking up a phone or going out to the inverter. Ideally the SOC will come from the inverter or the battery itself, not an external source (to avoid discrepancies). Jason SzumlanskiFlorida Solar Design Group  _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood AlliancePay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.orgList Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgThere are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood AlliancePay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.orgList Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgThere are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 153836 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Feb 9 14:38:45 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2024 11:38:45 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] In search of better generator start relay for Outback system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5a62e8a7333f21cf7788144a8fb0485f@mail.gmail.com> Dan: I think a solid state relay is indicated here. There are many out there. Here is a link to one at Digikey: https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/wago-corporation/859-739/15520805 The datasheet (attached) shows operating limits of -25 to 70 degree C. There are other options at Digikey that work down to -40 degrees C. Good luck, William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Dan Fink via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Friday, February 9, 2024 9:28 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Dan Fink *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] In search of better generator start relay for Outback system Esteemed Wrenches - Finally successfully troubleshot an intermittent AGS problem that has been nagging one of my remote-grid clients for 1.5 winters now. Of course it's a 4-hour drive from my office. During winter snowstorms (when they need the AGS the most of course) the generator had only about 50:50 chance of starting. So I'd travel to the site (sometimes just the client would do it and I'd guide him by phone), pull up the Gen menu on the Mate 3S, hit ON and it wouldn't start. No bueno. Walk up to the generator (propane with Honda engine) and verify it's on Auto. Start it with the main switch to ON, starts right up, so not a gen battery problem. Run it for an hour or so, stop it with the switch on the gen, put it back to Auto, and everything works perfectly from Mate 3S AGS for 1-2 days, including remote start from OpticsRE. Then the problem (sometimes) comes up again when nobody is there. I just happened to hit the site at exactly the right time last week right as a big snowstorm was moving in, and was finally able to figure it out with really good raingear and a multimeter: The Outback Flexware remote gen start relay OBR-16-DIN was icing up internally, I had added it in the gen compartment when we upgraded the client from an old Trace SW to an Outback (SW had a big AGS relay, Outback sent a 12VDC signal to trigger the external relay we added). DIAG - new Outback OBR-16-DIN relay would get frosty internally when high humidity snowstorms would move in, that's why it sometimes didn't work from the Mate 3S or OpticsRE. Run the gen for an hour, the internal gen compartment warms up, the frost melts off of the relay, then all the AGS from Mate 3S and OpticsRE works fine. Have any of all y'all run into this problem, and is there a more reliable relay to use that won't ice up? not outside exposed to weather, but inside the outside gen enclosure. I have zero space available in the VFX MNDC enclosure in the house to put in the Flexware AGS relay, it would need a separate enclosure. The easiest solution I can see is just find a relay to fit into the gen compartment that does the same as the Outback version, but doesn't ice up. Thanks in advance for any and all suggestions. Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Wago SS Relay.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 318894 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Feb 9 15:07:37 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2024 12:07:37 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark Message-ID: Glenn: I am aware that SMA does not support closed loop. This is does not negate the point I am making. There is a problem in that Fortress claims the E-vault is compatible with Sunny Island. We should not have relied on Fortress for compatibility claims. The client really wanted lithium and already had a big SI system. I want to find alternatives to lead-acid with its very limited lifespan. A lot of resources are wasted replacing and processing sulfated lead acid batteries. We reviewed the Fortress compatibility documents and made a decision based on incomplete information. This is my fault for not researching further. However we find ourselves with SI and E-vaults. I am trying to make the system work and share what I am learning because I think there are valuable lessons here. I started with open loop and I had greater problems with SOC inaccuracy so I chose closed loop as an attempted work-around to the problem. The system performs generally more accurately with closed loop but does have the problems I described. I am still learning and trying to get this system to behave. I am not sure how that “taints” my position. If my findings are inaccurate I’d love to have you or anyone point out the errors so my understanding improves and I can better serve my clients. I do believe it is valid to assume any system that offers SOC can become out of calibration. I strive to give back to the industry by sharing fully what I have learned. I don’t claim to be right all the time and I am certainly open to other conclusions. Am I incorrect with the information I presented or the conclusions I have drawn? William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* Glenn Burt [mailto:Glenn.burt at glbcc.com] *Sent:* Friday, February 9, 2024 11:38 AM *To:* William Miller via RE-wrenches; offgridsolar at sti.net *Cc:* William Miller *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark William, You are aware that SMA does not support closed loop battery connections with any manufacturer? I have had many conversations with trailers and engineers there and have chisen not to support switching to lithium with SI for tbis reason. I think this taints your position in this matter. -Glenn Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. ------ Original message------ *From: *William Miller via RE-wrenches *Date: *Fri, Feb 9, 2024 2:33 PM *To: *offgridsolar at sti.net;RE-wrenches; *Cc: *William Miller; *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark Dave: I have to disagree with you here. To my knowledge every SOC system relies on coulomb counting and applying an efficiency value. That efficiency value is dependent on changing variables such as temperature, age of the batteries, charge rate, discharge rate-- to name a few. Every SOC system I have studied requires periodic recalibration. Maybe Discover is different but here is my experience with Fortress. Below is a chart of SOC versus Battery Voltage for a 4 Sunny Island system in a closed loop installation with 5 Fortress E-vaults: [image: cid:image001.jpg at 01DA5B4F.8346CC10] Inside the ellipse note that at 6:00AM the SOC is 55% and the battery voltage is about 50.8. At 4:00PM pm the same day SOC is again at 55% but the battery voltage is about 50.0 VDC. This is a drift in calibration of 0.8 VDC in 10 hours. In the context of LiFePo4 systems 0.8 VDC is a lot. Because this is closed loop, the drift was created in the BMS units, not the Sunny Island. Drake, to your question: The consequences depend on how much the system relies on SOC for operational mode decisions. I work almost exclusively with Outback and SMA SI and primarily in the off-grid segment. Since the SI is SOC-centric, the consequences experienced during the period charted above was that the system failed to start the generator and the system shut down. I am new to the use of Lithium batteries and don’t work a lot with SI so it took me two trips to figure out what was happening. The diagnosis was complicated by a failed SD card and a catastrophic generator failure (shorted windings). It took a few days to get a replacement generator and the interim the Fortress BMSs failed to recalibrate and this caused the incorrect correlation between VDC and SOC. In conversation with Fortress tech support I was advised to make sure the battery voltage gets to 54.4 at least once per week. This is the voltage at which the E-vaults recalibrate SOC. During the winter this is sometimes difficult to do. I can’t rely on the SI generator to auto-start and achieve 54.4 because it triggers on SOC values and if those values are wrong then the generator may shutoff prematurely, failing to reach 54.4. In this case the generator failed to start at all as a direct result of inaccurate SOC and the system crashed, causing an inconvenience to the client and to me. There are some settings on the SI that may force a full charge but I haven’t drilled down yet to see if this can be configured to ensure that 54.4 once per week. If anyone has experience with this and can chime in it may save me some time. I suspect all settings rely on SOC so there will be no built in solution. If the inverter here was an Outback and I was not relying on an FNDC to control generator start (which I never do), this problem would not happen. The Outback would react to battery voltage only, as monitored over three different time periods. This is a superior method for sure. Battery inverters are very smart these days, but sometimes not quite smart enough… Drake, thanks for asking. William PS: Brainstorming a solutions here: A: I am sure I could program an Arduino or Raspberry Pi to take over generator auto-start duties. I don’t prefer homemade solutions because of the time required to develop and test and I am not good at building interfaces. B: Maybe I could install a Mate3s and one FM60 charge controller. The charge controller would not connect to PV because this is an AC coupled system, but if were connected to the batteries it could monitor battery voltage and the internal aux relay could control the generator. Ideas, anyone? WM Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Friday, February 9, 2024 9:29 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark Hi Drake, I do not think there is a lack of accuracy in a good closed loop LFP battery system. The steep curve of Lithium is just not accurate for voltage and the Soc measurement from a quality BMS is super accurate. All I use is the Discover AES and unlike others here, I do not have any issues over 4 years and 45 mostly Offgrid homes. The closed loop UL 9540 systems save alot of fuel in generator use, are simple, and have happy clients for me. *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* *"we go where powerlines don't"* * **https://offgridsolar1.com/ ** * *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net * *text 209 813 0060 <209%20813%200060>* On 2024-02-09 8:05 am, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: How does the lack of accuracy in SOC detection affect the usefulness of closed loop systems? *Drake Chamberlin* *Athens Electric LLC* *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810* *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* On 2024-02-05 11:36, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: Jason: I am careful about getting my clients too dependent on SOC readings. SOC is a calculated value based on changing variables and is notoriously inaccurate. Below is a screenshot of the Optics reporting for a client. The graph line that begins as the lower of the two is the SOC, the other is voltage. The SOC is out of calibration until about noon when it jumps from about 20% to about 80%. This does not mean the SOC changed by that amount, it means that it was just very wrong. Who knows when it is correct? In spite of repeated entreaties this client still reads the SOC and becomes concerned when it gets low-- even if the voltage level indicates the batteries are well charged. I have to deal with his misplaced anxiety. *Error! Filename not specified.Error! Filename not specified.Error! Filename not specified.* This problem appears to occur across all battery/inverter technology. For example, SMA touts their "coulomb counting" as more accurate than others but I have witnessed otherwise. You'd think that BMS units built by lithium manufacturers for their own products would be consistently accurate but even those BMS units need to recalibrate frequently, this according to the battery manufacturer's engineers. It would be nice to offer clients a simple, accurate method of ascertaining battery charge levels. SOC is not that method. I train my clients to watch voltage levels and to understand these values are elastic. If you can see trends in the battery voltage, so much the better. This is why I like the Outback Optics interface. This is also why a good AGS system examines battery voltage over time. I no longer install Outback FNDC units. Without them there is no SOC reading. I don't install Sunny Island systems—they are SOC centered and suffer for it. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Sunday, February 4, 2024 7:30 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark Are there any off the shelf solutions to view battery SOC via a wired meter mounted remotely on a property? I have a client with a simple voltage based meter for lead acid batteries that they are accustomed to using as a quick and approximate gauge of SOC. They want something similar for their new Sol-Ark with EG4 LL batteries. They will have smartphone app visibility, but they want something they can see inside the house without picking up a phone or going out to the inverter. Ideally the SOC will come from the inverter or the battery itself, not an external source (to avoid discrepancies). Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 153836 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Fri Feb 9 18:18:40 2024 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2024 15:18:40 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: <20fa293e8ba0deb2f52ba7ab1c8630d0@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <92d29e2a-6619-4c61-8b62-2e39f9576ada@coveoregon.com> William, I think that the SOC determined by lithium BMSs come with similar accuracy issues that occur with the Trimetric, FNDC, Magnum BMK,... - small measurement errors integrated over a long time become big errors. That's why Fortress (and every SOC meter) is saying that the battery needs to reach 54.4 volts once a week for recalibration. At least with lithium batteries the SOC meter doesn't need to account for the return current dropping down as is required with lead-acid batteries. The internal BMSs probably do a better job of estimating the SOC than these external devices, but I do not expect them to be perfect. Same goes with everyone's electric car, while we put a lot of faith in the displayed SOC it probably isn't much better than ±5% and if it were off by 10% you probably wouldn't know. In regards to your graph showing a big voltage difference between two 55% SOC occurrences over a 12 hour time frame. I question your assumption that the voltage  should be the same. The data show different voltages for the same SOC, it seems unlikely that the BMS measurement drifted by enough to make that happen, so I think the data shown may both be correct within reason. The voltage of lithium cells is highly load dependent (probably somewhat temperature dependent too) so perhaps the Fortress battery is actually close to right at both times. Since using the SI SOC meter for starting the generator is problematic, an external device for starting based on voltage is a good idea.  If you want a ready to go product to do that, I think the Morningstar relay driver will work well. A little difficult to program or reprogram but very reliable. One issue you will observe is that the generator won't start at a consistent SOC as indicated by the battery or the SI. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 2/9/2024 11:27 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Dave: > > I have to disagree with you here.  To my knowledge every SOC system > relies on coulomb counting and applying an efficiency value.  That > efficiency value is dependent on changing variables such as > temperature, age of the batteries, charge rate, discharge rate-- to > name a few.  Every SOC system I have studied requires periodic > recalibration.  Maybe Discover is different but here is my experience > with Fortress. > > Below is a chart of SOC versus Battery Voltage for a 4 Sunny Island > system in a closed loop installation with 5 Fortress E-vaults: > > Inside the ellipse note that at 6:00AM the SOC is 55% and the battery > voltage is about 50.8.  At 4:00PM pm the same day SOC is again at 55% > but the battery voltage is about 50.0 VDC.  This is a drift in > calibration of 0.8 VDC in 10 hours.  In the context of LiFePo4 systems > 0.8 VDC is a lot. Because this is closed loop, the drift was created > in the BMS units, not the Sunny Island. > > Drake, to your question:  The consequences depend on how much the > system relies on SOC for operational mode decisions.  I work almost > exclusively with Outback and SMA SI and primarily in the off-grid > segment.  Since the SI is SOC-centric, the consequences experienced > during the period charted above was that the system failed to start > the generator and the system shut down. > > I am new to the use of Lithium batteries and don’t work a lot with SI > so it took me two trips to figure out what was happening.  The > diagnosis was complicated by a failed SD card and a catastrophic > generator failure (shorted windings).  It took a few days to get a > replacement generator and the interim the Fortress BMSs failed to > recalibrate and this caused the incorrect correlation between VDC and SOC. > > In conversation with Fortress tech support I was advised to make sure > the battery voltage gets to 54.4 at least once per week.  This is the > voltage at which the E-vaults recalibrate SOC.  During the winter this > is sometimes difficult to do. I can’t rely on the SI generator to > auto-start and achieve 54.4 because it triggers on SOC values and if > those values are wrong then the generator may shutoff prematurely, > failing to reach 54.4.  In this case the generator failed to start at > all as a direct result of inaccurate SOC and the system crashed, > causing an inconvenience to the client and to me. > > There are some settings on the SI that may force a full charge but I > haven’t drilled down yet to see if this can be configured to ensure > that 54.4 once per week.  If anyone has experience with this and can > chime in it may save me some time.  I suspect all settings rely on SOC > so there will be no built in solution. > > If the inverter here was an Outback and I was not relying on an FNDC > to control generator start (which I never do), this problem would not > happen.  The Outback would react to battery voltage only, as monitored > over three different time periods.  This is a superior method for sure. > > Battery inverters are very smart these days, but sometimes not quite > smart enough… > > Drake, thanks for asking. > > William > > PS: Brainstorming a solutions here: > > A: I am sure I could program an Arduino or Raspberry Pi to take over > generator auto-start duties.  I don’t prefer homemade solutions > because of the time required to develop and test and I am not good at > building interfaces. > > B: Maybe I could install a Mate3s and one FM60 charge controller.  The > charge controller would not connect to PV because this is an AC > coupled system, but if were connected to the batteries it could > monitor battery voltage and the internal aux relay could control the > generator. > > Ideas, anyone? > > WM > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Friday, February 9, 2024 9:29 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark > > Hi Drake, > > I do not think there is a lack of accuracy in a good closed loop LFP > battery system. The steep curve of Lithium is just not accurate for > voltage and the Soc measurement from a quality BMS is super accurate. > > All I use is the Discover AES and unlike others here, I do not have > any issues over 4 years and 45 mostly Offgrid homes. > > The closed loop UL 9540 systems save alot of fuel in generator use, > are simple, and have happy clients for me. > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* > *"we go where powerlines don't"* > *https://offgridsolar1.com/ > * > *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net* > *text 209 813 0060* > > On 2024-02-09 8:05 am, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > > How does the lack of accuracy in SOC detection affect the > usefulness of closed loop systems? > > /Drake Chamberlin/ > > /Athens Electric LLC/ > > /Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810/ > > /NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional/ > > On 2024-02-05 11:36, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Jason: > > I am careful about getting my clients too dependent on SOC > readings.  SOC is a calculated value based on changing > variables and is notoriously inaccurate. > > Below is a screenshot of the Optics reporting for a client.  > The graph line that begins as the lower of the two is the SOC, > the other is voltage.  The SOC is out of calibration until > about noon when it jumps from about 20% to about 80%.  This > does not mean the SOC changed by that amount, it means that it > was just very wrong.  Who knows when it is correct? > > In spite of repeated entreaties this client still reads the > SOC and becomes concerned when it gets low-- even if the > voltage level indicates the batteries are well charged.  I > have to deal with his misplaced anxiety. > > *Error! Filename not specified.**Error! Filename not > specified.**Error! Filename not specified.* > > This problem appears to occur across all battery/inverter > technology.  For example, SMA touts their "coulomb counting" > as more accurate than others but I have witnessed otherwise.  > You'd think that BMS units built by lithium manufacturers for > their own products would be consistently accurate but even > those BMS units need to recalibrate frequently, this according > to the battery manufacturer's engineers. > > It would be nice to offer clients a simple, accurate method of > ascertaining battery charge levels.  SOC is not that method.  > I train my clients to watch voltage levels and to understand > these values are elastic.  If you can see trends in the > battery voltage, so much the better. This is why I like the > Outback Optics interface.  This is also why a good AGS system > examines battery voltage over time. > > I no longer install Outback FNDC units.  Without them there is > no SOC reading.  I don't install Sunny Island systems—they are > SOC centered and suffer for it. > > William > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf > Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Sunday, February 4, 2024 7:30 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark > > Are there any off the shelf solutions to view battery SOC via > a wired meter mounted remotely on a property? I have a client > with a simple voltage based meter for lead acid batteries that > they are accustomed to using as a quick and approximate gauge > of SOC. They want something similar for their new Sol-Ark with > EG4 LL batteries. > > They will have smartphone app visibility, but they want > something they can see inside the house without picking up a > phone or going out to the inverter. Ideally the SOC will come > from the inverter or the battery itself, not an external > source (to avoid discrepancies). > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 153836 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Feb 9 19:00:09 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2024 17:00:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] In search of better generator start relay for Outback system In-Reply-To: <5a62e8a7333f21cf7788144a8fb0485f@mail.gmail.com> References: <5a62e8a7333f21cf7788144a8fb0485f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <65478A5D-2162-4B4F-BDAB-D1ED94ADE967@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 31CBOICBnYL._SR600,315_PIWhiteStrip,BottomLeft,0,35_PIStarRatingFOURANDHALF,BottomLeft,360,-6_SR600,315_ZA892,445,290,400,400,AmazonEmberBold,12,4,0,0,5_SCLZZZZZZZ_FMpng_BG255,255,255.jpg Type: image/png Size: 45670 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Feb 9 19:08:36 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2024 16:08:36 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: <92d29e2a-6619-4c61-8b62-2e39f9576ada@coveoregon.com> References: <20fa293e8ba0deb2f52ba7ab1c8630d0@redwoodalliance.org> <92d29e2a-6619-4c61-8b62-2e39f9576ada@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: I like Kent's answer ! Adding on I am not sure about this combo (not the Solark) as I do not use it. Still not sure if it is closed loop? I know when Schneider adds another closed loop LFP battery to it's supported list, it really is the battery manufacturers responsibility to make sure the RS485 canbus/modbus network is accurate or using the right data. You can load test also to see where the bottom is and if it is accurate? Use an external Bat mon and shunt. Usually these quality batteries have a 10 year warranty, user replaceable BMS and Cal/test procedure for replacement of the BMS. There is also a State of Life % as well as a USB output of battery internal cells program. At least Discover does this. Nice 75 year old company that makes Locomotive batteries ! Cheers time! Friday! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-02-09 3:18 pm, Kent via RE-wrenches wrote: > William, > > I think that the SOC determined by lithium BMSs come with similar > accuracy issues that occur with the Trimetric, FNDC, Magnum BMK,... - > small measurement errors integrated over a long time become big errors. > That's why Fortress (and every SOC meter) is saying that the battery > needs to reach 54.4 volts once a week for recalibration. At least with > lithium batteries the SOC meter doesn't need to account for the return > current dropping down as is required with lead-acid batteries. The > internal BMSs probably do a better job of estimating the SOC than these > external devices, but I do not expect them to be perfect. Same goes > with everyone's electric car, while we put a lot of faith in the > displayed SOC it probably isn't much better than ±5% and if it were off > by 10% you probably wouldn't know. > > In regards to your graph showing a big voltage difference between two > 55% SOC occurrences over a 12 hour time frame. I question your > assumption that the voltage should be the same. The data show > different voltages for the same SOC, it seems unlikely that the BMS > measurement drifted by enough to make that happen, so I think the data > shown may both be correct within reason. The voltage of lithium cells > is highly load dependent (probably somewhat temperature dependent too) > so perhaps the Fortress battery is actually close to right at both > times. > > Since using the SI SOC meter for starting the generator is problematic, > an external device for starting based on voltage is a good idea. If > you want a ready to go product to do that, I think the Morningstar > relay driver will work well. A little difficult to program or reprogram > but very reliable. One issue you will observe is that the generator > won't start at a consistent SOC as indicated by the battery or the SI. > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > On 2/9/2024 11:27 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Dave: > > I have to disagree with you here. To my knowledge every SOC system > relies on coulomb counting and applying an efficiency value. That > efficiency value is dependent on changing variables such as > temperature, age of the batteries, charge rate, discharge rate-- to > name a few. Every SOC system I have studied requires periodic > recalibration. Maybe Discover is different but here is my experience > with Fortress. > > Below is a chart of SOC versus Battery Voltage for a 4 Sunny Island > system in a closed loop installation with 5 Fortress E-vaults: > > Inside the ellipse note that at 6:00AM the SOC is 55% and the battery > voltage is about 50.8. At 4:00PM pm the same day SOC is again at 55% > but the battery voltage is about 50.0 VDC. This is a drift in > calibration of 0.8 VDC in 10 hours. In the context of LiFePo4 systems > 0.8 VDC is a lot. Because this is closed loop, the drift was created > in the BMS units, not the Sunny Island. > > Drake, to your question: The consequences depend on how much the > system relies on SOC for operational mode decisions. I work almost > exclusively with Outback and SMA SI and primarily in the off-grid > segment. Since the SI is SOC-centric, the consequences experienced > during the period charted above was that the system failed to start the > generator and the system shut down. > > I am new to the use of Lithium batteries and don't work a lot with SI > so it took me two trips to figure out what was happening. The > diagnosis was complicated by a failed SD card and a catastrophic > generator failure (shorted windings). It took a few days to get a > replacement generator and the interim the Fortress BMSs failed to > recalibrate and this caused the incorrect correlation between VDC and > SOC. > > In conversation with Fortress tech support I was advised to make sure > the battery voltage gets to 54.4 at least once per week. This is the > voltage at which the E-vaults recalibrate SOC. During the winter this > is sometimes difficult to do. I can't rely on the SI generator to > auto-start and achieve 54.4 because it triggers on SOC values and if > those values are wrong then the generator may shutoff prematurely, > failing to reach 54.4. In this case the generator failed to start at > all as a direct result of inaccurate SOC and the system crashed, > causing an inconvenience to the client and to me. > > There are some settings on the SI that may force a full charge but I > haven't drilled down yet to see if this can be configured to ensure > that 54.4 once per week. If anyone has experience with this and can > chime in it may save me some time. I suspect all settings rely on SOC > so there will be no built in solution. > > If the inverter here was an Outback and I was not relying on an FNDC to > control generator start (which I never do), this problem would not > happen. The Outback would react to battery voltage only, as monitored > over three different time periods. This is a superior method for sure. > > Battery inverters are very smart these days, but sometimes not quite > smart enough... > > Drake, thanks for asking. > > William > > PS: Brainstorming a solutions here: > > A: I am sure I could program an Arduino or Raspberry Pi to take over > generator auto-start duties. I don't prefer homemade solutions because > of the time required to develop and test and I am not good at building > interfaces. > > B: Maybe I could install a Mate3s and one FM60 charge controller. The > charge controller would not connect to PV because this is an AC coupled > system, but if were connected to the batteries it could monitor battery > voltage and the internal aux relay could control the generator. > > Ideas, anyone? > > WM > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com [3] > > CA Lic. 773985 > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches > Sent: Friday, February 9, 2024 9:29 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark > > Hi Drake, > > I do not think there is a lack of accuracy in a good closed loop LFP > battery system. The steep curve of Lithium is just not accurate for > voltage and the Soc measurement from a quality BMS is super accurate. > > All I use is the Discover AES and unlike others here, I do not have any > issues over 4 years and 45 mostly Offgrid homes. > > The closed loop UL 9540 systems save alot of fuel in generator use, are > simple, and have happy clients for me. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > > "we go where powerlines don't" > > [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] > > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > > text 209 813 0060 > > On 2024-02-09 8:05 am, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > > How does the lack of accuracy in SOC detection affect the usefulness of > closed loop systems? > > _Drake Chamberlin_ > > _Athens Electric LLC_ > > _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ > > _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ > > On 2024-02-05 11:36, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Jason: > > I am careful about getting my clients too dependent on SOC readings. > SOC is a calculated value based on changing variables and is > notoriously inaccurate. > > Below is a screenshot of the Optics reporting for a client. The graph > line that begins as the lower of the two is the SOC, the other is > voltage. The SOC is out of calibration until about noon when it jumps > from about 20% to about 80%. This does not mean the SOC changed by > that amount, it means that it was just very wrong. Who knows when it > is correct? > > In spite of repeated entreaties this client still reads the SOC and > becomes concerned when it gets low-- even if the voltage level > indicates the batteries are well charged. I have to deal with his > misplaced anxiety. > > Error! Filename not specified.Error! Filename not specified.Error! > Filename not specified. > > This problem appears to occur across all battery/inverter technology. > For example, SMA touts their "coulomb counting" as more accurate than > others but I have witnessed otherwise. You'd think that BMS units > built by lithium manufacturers for their own products would be > consistently accurate but even those BMS units need to recalibrate > frequently, this according to the battery manufacturer's engineers. > > It would be nice to offer clients a simple, accurate method of > ascertaining battery charge levels. SOC is not that method. I train > my clients to watch voltage levels and to understand these values are > elastic. If you can see trends in the battery voltage, so much the > better. This is why I like the Outback Optics interface. This is also > why a good AGS system examines battery voltage over time. > > I no longer install Outback FNDC units. Without them there is no SOC > reading. I don't install Sunny Island systems--they are SOC centered > and suffer for it. > > William > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com [3] > > CA Lic. 773985 > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > Sent: Sunday, February 4, 2024 7:30 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Jason Szumlanski > Subject: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark > > Are there any off the shelf solutions to view battery SOC via a wired > meter mounted remotely on a property? I have a client with a simple > voltage based meter for lead acid batteries that they are accustomed to > using as a quick and approximate gauge of SOC. They want something > similar for their new Sol-Ark with EG4 LL batteries. > > They will have smartphone app visibility, but they want something they > can see inside the house without picking up a phone or going out to the > inverter. Ideally the SOC will come from the inverter or the battery > itself, not an external source (to avoid discrepancies). > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ [3] http://www.millersolar.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 153836 bytes Desc: not available URL: From roy at four-winds-energy.com Fri Feb 9 19:12:25 2024 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2024 19:12:25 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] In search of better generator start relay for Outback system In-Reply-To: <65478A5D-2162-4B4F-BDAB-D1ED94ADE967@gmail.com> References: <5a62e8a7333f21cf7788144a8fb0485f@mail.gmail.com> <65478A5D-2162-4B4F-BDAB-D1ED94ADE967@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5fe1d41f-9467-4da6-a711-2b87cfc84e2f@four-winds-energy.com> Jay, This has been my go to relay for the last 21 years, no failures. In all sorts of environmental conditions. Unlike the generators they are supposed to start...but I digress... Roy Butler Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don’t. “The less people know, the more stubbornly they know it.” Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. On 2/9/2024 7:00 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > I would use a sealed relay. > > The SS one should work. Or a 12v cube relay like in cars. > Super cheap and reliable > > Jay > > 31CBOICBnYL._SR600,315_PIWhiteStrip,BottomLeft,0,35_PIStarRatingFOURANDHALF,BottomLeft,360,-6_SR600,315_ZA892,445,290,400,400,AmazonEmberBold,12,4,0,0,5_SCLZZZZZZZ_FMpng_BG255,255,255.jpg > > BOSCH 0332209150 Changeover Mini Relay - 5 Pins, 12 V, 20/30 A - > Single > > amazon.com > > > > > >> On Feb 9, 2024, at 12:55 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >>  >> >> Dan: >> >> I think a solid state relay is indicated here.  There are many out >> there.  Here is a link to one at Digikey: >> >> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/wago-corporation/859-739/15520805 >> >> The datasheet (attached) shows operating limits of -25 to 70 degree >> C.  There are other options at Digikey that work down to -40 degrees C. >> >> Good luck, >> >> William >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] >> *On Behalf Of *Dan Fink via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Friday, February 9, 2024 9:28 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* Dan Fink >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] In search of better generator start relay >> for Outback system >> >> Esteemed Wrenches - Finally successfully troubleshot an intermittent >> AGS problem that has been nagging one of my remote-grid clients for >> 1.5 winters now. Of course it's a 4-hour drive from my office. >> >> During winter snowstorms (when they need the AGS the most of course) >> the generator had only about 50:50 chance of starting. So I'd travel >> to the site (sometimes just the client would do it and I'd guide him >> by phone), pull up the Gen menu on the Mate 3S, hit ON and it >> wouldn't start. No bueno. Walk up to the generator (propane with >> Honda engine) and verify it's on Auto. Start it with the main switch >> to ON, starts right up, so not a gen battery problem. Run it for an >> hour or so, stop it with the switch on the gen, put it back to Auto, >> and everything works perfectly from Mate 3S AGS for 1-2 >> days, including remote start from OpticsRE. Then the problem >> (sometimes) comes up again when nobody is there. >> >> I just happened to hit the site at exactly the right time last week >> right as a big snowstorm was moving in, and was finally able to >> figure it out with really good raingear and a multimeter: The Outback >> Flexware remote gen start relay OBR-16-DIN was icing up internally, I >> had added it in the gen compartment when we upgraded the client from >> an old Trace SW  to an Outback (SW had a big AGS relay, Outback sent >> a 12VDC signal to trigger the external relay we added). >> >> DIAG - new Outback OBR-16-DIN relay would get frosty internally when >> high humidity snowstorms would move in, that's why it sometimes >> didn't work from the Mate 3S or OpticsRE. Run the gen for an hour, >> the internal gen compartment warms up, the frost melts off of the >> relay, then all the AGS from Mate 3S and OpticsRE works fine. >> >> Have any of all y'all run into this problem, and is there a more >> reliable relay to use that won't ice up? not outside exposed to >> weather, but inside the outside gen enclosure. I have zero space >> available in the VFX  MNDC enclosure in the house to put in the >> Flexware AGS relay, it would need a separate enclosure. >> >> The easiest solution I can see is just find a relay to fit into the >> gen compartment that does the same as the Outback version, but >> doesn't ice up. >> >> Thanks in advance for any and all suggestions. >> >> Dan Fink >> >> Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC >> >> IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation >> >> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector >> >> NABCEP PV Associate >> >> d anbob88 at gmail.com >> >> 970-672-4342 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 31CBOICBnYL._SR600,315_PIWhiteStrip,BottomLeft,0,35_PIStarRatingFOURANDHALF,BottomLeft,360,-6_SR600,315_ZA892,445,290,400,400,AmazonEmberBold,12,4,0,0,5_SCLZZZZZZZ_FMpng_BG255,255,255.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 45670 bytes Desc: not available URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Fri Feb 9 21:50:29 2024 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2024 21:50:29 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] In search of better generator start relay for Outback system In-Reply-To: <5fe1d41f-9467-4da6-a711-2b87cfc84e2f@four-winds-energy.com> References: <5a62e8a7333f21cf7788144a8fb0485f@mail.gmail.com> <65478A5D-2162-4B4F-BDAB-D1ED94ADE967@gmail.com> <5fe1d41f-9467-4da6-a711-2b87cfc84e2f@four-winds-energy.com> Message-ID: I agree with Roy and Jay. No failures since exclusively using the auto cube relay triggered by any of the Outback relays in the inverter or charge controllers. I'm having good luck keeping a Magnum based system running remotely and on auto using an old MX60 I had hanging around it for its aux 12v output relay to trigger the the cube and starting a Generac EcoGen 14 k. All I can see on Optics is battery voltage and temperature at the water pipes using the battery temp sensor and generator hours from the AGS set ip as a DC Genset. All I need to know.... pipes won't freeze and the generator will start. (PS I can use the temp sensor as I am not using the Outback for battery charging as not recommended for LFP batteries. If the generator needs 3 wire start, such as the Honda 6 or 7K propane generator. I use the Atkinson Mini autostart module triggered by the cube relay. Only one failure an it was the Atkinson unit. John Blittersdorf NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ CV Wind Service (and solar) 200 West Road N Chittenden, VT 05763 802-770-8625 www.offgridvermont.com On Fri, Feb 9, 2024 at 7:13 PM Roy Butler via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jay, > > This has been my go to relay for the last 21 years, no failures. In all > sorts of environmental conditions. > Unlike the generators they are supposed to start...but I digress... > > Roy Butler > Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC > > Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don’t. > > “The less people know, the more stubbornly they know it.” > > Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, > a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. > > > > On 2/9/2024 7:00 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I would use a sealed relay. > > The SS one should work. Or a 12v cube relay like in cars. > Super cheap and reliable > > Jay > > [image: > 31CBOICBnYL._SR600,315_PIWhiteStrip,BottomLeft,0,35_PIStarRatingFOURANDHALF,BottomLeft,360,-6_SR600,315_ZA892,445,290,400,400,AmazonEmberBold,12,4,0,0,5_SCLZZZZZZZ_FMpng_BG255,255,255.jpg] > > BOSCH 0332209150 Changeover Mini Relay - 5 Pins, 12 V, 20/30 A - Single > > amazon.com > > > > > > On Feb 9, 2024, at 12:55 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches > > wrote: > >  > > Dan: > > > > I think a solid state relay is indicated here. There are many out there. > Here is a link to one at Digikey: > > > > > https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/wago-corporation/859-739/15520805 > > > > The datasheet (attached) shows operating limits of -25 to 70 degree C. > There are other options at Digikey that work down to -40 degrees C. > > > > Good luck, > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Dan Fink via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Friday, February 9, 2024 9:28 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Dan Fink > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] In search of better generator start relay for > Outback system > > > > Esteemed Wrenches - Finally successfully troubleshot an intermittent AGS > problem that has been nagging one of my remote-grid clients for 1.5 winters > now. Of course it's a 4-hour drive from my office. > > > > During winter snowstorms (when they need the AGS the most of course) the > generator had only about 50:50 chance of starting. So I'd travel to the > site (sometimes just the client would do it and I'd guide him by phone), > pull up the Gen menu on the Mate 3S, hit ON and it wouldn't start. No > bueno. Walk up to the generator (propane with Honda engine) and verify it's > on Auto. Start it with the main switch to ON, starts right up, so not a gen > battery problem. Run it for an hour or so, stop it with the switch on the > gen, put it back to Auto, and everything works perfectly from Mate 3S AGS > for 1-2 days, including remote start from OpticsRE. Then the problem > (sometimes) comes up again when nobody is there. > > > > I just happened to hit the site at exactly the right time last week right > as a big snowstorm was moving in, and was finally able to figure it out > with really good raingear and a multimeter: The Outback Flexware remote gen > start relay OBR-16-DIN was icing up internally, I had added it in the gen > compartment when we upgraded the client from an old Trace SW to an Outback > (SW had a big AGS relay, Outback sent a 12VDC signal to trigger the > external relay we added). > > > > DIAG - new Outback OBR-16-DIN relay would get frosty internally when high > humidity snowstorms would move in, that's why it sometimes didn't work from > the Mate 3S or OpticsRE. Run the gen for an hour, the internal gen > compartment warms up, the frost melts off of the relay, then all the AGS > from Mate 3S and OpticsRE works fine. > > > > Have any of all y'all run into this problem, and is there a more reliable > relay to use that won't ice up? not outside exposed to weather, but inside > the outside gen enclosure. I have zero space available in the VFX MNDC > enclosure in the house to put in the Flexware AGS relay, it would need a > separate enclosure. > > > > The easiest solution I can see is just find a relay to fit into the gen > compartment that does the same as the Outback version, but doesn't ice up. > > > > Thanks in advance for any and all suggestions. > > > > Dan Fink > > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > > NABCEP PV Associate > > d anbob88 at gmail.com > > 970-672-4342 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 31CBOICBnYL._SR600,315_PIWhiteStrip,BottomLeft,0,35_PIStarRatingFOURANDHALF,BottomLeft,360,-6_SR600,315_ZA892,445,290,400,400,AmazonEmberBold,12,4,0,0,5_SCLZZZZZZZ_FMpng_BG255,255,255.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 45670 bytes Desc: not available URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Fri Feb 9 23:09:23 2024 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2024 23:09:23 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries In-Reply-To: <40059d54-7f28-4e8b-98d3-f5b04517e6a8@solarray.com> References: <8abd261fbbef5da192be5e2f05002f0d@mail.gmail.com> <5659EF89-83B6-407B-AFAD-08271727FD03@gmail.com> <40059d54-7f28-4e8b-98d3-f5b04517e6a8@solarray.com> Message-ID: Ray, With this batch of posts about lithium batteriem and several mentions of XW inverters and overcharging, I just have to chime in with my experience with one I installed and one installed by someone else. Both were charging 48V L16 wet cell batteries. In both cases with charge settings double checked and triple checked, I had both shoot past the 57.2 volt absorb setting and destroyed the batteries. In one case a battery blew its top off. The other we caught in time and shut it down. That one had some bad cells in 3 strings of 8 (not the one I installed) and when I arrived there the room was HOT from the boiling batteries. I replaced them with 2 strings of 8 and though I was skeptical about the charge rate being stable, left it to the owner to monitor. That was last year and he has recently called to have me check a potential overcharging issue. The other one I installed with 8 L16 batteries in a grid tie application and the after several years of working properly suddenly started overcharging out of control. WHen the customer called saying that the batteries were overheating, I told him to switch the inverter to bypass and shut all the DC switches off. I was at the Midwest Enegy Fair and not able to check it out right away. When I returned, I filled the batteries up and turned the system on and the voltage shot up past 60 then 65 volts and I shut it down. Fast forward 2 years... Schneider techs finally admitted that there was a firmware problem and after much agrivation getting the firmware updated with no internet and poor phone coverage, got it back working OK. Fast forward again 2 more years, problem is back. I have the system set to charge at 1 amp and am able to at least keep the inverter on to sell his solar power. Ready to start round 3 with Schneider, this time with internet and good phone service By the way, I have never had overcharge issues with Outback unless my settings were too high. Someone mentioned lack of overcharge protection on some Lithium BMS's. I know for a fact that the Fortress E-flex does when I forgot to change from very high lead acid settings on the Outback Radian when installing the Fortress batteries. They nicely shut down at 60 volts and turned back on after I stopped the overcharge. John Blittersdorf On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 12:17 AM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We just had a complete failure of a set of four Simpliphi 3.8 KWh > batteries, 48 v. It has completely changed my thoughts on Li+ for off > grid. This set lasted 5 years, which is about equal to bottom of the > barrel Golf Cart batteries. The RMA/ Warranty process has not been > smooth. It took almost a week to even get shipping info from Simpliphi, > and then another week to deal with Hazmat issues, and get Fed Ex to accept > used Li+ batteries for shipment. To their credit, tech support has been > knowledgeable, responsive, and available by phone while on site. > > Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but then a month ago, after > several days of cloudy weather, the system shut down due to low voltage. > (so far, fairly typical off grid winter situation) When the customer > started the generator and tried to revive the system, he noticed one of the > batteries didn't seem to be taking a charge, so after consulting with > Simpliphi, he charged each battery separately with a small aux charger. I > checked this charger and it was quite stable at a max of 58 v. By the time > I arrived, all 4 batteries would not accept even milliamps of charge > current. The BMSs had all disconnected the batteries from the buss, but > strangely there was residual voltage (51vdc) on the terminals. It was not > usable however, and crashed to 18 v upon connection to the inverter with no > loads. > > Simpliphi is claiming all the BMS units were fried due to a high voltage > event. Its winter, there was no lightning, and we had both the Outback > FM100 and the Schneider XW programmed according to the Simpliphi > integration guides. BTW, Simpliphi has no high voltage recording, they > just don't like the look of how their electronics fried. Electronics failed > = customer's fault. I think it failed because of the voltage differential > between the low battery voltage and normal charge voltage. If the BMS > can't survive in a typical off grid environment, with proper programming on > industry standard equipment, its not suitable for off grid applications. > Plenty of manus have decided to quit recommending their equipment for off > grid; its a tough gig. > > How many times have we all heard the old '*Manu S blaming Manu X'* snafu > on this list? Simpliphi is saying that the XW can have transient over > voltage events. Well, that should be mentioned in the integration guide, > so we can make an informed decision, and not use that inverter with their > batteries. > > So after paying about 5 times what a set of golf cart batteries would have > cost, my client is looking at having to buy a complete new set. That's > approx. *$1.60/ kWh of use from the old set*. Simpliphi is saying > they'll give us a discount on refurbished units; that is still to be seen. > The customer has been running on an old generator for the past 3 weeks in > sub zero weather at 9000 ft. Also, why would we want to reinstall more of > these, without any assurance that this won't happen again in a couple of > years? > > In 27 years in the off grid business, I have never dealt with such a > complete and sudden battery failure, or with such a rough RMA process, or > with such a poor warranty from a supposedly top tier manu. I thought I was > providing my customer with the best, but now good old flooded lead acid > batteries are all I'm considering for up coming installs. It's 2024, but > lead acid are a known quantity, and with proper maintenance are quite > robust and predictable. Even when they fail, there are plenty of warning > signs beforehand. They also can handle below freezing weather, and I am > just not a fan of the whole '*battery heating do it yourself off Ebay > with pet heaters'* BS either. > > *Li+ is just not ready for off grid.* It seems to work fine for folks > that don't rely on it, like GTB. > > At least if something like EG4 fails, its price point is not too far off > of lead acid. Simpliphi (now Briggs and Stratton) at almost $800/ kWh? We > were counting on you, we sold these batteries to many clients under the > guise that this was NOT a *'Fly by night/ made in China*' offering. > Based on cycle life, this should have lasted a lifetime. I hate being > wrong. I can only pray that more of these high price tag batteries don't > start failing on my watch. > > I've been holding this rant back for a while, trying to give Simpliphi a > chance to make this right. However, this week I heard their "diagnosis", > and then I saw Jay's timely post? I knew it was time. > > Sincerely, > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > On 2/7/2024 9:19 AM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > One of the things that I’m just now learning is about BMS > failure/warranty/fix/replacement. > > Some can be field installed some need to go back to the OEM. > > I guess its something else we need to check on. > > Jay > > > > On Feb 7, 2024, at 9:06 AM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Read the warranty. Very limited uses to maintain coverage. Mfg by an > Italian Co that is somewhat condescending toward customers. But of course > East Penn is good to work with. My understanding is that they do work with > the three phase Sol-Ark inverters. > > Brad > > On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 4:52 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Pals: >> >> >> Anyone have any experience with this product, good or bad? >> >> >> https://www.mkbattery.com/products/energy-storage#deka >> >> >> We have had excellent results using their flooded and valve regulated >> lead-acid batteries. >> >> >> William >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Feb 10 13:09:23 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2024 10:09:23 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: <92d29e2a-6619-4c61-8b62-2e39f9576ada@coveoregon.com> References: <20fa293e8ba0deb2f52ba7ab1c8630d0@redwoodalliance.org> <92d29e2a-6619-4c61-8b62-2e39f9576ada@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: Kent: You raise a good point. I am now trying to correlate voltage versus SOC versus battery current. I do know that after the system shut down and with zero battery current (at rest condition) the battery voltage was 48 and the SOC was in the mid 50s. The event code was a low battery shutdown. 48 volts at rest should not be 50% SOC. It should read 0% or 10%, at most. Fortress tech support opined that the SOC was out of calibration and I needed to charge to 54.4. I did so and the readings now make more sense and the generator will now auto start. I’m pretty confident we had an error in SOC calibration but, per your point, it did not necessarily occur suddenly or at the moment in time I suspected. Per the general subject of this thread I still think that SOC calibration errors are a real scenario. For SI systems this can have greater consequences than for systems not so dependent on SOC. I think we agree that any SOC reading should be treated with some skepticism. Thanks for pointing out something I missed. William Miller PS: I am curious as to what you meant by: “At least with lithium batteries the SOC meter doesn't need to account for the return current dropping down as is required with lead-acid batteries.” I want to learn as much as I can about all available battery technology. WM Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Fri, Feb 9, 2024 at 3:19 PM Kent via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > William, > > I think that the SOC determined by lithium BMSs come with similar accuracy > issues that occur with the Trimetric, FNDC, Magnum BMK,... - small > measurement errors integrated over a long time become big errors. That's > why Fortress (and every SOC meter) is saying that the battery needs to > reach 54.4 volts once a week for recalibration. At least with lithium > batteries the SOC meter doesn't need to account for the return current > dropping down as is required with lead-acid batteries. The internal BMSs > probably do a better job of estimating the SOC than these external devices, > but I do not expect them to be perfect. Same goes with everyone's electric > car, while we put a lot of faith in the displayed SOC it probably isn't > much better than ±5% and if it were off by 10% you probably wouldn't know. > > In regards to your graph showing a big voltage difference between two 55% > SOC occurrences over a 12 hour time frame. I question your assumption that > the voltage should be the same. The data show different voltages for the > same SOC, it seems unlikely that the BMS measurement drifted by enough to > make that happen, so I think the data shown may both be correct within > reason. The voltage of lithium cells is highly load dependent (probably > somewhat temperature dependent too) so perhaps the Fortress battery is > actually close to right at both times. > > Since using the SI SOC meter for starting the generator is problematic, an > external device for starting based on voltage is a good idea. If you want > a ready to go product to do that, I think the Morningstar relay driver will > work well. A little difficult to program or reprogram but very reliable. > One issue you will observe is that the generator won't start at a > consistent SOC as indicated by the battery or the SI. > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > > On 2/9/2024 11:27 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Dave: > > > > I have to disagree with you here. To my knowledge every SOC system relies > on coulomb counting and applying an efficiency value. That efficiency > value is dependent on changing variables such as temperature, age of the > batteries, charge rate, discharge rate-- to name a few. Every SOC system I > have studied requires periodic recalibration. Maybe Discover is different > but here is my experience with Fortress. > > > > Below is a chart of SOC versus Battery Voltage for a 4 Sunny Island system > in a closed loop installation with 5 Fortress E-vaults: > > > > > > Inside the ellipse note that at 6:00AM the SOC is 55% and the battery > voltage is about 50.8. At 4:00PM pm the same day SOC is again at 55% but > the battery voltage is about 50.0 VDC. This is a drift in calibration of > 0.8 VDC in 10 hours. In the context of LiFePo4 systems 0.8 VDC is a lot. > Because this is closed loop, the drift was created in the BMS units, not > the Sunny Island. > > > > Drake, to your question: The consequences depend on how much the system > relies on SOC for operational mode decisions. I work almost exclusively > with Outback and SMA SI and primarily in the off-grid segment. Since the > SI is SOC-centric, the consequences experienced during the period charted > above was that the system failed to start the generator and the system shut > down. > > > > I am new to the use of Lithium batteries and don’t work a lot with SI so > it took me two trips to figure out what was happening. The diagnosis was > complicated by a failed SD card and a catastrophic generator failure > (shorted windings). It took a few days to get a replacement generator and > the interim the Fortress BMSs failed to recalibrate and this caused the > incorrect correlation between VDC and SOC. > > > > In conversation with Fortress tech support I was advised to make sure the > battery voltage gets to 54.4 at least once per week. This is the voltage > at which the E-vaults recalibrate SOC. During the winter this is sometimes > difficult to do. I can’t rely on the SI generator to auto-start and > achieve 54.4 because it triggers on SOC values and if those values are > wrong then the generator may shutoff prematurely, failing to reach 54.4. > In this case the generator failed to start at all as a direct result of > inaccurate SOC and the system crashed, causing an inconvenience to the > client and to me. > > > > There are some settings on the SI that may force a full charge but I > haven’t drilled down yet to see if this can be configured to ensure that > 54.4 once per week. If anyone has experience with this and can chime in it > may save me some time. I suspect all settings rely on SOC so there will be > no built in solution. > > > > If the inverter here was an Outback and I was not relying on an FNDC to > control generator start (which I never do), this problem would not happen. > The Outback would react to battery voltage only, as monitored over three > different time periods. This is a superior method for sure. > > > > Battery inverters are very smart these days, but sometimes not quite smart > enough… > > > > Drake, thanks for asking. > > > > William > > > > PS: Brainstorming a solutions here: > > > > A: I am sure I could program an Arduino or Raspberry Pi to take over > generator auto-start duties. I don’t prefer homemade solutions because of > the time required to develop and test and I am not good at building > interfaces. > > > > B: Maybe I could install a Mate3s and one FM60 charge controller. The > charge controller would not connect to PV because this is an AC coupled > system, but if were connected to the batteries it could monitor battery > voltage and the internal aux relay could control the generator. > > > > Ideas, anyone? > > > > WM > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Friday, February 9, 2024 9:29 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark > > > > Hi Drake, > > > > I do not think there is a lack of accuracy in a good closed loop LFP > battery system. The steep curve of Lithium is just not accurate for voltage > and the Soc measurement from a quality BMS is super accurate. > > > > All I use is the Discover AES and unlike others here, I do not have any > issues over 4 years and 45 mostly Offgrid homes. > > The closed loop UL 9540 systems save alot of fuel in generator use, are simple, and have happy clients for me. > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* > > *"we go where powerlines don't"* > > * https://offgridsolar1.com/ * > > *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net * > > *text 209 813 0060* > > > > On 2024-02-09 8:05 am, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > > How does the lack of accuracy in SOC detection affect the usefulness of > closed loop systems? > > *Drake Chamberlin* > > *Athens Electric LLC* > > *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* > > > > On 2024-02-05 11:36, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Jason: > > > > I am careful about getting my clients too dependent on SOC readings. SOC > is a calculated value based on changing variables and is notoriously > inaccurate. > > > > Below is a screenshot of the Optics reporting for a client. The graph > line that begins as the lower of the two is the SOC, the other is voltage. > The SOC is out of calibration until about noon when it jumps from about 20% > to about 80%. This does not mean the SOC changed by that amount, it means > that it was just very wrong. Who knows when it is correct? > > > > In spite of repeated entreaties this client still reads the SOC and > becomes concerned when it gets low-- even if the voltage level indicates > the batteries are well charged. I have to deal with his misplaced anxiety. > > > > > > *Error! Filename not specified.**Error! Filename not specified.**Error! > Filename not specified.* > > > > This problem appears to occur across all battery/inverter technology. For > example, SMA touts their "coulomb counting" as more accurate than others > but I have witnessed otherwise. You'd think that BMS units built by > lithium manufacturers for their own products would be consistently accurate > but even those BMS units need to recalibrate frequently, this according to > the battery manufacturer's engineers. > > > > It would be nice to offer clients a simple, accurate method of > ascertaining battery charge levels. SOC is not that method. I train my > clients to watch voltage levels and to understand these values are > elastic. If you can see trends in the battery voltage, so much the better. > This is why I like the Outback Optics interface. This is also why a good > AGS system examines battery voltage over time. > > > > I no longer install Outback FNDC units. Without them there is no SOC > reading. I don't install Sunny Island systems—they are SOC centered and > suffer for it. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Sunday, February 4, 2024 7:30 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark > > > > Are there any off the shelf solutions to view battery SOC via a wired > meter mounted remotely on a property? I have a client with a simple voltage > based meter for lead acid batteries that they are accustomed to using as a > quick and approximate gauge of SOC. They want something similar for their > new Sol-Ark with EG4 LL batteries. > > > > They will have smartphone app visibility, but they want something they can > see inside the house without picking up a phone or going out to the > inverter. Ideally the SOC will come from the inverter or the battery > itself, not an external source (to avoid discrepancies). > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 153836 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Sat Feb 10 16:40:27 2024 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2024 13:40:27 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: <20fa293e8ba0deb2f52ba7ab1c8630d0@redwoodalliance.org> <92d29e2a-6619-4c61-8b62-2e39f9576ada@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: William This comment PS:  I am curious as to what you meant by: “At least with lithium batteries the SOC meter doesn't need to account for the return current dropping down as is required with lead-acid batteries.” is regarding the two plus hours lead-acid batteries need for absorption time with constant voltage and decreasing charge current. Most lithium batteries need little or no absorption time. Get them to 54.4 volts (or whatever is specified) and in a few minutes they are done. That takes one variable out of the "full" calculation that coulomb counting SOC meters use for re-calibration to 100%. Battery state of charge meters that are counting amphours are over simplifying things. A battery's full charge capacity, lithium or lead-acid, changes with temperature and (particularly with lead acid-batteries) with load. The full charge capacity is changing with age. It's complicated so we can't expect them to be perfect. I also stopped using the Outback FNDC because it would reset to say 100% at inappropriate times. Spent lots of time collecting data to demonstrate the flaw to Outback; the FNDC is still operating with firmware 1.0. They don't get my business. Without a SOC meter I've struggled with lithium batteries trying to find the right voltage to start the generator. Don't want things shutting down. Do want to use a large fraction of battery capacity. But the voltage is so load dependent that it is hard to find the spot to start the generator. Spring is about here! Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 2/10/2024 10:09 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > Kent: > > You raise a good point. I am now trying to correlate voltage versus > SOC versus battery current. > > I do know that after the system shut down and with zero battery > current (at rest condition) the battery voltage was 48 and the SOC was > in the mid 50s. The event code was a low battery shutdown. 48 volts at > rest should not be 50% SOC. It should read 0% or 10%, at most. > > Fortress tech support opined that the SOC was out of calibration and I > needed to charge to 54.4. I did so and the readings now make more > sense and the generator will now auto start. > > I’m pretty confident we had an error in SOC calibration but, per your > point, it did not necessarily occur suddenly or at the moment in time > I suspected. > > Per the general subject of this thread I still think that SOC > calibration errors are a real scenario. For SI systems this can have > greater consequences than for systems not so dependent on SOC. I think > we agree that any SOC reading should be treated with some skepticism. > > Thanks for pointing out something I missed. > > William Miller > > PS:  I am curious as to what you meant by: “At least with lithium > batteries the SOC meter doesn't need to account for the return current > dropping down as is required with lead-acid batteries.”  I want to > learn as much as I can about all available battery technology. > > WM > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Fri, Feb 9, 2024 at 3:19 PM Kent via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > William, > > I think that the SOC determined by lithium BMSs come with similar > accuracy issues that occur with the Trimetric, FNDC, Magnum > BMK,... - small measurement errors integrated over a long time > become big errors. That's why Fortress (and every SOC meter) is > saying that the battery needs to reach 54.4 volts once a week for > recalibration. At least with lithium batteries the SOC meter > doesn't need to account for the return current dropping down as is > required with lead-acid batteries. The internal BMSs probably do a > better job of estimating the SOC than these external devices, but > I do not expect them to be perfect. Same goes with everyone's > electric car, while we put a lot of faith in the displayed SOC it > probably isn't much better than ±5% and if it were off by 10% you > probably wouldn't know. > > In regards to your graph showing a big voltage difference between > two 55% SOC occurrences over a 12 hour time frame. I question your > assumption that the voltage  should be the same. The data show > different voltages for the same SOC, it seems unlikely that the > BMS measurement drifted by enough to make that happen, so I think > the data shown may both be correct within reason. The voltage of > lithium cells is highly load dependent (probably somewhat > temperature dependent too) so perhaps the Fortress battery is > actually close to right at both times. > > Since using the SI SOC meter for starting the generator is > problematic, an external device for starting based on voltage is a > good idea.  If you want a ready to go product to do that, I think > the Morningstar relay driver will work well. A little difficult to > program or reprogram but very reliable. One issue you will observe > is that the generator won't start at a consistent SOC as indicated > by the battery or the SI. > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Mon Feb 12 10:56:55 2024 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2024 10:56:55 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: Cantilevered array In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: How do you deal with the rain gutters? Drake Chamberlin Media & Communication Action Project https://m-cap.org/ --- On 2024-02-08 16:46, Sky Sims via RE-wrenches wrote: > I've designed and installed several thousand cantilevered arrays over the last three decades and never had a single issue. Unfortunately, code changes have taken a turn for the worse in most jurisdictions and oftentimes disallow cantilevering. > > Sky Sims > Https://EcologicalSystems.org > 732-462-3858 > >> On Jan 19, 2024, at 3:09 PM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I've done a fair amount of roof mounted solar structural compliance, and I would say that the cantilevered design looks like a disaster waiting to happen. You could not use conventional solar racking products. Chris > > On 1/13/2024 12:42 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Drake > > My earlier reply may have been a bit facetious. What I meant by it was that big-box solar contractors can be lazy when it comes to solar design. They will rely totally on satellite imagery and not check the design on the ground. This is how you get solar proposed for shaded areas, where skylights and roof vents are located, or overhanging thin air. This may be what is happening in the image you shared. > > What is unique here is someone actually specified overhanging panels. Looking more closely at the image, a roof outline is shown but it is not clear that the outline is actually situated over a building. It almost looks like there is landscaped area inside the outline. > > The solution of course is to get on out there, measure the roof and any obstructions and analyze the shading. I use the Sun Seeker [1] app for IOS for the shading analysis. > > William > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com [2] > > CA Lic. 773985 > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches > Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2024 8:47 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: Cantilevered array > > Here is a larger snip of the situation. > > > > Label says overhang from upper roof. > > _Drake Chamberlin_ > > _Athens Electric LLC_ > > _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ > > _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ > > --- > > On 2024-01-12 07:29, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > Are you sure that's what you're looking at? To me, that looks like there was an addition made to the house, and maybe it's a multi-pitch roof. That lower part might be a covered wrap-around porch. > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 5:59 PM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I was given a drawing, produced by a very large solar company, showing the array cantilevered over the edge of the roof by several feet. > > > > Notice how the array hangs out over the lawn for several feet. Is there anyway that this is a legitimate way to mount modules? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > _Drake Chamberlin_ > > _Athens Electric LLC_ > > _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ > > _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Christopher Warfel ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] https://apps.apple.com/us/app/sun-seeker-tracker-surveyor/id330247123 [2] http://www.millersolar.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Mon Feb 12 11:02:31 2024 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2024 11:02:31 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: Cantilevered array In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, in what way?  The loading is obviously less, and the clamps are rated for the load. On 2/12/2024 10:56 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > How do you deal with the rain gutters? > > > Drake Chamberlin > > Media & Communication Action Project > > https://m-cap.org/ > > --- > > > On 2024-02-08 16:46, Sky Sims via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> I've designed and installed several thousand cantilevered arrays over >> the last three decades and never had a single issue. Unfortunately, >> code changes have taken a turn for the worse in most jurisdictions >> and oftentimes disallow cantilevering. >> >> Sky Sims >> Https://EcologicalSystems.org >> 732-462-3858 >> >>> On Jan 19, 2024, at 3:09 PM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>> I've done a fair amount of roof mounted solar structural compliance, >>> and I would say that the cantilevered design looks like a disaster >>> waiting to happen. You could not use conventional solar racking >>> products.  Chris >>> >>> >>> >>> On 1/13/2024 12:42 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> >>>> Drake >>>> >>>> My earlier reply may have been a bit facetious.  What I meant by it >>>> was that big-box solar contractors can be lazy when it comes to >>>> solar design. They will rely totally on satellite imagery and not >>>> check the design on the ground.  This is how you get solar proposed >>>> for shaded areas, where skylights and roof vents are located, or >>>> overhanging thin air.  This may be what is happening in the image >>>> you shared. >>>> >>>> What is unique here is someone actually specified overhanging >>>> panels.  Looking more closely at the image, a roof outline is shown >>>> but it is not clear that the outline is actually situated over a >>>> building.  It almost looks like there is landscaped area inside the >>>> outline. >>>> >>>> The solution of course is to get on out there, measure the roof and >>>> any obstructions and analyze the shading.  I use the Sun Seeker >>>> >>>> app for IOS for the shading analysis. >>>> >>>> William >>>> >>>> Miller Solar >>>> >>>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>>> >>>> 805-438-5600 >>>> >>>> www.millersolar.com >>>> >>>> CA Lic. 773985 >>>> >>>> *From:*RE-wrenches >>>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> ] *On Behalf Of >>>> *Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches >>>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 13, 2024 8:47 AM >>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>>> *Cc:* drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org >>>> >>>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: Cantilevered array >>>> >>>> ** >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ** >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ** >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ** >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Here is a larger snip of the situation. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Label says overhang from upper roof. >>>> >>>> /Drake Chamberlin/ >>>> >>>> /Athens Electric LLC/ >>>> >>>> /Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810/ >>>> >>>> /NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional/ >>>> >>>> --- >>>> >>>> On 2024-01-12 07:29, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>> >>>> Are you sure that's what you're looking at? To me, that looks >>>> like there was an addition made to the house, and maybe it's a >>>> multi-pitch roof. That lower part might be a covered >>>> wrap-around porch. >>>> >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> >>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 5:59 PM Drake Chamberlin via >>>> RE-wrenches >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> I was given a drawing, produced by a very large solar >>>> company, showing the array cantilevered over the edge of >>>> the roof by several feet. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Notice how the array hangs out over the lawn for several >>>> feet. Is there anyway that this is a legitimate way to >>>> mount modules? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Drake >>>> >>>> /Drake Chamberlin/ >>>> >>>> /Athens Electric LLC/ >>>> >>>> /Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810/ >>>> >>>> /NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional/ >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>>> work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> -- >>> Christopher Warfel >>>                  ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >>> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>>                 401-466-8978 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>> try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> -- Christopher Warfel           ENTECH Engineering Inc.    PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                   401-477-5773 EE Logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/vcard Size: 203 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Feb 12 14:35:50 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2024 12:35:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW EQ question In-Reply-To: References: <20fa293e8ba0deb2f52ba7ab1c8630d0@redwoodalliance.org> <92d29e2a-6619-4c61-8b62-2e39f9576ada@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: <8F2C89A8-E578-49CF-9F7B-055B527F9A0E@gmail.com> HI All, I have a client with an older XW 6048 with 2 x XW-60 controllers, SCP etc. He can’t seem to get the EQ to work with either equipment. Its set to 62.4v for Rolls flooded batteries, but it won’t go above 60v. It is charging normally to just at 60v so its not a temp sensor failure. Any thoughts? thanks jay From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Mon Feb 12 18:36:13 2024 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2024 23:36:13 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW EQ question In-Reply-To: <8F2C89A8-E578-49CF-9F7B-055B527F9A0E@gmail.com> References: <20fa293e8ba0deb2f52ba7ab1c8630d0@redwoodalliance.org> <92d29e2a-6619-4c61-8b62-2e39f9576ada@coveoregon.com> <8F2C89A8-E578-49CF-9F7B-055B527F9A0E@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have seen the same behaviour on a few older XW6048's as well - including my own. It will go into EQ mode after completion of Absorb charge, but voltage does not increase as programmed. Adjusting the absorb settings manually is a clumsy workaround. I assumed it's a software bug. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of jay via RE-wrenches Sent: February-12-24 11:36 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: jay Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW EQ question HI All, I have a client with an older XW 6048 with 2 x XW-60 controllers, SCP etc. He can’t seem to get the EQ to work with either equipment. Its set to 62.4v for Rolls flooded batteries, but it won’t go above 60v. It is charging normally to just at 60v so its not a temp sensor failure. Any thoughts? thanks jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Feb 12 18:42:41 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2024 16:42:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW EQ question In-Reply-To: References: <20fa293e8ba0deb2f52ba7ab1c8630d0@redwoodalliance.org> <92d29e2a-6619-4c61-8b62-2e39f9576ada@coveoregon.com> <8F2C89A8-E578-49CF-9F7B-055B527F9A0E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Kevin Thanks, I heard that exact thing from someone else. Do you know if the CC are connected via Xanbus, does that also prevent EQ in the CC? Jay > On Feb 12, 2024, at 4:36 PM, Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I have seen the same behaviour on a few older XW6048's as well - including my own. It will go into EQ mode after completion of Absorb charge, but voltage does not increase as programmed. Adjusting the absorb settings manually is a clumsy workaround. I assumed it's a software bug. > > Kevin > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of jay via RE-wrenches > Sent: February-12-24 11:36 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: jay > Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW EQ question > > HI All, > > I have a client with an older XW 6048 with 2 x XW-60 controllers, SCP etc. > > He can’t seem to get the EQ to work with either equipment. > > Its set to 62.4v for Rolls flooded batteries, but it won’t go above 60v. > > It is charging normally to just at 60v so its not a temp sensor failure. > > Any thoughts? > > thanks > > jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From ray at solarray.com Mon Feb 12 20:47:50 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2024 18:47:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW EQ question In-Reply-To: References: <20fa293e8ba0deb2f52ba7ab1c8630d0@redwoodalliance.org> <92d29e2a-6619-4c61-8b62-2e39f9576ada@coveoregon.com> <8F2C89A8-E578-49CF-9F7B-055B527F9A0E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <45fbac60-7742-4318-9f72-2ed6abc4f5f4@solarray.com> What's funny, is the good old SWs from the Trace days had the same problem.   Never could get them to equalize.  Maybe that software carried over. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 2/12/2024 4:42 PM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Kevin > > Thanks, I heard that exact thing from someone else. > > Do you know if the CC are connected via Xanbus, does that also prevent EQ in the CC? > > Jay > >> On Feb 12, 2024, at 4:36 PM, Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> I have seen the same behaviour on a few older XW6048's as well - including my own. It will go into EQ mode after completion of Absorb charge, but voltage does not increase as programmed. Adjusting the absorb settings manually is a clumsy workaround. I assumed it's a software bug. >> >> Kevin >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of jay via RE-wrenches >> Sent: February-12-24 11:36 AM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Cc: jay >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW EQ question >> >> HI All, >> >> I have a client with an older XW 6048 with 2 x XW-60 controllers, SCP etc. >> >> He can’t seem to get the EQ to work with either equipment. >> >> Its set to 62.4v for Rolls flooded batteries, but it won’t go above 60v. >> >> It is charging normally to just at 60v so its not a temp sensor failure. >> >> Any thoughts? >> >> thanks >> >> jay >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Mon Feb 12 22:15:45 2024 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2024 03:15:45 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW EQ question In-Reply-To: References: <20fa293e8ba0deb2f52ba7ab1c8630d0@redwoodalliance.org> <92d29e2a-6619-4c61-8b62-2e39f9576ada@coveoregon.com> <8F2C89A8-E578-49CF-9F7B-055B527F9A0E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay, I've not tried EQ via CC. But could try that tomorrow on my system as forecast is for lots of sun and batteries nearly full. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of jay via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, February 12, 2024 3:43 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: jay Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] XW EQ question Hi Kevin Thanks, I heard that exact thing from someone else. Do you know if the CC are connected via Xanbus, does that also prevent EQ in the CC? Jay > On Feb 12, 2024, at 4:36 PM, Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I have seen the same behaviour on a few older XW6048's as well - including my own. It will go into EQ mode after completion of Absorb charge, but voltage does not increase as programmed. Adjusting the absorb settings manually is a clumsy workaround. I assumed it's a software bug. > > Kevin > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of jay via RE-wrenches > Sent: February-12-24 11:36 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: jay > Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW EQ question > > HI All, > > I have a client with an older XW 6048 with 2 x XW-60 controllers, SCP etc. > > He can’t seem to get the EQ to work with either equipment. > > Its set to 62.4v for Rolls flooded batteries, but it won’t go above 60v. > > It is charging normally to just at 60v so its not a temp sensor failure. > > Any thoughts? > > thanks > > jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Mon Feb 12 22:18:11 2024 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2024 03:18:11 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries In-Reply-To: References: <8abd261fbbef5da192be5e2f05002f0d@mail.gmail.com> <5659EF89-83B6-407B-AFAD-08271727FD03@gmail.com> <40059d54-7f28-4e8b-98d3-f5b04517e6a8@solarray.com> Message-ID: Hi John, Do you know what firmware version was causing your initial over-voltage situation? Kevin From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, February 9, 2024 8:09 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: John Blittersdorf Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries Ray, With this batch of posts about lithium batteriem and several mentions of XW inverters and overcharging, I just have to chime in with my experience with one I installed and one installed by someone else. Both were charging 48V L16 wet cell batteries. In both cases with charge settings double checked and triple checked, I had both shoot past the 57.2 volt absorb setting and destroyed the batteries. In one case a battery blew its top off. The other we caught in time and shut it down. That one had some bad cells in 3 strings of 8 (not the one I installed) and when I arrived there the room was HOT from the boiling batteries. I replaced them with 2 strings of 8 and though I was skeptical about the charge rate being stable, left it to the owner to monitor. That was last year and he has recently called to have me check a potential overcharging issue. The other one I installed with 8 L16 batteries in a grid tie application and the after several years of working properly suddenly started overcharging out of control. WHen the customer called saying that the batteries were overheating, I told him to switch the inverter to bypass and shut all the DC switches off. I was at the Midwest Enegy Fair and not able to check it out right away. When I returned, I filled the batteries up and turned the system on and the voltage shot up past 60 then 65 volts and I shut it down. Fast forward 2 years... Schneider techs finally admitted that there was a firmware problem and after much agrivation getting the firmware updated with no internet and poor phone coverage, got it back working OK. Fast forward again 2 more years, problem is back. I have the system set to charge at 1 amp and am able to at least keep the inverter on to sell his solar power. Ready to start round 3 with Schneider, this time with internet and good phone service By the way, I have never had overcharge issues with Outback unless my settings were too high. Someone mentioned lack of overcharge protection on some Lithium BMS's. I know for a fact that the Fortress E-flex does when I forgot to change from very high lead acid settings on the Outback Radian when installing the Fortress batteries. They nicely shut down at 60 volts and turned back on after I stopped the overcharge. John Blittersdorf On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 12:17 AM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > wrote: We just had a complete failure of a set of four Simpliphi 3.8 KWh batteries, 48 v. It has completely changed my thoughts on Li+ for off grid. This set lasted 5 years, which is about equal to bottom of the barrel Golf Cart batteries. The RMA/ Warranty process has not been smooth. It took almost a week to even get shipping info from Simpliphi, and then another week to deal with Hazmat issues, and get Fed Ex to accept used Li+ batteries for shipment. To their credit, tech support has been knowledgeable, responsive, and available by phone while on site. Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but then a month ago, after several days of cloudy weather, the system shut down due to low voltage. (so far, fairly typical off grid winter situation) When the customer started the generator and tried to revive the system, he noticed one of the batteries didn't seem to be taking a charge, so after consulting with Simpliphi, he charged each battery separately with a small aux charger. I checked this charger and it was quite stable at a max of 58 v. By the time I arrived, all 4 batteries would not accept even milliamps of charge current. The BMSs had all disconnected the batteries from the buss, but strangely there was residual voltage (51vdc) on the terminals. It was not usable however, and crashed to 18 v upon connection to the inverter with no loads. Simpliphi is claiming all the BMS units were fried due to a high voltage event. Its winter, there was no lightning, and we had both the Outback FM100 and the Schneider XW programmed according to the Simpliphi integration guides. BTW, Simpliphi has no high voltage recording, they just don't like the look of how their electronics fried. Electronics failed = customer's fault. I think it failed because of the voltage differential between the low battery voltage and normal charge voltage. If the BMS can't survive in a typical off grid environment, with proper programming on industry standard equipment, its not suitable for off grid applications. Plenty of manus have decided to quit recommending their equipment for off grid; its a tough gig. How many times have we all heard the old 'Manu S blaming Manu X' snafu on this list? Simpliphi is saying that the XW can have transient over voltage events. Well, that should be mentioned in the integration guide, so we can make an informed decision, and not use that inverter with their batteries. So after paying about 5 times what a set of golf cart batteries would have cost, my client is looking at having to buy a complete new set. That's approx. $1.60/ kWh of use from the old set. Simpliphi is saying they'll give us a discount on refurbished units; that is still to be seen. The customer has been running on an old generator for the past 3 weeks in sub zero weather at 9000 ft. Also, why would we want to reinstall more of these, without any assurance that this won't happen again in a couple of years? In 27 years in the off grid business, I have never dealt with such a complete and sudden battery failure, or with such a rough RMA process, or with such a poor warranty from a supposedly top tier manu. I thought I was providing my customer with the best, but now good old flooded lead acid batteries are all I'm considering for up coming installs. It's 2024, but lead acid are a known quantity, and with proper maintenance are quite robust and predictable. Even when they fail, there are plenty of warning signs beforehand. They also can handle below freezing weather, and I am just not a fan of the whole 'battery heating do it yourself off Ebay with pet heaters' BS either. Li+ is just not ready for off grid. It seems to work fine for folks that don't rely on it, like GTB. At least if something like EG4 fails, its price point is not too far off of lead acid. Simpliphi (now Briggs and Stratton) at almost $800/ kWh? We were counting on you, we sold these batteries to many clients under the guise that this was NOT a 'Fly by night/ made in China' offering. Based on cycle life, this should have lasted a lifetime. I hate being wrong. I can only pray that more of these high price tag batteries don't start failing on my watch. I've been holding this rant back for a while, trying to give Simpliphi a chance to make this right. However, this week I heard their "diagnosis", and then I saw Jay's timely post? I knew it was time. Sincerely, Ray Walters Remote Solar On 2/7/2024 9:19 AM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: One of the things that I’m just now learning is about BMS failure/warranty/fix/replacement. Some can be field installed some need to go back to the OEM. I guess its something else we need to check on. Jay On Feb 7, 2024, at 9:06 AM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches > wrote: Read the warranty. Very limited uses to maintain coverage. Mfg by an Italian Co that is somewhat condescending toward customers. But of course East Penn is good to work with. My understanding is that they do work with the three phase Sol-Ark inverters. Brad On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 4:52 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: Pals: Anyone have any experience with this product, good or bad? https://www.mkbattery.com/products/energy-storage#deka We have had excellent results using their flooded and valve regulated lead-acid batteries. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Feb 13 10:54:46 2024 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2024 10:54:46 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: Cantilevered array In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If the array covers the rain gutters, doesn't that prevent the gutters from catching rain? Doesn't the edge of the extended modules form a drip edge, where water will not be diverted by the gutters, but hit the ground directly? Will the gutters be accessible for future maintenance? _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ --- On 2024-02-12 11:02, Christopher Warfel wrote: > Hi, in what way? The loading is obviously less, and the clamps are rated for the load. > > On 2/12/2024 10:56 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > How do you deal with the rain gutters? > > Drake Chamberlin > > Media & Communication Action Project > > https://m-cap.org/ > > --- > > On 2024-02-08 16:46, Sky Sims via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I've designed and installed several thousand cantilevered arrays over the last three decades and never had a single issue. Unfortunately, code changes have taken a turn for the worse in most jurisdictions and oftentimes disallow cantilevering. > > Sky Sims > Https://EcologicalSystems.org > 732-462-3858 > > On Jan 19, 2024, at 3:09 PM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I've done a fair amount of roof mounted solar structural compliance, and I would say that the cantilevered design looks like a disaster waiting to happen. You could not use conventional solar racking products. Chris > > On 1/13/2024 12:42 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Drake > > My earlier reply may have been a bit facetious. What I meant by it was that big-box solar contractors can be lazy when it comes to solar design. They will rely totally on satellite imagery and not check the design on the ground. This is how you get solar proposed for shaded areas, where skylights and roof vents are located, or overhanging thin air. This may be what is happening in the image you shared. > > What is unique here is someone actually specified overhanging panels. Looking more closely at the image, a roof outline is shown but it is not clear that the outline is actually situated over a building. It almost looks like there is landscaped area inside the outline. > > The solution of course is to get on out there, measure the roof and any obstructions and analyze the shading. I use the Sun Seeker [1] app for IOS for the shading analysis. > > William > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com [2] > > CA Lic. 773985 > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches > Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2024 8:47 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: Cantilevered array > > Here is a larger snip of the situation. > > > > Label says overhang from upper roof. > > _Drake Chamberlin_ > > _Athens Electric LLC_ > > _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ > > _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ > > --- > > On 2024-01-12 07:29, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > Are you sure that's what you're looking at? To me, that looks like there was an addition made to the house, and maybe it's a multi-pitch roof. That lower part might be a covered wrap-around porch. > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 5:59 PM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I was given a drawing, produced by a very large solar company, showing the array cantilevered over the edge of the roof by several feet. > > > > Notice how the array hangs out over the lawn for several feet. Is there anyway that this is a legitimate way to mount modules? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > _Drake Chamberlin_ > > _Athens Electric LLC_ > > _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ > > _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Christopher Warfel ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Christopher Warfel ENTECH Engineering Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-477-5773 [3] Links: ------ [1] https://apps.apple.com/us/app/sun-seeker-tracker-surveyor/id330247123 [2] http://www.millersolar.com/ [3] https://entech-engineering.com/Home/default.php -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Feb 13 11:03:42 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2024 08:03:42 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: Cantilevered array In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good question about rain shedding. My questions for Sky: were the installations evaluated by a structural engineer to calculate ability to withstand wind effects and snow load? What roof anchors were recommended? William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 7:55 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > If the array covers the rain gutters, doesn't that prevent the gutters > from catching rain? Doesn't the edge of the extended modules form a drip > edge, where water will not be diverted by the gutters, but hit the ground > directly? > > Will the gutters be accessible for future maintenance? > > > *Drake Chamberlin* > > *Athens Electric LLC* > > *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* > --- > > > > On 2024-02-12 11:02, Christopher Warfel wrote: > > Hi, in what way? The loading is obviously less, and the clamps are rated > for the load. > On 2/12/2024 10:56 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > How do you deal with the rain gutters? > > > Drake Chamberlin > > Media & Communication Action Project > > https://m-cap.org/ > --- > > > > On 2024-02-08 16:46, Sky Sims via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I've designed and installed several thousand cantilevered arrays over the > last three decades and never had a single issue. Unfortunately, code > changes have taken a turn for the worse in most jurisdictions and > oftentimes disallow cantilevering. > > Sky Sims > Https://EcologicalSystems.org > 732-462-3858 > > On Jan 19, 2024, at 3:09 PM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches > > wrote: > > I've done a fair amount of roof mounted solar structural compliance, and > I would say that the cantilevered design looks like a disaster waiting to > happen. You could not use conventional solar racking products. Chris > > > > On 1/13/2024 12:42 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Drake > > > > My earlier reply may have been a bit facetious. What I meant by it was > that big-box solar contractors can be lazy when it comes to solar design. > They will rely totally on satellite imagery and not check the design on the > ground. This is how you get solar proposed for shaded areas, where > skylights and roof vents are located, or overhanging thin air. This may be > what is happening in the image you shared. > > > > What is unique here is someone actually specified overhanging panels. > Looking more closely at the image, a roof outline is shown but it is not > clear that the outline is actually situated over a building. It almost > looks like there is landscaped area inside the outline. > > > > The solution of course is to get on out there, measure the roof and any > obstructions and analyze the shading. I use the Sun Seeker > > app for IOS for the shading analysis. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Saturday, January 13, 2024 8:47 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: Cantilevered array > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here is a larger snip of the situation. > > > > > > > Label says overhang from upper roof. > > > > *Drake Chamberlin* > > *Athens Electric LLC* > > *Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* > > > > --- > > > > > > On 2024-01-12 07:29, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > Are you sure that's what you're looking at? To me, that looks like there > was an addition made to the house, and maybe it's a multi-pitch roof. That > lower part might be a covered wrap-around porch. > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > > > On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 5:59 PM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > I was given a drawing, produced by a very large solar company, showing the > array cantilevered over the edge of the roof by several feet. > > > > > > Notice how the array hangs out over the lawn for several feet. Is there > anyway that this is a legitimate way to mount modules? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Drake > > > > *Drake Chamberlin* > > *Athens Electric LLC* > > *Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* > > > > -- > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > Christopher Warfel > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-466-8978 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > Christopher Warfel > ENTECH Engineering Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-477-5773 > [image: EE Logo] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Feb 13 12:49:58 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2024 09:49:58 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: <9h0r0keflhiv8i4ffj2r2614.1707507360906@email.lge.com> References: <9h0r0keflhiv8i4ffj2r2614.1707507360906@email.lge.com> Message-ID: There are plenty of closed loop partners out there! Even for SMA. You just have to look! It is nice to not have battery problems! I took the webinar on BMS replacement, Just have not done one with the 46 battery systems from AES. Love them with an XWP. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [8] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-02-09 11:38 am, Glenn Burt wrote: > William, > > You are aware that SMA does not support closed loop battery connections > with any manufacturer? > I have had many conversations with trailers and engineers there and > have chisen not to support switching to lithium with SI for tbis > reason. > I think this taints your position in this matter. > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > From: William Miller via RE-wrenches > Date: Fri, Feb 9, 2024 2:33 PM > To: offgridsolar at sti.net;RE-wrenches; > Cc: William Miller; > Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark > > Dave: > > I have to disagree with you here. To my knowledge every SOC system > relies on coulomb counting and applying an efficiency value. That > efficiency value is dependent on changing variables such as > temperature, age of the batteries, charge rate, discharge rate-- to > name a few. Every SOC system I have studied requires periodic > recalibration. Maybe Discover is different but here is my experience > with Fortress. > > Below is a chart of SOC versus Battery Voltage for a 4 Sunny Island > system in a closed loop installation with 5 Fortress E-vaults: > > Inside the ellipse note that at 6:00AM the SOC is 55% and the battery > voltage is about 50.8. At 4:00PM pm the same day SOC is again at 55% > but the battery voltage is about 50.0 VDC. This is a drift in > calibration of 0.8 VDC in 10 hours. In the context of LiFePo4 systems > 0.8 VDC is a lot. Because this is closed loop, the drift was created > in the BMS units, not the Sunny Island. > > Drake, to your question: The consequences depend on how much the > system relies on SOC for operational mode decisions. I work almost > exclusively with Outback and SMA SI and primarily in the off-grid > segment. Since the SI is SOC-centric, the consequences experienced > during the period charted above was that the system failed to start the > generator and the system shut down. > > I am new to the use of Lithium batteries and don't work a lot with SI > so it took me two trips to figure out what was happening. The > diagnosis was complicated by a failed SD card and a catastrophic > generator failure (shorted windings). It took a few days to get a > replacement generator and the interim the Fortress BMSs failed to > recalibrate and this caused the incorrect correlation between VDC and > SOC. > > In conversation with Fortress tech support I was advised to make sure > the battery voltage gets to 54.4 at least once per week. This is the > voltage at which the E-vaults recalibrate SOC. During the winter this > is sometimes difficult to do. I can't rely on the SI generator to > auto-start and achieve 54.4 because it triggers on SOC values and if > those values are wrong then the generator may shutoff prematurely, > failing to reach 54.4. In this case the generator failed to start at > all as a direct result of inaccurate SOC and the system crashed, > causing an inconvenience to the client and to me. > > There are some settings on the SI that may force a full charge but I > haven't drilled down yet to see if this can be configured to ensure > that 54.4 once per week. If anyone has experience with this and can > chime in it may save me some time. I suspect all settings rely on SOC > so there will be no built in solution. > > If the inverter here was an Outback and I was not relying on an FNDC to > control generator start (which I never do), this problem would not > happen. The Outback would react to battery voltage only, as monitored > over three different time periods. This is a superior method for sure. > > Battery inverters are very smart these days, but sometimes not quite > smart enough... > > Drake, thanks for asking. > > William > > PS: Brainstorming a solutions here: > > A: I am sure I could program an Arduino or Raspberry Pi to take over > generator auto-start duties. I don't prefer homemade solutions because > of the time required to develop and test and I am not good at building > interfaces. > > B: Maybe I could install a Mate3s and one FM60 charge controller. The > charge controller would not connect to PV because this is an AC coupled > system, but if were connected to the batteries it could monitor battery > voltage and the internal aux relay could control the generator. > > Ideas, anyone? > > WM > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 [3] > > www.millersolar.com [4] > > CA Lic. 773985 > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches > Sent: Friday, February 9, 2024 9:29 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark > > Hi Drake, > > I do not think there is a lack of accuracy in a good closed loop LFP > battery system. The steep curve of Lithium is just not accurate for > voltage and the Soc measurement from a quality BMS is super accurate. > > All I use is the Discover AES and unlike others here, I do not have any > issues over 4 years and 45 mostly Offgrid homes. > > The closed loop UL 9540 systems save alot of fuel in generator use, are > simple, and have happy clients for me. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > > "we go where powerlines don't" > > [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [1] > > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > > text 209 813 0060 [2] > > On 2024-02-09 8 [5]:05 am, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > > How does the lack of accuracy in SOC detection affect the usefulness of > closed loop systems? > > _Drake Chamberlin_ > > _Athens Electric LLC_ > > _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ > > _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ > > On 2024-02-05 11 [6]:36, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Jason: > > I am careful about getting my clients too dependent on SOC readings. > SOC is a calculated value based on changing variables and is > notoriously inaccurate. > > Below is a screenshot of the Optics reporting for a client. The graph > line that begins as the lower of the two is the SOC, the other is > voltage. The SOC is out of calibration until about noon when it jumps > from about 20% to about 80%. This does not mean the SOC changed by > that amount, it means that it was just very wrong. Who knows when it > is correct? > > In spite of repeated entreaties this client still reads the SOC and > becomes concerned when it gets low-- even if the voltage level > indicates the batteries are well charged. I have to deal with his > misplaced anxiety. > > Error! Filename not specified.Error! Filename not specified.Error! > Filename not specified. > > This problem appears to occur across all battery/inverter technology. > For example, SMA touts their "coulomb counting" as more accurate than > others but I have witnessed otherwise. You'd think that BMS units > built by lithium manufacturers for their own products would be > consistently accurate but even those BMS units need to recalibrate > frequently, this according to the battery manufacturer's engineers. > > It would be nice to offer clients a simple, accurate method of > ascertaining battery charge levels. SOC is not that method. I train > my clients to watch voltage levels and to understand these values are > elastic. If you can see trends in the battery voltage, so much the > better. This is why I like the Outback Optics interface. This is also > why a good AGS system examines battery voltage over time. > > I no longer install Outback FNDC units. Without them there is no SOC > reading. I don't install Sunny Island systems--they are SOC centered > and suffer for it. > > William > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 [3] > > www.millersolar.com [7] > > CA Lic. 773985 > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > Sent: Sunday, February 4, 2024 7:30 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Jason Szumlanski > Subject: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark > > Are there any off the shelf solutions to view battery SOC via a wired > meter mounted remotely on a property? I have a client with a simple > voltage based meter for lead acid batteries that they are accustomed to > using as a quick and approximate gauge of SOC. They want something > similar for their new Sol-Ark with EG4 LL batteries. > > They will have smartphone app visibility, but they want something they > can see inside the house without picking up a phone or going out to the > inverter. Ideally the SOC will come from the inverter or the battery > itself, not an external source (to avoid discrepancies). > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] tel:2098130060 [3] tel:805-438-5600 [4] http://www.millersolar.com [5] tel:2024-02-098 [6] tel:2024-02-0511 [7] http://www.millersolar.com/ [8] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: f90abef5.png Type: image/png Size: 117027 bytes Desc: not available URL: From daniel at greenwired.com Tue Feb 13 15:38:05 2024 From: daniel at greenwired.com (Daniel) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2024 13:38:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] No payment for Sunpower warranty service vendor credits? Message-ID: <18da430ebac.10f2f03c069366.2371455736254970845@greenwired.com> If you are doing warranty work for Sunpower for non leased systems, you may be like many other solar companies that are not getting vendor service payments for the work you are doing.  If this sounds familiar to an experience you have or are having please contact me.  I am trying to aggregate those that are having this experience and see if we can get a larger collective force together and see if we can move them for payments before they are extinct.  ThanksDanielDaniel Tittmann Greenwiredwww.greenwired.comdaniel at greenwired.com707-206-5088  -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com Tue Feb 13 17:23:50 2024 From: solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com (Solar Energy Solutions) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2024 16:23:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] No payment for Sunpower warranty service vendor credits? In-Reply-To: <18da430ebac.10f2f03c069366.2371455736254970845@greenwired.com> References: <18da430ebac.10f2f03c069366.2371455736254970845@greenwired.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Tue Feb 13 18:37:23 2024 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2024 17:37:23 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] No payment for Sunpower warranty service vendor credits? In-Reply-To: References: <18da430ebac.10f2f03c069366.2371455736254970845@greenwired.com> Message-ID: Advice, please; I was about to purchase a SunPower inverter. Have other people been having problems? I cannot reach their support line with my questions. As many of you know, I am a small contractor. I have noticed a reluctance of solar equipment suppliers, both Outback and Sol-Ark, who have recently stopped answering my questions. I have sent many email questions to their support line without a response. Two examples: can the Outback Radian do TOU? It can not! yet they assured me it could. I asked for the possibility of a workaround, and their response was, to read the manual. Can the Sol-Ark do TOU this under my utility rules? I think it could but I can not get them to confirm. They also will not respond to my questions, On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 4:25 PM Solar Energy Solutions via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Daniel, > > after three months of back-and-forth we have finally received a > replacement panel from SunPower and getting ready to affect repair. Are you > saying we are going to have a hard time getting compensated for our > services? > > > *Andrew Koyaanisqatsi* > *President* > *Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.* > *The BRIGHT CHOICE* > > *Since 1987,** helping you and your Portland neighbors move** towards an > environmentally sustainable future.* > > *503-238-4502www.SolarEnergyOregon.com * > > On Feb 13, 2024, at 2:38 PM, Daniel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > If you are doing warranty work for Sunpower for non leased systems, you > may be like many other solar companies that are not getting vendor service > payments for the work you are doing. > If this sounds familiar to an experience you have or are having please > contact me. I am trying to aggregate those that are having this experience > and see if we can get a larger collective force together and see if we can > move them for payments before they are extinct. > Thanks > Daniel > > Daniel Tittmann > Greenwired > www.greenwired.com > daniel at greenwired.com > 707-206-5088 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Tue Feb 13 18:40:19 2024 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2024 15:40:19 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] No payment for Sunpower warranty service vendor credits? In-Reply-To: References: <18da430ebac.10f2f03c069366.2371455736254970845@greenwired.com> Message-ID: Yes SolArk can be programmed to sell the battery energy in specific time windows David Quattro CA License # 954020. C-10, C-46 ph (415) 312-2661 www.quattrosolar.com On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 3:37 PM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Advice, please; I was about to purchase a SunPower inverter. Have other > people been having problems? > I cannot reach their support line with my questions. As many of you know, > I am a small contractor. I have noticed a reluctance of solar equipment > suppliers, both Outback and Sol-Ark, who have recently stopped answering my > questions. I have sent many email questions to their support line without a > response. Two examples: can the Outback Radian do TOU? It can not! yet > they assured me it could. I asked for the possibility of a workaround, and > their response was, to read the manual. > Can the Sol-Ark do TOU this under my utility rules? I think it could but > I can not get them to confirm. They also will not respond to my questions, > > On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 4:25 PM Solar Energy Solutions via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi Daniel, >> >> after three months of back-and-forth we have finally received a >> replacement panel from SunPower and getting ready to affect repair. Are you >> saying we are going to have a hard time getting compensated for our >> services? >> >> >> *Andrew Koyaanisqatsi* >> *President* >> *Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.* >> *The BRIGHT CHOICE* >> >> *Since 1987,** helping you and your Portland neighbors move** towards an >> environmentally sustainable future.* >> >> *503-238-4502www.SolarEnergyOregon.com >> * >> >> On Feb 13, 2024, at 2:38 PM, Daniel via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> If you are doing warranty work for Sunpower for non leased systems, you >> may be like many other solar companies that are not getting vendor service >> payments for the work you are doing. >> If this sounds familiar to an experience you have or are having please >> contact me. I am trying to aggregate those that are having this experience >> and see if we can get a larger collective force together and see if we can >> move them for payments before they are extinct. >> Thanks >> Daniel >> >> Daniel Tittmann >> Greenwired >> www.greenwired.com >> daniel at greenwired.com >> 707-206-5088 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Tue Feb 13 19:34:16 2024 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2024 19:34:16 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] No payment for Sunpower warranty service vendor credits? In-Reply-To: References: <18da430ebac.10f2f03c069366.2371455736254970845@greenwired.com> Message-ID: <002801da5edd$8ab2fbe0$a018f3a0$@mindspring.com> Darryl Sol-ark should always get back to you, as they do me. They have made a constant effort to grow and train their support staff but are usually slammed. Sol-Ark 12’s and 15” will do TOU. Call them, if you cannot get in the que leave a message, they will get back to you. Just have to be patient sometimes. Thx Peter Giroux American Solar Norcross Ga From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2024 6:37 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Darryl Thayer Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] No payment for Sunpower warranty service vendor credits? Advice, please; I was about to purchase a SunPower inverter. Have other people been having problems? I cannot reach their support line with my questions. As many of you know, I am a small contractor. I have noticed a reluctance of solar equipment suppliers, both Outback and Sol-Ark, who have recently stopped answering my questions. I have sent many email questions to their support line without a response. Two examples: can the Outback Radian do TOU? It can not! yet they assured me it could. I asked for the possibility of a workaround, and their response was, to read the manual. Can the Sol-Ark do TOU this under my utility rules? I think it could but I can not get them to confirm. They also will not respond to my questions, On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 4:25 PM Solar Energy Solutions via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi Daniel, after three months of back-and-forth we have finally received a replacement panel from SunPower and getting ready to affect repair. Are you saying we are going to have a hard time getting compensated for our services? Andrew Koyaanisqatsi President Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. The BRIGHT CHOICE Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally sustainable future. 503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com On Feb 13, 2024, at 2:38 PM, Daniel via RE-wrenches > wrote:  If you are doing warranty work for Sunpower for non leased systems, you may be like many other solar companies that are not getting vendor service payments for the work you are doing. If this sounds familiar to an experience you have or are having please contact me. I am trying to aggregate those that are having this experience and see if we can get a larger collective force together and see if we can move them for payments before they are extinct. Thanks Daniel Daniel Tittmann Greenwired www.greenwired.com daniel at greenwired.com 707-206-5088 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tom.mccalmont at pairedpower.com Tue Feb 13 19:43:29 2024 From: tom.mccalmont at pairedpower.com (Tom McCalmont) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2024 16:43:29 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] No payment for Sunpower warranty service vendor credits? In-Reply-To: <002801da5edd$8ab2fbe0$a018f3a0$@mindspring.com> References: <18da430ebac.10f2f03c069366.2371455736254970845@greenwired.com> <002801da5edd$8ab2fbe0$a018f3a0$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <1D790721-8D31-4344-A2F0-B7B71F5533EC@pairedpower.com> I agree with Peter. We have used Sol-Ark inverters, and they work well and they provide good support (although you may have to wait for a response). Sunpower is on the verge of bankruptcy: https://www.investopedia.com/sunpower-shares-plunge-as-it-warns-that-debt-could-threaten-business-8417611 SunPower Stock Plunges as It Warns That Debt Could Threaten Business investopedia.com Tom McCalmont Paired Power > On Feb 13, 2024, at 4:34 PM, Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Darryl > > Sol-ark should always get back to you, as they do me. They have made a constant effort to grow and train their support staff but are usually slammed. Sol-Ark 12’s and 15” will do TOU. Call them, if you cannot get in the que leave a message, they will get back to you. Just have to be patient sometimes. > > Thx > Peter Giroux > American Solar > Norcross Ga > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches > Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2024 6:37 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Darryl Thayer > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] No payment for Sunpower warranty service vendor credits? > > Advice, please; I was about to purchase a SunPower inverter. Have other people been having problems? > I cannot reach their support line with my questions. As many of you know, I am a small contractor. I have noticed a reluctance of solar equipment suppliers, both Outback and Sol-Ark, who have recently stopped answering my questions. I have sent many email questions to their support line without a response. Two examples: can the Outback Radian do TOU? It can not! yet they assured me it could. I asked for the possibility of a workaround, and their response was, to read the manual. > Can the Sol-Ark do TOU this under my utility rules? I think it could but I can not get them to confirm. They also will not respond to my questions, > > On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 4:25 PM Solar Energy Solutions via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Hi Daniel, >> >> after three months of back-and-forth we have finally received a replacement panel from SunPower and getting ready to affect repair. Are you saying we are going to have a hard time getting compensated for our services? >> >> >> Andrew Koyaanisqatsi >> President >> Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. >> The BRIGHT CHOICE >> >> Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally sustainable future. >> 503-238-4502 >> www.SolarEnergyOregon.com >> >> >>> On Feb 13, 2024, at 2:38 PM, Daniel via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> >>>  >>> If you are doing warranty work for Sunpower for non leased systems, you may be like many other solar companies that are not getting vendor service payments for the work you are doing. >>> If this sounds familiar to an experience you have or are having please contact me. I am trying to aggregate those that are having this experience and see if we can get a larger collective force together and see if we can move them for payments before they are extinct. >>> Thanks >>> Daniel >>> >>> Daniel Tittmann >>> Greenwired >>> www.greenwired.com >>> daniel at greenwired.com >>> 707-206-5088 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: engineers-installing-solar-panel-on-rooftop-152830526-5730abdd3df78c038e421963.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 152598 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sky at ecologicalsystems.biz Tue Feb 13 20:08:19 2024 From: sky at ecologicalsystems.biz (Sky Sims) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2024 20:08:19 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] No payment for Sunpower warranty service vendor credits? In-Reply-To: <1D790721-8D31-4344-A2F0-B7B71F5533EC@pairedpower.com> References: <1D790721-8D31-4344-A2F0-B7B71F5533EC@pairedpower.com> Message-ID: <1E54665D-E878-49CC-8339-34B83D510F0C@ecologicalsystems.biz> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Tue Feb 13 22:51:49 2024 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2024 21:51:49 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] No payment for Sunpower warranty service vendor credits? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2FF19839-7DDD-4941-A4C3-C80A44273FFF@mavericksolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: maxresdefault.jpg Type: image/png Size: 58963 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: preview.png Type: image/png Size: 199447 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: maxresdefault.jpg Type: image/png Size: 92222 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Feb 14 08:03:09 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2024 08:03:09 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] No payment for Sunpower warranty service vendor credits? In-Reply-To: References: <18da430ebac.10f2f03c069366.2371455736254970845@greenwired.com> Message-ID: I have only serviced SunPower systems a handful of times over the years, and it has always been a nightmare. Right now, I am dealing with a failed AC module that is clearly dead, but they want me to go back there and do "on-site diagnostics" while I talk to an "expert" in a call center somewhere. There are no diagnostics to do! With good DC input and no response from the panel, what else is there? The runaround is mindblowing. I have no expectation of getting paid by SunPower for this work (assuming it is under warranty), so it's on the poor homeowner to foot the bill. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 6:37 PM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Advice, please; I was about to purchase a SunPower inverter. Have other > people been having problems? > I cannot reach their support line with my questions. As many of you know, > I am a small contractor. I have noticed a reluctance of solar equipment > suppliers, both Outback and Sol-Ark, who have recently stopped answering my > questions. I have sent many email questions to their support line without a > response. Two examples: can the Outback Radian do TOU? It can not! yet > they assured me it could. I asked for the possibility of a workaround, and > their response was, to read the manual. > Can the Sol-Ark do TOU this under my utility rules? I think it could but > I can not get them to confirm. They also will not respond to my questions, > > On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 4:25 PM Solar Energy Solutions via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi Daniel, >> >> after three months of back-and-forth we have finally received a >> replacement panel from SunPower and getting ready to affect repair. Are you >> saying we are going to have a hard time getting compensated for our >> services? >> >> >> *Andrew Koyaanisqatsi* >> *President* >> *Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.* >> *The BRIGHT CHOICE* >> >> *Since 1987,** helping you and your Portland neighbors move** towards an >> environmentally sustainable future.* >> >> *503-238-4502www.SolarEnergyOregon.com >> * >> >> On Feb 13, 2024, at 2:38 PM, Daniel via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> If you are doing warranty work for Sunpower for non leased systems, you >> may be like many other solar companies that are not getting vendor service >> payments for the work you are doing. >> If this sounds familiar to an experience you have or are having please >> contact me. I am trying to aggregate those that are having this experience >> and see if we can get a larger collective force together and see if we can >> move them for payments before they are extinct. >> Thanks >> Daniel >> >> Daniel Tittmann >> Greenwired >> www.greenwired.com >> daniel at greenwired.com >> 707-206-5088 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Wed Feb 14 09:46:57 2024 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2024 09:46:57 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Message-ID: <001301da5f54$a8ed3360$fac79a20$@mindspring.com> Good morning my fellow wrenchers. While I see the comments on SunPower and the challenges, are any of you having similar issues with Fortress? Their bms boards from the early classics have not held up and even after replacement there are still issues ( parallel batteries and stand alone not showing accurate #'s, ). While support has been, well supportive, the issues persist. Any thoughts or fixes you have come up with?? I just had a customer unplug the coms cable from their sol-ark and bring their readings to volts VS %% and it is starting to work a bit better. Any and all help or ideas appreciated. Thx peter Giroux American Solar Norcross Ga -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at vecoop.ca Wed Feb 14 11:38:39 2024 From: eric at vecoop.ca (Eric Smiley) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2024 08:38:39 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress In-Reply-To: <001301da5f54$a8ed3360$fac79a20$@mindspring.com> References: <001301da5f54$a8ed3360$fac79a20$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: The BMS in the eVault Classic has been a headache. Fortunately, we were able to convince Fortress to let us proactively replace the BMS in some of our systems - especially the remote off-grid systems. We are still having problems with weird SOC readings on many of the batteries. Apparently the SOC reading can get stuck at 100% and Fortress is aware of the bug. It is frustrating because the owners rely on the SOC reading rather than voltage. This experience did convince me that Li-Ion in off-grid applications is not a reliable solution unless there are multiple independent batteries with their own BMS. The battery itself may be robust (how long have these actually been in the field in real-world applications) but the BMS is a complicated piece of electronics on which the entire system is dependent. Li-Ion violates the KISS principle. So we talk our off-grid clients out of using Li-Ion. IMHO relying on firmware and circuit boards to keep your system running and protect it from catastrophic failure is not sustainable. *Eric Smiley,* Design Manager eric at vecoop.ca T: 250.703.6004 <+12507036004> T: 888.386.0116 <+18883860116> *VIRIDIANENERGY.CA * * * On Wed, 14 Feb 2024 at 06:47, Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Good morning my fellow wrenchers. While I see the comments on SunPower and > the challenges, are any of you having similar issues with Fortress? Their > bms boards from the early classics have not held up and even after > replacement there are still issues ( parallel batteries and stand alone not > showing accurate #’s, ). While support has been, well supportive, the > issues persist. Any thoughts or fixes you have come up with?? I just had a > customer unplug the coms cable from their sol-ark and bring their readings > to volts VS %% and it is starting to work a bit better. Any and all help or > ideas appreciated. > > > > Thx > peter Giroux > > American Solar > > Norcross Ga > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Feb 14 12:05:41 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2024 09:05:41 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress In-Reply-To: <001301da5f54$a8ed3360$fac79a20$@mindspring.com> References: <001301da5f54$a8ed3360$fac79a20$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <071480e71389004b63a8579c06ca6a26@sti.net> Hi Peter, I was called in to consult on a new existing 4x Fortress E flex / Schneider XWP system that worked fine open loop but never communicated with the Schneider gateway. Fortress to their credit sent a tech out and he did Fortress FW and a PC exchange. Still not working. The owner was upset and replaced with Discover AES 42-48-6650. There was zero configuration to do which surprised the installer. Worked fine closed loop from the start. I do not like to be negative about companies in North America and I still think Fortress could have fixed this with more time. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-02-14 6:46 am, Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches wrote: > Good morning my fellow wrenchers. While I see the comments on SunPower > and the challenges, are any of you having similar issues with Fortress? > Their bms boards from the early classics have not held up and even > after replacement there are still issues ( parallel batteries and stand > alone not showing accurate #'s, ). While support has been, well > supportive, the issues persist. Any thoughts or fixes you have come up > with?? I just had a customer unplug the coms cable from their sol-ark > and bring their readings to volts VS %% and it is starting to work a > bit better. Any and all help or ideas appreciated. > > Thx > peter Giroux > > American Solar > > Norcross Ga > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at vecoop.ca Wed Feb 14 13:31:30 2024 From: eric at vecoop.ca (Eric Smiley) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2024 10:31:30 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Huawei inverter tech support Message-ID: We have a client with a Huawei 9KTL-USL0 who recently contacted us about his system. Does anyone know how to obtain tech support in NA for these products? *Eric Smiley,* Design Manager eric at vecoop.ca T: 250.703.6004 <+12507036004> T: 888.386.0116 <+18883860116> *VIRIDIANENERGY.CA * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Feb 14 16:57:39 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2024 13:57:39 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress In-Reply-To: <001301da5f54$a8ed3360$fac79a20$@mindspring.com> References: <001301da5f54$a8ed3360$fac79a20$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <503da8c608cf0ea759ee4f3828e94505@mail.gmail.com> Peter: I have only purchased one set of Fortress batteries. There have been issues, I am sure many of them self-induced. Fortress has been overall very responsive. There have been a few days where I could not get through to technical support but with persistence I always manage. Fortress has offered truck–roll compensation at a reasonable rate as well. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Wednesday, February 14, 2024 6:47 AM *To:* 'RE-wrenches' *Cc:* pgiroux at mindspring.com *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Fortress Good morning my fellow wrenchers. While I see the comments on SunPower and the challenges, are any of you having similar issues with Fortress? Their bms boards from the early classics have not held up and even after replacement there are still issues ( parallel batteries and stand alone not showing accurate #’s, ). While support has been, well supportive, the issues persist. Any thoughts or fixes you have come up with?? I just had a customer unplug the coms cable from their sol-ark and bring their readings to volts VS %% and it is starting to work a bit better. Any and all help or ideas appreciated. Thx peter Giroux American Solar Norcross Ga -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Feb 15 08:49:50 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2024 06:49:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress In-Reply-To: <503da8c608cf0ea759ee4f3828e94505@mail.gmail.com> References: <503da8c608cf0ea759ee4f3828e94505@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5ACDB41E-25BA-4555-B884-ACF4C0654E80@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu Feb 15 10:02:56 2024 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2024 10:02:56 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress In-Reply-To: <5ACDB41E-25BA-4555-B884-ACF4C0654E80@gmail.com> References: <503da8c608cf0ea759ee4f3828e94505@mail.gmail.com> <5ACDB41E-25BA-4555-B884-ACF4C0654E80@gmail.com> Message-ID: I also have been having some issues with reported SOC through the Guardian with Fortress. Fortress is generally responsive, although no one has specifically addressed my concern yet. What I have seen with two recent eFlex installations (replacing an existing battery bank on an off-grid system) is that the reported SOC in the Guardian app for some batteries is way lower than it should be. For example, one system is at 92%, 92%, 92%, 62%. Yet the lights on the batteries all indicate that they are in the 75-100% range. The other system is reporting 23%, 63%, 62%, 25%, 48%, and again, all the LED's on the batteries are in sync. This has led one customer to keep disconnecting the batteries and trying to charge just one of them up and then fiddling with it until they are all back within a good voltage range, when I am nearly certain that they are all the same voltage even though they are reporting different SOC on the Guardian app only. I am looking forward to when they have the website up and I can look at historical data to see whether this battery is actually doing more work. I suspect it is not, but then maybe I can get Fortress to look more closely at it. And for all these batteries, the cables are exactly the same length and going to a bus bar. Has anyone else noticed this discrepancy between the guardian app and (what I think is) reality with the SOC? Cheers, Dave On Thu, Feb 15, 2024 at 8:52 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi william > > Could you share the equipment used and what issues you had? > > Thx > Jay > > On Feb 14, 2024, at 3:13 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Peter: > > > > I have only purchased one set of Fortress batteries. There have been > issues, I am sure many of them self-induced. Fortress has been overall > very responsive. There have been a few days where I could not get through > to technical support but with persistence I always manage. Fortress has > offered truck–roll compensation at a reasonable rate as well. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 14, 2024 6:47 AM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Cc:* pgiroux at mindspring.com > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Fortress > > > > Good morning my fellow wrenchers. While I see the comments on SunPower and > the challenges, are any of you having similar issues with Fortress? Their > bms boards from the early classics have not held up and even after > replacement there are still issues ( parallel batteries and stand alone not > showing accurate #’s, ). While support has been, well supportive, the > issues persist. Any thoughts or fixes you have come up with?? I just had a > customer unplug the coms cable from their sol-ark and bring their readings > to volts VS %% and it is starting to work a bit better. Any and all help or > ideas appreciated. > > > > Thx > peter Giroux > > American Solar > > Norcross Ga > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Thu Feb 15 10:53:02 2024 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2024 10:53:02 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress In-Reply-To: References: <503da8c608cf0ea759ee4f3828e94505@mail.gmail.com> <5ACDB41E-25BA-4555-B884-ACF4C0654E80@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dave, All, Their website is up. And historical data is available amongst lots of things not viewable on the phone app or the inverter front panel. Here's a screenshot in the data tab - www.envy.fortresspower.io : [image: image.png] I too have several head scratchers with the Fortress system. It primarily is a result of the lack of continuity between Envy manual/display, phone app, and this PC dashboard. All three have slightly different labelling and functional descriptions of individual parameter settings and how they interact. Definitely not intuitive for some of the most important settings. Much less the lack of descriptive commonality between platforms. I have one system crash where the batteries were supposedly at 32% SOC, but the evault was @ 0%. And indeed it was at zero, taking several hours with an external charger to revive it. Gotten no answer yet from support as to why this might have happened. The new www.envy.fortresspower.io dashboard data let me discover there was no calibration voltage of 54.4v reached in the prior six weeks. Who knows if that's why. On Thu, Feb 15, 2024 at 10:05 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I also have been having some issues with reported SOC through the Guardian > with Fortress. Fortress is generally responsive, although no one has > specifically addressed my concern yet. What I have seen with two recent > eFlex installations (replacing an existing battery bank on an off-grid > system) is that the reported SOC in the Guardian app for some batteries is > way lower than it should be. For example, one system is at 92%, 92%, 92%, > 62%. Yet the lights on the batteries all indicate that they are in the > 75-100% range. The other system is reporting 23%, 63%, 62%, 25%, 48%, and > again, all the LED's on the batteries are in sync. This has led one > customer to keep disconnecting the batteries and trying to charge just one > of them up and then fiddling with it until they are all back within a good > voltage range, when I am nearly certain that they are all the same voltage > even though they are reporting different SOC on the Guardian app only. > > I am looking forward to when they have the website up and I can look at > historical data to see whether this battery is actually doing more work. I > suspect it is not, but then maybe I can get Fortress to look more closely > at it. And for all these batteries, the cables are exactly the same length > and going to a bus bar. > > Has anyone else noticed this discrepancy between the guardian app and > (what I think is) reality with the SOC? > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Thu, Feb 15, 2024 at 8:52 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi william >> >> Could you share the equipment used and what issues you had? >> >> Thx >> Jay >> >> On Feb 14, 2024, at 3:13 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> >> Peter: >> >> >> >> I have only purchased one set of Fortress batteries. There have been >> issues, I am sure many of them self-induced. Fortress has been overall >> very responsive. There have been a few days where I could not get through >> to technical support but with persistence I always manage. Fortress has >> offered truck–roll compensation at a reasonable rate as well. >> >> >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 14, 2024 6:47 AM >> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' >> *Cc:* pgiroux at mindspring.com >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Fortress >> >> >> >> Good morning my fellow wrenchers. While I see the comments on SunPower >> and the challenges, are any of you having similar issues with Fortress? >> Their bms boards from the early classics have not held up and even after >> replacement there are still issues ( parallel batteries and stand alone not >> showing accurate #’s, ). While support has been, well supportive, the >> issues persist. Any thoughts or fixes you have come up with?? I just had a >> customer unplug the coms cable from their sol-ark and bring their readings >> to volts VS %% and it is starting to work a bit better. Any and all help or >> ideas appreciated. >> >> >> >> Thx >> peter Giroux >> >> American Solar >> >> Norcross Ga >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 270-0370 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 116167 bytes Desc: not available URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Thu Feb 15 11:57:57 2024 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2024 10:57:57 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress In-Reply-To: <5ACDB41E-25BA-4555-B884-ACF4C0654E80@gmail.com> References: <503da8c608cf0ea759ee4f3828e94505@mail.gmail.com> <5ACDB41E-25BA-4555-B884-ACF4C0654E80@gmail.com> Message-ID: Is it similar to my problem with my Simplify batteries? Over time, the BMS did not allow all cells to charge the same. To correct this, I had to charge each battery separately, and after this, they stayed equivalent for more years. On Thu, Feb 15, 2024 at 7:50 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi william > > Could you share the equipment used and what issues you had? > > Thx > Jay > > On Feb 14, 2024, at 3:13 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Peter: > > > > I have only purchased one set of Fortress batteries. There have been > issues, I am sure many of them self-induced. Fortress has been overall > very responsive. There have been a few days where I could not get through > to technical support but with persistence I always manage. Fortress has > offered truck–roll compensation at a reasonable rate as well. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 14, 2024 6:47 AM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Cc:* pgiroux at mindspring.com > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Fortress > > > > Good morning my fellow wrenchers. While I see the comments on SunPower and > the challenges, are any of you having similar issues with Fortress? Their > bms boards from the early classics have not held up and even after > replacement there are still issues ( parallel batteries and stand alone not > showing accurate #’s, ). While support has been, well supportive, the > issues persist. Any thoughts or fixes you have come up with?? I just had a > customer unplug the coms cable from their sol-ark and bring their readings > to volts VS %% and it is starting to work a bit better. Any and all help or > ideas appreciated. > > > > Thx > peter Giroux > > American Solar > > Norcross Ga > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Feb 15 12:28:46 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2024 09:28:46 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress In-Reply-To: References: <503da8c608cf0ea759ee4f3828e94505@mail.gmail.com> <5ACDB41E-25BA-4555-B884-ACF4C0654E80@gmail.com> Message-ID: So this is all open loop with outback correct? I can't even get into Simplyphi. website today. Maybe the windows update... The battery below was suppose to be networkable but it looks like not much progress. * Model: AmpliPHI 3.8kWh * Inverter compatibility: Sol-Ark, SMA (coming soon), Schneider Electric (coming soon) A question, it looks like Outback is not closed loop with any battery company. I hope I am wrong! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [2]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [3] [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-02-15 8:57 am, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches wrote: > Is it similar to my problem with my Simplify batteries? Over time, the > BMS did not allow all cells to charge the same. To correct this, I had > to charge each battery separately, and after this, they stayed > equivalent for more years. > > On Thu, Feb 15, 2024 at 7:50 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi william > > Could you share the equipment used and what issues you had? > > Thx > Jay > > On Feb 14, 2024, at 3:13 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Peter: > > I have only purchased one set of Fortress batteries. There have been > issues, I am sure many of them self-induced. Fortress has been overall > very responsive. There have been a few days where I could not get > through to technical support but with persistence I always manage. > Fortress has offered truck-roll compensation at a reasonable rate as > well. > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com [1] > > CA Lic. 773985 > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches > Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2024 6:47 AM > To: 'RE-wrenches' > Cc: pgiroux at mindspring.com > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress > > Good morning my fellow wrenchers. While I see the comments on SunPower > and the challenges, are any of you having similar issues with Fortress? > Their bms boards from the early classics have not held up and even > after replacement there are still issues ( parallel batteries and stand > alone not showing accurate #'s, ). While support has been, well > supportive, the issues persist. Any thoughts or fixes you have come up > with?? I just had a customer unplug the coms cable from their sol-ark > and bring their readings to volts VS %% and it is starting to work a > bit better. Any and all help or ideas appreciated. > > Thx > peter Giroux > > American Solar > > Norcross Ga _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.millersolar.com/ [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu Feb 15 13:10:36 2024 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2024 13:10:36 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress In-Reply-To: References: <503da8c608cf0ea759ee4f3828e94505@mail.gmail.com> <5ACDB41E-25BA-4555-B884-ACF4C0654E80@gmail.com> Message-ID: Kirk, That site looks specifically for the Envy inverters. Do you know if the Guardian site is working? My credentials will not get me in at this time. www.app.fortresspower.io My sites have no comms between the batteries and the inverter, since it is an Outback system. And yes, there is certainly an issue with SOC drift over time without getting a full charge. I was told by Fortress tech support that the eFlex batteries needed to get over 55V to calibrate the SOC. Yet, in their settings, the generator is only supposed to bring them to 54.4V. The solar will bring it higher. But this was a problem here in upstate NY, where we did not have a sunny enough day in the entire month of January. Cheers, Dave On Thu, Feb 15, 2024 at 12:30 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > So this is all open loop with outback correct? I can't even get into > Simplyphi. website today. Maybe the windows update... > > The battery below was suppose to be networkable but it looks like not much > progress. > > - Model: AmpliPHI 3.8kWh > - Inverter compatibility: Sol-Ark, SMA (coming soon), Schneider > Electric (coming soon) > > A question, it looks like Outback is not closed loop with any battery > company. I hope I am wrong! > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2024-02-15 8:57 am, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Is it similar to my problem with my Simplify batteries? Over time, the BMS > did not allow all cells to charge the same. To correct this, I had to > charge each battery separately, and after this, they stayed equivalent for > more years. > > On Thu, Feb 15, 2024 at 7:50 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > Hi william > > Could you share the equipment used and what issues you had? > > Thx > Jay > > On Feb 14, 2024, at 3:13 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Peter: > > > > I have only purchased one set of Fortress batteries. There have been > issues, I am sure many of them self-induced. Fortress has been overall > very responsive. There have been a few days where I could not get through > to technical support but with persistence I always manage. Fortress has > offered truck–roll compensation at a reasonable rate as well. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 14, 2024 6:47 AM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Cc:* pgiroux at mindspring.com > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Fortress > > > > Good morning my fellow wrenchers. While I see the comments on SunPower and > the challenges, are any of you having similar issues with Fortress? Their > bms boards from the early classics have not held up and even after > replacement there are still issues ( parallel batteries and stand alone not > showing accurate #'s, ). While support has been, well supportive, the > issues persist. Any thoughts or fixes you have come up with?? I just had a > customer unplug the coms cable from their sol-ark and bring their readings > to volts VS %% and it is starting to work a bit better. Any and all help or > ideas appreciated. > > > > Thx > peter Giroux > > American Solar > > Norcross Ga > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Thu Feb 15 13:40:53 2024 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2024 13:40:53 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress In-Reply-To: References: <503da8c608cf0ea759ee4f3828e94505@mail.gmail.com> <5ACDB41E-25BA-4555-B884-ACF4C0654E80@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, the site I mentioned is only for the fortress envy inverter. I’ve had the same weather as you, being in northern Vermont, that is where that system crashed that I mentioned in the previous email, definitely did not reach a full state of charge in January. The national weather service reported it was the cloudiest January since 1951. *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 On Thu, Feb 15, 2024 at 1:11 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Kirk, > > That site looks specifically for the Envy inverters. Do you know if the > Guardian site is working? My credentials will not get me in at this time. > www.app.fortresspower.io > > My sites have no comms between the batteries and the inverter, since it is > an Outback system. > > And yes, there is certainly an issue with SOC drift over time without > getting a full charge. I was told by Fortress tech support that the eFlex > batteries needed to get over 55V to calibrate the SOC. Yet, in their > settings, the generator is only supposed to bring them to 54.4V. The solar > will bring it higher. But this was a problem here in upstate NY, where we > did not have a sunny enough day in the entire month of January. > > Cheers, > Dave > > > On Thu, Feb 15, 2024 at 12:30 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via > RE-wrenches wrote: > >> So this is all open loop with outback correct? I can't even get into >> Simplyphi. website today. Maybe the windows update... >> >> The battery below was suppose to be networkable but it looks like not >> much progress. >> >> - Model: AmpliPHI 3.8kWh >> - Inverter compatibility: Sol-Ark, SMA (coming soon), Schneider >> Electric (coming soon) >> >> A question, it looks like Outback is not closed loop with any battery >> company. I hope I am wrong! >> >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> >> On 2024-02-15 8:57 am, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Is it similar to my problem with my Simplify batteries? Over time, the >> BMS did not allow all cells to charge the same. To correct this, I had to >> charge each battery separately, and after this, they stayed equivalent for >> more years. >> >> On Thu, Feb 15, 2024 at 7:50 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> >> Hi william >> >> Could you share the equipment used and what issues you had? >> >> Thx >> Jay >> >> On Feb 14, 2024, at 3:13 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Peter: >> >> >> >> I have only purchased one set of Fortress batteries. There have been >> issues, I am sure many of them self-induced. Fortress has been overall >> very responsive. There have been a few days where I could not get through >> to technical support but with persistence I always manage. Fortress has >> offered truck–roll compensation at a reasonable rate as well. >> >> >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 14, 2024 6:47 AM >> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' >> *Cc:* pgiroux at mindspring.com >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Fortress >> >> >> >> Good morning my fellow wrenchers. While I see the comments on SunPower >> and the challenges, are any of you having similar issues with Fortress? >> Their bms boards from the early classics have not held up and even after >> replacement there are still issues ( parallel batteries and stand alone not >> showing accurate #'s, ). While support has been, well supportive, the >> issues persist. Any thoughts or fixes you have come up with?? I just had a >> customer unplug the coms cable from their sol-ark and bring their readings >> to volts VS %% and it is starting to work a bit better. Any and all help or >> ideas appreciated. >> >> >> >> Thx >> peter Giroux >> >> American Solar >> >> Norcross Ga >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. > > > | Ithaca, > NY 14850 > > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 270-0370 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Feb 15 15:15:58 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2024 12:15:58 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress In-Reply-To: <5ACDB41E-25BA-4555-B884-ACF4C0654E80@gmail.com> References: <503da8c608cf0ea759ee4f3828e94505@mail.gmail.com> <5ACDB41E-25BA-4555-B884-ACF4C0654E80@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay: Here is a link to the study. The web page needs to be updated with this information: There are two settings to be changed in the Sunny Boy Inverters: Backup mode and Default. See Below: I had set the default to OFF_Grid but I had not set the Backup Mode to On All. It was in Off. There is a possibility changing the Backup Mode setting may fix the Frequency Shift Power Control problem that is the root of this dilemma. There have not been enough sunny days to see the PV bring SOC up to the level of near 100% where the problem exhibits. As soon as the weather gets sunnier and the days get longer I will see what happens and report back. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* Jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com] *Sent:* Thursday, February 15, 2024 5:50 AM *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Hi william Could you share the equipment used and what issues you had? Thx Jay On Feb 14, 2024, at 3:13 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:  Peter: I have only purchased one set of Fortress batteries. There have been issues, I am sure many of them self-induced. Fortress has been overall very responsive. There have been a few days where I could not get through to technical support but with persistence I always manage. Fortress has offered truck–roll compensation at a reasonable rate as well. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Wednesday, February 14, 2024 6:47 AM *To:* 'RE-wrenches' *Cc:* pgiroux at mindspring.com *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Fortress Good morning my fellow wrenchers. While I see the comments on SunPower and the challenges, are any of you having similar issues with Fortress? Their bms boards from the early classics have not held up and even after replacement there are still issues ( parallel batteries and stand alone not showing accurate #’s, ). While support has been, well supportive, the issues persist. Any thoughts or fixes you have come up with?? I just had a customer unplug the coms cable from their sol-ark and bring their readings to volts VS %% and it is starting to work a bit better. Any and all help or ideas appreciated. Thx peter Giroux American Solar Norcross Ga _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 15256 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 15:56:27 2024 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2024 15:56:27 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment Message-ID: Hi All, I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG4 inverters and batteries. The comments have been mostly positive. I have stayed away from EG4 until now in part, for the reason the Michael Morningstar suggested last June - that is, they seemed very oriented to the DIY market and not real serious contenders in the lasting marketplace. However, I was at RE+ Boston this week and was quite surprised to see that the EG4 18k inverter is, for all I could tell, identical to the Fortress Envy 12k, in both physical layout as well as menu structure. I have very limited experience with the Envy (having just installed my 1st one last week, in order to compare it to the Sol-Ark 15). I don't have any thoughts about it yet, except that the font on the screen is quite small and the opening screen is not as intuitive as the Sol-Ark, but that might just take familiarizing myself more to the Envy (and/or the EG4). My question is, for folks who have had either the Envy or the EG4 inverters installed for a decent period of time, what is your current take on their functionality, durability, and for the EG4, the quality of support? Also, what experience have folks had similarly with the EG4 LLI batteries? I'm not unhappy with the Sol-Ark or in general the Fortress eVault Max battery, but there are some attractive things about the Envy and potentially the EG4 18k, and the price point and seemingly smart configuration of the EG4 LLI batteries are certainly eye-catching. I'm also currently starting to lean toward using Lithium batteries and inverters from the same manufacturer, as I'm growing weary of the mismatching firmware updates that are causing somewhat frequent issues between the 2 components. Although the inverter/battery integrated units (i.e. Sonen, Tesla, etc.) don't seem ideal, since the market is so volatile at the moment. If one component fails, I'd like the option to replace it with a different brand without having to replace the other component as well. Using the same manu doesn't necessarily cut down the problems, but it certainly will help in the troubleshooting process by hopefully having less of the "not my problem" or "we haven't seen that problem" responses from tech support. I really don't like making forays into bleeding-edge technologies, so I'm hoping to gain some experienced insight. Thanks, Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 17:02:00 2024 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2024 14:02:00 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises from their dealer oriented support department that we could expect better service from them. We had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple months ago after only a few months. Lots and lots of communications with Signature and we still don’t have a BMS or replacement battery. It’s been a shit show with them. I think we are going to remove them and install 3rd party BMS’s and find some use for them. Maybe donate them. We’ve only had luck with Schneider/Discover pairings in closed loop. A large system we did with Sol-Arks never really worked in Closed loop, despite Discover coming to the site. Most likely it’s a Sol-Ark issue, but we’ve reached Sol-Arks technical expertise limits. Even with Schneider/AES, there have been some issues that are causing me to re-consider Li for offgrid. I just had a conversation this morning with a long time off-grid pro and he said the same thing. It used to be, we’d install a wet lead acid bank and then ten years would pass before hearing from the client when it was time for another bank. Sometimes fifteen years. Our call backs with systems over the last ten years, first with a decline in equipment quality and then the switch to Li are costing us too much money and causing a lot of heartburn for our clients. Rant Over On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 12:57 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi All, > > I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG4 inverters and > batteries. The comments have been mostly positive. I have stayed away from > EG4 until now in part, for the reason the Michael Morningstar suggested > last June - that is, they seemed very oriented to the DIY market and not > real serious contenders in the lasting marketplace. However, I was at RE+ > Boston this week and was quite surprised to see that the EG4 18k inverter > is, for all I could tell, identical to the Fortress Envy 12k, in both > physical layout as well as menu structure. I have very limited experience > with the Envy (having just installed my 1st one last week, in order to > compare it to the Sol-Ark 15). I don't have any thoughts about it yet, > except that the font on the screen is quite small and the opening screen is > not as intuitive as the Sol-Ark, but that might just take familiarizing > myself more to the Envy (and/or the EG4). > > My question is, for folks who have had either the Envy or the EG4 > inverters installed for a decent period of time, what is your current take > on their functionality, durability, and for the EG4, the quality of > support? Also, what experience have folks had similarly with the EG4 LLI > batteries? I'm not unhappy with the Sol-Ark or in general the Fortress > eVault Max battery, but there are some attractive things about the Envy and > potentially the EG4 18k, and the price point and seemingly smart > configuration of the EG4 LLI batteries are certainly eye-catching. > > I'm also currently starting to lean toward using Lithium batteries and > inverters from the same manufacturer, as I'm growing weary of the > mismatching firmware updates that are causing somewhat frequent issues > between the 2 components. Although the inverter/battery integrated units > (i.e. Sonen, Tesla, etc.) don't seem ideal, since the market is so volatile > at the moment. If one component fails, I'd like the option to replace it > with a different brand without having to replace the other component as > well. Using the same manu doesn't necessarily cut down the problems, but it > certainly will help in the troubleshooting process by hopefully having less > of the "not my problem" or "we haven't seen that problem" responses from > tech support. > > I really don't like making forays into bleeding-edge technologies, so I'm > hoping to gain some experienced insight. > > Thanks, > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Feb 16 18:11:11 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2024 15:11:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <729bc8b4c667a16ea2e22664271209a6@sti.net> Howie, I think you should also look again at the Discover rack mount system in the link below. Nice 75 year old company that made it's name on Locomotive batteries. Their prices are way down around 14 K for 30Kwh with heaters. If you have not looked at Lynk2 their gateway closed loop into SMA, Schneider, Solark, Morningstar and a few others you should. The only problems I have with Schneider are pretty easy and get resolved because I only use them and take all of the training. Conext Insight is a home run for my clients. Schneider also hired me to test their first closed loop system with LG back in 2017 and it still is working fine. https://discoverlithium.com/products/lithium-batteries/aes-rackmount Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-02-16 2:02 pm, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises from their > dealer oriented support department that we could expect better service > from them. We had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple months ago after only a > few months. Lots and lots of communications with Signature and we still > don't have a BMS or replacement battery. It's been a shit show with > them. I think we are going to remove them and install 3rd party BMS's > and find some use for them. Maybe donate them. We've only had luck with > Schneider/Discover pairings in closed loop. A large system we did with > Sol-Arks never really worked in Closed loop, despite Discover coming to > the site. Most likely it's a Sol-Ark issue, but we've reached Sol-Arks > technical expertise limits. Even with Schneider/AES, there have been > some issues that are causing me to re-consider Li for offgrid. I just > had a conversation this morning with a long time off-grid pro and he > said the same thing. It used to be, we'd install a wet lead acid bank > and then ten years would pass before hearing from the client when it > was time for another bank. Sometimes fifteen years. Our call backs with > systems over the last ten years, first with a decline in equipment > quality and then the switch to Li are costing us too much money and > causing a lot of heartburn for our clients. Rant Over > > On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 12:57 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches > wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG4 inverters and >> batteries. The comments have been mostly positive. I have stayed away >> from EG4 until now in part, for the reason the Michael Morningstar >> suggested last June - that is, they seemed very oriented to the DIY >> market and not real serious contenders in the lasting marketplace. >> However, I was at RE+ Boston this week and was quite surprised to see >> that the EG4 18k inverter is, for all I could tell, identical to the >> Fortress Envy 12k, in both physical layout as well as menu structure. >> I have very limited experience with the Envy (having just installed my >> 1st one last week, in order to compare it to the Sol-Ark 15). I don't >> have any thoughts about it yet, except that the font on the screen is >> quite small and the opening screen is not as intuitive as the Sol-Ark, >> but that might just take familiarizing myself more to the Envy (and/or >> the EG4). >> >> My question is, for folks who have had either the Envy or the EG4 >> inverters installed for a decent period of time, what is your current >> take on their functionality, durability, and for the EG4, the quality >> of support? Also, what experience have folks had similarly with the >> EG4 LLI batteries? I'm not unhappy with the Sol-Ark or in general the >> Fortress eVault Max battery, but there are some attractive things >> about the Envy and potentially the EG4 18k, and the price point and >> seemingly smart configuration of the EG4 LLI batteries are certainly >> eye-catching. >> >> I'm also currently starting to lean toward using Lithium batteries and >> inverters from the same manufacturer, as I'm growing weary of the >> mismatching firmware updates that are causing somewhat frequent issues >> between the 2 components. Although the inverter/battery integrated >> units (i.e. Sonen, Tesla, etc.) don't seem ideal, since the market is >> so volatile at the moment. If one component fails, I'd like the option >> to replace it with a different brand without having to replace the >> other component as well. Using the same manu doesn't necessarily cut >> down the problems, but it certainly will help in the troubleshooting >> process by hopefully having less of the "not my problem" or "we >> haven't seen that problem" responses from tech support. >> >> I really don't like making forays into bleeding-edge technologies, so >> I'm hoping to gain some experienced insight. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Howie Michaelson >> >> Sun Catcher _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > Morningstar Electric > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kirk at abundantsolar.com Fri Feb 16 19:06:08 2024 From: kirk at abundantsolar.com (Kirk Bailey) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2024 16:06:08 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment In-Reply-To: <729bc8b4c667a16ea2e22664271209a6@sti.net> References: <729bc8b4c667a16ea2e22664271209a6@sti.net> Message-ID: Dave, I took a quick look at the Discover AES battery specifications you linked to and didn't find an entry for how much power the BMS uses when the battery is turned ON, but doing nothing? In my experience the Fortress eFlex BMS uses on the order of 12-15 W, and it would be interesting to know how the AES compares. The absence of a BMS is a lead acid advantage for some remote applications. Thanks, Kirk Bailey www.abundantsolar.com On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 3:12 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Howie, I think you should also look again at the Discover rack mount system in the link below. Nice 75 year old company that made it's name on Locomotive batteries. Their prices are way down around 14 K for 30Kwh with heaters. If you have not looked at Lynk2 their gateway closed loop into SMA, Schneider, Solark, Morningstar and a few others you should. > > The only problems I have with Schneider are pretty easy and get resolved because I only use them and take all of the training. Conext Insight is a home run for my clients. Schneider also hired me to test their first closed loop system with LG back in 2017 and it still is working fine. > > https://discoverlithium.com/products/lithium-batteries/aes-rackmount > > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > > On 2024-02-16 2:02 pm, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises from their dealer oriented support department that we could expect better service from them. We had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple months ago after only a few months. Lots and lots of communications with Signature and we still don't have a BMS or replacement battery. It's been a shit show with them. I think we are going to remove them and install 3rd party BMS's and find some use for them. Maybe donate them. We've only had luck with Schneider/Discover pairings in closed loop. A large system we did with Sol-Arks never really worked in Closed loop, despite Discover coming to the site. Most likely it's a Sol-Ark issue, but we've reached Sol-Arks technical expertise limits. Even with Schneider/AES, there have been some issues that are causing me to re-consider Li for offgrid. I just had a conversation this morning with a long time off-grid pro and he said the same thing. It used to be, we'd install a wet lead acid bank and then ten years would pass before hearing from the client when it was time for another bank. Sometimes fifteen years. Our call backs with systems over the last ten years, first with a decline in equipment quality and then the switch to Li are costing us too much money and causing a lot of heartburn for our clients. Rant Over > > On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 12:57 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi All, > > I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG4 inverters and batteries. The comments have been mostly positive. I have stayed away from EG4 until now in part, for the reason the Michael Morningstar suggested last June - that is, they seemed very oriented to the DIY market and not real serious contenders in the lasting marketplace. However, I was at RE+ Boston this week and was quite surprised to see that the EG4 18k inverter is, for all I could tell, identical to the Fortress Envy 12k, in both physical layout as well as menu structure. I have very limited experience with the Envy (having just installed my 1st one last week, in order to compare it to the Sol-Ark 15). I don't have any thoughts about it yet, except that the font on the screen is quite small and the opening screen is not as intuitive as the Sol-Ark, but that might just take familiarizing myself more to the Envy (and/or the EG4). > > My question is, for folks who have had either the Envy or the EG4 inverters installed for a decent period of time, what is your current take on their functionality, durability, and for the EG4, the quality of support? Also, what experience have folks had similarly with the EG4 LLI batteries? I'm not unhappy with the Sol-Ark or in general the Fortress eVault Max battery, but there are some attractive things about the Envy and potentially the EG4 18k, and the price point and seemingly smart configuration of the EG4 LLI batteries are certainly eye-catching. > > I'm also currently starting to lean toward using Lithium batteries and inverters from the same manufacturer, as I'm growing weary of the mismatching firmware updates that are causing somewhat frequent issues between the 2 components. Although the inverter/battery integrated units (i.e. Sonen, Tesla, etc.) don't seem ideal, since the market is so volatile at the moment. If one component fails, I'd like the option to replace it with a different brand without having to replace the other component as well. Using the same manu doesn't necessarily cut down the problems, but it certainly will help in the troubleshooting process by hopefully having less of the "not my problem" or "we haven't seen that problem" responses from tech support. > > I really don't like making forays into bleeding-edge technologies, so I'm hoping to gain some experienced insight. > > Thanks, > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > > > > Michael Morningstar > > > > Morningstar Electric > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Fri Feb 16 19:28:22 2024 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2024 16:28:22 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Soligent outside request for info Message-ID: <1708129716881.42eb9ffd4d8148f2@re-wrenches.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 21:33:14 2024 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2024 19:33:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The issue I'm having with EG4 specifically and Signature Solar in general is a scattershot approach to UL and NRTL listings. Those listings may not be important to various DIY folks of varying levels of "git-er-done," but listings are critical for my business. Some products they sell are Listed per NEC, some are not, and some EG4 are listed, some are not. I recently contacted Signature Solar regarding their EG4 rack mount ESS modules and did not receive a satisfactory response, unfortunately a new off-grid client had already purchased an entire rack of them before consulting with me. Our county AHJ is very strict. I can't risk recommending or installing a system that would fail inspection. Here in Colorado they often even cross check the altitude ratings on all inverters. (sorry Schneider XW-Pro that I like so much, limit on your spec sheet is 2000m altitude) Signature Solar provided the usual NRTL stamp for UL 1741SA etc etc on the EG4 rack batteries, then also a UL 9540A testing certificate that they said should be sufficient, and it disturbed me that they did not seem to understand that UL 9540A is NOT a listing - it's a fire-resistance test that an ESS manufacturer can use as a document to help obtain their actual UL9540 listing, and also gain exemptions to spacing and other requirements....but from my understanding it's NOT an actual UL or NRTL listing to UL 9540. When I inquired about that, Signature Solar stopped communicating with me. I'm pretty sure my understanding of UL 9540 listing vs. 9540A testing is correct, but I would appreciate any input before again gently confronting both AHJs and manufacturers. Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Fri Feb 16 21:46:42 2024 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2024 02:46:42 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo RSS Off Grid Message-ID: Has anyone successfully used a MidNite Classic CC to power a Tigo Rapid Shutdown Transmitter in an off grid setting ? Specifically using the 12v Aux output to keep the PV circuits alive instead of relying on the inverter AC output to do this. Think of this scenario. Batteries reach LBCO, inverter shuts OFF, no PV to re charge back to LBCI, no generator backup to recharge batteries. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 22:44:56 2024 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2024 17:44:56 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howie, The EG4 18K and the Fortress Envy are both made by the same manufacturer, LuxPower. Google the LXP 12K and it will all make sense. I can’t speak for EG4, but I know that Fortress has progressed from simply white labeling this unit to doing a significant amount of programming and additional integration, specifically with regards to their monitoring platform. Personally, I have always had a skeptical approach with EG4. The EX line was chintzy at best. Every prospective client I have crossed paths with that has called out EG4 equipment thinks they know more and want it cheaper because they watched a few YouTube videos where unqualified DIY hacks free air conductors. I don’t want to write EG4 off completely, and am interested in their PowerPro battery. But with the ebb and flow of battery manufacturers, I wouldn’t be surprised if they weren’t around in 5 years. I feel differently about Fortress Power and although they have been a little overactive in the inverter market, I do believe that they are well intentioned and that their products and business are solid. There has been some recent LFP bashing, and respectfully, I will agree to disagree. Early iterations of LFP had frequent issues with BMS and cell failure, but all in all, LFP has been a shining star in off-grid applications. I say this having installed 100+ eVault Max 18.5 in strictly off-grid scenarios. Sure there are phone calls and necessary firmware updates (however never a single BMS failure with the eVault Max), but I’m not having the heartbreaking conversations of “when we came back from vacation our 48v lead acid battery bank was at 15 volts”. I don’t like those phone calls. I also don't like holes in my pants and shirts or calls that CO monitors are alarming because of dead vent fans. I’m not dying on the hill of LFP, but I will say that I am firmly in support of the measurable improvements they have made for my customers. Paired with remote monitoring, the truck rolls a lot less. Kindly, Chris On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 4:33 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > The issue I'm having with EG4 specifically and Signature Solar in general > is a scattershot approach to UL and NRTL listings. Those listings may not > be important to various DIY folks of varying levels of "git-er-done," but > listings are critical for my business. Some products they sell are Listed > per NEC, some are not, and some EG4 are listed, some are not. I recently > contacted Signature Solar regarding their EG4 rack mount ESS modules and > did not receive a satisfactory response, unfortunately a new off-grid > client had already purchased an entire rack of them before consulting with > me. Our county AHJ is very strict. I can't risk recommending or installing > a system that would fail inspection. Here in Colorado they often even cross > check the altitude ratings on all inverters. (sorry Schneider XW-Pro that I > like so much, limit on your spec sheet is 2000m altitude) > > Signature Solar provided the usual NRTL stamp for UL 1741SA etc etc on the > EG4 rack batteries, then also a UL 9540A testing certificate that they said > should be sufficient, and it disturbed me that they did not seem to > understand that UL 9540A is NOT a listing - it's a fire-resistance test > that an ESS manufacturer can use as a document to help obtain their actual > UL9540 listing, and also gain exemptions to spacing and other > requirements....but from my understanding it's NOT an actual UL or NRTL > listing to UL 9540. When I inquired about that, Signature Solar stopped > communicating with me. > > I'm pretty sure my understanding of UL 9540 listing vs. 9540A testing is > correct, but I would appreciate any input before again gently confronting > both AHJs and manufacturers. > > Dan Fink > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > NABCEP PV Associate > d anbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Feb 17 08:40:00 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2024 08:40:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Beyond the listing issues, there are also the NFPA 855 maximum energy storage limitations to consider that battery manufacturers and distributors are not considering in their marketing, leading consumers to conclusions that won't work. I have a client who purchased three full racks of EG4 LL as a kit and intended to put them in a garage. That's 5.12kWh x 3 x 6 = 92.16 kWh. That exceeds the 80kWh limit. I had to break the news and tell them to return three of the batteries. It seems pretty strange for Tesla to be putting out a 13.5kWh Powerwall 3 (13.5 x 3 > 40kWh and 13.5 x 6 > 80kWh). The EG4 PowerPro at 14.3kWh suffers from the same capacity issues. At least Enphase has its head out of the sand and offers options at precisely 40kWh and 80kWh capacity ratings. Manufacturers seem to have a cavalier attitude toward these issues and make it the designer/installer's issue to deal with. Meanwhile, they are losing sales when they make a battery that puts them at 42.9kWh for a 3-pack. Strange... Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 9:34 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > The issue I'm having with EG4 specifically and Signature Solar in general > is a scattershot approach to UL and NRTL listings. Those listings may not > be important to various DIY folks of varying levels of "git-er-done," but > listings are critical for my business. Some products they sell are Listed > per NEC, some are not, and some EG4 are listed, some are not. I recently > contacted Signature Solar regarding their EG4 rack mount ESS modules and > did not receive a satisfactory response, unfortunately a new off-grid > client had already purchased an entire rack of them before consulting with > me. Our county AHJ is very strict. I can't risk recommending or installing > a system that would fail inspection. Here in Colorado they often even cross > check the altitude ratings on all inverters. (sorry Schneider XW-Pro that I > like so much, limit on your spec sheet is 2000m altitude) > > Signature Solar provided the usual NRTL stamp for UL 1741SA etc etc on the > EG4 rack batteries, then also a UL 9540A testing certificate that they said > should be sufficient, and it disturbed me that they did not seem to > understand that UL 9540A is NOT a listing - it's a fire-resistance test > that an ESS manufacturer can use as a document to help obtain their actual > UL9540 listing, and also gain exemptions to spacing and other > requirements....but from my understanding it's NOT an actual UL or NRTL > listing to UL 9540. When I inquired about that, Signature Solar stopped > communicating with me. > > I'm pretty sure my understanding of UL 9540 listing vs. 9540A testing is > correct, but I would appreciate any input before again gently confronting > both AHJs and manufacturers. > > Dan Fink > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > NABCEP PV Associate > d anbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Feb 17 08:46:24 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2024 06:46:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F7164DE-0C41-454D-9A47-D2BD3EB2D074@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Sat Feb 17 11:35:36 2024 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2024 08:35:36 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo RSS Off Grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I powered a MidNite LSOB transmitter from a Classic AUX, though the receivers didn't work with the Classic. The Classic is limited to 200ma output and the Tigo and APS transmitters are rated at up to 800ma input, so it might overload the Classic AUX output if they really do draw that much. I tested an APS RSD system recently with a Classic and it did not work well. I believe that the Tigo transmitter is very similar since the APS devices say "licensed by Tigo" on them, So, the Tigo RSD devices may not work well with a Classic either. What I recommended while at AEE was to use a 48VDC to 12VDC converter to power the Tigo and APS transmitters. This works well. Here's the one I recommended if it's still available: mean-well/ddr30l12 I never had any negative feedback using this with a Sol-Ark and APS devices. With a Classic in the system I've had to use the FireRaptor RSD devices. If you can get approval or have older modules, you might be able to follow the FireRaptor instructions and use 2 modules in series for each FireRaptor. You do still have to have a way to disconnect the PV output circuit from the Classic in order to make that circuit dead from the Classic end of the circuit. I did that by putting an MNPV6-disco on the power shed which disconnects the PV output circuit as well as the 24VDC to the FireRaptors. And, I am powering my FireRaptors at 15VDC and it works fine. Brad Bassett, ret. On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 6:47 PM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Has anyone successfully used a MidNite Classic CC to power a Tigo Rapid > Shutdown Transmitter in an off grid setting ? Specifically using the 12v > Aux output to keep the PV circuits alive instead of relying on the inverter > AC output to do this. > > Think of this scenario. Batteries reach LBCO, inverter shuts OFF, no PV > to re charge back to LBCI, no generator backup to recharge batteries. > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Sat Feb 17 11:45:02 2024 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2024 08:45:02 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo RSS Off Grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For what it's worth, here's a spreadsheet I used for specifying RSD for various systems. Some of this is out of date but might be useful still. I've attached some drawings for many of these systems as well. On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at 8:35 AM Bradley Bassett wrote: > I powered a MidNite LSOB transmitter from a Classic AUX, though the > receivers didn't work with the Classic. The Classic is limited to 200ma > output and the Tigo and APS transmitters are rated at up to 800ma input, so > it might overload the Classic AUX output if they really do draw that much. > > I tested an APS RSD system recently with a Classic and it did not work > well. I believe that the Tigo transmitter is very similar since the APS > devices say "licensed by Tigo" on them, So, the Tigo RSD devices may not > work well with a Classic either. > > What I recommended while at AEE was to use a 48VDC to 12VDC converter to > power the Tigo and APS transmitters. This works well. Here's the one I > recommended if it's still available: mean-well/ddr30l12 > I > never had any negative feedback using this with a Sol-Ark and APS devices. > > With a Classic in the system I've had to use the FireRaptor RSD devices. > If you can get approval or have older modules, you might be able to follow > the FireRaptor instructions and use 2 modules in series for each > FireRaptor. You do still have to have a way to disconnect the PV output > circuit from the Classic in order to make that circuit dead from the > Classic end of the circuit. I did that by putting an MNPV6-disco on the > power shed which disconnects the PV output circuit as well as the 24VDC to > the FireRaptors. And, I am powering my FireRaptors at 15VDC and it works > fine. > > Brad Bassett, ret. > > > > > On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 6:47 PM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Has anyone successfully used a MidNite Classic CC to power a Tigo Rapid >> Shutdown Transmitter in an off grid setting ? Specifically using the 12v >> Aux output to keep the PV circuits alive instead of relying on the inverter >> AC output to do this. >> >> Think of this scenario. Batteries reach LBCO, inverter shuts OFF, no PV >> to re charge back to LBCI, no generator backup to recharge batteries. >> >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> Solar Installation / Design >> All Solar, Inc. >> 1453 M St. >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: MLRSD APS Sol-Ark switch relay Control Wiring.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 106580 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sat Feb 17 12:43:06 2024 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2024 12:43:06 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <24dad5c5f2519db4c4e99e2ad203ba13@redwoodalliance.org> I fully agree that off grid solar has taken a major downturn. Once the equipment became software based, the reliability dropped. Sure, there are nice features available with these cyber enhanced systems, but the cost in reliability makes being energy independent off the grid hard to accomplish. There are good reports on Samlex products. Has anyone tried their new 120/240 split phase units? Are they stack-able yet? As far as batteries go, I'm pretty much in the Lead Head club, especially for off grid. That being said, lead acid batteries, especially AGMs have gotten really expensive and it seems the quality isn't what it used to be. What is the best AGM battery these days? Thanks, Drake --- On 2024-02-16 17:02, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises from their dealer oriented support department that we could expect better service from them. We had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple months ago after only a few months. Lots and lots of communications with Signature and we still don't have a BMS or replacement battery. It's been a shit show with them. I think we are going to remove them and install 3rd party BMS's and find some use for them. Maybe donate them. We've only had luck with Schneider/Discover pairings in closed loop. A large system we did with Sol-Arks never really worked in Closed loop, despite Discover coming to the site. Most likely it's a Sol-Ark issue, but we've reached Sol-Arks technical expertise limits. Even with Schneider/AES, there have been some issues that are causing me to re-consider Li for offgrid. I just had a conversation this morning with a long time off-grid pro and he said the same thing. It used to be, we'd install a wet lead acid bank and then ten years would pass before hearing from the client when it was time for another bank. Sometimes fifteen years. Our call backs with systems over the last ten years, first with a decline in equipment quality and then the switch to Li are costing us too much money and causing a lot of heartburn for our clients. Rant Over > > On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 12:57 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG4 inverters and batteries. The comments have been mostly positive. I have stayed away from EG4 until now in part, for the reason the Michael Morningstar suggested last June - that is, they seemed very oriented to the DIY market and not real serious contenders in the lasting marketplace. However, I was at RE+ Boston this week and was quite surprised to see that the EG4 18k inverter is, for all I could tell, identical to the Fortress Envy 12k, in both physical layout as well as menu structure. I have very limited experience with the Envy (having just installed my 1st one last week, in order to compare it to the Sol-Ark 15). I don't have any thoughts about it yet, except that the font on the screen is quite small and the opening screen is not as intuitive as the Sol-Ark, but that might just take familiarizing myself more to the Envy (and/or the EG4). >> >> My question is, for folks who have had either the Envy or the EG4 inverters installed for a decent period of time, what is your current take on their functionality, durability, and for the EG4, the quality of support? Also, what experience have folks had similarly with the EG4 LLI batteries? I'm not unhappy with the Sol-Ark or in general the Fortress eVault Max battery, but there are some attractive things about the Envy and potentially the EG4 18k, and the price point and seemingly smart configuration of the EG4 LLI batteries are certainly eye-catching. >> >> I'm also currently starting to lean toward using Lithium batteries and inverters from the same manufacturer, as I'm growing weary of the mismatching firmware updates that are causing somewhat frequent issues between the 2 components. Although the inverter/battery integrated units (i.e. Sonen, Tesla, etc.) don't seem ideal, since the market is so volatile at the moment. If one component fails, I'd like the option to replace it with a different brand without having to replace the other component as well. Using the same manu doesn't necessarily cut down the problems, but it certainly will help in the troubleshooting process by hopefully having less of the "not my problem" or "we haven't seen that problem" responses from tech support. >> >> I really don't like making forays into bleeding-edge technologies, so I'm hoping to gain some experienced insight. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Howie Michaelson >> >> Sun Catcher _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > Morningstar Electric > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Feb 17 13:05:51 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2024 10:05:51 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment In-Reply-To: <24dad5c5f2519db4c4e99e2ad203ba13@redwoodalliance.org> References: <24dad5c5f2519db4c4e99e2ad203ba13@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <6090fcf2b991594ad1d6ce82a91f170c@sti.net> Surrette and Full river AGM's Been berry berry good to me! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-02-17 9:43 am, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > I fully agree that off grid solar has taken a major downturn. Once the > equipment became software based, the reliability dropped. Sure, there > are nice features available with these cyber enhanced systems, but the > cost in reliability makes being energy independent off the grid hard to > accomplish. > > There are good reports on Samlex products. Has anyone tried their new > 120/240 split phase units? Are they stack-able yet? > > As far as batteries go, I'm pretty much in the Lead Head club, > especially for off grid. That being said, lead acid batteries, > especially AGMs have gotten really expensive and it seems the quality > isn't what it used to be. > > What is the best AGM battery these days? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > --- > > On 2024-02-16 17:02, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises from their > dealer oriented support department that we could expect better service > from them. We had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple months ago after only a > few months. Lots and lots of communications with Signature and we still > don't have a BMS or replacement battery. It's been a shit show with > them. I think we are going to remove them and install 3rd party BMS's > and find some use for them. Maybe donate them. We've only had luck with > Schneider/Discover pairings in closed loop. A large system we did with > Sol-Arks never really worked in Closed loop, despite Discover coming to > the site. Most likely it's a Sol-Ark issue, but we've reached Sol-Arks > technical expertise limits. Even with Schneider/AES, there have been > some issues that are causing me to re-consider Li for offgrid. I just > had a conversation this morning with a long time off-grid pro and he > said the same thing. It used to be, we'd install a wet lead acid bank > and then ten years would pass before hearing from the client when it > was time for another bank. Sometimes fifteen years. Our call backs with > systems over the last ten years, first with a decline in equipment > quality and then the switch to Li are costing us too much money and > causing a lot of heartburn for our clients. Rant Over > > On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 12:57 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi All, > > I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG4 inverters and > batteries. The comments have been mostly positive. I have stayed away > from EG4 until now in part, for the reason the Michael Morningstar > suggested last June - that is, they seemed very oriented to the DIY > market and not real serious contenders in the lasting marketplace. > However, I was at RE+ Boston this week and was quite surprised to see > that the EG4 18k inverter is, for all I could tell, identical to the > Fortress Envy 12k, in both physical layout as well as menu structure. I > have very limited experience with the Envy (having just installed my > 1st one last week, in order to compare it to the Sol-Ark 15). I don't > have any thoughts about it yet, except that the font on the screen is > quite small and the opening screen is not as intuitive as the Sol-Ark, > but that might just take familiarizing myself more to the Envy (and/or > the EG4). > > My question is, for folks who have had either the Envy or the EG4 > inverters installed for a decent period of time, what is your current > take on their functionality, durability, and for the EG4, the quality > of support? Also, what experience have folks had similarly with the EG4 > LLI batteries? I'm not unhappy with the Sol-Ark or in general the > Fortress eVault Max battery, but there are some attractive things about > the Envy and potentially the EG4 18k, and the price point and seemingly > smart configuration of the EG4 LLI batteries are certainly > eye-catching. > > I'm also currently starting to lean toward using Lithium batteries and > inverters from the same manufacturer, as I'm growing weary of the > mismatching firmware updates that are causing somewhat frequent issues > between the 2 components. Although the inverter/battery integrated > units (i.e. Sonen, Tesla, etc.) don't seem ideal, since the market is > so volatile at the moment. If one component fails, I'd like the option > to replace it with a different brand without having to replace the > other component as well. Using the same manu doesn't necessarily cut > down the problems, but it certainly will help in the troubleshooting > process by hopefully having less of the "not my problem" or "we haven't > seen that problem" responses from tech support. > > I really don't like making forays into bleeding-edge technologies, so > I'm hoping to gain some experienced insight. > > Thanks, > > Howie Michaelson > > Sun Catcher _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > Morningstar Electric > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Feb 17 13:02:21 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2024 10:02:21 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment In-Reply-To: <24dad5c5f2519db4c4e99e2ad203ba13@redwoodalliance.org> References: <24dad5c5f2519db4c4e99e2ad203ba13@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Drake: I prefer the UnigyII VRLA batteries. Full river 2 volt L-16s are pretty good and they allow one string configuration in larger AH settings. I agree that as features grow so does complexity. However there is no substitute for good remote monitoring and control. I can understand much better the operation of systems with easy access to historic data and I save a butt-load of driving. I wish the Outback and Sunny Island files could be obtained remotely for better analysis. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Saturday, February 17, 2024 9:43 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment I fully agree that off grid solar has taken a major downturn. Once the equipment became software based, the reliability dropped. Sure, there are nice features available with these cyber enhanced systems, but the cost in reliability makes being energy independent off the grid hard to accomplish. There are good reports on Samlex products. Has anyone tried their new 120/240 split phase units? Are they stack-able yet? As far as batteries go, I'm pretty much in the Lead Head club, especially for off grid. That being said, lead acid batteries, especially AGMs have gotten really expensive and it seems the quality isn't what it used to be. What is the best AGM battery these days? Thanks, Drake --- On 2024-02-16 17:02, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises from their dealer oriented support department that we could expect better service from them. We had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple months ago after only a few months. Lots and lots of communications with Signature and we still don't have a BMS or replacement battery. It's been a shit show with them. I think we are going to remove them and install 3rd party BMS's and find some use for them. Maybe donate them. We've only had luck with Schneider/Discover pairings in closed loop. A large system we did with Sol-Arks never really worked in Closed loop, despite Discover coming to the site. Most likely it's a Sol-Ark issue, but we've reached Sol-Arks technical expertise limits. Even with Schneider/AES, there have been some issues that are causing me to re-consider Li for offgrid. I just had a conversation this morning with a long time off-grid pro and he said the same thing. It used to be, we'd install a wet lead acid bank and then ten years would pass before hearing from the client when it was time for another bank. Sometimes fifteen years. Our call backs with systems over the last ten years, first with a decline in equipment quality and then the switch to Li are costing us too much money and causing a lot of heartburn for our clients. Rant Over On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 12:57 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Hi All, I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG4 inverters and batteries. The comments have been mostly positive. I have stayed away from EG4 until now in part, for the reason the Michael Morningstar suggested last June - that is, they seemed very oriented to the DIY market and not real serious contenders in the lasting marketplace. However, I was at RE+ Boston this week and was quite surprised to see that the EG4 18k inverter is, for all I could tell, identical to the Fortress Envy 12k, in both physical layout as well as menu structure. I have very limited experience with the Envy (having just installed my 1st one last week, in order to compare it to the Sol-Ark 15). I don't have any thoughts about it yet, except that the font on the screen is quite small and the opening screen is not as intuitive as the Sol-Ark, but that might just take familiarizing myself more to the Envy (and/or the EG4). My question is, for folks who have had either the Envy or the EG4 inverters installed for a decent period of time, what is your current take on their functionality, durability, and for the EG4, the quality of support? Also, what experience have folks had similarly with the EG4 LLI batteries? I'm not unhappy with the Sol-Ark or in general the Fortress eVault Max battery, but there are some attractive things about the Envy and potentially the EG4 18k, and the price point and seemingly smart configuration of the EG4 LLI batteries are certainly eye-catching. I'm also currently starting to lean toward using Lithium batteries and inverters from the same manufacturer, as I'm growing weary of the mismatching firmware updates that are causing somewhat frequent issues between the 2 components. Although the inverter/battery integrated units (i.e. Sonen, Tesla, etc.) don't seem ideal, since the market is so volatile at the moment. If one component fails, I'd like the option to replace it with a different brand without having to replace the other component as well. Using the same manu doesn't necessarily cut down the problems, but it certainly will help in the troubleshooting process by hopefully having less of the "not my problem" or "we haven't seen that problem" responses from tech support. I really don't like making forays into bleeding-edge technologies, so I'm hoping to gain some experienced insight. Thanks, Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 mjmorningstar at gmail.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Sat Feb 17 13:48:19 2024 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2024 14:48:19 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo RSS Off Grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <74f96b38-725e-28c8-8ed3-2a7375d85505@midnitesolar.com> Hi Jeremy... The Classic AUX outputs will put out about 13 volts and allow up to about 200 mA maximum. That might be enough to power the transmitter. That is only about 2.5 watts so might not work directly. 🌜boB🌛 Docked at Trinidad/Tobago today.  Great sun here.  Have only seen one PV module on this cruise so far. On 2/16/2024 10:46 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches wrote: > Has anyone successfully used a MidNite Classic CC to power a Tigo Rapid Shutdown Transmitter in an off grid setting ? Specifically using the 12v Aux output to keep the PV circuits alive instead of relying on the inverter AC output to do this. > > Think of this scenario. Batteries reach LBCO, inverter shuts OFF, no PV to re charge back to LBCI, no generator backup to recharge batteries. > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From ray at solarray.com Sat Feb 17 14:05:48 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2024 12:05:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo RSS Off Grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <11a968f4-9f5a-42b2-81c0-c4f7d31d724f@solarray.com> I second using the 48v to 12 v DC DC converter.  I've had success with that, and avoided the issues Jeremy mentioned. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 2/17/2024 9:35 AM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches wrote: > I powered a MidNite LSOB transmitter from a Classic AUX, though the > receivers didn't work with the Classic. The Classic is limited to > 200ma output and the Tigo and APS transmitters are rated at up to > 800ma input, so it might overload the Classic AUX output if they > really do draw that much. > > I tested an APS RSD system recently with a Classic and it did not work > well. I believe that the Tigo transmitter is very similar since the > APS devices say "licensed by Tigo" on them, So, the Tigo RSD devices > may not work well with a Classic either. > > What I recommended while at AEE was to use a 48VDC to 12VDC converter > to power the Tigo and APS transmitters. This works well. Here's the > one I recommended if it's still available: mean-well/ddr30l12 >     > I never had any negative feedback using this with a Sol-Ark and APS > devices. > > With a Classic in the system I've had to use the FireRaptor RSD > devices. If you can get approval or have older modules, you might be > able to follow the FireRaptor instructions and use 2 modules in series > for each FireRaptor. You do still have to have a way to disconnect the > PV output circuit from the Classic in order to make that circuit dead > from the Classic end of the circuit. I did that by putting an > MNPV6-disco on the power shed which disconnects the PV output circuit > as well as the 24VDC to the FireRaptors. And, I am powering my > FireRaptors at 15VDC and it works fine. > > Brad Bassett, ret. > > > > > On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 6:47 PM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Has anyone successfully used a MidNite Classic CC to power a Tigo > Rapid Shutdown Transmitter in an off grid setting ? Specifically > using the 12v Aux output to keep the PV circuits alive instead of > relying on the inverter AC output to do this. > > Think of this scenario.  Batteries reach LBCO, inverter shuts OFF, > no PV to re charge back to LBCI, no generator backup to recharge > batteries. > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Feb 17 14:27:17 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2024 12:27:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5e36175d-4f68-49b2-ae2c-ab69386f3203@solarray.com> Chris; I was definitely moving to the LFP camp for off grid for all the same reasons you mentioned, but I've just had too much trouble, so I'm heading back to lead acid for now.  I missed the acid burned jeans, its a "look"..... Seriously, you mentioned customers coming back to a lead acid battery at 16 v; how about a $12k LFP bank doing the same thing? At least lead acid can be recovered to some extent.  I'm not married to either platform, I just want to spend my customers' money on the most reliable solution, and after having both temperature related issues, and failed BMS, lead acid is back. Maybe when my current lead acid installations need to be replaced, LFP will have solved 2 very important issues: 1) More Robust BMS boards that can be field replaced. 2) On board heating system for below freezing conditions. I think we're close, but definitely not there. Also, with all the mention of various UL listings, regulation needs to evolve to differentiate between LiFePO4 and other Li+ chemistries.  LiFePO4 is inherently much safer, but we're being forced to comply with all the same regulations as the less stable, more energy dense chemistries. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 2/16/2024 8:44 PM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote: > Howie, > > The EG4 18K and the Fortress Envy are both made by the same > manufacturer, LuxPower. Google the LXP 12K and it will all make > sense.  I can’t speak for EG4, but I know that Fortress has progressed > from simply white labeling this unit to doing a significant amount of > programming and additional integration, specifically with regards to > their monitoring platform. > > Personally, I have always had a skeptical approach with EG4. The EX > line was chintzy at best. Every prospective client I have crossed > paths with that has called out EG4 equipment thinks they know more and > want it cheaper because they watched a few YouTube videos where > unqualified DIY hacks free air conductors. I don’t want to write EG4 > off completely, and am interested in their PowerPro battery. But with > the ebb and flow of battery manufacturers, I wouldn’t be surprised if > they weren’t around in 5 years. I feel differently about Fortress > Power and although they have been a little overactive in the inverter > market, I do believe that they are well intentioned and that their > products and business are solid. > > There has been some recent LFP bashing, and respectfully, I will agree > to disagree. Early iterations of LFP had frequent issues with BMS and > cell failure, but all in all, LFP has been a shining star in off-grid > applications. I say this having installed 100+ eVault Max 18.5 in > strictly off-grid scenarios. Sure there are phone calls and necessary > firmware updates (however never a single BMS failure with the eVault > Max), but I’m not having the heartbreaking conversations of “when we > came back from vacation our 48v lead acid battery bank was at 15 > volts”. I don’t like those phone calls. I also don't like holes in my > pants and shirts or calls that CO monitors are alarming because of > dead vent fans. I’m not dying on the hill of LFP, but I will say that > I am firmly in support of the measurable improvements they have made > for my customers. Paired with remote monitoring, the truck rolls a lot > less. > > Kindly, > > Chris > > > > > > > On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 4:33 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > The issue I'm having with EG4 specifically and Signature Solar in > general is a scattershot approach to UL and NRTL listings. Those > listings may not be important to various DIY folks of > varying levels of "git-er-done," but listings are critical for > my business. Some products they sell are Listed per NEC, some are > not, and some EG4 are listed, some are not. I recently contacted > Signature Solar regarding their EG4 rack mount ESS modules and did > not receive a satisfactory response, unfortunately a new off-grid > client had already purchased an entire rack of them before > consulting with me. Our county AHJ is very strict. I can't risk > recommending or installing a system that would fail inspection. > Here in Colorado they often even cross check the altitude ratings > on all inverters. (sorry Schneider XW-Pro that I like so much, > limit on your spec sheet is 2000m altitude) > > Signature Solar provided the usual NRTL stamp for UL 1741SA etc > etc on the EG4 rack batteries, then also a UL 9540A testing > certificate that they said should be sufficient, and it disturbed > me that they did not seem to understand that UL 9540A is NOT a > listing - it's a fire-resistance test that an ESS manufacturer can > use as a document to help obtain their actual UL9540 listing, and > also gain exemptions to spacing and other requirements....but from > my understanding it's NOT an actual UL or NRTL listing to UL 9540. > When I inquired about that, Signature Solar stopped communicating > with me. > > I'm pretty sure my understanding of UL 9540 listing vs. 9540A > testing is correct, but I would appreciate any input before again > gently confronting both AHJs and manufacturers. > > Dan Fink > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > NABCEP PV Associate > d anbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Sat Feb 17 14:33:03 2024 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2024 13:33:03 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment In-Reply-To: <24dad5c5f2519db4c4e99e2ad203ba13@redwoodalliance.org> References: <24dad5c5f2519db4c4e99e2ad203ba13@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: I used to be Lead AGM for Off-grid; I used the Pure Lead Thin Plate for an install 4 years ago from AltE, and it is still working fine. I believe the LiFe is the battery for off-grid and the trick is to find the correct BMS, On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at 11:43 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I fully agree that off grid solar has taken a major downturn. Once the > equipment became software based, the reliability dropped. Sure, there are > nice features available with these cyber enhanced systems, but the cost in > reliability makes being energy independent off the grid hard to accomplish. > > There are good reports on Samlex products. Has anyone tried their new > 120/240 split phase units? Are they stack-able yet? > > As far as batteries go, I'm pretty much in the Lead Head club, especially > for off grid. That being said, lead acid batteries, especially AGMs have > gotten really expensive and it seems the quality isn't what it used to be. > > What is the best AGM battery these days? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > > --- > > > > On 2024-02-16 17:02, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises from their dealer > oriented support department that we could expect better service from them. > We had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple months ago after only a few months. > Lots and lots of communications with Signature and we still don't have a > BMS or replacement battery. It's been a shit show with them. I think we are > going to remove them and install 3rd party BMS's and find some use for > them. Maybe donate them. We've only had luck with Schneider/Discover > pairings in closed loop. A large system we did with Sol-Arks never really > worked in Closed loop, despite Discover coming to the site. Most likely > it's a Sol-Ark issue, but we've reached Sol-Arks technical expertise > limits. Even with Schneider/AES, there have been some issues that are > causing me to re-consider Li for offgrid. I just had a conversation this > morning with a long time off-grid pro and he said the same thing. It used > to be, we'd install a wet lead acid bank and then ten years would pass > before hearing from the client when it was time for another bank. Sometimes > fifteen years. Our call backs with systems over the last ten years, first > with a decline in equipment quality and then the switch to Li are costing > us too much money and causing a lot of heartburn for our clients. Rant Over > > On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 12:57 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi All, > > I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG4 inverters and > batteries. The comments have been mostly positive. I have stayed away from > EG4 until now in part, for the reason the Michael Morningstar suggested > last June - that is, they seemed very oriented to the DIY market and not > real serious contenders in the lasting marketplace. However, I was at RE+ > Boston this week and was quite surprised to see that the EG4 18k inverter > is, for all I could tell, identical to the Fortress Envy 12k, in both > physical layout as well as menu structure. I have very limited experience > with the Envy (having just installed my 1st one last week, in order to > compare it to the Sol-Ark 15). I don't have any thoughts about it yet, > except that the font on the screen is quite small and the opening screen is > not as intuitive as the Sol-Ark, but that might just take familiarizing > myself more to the Envy (and/or the EG4). > > My question is, for folks who have had either the Envy or the EG4 > inverters installed for a decent period of time, what is your current take > on their functionality, durability, and for the EG4, the quality of > support? Also, what experience have folks had similarly with the EG4 LLI > batteries? I'm not unhappy with the Sol-Ark or in general the Fortress > eVault Max battery, but there are some attractive things about the Envy and > potentially the EG4 18k, and the price point and seemingly smart > configuration of the EG4 LLI batteries are certainly eye-catching. > > I'm also currently starting to lean toward using Lithium batteries and > inverters from the same manufacturer, as I'm growing weary of the > mismatching firmware updates that are causing somewhat frequent issues > between the 2 components. Although the inverter/battery integrated units > (i.e. Sonen, Tesla, etc.) don't seem ideal, since the market is so volatile > at the moment. If one component fails, I'd like the option to replace it > with a different brand without having to replace the other component as > well. Using the same manu doesn't necessarily cut down the problems, but it > certainly will help in the troubleshooting process by hopefully having less > of the "not my problem" or "we haven't seen that problem" responses from > tech support. > > I really don't like making forays into bleeding-edge technologies, so I'm > hoping to gain some experienced insight. > > Thanks, > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > > > > Michael Morningstar > > > > Morningstar Electric > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Sat Feb 17 15:16:16 2024 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2024 12:16:16 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment In-Reply-To: <6090fcf2b991594ad1d6ce82a91f170c@sti.net> References: <24dad5c5f2519db4c4e99e2ad203ba13@redwoodalliance.org> <6090fcf2b991594ad1d6ce82a91f170c@sti.net> Message-ID: Becareful with the EG4s and AGMs. Last I checked the EG4s couldn't be properly programmed to charge at a high enough voltage to properly charge some of the heavier plated AGM. Surrette and Full river AGMs need to be charged at 58.8 temp compensated to -4mv/deg/c... The EG4s like the Sol Arks and a ton of the Hybrid inverters aren't really made to charge lead batteries in general... some you can make work, many you can't. On Sat, Feb 17, 2024, 10:06 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Surrette and Full river AGM's Been berry berry good to me! > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2024-02-17 9:43 am, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I fully agree that off grid solar has taken a major downturn. Once the > equipment became software based, the reliability dropped. Sure, there are > nice features available with these cyber enhanced systems, but the cost in > reliability makes being energy independent off the grid hard to accomplish. > > There are good reports on Samlex products. Has anyone tried their new > 120/240 split phase units? Are they stack-able yet? > > As far as batteries go, I'm pretty much in the Lead Head club, especially > for off grid. That being said, lead acid batteries, especially AGMs have > gotten really expensive and it seems the quality isn't what it used to be. > > What is the best AGM battery these days? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > > --- > > > > On 2024-02-16 17:02, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises from their dealer > oriented support department that we could expect better service from them. > We had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple months ago after only a few months. > Lots and lots of communications with Signature and we still don't have a > BMS or replacement battery. It's been a shit show with them. I think we are > going to remove them and install 3rd party BMS's and find some use for > them. Maybe donate them. We've only had luck with Schneider/Discover > pairings in closed loop. A large system we did with Sol-Arks never really > worked in Closed loop, despite Discover coming to the site. Most likely > it's a Sol-Ark issue, but we've reached Sol-Arks technical expertise > limits. Even with Schneider/AES, there have been some issues that are > causing me to re-consider Li for offgrid. I just had a conversation this > morning with a long time off-grid pro and he said the same thing. It used > to be, we'd install a wet lead acid bank and then ten years would pass > before hearing from the client when it was time for another bank. Sometimes > fifteen years. Our call backs with systems over the last ten years, first > with a decline in equipment quality and then the switch to Li are costing > us too much money and causing a lot of heartburn for our clients. Rant Over > > On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 12:57 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi All, > > I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG4 inverters and > batteries. The comments have been mostly positive. I have stayed away from > EG4 until now in part, for the reason the Michael Morningstar suggested > last June - that is, they seemed very oriented to the DIY market and not > real serious contenders in the lasting marketplace. However, I was at RE+ > Boston this week and was quite surprised to see that the EG4 18k inverter > is, for all I could tell, identical to the Fortress Envy 12k, in both > physical layout as well as menu structure. I have very limited experience > with the Envy (having just installed my 1st one last week, in order to > compare it to the Sol-Ark 15). I don't have any thoughts about it yet, > except that the font on the screen is quite small and the opening screen is > not as intuitive as the Sol-Ark, but that might just take familiarizing > myself more to the Envy (and/or the EG4). > > My question is, for folks who have had either the Envy or the EG4 > inverters installed for a decent period of time, what is your current take > on their functionality, durability, and for the EG4, the quality of > support? Also, what experience have folks had similarly with the EG4 LLI > batteries? I'm not unhappy with the Sol-Ark or in general the Fortress > eVault Max battery, but there are some attractive things about the Envy and > potentially the EG4 18k, and the price point and seemingly smart > configuration of the EG4 LLI batteries are certainly eye-catching. > > I'm also currently starting to lean toward using Lithium batteries and > inverters from the same manufacturer, as I'm growing weary of the > mismatching firmware updates that are causing somewhat frequent issues > between the 2 components. Although the inverter/battery integrated units > (i.e. Sonen, Tesla, etc.) don't seem ideal, since the market is so volatile > at the moment. If one component fails, I'd like the option to replace it > with a different brand without having to replace the other component as > well. Using the same manu doesn't necessarily cut down the problems, but it > certainly will help in the troubleshooting process by hopefully having less > of the "not my problem" or "we haven't seen that problem" responses from > tech support. > > I really don't like making forays into bleeding-edge technologies, so I'm > hoping to gain some experienced insight. > > Thanks, > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > > > > Michael Morningstar > > > > Morningstar Electric > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Feb 17 15:33:05 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2024 13:33:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment In-Reply-To: <5e36175d-4f68-49b2-ae2c-ab69386f3203@solarray.com> References: <5e36175d-4f68-49b2-ae2c-ab69386f3203@solarray.com> Message-ID: <2A389686-3ACD-4098-94B6-0B11AFE2473B@gmail.com> A number of people have mentioned strict code compliance. How are lead batteries dealing with this? thanks jay > On Feb 17, 2024, at 12:27 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Chris; > > I was definitely moving to the LFP camp for off grid for all the same reasons you mentioned, but I've just had too much trouble, so I'm heading back to lead acid for now. I missed the acid burned jeans, its a "look"..... > > Seriously, you mentioned customers coming back to a lead acid battery at 16 v; how about a $12k LFP bank doing the same thing? At least lead acid can be recovered to some extent. I'm not married to either platform, I just want to spend my customers' money on the most reliable solution, and after having both temperature related issues, and failed BMS, lead acid is back. Maybe when my current lead acid installations need to be replaced, LFP will have solved 2 very important issues: > 1) More Robust BMS boards that can be field replaced. > 2) On board heating system for below freezing conditions. > > I think we're close, but definitely not there. > > Also, with all the mention of various UL listings, regulation needs to evolve to differentiate between LiFePO4 and other Li+ chemistries. LiFePO4 is inherently much safer, but we're being forced to comply with all the same regulations as the less stable, more energy dense chemistries. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > On 2/16/2024 8:44 PM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote: >> Howie, >> >> The EG4 18K and the Fortress Envy are both made by the same manufacturer, LuxPower. Google the LXP 12K and it will all make sense. I can’t speak for EG4, but I know that Fortress has progressed from simply white labeling this unit to doing a significant amount of programming and additional integration, specifically with regards to their monitoring platform. >> >> Personally, I have always had a skeptical approach with EG4. The EX line was chintzy at best. Every prospective client I have crossed paths with that has called out EG4 equipment thinks they know more and want it cheaper because they watched a few YouTube videos where unqualified DIY hacks free air conductors. I don’t want to write EG4 off completely, and am interested in their PowerPro battery. But with the ebb and flow of battery manufacturers, I wouldn’t be surprised if they weren’t around in 5 years. I feel differently about Fortress Power and although they have been a little overactive in the inverter market, I do believe that they are well intentioned and that their products and business are solid. >> >> There has been some recent LFP bashing, and respectfully, I will agree to disagree. Early iterations of LFP had frequent issues with BMS and cell failure, but all in all, LFP has been a shining star in off-grid applications. I say this having installed 100+ eVault Max 18.5 in strictly off-grid scenarios. Sure there are phone calls and necessary firmware updates (however never a single BMS failure with the eVault Max), but I’m not having the heartbreaking conversations of “when we came back from vacation our 48v lead acid battery bank was at 15 volts”. I don’t like those phone calls. I also don't like holes in my pants and shirts or calls that CO monitors are alarming because of dead vent fans. I’m not dying on the hill of LFP, but I will say that I am firmly in support of the measurable improvements they have made for my customers. Paired with remote monitoring, the truck rolls a lot less. >> >> Kindly, >> >> Chris >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 4:33 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> The issue I'm having with EG4 specifically and Signature Solar in general is a scattershot approach to UL and NRTL listings. Those listings may not be important to various DIY folks of varying levels of "git-er-done," but listings are critical for my business. Some products they sell are Listed per NEC, some are not, and some EG4 are listed, some are not. I recently contacted Signature Solar regarding their EG4 rack mount ESS modules and did not receive a satisfactory response, unfortunately a new off-grid client had already purchased an entire rack of them before consulting with me. Our county AHJ is very strict. I can't risk recommending or installing a system that would fail inspection. Here in Colorado they often even cross check the altitude ratings on all inverters. (sorry Schneider XW-Pro that I like so much, limit on your spec sheet is 2000m altitude) >> >> Signature Solar provided the usual NRTL stamp for UL 1741SA etc etc on the EG4 rack batteries, then also a UL 9540A testing certificate that they said should be sufficient, and it disturbed me that they did not seem to understand that UL 9540A is NOT a listing - it's a fire-resistance test that an ESS manufacturer can use as a document to help obtain their actual UL9540 listing, and also gain exemptions to spacing and other requirements....but from my understanding it's NOT an actual UL or NRTL listing to UL 9540. When I inquired about that, Signature Solar stopped communicating with me. >> >> I'm pretty sure my understanding of UL 9540 listing vs. 9540A testing is correct, but I would appreciate any input before again gently confronting both AHJs and manufacturers. >> >> Dan Fink >> Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC >> IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation >> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector >> NABCEP PV Associate >> d anbob88 at gmail.com >> 970-672-4342 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Sat Feb 17 15:40:33 2024 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2024 12:40:33 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment In-Reply-To: <2A389686-3ACD-4098-94B6-0B11AFE2473B@gmail.com> References: <5e36175d-4f68-49b2-ae2c-ab69386f3203@solarray.com> <2A389686-3ACD-4098-94B6-0B11AFE2473B@gmail.com> Message-ID: To this point I'm not aware of a lead battery that is compliant to 9540 or 1973... we are still trying to work out the kinks of these UL codes. This what happens when people try to blanket fix a problem with one technology and apply it across the board without a full understanding of the different chemistries that are out there. On Sat, Feb 17, 2024, 12:33 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > A number of people have mentioned strict code compliance. > How are lead batteries dealing with this? > > thanks > jay > > On Feb 17, 2024, at 12:27 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Chris; > > I was definitely moving to the LFP camp for off grid for all the same > reasons you mentioned, but I've just had too much trouble, so I'm heading > back to lead acid for now. I missed the acid burned jeans, its a > "look"..... > > Seriously, you mentioned customers coming back to a lead acid battery at > 16 v; how about a $12k LFP bank doing the same thing? At least lead acid > can be recovered to some extent. I'm not married to either platform, I > just want to spend my customers' money on the most reliable solution, and > after having both temperature related issues, and failed BMS, lead acid is > back. Maybe when my current lead acid installations need to be replaced, > LFP will have solved 2 very important issues: > 1) More Robust BMS boards that can be field replaced. > 2) On board heating system for below freezing conditions. > > I think we're close, but definitely not there. > > Also, with all the mention of various UL listings, regulation needs to > evolve to differentiate between LiFePO4 and other Li+ chemistries. LiFePO4 > is inherently much safer, but we're being forced to comply with all the > same regulations as the less stable, more energy dense chemistries. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > On 2/16/2024 8:44 PM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Howie, > > The EG4 18K and the Fortress Envy are both made by the same manufacturer, > LuxPower. Google the LXP 12K and it will all make sense. I can’t speak for > EG4, but I know that Fortress has progressed from simply white labeling > this unit to doing a significant amount of programming and additional > integration, specifically with regards to their monitoring platform. > > Personally, I have always had a skeptical approach with EG4. The EX line > was chintzy at best. Every prospective client I have crossed paths with > that has called out EG4 equipment thinks they know more and want it cheaper > because they watched a few YouTube videos where unqualified DIY hacks free > air conductors. I don’t want to write EG4 off completely, and am interested > in their PowerPro battery. But with the ebb and flow of battery > manufacturers, I wouldn’t be surprised if they weren’t around in 5 years. I > feel differently about Fortress Power and although they have been a little > overactive in the inverter market, I do believe that they are well > intentioned and that their products and business are solid. > > There has been some recent LFP bashing, and respectfully, I will agree to > disagree. Early iterations of LFP had frequent issues with BMS and cell > failure, but all in all, LFP has been a shining star in off-grid > applications. I say this having installed 100+ eVault Max 18.5 in strictly > off-grid scenarios. Sure there are phone calls and necessary firmware > updates (however never a single BMS failure with the eVault Max), but I’m > not having the heartbreaking conversations of “when we came back from > vacation our 48v lead acid battery bank was at 15 volts”. I don’t like > those phone calls. I also don't like holes in my pants and shirts or calls > that CO monitors are alarming because of dead vent fans. I’m not dying on > the hill of LFP, but I will say that I am firmly in support of the > measurable improvements they have made for my customers. Paired with remote > monitoring, the truck rolls a lot less. > > Kindly, > > Chris > > > > > > > On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 4:33 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> The issue I'm having with EG4 specifically and Signature Solar in general >> is a scattershot approach to UL and NRTL listings. Those listings may not >> be important to various DIY folks of varying levels of "git-er-done," but >> listings are critical for my business. Some products they sell are Listed >> per NEC, some are not, and some EG4 are listed, some are not. I recently >> contacted Signature Solar regarding their EG4 rack mount ESS modules and >> did not receive a satisfactory response, unfortunately a new off-grid >> client had already purchased an entire rack of them before consulting with >> me. Our county AHJ is very strict. I can't risk recommending or installing >> a system that would fail inspection. Here in Colorado they often even cross >> check the altitude ratings on all inverters. (sorry Schneider XW-Pro that I >> like so much, limit on your spec sheet is 2000m altitude) >> >> Signature Solar provided the usual NRTL stamp for UL 1741SA etc etc on >> the EG4 rack batteries, then also a UL 9540A testing certificate that they >> said should be sufficient, and it disturbed me that they did not seem to >> understand that UL 9540A is NOT a listing - it's a fire-resistance test >> that an ESS manufacturer can use as a document to help obtain their actual >> UL9540 listing, and also gain exemptions to spacing and other >> requirements....but from my understanding it's NOT an actual UL or NRTL >> listing to UL 9540. When I inquired about that, Signature Solar stopped >> communicating with me. >> >> I'm pretty sure my understanding of UL 9540 listing vs. 9540A testing is >> correct, but I would appreciate any input before again gently confronting >> both AHJs and manufacturers. >> >> Dan Fink >> Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC >> IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation >> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector >> NABCEP PV Associate >> d anbob88 at gmail.com >> 970-672-4342 >> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sat Feb 17 16:26:05 2024 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2024 14:26:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment In-Reply-To: References: <5e36175d-4f68-49b2-ae2c-ab69386f3203@solarray.com> <2A389686-3ACD-4098-94B6-0B11AFE2473B@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay - Despite the exceptions in NEC 480.3 and 706.5 for lead-acid not needing to be Listed, and the maximum capacity exception for lead-acid in IFC 1206.2.8.3, one of our local AHJs is now insisting that ALL residential ESS, including lead-acid, even off-grid with no utility interconnect, must be UL 9540 listed because they say the latest IRC says so. As you can imagine this limits our design options on the lead-acid side; as far as I can tell only BAE sells such a thing, and it's not intended or proceed for residential off-grid use. Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at 1:41 PM Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > To this point I'm not aware of a lead battery that is compliant to 9540 or > 1973... we are still trying to work out the kinks of these UL codes. > This what happens when people try to blanket fix a problem with one > technology and apply it across the board without a full understanding of > the different chemistries that are out there. > > > > On Sat, Feb 17, 2024, 12:33 PM jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> A number of people have mentioned strict code compliance. >> How are lead batteries dealing with this? >> >> thanks >> jay >> >> On Feb 17, 2024, at 12:27 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Chris; >> >> I was definitely moving to the LFP camp for off grid for all the same >> reasons you mentioned, but I've just had too much trouble, so I'm heading >> back to lead acid for now. I missed the acid burned jeans, its a >> "look"..... >> >> Seriously, you mentioned customers coming back to a lead acid battery at >> 16 v; how about a $12k LFP bank doing the same thing? At least lead acid >> can be recovered to some extent. I'm not married to either platform, I >> just want to spend my customers' money on the most reliable solution, and >> after having both temperature related issues, and failed BMS, lead acid is >> back. Maybe when my current lead acid installations need to be replaced, >> LFP will have solved 2 very important issues: >> 1) More Robust BMS boards that can be field replaced. >> 2) On board heating system for below freezing conditions. >> >> I think we're close, but definitely not there. >> >> Also, with all the mention of various UL listings, regulation needs to >> evolve to differentiate between LiFePO4 and other Li+ chemistries. LiFePO4 >> is inherently much safer, but we're being forced to comply with all the >> same regulations as the less stable, more energy dense chemistries. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> On 2/16/2024 8:44 PM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Howie, >> >> The EG4 18K and the Fortress Envy are both made by the same manufacturer, >> LuxPower. Google the LXP 12K and it will all make sense. I can’t speak for >> EG4, but I know that Fortress has progressed from simply white labeling >> this unit to doing a significant amount of programming and additional >> integration, specifically with regards to their monitoring platform. >> >> Personally, I have always had a skeptical approach with EG4. The EX line >> was chintzy at best. Every prospective client I have crossed paths with >> that has called out EG4 equipment thinks they know more and want it cheaper >> because they watched a few YouTube videos where unqualified DIY hacks free >> air conductors. I don’t want to write EG4 off completely, and am interested >> in their PowerPro battery. But with the ebb and flow of battery >> manufacturers, I wouldn’t be surprised if they weren’t around in 5 years. I >> feel differently about Fortress Power and although they have been a little >> overactive in the inverter market, I do believe that they are well >> intentioned and that their products and business are solid. >> >> There has been some recent LFP bashing, and respectfully, I will agree to >> disagree. Early iterations of LFP had frequent issues with BMS and cell >> failure, but all in all, LFP has been a shining star in off-grid >> applications. I say this having installed 100+ eVault Max 18.5 in strictly >> off-grid scenarios. Sure there are phone calls and necessary firmware >> updates (however never a single BMS failure with the eVault Max), but I’m >> not having the heartbreaking conversations of “when we came back from >> vacation our 48v lead acid battery bank was at 15 volts”. I don’t like >> those phone calls. I also don't like holes in my pants and shirts or calls >> that CO monitors are alarming because of dead vent fans. I’m not dying on >> the hill of LFP, but I will say that I am firmly in support of the >> measurable improvements they have made for my customers. Paired with remote >> monitoring, the truck rolls a lot less. >> >> Kindly, >> >> Chris >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 4:33 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> The issue I'm having with EG4 specifically and Signature Solar in >>> general is a scattershot approach to UL and NRTL listings. Those listings >>> may not be important to various DIY folks of varying levels of >>> "git-er-done," but listings are critical for my business. Some products >>> they sell are Listed per NEC, some are not, and some EG4 are listed, some >>> are not. I recently contacted Signature Solar regarding their EG4 rack >>> mount ESS modules and did not receive a satisfactory response, >>> unfortunately a new off-grid client had already purchased an entire rack of >>> them before consulting with me. Our county AHJ is very strict. I can't risk >>> recommending or installing a system that would fail inspection. Here in >>> Colorado they often even cross check the altitude ratings on all inverters. >>> (sorry Schneider XW-Pro that I like so much, limit on your spec sheet is >>> 2000m altitude) >>> >>> Signature Solar provided the usual NRTL stamp for UL 1741SA etc etc on >>> the EG4 rack batteries, then also a UL 9540A testing certificate that they >>> said should be sufficient, and it disturbed me that they did not seem to >>> understand that UL 9540A is NOT a listing - it's a fire-resistance test >>> that an ESS manufacturer can use as a document to help obtain their actual >>> UL9540 listing, and also gain exemptions to spacing and other >>> requirements....but from my understanding it's NOT an actual UL or NRTL >>> listing to UL 9540. When I inquired about that, Signature Solar stopped >>> communicating with me. >>> >>> I'm pretty sure my understanding of UL 9540 listing vs. 9540A testing is >>> correct, but I would appreciate any input before again gently confronting >>> both AHJs and manufacturers. >>> >>> Dan Fink >>> Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC >>> IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation >>> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector >>> NABCEP PV Associate >>> d anbob88 at gmail.com >>> 970-672-4342 >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. 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URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Feb 17 17:48:47 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2024 15:48:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment In-Reply-To: References: <5e36175d-4f68-49b2-ae2c-ab69386f3203@solarray.com> <2A389686-3ACD-4098-94B6-0B11AFE2473B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8ea30e7e-4142-4fb2-adb8-9e6acce7c0ec@solarray.com> I would challenge that inspector's assumption.  It starts becoming precedent if you don't.  I have challenged many rulings, and have lived to tell the tale.  There's a process and you just politely go through the process.  Often just mentioning that I will challenge a particular assumption like "lead acid batteries aren't allowed", will get them to back down on the spot.  Getting solar trade organizations on your side to help with the process can add much needed weight. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 2/17/2024 2:26 PM, Dan Fink via RE-wrenches wrote: > Jay - Despite the exceptions in NEC 480.3 and 706.5 for lead-acid not > needing to be Listed, and the maximum capacity exception for lead-acid > in IFC 1206.2.8.3, one of our local AHJs is now insisting that ALL > residential ESS, including lead-acid, even off-grid with no utility > interconnect, must be UL 9540 listed because they say the latest IRC > says so. > > As you can imagine this limits our design options on the lead-acid > side; as far as I can tell only BAE sells such a thing, and it's not > intended or proceed for residential off-grid use. > > Dan Fink > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > NABCEP PV Associate > d anbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > > On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at 1:41 PM Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > To this point I'm not aware of a lead battery that is compliant to > 9540 or 1973...    we are still trying to work out the kinks of > these UL codes.   This what happens when people try to blanket fix > a problem with one technology and apply it across the board > without a full understanding of the different chemistries that are > out there. > > > > On Sat, Feb 17, 2024, 12:33 PM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > A number of people have mentioned strict code compliance. > How are lead batteries dealing with this? > > thanks > jay > >> On Feb 17, 2024, at 12:27 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> Chris; >> >> I was definitely moving to the LFP camp for off grid for all >> the same reasons you mentioned, but I've just had too much >> trouble, so I'm heading back to lead acid for now.  I missed >> the acid burned jeans, its a "look"..... >> >> Seriously, you mentioned customers coming back to a lead acid >> battery at 16 v; how about a $12k LFP bank doing the same >> thing? At least lead acid can be recovered to some extent.  >> I'm not married to either platform, I just want to spend my >> customers' money on the most reliable solution, and after >> having both temperature related issues, and failed BMS, lead >> acid is back.  Maybe when my current lead acid installations >> need to be replaced, LFP will have solved 2 very important >> issues: >> 1) More Robust BMS boards that can be field replaced. >> 2) On board heating system for below freezing conditions. >> >> I think we're close, but definitely not there. >> >> Also, with all the mention of various UL listings, regulation >> needs to evolve to differentiate between LiFePO4 and other >> Li+ chemistries.  LiFePO4 is inherently much safer, but we're >> being forced to comply with all the same regulations as the >> less stable, more energy dense chemistries. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> >> On 2/16/2024 8:44 PM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> Howie, >>> >>> The EG4 18K and the Fortress Envy are both made by the same >>> manufacturer, LuxPower. Google the LXP 12K and it will all >>> make sense.  I can’t speak for EG4, but I know that Fortress >>> has progressed from simply white labeling this unit to doing >>> a significant amount of programming and additional >>> integration, specifically with regards to their monitoring >>> platform. >>> >>> Personally, I have always had a skeptical approach with EG4. >>> The EX line was chintzy at best. Every prospective client I >>> have crossed paths with that has called out EG4 equipment >>> thinks they know more and want it cheaper because they >>> watched a few YouTube videos where unqualified DIY hacks >>> free air conductors. I don’t want to write EG4 off >>> completely, and am interested in their PowerPro battery. But >>> with the ebb and flow of battery manufacturers, I wouldn’t >>> be surprised if they weren’t around in 5 years. I feel >>> differently about Fortress Power and although they have been >>> a little overactive in the inverter market, I do believe >>> that they are well intentioned and that their products and >>> business are solid. >>> >>> There has been some recent LFP bashing, and respectfully, I >>> will agree to disagree. Early iterations of LFP had frequent >>> issues with BMS and cell failure, but all in all, LFP has >>> been a shining star in off-grid applications. I say this >>> having installed 100+ eVault Max 18.5 in strictly off-grid >>> scenarios. Sure there are phone calls and necessary firmware >>> updates (however never a single BMS failure with the eVault >>> Max), but I’m not having the heartbreaking conversations of >>> “when we came back from vacation our 48v lead acid battery >>> bank was at 15 volts”. I don’t like those phone calls. I >>> also don't like holes in my pants and shirts or calls that >>> CO monitors are alarming because of dead vent fans. I’m not >>> dying on the hill of LFP, but I will say that I am firmly in >>> support of the measurable improvements they have made for my >>> customers. Paired with remote monitoring, the truck rolls a >>> lot less. >>> >>> Kindly, >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 4:33 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>> The issue I'm having with EG4 specifically and Signature >>> Solar in general is a scattershot approach to UL and >>> NRTL listings. Those listings may not be important to >>> various DIY folks of varying levels of "git-er-done," >>> but listings are critical for my business. Some products >>> they sell are Listed per NEC, some are not, and some EG4 >>> are listed, some are not. I recently contacted Signature >>> Solar regarding their EG4 rack mount ESS modules and did >>> not receive a satisfactory response, unfortunately a new >>> off-grid client had already purchased an entire rack of >>> them before consulting with me. Our county AHJ is very >>> strict. I can't risk recommending or installing a system >>> that would fail inspection. Here in Colorado they often >>> even cross check the altitude ratings on all inverters. >>> (sorry Schneider XW-Pro that I like so much, limit on >>> your spec sheet is 2000m altitude) >>> >>> Signature Solar provided the usual NRTL stamp for UL >>> 1741SA etc etc on the EG4 rack batteries, then also a UL >>> 9540A testing certificate that they said should be >>> sufficient, and it disturbed me that they did not seem >>> to understand that UL 9540A is NOT a listing - it's a >>> fire-resistance test that an ESS manufacturer can use as >>> a document to help obtain their actual UL9540 listing, >>> and also gain exemptions to spacing and other >>> requirements....but from my understanding it's NOT an >>> actual UL or NRTL listing to UL 9540. When I inquired >>> about that, Signature Solar stopped communicating with me. >>> >>> I'm pretty sure my understanding of UL 9540 listing vs. >>> 9540A testing is correct, but I would appreciate any >>> input before again gently confronting both AHJs and >>> manufacturers. >>> >>> Dan Fink >>> Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC >>> IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation >>> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector >>> NABCEP PV Associate >>> d >>> anbob88 at gmail.com >>> 970-672-4342 >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one >>> doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >> work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't > work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Sun Feb 18 12:34:09 2024 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2024 12:34:09 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment In-Reply-To: References: <24dad5c5f2519db4c4e99e2ad203ba13@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: All, Thanks for the thoughts and feedback about EG4 and Lithium in general. I'm disappointed to see the overall negative feedback about EG4, but not overly surprised. I was hoping to hear from folks who previously had decent things to say about them (E.G. Peter Giroux, Carl Hansen) would chime in with updated reviews. I have been seduced into using relatively new products that promised to improve upon "sliced bread" before, only to more times than not, end up frustrated with wasted time and reputation. For our work in VT, LiFePO4 batteries, so far, are enough of an improvement over lead acid (particularly for Off-Grid), that if the client is willing to spend the money, I encourage them to go that route. There are certainly plenty of on going issues with many of these relatively new products, some larger headaches than I'm happy about. On balance however, my calculus leans heavily toward advantage Lithium. We can make work-arounds for most of the immediate problems, and their documentable efficiency and low maintenance (along with fewer holes in my clothes) win the argument for me. I have yet to see a BMS failure, but I'm sure I'll have the chance to solve that problem. I'm also annoyed that the inverter sales teams have chosen to market the new hybrid inverters as compatible with Lead-Acid, because as has been noted, as they currently are configured, Lead-Acid management has been a mostly a slipshod afterthought. There are several other areas they will need to focus before I would deem the ready-for-prime-time. However, as best I can tell, there is intense competition for market share right now, so if enough of the installer base pushes for these necessary changes, they will do there best to accommodate us. The areas I see needing significant improvements: - Rock solid BMS and and battery-inverter communication (standard industry wide protocols?) - True Lead-Acid programming capabilities - More finesse with the AGS controls And, again, if anyone has recent positive reports about EG4 equipment, I'd be happy to hear about them on or off list. Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at 1:16 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Drake: > > > > I prefer the UnigyII VRLA batteries. Full river 2 volt L-16s are pretty > good and they allow one string configuration in larger AH settings. > > > > I agree that as features grow so does complexity. However there is no > substitute for good remote monitoring and control. I can understand much > better the operation of systems with easy access to historic data and I > save a butt-load of driving. I wish the Outback and Sunny Island files > could be obtained remotely for better analysis. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Saturday, February 17, 2024 9:43 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment > > > > I fully agree that off grid solar has taken a major downturn. Once the > equipment became software based, the reliability dropped. Sure, there are > nice features available with these cyber enhanced systems, but the cost in > reliability makes being energy independent off the grid hard to accomplish. > > There are good reports on Samlex products. Has anyone tried their new > 120/240 split phase units? Are they stack-able yet? > > As far as batteries go, I'm pretty much in the Lead Head club, especially > for off grid. That being said, lead acid batteries, especially AGMs have > gotten really expensive and it seems the quality isn't what it used to be. > > What is the best AGM battery these days? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > > > --- > > > > > > On 2024-02-16 17:02, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises from their dealer > oriented support department that we could expect better service from them. > We had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple months ago after only a few months. > Lots and lots of communications with Signature and we still don't have a > BMS or replacement battery. It's been a shit show with them. I think we are > going to remove them and install 3rd party BMS's and find some use for > them. Maybe donate them. We've only had luck with Schneider/Discover > pairings in closed loop. A large system we did with Sol-Arks never really > worked in Closed loop, despite Discover coming to the site. Most likely > it's a Sol-Ark issue, but we've reached Sol-Arks technical expertise > limits. Even with Schneider/AES, there have been some issues that are > causing me to re-consider Li for offgrid. I just had a conversation this > morning with a long time off-grid pro and he said the same thing. It used > to be, we'd install a wet lead acid bank and then ten years would pass > before hearing from the client when it was time for another bank. Sometimes > fifteen years. Our call backs with systems over the last ten years, first > with a decline in equipment quality and then the switch to Li are costing > us too much money and causing a lot of heartburn for our clients. Rant Over > > > > On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 12:57 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG4 inverters and > batteries. The comments have been mostly positive. I have stayed away from > EG4 until now in part, for the reason the Michael Morningstar suggested > last June - that is, they seemed very oriented to the DIY market and not > real serious contenders in the lasting marketplace. However, I was at RE+ > Boston this week and was quite surprised to see that the EG4 18k inverter > is, for all I could tell, identical to the Fortress Envy 12k, in both > physical layout as well as menu structure. I have very limited experience > with the Envy (having just installed my 1st one last week, in order to > compare it to the Sol-Ark 15). I don't have any thoughts about it yet, > except that the font on the screen is quite small and the opening screen is > not as intuitive as the Sol-Ark, but that might just take familiarizing > myself more to the Envy (and/or the EG4). > > > > My question is, for folks who have had either the Envy or the EG4 > inverters installed for a decent period of time, what is your current take > on their functionality, durability, and for the EG4, the quality of > support? Also, what experience have folks had similarly with the EG4 LLI > batteries? I'm not unhappy with the Sol-Ark or in general the Fortress > eVault Max battery, but there are some attractive things about the Envy and > potentially the EG4 18k, and the price point and seemingly smart > configuration of the EG4 LLI batteries are certainly eye-catching. > > > > I'm also currently starting to lean toward using Lithium batteries and > inverters from the same manufacturer, as I'm growing weary of the > mismatching firmware updates that are causing somewhat frequent issues > between the 2 components. Although the inverter/battery integrated units > (i.e. Sonen, Tesla, etc.) don't seem ideal, since the market is so volatile > at the moment. If one component fails, I'd like the option to replace it > with a different brand without having to replace the other component as > well. Using the same manu doesn't necessarily cut down the problems, but it > certainly will help in the troubleshooting process by hopefully having less > of the "not my problem" or "we haven't seen that problem" responses from > tech support. > > > > I really don't like making forays into bleeding-edge technologies, so I'm > hoping to gain some experienced insight. > > > > Thanks, > > Howie Michaelson > > Sun Catcher > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > > > > Michael Morningstar > > > > Morningstar Electric > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarwks at cybermesa.com Sun Feb 18 15:15:09 2024 From: solarwks at cybermesa.com (Carl Hansen) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2024 13:15:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment In-Reply-To: References: <24dad5c5f2519db4c4e99e2ad203ba13@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Hi Howie,  I've continued to install EG4 LL V2 batteries for clients, I originally purchased a bank of EG4 V1's for my own system to experiment with before recommending them to clients, I quickly ended up with 7 clients with them and all the installs are performing without issues, these are all OFF GRID without comms between the battery and inverter, I'm keeping them above freezing with insulated battery box's and heating pads when necessary, Cooling may be more of an issue in some outdoor shed installs because of summer heat in central N.M.  One thing that came up that had me concerned was Signature solar Techs started recommending 3 or 4 deep discharge cycles, down to 20% SOC when commissioning the batteries, this was so that the BMS could learn what the normal operating range would be for the battery as to prevent early low voltage shut down events, I thought this was going to be too burdensome for off grid clients or for me,  a few clients didn't mind doing that commissioning recommendation but most haven't done it and there hasn't been any issues.  The EG4 LL V2 has a ten year prorated warranty, it has UL ratings, it has fire suppression pads in them that will melt down on top of the battery at high temps if they are mounted in a flat orientation, I have a few clients with the EG4 rack cabinet but most are mounted face up in the original insulated L16 or Surrette industrial cell battery box's, Signature solar has said this orientation will not void the warranty or effect operation of the battery.   Carl Hansen   Hansen&Sun Electric  505 470-0770 On 2024-02-18 10:34 AM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote: > > All, > > Thanks for the thoughts and feedback about EG4 and Lithium in general. > I'm disappointed to see the overall negative feedback about EG4, but > not overly surprised. I was hoping to hear from folks who previously > had decent things to say about them (E.G. Peter Giroux, Carl Hansen) > would chime in with updated reviews. I have been seduced into using > relatively new products that promised to improve upon "sliced bread" > before, only to more times than not, end up fruI'strated with wasted > time and reputation. > > For our work in VT, LiFePO4 batteries, so far, are enough of an > improvement over lead acid (particularly for Off-Grid), that if the > client is willing to spend the money, I encourage them to go that > route.  There are certainly plenty of on going issues with many of > these relatively new products, some larger headaches than I'm happy > about. On balance however, my calculus leans heavily toward advantage > Lithium. We can make work-arounds for most of the immediate problems, > and their documentable efficiency and low maintenance (along with > fewer holes in my clothes) win the argument for me. > > I have yet to see a BMS failure, but I'm sure I'll have the chance to > solve that problem. I'm also annoyed that the inverter sales teams > have chosen to market the new hybrid inverters as compatible with > Lead-Acid, because as has been noted, as they currently are > configured, Lead-Acid management has been a mostly a slipshod > afterthought. There are several other areas they will need to focus > before I would deem the ready-for-prime-time. However, as best I can > tell, there is intense competition for market share right now, so if > enough of the installer base pushes for these necessary changes, they > will do there best to accommodate us. > > The areas I see needing significant improvements: > > * Rock solid BMS and and battery-inverter communication (standard > industry wide protocols?) > * True Lead-Acid programming capabilities > * More finesse with the AGS controls > > And, again, if anyone has recent positive reports about EG4 equipment, > I'd be happy to hear about them on or off list. > > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > > On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at 1:16 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Drake: > > I prefer the UnigyII VRLA batteries.  Full river 2 volt L-16s are > pretty good and they allow one string configuration in larger AH > settings. > > I agree that as features grow so does complexity. However there is > no substitute for good remote monitoring and control.  I can > understand much better the operation of systems with easy access > to historic data and I save a butt-load of driving.  I wish the > Outback and Sunny Island files could be obtained remotely for > better analysis. > > William > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of > *Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Saturday, February 17, 2024 9:43 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment > > I fully agree that off grid solar has taken a major downturn. Once > the equipment became software based, the reliability dropped. > Sure, there are nice features available with these cyber enhanced > systems, but the cost in reliability makes being energy > independent off the grid hard to accomplish. > > There are good reports on Samlex products. Has anyone tried their > new 120/240 split phase units? Are they stack-able yet? > > As far as batteries go, I'm pretty much in the Lead Head club, > especially for off grid. That being said, lead acid batteries, > especially AGMs have gotten really expensive and it seems the > quality isn't what it used to be. > > What is the best AGM battery these days? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > --- > > On 2024-02-16 17:02, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises from > their dealer oriented support department that we could expect > better service from them. We had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple > months ago after only a few months. Lots and lots of > communications with Signature and we still don't have a BMS or > replacement battery. It's been a shit show with them. I think > we are going to remove them and install 3rd party BMS's and > find some use for them. Maybe donate them. We've only had luck > with Schneider/Discover pairings in closed loop. A large > system we did with Sol-Arks never really worked in Closed > loop, despite Discover coming to the site. Most likely it's a > Sol-Ark issue, but we've reached Sol-Arks technical expertise > limits. Even with Schneider/AES, there have been some issues > that are causing me to re-consider Li for offgrid. I just had > a conversation this morning with a long time off-grid pro and > he said the same thing. It used to be, we'd install a wet lead > acid bank and then ten years would pass before hearing from > the client when it was time for another bank. Sometimes > fifteen years. Our call backs with systems over the last ten > years, first with a decline in equipment quality and then the > switch to Li are costing us too much money and causing a lot > of heartburn for our clients. Rant Over > > On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 12:57 PM Howie Michaelson via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi All, > > I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG4 > inverters and batteries. The comments have been mostly > positive.  I have stayed away from EG4 until now in part, > for the reason the Michael Morningstar suggested last June > - that is, they seemed very oriented to the DIY market and > not real serious contenders in the lasting marketplace. > However, I was at RE+ Boston this week and was quite > surprised to see that the EG4 18k inverter is, for all I > could tell, identical to the Fortress Envy 12k, in both > physical layout as well as menu structure. I have very > limited experience with the Envy (having just installed my > 1st one last week, in order to compare it to the Sol-Ark > 15). I don't have any thoughts about it yet, except that > the font on the screen is quite small and the opening > screen is not as intuitive as the Sol-Ark, but that might > just take familiarizing myself more to the Envy (and/or > the EG4). > > My question is, for folks who have had either the Envy or > the EG4 inverters installed for a decent period of time, > what is your current take on their functionality, > durability, and for the EG4, the quality of support? Also, > what experience have folks had similarly with the EG4 LLI > batteries? I'm not unhappy with the Sol-Ark or in general > the Fortress eVault Max battery, but there are some > attractive things about the Envy and potentially the EG4 > 18k, and the price point and seemingly smart configuration > of the EG4 LLI batteries are certainly eye-catching. > > I'm also currently starting to lean toward using Lithium > batteries and inverters from the same manufacturer, as I'm > growing weary of the mismatching firmware updates that are > causing somewhat frequent issues between the 2 components. > Although the inverter/battery integrated units (i.e. > Sonen, Tesla, etc.) don't seem ideal, since the market is > so volatile at the moment. If one component fails, I'd > like the option to replace it with a different brand > without having to replace the other component as well. > Using the same manu doesn't necessarily cut down the > problems, but it certainly will help in the > troubleshooting process by hopefully having less of the > "not my problem" or "we haven't seen that problem" > responses from tech support. > > I really don't like making forays into bleeding-edge > technologies, so I'm hoping to gain some experienced insight. > > Thanks, > > Howie Michaelson > > Sun Catcher > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one > doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > Morningstar Electric > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't > work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Sun Feb 18 15:58:09 2024 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2024 15:58:09 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment In-Reply-To: References: <24dad5c5f2519db4c4e99e2ad203ba13@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Carl, Thanks for the update. That is encouraging! My other major concern at this point is all the very negative comments to be found on the web about Signature's horrible, very bad, no good Tech Support and service. It is true that the internet is littered with disgruntled comments about anything and everything, but many of these stories (including ones on the wrenches) are fairly specific and disheartening. I assume by the fact that you continue to install their batteries, that that has not been your experience? Howie Michaelson On Sun, Feb 18, 2024 at 3:16 PM Carl Hansen via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Howie, > > I've continued to install EG4 LL V2 batteries for clients, I originally > purchased a bank of EG4 V1's for my own system to experiment with before > recommending them to clients, I quickly ended up with 7 clients with them > and all the installs are performing without issues, these are all OFF GRID > without comms between the battery and inverter, I'm keeping them above > freezing with insulated battery box's and heating pads when necessary, > Cooling may be more of an issue in some outdoor shed installs because of > summer heat in central N.M. > > One thing that came up that had me concerned was Signature solar Techs > started recommending 3 or 4 deep discharge cycles, down to 20% SOC when > commissioning the batteries, this was so that the BMS could learn what the > normal operating range would be for the battery as to prevent early low > voltage shut down events, I thought this was going to be too burdensome for > off grid clients or for me, a few clients didn't mind doing that > commissioning recommendation but most haven't done it and there hasn't been > any issues. > > The EG4 LL V2 has a ten year prorated warranty, it has UL ratings, it has > fire suppression pads in them that will melt down on top of the battery at > high temps if they are mounted in a flat orientation, I have a few clients > with the EG4 rack cabinet but most are mounted face up in the original > insulated L16 or Surrette industrial cell battery box's, Signature solar > has said this orientation will not void the warranty or effect operation of > the battery. > > Carl Hansen > > Hansen&Sun Electric 505 470-0770 > > > On 2024-02-18 10:34 AM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote: > > > All, > > Thanks for the thoughts and feedback about EG4 and Lithium in general. I'm > disappointed to see the overall negative feedback about EG4, but not overly > surprised. I was hoping to hear from folks who previously had decent things > to say about them (E.G. Peter Giroux, Carl Hansen) would chime in with > updated reviews. I have been seduced into using relatively new products > that promised to improve upon "sliced bread" before, only to more times > than not, end up fruI'strated with wasted time and reputation. > > For our work in VT, LiFePO4 batteries, so far, are enough of an > improvement over lead acid (particularly for Off-Grid), that if the client > is willing to spend the money, I encourage them to go that route. There > are certainly plenty of on going issues with many of these relatively new > products, some larger headaches than I'm happy about. On balance however, > my calculus leans heavily toward advantage Lithium. We can make > work-arounds for most of the immediate problems, and their documentable > efficiency and low maintenance (along with fewer holes in my clothes) win > the argument for me. > > I have yet to see a BMS failure, but I'm sure I'll have the chance to > solve that problem. I'm also annoyed that the inverter sales teams have > chosen to market the new hybrid inverters as compatible with Lead-Acid, > because as has been noted, as they currently are configured, Lead-Acid > management has been a mostly a slipshod afterthought. There are several > other areas they will need to focus before I would deem the > ready-for-prime-time. However, as best I can tell, there is intense > competition for market share right now, so if enough of the installer base > pushes for these necessary changes, they will do there best to accommodate > us. > > The areas I see needing significant improvements: > > - Rock solid BMS and and battery-inverter communication (standard > industry wide protocols?) > - True Lead-Acid programming capabilities > - More finesse with the AGS controls > > And, again, if anyone has recent positive reports about EG4 equipment, I'd > be happy to hear about them on or off list. > > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > > On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at 1:16 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Drake: >> >> >> >> I prefer the UnigyII VRLA batteries. Full river 2 volt L-16s are pretty >> good and they allow one string configuration in larger AH settings. >> >> >> >> I agree that as features grow so does complexity. However there is no >> substitute for good remote monitoring and control. I can understand much >> better the operation of systems with easy access to historic data and I >> save a butt-load of driving. I wish the Outback and Sunny Island files >> could be obtained remotely for better analysis. >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Saturday, February 17, 2024 9:43 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment >> >> >> >> I fully agree that off grid solar has taken a major downturn. Once the >> equipment became software based, the reliability dropped. Sure, there are >> nice features available with these cyber enhanced systems, but the cost in >> reliability makes being energy independent off the grid hard to accomplish. >> >> There are good reports on Samlex products. Has anyone tried their new >> 120/240 split phase units? Are they stack-able yet? >> >> As far as batteries go, I'm pretty much in the Lead Head club, especially >> for off grid. That being said, lead acid batteries, especially AGMs have >> gotten really expensive and it seems the quality isn't what it used to be. >> >> What is the best AGM battery these days? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> >> >> --- >> >> >> >> >> >> On 2024-02-16 17:02, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises from their dealer >> oriented support department that we could expect better service from them. >> We had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple months ago after only a few months. >> Lots and lots of communications with Signature and we still don't have a >> BMS or replacement battery. It's been a shit show with them. I think we are >> going to remove them and install 3rd party BMS's and find some use for >> them. Maybe donate them. We've only had luck with Schneider/Discover >> pairings in closed loop. A large system we did with Sol-Arks never really >> worked in Closed loop, despite Discover coming to the site. Most likely >> it's a Sol-Ark issue, but we've reached Sol-Arks technical expertise >> limits. Even with Schneider/AES, there have been some issues that are >> causing me to re-consider Li for offgrid. I just had a conversation this >> morning with a long time off-grid pro and he said the same thing. It used >> to be, we'd install a wet lead acid bank and then ten years would pass >> before hearing from the client when it was time for another bank. Sometimes >> fifteen years. Our call backs with systems over the last ten years, first >> with a decline in equipment quality and then the switch to Li are costing >> us too much money and causing a lot of heartburn for our clients. Rant Over >> >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 12:57 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> >> >> >> I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG4 inverters and >> batteries. The comments have been mostly positive. I have stayed away from >> EG4 until now in part, for the reason the Michael Morningstar suggested >> last June - that is, they seemed very oriented to the DIY market and not >> real serious contenders in the lasting marketplace. However, I was at RE+ >> Boston this week and was quite surprised to see that the EG4 18k inverter >> is, for all I could tell, identical to the Fortress Envy 12k, in both >> physical layout as well as menu structure. I have very limited experience >> with the Envy (having just installed my 1st one last week, in order to >> compare it to the Sol-Ark 15). I don't have any thoughts about it yet, >> except that the font on the screen is quite small and the opening screen is >> not as intuitive as the Sol-Ark, but that might just take familiarizing >> myself more to the Envy (and/or the EG4). >> >> >> >> My question is, for folks who have had either the Envy or the EG4 >> inverters installed for a decent period of time, what is your current take >> on their functionality, durability, and for the EG4, the quality of >> support? Also, what experience have folks had similarly with the EG4 LLI >> batteries? I'm not unhappy with the Sol-Ark or in general the Fortress >> eVault Max battery, but there are some attractive things about the Envy and >> potentially the EG4 18k, and the price point and seemingly smart >> configuration of the EG4 LLI batteries are certainly eye-catching. >> >> >> >> I'm also currently starting to lean toward using Lithium batteries and >> inverters from the same manufacturer, as I'm growing weary of the >> mismatching firmware updates that are causing somewhat frequent issues >> between the 2 components. Although the inverter/battery integrated units >> (i.e. Sonen, Tesla, etc.) don't seem ideal, since the market is so volatile >> at the moment. If one component fails, I'd like the option to replace it >> with a different brand without having to replace the other component as >> well. Using the same manu doesn't necessarily cut down the problems, but it >> certainly will help in the troubleshooting process by hopefully having less >> of the "not my problem" or "we haven't seen that problem" responses from >> tech support. >> >> >> >> I really don't like making forays into bleeding-edge technologies, so I'm >> hoping to gain some experienced insight. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Howie Michaelson >> >> Sun Catcher >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Michael Morningstar >> >> >> >> Morningstar Electric >> >> PO Box 1494 >> >> Mount Shasta, CA 96067 >> >> 530-921-0560 >> >> mjmorningstar at gmail.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarwks at cybermesa.com Sun Feb 18 17:23:16 2024 From: solarwks at cybermesa.com (Carl Hansen) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2024 15:23:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment In-Reply-To: References: <24dad5c5f2519db4c4e99e2ad203ba13@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Howie,   Signature Solar gives there dealers a Tech email address and they are prompt to return communications, I've had several phone communications with them also that mostly went well, a year ago I didn't always get techs with a lot of experience and were less than helpful. I haven't had any failures of any kind yet, they tell me the BMS can be replaced in the field and I'm disappointed there are Wrenches reporting warranty issues.  I've also worked with the Trophy Battery, they use high quality Eve Cells, when you call the number on the website the owner and designer of the battery answers the phone, Dan Keaton is great at answering questions, the Trophy website has extensive lithium battery information and battery manuals. The battery comes with a 10 year non-prorated warranty and the BMS is replaceable in the field.  Carl Hansen On 2024-02-18 1:58 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote: > Carl, > Thanks for the update. That is encouraging! > My other major concern at this point is all the very negative comments > to be found on the web about Signature's horrible, very bad, no good > Tech Support and service.  It is true that the internet is littered > with disgruntled comments about anything and everything, but many of > these stories (including ones on the wrenches) are fairly specific and > disheartening.  I assume by the fact that you continue to install > their batteries, that that has not been your experience? > > Howie Michaelson > > > On Sun, Feb 18, 2024 at 3:16 PM Carl Hansen via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi Howie, > >  I've continued to install EG4 LL V2 batteries for clients, I > originally purchased a bank of EG4 V1's for my own system to > experiment with before recommending them to clients, I quickly > ended up with 7 clients with them and all the installs are > performing without issues, these are all OFF GRID without comms > between the battery and inverter, I'm keeping them above freezing > with insulated battery box's and heating pads when necessary, > Cooling may be more of an issue in some outdoor shed installs > because of summer heat in central N.M. > >  One thing that came up that had me concerned was Signature solar > Techs started recommending 3 or 4 deep discharge cycles, down to > 20% SOC when commissioning the batteries, this was so that the BMS > could learn what the normal operating range would be for the > battery as to prevent early low voltage shut down events, I > thought this was going to be too burdensome for off grid clients > or for me,  a few clients didn't mind doing that commissioning > recommendation but most haven't done it and there hasn't been any > issues. > >  The EG4 LL V2 has a ten year prorated warranty, it has UL > ratings, it has fire suppression pads in them that will melt down > on top of the battery at high temps if they are mounted in a flat > orientation, I have a few clients with the EG4 rack cabinet but > most are mounted face up in the original insulated L16 or Surrette > industrial cell battery box's, Signature solar has said this > orientation will not void the warranty or effect operation of the > battery. > >   Carl Hansen > >   Hansen&Sun Electric  505 470-0770 > > > On 2024-02-18 10:34 AM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> All, >> >> Thanks for the thoughts and feedback about EG4 and Lithium in >> general. I'm disappointed to see the overall negative feedback >> about EG4, but not overly surprised. I was hoping to hear from >> folks who previously had decent things to say about them (E.G. >> Peter Giroux, Carl Hansen) would chime in with updated reviews. I >> have been seduced into using relatively new products that >> promised to improve upon "sliced bread" before, only to more >> times than not, end up fruI'strated with wasted time and reputation. >> >> For our work in VT, LiFePO4 batteries, so far, are enough of an >> improvement over lead acid (particularly for Off-Grid), that if >> the client is willing to spend the money, I encourage them to go >> that route.  There are certainly plenty of on going issues with >> many of these relatively new products, some larger headaches than >> I'm happy about. On balance however, my calculus leans heavily >> toward advantage Lithium. We can make work-arounds for most of >> the immediate problems, and their documentable efficiency and low >> maintenance (along with fewer holes in my clothes) win the >> argument for me. >> >> I have yet to see a BMS failure, but I'm sure I'll have the >> chance to solve that problem. I'm also annoyed that the inverter >> sales teams have chosen to market the new hybrid inverters as >> compatible with Lead-Acid, because as has been noted, as they >> currently are configured, Lead-Acid management has been a mostly >> a slipshod afterthought. There are several other areas they will >> need to focus before I would deem the ready-for-prime-time. >> However, as best I can tell, there is intense competition for >> market share right now, so if enough of the installer base pushes >> for these necessary changes, they will do there best to >> accommodate us. >> >> The areas I see needing significant improvements: >> >> * Rock solid BMS and and battery-inverter communication >> (standard industry wide protocols?) >> * True Lead-Acid programming capabilities >> * More finesse with the AGS controls >> >> And, again, if anyone has recent positive reports about EG4 >> equipment, I'd be happy to hear about them on or off list. >> >> Howie Michaelson >> Sun Catcher >> >> On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at 1:16 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> Drake: >> >> I prefer the UnigyII VRLA batteries.  Full river 2 volt L-16s >> are pretty good and they allow one string configuration in >> larger AH settings. >> >> I agree that as features grow so does complexity.  However >> there is no substitute for good remote monitoring and >> control.  I can understand much better the operation of >> systems with easy access to historic data and I save a >> butt-load of driving.  I wish the Outback and Sunny Island >> files could be obtained remotely for better analysis. >> >> William >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> *From:*RE-wrenches >> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf >> Of *Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Saturday, February 17, 2024 9:43 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment >> >> I fully agree that off grid solar has taken a major downturn. >> Once the equipment became software based, the reliability >> dropped. Sure, there are nice features available with these >> cyber enhanced systems, but the cost in reliability makes >> being energy independent off the grid hard to accomplish. >> >> There are good reports on Samlex products. Has anyone tried >> their new 120/240 split phase units? Are they stack-able yet? >> >> As far as batteries go, I'm pretty much in the Lead Head >> club, especially for off grid. That being said, lead acid >> batteries, especially AGMs have gotten really expensive and >> it seems the quality isn't what it used to be. >> >> What is the best AGM battery these days? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> --- >> >> On 2024-02-16 17:02, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises >> from their dealer oriented support department that we >> could expect better service from them. We had an EG4 BMS >> crap out a couple months ago after only a few months. >> Lots and lots of communications with Signature and we >> still don't have a BMS or replacement battery. It's been >> a shit show with them. I think we are going to remove >> them and install 3rd party BMS's and find some use for >> them. Maybe donate them. We've only had luck with >> Schneider/Discover pairings in closed loop. A large >> system we did with Sol-Arks never really worked in Closed >> loop, despite Discover coming to the site. Most likely >> it's a Sol-Ark issue, but we've reached Sol-Arks >> technical expertise limits. Even with Schneider/AES, >> there have been some issues that are causing me to >> re-consider Li for offgrid. I just had a conversation >> this morning with a long time off-grid pro and he said >> the same thing. It used to be, we'd install a wet lead >> acid bank and then ten years would pass before hearing >> from the client when it was time for another bank. >> Sometimes fifteen years. Our call backs with systems over >> the last ten years, first with a decline in equipment >> quality and then the switch to Li are costing us too much >> money and causing a lot of heartburn for our clients. >> Rant Over >> >> On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 12:57 PM Howie Michaelson via >> RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> >> I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG4 >> inverters and batteries. The comments have been >> mostly positive.  I have stayed away from EG4 until >> now in part, for the reason the Michael Morningstar >> suggested last June - that is, they seemed very >> oriented to the DIY market and not real serious >> contenders in the lasting marketplace. However, I was >> at RE+ Boston this week and was quite surprised to >> see that the EG4 18k inverter is, for all I could >> tell, identical to the Fortress Envy 12k, in both >> physical layout as well as menu structure. I have >> very limited experience with the Envy (having just >> installed my 1st one last week, in order to compare >> it to the Sol-Ark 15). I don't have any thoughts >> about it yet, except that the font on the screen is >> quite small and the opening screen is not as >> intuitive as the Sol-Ark, but that might just take >> familiarizing myself more to the Envy (and/or the EG4). >> >> My question is, for folks who have had either the >> Envy or the EG4 inverters installed for a decent >> period of time, what is your current take on their >> functionality, durability, and for the EG4, the >> quality of support? Also, what experience have folks >> had similarly with the EG4 LLI batteries? I'm not >> unhappy with the Sol-Ark or in general the Fortress >> eVault Max battery, but there are some attractive >> things about the Envy and potentially the EG4 18k, >> and the price point and seemingly smart configuration >> of the EG4 LLI batteries are certainly eye-catching. >> >> I'm also currently starting to lean toward using >> Lithium batteries and inverters from the same >> manufacturer, as I'm growing weary of the mismatching >> firmware updates that are causing somewhat frequent >> issues between the 2 components. Although the >> inverter/battery integrated units (i.e. Sonen, Tesla, >> etc.) don't seem ideal, since the market is so >> volatile at the moment. If one component fails, I'd >> like the option to replace it with a different brand >> without having to replace the other component as >> well. Using the same manu doesn't necessarily cut >> down the problems, but it certainly will help in the >> troubleshooting process by hopefully having less of >> the "not my problem" or "we haven't seen that >> problem" responses from tech support. >> >> I really don't like making forays into bleeding-edge >> technologies, so I'm hoping to gain some experienced >> insight. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Howie Michaelson >> >> Sun Catcher >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one >> doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- >> >> Michael Morningstar >> >> Morningstar Electric >> >> PO Box 1494 >> >> Mount Shasta, CA 96067 >> >> 530-921-0560 >> >> mjmorningstar at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one >> doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >> work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Feb 20 11:59:50 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2024 08:59:50 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment In-Reply-To: <579f640b6d69c45ccffe2189905610c5@sti.net> References: <729bc8b4c667a16ea2e22664271209a6@sti.net> <579f640b6d69c45ccffe2189905610c5@sti.net> Message-ID: Someone asked about the loss on the discover AES rackmount. "The contactor is bi-stable so it doesn't require extra holding current in either state. The ON state loss is 7.49mA." https://discoverlithium.com/products/lithium-batteries/aes-rackmount Also below is a response from Schneider on closing the loop with EG4. Thanks for the feedback Dave. I visited Signature last year to offer training. The EG4 is available in the dropdown menu for BMS Setup in v1.18 InsightLocal firmware. Integration with XW Pro has worked well from what I have seen. Eric Eric Bentsen Auburn, WA United States [9] [10] Download mySchneider app [10] 24/7 support. Mobile catalog. Access to expert help. [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] Genera ------------------------- Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [7]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [8] [7] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment Date: 2024-02-16 3:11 pm From: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches To: RE-wrenches Cc: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Reply-To: offgridsolar at sti.net, RE-wrenches Howie, I think you should also look again at the Discover rack mount system in the link below. Nice 75 year old company that made it's name on Locomotive batteries. Their prices are way down around 14 K for 30Kwh with heaters. If you have not looked at Lynk2 their gateway closed loop into SMA, Schneider, Solark, Morningstar and a few others you should. The only problems I have with Schneider are pretty easy and get resolved because I only use them and take all of the training. Conext Insight is a home run for my clients. Schneider also hired me to test their first closed loop system with LG back in 2017 and it still is working fine. https://discoverlithium.com/products/lithium-batteries/aes-rackmount [18] Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [7]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [8] [7] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-02-16 2:02 pm, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises from their > dealer oriented support department that we could expect better service > from them. We had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple months ago after only a > few months. Lots and lots of communications with Signature and we still > don't have a BMS or replacement battery. It's been a shit show with > them. I think we are going to remove them and install 3rd party BMS's > and find some use for them. Maybe donate them. We've only had luck with > Schneider/Discover pairings in closed loop. A large system we did with > Sol-Arks never really worked in Closed loop, despite Discover coming to > the site. Most likely it's a Sol-Ark issue, but we've reached Sol-Arks > technical expertise limits. Even with Schneider/AES, there have been > some issues that are causing me to re-consider Li for offgrid. I just > had a conversation this morning with a long time off-grid pro and he > said the same thing. It used to be, we'd install a wet lead acid bank > and then ten years would pass before hearing from the client when it > was time for another bank. Sometimes fifteen years. Our call backs with > systems over the last ten years, first with a decline in equipment > quality and then the switch to Li are costing us too much money and > causing a lot of heartburn for our clients. Rant Over > > On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 12:57 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches > wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG4 inverters and >> batteries. The comments have been mostly positive. I have stayed away >> from EG4 until now in part, for the reason the Michael Morningstar >> suggested last June - that is, they seemed very oriented to the DIY >> market and not real serious contenders in the lasting marketplace. >> However, I was at RE+ Boston this week and was quite surprised to see >> that the EG4 18k inverter is, for all I could tell, identical to the >> Fortress Envy 12k, in both physical layout as well as menu structure. >> I have very limited experience with the Envy (having just installed my >> 1st one last week, in order to compare it to the Sol-Ark 15). I don't >> have any thoughts about it yet, except that the font on the screen is >> quite small and the opening screen is not as intuitive as the Sol-Ark, >> but that might just take familiarizing myself more to the Envy (and/or >> the EG4). >> >> My question is, for folks who have had either the Envy or the EG4 >> inverters installed for a decent period of time, what is your current >> take on their functionality, durability, and for the EG4, the quality >> of support? Also, what experience have folks had similarly with the >> EG4 LLI batteries? I'm not unhappy with the Sol-Ark or in general the >> Fortress eVault Max battery, but there are some attractive things >> about the Envy and potentially the EG4 18k, and the price point and >> seemingly smart configuration of the EG4 LLI batteries are certainly >> eye-catching. >> >> I'm also currently starting to lean toward using Lithium batteries and >> inverters from the same manufacturer, as I'm growing weary of the >> mismatching firmware updates that are causing somewhat frequent issues >> between the 2 components. Although the inverter/battery integrated >> units (i.e. Sonen, Tesla, etc.) don't seem ideal, since the market is >> so volatile at the moment. If one component fails, I'd like the option >> to replace it with a different brand without having to replace the >> other component as well. Using the same manu doesn't necessarily cut >> down the problems, but it certainly will help in the troubleshooting >> process by hopefully having less of the "not my problem" or "we >> haven't seen that problem" responses from tech support. >> >> I really don't like making forays into bleeding-edge technologies, so >> I'm hoping to gain some experienced insight. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Howie Michaelson >> >> Sun Catcher >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [1] >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> [2] >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [3] >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [4] >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [5] >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [6] > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > Morningstar Electric > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [1] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [2] > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [3] > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [4] > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [5] > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [6] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [1] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [2] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [3] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [4] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [5] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [6] Links: ------ [1] http://re-wrenches.org/ [2] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [3] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [4] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [6] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ [7] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [8] https://offgridsolar1.com/ [9] https://youtu.be/dux6kG13QWM [10] https://www.se.com/en/work/support/myschneider-app/ [11] https://www.facebook.com/SchneiderElectric [12] https://www.linkedin.com/company/schneider-electric [13] https://blog.se.com/ [14] https://www.twitter.com/SchneiderElec [15] https://www.youtube.com/schneidercorporate [16] https://instagram.com/schneiderelectric [17] https://www.se.com/ww/en/about-us/sustainability/responsibility-ethics/trustline/ [18] https://discoverlithium.com/products/lithium-batteries/aes-rackmount -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Tue Feb 20 12:40:33 2024 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2024 10:40:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo RSS Off Grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > What I recommended while at AEE was to use a 48VDC to 12VDC converter to > power the Tigo and APS transmitters. This works well. Here's the one I > recommended if it's still available: mean-well/ddr30l12 > I > never had any negative feedback using this with a Sol-Ark and APS devices. > We have two recent installations employing a similar solution. If it's helpful I've attached a couple photos showing the converter and transmitter that pair nicely with the suggested one-lines shared by Bradley. This is from a Sol-Ark/Fortress eVault installation with AP Smart RSD. Cheers, Sam > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: rapid-shutdown-converter.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 343574 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: rapid-shutdown.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 593882 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tom.mccalmont at pairedpower.com Tue Feb 20 12:42:49 2024 From: tom.mccalmont at pairedpower.com (Tom McCalmont) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2024 09:42:49 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment In-Reply-To: References: <729bc8b4c667a16ea2e22664271209a6@sti.net> <579f640b6d69c45ccffe2189905610c5@sti.net> Message-ID: <2427C8C8-E6B8-4B4C-B94D-EAF5F2A5C48B@pairedpower.com> I have an LG RESU-10H Gen2 Type R battery that has discharged so far that the display will no longer turn on. Apparently, there is a recovery process for this situation that involves using an LG-sanctioned charger that will properly manage the BMS throughout the recovery process. I have access to the correct charger for this purpose. However, I have searched the Internet and Youtube and cannot find any instructions that explain how to operate the charger and recover the LG battery. Does anyone on this group have experience with this situation and can help? Is there a service manual for the LG RESU battery that explains how to recharge it in this situation (again, can find nothing but the installation manual on the internet). Many thanks for any insights. Tom McCalmont > On Feb 20, 2024, at 8:59 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Someone asked about the loss on the discover AES rackmount. > > "The contactor is bi-stable so it doesn’t require extra holding current in either state. The ON state loss is 7.49mA." > > https://discoverlithium.com/products/lithium-batteries/aes-rackmount > > > > Also below is a response from Schneider on closing the loop with EG4. > > > > Thanks for the feedback Dave. > I visited Signature last year to offer training. The EG4 is available in the dropdown menu for BMS Setup in v1.18 InsightLocal firmware. > Integration with XW Pro has worked well from what I have seen. > Eric > > > > Eric Bentsen > > Auburn, WA > United States > > > Download mySchneider app > 24/7 support. Mobile catalog. Access to expert help. > > > > > > > Genera > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > > "we go where powerlines don't" >   https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > -------- Original Message -------- > > Subject: > Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment > Date: > 2024-02-16 3:11 pm > From: > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches > > To: > RE-wrenches > > Cc: > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > > Reply-To: > offgridsolar at sti.net , RE-wrenches > > > Howie, I think you should also look again at the Discover rack mount system in the link below. Nice 75 year old company that made it's name on Locomotive batteries. Their prices are way down around 14 K for 30Kwh with heaters. If you have not looked at Lynk2 their gateway closed loop into SMA, Schneider, Solark, Morningstar and a few others you should. > > The only problems I have with Schneider are pretty easy and get resolved because I only use them and take all of the training. Conext Insight is a home run for my clients. Schneider also hired me to test their first closed loop system with LG back in 2017 and it still is working fine. > > https://discoverlithium.com/products/lithium-batteries/aes-rackmount > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" >   https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On 2024-02-16 2:02 pm, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises from their dealer oriented support department that we could expect better service from them. We had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple months ago after only a few months. Lots and lots of communications with Signature and we still don't have a BMS or replacement battery. It's been a shit show with them. I think we are going to remove them and install 3rd party BMS's and find some use for them. Maybe donate them. We've only had luck with Schneider/Discover pairings in closed loop. A large system we did with Sol-Arks never really worked in Closed loop, despite Discover coming to the site. Most likely it's a Sol-Ark issue, but we've reached Sol-Arks technical expertise limits. Even with Schneider/AES, there have been some issues that are causing me to re-consider Li for offgrid. I just had a conversation this morning with a long time off-grid pro and he said the same thing. It used to be, we'd install a wet lead acid bank and then ten years would pass before hearing from the client when it was time for another bank. Sometimes fifteen years. Our call backs with systems over the last ten years, first with a decline in equipment quality and then the switch to Li are costing us too much money and causing a lot of heartburn for our clients. Rant Over > > On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 12:57 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Hi All, > > I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG4 inverters and batteries. The comments have been mostly positive. I have stayed away from EG4 until now in part, for the reason the Michael Morningstar suggested last June - that is, they seemed very oriented to the DIY market and not real serious contenders in the lasting marketplace. However, I was at RE+ Boston this week and was quite surprised to see that the EG4 18k inverter is, for all I could tell, identical to the Fortress Envy 12k, in both physical layout as well as menu structure. I have very limited experience with the Envy (having just installed my 1st one last week, in order to compare it to the Sol-Ark 15). I don't have any thoughts about it yet, except that the font on the screen is quite small and the opening screen is not as intuitive as the Sol-Ark, but that might just take familiarizing myself more to the Envy (and/or the EG4). > > My question is, for folks who have had either the Envy or the EG4 inverters installed for a decent period of time, what is your current take on their functionality, durability, and for the EG4, the quality of support? Also, what experience have folks had similarly with the EG4 LLI batteries? I'm not unhappy with the Sol-Ark or in general the Fortress eVault Max battery, but there are some attractive things about the Envy and potentially the EG4 18k, and the price point and seemingly smart configuration of the EG4 LLI batteries are certainly eye-catching. > > I'm also currently starting to lean toward using Lithium batteries and inverters from the same manufacturer, as I'm growing weary of the mismatching firmware updates that are causing somewhat frequent issues between the 2 components. Although the inverter/battery integrated units (i.e. Sonen, Tesla, etc.) don't seem ideal, since the market is so volatile at the moment. If one component fails, I'd like the option to replace it with a different brand without having to replace the other component as well. Using the same manu doesn't necessarily cut down the problems, but it certainly will help in the troubleshooting process by hopefully having less of the "not my problem" or "we haven't seen that problem" responses from tech support. > > I really don't like making forays into bleeding-edge technologies, so I'm hoping to gain some experienced insight. > > Thanks, > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > Morningstar Electric > PO Box 1494 > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > 530-921-0560 > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Feb 20 13:09:17 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2024 10:09:17 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment In-Reply-To: <2427C8C8-E6B8-4B4C-B94D-EAF5F2A5C48B@pairedpower.com> References: <729bc8b4c667a16ea2e22664271209a6@sti.net> <579f640b6d69c45ccffe2189905610c5@sti.net> <2427C8C8-E6B8-4B4C-B94D-EAF5F2A5C48B@pairedpower.com> Message-ID: <14791c9f98aa85db92d0029c39527333@sti.net> The LG charger probably generates the Heartbeat signal you need to fool the contactor to be on for charging. I Think! My experience is with the 48V RESU 10 and not the RESU 10H that is a 400vdc battery. There were a few people on here with 10H so hang on. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-02-20 9:42 am, Tom McCalmont via RE-wrenches wrote: > I have an LG RESU-10H Gen2 Type R battery that has discharged so far > that the display will no longer turn on. Apparently, there is a > recovery process for this situation that involves using an > LG-sanctioned charger that will properly manage the BMS throughout the > recovery process. I have access to the correct charger for this > purpose. > > However, I have searched the Internet and Youtube and cannot find any > instructions that explain how to operate the charger and recover the LG > battery. > > Does anyone on this group have experience with this situation and can > help? Is there a service manual for the LG RESU battery that explains > how to recharge it in this situation (again, can find nothing but the > installation manual on the internet). > > Many thanks for any insights. > > Tom McCalmont > > On Feb 20, 2024, at 8:59 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > Someone asked about the loss on the discover AES rackmount. > > "The contactor is bi-stable so it doesn't require extra holding current > in either state. The ON state loss is 7.49mA." > > https://discoverlithium.com/products/lithium-batteries/aes-rackmount > > Also below is a response from Schneider on closing the loop with EG4. > > Thanks for the feedback Dave. > I visited Signature last year to offer training. The EG4 is available > in the dropdown menu for BMS Setup in v1.18 InsightLocal firmware. > Integration with XW Pro has worked well from what I have seen. > Eric > > Eric Bentsen > > Auburn, WA > United States > > [3] > > [4] > > Download mySchneider app [4] > > 24/7 support. Mobile catalog. Access to expert help. > > [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] > > Genera > > ------------------------- > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > > "we go where powerlines don't" > > [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] > > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > > text 209 813 0060 > > -------- Original Message -------- > > Subject: > Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment > > Date: > 2024-02-16 3:11 pm > > From: > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches > > > To: > RE-wrenches > > Cc: > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > > Reply-To: > offgridsolar at sti.net, RE-wrenches > > Howie, I think you should also look again at the Discover rack mount > system in the link below. Nice 75 year old company that made it's name > on Locomotive batteries. Their prices are way down around 14 K for > 30Kwh with heaters. If you have not looked at Lynk2 their gateway > closed loop into SMA, Schneider, Solark, Morningstar and a few others > you should. > > The only problems I have with Schneider are pretty easy and get > resolved because I only use them and take all of the training. Conext > Insight is a home run for my clients. Schneider also hired me to test > their first closed loop system with LG back in 2017 and it still is > working fine. > > https://discoverlithium.com/products/lithium-batteries/aes-rackmount > [12] > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > > "we go where powerlines don't" > > [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] > > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > > text 209 813 0060 > > On 2024-02-16 2:02 pm, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises from their > dealer oriented support department that we could expect better service > from them. We had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple months ago after only a > few months. Lots and lots of communications with Signature and we still > don't have a BMS or replacement battery. It's been a shit show with > them. I think we are going to remove them and install 3rd party BMS's > and find some use for them. Maybe donate them. We've only had luck with > Schneider/Discover pairings in closed loop. A large system we did with > Sol-Arks never really worked in Closed loop, despite Discover coming to > the site. Most likely it's a Sol-Ark issue, but we've reached Sol-Arks > technical expertise limits. Even with Schneider/AES, there have been > some issues that are causing me to re-consider Li for offgrid. I just > had a conversation this morning with a long time off-grid pro and he > said the same thing. It used to be, we'd install a wet lead acid bank > and then ten years would pass before hearing from the client when it > was time for another bank. Sometimes fifteen years. Our call backs with > systems over the last ten years, first with a decline in equipment > quality and then the switch to Li are costing us too much money and > causing a lot of heartburn for our clients. Rant Over > > On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 12:57 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi All, > > I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG4 inverters and > batteries. The comments have been mostly positive. I have stayed away > from EG4 until now in part, for the reason the Michael Morningstar > suggested last June - that is, they seemed very oriented to the DIY > market and not real serious contenders in the lasting marketplace. > However, I was at RE+ Boston this week and was quite surprised to see > that the EG4 18k inverter is, for all I could tell, identical to the > Fortress Envy 12k, in both physical layout as well as menu structure. I > have very limited experience with the Envy (having just installed my > 1st one last week, in order to compare it to the Sol-Ark 15). I don't > have any thoughts about it yet, except that the font on the screen is > quite small and the opening screen is not as intuitive as the Sol-Ark, > but that might just take familiarizing myself more to the Envy (and/or > the EG4). > > My question is, for folks who have had either the Envy or the EG4 > inverters installed for a decent period of time, what is your current > take on their functionality, durability, and for the EG4, the quality > of support? Also, what experience have folks had similarly with the EG4 > LLI batteries? I'm not unhappy with the Sol-Ark or in general the > Fortress eVault Max battery, but there are some attractive things about > the Envy and potentially the EG4 18k, and the price point and seemingly > smart configuration of the EG4 LLI batteries are certainly > eye-catching. > > I'm also currently starting to lean toward using Lithium batteries and > inverters from the same manufacturer, as I'm growing weary of the > mismatching firmware updates that are causing somewhat frequent issues > between the 2 components. Although the inverter/battery integrated > units (i.e. Sonen, Tesla, etc.) don't seem ideal, since the market is > so volatile at the moment. If one component fails, I'd like the option > to replace it with a different brand without having to replace the > other component as well. Using the same manu doesn't necessarily cut > down the problems, but it certainly will help in the troubleshooting > process by hopefully having less of the "not my problem" or "we haven't > seen that problem" responses from tech support. > > I really don't like making forays into bleeding-edge technologies, so > I'm hoping to gain some experienced insight. > > Thanks, > > Howie Michaelson > > Sun Catcher > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [13] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [14] > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [15] > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [16] > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [17] > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [18] > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > Morningstar Electric > PO Box 1494 > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > 530-921-0560 > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [13] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [14] > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [15] > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [16] > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [17] > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [18] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [13] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [14] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [15] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [16] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [17] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [18] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [13] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [18] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ [3] https://youtu.be/dux6kG13QWM [4] https://www.se.com/en/work/support/myschneider-app/ [5] https://www.facebook.com/SchneiderElectric [6] https://www.linkedin.com/company/schneider-electric [7] https://blog.se.com/ [8] https://www.twitter.com/SchneiderElec [9] https://www.youtube.com/schneidercorporate [10] https://instagram.com/schneiderelectric [11] https://www.se.com/ww/en/about-us/sustainability/responsibility-ethics/trustline/ [12] https://discoverlithium.com/products/lithium-batteries/aes-rackmount [13] http://re-wrenches.org/ [14] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [15] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [16] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [17] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [18] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Feb 20 13:10:38 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2024 10:10:38 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment In-Reply-To: <2427C8C8-E6B8-4B4C-B94D-EAF5F2A5C48B@pairedpower.com> References: <729bc8b4c667a16ea2e22664271209a6@sti.net> <579f640b6d69c45ccffe2189905610c5@sti.net> <2427C8C8-E6B8-4B4C-B94D-EAF5F2A5C48B@pairedpower.com> Message-ID: You should start a new thread and not use this one. You will get more response! Good Luck! --- Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-02-20 9:42 am, Tom McCalmont via RE-wrenches wrote: > I have an LG RESU-10H Gen2 Type R battery that has discharged so far > that the display will no longer turn on. Apparently, there is a > recovery process for this situation that involves using an > LG-sanctioned charger that will properly manage the BMS throughout the > recovery process. I have access to the correct charger for this > purpose. > > However, I have searched the Internet and Youtube and cannot find any > instructions that explain how to operate the charger and recover the LG > battery. > > Does anyone on this group have experience with this situation and can > help? Is there a service manual for the LG RESU battery that explains > how to recharge it in this situation (again, can find nothing but the > installation manual on the internet). > > Many thanks for any insights. > > Tom McCalmont > > On Feb 20, 2024, at 8:59 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > Someone asked about the loss on the discover AES rackmount. > > "The contactor is bi-stable so it doesn't require extra holding current > in either state. The ON state loss is 7.49mA." > > https://discoverlithium.com/products/lithium-batteries/aes-rackmount > > Also below is a response from Schneider on closing the loop with EG4. > > Thanks for the feedback Dave. > I visited Signature last year to offer training. The EG4 is available > in the dropdown menu for BMS Setup in v1.18 InsightLocal firmware. > Integration with XW Pro has worked well from what I have seen. > Eric > > Eric Bentsen > > Auburn, WA > United States > > [3] > > [4] > > Download mySchneider app [4] > > 24/7 support. Mobile catalog. Access to expert help. > > [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] > > Genera > > ------------------------- > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > > "we go where powerlines don't" > > [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] > > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > > text 209 813 0060 > > -------- Original Message -------- > > Subject: > Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment > > Date: > 2024-02-16 3:11 pm > > From: > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches > > > To: > RE-wrenches > > Cc: > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > > Reply-To: > offgridsolar at sti.net, RE-wrenches > > Howie, I think you should also look again at the Discover rack mount > system in the link below. Nice 75 year old company that made it's name > on Locomotive batteries. Their prices are way down around 14 K for > 30Kwh with heaters. If you have not looked at Lynk2 their gateway > closed loop into SMA, Schneider, Solark, Morningstar and a few others > you should. > > The only problems I have with Schneider are pretty easy and get > resolved because I only use them and take all of the training. Conext > Insight is a home run for my clients. Schneider also hired me to test > their first closed loop system with LG back in 2017 and it still is > working fine. > > https://discoverlithium.com/products/lithium-batteries/aes-rackmount > [12] > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > > "we go where powerlines don't" > > [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] > > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > > text 209 813 0060 > > On 2024-02-16 2:02 pm, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises from their > dealer oriented support department that we could expect better service > from them. We had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple months ago after only a > few months. Lots and lots of communications with Signature and we still > don't have a BMS or replacement battery. It's been a shit show with > them. I think we are going to remove them and install 3rd party BMS's > and find some use for them. Maybe donate them. We've only had luck with > Schneider/Discover pairings in closed loop. A large system we did with > Sol-Arks never really worked in Closed loop, despite Discover coming to > the site. Most likely it's a Sol-Ark issue, but we've reached Sol-Arks > technical expertise limits. Even with Schneider/AES, there have been > some issues that are causing me to re-consider Li for offgrid. I just > had a conversation this morning with a long time off-grid pro and he > said the same thing. It used to be, we'd install a wet lead acid bank > and then ten years would pass before hearing from the client when it > was time for another bank. Sometimes fifteen years. Our call backs with > systems over the last ten years, first with a decline in equipment > quality and then the switch to Li are costing us too much money and > causing a lot of heartburn for our clients. Rant Over > > On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 12:57 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi All, > > I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG4 inverters and > batteries. The comments have been mostly positive. I have stayed away > from EG4 until now in part, for the reason the Michael Morningstar > suggested last June - that is, they seemed very oriented to the DIY > market and not real serious contenders in the lasting marketplace. > However, I was at RE+ Boston this week and was quite surprised to see > that the EG4 18k inverter is, for all I could tell, identical to the > Fortress Envy 12k, in both physical layout as well as menu structure. I > have very limited experience with the Envy (having just installed my > 1st one last week, in order to compare it to the Sol-Ark 15). I don't > have any thoughts about it yet, except that the font on the screen is > quite small and the opening screen is not as intuitive as the Sol-Ark, > but that might just take familiarizing myself more to the Envy (and/or > the EG4). > > My question is, for folks who have had either the Envy or the EG4 > inverters installed for a decent period of time, what is your current > take on their functionality, durability, and for the EG4, the quality > of support? Also, what experience have folks had similarly with the EG4 > LLI batteries? I'm not unhappy with the Sol-Ark or in general the > Fortress eVault Max battery, but there are some attractive things about > the Envy and potentially the EG4 18k, and the price point and seemingly > smart configuration of the EG4 LLI batteries are certainly > eye-catching. > > I'm also currently starting to lean toward using Lithium batteries and > inverters from the same manufacturer, as I'm growing weary of the > mismatching firmware updates that are causing somewhat frequent issues > between the 2 components. Although the inverter/battery integrated > units (i.e. Sonen, Tesla, etc.) don't seem ideal, since the market is > so volatile at the moment. If one component fails, I'd like the option > to replace it with a different brand without having to replace the > other component as well. Using the same manu doesn't necessarily cut > down the problems, but it certainly will help in the troubleshooting > process by hopefully having less of the "not my problem" or "we haven't > seen that problem" responses from tech support. > > I really don't like making forays into bleeding-edge technologies, so > I'm hoping to gain some experienced insight. > > Thanks, > > Howie Michaelson > > Sun Catcher > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [13] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [14] > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [15] > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [16] > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [17] > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [18] > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > Morningstar Electric > PO Box 1494 > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > 530-921-0560 > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [13] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [14] > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [15] > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [16] > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [17] > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [18] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [13] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [14] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [15] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [16] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [17] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [18] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [13] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [18] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ [3] https://youtu.be/dux6kG13QWM [4] https://www.se.com/en/work/support/myschneider-app/ [5] https://www.facebook.com/SchneiderElectric [6] https://www.linkedin.com/company/schneider-electric [7] https://blog.se.com/ [8] https://www.twitter.com/SchneiderElec [9] https://www.youtube.com/schneidercorporate [10] https://instagram.com/schneiderelectric [11] https://www.se.com/ww/en/about-us/sustainability/responsibility-ethics/trustline/ [12] https://discoverlithium.com/products/lithium-batteries/aes-rackmount [13] http://re-wrenches.org/ [14] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [15] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [16] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [17] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [18] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Tue Feb 20 13:32:40 2024 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2024 10:32:40 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LG Battery charger instruction Message-ID: Hi Tom, a few years ago I decided to buy my own LG battery charger because we needed the damn thing so often. Now I only use it once or twice per year, because I stopped installing LG batteries. Here is the instruction I have which works on my charger (same charger as the LG-sanctioned :: the manufacturer is VOLTEQ and the model # is HY20010EX) On the battery itself, you need to pop the black (aesthetic-only) cover off the top of the battery. Under there are several 10mm fasteners that hold down the actual watertight cover. Inside there are some fuses - if any of these fuses are blown, LG told me that the battery is toast and LG needs to take it back and rebuild it. But if your fuses are good then you can determine the positive and negative leads by red and black conductors. * The RESU10H battery should be charged at 152 Volts. *Instructions for Using Volteq DC Power Supply to Charge Batteries* 1. Make sure the "O.V. Set" knob (second knob from the left) is set to the maximum setting before you begin. 2. Turn the AC power on using the air switch in the back. 3. Enable the output by pushing the green button to 'IN' position. 4. Turn the current knob (the leftmost knob) to slightly above minimum so that the CV light is on. 5. Use the two knobs on the right to set the voltage to desired level recommended by the battery manufacturer. 6. Connect the battery to the back terminals, make sure the polarity is correct: + to + and - to -. 7. Turn the current knob to maximum, or the desired current recommended by battery manufacturer. 8. Watch the charging progress, when the current is below 1A or 1/10 of the maximum charging current, it is probably time to stop. Make sure the AC power never goes offline during the charging process. 9. Stop the output using the green button, disconnect the battery from the power supply, and then turn off the power supply. -- David Quattro CA License # 954020. C-10, C-46 ph (415) 312-2661 www.quattrosolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Wed Feb 21 08:43:39 2024 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2024 08:43:39 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo RSS Off Grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: With the Sol-Ark (or other DC coupled inverter/charge controller combinations such as the Envy), will the system pass through solar power if the inverter has turned off on LBCO? If not, then these alternative methods for powering the RSD signal generators won't make a difference, correct? And does anyone know about the built in signal generator in the Envy (or others?) continue to work if the inverter has shut down on LBCO? If not, wouldn't using the built in signal generators cause a significant headache in those circumstances? Howie Michaelson On Tue, Feb 20, 2024 at 12:42 PM Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > What I recommended while at AEE was to use a 48VDC to 12VDC converter to >> power the Tigo and APS transmitters. This works well. Here's the one I >> recommended if it's still available: mean-well/ddr30l12 >> I >> never had any negative feedback using this with a Sol-Ark and APS devices. >> > > We have two recent installations employing a similar solution. If it's > helpful I've attached a couple photos showing the converter and transmitter > that pair nicely with the suggested one-lines shared by Bradley. This is > from a Sol-Ark/Fortress eVault installation with AP Smart RSD. > > Cheers, > Sam > >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Wed Feb 21 11:06:07 2024 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2024 08:06:07 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo RSS Off Grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <65E9C668-7B33-4665-AC29-FBB09AA0E059@me.com> The 48v to 12v DC converter approach should be immune from the inverters LBCO since it lives on the battery side of the inverter/bus. I’ve done a few systems using Tigo’s without issue. The main concern is you now have a DC load attached to the battery output lacking DC load protection that could potentially consume the little bit of battery capacity you had reserved below the programmed inverter LBCO. This possibly could require a black start effort by a homeowner or technician if there were severe clouds for an extended period. It’s not been a problem for me yet, I typically leave my LBCO for most of my Blue Ion sites at 48.4vdc. I wasn’t aware of the Mean-well converters and had been forced to source them from Bezos unfortunately. Nick > On Feb 21, 2024, at 5:43 AM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote: > > With the Sol-Ark (or other DC coupled inverter/charge controller combinations such as the Envy), will the system pass through solar power if the inverter has turned off on LBCO? If not, then these alternative methods for powering the RSD signal generators won't make a difference, correct? > And does anyone know about the built in signal generator in the Envy (or others?) continue to work if the inverter has shut down on LBCO? If not, wouldn't using the built in signal generators cause a significant headache in those circumstances? > Howie Michaelson > > > On Tue, Feb 20, 2024 at 12:42 PM Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches > wrote: > What I recommended while at AEE was to use a 48VDC to 12VDC converter to power the Tigo and APS transmitters. This works well. Here's the one I recommended if it's still available: mean-well/ddr30l12 I never had any negative feedback using this with a Sol-Ark and APS devices. > > We have two recent installations employing a similar solution. If it's helpful I've attached a couple photos showing the converter and transmitter that pair nicely with the suggested one-lines shared by Bradley. This is from a Sol-Ark/Fortress eVault installation with AP Smart RSD. > > Cheers, > Sam > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Feb 21 11:37:00 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2024 09:37:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AP systems contact info In-Reply-To: <65E9C668-7B33-4665-AC29-FBB09AA0E059@me.com> References: <65E9C668-7B33-4665-AC29-FBB09AA0E059@me.com> Message-ID: Does anyone have a working phone number for AP systems? I have a system that works but all the LED lights don’t work on the inverters thanks jay From markf at berkeleysolar.com Wed Feb 21 14:00:10 2024 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2024 19:00:10 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rugged Wind/Solar System For Radio Message-ID: Gentlefolk, I have a 35 watt radio transmitter that I need to station in the desert for a critical application. Any recommendations for a turnkey provider of a combined solar/wind/battery system? Should I build it myself? Thanks, Mark Frye Berkeley Solar Electric Systems 530 401 8024 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at getpimby.com Wed Feb 21 14:00:47 2024 From: matt at getpimby.com (Matt Sherald) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2024 14:00:47 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Board Repair Message-ID: Hi All, I'm looking to move along some damaged Outback (GVFX and VFX) boards. I found an older thread referencing Kris Stone, but didn't have luck with the email. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks! -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC 304-704-5943 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Feb 21 14:12:10 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2024 11:12:10 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding customer to Optics RE system Message-ID: Friends: This is a subject that has frustrated me for a long time. I have asked Outback Tech support but none of their people do this because they are not customers. I will connect anew system to Optics and send the client an invitation. The customer creates and account and then is directed to a page that shows this: There is only one link to click and it takes you to this: Again, you have only one choice. The next step prompts to enter a MAC address but that MAC address is already in the system and the system will not let the customer proceed. I have dealt with this for years. Some customers stumble onto the solution but if I look over someone’s shoulder I do not see how to log into an existing system. Anyone know what I am missing? Thanks in advance. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 27365 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 27345 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wstahle at pacific.net Wed Feb 21 14:23:57 2024 From: wstahle at pacific.net (Wallace Stahle) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2024 11:23:57 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Board Repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2A3EAB27-4633-4DDE-B8B4-FE80DAA534B1@pacific.net> Zonna Energy is one option. Thats zone-ah I sent them a faulty radian stack after they sent me a repaired one. 330-674-1750. Ask for Amos or Ext. 2. zonnaenergy.com > On Feb 21, 2024, at 11:00 AM, Matt Sherald via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi All, > > I'm looking to move along some damaged Outback (GVFX and VFX) boards. > > I found an older thread referencing Kris Stone, but didn't have luck with the email. > > Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks! > > -- > Matt Sherald > PIMBY Energy, LLC > 304-704-5943 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Feb 21 14:26:45 2024 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2024 14:26:45 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rugged Wind/Solar System For Radio Message-ID: Sunwise-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Mark Frye via RE-wrenchesDate: Wed, Feb 21, 2024 2:00 PMTo: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org;Cc: Mark Frye;Subject:[RE-wrenches] Rugged Wind/Solar System For Radio Gentlefolk, I have a 35 watt radio transmitter that I need to station in the desert for a critical application. Any recommendations for a turnkey provider of a combined solar/wind/battery system? Should I build it myself? Thanks, Mark Frye Berkeley Solar Electric Systems 530 401 8024 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Wed Feb 21 14:46:19 2024 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2024 11:46:19 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding customer to Optics RE system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <92387EE2-CA9F-474E-A132-3EF47B0102F6@me.com> Greetings William, I think the trick is to have the customer wait until they get the invite and not have them create an account ahead of time. However on your end, it does say something about the client being able to add the system if they already have an account. I too have come across this exact headache you’re referring to and seems like it always resolves itself by way of the invitation email the installer initiates. Hope that helps. I know luck shouldn't need be associated but, good luck! Nick > On Feb 21, 2024, at 11:12 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Friends: > > This is a subject that has frustrated me for a long time. I have asked Outback Tech support but none of their people do this because they are not customers. > > I will connect anew system to Optics and send the client an invitation. The customer creates and account and then is directed to a page that shows this: > > > > There is only one link to click and it takes you to this: > > > Again, you have only one choice. The next step prompts to enter a MAC address but that MAC address is already in the system and the system will not let the customer proceed. > > I have dealt with this for years. Some customers stumble onto the solution but if I look over someone’s shoulder I do not see how to log into an existing system. Anyone know what I am missing? > > Thanks in advance. > > William > > > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Wed Feb 21 15:15:03 2024 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2024 12:15:03 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Board Repair In-Reply-To: <2A3EAB27-4633-4DDE-B8B4-FE80DAA534B1@pacific.net> References: <2A3EAB27-4633-4DDE-B8B4-FE80DAA534B1@pacific.net> Message-ID: <5D1D8229-7636-40A1-82B1-2C99B1510351@me.com> Zonna is a dependable resource. I often find they have more repair boards and parts in their inventory than Outback does themselves. Whether the older legacy boards or newer VFXR series, Zonna has them. I think of them as the off grid distributor solution provider that AEE used to be known for. Bradley B., has AEE made any effort to hire anyone that can attempt to offer the type of support and knowledge you were known for? Perhaps this is the reason they are phasing out Outback? Wallace, am I understanding correctly that they now offer repair services or refurbished board sets? I’ve only purchased new from them in the past and last time it seemed Kris Stone was perhaps too overburdened for an expedient repair solution. Judging by the amount of failures myself or other off grid focused Outback dealers out there I imagine Kris would be tied up for years! Not trying to throw any negativity towards Outback as I know many are trying to deal with growing pains and providing sufficient support but it can certainly be painful at times. Really looking forward to going all in on Midnite’s newest offerings once they get the comms box out. Really loving the Barcelona and Rosie so far. Nick > On Feb 21, 2024, at 11:23 AM, Wallace Stahle via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Zonna Energy is one option. Thats zone-ah > > I sent them a faulty radian stack after they sent me a repaired one. > > 330-674-1750. Ask for Amos or Ext. 2. zonnaenergy.com > >> On Feb 21, 2024, at 11:00 AM, Matt Sherald via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> >> I'm looking to move along some damaged Outback (GVFX and VFX) boards. >> >> I found an older thread referencing Kris Stone, but didn't have luck with the email. >> >> Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks! >> >> -- >> Matt Sherald >> PIMBY Energy, LLC >> 304-704-5943 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Wed Feb 21 21:20:37 2024 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2024 21:20:37 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rugged Wind/Solar System For Radio In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As far as wind is concerned, I recommend SuperWind, made in Germany. It is well built and designed to handle high winds. It is rated at 1000 watts and I have seen data showing over 1kwhr for an hour increment. Typically it is outputting 100 to 300 watts. My customer found it on line and asked what I thought about it. I had not heard of it before but the specs sounded good. I already had upgraded their system from a disaster (they actually burned up the power room ) I installed an Outback VFX3648 on an epanel and installed 6 panels on the remnants of their original building and then added 4 DPW racks of 3 panels each so they could tilt for winter snow. 16 L16 wet cells. They do maintenance frequently enough to keep an eye on water level. It worked pretty well, but they still had too much generator time in the winter when it was hard to get propane up the mountain. I then installed their Superwind on a 35" tilt up tower next to their 50' comm tower. Since the mountaintop has good winds during the winter, it has saved them 75% of their generator time and consequently they have not had to refuel in the winter at all. We monitor it with opticsRE and also with some of their transmitter data. Their load is about 300 watts 24/7 with it dropping off a little late at night. It is a repeater site for business band radios, police, emergency etc. John Blittersdorf CV Wind Service. On Wed, Feb 21, 2024 at 2:02 PM Mark Frye via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Gentlefolk, > > I have a 35 watt radio transmitter that I need to station in the desert > for a critical application. > > Any recommendations for a turnkey provider of a combined > solar/wind/battery system? > > Should I build it myself? > > Thanks, > > Mark Frye > Berkeley Solar Electric Systems > 530 401 8024 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Wed Feb 21 21:29:02 2024 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2024 18:29:02 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo RSS Off Grid In-Reply-To: <65E9C668-7B33-4665-AC29-FBB09AA0E059@me.com> References: <65E9C668-7B33-4665-AC29-FBB09AA0E059@me.com> Message-ID: <9D4AF1A0-FB57-42DA-9ED0-385A258D52DC@me.com> Sorry Howie, I now see you were specifically asking about inverter/charge controller combo solutions. I should have caught that detail. Still seems as an easy workaround though if for some reason the inverter manufacturer failed to isolate the 12v output independent of the AC output LBCO. Perhaps just a bit more of a hassle to find a good spot to mount an OCPD for the converter. Typically I just use a 1 amp panel mount breaker inside the GSLC but obviously that would be nonexistent with a Solark or Envy. It’s already been a couple years since my first and only Solark with RSD and did utilize the 12v output for the transmitter but don’t recall how they determine when to terminate the 12v source. Hopefully someone more fond of the all in one inverters can fill us in! Nick > On Feb 21, 2024, at 8:06 AM, Nick A Lucchese via RE-wrenches wrote: > > The 48v to 12v DC converter approach should be immune from the inverters LBCO since it lives on the battery side of the inverter/bus. I’ve done a few systems using Tigo’s without issue. The main concern is you now have a DC load attached to the battery output lacking DC load protection that could potentially consume the little bit of battery capacity you had reserved below the programmed inverter LBCO. This possibly could require a black start effort by a homeowner or technician if there were severe clouds for an extended period. It’s not been a problem for me yet, I typically leave my LBCO for most of my Blue Ion sites at 48.4vdc. > > I wasn’t aware of the Mean-well converters and had been forced to source them from Bezos unfortunately. > > Nick > > > > > >> On Feb 21, 2024, at 5:43 AM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> >> With the Sol-Ark (or other DC coupled inverter/charge controller combinations such as the Envy), will the system pass through solar power if the inverter has turned off on LBCO? If not, then these alternative methods for powering the RSD signal generators won't make a difference, correct? >> And does anyone know about the built in signal generator in the Envy (or others?) continue to work if the inverter has shut down on LBCO? If not, wouldn't using the built in signal generators cause a significant headache in those circumstances? >> Howie Michaelson >> >> >> On Tue, Feb 20, 2024 at 12:42 PM Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> What I recommended while at AEE was to use a 48VDC to 12VDC converter to power the Tigo and APS transmitters. This works well. Here's the one I recommended if it's still available: mean-well/ddr30l12 I never had any negative feedback using this with a Sol-Ark and APS devices. >> >> We have two recent installations employing a similar solution. If it's helpful I've attached a couple photos showing the converter and transmitter that pair nicely with the suggested one-lines shared by Bradley. This is from a Sol-Ark/Fortress eVault installation with AP Smart RSD. >> >> Cheers, >> Sam >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Feb 21 21:41:01 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2024 19:41:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rugged Wind/Solar System For Radio In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Who carries the Superwind turbines?  We've been looking for a replacement for the old Bergey XL1 to offer clients. Thanks, Ray Walters Remote Solar On 2/21/2024 7:20 PM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote: > As far as wind is concerned, I recommend SuperWind, made in Germany.  > It is well built and designed to handle high winds.  It is rated at > 1000 watts and I have seen data showing over 1kwhr for an hour > increment.  Typically it is outputting 100 to 300 watts. My customer > found it on line and asked what I thought about it.  I had not heard > of it before but the specs sounded good.  I already had upgraded their > system from a disaster (they actually burned up the power room )  I > installed an Outback VFX3648 on an epanel and installed 6 panels on > the remnants of their original building and then added 4 DPW racks of > 3 panels each so they could tilt for winter snow.  16 L16 wet cells. > They do maintenance frequently enough to keep an eye on water level. > It worked pretty well, but they still had too much generator time in > the winter when it was hard to get propane up the mountain.  I then > installed their Superwind on a 35" tilt up tower next to their 50' > comm tower.  Since the mountaintop has good winds during the winter, > it has saved them 75% of their generator time and consequently they > have not had to refuel in the winter at all.  We monitor it with > opticsRE and also with some of their transmitter data.  Their load is > about 300 watts 24/7 with it dropping off a little late at night. > It is a repeater site for business band radios, police, emergency etc. > John Blittersdorf > CV Wind Service. > > On Wed, Feb 21, 2024 at 2:02 PM Mark Frye via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Gentlefolk, > > I have a 35 watt radio transmitter that I need to station in the > desert for a critical application. > > Any recommendations for a turnkey provider of a combined > solar/wind/battery system? > > Should I build it myself? > > Thanks, > > Mark Frye > Berkeley Solar Electric Systems > 530 401 8024 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Wed Feb 21 22:12:56 2024 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2024 19:12:56 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Board Repair In-Reply-To: <5D1D8229-7636-40A1-82B1-2C99B1510351@me.com> References: <2A3EAB27-4633-4DDE-B8B4-FE80DAA534B1@pacific.net> <5D1D8229-7636-40A1-82B1-2C99B1510351@me.com> Message-ID: Regarding AEE and off grid support, I'm not really in touch with them much any more so I can't say. You could ask Glenn Hall, he'd be able to say if he's heard anything about hiring a new tech. Of course finding someone with much off grid experience would be hard. Glenn and Alex do have some experience and may be able to help out. Brad On Wed, Feb 21, 2024 at 12:15 PM Nick A Lucchese via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Zonna is a dependable resource. I often find they have more repair boards > and parts in their inventory than Outback does themselves. Whether the > older legacy boards or newer VFXR series, Zonna has them. I think of them > as the off grid distributor solution provider that AEE used to be known for. > > Bradley B., has AEE made any effort to hire anyone that can attempt to > offer the type of support and knowledge you were known for? Perhaps this is > the reason they are phasing out Outback? > > Wallace, am I understanding correctly that they now offer repair services > or refurbished board sets? I’ve only purchased new from them in the past > and last time it seemed Kris Stone was perhaps too overburdened for an > expedient repair solution. Judging by the amount of failures myself or > other off grid focused Outback dealers out there I imagine Kris would be > tied up for years! Not trying to throw any negativity towards Outback as I > know many are trying to deal with growing pains and providing sufficient > support but it can certainly be painful at times. Really looking forward to > going all in on Midnite’s newest offerings once they get the comms box out. > Really loving the Barcelona and Rosie so far. > > Nick > > > > > > > On Feb 21, 2024, at 11:23 AM, Wallace Stahle via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Zonna Energy is one option. Thats zone-ah > > I sent them a faulty radian stack after they sent me a repaired one. > > 330-674-1750. Ask for Amos or Ext. 2. zonnaenergy.com > > On Feb 21, 2024, at 11:00 AM, Matt Sherald via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi All, > > I'm looking to move along some damaged Outback (GVFX and VFX) boards. > > I found an older thread referencing Kris Stone, but didn't have luck with > the email. > > Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks! > > -- > Matt Sherald > PIMBY Energy, LLC > 304-704-5943 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Thu Feb 22 08:41:30 2024 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 08:41:30 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rugged Wind/Solar System For Radio In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ray, I will check with my customer. They purchased it and I was only involved building a tower and installing. On Wed, Feb 21, 2024 at 9:41 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Who carries the Superwind turbines? We've been looking for a replacement > for the old Bergey XL1 to offer clients. > > Thanks, > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > On 2/21/2024 7:20 PM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote: > > As far as wind is concerned, I recommend SuperWind, made in Germany. It > is well built and designed to handle high winds. It is rated at 1000 watts > and I have seen data showing over 1kwhr for an hour increment. Typically > it is outputting 100 to 300 watts. My customer found it on line and asked > what I thought about it. I had not heard of it before but the specs > sounded good. I already had upgraded their system from a disaster (they > actually burned up the power room ) I installed an Outback VFX3648 on an > epanel and installed 6 panels on the remnants of their original building > and then added 4 DPW racks of 3 panels each so they could tilt for winter > snow. 16 L16 wet cells. They do maintenance frequently enough to keep an > eye on water level. It worked pretty well, but they still had too much > generator time in the winter when it was hard to get propane up the > mountain. I then installed their Superwind on a 35" tilt up tower next to > their 50' comm tower. Since the mountaintop has good winds during the > winter, it has saved them 75% of their generator time and consequently they > have not had to refuel in the winter at all. We monitor it with opticsRE > and also with some of their transmitter data. Their load is about 300 > watts 24/7 with it dropping off a little late at night. > It is a repeater site for business band radios, police, emergency etc. > John Blittersdorf > CV Wind Service. > > On Wed, Feb 21, 2024 at 2:02 PM Mark Frye via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Gentlefolk, >> >> I have a 35 watt radio transmitter that I need to station in the desert >> for a critical application. >> >> Any recommendations for a turnkey provider of a combined >> solar/wind/battery system? >> >> Should I build it myself? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Mark Frye >> Berkeley Solar Electric Systems >> 530 401 8024 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Thu Feb 22 08:45:37 2024 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 08:45:37 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Board Repair In-Reply-To: References: <2A3EAB27-4633-4DDE-B8B4-FE80DAA534B1@pacific.net> <5D1D8229-7636-40A1-82B1-2C99B1510351@me.com> Message-ID: I just tried to get Outback tech support and the message was if the product is under warranty, stay on the line for next available rep. If not warranty. contact Zonna Energy or NAZ Solar !!!!! On Wed, Feb 21, 2024 at 10:14 PM Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Regarding AEE and off grid support, I'm not really in touch with them much > any more so I can't say. You could ask Glenn Hall, he'd be able to say if > he's heard anything about hiring a new tech. Of course finding someone > with much off grid experience would be hard. Glenn and Alex do have some > experience and may be able to help out. > > Brad > > On Wed, Feb 21, 2024 at 12:15 PM Nick A Lucchese via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Zonna is a dependable resource. I often find they have more repair boards >> and parts in their inventory than Outback does themselves. Whether the >> older legacy boards or newer VFXR series, Zonna has them. I think of them >> as the off grid distributor solution provider that AEE used to be known for. >> >> Bradley B., has AEE made any effort to hire anyone that can attempt to >> offer the type of support and knowledge you were known for? Perhaps this is >> the reason they are phasing out Outback? >> >> Wallace, am I understanding correctly that they now offer repair services >> or refurbished board sets? I’ve only purchased new from them in the past >> and last time it seemed Kris Stone was perhaps too overburdened for an >> expedient repair solution. Judging by the amount of failures myself or >> other off grid focused Outback dealers out there I imagine Kris would be >> tied up for years! Not trying to throw any negativity towards Outback as I >> know many are trying to deal with growing pains and providing sufficient >> support but it can certainly be painful at times. Really looking forward to >> going all in on Midnite’s newest offerings once they get the comms box out. >> Really loving the Barcelona and Rosie so far. >> >> Nick >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Feb 21, 2024, at 11:23 AM, Wallace Stahle via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Zonna Energy is one option. Thats zone-ah >> >> I sent them a faulty radian stack after they sent me a repaired one. >> >> 330-674-1750. Ask for Amos or Ext. 2. zonnaenergy.com >> >> On Feb 21, 2024, at 11:00 AM, Matt Sherald via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> >> I'm looking to move along some damaged Outback (GVFX and VFX) boards. >> >> I found an older thread referencing Kris Stone, but didn't have luck with >> the email. >> >> Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks! >> >> -- >> Matt Sherald >> PIMBY Energy, LLC >> 304-704-5943 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Feb 22 10:04:39 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 08:04:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Board Repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7CC6D2A9-3CC0-4D32-BB72-393D9DDD01CF@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Feb 22 10:23:25 2024 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 08:23:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mounting height constraints for wall-mounted batteries Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, Is there a mounting height limit for Enphase batteries that you are aware of? I don't see one from Enphase, just clearance requirements but Im wondering if there is a code about this. Thanks! -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Feb 22 15:18:30 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 12:18:30 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Board Repair In-Reply-To: References: <2A3EAB27-4633-4DDE-B8B4-FE80DAA534B1@pacific.net> <5D1D8229-7636-40A1-82B1-2C99B1510351@me.com> Message-ID: <1adb8a00701bb35f27b3be50bdbabda6@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I have noticed the new verbiage on the vice line but as of yet I have not been denied tech support due to the age of the equipment. By the way, I called Fronius tech support yesterday for the first time in quite a while about 3 dead IG inverters (no surprise to me). Fronius was willing to start the conversation but the call mysteriously dropped a few minutes in and I could not reconnect… William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Thursday, February 22, 2024 5:46 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* John Blittersdorf *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Board Repair I just tried to get Outback tech support and the message was if the product is under warranty, stay on the line for next available rep. If not warranty. contact Zonna Energy or NAZ Solar !!!!! On Wed, Feb 21, 2024 at 10:14 PM Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Regarding AEE and off grid support, I'm not really in touch with them much any more so I can't say. You could ask Glenn Hall, he'd be able to say if he's heard anything about hiring a new tech. Of course finding someone with much off grid experience would be hard. Glenn and Alex do have some experience and may be able to help out. Brad On Wed, Feb 21, 2024 at 12:15 PM Nick A Lucchese via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Zonna is a dependable resource. I often find they have more repair boards and parts in their inventory than Outback does themselves. Whether the older legacy boards or newer VFXR series, Zonna has them. I think of them as the off grid distributor solution provider that AEE used to be known for. Bradley B., has AEE made any effort to hire anyone that can attempt to offer the type of support and knowledge you were known for? Perhaps this is the reason they are phasing out Outback? Wallace, am I understanding correctly that they now offer repair services or refurbished board sets? I’ve only purchased new from them in the past and last time it seemed Kris Stone was perhaps too overburdened for an expedient repair solution. Judging by the amount of failures myself or other off grid focused Outback dealers out there I imagine Kris would be tied up for years! Not trying to throw any negativity towards Outback as I know many are trying to deal with growing pains and providing sufficient support but it can certainly be painful at times. Really looking forward to going all in on Midnite’s newest offerings once they get the comms box out. Really loving the Barcelona and Rosie so far. Nick On Feb 21, 2024, at 11:23 AM, Wallace Stahle via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Zonna Energy is one option. Thats zone-ah I sent them a faulty radian stack after they sent me a repaired one. 330-674-1750. Ask for Amos or Ext. 2. zonnaenergy.com On Feb 21, 2024, at 11:00 AM, Matt Sherald via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Hi All, I'm looking to move along some damaged Outback (GVFX and VFX) boards. I found an older thread referencing Kris Stone, but didn't have luck with the email. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks! -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC 304-704-5943 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Feb 22 18:51:22 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 15:51:22 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Non-battery string inverter options? Message-ID: <8bc4fcf3b40ae12638365f5e1b92d635@mail.gmail.com> Friends: Now that RSS is required on almost every installation, I am having trouble finding a plain old, non-battery, non-MLPE string inverter. This is for a ground mount with the inverter mounted to the rack-- the only scenario I can imagine that does not require RSS. I don’t need or want battery capability, now or in the future. The project does not have shading issues and the inverter will be mounted on the array, so no version of MLPE is needed. My usual go-to would be the legacy SMA Sunny Boy series. I can’t dine one for sale and I am getting the impression these are no longer available. What might you recommend for this new installation? This brings up the question: Of all the Sunny Boy installations I have out there, the next time one fails, what am I going to replace it with? The new Sunny Boy Smarty-Pants series is not yet shipping, it is very expensive and to replace a grid-connected inverter I don’t need battery capabilities. I can’t use Solar Edge because I won’t want to unwire a complete array and add optimizers. I am not that taken with Sol-Ark, not only because it includes the word Arc in its name. I don’t need the battery capabilities, AC load center or any of the other complexities. Any advice is appreciated. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dlee at roamsolar.com Thu Feb 22 19:12:29 2024 From: dlee at roamsolar.com (Dave Lee) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 16:12:29 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Non-battery string inverter options? In-Reply-To: <8bc4fcf3b40ae12638365f5e1b92d635@mail.gmail.com> References: <8bc4fcf3b40ae12638365f5e1b92d635@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Try YouLoveSolar.Com in Nor Cal. I buy her refurbs to solve positive grounded system swaps Dave ******************************************************* Dave Lee, General Manager ROAM Solar, Inc. CSLB# 1000037 650-504-5680 (office), 650-701-3070 (sales) NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional TM On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 3:56 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > > > Now that RSS is required on almost every installation, I am having trouble > finding a plain old, non-battery, non-MLPE string inverter. This is for a > ground mount with the inverter mounted to the rack-- the only scenario I > can imagine that does not require RSS. I don’t need or want battery > capability, now or in the future. The project does not have shading issues > and the inverter will be mounted on the array, so no version of MLPE is > needed. > > > > My usual go-to would be the legacy SMA Sunny Boy series. I can’t dine one > for sale and I am getting the impression these are no longer available. > > > > What might you recommend for this new installation? > > > > This brings up the question: Of all the Sunny Boy installations I have > out there, the next time one fails, what am I going to replace it with? > > > > The new Sunny Boy Smarty-Pants series is not yet shipping, it is very > expensive and to replace a grid-connected inverter I don’t need battery > capabilities. > > > > I can’t use Solar Edge because I won’t want to unwire a complete array and > add optimizers. > > > > I am not that taken with Sol-Ark, not only because it includes the word > Arc in its name. I don’t need the battery capabilities, AC load center or > any of the other complexities. > > > > Any advice is appreciated. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Feb 22 19:44:33 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 17:44:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Non-battery string inverter options? In-Reply-To: <8bc4fcf3b40ae12638365f5e1b92d635@mail.gmail.com> References: <8bc4fcf3b40ae12638365f5e1b92d635@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7C8E3BA8-11A1-4F16-85D1-A4CBB371A579@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Feb 22 19:55:11 2024 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 16:55:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Non-battery string inverter options? In-Reply-To: <7C8E3BA8-11A1-4F16-85D1-A4CBB371A579@gmail.com> References: <8bc4fcf3b40ae12638365f5e1b92d635@mail.gmail.com> <7C8E3BA8-11A1-4F16-85D1-A4CBB371A579@gmail.com> Message-ID: The last I checked, Fronius's inverters were not compatible with current CA smart grid requirements, so won't be approved to connect to the grid, so be careful there. Maybe they have new models now? Tesla's 7.6 kW PV inverter is good, affordable, and can be installed without MLPE. It also has 4 independent MPPTs and can be software derated to lower AC values if necessary for the 120% rule. I believe BayWa and Greentech are distributing these inverters. https://www.tesla.com/support/energy/solar-inverter/tesla-solar-inverter Best, August On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 4:46 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi william > > Fronius 7.6 kw are in stock. > > I’ve installed a number of fronius with no issues. > > Jay > > On Feb 22, 2024, at 4:56 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Friends: > > > > Now that RSS is required on almost every installation, I am having trouble > finding a plain old, non-battery, non-MLPE string inverter. This is for a > ground mount with the inverter mounted to the rack-- the only scenario I > can imagine that does not require RSS. I don’t need or want battery > capability, now or in the future. The project does not have shading issues > and the inverter will be mounted on the array, so no version of MLPE is > needed. > > > > My usual go-to would be the legacy SMA Sunny Boy series. I can’t dine one > for sale and I am getting the impression these are no longer available. > > > > What might you recommend for this new installation? > > > > This brings up the question: Of all the Sunny Boy installations I have > out there, the next time one fails, what am I going to replace it with? > > > > The new Sunny Boy Smarty-Pants series is not yet shipping, it is very > expensive and to replace a grid-connected inverter I don’t need battery > capabilities. > > > > I can’t use Solar Edge because I won’t want to unwire a complete array and > add optimizers. > > > > I am not that taken with Sol-Ark, not only because it includes the word > Arc in its name. I don’t need the battery capabilities, AC load center or > any of the other complexities. > > > > Any advice is appreciated. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Thu Feb 22 21:34:11 2024 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 20:34:11 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Non-battery string inverter options? In-Reply-To: <8bc4fcf3b40ae12638365f5e1b92d635@mail.gmail.com> References: <8bc4fcf3b40ae12638365f5e1b92d635@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <022501da6600$c912da20$5b388e60$@solarcentex.com> Fronius Primo are great and up to 15kw 240v version. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of William Miller via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2024 5:51 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: William Miller Subject: [RE-wrenches] Non-battery string inverter options? Friends: Now that RSS is required on almost every installation, I am having trouble finding a plain old, non-battery, non-MLPE string inverter. This is for a ground mount with the inverter mounted to the rack-- the only scenario I can imagine that does not require RSS. I don’t need or want battery capability, now or in the future. The project does not have shading issues and the inverter will be mounted on the array, so no version of MLPE is needed. My usual go-to would be the legacy SMA Sunny Boy series. I can’t dine one for sale and I am getting the impression these are no longer available. What might you recommend for this new installation? This brings up the question: Of all the Sunny Boy installations I have out there, the next time one fails, what am I going to replace it with? The new Sunny Boy Smarty-Pants series is not yet shipping, it is very expensive and to replace a grid-connected inverter I don’t need battery capabilities. I can’t use Solar Edge because I won’t want to unwire a complete array and add optimizers. I am not that taken with Sol-Ark, not only because it includes the word Arc in its name. I don’t need the battery capabilities, AC load center or any of the other complexities. Any advice is appreciated. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Feb 22 21:44:59 2024 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 18:44:59 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Non-battery string inverter options? In-Reply-To: <8bc4fcf3b40ae12638365f5e1b92d635@mail.gmail.com> References: <8bc4fcf3b40ae12638365f5e1b92d635@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: The new SMA is a great option multi string, name brand, will be available soon (april) and they are taking orders now. Forward compliant. Jerry On Thu, Feb 22, 2024, 3:56 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > > > Now that RSS is required on almost every installation, I am having trouble > finding a plain old, non-battery, non-MLPE string inverter. This is for a > ground mount with the inverter mounted to the rack-- the only scenario I > can imagine that does not require RSS. I don’t need or want battery > capability, now or in the future. The project does not have shading issues > and the inverter will be mounted on the array, so no version of MLPE is > needed. > > > > My usual go-to would be the legacy SMA Sunny Boy series. I can’t dine one > for sale and I am getting the impression these are no longer available. > > > > What might you recommend for this new installation? > > > > This brings up the question: Of all the Sunny Boy installations I have > out there, the next time one fails, what am I going to replace it with? > > > > The new Sunny Boy Smarty-Pants series is not yet shipping, it is very > expensive and to replace a grid-connected inverter I don’t need battery > capabilities. > > > > I can’t use Solar Edge because I won’t want to unwire a complete array and > add optimizers. > > > > I am not that taken with Sol-Ark, not only because it includes the word > Arc in its name. I don’t need the battery capabilities, AC load center or > any of the other complexities. > > > > Any advice is appreciated. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Feb 23 01:20:44 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 22:20:44 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Non-battery string inverter options? In-Reply-To: References: <8bc4fcf3b40ae12638365f5e1b92d635@mail.gmail.com> <7C8E3BA8-11A1-4F16-85D1-A4CBB371A579@gmail.com> Message-ID: Friends: Thanks to all who replied to my plea for help. I know it takes time to reply to this list, time that can’t be monetized. So here are the options, as I see it: SolarLovesYou.com: Interesting site. It’s like a museum in there. A refurbished inverter is a great idea for a legacy install with old panels and wiring. I can’t offer refurbished for a new install with the warranty required. Tesla: This is a personal opinion, but I find Elon Musk to be a reprehensible person and it would be very hard for me to bring myself to put one penny in his pocket. I also thought you had to be Tesla certified to access Tesla products and that would be a non-starter for me. Fronius: It would also be hard for me to purchase a Fronius. We installed maybe 20 of the IG series and most of them failed multiple times. Fronius staff disparaged me to clients behind my back. Fronius would not send me warranty replacement parts unless I gave them my credit card number, which I refused on principal (I never once failed to return cores). We lost work because of the problems and conflicts. The product, the people and the policies may be better now, but the bitterness remains. (It is interesting that many of you have described positive experiences with Fronius. This is like the thread about lithium off-grid: There were those adamantly against it and others much the opposite. The only way I can explain the disparity of experiences with Fronius is that many of our failures where at sites within a few miles of the coast and the IG series has flow through ventilation and visibly thin or missing PCB coating.) The new SMA hybrid: Like I said, expensive and with a lot of unnecessary parts. The release date keeps getting pushed back so who knows when they will ship. Goodwe: One of my suppliers recommended the GoodWe A-MS Series GW7600A-MS 7.6kW. I have taken a cursory look and this may be the choice. Its soon since I posted my question, maybe more options will come to light. Thanks again everyone. William PS: There was a section in the 2011 code (690.35) that indicates that if you upgrade from a transformer based inverter the wiring has to either be PV rated or in a conduit. That section disappeared but the recollection reminds me to inspect wiring in older systems before replacing inverters. Wm Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* August Goers [mailto:august at luminalt.com] *Sent:* Thursday, February 22, 2024 4:55 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* william at millersolar.com; Jay *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Non-battery string inverter options? The last I checked, Fronius's inverters were not compatible with current CA smart grid requirements, so won't be approved to connect to the grid, so be careful there. Maybe they have new models now? Tesla's 7.6 kW PV inverter is good, affordable, and can be installed without MLPE. It also has 4 independent MPPTs and can be software derated to lower AC values if necessary for the 120% rule. I believe BayWa and Greentech are distributing these inverters. https://www.tesla.com/support/energy/solar-inverter/tesla-solar-inverter Best, August On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 4:46 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Hi william Fronius 7.6 kw are in stock. I’ve installed a number of fronius with no issues. Jay On Feb 22, 2024, at 4:56 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:  Friends: Now that RSS is required on almost every installation, I am having trouble finding a plain old, non-battery, non-MLPE string inverter. This is for a ground mount with the inverter mounted to the rack-- the only scenario I can imagine that does not require RSS. I don’t need or want battery capability, now or in the future. The project does not have shading issues and the inverter will be mounted on the array, so no version of MLPE is needed. My usual go-to would be the legacy SMA Sunny Boy series. I can’t dine one for sale and I am getting the impression these are no longer available. What might you recommend for this new installation? This brings up the question: Of all the Sunny Boy installations I have out there, the next time one fails, what am I going to replace it with? The new Sunny Boy Smarty-Pants series is not yet shipping, it is very expensive and to replace a grid-connected inverter I don’t need battery capabilities. I can’t use Solar Edge because I won’t want to unwire a complete array and add optimizers. I am not that taken with Sol-Ark, not only because it includes the word Arc in its name. I don’t need the battery capabilities, AC load center or any of the other complexities. Any advice is appreciated. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Feb 23 07:09:30 2024 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2024 07:09:30 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Non-battery string inverter options? Message-ID: Fronius.Solis-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: William Miller via RE-wrenchesDate: Thu, Feb 22, 2024 6:56 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: William Miller;Subject:[RE-wrenches] Non-battery string inverter options?Friends: Now that RSS is required on almost every installation, I am having trouble finding a plain old, non-battery, non-MLPE string inverter.  This is for a ground mount with the inverter mounted to the rack-- the only scenario I can imagine that does not require RSS.  I don’t need or want battery capability, now or in the future.  The project does not have shading issues and the inverter will be mounted on the array, so no version of MLPE is needed. My usual go-to would be the legacy SMA Sunny Boy series.  I can’t dine one for sale and I am getting the impression these are no longer available. What might you recommend for this new installation? This brings up the question:  Of all the Sunny Boy installations I  have out there, the next time one fails, what am I going to replace it with?   The new Sunny Boy Smarty-Pants series is not yet shipping, it is very expensive and to replace a grid-connected inverter I don’t need battery capabilities. I can’t use Solar Edge because I won’t want to unwire a complete array and add optimizers. I am not that taken with Sol-Ark, not only because it includes the word Arc in its name.  I don’t need the battery capabilities, AC load center or any of the other complexities. Any advice is appreciated. William Miller Solar17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422805-438-5600www.millersolar.comCA Lic. 773985   -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Fri Feb 23 10:37:00 2024 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2024 07:37:00 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Non-battery string inverter options? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Growatt MIN. They're capable of battery connection but work fine as a string inverter at a decent price. Brad On Fri, Feb 23, 2024 at 4:09 AM Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Fronius. > Solis > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > *From: *William Miller via RE-wrenches > *Date: *Thu, Feb 22, 2024 6:56 PM > *To: *RE-wrenches; > *Cc: *William Miller; > *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Non-battery string inverter options? > > Friends: > > > > Now that RSS is required on almost every installation, I am having trouble > finding a plain old, non-battery, non-MLPE string inverter. This is for a > ground mount with the inverter mounted to the rack-- the only scenario I > can imagine that does not require RSS. I don’t need or want battery > capability, now or in the future. The project does not have shading issues > and the inverter will be mounted on the array, so no version of MLPE is > needed. > > > > My usual go-to would be the legacy SMA Sunny Boy series. I can’t dine one > for sale and I am getting the impression these are no longer available. > > > > What might you recommend for this new installation? > > > > This brings up the question: Of all the Sunny Boy installations I have > out there, the next time one fails, what am I going to replace it with? > > > > The new Sunny Boy Smarty-Pants series is not yet shipping, it is very > expensive and to replace a grid-connected inverter I don’t need battery > capabilities. > > > > I can’t use Solar Edge because I won’t want to unwire a complete array and > add optimizers. > > > > I am not that taken with Sol-Ark, not only because it includes the word > Arc in its name. I don’t need the battery capabilities, AC load center or > any of the other complexities. > > > > Any advice is appreciated. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri Feb 23 10:57:26 2024 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2024 10:57:26 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] $300 + transmission fee! Message-ID: Hello All, A system we installed several years ago is on an old school building that has been repurposed to office space and small shops. The loads are very small. The electric bill, during the short days of the year with lots of clouds (very little solar), was around $30. Suddenly the electric bill came with a $300+ fee for transmission. AEP claimed that the load, at some point, went over a certain amount of power, so that the company had to charge for equipment that would handle that load year around. No equipment changes have been made. The service is 200 A. Has anyone else encountered this? I wonder if there is any other type of rate schedule the building could be put on to eliminate this problem. AEP is not forthcoming about rate schedules or this issue. Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional -- From pgiroux at mindspring.com Fri Feb 23 11:12:00 2024 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2024 11:12:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] $300 + transmission fee! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003101da6673$086415a0$192c40e0$@mindspring.com> Drake AEP should be able to provide your client ( if they are the one asking ) with a real time readout showing the "spike / load increase " and what actual equipment they had to install. Sounds a bit dodgy. What's next, special fees for homeowners who kick on the well pump flushing a toilet while using a hairdryer at the same time? Peter Giroux ASAE -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, February 23, 2024 10:57 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] $300 + transmission fee! Hello All, A system we installed several years ago is on an old school building that has been repurposed to office space and small shops. The loads are very small. The electric bill, during the short days of the year with lots of clouds (very little solar), was around $30. Suddenly the electric bill came with a $300+ fee for transmission. AEP claimed that the load, at some point, went over a certain amount of power, so that the company had to charge for equipment that would handle that load year around. No equipment changes have been made. The service is 200 A. Has anyone else encountered this? I wonder if there is any other type of rate schedule the building could be put on to eliminate this problem. AEP is not forthcoming about rate schedules or this issue. Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sun Feb 25 12:12:03 2024 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2024 12:12:03 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: $300 + transmission fee! In-Reply-To: References: <003101da6673$086415a0$192c40e0$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Peter, Right, that is about it. The fee is a monthly fee. It will take a year of keeping the spike below that before the fee will be dropped from the bill. Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional --- On 2024-02-23 11:12, pgiroux at mindspring.com wrote: > Drake > > AEP should be able to provide your client ( if they are the one > asking ) with a real time readout showing the "spike / load increase " > and what actual equipment they had to install. Sounds a bit dodgy. > What's next, special fees for homeowners who kick on the well pump > flushing a toilet while using a hairdryer at the same time? > > Peter Giroux > ASAE > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On > Behalf Of Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches > Sent: Friday, February 23, 2024 10:57 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] $300 + transmission fee! > > Hello All, > > A system we installed several years ago is on an old school building > that has been repurposed to office space and small shops. The loads > are very small. The electric bill, during the short days of the year > with lots of clouds (very little solar), was around $30. > > Suddenly the electric bill came with a $300+ fee for transmission. AEP > claimed that the load, at some point, went over a certain amount of > power, so that the company had to charge for equipment that would > handle that load year around. No equipment changes have been made. The > service is 200 A. > > Has anyone else encountered this? I wonder if there is any other type > of rate schedule the building could be put on to eliminate this > problem. > AEP is not forthcoming about rate schedules or this issue. > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 NABCEP Certified PV > Installation Professional > > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From william at millersolar.com Sun Feb 25 13:21:50 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2024 10:21:50 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: $300 + transmission fee! In-Reply-To: References: <003101da6673$086415a0$192c40e0$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Friends: I am pondering a plan to prevent usage spikes. It would involve installing a battery inverter that has true generator support. Connect the utility to the generator input on the inverter and program the generator amps to just below the threshold that incurs peak demand charges. If the load exceeds that amount occasionally the inverter supplies the difference. The battery is sized to sustain the shortfall for the expected duration. The potential to save $300 a month provides a budget for the project. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Sun, Feb 25, 2024 at 9:12 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Peter, > > Right, that is about it. The fee is a monthly fee. It will take a year > of keeping the spike below that before the fee will be dropped from the > bill. > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > > --- > > > On 2024-02-23 11:12, pgiroux at mindspring.com wrote: > > Drake > > > > AEP should be able to provide your client ( if they are the one > > asking ) with a real time readout showing the "spike / load increase " > > and what actual equipment they had to install. Sounds a bit dodgy. > > What's next, special fees for homeowners who kick on the well pump > > flushing a toilet while using a hairdryer at the same time? > > > > Peter Giroux > > ASAE > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: RE-wrenches On > > Behalf Of Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches > > Sent: Friday, February 23, 2024 10:57 AM > > To: RE-wrenches > > Cc: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] $300 + transmission fee! > > > > Hello All, > > > > A system we installed several years ago is on an old school building > > that has been repurposed to office space and small shops. The loads > > are very small. The electric bill, during the short days of the year > > with lots of clouds (very little solar), was around $30. > > > > Suddenly the electric bill came with a $300+ fee for transmission. AEP > > claimed that the load, at some point, went over a certain amount of > > power, so that the company had to charge for equipment that would > > handle that load year around. No equipment changes have been made. The > > service is 200 A. > > > > Has anyone else encountered this? I wonder if there is any other type > > of rate schedule the building could be put on to eliminate this > > problem. > > AEP is not forthcoming about rate schedules or this issue. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Drake > > > > Drake Chamberlin > > Athens Electric LLC > > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 NABCEP Certified PV > > Installation Professional > > > > > > > > > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Feb 26 10:01:55 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2024 08:01:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: $300 + transmission fee! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1AE6696F-4DFA-4628-A812-7BA15B7C09F3@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Mon Feb 26 12:08:59 2024 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2024 09:08:59 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: $300 + transmission fee! In-Reply-To: <1AE6696F-4DFA-4628-A812-7BA15B7C09F3@gmail.com> References: <1AE6696F-4DFA-4628-A812-7BA15B7C09F3@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, there are three major utilities in CA. I don’t know much about LADPW nor SDGE. PGE executes demand charges depending on the ‘rate schedule’ applied to a specific meter. Customers can request to change their rate schedule, sometimes with significant financial savings just doing that. My understanding is that they go by 15 minute intervals for demand charges. In fact if the demand exceeds the threshold for just 15 minutes, the demand charge applies as if the load had been that high for the entire month. Caveat: I’m more of an engineer than a policy and sales guy. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Mon Feb 26 12:17:18 2024 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2024 09:17:18 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: $300 + transmission fee! In-Reply-To: References: <003101da6673$086415a0$192c40e0$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Hi William, I’ve never done this but talked to the electrical/electronic engineer who did:: he took all the CT current, and voltage inputs and ran them into a small cheap Linux PC, which was easy to find support and used a common programming language. These guys only used it for a custom monitoring platform. But as output from the computer, I think you could control a couple relays that will force a transfer switch to change position, start a generator, etc. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Feb 28 11:45:29 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2024 09:45:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 30% ITC Message-ID: A question maybe someone/s can answer or offer up some thoughts. A neighbor who’s an economist asked me the following question Does the 30% ITC increase the cost of solar? By which he ment that are installers, wholesalers, etc increasing the cost of product and installations because of the ITC? I figure it adds something but not 30%. However I have no data to go on. Anyone know anything I might tell him or a link to a study etc? Thanks in advance Jay From andrew at greenwired.com Wed Feb 28 14:48:46 2024 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew Perkins) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2024 11:48:46 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Non-battery string inverter options? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <18df14327b0.aff5901f1528752.2033535477925777778@greenwired.com> I have been selling Goodwe, seems pretty decent so far, next best thing price wise of a good ol SMA. The only issue is they have a 5kw as their smallest but its pretty decently priced. They have a built in tigo transmitter too.  Andrew Perkins Greenwired Store Manager/Service Tech​ P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 http://www.greenwired.com http://qr.codes/qTa1Mh ---- On Fri, 23 Feb 2024 04:09:30 -0800 Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches wrote --- Fronius. Solis -Glenn Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. ------ Original message------ From: William Miller via RE-wrenches Date: Thu, Feb 22, 2024 6:56 PM To: RE-wrenches; Cc: William Miller; Subject:[RE-wrenches] Non-battery string inverter options? Friends:   Now that RSS is required on almost every installation, I am having trouble finding a plain old, non-battery, non-MLPE string inverter.  This is for a ground mount with the inverter mounted to the rack-- the only scenario I can imagine that does not require RSS.  I don’t need or want battery capability, now or in the future.  The project does not have shading issues and the inverter will be mounted on the array, so no version of MLPE is needed.   My usual go-to would be the legacy SMA Sunny Boy series.  I can’t dine one for sale and I am getting the impression these are no longer available.   What might you recommend for this new installation?   This brings up the question:  Of all the Sunny Boy installations I  have out there, the next time one fails, what am I going to replace it with?    The new Sunny Boy Smarty-Pants series is not yet shipping, it is very expensive and to replace a grid-connected inverter I don’t need battery capabilities.   I can’t use Solar Edge because I won’t want to unwire a complete array and add optimizers.   I am not that taken with Sol-Ark, not only because it includes the word Arc in its name.  I don’t need the battery capabilities, AC load center or any of the other complexities.   Any advice is appreciated.   William   Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 tel:805-438-5600 http://www.millersolar.com/ CA Lic. 773985     _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1596050015677007_1701277005.png Type: image/png Size: 16298 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1667767630048000_655845146.png Type: image/png Size: 56703 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Feb 28 14:39:26 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2024 11:39:26 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electrolyte level measurement Message-ID: Friends: In spite of all of this talk about Li batteries, I still maintain a whole lot of flooded cells. I have always struggled with getting accurate measurements of the electrolyte level. Staring past a flashlight down into a cell looking with one eye through scratched safety glasses, it is hard to see just how high (or low) the level is. I am cogitating on a few ideas to make this easier and more accurate, but in the meantime, what are your favorite tricks for this? TIA William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Feb 28 15:04:18 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2024 15:04:18 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 30% ITC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I can tell you with absolute certainty that the ITC increases the "purchase price" of some systems because the finance companies are lumping in their interest in the way of dealer fees. This buydown of the interest rates is being funded partially by the taxpayer. In my opinion, this is not in our best interest (as taxpayers). Other than that, I think it would be a tough argument to say that the ITC increases the cost of solar. While it surely increases demand, it has also invited tremendous competition and economies of scale. If the ITC was lost, I think pricing would have to increase to make margins workable at a lower installation volume for the companies that are able to survive. This is all speculative, but I do have a degree with a major in Finance and a minor in economics, so I'm not completely speaking out of school. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Feb 28, 2024 at 11:47 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > A question maybe someone/s can answer or offer up some thoughts. > > A neighbor who’s an economist asked me the following question > > Does the 30% ITC increase the cost of solar? > > By which he ment that are installers, wholesalers, etc increasing the cost > of product and installations because of the ITC? > > I figure it adds something but not 30%. However I have no data to go on. > > Anyone know anything I might tell him or a link to a study etc? > > Thanks in advance > > Jay > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Wed Feb 28 15:05:30 2024 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2024 12:05:30 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electrolyte level measurement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here is my cheap version of a water-filling kit... Get yourself a new weed sprayer from a hardware store 1-2 gallons will work the best. Cut the nozzle off to 8-10 inches in length (or whatever works for you) so the water comes out as a stream instead of a spray. Mark the Nozzle with colored electrical tape for the depth of the fill tube + 1/4 to 1/2 an inch. I would suggest the length of the fill tube + 1/2 an inch for Rolls batteries.) For example, the Rolls L16's fill tube is 1 inch so I would make the mark 1.5 inches. Now, when you go to fill your batteries, you line the mark up with the top of the battery, and while looking into the cell, when the water level touches the bottom of the nozzle, you shut off the flow and move to the next cell. Some people have attached a small LED light to the wand, but I use a headlamp when working in a battery room. Here is a link to one that I'd use... https://www.amazon.com/Chapin-International-20000-1-Gallon-Translucent/dp/B000E28UQU/ref=sr_1_4?crid=TEWUZPEEE5WX&keywords=1+gallon+ weed+sprayer &qid=1707149489&s=home-garden&sprefix=1+gallon+wee%2Cgarden%2C250&sr=1-4 One last thing... the sprayer must be new. You cannot use one that has already had chemicals in it. This is not perfect, but its easier than using a funnel... Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Wed, Feb 28, 2024 at 11:59 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > > > In spite of all of this talk about Li batteries, I still maintain a whole > lot of flooded cells. I have always struggled with getting accurate > measurements of the electrolyte level. Staring past a flashlight down into > a cell looking with one eye through scratched safety glasses, it is hard to > see just how high (or low) the level is. I am cogitating on a few ideas to > make this easier and more accurate, but in the meantime, what are your > favorite tricks for this? > > > > TIA > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Feb 28 15:26:22 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2024 13:26:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electrolyte level measurement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3218CF4F-FBCC-4FA7-B26C-BA6BBD2D48F7@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roy at four-winds-energy.com Wed Feb 28 15:35:18 2024 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2024 15:35:18 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electrolyte level measurement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3b7d88ef-a602-4696-adf5-bf096ecb9b9e@four-winds-energy.com> And to add to Steve's good advice, make sure the sprayer has a plastic wand. Some are made with brass wands and that can add a degree of excitement that I can live without. I also only fill when the batteries are mostly charged. That lessens the chance of the cell being overfilled as the state of charge increases. Oh...and a headlamp helps to see the fluid level, just cock you head and you'll find just the right angle to see the fluid. Roy Butler Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don’t. “The less people know, the more stubbornly they know it.” Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. On 2/28/2024 3:05 PM, Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches wrote: > Here is my cheap version of a water-filling kit... > > Get yourself a new weed sprayer from a hardware store 1-2 gallons will > work the best. > > Cut the nozzle off to 8-10 inches in length (or whatever works for > you) so the water comes out as a stream instead of a spray. > > Mark the Nozzle with colored electrical tape for the depth of the fill > tube +  1/4 to 1/2 an inch.  I would suggest the length of the fill > tube + 1/2 an inch for Rolls batteries.)  For example, the Rolls L16's > fill tube is 1 inch so I would make the mark 1.5 inches. > > Now, when you go to fill your batteries, you line the mark up with the > top of the battery, and while looking into the cell, when the water > level touches the bottom of the nozzle, you shut off the flow and move > to the next cell. > > Some people have attached a small LED light to the wand, but I use a > headlamp when working in a battery room. > > Here is a link to one that I'd use... > > https://www.amazon.com/Chapin-International-20000-1-Gallon-Translucent/dp/B000E28UQU/ref=sr_1_4?crid=TEWUZPEEE5WX&keywords=1+gallon+weed+sprayer&qid=1707149489&s=home-garden&sprefix=1+gallon+wee%2Cgarden%2C250&sr=1-4 > > > One last thing... the sprayer must be new. You cannot use one that has > already had chemicals in it.   This is not perfect, but its easier > than using a funnel... > > > > > Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager > t+1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 > f+1.902.597.8447 esteve at surrette.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only > for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or > privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other > use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information > is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the > sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > On Wed, Feb 28, 2024 at 11:59 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Friends: > > In spite of all of this talk about Li batteries, I still maintain > a whole lot of flooded cells.  I have always struggled with > getting accurate measurements of the electrolyte level.  Staring > past a flashlight down into a cell looking with one eye through > scratched safety glasses, it is hard to see just how high (or low) > the level is.  I am cogitating on a few ideas to make this easier > and more accurate, but in the meantime, what are your favorite > tricks for this? > > TIA > > William > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Wed Feb 28 16:22:53 2024 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2024 13:22:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electrolyte level measurement In-Reply-To: <3b7d88ef-a602-4696-adf5-bf096ecb9b9e@four-winds-energy.com> References: <3b7d88ef-a602-4696-adf5-bf096ecb9b9e@four-winds-energy.com> Message-ID: <1709155373.313630887@webmail.finestplanet.com> Another option for grid tied with battery based systems, is to use flooded lead calcium batteries which last 20 years and only need about 20 ml/ cell, added every 3 years. Todd On Wednesday, February 28, 2024 12:35pm, "Roy Butler via RE-wrenches" said: And to add to Steve's good advice, make sure the sprayer has a plastic wand. Some are made with brass wands and that can add a degree of excitement that I can live without. I also only fill when the batteries are mostly charged. That lessens the chance of the cell being overfilled as the state of charge increases. Oh...and a headlamp helps to see the fluid level, just cock you head and you'll find just the right angle to see the fluid. Roy ButlerFour Winds Renewable Energy, LLC8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Wed Feb 28 23:02:08 2024 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2024 20:02:08 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 30% ITC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I thought the primary goal of the federal ITC was to address climate change. Thus as a citizen of Earth, increased PV adoption is success regardless of whatever financial implications arise from a taxpayer perspective. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Feb 29 00:37:13 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2024 21:37:13 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electrolyte level measurement In-Reply-To: <1709155373.313630887@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <3b7d88ef-a602-4696-adf5-bf096ecb9b9e@four-winds-energy.com> <1709155373.313630887@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: Todd: This is about batteries that exist. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Wed, Feb 28, 2024 at 1:23 PM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Another option for grid tied with battery based systems, is to use flooded > lead calcium batteries which last 20 years and only need about 20 ml/ cell, > added every 3 years. > > Todd > > > > On Wednesday, February 28, 2024 12:35pm, "Roy Butler via RE-wrenches" < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> said: > > > And to add to Steve's good advice, make sure the sprayer has a plastic > wand. Some are made with brass > wands and that can add a degree of excitement that I can live without. > > I also only fill when the batteries are mostly charged. That lessens the > chance of the cell being overfilled > as the state of charge increases. Oh...and a headlamp helps to see the > fluid level, just cock you head > and you'll find just the right angle to see the fluid. > > Roy Butler Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC 8902 Route 46 > , > Arkport, NY 14807 > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Thu Feb 29 01:19:04 2024 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2024 22:19:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electrolyte level measurement Message-ID: <1709187544.11845768@webmail.finestplanet.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 160277 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Feb 29 01:33:37 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2024 22:33:37 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electrolyte level measurement In-Reply-To: <1709187544.11845768@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <1709187544.11845768@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: Tod: Thanks but I think you need to reread the question. I asked for input on how to more easily check electrolyte liquid level in flooded batteries. These are batteries that are already in place in multiple locations. I got responses on how to fill batteries or what type of batteries to purchase. I am not going to advise my clients to replace perfectly good batteries. I also have a pretty good tool for filling batteries. Maybe we should just let this thread die… William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Todd Cory via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Wednesday, February 28, 2024 10:19 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* toddcory at finestplanet.com *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Electrolyte level measurement https://www.cdtechno.com/search?query=lead+calcium&refinementList=%5B%5D&page=1 Lead-Calcium On Wednesday, February 28, 2024 9:37pm, "William Miller via RE-wrenches" < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> said: Todd: This is about batteries that exist. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Wed, Feb 28, 2024 at 1:23 PM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Another option for grid tied with battery based systems, is to use flooded lead calcium batteries which last 20 years and only need about 20 ml/ cell, added every 3 years. Todd Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 160277 bytes Desc: not available URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Thu Feb 29 04:26:18 2024 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Thu, 29 Feb 2024 01:26:18 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electrolyte level measurement In-Reply-To: References: <1709187544.11845768@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: THANK YOU TODD for teaching me about an existing battery chemistry I didn’t previously know about. Awesome! David Quattro CA License # 954020. C-10, C-46 ph (415) 312-2661 www.quattrosolar.com On Wed, Feb 28, 2024 at 10:33 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Tod: > > > > Thanks but I think you need to reread the question. I asked for input on > how to more easily check electrolyte liquid level in flooded batteries. > These are batteries that are already in place in multiple locations. > > > > I got responses on how to fill batteries or what type of batteries to > purchase. I am not going to advise my clients to replace perfectly good > batteries. I also have a pretty good tool > > for filling batteries. > > > > Maybe we should just let this thread die… > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Todd Cory via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 28, 2024 10:19 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* toddcory at finestplanet.com > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Electrolyte level measurement > > > > > https://www.cdtechno.com/search?query=lead+calcium&refinementList=%5B%5D&page=1 > > > Lead-Calcium > > > > > > > On Wednesday, February 28, 2024 9:37pm, "William Miller via RE-wrenches" < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> said: > > Todd: > > This is about batteries that exist. > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > > On Wed, Feb 28, 2024 at 1:23 PM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Another option for grid tied with battery based systems, is to use flooded > lead calcium batteries which last 20 years and only need about 20 ml/ cell, > added every 3 years. > > Todd > > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 160277 bytes Desc: not available URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Thu Feb 29 09:31:32 2024 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Thu, 29 Feb 2024 06:31:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Flooded_Lead_Calcium_Batteries_=28was_Re?= =?utf-8?q?=3A__Electrolyte_level_measurement=29?= In-Reply-To: References: <1709187544.11845768@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: <1709217092.609226944@webmail.finestplanet.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: img-1.png Type: image/png Size: 160277 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Thu Feb 29 11:54:47 2024 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Thu, 29 Feb 2024 08:54:47 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flooded Lead Calcium Batteries (was Re: Electrolyte level measurement) In-Reply-To: <1709217092.609226944@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <1709187544.11845768@webmail.finestplanet.com> <1709217092.609226944@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: The C&D flooded calcium alloy batteries are indeed a good choice for float service backup batteries if flooded batteries are acceptable for the installation. I've seen these and other similar batteries last far longer than 20 years. Anyone remember the round AT&T cells? I've always promoted the East Penn Unigy II AGM batteries for the same reasons, except they are sealed instead of flooded. They are also 20 year batteries in float backup operation. They have extremely low self discharge so maintain grid tie efficiency. They take up much less floor space than the flooded versions, and don't require acid control or ventilation measures. Brad Bassett (ret.) On Thu, Feb 29, 2024 at 6:32 AM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > You are welcome! > > With the recent thread disparaging the "new and better" LFP batteries, I > thought I would remind folks about a ~100 year old battery chemistry that > Windy Danoff originally introduced me to. These have been, and still are > the mainstay for telecom and commercial power generation backup. > > Note that these are considered "shallow cycle" (50%) batteries, so not > appropriate for off grid, but they are the perfect battery for grid tied > systems which float 99% of the time. They are very low self discharge, last > 20 years, and basically consume no water... which is why I suggested these > as a possible solution to Bill's thread about battery watering. > > In ~4 years, when my existing 16 year old set of Surette FC420's need > replacing, I will happily replace them with the C&D version. I had > considered LFP, but the problems wrenches are having, combined with the > expense has me sticking with what works. The only real advantage of LFP is > lower weight/ kWh, but for stationary batteries that doesn’t matter, plus > flooded lead calcium’s are about 1/3 the price. > > Todd > > > > > > > On Thursday, February 29, 2024 1:26am, "david quattro via RE-wrenches" < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> said: > > THANK YOU TODD > for teaching me about an existing battery chemistry I didn’t previously > know about. Awesome! > > David Quattro > CA License # 954020. C-10, C-46 > ph (415) 312-2661 > www.quattrosolar.com > > > On Wed, Feb 28, 2024 at 10:33 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Todd: >> >> >> >> Thanks but I think you need to reread the question. I asked for input on >> how to more easily check electrolyte liquid level in flooded batteries. >> These are batteries that are already in place in multiple locations. >> >> >> >> I got responses on how to fill batteries or what type of batteries to >> purchase. I am not going to advise my clients to replace perfectly good >> batteries. I also have a pretty good tool >> >> for filling batteries. >> >> >> >> Maybe we should just let this thread die… >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Todd Cory via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 28, 2024 10:19 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* toddcory at finestplanet.com >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Electrolyte level measurement >> >> >> >> >> https://www.cdtechno.com/search?query=lead+calcium&refinementList=%5B%5D&page=1 >> >> >> Lead-Calcium >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wednesday, February 28, 2024 9:37pm, "William Miller via RE-wrenches" < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> said: >> >> Todd: >> >> This is about batteries that exist. >> >> William Miller >> Miller Solar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> >> >> >> On Wed, Feb 28, 2024 at 1:23 PM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Another option for grid tied with battery based systems, is to use >> flooded lead calcium batteries which last 20 years and only need about 20 >> ml/ cell, added every 3 years. >> >> Todd >> >> >> >> >> Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: img-1.png Type: image/png Size: 160277 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Feb 29 13:26:34 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 29 Feb 2024 10:26:34 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flooded Lead Calcium Batteries (was Re: Electrolyte level measurement) In-Reply-To: References: <1709187544.11845768@webmail.finestplanet.com> <1709217092.609226944@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: Hi Brad, I would add to what you wrote that some ventilation measures were required on both types of battery below in a failure mode. That was my experience with them back in the day. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [5]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [6] [5] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-02-29 8:54 am, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches wrote: > The C&D flooded calcium alloy batteries are indeed a good choice for > float service backup batteries if flooded batteries are acceptable for > the installation. I've seen these and other similar batteries last far > longer than 20 years. Anyone remember the round AT&T cells? > > I've always promoted the East Penn Unigy II AGM batteries for the same > reasons, except they are sealed instead of flooded. They are also 20 > year batteries in float backup operation. They have extremely low self > discharge so maintain grid tie efficiency. They take up much less floor > space than the flooded versions, and don't require acid control or > ventilation measures. > > Brad Bassett (ret.) > > On Thu, Feb 29, 2024 at 6:32 AM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > You are welcome! > > With the recent thread disparaging the "new and better" LFP batteries, > I thought I would remind folks about a ~100 year old battery chemistry > that Windy Danoff originally introduced me to. These have been, and > still are the mainstay for telecom and commercial power generation > backup. > > Note that these are considered "shallow cycle" (50%) batteries, so not > appropriate for off grid, but they are the perfect battery for grid > tied systems which float 99% of the time. They are very low self > discharge, last 20 years, and basically consume no water... which is > why I suggested these as a possible solution to Bill's thread about > battery watering. > > In ~4 years, when my existing 16 year old set of Surette FC420's need > replacing, I will happily replace them with the C&D version. I had > considered LFP, but the problems wrenches are having, combined with the > expense has me sticking with what works. The only real advantage of LFP > is lower weight/ kWh, but for stationary batteries that doesn't matter, > plus flooded lead calcium's are about 1/3 the price. > > Todd > > On Thursday, February 29, 2024 1:26am, "david quattro via RE-wrenches" > said: > > THANK YOU TODD > for teaching me about an existing battery chemistry I didn't previously > know about. Awesome! > > David Quattro > CA License # 954020. C-10, C-46 > ph (415) 312-2661 > www.quattrosolar.com [1] > > On Wed, Feb 28, 2024 at 10:33 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Todd: > > Thanks but I think you need to reread the question. I asked for input > on how to more easily check electrolyte liquid level in flooded > batteries. These are batteries that are already in place in multiple > locations. > > I got responses on how to fill batteries or what type of batteries to > purchase. I am not going to advise my clients to replace perfectly > good batteries. I also have a pretty good tool [2] for filling > batteries. > > Maybe we should just let this thread die... > > William > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com [3] > > CA Lic. 773985 > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Todd Cory via RE-wrenches > Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2024 10:19 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: toddcory at finestplanet.com > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Electrolyte level measurement > > https://www.cdtechno.com/search?query=lead+calcium&refinementList=%5B%5D&page=1 > > Lead-Calcium > > On Wednesday, February 28, 2024 9:37pm, "William Miller via > RE-wrenches" said: > > Todd: > > This is about batteries that exist. > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com [4] > > On Wed, Feb 28, 2024 at 1:23 PM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Another option for grid tied with battery based systems, is to use > flooded lead calcium batteries which last 20 years and only need about > 20 ml/ cell, added every 3 years. > > Todd > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.quattrosolar.com/ [2] https://www.phlsci.com/product-lines/battery-watering-gun/model-gun-x/ [3] http://www.millersolar.com/ [4] http://www.millersolar.com [5] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [6] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: img-1.png Type: image/png Size: 160277 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Feb 29 16:12:20 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 29 Feb 2024 13:12:20 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Electrolyte Level Measuring Message-ID: Friends: Thanks to everyone who responded to the original question. The information was valuable but did not directly approach the question. I apologize if my replies hinted at frustration. I know everyone is trying to help. This subject is important enough to me that I thought I’d take another run at explaining what I am trying to accomplish: I do not like looking into battery cells. It is dangerous. With some of the larger battery banks looking into the cell requires climbing up onto and kneeling on the tops of the batteries, increasing the danger and adding discomfort and future wardrobe malfunctions. Determining electrolyte level by looking into cells gives inaccurate results. Safety glasses help but spilling acid on the unprotected area of my face around the glasses is not ideal. A face shield provides better protection but when bending my neck sharply downwards the shield bumps into my chest, is uncomfortable and obstructs my view. There has to be a better way! Here is where I am heading with an idea to provide a safer way to measure electrolyte levels. I have mocked up a prototype in my kitchen to illustrate. The idea is a float with a scale attached. The scale is calibrated to show the desired fluid level and how much too low or high the level is. I was hoping someone had already gone down this road and I could steal- I mean learn from- their ideas. I will keep trying to create something viable. Already I have something I can use, it’s just a bit hokey. Ideally whatever I conjure up can also be deployed while filling batteries by whatever means you have at hand so the process can be safer, quicker and more accurate. Everyone who works with flooded batteries needs this. I hope this explanation makes more sense. William PS: I have seen electrolyte level gauges on the internet. None that I have seen quite fit the bill. Here is one that is not adjustable but comes in two fixed levels. If you know of a product that does what I need, or at least can spark some creativity, please let me know. PPS: Ideally whatever I come up with is cheap enough that one or two can be left in place to allow checking levels at a glance. Wm Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 108306 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Feb 29 17:02:22 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 29 Feb 2024 15:02:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Electrolyte Level Measuring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi William; I agree with your original premise that checking levels is difficult by eye.  Also, I would add that many of my clients chronically over fill the cells, leading to acid loss and severe corrosion of the connectors, battery box, and floor. Your float is an interesting idea, but personally I think you're inviting more acid contact not less, by putting the probe down into each cell.  This is similar to checking specific gravity.   I think a no contact method, like a laser measuring device would be the way to go.  I see several on Amazon in the $25 range.  I have a Bosch that's quite accurate; I tried it on some bottles with fluid in them, and it seemed to work well.  I'll try and remember to take out with me on the next job with FLA. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 2/29/2024 2:12 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Friends: > > Thanks to everyone who responded to the original question.  The > information was valuable but did not directly approach the question.  > I apologize if my replies hinted at frustration. I know everyone is > trying to help. > > This subject is important enough to me that I thought I’d take another > run at explaining what I am trying to accomplish: > > I do not like looking into battery cells.  It is dangerous. With some > of the larger battery banks looking into the cell requires climbing up > onto and kneeling on the tops of the batteries, increasing the danger > and adding discomfort and future wardrobe malfunctions.  Determining > electrolyte level by looking into cells gives inaccurate results. > > Safety glasses help but spilling acid on the unprotected area of my > face around the glasses is not ideal.  A face shield provides better > protection but when bending my neck sharply downwards the shield bumps > into my chest, is uncomfortable and obstructs my view. > > There has to be a better way! > > Here is where I am heading with an idea to provide a safer way to > measure electrolyte levels.  I have mocked up a prototype in my > kitchen to illustrate. > > > The idea is a float with a scale attached.  The scale is calibrated to > show the desired fluid level and how much too low or high the level is. > > I was hoping someone had already gone down this road and I could > steal- I mean learn from- their ideas. > > I will keep trying to create something viable.  Already I have > something I can use, it’s just a bit hokey.  Ideally whatever I > conjure up can also be deployed while filling batteries by whatever > means you have at hand so the process can be safer, quicker and more > accurate.  Everyone who works with flooded batteries needs this. > > I hope this explanation makes more sense. > > William > > PS: I have seen electrolyte level gauges on the internet.  None that I > have seen quite fit the bill. Here is one > > that is not adjustable but comes in two fixed levels.  If you know of > a product that does what I need, or at least can spark some > creativity, please let me know. > > PPS: Ideally whatever I come up with is cheap enough that one or two > can be left in place to allow checking levels at a glance. > > Wm > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mark at hurshtown.com Fri Mar 1 08:29:52 2024 From: mark at hurshtown.com (Mark Downing) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2024 13:29:52 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Electrolyte Level Measuring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I found these photo sensors on Wish for $2.69. Detection distance is adjustable from 3 to 80cm. Run on 5V supply. I bought a couple and they work great. Cheap enough to buy a few and play with them. I wonder if they will detect the surface of a liquid? If so, this could easily be used by mounting it through a plastic disk and touching it to the cell opening. (Uh oh, looks like I just gave myself another job . . .) [Adjustable, Cars, proximity, Robot] From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Ray Walters via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, February 29, 2024 5:02 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: Ray Walters Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Electrolyte Level Measuring Hi William; I agree with your original premise that checking levels is difficult by eye. Also, I would add that many of my clients chronically over fill the cells, leading to acid loss and severe corrosion of the connectors, battery box, and floor. Your float is an interesting idea, but personally I think you're inviting more acid contact not less, by putting the probe down into each cell. This is similar to checking specific gravity. I think a no contact method, like a laser measuring device would be the way to go. I see several on Amazon in the $25 range. I have a Bosch that's quite accurate; I tried it on some bottles with fluid in them, and it seemed to work well. I'll try and remember to take out with me on the next job with FLA. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 2/29/2024 2:12 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: Friends: Thanks to everyone who responded to the original question. The information was valuable but did not directly approach the question. I apologize if my replies hinted at frustration. I know everyone is trying to help. This subject is important enough to me that I thought I’d take another run at explaining what I am trying to accomplish: I do not like looking into battery cells. It is dangerous. With some of the larger battery banks looking into the cell requires climbing up onto and kneeling on the tops of the batteries, increasing the danger and adding discomfort and future wardrobe malfunctions. Determining electrolyte level by looking into cells gives inaccurate results. Safety glasses help but spilling acid on the unprotected area of my face around the glasses is not ideal. A face shield provides better protection but when bending my neck sharply downwards the shield bumps into my chest, is uncomfortable and obstructs my view. There has to be a better way! Here is where I am heading with an idea to provide a safer way to measure electrolyte levels. I have mocked up a prototype in my kitchen to illustrate. The idea is a float with a scale attached. The scale is calibrated to show the desired fluid level and how much too low or high the level is. I was hoping someone had already gone down this road and I could steal- I mean learn from- their ideas. I will keep trying to create something viable. Already I have something I can use, it’s just a bit hokey. Ideally whatever I conjure up can also be deployed while filling batteries by whatever means you have at hand so the process can be safer, quicker and more accurate. Everyone who works with flooded batteries needs this. I hope this explanation makes more sense. William PS: I have seen electrolyte level gauges on the internet. None that I have seen quite fit the bill. Here is one that is not adjustable but comes in two fixed levels. If you know of a product that does what I need, or at least can spark some creativity, please let me know. PPS: Ideally whatever I come up with is cheap enough that one or two can be left in place to allow checking levels at a glance. Wm Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 75752 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Fri Mar 1 15:52:32 2024 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2024 15:52:32 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Older Sunny Islands charging newer Lithium's Message-ID: <000401da6c1a$6202c870$26085950$@mindspring.com> My fellow wrenchers. Have sought help from SMA but they just defer to owner's manuals and the older batteries listed.. I have a customer with two SMA 5048's, roughly 11 years old and appear to be working fine. Customer wants to move to LIPO batteries and keep his SMA's. Has anybody made these transitions and how did you do it, not sure the SMA programing for LIPO's works the way Lithium's need. Any and all help and ideas appreciated. Thx Peter Giroux American Solar & Alternative Energy Solutions inc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Mar 1 16:17:57 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2024 13:17:57 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Older Sunny Islands charging newer Lithium's In-Reply-To: <000401da6c1a$6202c870$26085950$@mindspring.com> References: <000401da6c1a$6202c870$26085950$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <490ea18e9b386d77b2aa8e0be426308e@mail.gmail.com> Peter: I have been working at interfacing a set of SIs with LiFPO4 batteries. It is documented here . Because the Sis are so SOc-centric they can be hard to intergrate with Lithium. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Friday, March 1, 2024 12:53 PM *To:* 'RE-wrenches' *Cc:* pgiroux at mindspring.com *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Older Sunny Islands charging newer Lithium's My fellow wrenchers. Have sought help from SMA but they just defer to owner’s manuals and the older batteries listed.. I have a customer with two SMA 5048’s, roughly 11 years old and appear to be working fine. Customer wants to move to LIPO batteries and keep his SMA’s. Has anybody made these transitions and how did you do it, not sure the SMA programing for LIPO’s works the way Lithium’s need. Any and all help and ideas appreciated. Thx Peter Giroux American Solar & Alternative Energy Solutions inc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Mar 1 17:09:16 2024 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2024 14:09:16 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Older Sunny Islands charging newer Lithium's In-Reply-To: <000401da6c1a$6202c870$26085950$@mindspring.com> References: <000401da6c1a$6202c870$26085950$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: SMA and Li Tech I have replaced quite a few batteries with LIPh and the only thing on the 4048's is setting a temp sensor at default 77 Degrees and on the 5048"s as i recall can be closed loop with fortress and Blue Planet. Fun Times On Fri, Mar 1, 2024 at 12:52 PM Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > My fellow wrenchers. Have sought help from SMA but they just defer to > owner’s manuals and the older batteries listed.. I have a customer with two > SMA 5048’s, roughly 11 years old and appear to be working fine. Customer > wants to move to LIPO batteries and keep his SMA’s. Has anybody made these > transitions and how did you do it, not sure the SMA programing for LIPO’s > works the way Lithium’s need. Any and all help and ideas appreciated. > > > > Thx > > Peter Giroux > > American Solar & Alternative Energy Solutions inc > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Mar 1 17:53:54 2024 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2024 15:53:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Older Sunny Islands charging newer Lithium's In-Reply-To: References: <000401da6c1a$6202c870$26085950$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Hi Peter, The Sunny Islands will work with Lithium, but there can be challenges. The Blue Ion to Sunny Island communication works really well, you need a Namaka box for that. This would be a great but expensive way to go. The difficulties with Sunny Island and no communication to BMS is when you need the Sunny Island to start the generator at a specific state of charge or also know when to shut down. The open loop parameters seem to work just fine for charging. One cheap solution that I think would work well is to add a Victron Smart shunt, Cerbo and perhaps a screen. You can manipulate the SOC algorithm in the smart shunt to work well and turn the generator start duties over to the Cerbo. You may also be able to externally trigger the Sunny Island to shut off (haven't looked deeply into this). Have a good weekend! On Fri, Mar 1, 2024 at 3:10 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > SMA and Li Tech > I have replaced quite a few batteries with LIPh and the only thing on the > 4048's is setting a temp sensor at default 77 Degrees and on the 5048"s as > i recall can be closed loop with fortress and Blue Planet. > Fun Times > > On Fri, Mar 1, 2024 at 12:52 PM Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> My fellow wrenchers. Have sought help from SMA but they just defer to >> owner’s manuals and the older batteries listed.. I have a customer with two >> SMA 5048’s, roughly 11 years old and appear to be working fine. Customer >> wants to move to LIPO batteries and keep his SMA’s. Has anybody made these >> transitions and how did you do it, not sure the SMA programing for LIPO’s >> works the way Lithium’s need. Any and all help and ideas appreciated. >> >> >> >> Thx >> >> Peter Giroux >> >> American Solar & Alternative Energy Solutions inc >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Mar 1 19:43:13 2024 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2024 19:43:13 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Older Sunny Islands charging newer Lithium's Message-ID: I recently went through this wxwrcise with an old customer of mine as well.I spent a lot of time researching options. Manufacturers and conversations with SMA regarding their support of a conversion to Life storage.Bottom line for me was that SMA does not support any lithium battery manufacturer available in the US.I stuck with exact replacement batteries for those that were exhausted, Concorde AGM's.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Peter Giroux via RE-wrenchesDate: Fri, Mar 1, 2024 3:52 PMTo: 'RE-wrenches';Cc: pgiroux at mindspring.com;Subject:[RE-wrenches] Older Sunny Islands charging newer Lithium'sMy fellow wrenchers. Have sought help from SMA but they just defer to owner’s manuals and the older batteries listed.. I have a customer with two SMA 5048’s, roughly 11 years old and appear to be working fine. Customer wants to move to LIPO batteries and keep his SMA’s. Has anybody made these transitions and how did you do it, not sure the SMA programing for LIPO’s works the way Lithium’s need. Any and all help and ideas appreciated. ThxPeter GirouxAmerican Solar & Alternative Energy Solutions inc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Mar 1 20:02:46 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2024 17:02:46 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Older Sunny Islands charging newer Lithium's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0964c8bacaf92d0d23e4d195a3321fea@sti.net> AES is closed loop with 7 inverter manufacturers (not Outback and I do not know why) including SMA. Not sure on the particulars but you should check them out with Lync2 interface. I just use them closed loop with XW and they can charge 40% faster. https://discoverlithium.com/products/lithium-batteries/aes-rackmount Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-03-01 4:43 pm, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches wrote: > I recently went through this wxwrcise with an old customer of mine as > well. > I spent a lot of time researching options. Manufacturers and > conversations with SMA regarding their support of a conversion to Life > storage. > Bottom line for me was that SMA does not support any lithium battery > manufacturer available in the US. > I stuck with exact replacement batteries for those that were exhausted, > Concorde AGM's. > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > From: Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches > Date: Fri, Mar 1, 2024 3:52 PM > To: 'RE-wrenches'; > Cc: pgiroux at mindspring.com; > Subject:[RE-wrenches] Older Sunny Islands charging newer Lithium's > > My fellow wrenchers. Have sought help from SMA but they just defer to > owner's manuals and the older batteries listed.. I have a customer with > two SMA 5048's, roughly 11 years old and appear to be working fine. > Customer wants to move to LIPO batteries and keep his SMA's. Has > anybody made these transitions and how did you do it, not sure the SMA > programing for LIPO's works the way Lithium's need. Any and all help > and ideas appreciated. > > Thx > > Peter Giroux > > American Solar & Alternative Energy Solutions inc > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Mar 1 20:06:17 2024 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2024 20:06:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Older Sunny Islands charging newer Lithium's Message-ID: Again, just because a battery manufacturer says they are compatible with an inverter, does not mean the inverter manufacturer agrees, supports it, or will answer service calls regarding it.Not a risk I am willing to take.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenchesDate: Fri, Mar 1, 2024 8:03 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar;Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Older Sunny Islands charging newer Lithium's AES is closed loop with 7 inverter manufacturers (not Outback and I do not know why) including SMA. Not sure on the particulars but you should check them out with Lync2 interface. I just use them closed loop with XW and they can charge 40% faster.   https://discoverlithium.com/products/lithium-batteries/aes-rackmount   Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" https://offgridsolar1.com/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-03-01 4:43 pm, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches wrote: @font-face { font-family: "Cambria Math"; } @font-face { font-family: Aptos; } #replybody1 p.v1MsoNormal, #replybody1 li.v1MsoNormal, #replybody1 div.v1MsoNormal { margin: 0in; font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Aptos",sans-serif; mso-ligatures: standardcontextual; } #replybody1 span.v1EmailStyle17 { mso-style-type: personal-compose; font-family: "Aptos",sans-serif; color: windowtext; } #replybody1 .v1MsoChpDefault { mso-style-type: export-only; font-size: 11.0pt; } @page WordSection1 { size: 8.5in 11.0in; margin: 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in; } #replybody1 div.v1WordSection1 { } I recently went through this wxwrcise with an old customer of mine as well. I spent a lot of time researching options. Manufacturers and conversations with SMA regarding their support of a conversion to Life storage. Bottom line for me was that SMA does not support any lithium battery manufacturer available in the US. I stuck with exact replacement batteries for those that were exhausted, Concorde AGM's.   -Glenn Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.   ------ Original message------ From: Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches Date: Fri, Mar 1, 2024 3:52 PM To: 'RE-wrenches'; Cc: pgiroux at mindspring.com; Subject:[RE-wrenches] Older Sunny Islands charging newer Lithium's   My fellow wrenchers. Have sought help from SMA but they just defer to owner's manuals and the older batteries listed.. I have a customer with two SMA 5048's, roughly 11 years old and appear to be working fine. Customer wants to move to LIPO batteries and keep his SMA's. Has anybody made these transitions and how did you do it, not sure the SMA programing for LIPO's works the way Lithium's need. Any and all help and ideas appreciated.   Thx Peter Giroux American Solar & Alternative Energy Solutions inc _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood AlliancePay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.orgList Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgThere are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Fri Mar 1 21:18:53 2024 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2024 21:18:53 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anyone in the Maryland region want lots of used solar panels? Message-ID: If anyone in the Maryland region is interested in lots of used solar panels in the 235-300w range, send me a direct message. Sounds like they are upgrading some older sites. Here is a message I received from an old friend: As part of some of our upcoming portfolios there are old panels that we might be removing as a favor to the customers or to increase productivity. A couple of them are just 20-50 panels, but there is one that is about 1900 panels. The panels are generally old though and in the 235W-300W range. My question to you as someone who does small scale solar and deeply cares about the environmental portion, is do you know if there are groups that would want these older panels. I have talked to some of the larger recyclers and they don't want these to use as panels but would obviously be happy to have us pay them to recycle. I wasn't sure if you were aware of any groups that would want to have these older panels and actually use them for installation. These are in the Maryland region, but would be happy to have any contacts. -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Mar 2 15:34:44 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2024 12:34:44 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: Older Sunny Islands charging newer Lithium's In-Reply-To: <705c6ff96bdbea2fed25faf89cf00914@sti.net> References: <705c6ff96bdbea2fed25faf89cf00914@sti.net> Message-ID: I think it is the battery that is most important in closed loop, as that is where the cost/warranty is. I have an email out on this for another friend and will get back. Below is the SMA Island manual for Discover AES battery link. Each Inverter company has a manual from AES for their battery. Not sure why an Inverter make would not want to do this but... https://discoverbattery.com/s4x_files/resources/des-lynk-2-sma-manual.pdf Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [4] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-03-01 5:06 pm, Glenn Burt wrote: > Again, just because a battery manufacturer says they are compatible > with an inverter, does not mean the inverter manufacturer agrees, > supports it, or will answer service calls regarding it. > Not a risk I am willing to take. > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > From: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches > Date: Fri, Mar 1, 2024 8:03 PM > To: RE-wrenches; > Cc: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar; > Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Older Sunny Islands charging newer Lithium's > > AES is closed loop with 7 inverter manufacturers (not Outback and I do > not know why) including SMA. Not sure on the particulars but you should > check them out with Lync2 interface. I just use them closed loop with > XW and they can charge 40% faster. > > https://discoverlithium.com/products/lithium-batteries/aes-rackmount > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [1] > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 [2] > > On 2024-03-01 4 [3]:43 pm, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> I recently went through this wxwrcise with an old customer of mine as >> well. >> I spent a lot of time researching options. Manufacturers and >> conversations with SMA regarding their support of a conversion to Life >> storage. >> Bottom line for me was that SMA does not support any lithium battery >> manufacturer available in the US. >> I stuck with exact replacement batteries for those that were >> exhausted, Concorde AGM's. >> >> -Glenn >> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. >> >> ------ Original message------ >> From: Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches >> Date: Fri, Mar 1, 2024 3:52 PM >> To: 'RE-wrenches'; >> Cc: pgiroux at mindspring.com; >> Subject:[RE-wrenches] Older Sunny Islands charging newer Lithium's >> >> My fellow wrenchers. Have sought help from SMA but they just defer to >> owner's manuals and the older batteries listed.. I have a customer >> with two SMA 5048's, roughly 11 years old and appear to be working >> fine. Customer wants to move to LIPO batteries and keep his SMA's. Has >> anybody made these transitions and how did you do it, not sure the SMA >> programing for LIPO's works the way Lithium's need. Any and all help >> and ideas appreciated. >> >> Thx >> >> Peter Giroux >> >> American Solar & Alternative Energy Solutions inc >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] tel:2098130060 [3] tel:2024-03-014 [4] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Mar 4 17:33:57 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2024 15:33:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC fountain pumps Message-ID: HI All Any recommendations for quality DC fountain pumps? Brands, suppliers etc thanks jay From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Mar 5 11:05:57 2024 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2024 08:05:57 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC fountain pumps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: March makes a good mag drive 12 vdc pump Fun times On Mon, Mar 4, 2024, 2:35 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > HI All > > Any recommendations for quality DC fountain pumps? > > Brands, suppliers etc > > thanks > > jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Wed Mar 6 14:35:16 2024 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2024 19:35:16 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider CSW4048 / Lithium DD5300 Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, Has anyone been able to get a CSW4048 inverter to work with battery type set to Lithium? When I try that it gives a F89 battery discharge over-current error within a few seconds. The battery is at 100% SoC and there was only the inverter idle loads present. The CSW manual refers to document 976-0319-01-01 for specifics on Lithium. I have not been able to locate that document. Schneider tech support suggests try using custom battery setting, but it won't go lower than 56V when the battery specs request 55V max. I specified the CSW4048 inverter for a Lithium installation not realizing until too late that the CSW doesn't actually offer closed-loop BMS integration. Using the Insight device it does interface to the BMS and allows the MPPT controllers to integrate for BMS derived SoC based charge control. Unclear if the BatLev gauge on the SCP will accurately display SoC values from the BMS. Kevin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Mar 6 18:55:05 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2024 15:55:05 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider CSW4048 / Lithium DD5300 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44f49103e21e2f8c0de5c64bd6f9fe1e@sti.net> Mine work fine closed loop with Discover AES only. I doubt there is much support on other batteries as they all use XW pro which uses the RS 485 protocol to close the loop with different battery brands. To get it going open loop you would use a custom battery menu and probably need an external battery mon and shunt. Ouch ! Sorry about that. Going to be a project! With an AES : 42-48-3000, 42-48-6650 it is just plugging in xanbus and you are done. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-03-06 11:35 am, Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > Has anyone been able to get a CSW4048 inverter to work with battery > type set to Lithium? When I try that it gives a F89 battery discharge > over-current error within a few seconds. The battery is at 100% SoC and > there was only the inverter idle loads present. > > The CSW manual refers to document 976-0319-01-01 for specifics on > Lithium. I have not been able to locate that document. Schneider tech > support suggests try using custom battery setting, but it won't go > lower than 56V when the battery specs request 55V max. > > I specified the CSW4048 inverter for a Lithium installation not > realizing until too late that the CSW doesn't actually offer > closed-loop BMS integration. Using the Insight device it does interface > to the BMS and allows the MPPT controllers to integrate for BMS derived > SoC based charge control. Unclear if the BatLev gauge on the SCP will > accurately display SoC values from the BMS. > > Kevin > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From windydankoff at mac.com Wed Mar 6 21:34:55 2024 From: windydankoff at mac.com (Windy Dankoff) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2024 19:34:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC fountain pumps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1885C346-976F-4028-AC24-C9A6C0656B89@mac.com> Jay - Submersible brushless DC pumps are easy to get from eBay. They are circulation pump made for general, non-solar applications like liquid cooling of electronics etc. With the right strategy, mine has been running for about 6 seasons in my small fountain. Mine is a 24V rated pump running PV-direct at about 17V. Example of power: If rated about 7 watts at 24V, it draws about 5W at 17V. A 10W module runs it almost every day even in less than half-sun. To see this one, search eBay for DC40-2470 Brushless Motor DC 24V 1A Magnetic Drive Water Pump. You'll see many others of various sizes listed. These micro pumps have small passages with little space for debris to pass. A fountain naturally collects leaves and debris. For my fountain, I a homemade intake screen that is five times the size of the pump, so it can run for a few months before some easy cleaning is needed. I started with 2" PVC pipe with large slots. Wrapped first with evaporative cooler mat, then landscape weed barrier fabric, and bound simply with electrical tape. I've only had to rebuild it once in 10 years. Most years I just clean the surface as best I can. This is the key to the project success and I'm amazed How well mine has worked. It sticks a few times a year. I knock it with a stone and if that doesn't work, I take it apart and maybe find a little seed or something. A pump larger than mine will be less prone to debris. Hope this helps! Windy > On Mar 5, 2024, at 2:07 PM, re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org wrote: > > From: jay > Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC fountain pumps > Date: March 4, 2024 at 3:33:57 PM MST > To: RE-wrenches > > > HI All > > Any recommendations for quality DC fountain pumps? > > Brands, suppliers etc > > thanks > > jay > > > From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Fri Mar 8 11:29:16 2024 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 09:29:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clamping CTs Around Live Conductors - White Paper References and/or Anecdotal Information Requested Message-ID: Dear Wrenches, I'm trying to determine whether or not it is acceptable to clamp monitoring CTs around hot conductors. For this question please assume the CT wires are landed in their proper terminals and that proper PPE/safety protocol is employed. The monitored currents in question are residential services of 600A or less. Is there harm to the CT by clamping them around a hot conductor? The physics of a CT from my brief research states that,* "...the secondary of a current transformer should not be disconnected from its burden while current is in the primary, as the secondary will attempt to continue driving current into an effective infinite impedance potentially generating high voltages and thus compromising operator safety." *This begs the question how I can use my DMM clamp meter w/o causing damage or is the italicized text related to very high current applications from the world of medium and high voltage equipment and not as pertinent to the residential and light commercial world I work in? I suspect this is a no-brainer answer for the seasoned professionals on the list and I'll be most appreciative for any proof (no matter how brief) you wish to share. Ultimately we wish to minimize the need to perform power shut downs and interrupt client service when installing load monitoring CTs to a home but only wish to do so if it is part of a safe and non equipment-harming process. Sincerely, Sam Haraldson [image: OnSite Energy] SAM HARALDSON Field Operations Director (406) 551-6135 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 Locally owned and operated since 2012 [image: B Corporation] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Mar 8 11:45:15 2024 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 08:45:15 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clamping CTs Around Live Conductors - White Paper References and/or Anecdotal Information Requested In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches Per manufacturer recommended installation procedures you must have the CT terminated befor the load connection can made and yes this can damage the CT. Depending on what you are connecting to there may also be a "short pin" to prevent component damage so keep that in mind when commissioning a logger. Regarding your question about hand heldsi have seen failures of cheaper units, l have Flukes and never had an issue with them Fun times On Fri, Mar 8, 2024, 8:30 AM Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Dear Wrenches, > > I'm trying to determine whether or not it is acceptable to clamp > monitoring CTs around hot conductors. For this question please assume the > CT wires are landed in their proper terminals and that proper PPE/safety > protocol is employed. The monitored currents in question are residential > services of 600A or less. Is there harm to the CT by clamping them around a > hot conductor? > > The physics of a CT from my brief research states that,* "...the > secondary of a current transformer should not be disconnected from its > burden while current is in the primary, as the secondary will attempt to > continue driving current into an effective infinite impedance potentially > generating high voltages and thus compromising operator safety." *This begs > the question how I can use my DMM clamp meter w/o causing damage or is the > italicized text related to very high current applications from the world of > medium and high voltage equipment and not as pertinent to the residential > and light commercial world I work in? > > I suspect this is a no-brainer answer for the seasoned professionals on > the list and I'll be most appreciative for any proof (no matter how brief) > you wish to share. Ultimately we wish to minimize the need to perform > power shut downs and interrupt client service when installing load > monitoring CTs to a home but only wish to do so if it is part of a safe and > non equipment-harming process. > > Sincerely, > Sam Haraldson > > [image: OnSite Energy] > > > SAM HARALDSON > Field Operations Director > (406) 551-6135 > 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 > Locally owned and operated since 2012 > [image: B Corporation] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Fri Mar 8 12:02:58 2024 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 11:02:58 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clamping CTs Around Live Conductors - White Paper References and/or Anecdotal Information Requested In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have done it many times. YES terminate the secondary first. As an older CT is a step up the voltage transformer and can generate thousands of volts. Many of new type Cats are low voltage output and are safe to work with. On Fri, Mar 8, 2024, 10:46 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches > Per manufacturer recommended installation procedures you must have the CT > terminated befor the load connection can made and yes this can damage the > CT. Depending on what you are connecting to there may also be a "short pin" > to prevent component damage so keep that in mind when commissioning a > logger. > Regarding your question about hand heldsi have seen failures of cheaper > units, l have Flukes and never had an issue with them > Fun times > > On Fri, Mar 8, 2024, 8:30 AM Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Dear Wrenches, >> >> I'm trying to determine whether or not it is acceptable to clamp >> monitoring CTs around hot conductors. For this question please assume the >> CT wires are landed in their proper terminals and that proper PPE/safety >> protocol is employed. The monitored currents in question are residential >> services of 600A or less. Is there harm to the CT by clamping them around a >> hot conductor? >> >> The physics of a CT from my brief research states that,* "...the >> secondary of a current transformer should not be disconnected from its >> burden while current is in the primary, as the secondary will attempt to >> continue driving current into an effective infinite impedance potentially >> generating high voltages and thus compromising operator safety." *This begs >> the question how I can use my DMM clamp meter w/o causing damage or is the >> italicized text related to very high current applications from the world of >> medium and high voltage equipment and not as pertinent to the residential >> and light commercial world I work in? >> >> I suspect this is a no-brainer answer for the seasoned professionals on >> the list and I'll be most appreciative for any proof (no matter how brief) >> you wish to share. Ultimately we wish to minimize the need to perform >> power shut downs and interrupt client service when installing load >> monitoring CTs to a home but only wish to do so if it is part of a safe and >> non equipment-harming process. >> >> Sincerely, >> Sam Haraldson >> >> [image: OnSite Energy] >> >> >> SAM HARALDSON >> Field Operations Director >> (406) 551-6135 >> 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 >> Locally owned and operated since 2012 >> [image: B Corporation] >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From blake at sunlightandpower.com Fri Mar 8 12:31:26 2024 From: blake at sunlightandpower.com (Blake Gleason) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 09:31:26 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clamping CTs Around Live Conductors - White Paper References and/or Anecdotal Information Requested In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Sam, The "secondary" of the CT is the side connected to the meter. The primary is the side that gets wrapped around the conductor or busbar on which you are measuring current. So yes, make sure that the secondary is connected to its "burden" (the meter, or a shorting block) before inducing any current in the primary. With a split-core CT, or a handheld clamp meter (as you noted), you can install the CT around a conductor while the conductor is in service. Just make sure the secondary is already connected. (I'm sure there is some exception for certain types of sensitive meters, but I've never had a problem. And yes, as you say, this is assuming that you are using proper PPE, etc for working around live circuits.) Blake On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 8:31 AM Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Dear Wrenches, > > I'm trying to determine whether or not it is acceptable to clamp > monitoring CTs around hot conductors. For this question please assume the > CT wires are landed in their proper terminals and that proper PPE/safety > protocol is employed. The monitored currents in question are residential > services of 600A or less. Is there harm to the CT by clamping them around a > hot conductor? > > The physics of a CT from my brief research states that,* "...the > secondary of a current transformer should not be disconnected from its > burden while current is in the primary, as the secondary will attempt to > continue driving current into an effective infinite impedance potentially > generating high voltages and thus compromising operator safety." *This begs > the question how I can use my DMM clamp meter w/o causing damage or is the > italicized text related to very high current applications from the world of > medium and high voltage equipment and not as pertinent to the residential > and light commercial world I work in? > > I suspect this is a no-brainer answer for the seasoned professionals on > the list and I'll be most appreciative for any proof (no matter how brief) > you wish to share. Ultimately we wish to minimize the need to perform > power shut downs and interrupt client service when installing load > monitoring CTs to a home but only wish to do so if it is part of a safe and > non equipment-harming process. > > Sincerely, > Sam Haraldson > > [image: OnSite Energy] > > > SAM HARALDSON > Field Operations Director > (406) 551-6135 > 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 > Locally owned and operated since 2012 > [image: B Corporation] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Blake Gleason, PE | Employee Owner Director of Innovation and Technical Excellence O: 510-845-2997 x128 C: 510-867-5878 1035 Folger Ave. Berkeley, CA 94710 www.sunlightandpower.com License #326203 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Mar 8 12:37:36 2024 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2024 12:37:36 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clamping CTs Around Live Conductors - White Paper References and/or Anecdotal Information Requested Message-ID: The answer depends on the type of CT.If it has an internal resistor which converts the measuerment to a voltage, it is okay to clamp on live.If it is purely a CT that outputs a different current to be measured, then they can create an inductive kick ant shock and destroy.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenchesDate: Fri, Mar 8, 2024 11:29 AMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Sam Haraldson;Subject:[RE-wrenches] Clamping CTs Around Live Conductors - White Paper References and/or Anecdotal Information RequestedDear Wrenches,I'm trying to determine whether or not it is acceptable to clamp monitoring CTs around hot conductors.  For this question please assume the CT wires are landed in their proper terminals and that proper PPE/safety protocol is employed.  The monitored currents in question are residential services of 600A or less. Is there harm to the CT by clamping them around a hot conductor?  The physics of a CT from my brief research states that, "...the secondary of a current transformer should not be disconnected from its burden while current is in the primary, as the secondary will attempt to continue driving current into an effective infinite impedance potentially generating high voltages and thus compromising operator safety."  This begs the question how I can use my DMM clamp meter w/o causing damage or is the italicized text related to very high current applications from the world of medium and high voltage equipment and not as pertinent to the residential and light commercial world I work in?I suspect this is a no-brainer answer for the seasoned professionals on the list and I'll be most appreciative for any proof (no matter how brief) you wish to share.  Ultimately we wish to minimize the need to perform power shut downs and interrupt client service when installing load monitoring CTs to a home but only wish to do so if it is part of a safe and non equipment-harming process.Sincerely,Sam Haraldson  SAM HARALDSON  Field Operations Director(406) 551-61351515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715Locally owned and operated since 2012 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Fri Mar 8 15:16:44 2024 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 12:16:44 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clamping CTs Around Live Conductors - White Paper References and/or Anecdotal Information Requested In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sam, As long as the CT leads are properly terminated, opening or closing the clamp-on CT core is nothing different that what a clamp-on ammeter is doing. Make a mistake and pull the leads out of the multimeter and you may have a high voltage arc. There are other problems with using a multimeter in this manner: 1) that the current ranges are usually fused and the fuse may not clear a high voltage arc, and 2) switching current ranges may temporarily open the circuit. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 3/8/2024 8:29 AM, Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches wrote: > Dear Wrenches, > > I'm trying to determine whether or not it is acceptable to clamp > monitoring CTs around hot conductors.  For this question please assume > the CT wires are landed in their proper terminals and that proper > PPE/safety protocol is employed. The monitored currents in question > are residential services of 600A or less. Is there harm to the CT by > clamping them around a hot conductor? > > The physics of a CT from my brief research states that,/"...the > secondary of a current transformer should not be disconnected from its > burden while current is in the primary, as the secondary will attempt > to continue driving current into an effective infinite impedance > potentially generating high voltages and thus compromising operator > safety." /This begs the question how I can use my DMM clamp meter w/o > causing damage or is the italicized text related to very high current > applications from the world of medium and high voltage equipment and > not as pertinent to the residential and light commercial world I work in? > > I suspect this is a no-brainer answer for the seasoned professionals > on the list and I'll be most appreciative for any proof (no matter how > brief) you wish to share.  Ultimately we wish to minimize the need to > perform power shut downs and interrupt client service when installing > load monitoring CTs to a home but only wish to do so if it is part of > a safe and non equipment-harming process. > > Sincerely, > Sam Haraldson > > OnSite Energy > > > SAM HARALDSON > Field Operations Director > (406) 551-6135 > 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 > Locally owned and operated since 2012 > B Corporation > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Fri Mar 8 17:30:39 2024 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 22:30:39 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TPM Search Message-ID: With news that PLP has dropped the TPM line, what are you all recommending for a good mount for up to 8 modules , 400 w range. I looked in the archives, but no luck. I thought there was someone formerly at DPW that was making them. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. From william at millersolar.com Fri Mar 8 17:38:35 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 14:38:35 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TPM Search In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8b666c090af650ad4f256713be3d3987@mail.gmail.com> https://solarrackworks.com/top-of-pole-racks.html Jeff Randall has been in the business for years and he is as solid as they come. He started DPW. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, March 8, 2024 2:31 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: Jeremy Rodriguez Subject: [RE-wrenches] TPM Search With news that PLP has dropped the TPM line, what are you all recommending for a good mount for up to 8 modules , 400 w range. I looked in the archives, but no luck. I thought there was someone formerly at DPW that was making them. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From nathanjstumpff at gmail.com Fri Mar 8 17:40:20 2024 From: nathanjstumpff at gmail.com (Nathan J. Stumpff) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 14:40:20 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TPM Search In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It’s been a few years since I bought these but it looks like they are still going, I always thought it was a good product when I bought in the past: https://www.mtsolar.us/ Cheers, -Nathan On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 2:31 PM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > With news that PLP has dropped the TPM line, what are you all recommending > for a good mount for up to 8 modules , 400 w range. > I looked in the archives, but no luck. > I thought there was someone formerly at DPW that was making them. > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bryan at pv-cables.com Fri Mar 8 17:43:58 2024 From: bryan at pv-cables.com (Bryan Norkunas) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 22:43:58 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TPM Search In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Try Solar Rack Works [Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140] Bryan Norkunas PV-Cables Inc. 989 Milton Ave Ste 1D Ferndale CA 95536 (707) 923-3000 office www.pv-cables.com [cid:image002.jpg at 01DA17CF.578FC540] Please print only if necessary. NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by replying to this email, and destroy all copies of the original message. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Nathan J. Stumpff via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, March 8, 2024 2:40:20 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Nathan J. Stumpff Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] TPM Search It’s been a few years since I bought these but it looks like they are still going, I always thought it was a good product when I bought in the past: https://www.mtsolar.us/ Cheers, -Nathan On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 2:31 PM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches > wrote: With news that PLP has dropped the TPM line, what are you all recommending for a good mount for up to 8 modules , 400 w range. I looked in the archives, but no luck. I thought there was someone formerly at DPW that was making them. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2BF9EA7093754B829E681FC31ADC48D8[15882869].png Type: image/png Size: 20475 bytes Desc: 2BF9EA7093754B829E681FC31ADC48D8[15882869].png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: F62801A471DC410C815725A0E910CFC7[15882870].jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1367 bytes Desc: F62801A471DC410C815725A0E910CFC7[15882870].jpg URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Fri Mar 8 17:50:11 2024 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 14:50:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TPM Search In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jeremy, I think the Solar RacksWorks TPMs are virtually identical to the DPW TPMs. My go to TPM is General Specialties ; They are a solid design and I think they are easier to assemble. They also have UL listed TPMs but they have top mounting clamps, and for the life of me I don't understand the logic of of a top mount clamp on a TPM. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 3/8/2024 2:30 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches wrote: > With news that PLP has dropped the TPM line, what are you all recommending for a good mount for up to 8 modules , 400 w range. > I looked in the archives, but no luck. > I thought there was someone formerly at DPW that was making them. > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Fri Mar 8 18:27:41 2024 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 18:27:41 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TPM Search In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Another one out there that is worth looking at is MT Solar. Cheers, Dave On Fri, Mar 8, 2024, 5:51 PM Kent via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jeremy, > > I think the Solar RacksWorks TPMs are virtually identical to the DPW TPMs. > My go to TPM is General Specialties > ; They are a solid design and I > think they are easier to assemble. They also have UL listed TPMs but they > have top mounting clamps, and for the life of me I don't understand the > logic of of a top mount clamp on a TPM. > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > > On 3/8/2024 2:30 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches wrote: > > With news that PLP has dropped the TPM line, what are you all recommending for a good mount for up to 8 modules , 400 w range. > I looked in the archives, but no luck. > I thought there was someone formerly at DPW that was making them. > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Mar 8 18:48:34 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2024 15:48:34 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TPM Search In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <32dc00486d6501e594013bbf22daab22@sti.net> Spendy for the right client, Jeff and Kyle still support/sell the best trackers out there. https://www.wattsun.com/ Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [2]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [3] [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-03-08 3:27 pm, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches wrote: > Another one out there that is worth looking at is MT Solar. > Cheers, > Dave > > On Fri, Mar 8, 2024, 5:51 PM Kent via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Jeremy, > > I think the Solar RacksWorks TPMs are virtually identical to the DPW > TPMs. My go to TPM is General Specialties [1]; They are a solid design > and I think they are easier to assemble. They also have UL listed TPMs > but they have top mounting clamps, and for the life of me I don't > understand the logic of of a top mount clamp on a TPM. > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > On 3/8/2024 2:30 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches wrote: > > With news that PLP has dropped the TPM line, what are you all > recommending for a good mount for up to 8 modules , 400 w range. > I looked in the archives, but no luck. > I thought there was someone formerly at DPW that was making them. > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] https://www.generalspecialtiesmfg.com/ [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roy at four-winds-energy.com Fri Mar 8 18:48:59 2024 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 18:48:59 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TPM Search In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41a30744-3eac-432b-8052-d2b0fa84b65c@four-winds-energy.com> MT Solar is very much in business. Anyone going to the NABCEP Conference later this month? They're at booth #34. Hope to see some of you there, I'll be around booth 38 and registration most of the time. Roy Butler Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 607-324-9747 Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don’t. “The less people know, the more stubbornly they know it.” Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. On 3/8/2024 5:40 PM, Nathan J. Stumpff via RE-wrenches wrote: > It’s been a few years since I bought these but it looks like they are > still going, I always thought it was a good product when I bought in > the past: > > https://www.mtsolar.us/ > > Cheers, > -Nathan > > On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 2:31 PM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > With news that PLP has dropped the TPM line, what are you all > recommending for a good mount for up to 8 modules , 400 w range. > I looked in the archives, but no luck. > I thought there was someone formerly at DPW that was making them. > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Mar 8 19:15:23 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 17:15:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TPM Search In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0bedc798-cb9a-4dc0-8afa-2a8f5b715681@solarray.com> I've had several modules pull off of bottom mount racking in high winds, but never top mount racking.  Newer modules have much thinner frames, but are much more surface area than the old days. So to answer Kent's question: Ray Walters Remote Solar On 3/8/2024 3:50 PM, Kent via RE-wrenches wrote: > and for the life of me I don't understand the logic of of a top mount > clamp on a TPM. > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Bent Module3.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 95282 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Mar 8 19:23:38 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 17:23:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TPM Search In-Reply-To: <0bedc798-cb9a-4dc0-8afa-2a8f5b715681@solarray.com> References: <0bedc798-cb9a-4dc0-8afa-2a8f5b715681@solarray.com> Message-ID: <1eb24d5d-f547-4bee-8645-db2634e7aad6@solarray.com> Here's another mount at the edge of failure, from the same system. Hardware is tight.  Like many, I had lots of love for good ol' fashion bottom mounting vs top mount, until this happened about 5 years ago. This is how we learn. On 3/8/2024 5:15 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I've had several modules pull off of bottom mount racking in high > winds, but never top mount racking.  Newer modules have much thinner > frames, but are much more surface area than the old days. > > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > > On 3/8/2024 3:50 PM, Kent via RE-wrenches wrote: >> and for the life of me I don't understand the logic of of a top mount >> clamp on a TPM. >> >> Kent Osterberg >> Blue Mountain Solar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: A5If4RYnOd0XA0cb.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 52143 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Fri Mar 8 19:47:17 2024 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 17:47:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TPM Search In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <013a01da71bb$588141e0$0983c5a0$@OasisMontana.com> Hear hear! www.mtsolar.us Great folks with whom to do business. Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, March 8, 2024 4:28 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Dave Tedeyan Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] TPM Search Another one out there that is worth looking at is MT Solar. Cheers, Dave On Fri, Mar 8, 2024, 5:51 PM Kent via RE-wrenches > wrote: Jeremy, I think the Solar RacksWorks TPMs are virtually identical to the DPW TPMs. My go to TPM is General Specialties ; They are a solid design and I think they are easier to assemble. They also have UL listed TPMs but they have top mounting clamps, and for the life of me I don't understand the logic of of a top mount clamp on a TPM. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 3/8/2024 2:30 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches wrote: With news that PLP has dropped the TPM line, what are you all recommending for a good mount for up to 8 modules , 400 w range. I looked in the archives, but no luck. I thought there was someone formerly at DPW that was making them. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Fri Mar 8 19:59:34 2024 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 17:59:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TPM Search In-Reply-To: <013a01da71bb$588141e0$0983c5a0$@OasisMontana.com> References: <013a01da71bb$588141e0$0983c5a0$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: Adding in my vote for MT Solar. Quality product, quality customer service. I saw someone mention Wattsun as well but their product is trackers not simply pole mounts. They too have superb customer service but not for static racking. - Sam OnSite Energy, Inc. Bozeman, MT -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Fri Mar 8 20:59:36 2024 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2024 17:59:36 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TPM Search In-Reply-To: <32dc00486d6501e594013bbf22daab22@sti.net> References: <32dc00486d6501e594013bbf22daab22@sti.net> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Sat Mar 9 14:44:45 2024 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2024 11:44:45 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TPM Search In-Reply-To: <1eb24d5d-f547-4bee-8645-db2634e7aad6@solarray.com> References: <0bedc798-cb9a-4dc0-8afa-2a8f5b715681@solarray.com> <1eb24d5d-f547-4bee-8645-db2634e7aad6@solarray.com> Message-ID: <4992d284-5183-482c-883d-2b8361e9533d@coveoregon.com> Ray, It appears that there is something between the module frame and rail that may have introduced the frame crack. Perhaps as it was tightened, and not due to the wind. What is the light material that looks like it is sandwiched between the module and rail? Kent Osterberg On 3/8/2024 4:23 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Here's another mount at the edge of failure, from the same system. > Hardware is tight.  Like many, I had lots of love for good ol' fashion > bottom mounting vs top mount, until this happened about 5 years ago. > > This is how we learn. > > On 3/8/2024 5:15 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> I've had several modules pull off of bottom mount racking in high >> winds, but never top mount racking.  Newer modules have much thinner >> frames, but are much more surface area than the old days. >> >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> >> >> On 3/8/2024 3:50 PM, Kent via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> and for the life of me I don't understand the logic of of a top >>> mount clamp on a TPM. >>> >>> Kent Osterberg >>> Blue Mountain Solar > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: A5If4RYnOd0XA0cb.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 52143 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Mar 9 14:43:58 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2024 11:43:58 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Evaluating battery health Message-ID: <01d356a7e09547d8af5c72bd2bbafaa9@mail.gmail.com> Friends: Evaluating the state of health of a battery array is one concept I struggle with. It pretty easy with flooded batteries—charge them up and check SG. Sealed batteries are different. I do track “at-rest” voltages of discrete 2 volt VRLA cells. This generally can’t be done for monoblock batteries. I see trending towards greater deviation over time. For example a UnigyII array I am currently working with is about 8 years old and has been worked hard. Recent at-rest voltage readings show a deviation of 8%. Four years ago it was 2%. How much deviation is too much? The O&M manual for UnigyII batteries suggests making ohmic measurements. My research indicates this requires a rather expensive meter, such as a Hioki 3554. I suppose it may be cheap of me to not invest in one of these meters and I am still considering doing so. Have any of you worked with one of these meters? Here is another idea: As we have discussed here, I am not a fan of battery monitor modules in a battery inverter BOS package. I am an Outback integrator so the option is the FNDC. The FNDC will generate SOC values which are often inaccurate and confuse my clients. These inaccuracies occur when the programmed efficiency does not reflect an accurate value. The eff will change over time, with different ambient temperature and at different states of charge. (Another problem with the FNDC is it has only 3 shunt inputs. This can be difficult to implement if you have a large battery array and many inverters and charge controllers.) My idea is to turn this concept around. Instead of calculating SOC one could use the ratio of AH in to AH out over time to determine the actual efficiency of a battery array. Battery efficiency seems like as good an indicator of battery health as any other value. It is easy to obtain data files for the FNDC in CSV format. (I suspect this is kind of like what is done internally for the Sunny Island battery health reading.) Have any of you pondered these questions? I am interested in your thoughts. TIA. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Mar 9 16:37:38 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2024 16:37:38 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clamping CTs Around Live Conductors - White Paper References and/or Anecdotal Information Requested In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have installed many hundreds of Enphase CTs on live service conductors. As long as the secondary is connected first, no problem. Same with disconnecting them. Jason On Fri, Mar 8, 2024, 11:30 AM Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Dear Wrenches, > > I'm trying to determine whether or not it is acceptable to clamp > monitoring CTs around hot conductors. For this question please assume the > CT wires are landed in their proper terminals and that proper PPE/safety > protocol is employed. The monitored currents in question are residential > services of 600A or less. Is there harm to the CT by clamping them around a > hot conductor? > > The physics of a CT from my brief research states that,* "...the > secondary of a current transformer should not be disconnected from its > burden while current is in the primary, as the secondary will attempt to > continue driving current into an effective infinite impedance potentially > generating high voltages and thus compromising operator safety." *This begs > the question how I can use my DMM clamp meter w/o causing damage or is the > italicized text related to very high current applications from the world of > medium and high voltage equipment and not as pertinent to the residential > and light commercial world I work in? > > I suspect this is a no-brainer answer for the seasoned professionals on > the list and I'll be most appreciative for any proof (no matter how brief) > you wish to share. Ultimately we wish to minimize the need to perform > power shut downs and interrupt client service when installing load > monitoring CTs to a home but only wish to do so if it is part of a safe and > non equipment-harming process. > > Sincerely, > Sam Haraldson > > [image: OnSite Energy] > > > SAM HARALDSON > Field Operations Director > (406) 551-6135 > 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 > Locally owned and operated since 2012 > [image: B Corporation] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sun Mar 10 05:14:45 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2024 03:14:45 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TPM Search In-Reply-To: <4992d284-5183-482c-883d-2b8361e9533d@coveoregon.com> References: <0bedc798-cb9a-4dc0-8afa-2a8f5b715681@solarray.com> <1eb24d5d-f547-4bee-8645-db2634e7aad6@solarray.com> <4992d284-5183-482c-883d-2b8361e9533d@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: That's just distortion in the image, from when I zoomed and cropped it.  Its module frame direct to the 2" angle aluminum support rail. Nothing in between.  High winds ripped two other modules completely off the rack leaving all the hardware still attached with a bit of module frame still under the washers . This is on a mountain top in Wyoming.   Believe me, when I tell you that bottom mounting is no longer a safe method with today's big modules, at least not in high wind situations (> 90 mph). I measured the thickness of the module frame, and its about 1/2 the thickness of an old Siemens SP75 that I compared it to.  These were Solar World modules, but I've noticed most modules today have significantly less robust frames than the old days. More surface area to catch the wind + thinner metal = failure at high enough wind speed. BTW, the rack is a DPW high wind model, both the rack and the 4" pole didn't budge at all, just the modules themselves.  I've had a second system, same configuration have similar damage in a wind storm just last year.  Its just on the top modules, not all of them.  I have quite a few MT Solar racks with the top down mounting, and no losses.   I've been  suspicious of top down module racking; and I was quite satisfied with actual bolts and hardware to hold modules in place.  But its just not true anymore.    I added 3/4" angle stainless steel to reinforce the attachments on the top modules. Ray Walters On 3/9/2024 12:44 PM, Kent via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Ray, > > It appears that there is something between the module frame and rail > that may have introduced the frame crack. Perhaps as it was tightened, > and not due to the wind. What is the light material that looks like it > is sandwiched between the module and rail? > > Kent Osterberg > > On 3/8/2024 4:23 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Here's another mount at the edge of failure, from the same system. >> Hardware is tight.  Like many, I had lots of love for good ol' >> fashion bottom mounting vs top mount, until this happened about 5 >> years ago. >> >> This is how we learn. >> >> >> On 3/8/2024 5:15 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> I've had several modules pull off of bottom mount racking in high >>> winds, but never top mount racking.  Newer modules have much thinner >>> frames, but are much more surface area than the old days. >>> >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> >>> >>> On 3/8/2024 3:50 PM, Kent via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> and for the life of me I don't understand the logic of of a top >>>> mount clamp on a TPM. >>>> >>>> Kent Osterberg >>>> Blue Mountain Solar >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Hardware Upgrade close.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 39644 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Sun Mar 10 05:37:19 2024 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jarvis) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2024 10:37:19 +0100 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TPM Search In-Reply-To: References: <0bedc798-cb9a-4dc0-8afa-2a8f5b715681@solarray.com> <1eb24d5d-f547-4bee-8645-db2634e7aad6@solarray.com> <4992d284-5183-482c-883d-2b8361e9533d@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: [image: image.png] ^ Here is what I designed and we manufacture for positive module securement. Two heavy extruded aluminum t-shaped clamps that fully grab the long sides of the modules. Serrations to grip the modules. Machined slots for captive hardware that clamps the modules together. We use these our military and industrial power systems. Some of them get deployed to pretty wickedly windy location. I am not sure how big of attachments are allowed on this list, but you can e-mail if you want to see installed photos. In conjunction with above, we also use the REC TwinPeaks series modules that have the extra cross bars across the back of the glass. Do any other module manufacturers have those stiffeners across the back? -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 10:15 AM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > That's just distortion in the image, from when I zoomed and cropped it. > Its module frame direct to the 2" angle aluminum support rail. Nothing in > between. High winds ripped two other modules completely off the rack > leaving all the hardware still attached with a bit of module frame still > under the washers . > > This is on a mountain top in Wyoming. Believe me, when I tell you that > bottom mounting is no longer a safe method with today's big modules, at > least not in high wind situations (> 90 mph). I measured the thickness of > the module frame, and its about 1/2 the thickness of an old Siemens SP75 > that I compared it to. These were Solar World modules, but I've noticed > most modules today have significantly less robust frames than the old > days. > > More surface area to catch the wind + thinner metal = failure at high > enough wind speed. > > BTW, the rack is a DPW high wind model, both the rack and the 4" pole > didn't budge at all, just the modules themselves. I've had a second > system, same configuration have similar damage in a wind storm just last > year. Its just on the top modules, not all of them. I have quite a few MT > Solar racks with the top down mounting, and no losses. I've been > suspicious of top down module racking; and I was quite satisfied with > actual bolts and hardware to hold modules in place. But its just not true > anymore. I added 3/4" angle stainless steel to reinforce the attachments > on the top modules. > > > Ray Walters > On 3/9/2024 12:44 PM, Kent via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Ray, > > It appears that there is something between the module frame and rail that > may have introduced the frame crack. Perhaps as it was tightened, and not > due to the wind. What is the light material that looks like it is > sandwiched between the module and rail? > > Kent Osterberg > On 3/8/2024 4:23 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Here's another mount at the edge of failure, from the same system. > Hardware is tight. Like many, I had lots of love for good ol' fashion > bottom mounting vs top mount, until this happened about 5 years ago. > > This is how we learn. > > > On 3/8/2024 5:15 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I've had several modules pull off of bottom mount racking in high winds, > but never top mount racking. Newer modules have much thinner frames, but > are much more surface area than the old days. > > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > On 3/8/2024 3:50 PM, Kent via RE-wrenches wrote: > > and for the life of me I don't understand the logic of of a top mount > clamp on a TPM. > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Hardware Upgrade close.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 39644 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 80201 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Sun Mar 10 18:23:19 2024 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2024 18:23:19 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Insurance for solar design and inspections Message-ID: Hi All, I have an insurance question and am very curious about how others deal with this, or don't. People will sometimes ask us to either do some design work for a system that we will not be installing, or to inspect a system and give my professional opinion about it. These are two separate work situations. Recently, our insurance agent brought it to our attention that we should have insurance specifically for these kinds of work, and it is not something that is covered under our general liability (contractors) insurance. Their recommendation for design work is to get "professional liability" (errors and omissions) insurance. Even though I may do one or two designs a year, we are looking at a roughly $12,000 policy. This would be meant to cover us if I make a mistake in the design that leads to some sort of failure or fire. Their recommendation for the inspection type work is to get essentially a home inspector insurance policy for about $2400 per year. Again, this is something that we do a handful of times per year. This insurance is meant to cover us if I inspect a system and miss something that then ends up being a problem or a hazard. With a brief conversation with a lawyer acquaintance, he thought that I may be fine with out these insurances. It sounded like I should have something in my service contracts that would essentially say something like "we will do this work to the best of our ability", and then if something does go wrong and the homeowner takes us to court, it is upon them to prove that we missed something that a reasonable person would have caught. My business manager does not like this because we could still have lots of lawyer fees and have to show up in court if we were to get sued, even if the problem was not caused by a lack of diligence on our part. So my question to all of you is, do you have these insurances? Or do you just not do designs and inspections unless you are actually turning some wrenches on the site so that your general liability insurance covers your work? Or, is this a case of our insurance agent putting ungrounded fears in our head? Thanks for your thoughts. Cheers, Dave -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Sun Mar 10 19:56:48 2024 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2024 19:56:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Insurance for solar design and inspections In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000601da7346$9dd94da0$d98be8e0$@mindspring.com> Dave You have it, you won’t need it. You do not have it you will. In my previous life I had errors and omissions insurance. Shop it, you may be able to get better rates and coverages. I now just have a whopper of a GL policy and there have been a time or two where I get a call to fix another companies problems where I let the customer know the challenges and a time or two turned down the business due to the system being such a mess or I am not “certified “to service that gear ( Generac ) Peter Giroux ASAE From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2024 6:23 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Dave Tedeyan Subject: [RE-wrenches] Insurance for solar design and inspections Hi All, I have an insurance question and am very curious about how others deal with this, or don't. People will sometimes ask us to either do some design work for a system that we will not be installing, or to inspect a system and give my professional opinion about it. These are two separate work situations. Recently, our insurance agent brought it to our attention that we should have insurance specifically for these kinds of work, and it is not something that is covered under our general liability (contractors) insurance. Their recommendation for design work is to get "professional liability" (errors and omissions) insurance. Even though I may do one or two designs a year, we are looking at a roughly $12,000 policy. This would be meant to cover us if I make a mistake in the design that leads to some sort of failure or fire. Their recommendation for the inspection type work is to get essentially a home inspector insurance policy for about $2400 per year. Again, this is something that we do a handful of times per year. This insurance is meant to cover us if I inspect a system and miss something that then ends up being a problem or a hazard. With a brief conversation with a lawyer acquaintance, he thought that I may be fine with out these insurances. It sounded like I should have something in my service contracts that would essentially say something like "we will do this work to the best of our ability", and then if something does go wrong and the homeowner takes us to court, it is upon them to prove that we missed something that a reasonable person would have caught. My business manager does not like this because we could still have lots of lawyer fees and have to show up in court if we were to get sued, even if the problem was not caused by a lack of diligence on our part. So my question to all of you is, do you have these insurances? Or do you just not do designs and inspections unless you are actually turning some wrenches on the site so that your general liability insurance covers your work? Or, is this a case of our insurance agent putting ungrounded fears in our head? Thanks for your thoughts. Cheers, Dave -- Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ~WRD0000.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 823 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Sun Mar 10 21:05:20 2024 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2024 21:05:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Insurance for solar design and inspections In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: According to my agent, general liability does not cover design problems, whether we wrench it or not. That is what an Errors and Omissions policy would cover, and what a previous agent mentioned to me in passing after selling me general liability for 10 years! They could offer me an E&O policy for several thousands of dollars, so I shopped it around and found coverage for a fraction of that cost, from a reputable company. I have not considered an inspection insurance policy, mostly because my agent inferred that that type of work would be covered under an E & O policy as well, but I've never asked that question directly. So, something to add to my list for Monday... Howie Sun Catcher On Sun, Mar 10, 2024, 6:23 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi All, > > I have an insurance question and am very curious about how others deal > with this, or don't. People will sometimes ask us to either do some design > work for a system that we will not be installing, or to inspect a system > and give my professional opinion about it. These are two separate work > situations. > > Recently, our insurance agent brought it to our attention that we should > have insurance specifically for these kinds of work, and it is not > something that is covered under our general liability (contractors) > insurance. > > Their recommendation for design work is to get "professional liability" > (errors and omissions) insurance. Even though I may do one or two designs a > year, we are looking at a roughly $12,000 policy. This would be meant to > cover us if I make a mistake in the design that leads to some sort of > failure or fire. > > Their recommendation for the inspection type work is to get essentially a > home inspector insurance policy for about $2400 per year. Again, this is > something that we do a handful of times per year. This insurance is meant > to cover us if I inspect a system and miss something that then ends up > being a problem or a hazard. > > With a brief conversation with a lawyer acquaintance, he thought that I > may be fine with out these insurances. It sounded like I should have > something in my service contracts that would essentially say something like > "we will do this work to the best of our ability", and then if something > does go wrong and the homeowner takes us to court, it is upon them to prove > that we missed something that a reasonable person would have caught. My > business manager does not like this because we could still have lots of > lawyer fees and have to show up in court if we were to get sued, even if > the problem was not caused by a lack of diligence on our part. > > So my question to all of you is, do you have these insurances? Or do you > just not do designs and inspections unless you are actually turning some > wrenches on the site so that your general liability insurance covers your > work? Or, is this a case of our insurance agent putting ungrounded fears in > our head? > > Thanks for your thoughts. > Cheers, > Dave > > -- > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 270-0370 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Mon Mar 11 08:20:49 2024 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2024 08:20:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Insurance for solar design and inspections In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7b0e066f-b455-4fa2-b385-e4bff84c2253@entech-engineering.com> I have carried E&O for much less. I think the recommendation to shop around is a good one.  NABECP I THINK, has some leads on firms for this. Chris On 3/10/2024 6:23 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi All, > > I have an insurance question and am very curious about how others deal > with this, or don't. People will sometimes ask us to either do some > design work for a system that we will not be installing, or to inspect > a system and give my professional opinion about it. These are two > separate work situations. > > Recently, our insurance agent brought it to our attention that we > should have insurance specifically for these kinds of work, and it is > not something that is covered under our general liability > (contractors) insurance. > > Their recommendation for design work is to get "professional > liability" (errors and omissions) insurance. Even though I may do one > or two designs a year, we are looking at a roughly $12,000 policy. > This would be meant to cover us if I make a mistake in the design that > leads to some sort of failure or fire. > > Their recommendation for the inspection type work is to get > essentially a home inspector insurance policy for about $2400 per > year. Again, this is something that we do a handful of times per year. > This insurance is meant to cover us if I inspect a system and miss > something that then ends up being a problem or a hazard. > > With a brief conversation with a lawyer acquaintance, he thought that > I may be fine with out these insurances. It sounded like I should have > something in my service contracts that would essentially say something > like "we will do this work to the best of our ability", and then if > something does go wrong and the homeowner takes us to court, it is > upon them to prove that we missed something that a reasonable person > would have caught. My business manager does not like this because we > could still have lots of lawyer fees and have to show up in court if > we were to get sued, even if the problem was not caused by a lack of > diligence on our part. > > So my question to all of you is, do you have these insurances? Or do > you just not do designs and inspections unless you are actually > turning some wrenches on the site so that your general liability > insurance covers your work? Or, is this a case of our insurance agent > putting ungrounded fears in our head? > > Thanks for your thoughts. > Cheers, > Dave > > -- > Logo > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 270-0370 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel           ENTECH Engineering Inc.    PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                   401-477-5773 EE Logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/vcard Size: 203 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Mon Mar 11 09:52:54 2024 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2024 09:52:54 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Insurance for solar design and inspections In-Reply-To: <7b0e066f-b455-4fa2-b385-e4bff84c2253@entech-engineering.com> References: <7b0e066f-b455-4fa2-b385-e4bff84c2253@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the recommendations to shop around. Seems like maybe this does not need to be such a huge investment. And Howie, I was also under the impression that the E&O would cover inspections. We were just looking into an inspection policy instead of an E&O because our agent said that it would be far less expensive and this all came up around an inspection that I was planning on doing. Cheers, Dave On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 8:21 AM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I have carried E&O for much less. I think the recommendation to shop > around is a good one. NABECP I THINK, has some leads on firms for this. > > > Chris > On 3/10/2024 6:23 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi All, > > I have an insurance question and am very curious about how others deal > with this, or don't. People will sometimes ask us to either do some design > work for a system that we will not be installing, or to inspect a system > and give my professional opinion about it. These are two separate work > situations. > > Recently, our insurance agent brought it to our attention that we should > have insurance specifically for these kinds of work, and it is not > something that is covered under our general liability (contractors) > insurance. > > Their recommendation for design work is to get "professional liability" > (errors and omissions) insurance. Even though I may do one or two designs a > year, we are looking at a roughly $12,000 policy. This would be meant to > cover us if I make a mistake in the design that leads to some sort of > failure or fire. > > Their recommendation for the inspection type work is to get essentially a > home inspector insurance policy for about $2400 per year. Again, this is > something that we do a handful of times per year. This insurance is meant > to cover us if I inspect a system and miss something that then ends up > being a problem or a hazard. > > With a brief conversation with a lawyer acquaintance, he thought that I > may be fine with out these insurances. It sounded like I should have > something in my service contracts that would essentially say something like > "we will do this work to the best of our ability", and then if something > does go wrong and the homeowner takes us to court, it is upon them to prove > that we missed something that a reasonable person would have caught. My > business manager does not like this because we could still have lots of > lawyer fees and have to show up in court if we were to get sued, even if > the problem was not caused by a lack of diligence on our part. > > So my question to all of you is, do you have these insurances? Or do you > just not do designs and inspections unless you are actually turning some > wrenches on the site so that your general liability insurance covers your > work? Or, is this a case of our insurance agent putting ungrounded fears in > our head? > > Thanks for your thoughts. > Cheers, > Dave > > -- > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 270-0370 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > Christopher Warfel > ENTECH Engineering Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-477-5773 > [image: EE Logo] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Mon Mar 11 09:54:20 2024 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2024 07:54:20 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clamping CTs Around Live Conductors - White Paper References and/or Anecdotal Information Requested In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A quick note of thanks to the wide variety of responses I received last week regarding my question about safely clamping CTs around live conductors. I genuinely appreciate the supportive responses. Sincerely, Sam > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Mon Mar 11 10:18:31 2024 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2024 10:18:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Evaluating battery health In-Reply-To: <01d356a7e09547d8af5c72bd2bbafaa9@mail.gmail.com> References: <01d356a7e09547d8af5c72bd2bbafaa9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi William, Thinking out loud here, and I am guessing that there are reasons why not to do this. But what about putting a voltage tester across each battery and running a quick test? I mention this because just a couple days ago, I went to check on a grid tied battery backup system where capacity was much less than expected. It is two strings of the Outback Northstar Blue+ batteries with a Radian inverter. There should be about 9kwh of usable energy at 50% DOD. I was able to get the data logs and found that on a recent grid outage the inverter put out about 3kWh of energy before it shut off loads when the batteries got to 48V. These batteries are only about 3.5 years old. Their resting voltages were all pretty close (although, they were only resting - not floating - for about 10 minutes) But then I put a 100A battery tester across each battery. While most of them dropped from about 13.8V to about 12.8V, I found one that dropped to 11V. There was also another that dropped to about 12.3. So, those two batteries seem suspect to me. This is not a perfect method, but seemed to quickly identify a couple batteries with issues. Cheers, Dave On Sat, Mar 9, 2024 at 3:01 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > > > Evaluating the state of health of a battery array is one concept I > struggle with. > > > > It pretty easy with flooded batteries—charge them up and check SG. Sealed > batteries are different. > > > > I do track “at-rest” voltages of discrete 2 volt VRLA cells. This > generally can’t be done for monoblock batteries. I see trending towards > greater deviation over time. For example a UnigyII array I am currently > working with is about 8 years old and has been worked hard. Recent at-rest > voltage readings show a deviation of 8%. Four years ago it was 2%. How > much deviation is too much? > > > > The O&M manual for UnigyII batteries suggests making ohmic measurements. > My research indicates this requires a rather expensive meter, such as a > Hioki 3554. I suppose it may be cheap of me to not invest in one of these > meters and I am still considering doing so. Have any of you worked with > one of these meters? > > > > Here is another idea: As we have discussed here, I am not a fan of > battery monitor modules in a battery inverter BOS package. I am an Outback > integrator so the option is the FNDC. The FNDC will generate SOC values > which are often inaccurate and confuse my clients. These inaccuracies > occur when the programmed efficiency does not reflect an accurate value. > The eff will change over time, with different ambient temperature and at > different states of charge. (Another problem with the FNDC is it has only > 3 shunt inputs. This can be difficult to implement if you have a large > battery array and many inverters and charge controllers.) > > > > My idea is to turn this concept around. Instead of calculating SOC one > could use the ratio of AH in to AH out over time to determine the actual > efficiency of a battery array. Battery efficiency seems like as good an > indicator of battery health as any other value. It is easy to obtain data > files for the FNDC in CSV format. (I suspect this is kind of like what is > done internally for the Sunny Island battery health reading.) > > > > Have any of you pondered these questions? I am interested in your > thoughts. > > > > TIA. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Mon Mar 11 11:57:56 2024 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2024 15:57:56 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Insurance for solar design and inspections In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: With General coverage I have been told if there is a issue with an installation & we did not install issues would be covered but if we install it they do not insure our work...... If we sub it out it was/is covered. ___________________________________________________ Dana Orzel c- 2087217003 e - dana at solarwork.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Insurance for solar design and inspections Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2024 01:05:20 +0000 Size: 25047 URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Mon Mar 11 15:59:17 2024 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2024 12:59:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TPM Search In-Reply-To: References: <0bedc798-cb9a-4dc0-8afa-2a8f5b715681@solarray.com> <1eb24d5d-f547-4bee-8645-db2634e7aad6@solarray.com> <4992d284-5183-482c-883d-2b8361e9533d@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: Ray, Thanks for the clarification on the photo. Years ago Solar World stopped making modules with the metal strip on the frame for back mounting; folks complained and they brought back the provision for back mounting. But as you say the frames are very thin these days and the module area is huge - especially compared to the 75 watt modules I started with. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 3/10/2024 1:14 AM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > > That's just distortion in the image, from when I zoomed and cropped > it.  Its module frame direct to the 2" angle aluminum support rail. > Nothing in between.  High winds ripped two other modules completely > off the rack leaving all the hardware still attached with a bit of > module frame still under the washers . > > This is on a mountain top in Wyoming.   Believe me, when I tell you > that bottom mounting is no longer a safe method with today's big > modules, at least not in high wind situations (> 90 mph).  I measured > the thickness of the module frame, and its about 1/2 the thickness of > an old Siemens SP75 that I compared it to.  These were Solar World > modules, but I've noticed most modules today have significantly less > robust frames than the old days. > > More surface area to catch the wind + thinner metal = failure at high > enough wind speed. > > BTW, the rack is a DPW high wind model, both the rack and the 4" pole > didn't budge at all, just the modules themselves.  I've had a second > system, same configuration have similar damage in a wind storm just > last year.  Its just on the top modules, not all of them.  I have > quite a few MT Solar racks with the top down mounting, and no > losses.   I've been  suspicious of top down module racking; and I was > quite satisfied with actual bolts and hardware to hold modules in > place.  But its just not true anymore.    I added 3/4" angle stainless > steel to reinforce the attachments on the top modules. > > > Ray Walters > > On 3/9/2024 12:44 PM, Kent via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Ray, >> >> It appears that there is something between the module frame and rail >> that may have introduced the frame crack. Perhaps as it was >> tightened, and not due to the wind. What is the light material that >> looks like it is sandwiched between the module and rail? >> >> Kent Osterberg >> >> On 3/8/2024 4:23 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Here's another mount at the edge of failure, from the same system. >>> Hardware is tight.  Like many, I had lots of love for good ol' >>> fashion bottom mounting vs top mount, until this happened about 5 >>> years ago. >>> >>> This is how we learn. >>> >>> >>> On 3/8/2024 5:15 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> >>>> I've had several modules pull off of bottom mount racking in high >>>> winds, but never top mount racking.  Newer modules have much >>>> thinner frames, but are much more surface area than the old days. >>>> >>>> >>>> Ray Walters >>>> Remote Solar >>>> >>>> >>>> On 3/8/2024 3:50 PM, Kent via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>> and for the life of me I don't understand the logic of of a top >>>>> mount clamp on a TPM. >>>>> >>>>> Kent Osterberg >>>>> Blue Mountain Solar >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Hardware Upgrade close.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 39644 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Mar 11 19:54:01 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2024 16:54:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Insurance for solar design and inspections In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dave: I have thought about this dilemma pretty carefully in the past. I have come up with a line of logic that works for me. I will try to keep the explanation short but there is some nuance to it that might take some ‘splaning. As a licensed electrical contractor it is my responsibility to design the systems I install, with certain exceptions. I don’t know if this is the correct term, but I call it design/build. My exposure is covered and my requirements are met if I have a general liability policy and the required bonding any contractor would. Coverage for errors and omissions is not required. If the scope of the project is complicated beyond some level then the services of a PE will be required and a wet-stamped plan may be needed, or at least sensible to provide. The client or the building department may require this added service. The level of complexity at which external, licensed design services are needed is subjective. Most electricians don’t need a PE to draw up a new or replacement service or the details of configuring branch circuits, to name a few examples. The requirements can be deduced from the particulars of the project and the language of the NEC. If the contractor is inexperienced, then more design help is needed. If the contractor is more experienced, then more complex projects can be designed in-house. I decide for myself if I am qualified to do the design work, or not. Before a bid is prepared some level of design needs to be accomplished in order to define the scope of the project, specify the materials and predict the labor required. My preference is to design the heck out of any job so I don’t get any unpleasant, expensive surprises once the project commences. I don’t do this level of design work for free. There is always a work order for design time. However I do not always get the contract to perform the physical work. The bid price may be too high or the project may not go forward for any number of reasons. Unless there is some proprietary information in the design, once the customer pays my design fee the customer owns that design and is entitled to deliverables in the form of drawings, calculations, bill of materials, etc. If I hand over those documents but do not install the work, I am essentially working design only, not design/build. However because the intent was to design a project I would build, I don’t worry about that detail. I assume no liability for any part of the project unless I am hired to build it. I have no control over what the client does with the design information once I turn it over. Under this logic I am pretty comfortable providing occasional design-only services as long as I could demonstrate, if asked, that I was operating in good faith on a design/build project. This intent can be satisfied by the language of the work order, specifying the client will provide an opportunity for you to bid on the work in hopes of winning the contract. This approach might work for you or at least give you something to think about. Not everyone is willing to take the same risks. Sorry about all of the words. I could not explain this approach any more concisely. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Sunday, March 10, 2024 3:23 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Dave Tedeyan *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Insurance for solar design and inspections Hi All, I have an insurance question and am very curious about how others deal with this, or don't. People will sometimes ask us to either do some design work for a system that we will not be installing, or to inspect a system and give my professional opinion about it. These are two separate work situations. Recently, our insurance agent brought it to our attention that we should have insurance specifically for these kinds of work, and it is not something that is covered under our general liability (contractors) insurance. Their recommendation for design work is to get "professional liability" (errors and omissions) insurance. Even though I may do one or two designs a year, we are looking at a roughly $12,000 policy. This would be meant to cover us if I make a mistake in the design that leads to some sort of failure or fire. Their recommendation for the inspection type work is to get essentially a home inspector insurance policy for about $2400 per year. Again, this is something that we do a handful of times per year. This insurance is meant to cover us if I inspect a system and miss something that then ends up being a problem or a hazard. With a brief conversation with a lawyer acquaintance, he thought that I may be fine with out these insurances. It sounded like I should have something in my service contracts that would essentially say something like "we will do this work to the best of our ability", and then if something does go wrong and the homeowner takes us to court, it is upon them to prove that we missed something that a reasonable person would have caught. My business manager does not like this because we could still have lots of lawyer fees and have to show up in court if we were to get sued, even if the problem was not caused by a lack of diligence on our part. So my question to all of you is, do you have these insurances? Or do you just not do designs and inspections unless you are actually turning some wrenches on the site so that your general liability insurance covers your work? Or, is this a case of our insurance agent putting ungrounded fears in our head? Thanks for your thoughts. Cheers, Dave -- [image: Logo] *Dave Tedeyan, P.E.Owner | Sungineer Solar* *p: *he | him | his *a: *1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 *w:* www.sungineersolar.com *c:* (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Mon Mar 11 21:41:24 2024 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2024 21:41:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Insurance for solar design and inspections In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: William, et al, As always, a thorough explanation of your considered opinion. Thanks. Food for thought and a question to others who have more insight to the world of insurance and liability than I: My understanding of General Liability insurance, is that it is intended to cover mistakes in the physical work process - that is things like frying a piece of electronics due to faulty installation practices, dropping a hammer onto the pet cat, leaving an exposed conductor that one of the toddlers in the house stumbles upon and decides to see how it tastes, hanging the inverter on a sheetrock wall using toggle anchors, or one of a million mistakes possible during or after the installation. On the other hand, if I design an 10kW inverter to backfeed through an outlet (or more likely a conductor that inadvertently undersized for the distance it is running), or I design something that is compliant with the 2020 code cycle, but unbeknownst to me the jurisdiction I am working in adopted 2023 last week, and the design later is found at fault in a fire that burned the house down, General Liability does not cover me. That is when an E&O policy would come into play and cover my ass. THis is what a previous insurance agent informed me of after being insured through them for 15 years without an E&O policy (thank you very much). If this is true, then it doesn't seem like it matters whether you or someone else does the work, if it is your design that is being used. Without an E&O policy, you potentially own any design errors for the life of the system. I wasn't sure if you were saying that you are comfortable taking on that liability because you have enough faith in your design work, or if your impression is that if you do the installation work, a general liability policy will cover any problems. I would understand the former (although I don't think I would be willing to accept that liability unless perhaps the cost of the policy was prohibitively expensive). If my understanding of these policies is not accurate, then I would love to hear a correct interpretation of what they do and don't cover. Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 8:02 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Dave: > > > > I have thought about this dilemma pretty carefully in the past. I have > come up with a line of logic that works for me. I will try to keep the > explanation short but there is some nuance to it that might take some > ‘splaning. > > > > As a licensed electrical contractor it is my responsibility to design the > systems I install, with certain exceptions. I don’t know if this is the > correct term, but I call it design/build. My exposure is covered and my > requirements are met if I have a general liability policy and the required > bonding any contractor would. Coverage for errors and omissions is not > required. > > > > If the scope of the project is complicated beyond some level then the > services of a PE will be required and a wet-stamped plan may be needed, or > at least sensible to provide. The client or the building department may > require this added service. > > > > The level of complexity at which external, licensed design services are > needed is subjective. Most electricians don’t need a PE to draw up a new > or replacement service or the details of configuring branch circuits, to > name a few examples. The requirements can be deduced from the particulars > of the project and the language of the NEC. If the contractor is > inexperienced, then more design help is needed. If the contractor is more > experienced, then more complex projects can be designed in-house. I decide > for myself if I am qualified to do the design work, or not. > > > > Before a bid is prepared some level of design needs to be accomplished in > order to define the scope of the project, specify the materials and predict > the labor required. My preference is to design the heck out of any job so > I don’t get any unpleasant, expensive surprises once the project > commences. I don’t do this level of design work for free. There is always > a work order for design time. > > > > However I do not always get the contract to perform the physical work. > The bid price may be too high or the project may not go forward for any > number of reasons. > > > > Unless there is some proprietary information in the design, once the > customer pays my design fee the customer owns that design and is entitled > to deliverables in the form of drawings, calculations, bill of materials, > etc. If I hand over those documents but do not install the work, I am > essentially working design only, not design/build. However because the > intent was to design a project I would build, I don’t worry about that > detail. I assume no liability for any part of the project unless I am > hired to build it. I have no control over what the client does with the > design information once I turn it over. > > > > Under this logic I am pretty comfortable providing occasional design-only > services as long as I could demonstrate, if asked, that I was operating in > good faith on a design/build project. This intent can be satisfied by the > language of the work order, specifying the client will provide an > opportunity for you to bid on the work in hopes of winning the contract. > > > > This approach might work for you or at least give you something to think > about. Not everyone is willing to take the same risks. Sorry about all of > the words. I could not explain this approach any more concisely. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Sunday, March 10, 2024 3:23 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Dave Tedeyan > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Insurance for solar design and inspections > > > > Hi All, > > > > I have an insurance question and am very curious about how others deal > with this, or don't. People will sometimes ask us to either do some design > work for a system that we will not be installing, or to inspect a system > and give my professional opinion about it. These are two separate work > situations. > > > > Recently, our insurance agent brought it to our attention that we should > have insurance specifically for these kinds of work, and it is not > something that is covered under our general liability (contractors) > insurance. > > > > Their recommendation for design work is to get "professional liability" > (errors and omissions) insurance. Even though I may do one or two designs a > year, we are looking at a roughly $12,000 policy. This would be meant to > cover us if I make a mistake in the design that leads to some sort of > failure or fire. > > > > Their recommendation for the inspection type work is to get essentially a > home inspector insurance policy for about $2400 per year. Again, this is > something that we do a handful of times per year. This insurance is meant > to cover us if I inspect a system and miss something that then ends up > being a problem or a hazard. > > > > With a brief conversation with a lawyer acquaintance, he thought that I > may be fine with out these insurances. It sounded like I should have > something in my service contracts that would essentially say something like > "we will do this work to the best of our ability", and then if something > does go wrong and the homeowner takes us to court, it is upon them to prove > that we missed something that a reasonable person would have caught. My > business manager does not like this because we could still have lots of > lawyer fees and have to show up in court if we were to get sued, even if > the problem was not caused by a lack of diligence on our part. > > > > So my question to all of you is, do you have these insurances? Or do you > just not do designs and inspections unless you are actually turning some > wrenches on the site so that your general liability insurance covers your > work? Or, is this a case of our insurance agent putting ungrounded fears in > our head? > > > > Thanks for your thoughts. > > Cheers, > > Dave > > > > -- > > [image: Logo] > > > *Dave Tedeyan, P.E.Owner | Sungineer Solar* > > *p: *he | him | his > *a: *1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > *w:* www.sungineersolar.com > *c:* (607) 270-0370 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Mar 12 01:25:50 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2024 23:25:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Insurance for solar design and inspections In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Something else to consider for us small operators:  LLC and incorporation offer some protection as well.  If your company is sued, and then declares bankruptcy, there's not going to be much for the other party's attorneys to go after.  I've heard it described by my attorney, that most attorneys won't even take the case when they hear the defendant is uninsured.  When you are insured, they will sue for exactly what the insurance covers + your liquid assets.  They don't want your old truck and tools. Everything we do, (especially driving) has risk.  We have to decide on a job per job basis whether that risk is acceptable for the amount of money we're charging.  Bigger, more complicated jobs = more risk, therefore more insurance is probably warranted.  Some projects require so much insurance that you can't even do the job.  I worked on some pipeline projects that increased the required insurance to $20 million at a cost of almost $100k/ year.  We don't do that work anymore. This is also why I don't have a bunch of kids running around in trucks making mistakes every day; too much liability.  I closely supervise everything that my company takes responsibility for, and I sleep well at night with my standard contractor's liability insurance. Remember, insurance agents primary goal is to sell more insurance.  Of course they want you to have an E&O policy, too. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 3/11/2024 7:41 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote: > William, et al, > As always, a thorough explanation of your considered opinion. Thanks. > Food for thought and a question to others who have more insight to the > world of insurance and liability than I: > My understanding of General Liability insurance, is that it is > intended to cover mistakes in the physical work process - that is > things like frying a piece of electronics due to faulty installation > practices, dropping a hammer onto the pet cat, leaving an exposed > conductor that one of the toddlers in the house stumbles upon and > decides to see how it tastes, hanging the inverter on a sheetrock wall > using toggle anchors, or one of a million mistakes possible during or > after the installation. On the other hand, if I design an 10kW > inverter to backfeed through an outlet (or more likely a conductor > that inadvertently undersized for the distance it is running), or I > design something that is compliant with the 2020 code cycle, but > unbeknownst to me the jurisdiction I am working in adopted 2023 last > week, and the design later is found at fault in a fire that burned the > house down, General Liability does not cover me.  That is when an E&O > policy would come into play and cover my ass. THis is what a previous > insurance agent informed me of after being insured through them for 15 > years without an E&O policy (thank you very much). If this is true, > then it doesn't seem like it matters whether you or someone else does > the work, if it is your design that is being used. Without an E&O > policy, you potentially own any design errors for the life of the > system. I wasn't sure if you were saying that you are comfortable > taking on that liability because you have enough faith in your design > work, or if your impression is that if you do the installation work, a > general liability policy will cover any problems.  I would understand > the former (although I don't think I would be willing to accept that > liability unless perhaps the cost of the policy was prohibitively > expensive). If my understanding of these policies is not accurate, > then I would love to hear a correct interpretation of what they do and > don't cover. > > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > > > On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 8:02 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Dave: > > I have thought about this dilemma pretty carefully in the past.  I > have come up with a line of logic that works for me.  I will try > to keep the explanation short but there is some nuance to it that > might take some ‘splaning. > > As a licensed electrical contractor it is my responsibility to > design the systems I install, with certain exceptions.  I don’t > know if this is the correct term, but I call it design/build.  My > exposure is covered and my requirements are met if I have a > general liability policy and the required bonding any contractor > would.  Coverage for errors and omissions is not required. > > If the scope of the project is complicated beyond some level then > the services of a PE will be required and a wet-stamped plan may > be needed, or at least sensible to provide.  The client or the > building department may require this added service. > > The level of complexity at which external, licensed design > services are needed is subjective.  Most electricians don’t need a > PE to draw up a new or replacement service or the details of > configuring branch circuits, to name a few examples.  The > requirements can be deduced from the particulars of the project > and the language of the NEC.  If the contractor is inexperienced, > then more design help is needed.  If the contractor is more > experienced, then more complex projects can be designed in-house.  > I decide for myself if I am qualified to do the design work, or not. > > Before a bid is prepared some level of design needs to be > accomplished in order to define the scope of the project, specify > the materials and predict the labor required.  My preference is to > design the heck out of any job so I don’t get any unpleasant, > expensive surprises once the project commences.  I don’t do this > level of design work for free.  There is always a work order for > design time. > > However I do not always get the contract to perform the physical > work.  The bid price may be too high or the project may not go > forward for any number of reasons. > > Unless there is some proprietary information in the design, once > the customer pays my design fee the customer owns that design and > is entitled to deliverables in the form of drawings, calculations, > bill of materials, etc.  If I hand over those documents but do not > install the work, I am essentially working design only, not > design/build.  However because the intent was to design a project > I would build, I don’t worry about that detail.  I assume no > liability for any part of the project unless I am hired to build > it.  I have no control over what the client does with the design > information once I turn it over. > > Under this logic I am pretty comfortable providing occasional > design-only services as long as I could demonstrate, if asked, > that I was operating in good faith on a design/build project.  > This intent can be satisfied by the language of the work order, > specifying the client will provide an opportunity for you to bid > on the work in hopes of winning the contract. > > This approach might work for you or at least give you something to > think about.  Not everyone is willing to take the same risks.  > Sorry about all of the words.  I could not explain this approach > any more concisely. > > William > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of > *Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Sunday, March 10, 2024 3:23 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Dave Tedeyan > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Insurance for solar design and inspections > > Hi All, > > I have an insurance question and am very curious about how others > deal with this, or don't. People will sometimes ask us to either > do some design work for a system that we will not be installing, > or to inspect a system and give my professional opinion about it. > These are two separate work situations. > > Recently, our insurance agent brought it to our attention that we > should have insurance specifically for these kinds of work, and it > is not something that is covered under our general liability > (contractors) insurance. > > Their recommendation for design work is to get "professional > liability" (errors and omissions) insurance. Even though I may do > one or two designs a year, we are looking at a roughly $12,000 > policy. This would be meant to cover us if I make a mistake in the > design that leads to some sort of failure or fire. > > Their recommendation for the inspection type work is to get > essentially a home inspector insurance policy for about $2400 per > year. Again, this is something that we do a handful of times per > year. This insurance is meant to cover us if I inspect a system > and miss something that then ends up being a problem or a hazard. > > With a brief conversation with a lawyer acquaintance, he thought > that I may be fine with out these insurances. It sounded like I > should have something in my service contracts that would > essentially say something like "we will do this work to the best > of our ability", and then if something does go wrong and the > homeowner takes us to court, it is upon them to prove that we > missed something that a reasonable person would have caught. My > business manager does not like this because we could still have > lots of lawyer fees and have to show up in court if we were to get > sued, even if the problem was not caused by a lack of diligence on > our part. > > So my question to all of you is, do you have these insurances? Or > do you just not do designs and inspections unless you are actually > turning some wrenches on the site so that your general liability > insurance covers your work? Or, is this a case of our insurance > agent putting ungrounded fears in our head? > > Thanks for your thoughts. > > Cheers, > > Dave > > -- > > Logo > > > > *Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar* > > *p: *he | him | his* > a: *1653 Slaterville Rd.| Ithaca, NY 14850 > *w:* www.sungineersolar.com > *c:* (607) 270-0370 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Mar 12 07:53:31 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 07:53:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Insurance for solar design and inspections In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm with Ray on this. The only thing I will add is that insurers are _weasels_ and will try to get out of anything. You cannot *rely* on insurance for anything. It is inherently unreliable. I think of it as additional risk mitigation beyond what you already do in your course of work to mitigate risk, but there are no guarantees. Consider the assets you are protecting and take reasonable measures. You simply can't insure against every calamity. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Mar 12, 2024 at 1:27 AM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Something else to consider for us small operators: LLC and incorporation > offer some protection as well. If your company is sued, and then declares > bankruptcy, there's not going to be much for the other party's attorneys to > go after. I've heard it described by my attorney, that most attorneys > won't even take the case when they hear the defendant is uninsured. When > you are insured, they will sue for exactly what the insurance covers + your > liquid assets. They don't want your old truck and tools. > > Everything we do, (especially driving) has risk. We have to decide on a > job per job basis whether that risk is acceptable for the amount of money > we're charging. Bigger, more complicated jobs = more risk, therefore more > insurance is probably warranted. Some projects require so much insurance > that you can't even do the job. I worked on some pipeline projects that > increased the required insurance to $20 million at a cost of almost $100k/ > year. We don't do that work anymore. > > This is also why I don't have a bunch of kids running around in trucks > making mistakes every day; too much liability. I closely supervise > everything that my company takes responsibility for, and I sleep well at > night with my standard contractor's liability insurance. > > Remember, insurance agents primary goal is to sell more insurance. Of > course they want you to have an E&O policy, too. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > On 3/11/2024 7:41 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote: > > William, et al, > As always, a thorough explanation of your considered opinion. Thanks. > Food for thought and a question to others who have more insight to the > world of insurance and liability than I: > My understanding of General Liability insurance, is that it is intended to > cover mistakes in the physical work process - that is things like frying a > piece of electronics due to faulty installation practices, dropping a > hammer onto the pet cat, leaving an exposed conductor that one of the > toddlers in the house stumbles upon and decides to see how it tastes, > hanging the inverter on a sheetrock wall using toggle anchors, or one of a > million mistakes possible during or after the installation. On the other > hand, if I design an 10kW inverter to backfeed through an outlet (or more > likely a conductor that inadvertently undersized for the distance it is > running), or I design something that is compliant with the 2020 code cycle, > but unbeknownst to me the jurisdiction I am working in adopted 2023 last > week, and the design later is found at fault in a fire that burned the > house down, General Liability does not cover me. That is when an E&O > policy would come into play and cover my ass. THis is what a previous > insurance agent informed me of after being insured through them for 15 > years without an E&O policy (thank you very much). If this is true, then it > doesn't seem like it matters whether you or someone else does the work, if > it is your design that is being used. Without an E&O policy, you > potentially own any design errors for the life of the system. I wasn't sure > if you were saying that you are comfortable taking on that liability > because you have enough faith in your design work, or if your impression is > that if you do the installation work, a general liability policy will cover > any problems. I would understand the former (although I don't think I > would be willing to accept that liability unless perhaps the cost of the > policy was prohibitively expensive). If my understanding of these policies > is not accurate, then I would love to hear a correct interpretation of what > they do and don't cover. > > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > > > On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 8:02 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Dave: >> >> >> >> I have thought about this dilemma pretty carefully in the past. I have >> come up with a line of logic that works for me. I will try to keep the >> explanation short but there is some nuance to it that might take some >> ‘splaning. >> >> >> >> As a licensed electrical contractor it is my responsibility to design the >> systems I install, with certain exceptions. I don’t know if this is the >> correct term, but I call it design/build. My exposure is covered and my >> requirements are met if I have a general liability policy and the required >> bonding any contractor would. Coverage for errors and omissions is not >> required. >> >> >> >> If the scope of the project is complicated beyond some level then the >> services of a PE will be required and a wet-stamped plan may be needed, or >> at least sensible to provide. The client or the building department may >> require this added service. >> >> >> >> The level of complexity at which external, licensed design services are >> needed is subjective. Most electricians don’t need a PE to draw up a new >> or replacement service or the details of configuring branch circuits, to >> name a few examples. The requirements can be deduced from the particulars >> of the project and the language of the NEC. If the contractor is >> inexperienced, then more design help is needed. If the contractor is more >> experienced, then more complex projects can be designed in-house. I decide >> for myself if I am qualified to do the design work, or not. >> >> >> >> Before a bid is prepared some level of design needs to be accomplished in >> order to define the scope of the project, specify the materials and predict >> the labor required. My preference is to design the heck out of any job so >> I don’t get any unpleasant, expensive surprises once the project >> commences. I don’t do this level of design work for free. There is always >> a work order for design time. >> >> >> >> However I do not always get the contract to perform the physical work. >> The bid price may be too high or the project may not go forward for any >> number of reasons. >> >> >> >> Unless there is some proprietary information in the design, once the >> customer pays my design fee the customer owns that design and is entitled >> to deliverables in the form of drawings, calculations, bill of materials, >> etc. If I hand over those documents but do not install the work, I am >> essentially working design only, not design/build. However because the >> intent was to design a project I would build, I don’t worry about that >> detail. I assume no liability for any part of the project unless I am >> hired to build it. I have no control over what the client does with the >> design information once I turn it over. >> >> >> >> Under this logic I am pretty comfortable providing occasional design-only >> services as long as I could demonstrate, if asked, that I was operating in >> good faith on a design/build project. This intent can be satisfied by the >> language of the work order, specifying the client will provide an >> opportunity for you to bid on the work in hopes of winning the contract. >> >> >> >> This approach might work for you or at least give you something to think >> about. Not everyone is willing to take the same risks. Sorry about all of >> the words. I could not explain this approach any more concisely. >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Sunday, March 10, 2024 3:23 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* Dave Tedeyan >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Insurance for solar design and inspections >> >> >> >> Hi All, >> >> >> >> I have an insurance question and am very curious about how others deal >> with this, or don't. People will sometimes ask us to either do some design >> work for a system that we will not be installing, or to inspect a system >> and give my professional opinion about it. These are two separate work >> situations. >> >> >> >> Recently, our insurance agent brought it to our attention that we should >> have insurance specifically for these kinds of work, and it is not >> something that is covered under our general liability (contractors) >> insurance. >> >> >> >> Their recommendation for design work is to get "professional liability" >> (errors and omissions) insurance. Even though I may do one or two designs a >> year, we are looking at a roughly $12,000 policy. This would be meant to >> cover us if I make a mistake in the design that leads to some sort of >> failure or fire. >> >> >> >> Their recommendation for the inspection type work is to get essentially a >> home inspector insurance policy for about $2400 per year. Again, this is >> something that we do a handful of times per year. This insurance is meant >> to cover us if I inspect a system and miss something that then ends up >> being a problem or a hazard. >> >> >> >> With a brief conversation with a lawyer acquaintance, he thought that I >> may be fine with out these insurances. It sounded like I should have >> something in my service contracts that would essentially say something like >> "we will do this work to the best of our ability", and then if something >> does go wrong and the homeowner takes us to court, it is upon them to prove >> that we missed something that a reasonable person would have caught. My >> business manager does not like this because we could still have lots of >> lawyer fees and have to show up in court if we were to get sued, even if >> the problem was not caused by a lack of diligence on our part. >> >> >> >> So my question to all of you is, do you have these insurances? Or do you >> just not do designs and inspections unless you are actually turning some >> wrenches on the site so that your general liability insurance covers your >> work? Or, is this a case of our insurance agent putting ungrounded fears in >> our head? >> >> >> >> Thanks for your thoughts. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Dave >> >> >> >> -- >> >> [image: Logo] >> >> >> *Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar* >> >> *p: *he | him | his >> * a: *1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> *w:* www.sungineersolar.com >> *c:* (607) 270-0370 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Mar 12 12:35:16 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 09:35:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding customer to Optics RE system-Solved Message-ID: Friends: I discovered the cause of my problems: The customer has multiple email addresses. When he created his account on Optics he used a different email address from the one he gave me to use in the invitation. Once we got on the same email address we connected successfully. Thank for the advice. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* Nick A Lucchese [mailto:lucchesesolar at me.com] *Sent:* Wednesday, February 21, 2024 11:46 AM *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding customer to Optics RE system Greetings William, I think the trick is to have the customer wait until they get the invite and not have them create an account ahead of time. However on your end, it does say something about the client being able to add the system if they already have an account. I too have come across this exact headache you’re referring to and seems like it always resolves itself by way of the invitation email the installer initiates. Hope that helps. I know luck shouldn't need be associated but, good luck! Nick On Feb 21, 2024, at 11:12 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Friends: This is a subject that has frustrated me for a long time. I have asked Outback Tech support but none of their people do this because they are not customers. I will connect anew system to Optics and send the client an invitation. The customer creates and account and then is directed to a page that shows this: There is only one link to click and it takes you to this: Again, you have only one choice. The next step prompts to enter a MAC address but that MAC address is already in the system and the system will not let the customer proceed. I have dealt with this for years. Some customers stumble onto the solution but if I look over someone’s shoulder I do not see how to log into an existing system. Anyone know what I am missing? Thanks in advance. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Wed Mar 13 17:19:43 2024 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2024 15:19:43 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Redundant gensets: Must I switch the neutral in the manual transfer switch? Message-ID: Hi, Mechanix~ My off grid project gig has redundant 120y208 generators that need a 200a "break before make" manual transfer switch so the clients can choose machine A or machine B. The switch has a lockable center-off but I think the generators aren't set up for "lock out tag out". The machines & the xfer switch will all be indoors and about 10 feet apart. The AC power wires from each generator will be hard-wired to the transfer switch & piped in EMT. I had planned for the transfer switch to have a "solid neutral" bus bar (& I had planned to bond Neutral to Ground in that box), but a consulting EE tells me the neutral must be switched along with the three hots. The project is too remote to have an AHJ, but the clients have requested a wet stamp from the EE. I think his rationale is related to the N-G bond point location. When I asked about his suggested location, the EE wrote: "The N-G bond will be at each generator, so the neutral will be generated at the generator providing power to the facilities." Mick resumes: The genset installation document says "The generator set is shipped from the factory with the neutral and equipment ground not bonded together." So...these gensets are not like those portables where it's difficult to isolate the neutral. I've attached an image that shows what the EE is advocating. The manual xfer switch that I wish to use isn't made in "four poles" without going to the 400 amp version and the 400a switch won't physically fit the available space. Can I make a credible case for the transfer switch being the "point of first disconnect" instead of each generator taking turns at being the POFD? If the transfer switch is also the bond point, can't the Neutral from each generator happily meet at the neutral bus bar? OR: might the EE have a concern about a loop (from the Neutral of one genset through the bus bar then showing up on the terminal strip for the other genset? Code citations would be appreciated along with your advice, Wrenchies. During service intervals, both engines will be running for a brief interval. Example: Gen A may be carrying the loads while the mechanic manually runs Gen B as he completes an oil change. If I wire it as the EE wishes, will both running machines play well safety-wise if each genset has a N-G bond (with the equipment ground as their only common connection)? How would the safety aspects change if both machines are running but I've wired things per my original concept? Thanks as always, Mechanix. "The Wrench List is the Bomb!" Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EE image from Mick.png Type: image/png Size: 71383 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Mar 13 17:51:18 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2024 15:51:18 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Redundant gensets: Must I switch the neutral in the manual transfer switch? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've gotten into discussions like this before with EEs.  They are not experts at what we do, and can get confused, and go down strange rabbit holes like the rest of us.  I agree with you that not switching the Neutrals is the way to go.  Its how we've always done it in most scenarios.  It only makes sense to have separately derived systems as he is advocating, if you were including a portable gen set input, since that gen set might have N-G bonded. Even if you separated the N-G bond on the portable generator, there's the chance they could connect up another generator later that was internally bonded.    None of this applies to your scenario from what you described, though. The other problem I've had with EEs, is that once they make a decision, they don't really want to articulate the "Why" behind that decision.  Very frustrating for the rest of us trying to understand and learn.  I've asked for code references, etc. and they just have blown me off.  Another reason I've moved away from consulting on larger projects. I would take a look at 250.30, which says multiple parallel power sources should be treated as a single separately derived system. Exception 1 specifically says a single N-G bond is allowed for multiple power sources. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 3/13/2024 3:19 PM, Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi, Mechanix~ > > My off grid project gig has redundant 120y208 generators that need a > 200a "break before make" manual transfer switch so the clients can > choose machine A or machine B. The switch has a lockable center-off > but I think the generators aren't set up for "lock out tag out". The > machines & the xfer switch will all be indoors and about 10 feet > apart. The AC power wires from each generator will be hard-wired to > the transfer switch & piped in EMT. I had planned for the transfer > switch to have a "solid neutral" bus bar (& I had planned to bond > Neutral to Ground in that box), but a consulting EE tells me the > neutral must be switched along with the three hots. The project is too > remote to have an AHJ, but the clients have requested a wet stamp from > the EE. > > I think his rationale is related to the N-G bond point location. When > I asked about his suggested location, the EE wrote: "The N-G bond will > be at each generator, so the neutral will be generated at the > generator providing power to the facilities." > > Mick resumes: The genset installation document says "The generator set > is shipped from the factory with the neutral and equipment ground not > bonded together." So...these gensets are not like those portables > where it's difficult to isolate the neutral. I've attached an image > that shows what the EE is advocating. The manual xfer switch that I > wish to use isn't made in "four poles" without going to the 400 amp > version and the 400a switch won't physically fit the available space. > > Can I make a credible case for the transfer switch being the "point of > first disconnect" instead of each generator taking turns at being the > POFD? If the transfer switch is also the bond point, can't the Neutral > from each generator happily meet at the neutral bus bar? OR: might the > EE have a concern about a loop (from the Neutral of one genset through > the bus bar then showing up on the terminal strip for the other > genset? Code citations would be appreciated along with your advice, > Wrenchies. > > During service intervals, both engines will be running for a > brief interval. Example: Gen A may be carrying the loads while the > mechanic manually runs Gen B as he completes an oil change. If I wire > it as the EE wishes, will both running machines play well safety-wise > if each genset has a N-G bond (with the equipment ground as their only > common connection)? How would the safety aspects change if both > machines are running but I've wired things per my original concept? > > Thanks as always, Mechanix. "The Wrench List is the Bomb!" > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Landline: 970-731-4675 > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > ᐧ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Wed Mar 13 19:01:41 2024 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2024 16:01:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Redundant gensets: Must I switch the neutral in the manual transfer switch? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: First, I'll say that I agree with William's discussion. Let me add another way of thinking about this: Assume that, instead on two generators, your system is one backup generator and one utility company serving a commercial building. If the disconnect switch is your service connection, there will be a N-G bond located there and none will be allowed in the generator. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 3/13/2024 2:19 PM, Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi, Mechanix~ > > My off grid project gig has redundant 120y208 generators that need a > 200a "break before make" manual transfer switch so the clients can > choose machine A or machine B. The switch has a lockable center-off > but I think the generators aren't set up for "lock out tag out". The > machines & the xfer switch will all be indoors and about 10 feet > apart. The AC power wires from each generator will be hard-wired to > the transfer switch & piped in EMT. I had planned for the transfer > switch to have a "solid neutral" bus bar (& I had planned to bond > Neutral to Ground in that box), but a consulting EE tells me the > neutral must be switched along with the three hots. The project is too > remote to have an AHJ, but the clients have requested a wet stamp from > the EE. > > I think his rationale is related to the N-G bond point location. When > I asked about his suggested location, the EE wrote: "The N-G bond will > be at each generator, so the neutral will be generated at the > generator providing power to the facilities." > > Mick resumes: The genset installation document says "The generator set > is shipped from the factory with the neutral and equipment ground not > bonded together." So...these gensets are not like those portables > where it's difficult to isolate the neutral. I've attached an image > that shows what the EE is advocating. The manual xfer switch that I > wish to use isn't made in "four poles" without going to the 400 amp > version and the 400a switch won't physically fit the available space. > > Can I make a credible case for the transfer switch being the "point of > first disconnect" instead of each generator taking turns at being the > POFD? If the transfer switch is also the bond point, can't the Neutral > from each generator happily meet at the neutral bus bar? OR: might the > EE have a concern about a loop (from the Neutral of one genset through > the bus bar then showing up on the terminal strip for the other > genset? Code citations would be appreciated along with your advice, > Wrenchies. > > During service intervals, both engines will be running for a > brief interval. Example: Gen A may be carrying the loads while the > mechanic manually runs Gen B as he completes an oil change. If I wire > it as the EE wishes, will both running machines play well safety-wise > if each genset has a N-G bond (with the equipment ground as their only > common connection)? How would the safety aspects change if both > machines are running but I've wired things per my original concept? > > Thanks as always, Mechanix. "The Wrench List is the Bomb!" > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Landline: 970-731-4675 > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > ᐧ > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Mar 15 12:49:31 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2024 10:49:31 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enohase tech support Message-ID: <33B94CA9-45EB-42DD-85D0-37CB77F0F90C@gmail.com> Hi all Is there anyway to get tech support with remote coms? I got a call just the other day from someone with an envoy. It’s stopped communicating to enohase. Enphase says they need the installer who’s now gone. They just won’t help the customer. It’s about a 5 hr round trip for me. Which is nuts as I’ll have to communicate with enohase anyway. And I’ve heard rhis exact issue multiple times from numerous people. Envoy has lights but has stopped communicating. I’ve heard enohase tech say “the panels are wired wrong. “. You mean they magically changed after 10 years? Does anyone have a person/number etc of who will help them? Thanks Jay From david at quattrosolar.com Fri Mar 15 13:49:51 2024 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2024 10:49:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enohase tech support In-Reply-To: <33B94CA9-45EB-42DD-85D0-37CB77F0F90C@gmail.com> References: <33B94CA9-45EB-42DD-85D0-37CB77F0F90C@gmail.com> Message-ID: wow, your experience is worse than anything I've ever heard of from Enphase tech support. My experience with them is this: they know their old Envoys are garbage (the M-Series are failing left and right now). The executives made the decision that they will no longer manufacture new M-Envoys. I don't know their posture regarding S-Series, I haven't seen those fail yet. So instead of selling you a good brand new M-Envoy, they try to connive you into replacing 100% of your microinverters with IQ-Enphase - you know, because they are such a great, responsible company. Actual options moving forward are to find a used M-Series Envoy that you have tested in-house before you go on your 5 hour drive. I have one I can sell you. Or you deliver the bad news to the customer and tell them the truth - they are flying blind without a functioning Envoy. Ground mounts aren't that bad since you could teach the customer to walk up and verify PV current on each module with a decent meter. For me essentially all of my Enphase fleet went onto residential rooftops where regular access is not an option. What kills me about Enphase is that every step of the way over the last 15 years - EVERY single time they changed their inverter architecture, they promised that all the new stuff would be backward compatible with old gear. And every single time, they were full of it. On Fri, Mar 15, 2024 at 9:49 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi all > > Is there anyway to get tech support with remote coms? > > I got a call just the other day from someone with an envoy. It’s stopped > communicating to enohase. Enphase says they need the installer who’s now > gone. > They just won’t help the customer. > It’s about a 5 hr round trip for me. Which is nuts as I’ll have to > communicate with enohase anyway. > > And I’ve heard rhis exact issue multiple times from numerous people. Envoy > has lights but has stopped communicating. I’ve heard enohase tech say “the > panels are wired wrong. “. You mean they magically changed after 10 years? > > Does anyone have a person/number etc of who will help them? > > Thanks > Jay > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Mar 15 14:05:57 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2024 12:05:57 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enohase tech support In-Reply-To: References: <33B94CA9-45EB-42DD-85D0-37CB77F0F90C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7BC47A46-8AFD-4DDD-A6E8-B32EAA7142CE@gmail.com> Hi David. This one is a standard newer version Envoy S. I’ve had this exact same issue of tech “support” numerous times. I had to go to my neighbors to confirm that the panels were wired correctly, after they had been installed for years. I’m not making this up. Seems to really depend on who you get on the phone if they will help you or not which isn’t good. Thats why I”m looking for any help to find the right phone number or person who will/can help. I’m guessing its either the envoy needs to be rebooted or its broken. thanks jay > On Mar 15, 2024, at 11:49 AM, david quattro wrote: > > wow, your experience is worse than anything I've ever heard of from Enphase tech support. My experience with them is this: they know their old Envoys are garbage (the M-Series are failing left and right now). The executives made the decision that they will no longer manufacture new M-Envoys. I don't know their posture regarding S-Series, I haven't seen those fail yet. So instead of selling you a good brand new M-Envoy, they try to connive you into replacing 100% of your microinverters with IQ-Enphase - you know, because they are such a great, responsible company. > Actual options moving forward are to find a used M-Series Envoy that you have tested in-house before you go on your 5 hour drive. I have one I can sell you. Or you deliver the bad news to the customer and tell them the truth - they are flying blind without a functioning Envoy. Ground mounts aren't that bad since you could teach the customer to walk up and verify PV current on each module with a decent meter. For me essentially all of my Enphase fleet went onto residential rooftops where regular access is not an option. What kills me about Enphase is that every step of the way over the last 15 years - EVERY single time they changed their inverter architecture, they promised that all the new stuff would be backward compatible with old gear. And every single time, they were full of it. > > On Fri, Mar 15, 2024 at 9:49 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Hi all > > Is there anyway to get tech support with remote coms? > > I got a call just the other day from someone with an envoy. It’s stopped communicating to enohase. Enphase says they need the installer who’s now gone. > They just won’t help the customer. > It’s about a 5 hr round trip for me. Which is nuts as I’ll have to communicate with enohase anyway. > > And I’ve heard rhis exact issue multiple times from numerous people. Envoy has lights but has stopped communicating. I’ve heard enohase tech say “the panels are wired wrong. “. You mean they magically changed after 10 years? > > Does anyone have a person/number etc of who will help them? > > Thanks > Jay > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Mar 15 17:38:35 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2024 21:38:35 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enohase tech support In-Reply-To: <7BC47A46-8AFD-4DDD-A6E8-B32EAA7142CE@gmail.com> References: <33B94CA9-45EB-42DD-85D0-37CB77F0F90C@gmail.com> <7BC47A46-8AFD-4DDD-A6E8-B32EAA7142CE@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, I wlll contact you off list and give you my number. The rest below is for your and everyone else's benefit. My experience with Enphase has been wonderful, but I've been installing Enphase since 2009 and I know all of the ins and outs and lingo. Customer service doesn't have a chance against me usually. They do have many many great front line CS reps and a great escalations team. You have to know the right things to say to get the answers you need. You also need to know when to challenge them when they give you nonsense, usually about potential wiring issues and most famously for "noise" on the powerline that magically appears. The number one service call we get is the Gateway is disconnected, and it's usually a Wi-Fi issue. With that said, it's unclear which "Envoy" now called a "Gateway" your client has. The original one is the Envoy-R. It has a screen and it connected via Ethernet or via a USB Wi-Fi dongle that is not longer available. These -R units failed in droves and only has 1 or 2 year warranties. They will get stuck on "Booting," or say device failure or have gibberish characters on the screen. These all indicate failure and will require replacement. The solution is to replace it with a Envoy S [https://mailtrack.io/l/9b4cb649cee9a6ce07d093e98183390a51f253a2?url=https%3A%2F%2Fenphase.com%2Fstore%2Fcommunication%2Fenvoy-s-standard&u=1613865&signature=c41bf726d6602b80], which is a 120V plug-in version of the hardwired version, the Envoy S Metered [https://mailtrack.io/l/f363348ddf4bcbe95c2187c1ebaada3d07debe60?url=https%3A%2F%2Fenphase.com%2Fstore%2Fcommunication%2Fenvoy-s-metered&u=1613865&signature=f5c9f6526c9b1a5a], which includes a production CT and the capability of doing consumption monitoring. These are both available from the Enphase Store (links provided). The Envoy S is far more reliable and has a 5 year warranty. It has integrated WiFi and Ethernet. It can also use a cell modem (at a significant extra cost). You can easily determine the type of Envoy the customer has now in the Enlighten Manager or Enlighten consumer app. You can also call Enphase if you have the serial number. If the client has a Envoy S, Envoy S Metered, or IQ Gateway (previously called the IQ Envoy), the issue may be as simple as reconnecting the device to the client's WiFi. They can do that in their own app or you can do it with the Installer Toolkit app. DO NOT buy an Envoy-R on eBay or elsewhere. Many of them didn't receive security updates because they were in a box and not web-connected, so they will not work with the Enlighten web portal anymore.  One more thing... Many times we find that Envoys/Gateways are connected via a WiFi extender. These cheap consumer devices tend to fail. Sometimes unplug/replug works. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Fri, Mar 15, 2024 at 2:12 PM jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi David. > > > This one is a standard newer version Envoy S.   > > > I’ve had this exact same issue of tech “support” numerous times.  I had to go > to my neighbors to confirm that the panels were wired correctly, after they > had been installed for years.  I’m not making this up. > > > Seems to really depend on who you get on the phone if they will help you or > not which isn’t good.  > > > Thats why I”m looking for any help to find the right phone number or person > who will/can help. > > > I’m guessing its either the envoy needs to be rebooted or its broken.  > > > thanks > > > jay > > > > > > > > On Mar 15, 2024, at 11:49 AM, david quattro > [david at quattrosolar.com]> wrote: > > > > wow, your experience is worse than anything I've ever heard of from Enphase > > tech support. My experience with them is this: they know their old Envoys > > are garbage (the M-Series are failing left and right now). The executives > > made the decision that they will no longer manufacture new M-Envoys. I don't > > know their posture regarding S-Series, I haven't seen those fail yet. So > > instead of selling you a good brand new M-Envoy, they try to connive you > > into replacing 100% of your microinverters with IQ-Enphase - you know, > > because they are such a great, responsible company. > >   Actual options moving forward are to find a used M-Series Envoy that you > > have tested in-house before you go on your 5 hour drive. I have one I can > > sell you. Or you deliver the bad news to the customer and tell them the > > truth - they are flying blind without a functioning Envoy.  Ground mounts > > aren't that bad since you could teach the customer to walk up and verify PV > > current on each module with a decent meter.  For me essentially all of my > > Enphase fleet went onto residential rooftops where regular access is not an > > option. What kills me about Enphase is that every step of the way over the > > last 15 years - EVERY single time they changed their inverter architecture, > > they promised that all the new stuff would be backward compatible with old > > gear. And every single time, they were full of it. > > > > On Fri, Mar 15, 2024 at 9:49 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrenches.org [re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org]> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi all > > > > > > Is there anyway to get tech support with remote coms? > > > > > > I got a call just the other day from someone with an envoy. It’s stopped > > > communicating to enohase. Enphase says they need the installer who’s now > > > gone. > > > They just won’t help the customer. > > > It’s about a 5 hr round trip for me. Which is nuts as I’ll have to > > > communicate with enohase anyway. > > > > > > And I’ve heard rhis exact issue multiple times from numerous people. Envoy > > > has lights but has stopped communicating. I’ve heard enohase tech say “the > > > panels are wired wrong. “. You mean they magically changed after 10 years? > > > > > > Does anyone have a person/number etc of who will help them? > > > > > > Thanks > > > Jay > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > [http://re-wrenches.org/] > > > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > [RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > > > other: > > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > > [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > > > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/] > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [http://re-wrenches.org] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > [RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Mar 15 17:51:49 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2024 17:51:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enohase tech support In-Reply-To: <7BC47A46-8AFD-4DDD-A6E8-B32EAA7142CE@gmail.com> References: <33B94CA9-45EB-42DD-85D0-37CB77F0F90C@gmail.com> <7BC47A46-8AFD-4DDD-A6E8-B32EAA7142CE@gmail.com> Message-ID: Somehow I missed that you said it's an Envoy-S. Which lights are on? There are four, left to right: 1. Cloud connected the Enphase Enlighten (normally green, red if WiFi connected but no Internet) 2. Installer WiFi Access Point (normally off) 3. All assigned micros producing power (normally green) 4. All assigned micros communicating with Envoy (normally green) If the first light is red or off, it just needs to be reconnected to a working Wi-Fi network. The consumer can do that in their app (Menu | Settings | Connectivity). If it's off, it could be a number of things, but usually, the WiFi network is no longer available, or the Envoy has glitched out. Either way, reconnecting it usually works. Sometimes it can be a frustrating series of reboots to get it going. But the app will walk them through the steps. Enphase WILL help the consumer directly with this, but if they have directed the customer to their installer, either the customer is technology-challenged, or the Installer Toolkit is required to forget the original network and then reconnect to the new one (or the same one sometimes). One other thing... Some of those units may have been Cellular connected, and the 5-year data plan may have expired. Enphase can tell you how it was last connected with the serial number or site ID. That would be a good call to make before heading out there. The solution could be as simple as connecting it to their WiFi. Sometimes installers don't want the hassle of WiFi issues, so they just pop in a cellular modem. I have seen a number of national installers do that. It is not good practice. Ethernet is best and WiFi works well usually. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Fri, Mar 15, 2024 at 2:12 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi David. > > This one is a standard newer version Envoy S. > > I’ve had this exact same issue of tech “support” numerous times. I had to > go to my neighbors to confirm that the panels were wired correctly, after > they had been installed for years. I’m not making this up. > > Seems to really depend on who you get on the phone if they will help you > or not which isn’t good. > > Thats why I”m looking for any help to find the right phone number or > person who will/can help. > > I’m guessing its either the envoy needs to be rebooted or its broken. > > thanks > > jay > > > > On Mar 15, 2024, at 11:49 AM, david quattro > wrote: > > wow, your experience is worse than anything I've ever heard of from > Enphase tech support. My experience with them is this: they know their old > Envoys are garbage (the M-Series are failing left and right now). The > executives made the decision that they will no longer manufacture new > M-Envoys. I don't know their posture regarding S-Series, I haven't seen > those fail yet. So instead of selling you a good brand new M-Envoy, they > try to connive you into replacing 100% of your microinverters with > IQ-Enphase - you know, because they are such a great, responsible company. > Actual options moving forward are to find a used M-Series Envoy that you > have tested in-house before you go on your 5 hour drive. I have one I can > sell you. Or you deliver the bad news to the customer and tell them the > truth - they are flying blind without a functioning Envoy. Ground mounts > aren't that bad since you could teach the customer to walk up and verify PV > current on each module with a decent meter. For me essentially all of my > Enphase fleet went onto residential rooftops where regular access is not an > option. What kills me about Enphase is that every step of the way over the > last 15 years - EVERY single time they changed their inverter architecture, > they promised that all the new stuff would be backward compatible with old > gear. And every single time, they were full of it. > > On Fri, Mar 15, 2024 at 9:49 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi all >> >> Is there anyway to get tech support with remote coms? >> >> I got a call just the other day from someone with an envoy. It’s stopped >> communicating to enohase. Enphase says they need the installer who’s now >> gone. >> They just won’t help the customer. >> It’s about a 5 hr round trip for me. Which is nuts as I’ll have to >> communicate with enohase anyway. >> >> And I’ve heard rhis exact issue multiple times from numerous people. >> Envoy has lights but has stopped communicating. I’ve heard enohase tech say >> “the panels are wired wrong. “. You mean they magically changed after 10 >> years? >> >> Does anyone have a person/number etc of who will help them? >> >> Thanks >> Jay >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Fri Mar 15 18:26:33 2024 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2024 15:26:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enohase tech support In-Reply-To: References: <33B94CA9-45EB-42DD-85D0-37CB77F0F90C@gmail.com> <7BC47A46-8AFD-4DDD-A6E8-B32EAA7142CE@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jason, Very helpful. Thank you I wonder why, after years of calling tech support, nobody at Enphase told me the S is a replacement for the R. it took a compatriot installer/integrator to care enough. On Fri, Mar 15, 2024 at 2:51 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Somehow I missed that you said it's an Envoy-S. Which lights are on? There > are four, left to right: > > > 1. Cloud connected the Enphase Enlighten (normally green, red if WiFi > connected but no Internet) > 2. Installer WiFi Access Point (normally off) > 3. All assigned micros producing power (normally green) > 4. All assigned micros communicating with Envoy (normally green) > > > If the first light is red or off, it just needs to be reconnected to a > working Wi-Fi network. The consumer can do that in their app (Menu | > Settings | Connectivity). If it's off, it could be a number of things, but > usually, the WiFi network is no longer available, or the Envoy has glitched > out. Either way, reconnecting it usually works. Sometimes it can be a > frustrating series of reboots to get it going. But the app will walk them > through the steps. > > Enphase WILL help the consumer directly with this, but if they have > directed the customer to their installer, either the customer > is technology-challenged, or the Installer Toolkit is required to forget > the original network and then reconnect to the new one (or the same one > sometimes). > > One other thing... Some of those units may have been Cellular connected, > and the 5-year data plan may have expired. Enphase can tell you how it was > last connected with the serial number or site ID. That would be a good call > to make before heading out there. The solution could be as simple as > connecting it to their WiFi. Sometimes installers don't want the hassle of > WiFi issues, so they just pop in a cellular modem. I have seen a number of > national installers do that. It is not good practice. Ethernet is best and > WiFi works well usually. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Fri, Mar 15, 2024 at 2:12 PM jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi David. >> >> This one is a standard newer version Envoy S. >> >> I’ve had this exact same issue of tech “support” numerous times. I had >> to go to my neighbors to confirm that the panels were wired correctly, >> after they had been installed for years. I’m not making this up. >> >> Seems to really depend on who you get on the phone if they will help you >> or not which isn’t good. >> >> Thats why I”m looking for any help to find the right phone number or >> person who will/can help. >> >> I’m guessing its either the envoy needs to be rebooted or its broken. >> >> thanks >> >> jay >> >> >> >> On Mar 15, 2024, at 11:49 AM, david quattro >> wrote: >> >> wow, your experience is worse than anything I've ever heard of from >> Enphase tech support. My experience with them is this: they know their old >> Envoys are garbage (the M-Series are failing left and right now). The >> executives made the decision that they will no longer manufacture new >> M-Envoys. I don't know their posture regarding S-Series, I haven't seen >> those fail yet. So instead of selling you a good brand new M-Envoy, they >> try to connive you into replacing 100% of your microinverters with >> IQ-Enphase - you know, because they are such a great, responsible company. >> Actual options moving forward are to find a used M-Series Envoy that >> you have tested in-house before you go on your 5 hour drive. I have one I >> can sell you. Or you deliver the bad news to the customer and tell them the >> truth - they are flying blind without a functioning Envoy. Ground mounts >> aren't that bad since you could teach the customer to walk up and verify PV >> current on each module with a decent meter. For me essentially all of my >> Enphase fleet went onto residential rooftops where regular access is not an >> option. What kills me about Enphase is that every step of the way over the >> last 15 years - EVERY single time they changed their inverter architecture, >> they promised that all the new stuff would be backward compatible with old >> gear. And every single time, they were full of it. >> >> On Fri, Mar 15, 2024 at 9:49 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi all >>> >>> Is there anyway to get tech support with remote coms? >>> >>> I got a call just the other day from someone with an envoy. It’s stopped >>> communicating to enohase. Enphase says they need the installer who’s now >>> gone. >>> They just won’t help the customer. >>> It’s about a 5 hr round trip for me. Which is nuts as I’ll have to >>> communicate with enohase anyway. >>> >>> And I’ve heard rhis exact issue multiple times from numerous people. >>> Envoy has lights but has stopped communicating. I’ve heard enohase tech say >>> “the panels are wired wrong. “. You mean they magically changed after 10 >>> years? >>> >>> Does anyone have a person/number etc of who will help them? >>> >>> Thanks >>> Jay >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Mar 15 21:43:48 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2024 21:43:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enohase tech support In-Reply-To: References: <33B94CA9-45EB-42DD-85D0-37CB77F0F90C@gmail.com> <7BC47A46-8AFD-4DDD-A6E8-B32EAA7142CE@gmail.com> Message-ID: Like someone else suggested, they have a vested interest in upgrading people from the M series to IQ microinverters to get out of the warranty obligation the M series presents. Sadly, Enphase's upgrade program was really designed to benefit Enphase in my opinion. So fixing the Envoy-R debacle probably wasn't high priority. To be fair, my 10+ year old M250 micros at home have been great with only a 5% failure rate. My Envoy-R failed, but I wanted the -S Metered for the consumption monitoring anyway. So the M250 was a huge leap over the M215 and M190, and the -S offered some advantages over the -R. In that respect, it shows Enphase has had a rapid and continuous increase in reliability. That kept me on board all these years. The same thing happened from the IQ Battery 3/10T to the 5P. They worked out the major issues with the previous generations. I'm not saying that Enphase is without faults by any stretch, but they have been a reliable partner for those of us that have been there from the early days and who have learned to cut through the nonsense you get from Customer Service at times. Nobody can deny that they answer the phone quickly by industry standards (although they had a brief period where that was not the case). If you push and advocate for your customer and develop relationships with your Enphase reps, you can move mountains when necessary. Anyway, enough with the ENPH advertisement. Full disclaimer: I own zero ENPH stock. I'm just sharing my experience. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Fri, Mar 15, 2024, 6:26 PM david quattro wrote: > Jason, Very helpful. Thank you > I wonder why, after years of calling tech support, nobody at Enphase told > me the S is a replacement for the R. it took a compatriot > installer/integrator to care enough. > > > On Fri, Mar 15, 2024 at 2:51 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> Somehow I missed that you said it's an Envoy-S. Which lights are on? >> There are four, left to right: >> >> >> 1. Cloud connected the Enphase Enlighten (normally green, red if WiFi >> connected but no Internet) >> 2. Installer WiFi Access Point (normally off) >> 3. All assigned micros producing power (normally green) >> 4. All assigned micros communicating with Envoy (normally green) >> >> >> If the first light is red or off, it just needs to be reconnected to a >> working Wi-Fi network. The consumer can do that in their app (Menu | >> Settings | Connectivity). If it's off, it could be a number of things, but >> usually, the WiFi network is no longer available, or the Envoy has glitched >> out. Either way, reconnecting it usually works. Sometimes it can be a >> frustrating series of reboots to get it going. But the app will walk them >> through the steps. >> >> Enphase WILL help the consumer directly with this, but if they have >> directed the customer to their installer, either the customer >> is technology-challenged, or the Installer Toolkit is required to forget >> the original network and then reconnect to the new one (or the same one >> sometimes). >> >> One other thing... Some of those units may have been Cellular connected, >> and the 5-year data plan may have expired. Enphase can tell you how it was >> last connected with the serial number or site ID. That would be a good call >> to make before heading out there. The solution could be as simple as >> connecting it to their WiFi. Sometimes installers don't want the hassle of >> WiFi issues, so they just pop in a cellular modem. I have seen a number of >> national installers do that. It is not good practice. Ethernet is best and >> WiFi works well usually. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Fri, Mar 15, 2024 at 2:12 PM jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi David. >>> >>> This one is a standard newer version Envoy S. >>> >>> I’ve had this exact same issue of tech “support” numerous times. I had >>> to go to my neighbors to confirm that the panels were wired correctly, >>> after they had been installed for years. I’m not making this up. >>> >>> Seems to really depend on who you get on the phone if they will help you >>> or not which isn’t good. >>> >>> Thats why I”m looking for any help to find the right phone number or >>> person who will/can help. >>> >>> I’m guessing its either the envoy needs to be rebooted or its broken. >>> >>> thanks >>> >>> jay >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mar 15, 2024, at 11:49 AM, david quattro >>> wrote: >>> >>> wow, your experience is worse than anything I've ever heard of from >>> Enphase tech support. My experience with them is this: they know their old >>> Envoys are garbage (the M-Series are failing left and right now). The >>> executives made the decision that they will no longer manufacture new >>> M-Envoys. I don't know their posture regarding S-Series, I haven't seen >>> those fail yet. So instead of selling you a good brand new M-Envoy, they >>> try to connive you into replacing 100% of your microinverters with >>> IQ-Enphase - you know, because they are such a great, responsible company. >>> Actual options moving forward are to find a used M-Series Envoy that >>> you have tested in-house before you go on your 5 hour drive. I have one I >>> can sell you. Or you deliver the bad news to the customer and tell them the >>> truth - they are flying blind without a functioning Envoy. Ground mounts >>> aren't that bad since you could teach the customer to walk up and verify PV >>> current on each module with a decent meter. For me essentially all of my >>> Enphase fleet went onto residential rooftops where regular access is not an >>> option. What kills me about Enphase is that every step of the way over the >>> last 15 years - EVERY single time they changed their inverter architecture, >>> they promised that all the new stuff would be backward compatible with old >>> gear. And every single time, they were full of it. >>> >>> On Fri, Mar 15, 2024 at 9:49 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all >>>> >>>> Is there anyway to get tech support with remote coms? >>>> >>>> I got a call just the other day from someone with an envoy. It’s >>>> stopped communicating to enohase. Enphase says they need the installer >>>> who’s now gone. >>>> They just won’t help the customer. >>>> It’s about a 5 hr round trip for me. Which is nuts as I’ll have to >>>> communicate with enohase anyway. >>>> >>>> And I’ve heard rhis exact issue multiple times from numerous people. >>>> Envoy has lights but has stopped communicating. I’ve heard enohase tech say >>>> “the panels are wired wrong. “. You mean they magically changed after 10 >>>> years? >>>> >>>> Does anyone have a person/number etc of who will help them? >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> Jay >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Mar 19 15:08:37 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2024 12:08:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA 22 series inverters, resetting AFCI fault Message-ID: <36c5673ddb7a1dbd56a0abdf6c1a0f8e@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I learned something yesterday about the SMA 22 series string inverters: I have a client that experienced an arc-fault shutdown. I tried to reset the error condition by following the procedure in the manual. This involves shutting down the inverter and then knocking on the front panel during re-start when directed. I had no luck. Techs support said to knock harder. I knocked so hard my knuckle started bleeding. Tech support said: sometimes these inverters get “stuck” and you need to connect with a speedwire device to unstick them. The speedwire is no longer made but I did find one to purchase for a little over $200. I have the same inverter at home so I practiced hooking the device up to my inverter. I had some problems so I called tech support and spoke to a different person. He said I don’t need a speedwire, I just need to knock harder with the back of a screwdriver in the correct spot. I went the location with the failure and using a screwdriver tapping vigorously just to the left of the display I got the unit to reset. I am keeping the speedwire because I am paranoid I might need one in the future and not be able to procure one. If anyone wants to borrow the thing, let me know. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Tue Mar 19 16:34:32 2024 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2024 15:34:32 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA 22 series inverters, resetting AFCI fault In-Reply-To: <36c5673ddb7a1dbd56a0abdf6c1a0f8e@mail.gmail.com> References: <36c5673ddb7a1dbd56a0abdf6c1a0f8e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <04b101da7a3c$d9e99000$8dbcb000$@solarcentex.com> LOL – the knocking to reset arc faults always drove me nuts! How many times did I miss the knocking window only to turn off, then back on and wait for just that right moment to knock. But not too lightly and certainly not too hard. Can’t believe SMA thought this was a good way to do this. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of William Miller via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2024 2:09 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: William Miller Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA 22 series inverters, resetting AFCI fault Friends: I learned something yesterday about the SMA 22 series string inverters: I have a client that experienced an arc-fault shutdown. I tried to reset the error condition by following the procedure in the manual. This involves shutting down the inverter and then knocking on the front panel during re-start when directed. I had no luck. Techs support said to knock harder. I knocked so hard my knuckle started bleeding. Tech support said: sometimes these inverters get “stuck” and you need to connect with a speedwire device to unstick them. The speedwire is no longer made but I did find one to purchase for a little over $200. I have the same inverter at home so I practiced hooking the device up to my inverter. I had some problems so I called tech support and spoke to a different person. He said I don’t need a speedwire, I just need to knock harder with the back of a screwdriver in the correct spot. I went the location with the failure and using a screwdriver tapping vigorously just to the left of the display I got the unit to reset. I am keeping the speedwire because I am paranoid I might need one in the future and not be able to procure one. If anyone wants to borrow the thing, let me know. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 136365 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Tue Mar 19 16:48:07 2024 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2024 14:48:07 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA 22 series inverters, resetting AFCI fault In-Reply-To: <04b101da7a3c$d9e99000$8dbcb000$@solarcentex.com> References: <36c5673ddb7a1dbd56a0abdf6c1a0f8e@mail.gmail.com> <04b101da7a3c$d9e99000$8dbcb000$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: > > ...Can’t believe SMA thought this was a good way to do this. > > The confused silence on the other end of the phone when you're talking to a homeowner about resetting this error message themselves as you describe bashing the inverter with your knuckles directly on the screen about as hard as you can. And then the awkward conversation that transpired waiting for the five minute start-up period to pass because they missed the ten second window to hit it and they have to try it again. - Sam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Wed Mar 20 21:34:08 2024 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2024 21:34:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Reroofing grandfathering Message-ID: Hi all, I have a potential job reinstalling an 11 year old 4.4kW roof mounted net metered array, feeding a PVI 4kW inverter. The array was pulled down by a reputable company last fall, with the intention of remounting it after the asphalt shingle roof was reroofed. From a distance, it appears that it was carefully removed and all parts and pieces were saved. Unfortunately the company's principle died in the interim and the company folded. I'm trying to determine if this scenario is grandfathered code wise, since it predates RSD. If not, I'm not sure it is worth retrofitting it with add on Tigo or APSMART equipment as opposed to replacing the whole system. In any case, before we explore the options, I'm trying to determine if putting it back up without RSD is (1) code compliant and (2) reasonable. Thanks for any insight, Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Mar 21 07:28:10 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2024 07:28:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Reroofing grandfathering In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Each state and jurisdiction could be different. Some didn't even want a permit around here after Hurricane Irna in 2017. After Hurricane Ian in 2022, virtually all did. As someone who has removed and reinstalled MANY systems to allow for hurricane damaged roof replacements, my approach has always been that the permit application was simply a structural application for the remounting of the solar panels. I indicated that the PV source conductors (or inverter output conductors in the case of microinverters) would simply be reconnected in a roof mounted junction box. This never rose to the level of requiring updating electrical wiring to current codes with respect to rapid shutdown or otherwise. We always made sure labels were legible and did any minor electrical cleanup, but I would not even provide a detailed electrical plan with our applications. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Mar 20, 2024 at 9:35 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi all, > I have a potential job reinstalling an 11 year old 4.4kW roof mounted net > metered array, feeding a PVI 4kW inverter. The array was pulled down by a > reputable company last fall, with the intention of remounting it after the > asphalt shingle roof was reroofed. From a distance, it appears that it was > carefully removed and all parts and pieces were saved. Unfortunately the > company's principle died in the interim and the company folded. I'm trying > to determine if this scenario is grandfathered code wise, since it predates > RSD. If not, I'm not sure it is worth retrofitting it with add on Tigo or > APSMART equipment as opposed to replacing the whole system. In any case, > before we explore the options, I'm trying to determine if putting it back > up without RSD is (1) code compliant and (2) reasonable. > Thanks for any insight, > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Mar 21 07:36:27 2024 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2024 07:36:27 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Reroofing grandfathering In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Howie, I would ask the AHJ and indicate you are simply reinstalling the system, not reengineering anything. I wouldn't take it for granted that the mounting hardware will be usable, or cost effective to reuse. It's often seized, cross threaded, dirty etc. There will be a lot of these coming up... Good luck On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 7:29 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Each state and jurisdiction could be different. Some didn't even want a > permit around here after Hurricane Irna in 2017. After Hurricane Ian in > 2022, virtually all did. > > As someone who has removed and reinstalled MANY systems to allow for > hurricane damaged roof replacements, my approach has always been that the > permit application was simply a structural application for the remounting > of the solar panels. I indicated that the PV source conductors (or inverter > output conductors in the case of microinverters) would simply be > reconnected in a roof mounted junction box. This never rose to the level of > requiring updating electrical wiring to current codes with respect to rapid > shutdown or otherwise. We always made sure labels were legible and did any > minor electrical cleanup, but I would not even provide a detailed > electrical plan with our applications. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Wed, Mar 20, 2024 at 9:35 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi all, >> I have a potential job reinstalling an 11 year old 4.4kW roof mounted net >> metered array, feeding a PVI 4kW inverter. The array was pulled down by a >> reputable company last fall, with the intention of remounting it after the >> asphalt shingle roof was reroofed. From a distance, it appears that it was >> carefully removed and all parts and pieces were saved. Unfortunately the >> company's principle died in the interim and the company folded. I'm trying >> to determine if this scenario is grandfathered code wise, since it predates >> RSD. If not, I'm not sure it is worth retrofitting it with add on Tigo or >> APSMART equipment as opposed to replacing the whole system. In any case, >> before we explore the options, I'm trying to determine if putting it back >> up without RSD is (1) code compliant and (2) reasonable. >> Thanks for any insight, >> Howie Michaelson >> Sun Catcher >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Mar 21 07:51:42 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2024 07:51:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Reroofing grandfathering In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mac makes a great point about reusing hardware. I would be very cautious about reusing mid-clamps and end-clamps with some brands being better or worse than others. And this may or may not apply to you, but we had many people switch from shingle or tile roofs to metal roofs. That could change the spacing of attachment points, requiring more or fewer L-feet and rail attachment hardware. Based on my experience, unless you have a very good certainty about the viability of existing equipment, you may not want to quote reinstallation until you remove the system and evaluate and catalog the parts you have. Jason On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 7:36 AM Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Howie, > > I would ask the AHJ and indicate you are simply reinstalling the system, > not reengineering anything. > > I wouldn't take it for granted that the mounting hardware will be usable, > or cost effective to reuse. It's often seized, cross threaded, dirty etc. > > There will be a lot of these coming up... > > Good luck > > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 7:29 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Each state and jurisdiction could be different. Some didn't even want a >> permit around here after Hurricane Irna in 2017. After Hurricane Ian in >> 2022, virtually all did. >> >> As someone who has removed and reinstalled MANY systems to allow for >> hurricane damaged roof replacements, my approach has always been that the >> permit application was simply a structural application for the remounting >> of the solar panels. I indicated that the PV source conductors (or inverter >> output conductors in the case of microinverters) would simply be >> reconnected in a roof mounted junction box. This never rose to the level of >> requiring updating electrical wiring to current codes with respect to rapid >> shutdown or otherwise. We always made sure labels were legible and did any >> minor electrical cleanup, but I would not even provide a detailed >> electrical plan with our applications. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 20, 2024 at 9:35 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi all, >>> I have a potential job reinstalling an 11 year old 4.4kW roof mounted >>> net metered array, feeding a PVI 4kW inverter. The array was pulled down >>> by a reputable company last fall, with the intention of remounting it after >>> the asphalt shingle roof was reroofed. From a distance, it appears that it >>> was carefully removed and all parts and pieces were saved. Unfortunately >>> the company's principle died in the interim and the company folded. I'm >>> trying to determine if this scenario is grandfathered code wise, since it >>> predates RSD. If not, I'm not sure it is worth retrofitting it with add on >>> Tigo or APSMART equipment as opposed to replacing the whole system. In any >>> case, before we explore the options, I'm trying to determine if putting it >>> back up without RSD is (1) code compliant and (2) reasonable. >>> Thanks for any insight, >>> Howie Michaelson >>> Sun Catcher >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Thu Mar 21 13:12:58 2024 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2024 12:12:58 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ballasted ground mounts Message-ID: Hi REW, Looking for recommendations (or the opposite) on ballasted ground mount options. Anyone have experiences to share? Thanks, Kris Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Thu Mar 21 13:44:01 2024 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2024 12:44:01 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ballasted ground mounts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the info, Sam. I guess that I should have mentioned that I am looking at an 8kw residential application. Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:39 PM Sam Haraldson wrote: > I have experience with the APA Solar Racking Geo Ballast system and RBI > Solar's Ballasted Landfill Solution (GM-BL). Both were simple and > effective. The APA system consists of metal cages that get built on site > and then locally sourced river rock is added via skid steer. The RBI > product uses huge, pre-cast concrete block that get formed at a > nearby facility and then are set into place with a large telehandler. > > Both of these solutions are manufacturer-engineered on a per-project basis > and as such have a minimum project size before they'll consider you. So > they're good options for 100kw and up projects but not backyard systems. > > Cheers, > Sam > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Thu Mar 21 14:04:17 2024 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2024 11:04:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ballasted ground mounts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3caf9311-0162-4cd0-815f-8ba383392091@coveoregon.com> A possibility for a smaller ballasted ground mount system is the Sunmodo Sunturf mount. It is difficult to find info on their website but you will find the Sunturf mount in the catalog and the configuration too. This mount can be installed on cast in place piers, earth screws, or concrete eco-blocks. I installed a couple of these a few years ago: one on a large engineered concrete pad and another on cast in place concrete blocks (similar to but smaller than eco-blocks). It takes a lot of anchor screws. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 3/21/2024 10:44 AM, Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches wrote: > Thanks for the info, Sam. > > I guess that I should have mentioned that I am looking at an 8kw > residential application. > > > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 137 West 1st Avenue > Luck, WI 54853 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > > > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:39 PM Sam Haraldson > wrote: > > I have experience with the APA Solar Racking Geo Ballast system > and RBI Solar's Ballasted Landfill Solution (GM-BL).  Both were > simple and effective.  The APA system consists of metal cages that > get built on site and then locally sourced river rock is added via > skid steer.  The RBI product uses huge, pre-cast concrete block > that get formed at a nearby facility and then are set into place > with a large telehandler. > > Both of these solutions are manufacturer-engineered on a > per-project basis and as such have a minimum project size before > they'll consider you. So they're good options for 100kw and up > projects but not backyard systems. > > Cheers, > Sam > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Thu Mar 21 14:06:30 2024 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2024 11:06:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ballasted ground mounts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is Aerocompact still around ? They had a nice simple ballasted ground mount Brad Bassett On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 10:45 AM Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Thanks for the info, Sam. > > I guess that I should have mentioned that I am looking at an 8kw > residential application. > > > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 137 West 1st Avenue > Luck, WI 54853 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > > > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:39 PM Sam Haraldson > wrote: > >> I have experience with the APA Solar Racking Geo Ballast system and RBI >> Solar's Ballasted Landfill Solution (GM-BL). Both were simple and >> effective. The APA system consists of metal cages that get built on site >> and then locally sourced river rock is added via skid steer. The RBI >> product uses huge, pre-cast concrete block that get formed at a >> nearby facility and then are set into place with a large telehandler. >> >> Both of these solutions are manufacturer-engineered on a per-project >> basis and as such have a minimum project size before they'll consider you. >> So they're good options for 100kw and up projects but not backyard >> systems. >> >> Cheers, >> Sam >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Mar 21 16:06:04 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2024 13:06:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ballasted ground mounts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5C8EAFD1-E064-4F37-9A07-F407CAE0BCAC@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: powerrack-0.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 20626 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Thu Mar 21 18:42:12 2024 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2024 17:42:12 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ballasted ground mounts In-Reply-To: <5C8EAFD1-E064-4F37-9A07-F407CAE0BCAC@gmail.com> References: <5C8EAFD1-E064-4F37-9A07-F407CAE0BCAC@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the info everyone. I was examining this option in the hopes that my local AHJ might consider it a non-permanent structure and, therefore, exempt from wetland setback rules. It turns out that they will not give me an exemption even with no foundation. Alas, I guess we move back 40 feet and dust off the chainsaw... Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 3:06 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Here is an interesting design. > > [image: powerrack-0.jpg] > > PowerField Energy PowerRack PV solar ballasted ground mount system > > solar-electric.com > > > > > > On Mar 21, 2024, at 11:08 AM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Is Aerocompact still around ? They had a nice simple ballasted ground > mount > > Brad Bassett > > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 10:45 AM Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Thanks for the info, Sam. >> >> I guess that I should have mentioned that I am looking at an 8kw >> residential application. >> >> >> Shine On! >> >> Kris Schmid >> Legacy Solar, LLC >> 137 West 1st Avenue >> Luck, WI 54853 >> www.legacysolar.com >> 715-653-4295 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician >> BSEE >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:39 PM Sam Haraldson >> wrote: >> >>> I have experience with the APA Solar Racking Geo Ballast system and RBI >>> Solar's Ballasted Landfill Solution (GM-BL). Both were simple and >>> effective. The APA system consists of metal cages that get built on site >>> and then locally sourced river rock is added via skid steer. The RBI >>> product uses huge, pre-cast concrete block that get formed at a >>> nearby facility and then are set into place with a large telehandler. >>> >>> Both of these solutions are manufacturer-engineered on a per-project >>> basis and as such have a minimum project size before they'll consider you. >>> So they're good options for 100kw and up projects but not backyard >>> systems. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Sam >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: powerrack-0.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 20626 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Mar 21 21:13:12 2024 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2024 01:13:12 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ballasted ground mounts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have had engineering done for 90 MPH/ 3 Sec microburst wind years ago for a similar wetland type of situation. We were using 6" concrete slabs poured in parallel to accommodate front & rear legs of the ground mount. 1 slab per front 7 rear set each. The magic # was 18#of concrete per sqft of module to safely counteract the 90 MPH/ 3 Sec microburst uplift. Please do not take my word for this; CYA & have your own engineering done but this worked well & is still in operation. Note; I tried to apply this method in a different county in a wetland situation and was denied. Dana Orzel - 2087217003 - 76dana58 at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ballasted ground mounts Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2024 17:12:58 +0000 Size: 10974 URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Fri Mar 22 08:08:46 2024 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2024 08:08:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ballasted ground mounts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007901da7c51$b1d4a7f0$157df7d0$@mindspring.com> Kris You may want to look at a company called Powerfields. Ballasted ground mount, 25 degree angle, simple to put together. Can use dirt, gravel or crush and run for ballast. Peter Giroux ASAE From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2024 1:44 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Kristopher Schmid Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ballasted ground mounts Thanks for the info, Sam. I guess that I should have mentioned that I am looking at an 8kw residential application. Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:39 PM Sam Haraldson > wrote: I have experience with the APA Solar Racking Geo Ballast system and RBI Solar's Ballasted Landfill Solution (GM-BL). Both were simple and effective. The APA system consists of metal cages that get built on site and then locally sourced river rock is added via skid steer. The RBI product uses huge, pre-cast concrete block that get formed at a nearby facility and then are set into place with a large telehandler. Both of these solutions are manufacturer-engineered on a per-project basis and as such have a minimum project size before they'll consider you. So they're good options for 100kw and up projects but not backyard systems. Cheers, Sam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Mar 26 17:26:24 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2024 17:26:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output Message-ID: I am going to have a quad-stack of Sol-Ark 15K for an off-grid 120/240V system with a 150A generator. I know the max real power is 62.5A each inverter including battery and PV. That would be 62.5A x 4 = 250A total. I intend to connect the output of the 4 inverters together with a 5-port Polaris tap, with the output of the Polaris Tap going to a 400A main lug only panelboard. My question revolves around the 200A passthrough capability for the generator, which is 150A max output and would be connected to the Grid input on each inverter. Since each inverter would need to handle the full pass-through current, that would require minimum 150A conductors on the input side of each inverter. I am under the impression that the inverters can supplement the "grid" or generator in this case if the current exceeds the available input. That means the inverter would have 150A of input plus 62.5A of inverter power for a total of 212.5A. But there is a 200A load OCPD, so I could size the load conductors from each inverter for 200A. Obviously the 4 inverters can only pass through 150A from the generator in total, which would probably be split among them, but could go through a single unit if the rest fail. Now, is it possible for each inverter to output 62.5A each PLUS 150A of generator power spread across them for a total of 400A? That is important because I would need to size the combined output conductors for 400A if that is the case. I guess I'm not clear on how Sol-Ark 15K handles grid/generator assist/supplement. It does not seem to be documented clearly. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Tue Mar 26 21:08:08 2024 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2024 21:08:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that most inverter/chargers are either being an inverter or a charger at any given time, but not both. So, once the inverter sees the AC voltage from the generator, then it will switch to being a charger and use the generator AC power to charge the batteries and run the loads. So it will never be passing through generator power and supplying power from the batteries/PV at the same time. I would think that with a call to Sol-Ark you should be able to verify this for sure, unless someone else here can verify. But also, I would size the conductors for 1.25 * available amps, since it could be continuous. So you might be able to get away with 62.5 * 4 * 1.25 = 313A rated conductors. Cheers, Dave On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 5:28 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I am going to have a quad-stack of Sol-Ark 15K for an off-grid 120/240V > system with a 150A generator. I know the max real power is 62.5A each > inverter including battery and PV. That would be 62.5A x 4 = 250A total. I > intend to connect the output of the 4 inverters together with a 5-port > Polaris tap, with the output of the Polaris Tap going to a 400A main lug > only panelboard. > > My question revolves around the 200A passthrough capability for the > generator, which is 150A max output and would be connected to the Grid > input on each inverter. Since each inverter would need to handle the full > pass-through current, that would require minimum 150A conductors on the > input side of each inverter. I am under the impression that the inverters > can supplement the "grid" or generator in this case if the current exceeds > the available input. That means the inverter would have 150A of input plus > 62.5A of inverter power for a total of 212.5A. But there is a 200A load > OCPD, so I could size the load conductors from each inverter for 200A. > > Obviously the 4 inverters can only pass through 150A from the generator in > total, which would probably be split among them, but could go through a > single unit if the rest fail. > > Now, is it possible for each inverter to output 62.5A each PLUS 150A of > generator power spread across them for a total of 400A? That is important > because I would need to size the combined output conductors for 400A if > that is the case. > > I guess I'm not clear on how Sol-Ark 15K handles grid/generator > assist/supplement. It does not seem to be documented clearly. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Mar 26 21:04:29 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2024 18:04:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8376e7e090df19a7f4a61647655298b3@mail.gmail.com> Jason: I am wondering on the advisability of hardwiring the outputs of all four inverters together. If one inverter fails the other three can backfeed into it without any means to disconnect the failed inverter and without over-current protection. Have you considered landing the output of each inverter on a separate, appropriately sized 2 pole breaker in the output load-center? In the same vein, how are you feeding generator input into the inverters? Are these hard-wired paralleled as well? You might consider having the generator feed a dedicated load-center with an appropriately sized breaker to feed each inverter. You protect the conductors as required and you can isolate any inverter for service What size should these breaker be? If your inverter can supply 62.5 AAC, upsizing for continuous duty and to the next higher standard breaker size you get 80 amps. If you use 80 amp breakers into and out of each Sol-Arc you require #4 copper at 75°C. Each inverter and all of the conductors are protected for the max current they will see and you get the combined amperage at your output. There should be no need to run 400 amp wire. BTW, you can easily contrive a bypass system by creating a sliding mechanical interlock. You run an appropriately sized feeder between the generator fed and inverter fed panels. The bypass breaker in the inverter-fed panels is interlocked with the inverter output breakers. The installation might look like this . This is way cheaper and easier than installing an additional 200A, double-throw safety switch. (A home-made interlock may not be listed but what is the worse that will happen if all breakers are on? The inverters will detect backfeed and shut down. No harm will come of it.) Hope this helps. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2024 2:26 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output I am going to have a quad-stack of Sol-Ark 15K for an off-grid 120/240V system with a 150A generator. I know the max real power is 62.5A each inverter including battery and PV. That would be 62.5A x 4 = 250A total. I intend to connect the output of the 4 inverters together with a 5-port Polaris tap, with the output of the Polaris Tap going to a 400A main lug only panelboard. My question revolves around the 200A passthrough capability for the generator, which is 150A max output and would be connected to the Grid input on each inverter. Since each inverter would need to handle the full pass-through current, that would require minimum 150A conductors on the input side of each inverter. I am under the impression that the inverters can supplement the "grid" or generator in this case if the current exceeds the available input. That means the inverter would have 150A of input plus 62.5A of inverter power for a total of 212.5A. But there is a 200A load OCPD, so I could size the load conductors from each inverter for 200A. Obviously the 4 inverters can only pass through 150A from the generator in total, which would probably be split among them, but could go through a single unit if the rest fail. Now, is it possible for each inverter to output 62.5A each PLUS 150A of generator power spread across them for a total of 400A? That is important because I would need to size the combined output conductors for 400A if that is the case. I guess I'm not clear on how Sol-Ark 15K handles grid/generator assist/supplement. It does not seem to be documented clearly. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Mar 26 21:28:02 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2024 21:28:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Dave, XW inverters do a decent job of explaining generator support mode where small generators can be supplemented by inverter power to start up large loads. I believe several other brands can do this, and I believe Sol-Ark is one of them. But front line customer service wasn't really up to speed when I contacted them recently. I can't say for certain if it is supported by Sol-Ark, but it clearly is by Schneider and has always been partnof the XW family as far as I recall. As for the continuous ampacity adjustment, I'm not sure if that is necessary. That would be more a function of the load rather than the supply. We don't upside 200A utility service conductors that way (in fact, there is an allowance for downsizing). Jason On Tue, Mar 26, 2024, 9:08 PM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that most inverter/chargers > are either being an inverter or a charger at any given time, but not both. > So, once the inverter sees the AC voltage from the generator, then it will > switch to being a charger and use the generator AC power to charge the > batteries and run the loads. So it will never be passing through generator > power and supplying power from the batteries/PV at the same time. I would > think that with a call to Sol-Ark you should be able to verify this for > sure, unless someone else here can verify. > > But also, I would size the conductors for 1.25 * available amps, since it > could be continuous. So you might be able to get away with 62.5 * 4 * 1.25 > = 313A rated conductors. > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 5:28 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I am going to have a quad-stack of Sol-Ark 15K for an off-grid 120/240V >> system with a 150A generator. I know the max real power is 62.5A each >> inverter including battery and PV. That would be 62.5A x 4 = 250A total. I >> intend to connect the output of the 4 inverters together with a 5-port >> Polaris tap, with the output of the Polaris Tap going to a 400A main lug >> only panelboard. >> >> My question revolves around the 200A passthrough capability for the >> generator, which is 150A max output and would be connected to the Grid >> input on each inverter. Since each inverter would need to handle the full >> pass-through current, that would require minimum 150A conductors on the >> input side of each inverter. I am under the impression that the inverters >> can supplement the "grid" or generator in this case if the current exceeds >> the available input. That means the inverter would have 150A of input plus >> 62.5A of inverter power for a total of 212.5A. But there is a 200A load >> OCPD, so I could size the load conductors from each inverter for 200A. >> >> Obviously the 4 inverters can only pass through 150A from the generator >> in total, which would probably be split among them, but could go through a >> single unit if the rest fail. >> >> Now, is it possible for each inverter to output 62.5A each PLUS 150A of >> generator power spread across them for a total of 400A? That is important >> because I would need to size the combined output conductors for 400A if >> that is the case. >> >> I guess I'm not clear on how Sol-Ark 15K handles grid/generator >> assist/supplement. It does not seem to be documented clearly. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 270-0370 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Mar 26 21:41:08 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2024 21:41:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output In-Reply-To: <8376e7e090df19a7f4a61647655298b3@mail.gmail.com> References: <8376e7e090df19a7f4a61647655298b3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: #4 wire as the output of each inverter is definitely not adequate, as each inverter can pass through 150A of generator power. In theory it would be spit across all four, but that doesn't matter. It's an open spigot, so at a minimum the output conductors would need to be 150A rated in my opinion. The complication arises when you don't know whether the inverter can supplement this AC output all the way to the 200A load OCPD integral to the inverter. For that reason, I believe you need to size the output conductors to 200A, not 150A in this case. I am trying to find out definitively if generator support mode is supplied by Sol-Ark s. As for paralleling the outputs, landing the outputs on breakers becomes problematic and very expensive. Since the outputs need to be 150A minimum or 200A maximum (as discussed previously), how would you do a 400A panelboard with four of these large breakers in it, keeping in mind that all four need to be fastened as backfed main breakers? I don't see a practical way to make that happen. The same thing applies to combining the generator inputs. You would need 4 x 150A backfed breakers, all fastened to the bus. Is there a cost effective way to accomplish this? Serviceability and bypass are obvious desires, but at what cost? If an inverter needs to be taken out of service, it's fairly easy to remove the supply and load conductors. And this highlights my issue... What if three of four inverters need to be removed from service? Then absolute 150A generator power can flow through the remaining single inverter, meaning the output conductors need to be sized accordingly. Jason On Tue, Mar 26, 2024, 9:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jason: > > > > I am wondering on the advisability of hardwiring the outputs of all four > inverters together. If one inverter fails the other three can backfeed > into it without any means to disconnect the failed inverter and without > over-current protection. Have you considered landing the output of each > inverter on a separate, appropriately sized 2 pole breaker in the output > load-center? > > > > In the same vein, how are you feeding generator input into the inverters? > Are these hard-wired paralleled as well? You might consider having the > generator feed a dedicated load-center with an appropriately sized breaker > to feed each inverter. You protect the conductors as required and you can > isolate any inverter for service > > > > What size should these breaker be? If your inverter can supply 62.5 AAC, > upsizing for continuous duty and to the next higher standard breaker size > you get 80 amps. If you use 80 amp breakers into and out of each Sol-Arc > you require #4 copper at 75°C. Each inverter and all of the conductors are > protected for the max current they will see and you get the combined > amperage at your output. There should be no need to run 400 amp wire. > > > > BTW, you can easily contrive a bypass system by creating a sliding > mechanical interlock. You run an appropriately sized feeder between the > generator fed and inverter fed panels. The bypass breaker in the > inverter-fed panels is interlocked with the inverter output breakers. The > installation might look like this > . > This is way cheaper and easier than installing an additional 200A, > double-throw safety switch. (A home-made interlock may not be listed but > what is the worse that will happen if all breakers are on? The inverters > will detect backfeed and shut down. No harm will come of it.) > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2024 2:26 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output > > > > I am going to have a quad-stack of Sol-Ark 15K for an off-grid 120/240V > system with a 150A generator. I know the max real power is 62.5A each > inverter including battery and PV. That would be 62.5A x 4 = 250A total. I > intend to connect the output of the 4 inverters together with a 5-port > Polaris tap, with the output of the Polaris Tap going to a 400A main lug > only panelboard. > > > > My question revolves around the 200A passthrough capability for the > generator, which is 150A max output and would be connected to the Grid > input on each inverter. Since each inverter would need to handle the full > pass-through current, that would require minimum 150A conductors on the > input side of each inverter. I am under the impression that the inverters > can supplement the "grid" or generator in this case if the current exceeds > the available input. That means the inverter would have 150A of input plus > 62.5A of inverter power for a total of 212.5A. But there is a 200A load > OCPD, so I could size the load conductors from each inverter for 200A. > > > > Obviously the 4 inverters can only pass through 150A from the generator in > total, which would probably be split among them, but could go through a > single unit if the rest fail. > > > > Now, is it possible for each inverter to output 62.5A each PLUS 150A of > generator power spread across them for a total of 400A? That is important > because I would need to size the combined output conductors for 400A if > that is the case. > > > > I guess I'm not clear on how Sol-Ark 15K handles grid/generator > assist/supplement. It does not seem to be documented clearly. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Mar 26 23:21:00 2024 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2024 20:21:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches, Jason I have always either with outback and with solark have always connected each unit with a distribution panel with breakers regardless of what's in the inverter package. This same goes for the gen set connections with proper breakers so not to have to over size the wires. I have connected to either the gen set input or the grid input both will work and both can be used to charge the batteries. Question l do alot of gen set integration and breakers on the genset may not reflect its actual design output and l have seen multiple times overloading the genset due to the incorrect math. Use a power factor of .8 of the gen set rating then 75% of that is safe continues operating load. Now some may argue with this but when l take a 150 kW genny for a 4 hr load bank test that's the math that's used. Your batteries should also be independently fuse or breaker protected outside of the battery such as a midnite battery combiner breaker cabinet, required for any more than two banks. I do this with FLA's blue planet and fortress regardless of the internal breaker supplied. Fun times On Tue, Mar 26, 2024, 2:27 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I am going to have a quad-stack of Sol-Ark 15K for an off-grid 120/240V > system with a 150A generator. I know the max real power is 62.5A each > inverter including battery and PV. That would be 62.5A x 4 = 250A total. I > intend to connect the output of the 4 inverters together with a 5-port > Polaris tap, with the output of the Polaris Tap going to a 400A main lug > only panelboard. > > My question revolves around the 200A passthrough capability for the > generator, which is 150A max output and would be connected to the Grid > input on each inverter. Since each inverter would need to handle the full > pass-through current, that would require minimum 150A conductors on the > input side of each inverter. I am under the impression that the inverters > can supplement the "grid" or generator in this case if the current exceeds > the available input. That means the inverter would have 150A of input plus > 62.5A of inverter power for a total of 212.5A. But there is a 200A load > OCPD, so I could size the load conductors from each inverter for 200A. > > Obviously the 4 inverters can only pass through 150A from the generator in > total, which would probably be split among them, but could go through a > single unit if the rest fail. > > Now, is it possible for each inverter to output 62.5A each PLUS 150A of > generator power spread across them for a total of 400A? That is important > because I would need to size the combined output conductors for 400A if > that is the case. > > I guess I'm not clear on how Sol-Ark 15K handles grid/generator > assist/supplement. It does not seem to be documented clearly. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Mar 27 00:29:50 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2024 21:29:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output In-Reply-To: References: <8376e7e090df19a7f4a61647655298b3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Jason: Sol-Arc does provide generator support. They call it “grid peak load shaving” and it is described on page 22 of the manual. Below is an excerpt. For those that may not be familiar with the concept of generator support, here is how I describe it: The inverter(s) are programmed for the generator capacity. If the generator is powering loads and the demand exceeds that programmed generator capacity, the inverter can start inverting and synchronize output to the generator to add power. This is only possible if battery charge levels are adequate. In the Sol-Arc this function can be adjusted or turned off. Regarding my recommendations on wire sizing: I may have done a poor job describing how I see your project best approached. Below is a diagram that may do a better job. Power flow is from left to right: If you follow what I am laying down, you can see there is no single inverter or inverter wire that can pass or create more than 80 amps. Ergo #4 copper. The money and time you save can easily purchase 8 80 amp breakers. If you look at Diagram 10 in the April 5, 2022 Sol-Arc manual you will see this concept shown, albeit without bypass capabilities and with a separate “LOAD AC Combiner panel.” The separate panel is redundant,-- all of the breakers in the AC combiner panel could be located in the “Main Breaker Panel.” Contemplate this: Just because an inverter can pass-through 200 amps, does not mean it can pass through amps above what the input breaker provides. I hope I have been more clear. I also hope you don’t spend a lot of money on and wrassle wire larger than is needed. Call me if I can help in any way. William PS: Below is a diagram on how to provide bypass. I tried to depict the bypass interlock graphically. The point is you cannot turn *on* the bypass breaker without turning *off* the inverter output breakers. See photos of the actual hardware on the web page linked below. I find bypass very handy because if there is an inverter or battery failure the client can restore power immediately and I can respond at a more convenient time. Wm Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com] *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2024 6:41 PM *To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output #4 wire as the output of each inverter is definitely not adequate, as each inverter can pass through 150A of generator power. In theory it would be spit across all four, but that doesn't matter. It's an open spigot, so at a minimum the output conductors would need to be 150A rated in my opinion. The complication arises when you don't know whether the inverter can supplement this AC output all the way to the 200A load OCPD integral to the inverter. For that reason, I believe you need to size the output conductors to 200A, not 150A in this case. I am trying to find out definitively if generator support mode is supplied by Sol-Ark s. As for paralleling the outputs, landing the outputs on breakers becomes problematic and very expensive. Since the outputs need to be 150A minimum or 200A maximum (as discussed previously), how would you do a 400A panelboard with four of these large breakers in it, keeping in mind that all four need to be fastened as backfed main breakers? I don't see a practical way to make that happen. The same thing applies to combining the generator inputs. You would need 4 x 150A backfed breakers, all fastened to the bus. Is there a cost effective way to accomplish this? Serviceability and bypass are obvious desires, but at what cost? If an inverter needs to be taken out of service, it's fairly easy to remove the supply and load conductors. And this highlights my issue... What if three of four inverters need to be removed from service? Then absolute 150A generator power can flow through the remaining single inverter, meaning the output conductors need to be sized accordingly. Jason On Tue, Mar 26, 2024, 9:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Jason: I am wondering on the advisability of hardwiring the outputs of all four inverters together. If one inverter fails the other three can backfeed into it without any means to disconnect the failed inverter and without over-current protection. Have you considered landing the output of each inverter on a separate, appropriately sized 2 pole breaker in the output load-center? In the same vein, how are you feeding generator input into the inverters? Are these hard-wired paralleled as well? You might consider having the generator feed a dedicated load-center with an appropriately sized breaker to feed each inverter. You protect the conductors as required and you can isolate any inverter for service What size should these breaker be? If your inverter can supply 62.5 AAC, upsizing for continuous duty and to the next higher standard breaker size you get 80 amps. If you use 80 amp breakers into and out of each Sol-Arc you require #4 copper at 75°C. Each inverter and all of the conductors are protected for the max current they will see and you get the combined amperage at your output. There should be no need to run 400 amp wire. BTW, you can easily contrive a bypass system by creating a sliding mechanical interlock. You run an appropriately sized feeder between the generator fed and inverter fed panels. The bypass breaker in the inverter-fed panels is interlocked with the inverter output breakers. The installation might look like this . This is way cheaper and easier than installing an additional 200A, double-throw safety switch. (A home-made interlock may not be listed but what is the worse that will happen if all breakers are on? The inverters will detect backfeed and shut down. No harm will come of it.) Hope this helps. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2024 2:26 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output I am going to have a quad-stack of Sol-Ark 15K for an off-grid 120/240V system with a 150A generator. I know the max real power is 62.5A each inverter including battery and PV. That would be 62.5A x 4 = 250A total. I intend to connect the output of the 4 inverters together with a 5-port Polaris tap, with the output of the Polaris Tap going to a 400A main lug only panelboard. My question revolves around the 200A passthrough capability for the generator, which is 150A max output and would be connected to the Grid input on each inverter. Since each inverter would need to handle the full pass-through current, that would require minimum 150A conductors on the input side of each inverter. I am under the impression that the inverters can supplement the "grid" or generator in this case if the current exceeds the available input. That means the inverter would have 150A of input plus 62.5A of inverter power for a total of 212.5A. But there is a 200A load OCPD, so I could size the load conductors from each inverter for 200A. Obviously the 4 inverters can only pass through 150A from the generator in total, which would probably be split among them, but could go through a single unit if the rest fail. Now, is it possible for each inverter to output 62.5A each PLUS 150A of generator power spread across them for a total of 400A? That is important because I would need to size the combined output conductors for 400A if that is the case. I guess I'm not clear on how Sol-Ark 15K handles grid/generator assist/supplement. It does not seem to be documented clearly. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 220896 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 66922 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 36677 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Mar 27 06:12:15 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2024 06:12:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output In-Reply-To: References: <8376e7e090df19a7f4a61647655298b3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: William, Thanks for the information on grid peak shaving. That is what I thought could be done. The description is a misnomer of sorts (like a lot of things in Sol-Ark lingo). It's a bit hard to follow and not nearly well enough documented, particularly with respect to parallel systems. I follow what you are saying about using the 80A input breakers. The problem I have is that you must set the generator kW to 36,000 in the master inverter, not 9,000W in each inverter. The concept of "underrating" the input breakers theorizes that each inverter will share the generator pass-through equally. I do not know that to be the case. And what happens if the three slave inverters have a fault or are turned off? That would allow the single master to pass through the full generator supply. Obviously this trips the 80A input breaker and protects the conductors, but I feel that is a design deficiency when a single inverter is fully capable of passing through all 150A. On top of that, I don't think the 80A output breakers are sufficient because each inverter can peak shave 50A with inverter power from the batteries. Add that to the theorized balanced 37.5A "grid" input, and you are at 87.5A of possible throughput. But assuming the 80A input/output concept works, other than a panelboard with bolt on breakers, what low-cost load center allows you to fasten four 80A backfed breakers? If this is available, I could use a recommendation. The load centers I am familiar with only have provisions for one fastened backfed breaker. With respect to the bypass, I would usually use a DPDT switch to accomplish this, Even for 400A bypasses, there seems to be a relatively cost effective option in the Ronk 7416 (which to date I have not used). I get the concept for smaller (<=100A) generators that you could use a generator interlock on an off-the-shelf load center. But they typically only allow a single backfed 2-pole breaker, whereas something like a Square D QO panel with a backfed 150A breaker requires 4 spaces and is incompatible with the interlock device. Always, this is a great discussion and specific recommended equipment is appreciated. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 12:33 AM William Miller wrote: > Jason: > > > > Sol-Arc does provide generator support. They call it “grid peak load > shaving” and it is described on page 22 of the manual. Below is an excerpt. > > > > > > For those that may not be familiar with the concept of generator support, > here is how I describe it: The inverter(s) are programmed for the > generator capacity. If the generator is powering loads and the demand > exceeds that programmed generator capacity, the inverter can start > inverting and synchronize output to the generator to add power. This is > only possible if battery charge levels are adequate. In the Sol-Arc this > function can be adjusted or turned off. > > > > Regarding my recommendations on wire sizing: I may have done a poor job > describing how I see your project best approached. Below is a diagram that > may do a better job. Power flow is from left to right: > > > > > > If you follow what I am laying down, you can see there is no single > inverter or inverter wire that can pass or create more than 80 amps. Ergo > #4 copper. The money and time you save can easily purchase 8 80 amp > breakers. If you look at Diagram 10 in the April 5, 2022 Sol-Arc manual > you will see this concept shown, albeit without bypass capabilities and > with a separate “LOAD AC Combiner panel.” The separate panel is > redundant,-- all of the breakers in the AC combiner panel could be located > in the “Main Breaker Panel.” > > > > Contemplate this: Just because an inverter can pass-through 200 amps, > does not mean it can pass through amps above what the input breaker > provides. > > > > I hope I have been more clear. I also hope you don’t spend a lot of money > on and wrassle wire larger than is needed. > > > > Call me if I can help in any way. > > > > William > > > > PS: Below is a diagram on how to provide bypass. I tried to depict the > bypass interlock graphically. The point is you cannot turn *on* the > bypass breaker without turning *off* the inverter output breakers. See > photos of the actual hardware on the web page linked below. I find bypass > very handy because if there is an inverter or battery failure the client > can restore power immediately and I can respond at a more convenient time. > > > > > > > > > > Wm > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com] > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2024 6:41 PM > *To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output > > > > #4 wire as the output of each inverter is definitely not adequate, as each > inverter can pass through 150A of generator power. In theory it would be > spit across all four, but that doesn't matter. It's an open spigot, so at a > minimum the output conductors would need to be 150A rated in my opinion. > The complication arises when you don't know whether the inverter can > supplement this AC output all the way to the 200A load OCPD integral to the > inverter. For that reason, I believe you need to size the output conductors > to 200A, not 150A in this case. I am trying to find out definitively if > generator support mode is supplied by Sol-Ark s. > > > > As for paralleling the outputs, landing the outputs on breakers becomes > problematic and very expensive. Since the outputs need to be 150A minimum > or 200A maximum (as discussed previously), how would you do a 400A > panelboard with four of these large breakers in it, keeping in mind that > all four need to be fastened as backfed main breakers? I don't see a > practical way to make that happen. > > > > The same thing applies to combining the generator inputs. You would need 4 > x 150A backfed breakers, all fastened to the bus. Is there a cost effective > way to accomplish this? > > > > Serviceability and bypass are obvious desires, but at what cost? If an > inverter needs to be taken out of service, it's fairly easy to remove the > supply and load conductors. And this highlights my issue... What if three > of four inverters need to be removed from service? Then absolute 150A > generator power can flow through the remaining single inverter, meaning the > output conductors need to be sized accordingly. > > > > Jason > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 26, 2024, 9:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Jason: > > > > I am wondering on the advisability of hardwiring the outputs of all four > inverters together. If one inverter fails the other three can backfeed > into it without any means to disconnect the failed inverter and without > over-current protection. Have you considered landing the output of each > inverter on a separate, appropriately sized 2 pole breaker in the output > load-center? > > > > In the same vein, how are you feeding generator input into the inverters? > Are these hard-wired paralleled as well? You might consider having the > generator feed a dedicated load-center with an appropriately sized breaker > to feed each inverter. You protect the conductors as required and you can > isolate any inverter for service > > > > What size should these breaker be? If your inverter can supply 62.5 AAC, > upsizing for continuous duty and to the next higher standard breaker size > you get 80 amps. If you use 80 amp breakers into and out of each Sol-Arc > you require #4 copper at 75°C. Each inverter and all of the conductors are > protected for the max current they will see and you get the combined > amperage at your output. There should be no need to run 400 amp wire. > > > > BTW, you can easily contrive a bypass system by creating a sliding > mechanical interlock. You run an appropriately sized feeder between the > generator fed and inverter fed panels. The bypass breaker in the > inverter-fed panels is interlocked with the inverter output breakers. The > installation might look like this > . > This is way cheaper and easier than installing an additional 200A, > double-throw safety switch. (A home-made interlock may not be listed but > what is the worse that will happen if all breakers are on? The inverters > will detect backfeed and shut down. No harm will come of it.) > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2024 2:26 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output > > > > I am going to have a quad-stack of Sol-Ark 15K for an off-grid 120/240V > system with a 150A generator. I know the max real power is 62.5A each > inverter including battery and PV. That would be 62.5A x 4 = 250A total. I > intend to connect the output of the 4 inverters together with a 5-port > Polaris tap, with the output of the Polaris Tap going to a 400A main lug > only panelboard. > > > > My question revolves around the 200A passthrough capability for the > generator, which is 150A max output and would be connected to the Grid > input on each inverter. Since each inverter would need to handle the full > pass-through current, that would require minimum 150A conductors on the > input side of each inverter. I am under the impression that the inverters > can supplement the "grid" or generator in this case if the current exceeds > the available input. That means the inverter would have 150A of input plus > 62.5A of inverter power for a total of 212.5A. But there is a 200A load > OCPD, so I could size the load conductors from each inverter for 200A. > > > > Obviously the 4 inverters can only pass through 150A from the generator in > total, which would probably be split among them, but could go through a > single unit if the rest fail. > > > > Now, is it possible for each inverter to output 62.5A each PLUS 150A of > generator power spread across them for a total of 400A? That is important > because I would need to size the combined output conductors for 400A if > that is the case. > > > > I guess I'm not clear on how Sol-Ark 15K handles grid/generator > assist/supplement. It does not seem to be documented clearly. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 220896 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 66922 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 36677 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Wed Mar 27 08:01:55 2024 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2024 05:01:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output In-Reply-To: References: <8376e7e090df19a7f4a61647655298b3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Sol-Ark's applications engineers are your friends : ) On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 3:13 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > William, > > Thanks for the information on grid peak shaving. That is what I thought > could be done. The description is a misnomer of sorts (like a lot of things > in Sol-Ark lingo). It's a bit hard to follow and not nearly well > enough documented, particularly with respect to parallel systems. > > I follow what you are saying about using the 80A input breakers. The > problem I have is that you must set the generator kW to 36,000 in the > master inverter, not 9,000W in each inverter. The concept of "underrating" > the input breakers theorizes that each inverter will share the generator > pass-through equally. I do not know that to be the case. And what happens > if the three slave inverters have a fault or are turned off? That would > allow the single master to pass through the full generator supply. > Obviously this trips the 80A input breaker and protects the conductors, but > I feel that is a design deficiency when a single inverter is fully capable > of passing through all 150A. > > On top of that, I don't think the 80A output breakers are sufficient > because each inverter can peak shave 50A with inverter power from the > batteries. Add that to the theorized balanced 37.5A "grid" input, and you > are at 87.5A of possible throughput. > > But assuming the 80A input/output concept works, other than a panelboard > with bolt on breakers, what low-cost load center allows you to fasten four > 80A backfed breakers? If this is available, I could use a recommendation. > The load centers I am familiar with only have provisions for one fastened > backfed breaker. > > With respect to the bypass, I would usually use a DPDT switch to > accomplish this, Even for 400A bypasses, there seems to be a relatively > cost effective option in the Ronk 7416 (which to date I have not used). I > get the concept for smaller (<=100A) generators that you could use a > generator interlock on an off-the-shelf load center. But they typically > only allow a single backfed 2-pole breaker, whereas something like a Square > D QO panel with a backfed 150A breaker requires 4 spaces and is > incompatible with the interlock device. > > Always, this is a great discussion and specific recommended equipment is > appreciated. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 12:33 AM William Miller > wrote: > >> Jason: >> >> >> >> Sol-Arc does provide generator support. They call it “grid peak load >> shaving” and it is described on page 22 of the manual. Below is an excerpt. >> >> >> >> >> >> For those that may not be familiar with the concept of generator support, >> here is how I describe it: The inverter(s) are programmed for the >> generator capacity. If the generator is powering loads and the demand >> exceeds that programmed generator capacity, the inverter can start >> inverting and synchronize output to the generator to add power. This is >> only possible if battery charge levels are adequate. In the Sol-Arc this >> function can be adjusted or turned off. >> >> >> >> Regarding my recommendations on wire sizing: I may have done a poor job >> describing how I see your project best approached. Below is a diagram that >> may do a better job. Power flow is from left to right: >> >> >> >> >> >> If you follow what I am laying down, you can see there is no single >> inverter or inverter wire that can pass or create more than 80 amps. Ergo >> #4 copper. The money and time you save can easily purchase 8 80 amp >> breakers. If you look at Diagram 10 in the April 5, 2022 Sol-Arc manual >> you will see this concept shown, albeit without bypass capabilities and >> with a separate “LOAD AC Combiner panel.” The separate panel is >> redundant,-- all of the breakers in the AC combiner panel could be located >> in the “Main Breaker Panel.” >> >> >> >> Contemplate this: Just because an inverter can pass-through 200 amps, >> does not mean it can pass through amps above what the input breaker >> provides. >> >> >> >> I hope I have been more clear. I also hope you don’t spend a lot of >> money on and wrassle wire larger than is needed. >> >> >> >> Call me if I can help in any way. >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> PS: Below is a diagram on how to provide bypass. I tried to depict the >> bypass interlock graphically. The point is you cannot turn *on* the >> bypass breaker without turning *off* the inverter output breakers. See >> photos of the actual hardware on the web page linked below. I find bypass >> very handy because if there is an inverter or battery failure the client >> can restore power immediately and I can respond at a more convenient time. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Wm >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com] >> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2024 6:41 PM >> *To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output >> >> >> >> #4 wire as the output of each inverter is definitely not adequate, as >> each inverter can pass through 150A of generator power. In theory it would >> be spit across all four, but that doesn't matter. It's an open spigot, so >> at a minimum the output conductors would need to be 150A rated in my >> opinion. The complication arises when you don't know whether the inverter >> can supplement this AC output all the way to the 200A load OCPD integral to >> the inverter. For that reason, I believe you need to size the output >> conductors to 200A, not 150A in this case. I am trying to find out >> definitively if generator support mode is supplied by Sol-Ark s. >> >> >> >> As for paralleling the outputs, landing the outputs on breakers becomes >> problematic and very expensive. Since the outputs need to be 150A minimum >> or 200A maximum (as discussed previously), how would you do a 400A >> panelboard with four of these large breakers in it, keeping in mind that >> all four need to be fastened as backfed main breakers? I don't see a >> practical way to make that happen. >> >> >> >> The same thing applies to combining the generator inputs. You would need >> 4 x 150A backfed breakers, all fastened to the bus. Is there a cost >> effective way to accomplish this? >> >> >> >> Serviceability and bypass are obvious desires, but at what cost? If an >> inverter needs to be taken out of service, it's fairly easy to remove the >> supply and load conductors. And this highlights my issue... What if three >> of four inverters need to be removed from service? Then absolute 150A >> generator power can flow through the remaining single inverter, meaning the >> output conductors need to be sized accordingly. >> >> >> >> Jason >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Mar 26, 2024, 9:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Jason: >> >> >> >> I am wondering on the advisability of hardwiring the outputs of all four >> inverters together. If one inverter fails the other three can backfeed >> into it without any means to disconnect the failed inverter and without >> over-current protection. Have you considered landing the output of each >> inverter on a separate, appropriately sized 2 pole breaker in the output >> load-center? >> >> >> >> In the same vein, how are you feeding generator input into the >> inverters? Are these hard-wired paralleled as well? You might consider >> having the generator feed a dedicated load-center with an appropriately >> sized breaker to feed each inverter. You protect the conductors as >> required and you can isolate any inverter for service >> >> >> >> What size should these breaker be? If your inverter can supply 62.5 AAC, >> upsizing for continuous duty and to the next higher standard breaker size >> you get 80 amps. If you use 80 amp breakers into and out of each Sol-Arc >> you require #4 copper at 75°C. Each inverter and all of the conductors are >> protected for the max current they will see and you get the combined >> amperage at your output. There should be no need to run 400 amp wire. >> >> >> >> BTW, you can easily contrive a bypass system by creating a sliding >> mechanical interlock. You run an appropriately sized feeder between the >> generator fed and inverter fed panels. The bypass breaker in the >> inverter-fed panels is interlocked with the inverter output breakers. The >> installation might look like this >> . >> This is way cheaper and easier than installing an additional 200A, >> double-throw safety switch. (A home-made interlock may not be listed but >> what is the worse that will happen if all breakers are on? The inverters >> will detect backfeed and shut down. No harm will come of it.) >> >> >> >> Hope this helps. >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2024 2:26 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output >> >> >> >> I am going to have a quad-stack of Sol-Ark 15K for an off-grid 120/240V >> system with a 150A generator. I know the max real power is 62.5A each >> inverter including battery and PV. That would be 62.5A x 4 = 250A total. I >> intend to connect the output of the 4 inverters together with a 5-port >> Polaris tap, with the output of the Polaris Tap going to a 400A main lug >> only panelboard. >> >> >> >> My question revolves around the 200A passthrough capability for the >> generator, which is 150A max output and would be connected to the Grid >> input on each inverter. Since each inverter would need to handle the full >> pass-through current, that would require minimum 150A conductors on the >> input side of each inverter. I am under the impression that the inverters >> can supplement the "grid" or generator in this case if the current exceeds >> the available input. That means the inverter would have 150A of input plus >> 62.5A of inverter power for a total of 212.5A. But there is a 200A load >> OCPD, so I could size the load conductors from each inverter for 200A. >> >> >> >> Obviously the 4 inverters can only pass through 150A from the generator >> in total, which would probably be split among them, but could go through a >> single unit if the rest fail. >> >> >> >> Now, is it possible for each inverter to output 62.5A each PLUS 150A of >> generator power spread across them for a total of 400A? That is important >> because I would need to size the combined output conductors for 400A if >> that is the case. >> >> >> >> I guess I'm not clear on how Sol-Ark 15K handles grid/generator >> assist/supplement. It does not seem to be documented clearly. >> >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Wed Mar 27 08:04:14 2024 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2024 08:04:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output In-Reply-To: References: <8376e7e090df19a7f4a61647655298b3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jason, I talked through this scenario with Sol-Ark tech support a while back. The take away was that grid peak shaving does exist but ONLY on the grid port. If this is an off-grid installation, then land the conductors from the generator on the grid port and select “gen connected to grid port” option. But in a grid-tied scenario, where the generator is connected to the Gen port, do not expect a smaller generator to get peak shaving support from the inverter, and expect it to overload if an overload is present. Sol-Ark suggested that you could use a ATS to allow the generator and grid conductores to be shared on the single grid port…but that just seems like a clunky idea. On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 6:13 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > William, > > Thanks for the information on grid peak shaving. That is what I thought > could be done. The description is a misnomer of sorts (like a lot of things > in Sol-Ark lingo). It's a bit hard to follow and not nearly well > enough documented, particularly with respect to parallel systems. > > I follow what you are saying about using the 80A input breakers. The > problem I have is that you must set the generator kW to 36,000 in the > master inverter, not 9,000W in each inverter. The concept of "underrating" > the input breakers theorizes that each inverter will share the generator > pass-through equally. I do not know that to be the case. And what happens > if the three slave inverters have a fault or are turned off? That would > allow the single master to pass through the full generator supply. > Obviously this trips the 80A input breaker and protects the conductors, but > I feel that is a design deficiency when a single inverter is fully capable > of passing through all 150A. > > On top of that, I don't think the 80A output breakers are sufficient > because each inverter can peak shave 50A with inverter power from the > batteries. Add that to the theorized balanced 37.5A "grid" input, and you > are at 87.5A of possible throughput. > > But assuming the 80A input/output concept works, other than a panelboard > with bolt on breakers, what low-cost load center allows you to fasten four > 80A backfed breakers? If this is available, I could use a recommendation. > The load centers I am familiar with only have provisions for one fastened > backfed breaker. > > With respect to the bypass, I would usually use a DPDT switch to > accomplish this, Even for 400A bypasses, there seems to be a relatively > cost effective option in the Ronk 7416 (which to date I have not used). I > get the concept for smaller (<=100A) generators that you could use a > generator interlock on an off-the-shelf load center. But they typically > only allow a single backfed 2-pole breaker, whereas something like a Square > D QO panel with a backfed 150A breaker requires 4 spaces and is > incompatible with the interlock device. > > Always, this is a great discussion and specific recommended equipment is > appreciated. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 12:33 AM William Miller > wrote: > >> Jason: >> >> >> >> Sol-Arc does provide generator support. They call it “grid peak load >> shaving” and it is described on page 22 of the manual. Below is an excerpt. >> >> >> >> >> >> For those that may not be familiar with the concept of generator support, >> here is how I describe it: The inverter(s) are programmed for the >> generator capacity. If the generator is powering loads and the demand >> exceeds that programmed generator capacity, the inverter can start >> inverting and synchronize output to the generator to add power. This is >> only possible if battery charge levels are adequate. In the Sol-Arc this >> function can be adjusted or turned off. >> >> >> >> Regarding my recommendations on wire sizing: I may have done a poor job >> describing how I see your project best approached. Below is a diagram that >> may do a better job. Power flow is from left to right: >> >> >> >> >> >> If you follow what I am laying down, you can see there is no single >> inverter or inverter wire that can pass or create more than 80 amps. Ergo >> #4 copper. The money and time you save can easily purchase 8 80 amp >> breakers. If you look at Diagram 10 in the April 5, 2022 Sol-Arc manual >> you will see this concept shown, albeit without bypass capabilities and >> with a separate “LOAD AC Combiner panel.” The separate panel is >> redundant,-- all of the breakers in the AC combiner panel could be located >> in the “Main Breaker Panel.” >> >> >> >> Contemplate this: Just because an inverter can pass-through 200 amps, >> does not mean it can pass through amps above what the input breaker >> provides. >> >> >> >> I hope I have been more clear. I also hope you don’t spend a lot of >> money on and wrassle wire larger than is needed. >> >> >> >> Call me if I can help in any way. >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> PS: Below is a diagram on how to provide bypass. I tried to depict the >> bypass interlock graphically. The point is you cannot turn *on* the >> bypass breaker without turning *off* the inverter output breakers. See >> photos of the actual hardware on the web page linked below. I find bypass >> very handy because if there is an inverter or battery failure the client >> can restore power immediately and I can respond at a more convenient time. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Wm >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com] >> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2024 6:41 PM >> *To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output >> >> >> >> #4 wire as the output of each inverter is definitely not adequate, as >> each inverter can pass through 150A of generator power. In theory it would >> be spit across all four, but that doesn't matter. It's an open spigot, so >> at a minimum the output conductors would need to be 150A rated in my >> opinion. The complication arises when you don't know whether the inverter >> can supplement this AC output all the way to the 200A load OCPD integral to >> the inverter. For that reason, I believe you need to size the output >> conductors to 200A, not 150A in this case. I am trying to find out >> definitively if generator support mode is supplied by Sol-Ark s. >> >> >> >> As for paralleling the outputs, landing the outputs on breakers becomes >> problematic and very expensive. Since the outputs need to be 150A minimum >> or 200A maximum (as discussed previously), how would you do a 400A >> panelboard with four of these large breakers in it, keeping in mind that >> all four need to be fastened as backfed main breakers? I don't see a >> practical way to make that happen. >> >> >> >> The same thing applies to combining the generator inputs. You would need >> 4 x 150A backfed breakers, all fastened to the bus. Is there a cost >> effective way to accomplish this? >> >> >> >> Serviceability and bypass are obvious desires, but at what cost? If an >> inverter needs to be taken out of service, it's fairly easy to remove the >> supply and load conductors. And this highlights my issue... What if three >> of four inverters need to be removed from service? Then absolute 150A >> generator power can flow through the remaining single inverter, meaning the >> output conductors need to be sized accordingly. >> >> >> >> Jason >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Mar 26, 2024, 9:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Jason: >> >> >> >> I am wondering on the advisability of hardwiring the outputs of all four >> inverters together. If one inverter fails the other three can backfeed >> into it without any means to disconnect the failed inverter and without >> over-current protection. Have you considered landing the output of each >> inverter on a separate, appropriately sized 2 pole breaker in the output >> load-center? >> >> >> >> In the same vein, how are you feeding generator input into the >> inverters? Are these hard-wired paralleled as well? You might consider >> having the generator feed a dedicated load-center with an appropriately >> sized breaker to feed each inverter. You protect the conductors as >> required and you can isolate any inverter for service >> >> >> >> What size should these breaker be? If your inverter can supply 62.5 AAC, >> upsizing for continuous duty and to the next higher standard breaker size >> you get 80 amps. If you use 80 amp breakers into and out of each Sol-Arc >> you require #4 copper at 75°C. Each inverter and all of the conductors are >> protected for the max current they will see and you get the combined >> amperage at your output. There should be no need to run 400 amp wire. >> >> >> >> BTW, you can easily contrive a bypass system by creating a sliding >> mechanical interlock. You run an appropriately sized feeder between the >> generator fed and inverter fed panels. The bypass breaker in the >> inverter-fed panels is interlocked with the inverter output breakers. The >> installation might look like this >> . >> This is way cheaper and easier than installing an additional 200A, >> double-throw safety switch. (A home-made interlock may not be listed but >> what is the worse that will happen if all breakers are on? The inverters >> will detect backfeed and shut down. No harm will come of it.) >> >> >> >> Hope this helps. >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2024 2:26 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output >> >> >> >> I am going to have a quad-stack of Sol-Ark 15K for an off-grid 120/240V >> system with a 150A generator. I know the max real power is 62.5A each >> inverter including battery and PV. That would be 62.5A x 4 = 250A total. I >> intend to connect the output of the 4 inverters together with a 5-port >> Polaris tap, with the output of the Polaris Tap going to a 400A main lug >> only panelboard. >> >> >> >> My question revolves around the 200A passthrough capability for the >> generator, which is 150A max output and would be connected to the Grid >> input on each inverter. Since each inverter would need to handle the full >> pass-through current, that would require minimum 150A conductors on the >> input side of each inverter. I am under the impression that the inverters >> can supplement the "grid" or generator in this case if the current exceeds >> the available input. That means the inverter would have 150A of input plus >> 62.5A of inverter power for a total of 212.5A. But there is a 200A load >> OCPD, so I could size the load conductors from each inverter for 200A. >> >> >> >> Obviously the 4 inverters can only pass through 150A from the generator >> in total, which would probably be split among them, but could go through a >> single unit if the rest fail. >> >> >> >> Now, is it possible for each inverter to output 62.5A each PLUS 150A of >> generator power spread across them for a total of 400A? That is important >> because I would need to size the combined output conductors for 400A if >> that is the case. >> >> >> >> I guess I'm not clear on how Sol-Ark 15K handles grid/generator >> assist/supplement. It does not seem to be documented clearly. >> >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Mar 27 14:43:27 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2024 18:43:27 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output In-Reply-To: References: <8376e7e090df19a7f4a61647655298b3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <13c44d9e-2810-dbf8-52e4-3d226cc29c60@floridasolardesigngroup.com> They are certainly friendly, but I didn't get a straight and definitive answer when I called about this. It should really be documented. There is no documentation about how paralleled units share/balance inputs and pass current through. Regardless, I still think it is best practice to size the load conductors for the sum of the full generator/grid input (on the grid input lugs) plus 62.5A, or 200A, whichever is less, even in a parallel system in case one unit ceases to function or is removed for service. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 8:03 AM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Sol-Ark's applications engineers are your friends : ) > > On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 3:13 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > > William, > > > > > > Thanks for the information on grid peak shaving. That is what I thought > > could be done. The description is a misnomer of sorts (like a lot of things > > in Sol-Ark lingo). It's a bit hard to follow and not nearly well > > enough documented, particularly with respect to parallel systems. > > > > > > I follow what you are saying about using the 80A input breakers. The problem > > I have is that you must set the generator kW to 36,000 in the master > > inverter, not 9,000W in each inverter. The concept of "underrating" the > > input breakers theorizes that each inverter will share the generator > > pass-through equally. I do not know that to be the case. And what happens if > > the three slave inverters have a fault or are turned off? That would allow > > the single master to pass through the full generator supply. Obviously this > > trips the 80A input breaker and protects the conductors, but I feel that is > > a design deficiency when a single inverter is fully capable of passing > > through all 150A. > > > > > > On top of that, I don't think the 80A output breakers are sufficient because > > each inverter can peak shave 50A with inverter power from the batteries. Add > > that to the theorized balanced 37.5A "grid" input, and you are at 87.5A of > > possible throughput. > > > > > > But assuming the 80A input/output concept works, other than a panelboard > > with bolt on breakers, what low-cost load center allows you to fasten four > > 80A backfed breakers? If this is available, I could use a recommendation. > > The load centers I am familiar with only have provisions for one fastened > > backfed breaker. > > > > > > With respect to the bypass, I would usually use a DPDT switch to accomplish > > this, Even for 400A bypasses, there seems to be a relatively cost effective > > option in the Ronk 7416 (which to date I have not used). I get the concept > > for smaller (<=100A) generators that you could use a generator interlock on > > an off-the-shelf load center. But they typically only allow a single backfed > > 2-pole breaker, whereas something like a Square D QO panel with a backfed > > 150A breaker requires 4 spaces and is incompatible with the interlock > > device. > > > > > > Always, this is a great discussion and specific recommended equipment is > > appreciated. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 12:33 AM William Miller > [william at millersolar.com]> wrote: > > > > > > > Jason: > > > > > >   > > > > > > Sol-Arc does provide generator support.  They call it “grid peak load > > > shaving” and it is described on page 22 of the manual.  Below is an > > > excerpt. > > > > > >   > > > > > > [data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7] > > > > > >   > > > > > > For those that may not be familiar with the concept of generator support, > > > here is how I describe it:  The inverter(s) are programmed for the > > > generator capacity.  If the generator is powering loads and the demand > > > exceeds that programmed generator capacity, the inverter can start > > > inverting and synchronize output to the generator to add power.  This is > > > only possible if battery charge levels are adequate.  In the Sol-Arc this > > > function can be adjusted or turned off. > > > > > >   > > > > > > Regarding my recommendations on wire sizing:  I may have done a poor job > > > describing how I see your project best approached.  Below is a diagram > > > that may do a better job.  Power flow is from left to right: > > > > > >   > > > > > > [data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7] > > > > > >   > > > > > > If you follow what I am laying down, you can see there is no single > > > inverter or inverter wire that can pass or create more than 80 amps.  Ergo > > > #4 copper.  The money and time you save can easily purchase 8 80 amp > > > breakers.  If you look at Diagram 10 in the April 5, 2022 Sol-Arc manual > > > you will see this concept shown, albeit without bypass capabilities and > > > with a separate “LOAD AC Combiner panel.”  The separate panel is > > > redundant,-- all of the breakers in the AC combiner panel could be located > > > in the “Main Breaker Panel.” > > > > > >   > > > > > > Contemplate this:  Just because an inverter can pass-through 200 amps, > > > does not mean it can pass through amps above what the input breaker > > > provides. > > > > > >   > > > > > > I hope I have been more clear.  I also hope you don’t spend a lot of money > > > on and wrassle wire larger than is needed.  > > > > > >   > > > > > > Call me if I can help in any way. > > > > > >   > > > > > > William > > > > > >   > > > > > > PS:  Below is a diagram on how to provide bypass.  I tried to depict the > > > bypass interlock graphically.  The point is you cannot turn on the bypass > > > breaker without turning off the inverter output breakers.  See photos of > > > the actual hardware on the web page linked below.  I find bypass very > > > handy because if there is an inverter or battery failure the client can > > > restore power immediately and I can respond at a more convenient time. > > > > > >   > > > > > >   > > > > > > [data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7] > > > > > >   > > > > > >   > > > > > > Wm > > > > > >   > > > > > > Miller Solar > > > > > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > > > > > 805-438-5600 > > > > > > www.millersolar.com > > > [https://mailtrack.io/l/3deb3f7f51095bae3cfd8b42df221b4dca044e0a?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.millersolar.com%2F&u=1613865&signature=79e9e2e0e8d662d0] > > > > > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > >   > > > > > >   > > > > > > From: Jason Szumlanski [mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com > > > [jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com]] > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2024 6:41 PM > > > To: William Miller; RE-wrenches > > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output > > > > > >   > > > > > > #4 wire as the output of each inverter is definitely not adequate, as each > > > inverter can pass through 150A of generator power. In theory it would be > > > spit across all four, but that doesn't matter. It's an open spigot, so at > > > a minimum the output conductors would need to be 150A rated in my opinion. > > > The complication arises when you don't know whether the inverter can > > > supplement this AC output all the way to the 200A load OCPD integral to > > > the inverter. For that reason, I believe you need to size the output > > > conductors to 200A, not 150A in this case. I am trying to find out > > > definitively if generator support mode is supplied by Sol-Ark s. > > > > > >   > > > > > > As for paralleling the outputs, landing the outputs on breakers becomes > > > problematic and very expensive. Since the outputs need to be 150A minimum > > > or 200A maximum (as discussed previously), how would you do a 400A > > > panelboard with four of these large breakers in it, keeping in mind that > > > all four need to be fastened as backfed main breakers? I don't see a > > > practical way to make that happen. > > > > > >   > > > > > > The same thing applies to combining the generator inputs. You would need 4 > > > x 150A backfed breakers, all fastened to the bus. Is there a cost > > > effective way to accomplish this? > > > > > >   > > > > > > Serviceability and bypass are obvious desires, but at what cost? If an > > > inverter needs to be taken out of service, it's fairly easy to remove the > > > supply and load conductors. And this highlights my issue... What if three > > > of four inverters need to be removed from service? Then absolute 150A > > > generator power can flow through the remaining single inverter, meaning > > > the output conductors need to be sized accordingly.  > > > > > >   > > > > > > Jason > > > > > >   > > > > > >   > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 26, 2024, 9:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Jason: > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > I am wondering on the advisability of hardwiring the outputs of all four > > > > inverters together.  If one inverter fails the other three can backfeed > > > > into it without any means to disconnect the failed inverter and without > > > > over-current protection.  Have you considered landing the output of each > > > > inverter on a separate, appropriately sized 2 pole breaker in the output > > > > load-center? > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > In the same vein, how are you feeding generator input into the > > > > inverters?  Are these hard-wired paralleled as well?  You might consider > > > > having the generator feed a dedicated load-center with an appropriately > > > > sized breaker to feed each inverter.  You protect the conductors as > > > > required and you can isolate any inverter for service > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > What size should these breaker be?  If your inverter can supply 62.5 > > > > AAC, upsizing for continuous duty and to the next higher standard > > > > breaker size you get 80 amps.  If you use 80 amp breakers into and out > > > > of each Sol-Arc you require #4 copper at 75°C.  Each inverter and all of > > > > the conductors are protected for the max current they will see and you > > > > get the combined amperage at your output.  There should be no need to > > > > run 400 amp wire. > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > BTW, you can easily contrive a bypass system by creating a sliding > > > > mechanical interlock.  You run an appropriately sized feeder between the > > > > generator fed and inverter fed panels.  The bypass breaker in the > > > > inverter-fed panels is interlocked with the inverter output breakers.  > > > > The installation might look like this > > > > [https://mailtrack.io/l/e90ccdb6d87171ee02747bc52f4aa4c7f57064ca?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmillersolar.com%2FMillerSolar%2FPortfolio%2FInverters%2Fbattery_iinverters%2FChimney_Rock%2FChimney_rock.html&u=1613865&signature=38c4488f52bdc385].  > > > > This is way cheaper and easier than installing an additional 200A, > > > > double-throw safety switch.  (A home-made interlock may not be listed > > > > but what is the worse that will happen if all breakers are on?  The > > > > inverters will detect backfeed and shut down.  No harm will come of it.) > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > William > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > Miller Solar > > > > > > > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > > > > > > > 805-438-5600 > > > > > > > > www.millersolar.com > > > > [https://mailtrack.io/l/7e13e4b3b56e5496552a9f21904f404635490f63?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.millersolar.com%2F&u=1613865&signature=6c634bcc39faeca3] > > > > > > > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > [re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]] On Behalf Of Jason > > > > Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2024 2:26 PM > > > > To: RE-wrenches > > > > Cc: Jason Szumlanski > > > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > I am going to have a quad-stack of Sol-Ark 15K for an off-grid 120/240V > > > > system with a 150A generator. I know the max real power is 62.5A each > > > > inverter including battery and PV. That would be 62.5A x 4 = 250A total. > > > > I intend to connect the output of the 4 inverters together with a 5-port > > > > Polaris tap, with the output of the Polaris Tap going to a 400A main lug > > > > only panelboard.  > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > My question revolves around the 200A passthrough capability for the > > > > generator, which is 150A max output and would be connected to the Grid > > > > input on each inverter. Since each inverter would need to handle the > > > > full pass-through current, that would require minimum 150A conductors on > > > > the input side of each inverter. I am under the impression that the > > > > inverters can supplement the "grid" or generator in this case if the > > > > current exceeds the available input. That means the inverter would have > > > > 150A of input plus 62.5A  of inverter power for a total of 212.5A. But > > > > there is a 200A load OCPD, so I could size the load conductors from each > > > > inverter for 200A. > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > Obviously the 4 inverters can only pass through 150A from the generator > > > > in total, which would probably be split among them, but could go through > > > > a single unit if the rest fail. > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > Now, is it possible for each inverter to output 62.5A each PLUS 150A of > > > > generator power spread across them for a total of 400A? That is > > > > important because I would need to size the combined output conductors > > > > for 400A if that is the case. > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > I guess I'm not clear on how Sol-Ark 15K handles grid/generator > > > > assist/supplement. It does not seem to be documented clearly. > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > > > > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > [https://mailtrack.io/l/5f5ecb45fa0ccb0d11cccafb2c0f97618fa79e70?url=http%3A%2F%2Fre-wrenches.org&u=1613865&signature=fdeabe6cf92ab25a] > > > > > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > [RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > [https://mailtrack.io/l/020c93287659704ad1c52093f304e341f5d0498c?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&u=1613865&signature=3efe2a50c80c33a7] > > > > > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > > > > the other: > > > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > > > [https://mailtrack.io/l/52cc42ac082af0eeca614dbe4c0d638d5d336ad1?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2F&u=1613865&signature=209030a25db2ff5a] > > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > [https://mailtrack.io/l/f48fe27d75d453c7157b484946d36bcdf4698ad0?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Fpipermail%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&u=1613865&signature=42f5213a717423ce] > > > > > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > [https://mailtrack.io/l/076ca2ee1c125ea468d20fa3e4c460f58b568b0d?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&u=1613865&signature=96238382e5fb3b50] > > > > > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > [https://mailtrack.io/l/d6a9b62f894eaeef0e7d7d91724b427d785ae85e?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&u=1613865&signature=e4238f11cf07c6fa] > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > [http://re-wrenches.org] > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > [RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > > other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] > > > > > -- > > > Michael Morningstar  > > > > > Morningstar Electric Inc > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > CSLB 1116835 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com [mjmorningstar at gmail.com] > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [http://re-wrenches.org] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > [RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Mar 27 15:09:02 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2024 12:09:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output In-Reply-To: References: <8376e7e090df19a7f4a61647655298b3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Jason: Replies below. Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com] *Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 3:12 AM *To:* william at millersolar.com *Cc:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output William, Thanks for the information on grid peak shaving. That is what I thought could be done. The description is a misnomer of sorts (like a lot of things in Sol-Ark lingo). It's a bit hard to follow and not nearly well enough documented, particularly with respect to parallel systems. You are welcome. The Sol-Arc manual is not a great manual in any regards. I follow what you are saying about using the 80A input breakers. The problem I have is that you must set the generator kW to 36,000 in the master inverter, not 9,000W in each inverter. The concept of "underrating" the input breakers theorizes that each inverter will share the generator pass-through equally. I do not know that to be the case. And what happens if the three slave inverters have a fault or are turned off? That would allow the single master to pass through the full generator supply. Obviously this trips the 80A input breaker and protects the conductors, but I feel that is a design deficiency when a single inverter is fully capable of passing through all 150A. You may be designing for an eventuality that will never occur: If the inverters fail then they should be repaired or replaced. While awaiting repair the bypass will keep your loads powered at full capacity. On top of that, I don't think the 80A output breakers are sufficient because each inverter can peak shave 50A with inverter power from the batteries. Add that to the theorized balanced 37.5A "grid" input, and you are at 87.5A of possible throughput. I am not sure why you are designing to deliver more than the inverters will produce. The generator support function is intended to assist powering loads when the generator is undersized. I define that as the generator ampacity being less than that of the inverter system. The 36kVA generator is greater in ampacity than 4 Sol-Arc 15s. You can turn the generator support function down or off in the Sol-Arc. I would recommend it be set to off for this project. (If there are to be occasional loads that are greater than the inverters can deliver, like a welder or a car charger, with the plan I suggested you have a generator-fed panel that can feed those occasional large loads with the generator running.) But assuming the 80A input/output concept works, other than a panelboard with bolt on breakers, what low-cost load center allows you to fasten four 80A backfed breakers? If this is available, I could use a recommendation. The load centers I am familiar with only have provisions for one fastened backfed breaker. I use to specify bolt-on panels for this but I came to believe this is overkill. QO breakers are held in place by the panel cover that overlaps the breakers. Other breakers are configured so the contact points for the breaker bus are recessed. You need to convince your AHJ that this satisfies the requirement. Part of the discussion should include the point that off-grid systems are specialized and people that do not understand them should not be working on them (or judging them-- is what I tell inexperienced plan-checkers). With respect to the bypass, I would usually use a DPDT switch to accomplish this, Even for 400A bypasses, there seems to be a relatively cost effective option in the Ronk 7416 (which to date I have not used). I get the concept for smaller (<=100A) generators that you could use a generator interlock on an off-the-shelf load center. But they typically only allow a single backfed 2-pole breaker, whereas something like a Square D QO panel with a backfed 150A breaker requires 4 spaces and is incompatible with the interlock device. Since bypass is an emergency condition, I sometimes limit my bypass to 100 amps. If you want full bypass ampacity you can build an interlock to accommodate any size breaker. Here is a photo of a large frame breaker being interlocked. Here is a design sketch exploring multiple interlock options. Always, this is a great discussion and specific recommended equipment is appreciated. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 12:33 AM William Miller wrote: Jason: Sol-Arc does provide generator support. They call it “grid peak load shaving” and it is described on page 22 of the manual. Below is an excerpt. *Error! Filename not specified.* For those that may not be familiar with the concept of generator support, here is how I describe it: The inverter(s) are programmed for the generator capacity. If the generator is powering loads and the demand exceeds that programmed generator capacity, the inverter can start inverting and synchronize output to the generator to add power. This is only possible if battery charge levels are adequate. In the Sol-Arc this function can be adjusted or turned off. Regarding my recommendations on wire sizing: I may have done a poor job describing how I see your project best approached. Below is a diagram that may do a better job. Power flow is from left to right: *Error! Filename not specified.* If you follow what I am laying down, you can see there is no single inverter or inverter wire that can pass or create more than 80 amps. Ergo #4 copper. The money and time you save can easily purchase 8 80 amp breakers. If you look at Diagram 10 in the April 5, 2022 Sol-Arc manual you will see this concept shown, albeit without bypass capabilities and with a separate “LOAD AC Combiner panel.” The separate panel is redundant,-- all of the breakers in the AC combiner panel could be located in the “Main Breaker Panel.” Contemplate this: Just because an inverter can pass-through 200 amps, does not mean it can pass through amps above what the input breaker provides. I hope I have been more clear. I also hope you don’t spend a lot of money on and wrassle wire larger than is needed. Call me if I can help in any way. William PS: Below is a diagram on how to provide bypass. I tried to depict the bypass interlock graphically. The point is you cannot turn *on* the bypass breaker without turning *off* the inverter output breakers. See photos of the actual hardware on the web page linked below. I find bypass very handy because if there is an inverter or battery failure the client can restore power immediately and I can respond at a more convenient time. *Error! Filename not specified.* Wm Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com] *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2024 6:41 PM *To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output #4 wire as the output of each inverter is definitely not adequate, as each inverter can pass through 150A of generator power. In theory it would be spit across all four, but that doesn't matter. It's an open spigot, so at a minimum the output conductors would need to be 150A rated in my opinion. The complication arises when you don't know whether the inverter can supplement this AC output all the way to the 200A load OCPD integral to the inverter. For that reason, I believe you need to size the output conductors to 200A, not 150A in this case. I am trying to find out definitively if generator support mode is supplied by Sol-Ark s. As for paralleling the outputs, landing the outputs on breakers becomes problematic and very expensive. Since the outputs need to be 150A minimum or 200A maximum (as discussed previously), how would you do a 400A panelboard with four of these large breakers in it, keeping in mind that all four need to be fastened as backfed main breakers? I don't see a practical way to make that happen. The same thing applies to combining the generator inputs. You would need 4 x 150A backfed breakers, all fastened to the bus. Is there a cost effective way to accomplish this? Serviceability and bypass are obvious desires, but at what cost? If an inverter needs to be taken out of service, it's fairly easy to remove the supply and load conductors. And this highlights my issue... What if three of four inverters need to be removed from service? Then absolute 150A generator power can flow through the remaining single inverter, meaning the output conductors need to be sized accordingly. Jason On Tue, Mar 26, 2024, 9:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Jason: I am wondering on the advisability of hardwiring the outputs of all four inverters together. If one inverter fails the other three can backfeed into it without any means to disconnect the failed inverter and without over-current protection. Have you considered landing the output of each inverter on a separate, appropriately sized 2 pole breaker in the output load-center? In the same vein, how are you feeding generator input into the inverters? Are these hard-wired paralleled as well? You might consider having the generator feed a dedicated load-center with an appropriately sized breaker to feed each inverter. You protect the conductors as required and you can isolate any inverter for service What size should these breaker be? If your inverter can supply 62.5 AAC, upsizing for continuous duty and to the next higher standard breaker size you get 80 amps. If you use 80 amp breakers into and out of each Sol-Arc you require #4 copper at 75°C. Each inverter and all of the conductors are protected for the max current they will see and you get the combined amperage at your output. There should be no need to run 400 amp wire. BTW, you can easily contrive a bypass system by creating a sliding mechanical interlock. You run an appropriately sized feeder between the generator fed and inverter fed panels. The bypass breaker in the inverter-fed panels is interlocked with the inverter output breakers. The installation might look like this . This is way cheaper and easier than installing an additional 200A, double-throw safety switch. (A home-made interlock may not be listed but what is the worse that will happen if all breakers are on? The inverters will detect backfeed and shut down. No harm will come of it.) Hope this helps. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2024 2:26 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output I am going to have a quad-stack of Sol-Ark 15K for an off-grid 120/240V system with a 150A generator. I know the max real power is 62.5A each inverter including battery and PV. That would be 62.5A x 4 = 250A total. I intend to connect the output of the 4 inverters together with a 5-port Polaris tap, with the output of the Polaris Tap going to a 400A main lug only panelboard. My question revolves around the 200A passthrough capability for the generator, which is 150A max output and would be connected to the Grid input on each inverter. Since each inverter would need to handle the full pass-through current, that would require minimum 150A conductors on the input side of each inverter. I am under the impression that the inverters can supplement the "grid" or generator in this case if the current exceeds the available input. That means the inverter would have 150A of input plus 62.5A of inverter power for a total of 212.5A. But there is a 200A load OCPD, so I could size the load conductors from each inverter for 200A. Obviously the 4 inverters can only pass through 150A from the generator in total, which would probably be split among them, but could go through a single unit if the rest fail. Now, is it possible for each inverter to output 62.5A each PLUS 150A of generator power spread across them for a total of 400A? That is important because I would need to size the combined output conductors for 400A if that is the case. I guess I'm not clear on how Sol-Ark 15K handles grid/generator assist/supplement. It does not seem to be documented clearly. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Wed Mar 27 15:38:13 2024 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2024 15:38:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output In-Reply-To: References: <8376e7e090df19a7f4a61647655298b3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: www.interlockkit.com - they stock and custom make interlock bypasses including multiple breakers. Square D also makes a 400 A panel which excepts either bolt on or snap on QO breakers. *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 3:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jason: > > > > Replies below. > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com] > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 3:12 AM > *To:* william at millersolar.com > *Cc:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output > > > > William, > > > > Thanks for the information on grid peak shaving. That is what I thought > could be done. The description is a misnomer of sorts (like a lot of things > in Sol-Ark lingo). It's a bit hard to follow and not nearly well > enough documented, particularly with respect to parallel systems. You > are welcome. The Sol-Arc manual is not a great manual in any regards. > > > > I follow what you are saying about using the 80A input breakers. The > problem I have is that you must set the generator kW to 36,000 in the > master inverter, not 9,000W in each inverter. The concept of "underrating" > the input breakers theorizes that each inverter will share the generator > pass-through equally. I do not know that to be the case. And what happens > if the three slave inverters have a fault or are turned off? That would > allow the single master to pass through the full generator supply. > Obviously this trips the 80A input breaker and protects the conductors, but > I feel that is a design deficiency when a single inverter is fully capable > of passing through all 150A. You may be designing for an eventuality > that will never occur: If the inverters fail then they should be repaired > or replaced. While awaiting repair the bypass will keep your loads powered > at full capacity. > > > > On top of that, I don't think the 80A output breakers are sufficient > because each inverter can peak shave 50A with inverter power from the > batteries. Add that to the theorized balanced 37.5A "grid" input, and you > are at 87.5A of possible throughput. I am not sure why you are designing > to deliver more than the inverters will produce. The generator support > function is intended to assist powering loads when the generator is > undersized. I define that as the generator ampacity being less than that > of the inverter system. The 36kVA generator is greater in ampacity than 4 > Sol-Arc 15s. You can turn the generator support function down or off in > the Sol-Arc. I would recommend it be set to off for this project. (If > there are to be occasional loads that are greater than the inverters can > deliver, like a welder or a car charger, with the plan I suggested you have > a generator-fed panel that can feed those occasional large loads with the > generator running.) > > > > But assuming the 80A input/output concept works, other than a panelboard > with bolt on breakers, what low-cost load center allows you to fasten four > 80A backfed breakers? If this is available, I could use a recommendation. > The load centers I am familiar with only have provisions for one fastened > backfed breaker. I use to specify bolt-on panels for this but I came to > believe this is overkill. QO breakers are held in place by the panel cover > that overlaps the breakers. Other breakers are configured so the contact > points for the breaker bus are recessed. You need to convince your AHJ > that this satisfies the requirement. Part of the discussion should include > the point that off-grid systems are specialized and people that do not > understand them should not be working on them (or judging them-- is what I > tell inexperienced plan-checkers). > > > > With respect to the bypass, I would usually use a DPDT switch to > accomplish this, Even for 400A bypasses, there seems to be a relatively > cost effective option in the Ronk 7416 (which to date I have not used). I > get the concept for smaller (<=100A) generators that you could use a > generator interlock on an off-the-shelf load center. But they typically > only allow a single backfed 2-pole breaker, whereas something like a Square > D QO panel with a backfed 150A breaker requires 4 spaces and is > incompatible with the interlock device. Since bypass is an emergency > condition, I sometimes limit my bypass to 100 amps. If you want full > bypass ampacity you can build an interlock to accommodate any size > breaker. Here > > is a photo of a large frame breaker being interlocked. Here > > is a design sketch exploring multiple interlock options. > > > > Always, this is a great discussion and specific recommended equipment is > appreciated. > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 12:33 AM William Miller > wrote: > > Jason: > > > > Sol-Arc does provide generator support. They call it “grid peak load > shaving” and it is described on page 22 of the manual. Below is an excerpt. > > > > *Error! Filename not specified.* > > > > For those that may not be familiar with the concept of generator support, > here is how I describe it: The inverter(s) are programmed for the > generator capacity. If the generator is powering loads and the demand > exceeds that programmed generator capacity, the inverter can start > inverting and synchronize output to the generator to add power. This is > only possible if battery charge levels are adequate. In the Sol-Arc this > function can be adjusted or turned off. > > > > Regarding my recommendations on wire sizing: I may have done a poor job > describing how I see your project best approached. Below is a diagram that > may do a better job. Power flow is from left to right: > > > > *Error! Filename not specified.* > > > > If you follow what I am laying down, you can see there is no single > inverter or inverter wire that can pass or create more than 80 amps. Ergo > #4 copper. The money and time you save can easily purchase 8 80 amp > breakers. If you look at Diagram 10 in the April 5, 2022 Sol-Arc manual > you will see this concept shown, albeit without bypass capabilities and > with a separate “LOAD AC Combiner panel.” The separate panel is > redundant,-- all of the breakers in the AC combiner panel could be located > in the “Main Breaker Panel.” > > > > Contemplate this: Just because an inverter can pass-through 200 amps, > does not mean it can pass through amps above what the input breaker > provides. > > > > I hope I have been more clear. I also hope you don’t spend a lot of money > on and wrassle wire larger than is needed. > > > > Call me if I can help in any way. > > > > William > > > > PS: Below is a diagram on how to provide bypass. I tried to depict the > bypass interlock graphically. The point is you cannot turn *on* the > bypass breaker without turning *off* the inverter output breakers. See > photos of the actual hardware on the web page linked below. I find bypass > very handy because if there is an inverter or battery failure the client > can restore power immediately and I can respond at a more convenient time. > > > > > > *Error! Filename not specified.* > > > > > > Wm > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com] > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2024 6:41 PM > *To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output > > > > #4 wire as the output of each inverter is definitely not adequate, as each > inverter can pass through 150A of generator power. In theory it would be > spit across all four, but that doesn't matter. It's an open spigot, so at a > minimum the output conductors would need to be 150A rated in my opinion. > The complication arises when you don't know whether the inverter can > supplement this AC output all the way to the 200A load OCPD integral to the > inverter. For that reason, I believe you need to size the output conductors > to 200A, not 150A in this case. I am trying to find out definitively if > generator support mode is supplied by Sol-Ark s. > > > > As for paralleling the outputs, landing the outputs on breakers becomes > problematic and very expensive. Since the outputs need to be 150A minimum > or 200A maximum (as discussed previously), how would you do a 400A > panelboard with four of these large breakers in it, keeping in mind that > all four need to be fastened as backfed main breakers? I don't see a > practical way to make that happen. > > > > The same thing applies to combining the generator inputs. You would need 4 > x 150A backfed breakers, all fastened to the bus. Is there a cost effective > way to accomplish this? > > > > Serviceability and bypass are obvious desires, but at what cost? If an > inverter needs to be taken out of service, it's fairly easy to remove the > supply and load conductors. And this highlights my issue... What if three > of four inverters need to be removed from service? Then absolute 150A > generator power can flow through the remaining single inverter, meaning the > output conductors need to be sized accordingly. > > > > Jason > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 26, 2024, 9:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Jason: > > > > I am wondering on the advisability of hardwiring the outputs of all four > inverters together. If one inverter fails the other three can backfeed > into it without any means to disconnect the failed inverter and without > over-current protection. Have you considered landing the output of each > inverter on a separate, appropriately sized 2 pole breaker in the output > load-center? > > > > In the same vein, how are you feeding generator input into the inverters? > Are these hard-wired paralleled as well? You might consider having the > generator feed a dedicated load-center with an appropriately sized breaker > to feed each inverter. You protect the conductors as required and you can > isolate any inverter for service > > > > What size should these breaker be? If your inverter can supply 62.5 AAC, > upsizing for continuous duty and to the next higher standard breaker size > you get 80 amps. If you use 80 amp breakers into and out of each Sol-Arc > you require #4 copper at 75°C. Each inverter and all of the conductors are > protected for the max current they will see and you get the combined > amperage at your output. There should be no need to run 400 amp wire. > > > > BTW, you can easily contrive a bypass system by creating a sliding > mechanical interlock. You run an appropriately sized feeder between the > generator fed and inverter fed panels. The bypass breaker in the > inverter-fed panels is interlocked with the inverter output breakers. The > installation might look like this > . > This is way cheaper and easier than installing an additional 200A, > double-throw safety switch. (A home-made interlock may not be listed but > what is the worse that will happen if all breakers are on? The inverters > will detect backfeed and shut down. No harm will come of it.) > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2024 2:26 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output > > > > I am going to have a quad-stack of Sol-Ark 15K for an off-grid 120/240V > system with a 150A generator. I know the max real power is 62.5A each > inverter including battery and PV. That would be 62.5A x 4 = 250A total. I > intend to connect the output of the 4 inverters together with a 5-port > Polaris tap, with the output of the Polaris Tap going to a 400A main lug > only panelboard. > > > > My question revolves around the 200A passthrough capability for the > generator, which is 150A max output and would be connected to the Grid > input on each inverter. Since each inverter would need to handle the full > pass-through current, that would require minimum 150A conductors on the > input side of each inverter. I am under the impression that the inverters > can supplement the "grid" or generator in this case if the current exceeds > the available input. That means the inverter would have 150A of input plus > 62.5A of inverter power for a total of 212.5A. But there is a 200A load > OCPD, so I could size the load conductors from each inverter for 200A. > > > > Obviously the 4 inverters can only pass through 150A from the generator in > total, which would probably be split among them, but could go through a > single unit if the rest fail. > > > > Now, is it possible for each inverter to output 62.5A each PLUS 150A of > generator power spread across them for a total of 400A? That is important > because I would need to size the combined output conductors for 400A if > that is the case. > > > > I guess I'm not clear on how Sol-Ark 15K handles grid/generator > assist/supplement. It does not seem to be documented clearly. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Mar 27 17:24:04 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2024 14:24:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output In-Reply-To: References: <8376e7e090df19a7f4a61647655298b3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3027717969eb81fe9ff08f2555352473@mail.gmail.com> Kirk: Very interesting. Thank you for that link. Let’s consider the options: · The interlocks from this supplier can be a bit pricey ($350-450 for what we are talking about). · If you want to make your own interlock the materials are less than $10. The hardest part is cutting clean slots in aluminum plate. I use a CNC router. Before I acquired the CNC I made a jig for a standard router. Or drill, jig saw and file. The notches are easy to mock up in either CAD format (cardboard or computer) and cut with a band or jig saw. Your first one will take an hour or two to fabricate. · Compare this to a Ronk 7416 at about $1500 (I find the Ronks to be a bit wonky to use. Let’s call them Ronky.) Add to that the space required and the plumbing and wiring for 400 amps (I think Jason can specify a 200 A switch). Plus if you are not combining your inverters in an existing load center you need another load center for combining. This can really add up. With either interlock option, the inverter combining, the interlocked bypass and output breakers all fit into one load center. I hope the time we spent on this discussion helps someone out there. That’s why we do it. Wm Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* Kirk Herander [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] *Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 12:38 PM *To:* RE-wrenches; william at millersolar.com *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output www.interlockkit.com - they stock and custom make interlock bypasses including multiple breakers. Square D also makes a 400 A panel which excepts either bolt on or snap on QO breakers. *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 3:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Jason: Replies below. Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com] *Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 3:12 AM *To:* william at millersolar.com *Cc:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output William, Thanks for the information on grid peak shaving. That is what I thought could be done. The description is a misnomer of sorts (like a lot of things in Sol-Ark lingo). It's a bit hard to follow and not nearly well enough documented, particularly with respect to parallel systems. You are welcome. The Sol-Arc manual is not a great manual in any regards. I follow what you are saying about using the 80A input breakers. The problem I have is that you must set the generator kW to 36,000 in the master inverter, not 9,000W in each inverter. The concept of "underrating" the input breakers theorizes that each inverter will share the generator pass-through equally. I do not know that to be the case. And what happens if the three slave inverters have a fault or are turned off? That would allow the single master to pass through the full generator supply. Obviously this trips the 80A input breaker and protects the conductors, but I feel that is a design deficiency when a single inverter is fully capable of passing through all 150A. You may be designing for an eventuality that will never occur: If the inverters fail then they should be repaired or replaced. While awaiting repair the bypass will keep your loads powered at full capacity. On top of that, I don't think the 80A output breakers are sufficient because each inverter can peak shave 50A with inverter power from the batteries. Add that to the theorized balanced 37.5A "grid" input, and you are at 87.5A of possible throughput. I am not sure why you are designing to deliver more than the inverters will produce. The generator support function is intended to assist powering loads when the generator is undersized. I define that as the generator ampacity being less than that of the inverter system. The 36kVA generator is greater in ampacity than 4 Sol-Arc 15s. You can turn the generator support function down or off in the Sol-Arc. I would recommend it be set to off for this project. (If there are to be occasional loads that are greater than the inverters can deliver, like a welder or a car charger, with the plan I suggested you have a generator-fed panel that can feed those occasional large loads with the generator running.) But assuming the 80A input/output concept works, other than a panelboard with bolt on breakers, what low-cost load center allows you to fasten four 80A backfed breakers? If this is available, I could use a recommendation. The load centers I am familiar with only have provisions for one fastened backfed breaker. I use to specify bolt-on panels for this but I came to believe this is overkill. QO breakers are held in place by the panel cover that overlaps the breakers. Other breakers are configured so the contact points for the breaker bus are recessed. You need to convince your AHJ that this satisfies the requirement. Part of the discussion should include the point that off-grid systems are specialized and people that do not understand them should not be working on them (or judging them-- is what I tell inexperienced plan-checkers). With respect to the bypass, I would usually use a DPDT switch to accomplish this, Even for 400A bypasses, there seems to be a relatively cost effective option in the Ronk 7416 (which to date I have not used). I get the concept for smaller (<=100A) generators that you could use a generator interlock on an off-the-shelf load center. But they typically only allow a single backfed 2-pole breaker, whereas something like a Square D QO panel with a backfed 150A breaker requires 4 spaces and is incompatible with the interlock device. Since bypass is an emergency condition, I sometimes limit my bypass to 100 amps. If you want full bypass ampacity you can build an interlock to accommodate any size breaker. Here is a photo of a large frame breaker being interlocked. Here is a design sketch exploring multiple interlock options. Always, this is a great discussion and specific recommended equipment is appreciated. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 12:33 AM William Miller wrote: Jason: Sol-Arc does provide generator support. They call it “grid peak load shaving” and it is described on page 22 of the manual. Below is an excerpt. *Error! Filename not specified.* For those that may not be familiar with the concept of generator support, here is how I describe it: The inverter(s) are programmed for the generator capacity. If the generator is powering loads and the demand exceeds that programmed generator capacity, the inverter can start inverting and synchronize output to the generator to add power. This is only possible if battery charge levels are adequate. In the Sol-Arc this function can be adjusted or turned off. Regarding my recommendations on wire sizing: I may have done a poor job describing how I see your project best approached. Below is a diagram that may do a better job. Power flow is from left to right: *Error! Filename not specified.* If you follow what I am laying down, you can see there is no single inverter or inverter wire that can pass or create more than 80 amps. Ergo #4 copper. The money and time you save can easily purchase 8 80 amp breakers. If you look at Diagram 10 in the April 5, 2022 Sol-Arc manual you will see this concept shown, albeit without bypass capabilities and with a separate “LOAD AC Combiner panel.” The separate panel is redundant,-- all of the breakers in the AC combiner panel could be located in the “Main Breaker Panel.” Contemplate this: Just because an inverter can pass-through 200 amps, does not mean it can pass through amps above what the input breaker provides. I hope I have been more clear. I also hope you don’t spend a lot of money on and wrassle wire larger than is needed. Call me if I can help in any way. William PS: Below is a diagram on how to provide bypass. I tried to depict the bypass interlock graphically. The point is you cannot turn *on* the bypass breaker without turning *off* the inverter output breakers. See photos of the actual hardware on the web page linked below. I find bypass very handy because if there is an inverter or battery failure the client can restore power immediately and I can respond at a more convenient time. *Error! Filename not specified.* Wm Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com] *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2024 6:41 PM *To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output #4 wire as the output of each inverter is definitely not adequate, as each inverter can pass through 150A of generator power. In theory it would be spit across all four, but that doesn't matter. It's an open spigot, so at a minimum the output conductors would need to be 150A rated in my opinion. The complication arises when you don't know whether the inverter can supplement this AC output all the way to the 200A load OCPD integral to the inverter. For that reason, I believe you need to size the output conductors to 200A, not 150A in this case. I am trying to find out definitively if generator support mode is supplied by Sol-Ark s. As for paralleling the outputs, landing the outputs on breakers becomes problematic and very expensive. Since the outputs need to be 150A minimum or 200A maximum (as discussed previously), how would you do a 400A panelboard with four of these large breakers in it, keeping in mind that all four need to be fastened as backfed main breakers? I don't see a practical way to make that happen. The same thing applies to combining the generator inputs. You would need 4 x 150A backfed breakers, all fastened to the bus. Is there a cost effective way to accomplish this? Serviceability and bypass are obvious desires, but at what cost? If an inverter needs to be taken out of service, it's fairly easy to remove the supply and load conductors. And this highlights my issue... What if three of four inverters need to be removed from service? Then absolute 150A generator power can flow through the remaining single inverter, meaning the output conductors need to be sized accordingly. Jason On Tue, Mar 26, 2024, 9:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Jason: I am wondering on the advisability of hardwiring the outputs of all four inverters together. If one inverter fails the other three can backfeed into it without any means to disconnect the failed inverter and without over-current protection. Have you considered landing the output of each inverter on a separate, appropriately sized 2 pole breaker in the output load-center? In the same vein, how are you feeding generator input into the inverters? Are these hard-wired paralleled as well? You might consider having the generator feed a dedicated load-center with an appropriately sized breaker to feed each inverter. You protect the conductors as required and you can isolate any inverter for service What size should these breaker be? If your inverter can supply 62.5 AAC, upsizing for continuous duty and to the next higher standard breaker size you get 80 amps. If you use 80 amp breakers into and out of each Sol-Arc you require #4 copper at 75°C. Each inverter and all of the conductors are protected for the max current they will see and you get the combined amperage at your output. There should be no need to run 400 amp wire. BTW, you can easily contrive a bypass system by creating a sliding mechanical interlock. You run an appropriately sized feeder between the generator fed and inverter fed panels. The bypass breaker in the inverter-fed panels is interlocked with the inverter output breakers. The installation might look like this . This is way cheaper and easier than installing an additional 200A, double-throw safety switch. (A home-made interlock may not be listed but what is the worse that will happen if all breakers are on? The inverters will detect backfeed and shut down. No harm will come of it.) Hope this helps. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2024 2:26 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output I am going to have a quad-stack of Sol-Ark 15K for an off-grid 120/240V system with a 150A generator. I know the max real power is 62.5A each inverter including battery and PV. That would be 62.5A x 4 = 250A total. I intend to connect the output of the 4 inverters together with a 5-port Polaris tap, with the output of the Polaris Tap going to a 400A main lug only panelboard. My question revolves around the 200A passthrough capability for the generator, which is 150A max output and would be connected to the Grid input on each inverter. Since each inverter would need to handle the full pass-through current, that would require minimum 150A conductors on the input side of each inverter. I am under the impression that the inverters can supplement the "grid" or generator in this case if the current exceeds the available input. That means the inverter would have 150A of input plus 62.5A of inverter power for a total of 212.5A. But there is a 200A load OCPD, so I could size the load conductors from each inverter for 200A. Obviously the 4 inverters can only pass through 150A from the generator in total, which would probably be split among them, but could go through a single unit if the rest fail. Now, is it possible for each inverter to output 62.5A each PLUS 150A of generator power spread across them for a total of 400A? That is important because I would need to size the combined output conductors for 400A if that is the case. I guess I'm not clear on how Sol-Ark 15K handles grid/generator assist/supplement. It does not seem to be documented clearly. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Wed Mar 27 18:47:30 2024 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2024 18:47:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output In-Reply-To: <3027717969eb81fe9ff08f2555352473@mail.gmail.com> References: <8376e7e090df19a7f4a61647655298b3@mail.gmail.com> <3027717969eb81fe9ff08f2555352473@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I agree. That website is way overpriced on their interlocks. I’ve looked at the one you made from your photos and it looks good. I guess I’ll have to ask you to make me one someday if I am ever in need!!!! *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 5:33 PM William Miller wrote: > Kirk: > > > > Very interesting. Thank you for that link. > > > > Let’s consider the options: > > > > · The interlocks from this supplier can be a bit pricey ($350-450 > for what we are talking about). > > > > · If you want to make your own interlock the materials are less > than $10. The hardest part is cutting clean slots in aluminum plate. I > use a CNC router. Before I acquired the CNC I made a jig for a standard > router. Or drill, jig saw and file. The notches are easy to mock up in > either CAD format (cardboard or computer) and cut with a band or jig saw. > Your first one will take an hour or two to fabricate. > > > > · Compare this to a Ronk 7416 at about $1500 (I find the Ronks to > be a bit wonky to use. Let’s call them Ronky.) Add to that the space > required and the plumbing and wiring for 400 amps (I think Jason can > specify a 200 A switch). Plus if you are not combining your inverters in > an existing load center you need another load center for combining. This > can really add up. > > > > With either interlock option, the inverter combining, the interlocked > bypass and output breakers all fit into one load center. > > > > I hope the time we spent on this discussion helps someone out there. > That’s why we do it. > > > > Wm > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* Kirk Herander [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 12:38 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches; william at millersolar.com > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output > > > > www.interlockkit.com - they stock and custom make interlock bypasses > including multiple breakers. > > > > Square D also makes a 400 A panel which excepts either bolt on or snap on > QO breakers. > > > > > > > > > > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 3:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Jason: > > > > Replies below. > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com] > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 3:12 AM > *To:* william at millersolar.com > *Cc:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output > > > > William, > > > > Thanks for the information on grid peak shaving. That is what I thought > could be done. The description is a misnomer of sorts (like a lot of things > in Sol-Ark lingo). It's a bit hard to follow and not nearly well > enough documented, particularly with respect to parallel systems. You > are welcome. The Sol-Arc manual is not a great manual in any regards. > > > > I follow what you are saying about using the 80A input breakers. The > problem I have is that you must set the generator kW to 36,000 in the > master inverter, not 9,000W in each inverter. The concept of "underrating" > the input breakers theorizes that each inverter will share the generator > pass-through equally. I do not know that to be the case. And what happens > if the three slave inverters have a fault or are turned off? That would > allow the single master to pass through the full generator supply. > Obviously this trips the 80A input breaker and protects the conductors, but > I feel that is a design deficiency when a single inverter is fully capable > of passing through all 150A. You may be designing for an eventuality > that will never occur: If the inverters fail then they should be repaired > or replaced. While awaiting repair the bypass will keep your loads powered > at full capacity. > > > > On top of that, I don't think the 80A output breakers are sufficient > because each inverter can peak shave 50A with inverter power from the > batteries. Add that to the theorized balanced 37.5A "grid" input, and you > are at 87.5A of possible throughput. I am not sure why you are designing > to deliver more than the inverters will produce. The generator support > function is intended to assist powering loads when the generator is > undersized. I define that as the generator ampacity being less than that > of the inverter system. The 36kVA generator is greater in ampacity than 4 > Sol-Arc 15s. You can turn the generator support function down or off in > the Sol-Arc. I would recommend it be set to off for this project. (If > there are to be occasional loads that are greater than the inverters can > deliver, like a welder or a car charger, with the plan I suggested you have > a generator-fed panel that can feed those occasional large loads with the > generator running.) > > > > But assuming the 80A input/output concept works, other than a panelboard > with bolt on breakers, what low-cost load center allows you to fasten four > 80A backfed breakers? If this is available, I could use a recommendation. > The load centers I am familiar with only have provisions for one fastened > backfed breaker. I use to specify bolt-on panels for this but I came to > believe this is overkill. QO breakers are held in place by the panel cover > that overlaps the breakers. Other breakers are configured so the contact > points for the breaker bus are recessed. You need to convince your AHJ > that this satisfies the requirement. Part of the discussion should include > the point that off-grid systems are specialized and people that do not > understand them should not be working on them (or judging them-- is what I > tell inexperienced plan-checkers). > > > > With respect to the bypass, I would usually use a DPDT switch to > accomplish this, Even for 400A bypasses, there seems to be a relatively > cost effective option in the Ronk 7416 (which to date I have not used). I > get the concept for smaller (<=100A) generators that you could use a > generator interlock on an off-the-shelf load center. But they typically > only allow a single backfed 2-pole breaker, whereas something like a Square > D QO panel with a backfed 150A breaker requires 4 spaces and is > incompatible with the interlock device. Since bypass is an emergency > condition, I sometimes limit my bypass to 100 amps. If you want full > bypass ampacity you can build an interlock to accommodate any size > breaker. Here > > is a photo of a large frame breaker being interlocked. Here > > is a design sketch exploring multiple interlock options. > > > > Always, this is a great discussion and specific recommended equipment is > appreciated. > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 12:33 AM William Miller > wrote: > > Jason: > > > > Sol-Arc does provide generator support. They call it “grid peak load > shaving” and it is described on page 22 of the manual. Below is an excerpt. > > > > *Error! Filename not specified.* > > > > For those that may not be familiar with the concept of generator support, > here is how I describe it: The inverter(s) are programmed for the > generator capacity. If the generator is powering loads and the demand > exceeds that programmed generator capacity, the inverter can start > inverting and synchronize output to the generator to add power. This is > only possible if battery charge levels are adequate. In the Sol-Arc this > function can be adjusted or turned off. > > > > Regarding my recommendations on wire sizing: I may have done a poor job > describing how I see your project best approached. Below is a diagram that > may do a better job. Power flow is from left to right: > > > > *Error! Filename not specified.* > > > > If you follow what I am laying down, you can see there is no single > inverter or inverter wire that can pass or create more than 80 amps. Ergo > #4 copper. The money and time you save can easily purchase 8 80 amp > breakers. If you look at Diagram 10 in the April 5, 2022 Sol-Arc manual > you will see this concept shown, albeit without bypass capabilities and > with a separate “LOAD AC Combiner panel.” The separate panel is > redundant,-- all of the breakers in the AC combiner panel could be located > in the “Main Breaker Panel.” > > > > Contemplate this: Just because an inverter can pass-through 200 amps, > does not mean it can pass through amps above what the input breaker > provides. > > > > I hope I have been more clear. I also hope you don’t spend a lot of money > on and wrassle wire larger than is needed. > > > > Call me if I can help in any way. > > > > William > > > > PS: Below is a diagram on how to provide bypass. I tried to depict the > bypass interlock graphically. The point is you cannot turn *on* the > bypass breaker without turning *off* the inverter output breakers. See > photos of the actual hardware on the web page linked below. I find bypass > very handy because if there is an inverter or battery failure the client > can restore power immediately and I can respond at a more convenient time. > > > > > > *Error! Filename not specified.* > > > > > > Wm > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com] > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2024 6:41 PM > *To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output > > > > #4 wire as the output of each inverter is definitely not adequate, as each > inverter can pass through 150A of generator power. In theory it would be > spit across all four, but that doesn't matter. It's an open spigot, so at a > minimum the output conductors would need to be 150A rated in my opinion. > The complication arises when you don't know whether the inverter can > supplement this AC output all the way to the 200A load OCPD integral to the > inverter. For that reason, I believe you need to size the output conductors > to 200A, not 150A in this case. I am trying to find out definitively if > generator support mode is supplied by Sol-Ark s. > > > > As for paralleling the outputs, landing the outputs on breakers becomes > problematic and very expensive. Since the outputs need to be 150A minimum > or 200A maximum (as discussed previously), how would you do a 400A > panelboard with four of these large breakers in it, keeping in mind that > all four need to be fastened as backfed main breakers? I don't see a > practical way to make that happen. > > > > The same thing applies to combining the generator inputs. You would need 4 > x 150A backfed breakers, all fastened to the bus. Is there a cost effective > way to accomplish this? > > > > Serviceability and bypass are obvious desires, but at what cost? If an > inverter needs to be taken out of service, it's fairly easy to remove the > supply and load conductors. And this highlights my issue... What if three > of four inverters need to be removed from service? Then absolute 150A > generator power can flow through the remaining single inverter, meaning the > output conductors need to be sized accordingly. > > > > Jason > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 26, 2024, 9:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Jason: > > > > I am wondering on the advisability of hardwiring the outputs of all four > inverters together. If one inverter fails the other three can backfeed > into it without any means to disconnect the failed inverter and without > over-current protection. Have you considered landing the output of each > inverter on a separate, appropriately sized 2 pole breaker in the output > load-center? > > > > In the same vein, how are you feeding generator input into the inverters? > Are these hard-wired paralleled as well? You might consider having the > generator feed a dedicated load-center with an appropriately sized breaker > to feed each inverter. You protect the conductors as required and you can > isolate any inverter for service > > > > What size should these breaker be? If your inverter can supply 62.5 AAC, > upsizing for continuous duty and to the next higher standard breaker size > you get 80 amps. If you use 80 amp breakers into and out of each Sol-Arc > you require #4 copper at 75°C. Each inverter and all of the conductors are > protected for the max current they will see and you get the combined > amperage at your output. There should be no need to run 400 amp wire. > > > > BTW, you can easily contrive a bypass system by creating a sliding > mechanical interlock. You run an appropriately sized feeder between the > generator fed and inverter fed panels. The bypass breaker in the > inverter-fed panels is interlocked with the inverter output breakers. The > installation might look like this > . > This is way cheaper and easier than installing an additional 200A, > double-throw safety switch. (A home-made interlock may not be listed but > what is the worse that will happen if all breakers are on? The inverters > will detect backfeed and shut down. No harm will come of it.) > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2024 2:26 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output > > > > I am going to have a quad-stack of Sol-Ark 15K for an off-grid 120/240V > system with a 150A generator. I know the max real power is 62.5A each > inverter including battery and PV. That would be 62.5A x 4 = 250A total. I > intend to connect the output of the 4 inverters together with a 5-port > Polaris tap, with the output of the Polaris Tap going to a 400A main lug > only panelboard. > > > > My question revolves around the 200A passthrough capability for the > generator, which is 150A max output and would be connected to the Grid > input on each inverter. Since each inverter would need to handle the full > pass-through current, that would require minimum 150A conductors on the > input side of each inverter. I am under the impression that the inverters > can supplement the "grid" or generator in this case if the current exceeds > the available input. That means the inverter would have 150A of input plus > 62.5A of inverter power for a total of 212.5A. But there is a 200A load > OCPD, so I could size the load conductors from each inverter for 200A. > > > > Obviously the 4 inverters can only pass through 150A from the generator in > total, which would probably be split among them, but could go through a > single unit if the rest fail. > > > > Now, is it possible for each inverter to output 62.5A each PLUS 150A of > generator power spread across them for a total of 400A? That is important > because I would need to size the combined output conductors for 400A if > that is the case. > > > > I guess I'm not clear on how Sol-Ark 15K handles grid/generator > assist/supplement. It does not seem to be documented clearly. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Mar 27 18:52:15 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2024 18:52:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output In-Reply-To: References: <8376e7e090df19a7f4a61647655298b3@mail.gmail.com> <3027717969eb81fe9ff08f2555352473@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I have purchased interlocks for older CH panels and others for around $35 on other sites. If you look around you can get interlocks for all kinds of legacy panels. Jason On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 6:47 PM Kirk Herander wrote: > I agree. That website is way overpriced on their interlocks. I’ve looked > at the one you made from your photos and it looks good. I guess I’ll have > to ask you to make me one someday if I am ever in need!!!! > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > > > On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 5:33 PM William Miller > wrote: > >> Kirk: >> >> >> >> Very interesting. Thank you for that link. >> >> >> >> Let’s consider the options: >> >> >> >> · The interlocks from this supplier can be a bit pricey ($350-450 >> for what we are talking about). >> >> >> >> · If you want to make your own interlock the materials are less >> than $10. The hardest part is cutting clean slots in aluminum plate. I >> use a CNC router. Before I acquired the CNC I made a jig for a standard >> router. Or drill, jig saw and file. The notches are easy to mock up in >> either CAD format (cardboard or computer) and cut with a band or jig saw. >> Your first one will take an hour or two to fabricate. >> >> >> >> · Compare this to a Ronk 7416 at about $1500 (I find the Ronks to >> be a bit wonky to use. Let’s call them Ronky.) Add to that the space >> required and the plumbing and wiring for 400 amps (I think Jason can >> specify a 200 A switch). Plus if you are not combining your inverters in >> an existing load center you need another load center for combining. This >> can really add up. >> >> >> >> With either interlock option, the inverter combining, the interlocked >> bypass and output breakers all fit into one load center. >> >> >> >> I hope the time we spent on this discussion helps someone out there. >> That’s why we do it. >> >> >> >> Wm >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Kirk Herander [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] >> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 12:38 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches; william at millersolar.com >> *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output >> >> >> >> www.interlockkit.com - they stock and custom make interlock bypasses >> including multiple breakers. >> >> >> >> Square D also makes a 400 A panel which excepts either bolt on or snap on >> QO breakers. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >> >> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >> >> *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* >> >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> >> 802.559.1225 >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 3:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Jason: >> >> >> >> Replies below. >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com] >> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 3:12 AM >> *To:* william at millersolar.com >> *Cc:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output >> >> >> >> William, >> >> >> >> Thanks for the information on grid peak shaving. That is what I thought >> could be done. The description is a misnomer of sorts (like a lot of things >> in Sol-Ark lingo). It's a bit hard to follow and not nearly well >> enough documented, particularly with respect to parallel systems. You >> are welcome. The Sol-Arc manual is not a great manual in any regards. >> >> >> >> I follow what you are saying about using the 80A input breakers. The >> problem I have is that you must set the generator kW to 36,000 in the >> master inverter, not 9,000W in each inverter. The concept of "underrating" >> the input breakers theorizes that each inverter will share the generator >> pass-through equally. I do not know that to be the case. And what happens >> if the three slave inverters have a fault or are turned off? That would >> allow the single master to pass through the full generator supply. >> Obviously this trips the 80A input breaker and protects the conductors, but >> I feel that is a design deficiency when a single inverter is fully capable >> of passing through all 150A. You may be designing for an eventuality >> that will never occur: If the inverters fail then they should be repaired >> or replaced. While awaiting repair the bypass will keep your loads powered >> at full capacity. >> >> >> >> On top of that, I don't think the 80A output breakers are sufficient >> because each inverter can peak shave 50A with inverter power from the >> batteries. Add that to the theorized balanced 37.5A "grid" input, and you >> are at 87.5A of possible throughput. I am not sure why you are >> designing to deliver more than the inverters will produce. The generator >> support function is intended to assist powering loads when the generator is >> undersized. I define that as the generator ampacity being less than that >> of the inverter system. The 36kVA generator is greater in ampacity than 4 >> Sol-Arc 15s. You can turn the generator support function down or off in >> the Sol-Arc. I would recommend it be set to off for this project. (If >> there are to be occasional loads that are greater than the inverters can >> deliver, like a welder or a car charger, with the plan I suggested you have >> a generator-fed panel that can feed those occasional large loads with the >> generator running.) >> >> >> >> But assuming the 80A input/output concept works, other than a panelboard >> with bolt on breakers, what low-cost load center allows you to fasten four >> 80A backfed breakers? If this is available, I could use a recommendation. >> The load centers I am familiar with only have provisions for one fastened >> backfed breaker. I use to specify bolt-on panels for this but I came to >> believe this is overkill. QO breakers are held in place by the panel cover >> that overlaps the breakers. Other breakers are configured so the contact >> points for the breaker bus are recessed. You need to convince your AHJ >> that this satisfies the requirement. Part of the discussion should include >> the point that off-grid systems are specialized and people that do not >> understand them should not be working on them (or judging them-- is what I >> tell inexperienced plan-checkers). >> >> >> >> With respect to the bypass, I would usually use a DPDT switch to >> accomplish this, Even for 400A bypasses, there seems to be a relatively >> cost effective option in the Ronk 7416 (which to date I have not used). I >> get the concept for smaller (<=100A) generators that you could use a >> generator interlock on an off-the-shelf load center. But they typically >> only allow a single backfed 2-pole breaker, whereas something like a Square >> D QO panel with a backfed 150A breaker requires 4 spaces and is >> incompatible with the interlock device. Since bypass is an emergency >> condition, I sometimes limit my bypass to 100 amps. If you want full >> bypass ampacity you can build an interlock to accommodate any size >> breaker. Here >> >> is a photo of a large frame breaker being interlocked. Here >> >> is a design sketch exploring multiple interlock options. >> >> >> >> Always, this is a great discussion and specific recommended equipment is >> appreciated. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 12:33 AM William Miller >> wrote: >> >> Jason: >> >> >> >> Sol-Arc does provide generator support. They call it “grid peak load >> shaving” and it is described on page 22 of the manual. Below is an excerpt. >> >> >> >> *Error! Filename not specified.* >> >> >> >> For those that may not be familiar with the concept of generator support, >> here is how I describe it: The inverter(s) are programmed for the >> generator capacity. If the generator is powering loads and the demand >> exceeds that programmed generator capacity, the inverter can start >> inverting and synchronize output to the generator to add power. This is >> only possible if battery charge levels are adequate. In the Sol-Arc this >> function can be adjusted or turned off. >> >> >> >> Regarding my recommendations on wire sizing: I may have done a poor job >> describing how I see your project best approached. Below is a diagram that >> may do a better job. Power flow is from left to right: >> >> >> >> *Error! Filename not specified.* >> >> >> >> If you follow what I am laying down, you can see there is no single >> inverter or inverter wire that can pass or create more than 80 amps. Ergo >> #4 copper. The money and time you save can easily purchase 8 80 amp >> breakers. If you look at Diagram 10 in the April 5, 2022 Sol-Arc manual >> you will see this concept shown, albeit without bypass capabilities and >> with a separate “LOAD AC Combiner panel.” The separate panel is >> redundant,-- all of the breakers in the AC combiner panel could be located >> in the “Main Breaker Panel.” >> >> >> >> Contemplate this: Just because an inverter can pass-through 200 amps, >> does not mean it can pass through amps above what the input breaker >> provides. >> >> >> >> I hope I have been more clear. I also hope you don’t spend a lot of >> money on and wrassle wire larger than is needed. >> >> >> >> Call me if I can help in any way. >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> PS: Below is a diagram on how to provide bypass. I tried to depict the >> bypass interlock graphically. The point is you cannot turn *on* the >> bypass breaker without turning *off* the inverter output breakers. See >> photos of the actual hardware on the web page linked below. I find bypass >> very handy because if there is an inverter or battery failure the client >> can restore power immediately and I can respond at a more convenient time. >> >> >> >> >> >> *Error! Filename not specified.* >> >> >> >> >> >> Wm >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com] >> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2024 6:41 PM >> *To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output >> >> >> >> #4 wire as the output of each inverter is definitely not adequate, as >> each inverter can pass through 150A of generator power. In theory it would >> be spit across all four, but that doesn't matter. It's an open spigot, so >> at a minimum the output conductors would need to be 150A rated in my >> opinion. The complication arises when you don't know whether the inverter >> can supplement this AC output all the way to the 200A load OCPD integral to >> the inverter. For that reason, I believe you need to size the output >> conductors to 200A, not 150A in this case. I am trying to find out >> definitively if generator support mode is supplied by Sol-Ark s. >> >> >> >> As for paralleling the outputs, landing the outputs on breakers becomes >> problematic and very expensive. Since the outputs need to be 150A minimum >> or 200A maximum (as discussed previously), how would you do a 400A >> panelboard with four of these large breakers in it, keeping in mind that >> all four need to be fastened as backfed main breakers? I don't see a >> practical way to make that happen. >> >> >> >> The same thing applies to combining the generator inputs. You would need >> 4 x 150A backfed breakers, all fastened to the bus. Is there a cost >> effective way to accomplish this? >> >> >> >> Serviceability and bypass are obvious desires, but at what cost? If an >> inverter needs to be taken out of service, it's fairly easy to remove the >> supply and load conductors. And this highlights my issue... What if three >> of four inverters need to be removed from service? Then absolute 150A >> generator power can flow through the remaining single inverter, meaning the >> output conductors need to be sized accordingly. >> >> >> >> Jason >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Mar 26, 2024, 9:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Jason: >> >> >> >> I am wondering on the advisability of hardwiring the outputs of all four >> inverters together. If one inverter fails the other three can backfeed >> into it without any means to disconnect the failed inverter and without >> over-current protection. Have you considered landing the output of each >> inverter on a separate, appropriately sized 2 pole breaker in the output >> load-center? >> >> >> >> In the same vein, how are you feeding generator input into the >> inverters? Are these hard-wired paralleled as well? You might consider >> having the generator feed a dedicated load-center with an appropriately >> sized breaker to feed each inverter. You protect the conductors as >> required and you can isolate any inverter for service >> >> >> >> What size should these breaker be? If your inverter can supply 62.5 AAC, >> upsizing for continuous duty and to the next higher standard breaker size >> you get 80 amps. If you use 80 amp breakers into and out of each Sol-Arc >> you require #4 copper at 75°C. Each inverter and all of the conductors are >> protected for the max current they will see and you get the combined >> amperage at your output. There should be no need to run 400 amp wire. >> >> >> >> BTW, you can easily contrive a bypass system by creating a sliding >> mechanical interlock. You run an appropriately sized feeder between the >> generator fed and inverter fed panels. The bypass breaker in the >> inverter-fed panels is interlocked with the inverter output breakers. The >> installation might look like this >> . >> This is way cheaper and easier than installing an additional 200A, >> double-throw safety switch. (A home-made interlock may not be listed but >> what is the worse that will happen if all breakers are on? The inverters >> will detect backfeed and shut down. No harm will come of it.) >> >> >> >> Hope this helps. >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2024 2:26 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output >> >> >> >> I am going to have a quad-stack of Sol-Ark 15K for an off-grid 120/240V >> system with a 150A generator. I know the max real power is 62.5A each >> inverter including battery and PV. That would be 62.5A x 4 = 250A total. I >> intend to connect the output of the 4 inverters together with a 5-port >> Polaris tap, with the output of the Polaris Tap going to a 400A main lug >> only panelboard. >> >> >> >> My question revolves around the 200A passthrough capability for the >> generator, which is 150A max output and would be connected to the Grid >> input on each inverter. Since each inverter would need to handle the full >> pass-through current, that would require minimum 150A conductors on the >> input side of each inverter. I am under the impression that the inverters >> can supplement the "grid" or generator in this case if the current exceeds >> the available input. That means the inverter would have 150A of input plus >> 62.5A of inverter power for a total of 212.5A. But there is a 200A load >> OCPD, so I could size the load conductors from each inverter for 200A. >> >> >> >> Obviously the 4 inverters can only pass through 150A from the generator >> in total, which would probably be split among them, but could go through a >> single unit if the rest fail. >> >> >> >> Now, is it possible for each inverter to output 62.5A each PLUS 150A of >> generator power spread across them for a total of 400A? That is important >> because I would need to size the combined output conductors for 400A if >> that is the case. >> >> >> >> I guess I'm not clear on how Sol-Ark 15K handles grid/generator >> assist/supplement. It does not seem to be documented clearly. >> >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Mar 27 20:13:13 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2024 17:13:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output Message-ID: Jason: Out of respect for everyone’s time on this forum, I try to do some research before I post. Please post a link to these $35 interlocks for 5 breakers (4 inverter breakers against 1 bypass breaker). Otherwise we are talking apples against oranges. Thank you. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com] *Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 3:52 PM *To:* Kirk Herander *Cc:* William Miller; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output I have purchased interlocks for older CH panels and others for around $35 on other sites. If you look around you can get interlocks for all kinds of legacy panels. Jason On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 6:47 PM Kirk Herander wrote: I agree. That website is way overpriced on their interlocks. I’ve looked at the one you made from your photos and it looks good. I guess I’ll have to ask you to make me one someday if I am ever in need!!!! *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 5:33 PM William Miller wrote: Kirk: Very interesting. Thank you for that link. Let’s consider the options: · The interlocks from this supplier can be a bit pricey ($350-450 for what we are talking about). · If you want to make your own interlock the materials are less than $10. The hardest part is cutting clean slots in aluminum plate. I use a CNC router. Before I acquired the CNC I made a jig for a standard router. Or drill, jig saw and file. The notches are easy to mock up in either CAD format (cardboard or computer) and cut with a band or jig saw. Your first one will take an hour or two to fabricate. · Compare this to a Ronk 7416 at about $1500 (I find the Ronks to be a bit wonky to use. Let’s call them Ronky.) Add to that the space required and the plumbing and wiring for 400 amps (I think Jason can specify a 200 A switch). Plus if you are not combining your inverters in an existing load center you need another load center for combining. This can really add up. With either interlock option, the inverter combining, the interlocked bypass and output breakers all fit into one load center. I hope the time we spent on this discussion helps someone out there. That’s why we do it. Wm Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* Kirk Herander [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] *Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 12:38 PM *To:* RE-wrenches; william at millersolar.com *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output www.interlockkit.com - they stock and custom make interlock bypasses including multiple breakers. Square D also makes a 400 A panel which excepts either bolt on or snap on QO breakers. *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 3:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Jason: Replies below. Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com] *Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 3:12 AM *To:* william at millersolar.com *Cc:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output William, Thanks for the information on grid peak shaving. That is what I thought could be done. The description is a misnomer of sorts (like a lot of things in Sol-Ark lingo). It's a bit hard to follow and not nearly well enough documented, particularly with respect to parallel systems. You are welcome. The Sol-Arc manual is not a great manual in any regards. I follow what you are saying about using the 80A input breakers. The problem I have is that you must set the generator kW to 36,000 in the master inverter, not 9,000W in each inverter. The concept of "underrating" the input breakers theorizes that each inverter will share the generator pass-through equally. I do not know that to be the case. And what happens if the three slave inverters have a fault or are turned off? That would allow the single master to pass through the full generator supply. Obviously this trips the 80A input breaker and protects the conductors, but I feel that is a design deficiency when a single inverter is fully capable of passing through all 150A. You may be designing for an eventuality that will never occur: If the inverters fail then they should be repaired or replaced. While awaiting repair the bypass will keep your loads powered at full capacity. On top of that, I don't think the 80A output breakers are sufficient because each inverter can peak shave 50A with inverter power from the batteries. Add that to the theorized balanced 37.5A "grid" input, and you are at 87.5A of possible throughput. I am not sure why you are designing to deliver more than the inverters will produce. The generator support function is intended to assist powering loads when the generator is undersized. I define that as the generator ampacity being less than that of the inverter system. The 36kVA generator is greater in ampacity than 4 Sol-Arc 15s. You can turn the generator support function down or off in the Sol-Arc. I would recommend it be set to off for this project. (If there are to be occasional loads that are greater than the inverters can deliver, like a welder or a car charger, with the plan I suggested you have a generator-fed panel that can feed those occasional large loads with the generator running.) But assuming the 80A input/output concept works, other than a panelboard with bolt on breakers, what low-cost load center allows you to fasten four 80A backfed breakers? If this is available, I could use a recommendation. The load centers I am familiar with only have provisions for one fastened backfed breaker. I use to specify bolt-on panels for this but I came to believe this is overkill. QO breakers are held in place by the panel cover that overlaps the breakers. Other breakers are configured so the contact points for the breaker bus are recessed. You need to convince your AHJ that this satisfies the requirement. Part of the discussion should include the point that off-grid systems are specialized and people that do not understand them should not be working on them (or judging them-- is what I tell inexperienced plan-checkers). With respect to the bypass, I would usually use a DPDT switch to accomplish this, Even for 400A bypasses, there seems to be a relatively cost effective option in the Ronk 7416 (which to date I have not used). I get the concept for smaller (<=100A) generators that you could use a generator interlock on an off-the-shelf load center. But they typically only allow a single backfed 2-pole breaker, whereas something like a Square D QO panel with a backfed 150A breaker requires 4 spaces and is incompatible with the interlock device. Since bypass is an emergency condition, I sometimes limit my bypass to 100 amps. If you want full bypass ampacity you can build an interlock to accommodate any size breaker. Here is a photo of a large frame breaker being interlocked. Here is a design sketch exploring multiple interlock options. Always, this is a great discussion and specific recommended equipment is appreciated. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 12:33 AM William Miller wrote: Jason: Sol-Arc does provide generator support. They call it “grid peak load shaving” and it is described on page 22 of the manual. Below is an excerpt. *Error! Filename not specified.* For those that may not be familiar with the concept of generator support, here is how I describe it: The inverter(s) are programmed for the generator capacity. If the generator is powering loads and the demand exceeds that programmed generator capacity, the inverter can start inverting and synchronize output to the generator to add power. This is only possible if battery charge levels are adequate. In the Sol-Arc this function can be adjusted or turned off. Regarding my recommendations on wire sizing: I may have done a poor job describing how I see your project best approached. Below is a diagram that may do a better job. Power flow is from left to right: *Error! Filename not specified.* If you follow what I am laying down, you can see there is no single inverter or inverter wire that can pass or create more than 80 amps. Ergo #4 copper. The money and time you save can easily purchase 8 80 amp breakers. If you look at Diagram 10 in the April 5, 2022 Sol-Arc manual you will see this concept shown, albeit without bypass capabilities and with a separate “LOAD AC Combiner panel.” The separate panel is redundant,-- all of the breakers in the AC combiner panel could be located in the “Main Breaker Panel.” Contemplate this: Just because an inverter can pass-through 200 amps, does not mean it can pass through amps above what the input breaker provides. I hope I have been more clear. I also hope you don’t spend a lot of money on and wrassle wire larger than is needed. Call me if I can help in any way. William PS: Below is a diagram on how to provide bypass. I tried to depict the bypass interlock graphically. The point is you cannot turn *on* the bypass breaker without turning *off* the inverter output breakers. See photos of the actual hardware on the web page linked below. I find bypass very handy because if there is an inverter or battery failure the client can restore power immediately and I can respond at a more convenient time. *Error! Filename not specified.* Wm Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com] *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2024 6:41 PM *To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output #4 wire as the output of each inverter is definitely not adequate, as each inverter can pass through 150A of generator power. In theory it would be spit across all four, but that doesn't matter. It's an open spigot, so at a minimum the output conductors would need to be 150A rated in my opinion. The complication arises when you don't know whether the inverter can supplement this AC output all the way to the 200A load OCPD integral to the inverter. For that reason, I believe you need to size the output conductors to 200A, not 150A in this case. I am trying to find out definitively if generator support mode is supplied by Sol-Ark s. As for paralleling the outputs, landing the outputs on breakers becomes problematic and very expensive. Since the outputs need to be 150A minimum or 200A maximum (as discussed previously), how would you do a 400A panelboard with four of these large breakers in it, keeping in mind that all four need to be fastened as backfed main breakers? I don't see a practical way to make that happen. The same thing applies to combining the generator inputs. You would need 4 x 150A backfed breakers, all fastened to the bus. Is there a cost effective way to accomplish this? Serviceability and bypass are obvious desires, but at what cost? If an inverter needs to be taken out of service, it's fairly easy to remove the supply and load conductors. And this highlights my issue... What if three of four inverters need to be removed from service? Then absolute 150A generator power can flow through the remaining single inverter, meaning the output conductors need to be sized accordingly. Jason On Tue, Mar 26, 2024, 9:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Jason: I am wondering on the advisability of hardwiring the outputs of all four inverters together. If one inverter fails the other three can backfeed into it without any means to disconnect the failed inverter and without over-current protection. Have you considered landing the output of each inverter on a separate, appropriately sized 2 pole breaker in the output load-center? In the same vein, how are you feeding generator input into the inverters? Are these hard-wired paralleled as well? You might consider having the generator feed a dedicated load-center with an appropriately sized breaker to feed each inverter. You protect the conductors as required and you can isolate any inverter for service What size should these breaker be? If your inverter can supply 62.5 AAC, upsizing for continuous duty and to the next higher standard breaker size you get 80 amps. If you use 80 amp breakers into and out of each Sol-Arc you require #4 copper at 75°C. Each inverter and all of the conductors are protected for the max current they will see and you get the combined amperage at your output. There should be no need to run 400 amp wire. BTW, you can easily contrive a bypass system by creating a sliding mechanical interlock. You run an appropriately sized feeder between the generator fed and inverter fed panels. The bypass breaker in the inverter-fed panels is interlocked with the inverter output breakers. The installation might look like this . This is way cheaper and easier than installing an additional 200A, double-throw safety switch. (A home-made interlock may not be listed but what is the worse that will happen if all breakers are on? The inverters will detect backfeed and shut down. No harm will come of it.) Hope this helps. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2024 2:26 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output I am going to have a quad-stack of Sol-Ark 15K for an off-grid 120/240V system with a 150A generator. I know the max real power is 62.5A each inverter including battery and PV. That would be 62.5A x 4 = 250A total. I intend to connect the output of the 4 inverters together with a 5-port Polaris tap, with the output of the Polaris Tap going to a 400A main lug only panelboard. My question revolves around the 200A passthrough capability for the generator, which is 150A max output and would be connected to the Grid input on each inverter. Since each inverter would need to handle the full pass-through current, that would require minimum 150A conductors on the input side of each inverter. I am under the impression that the inverters can supplement the "grid" or generator in this case if the current exceeds the available input. That means the inverter would have 150A of input plus 62.5A of inverter power for a total of 212.5A. But there is a 200A load OCPD, so I could size the load conductors from each inverter for 200A. Obviously the 4 inverters can only pass through 150A from the generator in total, which would probably be split among them, but could go through a single unit if the rest fail. Now, is it possible for each inverter to output 62.5A each PLUS 150A of generator power spread across them for a total of 400A? That is important because I would need to size the combined output conductors for 400A if that is the case. I guess I'm not clear on how Sol-Ark 15K handles grid/generator assist/supplement. It does not seem to be documented clearly. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Mar 27 20:27:40 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2024 20:27:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry. $26. https://www.amazon.com/Eaton-BR-150-200-Amp/dp/B0CQLLMJSR/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.nBkEJ_I45rWhjLizp-sNRe96GAusMPeLrV_hHB_AHqS-PYYUBpCOZW61zhW7w9Nr6aw3jveD5Yy-vhQwntrpy2F7qtyGTPjT-qoOCEUWYciI5TZyidNca2hFolpBVpY5eaf-62n1oO-EhsWNpWyyvQLlZt_de_cSMKtD5sQCqEr2lndRphXKRpNpai1yAp1alK7DIy_lBCipNBFwtVGWVuiFC0ZI_x1zG7lboOVqJU6nFZqgOvMGbx4R_qo53GtrQ5QPRtEL_cEg_rwzK6ERkIyQ6RL_ofS8Dj4f0h2oIyE.Q4CtcWkC33vhyQh4SPTTRHX16WcdaKhfiHVP-oHJtkw&dib_tag=se&hvadid=405275792334&hvdev=t&hvlocphy=9053055&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=1514810600998942803&hvtargid=kwd-847960718866&hydadcr=7662_9903424&keywords=ch+generator+interlock+kit&qid=1711585215&sr=8-1-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&psc=1 This fits a 200A CH panel that could be used as a combiner panel with the interlocked breaker as a bypass. I was commenting generally about interlock kits for existing panels. I can't remember the last time I paid over $70 for any existing panel for an interlock kit when a customer wanted a generator inlet installed (unrelated to solar). Maybe it's different elsewhere, but every panel installed in my area since the 70s has an interlock kit somewhere on the Interwebs for cheap. Jason On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 8:13 PM William Miller wrote: > Jason: > > > > Out of respect for everyone’s time on this forum, I try to do some > research before I post. Please post a link to these $35 interlocks for 5 > breakers (4 inverter breakers against 1 bypass breaker). Otherwise we are > talking apples against oranges. > > > > Thank you. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com] > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 3:52 PM > *To:* Kirk Herander > *Cc:* William Miller; RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output > > > > I have purchased interlocks for older CH panels and others for around $35 > on other sites. If you look around you can get interlocks for all kinds of > legacy panels. > > > > Jason > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 6:47 PM Kirk Herander wrote: > > I agree. That website is way overpriced on their interlocks. I’ve looked > at the one you made from your photos and it looks good. I guess I’ll have > to ask you to make me one someday if I am ever in need!!!! > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 5:33 PM William Miller > wrote: > > Kirk: > > > > Very interesting. Thank you for that link. > > > > Let’s consider the options: > > > > · The interlocks from this supplier can be a bit pricey ($350-450 > for what we are talking about). > > > > · If you want to make your own interlock the materials are less > than $10. The hardest part is cutting clean slots in aluminum plate. I > use a CNC router. Before I acquired the CNC I made a jig for a standard > router. Or drill, jig saw and file. The notches are easy to mock up in > either CAD format (cardboard or computer) and cut with a band or jig saw. > Your first one will take an hour or two to fabricate. > > > > · Compare this to a Ronk 7416 at about $1500 (I find the Ronks to > be a bit wonky to use. Let’s call them Ronky.) Add to that the space > required and the plumbing and wiring for 400 amps (I think Jason can > specify a 200 A switch). Plus if you are not combining your inverters in > an existing load center you need another load center for combining. This > can really add up. > > > > With either interlock option, the inverter combining, the interlocked > bypass and output breakers all fit into one load center. > > > > I hope the time we spent on this discussion helps someone out there. > That’s why we do it. > > > > Wm > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* Kirk Herander [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 12:38 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches; william at millersolar.com > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output > > > > www.interlockkit.com - they stock and custom make interlock bypasses > including multiple breakers. > > > > Square D also makes a 400 A panel which excepts either bolt on or snap on > QO breakers. > > > > > > > > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 3:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Jason: > > > > Replies below. > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com] > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 3:12 AM > *To:* william at millersolar.com > *Cc:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output > > > > William, > > > > Thanks for the information on grid peak shaving. That is what I thought > could be done. The description is a misnomer of sorts (like a lot of things > in Sol-Ark lingo). It's a bit hard to follow and not nearly well > enough documented, particularly with respect to parallel systems. You > are welcome. The Sol-Arc manual is not a great manual in any regards. > > > > I follow what you are saying about using the 80A input breakers. The > problem I have is that you must set the generator kW to 36,000 in the > master inverter, not 9,000W in each inverter. The concept of "underrating" > the input breakers theorizes that each inverter will share the generator > pass-through equally. I do not know that to be the case. And what happens > if the three slave inverters have a fault or are turned off? That would > allow the single master to pass through the full generator supply. > Obviously this trips the 80A input breaker and protects the conductors, but > I feel that is a design deficiency when a single inverter is fully capable > of passing through all 150A. You may be designing for an eventuality > that will never occur: If the inverters fail then they should be repaired > or replaced. While awaiting repair the bypass will keep your loads powered > at full capacity. > > > > On top of that, I don't think the 80A output breakers are sufficient > because each inverter can peak shave 50A with inverter power from the > batteries. Add that to the theorized balanced 37.5A "grid" input, and you > are at 87.5A of possible throughput. I am not sure why you are designing > to deliver more than the inverters will produce. The generator support > function is intended to assist powering loads when the generator is > undersized. I define that as the generator ampacity being less than that > of the inverter system. The 36kVA generator is greater in ampacity than 4 > Sol-Arc 15s. You can turn the generator support function down or off in > the Sol-Arc. I would recommend it be set to off for this project. (If > there are to be occasional loads that are greater than the inverters can > deliver, like a welder or a car charger, with the plan I suggested you have > a generator-fed panel that can feed those occasional large loads with the > generator running.) > > > > But assuming the 80A input/output concept works, other than a panelboard > with bolt on breakers, what low-cost load center allows you to fasten four > 80A backfed breakers? If this is available, I could use a recommendation. > The load centers I am familiar with only have provisions for one fastened > backfed breaker. I use to specify bolt-on panels for this but I came to > believe this is overkill. QO breakers are held in place by the panel cover > that overlaps the breakers. Other breakers are configured so the contact > points for the breaker bus are recessed. You need to convince your AHJ > that this satisfies the requirement. Part of the discussion should include > the point that off-grid systems are specialized and people that do not > understand them should not be working on them (or judging them-- is what I > tell inexperienced plan-checkers). > > > > With respect to the bypass, I would usually use a DPDT switch to > accomplish this, Even for 400A bypasses, there seems to be a relatively > cost effective option in the Ronk 7416 (which to date I have not used). I > get the concept for smaller (<=100A) generators that you could use a > generator interlock on an off-the-shelf load center. But they typically > only allow a single backfed 2-pole breaker, whereas something like a Square > D QO panel with a backfed 150A breaker requires 4 spaces and is > incompatible with the interlock device. Since bypass is an emergency > condition, I sometimes limit my bypass to 100 amps. If you want full > bypass ampacity you can build an interlock to accommodate any size > breaker. Here > > is a photo of a large frame breaker being interlocked. Here > > is a design sketch exploring multiple interlock options. > > > > Always, this is a great discussion and specific recommended equipment is > appreciated. > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 12:33 AM William Miller > wrote: > > Jason: > > > > Sol-Arc does provide generator support. They call it “grid peak load > shaving” and it is described on page 22 of the manual. Below is an excerpt. > > > > *Error! Filename not specified.* > > > > For those that may not be familiar with the concept of generator support, > here is how I describe it: The inverter(s) are programmed for the > generator capacity. If the generator is powering loads and the demand > exceeds that programmed generator capacity, the inverter can start > inverting and synchronize output to the generator to add power. This is > only possible if battery charge levels are adequate. In the Sol-Arc this > function can be adjusted or turned off. > > > > Regarding my recommendations on wire sizing: I may have done a poor job > describing how I see your project best approached. Below is a diagram that > may do a better job. Power flow is from left to right: > > > > *Error! Filename not specified.* > > > > If you follow what I am laying down, you can see there is no single > inverter or inverter wire that can pass or create more than 80 amps. Ergo > #4 copper. The money and time you save can easily purchase 8 80 amp > breakers. If you look at Diagram 10 in the April 5, 2022 Sol-Arc manual > you will see this concept shown, albeit without bypass capabilities and > with a separate “LOAD AC Combiner panel.” The separate panel is > redundant,-- all of the breakers in the AC combiner panel could be located > in the “Main Breaker Panel.” > > > > Contemplate this: Just because an inverter can pass-through 200 amps, > does not mean it can pass through amps above what the input breaker > provides. > > > > I hope I have been more clear. I also hope you don’t spend a lot of money > on and wrassle wire larger than is needed. > > > > Call me if I can help in any way. > > > > William > > > > PS: Below is a diagram on how to provide bypass. I tried to depict the > bypass interlock graphically. The point is you cannot turn *on* the > bypass breaker without turning *off* the inverter output breakers. See > photos of the actual hardware on the web page linked below. I find bypass > very handy because if there is an inverter or battery failure the client > can restore power immediately and I can respond at a more convenient time. > > > > > > *Error! Filename not specified.* > > > > > > Wm > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com] > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2024 6:41 PM > *To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output > > > > #4 wire as the output of each inverter is definitely not adequate, as each > inverter can pass through 150A of generator power. In theory it would be > spit across all four, but that doesn't matter. It's an open spigot, so at a > minimum the output conductors would need to be 150A rated in my opinion. > The complication arises when you don't know whether the inverter can > supplement this AC output all the way to the 200A load OCPD integral to the > inverter. For that reason, I believe you need to size the output conductors > to 200A, not 150A in this case. I am trying to find out definitively if > generator support mode is supplied by Sol-Ark s. > > > > As for paralleling the outputs, landing the outputs on breakers becomes > problematic and very expensive. Since the outputs need to be 150A minimum > or 200A maximum (as discussed previously), how would you do a 400A > panelboard with four of these large breakers in it, keeping in mind that > all four need to be fastened as backfed main breakers? I don't see a > practical way to make that happen. > > > > The same thing applies to combining the generator inputs. You would need 4 > x 150A backfed breakers, all fastened to the bus. Is there a cost effective > way to accomplish this? > > > > Serviceability and bypass are obvious desires, but at what cost? If an > inverter needs to be taken out of service, it's fairly easy to remove the > supply and load conductors. And this highlights my issue... What if three > of four inverters need to be removed from service? Then absolute 150A > generator power can flow through the remaining single inverter, meaning the > output conductors need to be sized accordingly. > > > > Jason > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 26, 2024, 9:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Jason: > > > > I am wondering on the advisability of hardwiring the outputs of all four > inverters together. If one inverter fails the other three can backfeed > into it without any means to disconnect the failed inverter and without > over-current protection. Have you considered landing the output of each > inverter on a separate, appropriately sized 2 pole breaker in the output > load-center? > > > > In the same vein, how are you feeding generator input into the inverters? > Are these hard-wired paralleled as well? You might consider having the > generator feed a dedicated load-center with an appropriately sized breaker > to feed each inverter. You protect the conductors as required and you can > isolate any inverter for service > > > > What size should these breaker be? If your inverter can supply 62.5 AAC, > upsizing for continuous duty and to the next higher standard breaker size > you get 80 amps. If you use 80 amp breakers into and out of each Sol-Arc > you require #4 copper at 75°C. Each inverter and all of the conductors are > protected for the max current they will see and you get the combined > amperage at your output. There should be no need to run 400 amp wire. > > > > BTW, you can easily contrive a bypass system by creating a sliding > mechanical interlock. You run an appropriately sized feeder between the > generator fed and inverter fed panels. The bypass breaker in the > inverter-fed panels is interlocked with the inverter output breakers. The > installation might look like this > . > This is way cheaper and easier than installing an additional 200A, > double-throw safety switch. (A home-made interlock may not be listed but > what is the worse that will happen if all breakers are on? The inverters > will detect backfeed and shut down. No harm will come of it.) > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2024 2:26 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output > > > > I am going to have a quad-stack of Sol-Ark 15K for an off-grid 120/240V > system with a 150A generator. I know the max real power is 62.5A each > inverter including battery and PV. That would be 62.5A x 4 = 250A total. I > intend to connect the output of the 4 inverters together with a 5-port > Polaris tap, with the output of the Polaris Tap going to a 400A main lug > only panelboard. > > > > My question revolves around the 200A passthrough capability for the > generator, which is 150A max output and would be connected to the Grid > input on each inverter. Since each inverter would need to handle the full > pass-through current, that would require minimum 150A conductors on the > input side of each inverter. I am under the impression that the inverters > can supplement the "grid" or generator in this case if the current exceeds > the available input. That means the inverter would have 150A of input plus > 62.5A of inverter power for a total of 212.5A. But there is a 200A load > OCPD, so I could size the load conductors from each inverter for 200A. > > > > Obviously the 4 inverters can only pass through 150A from the generator in > total, which would probably be split among them, but could go through a > single unit if the rest fail. > > > > Now, is it possible for each inverter to output 62.5A each PLUS 150A of > generator power spread across them for a total of 400A? That is important > because I would need to size the combined output conductors for 400A if > that is the case. > > > > I guess I'm not clear on how Sol-Ark 15K handles grid/generator > assist/supplement. It does not seem to be documented clearly. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Mar 27 22:12:45 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2024 19:12:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Good tech support Message-ID: <78a49f7f2ec79c0388915650967e77d3@mail.gmail.com> Friends: Some of you may remember the problems I am having integrating a set of Fortress batteries with an off-grid Sunny Island/Sunny Boy ac-coupled system. If not, here is the case study. The problem has been in abeyance for the last few months because due to short days and cloudy weather. There has not been enough sunshine to cause a recurrence. Now that spring has sprung the problem is back. I did come up with a work-around: I installed a contactor to disconnect the Sunny Boys whenever the SOC gets to 90%. This works but it does waste some solar capability. I have been working with Fortress on the issue. They have been in touch and have been very generous in offering support and spending time trying to find a solution. Most important they have admitted the problem exists. To me this is very refreshing. This makes me want to use more Fortress products and sing their praises. I think my fellow wrenches would want to know about this great support when contemplating which battery products to use, which is the reason for this post. Below is an excerpt from an email received today from Fortress. Hi William, Apologies for the lapse in communication on this subject, we are still actively working on this case to provide you with a solution. We have confirmed here in our Lab that the older firmware does not resolve the issue as you have stated and the engineering and product teams are in discussions to provide a solution to this battery/inverter compatibility issue. We will provide updates on a solution as we receive them. I unfortunately do not have a timeline to provide, but we will have one soon. Thank you for your patience. Warm regards, Galen Gennaria I will update the case study when new developments occur. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Mar 27 22:14:24 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2024 19:14:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Thread relevancy. Message-ID: <862d42c6a99eb627b3fe7ff65de948f7@mail.gmail.com> Jason: I spent a lot of time trying to help you with your design. If you take my advice I think you will save a lot of time and money. From the pushback I gather you are not convinced. So be it--others may benefit from the discussion. I commented on Kirk Herander’s link by thoughtfully evaluating three realistic options for integrating multiple inverters with bypass capabilities. I did this in hopes someone would find the information helpful. I have long ago gone through the thought process and made my choice so I am not doing it for myself. The $26 amazon product will not be useful at all in this case because it interlocks only two breakers. It looks like you are comparing the $26 solution as equivalent to the $350-450 custom fabricated interlock or the home-made option. It is not and is therefore not relevant. Also, it is pretty common knowledge that labor practices at scamazon are atrocious . I encourage my fellow wrenches to find alternative, more ethical vendors. I get that these discussions can branch out, and that can be useful in its own way, but if it does and the poster that branches out does not indicate the subject has shifted, the thread does not track. The reader is left wondering how an off-subject response applies to the question. I’d like to respectfully request that my fellow wrenches read the questions posted here carefully and try to answer the question at hand in order to keep the discussions as useful and succinct as possible. Good sentence and paragraph structure helps readability. I’d also like to point out that anecdotal information that does not have factual foundation is not all that helpful. Respectfully, William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com] *Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 5:28 PM *To:* William Miller *Cc:* Kirk Herander; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output Sorry. $26. https://www.amazon.com/Eaton-BR-150-200-Amp/dp/B0CQLLMJSR/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.nBkEJ_I45rWhjLizp-sNRe96GAusMPeLrV_hHB_AHqS-PYYUBpCOZW61zhW7w9Nr6aw3jveD5Yy-vhQwntrpy2F7qtyGTPjT-qoOCEUWYciI5TZyidNca2hFolpBVpY5eaf-62n1oO-EhsWNpWyyvQLlZt_de_cSMKtD5sQCqEr2lndRphXKRpNpai1yAp1alK7DIy_lBCipNBFwtVGWVuiFC0ZI_x1zG7lboOVqJU6nFZqgOvMGbx4R_qo53GtrQ5QPRtEL_cEg_rwzK6ERkIyQ6RL_ofS8Dj4f0h2oIyE.Q4CtcWkC33vhyQh4SPTTRHX16WcdaKhfiHVP-oHJtkw&dib_tag=se&hvadid=405275792334&hvdev=t&hvlocphy=9053055&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=1514810600998942803&hvtargid=kwd-847960718866&hydadcr=7662_9903424&keywords=ch+generator+interlock+kit&qid=1711585215&sr=8-1-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&psc=1 This fits a 200A CH panel that could be used as a combiner panel with the interlocked breaker as a bypass. I was commenting generally about interlock kits for existing panels. I can't remember the last time I paid over $70 for any existing panel for an interlock kit when a customer wanted a generator inlet installed (unrelated to solar). Maybe it's different elsewhere, but every panel installed in my area since the 70s has an interlock kit somewhere on the Interwebs for cheap. Jason On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 8:13 PM William Miller wrote: Jason: Out of respect for everyone’s time on this forum, I try to do some research before I post. Please post a link to these $35 interlocks for 5 breakers (4 inverter breakers against 1 bypass breaker). Otherwise we are talking apples against oranges. Thank you. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com] *Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 3:52 PM *To:* Kirk Herander *Cc:* William Miller; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output I have purchased interlocks for older CH panels and others for around $35 on other sites. If you look around you can get interlocks for all kinds of legacy panels. Jason On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 6:47 PM Kirk Herander wrote: I agree. That website is way overpriced on their interlocks. I’ve looked at the one you made from your photos and it looks good. I guess I’ll have to ask you to make me one someday if I am ever in need!!!! *Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 5:33 PM William Miller wrote: Kirk: Very interesting. Thank you for that link. Let’s consider the options: · The interlocks from this supplier can be a bit pricey ($350-450 for what we are talking about). · If you want to make your own interlock the materials are less than $10. The hardest part is cutting clean slots in aluminum plate. I use a CNC router. Before I acquired the CNC I made a jig for a standard router. Or drill, jig saw and file. The notches are easy to mock up in either CAD format (cardboard or computer) and cut with a band or jig saw. Your first one will take an hour or two to fabricate. · Compare this to a Ronk 7416 at about $1500 (I find the Ronks to be a bit wonky to use. Let’s call them Ronky.) Add to that the space required and the plumbing and wiring for 400 amps (I think Jason can specify a 200 A switch). Plus if you are not combining your inverters in an existing load center you need another load center for combining. This can really add up. With either interlock option, the inverter combining, the interlocked bypass and output breakers all fit into one load center. I hope the time we spent on this discussion helps someone out there. That’s why we do it. Wm Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* Kirk Herander [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] *Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 12:38 PM *To:* RE-wrenches; william at millersolar.com *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output www.interlockkit.com - they stock and custom make interlock bypasses including multiple breakers. Square D also makes a 400 A panel which excepts either bolt on or snap on QO breakers. *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 3:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Jason: Replies below. Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com] *Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2024 3:12 AM *To:* william at millersolar.com *Cc:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output William, Thanks for the information on grid peak shaving. That is what I thought could be done. The description is a misnomer of sorts (like a lot of things in Sol-Ark lingo). It's a bit hard to follow and not nearly well enough documented, particularly with respect to parallel systems. You are welcome. The Sol-Arc manual is not a great manual in any regards. I follow what you are saying about using the 80A input breakers. The problem I have is that you must set the generator kW to 36,000 in the master inverter, not 9,000W in each inverter. The concept of "underrating" the input breakers theorizes that each inverter will share the generator pass-through equally. I do not know that to be the case. And what happens if the three slave inverters have a fault or are turned off? That would allow the single master to pass through the full generator supply. Obviously this trips the 80A input breaker and protects the conductors, but I feel that is a design deficiency when a single inverter is fully capable of passing through all 150A. You may be designing for an eventuality that will never occur: If the inverters fail then they should be repaired or replaced. While awaiting repair the bypass will keep your loads powered at full capacity. On top of that, I don't think the 80A output breakers are sufficient because each inverter can peak shave 50A with inverter power from the batteries. Add that to the theorized balanced 37.5A "grid" input, and you are at 87.5A of possible throughput. I am not sure why you are designing to deliver more than the inverters will produce. The generator support function is intended to assist powering loads when the generator is undersized. I define that as the generator ampacity being less than that of the inverter system. The 36kVA generator is greater in ampacity than 4 Sol-Arc 15s. You can turn the generator support function down or off in the Sol-Arc. I would recommend it be set to off for this project. (If there are to be occasional loads that are greater than the inverters can deliver, like a welder or a car charger, with the plan I suggested you have a generator-fed panel that can feed those occasional large loads with the generator running.) But assuming the 80A input/output concept works, other than a panelboard with bolt on breakers, what low-cost load center allows you to fasten four 80A backfed breakers? If this is available, I could use a recommendation. The load centers I am familiar with only have provisions for one fastened backfed breaker. I use to specify bolt-on panels for this but I came to believe this is overkill. QO breakers are held in place by the panel cover that overlaps the breakers. Other breakers are configured so the contact points for the breaker bus are recessed. You need to convince your AHJ that this satisfies the requirement. Part of the discussion should include the point that off-grid systems are specialized and people that do not understand them should not be working on them (or judging them-- is what I tell inexperienced plan-checkers). With respect to the bypass, I would usually use a DPDT switch to accomplish this, Even for 400A bypasses, there seems to be a relatively cost effective option in the Ronk 7416 (which to date I have not used). I get the concept for smaller (<=100A) generators that you could use a generator interlock on an off-the-shelf load center. But they typically only allow a single backfed 2-pole breaker, whereas something like a Square D QO panel with a backfed 150A breaker requires 4 spaces and is incompatible with the interlock device. Since bypass is an emergency condition, I sometimes limit my bypass to 100 amps. If you want full bypass ampacity you can build an interlock to accommodate any size breaker. Here is a photo of a large frame breaker being interlocked. Here is a design sketch exploring multiple interlock options. Always, this is a great discussion and specific recommended equipment is appreciated. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 12:33 AM William Miller wrote: Jason: Sol-Arc does provide generator support. They call it “grid peak load shaving” and it is described on page 22 of the manual. Below is an excerpt. *Error! Filename not specified.* For those that may not be familiar with the concept of generator support, here is how I describe it: The inverter(s) are programmed for the generator capacity. If the generator is powering loads and the demand exceeds that programmed generator capacity, the inverter can start inverting and synchronize output to the generator to add power. This is only possible if battery charge levels are adequate. In the Sol-Arc this function can be adjusted or turned off. Regarding my recommendations on wire sizing: I may have done a poor job describing how I see your project best approached. Below is a diagram that may do a better job. Power flow is from left to right: *Error! Filename not specified.* If you follow what I am laying down, you can see there is no single inverter or inverter wire that can pass or create more than 80 amps. Ergo #4 copper. The money and time you save can easily purchase 8 80 amp breakers. If you look at Diagram 10 in the April 5, 2022 Sol-Arc manual you will see this concept shown, albeit without bypass capabilities and with a separate “LOAD AC Combiner panel.” The separate panel is redundant,-- all of the breakers in the AC combiner panel could be located in the “Main Breaker Panel.” Contemplate this: Just because an inverter can pass-through 200 amps, does not mean it can pass through amps above what the input breaker provides. I hope I have been more clear. I also hope you don’t spend a lot of money on and wrassle wire larger than is needed. Call me if I can help in any way. William PS: Below is a diagram on how to provide bypass. I tried to depict the bypass interlock graphically. The point is you cannot turn *on* the bypass breaker without turning *off* the inverter output breakers. See photos of the actual hardware on the web page linked below. I find bypass very handy because if there is an inverter or battery failure the client can restore power immediately and I can respond at a more convenient time. *Error! Filename not specified.* Wm Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* Jason Szumlanski [mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com] *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2024 6:41 PM *To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output #4 wire as the output of each inverter is definitely not adequate, as each inverter can pass through 150A of generator power. In theory it would be spit across all four, but that doesn't matter. It's an open spigot, so at a minimum the output conductors would need to be 150A rated in my opinion. The complication arises when you don't know whether the inverter can supplement this AC output all the way to the 200A load OCPD integral to the inverter. For that reason, I believe you need to size the output conductors to 200A, not 150A in this case. I am trying to find out definitively if generator support mode is supplied by Sol-Ark s. As for paralleling the outputs, landing the outputs on breakers becomes problematic and very expensive. Since the outputs need to be 150A minimum or 200A maximum (as discussed previously), how would you do a 400A panelboard with four of these large breakers in it, keeping in mind that all four need to be fastened as backfed main breakers? I don't see a practical way to make that happen. The same thing applies to combining the generator inputs. You would need 4 x 150A backfed breakers, all fastened to the bus. Is there a cost effective way to accomplish this? Serviceability and bypass are obvious desires, but at what cost? If an inverter needs to be taken out of service, it's fairly easy to remove the supply and load conductors. And this highlights my issue... What if three of four inverters need to be removed from service? Then absolute 150A generator power can flow through the remaining single inverter, meaning the output conductors need to be sized accordingly. Jason On Tue, Mar 26, 2024, 9:15 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Jason: I am wondering on the advisability of hardwiring the outputs of all four inverters together. If one inverter fails the other three can backfeed into it without any means to disconnect the failed inverter and without over-current protection. Have you considered landing the output of each inverter on a separate, appropriately sized 2 pole breaker in the output load-center? In the same vein, how are you feeding generator input into the inverters? Are these hard-wired paralleled as well? You might consider having the generator feed a dedicated load-center with an appropriately sized breaker to feed each inverter. You protect the conductors as required and you can isolate any inverter for service What size should these breaker be? If your inverter can supply 62.5 AAC, upsizing for continuous duty and to the next higher standard breaker size you get 80 amps. If you use 80 amp breakers into and out of each Sol-Arc you require #4 copper at 75°C. Each inverter and all of the conductors are protected for the max current they will see and you get the combined amperage at your output. There should be no need to run 400 amp wire. BTW, you can easily contrive a bypass system by creating a sliding mechanical interlock. You run an appropriately sized feeder between the generator fed and inverter fed panels. The bypass breaker in the inverter-fed panels is interlocked with the inverter output breakers. The installation might look like this . This is way cheaper and easier than installing an additional 200A, double-throw safety switch. (A home-made interlock may not be listed but what is the worse that will happen if all breakers are on? The inverters will detect backfeed and shut down. No harm will come of it.) Hope this helps. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2024 2:26 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Output I am going to have a quad-stack of Sol-Ark 15K for an off-grid 120/240V system with a 150A generator. I know the max real power is 62.5A each inverter including battery and PV. That would be 62.5A x 4 = 250A total. I intend to connect the output of the 4 inverters together with a 5-port Polaris tap, with the output of the Polaris Tap going to a 400A main lug only panelboard. My question revolves around the 200A passthrough capability for the generator, which is 150A max output and would be connected to the Grid input on each inverter. Since each inverter would need to handle the full pass-through current, that would require minimum 150A conductors on the input side of each inverter. I am under the impression that the inverters can supplement the "grid" or generator in this case if the current exceeds the available input. That means the inverter would have 150A of input plus 62.5A of inverter power for a total of 212.5A. But there is a 200A load OCPD, so I could size the load conductors from each inverter for 200A. Obviously the 4 inverters can only pass through 150A from the generator in total, which would probably be split among them, but could go through a single unit if the rest fail. Now, is it possible for each inverter to output 62.5A each PLUS 150A of generator power spread across them for a total of 400A? That is important because I would need to size the combined output conductors for 400A if that is the case. I guess I'm not clear on how Sol-Ark 15K handles grid/generator assist/supplement. It does not seem to be documented clearly. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Mar 27 22:39:52 2024 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2024 19:39:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Good tech support In-Reply-To: <78a49f7f2ec79c0388915650967e77d3@mail.gmail.com> References: <78a49f7f2ec79c0388915650967e77d3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Do you have the 42-48 or the newer 55-48, l have used both in off grid AC Coupled systems with no issues, inverters freq shift and self power down. I did eliminate the battery temp sensor and use a resistor in its place to stabilize the charge rate. Can you again call out the issue you are having with the inverters as this might help answer or at least even resemble issue we might also be seeing. Fun times On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 7:14 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > > > Some of you may remember the problems I am having integrating a set of > Fortress batteries with an off-grid Sunny Island/Sunny Boy ac-coupled > system. If not, here > > is the case study. > > > > The problem has been in abeyance for the last few months because due to > short days and cloudy weather. There has not been enough sunshine to cause > a recurrence. Now that spring has sprung the problem is back. > > > > I did come up with a work-around: I installed a contactor to disconnect > the Sunny Boys whenever the SOC gets to 90%. This works but it does waste > some solar capability. > > > > I have been working with Fortress on the issue. They have been in touch > and have been very generous in offering support and spending time trying to > find a solution. Most important they have admitted the problem exists. > > > > To me this is very refreshing. This makes me want to use more Fortress > products and sing their praises. I think my fellow wrenches would want to > know about this great support when contemplating which battery products to > use, which is the reason for this post. > > > > Below is an excerpt from an email received today from Fortress. > > > > Hi William, > > > > Apologies for the lapse in communication on this subject, we are still > actively working on this case to provide you with a solution. > > > > We have confirmed here in our Lab that the older firmware does not resolve > the issue as you have stated and the engineering and product teams are in > discussions to provide a solution to this battery/inverter compatibility > issue. We will provide updates on a solution as we receive them. I > unfortunately do not have a timeline to provide, but we will have one soon. > > > > Thank you for your patience. > > > > Warm regards, > > Galen Gennaria > > > > I will update the case study when new developments occur. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Mar 28 00:30:01 2024 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2024 00:30:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Good tech support In-Reply-To: <78a49f7f2ec79c0388915650967e77d3@mail.gmail.com> References: <78a49f7f2ec79c0388915650967e77d3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: William, I am sure that I am not the only one on the list that appreciates your willingness to share your experience, well thought out analysis, and solutions. As always, thank you for your insights and ideas. And thanks for taking the time to highlight your positive interactions with Fortress. I too have had generally good experience with Fortress's support, which is no small part of why I've chosen to install many eVault Max cabinets, particularly for off grid systems. This is also, in part, why I chose to try their Envy inverter in my off-grid house that currently has an older 1300 ah lead acid battery bank (whenever I have the opportunity to try new to me equipment in my own place, I do so). I have used Sol-Ark in many installs, and have been generally pleased with them, but am growing weary of firmware updates that cause problems and errors between disparate brands. This issue has only grown more critical and troublesome with the advent of closed loop communications between hybrid inverters and Lithium BMSs. So I was anxious to try the Envy, which is promoted as working with many Lithium batteries in closed loop, as well as Lead acid, both on and off grid. I should have done more research before buying it for use in this setting. In short, in my opinion, the Envy is woefully inadequate for use with lead acid batteries. The programming and capabilities for use with a Lead Acid battery bank are on the verge of useless. And regrettably, in trying to understand how to set it up and dealing with what turned out to be serious shortcomings, talking with their support for many hours over several calls about this, was even more abysmal. I was basically told that I should not use the Envy with L-A batteries, it wasn't designed for such use, and if i did so, that was at my own peril (not their exact words). This inspite of their sales team and advertising saying otherwise. It was one of the worst support interactions I've had since talking with Xantrex (about issues with their TM500 meter interfering with the C40's functionality) 20 years ago. This was not the experience I was hoping for. I don't typically bad mouth a company here, especially one that I've enjoyed good results with. My preference is to highlight companies/equipment that have worked well for me. However, I have made multiple attempts to email their support team, their sales team and their higher level tech, with absolutely no response. Crickets. Now I am frustrated, hence this missive. I will be replacing the Envy with another more appropriately designed inverter. Hopefully, I will be able to do something useful with it. Howie Michaelson On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 10:14 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > > > Some of you may remember the problems I am having integrating a set of > Fortress batteries with an off-grid Sunny Island/Sunny Boy ac-coupled > system. If not, here > > is the case study. > > > > The problem has been in abeyance for the last few months because due to > short days and cloudy weather. There has not been enough sunshine to cause > a recurrence. Now that spring has sprung the problem is back. > > > > I did come up with a work-around: I installed a contactor to disconnect > the Sunny Boys whenever the SOC gets to 90%. This works but it does waste > some solar capability. > > > > I have been working with Fortress on the issue. They have been in touch > and have been very generous in offering support and spending time trying to > find a solution. Most important they have admitted the problem exists. > > > > To me this is very refreshing. This makes me want to use more Fortress > products and sing their praises. I think my fellow wrenches would want to > know about this great support when contemplating which battery products to > use, which is the reason for this post. > > > > Below is an excerpt from an email received today from Fortress. > > > > Hi William, > > > > Apologies for the lapse in communication on this subject, we are still > actively working on this case to provide you with a solution. > > > > We have confirmed here in our Lab that the older firmware does not resolve > the issue as you have stated and the engineering and product teams are in > discussions to provide a solution to this battery/inverter compatibility > issue. We will provide updates on a solution as we receive them. I > unfortunately do not have a timeline to provide, but we will have one soon. > > > > Thank you for your patience. > > > > Warm regards, > > Galen Gennaria > > > > I will update the case study when new developments occur. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Thu Mar 28 08:44:12 2024 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2024 08:44:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Good tech support In-Reply-To: References: <78a49f7f2ec79c0388915650967e77d3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Howie, I might be interested in taking the Envy off your hands. I haven't made the move from Outback equipment but have joined the LFP world. I also like to test new products on my own off grid system and have 3 e-Flex batteries. Contact me off list if interested. John Blittersdorf john.blittersdorf at gmail.co On Thu, Mar 28, 2024 at 12:30 AM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > William, > > I am sure that I am not the only one on the list that appreciates your > willingness to share your experience, well thought out analysis, and > solutions. As always, thank you for your insights and ideas. And thanks > for taking the time to highlight your positive interactions with Fortress. > > I too have had generally good experience with Fortress's support, which is > no small part of why I've chosen to install many eVault Max cabinets, > particularly for off grid systems. This is also, in part, why I chose to > try their Envy inverter in my off-grid house that currently has an older > 1300 ah lead acid battery bank (whenever I have the opportunity to try new > to me equipment in my own place, I do so). > > I have used Sol-Ark in many installs, and have been generally pleased with > them, but am growing weary of firmware updates that cause problems and > errors between disparate brands. This issue has only grown more critical > and troublesome with the advent of closed loop communications between > hybrid inverters and Lithium BMSs. > > So I was anxious to try the Envy, which is promoted as working with many > Lithium batteries in closed loop, as well as Lead acid, both on and off > grid. I should have done more research before buying it for use in this > setting. > > In short, in my opinion, the Envy is woefully inadequate for use with > lead acid batteries. The programming and capabilities for use with a Lead > Acid battery bank are on the verge of useless. And regrettably, in trying > to understand how to set it up and dealing with what turned out to be > serious shortcomings, talking with their support for many hours over > several calls about this, was even more abysmal. I was basically told > that I should not use the Envy with L-A batteries, it wasn't designed for > such use, and if i did so, that was at my own peril (not their exact > words). This inspite of their sales team and advertising saying otherwise. > It was one of the worst support interactions I've had since talking with > Xantrex (about issues with their TM500 meter interfering with the C40's > functionality) 20 years ago. This was not the experience I was hoping for. > > I don't typically bad mouth a company here, especially one that I've > enjoyed good results with. My preference is to highlight > companies/equipment that have worked well for me. However, I have made > multiple attempts to email their support team, their sales team and their > higher level tech, with absolutely no response. Crickets. Now I am > frustrated, hence this missive. > > I will be replacing the Envy with another more appropriately designed > inverter. Hopefully, I will be able to do something useful with it. > > Howie Michaelson > > > On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 10:14 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Friends: >> >> >> >> Some of you may remember the problems I am having integrating a set of >> Fortress batteries with an off-grid Sunny Island/Sunny Boy ac-coupled >> system. If not, here >> >> is the case study. >> >> >> >> The problem has been in abeyance for the last few months because due to >> short days and cloudy weather. There has not been enough sunshine to cause >> a recurrence. Now that spring has sprung the problem is back. >> >> >> >> I did come up with a work-around: I installed a contactor to disconnect >> the Sunny Boys whenever the SOC gets to 90%. This works but it does waste >> some solar capability. >> >> >> >> I have been working with Fortress on the issue. They have been in touch >> and have been very generous in offering support and spending time trying to >> find a solution. Most important they have admitted the problem exists. >> >> >> >> To me this is very refreshing. This makes me want to use more Fortress >> products and sing their praises. I think my fellow wrenches would want to >> know about this great support when contemplating which battery products to >> use, which is the reason for this post. >> >> >> >> Below is an excerpt from an email received today from Fortress. >> >> >> >> Hi William, >> >> >> >> Apologies for the lapse in communication on this subject, we are still >> actively working on this case to provide you with a solution. >> >> >> >> We have confirmed here in our Lab that the older firmware does not >> resolve the issue as you have stated and the engineering and product teams >> are in discussions to provide a solution to this battery/inverter >> compatibility issue. We will provide updates on a solution as we receive >> them. I unfortunately do not have a timeline to provide, but we will have >> one soon. >> >> >> >> Thank you for your patience. >> >> >> >> Warm regards, >> >> Galen Gennaria >> >> >> >> I will update the case study when new developments occur. >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Mar 28 09:54:16 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2024 07:54:16 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Good tech support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8C322762-162C-4F2E-95B6-46B6B24799C1@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Mar 28 13:00:00 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2024 10:00:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Minimum bus size, new requirements Message-ID: <7386034876377203866a4508313276b2@mail.gmail.com> Friends: A local building official recently wrote this: This is to comply with the new codes (California Energy Code and the Nation Electric Code) that require this minimum buss rating regardless of the service size or main size. The new code allegedly requires a minimum bus rating of 225A in all new services of 200A rating or less. Do any of you know what new code this might be? Thanks in advance for your time. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Thu Mar 28 14:22:52 2024 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2024 18:22:52 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Minimum bus size, new requirements In-Reply-To: <7386034876377203866a4508313276b2@mail.gmail.com> References: <7386034876377203866a4508313276b2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi William, 200 Amp service per CA Energy Code - https://www.energy.ca.gov/sites/default/files/2022-08/2022_Residential_Mandatory_Measures_Summary_ADA.pdf It may have been modified since. Best regards, Lloyd Lloyd Hoffstatter, M.S. Applied Solar Energy Inaugural NABCEP Cetrified PV Installer Emeritus Director, Sunstruck Consulting lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com 845-657-8132 (office) 914-844-3404 (cell) ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of William Miller via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2024 1:00 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: William Miller Subject: [RE-wrenches] Minimum bus size, new requirements Friends: A local building official recently wrote this: This is to comply with the new codes (California Energy Code and the Nation Electric Code) that require this minimum buss rating regardless of the service size or main size. The new code allegedly requires a minimum bus rating of 225A in all new services of 200A rating or less. Do any of you know what new code this might be? Thanks in advance for your time. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Thu Mar 28 14:33:35 2024 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2024 18:33:35 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Minimum bus size, new requirements In-Reply-To: <7386034876377203866a4508313276b2@mail.gmail.com> References: <7386034876377203866a4508313276b2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: William, Here is the CA Energy Code with the upsized busbar requirements under solar / ess readiness: https://title24energyreports.com/articles/basic-facts-changes-2022-energy-code.php Best regard Title 24: 2022 Energy Code - Basic Facts | CompuCalc Summary of changes and updates in the 2022 California Energy Code title24energyreports.com Lloyd Hoffstatter, M.S. Applied Solar Energy Inaugural NABCEP Cetrified PV Installer Emeritus Director, Sunstruck Consulting lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com 845-657-8132 (office) 914-844-3404 (cell) ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of William Miller via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2024 1:00 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: William Miller Subject: [RE-wrenches] Minimum bus size, new requirements Friends: A local building official recently wrote this: This is to comply with the new codes (California Energy Code and the Nation Electric Code) that require this minimum buss rating regardless of the service size or main size. The new code allegedly requires a minimum bus rating of 225A in all new services of 200A rating or less. Do any of you know what new code this might be? Thanks in advance for your time. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com Thu Mar 28 16:26:49 2024 From: jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com (Jeremy Coxon) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2024 16:26:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AEE closing down operations Message-ID: <16FC2021-82F9-4888-99BC-A55579ADF32A@sunwindpowerinc.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 8c86e00d-c831-fc63-debe-484f5b9af308.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 69898 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Mar 28 16:36:26 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2024 14:36:26 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Minimum bus size, new requirements In-Reply-To: References: <7386034876377203866a4508313276b2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <95760c43-7617-45d3-befd-e50a6002d672@solarray.com> So to be clear, the inspector is wrong:  it is NOT an NEC requirement.  It is only a California requirement.   NEC 2023 only requires a 100 A main load center and disconnect per 225.39(C). Further, 710.15(A) allows the inverter and feeder to the Load center to be even less in off grid applications.   The rest of us in the other 49 states are Not required to comply with the 200 A requirement. Good Luck out there. Thank you, Ray Walters Remote Solar On 3/28/2024 12:33 PM, Lloyd Hoffstatter via RE-wrenches wrote: > William, > > Here is the CA Energy Code with the upsized busbar requirements under > solar / ess readiness: > > https://title24energyreports.com/articles/basic-facts-changes-2022-energy-code.php > > Best regard > Title 24: 2022 Energy Code - Basic Facts | CompuCalc > > Summary of changes and updates in the 2022 California Energy Code > title24energyreports.com > > > > Lloyd Hoffstatter, M.S. Applied Solar Energy > > Inaugural NABCEP Cetrified PV Installer Emeritus > > Director, Sunstruck Consulting > > lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com > > 845-657-8132 (office) > > 914-844-3404 (cell) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on > behalf of William Miller via RE-wrenches > > *Sent:* Thursday, March 28, 2024 1:00 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* William Miller > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Minimum bus size, new requirements > > Friends: > > A local building official recently wrote this: > > This is to comply with the new codes (California Energy Code and the > Nation Electric Code) that require this minimum buss rating regardless > of the service size or main size. > > The new code allegedly requires a minimum bus rating of 225A in all > new services of 200A rating or less. > > Do any of you know what new code this might be? > > Thanks in advance for your time. > > William > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rich at solartechvt.com Thu Mar 28 16:46:12 2024 From: rich at solartechvt.com (Richard Nicol) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2024 16:46:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AEE closing down operations In-Reply-To: <16FC2021-82F9-4888-99BC-A55579ADF32A@sunwindpowerinc.com> References: <16FC2021-82F9-4888-99BC-A55579ADF32A@sunwindpowerinc.com> Message-ID: <83DE8575-5CBB-417B-ADDF-F16FEEAA6B32@solartechvt.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Thu Mar 28 17:14:18 2024 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2024 15:14:18 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] eGauge login info for Blue Planet owners Message-ID: Hi, Mechanics~ Blue Planet gave us a whole three days notice before shutting down their customer facing web monitor. The handy BPE_eGauge Guide .pdf file to help with our transition failed to include the username & password that end users need in order to get their data direct from eGauge. If any of the Wrenchies need this for their installed customer base, contact me off list. The Wrench List is the Bomb! Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Mar 28 17:55:01 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2024 14:55:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AEE closing down operations In-Reply-To: <83DE8575-5CBB-417B-ADDF-F16FEEAA6B32@solartechvt.com> References: <16FC2021-82F9-4888-99BC-A55579ADF32A@sunwindpowerinc.com> <83DE8575-5CBB-417B-ADDF-F16FEEAA6B32@solartechvt.com> Message-ID: <964bdb57478a830bc1fde765f4f2ea04@sti.net> For me, it was changing policy to not taking my clients credit card with pre-approval and not taking their check after it cleared their bank. Too many choices out there. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-03-28 1:46 pm, Richard Nicol via RE-wrenches wrote: > Probably too many of us stopped using them when they partnered with Sun > Run. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 28, 2024, at 4:27 PM, Jeremy Coxon via RE-wrenches >> wrote: > >> I'm not going to editorialize about this, other than to say - what a >> damn shame to get this note in my inbox today. 19 years I've been >> buying from them and I'm sure some you on this list for much longer. >> Talk about losing sight of the mission. >> >> <8c86e00d-c831-fc63-debe-484f5b9af308.jpg> >> >> Dear Valued Customer, >> >> We hope this message finds you well. It is with a heavy heart that we >> reach out to share an important update regarding the future of AEE >> Solar. After careful consideration, we've made the difficult decision >> to wind down AEE's operations over the next 36 days, with a tentative >> closing date of May 3rd, 2024. Please be aware that this date may be >> subject to change, and we will keep you informed of any updates. >> >> As a result, we are offering attractive clearance pricing on the >> majority of our inventory over the next month, which we encourage you >> to take advantage of. >> >> We understand that this news might come as a surprise. Our Customer >> Support Team and Territory Sales Managers are available to address any >> questions or concerns you may have during this time. We are committed >> to transparency and will keep you informed throughout the process, >> including confirmation of the final closing date, well in advance. >> >> If you purchase SnapNrack products from AEE, please reach out to your >> Territory Sales Manager to explore opportunities to purchase directly >> from SnapNrack going forward. >> >> We want to express our sincere gratitude for your ongoing support. It >> has been a privilege serving you, and we wish you continued success. >> We look forward to serving you during this wind-down period. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> The AEE Solar Team >> >> Jeremy Coxon NABCEP >> Certified MWBE >> Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Mar 28 19:32:42 2024 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2024 23:32:42 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AEE closing down operations In-Reply-To: <16FC2021-82F9-4888-99BC-A55579ADF32A@sunwindpowerinc.com> References: <16FC2021-82F9-4888-99BC-A55579ADF32A@sunwindpowerinc.com> Message-ID: I am going to miss AEE! first Brad retires and now shutdown. 36 years buying from AEE. Lots of friendships over the years; Brad Bassett, Glenn Hall, Leslie Cannon, Eric Carpenter & folks I cannot recall names of at the moment from further back. Man, the times they are a changing. I guess the question is: WESCO or ? Where are people gravitating to? I get a minimum of 2-3 wholesale contacts per week. Who is carrying Snap’nRack besides AEE? Dana Orzel – 2087217003 – 76dana58 at gmail.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jeremy Coxon via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2024 2:27 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: Jeremy Coxon Subject: [RE-wrenches] AEE closing down operations I’m not going to editorialize about this, other than to say - what a damn shame to get this note in my inbox today. 19 years I’ve been buying from them and I’m sure some you on this list for much longer. Talk about losing sight of the mission. [cid:81A92772-990C-4ED4-9D49-44CE7279AD38] Dear Valued Customer, We hope this message finds you well. It is with a heavy heart that we reach out to share an important update regarding the future of AEE Solar. After careful consideration, we've made the difficult decision to wind down AEE’s operations over the next 36 days, with a tentative closing date of May 3rd, 2024. Please be aware that this date may be subject to change, and we will keep you informed of any updates. As a result, we are offering attractive clearance pricing on the majority of our inventory over the next month, which we encourage you to take advantage of. We understand that this news might come as a surprise. Our Customer Support Team and Territory Sales Managers are available to address any questions or concerns you may have during this time. We are committed to transparency and will keep you informed throughout the process, including confirmation of the final closing date, well in advance. If you purchase SnapNrack products from AEE, please reach out to your Territory Sales Manager to explore opportunities to purchase directly from SnapNrack going forward. We want to express our sincere gratitude for your ongoing support. It has been a privilege serving you, and we wish you continued success. We look forward to serving you during this wind-down period. Sincerely, The AEE Solar Team Jeremy Coxon NABCEP Certified MWBE Sent from my iPhone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 8c86e00d-c831-fc63-debe-484f5b9af308.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 69898 bytes Desc: 8c86e00d-c831-fc63-debe-484f5b9af308.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From william at millersolar.com Fri Mar 29 01:10:43 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2024 22:10:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Minimum bus size, new requirements In-Reply-To: References: <7386034876377203866a4508313276b2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4735f1c15d21c9e2cab747400006c8f7@mail.gmail.com> Lloyd: Thank you so much for forwarding these links. This should have been on my radar. You saved me some time searching this out. For those who may not be totally up-to-speed on these regulations, they make some interesting reading. Some will undoubtedly call them burdensome, but it in my opinion many of the concepts are well-founded. For example, I have been known to whine when roof area is not available for solar panels. This is addressed. I have also been pretty pathetic when breaker space is not available for back-feed, This too is addressed. Segregated, essential load panel? It’s in there. There are a lot of provisions that will make it easier to do our jobs. Reading through this mandate may raise hackles for some who do not like to be told how to do their jobs. We all know it is difficult to adapt to new regulations. Having just skimmed them, I like what is being laid down. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* Lloyd Hoffstatter [mailto:lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com] *Sent:* Thursday, March 28, 2024 11:34 AM *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Minimum bus size, new requirements William, Here is the CA Energy Code with the upsized busbar requirements under solar / ess readiness: https://title24energyreports.com/articles/basic-facts-changes-2022-energy-code.php Best regard Title 24: 2022 Energy Code - Basic Facts | CompuCalc Summary of changes and updates in the 2022 California Energy Code title24energyreports.com Lloyd Hoffstatter, M.S. Applied Solar Energy Inaugural NABCEP Cetrified PV Installer Emeritus Director, Sunstruck Consulting lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com 845-657-8132 (office) 914-844-3404 (cell) ------------------------------ *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf of William Miller via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Thursday, March 28, 2024 1:00 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* William Miller *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Minimum bus size, new requirements Friends: A local building official recently wrote this: This is to comply with the new codes (California Energy Code and the Nation Electric Code) that require this minimum buss rating regardless of the service size or main size. The new code allegedly requires a minimum bus rating of 225A in all new services of 200A rating or less. Do any of you know what new code this might be? Thanks in advance for your time. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Sat Mar 30 14:56:27 2024 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2024 08:56:27 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Plaques Message-ID: Aloha Wrenches, Anyone out there making their own engraved plaques and labels? If so, is it worth it and what machine are you using? Thanks for your time and insight, it is always appreciated. Aloha, Lou Russo Owner lou at spreesolarsystems.com 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Sat Mar 30 16:33:47 2024 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2024 20:33:47 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Plaques In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <67EC1A8D-D336-4351-9629-87547A42B663@solarwork.com> Good question I’m curious on this also, I have to say the ones that I’ve had made are not inexpensive Dana Orzel C: 208.721.7003 E- dana at solarwork.com On Mar 30, 2024, at 12:58 PM, Lou Russo via RE-wrenches wrote:  Aloha Wrenches, Anyone out there making their own engraved plaques and labels? If so, is it worth it and what machine are you using? Thanks for your time and insight, it is always appreciated. Aloha, Lou Russo Owner lou at spreesolarsystems.com 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Sat Mar 30 16:50:20 2024 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2024 16:50:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Plaques In-Reply-To: <67EC1A8D-D336-4351-9629-87547A42B663@solarwork.com> References: <67EC1A8D-D336-4351-9629-87547A42B663@solarwork.com> Message-ID: I use a thermal printer with labels that are UV rated. (duralabel). The problem with engraved is if you make a mistake and have to have it redone.  The labels from my printer are best placed out of the sun although UV rated.  I do see fading after 8 or 10 years. On 3/30/2024 4:33 PM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches wrote: > Good question I’m curious on this also, I have to say the ones that > I’ve had made are not inexpensive > Dana Orzel > C: 208.721.7003 > E- dana at solarwork.com > >> On Mar 30, 2024, at 12:58 PM, Lou Russo via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >>  >> Aloha Wrenches, >> >> Anyone out there making their own engraved plaques and labels? >> If so, is it worth it and what machine are you using? >> Thanks for your time and insight, it is always appreciated. >> >> Aloha, >> >> Lou Russo >> Owner >> lou at spreesolarsystems.com >> 808 345 6762 >> Spree Solar Systems LLC >> CT-34322 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel           ENTECH Engineering Inc.    PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                   401-477-5773 EE Logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/vcard Size: 203 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Mar 30 17:26:50 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2024 14:26:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Plaques In-Reply-To: References: <67EC1A8D-D336-4351-9629-87547A42B663@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Lou: I tried this with my little, cheap shapeoko CNC router. It can be done but it kind of became more of a hobby than I wanted. Your bed has to be dead nuts flat, much more so than through-cutting parts (like interlock plates, for example). Holding the material tight to the bed really requires a vacuum bed. You need the software and a spare computer you don’t mind getting dusty. I spoiled three for every one successfully completed. Maybe I gave up too soon. Maybe I had the wrong approach. I suppose you-tube might give you some insight. Have you checked there? Sorry my experience is so limited. PV Labels is so darn quick and good and reasonable I could not justify carrying on with making my own. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Sat, Mar 30, 2024 at 1:52 PM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I use a thermal printer with labels that are UV rated. (duralabel). The > problem with engraved is if you make a mistake and have to have it redone. > The labels from my printer are best placed out of the sun although UV > rated. I do see fading after 8 or 10 years. > On 3/30/2024 4:33 PM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Good question I’m curious on this also, I have to say the ones that I’ve > had made are not inexpensive > Dana Orzel > C: 208.721.7003 > E- dana at solarwork.com > > On Mar 30, 2024, at 12:58 PM, Lou Russo via RE-wrenches > > wrote: > >  > Aloha Wrenches, > > Anyone out there making their own engraved plaques and labels? > If so, is it worth it and what machine are you using? > Thanks for your time and insight, it is always appreciated. > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > Owner > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > 808 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > Christopher Warfel > ENTECH Engineering Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-477-5773 > [image: EE Logo] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Mar 30 19:21:16 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2024 16:21:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Plaques In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Rarely need them for my business. When I do, I just print and cover with UV tape. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-03-30 11:56 am, Lou Russo via RE-wrenches wrote: > Aloha Wrenches, > > Anyone out there making their own engraved plaques and labels? > If so, is it worth it and what machine are you using? > Thanks for your time and insight, it is always appreciated. > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > Owner > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > 808 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ac9c2f54.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 252386 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Mar 30 19:26:21 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2024 17:26:21 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Plaques In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I once got a trophy company to engrave some plaques and it was stupid expensive. ($50/ plaque)  Then I started using PV Labels.com, and their pricing is quite reasonable (under $10/ plaque).  Turn around time has always been quick too.  I'd have to be printing a lot of plaques for doing it in house to pencil out. I'm not sure if it ever would, considering that you still have to pay yourself or someone else to operate the engraver, and the blank plaques probably cost a bit too. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 3/30/2024 12:56 PM, Lou Russo via RE-wrenches wrote: > Aloha Wrenches, > > Anyone out there making their own engraved plaques and labels? > If so, is it worth it and what machine are you using? > Thanks for your time and insight, it is always appreciated. > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > Owner > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > 808 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Sat Mar 30 20:51:00 2024 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2024 17:51:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Plaques In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Generic stickers are easily gotten but site-specific placards are often required. I recommend Tony ::: Tony Nguyen We send him a PDF doct and the size/font requirements. within a couple days I receive a perfect red placard with white lettering, 3M sticky on the back, at very reasonable pricing. Tony Nguyen is the man. David Quattro CA License # 954020. C-10, C-46 ph (415) 312-2661 www.quattrosolar.com On Sat, Mar 30, 2024 at 4:26 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I once got a trophy company to engrave some plaques and it was stupid > expensive. ($50/ plaque) Then I started using PV Labels.com, and their > pricing is quite reasonable (under $10/ plaque). Turn around time has > always been quick too. I'd have to be printing a lot of plaques for doing > it in house to pencil out. I'm not sure if it ever would, considering that > you still have to pay yourself or someone else to operate the engraver, and > the blank plaques probably cost a bit too. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > On 3/30/2024 12:56 PM, Lou Russo via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Aloha Wrenches, > > Anyone out there making their own engraved plaques and labels? > If so, is it worth it and what machine are you using? > Thanks for your time and insight, it is always appreciated. > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > Owner > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > 808 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirpal at oregonsolarworks.com Sat Mar 30 23:47:00 2024 From: kirpal at oregonsolarworks.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2024 20:47:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Plaques In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Lou and all. We dove all in and got a Vision Engraving machine. They offer several models and the most basic version works just fine. It was a big investment but we can make our own placatds in the same day. We have a dedicated cheap laptop and a vacuum attachment they sell which keeps the work area clean. There was a learning curve but we won after a bit. Its really nice to have and to have the flexibility makes that an aspect of job management much less complicated. My guess is that it will take 3-4 years to pay for itself. We like having it and my only regret us that we didnt get one sooner. On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 11:57 AM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Aloha Wrenches, > > Anyone out there making their own engraved plaques and labels? > If so, is it worth it and what machine are you using? > Thanks for your time and insight, it is always appreciated. > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > Owner > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > 808 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Sun Mar 31 04:13:55 2024 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2024 22:13:55 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Plaques In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Aloha Wrenches, Kirpal, I was looking at the Vision product line. What model did you purchase? We work out in the boonies and driving 35 minutes to town to pick up a $75 directory from the trophy shop is getting old. On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 5:48 PM Kirpal Khalsa via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Lou and all. > We dove all in and got a Vision Engraving machine. They offer several > models and the most basic version works just fine. It was a big investment > but we can make our own placatds in the same day. > We have a dedicated cheap laptop and a vacuum attachment they sell which > keeps the work area clean. There was a learning curve but we won after a > bit. > Its really nice to have and to have the flexibility makes that an aspect > of job management much less complicated. My guess is that it will take 3-4 > years to pay for itself. > We like having it and my only regret us that we didnt get one sooner. > > On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 11:57 AM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Aloha Wrenches, >> >> Anyone out there making their own engraved plaques and labels? >> If so, is it worth it and what machine are you using? >> Thanks for your time and insight, it is always appreciated. >> >> Aloha, >> >> Lou Russo >> Owner >> lou at spreesolarsystems.com >> 808 345 6762 >> Spree Solar Systems LLC >> CT-34322 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirpal at oregonsolarworks.com Sun Mar 31 07:57:15 2024 From: kirpal at oregonsolarworks.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2024 04:57:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Plaques In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Lou. . We got the Express engraver. All in it was around 5 grand. We were spending over $ 1500 per year ar our local trophy engraving store plus coordinating and they would go on vacation right when we needed placards. For us it made sense to bring this process in house. On Sun, Mar 31, 2024, 1:14 AM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Aloha Wrenches, > > Kirpal, I was looking at the Vision product line. What model did you > purchase? > > We work out in the boonies and driving 35 minutes to town to pick up a $75 > directory from the trophy shop is getting old. > > On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 5:48 PM Kirpal Khalsa via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi Lou and all. >> We dove all in and got a Vision Engraving machine. They offer several >> models and the most basic version works just fine. It was a big investment >> but we can make our own placatds in the same day. >> We have a dedicated cheap laptop and a vacuum attachment they sell which >> keeps the work area clean. There was a learning curve but we won after a >> bit. >> Its really nice to have and to have the flexibility makes that an aspect >> of job management much less complicated. My guess is that it will take 3-4 >> years to pay for itself. >> We like having it and my only regret us that we didnt get one sooner. >> >> On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 11:57 AM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Aloha Wrenches, >>> >>> Anyone out there making their own engraved plaques and labels? >>> If so, is it worth it and what machine are you using? >>> Thanks for your time and insight, it is always appreciated. >>> >>> Aloha, >>> >>> Lou Russo >>> Owner >>> lou at spreesolarsystems.com >>> 808 345 6762 >>> Spree Solar Systems LLC >>> CT-34322 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Sun Mar 31 09:42:31 2024 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2024 09:42:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Plaques In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hellermann Tyton seems to be big into labels. They also sell a thermal printer which is branded as theirs, but it can also be found at www.creativesafetysupply.com, branded as a Labeltac 4.0, at half the price of Hellerman. $699 at present vs. the $1,500 Hellerman. That's where I bought mine about 10 years ago. I used their MS Word label software to customize templates. They also sell blank label rolls including white on red reflective tape, UV resistant. I only used Hellerman generic write-on labels once. They were terrible, indelible pen bleached out within a year. On Sun, Mar 31, 2024 at 7:58 AM Kirpal Khalsa via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Lou. . > We got the Express engraver. All in it was around 5 grand. > We were spending over $ 1500 per year ar our local trophy engraving store > plus coordinating and they would go on vacation right when we needed > placards. For us it made sense to bring this process in house. > > On Sun, Mar 31, 2024, 1:14 AM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Aloha Wrenches, >> >> Kirpal, I was looking at the Vision product line. What model did you >> purchase? >> >> We work out in the boonies and driving 35 minutes to town to pick up a >> $75 directory from the trophy shop is getting old. >> >> On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 5:48 PM Kirpal Khalsa via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi Lou and all. >>> We dove all in and got a Vision Engraving machine. They offer several >>> models and the most basic version works just fine. It was a big investment >>> but we can make our own placatds in the same day. >>> We have a dedicated cheap laptop and a vacuum attachment they sell which >>> keeps the work area clean. There was a learning curve but we won after a >>> bit. >>> Its really nice to have and to have the flexibility makes that an aspect >>> of job management much less complicated. My guess is that it will take 3-4 >>> years to pay for itself. >>> We like having it and my only regret us that we didnt get one sooner. >>> >>> On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 11:57 AM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Aloha Wrenches, >>>> >>>> Anyone out there making their own engraved plaques and labels? >>>> If so, is it worth it and what machine are you using? >>>> Thanks for your time and insight, it is always appreciated. >>>> >>>> Aloha, >>>> >>>> Lou Russo >>>> Owner >>>> lou at spreesolarsystems.com >>>> 808 345 6762 >>>> Spree Solar Systems LLC >>>> CT-34322 >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Sun Mar 31 12:36:06 2024 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2024 12:36:06 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Plaques In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: After years of having a local vendor do my engraving and using a couple of different thermal printers, I settled on a Brady BMP 51 label printer. All kinds of colors and UV protective labels. The machine remembers your labels in a file and has battery backup. Definitely best to keep the labels out of the sun when possible, but even so they are holding up very well. I've had the unit for almost 10 years now. I don't recall the cost but it wasn't a deal breaker for me. Christopher On Sun, Mar 31, 2024 at 9:43 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hellermann Tyton seems to be big into labels. They also sell a thermal > printer which is branded as theirs, but it can also be found at > www.creativesafetysupply.com, branded as a Labeltac 4.0, at half the > price of Hellerman. $699 at present vs. the $1,500 Hellerman. That's where > I bought mine about 10 years ago. I used their MS Word label software to > customize templates. They also sell blank label rolls including white on > red reflective tape, UV resistant. > > I only used Hellerman generic write-on labels once. They were terrible, > indelible pen bleached out within a year. > > On Sun, Mar 31, 2024 at 7:58 AM Kirpal Khalsa via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Lou. . >> We got the Express engraver. All in it was around 5 grand. >> We were spending over $ 1500 per year ar our local trophy engraving store >> plus coordinating and they would go on vacation right when we needed >> placards. For us it made sense to bring this process in house. >> >> On Sun, Mar 31, 2024, 1:14 AM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Aloha Wrenches, >>> >>> Kirpal, I was looking at the Vision product line. What model did you >>> purchase? >>> >>> We work out in the boonies and driving 35 minutes to town to pick up a >>> $75 directory from the trophy shop is getting old. >>> >>> On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 5:48 PM Kirpal Khalsa via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Lou and all. >>>> We dove all in and got a Vision Engraving machine. They offer several >>>> models and the most basic version works just fine. It was a big investment >>>> but we can make our own placatds in the same day. >>>> We have a dedicated cheap laptop and a vacuum attachment they sell >>>> which keeps the work area clean. There was a learning curve but we won >>>> after a bit. >>>> Its really nice to have and to have the flexibility makes that an >>>> aspect of job management much less complicated. My guess is that it will >>>> take 3-4 years to pay for itself. >>>> We like having it and my only regret us that we didnt get one sooner. >>>> >>>> On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 11:57 AM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Aloha Wrenches, >>>>> >>>>> Anyone out there making their own engraved plaques and labels? >>>>> If so, is it worth it and what machine are you using? >>>>> Thanks for your time and insight, it is always appreciated. >>>>> >>>>> Aloha, >>>>> >>>>> Lou Russo >>>>> Owner >>>>> lou at spreesolarsystems.com >>>>> 808 345 6762 >>>>> Spree Solar Systems LLC >>>>> CT-34322 >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Mon Apr 1 09:33:58 2024 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2024 07:33:58 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Plaques In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Lou, It was mentioned among the myriad responses you got to this question but it's definitely worth trying the custom placards from PVLabels.com. https://www.pvlabels.com/custom-placards/ You upload a simple graphic through their website and they'll ship them out within a day or two. We only use this service for when we need a directory placard (e.g. a site map) which are 4x6 or 5x7 and cost around $30 to $45 per placard. For textual-only custom labels we own a Hellermann-Tyton thermal label printer that we bought six or seven years ago and has served us well. Those together with standard PV label stickers are all we need for the work we do. - Sam [image: OnSite Energy] SAM HARALDSON Field Operations Director (406) 551-6135 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 Locally owned and operated since 2012 [image: B Corporation] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Mon Apr 1 15:08:03 2024 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2024 15:08:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate3s error vs. event log Message-ID: Hello All, I have a customer with a OB Radian GS8048A, grid tied, which logs a "charged parms met" message regularly. When it does, the event log LED on the 3s starts blinking. My customer thinks it's an error, and calls me. I Wish I could somehow defeat this event, and any non-error, from blinking the event LED for everyone's sanity. Charged parms met is not an error, but it's crying fire in a theater to have this annoyance occurring. It happens several times a week. Is there any way to keep non-errors from flashing the LED? OB tech support is starting to have long lead times, so I am asking here first. Thanks. -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Tue Apr 2 01:46:46 2024 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2024 22:46:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate3s error vs. event log In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Kirk, Does the client rely on the fully charged indicator anyway? Perhaps defeat some of the settings that will satisfy the targets of the Flexnet? Maybe set the “charged voltage” to something a few volts higher than your absorption set point and/or take the timer all the way up to 240 minutes? It’s definitely frustrating that some clients are scared to press any buttons on the Mate, even that Events button can intimidate apparently! Nick > On Apr 1, 2024, at 12:08 PM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hello All, > > I have a customer with a OB Radian GS8048A, grid tied, which logs a "charged parms met" message regularly. When it does, the event log LED on the 3s starts blinking. My customer thinks it's an error, and calls me. I Wish I could somehow defeat this event, and any non-error, from blinking the event LED for everyone's sanity. > > Charged parms met is not an error, but it's crying fire in a theater to have this annoyance occurring. It happens several times a week. Is there any way to keep non-errors from flashing the LED? > > OB tech support is starting to have long lead times, so I am asking here first. Thanks. > > -- > Kirk Herander /  <>kirkh at vermont.solar > Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC > Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!! > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > 802.559.1225 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Tue Apr 2 15:42:18 2024 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2024 15:42:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate3s error vs. event log In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, Are you saying that this "charged parms met" message is actually coming from the Flexnet? I do have a flexnet in this system. The event log states the originating port to be "M", as from the Mate3s itself. On Tue, Apr 2, 2024 at 1:49 AM Nick A Lucchese via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello Kirk, > > Does the client rely on the fully charged indicator anyway? Perhaps defeat > some of the settings that will satisfy the targets of the Flexnet? Maybe > set the “charged voltage” to something a few volts higher than your > absorption set point and/or take the timer all the way up to 240 minutes? > It’s definitely frustrating that some clients are scared to press any > buttons on the Mate, even that Events button can intimidate apparently! > > Nick > > > On Apr 1, 2024, at 12:08 PM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hello All, > > I have a customer with a OB Radian GS8048A, grid tied, which logs a > "charged parms met" message regularly. When it does, the event log LED on > the 3s starts blinking. My customer thinks it's an error, and calls me. I > Wish I could somehow defeat this event, and any non-error, from blinking > the event LED for everyone's sanity. > > Charged parms met is not an error, but it's crying fire in a theater to > have this annoyance occurring. It happens several times a week. Is there > any way to keep non-errors from flashing the LED? > > OB tech support is starting to have long lead times, so I am asking here > first. Thanks. > > -- > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > 802.559.1225 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Tue Apr 2 15:51:10 2024 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2024 14:51:10 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNRack Message-ID: HI All, Just wondering if anyone has any of the old style SnapNRack rail and/or the old style rail splices on the shelf. Please respond off list if so. Thanks, Kris Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vincentj at cobaltpower.com Tue Apr 2 16:17:04 2024 From: vincentj at cobaltpower.com (Vincent Jolissaint) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2024 13:17:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Directory Placards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi all, I bought a 80w CO2 laser cutter engraver from Ebay a few years ago and have been running it each evening as a nice side business. It was about $2000 to purchase. Ise 2 layer laser engraving plastic from Johnson Plastic with 3M double side tape pre-applied. I found out later that I really need a high quality and high volume Fume extractor, which is about another $2000. The stench of the plastic being cut or burned is really disgusting and unhealthy. There are many different models available but I understand the ones with RUIDA controllers to be best. Mine has a 17" x 22" table. I can send links to similar machines to anyone who asks. I don't make much money doing it, but the biggest value is that we can make any customer label the inspector asks for that night and have it the next day. If anyone is interested in another source for these labels by the piece, feel free to reach out to my cell # (831) 331-1233 I charge about $0.50/square inch which works out to $25 for a 7x7 directory placard+shipping. *Vince Jolissaint |* *Director of CAD Services* 2557 Wyandotte Street | Mountain View, CA 94043 Office: 650.938.9574 | E-Mail: vincentj at cobaltpower.com > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2024 07:33:58 -0600 > From: Sam Haraldson > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Plaques > Message-ID: > < > CAGKtuykRU1G6y18nR6Yu9r79jkrH4wcka1BgJK9Tnmmfpte4aA at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Lou, > > It was mentioned among the myriad responses you got to this question but > it's definitely worth trying the custom placards from > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__PVLabels.com&d=DwICAg&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=ECw7Qp6Yw25QG-4a93xiM1GhdSKgc6IiWO4v8gVWfGo&m=jteZdiNAyZGFCYa5RI9ODgKaf8xHesmNFKm9MFawJ6hA9Mp0bgXusMvqKAr_OIH6&s=Omx7b550n7R5hrWrqCAlzuuvqha8Uu3tz6dH4ecumQI&e= > . > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.pvlabels.com_custom-2Dplacards_&d=DwICAg&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=ECw7Qp6Yw25QG-4a93xiM1GhdSKgc6IiWO4v8gVWfGo&m=jteZdiNAyZGFCYa5RI9ODgKaf8xHesmNFKm9MFawJ6hA9Mp0bgXusMvqKAr_OIH6&s=QObJAvzZ5PBDeLMXcrehv1Jc9Z55z_AehTYHqv4UjwA&e= > > You upload a simple graphic through their website and they'll ship them out > within a day or two. We only use this service for when we need a directory > placard (e.g. a site map) which are 4x6 or 5x7 and cost around $30 to $45 > per placard. > > For textual-only custom labels we own a Hellermann-Tyton thermal label > printer that we bought six or seven years ago and has served us well. > Those together with standard PV label stickers are all we need for the work > we do. > > - Sam > > [image: OnSite Energy] > < > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.google.com_url-3Fq-3Dhttps-3A__onsiteenergyinc.com_-26source-3Dgmail-2Dhtml-26ust-3D1677085494759000-26usg-3DAOvVaw2NN36GoM1sjnS4RdC8Svt-2D&d=DwICAg&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=ECw7Qp6Yw25QG-4a93xiM1GhdSKgc6IiWO4v8gVWfGo&m=jteZdiNAyZGFCYa5RI9ODgKaf8xHesmNFKm9MFawJ6hA9Mp0bgXusMvqKAr_OIH6&s=0KsmwxYn13wLbHkD4sKqhLS9_bu4LutfkSXlgvaSsaE&e= > > > > SAM HARALDSON > Field Operations Director > (406) 551-6135 > 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 > Locally owned and operated since 2012 > [image: B Corporation] > ***************** > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 07:56:27 2024 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2024 05:56:27 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Prepping for Bi-directional Charging with Enphase Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, I have a customer who is an early adopter that is ready to add some Enphase 5P to his IQ 8 system. Doing this will require updating his current Sunlight backup IQ System Controller 2, to the latest IQ System Controller 3 to be able to work with the 5P. He is OK with this upgrade, but understandably, he would like some assurance that this upgraded system controller will be compatible with the upcoming bi-directional charger. I know nothing is solid for an un-released product, however, I would appreciate any insight or good Enphase contacts that may be able to give good, informed advice. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Apr 3 09:02:59 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2024 13:02:59 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Prepping for Bi-directional Charging with Enphase In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <395750e9-29be-f69e-7404-bf9bd1730fcd@floridasolardesigngroup.com> My understanding is that the EV charger will be compatible with the SC3 but not the SC2. The white paper [https://mailtrack.io/l/90667185047385cae6914b7225cd28f5ef001880?url=https%3A%2F%2Fenphase.com%2Fdownload%2Fbidirectional-ev-charger-white-paper&u=1613865&signature=feaaf6fd1c1cbfdd] says that the system will require the CAN bus protocol, and I don't think the SC2 can be upgraded to use that wired protocol. The IQ Combiner 3 or IQ Combiner 4 should be usable with a Communications Kit (COMMS-KIT-2). However, When I am upgrading people to IQ Battery 5P where they have an IQ Combiner 4 or prior, I just upgrade them to an IQ Combiner 5C because by the time you buy the communication adapter and cell modem, it's cheaper and easier to just swap out the combiner in most cases. And that leaves me an older combiner to have as a spare to sell as a used replacement down the line. I think you are safe with the SC3 for bi-directional charging compatibility. I am not clear on whether a SC3G can be used. But I think the bi-directional chargers will use one of the DER breaker slots, which means you will need a SC3, not a SC3G if you also have 5P batteries. That means you will be limited to four 5P batteries without PCS or 8 batteries with PCS. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Apr 3, 2024 at 7:57 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > > I have a customer who is an early adopter that is ready to add some Enphase 5P > to his IQ 8 system.  Doing this will require updating his current Sunlight > backup IQ System Controller 2, to the latest IQ System Controller 3 to be able > to work with the 5P.  He is OK with this upgrade, but understandably, he would > like some assurance that this upgraded system controller will be compatible > with the upcoming bi-directional charger.   > > > I know nothing is solid for an un-released product, however, I would > appreciate any insight or good Enphase contacts that may be able to give good, > informed advice.  Any help would be greatly appreciated. > Thanks! > > > -- > > > > > > > > Mac Lewis > > > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [http://re-wrenches.org] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > [RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Wed Apr 3 13:02:12 2024 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2024 10:02:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate3s error vs. event log In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Greetings Kirk, It is my understanding that the “charged parms met” comes from the FNDC since that is the component measuring the current and going by those guidelines in the “Battery Setup” menu assigned to the FNDC port. This would seem like a reasonable test and could be done remotely through Opticsre without requiring a trip to the site as well. Perhaps Lones can comment on this strategy? Sometimes the smallest insignificant details can trigger a client regardless of how well we did with the rest of the system. I feel for you! Nick > On Apr 2, 2024, at 12:42 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: > > Hi, > Are you saying that this "charged parms met" message is actually coming from the Flexnet? I do have a flexnet in this system. The event log states the originating port to be "M", as from the Mate3s itself. > > On Tue, Apr 2, 2024 at 1:49 AM Nick A Lucchese via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Hello Kirk, > > Does the client rely on the fully charged indicator anyway? Perhaps defeat some of the settings that will satisfy the targets of the Flexnet? Maybe set the “charged voltage” to something a few volts higher than your absorption set point and/or take the timer all the way up to 240 minutes? It’s definitely frustrating that some clients are scared to press any buttons on the Mate, even that Events button can intimidate apparently! > > Nick > > >> On Apr 1, 2024, at 12:08 PM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> >> Hello All, >> >> I have a customer with a OB Radian GS8048A, grid tied, which logs a "charged parms met" message regularly. When it does, the event log LED on the 3s starts blinking. My customer thinks it's an error, and calls me. I Wish I could somehow defeat this event, and any non-error, from blinking the event LED for everyone's sanity. >> >> Charged parms met is not an error, but it's crying fire in a theater to have this annoyance occurring. It happens several times a week. Is there any way to keep non-errors from flashing the LED? >> >> OB tech support is starting to have long lead times, so I am asking here first. Thanks. >> >> -- >> Kirk Herander /  <>kirkh at vermont.solar >> Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC >> Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!! >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> 802.559.1225 >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 13:25:47 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2024 11:25:47 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate3s error vs. event log In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1FAF3A7A-B746-4180-8598-BD4DC3655514@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Wed Apr 3 13:28:33 2024 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2024 10:28:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate3s error vs. event log In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The charge parameters depends on the FNDC settings, so yes, it comes from the FNDC but is triggered by the combination of the Mate or Mate3, again depending on the FNDC Settings: There are three "And/Or" Statements. So, to meet charge parameters, you must satisfy the following. Statement 1 End Amps And Para Met Voltage And Para Met Time If these are met, and there is a 60-second discharge, the Mate shows that the parameters were met and resets the SOC to 100% 60 seconds in the past... BCF% If set to, say, 95%, When you remove 100 amps and charge back 105 Amps. If this is met, and there is a 60-second discharge, the Mate shows that the parameters were met and resets the SOC to 100% 60 seconds in the past... Absorb Timer Met If the charge controllers or inverter meet the absorb timers as programmed, and there is a 60-second discharge, the Mate shows that the parameters were met and resets the SOC to 100% 60 seconds in the past... I don't know why it displays a flashing LED. That is beyond my knowledge; I have never seen this, but it might be related to its setup or operation mode. As for Lones, he retired (6 Months +) quite some time ago. I don't know who is now in charge of the wrenches list at Outback. With the recent Outback developments, I'd be surprised if they have a tech even looking at these emails. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Wed, Apr 3, 2024 at 10:03 AM Nick A Lucchese via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Greetings Kirk, > > It is my understanding that the “charged parms met” comes from the FNDC > since that is the component measuring the current and going by those > guidelines in the “Battery Setup” menu assigned to the FNDC port. This > would seem like a reasonable test and could be done remotely through > Opticsre without requiring a trip to the site as well. Perhaps Lones can > comment on this strategy? > > Sometimes the smallest insignificant details can trigger a client > regardless of how well we did with the rest of the system. I feel for you! > > Nick > > > > > On Apr 2, 2024, at 12:42 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: > > Hi, > Are you saying that this "charged parms met" message is actually coming > from the Flexnet? I do have a flexnet in this system. The event log states > the originating port to be "M", as from the Mate3s itself. > > On Tue, Apr 2, 2024 at 1:49 AM Nick A Lucchese via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hello Kirk, >> >> Does the client rely on the fully charged indicator anyway? Perhaps >> defeat some of the settings that will satisfy the targets of the Flexnet? >> Maybe set the “charged voltage” to something a few volts higher than your >> absorption set point and/or take the timer all the way up to 240 minutes? >> It’s definitely frustrating that some clients are scared to press any >> buttons on the Mate, even that Events button can intimidate apparently! >> >> Nick >> >> >> On Apr 1, 2024, at 12:08 PM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Hello All, >> >> I have a customer with a OB Radian GS8048A, grid tied, which logs a >> "charged parms met" message regularly. When it does, the event log LED on >> the 3s starts blinking. My customer thinks it's an error, and calls me. I >> Wish I could somehow defeat this event, and any non-error, from blinking >> the event LED for everyone's sanity. >> >> Charged parms met is not an error, but it's crying fire in a theater to >> have this annoyance occurring. It happens several times a week. Is there >> any way to keep non-errors from flashing the LED? >> >> OB tech support is starting to have long lead times, so I am asking here >> first. Thanks. >> >> -- >> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >> *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> 802.559.1225 >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Apr 3 18:36:15 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2024 15:36:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate3s error vs. event log In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <84580c9403442d30d1d1fe1469d833d2@sti.net> Hi Kirk, It has been a long time since I used Optics and not sure if this will work but here goes. A few years back Schneider came up with a way to hard wire a tablet for a graphic shot of the system that the user does not have to do anything. It is on 24/7. I have a few older clients that need this. You would have to have optics working. Below is a video on how to do this with a Samsung tablet from Eric Bentsen. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuGcZafueic&t=280s Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-04-01 12:08 pm, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hello All, > > I have a customer with a OB Radian GS8048A, grid tied, which logs a > "charged parms met" message regularly. When it does, the event log LED > on the 3s starts blinking. My customer thinks it's an error, and calls > me. I Wish I could somehow defeat this event, and any non-error, from > blinking the event LED for everyone's sanity. > > Charged parms met is not an error, but it's crying fire in a theater to > have this annoyance occurring. It happens several times a week. Is > there any way to keep non-errors from flashing the LED? > > OB tech support is starting to have long lead times, so I am asking > here first. Thanks. > -- > > Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar > > Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC > > _Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!_ > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Apr 3 18:59:39 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2024 15:59:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Steel pipe purlins Message-ID: Colleagues: I have been asked to bid on installation of PV on a steel barn. The mounting area is an awning with steel pipe purlins. See photo below of a section of the plans. I have mounted racking to a lot of different steel structures, but never one with steel pipe purlins. I would normally use the EJOTs with thread forming shanks, but I don’t know how well they will work in steel pipe. Has anyone else ever faced this situation? Any help is appreciated. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 132943 bytes Desc: not available URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Wed Apr 3 19:33:44 2024 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2024 16:33:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Steel pipe purlins In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: because it is an awning seems like you may be able to disturb the roof layer above the purlins, even if temporarily? If so then i think an Iron Ridge top cap could be turned upside down. you can fasten the Ubolts around the purlins maybe overkill and also maybe hard to waterproof, if waterproof is something they need On Wed, Apr 3, 2024 at 3:59 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Colleagues: > > > > I have been asked to bid on installation of PV on a steel barn. The > mounting area is an awning with steel pipe purlins. See photo below of a > section of the plans. > > > > > > I have mounted racking to a lot of different steel structures, but never > one with steel pipe purlins. I would normally use the EJOTs with thread > forming shanks, but I don’t know how well they will work in steel pipe. > > > > Has anyone else ever faced this situation? > > > > Any help is appreciated. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 132943 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 19:45:05 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2024 17:45:05 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Steel pipe purlins In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96F02B96-5258-4688-B685-DE78BF7570A5@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From iesbatteries at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 19:59:15 2024 From: iesbatteries at gmail.com (Daryl DeJoy) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2024 19:59:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Steel pipe purlins In-Reply-To: <96F02B96-5258-4688-B685-DE78BF7570A5@gmail.com> References: <96F02B96-5258-4688-B685-DE78BF7570A5@gmail.com> Message-ID: We use Marutex screws on steel pipe purlins in the Bahamas. They are expensive but the strongest available screw that I know of, particularly good in hurricane territory and their molybdenum/stainless composition does not corrode. The last one we completed used Snap n Rack corrugated metal roofing attachments (single screw per attachment) and 2.5" Marutex 5/15 hex head screws (about $1.25 each) and attachment points every 48", totaling 820 screws, but has held up very well in some high winds, so far. Daryl On Wed, Apr 3, 2024, 7:47 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > If your looking to fasten into the steel pipe you look at > > Dynamicfasteners.com > > Great products > > Jay > > On Apr 3, 2024, at 5:34 PM, david quattro via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > because it is an awning seems like you may be able to disturb the roof > layer above the purlins, even if temporarily? > If so then i think an Iron Ridge top cap could be turned upside down. you > can fasten the Ubolts around the purlins > maybe overkill and also maybe hard to waterproof, if waterproof is > something they need > > On Wed, Apr 3, 2024 at 3:59 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Colleagues: >> >> >> >> I have been asked to bid on installation of PV on a steel barn. The >> mounting area is an awning with steel pipe purlins. See photo below of a >> section of the plans. >> >> >> >> >> >> I have mounted racking to a lot of different steel structures, but never >> one with steel pipe purlins. I would normally use the EJOTs with thread >> forming shanks, but I don’t know how well they will work in steel pipe. >> >> >> >> Has anyone else ever faced this situation? >> >> >> >> Any help is appreciated. >> >> >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 15:07:20 2024 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2024 13:07:20 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Optics RE and Starlink Message-ID: Esteemed Wrenches - One of my Optics sites started acting up last summer, randomly dropping its connection, and requiring a manual Mate reboot (unplug Mate connection to Hub, wait 30 seconds and replug - but a 4-hour drive), after which the Mate3S would be back online in under a minute. It was set to reboot every 24 hours as per advice from Outback years ago, and it all worked fine for years. We upgraded the Mate3S firmware last fall, and turned the Mate auto-reboot off, no help. Rebooted manually again, set auto reboot to 24 hours again, then to 4 hours. No help. The site is rural and offgrid, but has Centurylink DSL that has been getting slower with more dropouts every month, and everyone in town is complaining about it. So we installed Starlink for the client, the wired router is right next to the Mate. . It's blazing fast, but we are having the same issue of random disconnects, requiring manual reboot . The little tab on the Mate3S RJ-45 cable is wearing out... Outback says "This is a known issue with Starlink customers and has engineers for both our companies working on a joint solution on how to remedy this connectivity issue." I'm going to install a load-balancing failback router this weekend, so hopefully during the times the Starlink gets too wonky, hopefully it fails back to the DSL and the Mate stays connected... Has anyone else here dealt with Optics RE and Starlink? Any tips or tricks? I have monitoring systems in the field running on Starlink from Magnum, Midnite, and Schnieder, and none of them had any trouble with the Starlink internet connection. Odd that only Outback is causing problems. I appreciate any and all advice! Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Apr 5 15:16:06 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2024 12:16:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Optics RE and Starlink In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8da4684c14da5cfa76da72b017cc3330@mail.gmail.com> Dan: There was a period of time when the Mate3 or 3s would lock up pretty regularly. We built a system that could disconnect the Mate from the hub via a din rail mount RJ-45 relay. This link may provide some more info. If you want more details let me know. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Dan Fink via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Friday, April 5, 2024 12:07 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Dan Fink *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Outback Optics RE and Starlink Esteemed Wrenches - One of my Optics sites started acting up last summer, randomly dropping its connection, and requiring a manual Mate reboot (unplug Mate connection to Hub, wait 30 seconds and replug - but a 4-hour drive), after which the Mate3S would be back online in under a minute. It was set to reboot every 24 hours as per advice from Outback years ago, and it all worked fine for years. We upgraded the Mate3S firmware last fall, and turned the Mate auto-reboot off, no help. Rebooted manually again, set auto reboot to 24 hours again, then to 4 hours. No help. The site is rural and offgrid, but has Centurylink DSL that has been getting slower with more dropouts every month, and everyone in town is complaining about it. So we installed Starlink for the client, the wired router is right next to the Mate. . It's blazing fast, but we are having the same issue of random disconnects, requiring manual reboot . The little tab on the Mate3S RJ-45 cable is wearing out... Outback says "This is a known issue with Starlink customers and has engineers for both our companies working on a joint solution on how to remedy this connectivity issue." I'm going to install a load-balancing failback router this weekend, so hopefully during the times the Starlink gets too wonky, hopefully it fails back to the DSL and the Mate stays connected... Has anyone else here dealt with Optics RE and Starlink? Any tips or tricks? I have monitoring systems in the field running on Starlink from Magnum, Midnite, and Schnieder, and none of them had any trouble with the Starlink internet connection. Odd that only Outback is causing problems. I appreciate any and all advice! Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 16:50:07 2024 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2024 14:50:07 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Optics RE and Starlink In-Reply-To: <8da4684c14da5cfa76da72b017cc3330@mail.gmail.com> References: <8da4684c14da5cfa76da72b017cc3330@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Dan, We've had very good luck with the Starlink/Mate3s combo with the latest firmware. Do other devices drop too? I think the updated router will fix this. You can also use that reboot schedule. I am curious, what router are you using for dual WAN? On Fri, Apr 5, 2024 at 1:23 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Dan: > > > > There was a period of time when the Mate3 or 3s would lock up pretty > regularly. We built a system that could disconnect the Mate from the hub > via a din rail mount RJ-45 relay. This link > > may provide some more info. If you want more details let me know. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Dan Fink via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Friday, April 5, 2024 12:07 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Dan Fink > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Outback Optics RE and Starlink > > > > Esteemed Wrenches - One of my Optics sites started acting up last summer, > randomly dropping its connection, and requiring a manual Mate reboot > (unplug Mate connection to Hub, wait 30 seconds and replug - but a 4-hour > drive), after which the Mate3S would be back online in under a minute. It > was set to reboot every 24 hours as per advice from Outback years ago, and > it all worked fine for years. > > > > We upgraded the Mate3S firmware last fall, and turned the Mate auto-reboot > off, no help. Rebooted manually again, set auto reboot to 24 hours again, > then to 4 hours. No help. > > > > The site is rural and offgrid, but has Centurylink DSL that has been > getting slower with more dropouts every month, and everyone in town is > complaining about it. > > > > So we installed Starlink for the client, the wired router is right next to > the Mate. . It's blazing fast, but we are having the same issue of random > disconnects, requiring manual reboot . The little tab on the Mate3S RJ-45 > cable is wearing out... > > > > Outback says "This is a known issue with Starlink customers and has > engineers for both our companies working on a joint solution on how to > remedy this connectivity issue." > > > > I'm going to install a load-balancing failback router this weekend, so > hopefully during the times the Starlink gets too wonky, hopefully it fails > back to the DSL and the Mate stays connected... > > > > Has anyone else here dealt with Optics RE and Starlink? Any tips or tricks? > > I have monitoring systems in the field running on Starlink from Magnum, > Midnite, and Schnieder, and none of them had any trouble with the Starlink > internet connection. Odd that only Outback is causing problems. > > > > I appreciate any and all advice! > > > > Dan Fink > > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > > NABCEP PV Associate > > d anbob88 at gmail.com > > 970-672-4342 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 17:07:44 2024 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2024 15:07:44 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Optics RE and Starlink In-Reply-To: References: <8da4684c14da5cfa76da72b017cc3330@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Mac, the only other device is currently a Resol Vbus monitor and it's been fine with the bad DSL for years and has had no trouble with Starlink. He plans to add security cameras now that we have Starlink there. For now I'll point one at the Mate3S so at least we can see system status! The Starlink system is the new Gen3, and their new wifi router is much improved over my gen 2. I did notice on one service call last fall is that after rebooting the Mate 3s, I also had to reboot the unmanaged (dumb) and somewhat old LAN switch. I'm going down there Sunday to replace it with a TP-Link ER605 V2 Wired Gigabit router, I'll be down there for a couple days (might as well watch the eclipse from an awesome spot) so we'll have a couple days to see if it works better with Starlink as the primary WAN and fail back to the DSL, or the other way around. The Mate's own auto-reboot doesn't seem to have been helping us over the last 5 years but I'll leave it on. Best regards, Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Fri, Apr 5, 2024 at 2:50 PM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Dan, > > We've had very good luck with the Starlink/Mate3s combo with the latest > firmware. Do other devices drop too? > > I think the updated router will fix this. You can also use that reboot > schedule. I am curious, what router are you using for dual WAN? > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 5, 2024 at 1:23 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Dan: >> >> >> >> There was a period of time when the Mate3 or 3s would lock up pretty >> regularly. We built a system that could disconnect the Mate from the hub >> via a din rail mount RJ-45 relay. This link >> >> may provide some more info. If you want more details let me know. >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Dan Fink via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Friday, April 5, 2024 12:07 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* Dan Fink >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Outback Optics RE and Starlink >> >> >> >> Esteemed Wrenches - One of my Optics sites started acting up last summer, >> randomly dropping its connection, and requiring a manual Mate reboot >> (unplug Mate connection to Hub, wait 30 seconds and replug - but a 4-hour >> drive), after which the Mate3S would be back online in under a minute. It >> was set to reboot every 24 hours as per advice from Outback years ago, and >> it all worked fine for years. >> >> >> >> We upgraded the Mate3S firmware last fall, and turned the Mate >> auto-reboot off, no help. Rebooted manually again, set auto reboot to 24 >> hours again, then to 4 hours. No help. >> >> >> >> The site is rural and offgrid, but has Centurylink DSL that has been >> getting slower with more dropouts every month, and everyone in town is >> complaining about it. >> >> >> >> So we installed Starlink for the client, the wired router is right next >> to the Mate. . It's blazing fast, but we are having the same issue of >> random disconnects, requiring manual reboot . The little tab on the Mate3S >> RJ-45 cable is wearing out... >> >> >> >> Outback says "This is a known issue with Starlink customers and has >> engineers for both our companies working on a joint solution on how to >> remedy this connectivity issue." >> >> >> >> I'm going to install a load-balancing failback router this weekend, so >> hopefully during the times the Starlink gets too wonky, hopefully it fails >> back to the DSL and the Mate stays connected... >> >> >> >> Has anyone else here dealt with Optics RE and Starlink? Any tips or >> tricks? >> >> I have monitoring systems in the field running on Starlink from Magnum, >> Midnite, and Schnieder, and none of them had any trouble with the Starlink >> internet connection. Odd that only Outback is causing problems. >> >> >> >> I appreciate any and all advice! >> >> >> >> Dan Fink >> >> Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC >> >> IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation >> >> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector >> >> NABCEP PV Associate >> >> d anbob88 at gmail.com >> >> 970-672-4342 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Apr 9 16:03:51 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2024 16:03:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator Charging Two Systems Message-ID: Hi all, I have a unique opportunity to put solar panels with battery backup on two adjacent homes on the same property for a client. The homes are separately metered with netmetering available. It will need dual Sol-Ark 15k on one home and a single Sol-Ark 15k on the other. The client wants to use a 48kW standby generator as a backup, but not permanently wired, to act as a redundant backup and battery charger for both homes. We're not worried about AGS here. He wants to use temporary cords to feed an inlet at each house connected to the Sol-Ark's GEN inputs. The idea here is that he can use a variety of generators up to and including this 48kW unit. He has all kinds of trailer mounted generators at his disposal from his work. If something small is all that is available, he could use that, but it would require changing the max amps on the Sol-Ark menus, something he is capable and willing to do. I have more questions than answers right now. Here are a few: 1. Any issues with grounding or a parallel neutral path (the homes share a utility transformer). 2. I'm thinking 100A inlets with 100A disconnects at each home. That should be more than sufficient, and input current limits can be set on each Sol-Ark system. 3. Are there twist-lock 100A cords available off the shelf for this type of application? I don't know exactly what type of outlets or permanent wiring will be required for the generator output at this time. 4. Any code issues I might be missing that would prevent this? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Tue Apr 9 16:15:23 2024 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2024 13:15:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ironridge ballasted BX on the ground Message-ID: <66EF7FA0-3159-4F55-AC5D-CCCFB04DCD43@me.com> Greetings Wrenches, Has anyone utilized any ballasted style commercial roof rack solutions directly on the ground? I have an upcoming project that is only predicted to be left in place for around 5 years and is on land expected to be put back as it was found therefore concrete is out of the question. I’ve successfully made temporary arrays with standard rails and tilts by pinning 2x wood material to grade but this one calls for something lower in profile. Very minimal use is expected during winter months so the lower production of a 10 degree tilt is not an issue. The Ironridge BX seems like it would be ideal and have been told at conferences and distributor shows that it would work but figure one of you may have experience with this product or something more appropriate and affordable? Perhaps even go for the bonus of something with a 15 degree tilt if it exists? I realize weeds and grasses will be a factor as well but client can come up with many low tech solutions for that aspect. The grade is quite flat, few rocks and site prep can certainly improve even more before the project begins. Thanks for the wisdom and experience, Nick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Tue Apr 9 16:15:55 2024 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jarvis) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2024 15:15:55 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator Charging Two Systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > 3. Are there twist-lock 100A cords available off the shelf for this type of application? I don't know exactly what type of outlets or permanent wiring will be required for the generator output at this time. IEC pin and sleeve. 100A in whatever voltage. Hundreds of dollars per set. Various wall mount options. https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=dbfe99b76a0ba531&sca_upv=1&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS1039US1039&q=iec+pin+and+sleeve+100a Or Appleton's PowerTite connectors are common on telecom and utility buildings that have needs for temporary generators: https://www.appleton.emerson.com/catalog/en-us/shop/appleton/appleton-powertite-pr But cam locks will probably be the most flexible. https://www.wireandcableyourway.com/female-cam-lok-connector-for-sizes-2-2-0 Portable commercial and rental generators are typically cam lock equipped. Then you put an inlet box on the building: https://satellitesale.net/products/intersect-icgc-1p-cam-lok-generator-connector-panel-nema-3r-120-240-200-amp best, -James Jarvis APRS World, LLC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 16:58:07 2024 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2024 16:58:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ironridge ballasted BX on the ground In-Reply-To: <66EF7FA0-3159-4F55-AC5D-CCCFB04DCD43@me.com> References: <66EF7FA0-3159-4F55-AC5D-CCCFB04DCD43@me.com> Message-ID: Are helical piles overkill for what you are trying to do? They can be unscrewed when you are done so nothing is left behind. Adam Katzman (he/him) Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator www.AutonomousEnergies.com (518) 567-1468 On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 4:17 PM Nick A Lucchese via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Greetings Wrenches, > > Has anyone utilized any ballasted style commercial roof rack solutions > directly on the ground? I have an upcoming project that is only predicted > to be left in place for around 5 years and is on land expected to be put > back as it was found therefore concrete is out of the question. I’ve > successfully made temporary arrays with standard rails and tilts by pinning > 2x wood material to grade but this one calls for something lower in > profile. Very minimal use is expected during winter months so the lower > production of a 10 degree tilt is not an issue. The Ironridge BX seems like > it would be ideal and have been told at conferences and distributor shows > that it would work but figure one of you may have experience with this > product or something more appropriate and affordable? Perhaps even go for > the bonus of something with a 15 degree tilt if it exists? I realize weeds > and grasses will be a factor as well but client can come up with many low > tech solutions for that aspect. The grade is quite flat, few rocks and site > prep can certainly improve even more before the project begins. > > Thanks for the wisdom and experience, Nick > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Tue Apr 9 17:09:56 2024 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2024 14:09:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ironridge ballasted BX on the ground In-Reply-To: References: <66EF7FA0-3159-4F55-AC5D-CCCFB04DCD43@me.com> Message-ID: Thanks Adam, yes that would definitely be overkill and kill the budget as well! Thanks for the thought though, appreciate it. Nick > On Apr 9, 2024, at 1:58 PM, AE Solar wrote: > > Are helical piles overkill for what you are trying to do? They can be unscrewed when you are done so nothing is left behind. > > Adam Katzman (he/him) > Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator > www.AutonomousEnergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > > > On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 4:17 PM Nick A Lucchese via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Greetings Wrenches, > > Has anyone utilized any ballasted style commercial roof rack solutions directly on the ground? I have an upcoming project that is only predicted to be left in place for around 5 years and is on land expected to be put back as it was found therefore concrete is out of the question. I’ve successfully made temporary arrays with standard rails and tilts by pinning 2x wood material to grade but this one calls for something lower in profile. Very minimal use is expected during winter months so the lower production of a 10 degree tilt is not an issue. The Ironridge BX seems like it would be ideal and have been told at conferences and distributor shows that it would work but figure one of you may have experience with this product or something more appropriate and affordable? Perhaps even go for the bonus of something with a 15 degree tilt if it exists? I realize weeds and grasses will be a factor as well but client can come up with many low tech solutions for that aspect. The grade is quite flat, few rocks and site prep can certainly improve even more before the project begins. > > Thanks for the wisdom and experience, Nick > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 18:53:47 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2024 16:53:47 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] midnite new inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8A14245E-1302-4506-99B7-FFF309131325@gmail.com> Hi All, Does anyone know the pricing and when it’ll be available? The New Midnite MN15-12KW-AIO All in One (AIO) inverter Looks good. thanks jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Tue Apr 9 19:19:08 2024 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2024 19:19:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ironridge ballasted BX on the ground In-Reply-To: <66EF7FA0-3159-4F55-AC5D-CCCFB04DCD43@me.com> References: <66EF7FA0-3159-4F55-AC5D-CCCFB04DCD43@me.com> Message-ID: <005901da8ad4$52ec7920$f8c56b60$@mindspring.com> Nick Please take a look at Power Fields. They have a ballasted ground mount, pretty simple to assemble. Two tubs to a panel and the ballast can be dirt, gravel or crush and run. 25% angle. Reach out to Cory in sales. https://www.powerfieldenergy.com/powerrack-1200/ thx Peter Giroux American Solar Norcross ga From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Nick A Lucchese via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, April 9, 2024 4:15 PM To: re-wrenches Cc: Nick A Lucchese Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ironridge ballasted BX on the ground Greetings Wrenches, Has anyone utilized any ballasted style commercial roof rack solutions directly on the ground? I have an upcoming project that is only predicted to be left in place for around 5 years and is on land expected to be put back as it was found therefore concrete is out of the question. I’ve successfully made temporary arrays with standard rails and tilts by pinning 2x wood material to grade but this one calls for something lower in profile. Very minimal use is expected during winter months so the lower production of a 10 degree tilt is not an issue. The Ironridge BX seems like it would be ideal and have been told at conferences and distributor shows that it would work but figure one of you may have experience with this product or something more appropriate and affordable? Perhaps even go for the bonus of something with a 15 degree tilt if it exists? I realize weeds and grasses will be a factor as well but client can come up with many low tech solutions for that aspect. The grade is quite flat, few rocks and site prep can certainly improve even more before the project begins. Thanks for the wisdom and experience, Nick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue Apr 9 20:03:35 2024 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2024 20:03:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ironridge ballasted BX on the ground Message-ID: <6qci9sqcu626bnobrqg812su.1712707344686@email.lge.com> How about the Codify ballasts solar panel ground mount?Basically a plastic tub-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Nick A Lucchese via RE-wrenchesDate: Tue, Apr 9, 2024 5:10 PMTo: AE Solar;Cc: Nick A Lucchese;RE-wrenches;Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Ironridge ballasted BX on the groundThanks Adam, yes that would definitely be overkill and kill the budget as well! Thanks for the thought though, appreciate it.Nick On Apr 9, 2024, at 1:58 PM, AE Solar wrote:Are helical piles overkill for what you are trying to do? They can be unscrewed when you are done so nothing is left behind. Adam Katzman (he/him)Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operatorwww.AutonomousEnergies.com(518) 567-1468On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 4:17 PM Nick A Lucchese via RE-wrenches wrote:Greetings Wrenches,Has anyone utilized any ballasted style commercial roof rack solutions directly on the ground? I have an upcoming project that is only predicted to be left in place for around 5 years and is on land expected to be put back as it was found therefore concrete is out of the question. I’ve successfully made temporary arrays with standard rails and tilts by pinning 2x wood material to grade but this one calls for something lower in profile. Very minimal use is expected during winter months so the lower production of a 10 degree tilt is not an issue. The Ironridge BX seems like it would be ideal and have been told at conferences and distributor shows that it would work but figure one of you may have experience with this product or something more appropriate and affordable? Perhaps even go for the bonus of something with a 15 degree tilt if it exists? I realize weeds and grasses will be a factor as well but client can come up with many low tech solutions for that aspect. The grade is quite flat, few rocks and site prep can certainly improve even more before the project begins.Thanks for the wisdom and experience, Nick _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 21:50:54 2024 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2024 21:50:54 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] midnite new inverter In-Reply-To: <8A14245E-1302-4506-99B7-FFF309131325@gmail.com> References: <8A14245E-1302-4506-99B7-FFF309131325@gmail.com> Message-ID: The last I heard, they are shipping this month or early next month. The pricing is supposed to be comparable to the other all in ones (Envy, Sol-Ark, EG4, etc.) deportment on your distributor. Howie On Tue, Apr 9, 2024, 6:55 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi All, > > Does anyone know the pricing and when it’ll be available? > > The New Midnite MN15-12KW-AIO All in One (AIO) inverter > > Looks good. > > thanks > > jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Tue Apr 9 20:32:16 2024 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2024 19:32:16 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] midnite new inverter In-Reply-To: <8A14245E-1302-4506-99B7-FFF309131325@gmail.com> References: , <8A14245E-1302-4506-99B7-FFF309131325@gmail.com> Message-ID: <17492C3A-DDAC-2347-B47C-84D7846CDCBD@hxcore.ol> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 08:46:51 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2024 06:46:51 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] midnite new inverter In-Reply-To: <17492C3A-DDAC-2347-B47C-84D7846CDCBD@hxcore.ol> References: <17492C3A-DDAC-2347-B47C-84D7846CDCBD@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: Hi scott Yes I think for new larger systems the AIO are the present/future Jay > On Apr 9, 2024, at 9:42 PM, scot.arey at solarcentex.com wrote: > >  > Wow, are we in the golden age of inverter/chargers? If it had 200-a.p pass thru it would be near perfect. > > Begs the question: are stand alone charge controllers becoming a historical artifact? > > Howard "Scot" Arey > Owner, Solar CenTex > 254-300-1228 From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 09:01:46 2024 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2024 09:01:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] midnite new inverter In-Reply-To: <17492C3A-DDAC-2347-B47C-84D7846CDCBD@hxcore.ol> References: <8A14245E-1302-4506-99B7-FFF309131325@gmail.com> <17492C3A-DDAC-2347-B47C-84D7846CDCBD@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: Time will tell where the failure modes are. I still don't like all the eggs in one basket. Do you have to send the units back for repair? Had enough of that with Trace SW series inverters.. For off grid, I'll stick to the tried and true for now. For Grid tie it is just a financial hit. For off-grid power loss it is more important to deal with right away.. I am going to try a Fortress Envy at my off grid home but will keep my Outback field repairable VFXR wired in just in case. I had a massive lightning strike between my house and a guest cabin 1/4 mile away and I lost power from my Fortress Eflex battery at the cabin and my Outback inverter at my house. I replaced the control board on my inverter ( I always keep one in reserve as it is usually the only board failure due to lightning) and was back on line in 1/2 hour and Fortress rushed me a new BMS board for the E-flex and a day later and a half hour swap had it back in service, Now it is a different story with 2 Simpliphi batteries I have from a customer that failed. I have to ship them to California to have them evaluated to see if we had damaged them by misuse. Lots of expense and time lost. John Blittersdorf CV Wind Service / Off Grid Vermont 802-770-8625 On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 11:43 PM Scot Arey via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wow, are we in the golden age of inverter/chargers? If it had 200-a.p pass > thru it would be near perfect. > > Begs the question: are stand alone charge controllers becoming a > historical artifact? > > Howard "Scot" Arey > Owner, Solar CenTex > 254-300-1228 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 09:49:18 2024 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2024 09:49:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] midnite new inverter In-Reply-To: References: <8A14245E-1302-4506-99B7-FFF309131325@gmail.com> <17492C3A-DDAC-2347-B47C-84D7846CDCBD@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: John, If you are thinking of pairing the Envy with lead-acid batteries, I would strongly suggest not doing it. Even though Fortress sales advertises the Envy to be compatible with lead-acid, after trying it in my off-grid home, I would emphatically say that it is not. The programming is inadequate, to put it kindly. And their support really doesn't have a clue about lead-acid - Fortress support literally said that they don't recommend pairing the Envy with l-a. However, I don't have an opinion about how it does with closed loop Li batteries. I did recently install an EG4 18k system, off-grid, with the client's knowledge that this was a bit of an experiment for me. Both the Envy and the EG4 are made by LuxPower and have been, to date, physically and programmatically almost identical. I had stayed away from EG4 since it seemed to be primarily aimed at the DIY market. However, the 18k appears to be a serious contender so far, although this installation is a fairly low stress situation. I've been fairly impressed with the system. While this 18k is paired with EG4 Lithium batteries, EG4 has been making adjustments to the firmware to make it much more friendly to lead-acid. If you decide to go this route, check with EG4 (installer support - ask for Jarrett or Colt) to see where they are at with upgrading the firmware. I am also eagerly awaiting Midnite's AIO entry... Howie On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 9:02 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Time will tell where the failure modes are. I still don't like all the > eggs in one basket. Do you have to send the units back for repair? Had > enough of that with Trace SW series inverters.. > For off grid, I'll stick to the tried and true for now. For Grid tie it > is just a financial hit. For off-grid power loss it is more important > to deal with right away.. > > I am going to try a Fortress Envy at my off grid home but will keep my > Outback field repairable VFXR wired in just in case. I had a massive > lightning strike between my house and a guest cabin 1/4 mile away and I > lost power from my Fortress Eflex battery at the cabin and my Outback > inverter at my house. I replaced the control board on my inverter ( I > always keep one in reserve as it is usually the only board failure due to > lightning) and was back on line in 1/2 hour and Fortress rushed me a new > BMS board for the E-flex and a day later and a half hour swap had it back > in service, Now it is a different story with 2 Simpliphi batteries I have > from a customer that failed. I have to ship them to California to have > them evaluated to see if we had damaged them by misuse. Lots of expense > and time lost. > > > > John Blittersdorf > CV Wind Service / Off Grid Vermont > 802-770-8625 > > On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 11:43 PM Scot Arey via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Wow, are we in the golden age of inverter/chargers? If it had 200-a.p >> pass thru it would be near perfect. >> >> Begs the question: are stand alone charge controllers becoming a >> historical artifact? >> >> Howard "Scot" Arey >> Owner, Solar CenTex >> 254-300-1228 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 10:19:02 2024 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2024 07:19:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] midnite new inverter In-Reply-To: References: <17492C3A-DDAC-2347-B47C-84D7846CDCBD@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: Wrenches, All in one boxes are easy to install and look all pretty and clean but is it really a good idea to have the CC, Inverter, Ats, bms, breakers all in one. cabinet. In the past this has not been the best long term solution. Seperate serviceable components are always better. Fun times On Wed, Apr 10, 2024, 5:48 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi scott > > Yes I think for new larger systems the AIO are the present/future > > Jay > > > On Apr 9, 2024, at 9:42 PM, scot.arey at solarcentex.com wrote: > > > >  > > Wow, are we in the golden age of inverter/chargers? If it had 200-a.p > pass thru it would be near perfect. > > > > Begs the question: are stand alone charge controllers becoming a > historical artifact? > > > > Howard "Scot" Arey > > Owner, Solar CenTex > > 254-300-1228 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 10:28:25 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2024 08:28:25 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] midnite new inverter In-Reply-To: References: <8A14245E-1302-4506-99B7-FFF309131325@gmail.com> <17492C3A-DDAC-2347-B47C-84D7846CDCBD@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: <0BD48E87-96E7-4ECF-B403-6DEAC78C991A@gmail.com> Can you explain what changes the eg4 18 inverter has vs the Envy as to LA programming? To me the Envy has a big advantage due to it having AGS warm up/cool down that the EG4 does not. Jay > On Apr 10, 2024, at 7:49 AM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote: > > John, > If you are thinking of pairing the Envy with lead-acid batteries, I would strongly suggest not doing it. Even though Fortress sales advertises the Envy to be compatible with lead-acid, after trying it in my off-grid home, I would emphatically say that it is not. The programming is inadequate, to put it kindly. And their support really doesn't have a clue about lead-acid - Fortress support literally said that they don't recommend pairing the Envy with l-a. However, I don't have an opinion about how it does with closed loop Li batteries. > I did recently install an EG4 18k system, off-grid, with the client's knowledge that this was a bit of an experiment for me. Both the Envy and the EG4 are made by LuxPower and have been, to date, physically and programmatically almost identical. I had stayed away from EG4 since it seemed to be primarily aimed at the DIY market. However, the 18k appears to be a serious contender so far, although this installation is a fairly low stress situation. I've been fairly impressed with the system. While this 18k is paired with EG4 Lithium batteries, EG4 has been making adjustments to the firmware to make it much more friendly to lead-acid. If you decide to go this route, check with EG4 (installer support - ask for Jarrett or Colt) to see where they are at with upgrading the firmware. > I am also eagerly awaiting Midnite's AIO entry... > > Howie > > > On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 9:02 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Time will tell where the failure modes are. I still don't like all the eggs in one basket. Do you have to send the units back for repair? Had enough of that with Trace SW series inverters.. > For off grid, I'll stick to the tried and true for now. For Grid tie it is just a financial hit. For off-grid power loss it is more important to deal with right away.. > > I am going to try a Fortress Envy at my off grid home but will keep my Outback field repairable VFXR wired in just in case. I had a massive lightning strike between my house and a guest cabin 1/4 mile away and I lost power from my Fortress Eflex battery at the cabin and my Outback inverter at my house. I replaced the control board on my inverter ( I always keep one in reserve as it is usually the only board failure due to lightning) and was back on line in 1/2 hour and Fortress rushed me a new BMS board for the E-flex and a day later and a half hour swap had it back in service, Now it is a different story with 2 Simpliphi batteries I have from a customer that failed. I have to ship them to California to have them evaluated to see if we had damaged them by misuse. Lots of expense and time lost. > > > > John Blittersdorf > CV Wind Service / Off Grid Vermont > 802-770-8625 > > On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 11:43 PM Scot Arey via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Wow, are we in the golden age of inverter/chargers? If it had 200-a.p pass thru it would be near perfect. > > Begs the question: are stand alone charge controllers becoming a historical artifact? > > Howard "Scot" Arey > Owner, Solar CenTex > 254-300-1228 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Wed Apr 10 11:00:20 2024 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2024 11:00:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] midnite new inverter In-Reply-To: References: <8A14245E-1302-4506-99B7-FFF309131325@gmail.com> <17492C3A-DDAC-2347-B47C-84D7846CDCBD@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: John The New MidNite AIO is completely field serviceable. If you have an issue (say lightning) MNS will stock all the needed boards and everything can be replaced on the wall. On a scale of one to ten, it's a 7 with 10 being the hardest (lots of screws). Only tools needed are an 11in One, pliers, and some hex wrenches. I am a Beta tester. Logan On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 9:49 AM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > John, > If you are thinking of pairing the Envy with lead-acid batteries, I would > strongly suggest not doing it. Even though Fortress sales advertises the > Envy to be compatible with lead-acid, after trying it in my off-grid home, > I would emphatically say that it is not. The programming is inadequate, to > put it kindly. And their support really doesn't have a clue about lead-acid > - Fortress support literally said that they don't recommend pairing the > Envy with l-a. However, I don't have an opinion about how it does with > closed loop Li batteries. > I did recently install an EG4 18k system, off-grid, with the client's > knowledge that this was a bit of an experiment for me. Both the Envy and > the EG4 are made by LuxPower and have been, to date, physically and > programmatically almost identical. I had stayed away from EG4 since it > seemed to be primarily aimed at the DIY market. However, the 18k appears to > be a serious contender so far, although this installation is a fairly low > stress situation. I've been fairly impressed with the system. While this > 18k is paired with EG4 Lithium batteries, EG4 has been making adjustments > to the firmware to make it much more friendly to lead-acid. If you decide > to go this route, check with EG4 (installer support - ask for Jarrett or > Colt) to see where they are at with upgrading the firmware. > I am also eagerly awaiting Midnite's AIO entry... > > Howie > > > On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 9:02 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Time will tell where the failure modes are. I still don't like all the >> eggs in one basket. Do you have to send the units back for repair? Had >> enough of that with Trace SW series inverters.. >> For off grid, I'll stick to the tried and true for now. For Grid tie it >> is just a financial hit. For off-grid power loss it is more important >> to deal with right away.. >> >> I am going to try a Fortress Envy at my off grid home but will keep my >> Outback field repairable VFXR wired in just in case. I had a massive >> lightning strike between my house and a guest cabin 1/4 mile away and I >> lost power from my Fortress Eflex battery at the cabin and my Outback >> inverter at my house. I replaced the control board on my inverter ( I >> always keep one in reserve as it is usually the only board failure due to >> lightning) and was back on line in 1/2 hour and Fortress rushed me a new >> BMS board for the E-flex and a day later and a half hour swap had it back >> in service, Now it is a different story with 2 Simpliphi batteries I have >> from a customer that failed. I have to ship them to California to have >> them evaluated to see if we had damaged them by misuse. Lots of expense >> and time lost. >> >> >> >> John Blittersdorf >> CV Wind Service / Off Grid Vermont >> 802-770-8625 >> >> On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 11:43 PM Scot Arey via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Wow, are we in the golden age of inverter/chargers? If it had 200-a.p >>> pass thru it would be near perfect. >>> >>> Begs the question: are stand alone charge controllers becoming a >>> historical artifact? >>> >>> Howard "Scot" Arey >>> Owner, Solar CenTex >>> 254-300-1228 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Wed Apr 10 11:00:38 2024 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2024 08:00:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] midnite new inverter In-Reply-To: <0BD48E87-96E7-4ECF-B403-6DEAC78C991A@gmail.com> References: <8A14245E-1302-4506-99B7-FFF309131325@gmail.com> <17492C3A-DDAC-2347-B47C-84D7846CDCBD@hxcore.ol> <0BD48E87-96E7-4ECF-B403-6DEAC78C991A@gmail.com> Message-ID: Good Morning Wrenches... When it comes to lead batteries, just be cautious of the all-in-ones and some of the hybrid inverters. Most of these inverters were not designed for Lead batteries and will struggle to charge them, resulting in sulfation (undercharging) issues. Eventually, this will lead to swelling of VRLA or excessive gassing on Flooded Batteries. Unfortunately, many of the "Hybrid" or "All-in-One" inverters released in the past 5-8 years are tailored more to lithium-chemistry batteries. I can't tell you how many battery banks have been cooked over the past couple of years due to the inability to control charging settings. If you can't control the Bulk/Absorb Voltage and Time, as well as the end amps termination setpoints, you will generally struggle to get and keep a Lead-Acid battery charged regardless of the battery you are using. I looked at the Midnite site and I don't see a user manual yet, once it's posted I'll take a look and see if it's compatible for Rolls Batteries, I'm pretty sure it will as Midnight has been asking battery charging questions the last couple of years. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 7:29 AM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Can you explain what changes the eg4 18 inverter has vs the Envy as to LA > programming? > > To me the Envy has a big advantage due to it having AGS warm up/cool down > that the EG4 does not. > > Jay > > > > > > On Apr 10, 2024, at 7:49 AM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > John, > If you are thinking of pairing the Envy with lead-acid batteries, I would > strongly suggest not doing it. Even though Fortress sales advertises the > Envy to be compatible with lead-acid, after trying it in my off-grid home, > I would emphatically say that it is not. The programming is inadequate, to > put it kindly. And their support really doesn't have a clue about lead-acid > - Fortress support literally said that they don't recommend pairing the > Envy with l-a. However, I don't have an opinion about how it does with > closed loop Li batteries. > I did recently install an EG4 18k system, off-grid, with the client's > knowledge that this was a bit of an experiment for me. Both the Envy and > the EG4 are made by LuxPower and have been, to date, physically and > programmatically almost identical. I had stayed away from EG4 since it > seemed to be primarily aimed at the DIY market. However, the 18k appears to > be a serious contender so far, although this installation is a fairly low > stress situation. I've been fairly impressed with the system. While this > 18k is paired with EG4 Lithium batteries, EG4 has been making adjustments > to the firmware to make it much more friendly to lead-acid. If you decide > to go this route, check with EG4 (installer support - ask for Jarrett or > Colt) to see where they are at with upgrading the firmware. > I am also eagerly awaiting Midnite's AIO entry... > > Howie > > > On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 9:02 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Time will tell where the failure modes are. I still don't like all the >> eggs in one basket. Do you have to send the units back for repair? Had >> enough of that with Trace SW series inverters.. >> For off grid, I'll stick to the tried and true for now. For Grid tie it >> is just a financial hit. For off-grid power loss it is more important >> to deal with right away.. >> >> I am going to try a Fortress Envy at my off grid home but will keep my >> Outback field repairable VFXR wired in just in case. I had a massive >> lightning strike between my house and a guest cabin 1/4 mile away and I >> lost power from my Fortress Eflex battery at the cabin and my Outback >> inverter at my house. I replaced the control board on my inverter ( I >> always keep one in reserve as it is usually the only board failure due to >> lightning) and was back on line in 1/2 hour and Fortress rushed me a new >> BMS board for the E-flex and a day later and a half hour swap had it back >> in service, Now it is a different story with 2 Simpliphi batteries I have >> from a customer that failed. I have to ship them to California to have >> them evaluated to see if we had damaged them by misuse. Lots of expense >> and time lost. >> >> >> >> John Blittersdorf >> CV Wind Service / Off Grid Vermont >> 802-770-8625 >> >> On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 11:43 PM Scot Arey via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Wow, are we in the golden age of inverter/chargers? If it had 200-a.p >>> pass thru it would be near perfect. >>> >>> Begs the question: are stand alone charge controllers becoming a >>> historical artifact? >>> >>> Howard "Scot" Arey >>> Owner, Solar CenTex >>> 254-300-1228 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Wed Apr 10 11:52:46 2024 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2024 11:52:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] midnite new inverter In-Reply-To: References: <8A14245E-1302-4506-99B7-FFF309131325@gmail.com> <17492C3A-DDAC-2347-B47C-84D7846CDCBD@hxcore.ol> <0BD48E87-96E7-4ECF-B403-6DEAC78C991A@gmail.com> Message-ID: All As a Beta tester and being a part of the development of the MNS All in One, MNS is working to ensure that the current limitations from the use of LA batteries will be addressed and supported. MNS is addressing the concerns of using an AOI inverter because failure will require the R&R of the unit. This AIO is designed to be completely field serviceable and MNS will stock the boards and will provide the technical help to get the system back up and running in the field. Thanks Logan On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 11:01 AM Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Good Morning Wrenches... > > When it comes to lead batteries, just be cautious of the all-in-ones and > some of the hybrid inverters. > > Most of these inverters were not designed for Lead batteries and will > struggle to charge them, resulting in sulfation (undercharging) issues. > Eventually, this will lead to swelling of VRLA or excessive gassing on > Flooded Batteries. Unfortunately, many of the "Hybrid" or "All-in-One" > inverters released in the past 5-8 years are tailored more to > lithium-chemistry batteries. I can't tell you how many battery banks have > been cooked over the past couple of years due to the inability to control > charging settings. > > If you can't control the Bulk/Absorb Voltage and Time, as well as the end > amps termination setpoints, you will generally struggle to get and keep a > Lead-Acid battery charged regardless of the battery you are using. > > I looked at the Midnite site and I don't see a user manual yet, once it's > posted I'll take a look and see if it's compatible for Rolls Batteries, > I'm pretty sure it will as Midnight has been asking battery charging > questions the last couple of years. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager > t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 > f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for > the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged > material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the > taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If > you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or > destroy this message and all copies. > ------------------------------ > > > On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 7:29 AM jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Can you explain what changes the eg4 18 inverter has vs the Envy as to LA >> programming? >> >> To me the Envy has a big advantage due to it having AGS warm up/cool down >> that the EG4 does not. >> >> Jay >> >> >> >> >> >> On Apr 10, 2024, at 7:49 AM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> John, >> If you are thinking of pairing the Envy with lead-acid batteries, I would >> strongly suggest not doing it. Even though Fortress sales advertises the >> Envy to be compatible with lead-acid, after trying it in my off-grid home, >> I would emphatically say that it is not. The programming is inadequate, to >> put it kindly. And their support really doesn't have a clue about lead-acid >> - Fortress support literally said that they don't recommend pairing the >> Envy with l-a. However, I don't have an opinion about how it does with >> closed loop Li batteries. >> I did recently install an EG4 18k system, off-grid, with the client's >> knowledge that this was a bit of an experiment for me. Both the Envy and >> the EG4 are made by LuxPower and have been, to date, physically and >> programmatically almost identical. I had stayed away from EG4 since it >> seemed to be primarily aimed at the DIY market. However, the 18k appears to >> be a serious contender so far, although this installation is a fairly low >> stress situation. I've been fairly impressed with the system. While this >> 18k is paired with EG4 Lithium batteries, EG4 has been making adjustments >> to the firmware to make it much more friendly to lead-acid. If you decide >> to go this route, check with EG4 (installer support - ask for Jarrett or >> Colt) to see where they are at with upgrading the firmware. >> I am also eagerly awaiting Midnite's AIO entry... >> >> Howie >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 9:02 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Time will tell where the failure modes are. I still don't like all the >>> eggs in one basket. Do you have to send the units back for repair? Had >>> enough of that with Trace SW series inverters.. >>> For off grid, I'll stick to the tried and true for now. For Grid tie it >>> is just a financial hit. For off-grid power loss it is more important >>> to deal with right away.. >>> >>> I am going to try a Fortress Envy at my off grid home but will keep my >>> Outback field repairable VFXR wired in just in case. I had a massive >>> lightning strike between my house and a guest cabin 1/4 mile away and I >>> lost power from my Fortress Eflex battery at the cabin and my Outback >>> inverter at my house. I replaced the control board on my inverter ( I >>> always keep one in reserve as it is usually the only board failure due to >>> lightning) and was back on line in 1/2 hour and Fortress rushed me a new >>> BMS board for the E-flex and a day later and a half hour swap had it back >>> in service, Now it is a different story with 2 Simpliphi batteries I have >>> from a customer that failed. I have to ship them to California to have >>> them evaluated to see if we had damaged them by misuse. Lots of expense >>> and time lost. >>> >>> >>> >>> John Blittersdorf >>> CV Wind Service / Off Grid Vermont >>> 802-770-8625 >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 11:43 PM Scot Arey via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Wow, are we in the golden age of inverter/chargers? If it had 200-a.p >>>> pass thru it would be near perfect. >>>> >>>> Begs the question: are stand alone charge controllers becoming a >>>> historical artifact? >>>> >>>> Howard "Scot" Arey >>>> Owner, Solar CenTex >>>> 254-300-1228 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Wed Apr 10 12:12:35 2024 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2024 09:12:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] midnite new inverter In-Reply-To: <0BD48E87-96E7-4ECF-B403-6DEAC78C991A@gmail.com> References: <8A14245E-1302-4506-99B7-FFF309131325@gmail.com> <17492C3A-DDAC-2347-B47C-84D7846CDCBD@hxcore.ol> <0BD48E87-96E7-4ECF-B403-6DEAC78C991A@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have not installed an Fortress yet, but I know they are made by Deye (same Chinese original manufacturer as SolArk inverters) Here is a link for an excellent instructional by Steve Higgins @ Rolls - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJqBULN9MgI&pp=ygUWcm9sbHMgc3VycmV0dGUgaGlnZ2lucw%3D%3D This assumes that Envy comes with the same programming shortcoming as SolArk, I don't know. In order to effectively use a SolArk with lead acid batteries you have trick it. This process takes several iterations checking specific gravity, which means multiple site visits stretched over perhaps a couple months. The Absorb setting is ineffectual, so Steve's solution is to employ the Equalize setting to actually achieve Absorption. Carefully record the settings (voltage, duration, and frequency) that deliver a consistent specific gravity in range. On the rare occasions you actually need to equalize, you do it in person. When equalization is complete you return the settings back to your curated values. On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 7:28 AM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Can you explain what changes the eg4 18 inverter has vs the Envy as to LA > programming? > > To me the Envy has a big advantage due to it having AGS warm up/cool down > that the EG4 does not. > > Jay > > > > > > On Apr 10, 2024, at 7:49 AM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > John, > If you are thinking of pairing the Envy with lead-acid batteries, I would > strongly suggest not doing it. Even though Fortress sales advertises the > Envy to be compatible with lead-acid, after trying it in my off-grid home, > I would emphatically say that it is not. The programming is inadequate, to > put it kindly. And their support really doesn't have a clue about lead-acid > - Fortress support literally said that they don't recommend pairing the > Envy with l-a. However, I don't have an opinion about how it does with > closed loop Li batteries. > I did recently install an EG4 18k system, off-grid, with the client's > knowledge that this was a bit of an experiment for me. Both the Envy and > the EG4 are made by LuxPower and have been, to date, physically and > programmatically almost identical. I had stayed away from EG4 since it > seemed to be primarily aimed at the DIY market. However, the 18k appears to > be a serious contender so far, although this installation is a fairly low > stress situation. I've been fairly impressed with the system. While this > 18k is paired with EG4 Lithium batteries, EG4 has been making adjustments > to the firmware to make it much more friendly to lead-acid. If you decide > to go this route, check with EG4 (installer support - ask for Jarrett or > Colt) to see where they are at with upgrading the firmware. > I am also eagerly awaiting Midnite's AIO entry... > > Howie > > > On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 9:02 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Time will tell where the failure modes are. I still don't like all the >> eggs in one basket. Do you have to send the units back for repair? Had >> enough of that with Trace SW series inverters.. >> For off grid, I'll stick to the tried and true for now. For Grid tie it >> is just a financial hit. For off-grid power loss it is more important >> to deal with right away.. >> >> I am going to try a Fortress Envy at my off grid home but will keep my >> Outback field repairable VFXR wired in just in case. I had a massive >> lightning strike between my house and a guest cabin 1/4 mile away and I >> lost power from my Fortress Eflex battery at the cabin and my Outback >> inverter at my house. I replaced the control board on my inverter ( I >> always keep one in reserve as it is usually the only board failure due to >> lightning) and was back on line in 1/2 hour and Fortress rushed me a new >> BMS board for the E-flex and a day later and a half hour swap had it back >> in service, Now it is a different story with 2 Simpliphi batteries I have >> from a customer that failed. I have to ship them to California to have >> them evaluated to see if we had damaged them by misuse. Lots of expense >> and time lost. >> >> >> >> John Blittersdorf >> CV Wind Service / Off Grid Vermont >> 802-770-8625 >> >> On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 11:43 PM Scot Arey via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Wow, are we in the golden age of inverter/chargers? If it had 200-a.p >>> pass thru it would be near perfect. >>> >>> Begs the question: are stand alone charge controllers becoming a >>> historical artifact? >>> >>> Howard "Scot" Arey >>> Owner, Solar CenTex >>> 254-300-1228 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Wed Apr 10 12:40:03 2024 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2024 10:40:03 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid array far, far from the batteries Message-ID: <007b01da8b65$bd207670$37616350$@OasisMontana.com> The crazy things folks do. Dear people: We have a fellow who has an initial off-grid array with a Radian 8048A (and related e-panel, etc.) and six 410W Canadian solar modules. He has six more of the same modules.but the ideal site for solar is 900 feet away from his batteries and the rest of the system. Yeah, good planning, right? In terms of getting AC power out of his 'new' 6X array, Enphase won't work since he doesn't have an Enphase system. We're looking at perhaps SMA or Chilcon (so the size of the wire run won't be so astronomical). Any suggestions? Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Wed Apr 10 12:47:27 2024 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2024 09:47:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] midnite new inverter In-Reply-To: References: <8A14245E-1302-4506-99B7-FFF309131325@gmail.com> <17492C3A-DDAC-2347-B47C-84D7846CDCBD@hxcore.ol> <0BD48E87-96E7-4ECF-B403-6DEAC78C991A@gmail.com> Message-ID: Just remember that those are "Guidelines" and are meant to help... They are not perfect, if the system is monitored closely they should be okay. I personally would not install any AGM battery with any hybrid inverter as undercharging or even overcharging is common and most often results in this: [image: image.png] In this case the bank was cooked in less than 6 months due to overcharging/over temperature. The battery temp sensor recorded 60+ C temperatures, but the inverter/charger never fully shut off charging. Until the Hybrid inverters have full control over charging Bulk/Absorb Voltage, Absorb Timer, and Control over End Amps, Return Amps or Tail Current, and not using Internal Resistance to determine charging current, I would suggest to sticking with the traditional manufactures when using AGM or Even FLA batteries. FLAs are easier to make work, but we have seen even FLA's cooked dry due to charging or battery temp compensation issues. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 9:14 AM david quattro via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I have not installed an Fortress yet, but I know they are made by Deye > (same Chinese original manufacturer as SolArk inverters) > Here is a link for an excellent instructional by Steve Higgins @ Rolls - > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJqBULN9MgI&pp=ygUWcm9sbHMgc3VycmV0dGUgaGlnZ2lucw%3D%3D > This assumes that Envy comes with the same programming shortcoming as > SolArk, I don't know. In order to effectively use a SolArk with lead acid > batteries you have trick it. This process takes several iterations checking > specific gravity, which means multiple site visits stretched over perhaps a > couple months. The Absorb setting is ineffectual, so Steve's solution is to > employ the Equalize setting to actually achieve Absorption. Carefully > record the settings (voltage, duration, and frequency) that deliver a > consistent specific gravity in range. On the rare occasions you actually > need to equalize, you do it in person. When equalization is complete you > return the settings back to your curated values. > > > > On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 7:28 AM jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Can you explain what changes the eg4 18 inverter has vs the Envy as to LA >> programming? >> >> To me the Envy has a big advantage due to it having AGS warm up/cool down >> that the EG4 does not. >> >> Jay >> >> >> >> >> >> On Apr 10, 2024, at 7:49 AM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> John, >> If you are thinking of pairing the Envy with lead-acid batteries, I would >> strongly suggest not doing it. Even though Fortress sales advertises the >> Envy to be compatible with lead-acid, after trying it in my off-grid home, >> I would emphatically say that it is not. The programming is inadequate, to >> put it kindly. And their support really doesn't have a clue about lead-acid >> - Fortress support literally said that they don't recommend pairing the >> Envy with l-a. However, I don't have an opinion about how it does with >> closed loop Li batteries. >> I did recently install an EG4 18k system, off-grid, with the client's >> knowledge that this was a bit of an experiment for me. Both the Envy and >> the EG4 are made by LuxPower and have been, to date, physically and >> programmatically almost identical. I had stayed away from EG4 since it >> seemed to be primarily aimed at the DIY market. However, the 18k appears to >> be a serious contender so far, although this installation is a fairly low >> stress situation. I've been fairly impressed with the system. While this >> 18k is paired with EG4 Lithium batteries, EG4 has been making adjustments >> to the firmware to make it much more friendly to lead-acid. If you decide >> to go this route, check with EG4 (installer support - ask for Jarrett or >> Colt) to see where they are at with upgrading the firmware. >> I am also eagerly awaiting Midnite's AIO entry... >> >> Howie >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 9:02 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Time will tell where the failure modes are. I still don't like all the >>> eggs in one basket. Do you have to send the units back for repair? Had >>> enough of that with Trace SW series inverters.. >>> For off grid, I'll stick to the tried and true for now. For Grid tie it >>> is just a financial hit. For off-grid power loss it is more important >>> to deal with right away.. >>> >>> I am going to try a Fortress Envy at my off grid home but will keep my >>> Outback field repairable VFXR wired in just in case. I had a massive >>> lightning strike between my house and a guest cabin 1/4 mile away and I >>> lost power from my Fortress Eflex battery at the cabin and my Outback >>> inverter at my house. I replaced the control board on my inverter ( I >>> always keep one in reserve as it is usually the only board failure due to >>> lightning) and was back on line in 1/2 hour and Fortress rushed me a new >>> BMS board for the E-flex and a day later and a half hour swap had it back >>> in service, Now it is a different story with 2 Simpliphi batteries I have >>> from a customer that failed. I have to ship them to California to have >>> them evaluated to see if we had damaged them by misuse. Lots of expense >>> and time lost. >>> >>> >>> >>> John Blittersdorf >>> CV Wind Service / Off Grid Vermont >>> 802-770-8625 >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 11:43 PM Scot Arey via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Wow, are we in the golden age of inverter/chargers? If it had 200-a.p >>>> pass thru it would be near perfect. >>>> >>>> Begs the question: are stand alone charge controllers becoming a >>>> historical artifact? >>>> >>>> Howard "Scot" Arey >>>> Owner, Solar CenTex >>>> 254-300-1228 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 469538 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Wed Apr 10 12:51:12 2024 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2024 09:51:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid array far, far from the batteries In-Reply-To: <007b01da8b65$bd207670$37616350$@OasisMontana.com> References: <007b01da8b65$bd207670$37616350$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: Can all 12 be placed in series without going over the voltage limit of a Barcelona or Hawkes Bay? Nick > On Apr 10, 2024, at 9:40 AM, Chris Daum via RE-wrenches wrote: > > > The crazy things folks do. Dear people: We have a fellow who has an initial off-grid array with a Radian 8048A (and related e-panel, etc.) and six 410W Canadian solar modules. He has six more of the same modules…but the ideal site for solar is 900 feet away from his batteries and the rest of the system. Yeah, good planning, right? > > In terms of getting AC power out of his ‘new’ 6X array, Enphase won’t work since he doesn’t have an Enphase system. We’re looking at perhaps SMA or Chilcon (so the size of the wire run won’t be so astronomical). Any suggestions? > > Best, > > Chris Daum > Oasis Montana Inc. > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > 406-777-4309 fax > www.oasismontana.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Wed Apr 10 12:53:43 2024 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2024 11:53:43 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] midnite new inverter In-Reply-To: References: <8A14245E-1302-4506-99B7-FFF309131325@gmail.com> <17492C3A-DDAC-2347-B47C-84D7846CDCBD@hxcore.ol> <0BD48E87-96E7-4ECF-B403-6DEAC78C991A@gmail.com>, Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Wed Apr 10 12:57:03 2024 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2024 09:57:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid array far, far from the batteries In-Reply-To: <007b01da8b65$bd207670$37616350$@OasisMontana.com> References: <007b01da8b65$bd207670$37616350$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: Pretty cold up there in Montana! Maybe only 10 or 11 in series depending on the module? Nick > On Apr 10, 2024, at 9:40 AM, Chris Daum via RE-wrenches wrote: > > > The crazy things folks do. Dear people: We have a fellow who has an initial off-grid array with a Radian 8048A (and related e-panel, etc.) and six 410W Canadian solar modules. He has six more of the same modules…but the ideal site for solar is 900 feet away from his batteries and the rest of the system. Yeah, good planning, right? > > In terms of getting AC power out of his ‘new’ 6X array, Enphase won’t work since he doesn’t have an Enphase system. We’re looking at perhaps SMA or Chilcon (so the size of the wire run won’t be so astronomical). Any suggestions? > > Best, > > Chris Daum > Oasis Montana Inc. > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > 406-777-4309 fax > www.oasismontana.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 13:00:30 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2024 11:00:30 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] midnite new inverter In-Reply-To: References: <8A14245E-1302-4506-99B7-FFF309131325@gmail.com> <17492C3A-DDAC-2347-B47C-84D7846CDCBD@hxcore.ol> <0BD48E87-96E7-4ECF-B403-6DEAC78C991A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <42CFC909-E9BF-4ED3-B87E-760C4F32740C@gmail.com> Hi David, I’m going to disagree. The fortress and EG4 are made by LUX. It says so right on the cover. And I’ve talked to Fortress about this. Sol Ark is made by Deye Jay > On Apr 10, 2024, at 10:12 AM, david quattro wrote: > > I have not installed an Fortress yet, but I know they are made by Deye (same Chinese original manufacturer as SolArk inverters) > Here is a link for an excellent instructional by Steve Higgins @ Rolls - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJqBULN9MgI&pp=ygUWcm9sbHMgc3VycmV0dGUgaGlnZ2lucw%3D%3D > This assumes that Envy comes with the same programming shortcoming as SolArk, I don't know. In order to effectively use a SolArk with lead acid batteries you have trick it. This process takes several iterations checking specific gravity, which means multiple site visits stretched over perhaps a couple months. The Absorb setting is ineffectual, so Steve's solution is to employ the Equalize setting to actually achieve Absorption. Carefully record the settings (voltage, duration, and frequency) that deliver a consistent specific gravity in range. On the rare occasions you actually need to equalize, you do it in person. When equalization is complete you return the settings back to your curated values. > > > > On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 7:28 AM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Can you explain what changes the eg4 18 inverter has vs the Envy as to LA programming? > > To me the Envy has a big advantage due to it having AGS warm up/cool down that the EG4 does not. > > Jay > > > > > >> On Apr 10, 2024, at 7:49 AM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> >> John, >> If you are thinking of pairing the Envy with lead-acid batteries, I would strongly suggest not doing it. Even though Fortress sales advertises the Envy to be compatible with lead-acid, after trying it in my off-grid home, I would emphatically say that it is not. The programming is inadequate, to put it kindly. And their support really doesn't have a clue about lead-acid - Fortress support literally said that they don't recommend pairing the Envy with l-a. However, I don't have an opinion about how it does with closed loop Li batteries. >> I did recently install an EG4 18k system, off-grid, with the client's knowledge that this was a bit of an experiment for me. Both the Envy and the EG4 are made by LuxPower and have been, to date, physically and programmatically almost identical. I had stayed away from EG4 since it seemed to be primarily aimed at the DIY market. However, the 18k appears to be a serious contender so far, although this installation is a fairly low stress situation. I've been fairly impressed with the system. While this 18k is paired with EG4 Lithium batteries, EG4 has been making adjustments to the firmware to make it much more friendly to lead-acid. If you decide to go this route, check with EG4 (installer support - ask for Jarrett or Colt) to see where they are at with upgrading the firmware. >> I am also eagerly awaiting Midnite's AIO entry... >> >> Howie >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 9:02 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Time will tell where the failure modes are. I still don't like all the eggs in one basket. Do you have to send the units back for repair? Had enough of that with Trace SW series inverters.. >> For off grid, I'll stick to the tried and true for now. For Grid tie it is just a financial hit. For off-grid power loss it is more important to deal with right away.. >> >> I am going to try a Fortress Envy at my off grid home but will keep my Outback field repairable VFXR wired in just in case. I had a massive lightning strike between my house and a guest cabin 1/4 mile away and I lost power from my Fortress Eflex battery at the cabin and my Outback inverter at my house. I replaced the control board on my inverter ( I always keep one in reserve as it is usually the only board failure due to lightning) and was back on line in 1/2 hour and Fortress rushed me a new BMS board for the E-flex and a day later and a half hour swap had it back in service, Now it is a different story with 2 Simpliphi batteries I have from a customer that failed. I have to ship them to California to have them evaluated to see if we had damaged them by misuse. Lots of expense and time lost. >> >> >> >> John Blittersdorf >> CV Wind Service / Off Grid Vermont >> 802-770-8625 >> >> On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 11:43 PM Scot Arey via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Wow, are we in the golden age of inverter/chargers? If it had 200-a.p pass thru it would be near perfect. >> >> Begs the question: are stand alone charge controllers becoming a historical artifact? >> >> Howard "Scot" Arey >> Owner, Solar CenTex >> 254-300-1228 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Wed Apr 10 13:06:03 2024 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2024 12:06:03 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] midnite new inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2482C3A0-48E4-48CA-AE5B-B0F241DBC6CE@mavericksolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 13:16:47 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2024 11:16:47 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid array far, far from the batteries In-Reply-To: <007b01da8b65$bd207670$37616350$@OasisMontana.com> References: <007b01da8b65$bd207670$37616350$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: Hi Chris, If you run all 6 in series that puts you about 2.6% vd with #4 wire about 200vdc vmp and 10 amps. In cold enough weather you’re probably above the FM-100 so would put you in a 600vdc controller. I’d go with 600v controller vs doing AC coupling. More efficient and the more volt you go the smaller the wire. My 2 cents jay > On Apr 10, 2024, at 10:40 AM, Chris Daum via RE-wrenches wrote: > > > The crazy things folks do. Dear people: We have a fellow who has an initial off-grid array with a Radian 8048A (and related e-panel, etc.) and six 410W Canadian solar modules. He has six more of the same modules…but the ideal site for solar is 900 feet away from his batteries and the rest of the system. Yeah, good planning, right? > > In terms of getting AC power out of his ‘new’ 6X array, Enphase won’t work since he doesn’t have an Enphase system. We’re looking at perhaps SMA or Chilcon (so the size of the wire run won’t be so astronomical). Any suggestions? > > Best, > > Chris Daum > Oasis Montana Inc. > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > 406-777-4309 fax > www.oasismontana.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Apr 10 13:25:09 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2024 10:25:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid array far, far from the batteries In-Reply-To: <007b01da8b65$bd207670$37616350$@OasisMontana.com> References: <007b01da8b65$bd207670$37616350$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: Chris: The Outback 100 amp controller operating at a max of 300 VDC might be a good solution. Pondering this further: I suppose a 600 volt charge controller would be better for voltage drop but I suspect one string of 12 would exceed 600 VDC. If true then strings of 6 would exceed 300vdc. If using a FM100 the fall back is strings of 4. Strings of 6 into a 600 volt charge controller is only marginally superior for voltage drop over strings of 4. Using the nameplate wattage you are just over 100 amps at 48VDC satisfying the power criteria. An added benefit is that all of the electronics will communicate. Recent pricing of the 100 seems to indicate the price has dropped significantly making this a good value. It is possible you could combine at the battery location and pull multiple smaller conductors. You’d still need a disconnecting means at the array. Run the numbers. https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/Resources/Voltage_Drop.xls William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 9:41 AM Chris Daum via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > The crazy things folks do. Dear people: We have a fellow who has an > initial off-grid array with a Radian 8048A (and related e-panel, etc.) and > six 410W Canadian solar modules. He has six more of the same modules…but > the ideal site for solar is 900 feet away from his batteries and the rest > of the system. Yeah, good planning, right? > > > > In terms of getting AC power out of his ‘new’ 6X array, Enphase won’t work > since he doesn’t have an Enphase system. We’re looking at perhaps SMA or > Chilcon (so the size of the wire run won’t be so astronomical). Any > suggestions? > > > > Best, > > > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > www.oasismontana.com > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Wed Apr 10 13:32:33 2024 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2024 13:32:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] midnite new inverter In-Reply-To: <2482C3A0-48E4-48CA-AE5B-B0F241DBC6CE@mavericksolar.com> References: <2482C3A0-48E4-48CA-AE5B-B0F241DBC6CE@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: Maverick The new inverter is NOT a rebrand. The Inverter is mainly designed by Midnite Solar, and is manufactured at a Tier 1 facility in Asia. It is a MNS Prodcut through and Through, just missing the cool cabinet and black paint. On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 1:06 PM Maverick Brown wrote: > Logan > > Is MidNite making the AIO or is it rebrand like the other guys? > > If MidNite is actually making it, that adds a whole new level of interest. > MidNite makes great products already. This would be a game changer. > > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > > > On Apr 10, 2024, at 10:54 AM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > All > > As a Beta tester and being a part of the development of the MNS All in > One, MNS is working to ensure that the current limitations from the use > of LA batteries will be addressed and supported. > > MNS is addressing the concerns of using an AOI inverter because failure > will require the R&R of the unit. This AIO is designed to be > completely field serviceable and MNS will stock the boards and will > provide the technical help to get the system back up and running in the > field. > > Thanks > > Logan > > On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 11:01 AM Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Good Morning Wrenches... >> >> When it comes to lead batteries, just be cautious of the all-in-ones and >> some of the hybrid inverters. >> >> Most of these inverters were not designed for Lead batteries and will >> struggle to charge them, resulting in sulfation (undercharging) issues. >> Eventually, this will lead to swelling of VRLA or excessive gassing on >> Flooded Batteries. Unfortunately, many of the "Hybrid" or "All-in-One" >> inverters released in the past 5-8 years are tailored more to >> lithium-chemistry batteries. I can't tell you how many battery banks have >> been cooked over the past couple of years due to the inability to control >> charging settings. >> >> If you can't control the Bulk/Absorb Voltage and Time, as well as the end >> amps termination setpoints, you will generally struggle to get and keep a >> Lead-Acid battery charged regardless of the battery you are using. >> >> I looked at the Midnite site and I don't see a user manual yet, once >> it's posted I'll take a look and see if it's compatible for Rolls >> Batteries, I'm pretty sure it will as Midnight has been asking battery >> charging questions the last couple of years. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager >> t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 >> f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for >> the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged >> material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the >> taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If >> you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or >> destroy this message and all copies. >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 7:29 AM jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Can you explain what changes the eg4 18 inverter has vs the Envy as to >>> LA programming? >>> >>> To me the Envy has a big advantage due to it having AGS warm up/cool >>> down that the EG4 does not. >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Apr 10, 2024, at 7:49 AM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> John, >>> If you are thinking of pairing the Envy with lead-acid batteries, I >>> would strongly suggest not doing it. Even though Fortress sales advertises >>> the Envy to be compatible with lead-acid, after trying it in my off-grid >>> home, I would emphatically say that it is not. The programming is >>> inadequate, to put it kindly. And their support really doesn't have a clue >>> about lead-acid - Fortress support literally said that they don't recommend >>> pairing the Envy with l-a. However, I don't have an opinion about how it >>> does with closed loop Li batteries. >>> I did recently install an EG4 18k system, off-grid, with the client's >>> knowledge that this was a bit of an experiment for me. Both the Envy and >>> the EG4 are made by LuxPower and have been, to date, physically and >>> programmatically almost identical. I had stayed away from EG4 since it >>> seemed to be primarily aimed at the DIY market. However, the 18k appears to >>> be a serious contender so far, although this installation is a fairly low >>> stress situation. I've been fairly impressed with the system. While this >>> 18k is paired with EG4 Lithium batteries, EG4 has been making adjustments >>> to the firmware to make it much more friendly to lead-acid. If you decide >>> to go this route, check with EG4 (installer support - ask for Jarrett or >>> Colt) to see where they are at with upgrading the firmware. >>> I am also eagerly awaiting Midnite's AIO entry... >>> >>> Howie >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 9:02 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Time will tell where the failure modes are. I still don't like all >>>> the eggs in one basket. Do you have to send the units back for repair? Had >>>> enough of that with Trace SW series inverters.. >>>> For off grid, I'll stick to the tried and true for now. For Grid tie >>>> it is just a financial hit. For off-grid power loss it is more important >>>> to deal with right away.. >>>> >>>> I am going to try a Fortress Envy at my off grid home but will keep my >>>> Outback field repairable VFXR wired in just in case. I had a massive >>>> lightning strike between my house and a guest cabin 1/4 mile away and I >>>> lost power from my Fortress Eflex battery at the cabin and my Outback >>>> inverter at my house. I replaced the control board on my inverter ( I >>>> always keep one in reserve as it is usually the only board failure due to >>>> lightning) and was back on line in 1/2 hour and Fortress rushed me a new >>>> BMS board for the E-flex and a day later and a half hour swap had it back >>>> in service, Now it is a different story with 2 Simpliphi batteries I have >>>> from a customer that failed. I have to ship them to California to have >>>> them evaluated to see if we had damaged them by misuse. Lots of expense >>>> and time lost. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> John Blittersdorf >>>> CV Wind Service / Off Grid Vermont >>>> 802-770-8625 >>>> >>>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 11:43 PM Scot Arey via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Wow, are we in the golden age of inverter/chargers? If it had 200-a.p >>>>> pass thru it would be near perfect. >>>>> >>>>> Begs the question: are stand alone charge controllers becoming a >>>>> historical artifact? >>>>> >>>>> Howard "Scot" Arey >>>>> Owner, Solar CenTex >>>>> 254-300-1228 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Wed Apr 10 13:34:13 2024 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2024 10:34:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] midnite new inverter In-Reply-To: <42CFC909-E9BF-4ED3-B87E-760C4F32740C@gmail.com> References: <8A14245E-1302-4506-99B7-FFF309131325@gmail.com> <17492C3A-DDAC-2347-B47C-84D7846CDCBD@hxcore.ol> <0BD48E87-96E7-4ECF-B403-6DEAC78C991A@gmail.com> <42CFC909-E9BF-4ED3-B87E-760C4F32740C@gmail.com> Message-ID: OK thanks for the correction. It's confusing to me because the external chassis is identical -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 13:35:14 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2024 11:35:14 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] midnite new inverter In-Reply-To: <2482C3A0-48E4-48CA-AE5B-B0F241DBC6CE@mavericksolar.com> References: <2482C3A0-48E4-48CA-AE5B-B0F241DBC6CE@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: <4E5F3DD8-AF95-4531-B7F7-AFC575560B5F@gmail.com> This is exactly the situation that the midnite AIO is addressing or similar. Lets say that you go with 11 panels ( and that works keeping it under 600voc). If you go with enphase, thats about $3000 with cable. Plus you’ll need larger wire due to it only being 240vac vs closer to 380vdc for a DC series. That 600v controller will set you back between $1200-2000 with BOS and smaller wire. Using the $2000, and $3000. If the AIO is say $4500. Then for $2500 your getting 3 inputs, 600vdc, AFCI, and all the other bells and whistles. Much higher efficiency than AC coupling. And a 12 kw vs 8kw inverter. And if customer decides to go more solar, then the AIO is already set up to add more with $0 expense on the CC side. A whole new world Jay > On Apr 10, 2024, at 11:06 AM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Logan > > Is MidNite making the AIO or is it rebrand like the other guys? > > If MidNite is actually making it, that adds a whole new level of interest. MidNite makes great products already. This would be a game changer. > > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > > >> On Apr 10, 2024, at 10:54 AM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >>  >> All >> >> As a Beta tester and being a part of the development of the MNS All in One, MNS is working to ensure that the current limitations from the use of LA batteries will be addressed and supported. >> >> MNS is addressing the concerns of using an AOI inverter because failure will require the R&R of the unit. This AIO is designed to be completely field serviceable and MNS will stock the boards and will provide the technical help to get the system back up and running in the field. >> >> Thanks >> >> Logan >> >> On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 11:01 AM Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Good Morning Wrenches... >> >> When it comes to lead batteries, just be cautious of the all-in-ones and some of the hybrid inverters. >> >> Most of these inverters were not designed for Lead batteries and will struggle to charge them, resulting in sulfation (undercharging) issues. Eventually, this will lead to swelling of VRLA or excessive gassing on Flooded Batteries. Unfortunately, many of the "Hybrid" or "All-in-One" inverters released in the past 5-8 years are tailored more to lithium-chemistry batteries. I can't tell you how many battery banks have been cooked over the past couple of years due to the inability to control charging settings. >> >> If you can't control the Bulk/Absorb Voltage and Time, as well as the end amps termination setpoints, you will generally struggle to get and keep a Lead-Acid battery charged regardless of the battery you are using. >> >> I looked at the Midnite site and I don't see a user manual yet, once it's posted I'll take a look and see if it's compatible for Rolls Batteries, I'm pretty sure it will as Midnight has been asking battery charging questions the last couple of years. >> >> >> >> Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager >> t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 >> f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com >> >> CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 7:29 AM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Can you explain what changes the eg4 18 inverter has vs the Envy as to LA programming? >> >> To me the Envy has a big advantage due to it having AGS warm up/cool down that the EG4 does not. >> >> Jay >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Apr 10, 2024, at 7:49 AM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> >>> John, >>> If you are thinking of pairing the Envy with lead-acid batteries, I would strongly suggest not doing it. Even though Fortress sales advertises the Envy to be compatible with lead-acid, after trying it in my off-grid home, I would emphatically say that it is not. The programming is inadequate, to put it kindly. And their support really doesn't have a clue about lead-acid - Fortress support literally said that they don't recommend pairing the Envy with l-a. However, I don't have an opinion about how it does with closed loop Li batteries. >>> I did recently install an EG4 18k system, off-grid, with the client's knowledge that this was a bit of an experiment for me. Both the Envy and the EG4 are made by LuxPower and have been, to date, physically and programmatically almost identical. I had stayed away from EG4 since it seemed to be primarily aimed at the DIY market. However, the 18k appears to be a serious contender so far, although this installation is a fairly low stress situation. I've been fairly impressed with the system. While this 18k is paired with EG4 Lithium batteries, EG4 has been making adjustments to the firmware to make it much more friendly to lead-acid. If you decide to go this route, check with EG4 (installer support - ask for Jarrett or Colt) to see where they are at with upgrading the firmware. >>> I am also eagerly awaiting Midnite's AIO entry... >>> >>> Howie >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 9:02 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> Time will tell where the failure modes are. I still don't like all the eggs in one basket. Do you have to send the units back for repair? Had enough of that with Trace SW series inverters.. >>> For off grid, I'll stick to the tried and true for now. For Grid tie it is just a financial hit. For off-grid power loss it is more important to deal with right away.. >>> >>> I am going to try a Fortress Envy at my off grid home but will keep my Outback field repairable VFXR wired in just in case. I had a massive lightning strike between my house and a guest cabin 1/4 mile away and I lost power from my Fortress Eflex battery at the cabin and my Outback inverter at my house. I replaced the control board on my inverter ( I always keep one in reserve as it is usually the only board failure due to lightning) and was back on line in 1/2 hour and Fortress rushed me a new BMS board for the E-flex and a day later and a half hour swap had it back in service, Now it is a different story with 2 Simpliphi batteries I have from a customer that failed. I have to ship them to California to have them evaluated to see if we had damaged them by misuse. Lots of expense and time lost. >>> >>> >>> >>> John Blittersdorf >>> CV Wind Service / Off Grid Vermont >>> 802-770-8625 >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 11:43 PM Scot Arey via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> Wow, are we in the golden age of inverter/chargers? If it had 200-a.p pass thru it would be near perfect. >>> >>> Begs the question: are stand alone charge controllers becoming a historical artifact? >>> >>> Howard "Scot" Arey >>> Owner, Solar CenTex >>> 254-300-1228 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Apr 10 13:55:22 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2024 10:55:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] midnite new inverter In-Reply-To: <4E5F3DD8-AF95-4531-B7F7-AFC575560B5F@gmail.com> References: <2482C3A0-48E4-48CA-AE5B-B0F241DBC6CE@mavericksolar.com> <4E5F3DD8-AF95-4531-B7F7-AFC575560B5F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hmmm. New world? It does have to run in the field reliably! Schneider has had a 600v controller since 2012. It is all I use. Totally bullet proof reliable. Attached specs. Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [8]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [9] [8] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-04-10 10:35 am, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > This is exactly the situation that the midnite AIO is addressing or > similar. > > Lets say that you go with 11 panels ( and that works keeping it under > 600voc). > > If you go with enphase, thats about $3000 with cable. Plus you'll need > larger wire due to it only being 240vac vs closer to 380vdc for a DC > series. > That 600v controller will set you back between $1200-2000 with BOS and > smaller wire. > > Using the $2000, and $3000. > If the AIO is say $4500. > > Then for $2500 your getting 3 inputs, 600vdc, AFCI, and all the other > bells and whistles. Much higher efficiency than AC coupling. > And a 12 kw vs 8kw inverter. > > And if customer decides to go more solar, then the AIO is already set > up to add more with $0 expense on the CC side. > > A whole new world > > Jay > > On Apr 10, 2024, at 11:06 AM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Logan > > Is MidNite making the AIO or is it rebrand like the other guys? > > If MidNite is actually making it, that adds a whole new level of > interest. MidNite makes great products already. This would be a game > changer. > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > * Solar Commander Remote Power > * SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > On Apr 10, 2024, at 10:54 AM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > All > > As a Beta tester and being a part of the development of the MNS All in > One, MNS is working to ensure that the current limitations from the > use of LA batteries will be addressed and supported. > > MNS is addressing the concerns of using an AOI inverter because failure > will require the R&R of the unit. This AIO is designed to be completely > field serviceable and MNS will stock the boards and will provide the > technical help to get the system back up and running in the field. > > Thanks > > Logan > > On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 11:01 AM Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Good Morning Wrenches... > > When it comes to lead batteries, just be cautious of the all-in-ones > and some of the hybrid inverters. > > Most of these inverters were not designed for Lead batteries and will > struggle to charge them, resulting in sulfation (undercharging) issues. > Eventually, this will lead to swelling of VRLA or excessive gassing on > Flooded Batteries. Unfortunately, many of the "Hybrid" or "All-in-One" > inverters released in the past 5-8 years are tailored more to > lithium-chemistry batteries. I can't tell you how many battery banks > have been cooked over the past couple of years due to the inability to > control charging settings. > > If you can't control the Bulk/Absorb Voltage and Time, as well as the > end amps termination setpoints, you will generally struggle to get and > keep a Lead-Acid battery charged regardless of the battery you are > using. > > I looked at the Midnite site and I don't see a user manual yet, once > it's posted I'll take a look and see if it's compatible for Rolls > Batteries, I'm pretty sure it will as Midnight has been asking battery > charging questions the last couple of years. > > [1] > Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager > t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 > f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com > [2] [3] [4] [5] > > ------------------------- > > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only > for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or > privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use > of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is > prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the > sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. > ------------------------- > > On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 7:29 AM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Can you explain what changes the eg4 18 inverter has vs the Envy as to > LA programming? > > To me the Envy has a big advantage due to it having AGS warm up/cool > down that the EG4 does not. > > Jay > > On Apr 10, 2024, at 7:49 AM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > John, > If you are thinking of pairing the Envy with lead-acid batteries, I > would strongly suggest not doing it. Even though Fortress sales > advertises the Envy to be compatible with lead-acid, after trying it in > my off-grid home, I would emphatically say that it is not. The > programming is inadequate, to put it kindly. And their support really > doesn't have a clue about lead-acid - Fortress support literally said > that they don't recommend pairing the Envy with l-a. However, I don't > have an opinion about how it does with closed loop Li batteries. > I did recently install an EG4 18k system, off-grid, with the client's > knowledge that this was a bit of an experiment for me. Both the Envy > and the EG4 are made by LuxPower and have been, to date, physically and > programmatically almost identical. I had stayed away from EG4 since it > seemed to be primarily aimed at the DIY market. However, the 18k > appears to be a serious contender so far, although this installation is > a fairly low stress situation. I've been fairly impressed with the > system. While this 18k is paired with EG4 Lithium batteries, EG4 has > been making adjustments to the firmware to make it much more friendly > to lead-acid. If you decide to go this route, check with EG4 (installer > support - ask for Jarrett or Colt) to see where they are at with > upgrading the firmware. > I am also eagerly awaiting Midnite's AIO entry... > > Howie > > On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 9:02 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Time will tell where the failure modes are. I still don't like all > the eggs in one basket. Do you have to send the units back for repair? > Had enough of that with Trace SW series inverters.. > For off grid, I'll stick to the tried and true for now. For Grid tie > it is just a financial hit. For off-grid power loss it is more > important to deal with right away.. > > I am going to try a Fortress Envy at my off grid home but will keep my > Outback field repairable VFXR wired in just in case. I had a massive > lightning strike between my house and a guest cabin 1/4 mile away and I > lost power from my Fortress Eflex battery at the cabin and my Outback > inverter at my house. I replaced the control board on my inverter ( I > always keep one in reserve as it is usually the only board failure due > to lightning) and was back on line in 1/2 hour and Fortress rushed me > a new BMS board for the E-flex and a day later and a half hour swap had > it back in service, Now it is a different story with 2 Simpliphi > batteries I have from a customer that failed. I have to ship them to > California to have them evaluated to see if we had damaged them by > misuse. Lots of expense and time lost. > > John Blittersdorf > CV Wind Service / Off Grid Vermont > 802-770-8625 > > On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 11:43 PM Scot Arey via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Wow, are we in the golden age of inverter/chargers? If it had 200-a.p > pass thru it would be near perfect. > > Begs the question: are stand alone charge controllers becoming a > historical artifact? > > Howard "Scot" Arey > Owner, Solar CenTex > 254-300-1228 _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [6] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [7] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [6] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. 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Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: MPPT-100-600-and-MPPT-80-600-Datasheet.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 238026 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed Apr 10 14:08:16 2024 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2024 18:08:16 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid array far, far from the batteries In-Reply-To: References: <007b01da8b65$bd207670$37616350$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: <0F78FC0D-6446-48E6-BD0F-1DD911066277@solarwork.com> I am out of country at the moment, but I think Morningstar has a 600 V controller that’s pretty good sized I can’t give you much spec on it, but you could do the DC run at up to 600 V Dana Orzel C: 208.721.7003 E- dana at solarwork.com On Apr 10, 2024, at 6:57 PM, Nick A Lucchese via RE-wrenches wrote:  Pretty cold up there in Montana! Maybe only 10 or 11 in series depending on the module? Nick On Apr 10, 2024, at 9:40 AM, Chris Daum via RE-wrenches > wrote: The crazy things folks do. Dear people: We have a fellow who has an initial off-grid array with a Radian 8048A (and related e-panel, etc.) and six 410W Canadian solar modules. He has six more of the same modules…but the ideal site for solar is 900 feet away from his batteries and the rest of the system. Yeah, good planning, right? In terms of getting AC power out of his ‘new’ 6X array, Enphase won’t work since he doesn’t have an Enphase system. We’re looking at perhaps SMA or Chilcon (so the size of the wire run won’t be so astronomical). Any suggestions? Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roy at four-winds-energy.com Wed Apr 10 14:20:23 2024 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2024 14:20:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid array far, far from the batteries In-Reply-To: <0F78FC0D-6446-48E6-BD0F-1DD911066277@solarwork.com> References: <007b01da8b65$bd207670$37616350$@OasisMontana.com> <0F78FC0D-6446-48E6-BD0F-1DD911066277@solarwork.com> Message-ID: The Morningstar Tristar MPPT600 60 amp charge controller will accept a PV input voltage up to 425 volts. Above that the controller begins to current limit and that goes to zero above 550 volts. Roy Butler Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 607-324-9747www.four-winds-energy.com Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don’t. “The less people know, the more stubbornly they know it.” Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. On 4/10/2024 2:08 PM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches wrote: > I am out of country at the moment, but I think Morningstar has a 600 V > controller that’s pretty good sized I can’t give you much spec on it, > but you could do the DC run at up to 600 V > Dana Orzel > C: 208.721.7003 > E- dana at solarwork.com > >> On Apr 10, 2024, at 6:57 PM, Nick A Lucchese via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >>  Pretty cold up there in Montana! Maybe only 10 or 11 in series >> depending on the module? >> >> Nick >> >> >> >> >>> On Apr 10, 2024, at 9:40 AM, Chris Daum via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>> The crazy things folks do.Dear people:We have a fellow who has an >>> initial off-grid array with a Radian 8048A (and related e-panel, >>> etc.) and six 410W Canadian solar modules.He has six more of the >>> same modules…but the ideal site for solar is 900 feet away from his >>> batteries and the rest of the system.Yeah, good planning, right? >>> In terms of getting AC power out of his ‘new’ 6X array, Enphase >>> won’t work since he doesn’t have an Enphase system.We’re looking at >>> perhaps SMA or Chilcon (so the size of the wire run won’t be so >>> astronomical).Any suggestions? >>> Best, >>> Chris Daum >>> Oasis Montana Inc. >>> 406-777-4309 or 4321 >>> 406-777-4309 fax >>> www.oasismontana.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>> try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Thu Apr 11 00:02:28 2024 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2024 21:02:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite new inverter In-Reply-To: <42CFC909-E9BF-4ED3-B87E-760C4F32740C@gmail.com> References: <8A14245E-1302-4506-99B7-FFF309131325@gmail.com> <17492C3A-DDAC-2347-B47C-84D7846CDCBD@hxcore.ol> <0BD48E87-96E7-4ECF-B403-6DEAC78C991A@gmail.com> <42CFC909-E9BF-4ED3-B87E-760C4F32740C@gmail.com> Message-ID: I was under the same impression as David. At one point when I looked into it all the electrical specifications appeared identical. Lux isn’t made by Deye? Ripping off designs within China isn’t just exclusive to the US? Good ole inverter manufacturer family incest? Does the main difference only relate to AGS controls or something along those lines? Even that is within the Lux products, Envy and EG4? I’m not into either personally but was dragged into a Solark system two years ago. Doing my best to keep my back strong with transformer based inverters until I can support Midnite. Nick > On Apr 10, 2024, at 10:00 AM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi David, > > I’m going to disagree. > The fortress and EG4 are made by LUX. > It says so right on the cover. > And I’ve talked to Fortress about this. > > Sol Ark is made by Deye > > Jay > >> On Apr 10, 2024, at 10:12 AM, david quattro > wrote: >> >> I have not installed an Fortress yet, but I know they are made by Deye (same Chinese original manufacturer as SolArk inverters) >> Here is a link for an excellent instructional by Steve Higgins @ Rolls - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJqBULN9MgI&pp=ygUWcm9sbHMgc3VycmV0dGUgaGlnZ2lucw%3D%3D >> This assumes that Envy comes with the same programming shortcoming as SolArk, I don't know. In order to effectively use a SolArk with lead acid batteries you have trick it. This process takes several iterations checking specific gravity, which means multiple site visits stretched over perhaps a couple months. The Absorb setting is ineffectual, so Steve's solution is to employ the Equalize setting to actually achieve Absorption. Carefully record the settings (voltage, duration, and frequency) that deliver a consistent specific gravity in range. On the rare occasions you actually need to equalize, you do it in person. When equalization is complete you return the settings back to your curated values. >> >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 7:28 AM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Can you explain what changes the eg4 18 inverter has vs the Envy as to LA programming? >> >> To me the Envy has a big advantage due to it having AGS warm up/cool down that the EG4 does not. >> >> Jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Apr 11 11:39:24 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2024 08:39:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite new inverter In-Reply-To: References: <8A14245E-1302-4506-99B7-FFF309131325@gmail.com> <17492C3A-DDAC-2347-B47C-84D7846CDCBD@hxcore.ol> <0BD48E87-96E7-4ECF-B403-6DEAC78C991A@gmail.com> <42CFC909-E9BF-4ED3-B87E-760C4F32740C@gmail.com> Message-ID: I wish bob and the boyz good luck on this product. Always support North American companies!! I do not have much experience in the all in ones, but the one thing I would look for is how it responds to imbalance on split phase loads. The bad experiences on (won't say the Chinese name of inverter) was it had trouble starting a fire pump that was 120vac. it also had trouble with large 120vac air compressors. Even worse, not only did it have trouble starting the load, it shut down the inverter. I would not want that for sure it the fire was raging up the hill. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-04-10 9:02 pm, Nick A Lucchese via RE-wrenches wrote: > I was under the same impression as David. At one point when I looked > into it all the electrical specifications appeared identical. Lux isn't > made by Deye? Ripping off designs within China isn't just exclusive to > the US? Good ole inverter manufacturer family incest? Does the main > difference only relate to AGS controls or something along those lines? > Even that is within the Lux products, Envy and EG4? I'm not into either > personally but was dragged into a Solark system two years ago. Doing my > best to keep my back strong with transformer based inverters until I > can support Midnite. > > Nick > > On Apr 10, 2024, at 10:00 AM, jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi David, > > I'm going to disagree. > The fortress and EG4 are made by LUX. > It says so right on the cover. > And I've talked to Fortress about this. > > Sol Ark is made by Deye > > Jay > > On Apr 10, 2024, at 10:12 AM, david quattro > wrote: > > I have not installed an Fortress yet, but I know they are made by Deye > (same Chinese original manufacturer as SolArk inverters) > Here is a link for an excellent instructional by Steve Higgins @ Rolls > - > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJqBULN9MgI&pp=ygUWcm9sbHMgc3VycmV0dGUgaGlnZ2lucw%3D%3D > This assumes that Envy comes with the same programming shortcoming as > SolArk, I don't know. In order to effectively use a SolArk with lead > acid batteries you have trick it. This process takes several iterations > checking specific gravity, which means multiple site visits stretched > over perhaps a couple months. The Absorb setting is ineffectual, so > Steve's solution is to employ the Equalize setting to actually achieve > Absorption. Carefully record the settings (voltage, duration, and > frequency) that deliver a consistent specific gravity in range. On the > rare occasions you actually need to equalize, you do it in person. When > equalization is complete you return the settings back to your curated > values. > > On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 7:28 AM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Can you explain what changes the eg4 18 inverter has vs the Envy as to > LA programming? > > To me the Envy has a big advantage due to it having AGS warm up/cool > down that the EG4 does not. > > Jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Fri Apr 12 00:30:23 2024 From: frenergy at psln.com (Bill Battagin) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2024 21:30:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] midnite new inverter In-Reply-To: References: <8A14245E-1302-4506-99B7-FFF309131325@gmail.com> <17492C3A-DDAC-2347-B47C-84D7846CDCBD@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: John,             Just curious if you had SPDs (like Midnites) in either system?  AC side, DC side Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, owner 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) CA. C10 Lic # 874049 Solar Powered since 1982 Home of the Sunny Side Up On 4/10/2024 6:01 AM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote: > Time will tell where the failure modes are.   I still don't like all > the eggs in one basket. Do you have to send the units back for > repair?  Had enough of that with Trace SW series inverters.. > For off grid, I'll stick to the tried and true for now. For Grid tie > it is just a financial hit.  For off-grid power loss it is more > important to deal with right away.. > > I am going to try a Fortress Envy at my off grid home but will keep my > Outback field repairable VFXR wired in just in case. I had a massive > lightning strike between my house and a guest cabin 1/4 mile away and > I lost power from my Fortress Eflex battery at the cabin and my > Outback inverter at my house.  I replaced the control board on my > inverter ( I always keep one in reserve as it is usually the only > board failure due to lightning)  and was back on line in 1/2 hour and > Fortress rushed me a new BMS board for the E-flex and a day later and > a half hour swap had it back in service,  Now it is a different story > with 2 Simpliphi batteries I have from a customer that failed.  I have > to ship them to California to have them evaluated to see if we had > damaged them by misuse. Lots of expense and time lost. > > > John Blittersdorf > CV Wind Service / Off Grid Vermont > 802-770-8625 > > On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 11:43 PM Scot Arey via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Wow, are we in the golden age of inverter/chargers? If it had > 200-a.p pass thru it would be near perfect. > > Begs the question: are stand alone charge controllers becoming a > historical artifact? > > Howard "Scot" Arey > Owner, Solar CenTex > 254-300-1228 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 09:09:28 2024 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2024 09:09:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] midnite new inverter In-Reply-To: References: <8A14245E-1302-4506-99B7-FFF309131325@gmail.com> <17492C3A-DDAC-2347-B47C-84D7846CDCBD@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: Bill, Now that you mention it I did not have an SPD near the inverter, I have one on 1 of 2 TOP Racks, other rack with old Delta... My inverter lives on my workbench to allow swapping other inverters in for load testing using my whole house with everything connected to ancient wiring which did not include an SPD. I put them on all my customers' systems and have had no issues on most of them and have never had to replace one. . I have removed lots of those grey cans but have not taken care of my own system !!! The Fortress eflex was not fully protected either. That strike would have been the perfect test of the SPD's if I had them all installed. I had a perfect real world test of Outbacks ACA with surge protection on two GVFX inverters that had annual lightning failure until I installed their surge protectors. There have been no more failures since (at least 10 years) The lightning was so severe at that location that the power company was constantly having issues on that power line. John On Fri, Apr 12, 2024 at 12:31 AM Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > John, > > Just curious if you had SPDs (like Midnites) in either > system? AC side, DC side > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, owner > 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) > 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) > CA. C10 Lic # 874049 > Solar Powered since 1982 > Home of the Sunny Side Up > > On 4/10/2024 6:01 AM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Time will tell where the failure modes are. I still don't like all the > eggs in one basket. Do you have to send the units back for repair? Had > enough of that with Trace SW series inverters.. > For off grid, I'll stick to the tried and true for now. For Grid tie it > is just a financial hit. For off-grid power loss it is more important > to deal with right away.. > > I am going to try a Fortress Envy at my off grid home but will keep my > Outback field repairable VFXR wired in just in case. I had a massive > lightning strike between my house and a guest cabin 1/4 mile away and I > lost power from my Fortress Eflex battery at the cabin and my Outback > inverter at my house. I replaced the control board on my inverter ( I > always keep one in reserve as it is usually the only board failure due to > lightning) and was back on line in 1/2 hour and Fortress rushed me a new > BMS board for the E-flex and a day later and a half hour swap had it back > in service, Now it is a different story with 2 Simpliphi batteries I have > from a customer that failed. I have to ship them to California to have > them evaluated to see if we had damaged them by misuse. Lots of expense > and time lost. > > > > John Blittersdorf > CV Wind Service / Off Grid Vermont > 802-770-8625 > > On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 11:43 PM Scot Arey via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Wow, are we in the golden age of inverter/chargers? If it had 200-a.p >> pass thru it would be near perfect. >> >> Begs the question: are stand alone charge controllers becoming a >> historical artifact? >> >> Howard "Scot" Arey >> Owner, Solar CenTex >> 254-300-1228 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > Virus-free.www.avast.com > > <#m_492919807829329248_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pieter at offgridenterprises.org Fri Apr 12 10:32:09 2024 From: pieter at offgridenterprises.org (pieter offgridenterprises.org) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2024 14:32:09 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] midnite new inverter In-Reply-To: References: <8A14245E-1302-4506-99B7-FFF309131325@gmail.com> <17492C3A-DDAC-2347-B47C-84D7846CDCBD@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: Just as a point of clarification: The Delta lightning arrestors (gray cans) are not surge arrestors and are not designed to protect sensitive electronics. They are lightning arrestors, it says so right on them. They are a spark Gap device and work on Dv/DT. The lightning arrestors do work for the designed purpose and are a good idea as a first line of defense. The surge arrestors like the MNSPD series are by definition a surge arrestor and specific break over voltages and should be used on all input and output connection points on a system. I would ever recommend removing a delta lightning arrestor, but would encourage installers to add a surge arrestor. The Delta lightning arrestors are useful to protect things like stator windings, transformers, and conductors, but they offer little protection for electronics like a surge arrestor is designed to do. Pieter Huebner Project Manager Of grid Enterprises From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, April 12, 2024 8:09 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: John Blittersdorf Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] midnite new inverter Bill, Now that you mention it I did not have an SPD near the inverter, I have one on 1 of 2 TOP Racks, other rack with old Delta... My inverter lives on my workbench to allow swapping other inverters in for load testing using my whole house with everything connected to ancient wiring which did not include an SPD. I put them on all my customers' systems and have had no issues on most of them and have never had to replace one. . I have removed lots of those grey cans but have not taken care of my own system !!! The Fortress eflex was not fully protected either. That strike would have been the perfect test of the SPD's if I had them all installed. I had a perfect real world test of Outbacks ACA with surge protection on two GVFX inverters that had annual lightning failure until I installed their surge protectors. There have been no more failures since (at least 10 years) The lightning was so severe at that location that the power company was constantly having issues on that power line. John On Fri, Apr 12, 2024 at 12:31 AM Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches > wrote: John, Just curious if you had SPDs (like Midnites) in either system? AC side, DC side Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, owner 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) CA. C10 Lic # 874049 Solar Powered since 1982 Home of the Sunny Side Up On 4/10/2024 6:01 AM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote: Time will tell where the failure modes are. I still don't like all the eggs in one basket. Do you have to send the units back for repair? Had enough of that with Trace SW series inverters.. For off grid, I'll stick to the tried and true for now. For Grid tie it is just a financial hit. For off-grid power loss it is more important to deal with right away.. I am going to try a Fortress Envy at my off grid home but will keep my Outback field repairable VFXR wired in just in case. I had a massive lightning strike between my house and a guest cabin 1/4 mile away and I lost power from my Fortress Eflex battery at the cabin and my Outback inverter at my house. I replaced the control board on my inverter ( I always keep one in reserve as it is usually the only board failure due to lightning) and was back on line in 1/2 hour and Fortress rushed me a new BMS board for the E-flex and a day later and a half hour swap had it back in service, Now it is a different story with 2 Simpliphi batteries I have from a customer that failed. I have to ship them to California to have them evaluated to see if we had damaged them by misuse. Lots of expense and time lost. John Blittersdorf CV Wind Service / Off Grid Vermont 802-770-8625 On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 11:43 PM Scot Arey via RE-wrenches > wrote: Wow, are we in the golden age of inverter/chargers? If it had 200-a.p pass thru it would be near perfect. Begs the question: are stand alone charge controllers becoming a historical artifact? Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex 254-300-1228 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [https://s-install.avcdn.net/ipm/preview/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif] Virus-free.www.avast.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Fri Apr 12 10:57:08 2024 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2024 04:57:08 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15kW 200A Load Breaker short-circuit rating? Message-ID: Aloha All, Does anyone out there know the short-circuit rating of the 200A load breaker on the SOL-Ark 15kW Outdoor. The manual and spec sheet do not list it. Tech support did not know, which is concerning. Aloha, Lou Russo Owner lou at spreesolarsystems.com 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Fri Apr 12 11:26:52 2024 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2024 05:26:52 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15kW 200A Load Breaker short-circuit rating? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Aloha All, Sorry, I was confusing my terms. Coffee has yet to kick in. I am looking for the AIR rating. Aloha, Lou Russo Owner lou at spreesolarsystems.com 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 On Fri, Apr 12, 2024 at 4:57 AM Lou Russo wrote: > Aloha All, > > Does anyone out there know the short-circuit rating of the 200A load > breaker on the SOL-Ark 15kW Outdoor. > > The manual and spec sheet do not list it. Tech support did not know, which > is concerning. > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > Owner > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > 808 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarwks at cybermesa.com Fri Apr 12 13:36:46 2024 From: solarwks at cybermesa.com (Carl Hansen) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2024 11:36:46 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ironridge ballasted BX on the ground In-Reply-To: References: <66EF7FA0-3159-4F55-AC5D-CCCFB04DCD43@me.com> Message-ID: <65efe25b-377c-494b-a58b-be7ea2b16253@cybermesa.com> Nick,   In New Mexico it was popular on flat roof homes to lay down pressure treated 4x4's and lag your L-feet onto these then weight them down with cinder blocks filled with concrete, this would be an inexpensive temporary option.    Carl Hansen    Hansen&Sun Electric On 2024-04-09 2:58 PM, AE Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Are helical piles overkill for what you are trying to do? They can be > unscrewed when you are done so nothing is left behind. > > Adam Katzman (he/him) > Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator > www.AutonomousEnergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > > > On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 4:17 PM Nick A Lucchese via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Greetings Wrenches, > > Has anyone utilized any ballasted style commercial roof rack > solutions directly on the ground? I have an upcoming project that > is only predicted to be left in place for around 5 years and is on > land expected to be put back as it was found therefore concrete is > out of the question. I’ve successfully made temporary arrays with > standard rails and tilts by pinning 2x wood material to grade but > this one calls for something lower in profile. Very minimal use is > expected during winter months so the lower production of a 10 > degree tilt is not an issue. The Ironridge BX seems like it would > be ideal and have been told at conferences and distributor shows > that it would work but figure one of you may have experience with > this product or something more appropriate and affordable? Perhaps > even go for the bonus of something with a 15 degree tilt if it > exists? I realize weeds and grasses will be a factor as well but > client can come up with many low tech solutions for that aspect. > The grade is quite flat, few rocks and site prep can certainly > improve even more before the project begins. > > Thanks for the wisdom and experience, Nick > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Fri Apr 12 15:33:22 2024 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2024 09:33:22 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15kW 200A Load Breaker short-circuit rating? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 6kA in case anyone ever needs it. Aloha, Lou Russo Owner lou at spreesolarsystems.com 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 On Fri, Apr 12, 2024 at 5:26 AM Lou Russo wrote: > Aloha All, > > Sorry, I was confusing my terms. Coffee has yet to kick in. > > I am looking for the AIR rating. > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > Owner > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > 808 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > > > On Fri, Apr 12, 2024 at 4:57 AM Lou Russo > wrote: > >> Aloha All, >> >> Does anyone out there know the short-circuit rating of the 200A load >> breaker on the SOL-Ark 15kW Outdoor. >> >> The manual and spec sheet do not list it. Tech support did not know, >> which is concerning. >> >> Aloha, >> >> Lou Russo >> Owner >> lou at spreesolarsystems.com >> 808 345 6762 >> Spree Solar Systems LLC >> CT-34322 >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Sat Apr 13 18:06:45 2024 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2024 15:06:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ironridge ballasted BX on the ground In-Reply-To: <65efe25b-377c-494b-a58b-be7ea2b16253@cybermesa.com> References: <66EF7FA0-3159-4F55-AC5D-CCCFB04DCD43@me.com> <65efe25b-377c-494b-a58b-be7ea2b16253@cybermesa.com> Message-ID: <3ED3FB13-8782-45F6-92C9-8AB348610711@me.com> Thanks Carl. I’ve been doing something similar with 2x4 and 2x6’s over the years. Affordable and less toxic cedar is readily abundant in our area too. Just drilling holes through it and pinning to the ground with concrete form stakes has worked well even in winds approaching 100 mph. Between these recommendations and Glenn’s Corigy recommendation the client now has some solutions proposed in the $.16 to .40 per watt range. All up to her now! Enjoy your weekend everyone, Nick > On Apr 12, 2024, at 10:36 AM, Carl Hansen via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Nick, > > In New Mexico it was popular on flat roof homes to lay down pressure treated 4x4's and lag your L-feet onto these then weight them down with cinder blocks filled with concrete, this would be an inexpensive temporary option. > > Carl Hansen > > Hansen&Sun Electric > > On 2024-04-09 2:58 PM, AE Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: >> Are helical piles overkill for what you are trying to do? They can be unscrewed when you are done so nothing is left behind. >> >> Adam Katzman (he/him) >> Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator >> www.AutonomousEnergies.com >> (518) 567-1468 >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 4:17 PM Nick A Lucchese via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Greetings Wrenches, >> >> Has anyone utilized any ballasted style commercial roof rack solutions directly on the ground? I have an upcoming project that is only predicted to be left in place for around 5 years and is on land expected to be put back as it was found therefore concrete is out of the question. I’ve successfully made temporary arrays with standard rails and tilts by pinning 2x wood material to grade but this one calls for something lower in profile. Very minimal use is expected during winter months so the lower production of a 10 degree tilt is not an issue. The Ironridge BX seems like it would be ideal and have been told at conferences and distributor shows that it would work but figure one of you may have experience with this product or something more appropriate and affordable? Perhaps even go for the bonus of something with a 15 degree tilt if it exists? I realize weeds and grasses will be a factor as well but client can come up with many low tech solutions for that aspect. The grade is quite flat, few rocks and site prep can certainly improve even more before the project begins. >> >> Thanks for the wisdom and experience, Nick >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Tue Apr 16 12:07:18 2024 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2024 09:07:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Opticsre reCAPTCHA snag Message-ID: <969519E5-1486-4B89-BD65-AA64E750AB65@me.com> Greetings Wrenches, Has anyone created a new system profile successfully within the last few days? I’m only able to get past the first page of selecting the equipment then on the second page where we input the MAC address there is an immediate red prompt saying "ERROR for site owner: Invalid site key”. Occurring regardless of adding a valid MAC address or not. I’ve got 40+ sites on Opticsre successfully and have been through this setup many times but this is a new glitch. Different browsers are acting the same way. Emailed tech support but they usually take days, figured I’d see what anyone else might be encountering. Enjoy the sunshine, Nick From maverick at mavericksolar.com Tue Apr 16 13:01:57 2024 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2024 12:01:57 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Opticsre reCAPTCHA snag In-Reply-To: <969519E5-1486-4B89-BD65-AA64E750AB65@me.com> References: <969519E5-1486-4B89-BD65-AA64E750AB65@me.com> Message-ID: <8851A7EE-96E3-4416-9BED-4807EDC2EBCF@mavericksolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: preview.png Type: image/png Size: 134209 bytes Desc: not available URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 10:56:37 2024 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (David Palumbo) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2024 14:56:37 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OutBack inverter repair. Message-ID: Wrenches, Any up-to-date recommendations for repair of OutBack Inverters. Preferably eastern U.S. if possible. Thanks, Dave Palumbo Hyde Park, VT 802 371-8678 voice or text -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirpal at oregonsolarworks.com Wed Apr 17 11:15:39 2024 From: kirpal at oregonsolarworks.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2024 08:15:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OutBack inverter repair. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Zonna Energy On Wed, Apr 17, 2024, 7:58 AM David Palumbo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches, > > Any up-to-date recommendations for repair of OutBack Inverters. Preferably > eastern U.S. if possible. > > Thanks, > Dave Palumbo > Hyde Park, VT > 802 371-8678 voice or text > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at getpimby.com Wed Apr 17 11:43:55 2024 From: matt at getpimby.com (Matt Sherald) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2024 11:43:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OutBack inverter repair. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Dave, I sent an out-of-warranty GVFX to Outback late last year. I'd personally replaced all three boards and still no joy. The repair cost was reasonable ~$450, but UPS was a steep way to ship it. -Matt On Wed, Apr 17, 2024 at 10:59 AM David Palumbo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches, > > Any up-to-date recommendations for repair of OutBack Inverters. Preferably > eastern U.S. if possible. > > Thanks, > Dave Palumbo > Hyde Park, VT > 802 371-8678 voice or text > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC 304-704-5943 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Mon Apr 22 09:29:00 2024 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2024 08:29:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anybody else caught up with the Lumos urgent recall? Message-ID: <057d01da94b9$0990b4f0$1cb21ed0$@solarcentex.com> First time seeing this in 10+ years: Lumos sent out urgent recall for improper architecture/design of its junction boxes on Lumos Vision modules. Not all effected, but those with certain ribbon count going to the junction box are said to have some undefined risk in partial shading conditions. So our first customer who opted to use the Vision line of modules instead of the old LSX now has a $50k solar pergola turned off with no answer from Lumos on warranty replacement except for new modules inbound around July. Questions on if Lumos will pay labor for deinstallation and reinstallation have gone unanswered. Also unanswered is reimbursement for lost production. Anybody else caught up in this and having the same frustrations? Makes we wonder if standard warranty boilerplate language is applicable or if this faulty design of module a bigger issue that might supersede the manufacturer-centric protections. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 136365 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: pergola pic.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 593014 bytes Desc: not available URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Mon Apr 22 11:01:59 2024 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2024 08:01:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anybody else caught up with the Lumos urgent recall? In-Reply-To: <057d01da94b9$0990b4f0$1cb21ed0$@solarcentex.com> References: <057d01da94b9$0990b4f0$1cb21ed0$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: wow. Sounds like a class action lawsuit if they’re not careful. I’ve never heard of any module manufacturer pay for lost production, but they need to cover parts and labor or they will be sued, and they will lose. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gowdyelectriccambria at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 09:00:02 2024 From: gowdyelectriccambria at gmail.com (Jim Gowdy) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2024 06:00:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV/Charge Controller Troubleshoot Help Message-ID: I'm troubleshooting the solar aspect of a small offgrid 120v outback system and need some opinions. The customer was complaining that the generator was running too much so I went out to their property and investigated. The solar array consists of 16 total panels (4 strings of 4). At the combiner box, I took the voltage and amperage reading of each string and found the following......BREAKER 1 (85VDC/8.87A) BREAKER 2 (84.5VDC/8.9A) BREAKER 3 (.03VDC/0A) BREAKER 4(85VDC/8.89A). Breaker 3 string was not producing and so I did a fix and then read (87.1VDC/8.43A). After reviewing the online monitor since that fix from a few days prior I'm realizing that the first day after had 4.5KWH production, second day had 0.7KWH production, and yesterday had 0.3KWH production.....sun has been out without clouds. The 60A Outback charge controller shows there is PV voltage, but noticed it was in "silent mode" a good amount of time. Charge controller is old, but all the other equipment was updated about a year and a half ago. I was wondering if there is a way to diagnose if the charge controller is bad without just replacing it and what does it mean when it's in "silent mode". Another side note is that their generator threw an AGS fault code on the MATE3 controller and found that the generator has problems so I ended up turning from "auto" to "off" -- Jim with Gowdy Electric Cambria, Ca 93428 business 805 927 2630 cell 805 975 5279 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 09:52:47 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2024 06:52:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV/Charge Controller Troubleshoot Help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: HI Jim, The CC is sure suspect. You didn’t mention what the battery voltage is. Those CC have a hard PV watt input limit. You can try and set it back to factory default and then reprogram, sometimes that works. I don’t use the FM-60, but always the FM-80 because of the fan replacement. the 80 takes 3 minutes, the 60 takes 2 hours. jay > On Apr 23, 2024, at 6:00 AM, Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I'm troubleshooting the solar aspect of a small offgrid 120v outback system and need some opinions. The customer was complaining that the generator was running too much so I went out to their property and investigated. The solar array consists of 16 total panels (4 strings of 4). At the combiner box, I took the voltage and amperage reading of each string and found the following......BREAKER 1 (85VDC/8.87A) BREAKER 2 (84.5VDC/8.9A) BREAKER 3 (.03VDC/0A) BREAKER 4(85VDC/8.89A). Breaker 3 string was not producing and so I did a fix and then read (87.1VDC/8.43A). After reviewing the online monitor since that fix from a few days prior I'm realizing that the first day after had 4.5KWH production, second day had 0.7KWH production, and yesterday had 0.3KWH production.....sun has been out without clouds. The 60A Outback charge controller shows there is PV voltage, but noticed it was in "silent mode" a good amount of time. Charge controller is old, but all the other equipment was updated about a year and a half ago. I was wondering if there is a way to diagnose if the charge controller is bad without just replacing it and what does it mean when it's in "silent mode". Another side note is that their generator threw an AGS fault code on the MATE3 controller and found that the generator has problems so I ended up turning from "auto" to "off" > -- > Jim with Gowdy Electric > Cambria, Ca 93428 > business 805 927 2630 > cell 805 975 5279 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 09:58:09 2024 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2024 06:58:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV/Charge Controller Troubleshoot Help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00883669-6406-4DD6-95EF-7400DF838466@gmail.com> It may be the fan. I had an FM 80 where the fan went bad that caused very limited solar production throughout the day. Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > On Apr 23, 2024, at 6:54 AM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > HI Jim, > > The CC is sure suspect. > You didn’t mention what the battery voltage is. > Those CC have a hard PV watt input limit. > > You can try and set it back to factory default and then reprogram, sometimes that works. > > I don’t use the FM-60, but always the FM-80 because of the fan replacement. the 80 takes 3 minutes, the 60 takes 2 hours. > > jay > >> On Apr 23, 2024, at 6:00 AM, Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> I'm troubleshooting the solar aspect of a small offgrid 120v outback system and need some opinions. The customer was complaining that the generator was running too much so I went out to their property and investigated. The solar array consists of 16 total panels (4 strings of 4). At the combiner box, I took the voltage and amperage reading of each string and found the following......BREAKER 1 (85VDC/8.87A) BREAKER 2 (84.5VDC/8.9A) BREAKER 3 (.03VDC/0A) BREAKER 4(85VDC/8.89A). Breaker 3 string was not producing and so I did a fix and then read (87.1VDC/8.43A). After reviewing the online monitor since that fix from a few days prior I'm realizing that the first day after had 4.5KWH production, second day had 0.7KWH production, and yesterday had 0.3KWH production.....sun has been out without clouds. The 60A Outback charge controller shows there is PV voltage, but noticed it was in "silent mode" a good amount of time. Charge controller is old, but all the other equipment was updated about a year and a half ago. I was wondering if there is a way to diagnose if the charge controller is bad without just replacing it and what does it mean when it's in "silent mode". Another side note is that their generator threw an AGS fault code on the MATE3 controller and found that the generator has problems so I ended up turning from "auto" to "off" >> -- >> Jim with Gowdy Electric >> Cambria, Ca 93428 >> business 805 927 2630 >> cell 805 975 5279 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From gowdyelectriccambria at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 10:27:35 2024 From: gowdyelectriccambria at gmail.com (Jim Gowdy) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2024 07:27:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV/Charge Controller Troubleshoot Help In-Reply-To: <00883669-6406-4DD6-95EF-7400DF838466@gmail.com> References: <00883669-6406-4DD6-95EF-7400DF838466@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the input. The battery is a 48v set up and without having the generator backup the voltage is starting to get to 46v and below. I hope I didn’t make a mistake, but I did a quick calc thinking about the input limits of the CC and got 2400w based on the solar panel nameplate which seems to be within its limit, but just above 3000w based on my readings which is right above its limit. Some notes about the solar array is 4 strings of 4 panels and panels in each string are wired in series The solar panel nameplate PMax is 150w, Voc is 22.7v, Isc is 8.33a. I’ll look into the reset option and defective fan issue. I assume I’ll need to replace the CC, and I will upgrade to an 80 which seems like a better option. Thanks for the advise Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 23, 2024, at 7:00 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > It may be the fan. I had an FM 80 where the fan went bad that caused very limited solar production throughout the day. > > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > >> On Apr 23, 2024, at 6:54 AM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> HI Jim, >> >> The CC is sure suspect. >> You didn’t mention what the battery voltage is. >> Those CC have a hard PV watt input limit. >> >> You can try and set it back to factory default and then reprogram, sometimes that works. >> >> I don’t use the FM-60, but always the FM-80 because of the fan replacement. the 80 takes 3 minutes, the 60 takes 2 hours. >> >> jay >> >>>> On Apr 23, 2024, at 6:00 AM, Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> I'm troubleshooting the solar aspect of a small offgrid 120v outback system and need some opinions. The customer was complaining that the generator was running too much so I went out to their property and investigated. The solar array consists of 16 total panels (4 strings of 4). At the combiner box, I took the voltage and amperage reading of each string and found the following......BREAKER 1 (85VDC/8.87A) BREAKER 2 (84.5VDC/8.9A) BREAKER 3 (.03VDC/0A) BREAKER 4(85VDC/8.89A). Breaker 3 string was not producing and so I did a fix and then read (87.1VDC/8.43A). After reviewing the online monitor since that fix from a few days prior I'm realizing that the first day after had 4.5KWH production, second day had 0.7KWH production, and yesterday had 0.3KWH production.....sun has been out without clouds. The 60A Outback charge controller shows there is PV voltage, but noticed it was in "silent mode" a good amount of time. Charge controller is old, but all the other equipment was updated about a year and a half ago. I was wondering if there is a way to diagnose if the charge controller is bad without just replacing it and what does it mean when it's in "silent mode". Another side note is that their generator threw an AGS fault code on the MATE3 controller and found that the generator has problems so I ended up turning from "auto" to "off" >>> -- >>> Jim with Gowdy Electric >>> Cambria, Ca 93428 >>> business 805 927 2630 >>> cell 805 975 5279 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From coresolar at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 10:44:28 2024 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2024 09:44:28 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anybody else caught up with the Lumos urgent recall? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Scott, You are not the only one. We have at least one project that falls under the Vision module recall, and our O&M Director is reporting that Lumos hasn't exactly been forthcoming with their plans for how the recall will actually proceed. I think the manufacturing flaw (and the potential risk) is fairly well understood at this point. You correctly pointed out that it is related to the junction boxes, which, of course, are where the bypass diodes are located. My understanding is that they simply ran a single ribbon to some junction boxes, which effectively provides an electrical path 'in' to the diodes but no 'out' path. So, those cell substrings - that would otherwise be protected by the diodes - are essentially unprotected from the thermal effects of partial/hard shading. As a result, we have seen hotspot buildup - that would otherwise be prevented by the diodes - lead to shattered glass and even *melted* glass in one case where an internal arc fault apparently went undetected by the inverter. It is interesting to note that this damage is entirely internally-generated, not due to some sort of external factor (e.g., projectile impact). See attached damage photos, along with an example of the manufacturing flaw. -- Corey Shalanski Cherry Street Energy Atlanta, GA On Mon, Apr 22, 2024 at 8:29 AM wrote: > > First time seeing this in 10+ years: Lumos sent out urgent recall for > improper architecture/design of its junction boxes on Lumos Vision modules. > Not all effected, but those with certain ribbon count going to the junction > box are said to have some undefined risk in partial shading conditions. > > So our first customer who opted to use the Vision line of modules instead > of the old LSX now has a $50k solar pergola turned off with no answer from > Lumos on warranty replacement except for new modules inbound around July. > Questions on if Lumos will pay labor for deinstallation and reinstallation > have gone unanswered. Also unanswered is reimbursement for lost production. > > Anybody else caught up in this and having the same frustrations? Makes we > wonder if standard warranty boilerplate language is applicable or if this > faulty design of module a bigger issue that might supersede the > manufacturer-centric protections. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Lumos Vision Module - Hotspot damage.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 561384 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Lumos Vision Module - Diode busing.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 225008 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Lumos Vision Module - Melted glass.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 511601 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Apr 23 14:19:35 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2024 11:19:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV/Charge Controller Troubleshoot Help In-Reply-To: <00883669-6406-4DD6-95EF-7400DF838466@gmail.com> References: <00883669-6406-4DD6-95EF-7400DF838466@gmail.com> Message-ID: If the fan fails would there be an error message? As always, I looked this up before posting. The manual is not clear on the matter. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2024 6:58 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: MDElectricSolar Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV/Charge Controller Troubleshoot Help It may be the fan. I had an FM 80 where the fan went bad that caused very limited solar production throughout the day. Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > On Apr 23, 2024, at 6:54 AM, jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > HI Jim, > > The CC is sure suspect. > You didn’t mention what the battery voltage is. > Those CC have a hard PV watt input limit. > > You can try and set it back to factory default and then reprogram, > sometimes that works. > > I don’t use the FM-60, but always the FM-80 because of the fan > replacement. the 80 takes 3 minutes, the 60 takes 2 hours. > > jay > >> On Apr 23, 2024, at 6:00 AM, Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> I'm troubleshooting the solar aspect of a small offgrid 120v outback >> system and need some opinions. The customer was complaining that the >> generator was running too much so I went out to their property and >> investigated. The solar array consists of 16 total panels (4 strings of >> 4). At the combiner box, I took the voltage and amperage reading of each >> string and found the following......BREAKER 1 (85VDC/8.87A) BREAKER 2 >> (84.5VDC/8.9A) BREAKER 3 (.03VDC/0A) BREAKER 4(85VDC/8.89A). Breaker 3 >> string was not producing and so I did a fix and then read >> (87.1VDC/8.43A). After reviewing the online monitor since that fix from >> a few days prior I'm realizing that the first day after had 4.5KWH >> production, second day had 0.7KWH production, and yesterday had 0.3KWH >> production.....sun has been out without clouds. The 60A Outback charge >> controller shows there is PV voltage, but noticed it was in "silent mode" >> a good amount of time. Charge controller is old, but all the other >> equipment was updated about a year and a half ago. I was wondering if >> there is a way to diagnose if the charge controller is bad without just >> replacing it and what does it mean when it's in "silent mode". Another >> side note is that their generator threw an AGS fault code on the MATE3 >> controller and found that the generator has problems so I ended up >> turning from "auto" to "off" >> -- >> Jim with Gowdy Electric >> Cambria, Ca 93428 >> business 805 927 2630 >> cell 805 975 5279 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 14:43:27 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2024 11:43:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV/Charge Controller Troubleshoot Help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No error message for CC fan The fan should cycle from battery power off start up. I e never seen a CC produce zero watts. Reduced yes While the fan might be broken I don’t think that explains the issue. > On Apr 23, 2024, at 11:36 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > If the fan fails would there be an error message? As always, I looked this > up before posting. The manual is not clear on the matter. > > William > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2024 6:58 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: MDElectricSolar > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV/Charge Controller Troubleshoot Help > > It may be the fan. I had an FM 80 where the fan went bad that caused very > limited solar production throughout the day. > > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > >> On Apr 23, 2024, at 6:54 AM, jay via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> HI Jim, >> >> The CC is sure suspect. >> You didn’t mention what the battery voltage is. >> Those CC have a hard PV watt input limit. >> >> You can try and set it back to factory default and then reprogram, >> sometimes that works. >> >> I don’t use the FM-60, but always the FM-80 because of the fan >> replacement. the 80 takes 3 minutes, the 60 takes 2 hours. >> >> jay >> >>> On Apr 23, 2024, at 6:00 AM, Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>> I'm troubleshooting the solar aspect of a small offgrid 120v outback >>> system and need some opinions. The customer was complaining that the >>> generator was running too much so I went out to their property and >>> investigated. The solar array consists of 16 total panels (4 strings of >>> 4). At the combiner box, I took the voltage and amperage reading of each >>> string and found the following......BREAKER 1 (85VDC/8.87A) BREAKER 2 >>> (84.5VDC/8.9A) BREAKER 3 (.03VDC/0A) BREAKER 4(85VDC/8.89A). Breaker 3 >>> string was not producing and so I did a fix and then read >>> (87.1VDC/8.43A). After reviewing the online monitor since that fix from >>> a few days prior I'm realizing that the first day after had 4.5KWH >>> production, second day had 0.7KWH production, and yesterday had 0.3KWH >>> production.....sun has been out without clouds. The 60A Outback charge >>> controller shows there is PV voltage, but noticed it was in "silent mode" >>> a good amount of time. Charge controller is old, but all the other >>> equipment was updated about a year and a half ago. I was wondering if >>> there is a way to diagnose if the charge controller is bad without just >>> replacing it and what does it mean when it's in "silent mode". Another >>> side note is that their generator threw an AGS fault code on the MATE3 >>> controller and found that the generator has problems so I ended up >>> turning from "auto" to "off" >>> -- >>> Jim with Gowdy Electric >>> Cambria, Ca 93428 >>> business 805 927 2630 >>> cell 805 975 5279 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >>> other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From toddcory at finestplanet.com Tue Apr 23 14:47:31 2024 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2024 11:47:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV/Charge Controller Troubleshoot Help In-Reply-To: References: <00883669-6406-4DD6-95EF-7400DF838466@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1713898051.66436560@webmail.finestplanet.com> My old MX60 said " hot" when the fan had failed.Todd "MX 2 Hot (Very rare) Either the MX60 is too hot or its internal temperature sensor is shorted. If this message appears, carefully check if the MX60’s heat sink is extremely hot. The heat generated by the MX60, and therefore its losses, is proportional to input voltage times output current. Avoid installing the MX60 in direct sunlight to help control its operating temperature." On Tuesday, April 23, 2024 11:19am, "William Miller via RE-wrenches" said: > If the fan fails would there be an error message? As always, I looked this > up before posting. The manual is not clear on the matter. > > William > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2024 6:58 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: MDElectricSolar > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV/Charge Controller Troubleshoot Help > > It may be the fan. I had an FM 80 where the fan went bad that caused very > limited solar production throughout the day. > > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > > On Apr 23, 2024, at 6:54 AM, jay via RE-wrenches > > wrote: > > > > HI Jim, > > > > The CC is sure suspect. > > You didn’t mention what the battery voltage is. > > Those CC have a hard PV watt input limit. > > > > You can try and set it back to factory default and then reprogram, > > sometimes that works. > > > > I don’t use the FM-60, but always the FM-80 because of the fan > > replacement. the 80 takes 3 minutes, the 60 takes 2 hours. > > > > jay > > > >> On Apr 23, 2024, at 6:00 AM, Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches > >> wrote: > >> > >> I'm troubleshooting the solar aspect of a small offgrid 120v outback > >> system and need some opinions. The customer was complaining that the > >> generator was running too much so I went out to their property and > >> investigated. The solar array consists of 16 total panels (4 strings of > >> 4). At the combiner box, I took the voltage and amperage reading of each > >> string and found the following......BREAKER 1 (85VDC/8.87A) BREAKER 2 > >> (84.5VDC/8.9A) BREAKER 3 (.03VDC/0A) BREAKER 4(85VDC/8.89A). Breaker 3 > >> string was not producing and so I did a fix and then read > >> (87.1VDC/8.43A). After reviewing the online monitor since that fix from > >> a few days prior I'm realizing that the first day after had 4.5KWH > >> production, second day had 0.7KWH production, and yesterday had 0.3KWH > >> production.....sun has been out without clouds. The 60A Outback charge > >> controller shows there is PV voltage, but noticed it was in "silent mode" > >> a good amount of time. Charge controller is old, but all the other > >> equipment was updated about a year and a half ago. I was wondering if > >> there is a way to diagnose if the charge controller is bad without just > >> replacing it and what does it mean when it's in "silent mode". Another > >> side note is that their generator threw an AGS fault code on the MATE3 > >> controller and found that the generator has problems so I ended up > >> turning from "auto" to "off" > >> -- > >> Jim with Gowdy Electric > >> Cambria, Ca 93428 > >> business 805 927 2630 > >> cell 805 975 5279 > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > >> other: > >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > > other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Apr 23 14:40:51 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2024 12:40:51 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV/Charge Controller Troubleshoot Help In-Reply-To: <1713898051.66436560@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <00883669-6406-4DD6-95EF-7400DF838466@gmail.com> <1713898051.66436560@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: <409e1b62-788e-4d21-8072-93029f9c2d1b@solarray.com> Isn't that too much array power for an MX60?  Just based on the numbers you gave, it looks like over 3kw, which is 63 amps at 48vdc.  He didn't mention the actual PV module ratings, but I suspect its just way too much array power.  It might work for awhile, but its going to start cooking things (as it seems it has).  I never design off grid like folks design GT systems with over sized arrays.  You want reliability off grid, and that means leaving some head room in the design, so that the controller isn't clipping all day. I'd replace the MX60 with an MX80, and then you and the customer can be bored for a decade.  It will make more power too, especially on cold, sunny days when you really need it. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 4/23/2024 12:47 PM, Todd Cory via RE-wrenches wrote: > > My old MX60 said " hot" when the fan had failed. > > Todd > > > "MX 2 Hot (Very rare) Either the MX60 is too hot or its internal > temperature sensor is shorted. If this message appears, carefully > check if the MX60’s heat sink is extremely hot. The heat generated by > the MX60, and therefore its losses, is proportional to input voltage > times output current. Avoid installing the MX60 in direct sunlight to > help control its operating temperature." > > > > On Tuesday, April 23, 2024 11:19am, "William Miller via RE-wrenches" > said: > > > If the fan fails would there be an error message? As always, I > looked this > > up before posting. The manual is not clear on the matter. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > > Behalf Of MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches > > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2024 6:58 AM > > To: RE-wrenches > > Cc: MDElectricSolar > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV/Charge Controller Troubleshoot Help > > > > It may be the fan. I had an FM 80 where the fan went bad that caused > very > > limited solar production throughout the day. > > > > Michael D Nelson > > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > > 707-684-0064 mobile > > 707-884-1862 office > > www.mdelectricsolar.com > > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > > > > > On Apr 23, 2024, at 6:54 AM, jay via RE-wrenches > > > wrote: > > > > > > HI Jim, > > > > > > The CC is sure suspect. > > > You didn’t mention what the battery voltage is. > > > Those CC have a hard PV watt input limit. > > > > > > You can try and set it back to factory default and then reprogram, > > > sometimes that works. > > > > > > I don’t use the FM-60, but always the FM-80 because of the fan > > > replacement. the 80 takes 3 minutes, the 60 takes 2 hours. > > > > > > jay > > > > > >> On Apr 23, 2024, at 6:00 AM, Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >> I'm troubleshooting the solar aspect of a small offgrid 120v outback > > >> system and need some opinions. The customer was complaining that the > > >> generator was running too much so I went out to their property and > > >> investigated. The solar array consists of 16 total panels (4 > strings of > > >> 4). At the combiner box, I took the voltage and amperage reading > of each > > >> string and found the following......BREAKER 1 (85VDC/8.87A) BREAKER 2 > > >> (84.5VDC/8.9A) BREAKER 3 (.03VDC/0A) BREAKER 4(85VDC/8.89A). > Breaker 3 > > >> string was not producing and so I did a fix and then read > > >> (87.1VDC/8.43A). After reviewing the online monitor since that > fix from > > >> a few days prior I'm realizing that the first day after had 4.5KWH > > >> production, second day had 0.7KWH production, and yesterday had > 0.3KWH > > >> production.....sun has been out without clouds. The 60A Outback > charge > > >> controller shows there is PV voltage, but noticed it was in > "silent mode" > > >> a good amount of time. Charge controller is old, but all the other > > >> equipment was updated about a year and a half ago. I was wondering if > > >> there is a way to diagnose if the charge controller is bad > without just > > >> replacing it and what does it mean when it's in "silent mode". > Another > > >> side note is that their generator threw an AGS fault code on the > MATE3 > > >> controller and found that the generator has problems so I ended up > > >> turning from "auto" to "off" > > >> -- > > >> Jim with Gowdy Electric > > >> Cambria, Ca 93428 > > >> business 805 927 2630 > > >> cell 805 975 5279 > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > >> > > >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > >> > > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > >> > > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > >> > > >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the > > >> other: > > >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > >> > > >> List rules & etiquette: > > >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > >> > > >> Check out or update participant bios: > > >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the > > > other: > > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the > > other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 15:33:12 2024 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2024 15:33:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV/Charge Controller Troubleshoot Help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've had several MX and FM failures (at least 5) over the years, often with the output at zero. I don't know what actually fails, but they just stop producing. I must admit, I don't remember if in all cases I tried resetting them to factory default, but my memory is when talking to Outback support, after checking for appropriate input and output voltages, if there aren't any other obvious issues, they've told me the units are toast. Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 2:45 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > No error message for CC fan > > The fan should cycle from battery power off start up. > > I e never seen a CC produce zero watts. Reduced yes > > While the fan might be broken I don’t think that explains the issue. > > > > > On Apr 23, 2024, at 11:36 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > > If the fan fails would there be an error message? As always, I looked > this > > up before posting. The manual is not clear on the matter. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > > Behalf Of MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches > > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2024 6:58 AM > > To: RE-wrenches > > Cc: MDElectricSolar > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV/Charge Controller Troubleshoot Help > > > > It may be the fan. I had an FM 80 where the fan went bad that caused very > > limited solar production throughout the day. > > > > Michael D Nelson > > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > > 707-684-0064 mobile > > 707-884-1862 office > > www.mdelectricsolar.com > > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > > > >> On Apr 23, 2024, at 6:54 AM, jay via RE-wrenches > >> wrote: > >> > >> HI Jim, > >> > >> The CC is sure suspect. > >> You didn’t mention what the battery voltage is. > >> Those CC have a hard PV watt input limit. > >> > >> You can try and set it back to factory default and then reprogram, > >> sometimes that works. > >> > >> I don’t use the FM-60, but always the FM-80 because of the fan > >> replacement. the 80 takes 3 minutes, the 60 takes 2 hours. > >> > >> jay > >> > >>> On Apr 23, 2024, at 6:00 AM, Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> I'm troubleshooting the solar aspect of a small offgrid 120v outback > >>> system and need some opinions. The customer was complaining that the > >>> generator was running too much so I went out to their property and > >>> investigated. The solar array consists of 16 total panels (4 strings > of > >>> 4). At the combiner box, I took the voltage and amperage reading of > each > >>> string and found the following......BREAKER 1 (85VDC/8.87A) BREAKER 2 > >>> (84.5VDC/8.9A) BREAKER 3 (.03VDC/0A) BREAKER 4(85VDC/8.89A). Breaker 3 > >>> string was not producing and so I did a fix and then read > >>> (87.1VDC/8.43A). After reviewing the online monitor since that fix > from > >>> a few days prior I'm realizing that the first day after had 4.5KWH > >>> production, second day had 0.7KWH production, and yesterday had 0.3KWH > >>> production.....sun has been out without clouds. The 60A Outback charge > >>> controller shows there is PV voltage, but noticed it was in "silent > mode" > >>> a good amount of time. Charge controller is old, but all the other > >>> equipment was updated about a year and a half ago. I was wondering if > >>> there is a way to diagnose if the charge controller is bad without just > >>> replacing it and what does it mean when it's in "silent mode". Another > >>> side note is that their generator threw an AGS fault code on the MATE3 > >>> controller and found that the generator has problems so I ended up > >>> turning from "auto" to "off" > >>> -- > >>> Jim with Gowdy Electric > >>> Cambria, Ca 93428 > >>> business 805 927 2630 > >>> cell 805 975 5279 > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >>> > >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> Change listserver email address & settings: > >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the > >>> other: > >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> List rules & etiquette: > >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >>> > >>> Check out or update participant bios: > >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the > >> other: > >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > > other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Tue Apr 23 16:13:03 2024 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2024 16:13:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV/Charge Controller Troubleshoot Help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Same experience for me, Toast if reboot doesn't wake it up. On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 3:33 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I've had several MX and FM failures (at least 5) over the years, often > with the output at zero. I don't know what actually fails, but they just > stop producing. I must admit, I don't remember if in all cases I tried > resetting them to factory default, but my memory is when talking to Outback > support, after checking for appropriate input and output voltages, if there > aren't any other obvious issues, they've told me the units are toast. > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > > > > On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 2:45 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> No error message for CC fan >> >> The fan should cycle from battery power off start up. >> >> I e never seen a CC produce zero watts. Reduced yes >> >> While the fan might be broken I don’t think that explains the issue. >> >> >> >> > On Apr 23, 2024, at 11:36 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> > >> > If the fan fails would there be an error message? As always, I looked >> this >> > up before posting. The manual is not clear on the matter. >> > >> > William >> > >> > Miller Solar >> > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> > 805-438-5600 >> > www.millersolar.com >> > CA Lic. 773985 >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On >> > Behalf Of MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches >> > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2024 6:58 AM >> > To: RE-wrenches >> > Cc: MDElectricSolar >> > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV/Charge Controller Troubleshoot Help >> > >> > It may be the fan. I had an FM 80 where the fan went bad that caused >> very >> > limited solar production throughout the day. >> > >> > Michael D Nelson >> > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >> > 707-684-0064 mobile >> > 707-884-1862 office >> > www.mdelectricsolar.com >> > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >> > >> > >> >> On Apr 23, 2024, at 6:54 AM, jay via RE-wrenches >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> HI Jim, >> >> >> >> The CC is sure suspect. >> >> You didn’t mention what the battery voltage is. >> >> Those CC have a hard PV watt input limit. >> >> >> >> You can try and set it back to factory default and then reprogram, >> >> sometimes that works. >> >> >> >> I don’t use the FM-60, but always the FM-80 because of the fan >> >> replacement. the 80 takes 3 minutes, the 60 takes 2 hours. >> >> >> >> jay >> >> >> >>> On Apr 23, 2024, at 6:00 AM, Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches >> >>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> I'm troubleshooting the solar aspect of a small offgrid 120v outback >> >>> system and need some opinions. The customer was complaining that the >> >>> generator was running too much so I went out to their property and >> >>> investigated. The solar array consists of 16 total panels (4 strings >> of >> >>> 4). At the combiner box, I took the voltage and amperage reading of >> each >> >>> string and found the following......BREAKER 1 (85VDC/8.87A) BREAKER 2 >> >>> (84.5VDC/8.9A) BREAKER 3 (.03VDC/0A) BREAKER 4(85VDC/8.89A). Breaker >> 3 >> >>> string was not producing and so I did a fix and then read >> >>> (87.1VDC/8.43A). After reviewing the online monitor since that fix >> from >> >>> a few days prior I'm realizing that the first day after had 4.5KWH >> >>> production, second day had 0.7KWH production, and yesterday had 0.3KWH >> >>> production.....sun has been out without clouds. The 60A Outback >> charge >> >>> controller shows there is PV voltage, but noticed it was in "silent >> mode" >> >>> a good amount of time. Charge controller is old, but all the other >> >>> equipment was updated about a year and a half ago. I was wondering if >> >>> there is a way to diagnose if the charge controller is bad without >> just >> >>> replacing it and what does it mean when it's in "silent mode". >> Another >> >>> side note is that their generator threw an AGS fault code on the MATE3 >> >>> controller and found that the generator has problems so I ended up >> >>> turning from "auto" to "off" >> >>> -- >> >>> Jim with Gowdy Electric >> >>> Cambria, Ca 93428 >> >>> business 805 927 2630 >> >>> cell 805 975 5279 >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >>> >> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >>> >> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >>> >> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>> >> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the >> >>> other: >> >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>> >> >>> List rules & etiquette: >> >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >>> >> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >> >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the >> >> other: >> >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the >> > other: >> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Tue Apr 23 16:35:59 2024 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2024 16:35:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid-Tied Radian Force Discharge Message-ID: Hi All, I have an AC coupled Radian that is used to back up certain loads when the grid is down. It is paired with the Northstar Blue (Outback) batteries. The system sits in float nearly all the time. During a recent grid outage, the batteries had less than half the capacity that I would have expected, and they are only about 3.5 years old with very few cycles on them. I tried to talk to Outback about it, which seems to not be possible anymore. I did talk to Northstar, and they recommend not leaving the batteries in float all the time. I am wondering if anyone knows of a way to force the Radian to automatically discharge the batteries to a certain voltage ideally once a week, but could do daily. Essentially, I would like to utilize a time of use schedule where I can force the radian to not use the grid and just use the battery to power the loads for a little while. Ideally this would be automatic, and not require the customer to go through the grid breaker every once in a while. It seems that from the manual, I need to keep the Radian in Grid Tie mode in order for it to be able to sell excess PV back to the grid. Any ideas? Thanks! -Dave -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Tue Apr 23 16:52:15 2024 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2024 15:52:15 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid-Tied Radian Force Discharge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 17:03:06 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2024 14:03:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] speaking of batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <291957DD-CF39-4F9C-AF1F-BB51DE1B464B@gmail.com> HI All Speaking of batteries I wonder what you all make of this. I was reading the Fortress battery manual and it says they don’t recommend adding new lithium batteries to older lithium batteries if the age is over 1 year difference. Thoughts? thanks jay From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Apr 23 17:19:43 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2024 14:19:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] speaking of batteries In-Reply-To: <291957DD-CF39-4F9C-AF1F-BB51DE1B464B@gmail.com> References: <291957DD-CF39-4F9C-AF1F-BB51DE1B464B@gmail.com> Message-ID: It depends on how the BMS shares with the new BMS. A state of life measurement, the charge algorithm, and ? has to account for this for them to charge and discharge well together. Pretty safe to say one year for many makes of battery. Kind of like bussbar use in large systems, is a way to think about this. A good battery system will know and log this also for warranty. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-04-23 2:03 pm, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > HI All > > Speaking of batteries I wonder what you all make of this. > > I was reading the Fortress battery manual and it says they don't > recommend adding new lithium batteries to older lithium batteries if > the age is over 1 year difference. > > Thoughts? > > thanks > jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Tue Apr 23 17:22:14 2024 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2024 14:22:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid-Tied Radian Force Discharge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, Grid Zero would work, but the customer wouldn't be selling power to the utility. You could program the Radan to sell more power by lowering the sell voltage. I would get aggressive with it for at least 20-30 cycles to see if you can recover some capacity. Ideally, to recover lost capacity from lead batteries, you want to do 50-80% cycling for at least 5-10 cycles. I would be cautious about HBX mode, its issue, and why this mode should have died with the old Trace Eng inverters... HBX mode tends to kill battery banks if left there too long or you are not getting the battery to 100%. The problem with HBX mode is that there is no way to control absorb timers, so the batteries get to the 80-85% range but never get to full; if the batteries are lead, this is going to create sulfation problems, and if AGM will end up in severe swelling. If I remember correctly, you can adjust the delay timer for HBX, which should be equal to the programmed Absrob timers, but I don't know if they killed this in the new firmware. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 1:53 PM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > You can do it in one of several easy ways. > > HPX mode on the Mate. High Battery transfer. When the battery voltage > and/or SOC is above the setpoint drop the grid. When the battery voltage or > state of charge goes below the setpoint pick up the grid. This case the > Mate is doing the driving. > > Also available is Grid Zero mode where the inserter decides to zero the > loads based on battery voltage and AC amp load. Then you would set the > ReBulk set point on the inverter charger to trigger charging the batteries > instead of zero AC loads. > > The third choice is to program something called FlexTime where you set the > schedule of the AC input mode from grid tide to red zero or off grid, etc. > > It’s the system is on OpticsRE, you can adjust the settings fine-tune to > get the best performance out of those Northstar batteries. > > I just decommissioned a 36 battery group of Northstar batteries after 13 > years and most of them are still viable. > > As a precaution, For AC coupling, I also install a high battery AUX port > controlled relay that drops the AC coupling input circuit. > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > > > On Apr 23, 2024, at 3:36 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Hi All, > > I have an AC coupled Radian that is used to back up certain loads when the > grid is down. It is paired with the Northstar Blue (Outback) batteries. The > system sits in float nearly all the time. During a recent grid outage, the > batteries had less than half the capacity that I would have expected, and > they are only about 3.5 years old with very few cycles on them. > > I tried to talk to Outback about it, which seems to not be possible > anymore. I did talk to Northstar, and they recommend not leaving the > batteries in float all the time. > > I am wondering if anyone knows of a way to force the Radian to > automatically discharge the batteries to a certain voltage ideally once a > week, but could do daily. Essentially, I would like to utilize a time of > use schedule where I can force the radian to not use the grid and just use > the battery to power the loads for a little while. Ideally this would be > automatic, and not require the customer to go through the grid breaker > every once in a while. It seems that from the manual, I need to keep the > Radian in Grid Tie mode in order for it to be able to sell excess PV back > to the grid. Any ideas? > > Thanks! > -Dave > > -- > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 270-0370 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Tue Apr 23 17:25:55 2024 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2024 16:25:55 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] speaking of batteries In-Reply-To: <291957DD-CF39-4F9C-AF1F-BB51DE1B464B@gmail.com> References: <291957DD-CF39-4F9C-AF1F-BB51DE1B464B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <35E61DEC-857E-416C-A49A-FECED1B00DE8@mavericksolar.com> In a battery backup mostly float state with low cycle count, I’d add to a bank several years later. It’s really hard to say “several” since most LiFePO4 batteries haven’t been alive for that long. I’ve personally added 8 Pytes E-Box to 8 eFlex with no issue. The Schneider Insight even allows two comm cables and shows both SOCs. At another customer, I’m adding four Pytes batteries a quarter until we get 16. Grid Tie battery back up. Once we get to 16 will turn on time of use metering and exercise the batteries a bit more. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On Apr 23, 2024, at 4:05 PM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > HI All > > Speaking of batteries I wonder what you all make of this. > > I was reading the Fortress battery manual and it says they don’t recommend adding new lithium batteries to older lithium batteries if the age is over 1 year difference. > > Thoughts? > > thanks > jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Apr 23 17:40:39 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2024 17:40:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system Message-ID: I have an off-grid client who is working on replacing old equipment at a cabin. He has a lot of 12 volt distribution in the house for lighting, fans, and a 12 volt refrigerator. He also has 120 volt AC loads that run through a separate distribution panel where the only source is a 2000 Watt Honda generator. There is no inverter present. The batteries are charged through a Trace C40. He currently has a few ancient solar panels and a struggling Bank of AGM batteries. It's time for an upgrade. I can easily supply enough PV power for what he needs. He currently has a 9 kilowatt hour battery capacity that he was happy with when the batteries operated optimally. Nonetheless, I would probably future-proof him with a 10 to 15 kilowatt hour LiPo to double or triple his usable capacity. For convenience, obviously it would be nice to have an inverter to eliminate or reduce the generator requirement. But he seems committed to keeping his 12 volt distribution because it would be costly to replace fixtures. I think he would consider replacing the 12 volt refrigerator if he has an inverter. He definitely wants LiPo batteries. I don't like the idea of 12 volt direct from a battery plus connecting an inverter to that same battery. It is going to be hard to measure and monitor things. I am thinking about using a 48 volt battery with a single phase 120 volt inverter, getting him to change to a 120 volt refrigerator, and using a DC converter to give him somewhere in the range of 100 amps at 12 volts for his existing DC lighting and fan loads. Is this a bad idea? Should I stick with a 12 volt battery system? He does have a tiny 12 volt pressure pump which might be an issue for the converter. I'm not sure. I am a bit worried about the efficiency loss and capacity of DC converters and not sure how to size it. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Apr 23 17:46:41 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2024 14:46:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <069aafe04cd3f594bcb40914cdd38dfd@sti.net> Not being helpful but I walk away from these. It will come back to you. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-04-23 2:40 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > I have an off-grid client who is working on replacing old equipment at > a cabin. He has a lot of 12 volt distribution in the house for > lighting, fans, and a 12 volt refrigerator. He also has 120 volt AC > loads that run through a separate distribution panel where the only > source is a 2000 Watt Honda generator. There is no inverter present. > The batteries are charged through a Trace C40. > > He currently has a few ancient solar panels and a struggling Bank of > AGM batteries. It's time for an upgrade. I can easily supply enough PV > power for what he needs. He currently has a 9 kilowatt hour battery > capacity that he was happy with when the batteries operated optimally. > Nonetheless, I would probably future-proof him with a 10 to 15 kilowatt > hour LiPo to double or triple his usable capacity. > > For convenience, obviously it would be nice to have an inverter to > eliminate or reduce the generator requirement. But he seems committed > to keeping his 12 volt distribution because it would be costly to > replace fixtures. I think he would consider replacing the 12 volt > refrigerator if he has an inverter. > > He definitely wants LiPo batteries. > > I don't like the idea of 12 volt direct from a battery plus connecting > an inverter to that same battery. It is going to be hard to measure and > monitor things. > > I am thinking about using a 48 volt battery with a single phase 120 > volt inverter, getting him to change to a 120 volt refrigerator, and > using a DC converter to give him somewhere in the range of 100 amps at > 12 volts for his existing DC lighting and fan loads. Is this a bad > idea? Should I stick with a 12 volt battery system? He does have a tiny > 12 volt pressure pump which might be an issue for the converter. I'm > not sure. I am a bit worried about the efficiency loss and capacity of > DC converters and not sure how to size it. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Tue Apr 23 17:49:39 2024 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2024 14:49:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] speaking of batteries In-Reply-To: <291957DD-CF39-4F9C-AF1F-BB51DE1B464B@gmail.com> References: <291957DD-CF39-4F9C-AF1F-BB51DE1B464B@gmail.com> Message-ID: Even with LFP, mixing different-age batteries is still not the best idea. Even if using closed-loop communication, they can get out of balance pretty quickly, which will lead to all kinds of BMS issues. One of the reasons I suggest using a main positive and negative bus with breakers: You can easily isolate the parallel strings and charge them independently to ensure they stay balanced. Personally, anything older than six months' difference, I would still plan on balancing every 4-6 months. The harder they work them, the more often they will need to be balanced. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 2:05 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > HI All > > Speaking of batteries I wonder what you all make of this. > > I was reading the Fortress battery manual and it says they don’t recommend > adding new lithium batteries to older lithium batteries if the age is over > 1 year difference. > > Thoughts? > > thanks > jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 17:58:26 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2024 14:58:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <777F6755-3B28-45E4-BA00-37A8427E631A@gmail.com> I’ve done this many times I use an Iota or power max charger to run the DC. Jay > On Apr 23, 2024, at 2:42 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > I have an off-grid client who is working on replacing old equipment at a cabin. He has a lot of 12 volt distribution in the house for lighting, fans, and a 12 volt refrigerator. He also has 120 volt AC loads that run through a separate distribution panel where the only source is a 2000 Watt Honda generator. There is no inverter present. The batteries are charged through a Trace C40. > > He currently has a few ancient solar panels and a struggling Bank of AGM batteries. It's time for an upgrade. I can easily supply enough PV power for what he needs. He currently has a 9 kilowatt hour battery capacity that he was happy with when the batteries operated optimally. Nonetheless, I would probably future-proof him with a 10 to 15 kilowatt hour LiPo to double or triple his usable capacity. > > For convenience, obviously it would be nice to have an inverter to eliminate or reduce the generator requirement. But he seems committed to keeping his 12 volt distribution because it would be costly to replace fixtures. I think he would consider replacing the 12 volt refrigerator if he has an inverter. > > He definitely wants LiPo batteries. > > I don't like the idea of 12 volt direct from a battery plus connecting an inverter to that same battery. It is going to be hard to measure and monitor things. > > I am thinking about using a 48 volt battery with a single phase 120 volt inverter, getting him to change to a 120 volt refrigerator, and using a DC converter to give him somewhere in the range of 100 amps at 12 volts for his existing DC lighting and fan loads. Is this a bad idea? Should I stick with a 12 volt battery system? He does have a tiny 12 volt pressure pump which might be an issue for the converter. I'm not sure. I am a bit worried about the efficiency loss and capacity of DC converters and not sure how to size it. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From william at millersolar.com Tue Apr 23 19:07:40 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2024 16:07:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Converting from transformer to transformerless Message-ID: Friends: I researched this and got no clear answer: If I were to replace an old Sunny Boy transformer inverter with a modern transformerless inverter, what are the implications? I know I need PV rated or conduited feeders. Is PID an issue? Should I disable arc fault as a legacy entitlement or is arc fault even more important with older PV? Thanks in advance. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Apr 23 19:31:24 2024 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2024 16:31:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Converting from transformer to transformerless In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi William, I'll rattle off a few notes based on some of my experiences: If I were to replace an old Sunny Boy transformer inverter with a modern transformerless inverter, what are the implications? *[August Goers] I'll forward you and the group an old SolarPro Magazine article called "Updates for NEC 2017 PV Systems" by Bill Brooks - he has some good points that address your questions. For the most part, the upgrade to a non-isolated transformerless inverter should be just fine.* I know I need PV rated or conduited feeders. *[August Goers] USE-2 should be fine, refer to article above* Is PID an issue? *[August Goers] Yes, some modules have PID issues, primarily SunPower modules made in the 2012~2013 range or earlier. I've also heard that Evergreen mods have PID issues and probably others. Check the manufacturer info. * Should I disable arc fault as a legacy entitlement or is arc fault even more important with older PV? *[August Goers] Since the inverter replacement is presumably considered maintenance, I know many of us think of making sure that the safety aspects of the new inverter system meet or exceed the original system. So, we typically try to enable arc fault if possible but not always, especially if the old array is causing false trips. Rapid shutdown comes up as well. * Best, August Luminalt On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 4:10 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > I researched this and got no clear answer: > > If I were to replace an old Sunny Boy transformer inverter with a modern > transformerless inverter, what are the implications? > > I know I need PV rated or conduited feeders. > > Is PID an issue? > > Should I disable arc fault as a legacy entitlement or is arc fault even > more important with older PV? > > Thanks in advance. > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Tue Apr 23 20:09:18 2024 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2024 20:09:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] speaking of batteries In-Reply-To: <291957DD-CF39-4F9C-AF1F-BB51DE1B464B@gmail.com> References: <291957DD-CF39-4F9C-AF1F-BB51DE1B464B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <008301da95db$a6cd2690$f46773b0$@mindspring.com> Jay Do not get me started. That is not what they told me when I was buying 1 to 2 per customer. Thay were very optimistic about growing a bank. Now they are saying something very different. Also their BMS boards, they do not hold up and now I have customers that have had numerous replacements and the batteries have to come out of closed loop and work on Voltages only. Thay have no solution. My apologies for the Rant. Thx Peter Giroux American Solar -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of jay via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2024 5:03 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: jay Subject: [RE-wrenches] speaking of batteries HI All Speaking of batteries I wonder what you all make of this. I was reading the Fortress battery manual and it says they don’t recommend adding new lithium batteries to older lithium batteries if the age is over 1 year difference. Thoughts? thanks jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 22:36:22 2024 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2024 21:36:22 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] speaking of batteries In-Reply-To: <291957DD-CF39-4F9C-AF1F-BB51DE1B464B@gmail.com> References: <291957DD-CF39-4F9C-AF1F-BB51DE1B464B@gmail.com> Message-ID: If the batteries have a 10-year life, I don't think it would make much difference. LA batteries show an increase in internal resistance after a few recharges. Typically, the BMS in a Li battery will ensure at top balance all cells balance, If the batteries are being properly recharged. On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 4:05 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > HI All > > Speaking of batteries I wonder what you all make of this. > > I was reading the Fortress battery manual and it says they don’t recommend > adding new lithium batteries to older lithium batteries if the age is over > 1 year difference. > > Thoughts? > > thanks > jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 23:51:13 2024 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2024 23:51:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] speaking of batteries In-Reply-To: References: <291957DD-CF39-4F9C-AF1F-BB51DE1B464B@gmail.com> Message-ID: I had the same experience as Jay as far as being marketed three idea that managed lithium batteries can jane several year age differences and still play well together, only to be told, after telling my clients the same, that most manufacturers don't recommend more than a year age differential (although apparently a few say mix and match till your heart's content). They also recommend keeping them in open loop, I think mostly because of all the firmware updating that is happening on both the battery and inverter side which causes continual incompatibility issues. Disappointing, to say the least. Fortunately, I have yet to see any Fortress BMS failures. Howie Sun Catcher On Tue, Apr 23, 2024, 10:37 PM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > If the batteries have a 10-year life, I don't think it would make much > difference. LA batteries show an increase in internal resistance after a > few recharges. Typically, the BMS in a Li battery will ensure at top > balance all cells balance, If the batteries are being properly recharged. > > > On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 4:05 PM jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> HI All >> >> Speaking of batteries I wonder what you all make of this. >> >> I was reading the Fortress battery manual and it says they don’t >> recommend adding new lithium batteries to older lithium batteries if the >> age is over 1 year difference. >> >> Thoughts? >> >> thanks >> jay >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Apr 24 07:20:56 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2024 07:20:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system In-Reply-To: <069aafe04cd3f594bcb40914cdd38dfd@sti.net> References: <069aafe04cd3f594bcb40914cdd38dfd@sti.net> Message-ID: Fortunately, the owner is pretty handy and is willing to live with any negative consequences. That said, I want to offer him something as simple and bulletproof as possible. I am walking into this with eyes wide open, for sure. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:47 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Not being helpful but I walk away from these. It will come back to you. > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2024-04-23 2:40 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I have an off-grid client who is working on replacing old equipment at a > cabin. He has a lot of 12 volt distribution in the house for lighting, > fans, and a 12 volt refrigerator. He also has 120 volt AC loads that run > through a separate distribution panel where the only source is a 2000 Watt > Honda generator. There is no inverter present. The batteries are charged > through a Trace C40. > > He currently has a few ancient solar panels and a struggling Bank of AGM > batteries. It's time for an upgrade. I can easily supply enough PV power > for what he needs. He currently has a 9 kilowatt hour battery capacity that > he was happy with when the batteries operated optimally. Nonetheless, I > would probably future-proof him with a 10 to 15 kilowatt hour LiPo to > double or triple his usable capacity. > > For convenience, obviously it would be nice to have an inverter to > eliminate or reduce the generator requirement. But he seems committed to > keeping his 12 volt distribution because it would be costly to replace > fixtures. I think he would consider replacing the 12 volt refrigerator if > he has an inverter. > > He definitely wants LiPo batteries. > > I don't like the idea of 12 volt direct from a battery plus connecting an > inverter to that same battery. It is going to be hard to measure and > monitor things. > > I am thinking about using a 48 volt battery with a single phase 120 volt > inverter, getting him to change to a 120 volt refrigerator, and using a DC > converter to give him somewhere in the range of 100 amps at 12 volts for > his existing DC lighting and fan loads. Is this a bad idea? Should I stick > with a 12 volt battery system? He does have a tiny 12 volt pressure pump > which might be an issue for the converter. I'm not sure. I am a bit worried > about the efficiency loss and capacity of DC converters and not sure how to > size it. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Apr 24 07:26:32 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2024 11:26:32 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system In-Reply-To: <777F6755-3B28-45E4-BA00-37A8427E631A@gmail.com> References: <777F6755-3B28-45E4-BA00-37A8427E631A@gmail.com> <777F6755-3B28-45E4-BA00-37A8427E631A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <451d7d80-59a8-5e39-7c40-6f8862de0edd@floridasolardesigngroup.com> Thanks, Jay. Any thoughts on whether a 100A 12V converter is adequate to handle the startup surge of a modern 120V full-size refrigerator when an existing 400W load is present? That would be my design parameters.  I guess the other question is, what happens if the converter is overloaded? I know they have overload protection, but what is the reset procedure? Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 [data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAP///wAAACwAAAAAAQABAAACAkQBADs=3D] On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 6:01 PM Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > I’ve done this many times > > I use an Iota or power max charger to run the DC. > > Jay > > > On Apr 23, 2024, at 2:42 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > > >  > > I have an off-grid client who is working on replacing old equipment at a > cabin. He has a lot of 12 volt distribution in the house for lighting, fans, > and a 12 volt refrigerator. He also has 120 volt AC loads that run through a > separate distribution panel where the only source is a 2000 Watt Honda > generator. There is no inverter present. The batteries are charged through a > Trace C40. > > > > He currently has a few ancient solar panels and a struggling Bank of AGM > batteries. It's time for an upgrade. I can easily supply enough PV power for > what he needs. He currently has a 9 kilowatt hour battery capacity that he was > happy with when the batteries operated optimally. Nonetheless, I would > probably future-proof him with a 10 to 15 kilowatt hour LiPo to double or > triple his usable capacity. > > > > For convenience, obviously it would be nice to have an inverter to eliminate > or reduce the generator requirement. But he seems committed to keeping his 12 > volt distribution because it would be costly to replace fixtures. I think he > would consider replacing the 12 volt refrigerator if he has an inverter. > > > > He definitely wants LiPo batteries. > > > > I don't like the idea of 12 volt direct from a battery plus connecting an > inverter to that same battery. It is going to be hard to measure and monitor > things. > > > > I am thinking about using a 48 volt battery with a single phase 120 volt > inverter, getting him to change to a 120 volt refrigerator, and using a DC > converter to give him somewhere in the range of 100 amps at 12 volts for his > existing DC lighting and fan loads. Is this a bad idea? Should I stick with a > 12 volt battery system? He does have a tiny 12 volt pressure pump which might > be an issue for the converter. I'm not sure. I am a bit worried about the > efficiency loss and capacity of DC converters and not sure how to size it. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > [http://re-wrenches.org] > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > [RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [http://re-wrenches.org] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > [RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Wed Apr 24 08:00:37 2024 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2024 08:00:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system In-Reply-To: References: <069aafe04cd3f594bcb40914cdd38dfd@sti.net> Message-ID: Jason, I have a customer with the same situation except he already has a 12 V VFX inverter, He has a sunfrost fridge and other small loads with a very fancy custom control board originally set up to handle AC and DC systems. We are adding a lot more solar and I was considering a dual battery system but the owner didn't like that idea. We are going with and Iota 12v power supply (i use one at my house for my sunfrost) to power up all his DC loads and will be adding a large 48 V battery bank and over 4Kw of solar using a VFXR3648 directly in place of the 12V inverter. He complained that the existing inverter would not handle all his current AC loads very well. My own house is fully wired for 12VDC as well as AC (lots of #10 copper not being used) and I have been considering getting a small LFP 12V battery to put back on by DC System. Then use the Iota as a secondary charging method with some of my large stash of older modules hooked up for 12V direct with C40 charge controller to recreate my original system just for kicks. I'm only using DC for my Sunfrost and one "emergency light" in the livingroom right now. For your customer, a small LFP 12v battery (approximately $500 or less) to replace his old battery bankm and more larger ones for the new AC side with 48V inverter fed by his generator or through an Iota 48 V charger ifusing a smaller non charging inverter. Unlike Dave, I like these challenges. Maybe thats why I never seem to make money.!! John Blittersdorf offgridvermont.com On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 7:22 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Fortunately, the owner is pretty handy and is willing to live with any > negative consequences. That said, I want to offer him something as simple > and bulletproof as possible. I am walking into this with eyes wide open, > for sure. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:47 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via > RE-wrenches wrote: > >> Not being helpful but I walk away from these. It will come back to you. >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> >> On 2024-04-23 2:40 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> I have an off-grid client who is working on replacing old equipment at a >> cabin. He has a lot of 12 volt distribution in the house for lighting, >> fans, and a 12 volt refrigerator. He also has 120 volt AC loads that run >> through a separate distribution panel where the only source is a 2000 Watt >> Honda generator. There is no inverter present. The batteries are charged >> through a Trace C40. >> >> He currently has a few ancient solar panels and a struggling Bank of AGM >> batteries. It's time for an upgrade. I can easily supply enough PV power >> for what he needs. He currently has a 9 kilowatt hour battery capacity that >> he was happy with when the batteries operated optimally. Nonetheless, I >> would probably future-proof him with a 10 to 15 kilowatt hour LiPo to >> double or triple his usable capacity. >> >> For convenience, obviously it would be nice to have an inverter to >> eliminate or reduce the generator requirement. But he seems committed to >> keeping his 12 volt distribution because it would be costly to replace >> fixtures. I think he would consider replacing the 12 volt refrigerator if >> he has an inverter. >> >> He definitely wants LiPo batteries. >> >> I don't like the idea of 12 volt direct from a battery plus connecting an >> inverter to that same battery. It is going to be hard to measure and >> monitor things. >> >> I am thinking about using a 48 volt battery with a single phase 120 volt >> inverter, getting him to change to a 120 volt refrigerator, and using a DC >> converter to give him somewhere in the range of 100 amps at 12 volts for >> his existing DC lighting and fan loads. Is this a bad idea? Should I stick >> with a 12 volt battery system? He does have a tiny 12 volt pressure pump >> which might be an issue for the converter. I'm not sure. I am a bit worried >> about the efficiency loss and capacity of DC converters and not sure how to >> size it. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Apr 24 08:24:34 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2024 08:24:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system In-Reply-To: References: <069aafe04cd3f594bcb40914cdd38dfd@sti.net> Message-ID: Ah ha! I didn't consider using a small 12V battery with a charger. I was thinking of just using a 120V -> 12V converter to handle the DC loads. Is the 12V battery really necessary, or can I just power the DC loads directly with a converter? If I just have lights and fans on the DC system, the load should be pretty minimal. I could use a separate 12V battery, but I would like to eliminate that cost and complexity if possible. And yeah, I am not considering this a money making opportunity. It's really just a challenge to ward off boredom from the daily grind. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:01 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jason, > I have a customer with the same situation except he already has a 12 V > VFX inverter, He has a sunfrost fridge and other small loads with a very > fancy custom control board > originally set up to handle AC and DC systems. We are adding a lot more > solar and I was considering a dual battery system but the owner didn't like > that idea. We are going with and Iota 12v power supply (i use one at my > house for my sunfrost) to power up all his DC loads and will be adding a > large 48 V battery bank and over 4Kw of solar using a VFXR3648 directly in > place of the 12V inverter. He complained that the existing inverter would > not handle all his current AC loads very well. My own house is fully wired > for 12VDC as well as AC (lots of #10 copper not being used) and I have been > considering getting a small LFP 12V battery to put back on by DC System. > Then use the Iota as a secondary charging method with some of my large > stash of older modules hooked up for 12V direct with C40 charge controller > to recreate my original system just for kicks. I'm only using DC for my > Sunfrost and one "emergency light" in the livingroom right now. For your > customer, a small LFP 12v battery (approximately $500 or less) to replace > his old battery bankm and more larger ones for the new AC side with 48V > inverter fed by his generator or through an Iota 48 V charger ifusing a > smaller non charging inverter. Unlike Dave, I like these challenges. Maybe > thats why I never seem to make money.!! > > John Blittersdorf > offgridvermont.com > > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 7:22 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Fortunately, the owner is pretty handy and is willing to live with any >> negative consequences. That said, I want to offer him something as simple >> and bulletproof as possible. I am walking into this with eyes wide open, >> for sure. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:47 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >> RE-wrenches wrote: >> >>> Not being helpful but I walk away from these. It will come back to you. >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060* >>> >>> >>> On 2024-04-23 2:40 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> I have an off-grid client who is working on replacing old equipment at a >>> cabin. He has a lot of 12 volt distribution in the house for lighting, >>> fans, and a 12 volt refrigerator. He also has 120 volt AC loads that run >>> through a separate distribution panel where the only source is a 2000 Watt >>> Honda generator. There is no inverter present. The batteries are charged >>> through a Trace C40. >>> >>> He currently has a few ancient solar panels and a struggling Bank of AGM >>> batteries. It's time for an upgrade. I can easily supply enough PV power >>> for what he needs. He currently has a 9 kilowatt hour battery capacity that >>> he was happy with when the batteries operated optimally. Nonetheless, I >>> would probably future-proof him with a 10 to 15 kilowatt hour LiPo to >>> double or triple his usable capacity. >>> >>> For convenience, obviously it would be nice to have an inverter to >>> eliminate or reduce the generator requirement. But he seems committed to >>> keeping his 12 volt distribution because it would be costly to replace >>> fixtures. I think he would consider replacing the 12 volt refrigerator if >>> he has an inverter. >>> >>> He definitely wants LiPo batteries. >>> >>> I don't like the idea of 12 volt direct from a battery plus connecting >>> an inverter to that same battery. It is going to be hard to measure and >>> monitor things. >>> >>> I am thinking about using a 48 volt battery with a single phase 120 volt >>> inverter, getting him to change to a 120 volt refrigerator, and using a DC >>> converter to give him somewhere in the range of 100 amps at 12 volts for >>> his existing DC lighting and fan loads. Is this a bad idea? Should I stick >>> with a 12 volt battery system? He does have a tiny 12 volt pressure pump >>> which might be an issue for the converter. I'm not sure. I am a bit worried >>> about the efficiency loss and capacity of DC converters and not sure how to >>> size it. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Apr 24 09:10:44 2024 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2024 06:10:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Transformerless inverter conversion In-Reply-To: References: <770DDEFD-3B30-4D65-845B-0C071B7B2956@millersolar.com> <264c673b0ed93187366dc13015eace2b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Here is a link to download the SolarPro May/June 2016 issue reference below: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eiBt5n-ABfNn2ng8IwVl2yMvVHpQlZ_U/view?usp=sharing -August On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 4:34 PM August Goers wrote: > Hi William and All - > > The SolarPro Magazine article on page 35 "Updates for NEC 2017 PV Systems" > by Bill Brooks is excellent and talks about "The replacement of legacy > grounded inverters with new and improved transformerless inverters" on page > 41. > > This might be helpful for thinking through the implications of upgrading > old transformer isolated inverter systems with modern transformerless > non-isolated inverters. > > Best, > > August > Luminalt > > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: August Goers > Date: Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 6:00 PM > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Transformerless inverter conversion > To: > > > Here is the original magazine I downloaded from the Solar Pro Magazine > archives. > > August > > On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 5:42 PM William Miller > wrote: > >> August: >> >> >> >> I can’t seem to view the diagrams. Do you have access to a version with >> those available? >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* August Goers [mailto:august at luminalt.com] >> *Sent:* Thursday, September 16, 2021 3:47 PM >> *To:* William Miller >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Transformerless inverter conversion >> >> >> >> You bet! >> >> *August Goers* >> >> Principal >> >> Luminalt Energy Corporation >> >> o: 415.792.6666 >> >> m: 415.559.1525 >> >> www.luminalt.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 2:24 PM William Miller >> wrote: >> >> August: >> >> >> >> Perfect. Thank you! >> >> >> >> I hope I formatted this reply to avoid being moderated. >> >> William Miller >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> >> >> On Sep 16, 2021, at 11:58 AM, August Goers wrote: >> >>  >> >> Hi William - I think this article by Bill Brooks directly answers both of >> your questions: >> >> >> >> >> https://www.southportland.org/files/8814/8156/0204/NEC_2017_Updates_for_PV_Systems___SolarPro_Magazine.pdf >> >> >> >> -August >> >> >> >> On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 9:19 AM William Miller >> wrote: >> >> Friends: >> >> >> >> Thanks to all of you for your valuable input on the repowering project I >> am researching. I am learning a lot in the process and generating more >> questions as I proceed. Here is are questions that came up, and if any of >> you have insight, I would love to hear it: >> >> >> >> 1. Array OCPD/disconnecting. The existing array has fuses in the >> positive leads only. If we were to upgrade to transformerless inverters, >> will we be required to install OCPD in the negative leads as well? (In >> researching this I came upon this entry in 2017 NEC 690.9: *Informational >> Note: Due to improved ground-fault protection required in PV systems by >> 690.41(B), a single overcurrent protective device in either the positive or >> negative conductors of a PV system in combination with this ground-fault >> protection provides adequate overcurrent protection.*) >> >> *2.* In the 2014 NEC when installing Ungrounded PV systems, the >> following requirement appeared in 690.35: *Conductors listed and >> identified as PV wire installed as exposed, single conductors…* What >> happened to 690.35, and can I now use USE-2 on transformerless inverter >> installations? >> >> >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- > August Goers > Luminalt > o: 415.792.6666 > m: 415.559.1525 > august at luminalt.com > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Wed Apr 24 09:40:30 2024 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2024 09:40:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system In-Reply-To: References: <069aafe04cd3f594bcb40914cdd38dfd@sti.net> Message-ID: Jason, My vote would be for using a 120 to 12vDC power supply large enough to handle the remaining 12 vDC loads and skip the second battery bank. In my mind, this is simpler, cleaner, and if the power supply fails at some point, it is an easy replacement, if they still want to keep the DC loads then. Easier maintenance and operation for the client, less headache for you. I've definitely gravitated toward the KISS concept of the years, for both my and my clients' sanity... Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:26 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Ah ha! I didn't consider using a small 12V battery with a charger. I was > thinking of just using a 120V -> 12V converter to handle the DC loads. Is > the 12V battery really necessary, or can I just power the DC loads directly > with a converter? If I just have lights and fans on the DC system, the load > should be pretty minimal. > > I could use a separate 12V battery, but I would like to eliminate that > cost and complexity if possible. > > > And yeah, I am not considering this a money making opportunity. It's > really just a challenge to ward off boredom from the daily grind. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:01 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Jason, >> I have a customer with the same situation except he already has a 12 V >> VFX inverter, He has a sunfrost fridge and other small loads with a very >> fancy custom control board >> originally set up to handle AC and DC systems. We are adding a lot more >> solar and I was considering a dual battery system but the owner didn't like >> that idea. We are going with and Iota 12v power supply (i use one at my >> house for my sunfrost) to power up all his DC loads and will be adding a >> large 48 V battery bank and over 4Kw of solar using a VFXR3648 directly in >> place of the 12V inverter. He complained that the existing inverter would >> not handle all his current AC loads very well. My own house is fully wired >> for 12VDC as well as AC (lots of #10 copper not being used) and I have been >> considering getting a small LFP 12V battery to put back on by DC System. >> Then use the Iota as a secondary charging method with some of my large >> stash of older modules hooked up for 12V direct with C40 charge controller >> to recreate my original system just for kicks. I'm only using DC for my >> Sunfrost and one "emergency light" in the livingroom right now. For your >> customer, a small LFP 12v battery (approximately $500 or less) to replace >> his old battery bankm and more larger ones for the new AC side with 48V >> inverter fed by his generator or through an Iota 48 V charger ifusing a >> smaller non charging inverter. Unlike Dave, I like these challenges. Maybe >> thats why I never seem to make money.!! >> >> John Blittersdorf >> offgridvermont.com >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 7:22 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Fortunately, the owner is pretty handy and is willing to live with any >>> negative consequences. That said, I want to offer him something as simple >>> and bulletproof as possible. I am walking into this with eyes wide open, >>> for sure. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:47 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>>> Not being helpful but I walk away from these. It will come back to you. >>>> >>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>> text 209 813 0060* >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2024-04-23 2:40 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> >>>> I have an off-grid client who is working on replacing old equipment at >>>> a cabin. He has a lot of 12 volt distribution in the house for lighting, >>>> fans, and a 12 volt refrigerator. He also has 120 volt AC loads that run >>>> through a separate distribution panel where the only source is a 2000 Watt >>>> Honda generator. There is no inverter present. The batteries are charged >>>> through a Trace C40. >>>> >>>> He currently has a few ancient solar panels and a struggling Bank of >>>> AGM batteries. It's time for an upgrade. I can easily supply enough PV >>>> power for what he needs. He currently has a 9 kilowatt hour battery >>>> capacity that he was happy with when the batteries operated optimally. >>>> Nonetheless, I would probably future-proof him with a 10 to 15 kilowatt >>>> hour LiPo to double or triple his usable capacity. >>>> >>>> For convenience, obviously it would be nice to have an inverter to >>>> eliminate or reduce the generator requirement. But he seems committed to >>>> keeping his 12 volt distribution because it would be costly to replace >>>> fixtures. I think he would consider replacing the 12 volt refrigerator if >>>> he has an inverter. >>>> >>>> He definitely wants LiPo batteries. >>>> >>>> I don't like the idea of 12 volt direct from a battery plus connecting >>>> an inverter to that same battery. It is going to be hard to measure and >>>> monitor things. >>>> >>>> I am thinking about using a 48 volt battery with a single phase 120 >>>> volt inverter, getting him to change to a 120 volt refrigerator, and using >>>> a DC converter to give him somewhere in the range of 100 amps at 12 volts >>>> for his existing DC lighting and fan loads. Is this a bad idea? Should I >>>> stick with a 12 volt battery system? He does have a tiny 12 volt pressure >>>> pump which might be an issue for the converter. I'm not sure. I am a bit >>>> worried about the efficiency loss and capacity of DC converters and not >>>> sure how to size it. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Apr 24 09:47:03 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2024 06:47:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Apr 24 09:48:49 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2024 06:48:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9958A2CE-07DC-4820-A357-57EB7264A564@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Wed Apr 24 13:51:59 2024 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2024 13:51:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system In-Reply-To: References: <069aafe04cd3f594bcb40914cdd38dfd@sti.net> Message-ID: Jason, Just using the converter works fine. They are considered a battery charger or a regulated power supply. I am currently running that way now with the battery cables going nowhere. I was thinking of putting the battery back in the system just for triple redundancy when my inverter hits low battery cutoff voltage on a cold winter night and no fuel for the generator (or it won't start). My Iota DLS puts out a regulated 13.4 volts up to 30 amps. John On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:25 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Ah ha! I didn't consider using a small 12V battery with a charger. I was > thinking of just using a 120V -> 12V converter to handle the DC loads. Is > the 12V battery really necessary, or can I just power the DC loads directly > with a converter? If I just have lights and fans on the DC system, the load > should be pretty minimal. > > I could use a separate 12V battery, but I would like to eliminate that > cost and complexity if possible. > > > And yeah, I am not considering this a money making opportunity. It's > really just a challenge to ward off boredom from the daily grind. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:01 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Jason, >> I have a customer with the same situation except he already has a 12 V >> VFX inverter, He has a sunfrost fridge and other small loads with a very >> fancy custom control board >> originally set up to handle AC and DC systems. We are adding a lot more >> solar and I was considering a dual battery system but the owner didn't like >> that idea. We are going with and Iota 12v power supply (i use one at my >> house for my sunfrost) to power up all his DC loads and will be adding a >> large 48 V battery bank and over 4Kw of solar using a VFXR3648 directly in >> place of the 12V inverter. He complained that the existing inverter would >> not handle all his current AC loads very well. My own house is fully wired >> for 12VDC as well as AC (lots of #10 copper not being used) and I have been >> considering getting a small LFP 12V battery to put back on by DC System. >> Then use the Iota as a secondary charging method with some of my large >> stash of older modules hooked up for 12V direct with C40 charge controller >> to recreate my original system just for kicks. I'm only using DC for my >> Sunfrost and one "emergency light" in the livingroom right now. For your >> customer, a small LFP 12v battery (approximately $500 or less) to replace >> his old battery bankm and more larger ones for the new AC side with 48V >> inverter fed by his generator or through an Iota 48 V charger ifusing a >> smaller non charging inverter. Unlike Dave, I like these challenges. Maybe >> thats why I never seem to make money.!! >> >> John Blittersdorf >> offgridvermont.com >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 7:22 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Fortunately, the owner is pretty handy and is willing to live with any >>> negative consequences. That said, I want to offer him something as simple >>> and bulletproof as possible. I am walking into this with eyes wide open, >>> for sure. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:47 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>>> Not being helpful but I walk away from these. It will come back to you. >>>> >>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>> text 209 813 0060* >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2024-04-23 2:40 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> >>>> I have an off-grid client who is working on replacing old equipment at >>>> a cabin. He has a lot of 12 volt distribution in the house for lighting, >>>> fans, and a 12 volt refrigerator. He also has 120 volt AC loads that run >>>> through a separate distribution panel where the only source is a 2000 Watt >>>> Honda generator. There is no inverter present. The batteries are charged >>>> through a Trace C40. >>>> >>>> He currently has a few ancient solar panels and a struggling Bank of >>>> AGM batteries. It's time for an upgrade. I can easily supply enough PV >>>> power for what he needs. He currently has a 9 kilowatt hour battery >>>> capacity that he was happy with when the batteries operated optimally. >>>> Nonetheless, I would probably future-proof him with a 10 to 15 kilowatt >>>> hour LiPo to double or triple his usable capacity. >>>> >>>> For convenience, obviously it would be nice to have an inverter to >>>> eliminate or reduce the generator requirement. But he seems committed to >>>> keeping his 12 volt distribution because it would be costly to replace >>>> fixtures. I think he would consider replacing the 12 volt refrigerator if >>>> he has an inverter. >>>> >>>> He definitely wants LiPo batteries. >>>> >>>> I don't like the idea of 12 volt direct from a battery plus connecting >>>> an inverter to that same battery. It is going to be hard to measure and >>>> monitor things. >>>> >>>> I am thinking about using a 48 volt battery with a single phase 120 >>>> volt inverter, getting him to change to a 120 volt refrigerator, and using >>>> a DC converter to give him somewhere in the range of 100 amps at 12 volts >>>> for his existing DC lighting and fan loads. Is this a bad idea? Should I >>>> stick with a 12 volt battery system? He does have a tiny 12 volt pressure >>>> pump which might be an issue for the converter. I'm not sure. I am a bit >>>> worried about the efficiency loss and capacity of DC converters and not >>>> sure how to size it. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Apr 24 14:19:34 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2024 11:19:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system In-Reply-To: References: <069aafe04cd3f594bcb40914cdd38dfd@sti.net> Message-ID: How about just buy an RV? Seriously the reason Jason I am Leary is because of the experiences I have had with what I call Offgrid Squalor. Just have to be careful especially these days of druggies, people in vans with no windows, ex paramilitary that went bad, and you get the picture. If you know the person that is the way to keep you and your loved ones safe. Money does talk sometimes and the lack can of it can be a warning. Also as mentioned, these types of situations, are what gets my accountant telling me if you do not charge enough, no one will listen to your advice. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-04-24 10:51 am, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote: > Jason, > Just using the converter works fine. They are considered a battery > charger or a regulated power supply. I am currently running that way > now with the battery cables going nowhere. I was thinking of putting > the battery back in the system just for triple redundancy when my > inverter hits low battery cutoff voltage on a cold winter night and no > fuel for the generator (or it won't start). > My Iota DLS puts out a regulated 13.4 volts up to 30 amps. > > John > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:25 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Ah ha! I didn't consider using a small 12V battery with a charger. I > was thinking of just using a 120V -> 12V converter to handle the DC > loads. Is the 12V battery really necessary, or can I just power the DC > loads directly with a converter? If I just have lights and fans on the > DC system, the load should be pretty minimal. > > I could use a separate 12V battery, but I would like to eliminate that > cost and complexity if possible. > > And yeah, I am not considering this a money making opportunity. It's > really just a challenge to ward off boredom from the daily grind. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:01 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Jason, > I have a customer with the same situation except he already has a 12 V > VFX inverter, He has a sunfrost fridge and other small loads with a > very fancy custom control board > originally set up to handle AC and DC systems. We are adding a lot > more solar and I was considering a dual battery system but the owner > didn't like that idea. We are going with and Iota 12v power supply (i > use one at my house for my sunfrost) to power up all his DC loads and > will be adding a large 48 V battery bank and over 4Kw of solar using a > VFXR3648 directly in place of the 12V inverter. He complained that the > existing inverter would not handle all his current AC loads very well. > My own house is fully wired for 12VDC as well as AC (lots of #10 copper > not being used) and I have been considering getting a small LFP 12V > battery to put back on by DC System. Then use the Iota as a secondary > charging method with some of my large stash of older modules hooked up > for 12V direct with C40 charge controller to recreate my original > system just for kicks. I'm only using DC for my Sunfrost and one > "emergency light" in the livingroom right now. For your customer, a > small LFP 12v battery (approximately $500 or less) to replace his old > battery bankm and more larger ones for the new AC side with 48V > inverter fed by his generator or through an Iota 48 V charger ifusing a > smaller non charging inverter. Unlike Dave, I like these challenges. > Maybe thats why I never seem to make money.!! > > John Blittersdorf > offgridvermont.com [3] > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 7:22 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Fortunately, the owner is pretty handy and is willing to live with any > negative consequences. That said, I want to offer him something as > simple and bulletproof as possible. I am walking into this with eyes > wide open, for sure. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:47 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > Not being helpful but I walk away from these. It will come back to > you. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On 2024-04-23 2:40 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I have an off-grid client who is working on replacing old equipment at > a cabin. He has a lot of 12 volt distribution in the house for > lighting, fans, and a 12 volt refrigerator. He also has 120 volt AC > loads that run through a separate distribution panel where the only > source is a 2000 Watt Honda generator. There is no inverter present. > The batteries are charged through a Trace C40. > > He currently has a few ancient solar panels and a struggling Bank of > AGM batteries. It's time for an upgrade. I can easily supply enough PV > power for what he needs. He currently has a 9 kilowatt hour battery > capacity that he was happy with when the batteries operated optimally. > Nonetheless, I would probably future-proof him with a 10 to 15 kilowatt > hour LiPo to double or triple his usable capacity. > > For convenience, obviously it would be nice to have an inverter to > eliminate or reduce the generator requirement. But he seems committed > to keeping his 12 volt distribution because it would be costly to > replace fixtures. I think he would consider replacing the 12 volt > refrigerator if he has an inverter. > > He definitely wants LiPo batteries. > > I don't like the idea of 12 volt direct from a battery plus connecting > an inverter to that same battery. It is going to be hard to measure and > monitor things. > > I am thinking about using a 48 volt battery with a single phase 120 > volt inverter, getting him to change to a 120 volt refrigerator, and > using a DC converter to give him somewhere in the range of 100 amps at > 12 volts for his existing DC lighting and fan loads. Is this a bad > idea? Should I stick with a 12 volt battery system? He does have a tiny > 12 volt pressure pump which might be an issue for the converter. I'm > not sure. I am a bit worried about the efficiency loss and capacity of > DC converters and not sure how to size it. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ [3] http://offgridvermont.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Apr 24 14:41:57 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2024 14:41:57 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system In-Reply-To: References: <069aafe04cd3f594bcb40914cdd38dfd@sti.net> Message-ID: Hi Dave, I appreciate the concern. It's not one of those situations. We have a couple of barrier islands around here where people have set up what amounts to little fish camps that are used infrequently. The islands are also home to a few full-time/most-time residents and state parks. Everyone knows everyone. The clients are safe and reliable. These sites range from places that people paid just tens of thousands of dollars decades ago all the way up to many-multi-million dollar strips of sand where very wealthy people like to look out over Naples beach a couple times of year from their off-grid mansions. It's pretty interesting. I "get" why people who only take friends out a few times a year on a fishing expedition want a band-aid approach. There is no reason to throw $100K at a situation like this. In this case, I feel I can get creative to meet the very limited 12V and 120V needs while providing a reliable and long-lasting solution for around $25K and pocket enough money that I want to answer their call in the future. Right now they are getting by with 4 x 100W Solarland modules with a 9.6kWh battery bank and a Honda EU2000. I'm certain they will be blown away with the performance of whatever I propose, and happy that it is installed in a safe and professional manner. The current distribution systems look solid, each protected by a Square D QO breaker panel and professionally installed. The power production and delivery system is a total kludge that I feel I can fix without too much risk. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 2:19 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > How about just buy an RV? > > Seriously the reason Jason I am Leary is because of the experiences I have > had with what I call Offgrid Squalor. > > Just have to be careful especially these days of druggies, people in vans > with no windows, ex paramilitary that went bad, > and you get the picture. > > If you know the person that is the way to keep you and your loved ones > safe. Money does talk sometimes and the lack can of it > can be a warning. > > Also as mentioned, these types of situations, are what gets my accountant > telling me if you do not charge enough, > no one will listen to your advice. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2024-04-24 10:51 am, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Jason, > Just using the converter works fine. They are considered a battery > charger or a regulated power supply. I am currently running that way now > with the battery cables going nowhere. I was thinking of putting the > battery back in the system just for triple redundancy when my inverter hits > low battery cutoff voltage on a cold winter night and no fuel for the > generator (or it won't start). > My Iota DLS puts out a regulated 13.4 volts up to 30 amps. > > John > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:25 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Ah ha! I didn't consider using a small 12V battery with a charger. I was > thinking of just using a 120V -> 12V converter to handle the DC loads. Is > the 12V battery really necessary, or can I just power the DC loads directly > with a converter? If I just have lights and fans on the DC system, the load > should be pretty minimal. > > I could use a separate 12V battery, but I would like to eliminate that > cost and complexity if possible. > > > And yeah, I am not considering this a money making opportunity. It's > really just a challenge to ward off boredom from the daily grind. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:01 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Jason, > I have a customer with the same situation except he already has a 12 V > VFX inverter, He has a sunfrost fridge and other small loads with a very > fancy custom control board > originally set up to handle AC and DC systems. We are adding a lot more > solar and I was considering a dual battery system but the owner didn't like > that idea. We are going with and Iota 12v power supply (i use one at my > house for my sunfrost) to power up all his DC loads and will be adding a > large 48 V battery bank and over 4Kw of solar using a VFXR3648 directly in > place of the 12V inverter. He complained that the existing inverter would > not handle all his current AC loads very well. My own house is fully wired > for 12VDC as well as AC (lots of #10 copper not being used) and I have been > considering getting a small LFP 12V battery to put back on by DC System. > Then use the Iota as a secondary charging method with some of my large > stash of older modules hooked up for 12V direct with C40 charge controller > to recreate my original system just for kicks. I'm only using DC for my > Sunfrost and one "emergency light" in the livingroom right now. For your > customer, a small LFP 12v battery (approximately $500 or less) to replace > his old battery bankm and more larger ones for the new AC side with 48V > inverter fed by his generator or through an Iota 48 V charger ifusing a > smaller non charging inverter. Unlike Dave, I like these challenges. Maybe > thats why I never seem to make money.!! > > John Blittersdorf > offgridvermont.com > > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 7:22 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Fortunately, the owner is pretty handy and is willing to live with any > negative consequences. That said, I want to offer him something as simple > and bulletproof as possible. I am walking into this with eyes wide open, > for sure. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:47 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > Not being helpful but I walk away from these. It will come back to you. > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2024-04-23 2:40 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I have an off-grid client who is working on replacing old equipment at a > cabin. He has a lot of 12 volt distribution in the house for lighting, > fans, and a 12 volt refrigerator. He also has 120 volt AC loads that run > through a separate distribution panel where the only source is a 2000 Watt > Honda generator. There is no inverter present. The batteries are charged > through a Trace C40. > > He currently has a few ancient solar panels and a struggling Bank of AGM > batteries. It's time for an upgrade. I can easily supply enough PV power > for what he needs. He currently has a 9 kilowatt hour battery capacity that > he was happy with when the batteries operated optimally. Nonetheless, I > would probably future-proof him with a 10 to 15 kilowatt hour LiPo to > double or triple his usable capacity. > > For convenience, obviously it would be nice to have an inverter to > eliminate or reduce the generator requirement. But he seems committed to > keeping his 12 volt distribution because it would be costly to replace > fixtures. I think he would consider replacing the 12 volt refrigerator if > he has an inverter. > > He definitely wants LiPo batteries. > > I don't like the idea of 12 volt direct from a battery plus connecting an > inverter to that same battery. It is going to be hard to measure and > monitor things. > > I am thinking about using a 48 volt battery with a single phase 120 volt > inverter, getting him to change to a 120 volt refrigerator, and using a DC > converter to give him somewhere in the range of 100 amps at 12 volts for > his existing DC lighting and fan loads. Is this a bad idea? Should I stick > with a 12 volt battery system? He does have a tiny 12 volt pressure pump > which might be an issue for the converter. I'm not sure. I am a bit worried > about the efficiency loss and capacity of DC converters and not sure how to > size it. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Wed Apr 24 15:33:04 2024 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2024 15:33:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid-Tied Radian Force Discharge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Maverick and Steve, Thank you much for pointing me in the right direction here. I was looking at the Radian setting and not the Mate3S settings. I've decided to use the flextime schedule to have it go to grid zero mode at night when we will not be exporting any solar power anyway. It really does not matter in this case whether the batteries get recharged by the grid or from the AC coupled solar. Cheers, Dave On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:25 PM Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Yes, Grid Zero would work, but the customer wouldn't be selling power to > the utility. You could program the Radan to sell more power by lowering > the sell voltage. I would get aggressive with it for at least 20-30 cycles > to see if you can recover some capacity. Ideally, to recover lost capacity > from lead batteries, you want to do 50-80% cycling for at least 5-10 > cycles. > > I would be cautious about HBX mode, its issue, and why this mode should > have died with the old Trace Eng inverters... HBX mode tends to kill > battery banks if left there too long or you are not getting the battery to > 100%. The problem with HBX mode is that there is no way to control absorb > timers, so the batteries get to the 80-85% range but never get to full; if > the batteries are lead, this is going to create sulfation problems, and if > AGM will end up in severe swelling. If I remember correctly, you can > adjust the delay timer for HBX, which should be equal to the programmed > Absrob timers, but I don't know if they killed this in the new firmware. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager > t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 > f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for > the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged > material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the > taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If > you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or > destroy this message and all copies. > ------------------------------ > > > On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 1:53 PM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> You can do it in one of several easy ways. >> >> HPX mode on the Mate. High Battery transfer. When the battery voltage >> and/or SOC is above the setpoint drop the grid. When the battery voltage or >> state of charge goes below the setpoint pick up the grid. This case the >> Mate is doing the driving. >> >> Also available is Grid Zero mode where the inserter decides to zero the >> loads based on battery voltage and AC amp load. Then you would set the >> ReBulk set point on the inverter charger to trigger charging the batteries >> instead of zero AC loads. >> >> The third choice is to program something called FlexTime where you set >> the schedule of the AC input mode from grid tide to red zero or off grid, >> etc. >> >> It’s the system is on OpticsRE, you can adjust the settings fine-tune to >> get the best performance out of those Northstar batteries. >> >> I just decommissioned a 36 battery group of Northstar batteries after 13 >> years and most of them are still viable. >> >> As a precaution, For AC coupling, I also install a high battery AUX port >> controlled relay that drops the AC coupling input circuit. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Maverick >> >> Maverick Brown >> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 >> Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. >> • Solar Commander Remote Power >> • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection >> maverick at mavericksolar.com >> 512-460-9825 >> >> >> >> On Apr 23, 2024, at 3:36 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> Hi All, >> >> I have an AC coupled Radian that is used to back up certain loads when >> the grid is down. It is paired with the Northstar Blue (Outback) batteries. >> The system sits in float nearly all the time. During a recent grid outage, >> the batteries had less than half the capacity that I would have expected, >> and they are only about 3.5 years old with very few cycles on them. >> >> I tried to talk to Outback about it, which seems to not be possible >> anymore. I did talk to Northstar, and they recommend not leaving the >> batteries in float all the time. >> >> I am wondering if anyone knows of a way to force the Radian to >> automatically discharge the batteries to a certain voltage ideally once a >> week, but could do daily. Essentially, I would like to utilize a time of >> use schedule where I can force the radian to not use the grid and just use >> the battery to power the loads for a little while. Ideally this would be >> automatic, and not require the customer to go through the grid breaker >> every once in a while. It seems that from the manual, I need to keep the >> Radian in Grid Tie mode in order for it to be able to sell excess PV back >> to the grid. Any ideas? >> >> Thanks! >> -Dave >> >> -- >> [image: Logo] >> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >> Owner | Sungineer Solar >> p: he | him | his >> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> w: www.sungineersolar.com >> c: (607) 270-0370 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Apr 25 09:03:10 2024 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2024 07:03:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar pumping stormwater Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, Im looking for recommendations on solar pumps for a stormwater overflow application. The water will be cruddy so the pump would need to be able to tolerate that, although we will do our best to mitigate that. I'd like to be able to pump about 20,000 gallons per day or so at a head of 20'. My preference is no batteries but we could design in batteries. Any input is appreciated! -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Thu Apr 25 10:33:49 2024 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2024 07:33:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system In-Reply-To: References: <069aafe04cd3f594bcb40914cdd38dfd@sti.net> Message-ID: I had a lot of trouble keeping QO breakers functional on a 12VDC distribution system. I'd have to move them around every week or so to keep a good contact on the plug in contacts. They seem to work fine on a 24VDC system. I went to using MNPV or MNDC breakers instead in PV combiner or other MidNite boxes. QOU breakers are fine, but I don't know of any standard distribution box for them. Brad Bassett Application Engineer retired On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 11:42 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Dave, > > I appreciate the concern. It's not one of those situations. We have a > couple of barrier islands around here where people have set up what amounts > to little fish camps that are used infrequently. The islands are also home > to a few full-time/most-time residents and state parks. Everyone knows > everyone. The clients are safe and reliable. These sites range from places > that people paid just tens of thousands of dollars decades ago all the way > up to many-multi-million dollar strips of sand where very wealthy people > like to look out over Naples beach a couple times of year from their > off-grid mansions. It's pretty interesting. > > I "get" why people who only take friends out a few times a year on a > fishing expedition want a band-aid approach. There is no reason to throw > $100K at a situation like this. In this case, I feel I can get creative to > meet the very limited 12V and 120V needs while providing a reliable and > long-lasting solution for around $25K and pocket enough money that I want > to answer their call in the future. Right now they are getting by with 4 x > 100W Solarland modules with a 9.6kWh battery bank and a Honda EU2000. I'm > certain they will be blown away with the performance of whatever I propose, > and happy that it is installed in a safe and professional manner. > > The current distribution systems look solid, each protected by a Square D > QO breaker panel and professionally installed. The power production and > delivery system is a total kludge that I feel I can fix without too much > risk. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 2:19 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via > RE-wrenches wrote: > >> How about just buy an RV? >> >> Seriously the reason Jason I am Leary is because of the experiences I >> have had with what I call Offgrid Squalor. >> >> Just have to be careful especially these days of druggies, people in vans >> with no windows, ex paramilitary that went bad, >> and you get the picture. >> >> If you know the person that is the way to keep you and your loved ones >> safe. Money does talk sometimes and the lack can of it >> can be a warning. >> >> Also as mentioned, these types of situations, are what gets my accountant >> telling me if you do not charge enough, >> no one will listen to your advice. >> >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> >> On 2024-04-24 10:51 am, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Jason, >> Just using the converter works fine. They are considered a battery >> charger or a regulated power supply. I am currently running that way now >> with the battery cables going nowhere. I was thinking of putting the >> battery back in the system just for triple redundancy when my inverter hits >> low battery cutoff voltage on a cold winter night and no fuel for the >> generator (or it won't start). >> My Iota DLS puts out a regulated 13.4 volts up to 30 amps. >> >> John >> >> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:25 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Ah ha! I didn't consider using a small 12V battery with a charger. I was >> thinking of just using a 120V -> 12V converter to handle the DC loads. Is >> the 12V battery really necessary, or can I just power the DC loads directly >> with a converter? If I just have lights and fans on the DC system, the load >> should be pretty minimal. >> >> I could use a separate 12V battery, but I would like to eliminate that >> cost and complexity if possible. >> >> >> And yeah, I am not considering this a money making opportunity. It's >> really just a challenge to ward off boredom from the daily grind. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:01 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Jason, >> I have a customer with the same situation except he already has a 12 V >> VFX inverter, He has a sunfrost fridge and other small loads with a very >> fancy custom control board >> originally set up to handle AC and DC systems. We are adding a lot more >> solar and I was considering a dual battery system but the owner didn't like >> that idea. We are going with and Iota 12v power supply (i use one at my >> house for my sunfrost) to power up all his DC loads and will be adding a >> large 48 V battery bank and over 4Kw of solar using a VFXR3648 directly in >> place of the 12V inverter. He complained that the existing inverter would >> not handle all his current AC loads very well. My own house is fully wired >> for 12VDC as well as AC (lots of #10 copper not being used) and I have been >> considering getting a small LFP 12V battery to put back on by DC System. >> Then use the Iota as a secondary charging method with some of my large >> stash of older modules hooked up for 12V direct with C40 charge controller >> to recreate my original system just for kicks. I'm only using DC for my >> Sunfrost and one "emergency light" in the livingroom right now. For your >> customer, a small LFP 12v battery (approximately $500 or less) to replace >> his old battery bankm and more larger ones for the new AC side with 48V >> inverter fed by his generator or through an Iota 48 V charger ifusing a >> smaller non charging inverter. Unlike Dave, I like these challenges. Maybe >> thats why I never seem to make money.!! >> >> John Blittersdorf >> offgridvermont.com >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 7:22 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Fortunately, the owner is pretty handy and is willing to live with any >> negative consequences. That said, I want to offer him something as simple >> and bulletproof as possible. I am walking into this with eyes wide open, >> for sure. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:47 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >> RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Not being helpful but I walk away from these. It will come back to you. >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> >> On 2024-04-23 2:40 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> I have an off-grid client who is working on replacing old equipment at a >> cabin. He has a lot of 12 volt distribution in the house for lighting, >> fans, and a 12 volt refrigerator. He also has 120 volt AC loads that run >> through a separate distribution panel where the only source is a 2000 Watt >> Honda generator. There is no inverter present. The batteries are charged >> through a Trace C40. >> >> He currently has a few ancient solar panels and a struggling Bank of AGM >> batteries. It's time for an upgrade. I can easily supply enough PV power >> for what he needs. He currently has a 9 kilowatt hour battery capacity that >> he was happy with when the batteries operated optimally. Nonetheless, I >> would probably future-proof him with a 10 to 15 kilowatt hour LiPo to >> double or triple his usable capacity. >> >> For convenience, obviously it would be nice to have an inverter to >> eliminate or reduce the generator requirement. But he seems committed to >> keeping his 12 volt distribution because it would be costly to replace >> fixtures. I think he would consider replacing the 12 volt refrigerator if >> he has an inverter. >> >> He definitely wants LiPo batteries. >> >> I don't like the idea of 12 volt direct from a battery plus connecting an >> inverter to that same battery. It is going to be hard to measure and >> monitor things. >> >> I am thinking about using a 48 volt battery with a single phase 120 volt >> inverter, getting him to change to a 120 volt refrigerator, and using a DC >> converter to give him somewhere in the range of 100 amps at 12 volts for >> his existing DC lighting and fan loads. Is this a bad idea? Should I stick >> with a 12 volt battery system? He does have a tiny 12 volt pressure pump >> which might be an issue for the converter. I'm not sure. I am a bit worried >> about the efficiency loss and capacity of DC converters and not sure how to >> size it. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Thu Apr 25 11:52:41 2024 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2024 08:52:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system In-Reply-To: References: <069aafe04cd3f594bcb40914cdd38dfd@sti.net> Message-ID: Here's a different take. Just food for thought and not necessarily a suggestion. Those 1st or 2nd Gen 12V systems were/are for me the most reliable and trouble free systems. I'd install one and never hear back from my customer for a decade or more. I regularly see "rats nest" wired 12V/Trace DR/UX hybrid systems with Arco panels that still hum along. When I get asked to update these systems, assuming that the power needs haven't grown much, I usually keep the voltages the same (12VDC and 120VAC), sanitize the wiring, add OCPDs, Victron smart shunt/Battery monitor, Victron CC and inverter, and Lead Acids or AGM's. Good for another 20 years with batteries being replaced in 10. With only a few exceptions, every ancient system that I have tried to bring into the 21st century for my low needs off-grid pioneers has been a flop. Inverters and Charge controllers that take a dump after a few years, TMI with new monitor/controllers, and lots of headaches with Lithium. Now, if we're talking about a client who has just purchased a property with a legacy system and wants to live like they are still in the City, that's an entirely different conversation. My own system for my full time off-grid home is 12V/120V, and I live Fat! Tiny array (700Ws 4 hours a day), tiny hydro (150Ws 7 months a year) 2 Rolls 21 CS-21Ps, Honda eu2000i, 12VDC Sunfrost, 12VDC device charging station, 12VDC UV water disinfection (gravity spring water) on a 12VDC loadcenter (SQD QO), Morningstar 300W Suresine powers an AC loadcenter for lighting and most plugs) Magnum 2812 powers a loadcenter that feeds bathroom and kitchen plugs. It stays off to reduce idle consumption). I've never had a problem with this system in 15 years. If I'm not around, or my financials are weak, replacing a piece of equipment won't hurt myself or my wife. If need be, I can charge from a vehicle or farm equipment. And I could pull a battery from something here on the ranch in a pinch. The wiring/installation is clear and I made a manual so that any decent electrician could troubleshoot and make repairs should Todd Cory not be around :) Again, I say all this to provoke a thought experiment. I've installed and replaced hundreds upon hundreds of off-grid systems from pinky dinky to millions and the ones that have worked the best were/are either AC Hydro, old-school (pre-Xantrex) or Schneider/Discover and the latter have had their share of issues. On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 7:34 AM Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I had a lot of trouble keeping QO breakers functional on a 12VDC > distribution system. I'd have to move them around every week or so to keep > a good contact on the plug in contacts. They seem to work fine on a 24VDC > system. I went to using MNPV or MNDC breakers instead in PV combiner or > other MidNite boxes. QOU breakers are fine, but I don't know of any > standard distribution box for them. > > Brad Bassett > Application Engineer retired > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 11:42 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi Dave, >> >> I appreciate the concern. It's not one of those situations. We have a >> couple of barrier islands around here where people have set up what amounts >> to little fish camps that are used infrequently. The islands are also home >> to a few full-time/most-time residents and state parks. Everyone knows >> everyone. The clients are safe and reliable. These sites range from places >> that people paid just tens of thousands of dollars decades ago all the way >> up to many-multi-million dollar strips of sand where very wealthy people >> like to look out over Naples beach a couple times of year from their >> off-grid mansions. It's pretty interesting. >> >> I "get" why people who only take friends out a few times a year on a >> fishing expedition want a band-aid approach. There is no reason to throw >> $100K at a situation like this. In this case, I feel I can get creative to >> meet the very limited 12V and 120V needs while providing a reliable and >> long-lasting solution for around $25K and pocket enough money that I want >> to answer their call in the future. Right now they are getting by with 4 x >> 100W Solarland modules with a 9.6kWh battery bank and a Honda EU2000. I'm >> certain they will be blown away with the performance of whatever I propose, >> and happy that it is installed in a safe and professional manner. >> >> The current distribution systems look solid, each protected by a Square D >> QO breaker panel and professionally installed. The power production and >> delivery system is a total kludge that I feel I can fix without too much >> risk. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 2:19 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >> RE-wrenches wrote: >> >>> How about just buy an RV? >>> >>> Seriously the reason Jason I am Leary is because of the experiences I >>> have had with what I call Offgrid Squalor. >>> >>> Just have to be careful especially these days of druggies, people in >>> vans with no windows, ex paramilitary that went bad, >>> and you get the picture. >>> >>> If you know the person that is the way to keep you and your loved ones >>> safe. Money does talk sometimes and the lack can of it >>> can be a warning. >>> >>> Also as mentioned, these types of situations, are what gets my >>> accountant telling me if you do not charge enough, >>> no one will listen to your advice. >>> >>> >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060* >>> >>> >>> On 2024-04-24 10:51 am, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Jason, >>> Just using the converter works fine. They are considered a battery >>> charger or a regulated power supply. I am currently running that way now >>> with the battery cables going nowhere. I was thinking of putting the >>> battery back in the system just for triple redundancy when my inverter hits >>> low battery cutoff voltage on a cold winter night and no fuel for the >>> generator (or it won't start). >>> My Iota DLS puts out a regulated 13.4 volts up to 30 amps. >>> >>> John >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:25 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> Ah ha! I didn't consider using a small 12V battery with a charger. I was >>> thinking of just using a 120V -> 12V converter to handle the DC loads. Is >>> the 12V battery really necessary, or can I just power the DC loads directly >>> with a converter? If I just have lights and fans on the DC system, the load >>> should be pretty minimal. >>> >>> I could use a separate 12V battery, but I would like to eliminate that >>> cost and complexity if possible. >>> >>> >>> And yeah, I am not considering this a money making opportunity. It's >>> really just a challenge to ward off boredom from the daily grind. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:01 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> Jason, >>> I have a customer with the same situation except he already has a 12 V >>> VFX inverter, He has a sunfrost fridge and other small loads with a very >>> fancy custom control board >>> originally set up to handle AC and DC systems. We are adding a lot more >>> solar and I was considering a dual battery system but the owner didn't like >>> that idea. We are going with and Iota 12v power supply (i use one at my >>> house for my sunfrost) to power up all his DC loads and will be adding a >>> large 48 V battery bank and over 4Kw of solar using a VFXR3648 directly in >>> place of the 12V inverter. He complained that the existing inverter would >>> not handle all his current AC loads very well. My own house is fully wired >>> for 12VDC as well as AC (lots of #10 copper not being used) and I have been >>> considering getting a small LFP 12V battery to put back on by DC System. >>> Then use the Iota as a secondary charging method with some of my large >>> stash of older modules hooked up for 12V direct with C40 charge controller >>> to recreate my original system just for kicks. I'm only using DC for my >>> Sunfrost and one "emergency light" in the livingroom right now. For your >>> customer, a small LFP 12v battery (approximately $500 or less) to replace >>> his old battery bankm and more larger ones for the new AC side with 48V >>> inverter fed by his generator or through an Iota 48 V charger ifusing a >>> smaller non charging inverter. Unlike Dave, I like these challenges. Maybe >>> thats why I never seem to make money.!! >>> >>> John Blittersdorf >>> offgridvermont.com >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 7:22 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> Fortunately, the owner is pretty handy and is willing to live with any >>> negative consequences. That said, I want to offer him something as simple >>> and bulletproof as possible. I am walking into this with eyes wide open, >>> for sure. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:47 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Not being helpful but I walk away from these. It will come back to you. >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060* >>> >>> >>> On 2024-04-23 2:40 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> I have an off-grid client who is working on replacing old equipment at a >>> cabin. He has a lot of 12 volt distribution in the house for lighting, >>> fans, and a 12 volt refrigerator. He also has 120 volt AC loads that run >>> through a separate distribution panel where the only source is a 2000 Watt >>> Honda generator. There is no inverter present. The batteries are charged >>> through a Trace C40. >>> >>> He currently has a few ancient solar panels and a struggling Bank of AGM >>> batteries. It's time for an upgrade. I can easily supply enough PV power >>> for what he needs. He currently has a 9 kilowatt hour battery capacity that >>> he was happy with when the batteries operated optimally. Nonetheless, I >>> would probably future-proof him with a 10 to 15 kilowatt hour LiPo to >>> double or triple his usable capacity. >>> >>> For convenience, obviously it would be nice to have an inverter to >>> eliminate or reduce the generator requirement. But he seems committed to >>> keeping his 12 volt distribution because it would be costly to replace >>> fixtures. I think he would consider replacing the 12 volt refrigerator if >>> he has an inverter. >>> >>> He definitely wants LiPo batteries. >>> >>> I don't like the idea of 12 volt direct from a battery plus connecting >>> an inverter to that same battery. It is going to be hard to measure and >>> monitor things. >>> >>> I am thinking about using a 48 volt battery with a single phase 120 volt >>> inverter, getting him to change to a 120 volt refrigerator, and using a DC >>> converter to give him somewhere in the range of 100 amps at 12 volts for >>> his existing DC lighting and fan loads. Is this a bad idea? Should I stick >>> with a 12 volt battery system? He does have a tiny 12 volt pressure pump >>> which might be an issue for the converter. I'm not sure. I am a bit worried >>> about the efficiency loss and capacity of DC converters and not sure how to >>> size it. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Apr 25 12:44:19 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2024 09:44:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system In-Reply-To: References: <069aafe04cd3f594bcb40914cdd38dfd@sti.net> Message-ID: <103097a6d073bad4af9710827930d991@sti.net> Certainly the old gear was simple and probably had a better chance to survive a solar event, EMP, or worse. It did have to have some one like you (us) or Todd steering the boat. No auto-pilot for sure. Most of my clients see the graphically based power (on-line somewhere) system and that is what they want. Just too easy for the spose or kids to see and too hard to know the difference between 12.0 and 12.8. I also think many do not expect to live as in the city but somewhere in between what Michael is saying here. You guys have seen all of this below on similar systems. For a new client it can be a game changer and some peace in these weird (I think) times. Might be best to have both 😉😉😎😎👍 Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-04-25 8:52 am, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Here's a different take. Just food for thought and not necessarily a > suggestion. Those 1st or 2nd Gen 12V systems were/are for me the most > reliable and trouble free systems. I'd install one and never hear back > from my customer for a decade or more. I regularly see "rats nest" > wired 12V/Trace DR/UX hybrid systems with Arco panels that still hum > along. When I get asked to update these systems, assuming that the > power needs haven't grown much, I usually keep the voltages the same > (12VDC and 120VAC), sanitize the wiring, add OCPDs, Victron smart > shunt/Battery monitor, Victron CC and inverter, and Lead Acids or > AGM's. Good for another 20 years with batteries being replaced in 10. > With only a few exceptions, every ancient system that I have tried to > bring into the 21st century for my low needs off-grid pioneers has been > a flop. Inverters and Charge controllers that take a dump after a few > years, TMI with new monitor/controllers, and lots of headaches with > Lithium. > > Now, if we're talking about a client who has just purchased a property > with a legacy system and wants to live like they are still in the City, > that's an entirely different conversation. > > My own system for my full time off-grid home is 12V/120V, and I live > Fat! Tiny array (700Ws 4 hours a day), tiny hydro (150Ws 7 months a > year) 2 Rolls 21 CS-21Ps, Honda eu2000i, 12VDC Sunfrost, 12VDC device > charging station, 12VDC UV water disinfection (gravity spring water) on > a 12VDC loadcenter (SQD QO), Morningstar 300W Suresine powers an AC > loadcenter for lighting and most plugs) Magnum 2812 powers a loadcenter > that feeds bathroom and kitchen plugs. It stays off to reduce idle > consumption). I've never had a problem with this system in 15 years. If > I'm not around, or my financials are weak, replacing a piece of > equipment won't hurt myself or my wife. If need be, I can charge from a > vehicle or farm equipment. And I could pull a battery from something > here on the ranch in a pinch. The wiring/installation is clear and I > made a manual so that any decent electrician could troubleshoot and > make repairs should Todd Cory not be around :) > > Again, I say all this to provoke a thought experiment. I've installed > and replaced hundreds upon hundreds of off-grid systems from pinky > dinky to millions and the ones that have worked the best were/are > either AC Hydro, old-school (pre-Xantrex) or Schneider/Discover and the > latter have had their share of issues. > > On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 7:34 AM Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches > wrote: > I had a lot of trouble keeping QO breakers functional on a 12VDC > distribution system. I'd have to move them around every week or so to > keep a good contact on the plug in contacts. They seem to work fine on > a 24VDC system. I went to using MNPV or MNDC breakers instead in PV > combiner or other MidNite boxes. QOU breakers are fine, but I don't > know of any standard distribution box for them. > > Brad Bassett > Application Engineer retired > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 11:42 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi Dave, > > I appreciate the concern. It's not one of those situations. We have a > couple of barrier islands around here where people have set up what > amounts to little fish camps that are used infrequently. The islands > are also home to a few full-time/most-time residents and state parks. > Everyone knows everyone. The clients are safe and reliable. These sites > range from places that people paid just tens of thousands of dollars > decades ago all the way up to many-multi-million dollar strips of sand > where very wealthy people like to look out over Naples beach a couple > times of year from their off-grid mansions. It's pretty interesting. > > I "get" why people who only take friends out a few times a year on a > fishing expedition want a band-aid approach. There is no reason to > throw $100K at a situation like this. In this case, I feel I can get > creative to meet the very limited 12V and 120V needs while providing a > reliable and long-lasting solution for around $25K and pocket enough > money that I want to answer their call in the future. Right now they > are getting by with 4 x 100W Solarland modules with a 9.6kWh battery > bank and a Honda EU2000. I'm certain they will be blown away with the > performance of whatever I propose, and happy that it is installed in a > safe and professional manner. > > The current distribution systems look solid, each protected by a Square > D QO breaker panel and professionally installed. The power production > and delivery system is a total kludge that I feel I can fix without too > much risk. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 2:19 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > How about just buy an RV? > > Seriously the reason Jason I am Leary is because of the experiences I > have had with what I call Offgrid Squalor. > > Just have to be careful especially these days of druggies, people in > vans with no windows, ex paramilitary that went bad, > and you get the picture. > > If you know the person that is the way to keep you and your loved ones > safe. Money does talk sometimes and the lack can of it > can be a warning. > > Also as mentioned, these types of situations, are what gets my > accountant telling me if you do not charge enough, > no one will listen to your advice. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On 2024-04-24 10:51 am, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Jason, > Just using the converter works fine. They are considered a battery > charger or a regulated power supply. I am currently running that way > now with the battery cables going nowhere. I was thinking of putting > the battery back in the system just for triple redundancy when my > inverter hits low battery cutoff voltage on a cold winter night and no > fuel for the generator (or it won't start). > My Iota DLS puts out a regulated 13.4 volts up to 30 amps. > > John > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:25 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Ah ha! I didn't consider using a small 12V battery with a charger. I > was thinking of just using a 120V -> 12V converter to handle the DC > loads. Is the 12V battery really necessary, or can I just power the DC > loads directly with a converter? If I just have lights and fans on the > DC system, the load should be pretty minimal. > > I could use a separate 12V battery, but I would like to eliminate that > cost and complexity if possible. > > And yeah, I am not considering this a money making opportunity. It's > really just a challenge to ward off boredom from the daily grind. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:01 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Jason, > I have a customer with the same situation except he already has a 12 V > VFX inverter, He has a sunfrost fridge and other small loads with a > very fancy custom control board > originally set up to handle AC and DC systems. We are adding a lot > more solar and I was considering a dual battery system but the owner > didn't like that idea. We are going with and Iota 12v power supply (i > use one at my house for my sunfrost) to power up all his DC loads and > will be adding a large 48 V battery bank and over 4Kw of solar using a > VFXR3648 directly in place of the 12V inverter. He complained that the > existing inverter would not handle all his current AC loads very well. > My own house is fully wired for 12VDC as well as AC (lots of #10 copper > not being used) and I have been considering getting a small LFP 12V > battery to put back on by DC System. Then use the Iota as a secondary > charging method with some of my large stash of older modules hooked up > for 12V direct with C40 charge controller to recreate my original > system just for kicks. I'm only using DC for my Sunfrost and one > "emergency light" in the livingroom right now. For your customer, a > small LFP 12v battery (approximately $500 or less) to replace his old > battery bankm and more larger ones for the new AC side with 48V > inverter fed by his generator or through an Iota 48 V charger ifusing a > smaller non charging inverter. Unlike Dave, I like these challenges. > Maybe thats why I never seem to make money.!! > > John Blittersdorf > offgridvermont.com [3] > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 7:22 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Fortunately, the owner is pretty handy and is willing to live with any > negative consequences. That said, I want to offer him something as > simple and bulletproof as possible. I am walking into this with eyes > wide open, for sure. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:47 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > Not being helpful but I walk away from these. It will come back to > you. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On 2024-04-23 2:40 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I have an off-grid client who is working on replacing old equipment at > a cabin. He has a lot of 12 volt distribution in the house for > lighting, fans, and a 12 volt refrigerator. He also has 120 volt AC > loads that run through a separate distribution panel where the only > source is a 2000 Watt Honda generator. There is no inverter present. > The batteries are charged through a Trace C40. > > He currently has a few ancient solar panels and a struggling Bank of > AGM batteries. It's time for an upgrade. I can easily supply enough PV > power for what he needs. He currently has a 9 kilowatt hour battery > capacity that he was happy with when the batteries operated optimally. > Nonetheless, I would probably future-proof him with a 10 to 15 kilowatt > hour LiPo to double or triple his usable capacity. > > For convenience, obviously it would be nice to have an inverter to > eliminate or reduce the generator requirement. But he seems committed > to keeping his 12 volt distribution because it would be costly to > replace fixtures. I think he would consider replacing the 12 volt > refrigerator if he has an inverter. > > He definitely wants LiPo batteries. > > I don't like the idea of 12 volt direct from a battery plus connecting > an inverter to that same battery. It is going to be hard to measure and > monitor things. > > I am thinking about using a 48 volt battery with a single phase 120 > volt inverter, getting him to change to a 120 volt refrigerator, and > using a DC converter to give him somewhere in the range of 100 amps at > 12 volts for his existing DC lighting and fan loads. Is this a bad > idea? Should I stick with a 12 volt battery system? He does have a tiny > 12 volt pressure pump which might be an issue for the converter. I'm > not sure. I am a bit worried about the efficiency loss and capacity of > DC converters and not sure how to size it. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ [3] http://offgridvermont.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: e44b8da1.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 56593 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 8b88f467.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 63215 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Thu Apr 25 13:24:43 2024 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2024 17:24:43 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Pro Firmware 2.04 melting devices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, Curious if anyone else has seen this issue. New XW Pro off-grid system installed Dec 2023. Pretty standard config for us, XW Pro, 5 kW PV, 50 kWh UnigyII battery, 8 kW high quality diesel generator. This system ran fine all winter long - powering customer's big RV they were living in while the house is built, Shop, computer controlled outdoor wood boiler, domestic loads + 3 person construction crew. Gen ran daily on auto start as we don't get much sun Dec - Feb. No issues reported. Couple weeks back I did a new system check up. All performing well, happy client. Part of that service I upgraded the XW firmware from 1.09 to 2.04, and insight from 1.16 to 1.18. Gave the system a quick check, ran gen. Lots of sun now, batteries full so didn't do a long generator test. Yes I set the region codes for off-grid. A week later, while I was out of town and it was not so sunny so gen running, client and their electrician called me in a panic. Two smoke detectors had literally melted, as well as several dimmable LED fixtures all failed. Electrician replaced the burned up devices, only to have the same thing repeat a few days later. Talking with them it was only when the generator was running there were issues. Told them to lock out gen and I will get there when I can. Once back I attended site, fired up gen, and could hear the inverter sounding terrible during gen charging. Lights flickering bad, and I personally verified the smoke detectors beeping and getting warm and the house smelled like burned plastic. I hooked up my power quality analyser and could see the THD gradually building to over 36%. Gen voltage was at 125/250V a bit high, so adjusted that, but no change. By reducing the charge rate on the XW Pro to 50% was able to get the THD down around 12% and less light flicker. But it's still too high. Image attached shows THD with gen on original programing, then at reduced charge rate. Have now gone from a happy client to a pissed off client threatening legal action for endangering their lives & a bill from the electrician. Ugh. Having a hard time explaining this to the client why a system previously working fine went sideways so badly. Old guy blames the "darned computer stuff" and he's not wrong with that opinion. At another site, similar config but larger system with dual XW's that I upgraded to 2.04 firmware remotely few days ago and now the two inverters are literally fighting each other under generator charge - one load building to +6 kW and one (minus)6 kW. Sure makes me reluctant to upgrade firmware on systems that are working fine. Any suggestions? Kevin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20240425_095741.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 724429 bytes Desc: 20240425_095741.jpg URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Apr 25 13:33:59 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2024 11:33:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system In-Reply-To: References: <069aafe04cd3f594bcb40914cdd38dfd@sti.net> Message-ID: Hi Michael; I don't think its 12v, I have old Trace 48 v systems still humming along 24 years later, too. Some of it, is the customers. The old school off grid folks knew how to conserve energy, watch the sun, and were not going to call unless they couldn't fix it themselves. Also, the equipment was built much better back then for sure, I have a new Magnum install that is just a disaster, voltage dips below 100 vac, every time any larger load goes on (well pump, garbage disposal, fridge, coffee maker) and I've replaced 3 BMK battery monitors under warranty so far. Apparently you can NOT disconnect or connect the BMK with its built in 4 pin *connector*, or it will smoke the unit.  That is a new problem, they used to be robust.  I have many older Magnum systems that are great.  Magnum quality has taken a huge dive since being acquired by Sensata. If it wasn't for Trace, old Outback, and old Magnum stuff being reliable, I would have gone out of business decades ago.  Now it looks like I need to find a new line of work, just a few years before retirement, because manufacturers no longer prioritize reliability.  Meanwhile Li+ is what new customers expect, yet its still not ready for prime time, either.  I have an installer buddy that is having all sorts of trouble with an EG4 battery setup, and the installation isn't even complete. He's already had to dark start them several times, and now they won't even stay operational for more than a few minutes.  The cheapo BMS lears its ugly head once again.  All we're doing lately is fixing stuff less than 5 years old. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 4/25/2024 9:52 AM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Here's a different take. Just food for thought and not necessarily a > suggestion. Those 1st or 2nd Gen 12V systems were/are for me the most > reliable and trouble free systems. I'd install one and never hear back > from my customer for a decade or more. I regularly see "rats nest" > wired 12V/Trace DR/UX hybrid systems with Arco panels that still hum > along. When I get asked to update these systems, assuming that the > power needs haven't grown much, I usually keep the voltages the same > (12VDC and 120VAC), sanitize the wiring, add OCPDs, Victron smart > shunt/Battery monitor, Victron CC and inverter, and Lead Acids or > AGM's. Good for another 20 years with batteries being replaced in 10. > With only a few exceptions, every ancient system that I have tried to > bring into the 21st century for my low needs off-grid pioneers has > been a flop. Inverters and Charge controllers that take a dump after a > few years, TMI with new monitor/controllers, and lots of headaches > with Lithium. > > Now, if we're talking about a client who has just purchased a property > with a legacy system and wants to live like they are still in the > City, that's an entirely different conversation. > > My own system for my full time off-grid home is 12V/120V, and I live > Fat! Tiny array (700Ws 4 hours a day), tiny hydro (150Ws 7 months a > year) 2 Rolls 21 CS-21Ps, Honda eu2000i, 12VDC Sunfrost, 12VDC device > charging station, 12VDC UV water disinfection (gravity spring water) > on a 12VDC loadcenter (SQD QO), Morningstar 300W Suresine powers an AC > loadcenter for lighting and most plugs) Magnum 2812 powers a > loadcenter that feeds bathroom and kitchen plugs. It stays off to > reduce idle consumption). I've never had a problem with this system in > 15 years. If I'm not around, or my financials are weak, replacing a > piece of equipment won't hurt myself or my wife. If need be, I can > charge from a vehicle or farm equipment. And I could pull a battery > from something here on the ranch in a pinch. The wiring/installation > is clear and I made a manual so that any decent electrician could > troubleshoot and make repairs should Todd Cory not be around :) > > Again, I say all this to provoke a thought experiment. I've installed > and replaced hundreds upon hundreds of off-grid systems from pinky > dinky to millions and the ones that have worked the best were/are > either AC Hydro, old-school (pre-Xantrex) or Schneider/Discover and > the latter have had their share of issues. > > On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 7:34 AM Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > I had a lot of trouble keeping QO breakers functional on a 12VDC > distribution system. I'd have to move them around every week or so > to keep a good contact on the plug in contacts. They seem to work > fine on a 24VDC system. I went to using MNPV or MNDC breakers > instead in PV combiner or other MidNite boxes. QOU breakers are > fine, but I don't know of any standard distribution box for them. > > Brad Bassett > Application Engineer retired > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 11:42 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi Dave, > > I appreciate the concern. It's not one of those situations. We > have a couple of barrier islands around here where people have > set up what amounts to little fish camps that are used > infrequently. The islands are also home to a few > full-time/most-time residents and state parks. Everyone knows > everyone. The clients are safe and reliable. These sites range > from places that people paid just tens of thousands of dollars > decades ago all the way up to many-multi-million dollar strips > of sand where very wealthy people like to look out over Naples > beach a couple times of year from their off-grid mansions. > It's pretty interesting. > > I "get" why people who only take friends out a few times a > year on a fishing expedition want a band-aid approach. There > is no reason to throw $100K at a situation like this. In this > case, I feel I can get creative to meet the very limited 12V > and 120V needs while providing a reliable and long-lasting > solution for around $25K and pocket enough money that I want > to answer their call in the future. Right now they are getting > by with 4 x 100W Solarland modules with a 9.6kWh battery bank > and a Honda EU2000. I'm certain they will be blown away with > the performance of whatever I propose, and happy that it is > installed in a safe and professional manner. > > The current distribution systems look solid, each protected by > a Square D QO breaker panel and professionally installed. The > power production and delivery system is a total kludge that I > feel I can fix without too much risk. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 2:19 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > via RE-wrenches wrote: > > How about just buy an RV? > Seriously the reason Jason I am Leary is because of the > experiences I have had with what I call Offgrid Squalor. > Just have to be careful especially these days of druggies, > people in vans with no windows, ex paramilitary that went > bad, > and you get the picture. > If you know the person that is the way to keep you and > your loved ones safe. Money does talk sometimes and the > lack can of it > can be a warning. > Also as mentioned, these types of situations, are what > gets my accountant telling me if you do not charge enough, > no one will listen to your advice. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines > don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2024-04-24 10:51 am, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches > wrote: > >> Jason, >>   Just using the converter works fine. They are >> considered a battery charger or a regulated power supply. >> I am currently running that way now with the battery >> cables going nowhere.  I was thinking of putting the >> battery back in the system just for triple redundancy >> when my inverter hits low battery cutoff voltage on a >> cold winter night and no fuel for the generator (or it >> won't start). >> My Iota DLS puts out a regulated 13.4 volts up to 30 amps. >> John >> >> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:25 AM Jason Szumlanski via >> RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Ah ha! I didn't consider using a small 12V battery >> with a charger. I was thinking of just using a 120V >> -> 12V converter to handle the DC loads. Is the 12V >> battery really necessary, or can I just power the DC >> loads directly with a converter? If I just have >> lights and fans on the DC system, the load should be >> pretty minimal. >> I could use a separate 12V battery, but I would like >> to eliminate that cost and complexity if possible. >> And yeah, I am not considering this a money making >> opportunity. It's really just a challenge to ward off >> boredom from the daily grind. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:01 AM John Blittersdorf via >> RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Jason, >>   I have a customer with the same situation >> except he already has a 12 V VFX inverter,  He >> has a sunfrost fridge and other small loads with >> a very fancy custom control board >> originally set up to handle AC and DC systems.  >> We are adding a lot more solar and I was >> considering a dual battery system but the owner >> didn't like that idea.  We are going with and >> Iota 12v power supply (i use one at my house for >> my sunfrost) to power up all his DC loads and >> will be adding a large 48 V battery bank and over >> 4Kw of solar using a VFXR3648 directly in place >> of the 12V inverter. He complained that the >> existing inverter would not handle all his >> current AC loads very well. My own house is fully >> wired for 12VDC as well as AC (lots of #10 copper >> not being used) and I have been considering >> getting a small LFP 12V battery to put back on by >> DC System. Then use the Iota as a secondary >> charging method with some of my large stash of >> older modules hooked up for 12V direct with C40 >> charge controller to recreate my original system >> just for kicks. I'm only using DC for my Sunfrost >> and one "emergency light" in the livingroom right >> now.  For your customer, a small LFP 12v battery >> (approximately $500 or less) to replace his old >> battery bankm and more larger ones for the new AC >> side with 48V inverter fed by his generator or >> through an Iota 48 V charger ifusing a smaller >> non charging inverter. Unlike Dave, I like these >> challenges. Maybe thats why I never seem to make >> money.!! >> John Blittersdorf >> offgridvermont.com >> >> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 7:22 AM Jason Szumlanski >> via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> Fortunately, the owner is pretty handy and is >> willing to live with any negative >> consequences. That said, I want to offer him >> something as simple and bulletproof as >> possible. I am walking into this with eyes >> wide open, for sure. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar >> Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor >> EC13013208 >> >> On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:47 PM Dave Angelini >> Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> Not being helpful but I walk away from >> these. It will come back to you. >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where >> powerlines don't" >> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >> >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060* >> >> >> On 2024-04-23 2:40 pm, Jason Szumlanski >> via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> I have an off-grid client who is >> working on replacing old equipment at >> a cabin. He has a lot of 12 volt >> distribution in the house for >> lighting, fans, and a 12 volt >> refrigerator. He also has 120 volt AC >> loads that run through a separate >> distribution panel where the only >> source is a 2000 Watt Honda >> generator. There is no inverter >> present. The batteries are charged >> through a Trace C40. >> He currently has a few ancient solar >> panels and a struggling Bank of AGM >> batteries. It's time for an upgrade. >> I can easily supply enough PV power >> for what he needs. He currently has a >> 9 kilowatt hour battery capacity that >> he was happy with when the batteries >> operated optimally. Nonetheless, I >> would probably future-proof him with >> a 10 to 15 kilowatt hour LiPo to >> double or triple his usable capacity. >> For convenience, obviously it would >> be nice to have an inverter to >> eliminate or reduce the generator >> requirement. But he seems committed >> to keeping his 12 volt distribution >> because it would be costly to replace >> fixtures. I think he would consider >> replacing the 12 volt refrigerator if >> he has an inverter. >> He definitely wants LiPo batteries. >> I don't like the idea of 12 volt >> direct from a battery plus connecting >> an inverter to that same battery. It >> is going to be hard to measure and >> monitor things. >> I am thinking about using a 48 volt >> battery with a single phase 120 volt >> inverter, getting him to change to a >> 120 volt refrigerator, and using a DC >> converter to give him somewhere in >> the range of 100 amps at 12 volts for >> his existing DC lighting and fan >> loads. Is this a bad idea? Should I >> stick with a 12 volt battery system? >> He does have a tiny 12 volt pressure >> pump which might be an issue for the >> converter. I'm not sure. I am a bit >> worried about the efficiency loss and >> capacity of DC converters and not >> sure how to size it. >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: >> http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: >> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & >> settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for >> searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: >> http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: >> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for >> searching. 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When one >> doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one >> doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one > doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't > work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric Inc > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > CSLB 1116835 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Apr 25 13:49:52 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2024 11:49:52 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Pro Firmware 2.04 melting devices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That sounds like a generator problem.  I've seen many gen sets put out a horrible waveform under load, when battery charging. The waveform, (if you have an O-scope) usually has a spike on the front of the wave, and then the wave flattens significantly after.  The peak should be 169 v on a 120 vac RMS sinewave.  I've seen it as low as 135v on crappy generators that are over loaded.   THD is a great thing to check, but also check your peak voltage, if you have a quick capture feature on your meter. It also could be related to altitude, gen sets can perform badly when they can't get enough air.   You didn't mention gen set model, or whether the frequency was a solid 60 hz.  I've seen bad things happen when the frequency got out of spec too.  I'm guessing a bad voltage regulator on the gen set. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 4/25/2024 11:24 AM, Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > Curious if anyone else has seen this issue. > New XW Pro off-grid system installed Dec 2023. Pretty standard config > for us, XW Pro, 5 kW PV, 50 kWh UnigyII battery, 8 kW high quality > diesel generator. This system ran fine all winter long – powering > customer’s big RV they were living in while the house is built, Shop, > computer controlled outdoor wood boiler, domestic loads + 3 person > construction crew. Gen ran daily on auto start as we don’t get much > sun Dec – Feb. No issues reported. > Couple weeks back I did a new system check up. All performing well, > happy client. Part of that service I upgraded the XW firmware from > 1.09 to 2.04, and insight from 1.16 to 1.18. Gave the system a quick > check, ran gen. Lots of sun now, batteries full so didn’t do a long > generator test. Yes I set the region codes for off-grid. > A week later, while I was out of town and it was not so sunny so gen > running, client and their electrician called me in a panic. Two smoke > detectors had literally melted, as well as several dimmable LED > fixtures all failed. Electrician replaced the burned up devices, only > to have the same thing repeat a few days later. Talking with them it > was only when the generator was running there were issues. Told them > to lock out gen and I will get there when I can. > Once back I attended site, fired up gen, and could hear the inverter > sounding terrible during gen charging. Lights flickering bad, and I > personally verified the smoke detectors beeping and getting warm and > the house smelled like burned plastic. I hooked up my power quality > analyser and could see the THD gradually building to over 36%. Gen > voltage was at 125/250V a bit high, so adjusted that, but no change. > By reducing the charge rate on the XW Pro to 50% was able to get the > THD down around 12% and less light flicker. But it’s still too high. > Image attached shows THD with gen on original programing, then at > reduced charge rate. > Have now gone from a happy client to a pissed off client threatening > legal action for endangering their lives & a bill from the > electrician. Ugh. Having a hard time explaining this to the client why > a system previously working fine went sideways so badly. Old guy > blames the “darned computer stuff” and he’s not wrong with that opinion. > At another site, similar config but larger system with dual XW’s that > I upgraded to 2.04 firmware remotely few days ago and now the two > inverters are literally fighting each other under generator charge – > one load building to +6 kW and one (minus)6 kW. > Sure makes me reluctant to upgrade firmware on systems that are > working fine. > Any suggestions? > Kevin > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From windydankoff at mac.com Thu Apr 25 14:05:06 2024 From: windydankoff at mac.com (Windy Dankoff) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2024 12:05:06 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar pumping stormwater In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <697C7B5F-B398-415B-B557-BCC7C5D983B7@mac.com> Dear Mac, For a non-battery, PV-direct system, you will need to shop for an appropriate AC pump, and an AC pump controller, AKA "pump inverter". 3-phase is ideal for this because it's better for this variable-speed application. However, this power level, you probably will have to settle for 1-ph. There is only one controller I know that can handle 1-ph motors. But there are some limitations, so I suggest that you call the company: http://www.enfusionenergy.com/ Home enfusionenergy.com Ask for Nikola. He is very familiar with applications like this, and very helpful (and funny). Yours! Windy > > From: Mac Lewis > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar pumping stormwater > Date: April 25, 2024 at 7:03:10 AM MDT > To: RE-wrenches > > > > Hello Wrenches, > > Im looking for recommendations on solar pumps for a stormwater overflow application. The water will be cruddy so the pump would need to be able to tolerate that, although we will do our best to mitigate that. I'd like to be able to pump about 20,000 gallons per day or so at a head of 20'. My preference is no batteries but we could design in batteries. > > Any input is appreciated! > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: dotted-bg.png Type: image/png Size: 16159 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Thu Apr 25 14:08:41 2024 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2024 11:08:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system In-Reply-To: References: <069aafe04cd3f594bcb40914cdd38dfd@sti.net> Message-ID: Ray, I'm in the same situation. My strategic plan was to work into early old age ( in 20-25 years). But now, I spend half of my time troubleshooting and replacing equipment on my dime. Between that, competing with Grid-Tied guys, and having to justify my mark-up to clients comparing my pricing to NAZ's, It's just not worth it anymore. Where I'm at, there's little commercial or industrial electrical work to be had so it's likely my future is pulling rope through attics and crawl spaces. Yes, the Magnum equipment produced for the first five or so years was extremely reliable. Same for the Outback, maybe less so. I was thinking that the only repairs I had to make on SWs was replacing transfer relays and that was only a few out of countless systems. I think it was Bob-O who many years ago introduced me to the saying "it's a race to the bottom" : ) I tried EG4's in my own system when at 15 years my Rolls reached the end. I also tried them in a customers system. Absolute nightmare. I don't know which is worse, the batteries or Signature Solar. On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 10:36 AM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Michael; > > I don't think its 12v, I have old Trace 48 v systems still humming along > 24 years later, too. Some of it, is the customers. The old school off grid > folks knew how to conserve energy, watch the sun, and were not going to > call unless they couldn't fix it themselves. > > Also, the equipment was built much better back then for sure, I have a new > Magnum install that is just a disaster, voltage dips below 100 vac, every > time any larger load goes on (well pump, garbage disposal, fridge, coffee > maker) and I've replaced 3 BMK battery monitors under warranty so far. > Apparently you can NOT disconnect or connect the BMK with its built in 4 > pin *connector*, or it will smoke the unit. That is a new problem, they > used to be robust. I have many older Magnum systems that are great. > Magnum quality has taken a huge dive since being acquired by Sensata. > > If it wasn't for Trace, old Outback, and old Magnum stuff being reliable, > I would have gone out of business decades ago. Now it looks like I need to > find a new line of work, just a few years before retirement, because > manufacturers no longer prioritize reliability. Meanwhile Li+ is what new > customers expect, yet its still not ready for prime time, either. I have > an installer buddy that is having all sorts of trouble with an EG4 battery > setup, and the installation isn't even complete. He's already had to dark > start them several times, and now they won't even stay operational for more > than a few minutes. The cheapo BMS lears its ugly head once again. All > we're doing lately is fixing stuff less than 5 years old. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > On 4/25/2024 9:52 AM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Here's a different take. Just food for thought and not necessarily a > suggestion. Those 1st or 2nd Gen 12V systems were/are for me the most > reliable and trouble free systems. I'd install one and never hear back from > my customer for a decade or more. I regularly see "rats nest" wired > 12V/Trace DR/UX hybrid systems with Arco panels that still hum along. When > I get asked to update these systems, assuming that the power needs haven't > grown much, I usually keep the voltages the same (12VDC and 120VAC), > sanitize the wiring, add OCPDs, Victron smart shunt/Battery monitor, > Victron CC and inverter, and Lead Acids or AGM's. Good for another 20 years > with batteries being replaced in 10. With only a few exceptions, every > ancient system that I have tried to bring into the 21st century for my low > needs off-grid pioneers has been a flop. Inverters and Charge controllers > that take a dump after a few years, TMI with new monitor/controllers, and > lots of headaches with Lithium. > > Now, if we're talking about a client who has just purchased a property > with a legacy system and wants to live like they are still in the City, > that's an entirely different conversation. > > My own system for my full time off-grid home is 12V/120V, and I live Fat! > Tiny array (700Ws 4 hours a day), tiny hydro (150Ws 7 months a year) 2 > Rolls 21 CS-21Ps, Honda eu2000i, 12VDC Sunfrost, 12VDC device charging > station, 12VDC UV water disinfection (gravity spring water) on a 12VDC > loadcenter (SQD QO), Morningstar 300W Suresine powers an AC loadcenter for > lighting and most plugs) Magnum 2812 powers a loadcenter that feeds > bathroom and kitchen plugs. It stays off to reduce idle consumption). I've > never had a problem with this system in 15 years. If I'm not around, or my > financials are weak, replacing a piece of equipment won't hurt myself or my > wife. If need be, I can charge from a vehicle or farm equipment. And I > could pull a battery from something here on the ranch in a pinch. The > wiring/installation is clear and I made a manual so that any decent > electrician could troubleshoot and make repairs should Todd Cory not be > around :) > > Again, I say all this to provoke a thought experiment. I've installed and > replaced hundreds upon hundreds of off-grid systems from pinky dinky to > millions and the ones that have worked the best were/are either AC Hydro, > old-school (pre-Xantrex) or Schneider/Discover and the latter have had > their share of issues. > > On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 7:34 AM Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I had a lot of trouble keeping QO breakers functional on a 12VDC >> distribution system. I'd have to move them around every week or so to keep >> a good contact on the plug in contacts. They seem to work fine on a 24VDC >> system. I went to using MNPV or MNDC breakers instead in PV combiner or >> other MidNite boxes. QOU breakers are fine, but I don't know of any >> standard distribution box for them. >> >> Brad Bassett >> Application Engineer retired >> >> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 11:42 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi Dave, >>> >>> I appreciate the concern. It's not one of those situations. We have a >>> couple of barrier islands around here where people have set up what amounts >>> to little fish camps that are used infrequently. The islands are also home >>> to a few full-time/most-time residents and state parks. Everyone knows >>> everyone. The clients are safe and reliable. These sites range from places >>> that people paid just tens of thousands of dollars decades ago all the way >>> up to many-multi-million dollar strips of sand where very wealthy people >>> like to look out over Naples beach a couple times of year from their >>> off-grid mansions. It's pretty interesting. >>> >>> I "get" why people who only take friends out a few times a year on a >>> fishing expedition want a band-aid approach. There is no reason to throw >>> $100K at a situation like this. In this case, I feel I can get creative to >>> meet the very limited 12V and 120V needs while providing a reliable and >>> long-lasting solution for around $25K and pocket enough money that I want >>> to answer their call in the future. Right now they are getting by with 4 x >>> 100W Solarland modules with a 9.6kWh battery bank and a Honda EU2000. I'm >>> certain they will be blown away with the performance of whatever I propose, >>> and happy that it is installed in a safe and professional manner. >>> >>> The current distribution systems look solid, each protected by a Square >>> D QO breaker panel and professionally installed. The power production and >>> delivery system is a total kludge that I feel I can fix without too much >>> risk. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 2:19 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>>> How about just buy an RV? >>>> >>>> Seriously the reason Jason I am Leary is because of the experiences I >>>> have had with what I call Offgrid Squalor. >>>> >>>> Just have to be careful especially these days of druggies, people in >>>> vans with no windows, ex paramilitary that went bad, >>>> and you get the picture. >>>> >>>> If you know the person that is the way to keep you and your loved ones >>>> safe. Money does talk sometimes and the lack can of it >>>> can be a warning. >>>> >>>> Also as mentioned, these types of situations, are what gets my >>>> accountant telling me if you do not charge enough, >>>> no one will listen to your advice. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>> text 209 813 0060* >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2024-04-24 10:51 am, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> >>>> Jason, >>>> Just using the converter works fine. They are considered a battery >>>> charger or a regulated power supply. I am currently running that way now >>>> with the battery cables going nowhere. I was thinking of putting the >>>> battery back in the system just for triple redundancy when my inverter hits >>>> low battery cutoff voltage on a cold winter night and no fuel for the >>>> generator (or it won't start). >>>> My Iota DLS puts out a regulated 13.4 volts up to 30 amps. >>>> >>>> John >>>> >>>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:25 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Ah ha! I didn't consider using a small 12V battery with a charger. I >>>> was thinking of just using a 120V -> 12V converter to handle the DC loads. >>>> Is the 12V battery really necessary, or can I just power the DC loads >>>> directly with a converter? If I just have lights and fans on the DC system, >>>> the load should be pretty minimal. >>>> >>>> I could use a separate 12V battery, but I would like to eliminate that >>>> cost and complexity if possible. >>>> >>>> >>>> And yeah, I am not considering this a money making opportunity. It's >>>> really just a challenge to ward off boredom from the daily grind. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>> >>>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:01 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Jason, >>>> I have a customer with the same situation except he already has a 12 >>>> V VFX inverter, He has a sunfrost fridge and other small loads with a very >>>> fancy custom control board >>>> originally set up to handle AC and DC systems. We are adding a lot >>>> more solar and I was considering a dual battery system but the owner didn't >>>> like that idea. We are going with and Iota 12v power supply (i use one at >>>> my house for my sunfrost) to power up all his DC loads and will be adding a >>>> large 48 V battery bank and over 4Kw of solar using a VFXR3648 directly in >>>> place of the 12V inverter. He complained that the existing inverter would >>>> not handle all his current AC loads very well. My own house is fully wired >>>> for 12VDC as well as AC (lots of #10 copper not being used) and I have been >>>> considering getting a small LFP 12V battery to put back on by DC System. >>>> Then use the Iota as a secondary charging method with some of my large >>>> stash of older modules hooked up for 12V direct with C40 charge controller >>>> to recreate my original system just for kicks. I'm only using DC for my >>>> Sunfrost and one "emergency light" in the livingroom right now. For your >>>> customer, a small LFP 12v battery (approximately $500 or less) to replace >>>> his old battery bankm and more larger ones for the new AC side with 48V >>>> inverter fed by his generator or through an Iota 48 V charger ifusing a >>>> smaller non charging inverter. Unlike Dave, I like these challenges. Maybe >>>> thats why I never seem to make money.!! >>>> >>>> John Blittersdorf >>>> offgridvermont.com >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 7:22 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Fortunately, the owner is pretty handy and is willing to live with any >>>> negative consequences. That said, I want to offer him something as simple >>>> and bulletproof as possible. I am walking into this with eyes wide open, >>>> for sure. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>> >>>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:47 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >>>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> >>>> Not being helpful but I walk away from these. It will come back to you. >>>> >>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>> text 209 813 0060* >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2024-04-23 2:40 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> >>>> I have an off-grid client who is working on replacing old equipment at >>>> a cabin. He has a lot of 12 volt distribution in the house for lighting, >>>> fans, and a 12 volt refrigerator. He also has 120 volt AC loads that run >>>> through a separate distribution panel where the only source is a 2000 Watt >>>> Honda generator. There is no inverter present. The batteries are charged >>>> through a Trace C40. >>>> >>>> He currently has a few ancient solar panels and a struggling Bank of >>>> AGM batteries. It's time for an upgrade. I can easily supply enough PV >>>> power for what he needs. He currently has a 9 kilowatt hour battery >>>> capacity that he was happy with when the batteries operated optimally. >>>> Nonetheless, I would probably future-proof him with a 10 to 15 kilowatt >>>> hour LiPo to double or triple his usable capacity. >>>> >>>> For convenience, obviously it would be nice to have an inverter to >>>> eliminate or reduce the generator requirement. But he seems committed to >>>> keeping his 12 volt distribution because it would be costly to replace >>>> fixtures. I think he would consider replacing the 12 volt refrigerator if >>>> he has an inverter. >>>> >>>> He definitely wants LiPo batteries. >>>> >>>> I don't like the idea of 12 volt direct from a battery plus connecting >>>> an inverter to that same battery. It is going to be hard to measure and >>>> monitor things. >>>> >>>> I am thinking about using a 48 volt battery with a single phase 120 >>>> volt inverter, getting him to change to a 120 volt refrigerator, and using >>>> a DC converter to give him somewhere in the range of 100 amps at 12 volts >>>> for his existing DC lighting and fan loads. Is this a bad idea? Should I >>>> stick with a 12 volt battery system? He does have a tiny 12 volt pressure >>>> pump which might be an issue for the converter. I'm not sure. I am a bit >>>> worried about the efficiency loss and capacity of DC converters and not >>>> sure how to size it. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric Inc > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > CSLB 1116835 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Thu Apr 25 14:18:31 2024 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2024 11:18:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Pro Firmware 2.04 melting devices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Go back to V1.11. I had the same thing happen with an XWPRO and a Central Maine Diesel with a DynaGen controller. Frequency and Peak to Peak was less than perfect and the inverter, IF it would qualify the power, sounded like a garbage disposal. Eric B at Schneider suggested reverting back to the old firmware and that did the trick. Like yours, my client is pissed and wants me to replace the inverter because he thinks it was compromised. He might be right. A colleague of mine ran into the same issue which was fixed with old firmware. BTW, no one in tech support, after many calls ever suggested using the old firmware. On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 10:51 AM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > That sounds like a generator problem. I've seen many gen sets put out a > horrible waveform under load, when battery charging. The waveform, (if you > have an O-scope) usually has a spike on the front of the wave, and then the > wave flattens significantly after. The peak should be 169 v on a 120 vac > RMS sinewave. I've seen it as low as 135v on crappy generators that are > over loaded. THD is a great thing to check, but also check your peak > voltage, if you have a quick capture feature on your meter. > > It also could be related to altitude, gen sets can perform badly when they > can't get enough air. You didn't mention gen set model, or whether the > frequency was a solid 60 hz. I've seen bad things happen when the > frequency got out of spec too. I'm guessing a bad voltage regulator on the > gen set. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > On 4/25/2024 11:24 AM, Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > > Curious if anyone else has seen this issue. > > New XW Pro off-grid system installed Dec 2023. Pretty standard config for > us, XW Pro, 5 kW PV, 50 kWh UnigyII battery, 8 kW high quality diesel > generator. This system ran fine all winter long – powering customer’s big > RV they were living in while the house is built, Shop, computer controlled > outdoor wood boiler, domestic loads + 3 person construction crew. Gen ran > daily on auto start as we don’t get much sun Dec – Feb. No issues reported. > > Couple weeks back I did a new system check up. All performing well, happy > client. Part of that service I upgraded the XW firmware from 1.09 to 2.04, > and insight from 1.16 to 1.18. Gave the system a quick check, ran gen. Lots > of sun now, batteries full so didn’t do a long generator test. Yes I set > the region codes for off-grid. > > A week later, while I was out of town and it was not so sunny so gen > running, client and their electrician called me in a panic. Two smoke > detectors had literally melted, as well as several dimmable LED fixtures > all failed. Electrician replaced the burned up devices, only to have the > same thing repeat a few days later. Talking with them it was only when the > generator was running there were issues. Told them to lock out gen and I > will get there when I can. > > Once back I attended site, fired up gen, and could hear the inverter > sounding terrible during gen charging. Lights flickering bad, and I > personally verified the smoke detectors beeping and getting warm and the > house smelled like burned plastic. I hooked up my power quality analyser > and could see the THD gradually building to over 36%. Gen voltage was at > 125/250V a bit high, so adjusted that, but no change. By reducing the > charge rate on the XW Pro to 50% was able to get the THD down around 12% > and less light flicker. But it’s still too high. Image attached shows THD > with gen on original programing, then at reduced charge rate. > > Have now gone from a happy client to a pissed off client threatening legal > action for endangering their lives & a bill from the electrician. Ugh. > Having a hard time explaining this to the client why a system previously > working fine went sideways so badly. Old guy blames the “darned computer > stuff” and he’s not wrong with that opinion. > > At another site, similar config but larger system with dual XW’s that I > upgraded to 2.04 firmware remotely few days ago and now the two inverters > are literally fighting each other under generator charge – one load > building to +6 kW and one (minus)6 kW. > > Sure makes me reluctant to upgrade firmware on systems that are working > fine. > > Any suggestions? > > Kevin > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Apr 25 14:19:49 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2024 11:19:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Pro Firmware 2.04 melting devices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Could be the Gen but... When you update an offgrid XWP that has been running fine, I would say did you follow the commissioning guide and set the grid code? This has to be done or you are rolling the dice. All other devices are fine for update. Many older XWP's did not have a grid code. When you update XWP, it will cause a mess. I leave XWP firmware offgrid alone unless there is a compelling reason in the release notes. It is in the FW release. Most all offgrid apps run fine with their fw no matter what any one (support at Schneider) tells you! https://solar.se.com/us/en/xw-pro-commissioning-guide/ If this is you Kevin, start from scratch with the guide. You can check if there is a grid code set. I have to go but I know I owe you an email. Busy Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-04-25 10:24 am, Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > Curious if anyone else has seen this issue. > > New XW Pro off-grid system installed Dec 2023. Pretty standard config > for us, XW Pro, 5 kW PV, 50 kWh UnigyII battery, 8 kW high quality > diesel generator. This system ran fine all winter long - powering > customer's big RV they were living in while the house is built, Shop, > computer controlled outdoor wood boiler, domestic loads + 3 person > construction crew. Gen ran daily on auto start as we don't get much sun > Dec - Feb. No issues reported. > > Couple weeks back I did a new system check up. All performing well, > happy client. Part of that service I upgraded the XW firmware from 1.09 > to 2.04, and insight from 1.16 to 1.18. Gave the system a quick check, > ran gen. Lots of sun now, batteries full so didn't do a long generator > test. Yes I set the region codes for off-grid. > > A week later, while I was out of town and it was not so sunny so gen > running, client and their electrician called me in a panic. Two smoke > detectors had literally melted, as well as several dimmable LED > fixtures all failed. Electrician replaced the burned up devices, only > to have the same thing repeat a few days later. Talking with them it > was only when the generator was running there were issues. Told them to > lock out gen and I will get there when I can. > > Once back I attended site, fired up gen, and could hear the inverter > sounding terrible during gen charging. Lights flickering bad, and I > personally verified the smoke detectors beeping and getting warm and > the house smelled like burned plastic. I hooked up my power quality > analyser and could see the THD gradually building to over 36%. Gen > voltage was at 125/250V a bit high, so adjusted that, but no change. By > reducing the charge rate on the XW Pro to 50% was able to get the THD > down around 12% and less light flicker. But it's still too high. Image > attached shows THD with gen on original programing, then at reduced > charge rate. > > Have now gone from a happy client to a pissed off client threatening > legal action for endangering their lives & a bill from the electrician. > Ugh. Having a hard time explaining this to the client why a system > previously working fine went sideways so badly. Old guy blames the > "darned computer stuff" and he's not wrong with that opinion. > > At another site, similar config but larger system with dual XW's that I > upgraded to 2.04 firmware remotely few days ago and now the two > inverters are literally fighting each other under generator charge - > one load building to +6 kW and one (minus)6 kW. > > Sure makes me reluctant to upgrade firmware on systems that are working > fine. > > Any suggestions? > > Kevin > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20240425_095741.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 724429 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Apr 25 14:26:01 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2024 11:26:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Pro Firmware 2.04 melting devices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8b712ce41ae78507fa5d60023df83d4f@sti.net> Good advice Michael! I had one that the grid code got set by FW and reverting did not help. Had to start fresh. I certainly would try the revert as it is so much easier. There just is too much grid firmware being changed and it does not need to be done offgrid. I beg people and Schneider, like Eric to just have an offgrid FW as a choice Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-04-25 11:18 am, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Go back to V1.11. I had the same thing happen with an XWPRO and a > Central Maine Diesel with a DynaGen controller. Frequency and Peak to > Peak was less than perfect and the inverter, IF it would qualify the > power, sounded like a garbage disposal. Eric B at Schneider suggested > reverting back to the old firmware and that did the trick. Like yours, > my client is pissed and wants me to replace the inverter because he > thinks it was compromised. He might be right. A colleague of mine ran > into the same issue which was fixed with old firmware. > > BTW, no one in tech support, after many calls ever suggested using the > old firmware. > > On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 10:51 AM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > That sounds like a generator problem. I've seen many gen sets put out > a horrible waveform under load, when battery charging. The waveform, > (if you have an O-scope) usually has a spike on the front of the wave, > and then the wave flattens significantly after. The peak should be 169 > v on a 120 vac RMS sinewave. I've seen it as low as 135v on crappy > generators that are over loaded. THD is a great thing to check, but > also check your peak voltage, if you have a quick capture feature on > your meter. > > It also could be related to altitude, gen sets can perform badly when > they can't get enough air. You didn't mention gen set model, or > whether the frequency was a solid 60 hz. I've seen bad things happen > when the frequency got out of spec too. I'm guessing a bad voltage > regulator on the gen set. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > On 4/25/2024 11:24 AM, Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > Curious if anyone else has seen this issue. > > New XW Pro off-grid system installed Dec 2023. Pretty standard config > for us, XW Pro, 5 kW PV, 50 kWh UnigyII battery, 8 kW high quality > diesel generator. This system ran fine all winter long - powering > customer's big RV they were living in while the house is built, Shop, > computer controlled outdoor wood boiler, domestic loads + 3 person > construction crew. Gen ran daily on auto start as we don't get much sun > Dec - Feb. No issues reported. > > Couple weeks back I did a new system check up. All performing well, > happy client. Part of that service I upgraded the XW firmware from 1.09 > to 2.04, and insight from 1.16 to 1.18. Gave the system a quick check, > ran gen. Lots of sun now, batteries full so didn't do a long generator > test. Yes I set the region codes for off-grid. > > A week later, while I was out of town and it was not so sunny so gen > running, client and their electrician called me in a panic. Two smoke > detectors had literally melted, as well as several dimmable LED > fixtures all failed. Electrician replaced the burned up devices, only > to have the same thing repeat a few days later. Talking with them it > was only when the generator was running there were issues. Told them to > lock out gen and I will get there when I can. > > Once back I attended site, fired up gen, and could hear the inverter > sounding terrible during gen charging. Lights flickering bad, and I > personally verified the smoke detectors beeping and getting warm and > the house smelled like burned plastic. I hooked up my power quality > analyser and could see the THD gradually building to over 36%. Gen > voltage was at 125/250V a bit high, so adjusted that, but no change. By > reducing the charge rate on the XW Pro to 50% was able to get the THD > down around 12% and less light flicker. But it's still too high. Image > attached shows THD with gen on original programing, then at reduced > charge rate. > > Have now gone from a happy client to a pissed off client threatening > legal action for endangering their lives & a bill from the electrician. > Ugh. Having a hard time explaining this to the client why a system > previously working fine went sideways so badly. Old guy blames the > "darned computer stuff" and he's not wrong with that opinion. > > At another site, similar config but larger system with dual XW's that I > upgraded to 2.04 firmware remotely few days ago and now the two > inverters are literally fighting each other under generator charge - > one load building to +6 kW and one (minus)6 kW. > > Sure makes me reluctant to upgrade firmware on systems that are working > fine. > > Any suggestions? > > Kevin > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Thu Apr 25 14:29:35 2024 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2024 14:29:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Pro Firmware 2.04 melting devices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Kevin, Let me chime in here. Last year I experienced something nearly identical to what you are describing. 3 ea. XW pros in an off-grid application. Things were working fine, but wanted to upgrade firmware for a comms issue I was having with closed loop BMS and Insight. After the 2.04 upgrade, when the generator would charge the system, voltage would slowly creep up and after about 20 or so minutes, voltage would hit around 250 VAC with a terrible high pitched grinding noise coming from the inverters. This issue burned 3 of the homeowners UPS and several LED fixtures. I was 99% sure this was a generator issue. After weeks of tech support calls, a new voltage regulator and multiple return service visits… and eventually one brand new generator… I had to come back to the homeowner with my tail between my legs and let them know that it wasn’t generator related. Even after reverting back to the old firmware, it seems as though the software eventually affected the hardware. Long story short, homeowner was done with dealing with Schneider and we ended up swapping the Conext gear for 2ea. Sol-Ark 15ks and the system has been issue free for almost a year. Both generator run like a top. Sort of embarrassing to re-read this, but if I can help someone avoid the headache I went through, it’s worth it. One easy test method is to deenergize your entire system, turn off batteries and manually bypass your inverters. Let the generator power the loads directly and keep a close eye on your generator frequency, voltage and THD. In my case, I found that the generator behaved well in bypass and terribly when the inverters were present. Good luck on this one! Chris Sparadeo On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 1:51 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > That sounds like a generator problem. I've seen many gen sets put out a > horrible waveform under load, when battery charging. The waveform, (if you > have an O-scope) usually has a spike on the front of the wave, and then the > wave flattens significantly after. The peak should be 169 v on a 120 vac > RMS sinewave. I've seen it as low as 135v on crappy generators that are > over loaded. THD is a great thing to check, but also check your peak > voltage, if you have a quick capture feature on your meter. > > It also could be related to altitude, gen sets can perform badly when they > can't get enough air. You didn't mention gen set model, or whether the > frequency was a solid 60 hz. I've seen bad things happen when the > frequency got out of spec too. I'm guessing a bad voltage regulator on the > gen set. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > On 4/25/2024 11:24 AM, Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > > Curious if anyone else has seen this issue. > > New XW Pro off-grid system installed Dec 2023. Pretty standard config for > us, XW Pro, 5 kW PV, 50 kWh UnigyII battery, 8 kW high quality diesel > generator. This system ran fine all winter long – powering customer’s big > RV they were living in while the house is built, Shop, computer controlled > outdoor wood boiler, domestic loads + 3 person construction crew. Gen ran > daily on auto start as we don’t get much sun Dec – Feb. No issues reported. > > Couple weeks back I did a new system check up. All performing well, happy > client. Part of that service I upgraded the XW firmware from 1.09 to 2.04, > and insight from 1.16 to 1.18. Gave the system a quick check, ran gen. Lots > of sun now, batteries full so didn’t do a long generator test. Yes I set > the region codes for off-grid. > > A week later, while I was out of town and it was not so sunny so gen > running, client and their electrician called me in a panic. Two smoke > detectors had literally melted, as well as several dimmable LED fixtures > all failed. Electrician replaced the burned up devices, only to have the > same thing repeat a few days later. Talking with them it was only when the > generator was running there were issues. Told them to lock out gen and I > will get there when I can. > > Once back I attended site, fired up gen, and could hear the inverter > sounding terrible during gen charging. Lights flickering bad, and I > personally verified the smoke detectors beeping and getting warm and the > house smelled like burned plastic. I hooked up my power quality analyser > and could see the THD gradually building to over 36%. Gen voltage was at > 125/250V a bit high, so adjusted that, but no change. By reducing the > charge rate on the XW Pro to 50% was able to get the THD down around 12% > and less light flicker. But it’s still too high. Image attached shows THD > with gen on original programing, then at reduced charge rate. > > Have now gone from a happy client to a pissed off client threatening legal > action for endangering their lives & a bill from the electrician. Ugh. > Having a hard time explaining this to the client why a system previously > working fine went sideways so badly. Old guy blames the “darned computer > stuff” and he’s not wrong with that opinion. > > At another site, similar config but larger system with dual XW’s that I > upgraded to 2.04 firmware remotely few days ago and now the two inverters > are literally fighting each other under generator charge – one load > building to +6 kW and one (minus)6 kW. > > Sure makes me reluctant to upgrade firmware on systems that are working > fine. > > Any suggestions? > > Kevin > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Thu Apr 25 14:40:46 2024 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2024 18:40:46 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Pro Firmware 2.04 melting devices In-Reply-To: <8b712ce41ae78507fa5d60023df83d4f@sti.net> References: <8b712ce41ae78507fa5d60023df83d4f@sti.net> Message-ID: Yes, PLEASE! Provide us with off-grid firmware for XW Pros! The reason I was updating firmware was to enable AC1 gen charging, for clients with dual generators. The Insight FW 1.18 clearly said it supported that feature, but that’s not true. Schneider now tells that XW FW 2.07 will enable AC1 gen charging. So I thought let’s get prepared for that FW whenever it comes out. But I am starting to seriously consider if it’s time to abandon Schneider and look to Sol Ark or such. Kevin From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches Sent: April-25-24 11:26 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] XW Pro Firmware 2.04 melting devices Good advice Michael! I had one that the grid code got set by FW and reverting did not help. Had to start fresh. I certainly would try the revert as it is so much easier. There just is too much grid firmware being changed and it does not need to be done offgrid. I beg people and Schneider, like Eric to just have an offgrid FW as a choice Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" https://offgridsolar1.com/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-04-25 11:18 am, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: Go back to V1.11. I had the same thing happen with an XWPRO and a Central Maine Diesel with a DynaGen controller. Frequency and Peak to Peak was less than perfect and the inverter, IF it would qualify the power, sounded like a garbage disposal. Eric B at Schneider suggested reverting back to the old firmware and that did the trick. Like yours, my client is pissed and wants me to replace the inverter because he thinks it was compromised. He might be right. A colleague of mine ran into the same issue which was fixed with old firmware. BTW, no one in tech support, after many calls ever suggested using the old firmware. On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 10:51 AM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > wrote: That sounds like a generator problem. I've seen many gen sets put out a horrible waveform under load, when battery charging. The waveform, (if you have an O-scope) usually has a spike on the front of the wave, and then the wave flattens significantly after. The peak should be 169 v on a 120 vac RMS sinewave. I've seen it as low as 135v on crappy generators that are over loaded. THD is a great thing to check, but also check your peak voltage, if you have a quick capture feature on your meter. It also could be related to altitude, gen sets can perform badly when they can't get enough air. You didn't mention gen set model, or whether the frequency was a solid 60 hz. I've seen bad things happen when the frequency got out of spec too. I'm guessing a bad voltage regulator on the gen set. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 4/25/2024 11:24 AM, Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches wrote: Hi Wrenches, Curious if anyone else has seen this issue. New XW Pro off-grid system installed Dec 2023. Pretty standard config for us, XW Pro, 5 kW PV, 50 kWh UnigyII battery, 8 kW high quality diesel generator. This system ran fine all winter long – powering customer's big RV they were living in while the house is built, Shop, computer controlled outdoor wood boiler, domestic loads + 3 person construction crew. Gen ran daily on auto start as we don't get much sun Dec – Feb. No issues reported. Couple weeks back I did a new system check up. All performing well, happy client. Part of that service I upgraded the XW firmware from 1.09 to 2.04, and insight from 1.16 to 1.18. Gave the system a quick check, ran gen. Lots of sun now, batteries full so didn't do a long generator test. Yes I set the region codes for off-grid. A week later, while I was out of town and it was not so sunny so gen running, client and their electrician called me in a panic. Two smoke detectors had literally melted, as well as several dimmable LED fixtures all failed. Electrician replaced the burned up devices, only to have the same thing repeat a few days later. Talking with them it was only when the generator was running there were issues. Told them to lock out gen and I will get there when I can. Once back I attended site, fired up gen, and could hear the inverter sounding terrible during gen charging. Lights flickering bad, and I personally verified the smoke detectors beeping and getting warm and the house smelled like burned plastic. I hooked up my power quality analyser and could see the THD gradually building to over 36%. Gen voltage was at 125/250V a bit high, so adjusted that, but no change. By reducing the charge rate on the XW Pro to 50% was able to get the THD down around 12% and less light flicker. But it's still too high. Image attached shows THD with gen on original programing, then at reduced charge rate. Have now gone from a happy client to a pissed off client threatening legal action for endangering their lives & a bill from the electrician. Ugh. Having a hard time explaining this to the client why a system previously working fine went sideways so badly. Old guy blames the "darned computer stuff" and he's not wrong with that opinion. At another site, similar config but larger system with dual XW's that I upgraded to 2.04 firmware remotely few days ago and now the two inverters are literally fighting each other under generator charge – one load building to +6 kW and one (minus)6 kW. Sure makes me reluctant to upgrade firmware on systems that are working fine. Any suggestions? Kevin _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Thu Apr 25 14:44:06 2024 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2024 18:44:06 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Pro Firmware 2.04 melting devices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Chris, Thanks. Ugh it’s even more irritating to learn this is obviously a known issue. Yes, I tested gen in bypass mode system off and it is all within spec, forgot to mention that. Kevin From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches Sent: April-25-24 11:30 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Chris Sparadeo Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] XW Pro Firmware 2.04 melting devices Hi Kevin, Let me chime in here. Last year I experienced something nearly identical to what you are describing. 3 ea. XW pros in an off-grid application. Things were working fine, but wanted to upgrade firmware for a comms issue I was having with closed loop BMS and Insight. After the 2.04 upgrade, when the generator would charge the system, voltage would slowly creep up and after about 20 or so minutes, voltage would hit around 250 VAC with a terrible high pitched grinding noise coming from the inverters. This issue burned 3 of the homeowners UPS and several LED fixtures. I was 99% sure this was a generator issue. After weeks of tech support calls, a new voltage regulator and multiple return service visits… and eventually one brand new generator… I had to come back to the homeowner with my tail between my legs and let them know that it wasn’t generator related. Even after reverting back to the old firmware, it seems as though the software eventually affected the hardware. Long story short, homeowner was done with dealing with Schneider and we ended up swapping the Conext gear for 2ea. Sol-Ark 15ks and the system has been issue free for almost a year. Both generator run like a top. Sort of embarrassing to re-read this, but if I can help someone avoid the headache I went through, it’s worth it. One easy test method is to deenergize your entire system, turn off batteries and manually bypass your inverters. Let the generator power the loads directly and keep a close eye on your generator frequency, voltage and THD. In my case, I found that the generator behaved well in bypass and terribly when the inverters were present. Good luck on this one! Chris Sparadeo On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 1:51 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > wrote: That sounds like a generator problem. I've seen many gen sets put out a horrible waveform under load, when battery charging. The waveform, (if you have an O-scope) usually has a spike on the front of the wave, and then the wave flattens significantly after. The peak should be 169 v on a 120 vac RMS sinewave. I've seen it as low as 135v on crappy generators that are over loaded. THD is a great thing to check, but also check your peak voltage, if you have a quick capture feature on your meter. It also could be related to altitude, gen sets can perform badly when they can't get enough air. You didn't mention gen set model, or whether the frequency was a solid 60 hz. I've seen bad things happen when the frequency got out of spec too. I'm guessing a bad voltage regulator on the gen set. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 4/25/2024 11:24 AM, Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches wrote: Hi Wrenches, Curious if anyone else has seen this issue. New XW Pro off-grid system installed Dec 2023. Pretty standard config for us, XW Pro, 5 kW PV, 50 kWh UnigyII battery, 8 kW high quality diesel generator. This system ran fine all winter long – powering customer’s big RV they were living in while the house is built, Shop, computer controlled outdoor wood boiler, domestic loads + 3 person construction crew. Gen ran daily on auto start as we don’t get much sun Dec – Feb. No issues reported. Couple weeks back I did a new system check up. All performing well, happy client. Part of that service I upgraded the XW firmware from 1.09 to 2.04, and insight from 1.16 to 1.18. Gave the system a quick check, ran gen. Lots of sun now, batteries full so didn’t do a long generator test. Yes I set the region codes for off-grid. A week later, while I was out of town and it was not so sunny so gen running, client and their electrician called me in a panic. Two smoke detectors had literally melted, as well as several dimmable LED fixtures all failed. Electrician replaced the burned up devices, only to have the same thing repeat a few days later. Talking with them it was only when the generator was running there were issues. Told them to lock out gen and I will get there when I can. Once back I attended site, fired up gen, and could hear the inverter sounding terrible during gen charging. Lights flickering bad, and I personally verified the smoke detectors beeping and getting warm and the house smelled like burned plastic. I hooked up my power quality analyser and could see the THD gradually building to over 36%. Gen voltage was at 125/250V a bit high, so adjusted that, but no change. By reducing the charge rate on the XW Pro to 50% was able to get the THD down around 12% and less light flicker. But it’s still too high. Image attached shows THD with gen on original programing, then at reduced charge rate. Have now gone from a happy client to a pissed off client threatening legal action for endangering their lives & a bill from the electrician. Ugh. Having a hard time explaining this to the client why a system previously working fine went sideways so badly. Old guy blames the “darned computer stuff” and he’s not wrong with that opinion. At another site, similar config but larger system with dual XW’s that I upgraded to 2.04 firmware remotely few days ago and now the two inverters are literally fighting each other under generator charge – one load building to +6 kW and one (minus)6 kW. Sure makes me reluctant to upgrade firmware on systems that are working fine. Any suggestions? Kevin _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Apr 25 14:57:22 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2024 11:57:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Pro Firmware 2.04 melting devices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9b58e81b61efc5e3505dd97008d4e5b7@sti.net> To be fare, Schneider does tell you to follow the commissioning guide. It should be in the firmware though and should be a warning. It is only an issue with older XWP BTW. Let us know what you end up doing Kevin please. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-04-25 11:44 am, Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Chris, > > Thanks. Ugh it's even more irritating to learn this is obviously a > known issue. Yes, I tested gen in bypass mode system off and it is all > within spec, forgot to mention that. > > Kevin > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf > Of Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches > Sent: April-25-24 11:30 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Chris Sparadeo > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] XW Pro Firmware 2.04 melting devices > > Hi Kevin, > > Let me chime in here. Last year I experienced something nearly > identical to what you are describing. 3 ea. XW pros in an off-grid > application. Things were working fine, but wanted to upgrade firmware > for a comms issue I was having with closed loop BMS and Insight. After > the 2.04 upgrade, when the generator would charge the system, voltage > would slowly creep up and after about 20 or so minutes, voltage would > hit around 250 VAC with a terrible high pitched grinding noise coming > from the inverters. This issue burned 3 of the homeowners UPS and > several LED fixtures. > > I was 99% sure this was a generator issue. After weeks of tech support > calls, a new voltage regulator and multiple return service visits... > and eventually one brand new generator... I had to come back to the > homeowner with my tail between my legs and let them know that it wasn't > generator related. Even after reverting back to the old firmware, it > seems as though the software eventually affected the hardware. Long > story short, homeowner was done with dealing with Schneider and we > ended up swapping the Conext gear for 2ea. Sol-Ark 15ks and the system > has been issue free for almost a year. Both generator run like a top. > > Sort of embarrassing to re-read this, but if I can help someone avoid > the headache I went through, it's worth it. One easy test method is to > deenergize your entire system, turn off batteries and manually bypass > your inverters. Let the generator power the loads directly and keep a > close eye on your generator frequency, voltage and THD. In my case, I > found that the generator behaved well in bypass and terribly when the > inverters were present. > > Good luck on this one! > > Chris Sparadeo > > On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 1:51 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > That sounds like a generator problem. I've seen many gen sets put out > a horrible waveform under load, when battery charging. The waveform, > (if you have an O-scope) usually has a spike on the front of the wave, > and then the wave flattens significantly after. The peak should be 169 > v on a 120 vac RMS sinewave. I've seen it as low as 135v on crappy > generators that are over loaded. THD is a great thing to check, but > also check your peak voltage, if you have a quick capture feature on > your meter. > > It also could be related to altitude, gen sets can perform badly when > they can't get enough air. You didn't mention gen set model, or > whether the frequency was a solid 60 hz. I've seen bad things happen > when the frequency got out of spec too. I'm guessing a bad voltage > regulator on the gen set. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > On 4/25/2024 11:24 AM, Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > > Curious if anyone else has seen this issue. > > New XW Pro off-grid system installed Dec 2023. Pretty standard config > for us, XW Pro, 5 kW PV, 50 kWh UnigyII battery, 8 kW high quality > diesel generator. This system ran fine all winter long - powering > customer's big RV they were living in while the house is built, Shop, > computer controlled outdoor wood boiler, domestic loads + 3 person > construction crew. Gen ran daily on auto start as we don't get much sun > Dec - Feb. No issues reported. > > Couple weeks back I did a new system check up. All performing well, > happy client. Part of that service I upgraded the XW firmware from 1.09 > to 2.04, and insight from 1.16 to 1.18. Gave the system a quick check, > ran gen. Lots of sun now, batteries full so didn't do a long generator > test. Yes I set the region codes for off-grid. > > A week later, while I was out of town and it was not so sunny so gen > running, client and their electrician called me in a panic. Two smoke > detectors had literally melted, as well as several dimmable LED > fixtures all failed. Electrician replaced the burned up devices, only > to have the same thing repeat a few days later. Talking with them it > was only when the generator was running there were issues. Told them to > lock out gen and I will get there when I can. > > Once back I attended site, fired up gen, and could hear the inverter > sounding terrible during gen charging. Lights flickering bad, and I > personally verified the smoke detectors beeping and getting warm and > the house smelled like burned plastic. I hooked up my power quality > analyser and could see the THD gradually building to over 36%. Gen > voltage was at 125/250V a bit high, so adjusted that, but no change. By > reducing the charge rate on the XW Pro to 50% was able to get the THD > down around 12% and less light flicker. But it's still too high. Image > attached shows THD with gen on original programing, then at reduced > charge rate. > > Have now gone from a happy client to a pissed off client threatening > legal action for endangering their lives & a bill from the electrician. > Ugh. Having a hard time explaining this to the client why a system > previously working fine went sideways so badly. Old guy blames the > "darned computer stuff" and he's not wrong with that opinion. > > At another site, similar config but larger system with dual XW's that I > upgraded to 2.04 firmware remotely few days ago and now the two > inverters are literally fighting each other under generator charge - > one load building to +6 kW and one (minus)6 kW. > > Sure makes me reluctant to upgrade firmware on systems that are working > fine. > > Any suggestions? > > Kevin > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu Apr 25 18:56:04 2024 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2024 18:56:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid-Tied Radian Force Discharge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A minor update here. I had the grid zero DOD volts set to 48, and the low battery cut out was set to 47.2v. But the homeowner told me that their loads cut out at some point. Does anyone know whether it is possible that Outback would be using a temperature compensated voltage for one of those setpoints and a non-temperature compensated voltage for the other one? Thanks! -Dave On Wed, Apr 24, 2024, 3:33 PM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Maverick and Steve, > > Thank you much for pointing me in the right direction here. I was looking > at the Radian setting and not the Mate3S settings. I've decided to use the > flextime schedule to have it go to grid zero mode at night when we will not > be exporting any solar power anyway. It really does not matter in this case > whether the batteries get recharged by the grid or from the AC coupled > solar. > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:25 PM Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Yes, Grid Zero would work, but the customer wouldn't be selling power to >> the utility. You could program the Radan to sell more power by lowering >> the sell voltage. I would get aggressive with it for at least 20-30 cycles >> to see if you can recover some capacity. Ideally, to recover lost capacity >> from lead batteries, you want to do 50-80% cycling for at least 5-10 >> cycles. >> >> I would be cautious about HBX mode, its issue, and why this mode should >> have died with the old Trace Eng inverters... HBX mode tends to kill >> battery banks if left there too long or you are not getting the battery to >> 100%. The problem with HBX mode is that there is no way to control absorb >> timers, so the batteries get to the 80-85% range but never get to full; if >> the batteries are lead, this is going to create sulfation problems, and if >> AGM will end up in severe swelling. If I remember correctly, you can >> adjust the delay timer for HBX, which should be equal to the programmed >> Absrob timers, but I don't know if they killed this in the new firmware. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager >> t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 >> f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for >> the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged >> material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the >> taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If >> you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or >> destroy this message and all copies. >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 1:53 PM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> You can do it in one of several easy ways. >>> >>> HPX mode on the Mate. High Battery transfer. When the battery voltage >>> and/or SOC is above the setpoint drop the grid. When the battery voltage or >>> state of charge goes below the setpoint pick up the grid. This case the >>> Mate is doing the driving. >>> >>> Also available is Grid Zero mode where the inserter decides to zero the >>> loads based on battery voltage and AC amp load. Then you would set the >>> ReBulk set point on the inverter charger to trigger charging the batteries >>> instead of zero AC loads. >>> >>> The third choice is to program something called FlexTime where you set >>> the schedule of the AC input mode from grid tide to red zero or off grid, >>> etc. >>> >>> It’s the system is on OpticsRE, you can adjust the settings fine-tune to >>> get the best performance out of those Northstar batteries. >>> >>> I just decommissioned a 36 battery group of Northstar batteries after 13 >>> years and most of them are still viable. >>> >>> As a precaution, For AC coupling, I also install a high battery AUX port >>> controlled relay that drops the AC coupling input circuit. >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> Maverick >>> >>> Maverick Brown >>> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 >>> Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. >>> • Solar Commander Remote Power >>> • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection >>> maverick at mavericksolar.com >>> 512-460-9825 >>> >>> >>> >>> On Apr 23, 2024, at 3:36 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> Hi All, >>> >>> I have an AC coupled Radian that is used to back up certain loads when >>> the grid is down. It is paired with the Northstar Blue (Outback) batteries. >>> The system sits in float nearly all the time. During a recent grid outage, >>> the batteries had less than half the capacity that I would have expected, >>> and they are only about 3.5 years old with very few cycles on them. >>> >>> I tried to talk to Outback about it, which seems to not be possible >>> anymore. I did talk to Northstar, and they recommend not leaving the >>> batteries in float all the time. >>> >>> I am wondering if anyone knows of a way to force the Radian to >>> automatically discharge the batteries to a certain voltage ideally once a >>> week, but could do daily. Essentially, I would like to utilize a time of >>> use schedule where I can force the radian to not use the grid and just use >>> the battery to power the loads for a little while. Ideally this would be >>> automatic, and not require the customer to go through the grid breaker >>> every once in a while. It seems that from the manual, I need to keep the >>> Radian in Grid Tie mode in order for it to be able to sell excess PV back >>> to the grid. Any ideas? >>> >>> Thanks! >>> -Dave >>> >>> -- >>> [image: Logo] >>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >>> Owner | Sungineer Solar >>> p: he | him | his >>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 >>> w: www.sungineersolar.com >>> c: (607) 270-0370 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 270-0370 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Thu Apr 25 22:46:17 2024 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2024 21:46:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid-Tied Radian Force Discharge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Apr 26 07:15:54 2024 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2024 05:15:54 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid-Tied Radian Force Discharge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Dave, Be sure you calibrate the flexnet and the inverter voltage. My gut feeling is that the Delta voltage you have is too tight. If you have the system on Optics, I'd set the LBCO pretty low, then observe how much voltage sag (or where your voltage cliff is) you are getting at the discharge SOC you are going for, then you can work your LBCO back up. On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 8:47 PM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Dave > > What is the size of the battery bank and what is the typical load, let’s > say at night or some other peak time? > > Bank size, SOC and demand can influence voltage. LBCO at 47.2 could be too > high under smaller bank higher load situations. > > Also, with the AC coupled solar in an off grid case, what is the > likelyhood of reaching Absorb daily or at least a couple times a week? > > The bottom line is to know the likely solar production kWh. The load kWh > and try to use just a bit of the battery storage kWh to keep the batteries > viable and reduce the electric bill without sacrificing the backup > capacity. OpticsRE can help fine tune these settings. > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > > > On Apr 25, 2024, at 5:57 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > A minor update here. I had the grid zero DOD volts set to 48, and the low > battery cut out was set to 47.2v. But the homeowner told me that their > loads cut out at some point. Does anyone know whether it is possible that > Outback would be using a temperature compensated voltage for one of those > setpoints and a non-temperature compensated voltage for the other one? > > Thanks! > -Dave > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2024, 3:33 PM Dave Tedeyan > wrote: > >> Maverick and Steve, >> >> Thank you much for pointing me in the right direction here. I was looking >> at the Radian setting and not the Mate3S settings. I've decided to use the >> flextime schedule to have it go to grid zero mode at night when we will not >> be exporting any solar power anyway. It really does not matter in this case >> whether the batteries get recharged by the grid or from the AC coupled >> solar. >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:25 PM Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Yes, Grid Zero would work, but the customer wouldn't be selling power to >>> the utility. You could program the Radan to sell more power by lowering >>> the sell voltage. I would get aggressive with it for at least 20-30 cycles >>> to see if you can recover some capacity. Ideally, to recover lost capacity >>> from lead batteries, you want to do 50-80% cycling for at least 5-10 >>> cycles. >>> >>> I would be cautious about HBX mode, its issue, and why this mode should >>> have died with the old Trace Eng inverters... HBX mode tends to kill >>> battery banks if left there too long or you are not getting the battery to >>> 100%. The problem with HBX mode is that there is no way to control absorb >>> timers, so the batteries get to the 80-85% range but never get to full; if >>> the batteries are lead, this is going to create sulfation problems, and if >>> AGM will end up in severe swelling. If I remember correctly, you can >>> adjust the delay timer for HBX, which should be equal to the programmed >>> Absrob timers, but I don't know if they killed this in the new firmware. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager >>> t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 >>> f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only >>> for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or >>> privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of >>> or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is >>> prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender >>> and delete or destroy this message and all copies. >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 1:53 PM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> You can do it in one of several easy ways. >>>> >>>> HPX mode on the Mate. High Battery transfer. When the battery voltage >>>> and/or SOC is above the setpoint drop the grid. When the battery voltage or >>>> state of charge goes below the setpoint pick up the grid. This case the >>>> Mate is doing the driving. >>>> >>>> Also available is Grid Zero mode where the inserter decides to zero the >>>> loads based on battery voltage and AC amp load. Then you would set the >>>> ReBulk set point on the inverter charger to trigger charging the batteries >>>> instead of zero AC loads. >>>> >>>> The third choice is to program something called FlexTime where you set >>>> the schedule of the AC input mode from grid tide to red zero or off grid, >>>> etc. >>>> >>>> It’s the system is on OpticsRE, you can adjust the settings fine-tune >>>> to get the best performance out of those Northstar batteries. >>>> >>>> I just decommissioned a 36 battery group of Northstar batteries after >>>> 13 years and most of them are still viable. >>>> >>>> As a precaution, For AC coupling, I also install a high battery AUX >>>> port controlled relay that drops the AC coupling input circuit. >>>> >>>> Thank you, >>>> >>>> Maverick >>>> >>>> Maverick Brown >>>> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 >>>> Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. >>>> • Solar Commander Remote Power >>>> • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection >>>> maverick at mavericksolar.com >>>> 512-460-9825 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Apr 23, 2024, at 3:36 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>  >>>> Hi All, >>>> >>>> I have an AC coupled Radian that is used to back up certain loads when >>>> the grid is down. It is paired with the Northstar Blue (Outback) batteries. >>>> The system sits in float nearly all the time. During a recent grid outage, >>>> the batteries had less than half the capacity that I would have expected, >>>> and they are only about 3.5 years old with very few cycles on them. >>>> >>>> I tried to talk to Outback about it, which seems to not be possible >>>> anymore. I did talk to Northstar, and they recommend not leaving the >>>> batteries in float all the time. >>>> >>>> I am wondering if anyone knows of a way to force the Radian to >>>> automatically discharge the batteries to a certain voltage ideally once a >>>> week, but could do daily. Essentially, I would like to utilize a time of >>>> use schedule where I can force the radian to not use the grid and just use >>>> the battery to power the loads for a little while. Ideally this would be >>>> automatic, and not require the customer to go through the grid breaker >>>> every once in a while. It seems that from the manual, I need to keep the >>>> Radian in Grid Tie mode in order for it to be able to sell excess PV back >>>> to the grid. Any ideas? >>>> >>>> Thanks! >>>> -Dave >>>> >>>> -- >>>> [image: Logo] >>>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >>>> Owner | Sungineer Solar >>>> p: he | him | his >>>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 >>>> w: www.sungineersolar.com >>>> c: (607) 270-0370 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> [image: Logo] >> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >> Owner | Sungineer Solar >> p: he | him | his >> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> w: www.sungineersolar.com >> c: (607) 270-0370 >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Fri Apr 26 08:37:15 2024 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2024 08:37:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid-Tied Radian Force Discharge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Maverick and Mac I am using Flextime here so that we are only using Grid Zero mode from 2-6am, when there is no solar coming in. The rest of the time, the system is in Grid tied mode so that we can take advantage of as much solar as possible. But the battery bank is two strings of the NSB190 FT Blue+ batteries, for 404AH. The typical load overnight is only about 400watts from what I can tell through Optics. Since the system is grid tied it is getting to absorb every day. There is no Flexnet on this one. When we set it up, I was thinking that the Flexnet would just give bad SOC readings and confuse the customer since the batteries are not often cycled. However, it is frustrating that remotely, I can only see hourly voltage readings, which does not give much detail. However, I think I just noticed something interesting. I was about to say that the low reading is not accurate, because yesterday it showed the low being 49.2V. I noticed right now that the "temperature compensated target voltage" was 2V lower than the actual voltage. Optics seems to display the actual voltage (since I see right now that the batteries are hanging out 2V above the float setting. Anyway, if the system is using temperature compensated voltage for the cutoff, then seeing 49.2V was actually the LBCO cutoff voltage (since the settings was 47.2V). And I had the Grid Zero DOD V set to 48. So, I had 0.8V difference between the settings, but I need it to be >2V difference (on a chilly morning). Also, frustrating, is that these batteries want a 2mV per cell temp compensation. But the Radian can only do 5mV per cell. So on these cold mornings, the Radian is probably overcompensating for the cold temperatures. Cheers, Dave On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 7:45 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello Dave, > > Be sure you calibrate the flexnet and the inverter voltage. My gut > feeling is that the Delta voltage you have is too tight. If you have the > system on Optics, I'd set the LBCO pretty low, then observe how much > voltage sag (or where your voltage cliff is) you are getting at > the discharge SOC you are going for, then you can work your LBCO back up. > > > > On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 8:47 PM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Dave >> >> What is the size of the battery bank and what is the typical load, let’s >> say at night or some other peak time? >> >> Bank size, SOC and demand can influence voltage. LBCO at 47.2 could be >> too high under smaller bank higher load situations. >> >> Also, with the AC coupled solar in an off grid case, what is the >> likelyhood of reaching Absorb daily or at least a couple times a week? >> >> The bottom line is to know the likely solar production kWh. The load kWh >> and try to use just a bit of the battery storage kWh to keep the batteries >> viable and reduce the electric bill without sacrificing the backup >> capacity. OpticsRE can help fine tune these settings. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Maverick >> >> Maverick Brown >> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 >> Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. >> • Solar Commander Remote Power >> • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection >> maverick at mavericksolar.com >> 512-460-9825 >> >> >> >> On Apr 25, 2024, at 5:57 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> A minor update here. I had the grid zero DOD volts set to 48, and the low >> battery cut out was set to 47.2v. But the homeowner told me that their >> loads cut out at some point. Does anyone know whether it is possible that >> Outback would be using a temperature compensated voltage for one of those >> setpoints and a non-temperature compensated voltage for the other one? >> >> Thanks! >> -Dave >> >> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024, 3:33 PM Dave Tedeyan >> wrote: >> >>> Maverick and Steve, >>> >>> Thank you much for pointing me in the right direction here. I was >>> looking at the Radian setting and not the Mate3S settings. I've decided to >>> use the flextime schedule to have it go to grid zero mode at night when we >>> will not be exporting any solar power anyway. It really does not matter in >>> this case whether the batteries get recharged by the grid or from the AC >>> coupled solar. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:25 PM Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Yes, Grid Zero would work, but the customer wouldn't be selling power >>>> to the utility. You could program the Radan to sell more power by >>>> lowering the sell voltage. I would get aggressive with it for at least >>>> 20-30 cycles to see if you can recover some capacity. Ideally, to recover >>>> lost capacity from lead batteries, you want to do 50-80% cycling for at >>>> least 5-10 cycles. >>>> >>>> I would be cautious about HBX mode, its issue, and why this mode should >>>> have died with the old Trace Eng inverters... HBX mode tends to kill >>>> battery banks if left there too long or you are not getting the battery to >>>> 100%. The problem with HBX mode is that there is no way to control absorb >>>> timers, so the batteries get to the 80-85% range but never get to full; if >>>> the batteries are lead, this is going to create sulfation problems, and if >>>> AGM will end up in severe swelling. If I remember correctly, you can >>>> adjust the delay timer for HBX, which should be equal to the programmed >>>> Absrob timers, but I don't know if they killed this in the new firmware. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager >>>> t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 >>>> f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only >>>> for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or >>>> privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of >>>> or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is >>>> prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender >>>> and delete or destroy this message and all copies. >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 1:53 PM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> You can do it in one of several easy ways. >>>>> >>>>> HPX mode on the Mate. High Battery transfer. When the battery voltage >>>>> and/or SOC is above the setpoint drop the grid. When the battery voltage or >>>>> state of charge goes below the setpoint pick up the grid. This case the >>>>> Mate is doing the driving. >>>>> >>>>> Also available is Grid Zero mode where the inserter decides to zero >>>>> the loads based on battery voltage and AC amp load. Then you would set the >>>>> ReBulk set point on the inverter charger to trigger charging the batteries >>>>> instead of zero AC loads. >>>>> >>>>> The third choice is to program something called FlexTime where you set >>>>> the schedule of the AC input mode from grid tide to red zero or off grid, >>>>> etc. >>>>> >>>>> It’s the system is on OpticsRE, you can adjust the settings fine-tune >>>>> to get the best performance out of those Northstar batteries. >>>>> >>>>> I just decommissioned a 36 battery group of Northstar batteries after >>>>> 13 years and most of them are still viable. >>>>> >>>>> As a precaution, For AC coupling, I also install a high battery AUX >>>>> port controlled relay that drops the AC coupling input circuit. >>>>> >>>>> Thank you, >>>>> >>>>> Maverick >>>>> >>>>> Maverick Brown >>>>> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 >>>>> Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. >>>>> • Solar Commander Remote Power >>>>> • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection >>>>> maverick at mavericksolar.com >>>>> 512-460-9825 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 23, 2024, at 3:36 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>  >>>>> Hi All, >>>>> >>>>> I have an AC coupled Radian that is used to back up certain loads when >>>>> the grid is down. It is paired with the Northstar Blue (Outback) batteries. >>>>> The system sits in float nearly all the time. During a recent grid outage, >>>>> the batteries had less than half the capacity that I would have expected, >>>>> and they are only about 3.5 years old with very few cycles on them. >>>>> >>>>> I tried to talk to Outback about it, which seems to not be possible >>>>> anymore. I did talk to Northstar, and they recommend not leaving the >>>>> batteries in float all the time. >>>>> >>>>> I am wondering if anyone knows of a way to force the Radian to >>>>> automatically discharge the batteries to a certain voltage ideally once a >>>>> week, but could do daily. Essentially, I would like to utilize a time of >>>>> use schedule where I can force the radian to not use the grid and just use >>>>> the battery to power the loads for a little while. Ideally this would be >>>>> automatic, and not require the customer to go through the grid breaker >>>>> every once in a while. It seems that from the manual, I need to keep the >>>>> Radian in Grid Tie mode in order for it to be able to sell excess PV back >>>>> to the grid. Any ideas? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks! >>>>> -Dave >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> [image: Logo] >>>>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >>>>> Owner | Sungineer Solar >>>>> p: he | him | his >>>>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 >>>>> w: www.sungineersolar.com >>>>> c: (607) 270-0370 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> [image: Logo] >>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >>> Owner | Sungineer Solar >>> p: he | him | his >>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 >>> w: www.sungineersolar.com >>> c: (607) 270-0370 >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Fri Apr 26 12:04:04 2024 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2024 11:04:04 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I agree with John also. one of the better-performing off-grid houses I worked on used a 48 to 12-V Samlex converter. The 12-volt thick-walled refrigerator was about 4 amps at 12 volts. The lights, radio, and small TV drew very few amps each/ I also used an Outback 3648 inverter, which the homeowner turned on only. when needed (wash machine, etc.), I used SQ-D QO panel board in case the owner wanted to go to 120 volt AC future breaker panel. All lighting was Edison base lamps, and all wiring was NMB Romex. I wired like a normal house except for a 120-v panel and 12-v panel I relay and momentary switch by appliance for easy turning on of AC inverter. On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:49 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I agree with John. > > Most 12v fridges have small compressors. But I don’t know what they have. > Personally a major reason to go 120/ac is to get a normal refrigerator. > > But you can measure the surge/load and then size the charger accordingly. > > One feature of going charger is the lights are a lot brighter at night and > last longer because they are not at 15v during the day. > > Jay > > > On Apr 24, 2024, at 5:01 AM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Jason, > I have a customer with the same situation except he already has a 12 V > VFX inverter, He has a sunfrost fridge and other small loads with a very > fancy custom control board > originally set up to handle AC and DC systems. We are adding a lot more > solar and I was considering a dual battery system but the owner didn't like > that idea. We are going with and Iota 12v power supply (i use one at my > house for my sunfrost) to power up all his DC loads and will be adding a > large 48 V battery bank and over 4Kw of solar using a VFXR3648 directly in > place of the 12V inverter. He complained that the existing inverter would > not handle all his current AC loads very well. My own house is fully wired > for 12VDC as well as AC (lots of #10 copper not being used) and I have been > considering getting a small LFP 12V battery to put back on by DC System. > Then use the Iota as a secondary charging method with some of my large > stash of older modules hooked up for 12V direct with C40 charge controller > to recreate my original system just for kicks. I'm only using DC for my > Sunfrost and one "emergency light" in the livingroom right now. For your > customer, a small LFP 12v battery (approximately $500 or less) to replace > his old battery bankm and more larger ones for the new AC side with 48V > inverter fed by his generator or through an Iota 48 V charger ifusing a > smaller non charging inverter. Unlike Dave, I like these challenges. Maybe > thats why I never seem to make money.!! > > John Blittersdorf > offgridvermont.com > > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 7:22 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Fortunately, the owner is pretty handy and is willing to live with any >> negative consequences. That said, I want to offer him something as simple >> and bulletproof as possible. I am walking into this with eyes wide open, >> for sure. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:47 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >> RE-wrenches wrote: >> >>> Not being helpful but I walk away from these. It will come back to you. >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060* >>> >>> >>> On 2024-04-23 2:40 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> I have an off-grid client who is working on replacing old equipment at a >>> cabin. He has a lot of 12 volt distribution in the house for lighting, >>> fans, and a 12 volt refrigerator. He also has 120 volt AC loads that run >>> through a separate distribution panel where the only source is a 2000 Watt >>> Honda generator. There is no inverter present. The batteries are charged >>> through a Trace C40. >>> >>> He currently has a few ancient solar panels and a struggling Bank of AGM >>> batteries. It's time for an upgrade. I can easily supply enough PV power >>> for what he needs. He currently has a 9 kilowatt hour battery capacity that >>> he was happy with when the batteries operated optimally. Nonetheless, I >>> would probably future-proof him with a 10 to 15 kilowatt hour LiPo to >>> double or triple his usable capacity. >>> >>> For convenience, obviously it would be nice to have an inverter to >>> eliminate or reduce the generator requirement. But he seems committed to >>> keeping his 12 volt distribution because it would be costly to replace >>> fixtures. I think he would consider replacing the 12 volt refrigerator if >>> he has an inverter. >>> >>> He definitely wants LiPo batteries. >>> >>> I don't like the idea of 12 volt direct from a battery plus connecting >>> an inverter to that same battery. It is going to be hard to measure and >>> monitor things. >>> >>> I am thinking about using a 48 volt battery with a single phase 120 volt >>> inverter, getting him to change to a 120 volt refrigerator, and using a DC >>> converter to give him somewhere in the range of 100 amps at 12 volts for >>> his existing DC lighting and fan loads. Is this a bad idea? Should I stick >>> with a 12 volt battery system? He does have a tiny 12 volt pressure pump >>> which might be an issue for the converter. I'm not sure. I am a bit worried >>> about the efficiency loss and capacity of DC converters and not sure how to >>> size it. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Apr 26 17:38:09 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2024 14:38:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42043F3F-9C5C-48FB-9770-87D0A49FA07F@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Apr 26 18:51:38 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2024 15:51:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large transformer losses Message-ID: Hi all. Anyone know what the tare loss and efficiency is of a 75 kw transformer? And it would be run mostly at 1-10kw max. This one specifically. hammond SG3L0075PE I’m just curious about it. The situation is 240vac grid at the street, 600’ to the house 400 amps. Why 400 amps on a house with propane heat, cooking, water heater, dryer and no AC. I don’t know. Thanks Jay From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Fri Apr 26 19:30:42 2024 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2024 18:30:42 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large transformer losses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jay I have gotten this type of information directly from Hammond, I would think from transformer to House line loss should be considered. From my Experiance, people go to 400 amp services mostly for circuit count. I have measured a few transformers in past but I don't know where data is now. On Fri, Apr 26, 2024, 5:54 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi all. > > Anyone know what the tare loss and efficiency is of a 75 kw transformer? > And it would be run mostly at 1-10kw max. > > This one specifically. > hammond SG3L0075PE > > I’m just curious about it. The situation is 240vac grid at the street, > 600’ to the house 400 amps. > > > Why 400 amps on a house with propane heat, cooking, water heater, dryer > and no AC. > I don’t know. > > Thanks > Jay > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Fri Apr 26 19:32:25 2024 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2024 18:32:25 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large transformer losses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Do you know the transformer impedance? On Fri, Apr 26, 2024, 5:54 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi all. > > Anyone know what the tare loss and efficiency is of a 75 kw transformer? > And it would be run mostly at 1-10kw max. > > This one specifically. > hammond SG3L0075PE > > I’m just curious about it. The situation is 240vac grid at the street, > 600’ to the house 400 amps. > > > Why 400 amps on a house with propane heat, cooking, water heater, dryer > and no AC. > I don’t know. > > Thanks > Jay > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Fri Apr 26 19:58:05 2024 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2024 23:58:05 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Pro Firmware 2.04 melting devices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Following up on the issue I reported earlier this week. Schneider has finally admitted there are flaws in 2.04 firmware. "I'm sorry to hear about your issues with generator interaction with the XWPro inverter. Investigation of this issue has found that certain generators will exhibit unstable ac output under certain conditions of charger power and load level. We are confident that we can roll out a firmware fix to address this issue in the coming weeks (or sooner). Meanwhile we recommend using firmware version 1.11 on sites which use generators. " I downgraded the firmware today for a client who lives nearby and was experiencing extreme power quality issues while generator running. Testing the power quality before and after confirms that firmware 1.11 does resolve the issue. I may well leave off-grid clients reliant on backup generators on 1.11 unless there is a compelling reason for the newest. The one feature I have been requesting for a couple years now is to re-enable generator charging on AC1, which the XWPro currently does not support. We have many off-grid clients with dual generators on XW6048's who lost that functionality when upgrading to XWPros. Kevin From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches Sent: April-25-24 10:25 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: Kevin Pegg Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Pro Firmware 2.04 melting devices Hi Wrenches, Curious if anyone else has seen this issue. New XW Pro off-grid system installed Dec 2023. Pretty standard config for us, XW Pro, 5 kW PV, 50 kWh UnigyII battery, 8 kW high quality diesel generator. This system ran fine all winter long - powering customer's big RV they were living in while the house is built, Shop, computer controlled outdoor wood boiler, domestic loads + 3 person construction crew. Gen ran daily on auto start as we don't get much sun Dec - Feb. No issues reported. Couple weeks back I did a new system check up. All performing well, happy client. Part of that service I upgraded the XW firmware from 1.09 to 2.04, and insight from 1.16 to 1.18. Gave the system a quick check, ran gen. Lots of sun now, batteries full so didn't do a long generator test. Yes I set the region codes for off-grid. A week later, while I was out of town and it was not so sunny so gen running, client and their electrician called me in a panic. Two smoke detectors had literally melted, as well as several dimmable LED fixtures all failed. Electrician replaced the burned up devices, only to have the same thing repeat a few days later. Talking with them it was only when the generator was running there were issues. Told them to lock out gen and I will get there when I can. Once back I attended site, fired up gen, and could hear the inverter sounding terrible during gen charging. Lights flickering bad, and I personally verified the smoke detectors beeping and getting warm and the house smelled like burned plastic. I hooked up my power quality analyser and could see the THD gradually building to over 36%. Gen voltage was at 125/250V a bit high, so adjusted that, but no change. By reducing the charge rate on the XW Pro to 50% was able to get the THD down around 12% and less light flicker. But it's still too high. Image attached shows THD with gen on original programing, then at reduced charge rate. Have now gone from a happy client to a pissed off client threatening legal action for endangering their lives & a bill from the electrician. Ugh. Having a hard time explaining this to the client why a system previously working fine went sideways so badly. Old guy blames the "darned computer stuff" and he's not wrong with that opinion. At another site, similar config but larger system with dual XW's that I upgraded to 2.04 firmware remotely few days ago and now the two inverters are literally fighting each other under generator charge - one load building to +6 kW and one (minus)6 kW. Sure makes me reluctant to upgrade firmware on systems that are working fine. Any suggestions? Kevin [cid:image001.jpg at 01DA97FA.CF369550] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 724429 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Apr 26 20:23:19 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2024 17:23:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large transformer losses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51F2D1E2-20DD-4A33-86B6-8DE93DD551D6@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at vecoop.ca Fri Apr 26 20:26:30 2024 From: eric at vecoop.ca (Eric Smiley) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2024 17:26:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Pro Firmware 2.04 melting devices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I postpone firmware updates now. I had a Conext SW inverter that stopped equalizing after a firmware update . The client thought they were equalizing and the inverter said it was equalizing but the voltage never went above bulk during equalizing. I miss the dumb inverters. Eric Smiley (he/him) - Design Manager 250.703.6004 eric at vecoop.ca 888.386.0116 3-4997 Polkey Rd, Duncan BC, V9L 6W3 viridiansolar.ca Viridian Solar honours the ancestral grounds on which we live and provide services, recognising that these lands are unceded Indigenous territory. We are steadfast in our commitment to reconciliation and acknowledge the rich history and traditions that characterise this land that we all consider home. On Fri, 26 Apr 2024 at 16:59, Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Following up on the issue I reported earlier this week. Schneider has > finally admitted there are flaws in 2.04 firmware. > > > > “I’m sorry to hear about your issues with generator interaction with the > XWPro inverter. Investigation of this issue has found that certain > generators will exhibit unstable ac output under certain conditions of > charger power and load level. We are confident that we can roll out a > firmware fix to address this issue in the coming weeks (or sooner). > Meanwhile we recommend using firmware version 1.11 on sites which use > generators. “ > > > > I downgraded the firmware today for a client who lives nearby and was > experiencing extreme power quality issues while generator running. Testing > the power quality before and after confirms that firmware 1.11 does resolve > the issue. > > > > I may well leave off-grid clients reliant on backup generators on 1.11 > unless there is a compelling reason for the newest. The one feature I have > been requesting for a couple years now is to re-enable generator charging > on AC1, which the XWPro currently does not support. We have many off-grid > clients with dual generators on XW6048’s who lost that functionality when > upgrading to XWPros. > > > > Kevin > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* April-25-24 10:25 AM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Cc:* Kevin Pegg > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] XW Pro Firmware 2.04 melting devices > > > > Hi Wrenches, > > > > Curious if anyone else has seen this issue. > > > > New XW Pro off-grid system installed Dec 2023. Pretty standard config for > us, XW Pro, 5 kW PV, 50 kWh UnigyII battery, 8 kW high quality diesel > generator. This system ran fine all winter long – powering customer’s big > RV they were living in while the house is built, Shop, computer controlled > outdoor wood boiler, domestic loads + 3 person construction crew. Gen ran > daily on auto start as we don’t get much sun Dec – Feb. No issues reported. > > > > Couple weeks back I did a new system check up. All performing well, happy > client. Part of that service I upgraded the XW firmware from 1.09 to 2.04, > and insight from 1.16 to 1.18. Gave the system a quick check, ran gen. Lots > of sun now, batteries full so didn’t do a long generator test. Yes I set > the region codes for off-grid. > > > > A week later, while I was out of town and it was not so sunny so gen > running, client and their electrician called me in a panic. Two smoke > detectors had literally melted, as well as several dimmable LED fixtures > all failed. Electrician replaced the burned up devices, only to have the > same thing repeat a few days later. Talking with them it was only when the > generator was running there were issues. Told them to lock out gen and I > will get there when I can. > > > > Once back I attended site, fired up gen, and could hear the inverter > sounding terrible during gen charging. Lights flickering bad, and I > personally verified the smoke detectors beeping and getting warm and the > house smelled like burned plastic. I hooked up my power quality analyser > and could see the THD gradually building to over 36%. Gen voltage was at > 125/250V a bit high, so adjusted that, but no change. By reducing the > charge rate on the XW Pro to 50% was able to get the THD down around 12% > and less light flicker. But it’s still too high. Image attached shows THD > with gen on original programing, then at reduced charge rate. > > > > Have now gone from a happy client to a pissed off client threatening legal > action for endangering their lives & a bill from the electrician. Ugh. > Having a hard time explaining this to the client why a system previously > working fine went sideways so badly. Old guy blames the “darned computer > stuff” and he’s not wrong with that opinion. > > > > At another site, similar config but larger system with dual XW’s that I > upgraded to 2.04 firmware remotely few days ago and now the two inverters > are literally fighting each other under generator charge – one load > building to +6 kW and one (minus)6 kW. > > > > Sure makes me reluctant to upgrade firmware on systems that are working > fine. > > > > Any suggestions? > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 724429 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Apr 26 21:22:31 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2024 18:22:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large transformer losses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Should be easy enough to look up on the manufacturer’s website. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 3:54 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi all. > > Anyone know what the tare loss and efficiency is of a 75 kw transformer? > And it would be run mostly at 1-10kw max. > > This one specifically. > hammond SG3L0075PE > > I’m just curious about it. The situation is 240vac grid at the street, > 600’ to the house 400 amps. > > > Why 400 amps on a house with propane heat, cooking, water heater, dryer > and no AC. > I don’t know. > > Thanks > Jay > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Fri Apr 26 22:50:05 2024 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2024 22:50:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system In-Reply-To: <42043F3F-9C5C-48FB-9770-87D0A49FA07F@gmail.com> References: <42043F3F-9C5C-48FB-9770-87D0A49FA07F@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have a new client wanting to upgrade an old system with DR inverter, 4 golf cart batteries Trace C40 CC and two small PV panels. The system was definitely installed by a professional with breakers and switched and I am looking at the photo the customer emailed to me and other than upsizing the PV array and new batteries, there seems to be no reason to change the inverter which is very energy efficient. His loads are minimal with a vacuum the only load to be added. Another customer called about 18 years after I installed his DR system, Seems that the inverter failed. He had replaced the batteries once or twice and no other issues. Got there to check out the failure, I had voltage at the inverter DC connections. So I pushed the TINY little black start button and it fired right up. This system had been so reliable that he had forgotten that there was and on/off reset button. For now though, I'm sticking with Outback in spite of the FM100 seeming to have hair trigger GFCI circuit As with many of my clients off-grid second home with a view, access is sometimes difficult so I rely heavily on OpticRE to make sure their lights are on and to keep micro managing customers off my back when they call ask why the solar input is only 1200 watts when they have 7K of panels on a perfect sunny day. I look at optics and their batteries are full... DUH I even have two Magnum systems (not my install) with FM60's with AUX Relay so I can use MATE3 & OpticsRE to check battery voltage, charging, setting charging perameters and start and stop the generator remotely. John On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 5:39 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I’ve had no issues with qo over the years for 12v except if they get dirt > in them from mud dobber wasps. > > Jay > > On Apr 26, 2024, at 9:05 AM, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > I agree with John also. one of the better-performing off-grid houses I > worked on used a 48 to 12-V Samlex converter. The 12-volt thick-walled > refrigerator was about 4 amps at 12 volts. The lights, radio, and small TV > drew very few amps each/ I also used an Outback 3648 inverter, which the > homeowner turned on only. when needed (wash machine, etc.), I used SQ-D QO > panel board in case the owner wanted to go to 120 volt AC future breaker > panel. All lighting was Edison base lamps, and all wiring was NMB Romex. I > wired like a normal house except for a 120-v panel and 12-v panel I relay > and momentary switch by appliance for easy turning on of AC inverter. > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:49 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I agree with John. >> >> Most 12v fridges have small compressors. But I don’t know what they have. >> Personally a major reason to go 120/ac is to get a normal refrigerator. >> >> But you can measure the surge/load and then size the charger >> accordingly. >> >> One feature of going charger is the lights are a lot brighter at night >> and last longer because they are not at 15v during the day. >> >> Jay >> >> >> On Apr 24, 2024, at 5:01 AM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> Jason, >> I have a customer with the same situation except he already has a 12 V >> VFX inverter, He has a sunfrost fridge and other small loads with a very >> fancy custom control board >> originally set up to handle AC and DC systems. We are adding a lot more >> solar and I was considering a dual battery system but the owner didn't like >> that idea. We are going with and Iota 12v power supply (i use one at my >> house for my sunfrost) to power up all his DC loads and will be adding a >> large 48 V battery bank and over 4Kw of solar using a VFXR3648 directly in >> place of the 12V inverter. He complained that the existing inverter would >> not handle all his current AC loads very well. My own house is fully wired >> for 12VDC as well as AC (lots of #10 copper not being used) and I have been >> considering getting a small LFP 12V battery to put back on by DC System. >> Then use the Iota as a secondary charging method with some of my large >> stash of older modules hooked up for 12V direct with C40 charge controller >> to recreate my original system just for kicks. I'm only using DC for my >> Sunfrost and one "emergency light" in the livingroom right now. For your >> customer, a small LFP 12v battery (approximately $500 or less) to replace >> his old battery bankm and more larger ones for the new AC side with 48V >> inverter fed by his generator or through an Iota 48 V charger ifusing a >> smaller non charging inverter. Unlike Dave, I like these challenges. Maybe >> thats why I never seem to make money.!! >> >> John Blittersdorf >> offgridvermont.com >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 7:22 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Fortunately, the owner is pretty handy and is willing to live with any >>> negative consequences. That said, I want to offer him something as simple >>> and bulletproof as possible. I am walking into this with eyes wide open, >>> for sure. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:47 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>>> Not being helpful but I walk away from these. It will come back to you. >>>> >>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>> text 209 813 0060* >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2024-04-23 2:40 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> >>>> I have an off-grid client who is working on replacing old equipment at >>>> a cabin. He has a lot of 12 volt distribution in the house for lighting, >>>> fans, and a 12 volt refrigerator. He also has 120 volt AC loads that run >>>> through a separate distribution panel where the only source is a 2000 Watt >>>> Honda generator. There is no inverter present. The batteries are charged >>>> through a Trace C40. >>>> >>>> He currently has a few ancient solar panels and a struggling Bank of >>>> AGM batteries. It's time for an upgrade. I can easily supply enough PV >>>> power for what he needs. He currently has a 9 kilowatt hour battery >>>> capacity that he was happy with when the batteries operated optimally. >>>> Nonetheless, I would probably future-proof him with a 10 to 15 kilowatt >>>> hour LiPo to double or triple his usable capacity. >>>> >>>> For convenience, obviously it would be nice to have an inverter to >>>> eliminate or reduce the generator requirement. But he seems committed to >>>> keeping his 12 volt distribution because it would be costly to replace >>>> fixtures. I think he would consider replacing the 12 volt refrigerator if >>>> he has an inverter. >>>> >>>> He definitely wants LiPo batteries. >>>> >>>> I don't like the idea of 12 volt direct from a battery plus connecting >>>> an inverter to that same battery. It is going to be hard to measure and >>>> monitor things. >>>> >>>> I am thinking about using a 48 volt battery with a single phase 120 >>>> volt inverter, getting him to change to a 120 volt refrigerator, and using >>>> a DC converter to give him somewhere in the range of 100 amps at 12 volts >>>> for his existing DC lighting and fan loads. Is this a bad idea? Should I >>>> stick with a 12 volt battery system? He does have a tiny 12 volt pressure >>>> pump which might be an issue for the converter. I'm not sure. I am a bit >>>> worried about the efficiency loss and capacity of DC converters and not >>>> sure how to size it. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri Apr 26 23:32:43 2024 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2024 21:32:43 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system In-Reply-To: References: <42043F3F-9C5C-48FB-9770-87D0A49FA07F@gmail.com> Message-ID: John; I had quite a few Trace DR series in the field back in the day, but only one left alive today, fortunately in my guest cabin and not at a client's house. They had a pretty OK waveform for a modified square wave inverter, but some modern appliances were just a no-go with a DR, including some microwaves, LED lights, cordless tool chargers, fridges, and washers. I also found them particularly sensitive to lightning damage, we had a single strike that took out every DR within a 1/2 mile radius. Good product at a nice price point for the era, but honestly if given a choice I'd take a Trace U-series over a DR now. Fortunately we have better waveform options now too! Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 8:50 PM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I have a new client wanting to upgrade an old system with DR inverter, 4 > golf cart batteries Trace C40 CC and two small PV panels. The system was > definitely installed by a professional with breakers and switched and I am > looking at the photo the customer emailed to me and other than upsizing the > PV array and new batteries, there seems to be no reason to change the > inverter which is very energy efficient. His loads are minimal with a > vacuum the only load to be > added. Another customer called about 18 years after I installed his DR > system, Seems that the inverter failed. He had replaced the batteries once > or twice and no > other issues. Got there to check out the failure, I had voltage at the > inverter DC connections. So I pushed the TINY little black start button and > it fired right up. > This system had been so reliable that he had forgotten that there was and > on/off reset button. For now though, I'm sticking with Outback in spite of > the FM100 > seeming to have hair trigger GFCI circuit As with many of my clients > off-grid second home with a view, access is sometimes difficult so I rely > heavily on OpticRE > to make sure their lights are on and to keep micro managing customers off > my back when they call ask why the solar input is only 1200 watts when they > have 7K of panels on a perfect sunny day. I look at optics and their > batteries are full... DUH I even have two Magnum systems (not my install) > with FM60's with AUX Relay so I can use MATE3 & OpticsRE to check battery > voltage, charging, setting charging perameters and start and stop the > generator remotely. > > John > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Sat Apr 27 08:46:34 2024 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2024 08:46:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system In-Reply-To: References: <42043F3F-9C5C-48FB-9770-87D0A49FA07F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Shifting the small off grid thread a little, I'm trying to find replacement wind turbines for the Bergey XL.1 in the 1-2 kw range that is quiet and the blades don't blow off. Bergey is suggesting Bornay 1kw. Does anyone have first hand knowledge about this turbine or the manufacturer. I am interested in performance, sourcing etc. After having to sell my Pika T701 to a customer i have tried cheap ($1000) chinese that turned out to be a 300 watt turbine and didn't last a year before the hub casting broke and the blade and turbine landed 200' from the tower in pieces. John Blittersdorf CV Wind Service On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 11:33 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > John; I had quite a few Trace DR series in the field back in the day, but > only one left alive today, fortunately in my guest cabin and not at a > client's house. They had a pretty OK waveform for a modified square wave > inverter, but some modern appliances were just a no-go with a DR, including > some microwaves, LED lights, cordless tool chargers, fridges, and washers. > I also found them particularly sensitive to lightning damage, we had a > single strike that took out every DR within a 1/2 mile radius. > Good product at a nice price point for the era, but honestly if given a > choice I'd take a Trace U-series over a DR now. Fortunately we have better > waveform options now too! > Dan Fink > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > NABCEP PV Associate > d anbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 8:50 PM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I have a new client wanting to upgrade an old system with DR inverter, 4 >> golf cart batteries Trace C40 CC and two small PV panels. The system was >> definitely installed by a professional with breakers and switched and I >> am looking at the photo the customer emailed to me and other than upsizing >> the PV array and new batteries, there seems to be no reason to change the >> inverter which is very energy efficient. His loads are minimal with a >> vacuum the only load to be >> added. Another customer called about 18 years after I installed his DR >> system, Seems that the inverter failed. He had replaced the batteries once >> or twice and no >> other issues. Got there to check out the failure, I had voltage at the >> inverter DC connections. So I pushed the TINY little black start button and >> it fired right up. >> This system had been so reliable that he had forgotten that there was and >> on/off reset button. For now though, I'm sticking with Outback in spite of >> the FM100 >> seeming to have hair trigger GFCI circuit As with many of my clients >> off-grid second home with a view, access is sometimes difficult so I rely >> heavily on OpticRE >> to make sure their lights are on and to keep micro managing customers off >> my back when they call ask why the solar input is only 1200 watts when they >> have 7K of panels on a perfect sunny day. I look at optics and their >> batteries are full... DUH I even have two Magnum systems (not my install) >> with FM60's with AUX Relay so I can use MATE3 & OpticsRE to check battery >> voltage, charging, setting charging perameters and start and stop the >> generator remotely. >> >> John >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jjhaeme at frontiernet.net Sat Apr 27 09:46:41 2024 From: jjhaeme at frontiernet.net (Jon Haeme) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2024 08:46:41 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system In-Reply-To: References: <42043F3F-9C5C-48FB-9770-87D0A49FA07F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <66B87CAD-8760-461C-B9E4-E9F34D21CB97@frontiernet.net> John, I bought a Braun Antartis 2.5 kw wind turbine in 2019 to replace an old ARE 2.5 kw turbine. The Braun has worked well for the last 5 years. I had to import it from Germany. The old ARE generated more energy, but the Braun is quieter and seems more reliable. https://braun-windturbinen.com/ I only had one incident where lightning took out a board on the controller. It was well grounded and protected by Midnite Surge Protectors, but this was close strike that took out our garage door opener and a few other things as well. They shipped a replacement and it was easy to swap out. Everything is mounted on DIN rails in the control panel. Jon Haeme > On Apr 27, 2024, at 7:46 AM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Shifting the small off grid thread a little, I'm trying to find replacement wind turbines for the Bergey XL.1 in the 1-2 kw range that is quiet and the blades don't blow off. > Bergey is suggesting Bornay 1kw. Does anyone have first hand knowledge about this turbine or the manufacturer. I am interested in performance, sourcing etc. After having to sell my Pika T701 to a customer i have tried cheap ($1000) chinese that turned out to be a 300 watt turbine and didn't last a year before the hub casting broke and the blade and turbine landed 200' from the tower in pieces. > > John Blittersdorf > CV Wind Service > > On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 11:33 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> John; I had quite a few Trace DR series in the field back in the day, but only one left alive today, fortunately in my guest cabin and not at a client's house. They had a pretty OK waveform for a modified square wave inverter, but some modern appliances were just a no-go with a DR, including some microwaves, LED lights, cordless tool chargers, fridges, and washers. I also found them particularly sensitive to lightning damage, we had a single strike that took out every DR within a 1/2 mile radius. >> Good product at a nice price point for the era, but honestly if given a choice I'd take a Trace U-series over a DR now. Fortunately we have better waveform options now too! >> Dan Fink >> Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC >> IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation >> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector >> NABCEP PV Associate >> d anbob88 at gmail.com >> 970-672-4342 >> >> On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 8:50 PM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> I have a new client wanting to upgrade an old system with DR inverter, 4 golf cart batteries Trace C40 CC and two small PV panels. The system was >>> definitely installed by a professional with breakers and switched and I am looking at the photo the customer emailed to me and other than upsizing the PV array and new batteries, there seems to be no reason to change the inverter which is very energy efficient. His loads are minimal with a vacuum the only load to be >>> added. Another customer called about 18 years after I installed his DR system, Seems that the inverter failed. He had replaced the batteries once or twice and no >>> other issues. Got there to check out the failure, I had voltage at the inverter DC connections. So I pushed the TINY little black start button and it fired right up. >>> This system had been so reliable that he had forgotten that there was and on/off reset button. For now though, I'm sticking with Outback in spite of the FM100 >>> seeming to have hair trigger GFCI circuit As with many of my clients off-grid second home with a view, access is sometimes difficult so I rely heavily on OpticRE >>> to make sure their lights are on and to keep micro managing customers off my back when they call ask why the solar input is only 1200 watts when they have 7K of panels on a perfect sunny day. I look at optics and their batteries are full... DUH I even have two Magnum systems (not my install) with FM60's with AUX Relay so I can use MATE3 & OpticsRE to check battery voltage, charging, setting charging perameters and start and stop the generator remotely. >>> >>> John >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: favicon.ico Type: image/vnd.microsoft.icon Size: 1013 bytes Desc: not available URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sat Apr 27 10:55:36 2024 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2024 08:55:36 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system In-Reply-To: References: <42043F3F-9C5C-48FB-9770-87D0A49FA07F@gmail.com> Message-ID: John - much better to start a new thread on this so the small wind turbine tag is seen. I'm interested too, and I have not seen much new info on the small wind manufacturer topic here for a few months. Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Sat, Apr 27, 2024 at 6:47 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Shifting the small off grid thread a little, I'm trying to find > replacement wind turbines for the Bergey XL.1 in the 1-2 kw range that is > quiet and the blades don't blow off. > Bergey is suggesting Bornay 1kw. Does anyone have first hand > knowledge about this turbine or the manufacturer. I am interested in > performance, sourcing etc. After having to sell my Pika T701 to a > customer i have tried cheap ($1000) chinese that turned out to be a 300 > watt turbine and didn't last a year before the hub casting broke and the > blade and turbine landed 200' from the tower in pieces. > > John Blittersdorf > CV Wind Service > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Apr 27 12:08:32 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2024 09:08:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Pro Firmware 2.04 melting devices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Might want to get him to buy a voltmeter and safety glasses. Pretty dangerous for anyone to do an EQ without a second set of eyes😉 Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [2]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [3] [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-04-26 5:26 pm, Eric Smiley via RE-wrenches wrote: > I postpone firmware updates now. > > I had a Conext SW inverter that stopped equalizing after a firmware > update . The client thought they were equalizing and the inverter said > it was equalizing but the voltage never went above bulk during > equalizing. > > I miss the dumb inverters. > > Eric Smiley (he/him) - Design Manager > 250.703.6004 > eric at vecoop.ca > 888.386.0116 > 3-4997 Polkey Rd, Duncan BC, V9L 6W3 > viridiansolar.ca [1] > > Viridian Solar honours the ancestral grounds on which we live and > provide services, recognising that these lands are unceded Indigenous > territory. We are steadfast in our commitment to reconciliation and > acknowledge the rich history and traditions that characterise this land > that we all consider home. > > On Fri, 26 Apr 2024 at 16:59, Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches > wrote: > >> Following up on the issue I reported earlier this week. Schneider has >> finally admitted there are flaws in 2.04 firmware. >> >> "I'm sorry to hear about your issues with generator interaction with >> the XWPro inverter. Investigation of this issue has found that certain >> generators will exhibit unstable ac output under certain conditions of >> charger power and load level. We are confident that we can roll out a >> firmware fix to address this issue in the coming weeks (or sooner). >> Meanwhile we recommend using firmware version 1.11 on sites which use >> generators. " >> >> I downgraded the firmware today for a client who lives nearby and was >> experiencing extreme power quality issues while generator running. >> Testing the power quality before and after confirms that firmware 1.11 >> does resolve the issue. >> >> I may well leave off-grid clients reliant on backup generators on 1.11 >> unless there is a compelling reason for the newest. The one feature I >> have been requesting for a couple years now is to re-enable generator >> charging on AC1, which the XWPro currently does not support. We have >> many off-grid clients with dual generators on XW6048's who lost that >> functionality when upgrading to XWPros. >> >> Kevin >> >> From: RE-wrenches On >> Behalf Of Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches >> Sent: April-25-24 10:25 AM >> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Cc: Kevin Pegg >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Pro Firmware 2.04 melting devices >> >> Hi Wrenches, >> >> Curious if anyone else has seen this issue. >> >> New XW Pro off-grid system installed Dec 2023. Pretty standard config >> for us, XW Pro, 5 kW PV, 50 kWh UnigyII battery, 8 kW high quality >> diesel generator. This system ran fine all winter long - powering >> customer's big RV they were living in while the house is built, Shop, >> computer controlled outdoor wood boiler, domestic loads + 3 person >> construction crew. Gen ran daily on auto start as we don't get much >> sun Dec - Feb. No issues reported. >> >> Couple weeks back I did a new system check up. All performing well, >> happy client. Part of that service I upgraded the XW firmware from >> 1.09 to 2.04, and insight from 1.16 to 1.18. Gave the system a quick >> check, ran gen. Lots of sun now, batteries full so didn't do a long >> generator test. Yes I set the region codes for off-grid. >> >> A week later, while I was out of town and it was not so sunny so gen >> running, client and their electrician called me in a panic. Two smoke >> detectors had literally melted, as well as several dimmable LED >> fixtures all failed. Electrician replaced the burned up devices, only >> to have the same thing repeat a few days later. Talking with them it >> was only when the generator was running there were issues. Told them >> to lock out gen and I will get there when I can. >> >> Once back I attended site, fired up gen, and could hear the inverter >> sounding terrible during gen charging. Lights flickering bad, and I >> personally verified the smoke detectors beeping and getting warm and >> the house smelled like burned plastic. I hooked up my power quality >> analyser and could see the THD gradually building to over 36%. Gen >> voltage was at 125/250V a bit high, so adjusted that, but no change. >> By reducing the charge rate on the XW Pro to 50% was able to get the >> THD down around 12% and less light flicker. But it's still too high. >> Image attached shows THD with gen on original programing, then at >> reduced charge rate. >> >> Have now gone from a happy client to a pissed off client threatening >> legal action for endangering their lives & a bill from the >> electrician. Ugh. Having a hard time explaining this to the client why >> a system previously working fine went sideways so badly. Old guy >> blames the "darned computer stuff" and he's not wrong with that >> opinion. >> >> At another site, similar config but larger system with dual XW's that >> I upgraded to 2.04 firmware remotely few days ago and now the two >> inverters are literally fighting each other under generator charge - >> one load building to +6 kW and one (minus)6 kW. >> >> Sure makes me reluctant to upgrade firmware on systems that are >> working fine. >> >> Any suggestions? >> >> Kevin >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] https://www.google.com/url?q=https://viridiansolar.ca&source=gmail-html&ust=1702155901939000&usg=AOvVaw3SHpXB-WRSlzWmjpz4htqG [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 724429 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Sat Apr 27 17:08:10 2024 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2024 14:08:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarPro & Home Power magazines Message-ID: <1714252387427.0cef456f2f20563b@re-wrenches.org> Please contact me off-list if you have any concerns or questions. I wanted to remind folks that all back issues of SolarPro & Home Power magazines are available for free at: https://www.solarprofessional.com/ and: https://www.homepower.com/ From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri May 3 09:54:16 2024 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 3 May 2024 07:54:16 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discover Xanbus SOC jumpy Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, I have a system that suddenly started seeing quite a few SOC drops and blips, causing generator starts. Here is an example SOC chart: [image: image.png] I plan to head up and apply a firmware update on the batteries, check cabling etc but Im curious if anyone has encountered/solved this issue. Much appreciated. -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 45533 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri May 3 10:28:11 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 07:28:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discover Xanbus SOC jumpy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Which model? Do you see the same dips in voltage? Probably yes. Are all the batts the same firmware? The AES dashboard can be useful for finding a differing module. No I have not seen this and only have had one bad battery that was replaced by AES. Yes check all wiring. Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-05-03 6:54 am, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > I have a system that suddenly started seeing quite a few SOC drops and > blips, causing generator starts. > > Here is an example SOC chart: > > I plan to head up and apply a firmware update on the batteries, check > cabling etc but Im curious if anyone has encountered/solved this issue. > > Much appreciated. > -- > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: c599bd74.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 29387 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 4fbcd6ad.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 20902 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 45533 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nponzio at buildingenergyus.com Fri May 3 10:47:11 2024 From: nponzio at buildingenergyus.com (Nicholas Ponzio) Date: Fri, 3 May 2024 10:47:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] alte gone? Message-ID: Is the altestore kaput? Their website is still active but their phones are disconnected. What's the scuttlebutt? Is there some way I can squeeze one more old fashioned slang term into this email? No? Malarkey! Also, is RE-bitching still active? The archives are still available but the search feature doesn't work... -- Nicholas Ponzio Building Energy 1570 South Brownell Road Williston, VT 05495 Book a virtual meeting with me Text or Voice Call: 802-318-7003 Email: nponzio at buildingenergyus.com http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com "Building Solutions for a Sustainable Future" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Fri May 3 11:09:39 2024 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Fri, 3 May 2024 09:09:39 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] alte gone? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Nicholas, If we take a deep dive into this issue we may be able to close the loop on whether the industry is in lock step to leverage its synergy and make the necessary paradigm shift to pivot. Alternatively if there aren't the necessary boots on the ground nor tools in the tool kit to think outside of the box then the issue may just get tabled. So long and thanks for all the fish, Sam Haraldson Montana #happyfriday #re-bitching -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Fri May 3 11:21:28 2024 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Fri, 3 May 2024 08:21:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discover AES explosion! Message-ID: Two days ago, one of my clients came home to find the door of his powershed blown off its hinges and a smoldering Discover AES. The case was still intact and the entire room is coated with a fine graphite-like powder. The fire department was unable/unwilling to do anything to cool the battery down and it smoldered for a day. 199 degrees fahrenheit after 18 hours. Discover is taking this seriously and their response has been great. They are in contact with the cell manufacturer to find a "best practices" for the clean up of the room. They also have said that this is a first for them (lucky me). I'm just curious how rare or common LiFePO 4 explosions are? I've never heard of one in the context of residential storage. This has me pretty freaked out. Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri May 3 11:31:40 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 08:31:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discover AES explosion! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <77b8a336ebf33c6d5875863b50b5ba35@sti.net> Never heard of one with LFP. The cobalt and Magnesium Lions are definitely out there. Was this a 6650 model Michael? Going to be fun times doing a failure analysis on this one. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-05-03 8:21 am, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Two days ago, one of my clients came home to find the door of his > powershed blown off its hinges and a smoldering Discover AES. The case > was still intact and the entire room is coated with a fine > graphite-like powder. The fire department was unable/unwilling to do > anything to cool the battery down and it smoldered for a day. 199 > degrees fahrenheit after 18 hours. Discover is taking this seriously > and their response has been great. They are in contact with the cell > manufacturer to find a "best practices" for the clean up of the room. > They also have said that this is a first for them (lucky me). > > I'm just curious how rare or common LiFePO 4 explosions are? I've never > heard of one in the context of residential storage. This has me pretty > freaked out. > > Michael Morningstar > > Morningstar Electric Inc > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > CSLB 1116835 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Fri May 3 11:38:25 2024 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Fri, 3 May 2024 08:38:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discover AES explosion! In-Reply-To: <77b8a336ebf33c6d5875863b50b5ba35@sti.net> References: <77b8a336ebf33c6d5875863b50b5ba35@sti.net> Message-ID: Yes, it is a 6650. It's neighbor survived, we think. Might be able to pull data off it or the Lynk II On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 8:33 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Never heard of one with LFP. The cobalt and Magnesium Lions are definitely > out there. Was this a 6650 model Michael? > Going to be fun times doing a failure analysis on this one. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2024-05-03 8:21 am, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Two days ago, one of my clients came home to find the door of his > powershed blown off its hinges and a smoldering Discover AES. The case was > still intact and the entire room is coated with a fine graphite-like > powder. The fire department was unable/unwilling to do anything to cool the > battery down and it smoldered for a day. 199 degrees fahrenheit after 18 > hours. Discover is taking this seriously and their response has been great. > They are in contact with the cell manufacturer to find a "best practices" > for the clean up of the room. They also have said that this is a first for > them (lucky me). > > I'm just curious how rare or common LiFePO 4 explosions are? I've never > heard of one in the context of residential storage. This has me pretty > freaked out. > > > > Michael Morningstar > > > > Morningstar Electric Inc > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > CSLB 1116835 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri May 3 12:14:23 2024 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 3 May 2024 10:14:23 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discover Xanbus SOC jumpy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's 6 stack of Discover 42-48-6650. Reported voltage dives when SOC goes down, but it's not real, the Schneider doesn't see the same dip in voltage so it appears to be a communication issue. Thanks On Fri, May 3, 2024, 8:28 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Which model? Do you see the same dips in voltage? Probably yes. > Are all the batts the same firmware? > The AES dashboard can be useful for finding a differing module. > No I have not seen this and only have had one bad battery that was > replaced by AES. Yes check all wiring. Good Luck! > > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2024-05-03 6:54 am, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > I have a system that suddenly started seeing quite a few SOC drops and > blips, causing generator starts. > > Here is an example SOC chart: > > [image: image.png] > > I plan to head up and apply a firmware update on the batteries, check > cabling etc but Im curious if anyone has encountered/solved this issue. > > Much appreciated. > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: c599bd74.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 29387 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 4fbcd6ad.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 20902 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 45533 bytes Desc: not available URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri May 3 12:23:39 2024 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight) Date: Fri, 3 May 2024 09:23:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discover AES explosion! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26DCB0A3-A176-4557-949E-8332A9778148@starlightsolar.com> Hi Michael, For 11 years I’ve been in the Li battery business. We formerly designed and installed over a hundred Li battery based systems, mostly mobile installations but UPS and off-grid as well. Since 2018, we no longer do installations. Currently we sell our own Li-ion brand with many thousands sold and in use. We have not had any fire or explosion claims. Most Li batteries sold in the US are not UL1973 or ETL certified. Many batteries are very cheaply made to have the lowest price. Based on my experience I consider any battery not certified as potentially dangerous. I don’t know if Discover is certified and make no statement about them. An important question is what will an insurance company do if there is a claim and the product you install is not certified to these high safety standards? Worth considering. Larry Crutcher Starlight Power Systems On May 3, 2024, at 8:21 AM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: Two days ago, one of my clients came home to find the door of his powershed blown off its hinges and a smoldering Discover AES. The case was still intact and the entire room is coated with a fine graphite-like powder. The fire department was unable/unwilling to do anything to cool the battery down and it smoldered for a day. 199 degrees fahrenheit after 18 hours. Discover is taking this seriously and their response has been great. They are in contact with the cell manufacturer to find a "best practices" for the clean up of the room. They also have said that this is a first for them (lucky me). I'm just curious how rare or common LiFePO 4 explosions are? I've never heard of one in the context of residential storage. This has me pretty freaked out. Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri May 3 12:47:14 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 09:47:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discover AES explosion! In-Reply-To: <26DCB0A3-A176-4557-949E-8332A9778148@starlightsolar.com> References: <26DCB0A3-A176-4557-949E-8332A9778148@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <4e7adba644cc49af40b9ca2a20ebb76f@sti.net> The 6650 definitely meets all the UL's, ETLs, and UN's. Probably the first one to do this and since Michael said that it is a first for Discover, the jury is out until an FA is complete. Good points by you Larry, but not valid for many thousands of Discover AES 6650s. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-05-03 9:23 am, Starlight via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Michael, > > For 11 years I've been in the Li battery business. We formerly designed > and installed over a hundred Li battery based systems, mostly mobile > installations but UPS and off-grid as well. Since 2018, we no longer do > installations. Currently we sell our own Li-ion brand with many > thousands sold and in use. We have not had any fire or explosion > claims. > > Most Li batteries sold in the US are not UL1973 or ETL certified. Many > batteries are very cheaply made to have the lowest price. Based on my > experience I consider any battery not certified as potentially > dangerous. I don't know if Discover is certified and make no statement > about them. > > An important question is what will an insurance company do if there is > a claim and the product you install is not certified to these high > safety standards? Worth considering. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Power Systems > > On May 3, 2024, at 8:21 AM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Two days ago, one of my clients came home to find the door of his > powershed blown off its hinges and a smoldering Discover AES. The case > was still intact and the entire room is coated with a fine > graphite-like powder. The fire department was unable/unwilling to do > anything to cool the battery down and it smoldered for a day. 199 > degrees fahrenheit after 18 hours. Discover is taking this seriously > and their response has been great. They are in contact with the cell > manufacturer to find a "best practices" for the clean up of the room. > They also have said that this is a first for them (lucky me). > > I'm just curious how rare or common LiFePO 4 explosions are? I've never > heard of one in the context of residential storage. This has me pretty > freaked out. > > Michael Morningstar > > Morningstar Electric Inc > PO Box 1494 > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > 530-921-0560 > CSLB 1116835 > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Fri May 3 12:53:20 2024 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Fri, 3 May 2024 12:53:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] IRA Domestic Content Bonus Credit Message-ID: Wrenches, I'm wondering if any of you have thoughts/experience with the additional 10% ITC that the Inflation Reduction Act allocates for "domestic content". I'm doing some googling but not really sure what equipment (racking, panels, inverters, BOM, etc) we would need to install in order to qualify for this, and what the parameters are to qualify something as 'domestic content'. If anyone has rough thoughts or information sources to share I'm all ears... Adam Adam Katzman (he/him) Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator www.AutonomousEnergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Fri May 3 13:24:47 2024 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent) Date: Fri, 3 May 2024 10:24:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discover Xanbus SOC jumpy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mac, I have a system that does this (or something similar) with all of the Insight data a few times every day. I'm pretty sure it is lost data resulting from communications drop outs. Internet to the site is via StarLink. If you are only seeing this on the SOC data there might be a problem with the Xanbus connection to the battery monitor. Since the SOC returns to the correct value for the next data packet, I'm pretty sure that there is nothing wrong with the battery monitor. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 5/3/2024 6:54 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > I have a system that suddenly started seeing quite a few SOC drops and > blips, causing generator starts. > > Here is an example SOC chart: > > image.png > > I plan to head up and apply a firmware update on the batteries, check > cabling etc but Im curious if anyone has encountered/solved this issue. > > Much appreciated. > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 45533 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri May 3 13:30:06 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 10:30:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discover Xanbus SOC jumpy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kent, Battery monitor is internal to 6650 battery. No bat mon! Probably as you said the xanbus comms need a look as Mac said. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-05-03 10:24 am, Kent via RE-wrenches wrote: > Mac, > > I have a system that does this (or something similar) with all of the > Insight data a few times every day. I'm pretty sure it is lost data > resulting from communications drop outs. Internet to the site is via > StarLink. If you are only seeing this on the SOC data there might be a > problem with the Xanbus connection to the battery monitor. Since the > SOC returns to the correct value for the next data packet, I'm pretty > sure that there is nothing wrong with the battery monitor. Kent > Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > On 5/3/2024 6:54 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> I have a system that suddenly started seeing quite a few SOC drops and >> blips, causing generator starts. >> >> Here is an example SOC chart: >> >> I plan to head up and apply a firmware update on the batteries, check >> cabling etc but Im curious if anyone has encountered/solved this >> issue. >> >> Much appreciated. >> -- >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 45533 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri May 3 15:41:14 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 12:41:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discover Xanbus SOC jumpy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <873e96ec21088cf0afdc44950a5ff9bd@sti.net> You probably checked historical events and analysis below. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-05-03 10:30 am, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Kent, Battery monitor is internal to 6650 battery. No bat mon! > Probably as you said the xanbus comms need a look as Mac said. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On 2024-05-03 10:24 am, Kent via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Mac, > > I have a system that does this (or something similar) with all of the > Insight data a few times every day. I'm pretty sure it is lost data > resulting from communications drop outs. Internet to the site is via > StarLink. If you are only seeing this on the SOC data there might be a > problem with the Xanbus connection to the battery monitor. Since the > SOC returns to the correct value for the next data packet, I'm pretty > sure that there is nothing wrong with the battery monitor. Kent > Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > On 5/3/2024 6:54 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > I have a system that suddenly started seeing quite a few SOC drops and > blips, causing generator starts. > > Here is an example SOC chart: > > I plan to head up and apply a firmware update on the batteries, check > cabling etc but Im curious if anyone has encountered/solved this issue. > > Much appreciated. > -- > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 6c1613c0.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 77200 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri May 3 18:13:31 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 3 May 2024 18:13:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system In-Reply-To: References: <069aafe04cd3f594bcb40914cdd38dfd@sti.net> Message-ID: For this application I was originally thinking about a 48V inverter with 120V output, but there are not many options in the size range I was considering. It hit me that I could potentially get a 120/240V split-phase inverter and run the DC converter from one leg and the 120V loads from the other leg. The Sol-Ark 8K would probably be the right size for this application. Despite there being no 240V loads, they "could" add them in the future if needed. I know about imbalance issues with the 12k, but have not heard this same feedback about the 8k, so please let me know if you know otherwise. I really doubt there will be enough imbalance here to cause issues. The biggest load on the DC side is a tiny 12V DC pump and the largest load on the AC side will be the new refrigerator, or maybe a big ceiling fan starting up. The inductive loads are almost negligible. Really the only reason I want an inverter this large is for the charger capacity. The owner wants a 9.6kWh LiPo battery minimum, so I want a sizable charger. BUT, the client would need to replace their 120V portable generator with a split-phase unit. That could be a sticking point taking me back to a 120V inverter. I was hoping for an all-in-one for this particular job, but the only one I can find that is 48Vdc and 120Vac is the EG4 6500EX-48. At the price point they offer it, I guess it can't hurt to try! I can even have a spare on the shelf for less in total than the cost of a Victron inverter charger and separate charge controller, and still have money to spare. I have been dabbling into the EG4 brand, mostly with clients that went ahead and bought EG4 batteries before they ever met me, and I haven't had any real issues other than battery to inverter closed loop comms. It's too early to say I'm impressed, but the prices are in the too-good-to-be-true category. I don't want to get off topic here with batteries and manufacturer reliability, but I wanted to mention the EG4 6500EX-48, which seems like perfect specs for this job. And... I know... someone is probably thinking that we're up to a 9.6kWh battery with a small 120V generator, and that's probably not a good match. I get that, but the client expects the PV to handle all of their needs with the generator only serving as an emergency backup. I have alerted them to the potential mismatch. I still want a sizeable charger in case they upgrade their generator for faster battery recharges. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 1:52 PM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jason, > Just using the converter works fine. They are considered a battery > charger or a regulated power supply. I am currently running that way now > with the battery cables going nowhere. I was thinking of putting the > battery back in the system just for triple redundancy when my inverter hits > low battery cutoff voltage on a cold winter night and no fuel for the > generator (or it won't start). > My Iota DLS puts out a regulated 13.4 volts up to 30 amps. > > John > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:25 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Ah ha! I didn't consider using a small 12V battery with a charger. I was >> thinking of just using a 120V -> 12V converter to handle the DC loads. Is >> the 12V battery really necessary, or can I just power the DC loads directly >> with a converter? If I just have lights and fans on the DC system, the load >> should be pretty minimal. >> >> I could use a separate 12V battery, but I would like to eliminate that >> cost and complexity if possible. >> >> >> And yeah, I am not considering this a money making opportunity. It's >> really just a challenge to ward off boredom from the daily grind. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:01 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Jason, >>> I have a customer with the same situation except he already has a 12 V >>> VFX inverter, He has a sunfrost fridge and other small loads with a very >>> fancy custom control board >>> originally set up to handle AC and DC systems. We are adding a lot more >>> solar and I was considering a dual battery system but the owner didn't like >>> that idea. We are going with and Iota 12v power supply (i use one at my >>> house for my sunfrost) to power up all his DC loads and will be adding a >>> large 48 V battery bank and over 4Kw of solar using a VFXR3648 directly in >>> place of the 12V inverter. He complained that the existing inverter would >>> not handle all his current AC loads very well. My own house is fully wired >>> for 12VDC as well as AC (lots of #10 copper not being used) and I have been >>> considering getting a small LFP 12V battery to put back on by DC System. >>> Then use the Iota as a secondary charging method with some of my large >>> stash of older modules hooked up for 12V direct with C40 charge controller >>> to recreate my original system just for kicks. I'm only using DC for my >>> Sunfrost and one "emergency light" in the livingroom right now. For your >>> customer, a small LFP 12v battery (approximately $500 or less) to replace >>> his old battery bankm and more larger ones for the new AC side with 48V >>> inverter fed by his generator or through an Iota 48 V charger ifusing a >>> smaller non charging inverter. Unlike Dave, I like these challenges. Maybe >>> thats why I never seem to make money.!! >>> >>> John Blittersdorf >>> offgridvermont.com >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 7:22 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Fortunately, the owner is pretty handy and is willing to live with any >>>> negative consequences. That said, I want to offer him something as simple >>>> and bulletproof as possible. I am walking into this with eyes wide open, >>>> for sure. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:47 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >>>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> >>>>> Not being helpful but I walk away from these. It will come back to you. >>>>> >>>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>>> text 209 813 0060* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 2024-04-23 2:40 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I have an off-grid client who is working on replacing old equipment at >>>>> a cabin. He has a lot of 12 volt distribution in the house for lighting, >>>>> fans, and a 12 volt refrigerator. He also has 120 volt AC loads that run >>>>> through a separate distribution panel where the only source is a 2000 Watt >>>>> Honda generator. There is no inverter present. The batteries are charged >>>>> through a Trace C40. >>>>> >>>>> He currently has a few ancient solar panels and a struggling Bank of >>>>> AGM batteries. It's time for an upgrade. I can easily supply enough PV >>>>> power for what he needs. He currently has a 9 kilowatt hour battery >>>>> capacity that he was happy with when the batteries operated optimally. >>>>> Nonetheless, I would probably future-proof him with a 10 to 15 kilowatt >>>>> hour LiPo to double or triple his usable capacity. >>>>> >>>>> For convenience, obviously it would be nice to have an inverter to >>>>> eliminate or reduce the generator requirement. But he seems committed to >>>>> keeping his 12 volt distribution because it would be costly to replace >>>>> fixtures. I think he would consider replacing the 12 volt refrigerator if >>>>> he has an inverter. >>>>> >>>>> He definitely wants LiPo batteries. >>>>> >>>>> I don't like the idea of 12 volt direct from a battery plus connecting >>>>> an inverter to that same battery. It is going to be hard to measure and >>>>> monitor things. >>>>> >>>>> I am thinking about using a 48 volt battery with a single phase 120 >>>>> volt inverter, getting him to change to a 120 volt refrigerator, and using >>>>> a DC converter to give him somewhere in the range of 100 amps at 12 volts >>>>> for his existing DC lighting and fan loads. Is this a bad idea? Should I >>>>> stick with a 12 volt battery system? He does have a tiny 12 volt pressure >>>>> pump which might be an issue for the converter. I'm not sure. I am a bit >>>>> worried about the efficiency loss and capacity of DC converters and not >>>>> sure how to size it. >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Fri May 3 18:27:21 2024 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Fri, 3 May 2024 18:27:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] IRA Domestic Content Bonus Credit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004b01da9da9$111b8120$33528360$@mindspring.com> Adam Solar Panels. Not sure any solar panel company is making panels in the US that meet the requirements as of today. I get emails from some but they state they are several months away . Seems to be a moving target that at times resembles a shell game. Qcell, Silfab and one or two more are close. Peter Giroux American Solar From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of AE Solar via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, May 3, 2024 12:53 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: AE Solar Subject: [RE-wrenches] IRA Domestic Content Bonus Credit Wrenches, I'm wondering if any of you have thoughts/experience with the additional 10% ITC that the Inflation Reduction Act allocates for "domestic content". I'm doing some googling but not really sure what equipment (racking, panels, inverters, BOM, etc) we would need to install in order to qualify for this, and what the parameters are to qualify something as 'domestic content'. If anyone has rough thoughts or information sources to share I'm all ears... Adam Adam Katzman (he/him) Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator www.AutonomousEnergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Fri May 3 19:12:38 2024 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Fri, 3 May 2024 16:12:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system In-Reply-To: References: <069aafe04cd3f594bcb40914cdd38dfd@sti.net> Message-ID: I think SolArk makes an 8K 120V-only version David On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 3:13 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > For this application I was originally thinking about a 48V inverter with > 120V output, but there are not many options in the size range I was > considering. It hit me that I could potentially get a 120/240V split-phase > inverter and run the DC converter from one leg and the 120V loads from the > other leg. The Sol-Ark 8K would probably be the right size for this > application. Despite there being no 240V loads, they "could" add them in > the future if needed. I know about imbalance issues with the 12k, but have > not heard this same feedback about the 8k, so please let me know if you > know otherwise. > > I really doubt there will be enough imbalance here to cause issues. The > biggest load on the DC side is a tiny 12V DC pump and the largest load on > the AC side will be the new refrigerator, or maybe a big ceiling fan > starting up. The inductive loads are almost negligible. Really the only > reason I want an inverter this large is for the charger capacity. The owner > wants a 9.6kWh LiPo battery minimum, so I want a sizable charger. > > BUT, the client would need to replace their 120V portable generator with a > split-phase unit. That could be a sticking point taking me back to a 120V > inverter. > > I was hoping for an all-in-one for this particular job, but the only one I > can find that is 48Vdc and 120Vac is the EG4 6500EX-48. At the price point > they offer it, I guess it can't hurt to try! I can even have a spare on the > shelf for less in total than the cost of a Victron inverter charger and > separate charge controller, and still have money to spare. I have been > dabbling into the EG4 brand, mostly with clients that went ahead and bought > EG4 batteries before they ever met me, and I haven't had any real issues > other than battery to inverter closed loop comms. It's too early to say I'm > impressed, but the prices are in the too-good-to-be-true category. I don't > want to get off topic here with batteries and manufacturer reliability, but > I wanted to mention the EG4 6500EX-48, which seems like perfect specs for > this job. > > > And... I know... someone is probably thinking that we're up to a 9.6kWh > battery with a small 120V generator, and that's probably not a good match. > I get that, but the client expects the PV to handle all of their needs with > the generator only serving as an emergency backup. I have alerted them to > the potential mismatch. I still want a sizeable charger in case they > upgrade their generator for faster battery recharges. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 1:52 PM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Jason, >> Just using the converter works fine. They are considered a battery >> charger or a regulated power supply. I am currently running that way now >> with the battery cables going nowhere. I was thinking of putting the >> battery back in the system just for triple redundancy when my inverter hits >> low battery cutoff voltage on a cold winter night and no fuel for the >> generator (or it won't start). >> My Iota DLS puts out a regulated 13.4 volts up to 30 amps. >> >> John >> >> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:25 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Ah ha! I didn't consider using a small 12V battery with a charger. I was >>> thinking of just using a 120V -> 12V converter to handle the DC loads. Is >>> the 12V battery really necessary, or can I just power the DC loads directly >>> with a converter? If I just have lights and fans on the DC system, the load >>> should be pretty minimal. >>> >>> I could use a separate 12V battery, but I would like to eliminate that >>> cost and complexity if possible. >>> >>> >>> And yeah, I am not considering this a money making opportunity. It's >>> really just a challenge to ward off boredom from the daily grind. >>> >> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:01 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Jason, >>>> I have a customer with the same situation except he already has a 12 >>>> V VFX inverter, He has a sunfrost fridge and other small loads with a very >>>> fancy custom control board >>>> originally set up to handle AC and DC systems. We are adding a lot >>>> more solar and I was considering a dual battery system but the owner didn't >>>> like that idea. We are going with and Iota 12v power supply (i use one at >>>> my house for my sunfrost) to power up all his DC loads and will be adding a >>>> large 48 V battery bank and over 4Kw of solar using a VFXR3648 directly in >>>> place of the 12V inverter. He complained that the existing inverter would >>>> not handle all his current AC loads very well. My own house is fully wired >>>> for 12VDC as well as AC (lots of #10 copper not being used) and I have been >>>> considering getting a small LFP 12V battery to put back on by DC System. >>>> Then use the Iota as a secondary charging method with some of my large >>>> stash of older modules hooked up for 12V direct with C40 charge controller >>>> to recreate my original system just for kicks. I'm only using DC for my >>>> Sunfrost and one "emergency light" in the livingroom right now. For your >>>> customer, a small LFP 12v battery (approximately $500 or less) to replace >>>> his old battery bankm and more larger ones for the new AC side with 48V >>>> inverter fed by his generator or through an Iota 48 V charger ifusing a >>>> smaller non charging inverter. Unlike Dave, I like these challenges. Maybe >>>> thats why I never seem to make money.!! >>>> >>>> John Blittersdorf >>>> offgridvermont.com >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 7:22 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Fortunately, the owner is pretty handy and is willing to live with any >>>>> negative consequences. That said, I want to offer him something as simple >>>>> and bulletproof as possible. I am walking into this with eyes wide open, >>>>> for sure. >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:47 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >>>>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Not being helpful but I walk away from these. It will come back to you. >>>>>> >>>>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>>>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>>>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>>>> text 209 813 0060* >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 2024-04-23 2:40 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I have an off-grid client who is working on replacing old equipment >>>>>> at a cabin. He has a lot of 12 volt distribution in the house for lighting, >>>>>> fans, and a 12 volt refrigerator. He also has 120 volt AC loads that run >>>>>> through a separate distribution panel where the only source is a 2000 Watt >>>>>> Honda generator. There is no inverter present. The batteries are charged >>>>>> through a Trace C40. >>>>>> >>>>>> He currently has a few ancient solar panels and a struggling Bank of >>>>>> AGM batteries. It's time for an upgrade. I can easily supply enough PV >>>>>> power for what he needs. He currently has a 9 kilowatt hour battery >>>>>> capacity that he was happy with when the batteries operated optimally. >>>>>> Nonetheless, I would probably future-proof him with a 10 to 15 kilowatt >>>>>> hour LiPo to double or triple his usable capacity. >>>>>> >>>>>> For convenience, obviously it would be nice to have an inverter to >>>>>> eliminate or reduce the generator requirement. But he seems committed to >>>>>> keeping his 12 volt distribution because it would be costly to replace >>>>>> fixtures. I think he would consider replacing the 12 volt refrigerator if >>>>>> he has an inverter. >>>>>> >>>>>> He definitely wants LiPo batteries. >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't like the idea of 12 volt direct from a battery plus >>>>>> connecting an inverter to that same battery. It is going to be hard to >>>>>> measure and monitor things. >>>>>> >>>>>> I am thinking about using a 48 volt battery with a single phase 120 >>>>>> volt inverter, getting him to change to a 120 volt refrigerator, and using >>>>>> a DC converter to give him somewhere in the range of 100 amps at 12 volts >>>>>> for his existing DC lighting and fan loads. Is this a bad idea? Should I >>>>>> stick with a 12 volt battery system? He does have a tiny 12 volt pressure >>>>>> pump which might be an issue for the converter. I'm not sure. I am a bit >>>>>> worried about the efficiency loss and capacity of DC converters and not >>>>>> sure how to size it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tom.mccalmont at pairedpower.com Fri May 3 19:19:55 2024 From: tom.mccalmont at pairedpower.com (Tom McCalmont) Date: Fri, 3 May 2024 16:19:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system In-Reply-To: References: <069aafe04cd3f594bcb40914cdd38dfd@sti.net> Message-ID: David is correct. We have some experience with Sol-Ark’s inverter, and it’s a good product. However, be aware that you can configure it either as a 120V inverter with a max. output of about 5 kW or as a 240V inverter with a max. output of about 8 kW. However, it does NOT do split-phase, meaning if you configure it for 240V, it cannot run loads that require a neutral. Tom McCalmont Paired Power > On May 3, 2024, at 4:12 PM, david quattro via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I think SolArk makes an 8K 120V-only version > David > > > > > On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 3:13 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> For this application I was originally thinking about a 48V inverter with 120V output, but there are not many options in the size range I was considering. It hit me that I could potentially get a 120/240V split-phase inverter and run the DC converter from one leg and the 120V loads from the other leg. The Sol-Ark 8K would probably be the right size for this application. Despite there being no 240V loads, they "could" add them in the future if needed. I know about imbalance issues with the 12k, but have not heard this same feedback about the 8k, so please let me know if you know otherwise. >> >> I really doubt there will be enough imbalance here to cause issues. The biggest load on the DC side is a tiny 12V DC pump and the largest load on the AC side will be the new refrigerator, or maybe a big ceiling fan starting up. The inductive loads are almost negligible. Really the only reason I want an inverter this large is for the charger capacity. The owner wants a 9.6kWh LiPo battery minimum, so I want a sizable charger. >> >> BUT, the client would need to replace their 120V portable generator with a split-phase unit. That could be a sticking point taking me back to a 120V inverter. >> >> I was hoping for an all-in-one for this particular job, but the only one I can find that is 48Vdc and 120Vac is the EG4 6500EX-48. At the price point they offer it, I guess it can't hurt to try! I can even have a spare on the shelf for less in total than the cost of a Victron inverter charger and separate charge controller, and still have money to spare. I have been dabbling into the EG4 brand, mostly with clients that went ahead and bought EG4 batteries before they ever met me, and I haven't had any real issues other than battery to inverter closed loop comms. It's too early to say I'm impressed, but the prices are in the too-good-to-be-true category. I don't want to get off topic here with batteries and manufacturer reliability, but I wanted to mention the EG4 6500EX-48, which seems like perfect specs for this job. >> >> >> And... I know... someone is probably thinking that we're up to a 9.6kWh battery with a small 120V generator, and that's probably not a good match. I get that, but the client expects the PV to handle all of their needs with the generator only serving as an emergency backup. I have alerted them to the potential mismatch. I still want a sizeable charger in case they upgrade their generator for faster battery recharges. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 1:52 PM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> Jason, >>> Just using the converter works fine. They are considered a battery charger or a regulated power supply. I am currently running that way now with the battery cables going nowhere. I was thinking of putting the battery back in the system just for triple redundancy when my inverter hits low battery cutoff voltage on a cold winter night and no fuel for the generator (or it won't start). >>> My Iota DLS puts out a regulated 13.4 volts up to 30 amps. >>> >>> John >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:25 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>> Ah ha! I didn't consider using a small 12V battery with a charger. I was thinking of just using a 120V -> 12V converter to handle the DC loads. Is the 12V battery really necessary, or can I just power the DC loads directly with a converter? If I just have lights and fans on the DC system, the load should be pretty minimal. >>>> >>>> I could use a separate 12V battery, but I would like to eliminate that cost and complexity if possible. >>>> >>>> >>>> And yeah, I am not considering this a money making opportunity. It's really just a challenge to ward off boredom from the daily grind. >> >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:01 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>> Jason, >>>>> I have a customer with the same situation except he already has a 12 V VFX inverter, He has a sunfrost fridge and other small loads with a very fancy custom control board >>>>> originally set up to handle AC and DC systems. We are adding a lot more solar and I was considering a dual battery system but the owner didn't like that idea. We are going with and Iota 12v power supply (i use one at my house for my sunfrost) to power up all his DC loads and will be adding a large 48 V battery bank and over 4Kw of solar using a VFXR3648 directly in place of the 12V inverter. He complained that the existing inverter would not handle all his current AC loads very well. My own house is fully wired for 12VDC as well as AC (lots of #10 copper not being used) and I have been considering getting a small LFP 12V battery to put back on by DC System. Then use the Iota as a secondary charging method with some of my large stash of older modules hooked up for 12V direct with C40 charge controller to recreate my original system just for kicks. I'm only using DC for my Sunfrost and one "emergency light" in the livingroom right now. For your customer, a small LFP 12v battery (approximately $500 or less) to replace his old battery bankm and more larger ones for the new AC side with 48V inverter fed by his generator or through an Iota 48 V charger ifusing a smaller non charging inverter. Unlike Dave, I like these challenges. Maybe thats why I never seem to make money.!! >>>>> >>>>> John Blittersdorf >>>>> offgridvermont.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 7:22 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>> Fortunately, the owner is pretty handy and is willing to live with any negative consequences. That said, I want to offer him something as simple and bulletproof as possible. I am walking into this with eyes wide open, for sure. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:47 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>>> Not being helpful but I walk away from these. It will come back to you. >>>>>>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>>>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>>>>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>>>>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>>>>> text 209 813 0060 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 2024-04-23 2:40 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have an off-grid client who is working on replacing old equipment at a cabin. He has a lot of 12 volt distribution in the house for lighting, fans, and a 12 volt refrigerator. He also has 120 volt AC loads that run through a separate distribution panel where the only source is a 2000 Watt Honda generator. There is no inverter present. The batteries are charged through a Trace C40. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> He currently has a few ancient solar panels and a struggling Bank of AGM batteries. It's time for an upgrade. I can easily supply enough PV power for what he needs. He currently has a 9 kilowatt hour battery capacity that he was happy with when the batteries operated optimally. Nonetheless, I would probably future-proof him with a 10 to 15 kilowatt hour LiPo to double or triple his usable capacity. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> For convenience, obviously it would be nice to have an inverter to eliminate or reduce the generator requirement. But he seems committed to keeping his 12 volt distribution because it would be costly to replace fixtures. I think he would consider replacing the 12 volt refrigerator if he has an inverter. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> He definitely wants LiPo batteries. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I don't like the idea of 12 volt direct from a battery plus connecting an inverter to that same battery. It is going to be hard to measure and monitor things. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am thinking about using a 48 volt battery with a single phase 120 volt inverter, getting him to change to a 120 volt refrigerator, and using a DC converter to give him somewhere in the range of 100 amps at 12 volts for his existing DC lighting and fan loads. Is this a bad idea? Should I stick with a 12 volt battery system? He does have a tiny 12 volt pressure pump which might be an issue for the converter. I'm not sure. I am a bit worried about the efficiency loss and capacity of DC converters and not sure how to size it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri May 3 19:50:54 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 3 May 2024 16:50:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7035B78B-1C0B-4FE5-8AAA-43E908C1B588@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Fri May 3 20:03:59 2024 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Fri, 3 May 2024 17:03:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system In-Reply-To: <7035B78B-1C0B-4FE5-8AAA-43E908C1B588@gmail.com> References: <7035B78B-1C0B-4FE5-8AAA-43E908C1B588@gmail.com> Message-ID: Might only be available for Latin American markets, I don’t know. Page 16 https://www.sol-ark.com/wp-content/uploads/Sol-Ark_ProductCatalog.pdf On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 4:50 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Maybe the new 5kw 120v unit is the 8kw at 120v? > > Jay > > On May 3, 2024, at 4:22 PM, Tom McCalmont via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > David is correct. We have some experience with Sol-Ark’s inverter, and > it’s a good product. However, be aware that you can configure it either as > a 120V inverter with a max. output of about 5 kW or as a 240V inverter with > a max. output of about 8 kW. However, it does NOT do split-phase, meaning > if you configure it for 240V, it cannot run loads that require a neutral. > > > Tom McCalmont > Paired Power > > > On May 3, 2024, at 4:12 PM, david quattro via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > I think SolArk makes an 8K 120V-only version > David > > > > > On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 3:13 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> For this application I was originally thinking about a 48V inverter with >> 120V output, but there are not many options in the size range I was >> considering. It hit me that I could potentially get a 120/240V split-phase >> inverter and run the DC converter from one leg and the 120V loads from the >> other leg. The Sol-Ark 8K would probably be the right size for this >> application. Despite there being no 240V loads, they "could" add them in >> the future if needed. I know about imbalance issues with the 12k, but have >> not heard this same feedback about the 8k, so please let me know if you >> know otherwise. >> >> I really doubt there will be enough imbalance here to cause issues. The >> biggest load on the DC side is a tiny 12V DC pump and the largest load on >> the AC side will be the new refrigerator, or maybe a big ceiling fan >> starting up. The inductive loads are almost negligible. Really the only >> reason I want an inverter this large is for the charger capacity. The owner >> wants a 9.6kWh LiPo battery minimum, so I want a sizable charger. >> >> BUT, the client would need to replace their 120V portable generator with >> a split-phase unit. That could be a sticking point taking me back to a 120V >> inverter. >> >> I was hoping for an all-in-one for this particular job, but the only one >> I can find that is 48Vdc and 120Vac is the EG4 6500EX-48. At the price >> point they offer it, I guess it can't hurt to try! I can even have a spare >> on the shelf for less in total than the cost of a Victron inverter charger >> and separate charge controller, and still have money to spare. I have been >> dabbling into the EG4 brand, mostly with clients that went ahead and bought >> EG4 batteries before they ever met me, and I haven't had any real issues >> other than battery to inverter closed loop comms. It's too early to say I'm >> impressed, but the prices are in the too-good-to-be-true category. I don't >> want to get off topic here with batteries and manufacturer reliability, but >> I wanted to mention the EG4 6500EX-48, which seems like perfect specs for >> this job. >> >> >> And... I know... someone is probably thinking that we're up to a 9.6kWh >> battery with a small 120V generator, and that's probably not a good match. >> I get that, but the client expects the PV to handle all of their needs with >> the generator only serving as an emergency backup. I have alerted them to >> the potential mismatch. I still want a sizeable charger in case they >> upgrade their generator for faster battery recharges. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 1:52 PM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Jason, >>> Just using the converter works fine. They are considered a battery >>> charger or a regulated power supply. I am currently running that way now >>> with the battery cables going nowhere. I was thinking of putting the >>> battery back in the system just for triple redundancy when my inverter hits >>> low battery cutoff voltage on a cold winter night and no fuel for the >>> generator (or it won't start). >>> My Iota DLS puts out a regulated 13.4 volts up to 30 amps. >>> >>> John >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:25 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Ah ha! I didn't consider using a small 12V battery with a charger. I >>>> was thinking of just using a 120V -> 12V converter to handle the DC loads. >>>> Is the 12V battery really necessary, or can I just power the DC loads >>>> directly with a converter? If I just have lights and fans on the DC system, >>>> the load should be pretty minimal. >>>> >>>> I could use a separate 12V battery, but I would like to eliminate that >>>> cost and complexity if possible. >>>> >>>> >>>> And yeah, I am not considering this a money making opportunity. It's >>>> really just a challenge to ward off boredom from the daily grind. >>>> >>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:01 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Jason, >>>>> I have a customer with the same situation except he already has a 12 >>>>> V VFX inverter, He has a sunfrost fridge and other small loads with a very >>>>> fancy custom control board >>>>> originally set up to handle AC and DC systems. We are adding a lot >>>>> more solar and I was considering a dual battery system but the owner didn't >>>>> like that idea. We are going with and Iota 12v power supply (i use one at >>>>> my house for my sunfrost) to power up all his DC loads and will be adding a >>>>> large 48 V battery bank and over 4Kw of solar using a VFXR3648 directly in >>>>> place of the 12V inverter. He complained that the existing inverter would >>>>> not handle all his current AC loads very well. My own house is fully wired >>>>> for 12VDC as well as AC (lots of #10 copper not being used) and I have been >>>>> considering getting a small LFP 12V battery to put back on by DC System. >>>>> Then use the Iota as a secondary charging method with some of my large >>>>> stash of older modules hooked up for 12V direct with C40 charge controller >>>>> to recreate my original system just for kicks. I'm only using DC for my >>>>> Sunfrost and one "emergency light" in the livingroom right now. For your >>>>> customer, a small LFP 12v battery (approximately $500 or less) to replace >>>>> his old battery bankm and more larger ones for the new AC side with 48V >>>>> inverter fed by his generator or through an Iota 48 V charger ifusing a >>>>> smaller non charging inverter. Unlike Dave, I like these challenges. Maybe >>>>> thats why I never seem to make money.!! >>>>> >>>>> John Blittersdorf >>>>> offgridvermont.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 7:22 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Fortunately, the owner is pretty handy and is willing to live with >>>>>> any negative consequences. That said, I want to offer him something as >>>>>> simple and bulletproof as possible. I am walking into this with eyes wide >>>>>> open, for sure. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:47 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >>>>>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Not being helpful but I walk away from these. It will come back to you. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>>>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>>>>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>>>>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>>>>> text 209 813 0060* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 2024-04-23 2:40 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have an off-grid client who is working on replacing old equipment >>>>>>> at a cabin. He has a lot of 12 volt distribution in the house for lighting, >>>>>>> fans, and a 12 volt refrigerator. He also has 120 volt AC loads that run >>>>>>> through a separate distribution panel where the only source is a 2000 Watt >>>>>>> Honda generator. There is no inverter present. The batteries are charged >>>>>>> through a Trace C40. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> He currently has a few ancient solar panels and a struggling Bank of >>>>>>> AGM batteries. It's time for an upgrade. I can easily supply enough PV >>>>>>> power for what he needs. He currently has a 9 kilowatt hour battery >>>>>>> capacity that he was happy with when the batteries operated optimally. >>>>>>> Nonetheless, I would probably future-proof him with a 10 to 15 kilowatt >>>>>>> hour LiPo to double or triple his usable capacity. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For convenience, obviously it would be nice to have an inverter to >>>>>>> eliminate or reduce the generator requirement. But he seems committed to >>>>>>> keeping his 12 volt distribution because it would be costly to replace >>>>>>> fixtures. I think he would consider replacing the 12 volt refrigerator if >>>>>>> he has an inverter. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> He definitely wants LiPo batteries. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't like the idea of 12 volt direct from a battery plus >>>>>>> connecting an inverter to that same battery. It is going to be hard to >>>>>>> measure and monitor things. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am thinking about using a 48 volt battery with a single phase 120 >>>>>>> volt inverter, getting him to change to a 120 volt refrigerator, and using >>>>>>> a DC converter to give him somewhere in the range of 100 amps at 12 volts >>>>>>> for his existing DC lighting and fan loads. Is this a bad idea? Should I >>>>>>> stick with a 12 volt battery system? He does have a tiny 12 volt pressure >>>>>>> pump which might be an issue for the converter. I'm not sure. I am a bit >>>>>>> worried about the efficiency loss and capacity of DC converters and not >>>>>>> sure how to size it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>>>>> try the other: >>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>>>>> try the other: >>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image_6487327.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 209923 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Sat May 4 09:45:06 2024 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Sat, 4 May 2024 13:45:06 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system In-Reply-To: References: <069aafe04cd3f594bcb40914cdd38dfd@sti.net> Message-ID: & from what I was told this week split you only get 1/2 the power per leg? Please clarify if different _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Tom McCalmont via RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system Date: Fri, 3 May 2024 23:19:55 +0000 Size: 73524 URL: From tom.mccalmont at pairedpower.com Sat May 4 11:14:33 2024 From: tom.mccalmont at pairedpower.com (Tom McCalmont) Date: Sat, 4 May 2024 08:14:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system In-Reply-To: References: <069aafe04cd3f594bcb40914cdd38dfd@sti.net> Message-ID: It does not do split-phase. You either configure it for 120V or 240V, both single-phase (no neutral). > On May 4, 2024, at 6:45 AM, Dana Orzel wrote: > > & from what I was told this week split you only get 1/2 the power per leg? Please clarify if different > > _________________________________________________________ > Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! > C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com > W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com > “Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!” > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat May 4 21:19:50 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 4 May 2024 19:19:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1F9EFC58-79C7-4606-BE4E-EBF315328993@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tom.mccalmont at pairedpower.com Sat May 4 22:12:41 2024 From: tom.mccalmont at pairedpower.com (Tom McCalmont) Date: Sat, 4 May 2024 19:12:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system In-Reply-To: <1F9EFC58-79C7-4606-BE4E-EBF315328993@gmail.com> References: <1F9EFC58-79C7-4606-BE4E-EBF315328993@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6594FDE2-302B-4162-9019-0B5686AD20B2@pairedpower.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lawrencesteven at gmail.com Mon May 6 11:07:34 2024 From: lawrencesteven at gmail.com (Steven Lawrence) Date: Mon, 6 May 2024 11:07:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large transformer losses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > > Hi Jay, A 75kVA low voltage transformer will have roughly 0.3% iron core losses and have an efficiency loss of roughly 2%. It depends on when the transformer was made and what efficiency standard it was adhered to. the manufacturer should be able to provide you with the testing results if you provide the serial number. What's this application? The model number you provide is 600V to 120V/240V. I wouldn't expect a drop from the street to use this type of transformer. -Steven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gowdyelectriccambria at gmail.com Tue May 7 09:29:44 2024 From: gowdyelectriccambria at gmail.com (Jim Gowdy) Date: Tue, 7 May 2024 06:29:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV/Charge Controller Troubleshoot Help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good Morning, I wrote a couple weeks ago about a solar production issue for a small residential offgrid system. The customer was saying her solar production wasn't all that good and thought it should be charging their batteries better. I had gone to the property and checked the array and everything checked out so it was then looking into their Outback 60a charge controller that kept cycling and going into silent mode. There was talk of figuring out how to troubleshoot a charge controller and ended up a friend supplied me with a temporary used charge controller of the same kind and swapped it out. Since then, the solar production has dramatically increased and seems to have fixed the problem. I just want to say thanks to everyone who responded from Wrenches with good advice. On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 1:14 PM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Same experience for me, Toast if reboot doesn't wake it up. > > On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 3:33 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I've had several MX and FM failures (at least 5) over the years, often >> with the output at zero. I don't know what actually fails, but they just >> stop producing. I must admit, I don't remember if in all cases I tried >> resetting them to factory default, but my memory is when talking to Outback >> support, after checking for appropriate input and output voltages, if there >> aren't any other obvious issues, they've told me the units are toast. >> Howie Michaelson >> Sun Catcher >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 2:45 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> No error message for CC fan >>> >>> The fan should cycle from battery power off start up. >>> >>> I e never seen a CC produce zero watts. Reduced yes >>> >>> While the fan might be broken I don’t think that explains the issue. >>> >>> >>> >>> > On Apr 23, 2024, at 11:36 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> > >>> > If the fan fails would there be an error message? As always, I >>> looked this >>> > up before posting. The manual is not clear on the matter. >>> > >>> > William >>> > >>> > Miller Solar >>> > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> > 805-438-5600 >>> > www.millersolar.com >>> > CA Lic. 773985 >>> > >>> > >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] >>> On >>> > Behalf Of MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches >>> > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2024 6:58 AM >>> > To: RE-wrenches >>> > Cc: MDElectricSolar >>> > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV/Charge Controller Troubleshoot Help >>> > >>> > It may be the fan. I had an FM 80 where the fan went bad that caused >>> very >>> > limited solar production throughout the day. >>> > >>> > Michael D Nelson >>> > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>> > 707-684-0064 mobile >>> > 707-884-1862 office >>> > www.mdelectricsolar.com >>> > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>> > >>> > >>> >> On Apr 23, 2024, at 6:54 AM, jay via RE-wrenches >>> >> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> HI Jim, >>> >> >>> >> The CC is sure suspect. >>> >> You didn’t mention what the battery voltage is. >>> >> Those CC have a hard PV watt input limit. >>> >> >>> >> You can try and set it back to factory default and then reprogram, >>> >> sometimes that works. >>> >> >>> >> I don’t use the FM-60, but always the FM-80 because of the fan >>> >> replacement. the 80 takes 3 minutes, the 60 takes 2 hours. >>> >> >>> >> jay >>> >> >>> >>> On Apr 23, 2024, at 6:00 AM, Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm troubleshooting the solar aspect of a small offgrid 120v outback >>> >>> system and need some opinions. The customer was complaining that the >>> >>> generator was running too much so I went out to their property and >>> >>> investigated. The solar array consists of 16 total panels (4 >>> strings of >>> >>> 4). At the combiner box, I took the voltage and amperage reading of >>> each >>> >>> string and found the following......BREAKER 1 (85VDC/8.87A) BREAKER 2 >>> >>> (84.5VDC/8.9A) BREAKER 3 (.03VDC/0A) BREAKER 4(85VDC/8.89A). >>> Breaker 3 >>> >>> string was not producing and so I did a fix and then read >>> >>> (87.1VDC/8.43A). After reviewing the online monitor since that fix >>> from >>> >>> a few days prior I'm realizing that the first day after had 4.5KWH >>> >>> production, second day had 0.7KWH production, and yesterday had >>> 0.3KWH >>> >>> production.....sun has been out without clouds. The 60A Outback >>> charge >>> >>> controller shows there is PV voltage, but noticed it was in "silent >>> mode" >>> >>> a good amount of time. Charge controller is old, but all the other >>> >>> equipment was updated about a year and a half ago. I was wondering >>> if >>> >>> there is a way to diagnose if the charge controller is bad without >>> just >>> >>> replacing it and what does it mean when it's in "silent mode". >>> Another >>> >>> side note is that their generator threw an AGS fault code on the >>> MATE3 >>> >>> controller and found that the generator has problems so I ended up >>> >>> turning from "auto" to "off" >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Jim with Gowdy Electric >>> >>> Cambria, Ca 93428 >>> >>> business 805 927 2630 >>> >>> cell 805 975 5279 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>> try the >>> >>> other: >>> >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >> >>> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >> >>> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >>> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >> >>> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the >>> >> other: >>> >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >> >>> >> List rules & etiquette: >>> >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >> >>> >> Check out or update participant bios: >>> >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> > >>> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the >>> > other: >>> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > List rules & etiquette: >>> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> > >>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> > >>> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > List rules & etiquette: >>> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> > >>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Jim with Gowdy Electric Cambria, Ca 93428 business 805 927 2630 cell 805 975 5279 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Tue May 7 10:09:57 2024 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (David Palumbo) Date: Tue, 7 May 2024 14:09:57 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV/Charge Controller Troubleshoot Help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: When in doubt, swap it out. Dave Palumbo Vermont ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, May 7, 2024 9:29 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jim Gowdy Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV/Charge Controller Troubleshoot Help Good Morning, I wrote a couple weeks ago about a solar production issue for a small residential offgrid system. The customer was saying her solar production wasn't all that good and thought it should be charging their batteries better. I had gone to the property and checked the array and everything checked out so it was then looking into their Outback 60a charge controller that kept cycling and going into silent mode. There was talk of figuring out how to troubleshoot a charge controller and ended up a friend supplied me with a temporary used charge controller of the same kind and swapped it out. Since then, the solar production has dramatically increased and seems to have fixed the problem. I just want to say thanks to everyone who responded from Wrenches with good advice. On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 1:14 PM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches > wrote: Same experience for me, Toast if reboot doesn't wake it up. On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 3:33 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches > wrote: I've had several MX and FM failures (at least 5) over the years, often with the output at zero. I don't know what actually fails, but they just stop producing. I must admit, I don't remember if in all cases I tried resetting them to factory default, but my memory is when talking to Outback support, after checking for appropriate input and output voltages, if there aren't any other obvious issues, they've told me the units are toast. Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 2:45 PM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: No error message for CC fan The fan should cycle from battery power off start up. I e never seen a CC produce zero watts. Reduced yes While the fan might be broken I don’t think that explains the issue. > On Apr 23, 2024, at 11:36 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > If the fan fails would there be an error message? As always, I looked this > up before posting. The manual is not clear on the matter. > > William > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2024 6:58 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: MDElectricSolar > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV/Charge Controller Troubleshoot Help > > It may be the fan. I had an FM 80 where the fan went bad that caused very > limited solar production throughout the day. > > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > >> On Apr 23, 2024, at 6:54 AM, jay via RE-wrenches >> > wrote: >> >> HI Jim, >> >> The CC is sure suspect. >> You didn’t mention what the battery voltage is. >> Those CC have a hard PV watt input limit. >> >> You can try and set it back to factory default and then reprogram, >> sometimes that works. >> >> I don’t use the FM-60, but always the FM-80 because of the fan >> replacement. the 80 takes 3 minutes, the 60 takes 2 hours. >> >> jay >> >>> On Apr 23, 2024, at 6:00 AM, Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches >>> > wrote: >>> >>> I'm troubleshooting the solar aspect of a small offgrid 120v outback >>> system and need some opinions. The customer was complaining that the >>> generator was running too much so I went out to their property and >>> investigated. The solar array consists of 16 total panels (4 strings of >>> 4). At the combiner box, I took the voltage and amperage reading of each >>> string and found the following......BREAKER 1 (85VDC/8.87A) BREAKER 2 >>> (84.5VDC/8.9A) BREAKER 3 (.03VDC/0A) BREAKER 4(85VDC/8.89A). Breaker 3 >>> string was not producing and so I did a fix and then read >>> (87.1VDC/8.43A). After reviewing the online monitor since that fix from >>> a few days prior I'm realizing that the first day after had 4.5KWH >>> production, second day had 0.7KWH production, and yesterday had 0.3KWH >>> production.....sun has been out without clouds. The 60A Outback charge >>> controller shows there is PV voltage, but noticed it was in "silent mode" >>> a good amount of time. Charge controller is old, but all the other >>> equipment was updated about a year and a half ago. I was wondering if >>> there is a way to diagnose if the charge controller is bad without just >>> replacing it and what does it mean when it's in "silent mode". Another >>> side note is that their generator threw an AGS fault code on the MATE3 >>> controller and found that the generator has problems so I ended up >>> turning from "auto" to "off" >>> -- >>> Jim with Gowdy Electric >>> Cambria, Ca 93428 >>> business 805 927 2630 >>> cell 805 975 5279 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >>> other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!! dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Jim with Gowdy Electric Cambria, Ca 93428 business 805 927 2630 cell 805 975 5279 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at greenwired.com Tue May 7 12:23:31 2024 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew Perkins) Date: Tue, 07 May 2024 09:23:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PWM Controllers in parallel Message-ID: <18f53de09d3.1257d6f41126150.1930572703046507716@greenwired.com> Hello Wrenches,                     I have a client who has a large 2000 watt 12v array that he said used to be hooked into an internal solar charger on his old trace. Never seen a trace with one of those in it but he claims it could do 200a. This internal charger has now died and needs a replacement. He is refusing to rewire his panels into a new configuration and their aren't many options for him out there. I did get him a Coleman Aire 400a Charge controller but it is more of a load controller and wants to be able to properly absorb is batteries off the sun. He currently has a c60 running only part of the array and now he is asking about running another c60 in parallel. Not quite sure if this would work or not but my gut feeling says no and there will be problems.  If anyone knows of any controllers that would fit that or if running those in parallel works your advice would be greatly appreciated.   Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 http://www.greenwired.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1.png Type: image/png Size: 16298 bytes Desc: not available URL: From roy at four-winds-energy.com Tue May 7 12:42:18 2024 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler) Date: Tue, 7 May 2024 12:42:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PWM Controllers in parallel In-Reply-To: <18f53de09d3.1257d6f41126150.1930572703046507716@greenwired.com> References: <18f53de09d3.1257d6f41126150.1930572703046507716@greenwired.com> Message-ID: Andrew, That old Trace unit sounds like a very old mercury contactor regulator, just a simple on/off regulator with a 200 amp rating. You most certainly can have 2 or more pwm type controllers on the same battery bank, this is very common. You may see one go to float and the other stay in absorption for a short time because there's no way to truly synchronize them but that's not an issue. You would likely need 3-60 amp controllers to handle that 12 volt array, too bad he won't agree to rewire it. Good luck! Roy Butler Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don’t. “The less people know, the more stubbornly they know it.” Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. On 5/7/2024 12:23 PM, Andrew Perkins via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hello Wrenches, >                     I have a client who has a large 2000 watt 12v > array that he said used to be hooked into an internal solar charger on > his old trace. Never seen a trace with one of those in it but he > claims it could do 200a. This internal charger has now died and needs > a replacement. He is refusing to rewire his panels into a new > configuration and their aren't many options for him out there. I did > get him a Coleman Aire 400a Charge controller but it is more of a load > controller and wants to be able to properly absorb is batteries off > the sun. He currently has a c60 running only part of the array and now > he is asking about running another c60 in parallel. Not quite sure if > this would work or not but my gut feeling says no and there will be > problems. > > If anyone knows of any controllers that would fit that or if running > those in parallel works your advice would be greatly appreciated. > > Andrew Perkins > > Greenwired > > P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 > > 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd > > Redway, CA 95560 > > www.greenwired.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1.png Type: image/png Size: 16298 bytes Desc: not available URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Tue May 7 12:53:10 2024 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Tue, 7 May 2024 10:53:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PWM Controllers in parallel In-Reply-To: <18f53de09d3.1257d6f41126150.1930572703046507716@greenwired.com> References: <18f53de09d3.1257d6f41126150.1930572703046507716@greenwired.com> Message-ID: Andrew - I've had no trouble running multiple Trace C-series PWM controllers in parallel in the distant past. You just have to carefully adjust (with a multimeter) the bulk/absorb/float/EQ pots of both units so they don't interfere with each other and pull each other into the wrong mode for current sun and battery SOC conditions. One should have all setpoints slightly lower than the other so the first C60 gracefully bows out of each mode into the next, and the second C60 follows a few minutes later and does the same. We have even added a third C60 set by the jumpers to Diversion mode for a wind turbine, and again just a matter of the voltage/mode setpoint pots. These are not fancy digital setpoints on a display screen, so some trial and error on your part will be involved getting all the C60s to play nice, but it's very do-able and back in the pre-MPPT and pre-Cat5 data cable days this was the only way to go for larger PV systems at 12 or 24 volts nominal battery bank. And with some recent experiences with fancy digital MPPT charge setpoints...the internal voltage accuracy on some recent fancy MPPT equipment I've dealt with has been abysmal. Your tiny screwdriver and Fluke 87 won't let you down with the legacy C-series gear. To avoid multiple truck rolls, I advise adjusting the settings on a sunny day, starting with a 100% SOC battery bank, so you can turn big loads and PV input on and off to bring everything down to bulk, then play with absorb and float setpoints as SOC rises. Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Tue, May 7, 2024 at 10:25 AM Andrew Perkins via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > I have a client who has a large 2000 watt 12v array > that he said used to be hooked into an internal solar charger on his old > trace. Never seen a trace with one of those in it but he claims it could do > 200a. This internal charger has now died and needs a replacement. He is > refusing to rewire his panels into a new configuration and their aren't > many options for him out there. I did get him a Coleman Aire 400a Charge > controller but it is more of a load controller and wants to be able to > properly absorb is batteries off the sun. He currently has a c60 running > only part of the array and now he is asking about running another c60 in > parallel. Not quite sure if this would work or not but my gut feeling says > no and there will be problems. > > If anyone knows of any controllers that would fit that or if running those > in parallel works your advice would be greatly appreciated. > > Andrew Perkins > > Greenwired > > P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 > > 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd > > Redway, CA 95560 > www.greenwired.com > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1.png Type: image/png Size: 16298 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Tue May 7 12:54:00 2024 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Tue, 7 May 2024 12:54:00 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PWM Controllers in parallel In-Reply-To: <18f53de09d3.1257d6f41126150.1930572703046507716@greenwired.com> References: <18f53de09d3.1257d6f41126150.1930572703046507716@greenwired.com> Message-ID: Andrew, As long as you have proper over current and wire sizing, there shouldn't be a problem with paralleling C60s. Of course, keeping the batteries at 12v for a 2kw array makes everything else bigger and more expensive. And they won't get the MPPT advantages of even 20 year old charge controllers. Sounds a little silly to me, but I'm not there... Howie Sun Catcher On Tue, May 7, 2024, 12:25 PM Andrew Perkins via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > I have a client who has a large 2000 watt 12v array > that he said used to be hooked into an internal solar charger on his old > trace. Never seen a trace with one of those in it but he claims it could do > 200a. This internal charger has now died and needs a replacement. He is > refusing to rewire his panels into a new configuration and their aren't > many options for him out there. I did get him a Coleman Aire 400a Charge > controller but it is more of a load controller and wants to be able to > properly absorb is batteries off the sun. He currently has a c60 running > only part of the array and now he is asking about running another c60 in > parallel. Not quite sure if this would work or not but my gut feeling says > no and there will be problems. > > If anyone knows of any controllers that would fit that or if running those > in parallel works your advice would be greatly appreciated. > > Andrew Perkins > > Greenwired > > P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 > > 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd > > Redway, CA 95560 > www.greenwired.com > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1.png Type: image/png Size: 16298 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue May 7 14:44:25 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 7 May 2024 11:44:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PWM Controllers in parallel In-Reply-To: <18f53de09d3.1257d6f41126150.1930572703046507716@greenwired.com> References: <18f53de09d3.1257d6f41126150.1930572703046507716@greenwired.com> Message-ID: <513f851578a0d35e18bcd99ea8ea5ce6@mail.gmail.com> Andrew: I see no problem paralleling the Charge Controller outputs but I would not parallel the inputs. With parallel inputs, unless there is protection to prevent excessive current, there is a risk that one CC will take over and try to regulate the entire array. I suggest you divide up the panels to create one appropriately sized discrete array into each CC. You can parallel two strings of panels without OCPD. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Andrew Perkins via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Tuesday, May 7, 2024 9:24 AM *To:* Re Wrenches *Cc:* Andrew Perkins *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] PWM Controllers in parallel Hello Wrenches, I have a client who has a large 2000 watt 12v array that he said used to be hooked into an internal solar charger on his old trace. Never seen a trace with one of those in it but he claims it could do 200a. This internal charger has now died and needs a replacement. He is refusing to rewire his panels into a new configuration and their aren't many options for him out there. I did get him a Coleman Aire 400a Charge controller but it is more of a load controller and wants to be able to properly absorb is batteries off the sun. He currently has a c60 running only part of the array and now he is asking about running another c60 in parallel. Not quite sure if this would work or not but my gut feeling says no and there will be problems. If anyone knows of any controllers that would fit that or if running those in parallel works your advice would be greatly appreciated. Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 10704 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Tue May 7 14:58:37 2024 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Tue, 7 May 2024 14:58:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PWM Controllers in parallel In-Reply-To: <513f851578a0d35e18bcd99ea8ea5ce6@mail.gmail.com> References: <18f53de09d3.1257d6f41126150.1930572703046507716@greenwired.com> <513f851578a0d35e18bcd99ea8ea5ce6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, output not input. Thanks for clarifying that William... Howie *Sun Catcher* *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* On Tue, May 7, 2024 at 2:55 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Andrew: > > > > I see no problem paralleling the Charge Controller outputs but I would not > parallel the inputs. With parallel inputs, unless there is protection to > prevent excessive current, there is a risk that one CC will take over and > try to regulate the entire array. > > > > I suggest you divide up the panels to create one appropriately sized > discrete array into each CC. You can parallel two strings of panels > without OCPD. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Andrew Perkins via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 7, 2024 9:24 AM > *To:* Re Wrenches > *Cc:* Andrew Perkins > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] PWM Controllers in parallel > > > > Hello Wrenches, > > I have a client who has a large 2000 watt 12v array > that he said used to be hooked into an internal solar charger on his old > trace. Never seen a trace with one of those in it but he claims it could do > 200a. This internal charger has now died and needs a replacement. He is > refusing to rewire his panels into a new configuration and their aren't > many options for him out there. I did get him a Coleman Aire 400a Charge > controller but it is more of a load controller and wants to be able to > properly absorb is batteries off the sun. He currently has a c60 running > only part of the array and now he is asking about running another c60 in > parallel. Not quite sure if this would work or not but my gut feeling says > no and there will be problems. > > > > If anyone knows of any controllers that would fit that or if running those > in parallel works your advice would be greatly appreciated. > > > > Andrew Perkins > > Greenwired > > P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 > > 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd > > Redway, CA 95560 > > www.greenwired.com > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 10704 bytes Desc: not available URL: From andrew at greenwired.com Tue May 7 15:09:49 2024 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew Perkins) Date: Tue, 07 May 2024 12:09:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PWM Controllers in parallel In-Reply-To: References: <18f53de09d3.1257d6f41126150.1930572703046507716@greenwired.com> <513f851578a0d35e18bcd99ea8ea5ce6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <18f547648ca.ca09f7d3183624.7664287356964347527@greenwired.com> Sorry yes for clarification that he wants to parallel the INPUTS I am aware of paralleling the outputs we do that all the time. Sorry for the confusion but seems like the census now says NO on paralleling the 2 inputs from one array.  Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 http://www.greenwired.com ---- On Tue, 07 May 2024 11:58:37 -0700 Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote --- Yes, output not input. Thanks for clarifying that William... Howie Sun Catcher Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 On Tue, May 7, 2024 at 2:55 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: Andrew:   I see no problem paralleling the Charge Controller outputs but I would not parallel the inputs.  With parallel inputs, unless there is protection to prevent excessive current, there is a risk that one CC will take over and try to regulate the entire array.   I suggest you divide up the panels to create one appropriately sized discrete array into each CC.  You can parallel two strings of panels without OCPD.   William   Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 http://www.millersolar.com/ CA Lic. 773985     From: RE-wrenches [mailto:mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Perkins via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, May 7, 2024 9:24 AM To: Re Wrenches Cc: Andrew Perkins Subject: [RE-wrenches] PWM Controllers in parallel   Hello Wrenches,                     I have a client who has a large 2000 watt 12v array that he said used to be hooked into an internal solar charger on his old trace. Never seen a trace with one of those in it but he claims it could do 200a. This internal charger has now died and needs a replacement. He is refusing to rewire his panels into a new configuration and their aren't many options for him out there. I did get him a Coleman Aire 400a Charge controller but it is more of a load controller and wants to be able to properly absorb is batteries off the sun. He currently has a c60 running only part of the array and now he is asking about running another c60 in parallel. Not quite sure if this would work or not but my gut feeling says no and there will be problems.    If anyone knows of any controllers that would fit that or if running those in parallel works your advice would be greatly appreciated.     Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 http://www.greenwired.com       _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1596050015677007_1701277005.png Type: image/png Size: 16298 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue May 7 15:49:27 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 7 May 2024 13:49:27 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PWM Controllers in parallel In-Reply-To: <18f547648ca.ca09f7d3183624.7664287356964347527@greenwired.com> References: <18f53de09d3.1257d6f41126150.1930572703046507716@greenwired.com> <513f851578a0d35e18bcd99ea8ea5ce6@mail.gmail.com> <18f547648ca.ca09f7d3183624.7664287356964347527@greenwired.com> Message-ID: Rewiring the array is not that hard.  Why is he against that? With old Jbox type modules, it usually is safer too, as those often were paralleled at the modules, and often over loaded the connectors.  It would also increase his total power output by reducing line losses.   I think a careful inspection of the old array wiring will reveal it needs rewiring anyway.  Folks always blamed lightning for cooked connectors, when the real culprit was over paralleling.  I've seen the connections get so hot (4th module in parallel) that the j box was melted. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 5/7/2024 1:09 PM, Andrew Perkins via RE-wrenches wrote: > Sorry yes for clarification that he wants to parallel the INPUTS I am > aware of paralleling the outputs we do that all the time. Sorry for > the confusion but seems like the census now says NO on paralleling the > 2 inputs from one array. > > Andrew Perkins > > Greenwired > > P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 > > 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd > > Redway, CA 95560 > > www.greenwired.com > > > > > > > > ---- On Tue, 07 May 2024 11:58:37 -0700 *Howie Michaelson via > RE-wrenches * wrote --- > > Yes, output not input. Thanks for clarifying that William... > Howie > > *Sun Catcher**/ > /** > ****Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service > 802-272-0004* > > > On Tue, May 7, 2024 at 2:55 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Andrew: > > > I see no problem paralleling the Charge Controller outputs but > I would not parallel the inputs.  With parallel inputs, unless > there is protection to prevent excessive current, there is a > risk that one CC will take over and try to regulate the entire > array. > > > I suggest you divide up the panels to create one appropriately > sized discrete array into each CC.  You can parallel two > strings of panels without OCPD. > > > William > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf > Of *Andrew Perkins via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 7, 2024 9:24 AM > *To:* Re Wrenches > *Cc:* Andrew Perkins > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] PWM Controllers in parallel > > > Hello Wrenches, > >         I have a client who has a large 2000 watt 12v array > that he said used to be hooked into an internal solar charger > on his old trace. Never seen a trace with one of those in it > but he claims it could do 200a. This internal charger has now > died and needs a replacement. He is refusing to rewire his > panels into a new configuration and their aren't many options > for him out there. I did get him a Coleman Aire 400a Charge > controller but it is more of a load controller and wants to be > able to properly absorb is batteries off the sun. He currently > has a c60 running only part of the array and now he is asking > about running another c60 in parallel. Not quite sure if this > would work or not but my gut feeling says no and there will be > problems. > > > If anyone knows of any controllers that would fit that or if > running those in parallel works your advice would be greatly > appreciated. > > > Andrew Perkins > > Greenwired > > P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 > > 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd > > Redway, CA 95560 > > www.greenwired.com > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't > work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1596050015677007_1701277005.png Type: image/png Size: 16298 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed May 8 01:11:21 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 7 May 2024 22:11:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bootstrapping and AC Coupled Sunny Island Message-ID: <6bad47deaf31cb75ba91d03897b3cf8f@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I am still wrestling with problems integrating a Sunny Island / Sunny Boy AC coupled system to a set of 5 E-vault Max battery cabinets. As a refresher, with closed loop comms, the Frequency Shift Power Control system is not working, or not working quickly enough, and when nearing full charge, the voltage can spike up to 66 volts and the SI system shuts down. Fortress has told me in a roundabout way that they agree this is a real problem and they are working on a solution. Another problem has reared its head: If the E-Vaults do not get charged fully every 5 to 7 days, the BMS units SOC value becomes radically out of calibration. The E-vault will report a higher SOC than is realistic. The SI system starts the generator based on SOC and if the SOC is reported as high the generator don’t start. Sooner rather than later the battery voltage gets too low and the system shuts down. I have been tweaking on the settings like days-since-full-charge to attempt to get this cycle to stop. No definitive answer yet. Here is the reason I am writing: Yesterday I could not get the Sunny Islands to start. The battery voltage was 46 which should have been enough but for some reason they just would not start. Because of this I could not charge the batteries from generator or from AC coupled solar. I called SMA but they told me they could not advise because of the non-compatible batteries. I asked about the emergency charging procedure in the manual but I was told this does not work with lithium batteries. The process is pretty scary anyway so I was not inclined to try. SMA told me I may need an external 48 volt charging system. I have heard of this being required in certain scenarios by wrenches. This would be a huge pain in the ass: ordering one, waiting for it, hooking it up, etc. Here is what I did: I initiated the Quick Start Configuration mode and told the SI system there was a new battery bank. I told it the bank was a very small VRLA battery. The SI system accepted the 46 volts, started up and allowed a generator charge. After an hour or so we reprogrammed the system for lithium and problem resolved, at least for now. Hopefully this trick may help one of you some day. If it does, it was worth my time typing it out. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Wed May 8 07:12:11 2024 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Wed, 8 May 2024 07:12:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bootstrapping and AC Coupled Sunny Island In-Reply-To: <6bad47deaf31cb75ba91d03897b3cf8f@mail.gmail.com> References: <6bad47deaf31cb75ba91d03897b3cf8f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: William, I have often installed an iota DLS charger on systems with Fortress batteries to jump start the battery if it shuts down due to low voltage when the generator has failed. A small generator such as a Honda 2000 can get the system running. We even managed to keep an off grid rental ski house with 8 people there for a Holiday weekend running With a Honda 2000 regularly refueled by the renter. The system is an 8000 watt Radian and 1 eVault, 5Kw of solar and 12 Kw generator which had failed brushes. If the battery shuts itself off due to low voltage solar becomes worthless as well. John Blittersdorf On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 1:17 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > > > I am still wrestling with problems integrating a Sunny Island / Sunny Boy > AC coupled system to a set of 5 E-vault Max battery cabinets. > > > > As a refresher, with closed loop comms, the Frequency Shift Power Control > system is not working, or not working quickly enough, and when nearing full > charge, the voltage can spike up to 66 volts and the SI system shuts down. > Fortress has told me in a roundabout way that they agree this is a real > problem and they are working on a solution. > > > > Another problem has reared its head: If the E-Vaults do not get charged > fully every 5 to 7 days, the BMS units SOC value becomes radically out of > calibration. The E-vault will report a higher SOC than is realistic. The > SI system starts the generator based on SOC and if the SOC is reported as > high the generator don’t start. Sooner rather than later the battery > voltage gets too low and the system shuts down. > > > > I have been tweaking on the settings like days-since-full-charge to > attempt to get this cycle to stop. No definitive answer yet. > > > > Here is the reason I am writing: Yesterday I could not get the Sunny > Islands to start. The battery voltage was 46 which should have been enough > but for some reason they just would not start. Because of this I could not > charge the batteries from generator or from AC coupled solar. I called SMA > but they told me they could not advise because of the non-compatible > batteries. I asked about the emergency charging procedure in the manual > but I was told this does not work with lithium batteries. The process is > pretty scary anyway so I was not inclined to try. > > > > SMA told me I may need an external 48 volt charging system. I have heard > of this being required in certain scenarios by wrenches. This would be a > huge pain in the ass: ordering one, waiting for it, hooking it up, etc. > > > > Here is what I did: I initiated the Quick Start Configuration mode and > told the SI system there was a new battery bank. I told it the bank was a > very small VRLA battery. The SI system accepted the 46 volts, started up > and allowed a generator charge. After an hour or so we reprogrammed the > system for lithium and problem resolved, at least for now. > > > > Hopefully this trick may help one of you some day. If it does, it was > worth my time typing it out. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed May 8 09:04:10 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 8 May 2024 07:04:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bootstrapping and AC Coupled Sunny Island In-Reply-To: <6bad47deaf31cb75ba91d03897b3cf8f@mail.gmail.com> References: <6bad47deaf31cb75ba91d03897b3cf8f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <721310DA-4565-4DFC-9E03-248792944BA2@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed May 8 10:16:08 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 8 May 2024 08:16:08 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bootstrapping and AC Coupled Sunny Island In-Reply-To: <6bad47deaf31cb75ba91d03897b3cf8f@mail.gmail.com> References: <6bad47deaf31cb75ba91d03897b3cf8f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <37A6BC85-DDE9-48D4-A21C-7F9A4C08B4DE@gmail.com> A possible fix. You could run a DC relay on the SB PV input that would be voltage triggered to prevent the battery volts from getting higher than you want. The SI has 2 aux relays I think? Or could do a tristar with RD-1 relay that has 4 channels. Just a thought jay > On May 7, 2024, at 11:11 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Friends: > > I am still wrestling with problems integrating a Sunny Island / Sunny Boy AC coupled system to a set of 5 E-vault Max battery cabinets. > > As a refresher, with closed loop comms, the Frequency Shift Power Control system is not working, or not working quickly enough, and when nearing full charge, the voltage can spike up to 66 volts and the SI system shuts down. Fortress has told me in a roundabout way that they agree this is a real problem and they are working on a solution. > > Another problem has reared its head: If the E-Vaults do not get charged fully every 5 to 7 days, the BMS units SOC value becomes radically out of calibration. The E-vault will report a higher SOC than is realistic. The SI system starts the generator based on SOC and if the SOC is reported as high the generator don’t start. Sooner rather than later the battery voltage gets too low and the system shuts down. > > I have been tweaking on the settings like days-since-full-charge to attempt to get this cycle to stop. No definitive answer yet. > > Here is the reason I am writing: Yesterday I could not get the Sunny Islands to start. The battery voltage was 46 which should have been enough but for some reason they just would not start. Because of this I could not charge the batteries from generator or from AC coupled solar. I called SMA but they told me they could not advise because of the non-compatible batteries. I asked about the emergency charging procedure in the manual but I was told this does not work with lithium batteries. The process is pretty scary anyway so I was not inclined to try. > > SMA told me I may need an external 48 volt charging system. I have heard of this being required in certain scenarios by wrenches. This would be a huge pain in the ass: ordering one, waiting for it, hooking it up, etc. > > Here is what I did: I initiated the Quick Start Configuration mode and told the SI system there was a new battery bank. I told it the bank was a very small VRLA battery. The SI system accepted the 46 volts, started up and allowed a generator charge. After an hour or so we reprogrammed the system for lithium and problem resolved, at least for now. > > Hopefully this trick may help one of you some day. If it does, it was worth my time typing it out. > > William > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Wed May 8 10:25:27 2024 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Wed, 8 May 2024 10:25:27 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bootstrapping and AC Coupled Sunny Island In-Reply-To: <6bad47deaf31cb75ba91d03897b3cf8f@mail.gmail.com> References: <6bad47deaf31cb75ba91d03897b3cf8f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: William, We have had this same SOC calibration issue with a dual stack of XW Pro (AC couple with Solaredge) and 2 eVault Max as well (other issues as well). Schneider's solution was to use voltage (open loop), not SOC, for the XW's programming. We weren't very happy about that since trying to do things like peak shaving and self consumption on voltage settings is clunky at best. I have not heard any adequate solutions to this issue from Fortress to date. Disappointing, since closed loop operation was one of the supposed significant benefits of these batteries. Howie Sun Catcher On Wed, May 8, 2024, 1:16 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > > > I am still wrestling with problems integrating a Sunny Island / Sunny Boy > AC coupled system to a set of 5 E-vault Max battery cabinets. > > > > As a refresher, with closed loop comms, the Frequency Shift Power Control > system is not working, or not working quickly enough, and when nearing full > charge, the voltage can spike up to 66 volts and the SI system shuts down. > Fortress has told me in a roundabout way that they agree this is a real > problem and they are working on a solution. > > > > Another problem has reared its head: If the E-Vaults do not get charged > fully every 5 to 7 days, the BMS units SOC value becomes radically out of > calibration. The E-vault will report a higher SOC than is realistic. The > SI system starts the generator based on SOC and if the SOC is reported as > high the generator don’t start. Sooner rather than later the battery > voltage gets too low and the system shuts down. > > > > I have been tweaking on the settings like days-since-full-charge to > attempt to get this cycle to stop. No definitive answer yet. > > > > Here is the reason I am writing: Yesterday I could not get the Sunny > Islands to start. The battery voltage was 46 which should have been enough > but for some reason they just would not start. Because of this I could not > charge the batteries from generator or from AC coupled solar. I called SMA > but they told me they could not advise because of the non-compatible > batteries. I asked about the emergency charging procedure in the manual > but I was told this does not work with lithium batteries. The process is > pretty scary anyway so I was not inclined to try. > > > > SMA told me I may need an external 48 volt charging system. I have heard > of this being required in certain scenarios by wrenches. This would be a > huge pain in the ass: ordering one, waiting for it, hooking it up, etc. > > > > Here is what I did: I initiated the Quick Start Configuration mode and > told the SI system there was a new battery bank. I told it the bank was a > very small VRLA battery. The SI system accepted the 46 volts, started up > and allowed a generator charge. After an hour or so we reprogrammed the > system for lithium and problem resolved, at least for now. > > > > Hopefully this trick may help one of you some day. If it does, it was > worth my time typing it out. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed May 8 11:00:01 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 8 May 2024 08:00:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bootstrapping and AC Coupled Sunny Island In-Reply-To: <37A6BC85-DDE9-48D4-A21C-7F9A4C08B4DE@gmail.com> References: <6bad47deaf31cb75ba91d03897b3cf8f@mail.gmail.com> <37A6BC85-DDE9-48D4-A21C-7F9A4C08B4DE@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay: Thank you for taking the time. We are doing just what you suggest as an interim solution. The shortcoming of this work-around is that the highest setting for this relay function is 90% SOC. This may not be high enough to recalibrate the BMS units. And again, relying on SOC to drive operational decisions becomes problematic when one can’t rely on the accuracy of the SOC value. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 7:16 AM jay wrote: > A possible fix. > > You could run a DC relay on the SB PV input that would be voltage > triggered to prevent the battery volts from getting higher than you want. > > The SI has 2 aux relays I think? Or could do a tristar with RD-1 relay > that has 4 channels. > > Just a thought > > jay > > On May 7, 2024, at 11:11 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Friends: > > > I am still wrestling with problems integrating a Sunny Island / Sunny Boy > AC coupled system to a set of 5 E-vault Max battery cabinets. > > > As a refresher, with closed loop comms, the Frequency Shift Power Control > system is not working, or not working quickly enough, and when nearing full > charge, the voltage can spike up to 66 volts and the SI system shuts down. > Fortress has told me in a roundabout way that they agree this is a real > problem and they are working on a solution. > > > Another problem has reared its head: If the E-Vaults do not get charged > fully every 5 to 7 days, the BMS units SOC value becomes radically out of > calibration. The E-vault will report a higher SOC than is realistic. The > SI system starts the generator based on SOC and if the SOC is reported as > high the generator don’t start. Sooner rather than later the battery > voltage gets too low and the system shuts down. > > > I have been tweaking on the settings like days-since-full-charge to > attempt to get this cycle to stop. No definitive answer yet. > > > Here is the reason I am writing: Yesterday I could not get the Sunny > Islands to start. The battery voltage was 46 which should have been enough > but for some reason they just would not start. Because of this I could not > charge the batteries from generator or from AC coupled solar. I called SMA > but they told me they could not advise because of the non-compatible > batteries. I asked about the emergency charging procedure in the manual > but I was told this does not work with lithium batteries. The process is > pretty scary anyway so I was not inclined to try. > > > SMA told me I may need an external 48 volt charging system. I have heard > of this being required in certain scenarios by wrenches. This would be a > huge pain in the ass: ordering one, waiting for it, hooking it up, etc. > > > Here is what I did: I initiated the Quick Start Configuration mode and > told the SI system there was a new battery bank. I told it the bank was a > very small VRLA battery. The SI system accepted the 46 volts, started up > and allowed a generator charge. After an hour or so we reprogrammed the > system for lithium and problem resolved, at least for now. > > > Hopefully this trick may help one of you some day. If it does, it was > worth my time typing it out. > > > William > > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nponzio at buildingenergyus.com Wed May 8 11:15:51 2024 From: nponzio at buildingenergyus.com (Nicholas Ponzio) Date: Wed, 8 May 2024 11:15:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Another one bites the dust? Message-ID: I've been trying to get support for an old Outback Power system (GVFX dual stack.) I finally got a call back today from someone at a call center who told me that Outback Power has been sold and I need to send an email to the new owners to request support. Supposedly, the new company has the same name and email as the old company, but the phones haven't been transferred over yet. My scam radar alarms are ringing off the hook, but what am I to do? Anyone else have any luck getting tech support from the new company (that has the same name as the old company)? Oy! -- Nicholas Ponzio Building Energy 1570 South Brownell Road Williston, VT 05495 http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com "Building Solutions for a Sustainable Future" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed May 8 11:30:11 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 8 May 2024 09:30:11 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bootstrapping and AC Coupled Sunny Island In-Reply-To: References: <6bad47deaf31cb75ba91d03897b3cf8f@mail.gmail.com> <37A6BC85-DDE9-48D4-A21C-7F9A4C08B4DE@gmail.com> Message-ID: <713018E9-832E-48E5-AF12-64D8C3D8AAB5@gmail.com> Hi William, Since the SOC isn’t being reliable maybe due to not charging correctly? I would recommend going to volts for the relay driver. Thats why I suggested the tristar with RD-1. Because really volts at full is the most accurate. Not knowing how many PV inputs you could do a cascade. jay > On May 8, 2024, at 9:00 AM, William Miller wrote: > > Jay: > > Thank you for taking the time. > > We are doing just what you suggest as an interim solution. > > The shortcoming of this work-around is that the highest setting for this relay function is 90% SOC. This may not be high enough to recalibrate the BMS units. And again, relying on SOC to drive operational decisions becomes problematic when one can’t rely on the accuracy of the SOC value. > > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 7:16 AM jay > wrote: > A possible fix. > > You could run a DC relay on the SB PV input that would be voltage triggered to prevent the battery volts from getting higher than you want. > > The SI has 2 aux relays I think? Or could do a tristar with RD-1 relay that has 4 channels. > > Just a thought > > jay > >> On May 7, 2024, at 11:11 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> >> Friends: >> >> I am still wrestling with problems integrating a Sunny Island / Sunny Boy AC coupled system to a set of 5 E-vault Max battery cabinets. >> >> As a refresher, with closed loop comms, the Frequency Shift Power Control system is not working, or not working quickly enough, and when nearing full charge, the voltage can spike up to 66 volts and the SI system shuts down. Fortress has told me in a roundabout way that they agree this is a real problem and they are working on a solution. >> >> Another problem has reared its head: If the E-Vaults do not get charged fully every 5 to 7 days, the BMS units SOC value becomes radically out of calibration. The E-vault will report a higher SOC than is realistic. The SI system starts the generator based on SOC and if the SOC is reported as high the generator don’t start. Sooner rather than later the battery voltage gets too low and the system shuts down. >> >> I have been tweaking on the settings like days-since-full-charge to attempt to get this cycle to stop. No definitive answer yet. >> >> Here is the reason I am writing: Yesterday I could not get the Sunny Islands to start. The battery voltage was 46 which should have been enough but for some reason they just would not start. Because of this I could not charge the batteries from generator or from AC coupled solar. I called SMA but they told me they could not advise because of the non-compatible batteries. I asked about the emergency charging procedure in the manual but I was told this does not work with lithium batteries. The process is pretty scary anyway so I was not inclined to try. >> >> SMA told me I may need an external 48 volt charging system. I have heard of this being required in certain scenarios by wrenches. This would be a huge pain in the ass: ordering one, waiting for it, hooking it up, etc. >> >> Here is what I did: I initiated the Quick Start Configuration mode and told the SI system there was a new battery bank. I told it the bank was a very small VRLA battery. The SI system accepted the 46 volts, started up and allowed a generator charge. After an hour or so we reprogrammed the system for lithium and problem resolved, at least for now. >> >> Hopefully this trick may help one of you some day. If it does, it was worth my time typing it out. >> >> William >> >> Miller Solar >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirpal at oregonsolarworks.com Wed May 8 11:30:31 2024 From: kirpal at oregonsolarworks.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Wed, 8 May 2024 08:30:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Another one bites the dust? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Nicholas... I got a call from EG4 trying to get us to use their inverters and batteries. I told them that when they stop trying to sell products directly to my customers and undercutting us I would consider using their equipment. They asked which inverter brands we were currently using. I replied, Outback and SolArk. He told me..."we just bought Outback" So just like in the past ....the solar roller coaster keeps going! The only constant is change! Leaves me with mixed feelings regarding Outback now! Kirpal Oregon Solarworks On Wed, May 8, 2024, 8:17 AM Nicholas Ponzio via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I've been trying to get support for an old Outback Power system (GVFX dual > stack.) I finally got a call back today from someone at a call center who > told me that Outback Power has been sold and I need to send an email to the > new owners to request support. Supposedly, the new company has the same > name and email as the old company, but the phones haven't been transferred > over yet. My scam radar alarms are ringing off the hook, but what am I to > do? Anyone else have any luck getting tech support from the new company > (that has the same name as the old company)? > > Oy! > > > -- > Nicholas Ponzio > Building Energy > 1570 South Brownell Road > Williston, VT 05495 > http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com > "Building Solutions for a Sustainable Future" > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed May 8 11:39:00 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 8 May 2024 08:39:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bootstrapping and AC Coupled Sunny Island In-Reply-To: <713018E9-832E-48E5-AF12-64D8C3D8AAB5@gmail.com> References: <6bad47deaf31cb75ba91d03897b3cf8f@mail.gmail.com> <37A6BC85-DDE9-48D4-A21C-7F9A4C08B4DE@gmail.com> <713018E9-832E-48E5-AF12-64D8C3D8AAB5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay: I am considering ditching the Sunny Boys and installing 2 Outback FM100s. It seems to me this might solve a few problems: 1. The cc should voltage clamp and prevent over voltage when the batteries go higher Z. 2. The CCs should start up at lower voltages as soon as the sun comes out. 3. One of the FM 100s could be configured to drive an AGS relay. 4. The operation would be voltage dependent, not SOC dependent. My concern is the shallow voltage/charge curve. Can I set this system fine enough to work reliably? Has anyone used Outback charge controllers with lithium batteries? Any advice? William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 8:30 AM jay wrote: > Hi William, > > Since the SOC isn’t being reliable maybe due to not charging correctly? > > I would recommend going to volts for the relay driver. Thats why I > suggested the tristar with RD-1. > Because really volts at full is the most accurate. > Not knowing how many PV inputs you could do a cascade. > > > jay > > On May 8, 2024, at 9:00 AM, William Miller > wrote: > > Jay: > > Thank you for taking the time. > > We are doing just what you suggest as an interim solution. > > The shortcoming of this work-around is that the highest setting for this > relay function is 90% SOC. This may not be high enough to recalibrate the > BMS units. And again, relying on SOC to drive operational decisions becomes > problematic when one can’t rely on the accuracy of the SOC value. > > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 7:16 AM jay wrote: > >> A possible fix. >> >> You could run a DC relay on the SB PV input that would be voltage >> triggered to prevent the battery volts from getting higher than you want. >> >> The SI has 2 aux relays I think? Or could do a tristar with RD-1 relay >> that has 4 channels. >> >> Just a thought >> >> jay >> >> On May 7, 2024, at 11:11 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Friends: >> >> >> I am still wrestling with problems integrating a Sunny Island / Sunny Boy >> AC coupled system to a set of 5 E-vault Max battery cabinets. >> >> >> As a refresher, with closed loop comms, the Frequency Shift Power Control >> system is not working, or not working quickly enough, and when nearing full >> charge, the voltage can spike up to 66 volts and the SI system shuts down. >> Fortress has told me in a roundabout way that they agree this is a real >> problem and they are working on a solution. >> >> >> Another problem has reared its head: If the E-Vaults do not get charged >> fully every 5 to 7 days, the BMS units SOC value becomes radically out of >> calibration. The E-vault will report a higher SOC than is realistic. The >> SI system starts the generator based on SOC and if the SOC is reported as >> high the generator don’t start. Sooner rather than later the battery >> voltage gets too low and the system shuts down. >> >> >> I have been tweaking on the settings like days-since-full-charge to >> attempt to get this cycle to stop. No definitive answer yet. >> >> >> Here is the reason I am writing: Yesterday I could not get the Sunny >> Islands to start. The battery voltage was 46 which should have been enough >> but for some reason they just would not start. Because of this I could not >> charge the batteries from generator or from AC coupled solar. I called SMA >> but they told me they could not advise because of the non-compatible >> batteries. I asked about the emergency charging procedure in the manual >> but I was told this does not work with lithium batteries. The process is >> pretty scary anyway so I was not inclined to try. >> >> >> SMA told me I may need an external 48 volt charging system. I have heard >> of this being required in certain scenarios by wrenches. This would be a >> huge pain in the ass: ordering one, waiting for it, hooking it up, etc. >> >> >> Here is what I did: I initiated the Quick Start Configuration mode and >> told the SI system there was a new battery bank. I told it the bank was a >> very small VRLA battery. The SI system accepted the 46 volts, started up >> and allowed a generator charge. After an hour or so we reprogrammed the >> system for lithium and problem resolved, at least for now. >> >> >> Hopefully this trick may help one of you some day. If it does, it was >> worth my time typing it out. >> >> >> William >> >> >> Miller Solar >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed May 8 11:48:41 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 8 May 2024 09:48:41 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bootstrapping and AC Coupled Sunny Island In-Reply-To: References: <6bad47deaf31cb75ba91d03897b3cf8f@mail.gmail.com> <37A6BC85-DDE9-48D4-A21C-7F9A4C08B4DE@gmail.com> <713018E9-832E-48E5-AF12-64D8C3D8AAB5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7A53D5F1-E97E-4C9A-A2B5-00FDFD290A79@gmail.com> HI William, Yes the FM-100 has no problem with keeping the volts pretty tight and i’ve not heard of any lithium related issues, and someone is bound to chime in if there are. jay > On May 8, 2024, at 9:39 AM, William Miller wrote: > > Jay: > > I am considering ditching the Sunny Boys and installing 2 Outback FM100s. It seems to me this might solve a few problems: > > 1. The cc should voltage clamp and prevent over voltage when the batteries go higher Z. > 2. The CCs should start up at lower voltages as soon as the sun comes out. > 3. One of the FM 100s could be configured to drive an AGS relay. > 4. The operation would be voltage dependent, not SOC dependent. > > My concern is the shallow voltage/charge curve. Can I set this system fine enough to work reliably? > > Has anyone used Outback charge controllers with lithium batteries? Any advice? > > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 8:30 AM jay > wrote: > Hi William, > > Since the SOC isn’t being reliable maybe due to not charging correctly? > > I would recommend going to volts for the relay driver. Thats why I suggested the tristar with RD-1. > Because really volts at full is the most accurate. > Not knowing how many PV inputs you could do a cascade. > > > jay > >> On May 8, 2024, at 9:00 AM, William Miller > wrote: >> >> Jay: >> >> Thank you for taking the time. >> >> We are doing just what you suggest as an interim solution. >> >> The shortcoming of this work-around is that the highest setting for this relay function is 90% SOC. This may not be high enough to recalibrate the BMS units. And again, relying on SOC to drive operational decisions becomes problematic when one can’t rely on the accuracy of the SOC value. >> >> >> William Miller >> Miller Solar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> >> >> On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 7:16 AM jay > wrote: >> A possible fix. >> >> You could run a DC relay on the SB PV input that would be voltage triggered to prevent the battery volts from getting higher than you want. >> >> The SI has 2 aux relays I think? Or could do a tristar with RD-1 relay that has 4 channels. >> >> Just a thought >> >> jay >> >>> On May 7, 2024, at 11:11 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> >>> Friends: >>> >>> I am still wrestling with problems integrating a Sunny Island / Sunny Boy AC coupled system to a set of 5 E-vault Max battery cabinets. >>> >>> As a refresher, with closed loop comms, the Frequency Shift Power Control system is not working, or not working quickly enough, and when nearing full charge, the voltage can spike up to 66 volts and the SI system shuts down. Fortress has told me in a roundabout way that they agree this is a real problem and they are working on a solution. >>> >>> Another problem has reared its head: If the E-Vaults do not get charged fully every 5 to 7 days, the BMS units SOC value becomes radically out of calibration. The E-vault will report a higher SOC than is realistic. The SI system starts the generator based on SOC and if the SOC is reported as high the generator don’t start. Sooner rather than later the battery voltage gets too low and the system shuts down. >>> >>> I have been tweaking on the settings like days-since-full-charge to attempt to get this cycle to stop. No definitive answer yet. >>> >>> Here is the reason I am writing: Yesterday I could not get the Sunny Islands to start. The battery voltage was 46 which should have been enough but for some reason they just would not start. Because of this I could not charge the batteries from generator or from AC coupled solar. I called SMA but they told me they could not advise because of the non-compatible batteries. I asked about the emergency charging procedure in the manual but I was told this does not work with lithium batteries. The process is pretty scary anyway so I was not inclined to try. >>> >>> SMA told me I may need an external 48 volt charging system. I have heard of this being required in certain scenarios by wrenches. This would be a huge pain in the ass: ordering one, waiting for it, hooking it up, etc. >>> >>> Here is what I did: I initiated the Quick Start Configuration mode and told the SI system there was a new battery bank. I told it the bank was a very small VRLA battery. The SI system accepted the 46 volts, started up and allowed a generator charge. After an hour or so we reprogrammed the system for lithium and problem resolved, at least for now. >>> >>> Hopefully this trick may help one of you some day. If it does, it was worth my time typing it out. >>> >>> William >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> 805-438-5600 >>> www.millersolar.com >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirpal at oregonsolarworks.com Wed May 8 11:51:20 2024 From: kirpal at oregonsolarworks.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Wed, 8 May 2024 08:51:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bootstrapping and AC Coupled Sunny Island In-Reply-To: <7A53D5F1-E97E-4C9A-A2B5-00FDFD290A79@gmail.com> References: <6bad47deaf31cb75ba91d03897b3cf8f@mail.gmail.com> <37A6BC85-DDE9-48D4-A21C-7F9A4C08B4DE@gmail.com> <713018E9-832E-48E5-AF12-64D8C3D8AAB5@gmail.com> <7A53D5F1-E97E-4C9A-A2B5-00FDFD290A79@gmail.com> Message-ID: William. We have used FM100's, 80's and 60's to charge numerous brands of lithium batteries with no troubles. I don't think you will have any issues in this regard. Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT#25 Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 8:49 AM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > HI William, > > Yes the FM-100 has no problem with keeping the volts pretty tight and i’ve > not heard of any lithium related issues, and someone is bound to chime in > if there are. > > jay > > > > On May 8, 2024, at 9:39 AM, William Miller > wrote: > > Jay: > > I am considering ditching the Sunny Boys and installing 2 Outback FM100s. > It seems to me this might solve a few problems: > > 1. The cc should voltage clamp and prevent over voltage when the batteries > go higher Z. > 2. The CCs should start up at lower voltages as soon as the sun comes > out. > 3. One of the FM 100s could be configured to drive an AGS relay. > 4. The operation would be voltage dependent, not SOC dependent. > > My concern is the shallow voltage/charge curve. Can I set this system fine > enough to work reliably? > > Has anyone used Outback charge controllers with lithium batteries? Any > advice? > > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 8:30 AM jay wrote: > >> Hi William, >> >> Since the SOC isn’t being reliable maybe due to not charging correctly? >> >> I would recommend going to volts for the relay driver. Thats why I >> suggested the tristar with RD-1. >> Because really volts at full is the most accurate. >> Not knowing how many PV inputs you could do a cascade. >> >> >> jay >> >> On May 8, 2024, at 9:00 AM, William Miller >> wrote: >> >> Jay: >> >> Thank you for taking the time. >> >> We are doing just what you suggest as an interim solution. >> >> The shortcoming of this work-around is that the highest setting for this >> relay function is 90% SOC. This may not be high enough to recalibrate the >> BMS units. And again, relying on SOC to drive operational decisions becomes >> problematic when one can’t rely on the accuracy of the SOC value. >> >> >> William Miller >> Miller Solar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> >> >> On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 7:16 AM jay wrote: >> >>> A possible fix. >>> >>> You could run a DC relay on the SB PV input that would be voltage >>> triggered to prevent the battery volts from getting higher than you want. >>> >>> The SI has 2 aux relays I think? Or could do a tristar with RD-1 relay >>> that has 4 channels. >>> >>> Just a thought >>> >>> jay >>> >>> On May 7, 2024, at 11:11 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> Friends: >>> >>> >>> I am still wrestling with problems integrating a Sunny Island / Sunny >>> Boy AC coupled system to a set of 5 E-vault Max battery cabinets. >>> >>> >>> As a refresher, with closed loop comms, the Frequency Shift Power >>> Control system is not working, or not working quickly enough, and when >>> nearing full charge, the voltage can spike up to 66 volts and the SI system >>> shuts down. Fortress has told me in a roundabout way that they agree this >>> is a real problem and they are working on a solution. >>> >>> >>> Another problem has reared its head: If the E-Vaults do not get charged >>> fully every 5 to 7 days, the BMS units SOC value becomes radically out of >>> calibration. The E-vault will report a higher SOC than is realistic. The >>> SI system starts the generator based on SOC and if the SOC is reported as >>> high the generator don’t start. Sooner rather than later the battery >>> voltage gets too low and the system shuts down. >>> >>> >>> I have been tweaking on the settings like days-since-full-charge to >>> attempt to get this cycle to stop. No definitive answer yet. >>> >>> >>> Here is the reason I am writing: Yesterday I could not get the Sunny >>> Islands to start. The battery voltage was 46 which should have been enough >>> but for some reason they just would not start. Because of this I could not >>> charge the batteries from generator or from AC coupled solar. I called SMA >>> but they told me they could not advise because of the non-compatible >>> batteries. I asked about the emergency charging procedure in the manual >>> but I was told this does not work with lithium batteries. The process is >>> pretty scary anyway so I was not inclined to try. >>> >>> >>> SMA told me I may need an external 48 volt charging system. I have >>> heard of this being required in certain scenarios by wrenches. This would >>> be a huge pain in the ass: ordering one, waiting for it, hooking it up, etc. >>> >>> >>> Here is what I did: I initiated the Quick Start Configuration mode and >>> told the SI system there was a new battery bank. I told it the bank was a >>> very small VRLA battery. The SI system accepted the 46 volts, started up >>> and allowed a generator charge. After an hour or so we reprogrammed the >>> system for lithium and problem resolved, at least for now. >>> >>> >>> Hopefully this trick may help one of you some day. If it does, it was >>> worth my time typing it out. >>> >>> >>> William >>> >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> 805-438-5600 >>> www.millersolar.com >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Wed May 8 11:58:24 2024 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Wed, 8 May 2024 09:58:24 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Another one bites the dust? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've recently been dealing with multiple off grid DIY folks who bought EG4 products that are not UL listed, and asking me to consult about pushing through electrical permits for them. Some have spent $10k+ and are looking at really expensive boat anchors on a pallet. Some EG4 all-in-one inverter/charger/PVCC ARE listed, but some are not. As for their rack mount batteries, they advertise a "UL 9540A" listing, but the problem is UL 9540A is NOT a listing, it's simply a test that ESS manufacturers can use to apply for an actual UL 9540 listing. Signature Solar's "tech support' department responded to my info requests promptly, but never actually provided the information required by our county electrical inspector. When I kept pushing for a response, their replies stopped and I got crickets. I hope the news of Outback being purchased by EG4 is not entirely accurate, but "I've got a bad feeling about this...." My other favorite, Magnum, seems to be floundering. I don't like the Schneider ecosystem for multiple reasons. Who's left? Looks like Midnite to me at this point. Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 9:33 AM Kirpal Khalsa via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Nicholas... I got a call from EG4 trying to get us to use their inverters > and batteries. I told them that when they stop trying to sell products > directly to my customers and undercutting us I would consider using their > equipment. They asked which inverter brands we were currently using. I > replied, Outback and SolArk. He told me..."we just bought Outback" > So just like in the past ....the solar roller coaster keeps going! The > only constant is change! > Leaves me with mixed feelings regarding Outback now! > Kirpal > Oregon Solarworks > > On Wed, May 8, 2024, 8:17 AM Nicholas Ponzio via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I've been trying to get support for an old Outback Power system (GVFX >> dual stack.) I finally got a call back today from someone at a call center >> who told me that Outback Power has been sold and I need to send an email to >> the new owners to request support. Supposedly, the new company has the same >> name and email as the old company, but the phones haven't been transferred >> over yet. My scam radar alarms are ringing off the hook, but what am I to >> do? Anyone else have any luck getting tech support from the new company >> (that has the same name as the old company)? >> >> Oy! >> >> >> -- >> Nicholas Ponzio >> Building Energy >> 1570 South Brownell Road >> Williston, VT 05495 >> http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com >> "Building Solutions for a Sustainable Future" >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed May 8 14:15:08 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 8 May 2024 14:15:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Another one bites the dust? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: FWIW, I recently helped a couple of clients who purchased EG4 batteries and needed them installed. Things went surprisingly well. I have another coming up where the client purchased EG4 LifePower4 batteries and Sol-Ark 15k Inverters and got ghosted by their installer, so I'm taking over that one as well. So far so good. Of course, these few experiences don't constitute a statistically significant sample size. One thing that strikes me as odd is that EG4 says you can have closed-loop comms with a Sol-Ark, but I had great difficulty getting the EG4 to stop telling the Sol-Ark to do bad things. Sol-Ark told me that EG4's closed-loop comms are NOT ready for prime time, and they recommend against it. On another very small job where the customer has an existing off-grid system, Signature Solar tried to help me through a really basic EG4 battery to EG4 6000 inverter problem where the PV wasn't charging the battery (or at least not consistently). They were not able to help on that one. I think it's a closed-loop comms issue. They sent me the software to connect to the battery to do some diagnostics, but I think there's something going on that isn't related to the battery. Anyway, I'm switching this to open loop and hopefully the problem will go away, but I would expect EG4 batteries to play nice with EG4 inverters. There is no question that EG4 is making inroads with their batteries being MUCH lower cost than other brands. We're going to have to deal with it I guess. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 11:59 AM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I've recently been dealing with multiple off grid DIY folks who bought EG4 > products that are not UL listed, and asking me to consult about pushing > through electrical permits for them. Some have spent $10k+ and are looking > at really expensive boat anchors on a pallet. > > Some EG4 all-in-one inverter/charger/PVCC ARE listed, but some are not. As > for their rack mount batteries, they advertise a "UL 9540A" listing, but > the problem is UL 9540A is NOT a listing, it's simply a test that ESS > manufacturers can use to apply for an actual UL 9540 listing. Signature > Solar's "tech support' department responded to my info requests promptly, > but never actually provided the information required by our county > electrical inspector. When I kept pushing for a response, their replies > stopped and I got crickets. > > I hope the news of Outback being purchased by EG4 is not entirely > accurate, but "I've got a bad feeling about this...." My other favorite, > Magnum, seems to be floundering. I don't like the Schneider ecosystem for > multiple reasons. Who's left? Looks like Midnite to me at this point. > > Dan Fink > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > NABCEP PV Associate > d anbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > > > On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 9:33 AM Kirpal Khalsa via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Nicholas... I got a call from EG4 trying to get us to use their inverters >> and batteries. I told them that when they stop trying to sell products >> directly to my customers and undercutting us I would consider using their >> equipment. They asked which inverter brands we were currently using. I >> replied, Outback and SolArk. He told me..."we just bought Outback" >> So just like in the past ....the solar roller coaster keeps going! The >> only constant is change! >> Leaves me with mixed feelings regarding Outback now! >> Kirpal >> Oregon Solarworks >> >> On Wed, May 8, 2024, 8:17 AM Nicholas Ponzio via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I've been trying to get support for an old Outback Power system (GVFX >>> dual stack.) I finally got a call back today from someone at a call center >>> who told me that Outback Power has been sold and I need to send an email to >>> the new owners to request support. Supposedly, the new company has the same >>> name and email as the old company, but the phones haven't been transferred >>> over yet. My scam radar alarms are ringing off the hook, but what am I to >>> do? Anyone else have any luck getting tech support from the new company >>> (that has the same name as the old company)? >>> >>> Oy! >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Nicholas Ponzio >>> Building Energy >>> 1570 South Brownell Road >>> Williston, VT 05495 >>> http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com >>> "Building Solutions for a Sustainable Future" >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Wed May 8 21:04:01 2024 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Wed, 8 May 2024 20:04:01 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Another one bites the dust? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Thu May 9 09:06:21 2024 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Thu, 9 May 2024 09:06:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Another one bites the dust? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Nick, Zonna Energy has replacement boards for Outback inverters. Recently Outback support started suggesting calling Zonna for out of warranty tech support. Zonnaenergy.com (330) 674-1750 John Blittersdorf On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 11:17 AM Nicholas Ponzio via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I've been trying to get support for an old Outback Power system (GVFX dual > stack.) I finally got a call back today from someone at a call center who > told me that Outback Power has been sold and I need to send an email to the > new owners to request support. Supposedly, the new company has the same > name and email as the old company, but the phones haven't been transferred > over yet. My scam radar alarms are ringing off the hook, but what am I to > do? Anyone else have any luck getting tech support from the new company > (that has the same name as the old company)? > > Oy! > > > -- > Nicholas Ponzio > Building Energy > 1570 South Brownell Road > > Williston, VT 05495 > > http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com > "Building Solutions for a Sustainable Future" > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Thu May 9 15:11:38 2024 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Thu, 9 May 2024 14:11:38 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trina 195 Message-ID: Looking to replace a damaged module. Anyone happen to have a Trina 195 black frame on the shelf circa 2017ish? Please reply off the list. Thanks, Kris Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Sun May 12 10:58:06 2024 From: frenergy at psln.com (Bill Battagin) Date: Sun, 12 May 2024 07:58:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system In-Reply-To: References: <069aafe04cd3f594bcb40914cdd38dfd@sti.net> Message-ID: <0e5c3ecc-a034-44b8-a9eb-09a15654bfcb@psln.com> I'll just say I hope there are manufacturers of the equipment we are using who are diligently reading our conversations here.  They must know how us Beta-testers (AKA: installers) are fairing with their shining new versions of the stuff we install and become married to a positive outcome for our customers and really the future of solar, hopefully not at the cost of our sanity.         Personally, so far we've been happy with the switch to SimpliPhi's batteries though I'm sure we're not installing the quantity that many on the list are.  Most have been in Outback/Midnite systems of varying ages. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, owner 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) CA. C10 Lic # 874049 Solar Powered since 1982 Home of the Sunny Side Up On 4/25/2024 11:08 AM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Ray, > I'm in the same situation. My strategic plan was to work into early > old age ( in 20-25 years). But now, I spend half of my time > troubleshooting and replacing equipment on my dime. Between that, > competing with Grid-Tied guys, and having to justify my mark-up to > clients comparing my pricing to NAZ's, It's just not worth it anymore. > Where I'm at, there's little commercial or industrial electrical work > to be had so it's likely my future is pulling rope through attics and > crawl spaces. > > Yes, the Magnum equipment produced for the first five or so years was > extremely reliable. Same for the Outback, maybe less so. I was > thinking that the only repairs I had to make on SWs was replacing > transfer relays and that was only a few out of countless systems. I > think it was Bob-O who many years ago introduced me to the saying > "it's a race to the bottom" : ) > > I tried EG4's in my own system when at 15 years my Rolls reached the > end. I also tried them in a customers system. Absolute nightmare. I > don't know which is worse, the batteries or Signature Solar. > > On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 10:36 AM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi Michael; > > I don't think its 12v, I have old Trace 48 v systems still humming > along 24 years later, too. Some of it, is the customers.  The old > school off grid folks knew how to conserve energy, watch the sun, > and were not going to call unless they couldn't fix it themselves. > > Also, the equipment was built much better back then for sure, I > have a new Magnum install that is just a disaster, voltage dips > below 100 vac, every time any larger load goes on (well pump, > garbage disposal, fridge, coffee maker) and I've replaced 3 BMK > battery monitors under warranty so far. Apparently you can NOT > disconnect or connect the BMK with its built in 4 pin *connector*, > or it will smoke the unit.  That is a new problem, they used to be > robust.  I have many older Magnum systems that are great.  Magnum > quality has taken a huge dive since being acquired by Sensata. > > If it wasn't for Trace, old Outback, and old Magnum stuff being > reliable, I would have gone out of business decades ago.  Now it > looks like I need to find a new line of work, just a few years > before retirement, because manufacturers no longer prioritize > reliability.  Meanwhile Li+ is what new customers expect, yet its > still not ready for prime time, either.  I have an installer buddy > that is having all sorts of trouble with an EG4 battery setup, and > the installation isn't even complete. He's already had to dark > start them several times, and now they won't even stay operational > for more than a few minutes.  The cheapo BMS lears its ugly head > once again.  All we're doing lately is fixing stuff less than 5 > years old. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > On 4/25/2024 9:52 AM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: >> Here's a different take. Just food for thought and not >> necessarily a suggestion. Those 1st or 2nd Gen 12V systems >> were/are for me the most reliable and trouble free systems. I'd >> install one and never hear back from my customer for a decade or >> more. I regularly see "rats nest" wired 12V/Trace DR/UX hybrid >> systems with Arco panels that still hum along. When I get asked >> to update these systems, assuming that the power needs haven't >> grown much, I usually keep the voltages the same (12VDC and >> 120VAC), sanitize the wiring, add OCPDs, Victron smart >> shunt/Battery monitor, Victron CC and inverter, and Lead Acids or >> AGM's. Good for another 20 years with batteries being replaced in >> 10. With only a few exceptions, every ancient system that I have >> tried to bring into the 21st century for my low needs off-grid >> pioneers has been a flop. Inverters and Charge controllers that >> take a dump after a few years, TMI with new monitor/controllers, >> and lots of headaches with Lithium. >> >> Now, if we're talking about a client who has just purchased a >> property with a legacy system and wants to live like they are >> still in the City, that's an entirely different conversation. >> >> My own system for my full time off-grid home is 12V/120V, and I >> live Fat! Tiny array (700Ws 4 hours a day), tiny hydro (150Ws 7 >> months a year) 2 Rolls 21 CS-21Ps, Honda eu2000i, 12VDC Sunfrost, >> 12VDC device charging station, 12VDC UV water disinfection >> (gravity spring water) on a 12VDC loadcenter (SQD QO), >> Morningstar 300W Suresine powers an AC loadcenter for lighting >> and most plugs) Magnum 2812 powers a loadcenter that feeds >> bathroom and kitchen plugs. It stays off to reduce idle >> consumption). I've never had a problem with this system in 15 >> years. If I'm not around, or my financials are weak, replacing a >> piece of equipment won't hurt myself or my wife. If need be, I >> can charge from a vehicle or farm equipment. And I could pull a >> battery from something here on the ranch in a pinch. The >> wiring/installation is clear and I made a manual so that any >> decent electrician could troubleshoot and make repairs should >> Todd Cory not be around :) >> >> Again, I say all this to provoke a thought experiment. I've >> installed and replaced hundreds upon hundreds of off-grid systems >> from pinky dinky to millions and the ones that have worked the >> best were/are either AC Hydro, old-school (pre-Xantrex) or >> Schneider/Discover and the latter have had their share of issues. >> >> On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 7:34 AM Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> I had a lot of trouble keeping QO breakers functional on a >> 12VDC distribution system. I'd have to move them around every >> week or so to keep a good contact on the plug in contacts. >> They seem to work fine on a 24VDC system. I went to using >> MNPV or MNDC breakers instead in PV combiner or other MidNite >> boxes. QOU breakers are fine, but I don't know of any >> standard distribution box for them. >> >> Brad Bassett >> Application Engineer retired >> >> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 11:42 AM Jason Szumlanski via >> RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Hi Dave, >> >> I appreciate the concern. It's not one of those >> situations. We have a couple of barrier islands around >> here where people have set up what amounts to little fish >> camps that are used infrequently. The islands are also >> home to a few full-time/most-time residents and >> state parks. Everyone knows everyone. The clients are >> safe and reliable. These sites range from places that >> people paid just tens of thousands of dollars decades ago >> all the way up to many-multi-million dollar strips of >> sand where very wealthy people like to look out over >> Naples beach a couple times of year from their off-grid >> mansions. It's pretty interesting. >> >> I "get" why people who only take friends out a few times >> a year on a fishing expedition want a band-aid approach. >> There is no reason to throw $100K at a situation like >> this. In this case, I feel I can get creative to meet the >> very limited 12V and 120V needs while providing a >> reliable and long-lasting solution for around $25K and >> pocket enough money that I want to answer their call in >> the future. Right now they are getting by with 4 x 100W >> Solarland modules with a 9.6kWh battery bank and a Honda >> EU2000. I'm certain they will be blown away with the >> performance of whatever I propose, and happy that it is >> installed in a safe and professional manner. >> >> The current distribution systems look solid, each >> protected by a Square D QO breaker panel and >> professionally installed. The power production and >> delivery system is a total kludge that I feel I can fix >> without too much risk. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 2:19 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid >> Solar via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> How about just buy an RV? >> Seriously the reason Jason I am Leary is because of >> the experiences I have had with what I call Offgrid >> Squalor. >> Just have to be careful especially these days of >> druggies, people in vans with no windows, ex >> paramilitary that went bad, >> and you get the picture. >> If you know the person that is the way to keep you >> and your loved ones safe. Money does talk sometimes >> and the lack can of it >> can be a warning. >> Also as mentioned, these types of situations, are >> what gets my accountant telling me if you do not >> charge enough, >> no one will listen to your advice. >> >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines >> don't" >> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >> >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060* >> >> >> On 2024-04-24 10:51 am, John Blittersdorf via >> RE-wrenches wrote: >> >>> Jason, >>>   Just using the converter works fine. They are >>> considered a battery charger or a regulated power >>> supply. I am currently running that way now with the >>> battery cables going nowhere.  I was thinking of >>> putting the battery back in the system just for >>> triple redundancy when my inverter hits low battery >>> cutoff voltage on a cold winter night and no fuel >>> for the generator (or it won't start). >>> My Iota DLS puts out a regulated 13.4 volts up to 30 >>> amps. >>> John >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:25 AM Jason Szumlanski via >>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Ah ha! I didn't consider using a small 12V >>> battery with a charger. I was thinking of just >>> using a 120V -> 12V converter to handle the DC >>> loads. Is the 12V battery really necessary, or >>> can I just power the DC loads directly with a >>> converter? If I just have lights and fans on the >>> DC system, the load should be pretty minimal. >>> I could use a separate 12V battery, but I would >>> like to eliminate that cost and complexity if >>> possible. >>> And yeah, I am not considering this a money >>> making opportunity. It's really just a challenge >>> to ward off boredom from the daily grind. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design >>> Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:01 AM John >>> Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>> Jason, >>>   I have a customer with the same situation >>> except he already has a 12 V VFX inverter,  >>> He has a sunfrost fridge and other small >>> loads with a very fancy custom control board >>> originally set up to handle AC and DC >>> systems.  We are adding a lot more solar and >>> I was considering a dual battery system but >>> the owner didn't like that idea.  We are >>> going with and Iota 12v power supply (i use >>> one at my house for my sunfrost) to power up >>> all his DC loads and will be adding a large >>> 48 V battery bank and over 4Kw of solar >>> using a VFXR3648 directly in place of the >>> 12V inverter.  He complained that the >>> existing inverter would not handle all his >>> current AC loads very well.  My own house is >>> fully wired for 12VDC as well as AC (lots of >>> #10 copper not being used) and I have been >>> considering getting a small LFP 12V battery >>> to put back on by DC System. Then use the >>> Iota as a secondary charging method with >>> some of my large stash of older modules >>> hooked up for 12V direct with C40 charge >>> controller to recreate my original system >>> just for kicks. I'm only using DC for my >>> Sunfrost and one "emergency light" in the >>> livingroom right now. For your customer, a >>> small LFP 12v battery (approximately $500 or >>> less) to replace his old battery bankm and >>> more larger ones for the new AC side with >>> 48V inverter fed by his generator or through >>> an Iota 48 V charger ifusing a smaller non >>> charging inverter. Unlike Dave, I like these >>> challenges. Maybe thats why I never seem to >>> make money.!! >>> John Blittersdorf >>> offgridvermont.com >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 7:22 AM Jason >>> Szumlanski via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>> Fortunately, the owner is pretty handy >>> and is willing to live with any negative >>> consequences. That said, I want to offer >>> him something as simple and bulletproof >>> as possible. I am walking into this with >>> eyes wide open, for sure. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar >>> Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor >>> CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor >>> EC13013208 >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:47 PM Dave >>> Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>> Not being helpful but I walk away >>> from these. It will come back to you. >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go >>> where powerlines don't" >>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>> >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 >>> 813 0060* >>> >>> >>> On 2024-04-23 2:40 pm, Jason >>> Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> I have an off-grid client who is >>> working on replacing old >>> equipment at a cabin. He has a >>> lot of 12 volt distribution in >>> the house for lighting, fans, >>> and a 12 volt refrigerator. He >>> also has 120 volt AC loads that >>> run through a separate >>> distribution panel where the >>> only source is a 2000 Watt Honda >>> generator. There is no inverter >>> present. The batteries are >>> charged through a Trace C40. >>> He currently has a few ancient >>> solar panels and a struggling >>> Bank of AGM batteries. It's time >>> for an upgrade. I can easily >>> supply enough PV power for what >>> he needs. He currently has a 9 >>> kilowatt hour battery capacity >>> that he was happy with when the >>> batteries operated optimally. >>> Nonetheless, I would probably >>> future-proof him with a 10 to 15 >>> kilowatt hour LiPo to double or >>> triple his usable capacity. >>> For convenience, obviously it >>> would be nice to have an >>> inverter to eliminate or reduce >>> the generator requirement. But >>> he seems committed to keeping >>> his 12 volt distribution because >>> it would be costly to replace >>> fixtures. I think he would >>> consider replacing the 12 volt >>> refrigerator if he has an inverter. >>> He definitely wants LiPo batteries. >>> I don't like the idea of 12 volt >>> direct from a battery plus >>> connecting an inverter to that >>> same battery. It is going to be >>> hard to measure and monitor things. >>> I am thinking about using a 48 >>> volt battery with a single phase >>> 120 volt inverter, getting him >>> to change to a 120 volt >>> refrigerator, and using a DC >>> converter to give him somewhere >>> in the range of 100 amps at 12 >>> volts for his existing DC >>> lighting and fan loads. Is this >>> a bad idea? Should I stick with >>> a 12 volt battery system? He >>> does have a tiny 12 volt >>> pressure pump which might be an >>> issue for the converter. I'm not >>> sure. I am a bit worried about >>> the efficiency loss and capacity >>> of DC converters and not sure >>> how to size it. >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: >>> http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: >>> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address >>> & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for >>> searching. 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When one doesn't >> work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Michael Morningstar >> >> >> Morningstar Electric Inc >> >> PO Box 1494 >> >> Mount Shasta, CA 96067 >> >> 530-921-0560 >> >> CSLB 1116835 >> >> mjmorningstar at gmail.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric Inc > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > CSLB 1116835 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at getpimby.com Tue May 14 09:18:12 2024 From: matt at getpimby.com (Matt Sherald) Date: Tue, 14 May 2024 09:18:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] In Need of Panasonic 330W HIT Message-ID: Hello All, I'm fishing for a Panasonic 330W HIT module. If you happen to have one that you'd like to sell please let me know off list (matt at getpimby.com). Thanks!! -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC matt at getpimby.com 304-704-5943 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Tue May 14 15:14:03 2024 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Tue, 14 May 2024 13:14:03 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cry for help about 50 miles N of LA Message-ID: <009801daa632$e2f4ca80$a8de5f80$@OasisMontana.com> Dear people: I got a call from a fellow that needs someone with experience with Trace products. He's got an SW4048, installed in 2000 (and he's close to Thousand Oaks, in Ventura County), that has been working until lately. But he's looking for a good troubleshooter and all he can find is folks who want to sell him a new inverter. Apparently no one in his area does anything but grid-tie; this fellow is on grid but has been using this system as a back-up for critical loads. He may just need some replacement circuit boards, and he is very happy to pay for someone to figure out exactly what his problems are - but he's not ready to throw in the towel on his inverter. Any takers? Please feel free to contact me off list. Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue May 14 20:28:05 2024 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 14 May 2024 18:28:05 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Avalon Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, I am looking closely at offering the Fortress Avalon system. I would like to hear from anyone that has installed, commissioned and seen them work in the field. Pros and cons, all of your thoughts are appreciated. Thanks! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue May 14 20:37:01 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 14 May 2024 17:37:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Avalon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <626cbb98cb4ff6bcc2e1e7447a31e30e@sti.net> Huge mistake to me to use high voltage battery. I am biased for offgrid. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-05-14 5:28 pm, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > I am looking closely at offering the Fortress Avalon system. I would > like to hear from anyone that has installed, commissioned and seen them > work in the field. Pros and cons, all of your thoughts are appreciated. > > Thanks! > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue May 14 20:42:01 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 14 May 2024 17:42:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Avalon In-Reply-To: <626cbb98cb4ff6bcc2e1e7447a31e30e@sti.net> References: <626cbb98cb4ff6bcc2e1e7447a31e30e@sti.net> Message-ID: Dave: Have you actually used the product? William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Tue, May 14, 2024 at 5:38 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Huge mistake to me to use high voltage battery. I am biased for offgrid. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2024-05-14 5:28 pm, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > I am looking closely at offering the Fortress Avalon system. I would like > to hear from anyone that has installed, commissioned and seen them work in > the field. Pros and cons, all of your thoughts are appreciated. > > Thanks! > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Tue May 14 20:46:21 2024 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Tue, 14 May 2024 20:46:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Avalon In-Reply-To: References: <626cbb98cb4ff6bcc2e1e7447a31e30e@sti.net> Message-ID: Dave, Just to play devils advocate, what are your reasons as to why high voltage isn’t worthy of OG? I say this being firmly stuck in 48VDC off-grid systems. Kindly, Chris On Tue, May 14, 2024 at 8:42 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Dave: > > Have you actually used the product? > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Tue, May 14, 2024 at 5:38 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via > RE-wrenches wrote: > >> Huge mistake to me to use high voltage battery. I am biased for offgrid. >> >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> >> On 2024-05-14 5:28 pm, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> I am looking closely at offering the Fortress Avalon system. I would >> like to hear from anyone that has installed, commissioned and seen them >> work in the field. Pros and cons, all of your thoughts are appreciated. >> >> Thanks! >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Tue May 14 21:33:12 2024 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Tue, 14 May 2024 20:33:12 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Avalon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am looking at going high voltage as opposed to 48 volts. This is my largest battery system, I have a large distance between battery and inverter, 40 feet, the cost of wire, 50 kW, at 50 volts is 1000 amps. I am thinking this is too big for me. On Tue, May 14, 2024, 7:29 PM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > I am looking closely at offering the Fortress Avalon system. I would like > to hear from anyone that has installed, commissioned and seen them work in > the field. Pros and cons, all of your thoughts are appreciated. > > Thanks! > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed May 15 08:24:09 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 15 May 2024 06:24:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Avalon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54A1B08A-A253-4FCA-8934-76A01248E62F@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed May 15 11:23:31 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 15 May 2024 08:23:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Avalon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Darryl, I got involved with the Schneider Home all in one (same thing as Fortress Avalon) Before that I was involved with another Schneider HV all in one long before Solark. Omnia failed to get to market. I get the hee bee jeebies with that kind of voltage offgrid. The numerous various failures of the LG hi voltage batteries. There is no way to replace the battery without waiting for Fortress to help. With 48v, I can go to Costco or Walmart and build a temporary 48v bank in 3 hours. Pretty simple requirement that I have. Especially in this world! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-05-14 6:33 pm, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches wrote: > I am looking at going high voltage as opposed to 48 volts. This is my > largest battery system, I have a large distance between battery and > inverter, 40 feet, the cost of wire, 50 kW, at 50 volts is 1000 amps. > I am thinking this is too big for me. > > On Tue, May 14, 2024, 7:29 PM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches > wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> I am looking closely at offering the Fortress Avalon system. I would >> like to hear from anyone that has installed, commissioned and seen >> them work in the field. Pros and cons, all of your thoughts are >> appreciated. >> >> Thanks! _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Wed May 15 14:15:09 2024 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Wed, 15 May 2024 11:15:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Avalon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1715796932421.349ce9a633404092@re-wrenches.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PXL_20240326_172721955.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1701307 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Wed May 15 14:28:53 2024 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Wed, 15 May 2024 14:28:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Avalon In-Reply-To: <1715796932421.349ce9a633404092@re-wrenches.org> References: <1715796932421.349ce9a633404092@re-wrenches.org> Message-ID: Does the Avalon system have the ability to monitor an AC 400 amp service? I know the Envy does not. I ran into this in one of my installs, the envy does not support paralleling CTs to monitor paralleled main feeds. And besides, you can’t, at least several months ago even monitor a single feed 400 amp service using their CTs. I would have much more confidence in Fortress generally speaking if they would finally come out with some of these upgrades they’ve been promising for a while. *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 2:17 PM Michael Welch via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi gang. Dave Tedeyan is having troubles with his ISP and asked me to > forward this message to the list: > > Hi All, > > I installed an Avalon system in March. The SEP (smart energy panel) is a > nice idea. As Jay mentioned, getting the main and load breakers wired is > difficult. I was using standard 4/0 AL XHHW-2. It was doable, but I had to > remove the display screen in order to get things wired, and I was afraid > that I might break off one of the load relays if the wire slipped, but it > was doable. I'll attach a photo of the install in progress, you can see it > is not easy to get those wires into the main breaker. Fortress is aware of > this issue and presumably will be doing something about it. I like the > integrated relays though and how you can easily incorporate load shedding. > > In general, the product does not yet have its full capacity. They just got > the AC coupling software available right before I installed this, which is > good, since this is an AC coupled system. They still do not have the > software for generator integration, so I will have to come back this fall > to move the generator feed once that is available. I am not sure whether > you can have multiple inverters yet either. Plus, the installer app is only > in beta testing. So, right now, I have to have to share a login with the > homeowner. The homeowner app seems to be similar to the Guardian app in > that there is very little info there, and no historical info. All this will > be coming with the release of their installer app. > > The commissioning process almost went very smoothly, until at the last > screen it gave me an error sending the info to Fortress. I think in the end > it would have been fine, but I ended up on the phone for a while with tech > support to know for sure that it was OK. I am not sure whether that was a > random issue, but it seems that they are still working out some bugs. Not > surprising, considering that it is a brand new system. I gather that there > are not too many of these in the field yet, since one of their main sales > reps, Walt, randomly reached out to me to ask for feedback. I was happy to > have the opportunity to talk about it. > > Also, note, when I was testing the system and I shut off the main breaker, > it took about a second or two for power to switch over. It was not > instantaneous. So, yes, clocks reset, although it at least lets the > homeowner know that there was a power outage. With some other systems, the > homeowner may not even know that the power is out so they don't know to > adjust their power usage. (I know, the benefits of having a paired down > backup loads panel, but sometimes it just makes more sense to back up > everything). > > But, in general, I think that when this system has its full functionality, > I think it will be a really solid system at a good price. > > Cheers, > Dave > > -- > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 270-0370 > > > Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote at 05:28 PM 5/14/2024: > > > Hello Wrenches, > > I am looking closely at offering the Fortress Avalon system. I would > like to hear from anyone that has installed, commissioned and seen them > work in the field. Pros and cons, all of your thoughts are appreciated. > > Thanks! > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri May 17 12:35:08 2024 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 17 May 2024 10:35:08 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV shedding Enphase Message-ID: Good Morning Wrenches, I am working through a design with existing PV and a proposed small battery bank backup. We are pairing existing IQ7As with the System Controller 3, and a single 5P battery. We are well above the 150% oversizing of PV to battery capacity that Enphase allows so I need to open some of my branch circuits when off-grid. Is there a good reason not to use the grid side of the system (NO relays) to detect and open 2 of my branch circuits as opposed to using the aux relay contacts in the IQ System controller to open when off-grid? Is there ever a time when the System controller would bring the excess PV online? It seems cheaper and better to use the grid voltage to perform this logic to me but I may be missing something. Thanks for your input -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Fri May 17 12:52:06 2024 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Fri, 17 May 2024 09:52:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] REC modules - review? Message-ID: Hi everyone, Does anyone have positive or negative experience with REC modules? Specifically failure rate, and how the company acts when an RMA is necessary. Thank you David Quattro CA License # 954020. C-10, C-46 ph (415) 312-2661 www.quattrosolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rick at solshineenergy.com Fri May 17 13:02:31 2024 From: rick at solshineenergy.com (rick at solshineenergy.com) Date: Fri, 17 May 2024 13:02:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] REC modules - review? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6D528DFA-FB9B-4670-AA84-474EFAA87876@solshineenergy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From George.McClellan at recgroup.com Fri May 17 13:22:42 2024 From: George.McClellan at recgroup.com (George McClellan) Date: Fri, 17 May 2024 17:22:42 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] REC modules - review? In-Reply-To: <6D528DFA-FB9B-4670-AA84-474EFAA87876@solshineenergy.com> References: <6D528DFA-FB9B-4670-AA84-474EFAA87876@solshineenergy.com> Message-ID: Good Morning – Happy to chime in here. Failure rate - Currently running at 60 PPM, or about 1 module per 16,000 installed. This failure rate includes ALL products in ALL environments since 2010, not a select model in a specific location for a limited period of time. How the company acts when an RMA is necessary – The REC Claims department service level agreement is to close out all claims within 14 days from the date of the claim being filed. They hit this number over 90% of the time. Any delays are typically due to delays in information gathering on complex claims. When a claim is filed, an autogenerated note is immediately sent out to the person filing the claim and within 24 hours a member of the claims team contacts the person filing the claim (so now the claimant has a direct line of communications to the claims department). If a claim is accepted, REC will provide a credit note to the distributor/installer for a replacement module, or they will send out a replacement module if needed, as well as providing removal and replacement compensation to the installer if they are a REC Certified Solar Professional. Let me know if you have any questions or comments. George McClellan | Senior Technical Sales Manager | REC Americas LLC 735 Tank Farm Rd Ste 130 | San Luis Obispo, CA |93401 Cell phone +1 805 704 3226 | Fax +1 805 357 6104 www.recgroup.com | george.mcclellan at recgroup.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of rick--- via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, May 17, 2024 10:03 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: rick at solshineenergy.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] REC modules - review? David, We’ve been installing REC since 2009 and have always had a great experience. Never had to put in for a warranty claim. If you install per REC’s Installation Manual you’ll unlikely have to file a claim. Rick Brown Solshine Energy Solar Electric Contracting Services www.solshineenergy.com Roanoke, VA Office: 540.235.3095 Mobile: 540.808.9502 CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE -- This email is intended only for the person(s) named in the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is confidential, privileged and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender of the error and delete the message. Thank you. On May 17, 2024, at 12:54 PM, david quattro via RE-wrenches > wrote:  Hi everyone, Does anyone have positive or negative experience with REC modules? Specifically failure rate, and how the company acts when an RMA is necessary. Thank you David Quattro CA License # 954020. C-10, C-46 ph (415) 312-2661 www.quattrosolar.com [https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4w3uptWgoFu9erHS2Wpd1bR_lg3JWZpKHeiiy0VckWXYO6fcsE9mNjopSk1F2TrvwKA04_R1gVpiiwKqjQrFwF3ScdsrLjC3ceeTkdFqCkm-NE] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ________________________________ This message is private and confidential and may be privileged. Any unauthorized use, dissemination of the information or copying of this message is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately and remove it from your system. Thank you. ________________________________ This message is private and confidential and may be privileged. Any unauthorized use, dissemination of the information or copying of this message is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately and remove it from your system. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Fri May 17 13:36:15 2024 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Fri, 17 May 2024 11:36:15 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] REC modules - review? In-Reply-To: References: <6D528DFA-FB9B-4670-AA84-474EFAA87876@solshineenergy.com> Message-ID: Our experience with REC is similar to previous respondents. We almost solely installed REC modules for the better part of a few years and have over 12,000 (4.31 mW) of them in the field. Ironically enough our first warranty claim for one was a couple weeks ago (failed diode). The information submission process involved multiple email exchanges (partially due to lack of proper information provided by our technician but also partially due to REC requesting further information they didn't initially ask for). That was a minor stumbling block and the issue was resolved quickly. They didn't mail a new module but instead provided us a credit so we can pick up a replacement at the local Greetech distribution facility which is pretty handy. Not sure yet about labor reimbursement. Sincerely, Sam [image: OnSite Energy] SAM HARALDSON Operations Specialist (406) 551-6135 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 Locally owned and operated since 2012 [image: B Corporation] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Fri May 17 14:47:10 2024 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Fri, 17 May 2024 11:47:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] REC modules - review? In-Reply-To: References: <6D528DFA-FB9B-4670-AA84-474EFAA87876@solshineenergy.com> Message-ID: That's all we use. High altitude, Severe conditions. Might be the best modules we've installed. On Fri, May 17, 2024 at 10:38 AM Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Our experience with REC is similar to previous respondents. We almost > solely installed REC modules for the better part of a few years and have > over 12,000 (4.31 mW) of them in the field. Ironically enough our first > warranty claim for one was a couple weeks ago (failed diode). The > information submission process involved multiple email exchanges (partially > due to lack of proper information provided by our technician but also > partially due to REC requesting further information they didn't initially > ask for). That was a minor stumbling block and the issue was resolved > quickly. They didn't mail a new module but instead provided us a credit so > we can pick up a replacement at the local Greetech distribution facility > which is pretty handy. Not sure yet about labor reimbursement. > > Sincerely, > Sam > > > [image: OnSite Energy] > > > SAM HARALDSON > Operations Specialist > (406) 551-6135 > 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 > Locally owned and operated since 2012 > [image: B Corporation] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From russo.lou at gmail.com Fri May 17 14:55:31 2024 From: russo.lou at gmail.com (Lou Russo) Date: Fri, 17 May 2024 08:55:31 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] REC modules - review? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We have installing REC for 15 years with no issues. George and his team have been nothing but awesome to work with. We have never had to file a warranty claims. As a certified installer the improved warranty and labor credit if there is a claim has been a great selling point for us as well. Their app for registering panels is easy. On Fri, May 17, 2024, 6:54 AM david quattro via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi everyone, > Does anyone have positive or negative experience with REC modules? > Specifically failure rate, and how the company acts when an RMA is > necessary. Thank you > > David Quattro > > CA License # 954020. C-10, C-46 > ph (415) 312-2661 > www.quattrosolar.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From iesbatteries at gmail.com Fri May 17 16:47:18 2024 From: iesbatteries at gmail.com (Daryl DeJoy) Date: Fri, 17 May 2024 16:47:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] REC modules - review? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have to chime in with my experiences with REC as well. One of the reasons we continue to sell their modules is their high marine salt spray rating. Short term, installing any module in the Caribbean or the coast of Maine can be successful, but the longevity of highly rated modules like the ones REC manufactures guarantees success for the long run. We installed a 32 module REC array on Cat Island in the Bahamas about 18 years ago. The system performed as expected but REC found there was a defect in the sealing of the junction boxes and put out a recall on them. After discussions about the reality of removing and shipping back 32 modules to California from Cat Island they suggested we work with them to do the recall work in the field. Here my memory might be a bit weak, but I remember two techs coming down to do the work as we removed modules. It was a day or twos work but the work was completed successfully. If my memory serves me correctly Tom Donkin was one of the techs and the other tech was George McClellan. Correct me if I'm wrong, George, it seems like a lifetime ago. REC also stepped up another time in my career in 2010 while I was doing relief work in Haiti after the earthquake. The town of Leogane, where we were working, had it's entire infrastructure(water/electric/sewer) destroyed. I asked different manufacturers I had been buying from for years if they would donate equipment so I could put together a system to provide water to relief workers and townspeople. REC stepped up in a big way to help, donating a pallet of modules. They made a difference and I am happy to say except for that one recall years ago we have never had a single warranty claim with them. Just one man's experience..... Daryl DeJoy NABCEP Certified PVIP since 2006 Island Energy Storage On Fri, May 17, 2024, 2:57 PM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We have installing REC for 15 years with no issues. George and his team > have been nothing but awesome to work with. We have never had to file a > warranty claims. > > As a certified installer the improved warranty and labor credit if there > is a claim has been a great selling point for us as well. > > Their app for registering panels is easy. > > > On Fri, May 17, 2024, 6:54 AM david quattro via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi everyone, >> Does anyone have positive or negative experience with REC modules? >> Specifically failure rate, and how the company acts when an RMA is >> necessary. Thank you >> >> David Quattro >> >> CA License # 954020. C-10, C-46 >> ph (415) 312-2661 >> www.quattrosolar.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat May 18 12:16:27 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 18 May 2024 09:16:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics Message-ID: Friends: 100% of our Optics sites are down since 11 AM yesterday. Is it just us? William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Sat May 18 12:20:37 2024 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (Foxfire Energy) Date: Sat, 18 May 2024 16:20:37 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <63E2874C-7D5F-40DE-8112-BF3A3306BCA0@foxfire-energy.com> Nope Sent from my iPhone On May 18, 2024, at 12:17 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote:  Friends: 100% of our Optics sites are down since 11 AM yesterday. Is it just us? William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Sat May 18 12:23:54 2024 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Sat, 18 May 2024 12:23:54 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mine are down also since 2pm EDT yesterday John Blittersdorf. On Sat, May 18, 2024 at 12:17 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > 100% of our Optics sites are down since 11 AM yesterday. Is it just us? > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Sat May 18 12:42:09 2024 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Sat, 18 May 2024 09:42:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1716050529.13312626@webmail.finestplanet.com> Mine is down too as well as through the back door: [ https://23.99.68.42/Home/#/system/dashboard ]( https://23.99.68.42/Home/#/system/dashboard ) Todd On Saturday, May 18, 2024 9:23am, "John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches" said: Mine are down also since 2pm EDT yesterday John Blittersdorf. On Sat, May 18, 2024 at 12:17 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <[ re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org )> wrote: Friends: 100% of our Optics sites are down since 11 AM yesterday. Is it just us? William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 [ www.millersolar.com ]( http://www.millersolar.com )_______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: [ http://re-wrenches.org ]( http://re-wrenches.org ) List Address: [ RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ) Change listserver email address & settings: [ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ) There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: [ https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ ]( https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ ) [ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ) List rules & etiquette: [ http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ]( http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ) Check out or update participant bios: [ http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ]( http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ) Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sat May 18 12:45:47 2024 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sat, 18 May 2024 10:45:47 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mine all went down yesterday at noon MDT. I wonder if this has to do with the sale of Outback? Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Sat, May 18, 2024 at 10:17 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > 100% of our Optics sites are down since 11 AM yesterday. Is it just us? > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Sat May 18 14:50:07 2024 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Sat, 18 May 2024 08:50:07 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All my sites are currently down. Not related but I tried to call tech support yesterday during business hours and got message saying thank you for calling Outback Sales leave a message. I do hope they are just in transition but I got a bad feeling about this. I hope I am wrong. Has anyone heard for sure who bought them? I know they were bought from talking to tech support but that is all I know and the Internet has 0 info on a recent sale. On Sat, May 18, 2024, 6:48 AM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Mine all went down yesterday at noon MDT. I wonder if this has to do with > the sale of Outback? > > Dan Fink > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > NABCEP PV Associate > d anbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > > > On Sat, May 18, 2024 at 10:17 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Friends: >> >> 100% of our Optics sites are down since 11 AM yesterday. Is it just us? >> >> William Miller >> Miller Solar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirk at abundantsolar.com Sat May 18 15:24:10 2024 From: kirk at abundantsolar.com (Kirk Bailey) Date: Sat, 18 May 2024 12:24:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The rumor I've heard is EG4 purchased them. Kirk Bailey www.abundantsolar.com On Saturday, May 18, 2024, Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > All my sites are currently down. > > Not related but I tried to call tech support yesterday during business > hours and got message saying thank you for calling Outback Sales leave a > message. > > I do hope they are just in transition but I got a bad feeling about this. > I hope I am wrong. > > Has anyone heard for sure who bought them? I know they were bought from > talking to tech support but that is all I know and the Internet has 0 info > on a recent sale. > > On Sat, May 18, 2024, 6:48 AM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Mine all went down yesterday at noon MDT. I wonder if this has to do with >> the sale of Outback? >> >> Dan Fink >> Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC >> IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation >> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector >> NABCEP PV Associate >> d anbob88 at gmail.com >> 970-672-4342 >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, May 18, 2024 at 10:17 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Friends: >>> >>> 100% of our Optics sites are down since 11 AM yesterday. Is it just us? >>> >>> William Miller >>> Miller Solar.com >>> 805-438-5600 >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat May 18 23:34:16 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 18 May 2024 20:34:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <543cb757f887f1ad8f1361bde13b177f@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I am sure you are all acutely aware, but this is not a trivial matter. We depend on Optics for alerts and trouble shooting. We rely on Optics for the history it records to analyze trends and evaluate production and consumption. I doubt the data lost will back-fill. I sell Outback based in great part on the Optics interface. For this system to be down for days at a time is not a good sign at all. I will be lighting up the phone lines on Monday to find out what happened and to emphasize this cannot become a pattern. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Lou Russo via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Saturday, May 18, 2024 11:50 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Lou Russo *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Optics All my sites are currently down. Not related but I tried to call tech support yesterday during business hours and got message saying thank you for calling Outback Sales leave a message. I do hope they are just in transition but I got a bad feeling about this. I hope I am wrong. Has anyone heard for sure who bought them? I know they were bought from talking to tech support but that is all I know and the Internet has 0 info on a recent sale. On Sat, May 18, 2024, 6:48 AM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Mine all went down yesterday at noon MDT. I wonder if this has to do with the sale of Outback? Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Sat, May 18, 2024 at 10:17 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Friends: 100% of our Optics sites are down since 11 AM yesterday. Is it just us? William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun May 19 08:20:09 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 19 May 2024 06:20:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics In-Reply-To: <543cb757f887f1ad8f1361bde13b177f@mail.gmail.com> References: <543cb757f887f1ad8f1361bde13b177f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47C1F232-F853-4616-8A0A-83802CBA01CC@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Sun May 19 13:51:08 2024 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Sun, 19 May 2024 07:51:08 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics In-Reply-To: <47C1F232-F853-4616-8A0A-83802CBA01CC@gmail.com> References: <543cb757f887f1ad8f1361bde13b177f@mail.gmail.com> <47C1F232-F853-4616-8A0A-83802CBA01CC@gmail.com> Message-ID: I started poking through EnerSys's (The most recent owner of Outback) SEC filings in hopes to find who the new buyer is. I found nothing related to the sale but found this in their most recent quarterly report : On November 8, 2023, the Company's Board of Directors approved a plan to stop production and operations of residential renewable energy products, which include our OutBack and Mojave brands. Management determined that residential renewable energy products no longer fit with the company’s core strategy and resources will be better allocated toward commercial energy solutions for enterprise customers. The Company currently estimates that the total charges for these actions will amount to $23.5 million relating primarily to $22.6 million in non-cash charges primarily including inventory and an indefinite-lived intangible asset write-offs and $0.9 million in cash charges including employee severance and retention payments. The plan is expected to be completed in fiscal 2024. During the nine months of fiscal 2024, the Company recorded non-cash charges totaling $6.6 million primarily related to indefinite-lived intangible asset write-off and cash charges of $0.4 million related to severance costs. The Company also recorded a non-cash write off relating to inventories of $16.1 million, which was reported in cost of goods sold. To say I am curious about what is going on is an understatement. Aloha, Lou Russo Owner lou at spreesolarsystems.com 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 On Sun, May 19, 2024 at 2:21 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I agree with you William > > While there could be all sorts of valid reasons for the downtime. > > What’s not acceptable is the lack of communication and notification that > it was going to happen or had happened. > > If they do have new owners they are not starting well. > > Jay > > > > On May 18, 2024, at 9:42 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Friends: > > > > I am sure you are all acutely aware, but this is not a trivial matter. We > depend on Optics for alerts and trouble shooting. We rely on Optics for > the history it records to analyze trends and evaluate production and > consumption. I doubt the data lost will back-fill. I sell Outback based in > great part on the Optics interface. For this system to be down for days at > a time is not a good sign at all. > > > > I will be lighting up the phone lines on Monday to find out what happened > and to emphasize this cannot become a pattern. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Lou Russo via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Saturday, May 18, 2024 11:50 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Lou Russo > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Optics > > > > All my sites are currently down. > > > > Not related but I tried to call tech support yesterday during business > hours and got message saying thank you for calling Outback Sales leave a > message. > > > > I do hope they are just in transition but I got a bad feeling about this. > I hope I am wrong. > > > > Has anyone heard for sure who bought them? I know they were bought from > talking to tech support but that is all I know and the Internet has 0 info > on a recent sale. > > > > On Sat, May 18, 2024, 6:48 AM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Mine all went down yesterday at noon MDT. I wonder if this has to do with > the sale of Outback? > > > Dan Fink > > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > > NABCEP PV Associate > > d anbob88 at gmail.com > > 970-672-4342 > > > > > > > > > On Sat, May 18, 2024 at 10:17 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Friends: > > > > 100% of our Optics sites are down since 11 AM yesterday. Is it just us? > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun May 19 13:55:55 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 19 May 2024 10:55:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics In-Reply-To: References: <543cb757f887f1ad8f1361bde13b177f@mail.gmail.com> <47C1F232-F853-4616-8A0A-83802CBA01CC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <06a256f79e3ab14ce7a4de75fb129535@sti.net> On November 8, 2023, the Company's Board of Directors approved a plan to stop production and operations of residential renewable energy products, which include our OutBack and Mojave brands. Management determined that residential renewable energy products no longer fit with the company's core strategy and resources will be better allocated toward commercial energy solutions for enterprise customers. The Company currently estimates that the total charges for these actions will amount to $23.5 million relating primarily to $22.6 million in non-cash charges primarily including inventory and an indefinite-lived intangible asset write-offs and $0.9 million in cash charges including employee severance and retention payments. The plan is expected to be completed in fiscal 2024. During the nine months of fiscal 2024, the Company recorded non-cash charges totaling $6.6 million primarily related to indefinite-lived intangible asset write-off and cash charges of $0.4 million related to severance costs. The Company also recorded a non-cash write off relating to inventories of $16.1 million, which was reported in cost of goods sold. To say I am curious about what is going on is an understatement. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [3]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [4] [3] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-05-19 10:51 am, Lou Russo via RE-wrenches wrote: > I started poking through EnerSys's (The most recent owner of Outback) > SEC filings in hopes to find who the new buyer is. I found nothing > related to the sale but found this in their most recent quarterly > report : > > On November 8, 2023, the Company's Board of Directors approved a plan > to stop production and operations of residential renewable energy > products, which include our OutBack and Mojave brands. Management > determined that residential renewable energy products no longer fit > with the company's core strategy and resources will be better allocated > toward commercial energy solutions for enterprise customers. The > Company currently estimates that the total charges for these actions > will amount to $23.5 million relating primarily to $22.6 million in > non-cash charges primarily including inventory and an indefinite-lived > intangible asset write-offs and $0.9 million in cash charges including > employee severance and retention payments. The plan is expected to be > completed in fiscal 2024. During the nine months of fiscal 2024, the > Company recorded non-cash charges totaling $6.6 million primarily > related to indefinite-lived intangible asset write-off and cash charges > of $0.4 million related to severance costs. The Company also recorded a > non-cash write off relating to inventories of $16.1 million, which was > reported in cost of goods sold. > > To say I am curious about what is going on is an understatement. > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > Owner > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > 808 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > On Sun, May 19, 2024 at 2:21 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > I agree with you William > > While there could be all sorts of valid reasons for the downtime. > > What's not acceptable is the lack of communication and notification > that it was going to happen or had happened. > > If they do have new owners they are not starting well. > > Jay > > On May 18, 2024, at 9:42 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Friends: > > I am sure you are all acutely aware, but this is not a trivial matter. > We depend on Optics for alerts and trouble shooting. We rely on Optics > for the history it records to analyze trends and evaluate production > and consumption. I doubt the data lost will back-fill. I sell Outback > based in great part on the Optics interface. For this system to be > down for days at a time is not a good sign at all. > > I will be lighting up the phone lines on Monday to find out what > happened and to emphasize this cannot become a pattern. > > William > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com [1] > > CA Lic. 773985 > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Lou Russo via RE-wrenches > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2024 11:50 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Lou Russo > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Optics > > All my sites are currently down. > > Not related but I tried to call tech support yesterday during business > hours and got message saying thank you for calling Outback Sales leave > a message. > > I do hope they are just in transition but I got a bad feeling about > this. I hope I am wrong. > > Has anyone heard for sure who bought them? I know they were bought from > talking to tech support but that is all I know and the Internet has 0 > info on a recent sale. > > On Sat, May 18, 2024, 6:48 AM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Mine all went down yesterday at noon MDT. I wonder if this has to do > with the sale of Outback? > > Dan Fink > > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > > NABCEP PV Associate > > danbob88 at gmail.com > > 970-672-4342 > > On Sat, May 18, 2024 at 10:17 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Friends: > > 100% of our Optics sites are down since 11 AM yesterday. Is it just us? > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com [2] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.millersolar.com/ [2] http://www.millersolar.com [3] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [4] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun May 19 14:00:53 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 19 May 2024 11:00:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics In-Reply-To: <06a256f79e3ab14ce7a4de75fb129535@sti.net> References: <543cb757f887f1ad8f1361bde13b177f@mail.gmail.com> <47C1F232-F853-4616-8A0A-83802CBA01CC@gmail.com> <06a256f79e3ab14ce7a4de75fb129535@sti.net> Message-ID: Easier to read but still not a good sign! When I worked at HP in the 80's they struggled with keeping old equipment alive. It was terribly expensive and they just stopped after 5 years and let the secondary market do repairs. Even that was expensive and finally just stopped keeping any inventory. Repair by scavenging was the only way. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 >> Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon May 20 11:51:24 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 08:51:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback: Message-ID: <2ad2dfa8aa069d5edc81fc362230eb89@mail.gmail.com> Friends: Optics is still down as of Monday morning. Outback does not answer telephone calls. Options on their automated attendant are Tech Support and Sales. Either selection directs you to sales but no one picks up. I left several messages. I called Zonna Energy to ask. They told me Outback had been purchased and moved to Texas. Zonna has stock and is being promised manufacturing will be continued. Zonna is aware Optics and Tech Support are unavailable but don’t know when it will return. Zonna says Outback has been responding to on-line case requests. They seem confident that the Outback line will continue as before. That’s what I have learned this morning. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon May 20 13:00:03 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 10:00:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback: In-Reply-To: <2ad2dfa8aa069d5edc81fc362230eb89@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ad2dfa8aa069d5edc81fc362230eb89@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Interesting that Commerce, TX is 20 miles from Sulphur Springs, TX which is the home of Signature Solar. https://www.outbackpower.com/resources/ ... rt-request [4] Shows: 404 Page Not Found Component not found [5] The moderators (not Outback employees) on the forum have an interesting conspiracy thread going if it is a slow Monday. https://forum.outbackpower.com/viewtopic.php?t=18704&start=25 Good info also on using WattPlott earlier in the thread. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [2]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [3] [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-05-20 8:51 am, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > Friends: > > Optics is still down as of Monday morning. Outback does not answer > telephone calls. Options on their automated attendant are Tech Support > and Sales. Either selection directs you to sales but no one picks up. > I left several messages. > > I called Zonna Energy to ask. They told me Outback had been purchased > and moved to Texas. Zonna has stock and is being promised > manufacturing will be continued. Zonna is aware Optics and Tech > Support are unavailable but don't know when it will return. Zonna says > Outback has been responding to on-line case requests. They seem > confident that the Outback line will continue as before. > > That's what I have learned this morning. > > William > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com [1] > > CA Lic. 773985 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.millersolar.com/ [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] https://offgridsolar1.com/ [4] https://www.outbackpower.com/resources/technical-support/online-support-request [5] https://forum.outbackpower.com/download/file.php?id=8844&sid=e2971edb8c3c1f4852bd24fddac80465&mode=view -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Mon May 20 13:53:34 2024 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 12:53:34 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback: In-Reply-To: <99f454f4-5245-43bf-0efe-bac9b1baf73b@villagelab.net> References: <2ad2dfa8aa069d5edc81fc362230eb89@mail.gmail.com> <99f454f4-5245-43bf-0efe-bac9b1baf73b@villagelab.net> Message-ID: <79a41d3a-49cb-9cbe-a775-f4f2efba500b@villagepowerdesign.com> Here is the official word from the new president of Outback Power just now posted on the Outback Forum: > Hello Outback Community, > > My name is Marshall Neipert, the new president of Outback Power. As > some of you may have heard, Outback Power has recently been purchased > from EnerSys in a private sale. Although the official announcement was > scheduled for the end of May, the ongoing issues with Optics RE have > prompted me to address the community earlier. > > I want to assure you that despite the transition to new ownership, the > hosting of Optics RE has not yet moved to Outback Power. It remains > hosted by EnerSys. I met with the lead tech at EnerSys responsible for > hosting Optics RE early Monday morning. He assured me that they have > identified the problem and are working diligently to bring Optics RE > back online as soon as possible. > > I will personally keep you updated on the progress here in this forum, > and we hope to resolve the issue very soon. > > This is not how I envisioned my introduction to the Outback community, > but under the circumstances, I wanted to assure you that I am > committed to maintaining open communication and ensuring that Outback > Power is in good hands. > > Please keep an eye out for our upcoming press release, which will > include exciting hints about the incredible, disruptive products > Outback Power will be releasing soon. > > Sincerely, > > Marshall Neipert > President, Outback Power Hope that helps to clear things up! Best, ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches > > May 20, 2024 at 12:00 PM > Interesting that Commerce, TX is 20 miles from Sulphur Springs, TX > which is the home of Signature Solar. > https://www.outbackpower.com/resources/ ... rt-request > > Shows: > 404 Page Not Found > Component not found > > Screenshot 2024-05-20 104538.jpg > > > The moderators (not Outback employees) on the forum have an > interesting conspiracy thread going if it is a slow Monday. > https://forum.outbackpower.com/viewtopic.php?t=18704&start=25 > Good info also on using WattPlott earlier in the thread. > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2024-05-20 8:51 am, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > William Miller via RE-wrenches > May 20, 2024 at 10:51 AM > > Friends: > > Optics is still down as of Monday morning.  Outback does not answer > telephone calls.  Options on their automated attendant are Tech > Support and Sales.  Either selection directs you to sales but no one > picks up.  I left several messages. > > I called Zonna Energy to ask.  They told me Outback had been purchased > and moved to Texas.  Zonna has stock and is being promised > manufacturing will be continued.  Zonna is aware Optics and Tech > Support are unavailable but don’t know when it will return. Zonna says > Outback has been responding to on-line case requests.  They seem > confident that the Outback line will continue as before. > > That’s what I have learned this morning. > > William > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 49056 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon May 20 19:21:10 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 17:21:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] UL batteries for open loop Message-ID: <46340A6B-1B69-4CF5-B1F5-3364ABA6C4A2@gmail.com> HI All I got a call from a fellow installer who needs a UL listed lithium battery. Say 30-50 kwh. open loop as its working with existing OB radians. Could be outside or inside It so confusing to find the right battery I’d thought I would ask what folks are using/recommending. thanks jay From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Mon May 20 19:25:20 2024 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MD Electric & Solar) Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 16:25:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] UL batteries for open loop In-Reply-To: <46340A6B-1B69-4CF5-B1F5-3364ABA6C4A2@gmail.com> References: <46340A6B-1B69-4CF5-B1F5-3364ABA6C4A2@gmail.com> Message-ID: I would think most Lithiums should work. We've used Simpliphi with Radian successfully. Mike On Mon, May 20, 2024 at 4:22 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > HI All > > I got a call from a fellow installer who needs a UL listed lithium > battery. > Say 30-50 kwh. open loop as its working with existing OB radians. > Could be outside or inside > > It so confusing to find the right battery I’d thought I would ask what > folks are using/recommending. > > thanks > > jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-412-3181 Cell: 707-684-0064 www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Mon May 20 19:34:28 2024 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 17:34:28 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] UL batteries for open loop In-Reply-To: <46340A6B-1B69-4CF5-B1F5-3364ABA6C4A2@gmail.com> References: <46340A6B-1B69-4CF5-B1F5-3364ABA6C4A2@gmail.com> Message-ID: What specific UL listing(s) are they requiring? Around these parts it's been UL 9540 for all AHJs, and some requiring that even for lead-acid, despite the IFC exceptions and so few listed products (the IRC now seems to require UL 9540 even if the system is not grid-interconnected). UL 9540A is not an actual listing but an active fire test, results of which can be used to gain their UL 9540 and/or allow smaller offsets between each ESS unit and from windows, doors etc if their individual UL 9540A testing results allow that. Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Mon, May 20, 2024 at 5:22 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > HI All > > I got a call from a fellow installer who needs a UL listed lithium > battery. > Say 30-50 kwh. open loop as its working with existing OB radians. > Could be outside or inside > > It so confusing to find the right battery I’d thought I would ask what > folks are using/recommending. > > thanks > > jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon May 20 19:44:28 2024 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 16:44:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics In-Reply-To: References: <543cb757f887f1ad8f1361bde13b177f@mail.gmail.com> <47C1F232-F853-4616-8A0A-83802CBA01CC@gmail.com> Message-ID: So here is the scoop, I got it that outback is moving to Dallas and will still be a premium product, and yes the optics shut down had something to do with the sale. Everyone hold on as they say they have new products at SPI this fall. Keep your fingers crossed and let's all wait patiently. Fun times On Sun, May 19, 2024, 10:53 AM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I started poking through EnerSys's (The most recent owner of Outback) SEC > filings in hopes to find who the new buyer is. I found nothing related to > the sale but found this in their most recent quarterly report : > > On November 8, 2023, the Company's Board of Directors approved a plan to > stop production and operations of residential renewable energy products, > which include our OutBack and Mojave brands. Management determined that > residential renewable energy products no longer fit with the company’s core > strategy and resources will be better allocated toward commercial energy > solutions for enterprise customers. The Company currently estimates that > the total charges for these actions will amount to $23.5 million relating > primarily to $22.6 million in non-cash charges primarily including > inventory and an indefinite-lived intangible asset write-offs and $0.9 > million in cash charges including employee severance and retention > payments. The plan is expected to be completed in fiscal 2024. During the > nine months of fiscal 2024, the Company recorded non-cash charges totaling > $6.6 million primarily related to indefinite-lived intangible asset > write-off and cash charges of $0.4 million related to severance costs. The > Company also recorded a non-cash write off relating to inventories of $16.1 > million, which was reported in cost of goods sold. > > To say I am curious about what is going on is an understatement. > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > Owner > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > 808 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > > > > On Sun, May 19, 2024 at 2:21 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I agree with you William >> >> While there could be all sorts of valid reasons for the downtime. >> >> What’s not acceptable is the lack of communication and notification that >> it was going to happen or had happened. >> >> If they do have new owners they are not starting well. >> >> Jay >> >> >> >> On May 18, 2024, at 9:42 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> >> Friends: >> >> >> >> I am sure you are all acutely aware, but this is not a trivial matter. >> We depend on Optics for alerts and trouble shooting. We rely on Optics for >> the history it records to analyze trends and evaluate production and >> consumption. I doubt the data lost will back-fill. I sell Outback based in >> great part on the Optics interface. For this system to be down for days at >> a time is not a good sign at all. >> >> >> >> I will be lighting up the phone lines on Monday to find out what happened >> and to emphasize this cannot become a pattern. >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Lou Russo via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Saturday, May 18, 2024 11:50 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* Lou Russo >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Optics >> >> >> >> All my sites are currently down. >> >> >> >> Not related but I tried to call tech support yesterday during business >> hours and got message saying thank you for calling Outback Sales leave a >> message. >> >> >> >> I do hope they are just in transition but I got a bad feeling about this. >> I hope I am wrong. >> >> >> >> Has anyone heard for sure who bought them? I know they were bought from >> talking to tech support but that is all I know and the Internet has 0 info >> on a recent sale. >> >> >> >> On Sat, May 18, 2024, 6:48 AM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Mine all went down yesterday at noon MDT. I wonder if this has to do with >> the sale of Outback? >> >> >> Dan Fink >> >> Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC >> >> IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation >> >> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector >> >> NABCEP PV Associate >> >> d anbob88 at gmail.com >> >> 970-672-4342 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, May 18, 2024 at 10:17 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Friends: >> >> >> >> 100% of our Optics sites are down since 11 AM yesterday. Is it just us? >> >> William Miller >> Miller Solar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Mon May 20 20:13:37 2024 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 17:13:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics In-Reply-To: References: <543cb757f887f1ad8f1361bde13b177f@mail.gmail.com> <47C1F232-F853-4616-8A0A-83802CBA01CC@gmail.com> Message-ID: At Intersolar (January) San Diego, I heard Bigbatterybox.com purchased Outback. Since then, I've heard it may be Signature Solar. I am unsure who purchased them, but with them being so close to Signature Solar, that makes sense. I'm not sure who purchased them, but they have been asleep at the wheel since then. They can't sell any product in Canada because they have let their CSA certificates lapse. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Mon, May 20, 2024 at 4:45 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > So here is the scoop, I got it that outback is moving to Dallas and will > still be a premium product, and yes the optics shut down had something to > do with the sale. Everyone hold on as they say they have new products at > SPI this fall. Keep your fingers crossed and let's all wait patiently. > Fun times > > On Sun, May 19, 2024, 10:53 AM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I started poking through EnerSys's (The most recent owner of Outback) SEC >> filings in hopes to find who the new buyer is. I found nothing related to >> the sale but found this in their most recent quarterly report : >> >> On November 8, 2023, the Company's Board of Directors approved a plan to >> stop production and operations of residential renewable energy products, >> which include our OutBack and Mojave brands. Management determined that >> residential renewable energy products no longer fit with the company’s core >> strategy and resources will be better allocated toward commercial energy >> solutions for enterprise customers. The Company currently estimates that >> the total charges for these actions will amount to $23.5 million relating >> primarily to $22.6 million in non-cash charges primarily including >> inventory and an indefinite-lived intangible asset write-offs and $0.9 >> million in cash charges including employee severance and retention >> payments. The plan is expected to be completed in fiscal 2024. During the >> nine months of fiscal 2024, the Company recorded non-cash charges totaling >> $6.6 million primarily related to indefinite-lived intangible asset >> write-off and cash charges of $0.4 million related to severance costs. The >> Company also recorded a non-cash write off relating to inventories of $16.1 >> million, which was reported in cost of goods sold. >> >> To say I am curious about what is going on is an understatement. >> >> Aloha, >> >> Lou Russo >> Owner >> lou at spreesolarsystems.com >> 808 345 6762 >> Spree Solar Systems LLC >> CT-34322 >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, May 19, 2024 at 2:21 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I agree with you William >>> >>> While there could be all sorts of valid reasons for the downtime. >>> >>> What’s not acceptable is the lack of communication and notification that >>> it was going to happen or had happened. >>> >>> If they do have new owners they are not starting well. >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> >>> >>> On May 18, 2024, at 9:42 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> >>> Friends: >>> >>> >>> >>> I am sure you are all acutely aware, but this is not a trivial matter. >>> We depend on Optics for alerts and trouble shooting. We rely on Optics for >>> the history it records to analyze trends and evaluate production and >>> consumption. I doubt the data lost will back-fill. I sell Outback based in >>> great part on the Optics interface. For this system to be down for days at >>> a time is not a good sign at all. >>> >>> >>> >>> I will be lighting up the phone lines on Monday to find out what >>> happened and to emphasize this cannot become a pattern. >>> >>> >>> >>> William >>> >>> >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >>> Behalf Of *Lou Russo via RE-wrenches >>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 18, 2024 11:50 AM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Cc:* Lou Russo >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Optics >>> >>> >>> >>> All my sites are currently down. >>> >>> >>> >>> Not related but I tried to call tech support yesterday during business >>> hours and got message saying thank you for calling Outback Sales leave a >>> message. >>> >>> >>> >>> I do hope they are just in transition but I got a bad feeling about >>> this. I hope I am wrong. >>> >>> >>> >>> Has anyone heard for sure who bought them? I know they were bought from >>> talking to tech support but that is all I know and the Internet has 0 info >>> on a recent sale. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, May 18, 2024, 6:48 AM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> Mine all went down yesterday at noon MDT. I wonder if this has to do >>> with the sale of Outback? >>> >>> >>> Dan Fink >>> >>> Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC >>> >>> IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation >>> >>> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector >>> >>> NABCEP PV Associate >>> >>> d anbob88 at gmail.com >>> >>> 970-672-4342 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, May 18, 2024 at 10:17 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> Friends: >>> >>> >>> >>> 100% of our Optics sites are down since 11 AM yesterday. Is it just us? >>> >>> William Miller >>> Miller Solar.com >>> 805-438-5600 >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon May 20 20:17:49 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 18:17:49 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] UL batteries for open loop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A497A10-7A04-4645-B78C-DD1D205C5BAD@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon May 20 20:41:09 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 18:41:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <864E9A8F-E926-4E8D-8C81-0784224D5026@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Mon May 20 22:19:48 2024 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 22:19:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] UL batteries for open loop In-Reply-To: <46340A6B-1B69-4CF5-B1F5-3364ABA6C4A2@gmail.com> References: <46340A6B-1B69-4CF5-B1F5-3364ABA6C4A2@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, I have had good luck with Fortress eVaults with Radians. 3 eVault 18.4’s would do the trick. My only off grid customer running generator free in Vermont winters has 3 vaults and a Radian. John On Mon, May 20, 2024 at 7:22 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > HI All > > I got a call from a fellow installer who needs a UL listed lithium > battery. > Say 30-50 kwh. open loop as its working with existing OB radians. > Could be outside or inside > > It so confusing to find the right battery I’d thought I would ask what > folks are using/recommending. > > thanks > > jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon May 20 22:23:56 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 20:23:56 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] UL batteries for open loop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9FDEF7CD-455A-4742-9279-503F0024314E@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue May 21 10:22:43 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 21 May 2024 07:22:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics In-Reply-To: <864E9A8F-E926-4E8D-8C81-0784224D5026@gmail.com> References: <864E9A8F-E926-4E8D-8C81-0784224D5026@gmail.com> Message-ID: Anyone who fixes Outback's inability to run closed loop would be great. I think I have seen Outback claim it was coming soon for 5 years now. Hopefully they can get Optics up soon for my 3 clients. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [8]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [9] [8] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-05-20 5:41 pm, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > I don't know who's bigger or has more money. > > EG4 is a manufacturer > > Signature is a distributor > > Both are in the same town > > Some one on this site said EG4 said they bought OB. > > EG 4 makes more sense as they would have lots of Chinese manufacturing > contacts. If OB is coming out with new products, I'd expect they are > coming out of China. > I could easily see them partnering with any of the large Chinese > companies. > > I guess we will know soon. > > Jay > >> On May 20, 2024, at 6:16 PM, Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches >> wrote: > > At Intersolar (January) San Diego, I heard Bigbatterybox.com purchased > Outback. Since then, I've heard it may be Signature Solar. I am unsure > who purchased them, but with them being so close to Signature Solar, > that makes sense. I'm not sure who purchased them, but they have been > asleep at the wheel since then. They can't sell any product in Canada > because they have let their CSA certificates lapse. > > [1] > Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager > t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 > f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com > [2] [3] [4] [5] > > ------------------------- > > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only > for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or > privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use > of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is > prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the > sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. > ------------------------- > > On Mon, May 20, 2024 at 4:45 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches > wrote: > So here is the scoop, I got it that outback is moving to Dallas and > will still be a premium product, and yes the optics shut down had > something to do with the sale. Everyone hold on as they say they have > new products at SPI this fall. Keep your fingers crossed and let's all > wait patiently. > Fun times > > On Sun, May 19, 2024, 10:53 AM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches > wrote: > I started poking through EnerSys's (The most recent owner of Outback) > SEC filings in hopes to find who the new buyer is. I found nothing > related to the sale but found this in their most recent quarterly > report : > > On November 8, 2023, the Company's Board of Directors approved a plan > to stop production and operations of residential renewable energy > products, which include our OutBack and Mojave brands. Management > determined that residential renewable energy products no longer fit > with the company's core strategy and resources will be better allocated > toward commercial energy solutions for enterprise customers. The > Company currently estimates that the total charges for these actions > will amount to $23.5 million relating primarily to $22.6 million in > non-cash charges primarily including inventory and an indefinite-lived > intangible asset write-offs and $0.9 million in cash charges including > employee severance and retention payments. The plan is expected to be > completed in fiscal 2024. During the nine months of fiscal 2024, the > Company recorded non-cash charges totaling $6.6 million primarily > related to indefinite-lived intangible asset write-off and cash charges > of $0.4 million related to severance costs. The Company also recorded a > non-cash write off relating to inventories of $16.1 million, which was > reported in cost of goods sold. > > To say I am curious about what is going on is an understatement. > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > Owner > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > 808 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > On Sun, May 19, 2024 at 2:21 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > I agree with you William > > While there could be all sorts of valid reasons for the downtime. > > What's not acceptable is the lack of communication and notification > that it was going to happen or had happened. > > If they do have new owners they are not starting well. > > Jay > > On May 18, 2024, at 9:42 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Friends: > > I am sure you are all acutely aware, but this is not a trivial matter. > We depend on Optics for alerts and trouble shooting. We rely on Optics > for the history it records to analyze trends and evaluate production > and consumption. I doubt the data lost will back-fill. I sell Outback > based in great part on the Optics interface. For this system to be > down for days at a time is not a good sign at all. > > I will be lighting up the phone lines on Monday to find out what > happened and to emphasize this cannot become a pattern. > > William > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com [6] > > CA Lic. 773985 > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Lou Russo via RE-wrenches > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2024 11:50 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Lou Russo > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Optics > > All my sites are currently down. > > Not related but I tried to call tech support yesterday during business > hours and got message saying thank you for calling Outback Sales leave > a message. > > I do hope they are just in transition but I got a bad feeling about > this. I hope I am wrong. > > Has anyone heard for sure who bought them? I know they were bought from > talking to tech support but that is all I know and the Internet has 0 > info on a recent sale. > > On Sat, May 18, 2024, 6:48 AM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Mine all went down yesterday at noon MDT. I wonder if this has to do > with the sale of Outback? > > Dan Fink > > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > > NABCEP PV Associate > > danbob88 at gmail.com > > 970-672-4342 > > On Sat, May 18, 2024 at 10:17 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Friends: > > 100% of our Optics sites are down since 11 AM yesterday. Is it just us? > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com [7] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.rollsbattery.com [2] http://www.facebook.com/RollsBattery [3] https://www.youtube.com/RollsBatteryEngineering [4] https://www.linkedin.com/company/rolls-battery-engineering [5] http://www.instagram.com/RollsBattery [6] http://www.millersolar.com/ [7] http://www.millersolar.com [8] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [9] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Tue May 21 10:32:24 2024 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Tue, 21 May 2024 07:32:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics In-Reply-To: References: <864E9A8F-E926-4E8D-8C81-0784224D5026@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1716301944.63955021@webmail.finestplanet.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1716301363664cae3339806943950186 Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue May 21 10:38:52 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 21 May 2024 07:38:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics In-Reply-To: <1716301944.63955021@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <864E9A8F-E926-4E8D-8C81-0784224D5026@gmail.com> <1716301944.63955021@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: <6049659ae83afa24ea985b9ff7e14729@sti.net> by vincjwan [14] » Mon May 20, 2024 10:49 pm it's back online but without Graph and historic data Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [5]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [6] [5] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-05-21 7:32 am, Todd Cory via RE-wrenches wrote: > "OPTICS RE Back Online [1] > > * Report [2] > * Quote [3] > > Post [1] by Marshall Neipert [4] » 20 May 2024 20:32 > > Enersys has fixed the issue and Optics RE is back online." > > Except it is not for me. > > Todd > > On Tuesday, May 21, 2024 7:22am, "Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via > RE-wrenches" said: > > Anyone who fixes Outback's inability to run closed loop would be great. > > I think I have seen Outback claim it was coming soon for 5 years now. > Hopefully they can get Optics > up soon for my 3 clients. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > [5]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [6] [5] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text > 209 813 0060 > > On 2024-05-20 5:41 pm, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I don't know who's bigger or has more money. > > EG4 is a manufacturer > > Signature is a distributor > > Both are in the same town > > Some one on this site said EG4 said they bought OB. > > EG 4 makes more sense as they would have lots of Chinese manufacturing > contacts. If OB is coming out with new products, I'd expect they are > coming out of China. > I could easily see them partnering with any of the large Chinese > companies. > > I guess we will know soon. > > Jay > > On May 20, 2024, at 6:16 PM, Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > At Intersolar (January) San Diego, I heard Bigbatterybox.com purchased > Outback. Since then, I've heard it may be Signature Solar. I am unsure > who purchased them, but with them being so close to Signature Solar, > that makes sense. I'm not sure who purchased them, but they have been > asleep at the wheel since then. They can't sell any product in Canada > because they have let their CSA certificates lapse. > > [7] > Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager > t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 > f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com > [8] [9] [10] [11] > > ------------------------- > > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only > for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or > privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use > of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is > prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the > sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. > ------------------------- > > On Mon, May 20, 2024 at 4:45 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches > wrote: > So here is the scoop, I got it that outback is moving to Dallas and > will still be a premium product, and yes the optics shut down had > something to do with the sale. Everyone hold on as they say they have > new products at SPI this fall. Keep your fingers crossed and let's all > wait patiently. > Fun times > > On Sun, May 19, 2024, 10:53 AM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches > wrote: > I started poking through EnerSys's (The most recent owner of Outback) > SEC filings in hopes to find who the new buyer is. I found nothing > related to the sale but found this in their most recent quarterly > report : > > On November 8, 2023, the Company's Board of Directors approved a plan > to stop production and operations of residential renewable energy > products, which include our OutBack and Mojave brands. Management > determined that residential renewable energy products no longer fit > with the company's core strategy and resources will be better allocated > toward commercial energy solutions for enterprise customers. The > Company currently estimates that the total charges for these actions > will amount to $23.5 million relating primarily to $22.6 million in > non-cash charges primarily including inventory and an indefinite-lived > intangible asset write-offs and $0.9 million in cash charges including > employee severance and retention payments. The plan is expected to be > completed in fiscal 2024. During the nine months of fiscal 2024, the > Company recorded non-cash charges totaling $6.6 million primarily > related to indefinite-lived intangible asset write-off and cash charges > of $0.4 million related to severance costs. The Company also recorded a > non-cash write off relating to inventories of $16.1 million, which was > reported in cost of goods sold. > > To say I am curious about what is going on is an understatement. > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > Owner > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > 808 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > On Sun, May 19, 2024 at 2:21 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > I agree with you William > > While there could be all sorts of valid reasons for the downtime. > > What's not acceptable is the lack of communication and notification > that it was going to happen or had happened. > > If they do have new owners they are not starting well. > > Jay > > On May 18, 2024, at 9:42 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Friends: > > I am sure you are all acutely aware, but this is not a trivial matter. > We depend on Optics for alerts and trouble shooting. We rely on Optics > for the history it records to analyze trends and evaluate production > and consumption. I doubt the data lost will back-fill. I sell Outback > based in great part on the Optics interface. For this system to be > down for days at a time is not a good sign at all. > > I will be lighting up the phone lines on Monday to find out what > happened and to emphasize this cannot become a pattern. > > William > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com [12] > > CA Lic. 773985 > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Lou Russo via RE-wrenches > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2024 11:50 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Lou Russo > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Optics > > All my sites are currently down. > > Not related but I tried to call tech support yesterday during business > hours and got message saying thank you for calling Outback Sales leave > a message. > > I do hope they are just in transition but I got a bad feeling about > this. I hope I am wrong. > > Has anyone heard for sure who bought them? I know they were bought from > talking to tech support but that is all I know and the Internet has 0 > info on a recent sale. > > On Sat, May 18, 2024, 6:48 AM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Mine all went down yesterday at noon MDT. I wonder if this has to do > with the sale of Outback? > > Dan Fink > > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > > NABCEP PV Associate > > danbob88 at gmail.com > > 970-672-4342 > > On Sat, May 18, 2024 at 10:17 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Friends: > > 100% of our Optics sites are down since 11 AM yesterday. Is it just us? > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com [13] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] https://forum.outbackpower.com/viewtopic.php?p=106504#p106504 [2] https://forum.outbackpower.com/app.php/post/106504/report [3] https://forum.outbackpower.com/posting.php?mode=quote&p=106504 [4] https://forum.outbackpower.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=20772 [5] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [6] https://offgridsolar1.com/ [7] http://www.rollsbattery.com [8] http://www.facebook.com/RollsBattery [9] https://www.youtube.com/RollsBatteryEngineering [10] https://www.linkedin.com/company/rolls-battery-engineering [11] http://www.instagram.com/RollsBattery [12] http://www.millersolar.com/ [13] http://www.millersolar.com [14] https://forum.outbackpower.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=11609 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1716301363664cae3339806943950186 Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue May 21 16:51:40 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 21 May 2024 14:51:40 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Message-ID: <1FC32C84-1C00-427A-87C2-D23AABE094CE@gmail.com> I was talking to signature solar today. Signature solar and EG4 are sister companies. I don’t have info if one owns the other or if they are equal partners? They did admit they bought OB. But didn’t know if signature or EG4 bought them. Jay From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Wed May 22 09:50:35 2024 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Wed, 22 May 2024 08:50:35 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Will SolarEdge optimizers work with other string inverters? Message-ID: <03b001daac4f$05989310$10c9b930$@solarcentex.com> One of our customers who suffered severe storm/lightning damage will be getting an upgrade. I know he'll ask me to consider replacing the SolarEdge StorEdge 7600 with a Sol-Ark 15 and other new lithium storage so he can back up more equipment. So the question is whether the SolarEdge optimizers on the roof can remain in place? Will the DC to DC converter perform its optimizing capability without the SolarEdge inverter? I do not know how the RSD functionality is triggered.is it PLC over the conductors and perhaps I lose that? Of course I'd need to consider this for the resi application. Can't say I've ever seen this asked before and figure somebody here might know or be as curious. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 136365 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Wed May 22 10:16:58 2024 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Wed, 22 May 2024 08:16:58 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Will SolarEdge optimizers work with other string inverters? In-Reply-To: <03b001daac4f$05989310$10c9b930$@solarcentex.com> References: <03b001daac4f$05989310$10c9b930$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: The Solaredge "Key" and "Safety & Monitoring Interface" have cut sheets dated 2014 and 2016 - so take their feasibility with a grain of salt - indicate that at some point SE optimized systems could be paired to third party inverters. Based on a quick read it looks like this technology requires optimizers that have "IndOP" built in (independent optimization) and if I was to venture a guess that's not what is on the roof you're looking to work on. https://www.solaredge.com/uk/products/retrofit/solaredge-key#/ https://www.solaredge.com/products/retrofit/safety-and-monitoring-interface#/ https://www.solaredge.com/products/retrofit/power-optimizer-indop#/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tom.mccalmont at pairedpower.com Wed May 22 10:16:45 2024 From: tom.mccalmont at pairedpower.com (Tom McCalmont) Date: Wed, 22 May 2024 07:16:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Will SolarEdge optimizers work with other string inverters? In-Reply-To: <03b001daac4f$05989310$10c9b930$@solarcentex.com> References: <03b001daac4f$05989310$10c9b930$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: No, you need to replace the SolarEdge inverter to match with the existing optimizers. They will not work with Sol-Ark and vice versa. Tom McCalmont CEO, Paired Power pairedpower.com | LinkedIn (650) 701-7247 > On May 22, 2024, at 6:50 AM, Scot Arey via RE-wrenches wrote: > > One of our customers who suffered severe storm/lightning damage will be getting an upgrade. I know he’ll ask me to consider replacing the SolarEdge StorEdge 7600 with a Sol-Ark 15 and other new lithium storage so he can back up more equipment. > > So the question is whether the SolarEdge optimizers on the roof can remain in place? Will the DC to DC converter perform its optimizing capability without the SolarEdge inverter? I do not know how the RSD functionality is triggered…is it PLC over the conductors and perhaps I lose that? Of course I’d need to consider this for the resi application. > > Can’t say I’ve ever seen this asked before and figure somebody here might know or be as curious. > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirpal at oregonsolarworks.com Wed May 22 10:28:18 2024 From: kirpal at oregonsolarworks.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Wed, 22 May 2024 07:28:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Will SolarEdge optimizers work with other string inverters? In-Reply-To: References: <03b001daac4f$05989310$10c9b930$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: You could always AC couple the SolarEdge system via the SolArk. Gives you optimization and rapid shutdown and access to that solar array even when the grid is down. Instead of using the StoreEdge - you could use one of the basic SolarEdge models which are cheaper. Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT#25 Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 On Wed, May 22, 2024 at 7:21 AM Tom McCalmont via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > No, you need to replace the SolarEdge inverter to match with the existing > optimizers. They will not work with Sol-Ark and vice versa. > > > *Tom McCalmont*CEO, Paired Power > pairedpower.com | LinkedIn > > (650) 701-7247 > > On May 22, 2024, at 6:50 AM, Scot Arey via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > One of our customers who suffered severe storm/lightning damage will be > getting an upgrade. I know he’ll ask me to consider replacing the SolarEdge > StorEdge 7600 with a Sol-Ark 15 and other new lithium storage so he can > back up more equipment. > > So the question is whether the SolarEdge optimizers on the roof can remain > in place? Will the DC to DC converter perform its optimizing capability > without the SolarEdge inverter? I do not know how the RSD functionality is > triggered…is it PLC over the conductors and perhaps I lose that? Of course > I’d need to consider this for the resi application. > > Can’t say I’ve ever seen this asked before and figure somebody here might > know or be as curious. > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Wed May 22 11:01:37 2024 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Wed, 22 May 2024 10:01:37 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Will SolarEdge optimizers work with other string inverters? In-Reply-To: References: <03b001daac4f$05989310$10c9b930$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: <051201daac58$f22c9b00$d685d100$@solarcentex.com> Yes, AC-coupling seems to be the best path. Thank you for responding. Scot From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Kirpal Khalsa via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2024 9:28 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Kirpal Khalsa Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Will SolarEdge optimizers work with other string inverters? You could always AC couple the SolarEdge system via the SolArk. Gives you optimization and rapid shutdown and access to that solar array even when the grid is down. Instead of using the StoreEdge - you could use one of the basic SolarEdge models which are cheaper. Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT#25 Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 On Wed, May 22, 2024 at 7:21 AM Tom McCalmont via RE-wrenches > wrote: No, you need to replace the SolarEdge inverter to match with the existing optimizers. They will not work with Sol-Ark and vice versa. Tom McCalmont CEO, Paired Power pairedpower.com | LinkedIn (650) 701-7247 On May 22, 2024, at 6:50 AM, Scot Arey via RE-wrenches > wrote: One of our customers who suffered severe storm/lightning damage will be getting an upgrade. I know he’ll ask me to consider replacing the SolarEdge StorEdge 7600 with a Sol-Ark 15 and other new lithium storage so he can back up more equipment. So the question is whether the SolarEdge optimizers on the roof can remain in place? Will the DC to DC converter perform its optimizing capability without the SolarEdge inverter? I do not know how the RSD functionality is triggered…is it PLC over the conductors and perhaps I lose that? Of course I’d need to consider this for the resi application. Can’t say I’ve ever seen this asked before and figure somebody here might know or be as curious. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Thu May 23 14:47:00 2024 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Thu, 23 May 2024 12:47:00 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Floating PV arrays In-Reply-To: <0e5c3ecc-a034-44b8-a9eb-09a15654bfcb@psln.com> References: <069aafe04cd3f594bcb40914cdd38dfd@sti.net> <0e5c3ecc-a034-44b8-a9eb-09a15654bfcb@psln.com> Message-ID: <00dd01daad41$98fe8ef0$cafbacd0$@OasisMontana.com> Anybody know where a residential-sized floating array (for twelve Canadian Solar 410W modules) might be had? All the companies I’m contacting say I’m too small a fishie to lay out a line… Please feel free to contact me off-list. Thanks. Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Thu May 23 19:18:25 2024 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Thu, 23 May 2024 23:18:25 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Primo with tigos Arc fault issue Message-ID: Has anyone had issues with Tigo TS4AF rapid shut down devices along with their transmitter, causing arc fault codes with a Fronius Primo inverter? Fronius tells me I need to use AP smart devices. Hmmm. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Thu May 23 20:26:14 2024 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Thu, 23 May 2024 20:26:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Primo with tigos Arc fault issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jeremy! We have encountered this his issue years ago with the AO and Fronius suggested we deactivate the arc fault setting. It works, but in order to do so, they give you a special passcode to input. Not an ideal solution. Arc fault detection is not worth compromising . IMO avoid this combination by all means. Kindly, Chris On Thu, May 23, 2024 at 7:18 PM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Has anyone had issues with Tigo TS4AF rapid shut down devices along with > their transmitter, causing arc fault codes with a Fronius Primo inverter? > Fronius tells me I need to use AP smart devices. Hmmm. > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Fri May 24 08:12:12 2024 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 08:12:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Primo with tigos Arc fault issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This winter we were fixing up a system with a fronius primo inverter and adding rapid shutdown. Fronius very much recommended against using Tigo. They recommended we use Fire Raptors. They have been working fine. Cheers, Dave On Thu, May 23, 2024, 8:27 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Jeremy! > > We have encountered this his issue years ago with the AO and Fronius > suggested we deactivate the arc fault setting. It works, but in order to do > so, they give you a special passcode to input. Not an ideal solution. Arc > fault detection is not worth compromising . IMO avoid this combination by > all means. > > Kindly, > > Chris > > > On Thu, May 23, 2024 at 7:18 PM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Has anyone had issues with Tigo TS4AF rapid shut down devices along with >> their transmitter, causing arc fault codes with a Fronius Primo inverter? >> Fronius tells me I need to use AP smart devices. Hmmm. >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> Solar Installation / Design >> All Solar, Inc. >> 1453 M St. >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Fri May 24 09:19:49 2024 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 08:19:49 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Primo with tigos Arc fault issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <020301daaddd$0e62e1f0$2b28a5d0$@solarcentex.com> A long time ago when we were using Sunpreme bi-facial frameless modules, those modules caused a much higher incidence rate for the dreaded 240 arc fault code on Fronius inverters. Fronius was good about addressing and tweaked their algorithms (I wish I knew what that really meant…) and the incidences decreased. So when I saw this, it brought back memories and got me thinking if Fronius just has a hair-trigger fault process. Fronius Primo still the only 240-volt string inverter I can use for ground mounts with 1,000volt rating. Maybe others out there today that I don’t know about but the 15KW and 12.5 string inverter was so important for us in the past. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2024 7:26 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Chris Sparadeo Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Primo with tigos Arc fault issue Hi Jeremy! We have encountered this his issue years ago with the AO and Fronius suggested we deactivate the arc fault setting. It works, but in order to do so, they give you a special passcode to input. Not an ideal solution. Arc fault detection is not worth compromising . IMO avoid this combination by all means. Kindly, Chris On Thu, May 23, 2024 at 7:18 PM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches > wrote: Has anyone had issues with Tigo TS4AF rapid shut down devices along with their transmitter, causing arc fault codes with a Fronius Primo inverter? Fronius tells me I need to use AP smart devices. Hmmm. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 136365 bytes Desc: not available URL: From will.white at fluke.com Fri May 24 11:50:38 2024 From: will.white at fluke.com (White, Will) Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 15:50:38 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] [EXTERNAL] Re: Optics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I ran into a guy from EG4 at RE+ Texas last week. He confirmed that Outback was purchased by the parent company of EG4 and Signature Solar. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Kirk Bailey via RE-wrenches Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2024 3:24 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Kirk Bailey Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [RE-wrenches] Optics CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. The rumor I've heard is EG4 purchased them. Kirk Bailey www.abundantsolar.com On Saturday, May 18, 2024, Lou Russo via RE-wrenches > wrote: All my sites are currently down. Not related but I tried to call tech support yesterday during business hours and got message saying thank you for calling Outback Sales leave a message. I do hope they are just in transition but I got a bad feeling about this. I hope I am wrong. Has anyone heard for sure who bought them? I know they were bought from talking to tech support but that is all I know and the Internet has 0 info on a recent sale. On Sat, May 18, 2024, 6:48 AM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches > wrote: Mine all went down yesterday at noon MDT. I wonder if this has to do with the sale of Outback? Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate danbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Sat, May 18, 2024 at 10:17 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: Friends: 100% of our Optics sites are down since 11 AM yesterday. Is it just us? William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ________________________________ Please be advised that this email may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us by email by replying to the sender and delete this message. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Fri May 24 12:10:00 2024 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 11:10:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] I know you've all said, "I told you so..." SolarEdge... Message-ID: <031601daadf4$d692a090$83b7e1b0$@solarcentex.com> SolarEdge.I keep saying they fixed their reliability issues, but the latest storms in Central Texas leave me again with frustration. Some systems worked, others did not. Worst was ones that were surge-sensitive as grid utility power was restored so a system in backup yesterday turns into a service call with the grid back, as a finicky BUI transfer switch didn't go back to grid power. Make the run to the affected customer and wait and wait and wait for tech support, only for them to finally take my call after I've packed everything up (how long must we wait for a call pickup?) and the first question is "send us pics of the installation." Of course that is to grade the work and despite me saying we replaced a comms card in November, and don't you have that picture still? I get the tier-1 blocking before I get to tier-2. I've had a lot of final straws with SolarEdge, each time assuaged by a "we're fixing reliability.we've improved tech support" but objectively, this company drives most of my reliability frustration. Intra-"box" comms are so finicky. I've told them they have Backup Interface Units that get stuck between grid and backup during the rapid on and off utility outages that come with many storms and they try to say "we have not seen that" but I tell them I gave five examples just from me! Vent over.know many of you have left SolarEdge and I suppose its stock price a manifestation of that. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 136365 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Fri May 24 12:37:00 2024 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 12:37:00 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] I know you've all said, "I told you so..." SolarEdge... In-Reply-To: <031601daadf4$d692a090$83b7e1b0$@solarcentex.com> References: <031601daadf4$d692a090$83b7e1b0$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: I find tier one to be extremely frustrating. Often times they’re not doing much more than reading off of a published troubleshooting sheet or an app note to try this or that. Fortunately, I have an inside guy, a friend of a friend, who I can call directly to get them to look into stuff for me. That’s the main reason I haven’t abandoned them. I think their service really went downhill when they switched to the SetApp platform. That’s when wait times became outrageously long on the phone for tier 1. They really oughta figure out a way to have some tier 2 people ready to take the call over at the first hint of tier 1 cluelessness. *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 On Fri, May 24, 2024 at 12:12 PM Scot Arey via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > SolarEdge…I keep saying they fixed their reliability issues, but the > latest storms in Central Texas leave me again with frustration. Some > systems worked, others did not. Worst was ones that were surge-sensitive as > grid utility power was restored so a system in backup yesterday turns into > a service call with the grid back, as a finicky BUI transfer switch didn’t > go back to grid power. > > Make the run to the affected customer and wait and wait and wait for tech > support, only for them to finally take my call after I’ve packed everything > up (how long must we wait for a call pickup?) and the first question is > “send us pics of the installation.” Of course that is to grade the work and > despite me saying we replaced a comms card in November, and don’t you have > that picture still? I get the tier-1 blocking before I get to tier-2. > > I’ve had a lot of final straws with SolarEdge, each time assuaged by a > “we’re fixing reliability…we’ve improved tech support” but objectively, > this company drives most of my reliability frustration. Intra-“box” comms > are so finicky. I’ve told them they have Backup Interface Units that get > stuck between grid and backup during the rapid on and off utility outages > that come with many storms and they try to say “we have not seen that” but > I tell them I gave five examples just from me! > > Vent over…know many of you have left SolarEdge and I suppose its stock > price a manifestation of that. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 136365 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri May 24 15:23:44 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 12:23:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] I know you've all said, "I told you so..." SolarEdge... In-Reply-To: <031601daadf4$d692a090$83b7e1b0$@solarcentex.com> References: <031601daadf4$d692a090$83b7e1b0$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: Well to me the final, final straw is their stock price losing 2/3 its value in a year. I tell all of my clients if you ever have to do roof solar, you should use a central inverter and not ever put electronics on a roof. Bad enough to put solar panels up there! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-05-24 9:10 am, Scot Arey via RE-wrenches wrote: > SolarEdge…I keep saying they fixed their reliability issues, but the > latest storms in Central Texas leave me again with frustration. Some > systems worked, others did not. Worst was ones that were > surge-sensitive as grid utility power was restored so a system in > backup yesterday turns into a service call with the grid back, as a > finicky BUI transfer switch didn't go back to grid power. > > Make the run to the affected customer and wait and wait and wait for > tech support, only for them to finally take my call after I've packed > everything up (how long must we wait for a call pickup?) and the first > question is "send us pics of the installation." Of course that is to > grade the work and despite me saying we replaced a comms card in > November, and don't you have that picture still? I get the tier-1 > blocking before I get to tier-2. > > I've had a lot of final straws with SolarEdge, each time assuaged by a > "we're fixing reliability…we've improved tech support" but objectively, > this company drives most of my reliability frustration. Intra-"box" > comms are so finicky. I've told them they have Backup Interface Units > that get stuck between grid and backup during the rapid on and off > utility outages that come with many storms and they try to say "we have > not seen that" but I tell them I gave five examples just from me! > > Vent over…know many of you have left SolarEdge and I suppose its stock > price a manifestation of that. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 3ee8d3c1.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 27775 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri May 24 15:45:22 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 12:45:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] I know you've all said, "I told you so..." SolarEdge... In-Reply-To: References: <031601daadf4$d692a090$83b7e1b0$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: Tell that to your local fire fighters. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Fri, May 24, 2024 at 12:25 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Well to me the final, final straw is their stock price losing 2/3 its > value in a year. > > I tell all of my clients if you ever have to do roof solar, you should use > a central inverter and not ever put electronics on a roof. Bad enough to > put solar panels up there! > > > > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2024-05-24 9:10 am, Scot Arey via RE-wrenches wrote: > > SolarEdge…I keep saying they fixed their reliability issues, but the > latest storms in Central Texas leave me again with frustration. Some > systems worked, others did not. Worst was ones that were surge-sensitive as > grid utility power was restored so a system in backup yesterday turns into > a service call with the grid back, as a finicky BUI transfer switch didn’t > go back to grid power. > > Make the run to the affected customer and wait and wait and wait for tech > support, only for them to finally take my call after I’ve packed everything > up (how long must we wait for a call pickup?) and the first question is > “send us pics of the installation.” Of course that is to grade the work and > despite me saying we replaced a comms card in November, and don’t you have > that picture still? I get the tier-1 blocking before I get to tier-2. > > I’ve had a lot of final straws with SolarEdge, each time assuaged by a > “we’re fixing reliability…we’ve improved tech support” but objectively, > this company drives most of my reliability frustration. Intra-“box” comms > are so finicky. I’ve told them they have Backup Interface Units that get > stuck between grid and backup during the rapid on and off utility outages > that come with many storms and they try to say “we have not seen that” but > I tell them I gave five examples just from me! > > Vent over…know many of you have left SolarEdge and I suppose its stock > price a manifestation of that. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 3ee8d3c1.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 27775 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri May 24 16:12:32 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 13:12:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] I know you've all said, "I told you so..." SolarEdge... In-Reply-To: References: <031601daadf4$d692a090$83b7e1b0$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: Sorry but my previous post went out before I finished my thoughts. I know MLPE electronics can be a pain. I hated the RSS requirements when first introduced. However solar energy sources pose unique safety concerns. There is no safety disconnect on the sun. IMHO, having a means to safely work on high voltage PV circuits during daylight hours is worth the added cost and inconvenience. With all due respect. Rant off. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Fri, May 24, 2024 at 12:25 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Well to me the final, final straw is their stock price losing 2/3 its > value in a year. > > I tell all of my clients if you ever have to do roof solar, you should use > a central inverter and not ever put electronics on a roof. Bad enough to > put solar panels up there! > > > > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2024-05-24 9:10 am, Scot Arey via RE-wrenches wrote: > > SolarEdge…I keep saying they fixed their reliability issues, but the > latest storms in Central Texas leave me again with frustration. Some > systems worked, others did not. Worst was ones that were surge-sensitive as > grid utility power was restored so a system in backup yesterday turns into > a service call with the grid back, as a finicky BUI transfer switch didn’t > go back to grid power. > > Make the run to the affected customer and wait and wait and wait for tech > support, only for them to finally take my call after I’ve packed everything > up (how long must we wait for a call pickup?) and the first question is > “send us pics of the installation.” Of course that is to grade the work and > despite me saying we replaced a comms card in November, and don’t you have > that picture still? I get the tier-1 blocking before I get to tier-2. > > I’ve had a lot of final straws with SolarEdge, each time assuaged by a > “we’re fixing reliability…we’ve improved tech support” but objectively, > this company drives most of my reliability frustration. Intra-“box” comms > are so finicky. I’ve told them they have Backup Interface Units that get > stuck between grid and backup during the rapid on and off utility outages > that come with many storms and they try to say “we have not seen that” but > I tell them I gave five examples just from me! > > Vent over…know many of you have left SolarEdge and I suppose its stock > price a manifestation of that. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 3ee8d3c1.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 27775 bytes Desc: not available URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Fri May 24 16:38:10 2024 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 15:38:10 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] I know you've all said, "I told you so..." SolarEdge... In-Reply-To: References: <031601daadf4$d692a090$83b7e1b0$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: <01c301daae1a$4b3a8500$e1af8f00$@solarcentex.com> This wasn’t an RSD rant (and thank gosh NEC2023 clarifies and reduces some silly RSD requirements), but a rant over the damn finick-iness of the BUI and multi-inverter setups from SE. I’ve developed a nervous tik that comes on with lighting and storms and hits a peak when phone rings from customer immediately after the storm…heck, even the surge from the grid utility coming back seemed to freak out the one I was at yesterday which was operating fine in backup mode. Can’t say many didn’t say, “I told you so.” Enjoy your weekends. Scot From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of William Miller via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, May 24, 2024 3:13 PM To: RE-wrenches ; offgridsolar at sti.net Cc: William Miller Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] I know you've all said, "I told you so..." SolarEdge... Sorry but my previous post went out before I finished my thoughts. I know MLPE electronics can be a pain. I hated the RSS requirements when first introduced. However solar energy sources pose unique safety concerns. There is no safety disconnect on the sun. IMHO, having a means to safely work on high voltage PV circuits during daylight hours is worth the added cost and inconvenience. With all due respect. Rant off. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Fri, May 24, 2024 at 12:25 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches > wrote: Well to me the final, final straw is their stock price losing 2/3 its value in a year. I tell all of my clients if you ever have to do roof solar, you should use a central inverter and not ever put electronics on a roof. Bad enough to put solar panels up there! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" https://offgridsolar1.com/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-05-24 9:10 am, Scot Arey via RE-wrenches wrote: SolarEdge…I keep saying they fixed their reliability issues, but the latest storms in Central Texas leave me again with frustration. Some systems worked, others did not. Worst was ones that were surge-sensitive as grid utility power was restored so a system in backup yesterday turns into a service call with the grid back, as a finicky BUI transfer switch didn’t go back to grid power. Make the run to the affected customer and wait and wait and wait for tech support, only for them to finally take my call after I’ve packed everything up (how long must we wait for a call pickup?) and the first question is “send us pics of the installation.” Of course that is to grade the work and despite me saying we replaced a comms card in November, and don’t you have that picture still? I get the tier-1 blocking before I get to tier-2. I’ve had a lot of final straws with SolarEdge, each time assuaged by a “we’re fixing reliability…we’ve improved tech support” but objectively, this company drives most of my reliability frustration. Intra-“box” comms are so finicky. I’ve told them they have Backup Interface Units that get stuck between grid and backup during the rapid on and off utility outages that come with many storms and they try to say “we have not seen that” but I tell them I gave five examples just from me! Vent over…know many of you have left SolarEdge and I suppose its stock price a manifestation of that. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 27775 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kirpal at oregonsolarworks.com Fri May 24 16:56:44 2024 From: kirpal at oregonsolarworks.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 13:56:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] I know you've all said, "I told you so..." SolarEdge... In-Reply-To: <01c301daae1a$4b3a8500$e1af8f00$@solarcentex.com> References: <031601daadf4$d692a090$83b7e1b0$@solarcentex.com> <01c301daae1a$4b3a8500$e1af8f00$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: Friends - are you installing surge arrestors on your PV input conductors and grid side AC conductors to hopefully prevent some of the surge and lightning related damages to inverters? We use SolarEdge often and have other issues which frustrate us but not often surge related issues. We usually will install Midnite MNSPD devices on either side of inverter (DC and AC) and surge related issues have been very minimal to non-existent. I know many of you are in areas with much higher incidences of lightning and grid tribulations than our area. It does add more expense to the systems up front but, hopefully it saves significantly more expense and frustration down the line. Yes no doubt SolarEdge has a LOT of room for customer service improvement yet, some of the benefits of their MLPE even when installed on a roof can be really helpful and save a lot of time troubleshooting that a string inverter can't ever offer. And yes it is very nice to work on equipment that isn't hot until you choose to make it so. Enjoy the weekend! Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 On Fri, May 24, 2024 at 1:39 PM Scot Arey via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > This wasn’t an RSD rant (and thank gosh NEC2023 clarifies and reduces some > silly RSD requirements), but a rant over the damn finick-iness of the BUI > and multi-inverter setups from SE. > > I’ve developed a nervous tik that comes on with lighting and storms and > hits a peak when phone rings from customer immediately after the > storm…heck, even the surge from the grid utility coming back seemed to > freak out the one I was at yesterday which was operating fine in backup > mode. > > Can’t say many didn’t say, “I told you so.” > > Enjoy your weekends. Scot > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *William Miller via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Friday, May 24, 2024 3:13 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches ; > offgridsolar at sti.net > *Cc:* William Miller > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] I know you've all said, "I told you so..." > SolarEdge... > > > > Sorry but my previous post went out before I finished my thoughts. > > > > I know MLPE electronics can be a pain. I hated the RSS requirements when > first introduced. However solar energy sources pose unique safety concerns. > There is no safety disconnect on the sun. IMHO, having a means to safely > work on high voltage PV circuits during daylight hours is worth the added > cost and inconvenience. > > With all due respect. Rant off. > > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > > > > On Fri, May 24, 2024 at 12:25 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > Well to me the final, final straw is their stock price losing 2/3 its > value in a year. > > > > I tell all of my clients if you ever have to do roof solar, you should use > a central inverter and not ever put electronics on a roof. Bad enough to > put solar panels up there! > > > > > > > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* > > *"we go where powerlines don't"* > > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > > *e-mail **offgridsolar at sti.net* > > *text 209 813 0060* > > > > On 2024-05-24 9:10 am, Scot Arey via RE-wrenches wrote: > > SolarEdge…I keep saying they fixed their reliability issues, but the > latest storms in Central Texas leave me again with frustration. Some > systems worked, others did not. Worst was ones that were surge-sensitive as > grid utility power was restored so a system in backup yesterday turns into > a service call with the grid back, as a finicky BUI transfer switch didn’t > go back to grid power. > > Make the run to the affected customer and wait and wait and wait for tech > support, only for them to finally take my call after I’ve packed everything > up (how long must we wait for a call pickup?) and the first question is > “send us pics of the installation.” Of course that is to grade the work and > despite me saying we replaced a comms card in November, and don’t you have > that picture still? I get the tier-1 blocking before I get to tier-2. > > I’ve had a lot of final straws with SolarEdge, each time assuaged by a > “we’re fixing reliability…we’ve improved tech support” but objectively, > this company drives most of my reliability frustration. Intra-“box” comms > are so finicky. I’ve told them they have Backup Interface Units that get > stuck between grid and backup during the rapid on and off utility outages > that come with many storms and they try to say “we have not seen that” but > I tell them I gave five examples just from me! > > Vent over…know many of you have left SolarEdge and I suppose its stock > price a manifestation of that. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 27775 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri May 24 18:20:08 2024 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 18:20:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Tech Support Message-ID: <92986dffbb2670607937728b06bf9866@redwoodalliance.org> Hello All, With the sale of Outback, their tech support seems to have disappeared. Around the time of the sale, tech support had agreed to send me a new control stack for a Radian. After a long delay, they did send it, but were quick to remind me to return the core. When the new control stack was installed, the inverter would not work. The error message was AC Out Voltage Low. I put the old one back in and returned the one they sent. There is no one to talk to, and no one answers email. Do you know if the new owners are planning to honor product warranty? Is tech support coming back? This is a pretty rough transition. It will likely leave a number of people in the dark. Fun Times Indeed! Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri May 24 18:40:51 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 15:40:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Tech Support In-Reply-To: <92986dffbb2670607937728b06bf9866@redwoodalliance.org> References: <92986dffbb2670607937728b06bf9866@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Marshall Neipert [3]Forum MemberPosts: 11 [4]Joined: Mon May 20, 2024 10:07 amMy RE system: President of Outback Power https://www.linkedin.com/in/neipertContact: Contact Marshall Neipert [5] You should ask him Drake! He is on the forum and responding to some emails. Here is in a link that he is taking suggestions on https://forum.outbackpower.com/viewtopic.php?t=18726 Kind of weird that the president is using a linkedin address but it is their company now. That is the main reason I responded on the Solar edge stock. You have to stay in business to be in business. With that price hit and an address in Isreal right now, beware! I know very little about roof mounted electronics because I do not go on roofs. I totally get it that most here do. I still have my rights I think! FRIDAY ! Stay Safe ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-05-24 3:20 pm, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hello All, > > With the sale of Outback, their tech support seems to have disappeared. > Around the time of the sale, tech support had agreed to send me a new > control stack for a Radian. After a long delay, they did send it, but > were quick to remind me to return the core. > > When the new control stack was installed, the inverter would not work. > The error message was AC Out Voltage Low. I put the old one back in and > returned the one they sent. There is no one to talk to, and no one > answers email. > > Do you know if the new owners are planning to honor product warranty? > Is tech support coming back? > > This is a pretty rough transition. It will likely leave a number of > people in the dark. > > Fun Times Indeed! > > Drake > > _Drake Chamberlin_ > > _Athens Electric LLC_ > > _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ > > _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ [3] https://forum.outbackpower.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=20772 [4] https://forum.outbackpower.com/search.php?author_id=20772&sr=posts [5] https://forum.outbackpower.com/viewtopic.php?t=18726# -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri May 24 18:58:17 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 16:58:17 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Tech Support In-Reply-To: <92986dffbb2670607937728b06bf9866@redwoodalliance.org> References: <92986dffbb2670607937728b06bf9866@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <0A1EE3D3-F79B-42AD-9F94-2D407EA94EE9@gmail.com> Hi Drake, What it says to me is that they either fired everyone or said move to tx. I’ve always joked that if the potential project I’m to work on starts badly it never gets better. I still don’t understand why the owners of EG4 would by a legacy inverter company? Jay > On May 24, 2024, at 4:20 PM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hello All, > > With the sale of Outback, their tech support seems to have disappeared. Around the time of the sale, tech support had agreed to send me a new control stack for a Radian. After a long delay, they did send it, but were quick to remind me to return the core. > > When the new control stack was installed, the inverter would not work. The error message was AC Out Voltage Low. I put the old one back in and returned the one they sent. There is no one to talk to, and no one answers email. > > Do you know if the new owners are planning to honor product warranty? Is tech support coming back? > > This is a pretty rough transition. It will likely leave a number of people in the dark. > > Fun Times Indeed! > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > Athens Electric LLC > > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri May 24 19:14:52 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 24 May 2024 16:14:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Tech Support In-Reply-To: <0A1EE3D3-F79B-42AD-9F94-2D407EA94EE9@gmail.com> References: <92986dffbb2670607937728b06bf9866@redwoodalliance.org> <0A1EE3D3-F79B-42AD-9F94-2D407EA94EE9@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, maybe the price was right? Obvious the old parent corporation wanted into commercial solar. As for EG4 maybe the old lawyer shark saying about eat or be eaten. It was about 5 years back that Schneider sold all commercial solar and it helped their stock. Crossing fingers! Happy hour soon! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-05-24 3:58 pm, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Drake, > > What it says to me is that they either fired everyone or said move to > tx. > > I've always joked that if the potential project I'm to work on starts > badly it never gets better. > > I still don't understand why the owners of EG4 would by a legacy > inverter company? > > Jay > >> On May 24, 2024, at 4:20 PM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> Hello All, >> >> With the sale of Outback, their tech support seems to have >> disappeared. Around the time of the sale, tech support had agreed to >> send me a new control stack for a Radian. After a long delay, they did >> send it, but were quick to remind me to return the core. >> >> When the new control stack was installed, the inverter would not work. >> The error message was AC Out Voltage Low. I put the old one back in >> and returned the one they sent. There is no one to talk to, and no one >> answers email. >> >> Do you know if the new owners are planning to honor product warranty? >> Is tech support coming back? >> >> This is a pretty rough transition. It will likely leave a number of >> people in the dark. >> >> Fun Times Indeed! >> >> Drake >> >> _Drake Chamberlin_ >> >> _Athens Electric LLC_ >> >> _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ >> >> _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ >> >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Sat May 25 21:40:20 2024 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Sat, 25 May 2024 18:40:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water system with Grundfos SQFlex Message-ID: I have a water system with a Grundfos SQFlex SQF3-2 pump. I'm getting water flow in reverse either through the pump or a leak up to the pump. My question is if the check valve on the top of the pump is not sealing, will the progressive cavity pump allow water to flow through the pump in reverse? I'd think that with a positive displacement pump it would not, except very slowly or if it turned the motor backwards which I think would be very unlikely. There is about 100 psi head on the pump. I think it's most likely I have a leak somewhere in the plumbing, and of course another failed check valve farther up in the plumbing. It's possible to get failures even with redundant protection if you have two concurrent failures, which I must have here. Brad Bassett Old time solar guy who used to do solar pumping back in the '80's and '90's. Mostly retired now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun May 26 07:26:50 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 05:26:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water system with Grundfos SQFlex In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Brad With 2 check valves leaking I’d look for a broken pipe or a corroded fitting. If there is anyway to isolate between the 2 check valves then you could measure the pressure drop on both sides which should point to the direction of the leak. Jay > On May 25, 2024, at 7:41 PM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > I have a water system with a Grundfos SQFlex SQF3-2 pump. I'm getting water flow in reverse either through the pump or a leak up to the pump. My question is if the check valve on the top of the pump is not sealing, will the progressive cavity pump allow water to flow through the pump in reverse? I'd think that with a positive displacement pump it would not, except very slowly or if it turned the motor backwards which I think would be very unlikely. There is about 100 psi head on the pump. > > I think it's most likely I have a leak somewhere in the plumbing, and of course another failed check valve farther up in the plumbing. It's possible to get failures even with redundant protection if you have two concurrent failures, which I must have here. > > Brad Bassett > Old time solar guy who used to do solar pumping back in the '80's and '90's. Mostly retired now. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun May 26 10:10:32 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 07:10:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water system with Grundfos SQFlex In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9d4ec5616ca4c9a037d42a367050f9e5@sti.net> Hey Brad, Sometimes shooting is best if you tell more on what you have done so far like using the SQF shooting guide, especially on a holiday weekend😉 Assume there is a CU200 controller and pump is in ground still, must be with 100ft head, sorry No high amps? It runs, How old? --Dave Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-05-26 4:26 am, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Brad > > With 2 check valves leaking I'd look for a broken pipe or a corroded > fitting. > > If there is anyway to isolate between the 2 check valves then you could > measure the pressure drop on both sides which should point to the > direction of the leak. > > Jay > >> On May 25, 2024, at 7:41 PM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> I have a water system with a Grundfos SQFlex SQF3-2 pump. I'm getting >> water flow in reverse either through the pump or a leak up to the >> pump. My question is if the check valve on the top of the pump is not >> sealing, will the progressive cavity pump allow water to flow through >> the pump in reverse? I'd think that with a positive displacement pump >> it would not, except very slowly or if it turned the motor backwards >> which I think would be very unlikely. There is about 100 psi head on >> the pump. >> >> I think it's most likely I have a leak somewhere in the plumbing, and >> of course another failed check valve farther up in the plumbing. It's >> possible to get failures even with redundant protection if you have >> two concurrent failures, which I must have here. >> >> Brad Bassett >> Old time solar guy who used to do solar pumping back in the '80's and >> '90's. Mostly retired now. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roy at four-winds-energy.com Sun May 26 11:01:04 2024 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler) Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 11:01:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water system with Grundfos SQFlex In-Reply-To: <9d4ec5616ca4c9a037d42a367050f9e5@sti.net> References: <9d4ec5616ca4c9a037d42a367050f9e5@sti.net> Message-ID: <8c139d79-79f2-4b3b-98d9-eefef5b9002f@four-winds-energy.com> Brad, Windy might chime in at some point to back me up on this but I see no way for that pump to turn backwards. Reverse flow is likely a leak at the pump, the down well piping or at the pitless adapter if there is one. Roy.... Another old time solar and wind guy, hoping to be retired someday :-). Roy Butler Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don’t. “The less people know, the more stubbornly they know it.” Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. On 5/26/2024 10:10 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hey Brad, > Sometimes shooting is best if you tell more on what you have done so > far like using the SQF shooting guide, especially on a holiday weekend😉 > Assume there is a CU200 controller and pump is in ground still, must > be with 100ft head, sorry > No high amps? It runs, How old? > --Dave > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2024-05-26 4:26 am, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> Hi Brad >> >> With 2 check valves leaking I’d look for a broken pipe or a corroded >> fitting. >> >> If there is anyway to isolate between the 2 check valves then you >> could measure the pressure drop on both sides which should point to >> the direction of the leak. >> >> Jay >> >>> On May 25, 2024, at 7:41 PM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> I have a water system with a Grundfos SQFlex SQF3-2 pump. I'm >>> getting water flow in reverse either through the pump or a leak up >>> to the pump. My question is if the check valve on the top of the >>> pump is not sealing, will the progressive cavity pump allow water to >>> flow through the pump in reverse? I'd think that with a positive >>> displacement pump it would not, except very slowly or if it turned >>> the motor backwards which I think would be very unlikely. There is >>> about 100 psi head on  the pump. >>> >>> I think it's most likely I have a leak somewhere in the plumbing, >>> and of course another failed check valve farther up in the plumbing. >>> It's possible to get failures even with redundant protection if you >>> have two concurrent failures, which I must have here. >>> >>> Brad Bassett >>> Old time solar guy who used to do solar pumping back in the '80's >>> and '90's. Mostly retired now. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>> try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun May 26 11:15:46 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 09:15:46 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water system with Grundfos SQFlex In-Reply-To: <8c139d79-79f2-4b3b-98d9-eefef5b9002f@four-winds-energy.com> References: <8c139d79-79f2-4b3b-98d9-eefef5b9002f@four-winds-energy.com> Message-ID: <88EE424A-B172-4A5B-9ABE-D65702FFE2B8@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Sun May 26 12:12:47 2024 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 09:12:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water system with Grundfos SQFlex In-Reply-To: <88EE424A-B172-4A5B-9ABE-D65702FFE2B8@gmail.com> References: <8c139d79-79f2-4b3b-98d9-eefef5b9002f@four-winds-energy.com> <88EE424A-B172-4A5B-9ABE-D65702FFE2B8@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, lots of possibilities for leaks. I will be exploring them today. Thanks for the tips for finding the location. This setup uses 300psi 1" black poly pipe on a 25 ft drop, and then about 1200 ft run of the same pipe up 220ft elevation to the tanks up the hill with the house about 36ft below the tanks with only gravity feed (16 psi). All connections on the poly pipe are made with long stainless barb fittings with T-bolt clamps, pretty bomb proof stuff. There is a pitless adapter into the well casing, I will check that for sure under pressure. I'll also fix the check valve in the pump house. I seem to have a lot of issues with check valves, do they really fail so often? We do* not* have high mineral water. I've especially had issues with spring check valves and no longer use them. The one in my pump house is a swing check valve which I thought was pretty reliable. If I remember correctly, the check valve in these pumps is not replaceable. Fortunately, we actually have two wells, each with a 3SQF-2 pump that we can alternate for supply. I'll let you know what I find. Way back in the '90's we had a customer with a solar pump that just would not perform. Even with a new pump, new control, check this and that, it just would not pump much water. It pumped fine when out of the well. The drop pipe did not have any obstruction. They finally ran the pump while it was out of the well with the drop pipe connected and under pressure, and discovered a crack in the PVC pipe that did not show up except under pressure. So leaks can indeed be hard to find. Brad On Sun, May 26, 2024 at 8:17 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi all > > Yes the pump won’t go backwards but it’s possible there could be some > leakage through the helical coil. > > But both check valves have to fail which is a low probability. > > I’ve seen pipe broken due to someone closing a valve and not having a > pressure relief valve. Not knowing what kind of pipe/fittings are being > used it could be corrosion has made a hole. > > Not knowing the layout it might be possible to split the plumbing and see > if the leakage is above or in the well. > > Lots of fun possibilities > > Jay > > > On May 26, 2024, at 9:03 AM, Roy Butler via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  Brad, > > Windy might chime in at some point to back me up on this but I see no way > for that pump to turn backwards. > Reverse flow is likely a leak at the pump, the down well piping or at the > pitless adapter if there is one. > > Roy.... > > Another old time solar and wind guy, hoping to be retired someday :-). > > Roy Butler > Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC > 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 > > > Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don’t. > > “The less people know, the more stubbornly they know it.” > > Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, > a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. > > > > On 5/26/2024 10:10 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hey Brad, > > Sometimes shooting is best if you tell more on what you have done so far > like using the SQF shooting guide, especially on a holiday weekend😉 > Assume there is a CU200 controller and pump is in ground still, must be > with 100ft head, sorry > No high amps? It runs, How old? > > --Dave > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2024-05-26 4:26 am, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi Brad > > With 2 check valves leaking I’d look for a broken pipe or a corroded > fitting. > > If there is anyway to isolate between the 2 check valves then you could > measure the pressure drop on both sides which should point to the direction > of the leak. > > Jay > > On May 25, 2024, at 7:41 PM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > I have a water system with a Grundfos SQFlex SQF3-2 pump. I'm getting > water flow in reverse either through the pump or a leak up to the pump. My > question is if the check valve on the top of the pump is not sealing, will > the progressive cavity pump allow water to flow through the pump in > reverse? I'd think that with a positive displacement pump it would not, > except very slowly or if it turned the motor backwards which I think would > be very unlikely. There is about 100 psi head on the pump. > > I think it's most likely I have a leak somewhere in the plumbing, and of > course another failed check valve farther up in the plumbing. It's possible > to get failures even with redundant protection if you have two concurrent > failures, which I must have here. > > Brad Bassett > Old time solar guy who used to do solar pumping back in the '80's and > '90's. Mostly retired now. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Sun May 26 12:35:11 2024 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 12:35:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] replacement needed for 12 vdc, 20w El-Sid circulator Message-ID: Hello, Any recommendations for replacement? A customer's El Sid on an old Sdhw system just failed after 20 years of service. It is powered directly from a PV module. Thanks in advance. -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sun May 26 13:05:31 2024 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 11:05:31 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] replacement needed for 12 vdc, 20w El-Sid circulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kirk; I found this place for a very remote client last year with an ancient, failed El-Sid on a solar thermal system. I didn't do the replacement as the site is too far away, but the client said it worked fine upon installation and I haven't heard a word since. https://www.ussolarpumps.com/el-sid/ Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Sun, May 26, 2024 at 10:38 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello, > > Any recommendations for replacement? A customer's El Sid on an old Sdhw > system just failed after 20 years of service. It is powered directly from a > PV module. Thanks in advance. > > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Sun May 26 13:18:44 2024 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 13:18:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] replacement needed for 12 vdc, 20w El-Sid circulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, I just found them online.Seems like the best alternative. On Sun, May 26, 2024 at 1:06 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Kirk; I found this place for a very remote client last year with an > ancient, failed El-Sid on a solar thermal system. I didn't do the > replacement as the site is too far away, but the client said it worked fine > upon installation and I haven't heard a word since. > https://www.ussolarpumps.com/el-sid/ > > Dan Fink > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > NABCEP PV Associate > d anbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > > > On Sun, May 26, 2024 at 10:38 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> Any recommendations for replacement? A customer's El Sid on an old Sdhw >> system just failed after 20 years of service. It is powered directly from a >> PV module. Thanks in advance. >> >> -- >> >> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >> >> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >> >> *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* >> >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> >> 802.559.1225 >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Sun May 26 13:41:07 2024 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 17:41:07 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] replacement needed for 12 vdc, 20w El-Sid circulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <477BDB7A-0DED-4581-8D0D-B8BBE5178425@solarwork.com> I have 19 Elvis pumps if you’re interested in one brand new in the box, but I have been replacing & not using them and using either GrundFoss or taco ECM which is the Alpha series I think in one of those brands but ECM is an electronically commutated motor takes AC turns to DC Super reliable adjustable speed much more reliable pumps in the Elcid but hey, I got 19 Elvis’s if you want some contact me off-line Dana Orzel C: 208.721.7003 E- dana at solarwork.com On May 26, 2024, at 11:21 AM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches wrote:  Thanks, I just found them online.Seems like the best alternative. On Sun, May 26, 2024 at 1:06 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches > wrote: Kirk; I found this place for a very remote client last year with an ancient, failed El-Sid on a solar thermal system. I didn't do the replacement as the site is too far away, but the client said it worked fine upon installation and I haven't heard a word since. https://www.ussolarpumps.com/el-sid/ Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate danbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Sun, May 26, 2024 at 10:38 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hello, Any recommendations for replacement? A customer's El Sid on an old Sdhw system just failed after 20 years of service. It is powered directly from a PV module. Thanks in advance. -- Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!! dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!! dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Sun May 26 14:13:06 2024 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 13:13:06 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water system with Grundfos SQFlex In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I had a similar pipe leak. I forgot how I located it, but I used a vaccumn gauge or pump and to determine how far down the well the the leak was and pulled the pump and pipe and found a crack. On Sat, May 25, 2024 at 8:41 PM Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I have a water system with a Grundfos SQFlex SQF3-2 pump. I'm getting > water flow in reverse either through the pump or a leak up to the pump. My > question is if the check valve on the top of the pump is not sealing, will > the progressive cavity pump allow water to flow through the pump in > reverse? I'd think that with a positive displacement pump it would not, > except very slowly or if it turned the motor backwards which I think would > be very unlikely. There is about 100 psi head on the pump. > > I think it's most likely I have a leak somewhere in the plumbing, and of > course another failed check valve farther up in the plumbing. It's possible > to get failures even with redundant protection if you have two concurrent > failures, which I must have here. > > Brad Bassett > Old time solar guy who used to do solar pumping back in the '80's and > '90's. Mostly retired now. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sun May 26 14:15:00 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 12:15:00 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water system with Grundfos SQFlex In-Reply-To: References: <8c139d79-79f2-4b3b-98d9-eefef5b9002f@four-winds-energy.com> <88EE424A-B172-4A5B-9ABE-D65702FFE2B8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6643f0ba-6c72-4434-8110-1949b65a025a@solarray.com> Hi Brad; I've seen a lot of leaks with barb fittings on poly pipe. I just replace most of the poly plumbing at my place, because I just couldn't get it to stop leaking. Black poly pipe is the lowest cost per foot, but not quite bomb proof.   Barb fittings are really more suited for irrigation under 40 psi, where leaks are just part of the irrigation system.  Also, if the pipe is exposed to sunlight, it can degrade and split open. Your described setup would have sections above 100 psi, and that will really drive leaks.  There are compression fittings for the poly pipe, which are better.  Here are some examples: PE pipe compression fitting for drinking water? Choose Blueseal16 - SAB spaJentro Fittings sdr11 klem draadstuk Barb fittings would probably be fine towards the top at the storage tanks, where the pressure is much lower, but at the pump, and top of the well, where the pressure is over 100 psi, I'd be using something better. Good Luck, Ray Walters Remote Solar On 5/26/2024 10:12 AM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches wrote: > Yes, lots of possibilities for leaks. I will be exploring them today. > Thanks for the tips for finding the location. This setup uses 300psi > 1" black poly pipe on a 25 ft drop, and then about 1200 ft run of the > same pipe up 220ft elevation to the tanks up the hill with the house > about 36ft below the tanks with only gravity feed (16 psi). All > connections on the poly pipe are made with long stainless barb > fittings with T-bolt clamps, pretty bomb proof stuff. There is a > pitless adapter into the well casing, I will check that for sure under > pressure. I'll also fix the check valve in the pump house. I seem to > have a lot of issues with check valves, do they really fail so often? > We do_not_ have high mineral water. I've especially had issues with > spring check valves and no longer use them. The one in my pump house > is a swing check valve which I thought was pretty reliable. If I > remember correctly, the check valve in these pumps is not replaceable. > Fortunately, we actually have two wells, each with a 3SQF-2 pump that > we can alternate for supply.  I'll let you know what I find. > > Way back in the '90's we had a customer with a solar pump that just > would not perform. Even with a new pump, new control, check this and > that, it just would not pump much water. It pumped fine when out of > the well. The drop pipe did not have any obstruction. They finally ran > the pump while it was out of the well with the drop pipe connected and > under pressure, and discovered a crack in the PVC pipe that did not > show up except under pressure. So leaks can indeed be hard to find. > > Brad > > > > On Sun, May 26, 2024 at 8:17 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi all > > Yes the pump won’t go backwards but it’s possible there could be > some leakage through the helical coil. > > But both check valves have to fail which is a low probability. > > I’ve seen pipe broken due to someone closing a valve and not > having a pressure relief valve. Not knowing what kind of > pipe/fittings  are being used it could be corrosion has made a hole. > > Not knowing the layout it might be possible to split the plumbing > and see if the leakage is above or in the well. > > Lots of fun possibilities > > Jay > > >> On May 26, 2024, at 9:03 AM, Roy Butler via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >>  Brad, >> >> Windy might chime in at some point to back me up on this but I >> see no way for that pump to turn backwards. >> Reverse flow is likely a leak at the pump, the down well piping >> or at the pitless adapter if there is one. >> >> Roy.... >> >> Another old time solar and wind guy, hoping to be retired someday >> :-). >> Roy Butler >> Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC >> 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 >> >> >> Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don’t. >> >> “The less people know, the more stubbornly they know it.” >> >> Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, >> a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. >> >> >> On 5/26/2024 10:10 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >> RE-wrenches wrote: >>> Hey Brad, >>> Sometimes shooting is best if you tell more on what you have >>> done so far like using the SQF shooting guide, especially on a >>> holiday weekend😉 >>> Assume there is a CU200 controller and pump is in ground still, >>> must be with 100ft head, sorry >>> No high amps? It runs, How old? >>> --Dave >>> >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" >>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>> >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060* >>> >>> >>> On 2024-05-26 4:26 am, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Brad >>>> >>>> With 2 check valves leaking I’d look for a broken pipe or a >>>> corroded fitting. >>>> >>>> If there is anyway to isolate between the 2 check valves then >>>> you could measure the pressure drop on both sides which should >>>> point to the direction of the leak. >>>> >>>> Jay >>>> >>>>> On May 25, 2024, at 7:41 PM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I have a water system with a Grundfos SQFlex SQF3-2 pump. I'm >>>>> getting water flow in reverse either through the pump or a >>>>> leak up to the pump. My question is if the check valve on the >>>>> top of the pump is not sealing, will the progressive cavity >>>>> pump allow water to flow through the pump in reverse? I'd >>>>> think that with a positive displacement pump it would not, >>>>> except very slowly or if it turned the motor backwards which I >>>>> think would be very unlikely. There is about 100 psi head on >>>>>  the pump. >>>>> >>>>> I think it's most likely I have a leak somewhere in the >>>>> plumbing, and of course another failed check valve farther up >>>>> in the plumbing. It's possible to get failures even with >>>>> redundant protection if you have two concurrent failures, >>>>> which I must have here. >>>>> >>>>> Brad Bassett >>>>> Old time solar guy who used to do solar pumping back in the >>>>> '80's and '90's. Mostly retired now. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>>>> work, try the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>>> work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >> try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Sun May 26 14:21:46 2024 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 11:21:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] replacement needed for 12 vdc, 20w El-Sid circulator In-Reply-To: <477BDB7A-0DED-4581-8D0D-B8BBE5178425@solarwork.com> References: <477BDB7A-0DED-4581-8D0D-B8BBE5178425@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Let us know what size solar panel works well with the US Pumps D5. I did not see where there was any data to indicate. It looks like you could just use the motor from the D5 and leave the old pump head in the water line? Brad On Sun, May 26, 2024 at 10:45 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I have 19 Elvis pumps if you’re interested in one brand new in the box, > but I have been replacing & not using them and using either GrundFoss or > taco ECM which is the Alpha series I think in one of those brands but ECM > is an electronically commutated motor takes AC turns to DC Super reliable > adjustable speed much more reliable pumps in the Elcid but hey, I got 19 > Elvis’s if you want some contact me off-line > Dana Orzel > C: 208.721.7003 > E- dana at solarwork.com > > On May 26, 2024, at 11:21 AM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Thanks, I just found them online.Seems like the best alternative. > > On Sun, May 26, 2024 at 1:06 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Kirk; I found this place for a very remote client last year with an >> ancient, failed El-Sid on a solar thermal system. I didn't do the >> replacement as the site is too far away, but the client said it worked fine >> upon installation and I haven't heard a word since. >> https://www.ussolarpumps.com/el-sid/ >> >> Dan Fink >> Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC >> IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation >> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector >> NABCEP PV Associate >> d anbob88 at gmail.com >> 970-672-4342 >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, May 26, 2024 at 10:38 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hello, >>> >>> Any recommendations for replacement? A customer's El Sid on an old Sdhw >>> system just failed after 20 years of service. It is powered directly from a >>> PV module. Thanks in advance. >>> >>> -- >>> >>> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >>> >>> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >>> >>> *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* >>> >>> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >>> >>> 802.559.1225 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Sun May 26 14:36:48 2024 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 11:36:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water system with Grundfos SQFlex In-Reply-To: <6643f0ba-6c72-4434-8110-1949b65a025a@solarray.com> References: <8c139d79-79f2-4b3b-98d9-eefef5b9002f@four-winds-energy.com> <88EE424A-B172-4A5B-9ABE-D65702FFE2B8@gmail.com> <6643f0ba-6c72-4434-8110-1949b65a025a@solarray.com> Message-ID: Ray, Do you have a US supplier for either of these fittings? The Jentro fitting looks great, the Blueseal16 does not look like it would have much of a pressure rating. I did not find a specification. What do you all use for drop pipes for well pumps? I have a 260ft deep well with galv, but the first batch corroded through, must have been a really bad batch. The second batch has been fine for many years. I can't bring myself to use PVC which is most common, I just have seen too many issues with it. Stainless is really expensive and hard to find threaded lengths, so I used very high pressure Poly. When it's rated for 300psi it has a very thick wall and is hard to get onto fittings, but is light weight and moderately flexible. Brad On Sun, May 26, 2024 at 11:17 AM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Brad; > > I've seen a lot of leaks with barb fittings on poly pipe. I just replace > most of the poly plumbing at my place, because I just couldn't get it to > stop leaking. Black poly pipe is the lowest cost per foot, but not quite > bomb proof. Barb fittings are really more suited for irrigation under 40 > psi, where leaks are just part of the irrigation system. Also, if the pipe > is exposed to sunlight, it can degrade and split open. Your described setup > would have sections above 100 psi, and that will really drive leaks. There > are compression fittings for the poly pipe, which are better. Here are > some examples: > > [image: PE pipe compression fitting for drinking water? Choose Blueseal16 > - SAB spa][image: Jentro Fittings sdr11 klem draadstuk] > > Barb fittings would probably be fine towards the top at the storage tanks, > where the pressure is much lower, but at the pump, and top of the well, > where the pressure is over 100 psi, I'd be using something better. > > Good Luck, > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > On 5/26/2024 10:12 AM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Yes, lots of possibilities for leaks. I will be exploring them today. > Thanks for the tips for finding the location. This setup uses 300psi 1" > black poly pipe on a 25 ft drop, and then about 1200 ft run of the same > pipe up 220ft elevation to the tanks up the hill with the house about 36ft > below the tanks with only gravity feed (16 psi). All connections on the > poly pipe are made with long stainless barb fittings with T-bolt clamps, > pretty bomb proof stuff. There is a pitless adapter into the well casing, I > will check that for sure under pressure. I'll also fix the check valve in > the pump house. I seem to have a lot of issues with check valves, do they > really fail so often? We do* not* have high mineral water. I've > especially had issues with spring check valves and no longer use them. The > one in my pump house is a swing check valve which I thought was pretty > reliable. If I remember correctly, the check valve in these pumps is not > replaceable. Fortunately, we actually have two wells, each with a > 3SQF-2 pump that we can alternate for supply. I'll let you know what I > find. > > Way back in the '90's we had a customer with a solar pump that just would > not perform. Even with a new pump, new control, check this and that, it > just would not pump much water. It pumped fine when out of the well. The > drop pipe did not have any obstruction. They finally ran the pump while it > was out of the well with the drop pipe connected and under pressure, and > discovered a crack in the PVC pipe that did not show up except under > pressure. So leaks can indeed be hard to find. > > Brad > > > > On Sun, May 26, 2024 at 8:17 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi all >> >> Yes the pump won’t go backwards but it’s possible there could be some >> leakage through the helical coil. >> >> But both check valves have to fail which is a low probability. >> >> I’ve seen pipe broken due to someone closing a valve and not having a >> pressure relief valve. Not knowing what kind of pipe/fittings are being >> used it could be corrosion has made a hole. >> >> Not knowing the layout it might be possible to split the plumbing and see >> if the leakage is above or in the well. >> >> Lots of fun possibilities >> >> Jay >> >> >> On May 26, 2024, at 9:03 AM, Roy Butler via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  Brad, >> >> Windy might chime in at some point to back me up on this but I see no way >> for that pump to turn backwards. >> Reverse flow is likely a leak at the pump, the down well piping or at the >> pitless adapter if there is one. >> >> Roy.... >> >> Another old time solar and wind guy, hoping to be retired someday :-). >> >> Roy Butler >> Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC >> 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 >> >> >> Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don’t. >> >> “The less people know, the more stubbornly they know it.” >> >> Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, >> a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. >> >> >> >> On 5/26/2024 10:10 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Hey Brad, >> >> Sometimes shooting is best if you tell more on what you have done so far >> like using the SQF shooting guide, especially on a holiday weekend😉 >> Assume there is a CU200 controller and pump is in ground still, must be >> with 100ft head, sorry >> No high amps? It runs, How old? >> >> --Dave >> >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> >> On 2024-05-26 4:26 am, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Hi Brad >> >> With 2 check valves leaking I’d look for a broken pipe or a corroded >> fitting. >> >> If there is anyway to isolate between the 2 check valves then you could >> measure the pressure drop on both sides which should point to the direction >> of the leak. >> >> Jay >> >> On May 25, 2024, at 7:41 PM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> >> I have a water system with a Grundfos SQFlex SQF3-2 pump. I'm getting >> water flow in reverse either through the pump or a leak up to the pump. My >> question is if the check valve on the top of the pump is not sealing, will >> the progressive cavity pump allow water to flow through the pump in >> reverse? I'd think that with a positive displacement pump it would not, >> except very slowly or if it turned the motor backwards which I think would >> be very unlikely. There is about 100 psi head on the pump. >> >> I think it's most likely I have a leak somewhere in the plumbing, and of >> course another failed check valve farther up in the plumbing. It's possible >> to get failures even with redundant protection if you have two concurrent >> failures, which I must have here. >> >> Brad Bassett >> Old time solar guy who used to do solar pumping back in the '80's and >> '90's. Mostly retired now. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Sun May 26 14:41:32 2024 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 18:41:32 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water system with Grundfos SQFlex In-Reply-To: References: <8c139d79-79f2-4b3b-98d9-eefef5b9002f@four-winds-energy.com> <88EE424A-B172-4A5B-9ABE-D65702FFE2B8@gmail.com> <6643f0ba-6c72-4434-8110-1949b65a025a@solarray.com> Message-ID: Brad - Try supplyhouse.com 888.757.4774 _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Water system with Grundfos SQFlex Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 18:36:48 +0000 Size: 53192 URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Sun May 26 14:54:00 2024 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 11:54:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water system with Grundfos SQFlex In-Reply-To: References: <8c139d79-79f2-4b3b-98d9-eefef5b9002f@four-winds-energy.com> <88EE424A-B172-4A5B-9ABE-D65702FFE2B8@gmail.com> <6643f0ba-6c72-4434-8110-1949b65a025a@solarray.com> Message-ID: Just went through all of Supplyhouse and did not find anything suitable. Off to do some looking down the well... On Sun, May 26, 2024 at 11:44 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Brad – Try supplyhouse.com > > 888.757.4774 > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! > > C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com > > W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com > > *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Sun May 26 15:08:27 2024 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 12:08:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water system with Grundfos SQFlex In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6F1A7B6C-9092-4950-B7E5-A8ACDE3A6420@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun May 26 17:15:33 2024 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 14:15:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water system with Grundfos SQFlex In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey wrenches Water leaks in wells, I just pulled my well pump out at a mere 390 feet, older galvanized 11/4 « steel, where the Water rose and dropped the pipe was is poor shape, not leaking yet but it will l suggest if the pump is pul l Ed then replace it with well pipe either sch 80 or 120 depending on the depth. Fun times On Sun, May 26, 2024, 11:14 AM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I had a similar pipe leak. I forgot how I located it, but I used a vaccumn > gauge or pump and to determine how far down the well the the leak was > and pulled the pump and pipe and found a crack. > > On Sat, May 25, 2024 at 8:41 PM Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I have a water system with a Grundfos SQFlex SQF3-2 pump. I'm getting >> water flow in reverse either through the pump or a leak up to the pump. My >> question is if the check valve on the top of the pump is not sealing, will >> the progressive cavity pump allow water to flow through the pump in >> reverse? I'd think that with a positive displacement pump it would not, >> except very slowly or if it turned the motor backwards which I think would >> be very unlikely. There is about 100 psi head on the pump. >> >> I think it's most likely I have a leak somewhere in the plumbing, and of >> course another failed check valve farther up in the plumbing. It's possible >> to get failures even with redundant protection if you have two concurrent >> failures, which I must have here. >> >> Brad Bassett >> Old time solar guy who used to do solar pumping back in the '80's and >> '90's. Mostly retired now. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun May 26 17:31:45 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 15:31:45 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water system with Grundfos SQFlex In-Reply-To: References: <8c139d79-79f2-4b3b-98d9-eefef5b9002f@four-winds-energy.com> <88EE424A-B172-4A5B-9ABE-D65702FFE2B8@gmail.com> <6643f0ba-6c72-4434-8110-1949b65a025a@solarray.com> Message-ID: Hi Brad, Here is the link. https://www.supplyhouse.com/Boshart-SSMAXL-100-1-Stainless-Steel-Male-Insert-Adapter-Extra-Long?utm_source=google_ad&utm_medium=shopping_neutral&utm_campaign=Shopping_Neutral_New_users&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwu8uyBhC6ARIsAKwBGpQPie_fqna9Gi5uV3xJmRp-HuZVqG0d3rDUmMZSAikrkFZIrHRnqCQaAuZyEALw_wcB I’ve installed dozens of wells and dozens of hydros at high pressure using these. Multiple clamps per connector and I’ve had no leaks. Also while it doesn’t seem right, using teflon tape on the barbs actually helps to reduce leaks. Install the clamps at 120 or 180 degrees from each other is important. If you want to do it correctly then use a HDPE butt welding machine. I just never could afford one. Jay > On May 26, 2024, at 12:54 PM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Just went through all of Supplyhouse and did not find anything suitable. Off to do some looking down the well... > > On Sun, May 26, 2024 at 11:44 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Brad – Try supplyhouse.com > 888.757.4774 > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! > > C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com > W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com > “Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!” > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun May 26 17:37:50 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 15:37:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water system with Grundfos SQFlex In-Reply-To: References: <8c139d79-79f2-4b3b-98d9-eefef5b9002f@four-winds-energy.com> <88EE424A-B172-4A5B-9ABE-D65702FFE2B8@gmail.com> <6643f0ba-6c72-4434-8110-1949b65a025a@solarray.com> Message-ID: And of course using a torch to soften the tubing just enough so that the barb fitting can insert and then grab into the plastic with the clamps. For 1” its not needed but helpful. For 1.25”- 2” its needed, or at least I’ve never been able to get a solid connection without heat. Jay > On May 26, 2024, at 3:31 PM, jay wrote: > > Hi Brad, > > Here is the link. > > https://www.supplyhouse.com/Boshart-SSMAXL-100-1-Stainless-Steel-Male-Insert-Adapter-Extra-Long?utm_source=google_ad&utm_medium=shopping_neutral&utm_campaign=Shopping_Neutral_New_users&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwu8uyBhC6ARIsAKwBGpQPie_fqna9Gi5uV3xJmRp-HuZVqG0d3rDUmMZSAikrkFZIrHRnqCQaAuZyEALw_wcB > > I’ve installed dozens of wells and dozens of hydros at high pressure using these. > Multiple clamps per connector and I’ve had no leaks. > Also while it doesn’t seem right, using teflon tape on the barbs actually helps to reduce leaks. > > Install the clamps at 120 or 180 degrees from each other is important. > > If you want to do it correctly then use a HDPE butt welding machine. I just never could afford one. > > Jay > > > > > >> On May 26, 2024, at 12:54 PM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> >> Just went through all of Supplyhouse and did not find anything suitable. Off to do some looking down the well... >> >> On Sun, May 26, 2024 at 11:44 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Brad – Try supplyhouse.com >> 888.757.4774 >> >> >> >> _________________________________________________________ >> >> Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! >> >> C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com >> W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com >> “Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!” >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun May 26 17:49:50 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 15:49:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water system with Grundfos SQFlex In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Sun May 26 18:35:32 2024 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 16:35:32 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water system with Grundfos SQFlex In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Sun May 26 19:46:52 2024 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 16:46:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water system with Grundfos SQFlex In-Reply-To: References: <8c139d79-79f2-4b3b-98d9-eefef5b9002f@four-winds-energy.com> <88EE424A-B172-4A5B-9ABE-D65702FFE2B8@gmail.com> <6643f0ba-6c72-4434-8110-1949b65a025a@solarray.com> Message-ID: Those are the exact inserts that I've used. Here's the clamps: clamps I'm not too keen on buying from Amaz... so if you know of any other source for these clamps let everyone know. I have installed two clamps per insert and did rotate them as indicated. That just seemed like good practice at the time. When installing the pipe onto these I used a camp stove and a pot of boiling water. Stick the end of the pipe in the boiling water for a little bit and they go on nicely. If it gets hard part way, I stick the pipe end and insert both into the boiling water to finish the job. I think I will not need any more inserts or clamps for this job, it looks like the pitless adapter is the problem. I'll pull the pump tomorrow and see if I can just replace the o-ring in it or if it needs something more. Thanks for all the suggestions. Brad On Sun, May 26, 2024 at 2:31 PM jay wrote: > Hi Brad, > > Here is the link. > > > https://www.supplyhouse.com/Boshart-SSMAXL-100-1-Stainless-Steel-Male-Insert-Adapter-Extra-Long?utm_source=google_ad&utm_medium=shopping_neutral&utm_campaign=Shopping_Neutral_New_users&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwu8uyBhC6ARIsAKwBGpQPie_fqna9Gi5uV3xJmRp-HuZVqG0d3rDUmMZSAikrkFZIrHRnqCQaAuZyEALw_wcB > > I’ve installed dozens of wells and dozens of hydros at high pressure using > these. > Multiple clamps per connector and I’ve had no leaks. > Also while it doesn’t seem right, using teflon tape on the barbs actually > helps to reduce leaks. > > Install the clamps at 120 or 180 degrees from each other is important. > > If you want to do it correctly then use a HDPE butt welding machine. I > just never could afford one. > > Jay > > > > > > On May 26, 2024, at 12:54 PM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Just went through all of Supplyhouse and did not find anything suitable. > Off to do some looking down the well... > > On Sun, May 26, 2024 at 11:44 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Brad – Try supplyhouse.com >> >> 888.757.4774 >> >> >> >> _________________________________________________________ >> >> Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! >> >> C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com >> >> W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com >> >> *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Mon May 27 10:16:39 2024 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Mon, 27 May 2024 10:16:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Tech Support In-Reply-To: References: <92986dffbb2670607937728b06bf9866@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <7fd6ea6977c850a961d5719995181ba4@redwoodalliance.org> Okay I did. Below is my posting. Is Outback tech support coming back under the new management? I would recommend reviving it and hiring back the people who really know the equipment, especially Lones Tuss. Will Outback honor the warranties of equipment now in the field? I recommend that it does, and improves the services rendered by the sellers. Since many people depend on their solar equipment for their electricity, it is crucial that replacements be delivered in a timely manner. Thank you, Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional --- On 2024-05-24 18:40, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Marshall Neipert [3]Forum MemberPosts: 11 [4]Joined: Mon May 20, 2024 > 10:07 amMy RE system: President of Outback Power > https://www.linkedin.com/in/neipertContact: > Contact Marshall Neipert [5] > > You should ask him Drake! He is on the forum and responding to some > emails. Here is in a link that he is taking suggestions on > https://forum.outbackpower.com/viewtopic.php?t=18726 > > Kind of weird that the president is using a linkedin address but it is > their company now. That is the main reason I responded on the Solar > edge stock. > You have to stay in business to be in business. With that price hit and > an address in Isreal right now, beware! > > I know very little about roof mounted electronics because I do not go > on roofs. I totally get it that most here do. I still have my rights I > think! > > FRIDAY ! Stay Safe ! > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On 2024-05-24 3:20 pm, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> Hello All, >> >> With the sale of Outback, their tech support seems to have >> disappeared. Around the time of the sale, tech support had agreed to >> send me a new control stack for a Radian. After a long delay, they did >> send it, but were quick to remind me to return the core. >> >> When the new control stack was installed, the inverter would not work. >> The error message was AC Out Voltage Low. I put the old one back in >> and returned the one they sent. There is no one to talk to, and no one >> answers email. >> >> Do you know if the new owners are planning to honor product warranty? >> Is tech support coming back? >> >> This is a pretty rough transition. It will likely leave a number of >> people in the dark. >> >> Fun Times Indeed! >> >> Drake >> >> _Drake Chamberlin_ >> >> _Athens Electric LLC_ >> >> _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ >> >> _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ >> >> -- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ [3] https://forum.outbackpower.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=20772 [4] https://forum.outbackpower.com/search.php?author_id=20772&sr=posts [5] https://forum.outbackpower.com/viewtopic.php?t=18726# -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Mon May 27 10:25:53 2024 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Mon, 27 May 2024 10:25:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] replacement needed for 12 vdc, 20w El-Sid circulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a box of new, 24VDC El Sid pumps that I decided not to use. I would be willing to sell the lot for what i have in it. Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional --- On 2024-05-26 12:35, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hello, > > Any recommendations for replacement? A customer's El Sid on an old Sdhw > system just failed after 20 years of service. It is powered directly > from a PV module. Thanks in advance. > -- > > Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar > > Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC > > _Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!_ > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon May 27 13:08:34 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 27 May 2024 11:08:34 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] offgrid solar installer in anchorage/SE alaska Message-ID: HI All Any recommendations for a off grid installer in Anchorage or SE alaska? Pls contact me off list thanks jay From ray at solarray.com Mon May 27 13:09:23 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Mon, 27 May 2024 11:09:23 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water system with Grundfos SQFlex In-Reply-To: References: <8c139d79-79f2-4b3b-98d9-eefef5b9002f@four-winds-energy.com> <88EE424A-B172-4A5B-9ABE-D65702FFE2B8@gmail.com> <6643f0ba-6c72-4434-8110-1949b65a025a@solarray.com> Message-ID: <4bdec67c-e301-4fa7-8191-a08d3121f1f2@solarray.com> Sorry Brad, It's been a long time since I did well work, and now, I can't find a supplier of the fittings.  The pics I sent earlier were just representative, but not exactly what I used in the past. What I had used were bronze compression fittings similar to liquid tite conduit male adapters.  I have no idea who made them, or where I got them from. The closest I can find now are for poly gas line, and they're over $100/ fitting at Grainger. Main product photo I use PEX and Shark bite fittings for any plumbing I'm doing now.  Never had a leak, super fast, and reversible. Ray On 5/26/2024 12:36 PM, Bradley Bassett wrote: > Ray, > > Do you have a US supplier for either of these fittings? The Jentro > fitting looks great, the Blueseal16 does not look like it would have > much of a pressure rating. I did not find a specification. > > What do you all use for drop pipes for well pumps?  I have a 260ft > deep well with galv, but the first batch corroded through, must have > been a really bad batch. The second batch has been fine for many > years. I can't bring myself to use PVC which is most common, I just > have seen too many issues with it. Stainless is really expensive and > hard to find threaded lengths, so I used very high pressure Poly. When > it's rated for 300psi it has a very thick wall and is hard to get onto > fittings, but is light weight and moderately flexible. > > Brad > > On Sun, May 26, 2024 at 11:17 AM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi Brad; > > I've seen a lot of leaks with barb fittings on poly pipe. I just > replace most of the poly plumbing at my place, because I just > couldn't get it to stop leaking. Black poly pipe is the lowest > cost per foot, but not quite bomb proof.   Barb fittings are > really more suited for irrigation under 40 psi, where leaks are > just part of the irrigation system.  Also, if the pipe is exposed > to sunlight, it can degrade and split open. Your described setup > would have sections above 100 psi, and that will really drive > leaks.  There are compression fittings for the poly pipe, which > are better.  Here are some examples: > > > Barb fittings would probably be fine towards the top at the > storage tanks, where the pressure is much lower, but at the pump, > and top of the well, where the pressure is over 100 psi, I'd be > using something better. > > Good Luck, > > Ray Walters > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Mon May 27 14:23:40 2024 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Mon, 27 May 2024 11:23:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water system with Grundfos SQFlex In-Reply-To: <4bdec67c-e301-4fa7-8191-a08d3121f1f2@solarray.com> References: <8c139d79-79f2-4b3b-98d9-eefef5b9002f@four-winds-energy.com> <88EE424A-B172-4A5B-9ABE-D65702FFE2B8@gmail.com> <6643f0ba-6c72-4434-8110-1949b65a025a@solarray.com> <4bdec67c-e301-4fa7-8191-a08d3121f1f2@solarray.com> Message-ID: OK, all of the fittings were just fine. After pulling the pump it was obvious that there was a total failure of the Grundfos SQFlex 3SQF-2 pump head, both the rotor and the check valve. Water just pours through it in reverse with no pressure. On the last test in place it would not produce more than 75psi running on 240VAC deadheaded. This pump is only 10 years old and only served a two person household with minimal water use on AC power, so it did not run anywhere near as many hours as a solar pump. 100psi head. I'd buy a different pump if I could come up with a method of control. Float switch is 1200 ft away (half AWG#16 and half AWG#14) and a second SQFlex pump in the other well so I'd have to figure out how to control both pumps. I do switch from one to the other; they do not run at the same time. Remember that these float switches are reverse, close on high water. Back when I sold these, the pump head was not available separate from the motor, anyone know if that is still true? Anyone have a good source for these? I'll look of course, but first hand knowledge from anyone here is good. I do also have a backward leaky check valve in the pump house which will be a lot of work to replace. I have a problem with cheap unions leaking also, but they do come in handy in cases like this. I might just cut through one of the pipes and put in a union. Otherwise I have to disassemble a lot of plumbing. Living in the country... Thanks, Brad Bassett On Mon, May 27, 2024 at 10:09 AM Ray Walters wrote: > Sorry Brad, > > It's been a long time since I did well work, and now, I can't find a > supplier of the fittings. The pics I sent earlier were just > representative, but not exactly what I used in the past. What I had used > were bronze compression fittings similar to liquid tite conduit male > adapters. I have no idea who made them, or where I got them from. The > closest I can find now are for poly gas line, and they're over $100/ > fitting at Grainger. > > [image: Main product photo] I use PEX and Shark bite fittings for any > plumbing I'm doing now. Never had a leak, super fast, and reversible. > > Ray > On 5/26/2024 12:36 PM, Bradley Bassett wrote: > > Ray, > > Do you have a US supplier for either of these fittings? The Jentro fitting > looks great, the Blueseal16 does not look like it would have much of a > pressure rating. I did not find a specification. > > What do you all use for drop pipes for well pumps? I have a 260ft deep > well with galv, but the first batch corroded through, must have been a > really bad batch. The second batch has been fine for many years. I can't > bring myself to use PVC which is most common, I just have seen too many > issues with it. Stainless is really expensive and hard to find threaded > lengths, so I used very high pressure Poly. When it's rated for 300psi it > has a very thick wall and is hard to get onto fittings, but is light weight > and moderately flexible. > > Brad > > On Sun, May 26, 2024 at 11:17 AM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi Brad; >> >> I've seen a lot of leaks with barb fittings on poly pipe. I just replace >> most of the poly plumbing at my place, because I just couldn't get it to >> stop leaking. Black poly pipe is the lowest cost per foot, but not quite >> bomb proof. Barb fittings are really more suited for irrigation under 40 >> psi, where leaks are just part of the irrigation system. Also, if the pipe >> is exposed to sunlight, it can degrade and split open. Your described setup >> would have sections above 100 psi, and that will really drive leaks. There >> are compression fittings for the poly pipe, which are better. Here are >> some examples: >> >> >> Barb fittings would probably be fine towards the top at the storage >> tanks, where the pressure is much lower, but at the pump, and top of the >> well, where the pressure is over 100 psi, I'd be using something better. >> >> Good Luck, >> >> Ray Walters >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon May 27 14:39:28 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 27 May 2024 12:39:28 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water system with Grundfos SQFlex In-Reply-To: References: <8c139d79-79f2-4b3b-98d9-eefef5b9002f@four-winds-energy.com> <88EE424A-B172-4A5B-9ABE-D65702FFE2B8@gmail.com> <6643f0ba-6c72-4434-8110-1949b65a025a@solarray.com> <4bdec67c-e301-4fa7-8191-a08d3121f1f2@solarray.com> Message-ID: <5AB65310-777E-4AA2-B47F-28CEA207FD5B@gmail.com> HI Brad, Is this off/on grid? And are the two wells near each other or they just join up at the tank and float switch? If you’ve got the power then I’d install just a standard AC centrifugal pump. Sure uses more power but lasts forever. And is maybe $500 vs $2500 And you’ve said minimal water use. since you switch back and forth you could use a DPDT relay to use the reverse logic float which the CU200 requires. > On May 27, 2024, at 12:23 PM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches wrote: > > OK, all of the fittings were just fine. After pulling the pump it was obvious that there was a total failure of the Grundfos SQFlex 3SQF-2 pump head, both the rotor and the check valve. Water just pours through it in reverse with no pressure. On the last test in place it would not produce more than 75psi running on 240VAC deadheaded. This pump is only 10 years old and only served a two person household with minimal water use on AC power, so it did not run anywhere near as many hours as a solar pump. 100psi head. I'd buy a different pump if I could come up with a method of control. Float switch is 1200 ft away (half AWG#16 and half AWG#14) and a second SQFlex pump in the other well so I'd have to figure out how to control both pumps. I do switch from one to the other; they do not run at the same time. Remember that these float switches are reverse, close on high water. > > Back when I sold these, the pump head was not available separate from the motor, anyone know if that is still true? > Anyone have a good source for these? I'll look of course, but first hand knowledge from anyone here is good. > > I do also have a backward leaky check valve in the pump house which will be a lot of work to replace. I have a problem with cheap unions leaking also, but they do come in handy in cases like this. I might just cut through one of the pipes and put in a union. Otherwise I have to disassemble a lot of plumbing. > > Living in the country... > > Thanks, > Brad Bassett > From allan at sindelarsolar.com Mon May 27 16:44:01 2024 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Mon, 27 May 2024 14:44:01 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water system with Grundfos SQFlex In-Reply-To: <5AB65310-777E-4AA2-B47F-28CEA207FD5B@gmail.com> References: <5AB65310-777E-4AA2-B47F-28CEA207FD5B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <22D73E7B-5E71-451A-B0EC-4B48F7D11461@sindelarsolar.com> The Ford Meter Box company in Wabash, Indiana made these in the photo. This photo has my leftover stock - 6 couplers, 1 connector to mate to 3/4” fpt and 2 connectors (1 new, 1 apparently installed but never used) to fit 1” fpt. All of these fit 3/4” SDR9 poly pipe. Contact me off list for a good deal on this lot of fittings. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 1425396 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- Allan Sindelar Allan at sindelarsolar.com > On May 27, 2024, at 12:40 PM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > HI Brad, > > Is this off/on grid? > And are the two wells near each other or they just join up at the tank and float switch? > > If you’ve got the power then I’d install just a standard AC centrifugal pump. Sure uses more power but lasts forever. And is maybe $500 vs $2500 > And you’ve said minimal water use. > > since you switch back and forth you could use a DPDT relay to use the reverse logic float which the CU200 requires. > > > >> On May 27, 2024, at 12:23 PM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> OK, all of the fittings were just fine. After pulling the pump it was obvious that there was a total failure of the Grundfos SQFlex 3SQF-2 pump head, both the rotor and the check valve. Water just pours through it in reverse with no pressure. On the last test in place it would not produce more than 75psi running on 240VAC deadheaded. This pump is only 10 years old and only served a two person household with minimal water use on AC power, so it did not run anywhere near as many hours as a solar pump. 100psi head. I'd buy a different pump if I could come up with a method of control. Float switch is 1200 ft away (half AWG#16 and half AWG#14) and a second SQFlex pump in the other well so I'd have to figure out how to control both pumps. I do switch from one to the other; they do not run at the same time. Remember that these float switches are reverse, close on high water. >> >> Back when I sold these, the pump head was not available separate from the motor, anyone know if that is still true? >> Anyone have a good source for these? I'll look of course, but first hand knowledge from anyone here is good. >> >> I do also have a backward leaky check valve in the pump house which will be a lot of work to replace. I have a problem with cheap unions leaking also, but they do come in handy in cases like this. I might just cut through one of the pipes and put in a union. Otherwise I have to disassemble a lot of plumbing. >> >> Living in the country... >> >> Thanks, >> Brad Bassett >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From bbassett2 at gmail.com Mon May 27 17:38:19 2024 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Mon, 27 May 2024 14:38:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water system with Grundfos SQFlex In-Reply-To: <5AB65310-777E-4AA2-B47F-28CEA207FD5B@gmail.com> References: <8c139d79-79f2-4b3b-98d9-eefef5b9002f@four-winds-energy.com> <88EE424A-B172-4A5B-9ABE-D65702FFE2B8@gmail.com> <6643f0ba-6c72-4434-8110-1949b65a025a@solarray.com> <4bdec67c-e301-4fa7-8191-a08d3121f1f2@solarray.com> <5AB65310-777E-4AA2-B47F-28CEA207FD5B@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, Grid tie 240VAC Tanks > 100ft to house with some switches on the float switch wiring > 500ft to pump house with control switches and one CU200 and AC power supply > 20ft to one well with pump that is 260ft down > 300ft from pump house to the other CU200 > 300ft to the second pump that is 25ft down. This is the pump we prefer to use and that failed. I'll have to think about control methods. I could conceivably use a relay in the pump house and simply turn an AC pump on and off. The control wirings for the two pumps would have to be completely isolated from each other. Any recommendations for an AC pump? 250ft head, 600ft of #12 wire at 240VAC, minimal flow needed. The SQF has ~2 gpm, which is plenty. 500gal storage tank with gravity feed to the house. Thanks, Brad On Mon, May 27, 2024 at 11:39 AM jay wrote: > HI Brad, > > Is this off/on grid? > And are the two wells near each other or they just join up at the tank and > float switch? > > If you’ve got the power then I’d install just a standard AC centrifugal > pump. Sure uses more power but lasts forever. And is maybe $500 vs $2500 > And you’ve said minimal water use. > > since you switch back and forth you could use a DPDT relay to use the > reverse logic float which the CU200 requires. > > > > > On May 27, 2024, at 12:23 PM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > > OK, all of the fittings were just fine. After pulling the pump it was > obvious that there was a total failure of the Grundfos SQFlex 3SQF-2 pump > head, both the rotor and the check valve. Water just pours through it in > reverse with no pressure. On the last test in place it would not produce > more than 75psi running on 240VAC deadheaded. This pump is only 10 years > old and only served a two person household with minimal water use on AC > power, so it did not run anywhere near as many hours as a solar pump. > 100psi head. I'd buy a different pump if I could come up with a method of > control. Float switch is 1200 ft away (half AWG#16 and half AWG#14) and a > second SQFlex pump in the other well so I'd have to figure out how to > control both pumps. I do switch from one to the other; they do not run at > the same time. Remember that these float switches are reverse, close on > high water. > > > > Back when I sold these, the pump head was not available separate from > the motor, anyone know if that is still true? > > Anyone have a good source for these? I'll look of course, but first hand > knowledge from anyone here is good. > > > > I do also have a backward leaky check valve in the pump house which will > be a lot of work to replace. I have a problem with cheap unions leaking > also, but they do come in handy in cases like this. I might just cut > through one of the pipes and put in a union. Otherwise I have to > disassemble a lot of plumbing. > > > > Living in the country... > > > > Thanks, > > Brad Bassett > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Mon May 27 23:40:00 2024 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Mon, 27 May 2024 20:40:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discover AES exposion Message-ID: Hey Everybody, I wanted to circle back on the Discover AES explosion that I reported a few weeks ago. As far as we know, there was a thermal runaway situation. Gas from the battery filled the power room and then ignited causing an explosion. It was hot enough that anything plastic melted. The steel man door blew off its hinges. Beyond that, we are still trying to figure out why it happened. For now, what I want to say is that Discover has been awesome. The VP, CEO and crew responded immediately. They are paying for the cleanup of the building by a specialized remediation company, offered to pay to have the building rebuilt, 2nd day shipped new rack mount batteries and a pre-built Schneider system to the site. Are paying a plumbing contractor to replace all of the plumbing (booster pump, pressure tank and significant treatment equipment. Flying Mike Wight (ace off-grid installer and applications engineer for Discover) to the site for the rebuild. And reimbursing me for my involvement. This with no coercion or dawdling about. As soon as they found out, they were on it. I spoke with the VP and CEO and they genuinely care about my clients and want to do right for the sake of doing right, not to avoid litigation. Tell me of another RE company, or any company for that matter that would respond this way. -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Tue May 28 07:51:41 2024 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 11:51:41 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NOS SMA-41 Message-ID: Looking for an SB3.8-1SP-US-41 if anyone has one please contact me off list Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue May 28 08:06:31 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 06:06:31 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discover AES exposion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <64CDF314-DBB8-4D9F-B07A-389B7876FD39@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue May 28 10:00:16 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 07:00:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discover AES exposion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Michael, I heard that it was a pretty small shed, can you comment on that please. Good luck on the trouble shooting. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-05-27 8:40 pm, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hey Everybody, > > I wanted to circle back on the Discover AES explosion that I reported a > few weeks ago. As far as we know, there was a thermal runaway > situation. Gas from the battery filled the power room and then ignited > causing an explosion. It was hot enough that anything plastic melted. > The steel man door blew off its hinges. Beyond that, we are still > trying to figure out why it happened. > > For now, what I want to say is that Discover has been awesome. The VP, > CEO and crew responded immediately. They are paying for the cleanup of > the building by a specialized remediation company, offered to pay to > have the building rebuilt, 2nd day shipped new rack mount batteries and > a pre-built Schneider system to the site. Are paying a plumbing > contractor to replace all of the plumbing (booster pump, pressure tank > and significant treatment equipment. Flying Mike Wight (ace off-grid > installer and applications engineer for Discover) to the site for the > rebuild. And reimbursing me for my involvement. This with no coercion > or dawdling about. As soon as they found out, they were on it. I spoke > with the VP and CEO and they genuinely care about my clients and want > to do right for the sake of doing right, not to avoid litigation. Tell > me of another RE company, or any company for that matter that would > respond this way. > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > Morningstar Electric Inc > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > CSLB 1116835 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Tue May 28 10:46:00 2024 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 07:46:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discover AES exposion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, it's interior dimensions are 10 x12. On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 7:01 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hey Michael, > > I heard that it was a pretty small shed, can you comment on that please. > Good luck on the trouble shooting. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2024-05-27 8:40 pm, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hey Everybody, > > I wanted to circle back on the Discover AES explosion that I reported a > few weeks ago. As far as we know, there was a thermal runaway situation. > Gas from the battery filled the power room and then ignited causing an > explosion. It was hot enough that anything plastic melted. The steel man > door blew off its hinges. Beyond that, we are still trying to figure out > why it happened. > > For now, what I want to say is that Discover has been awesome. The VP, CEO > and crew responded immediately. They are paying for the cleanup of the > building by a specialized remediation company, offered to pay to have the > building rebuilt, 2nd day shipped new rack mount batteries and a pre-built > Schneider system to the site. Are paying a plumbing contractor to replace > all of the plumbing (booster pump, pressure tank and significant treatment > equipment. Flying Mike Wight (ace off-grid installer and > applications engineer for Discover) to the site for the rebuild. And > reimbursing me for my involvement. This with no coercion or dawdling about. > As soon as they found out, they were on it. I spoke with the VP and CEO and > they genuinely care about my clients and want to do right for the sake of > doing right, not to avoid litigation. Tell me of another RE company, or any > company for that matter that would respond this way. > > -- > > > > Michael Morningstar > > > > Morningstar Electric Inc > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > CSLB 1116835 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Tue May 28 13:49:36 2024 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 13:49:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NOS SMA-41 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jeremy, I’m looking for the same inverter as well. I was just going to post info on a PV upgrade for one of my oldest customers currently running a grid tie with backup installed in 2002. It is a Trace SW4024 with 3 MX60's and 3 TOP racks of 12 Sunwize 110's. I am going to repanel with 24 365 watt panels or higher with some continuing to feed into 2 FM80’s and the rest of the PV direct grid tied. I was looking at the Secure Power supply as a source when grid was out to feed the additional power to the batteries through 2 iota DLS 24v 40 amps chargers in a longer outage. It looks like the new SMA 3.8 hybrid inverter would also work but may not yet be available. John. On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 7:Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Looking for an SB3.8-1SP-US-41 if anyone has one please contact me off > list > > > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > > > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Tue May 28 16:02:22 2024 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 16:02:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NOS SMA-41 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: John, Just an FYI, the new SBSE inverters are available in the up to 7.7kw models. I believe the SPS is possible with them right now, but the more involved backup options are not yet available. Cheers, Dave On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 1:50 PM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jeremy, > I’m looking for the same inverter as well. I was just going to post info > on a PV upgrade for one of my oldest customers currently running a grid tie > with backup installed in 2002. It is a Trace SW4024 with 3 MX60's and 3 > TOP racks of 12 Sunwize 110's. I am going to repanel with 24 365 watt > panels or higher with some continuing to feed into 2 FM80’s and the rest of > the PV direct grid tied. I was looking at the Secure Power supply as a > source when grid was out to feed the additional power to the batteries > through 2 iota DLS 24v 40 amps chargers in a longer outage. It looks like > the new SMA 3.8 hybrid inverter would also work but may not yet be > available. > > John. > > On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 7:Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Looking for an SB3.8-1SP-US-41 if anyone has one please contact me off >> list >> >> >> >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> Solar Installation / Design >> All Solar, Inc. >> 1453 M St. >> >> >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vincentj at cobaltpower.com Tue May 28 17:15:32 2024 From: vincentj at cobaltpower.com (Vincent Jolissaint) Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 14:15:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discover AES explosion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Michael, it is super scary to hear these stories and they are a good reminder that Li-ion technology still has risks. I am glad the manufacturer is taking care of you, but it is concerning to see that the battery safety systems allowed the thermal runaway event. Hopefully, the fire department coded the incident response correctly, so the powers that be can understand this was a li-ion thermal event from a home energy storage system. As more and more ESS systems enter the market, getting a recent UL 9540 listing is important. The earlier versions of the standard were less robust, but the current edition of 9540 requires UL 9540A testing to be performed for indoor installations to establish minimum room size based on 25% LFL. It looks like there will soon be a UL 9540B requirement, and the outline of investigation is just circulating. I see one Discover datasheet shows UL 9540 listing, but I didn't do research into what edition they tested to, or if this was the same unit that exploded. The issue with the 9540A thermal runaway testing is it might not have tested for this failure mode, but the conditions you describe are very similar to what 9540B intends to test. I know many feel LFP is a safer battery than NMC or other li-ion chemistries, but these events show that the LFP batteries do fail, and when they do, they can cause large sudden deflagration events without other warning. An NMC battery pack buy contrast will usually fail by burning until it is consumed, which might at least set off a smoke or heat detector. Were there any fire detection measures in the shed such as a heat or smoke detector? *Vince Jolissaint |* *Director of CAD Services* 2557 Wyandotte Street | Mountain View, CA 94043 Office: 650.938.9574 | Email: vincentj at cobaltpower.com > > Date: Mon, 27 May 2024 20:40:00 -0700 > From: Michael Morningstar > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discover AES exposion > Message-ID: > < > CAPWhfaegnz5vjMkFLffeA6my+cDJQde-UuaBg1_mDyUiLobeUg at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hey Everybody, > > I wanted to circle back on the Discover AES explosion that I reported a few > weeks ago. As far as we know, there was a thermal runaway situation. Gas > from the battery filled the power room and then ignited causing an > explosion. It was hot enough that anything plastic melted. The steel man > door blew off its hinges. Beyond that, we are still trying to figure out > why it happened. > > For now, what I want to say is that Discover has been awesome. The VP, CEO > and crew responded immediately. They are paying for the cleanup of the > building by a specialized remediation company, offered to pay to have the > building rebuilt, 2nd day shipped new rack mount batteries and a pre-built > Schneider system to the site. Are paying a plumbing contractor to replace > all of the plumbing (booster pump, pressure tank and significant treatment > equipment. Flying Mike Wight (ace off-grid installer and > applications engineer for Discover) to the site for the rebuild. And > reimbursing me for my involvement. This with no coercion or dawdling about. > As soon as they found out, they were on it. I spoke with the VP and CEO and > they genuinely care about my clients and want to do right for the sake of > doing right, not to avoid litigation. Tell me of another RE company, or any > company for that matter that would respond this way. > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric Inc > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > CSLB 1116835 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com Tue May 28 17:53:39 2024 From: solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com (Solar Energy Solutions) Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 21:53:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] replacement needed for 12 vdc, 20w El-Sid circulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1222787011.2880806.1716933219185@mail.yahoo.com> Dear Kirk and All, We use the Laing Pump D5 solar/720B  Part # LMB15107992 Smiles,  Andrew KoyaanisqatsiPresidentSolar Energy Solutions, Inc. The BRIGHT CHOICE Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally sustainable future.503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com On Monday, May 27, 2024 at 07:26:47 AM PDT, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: I have a box of new, 24VDC El Sid pumps that I decided not to use. I would be willing to sell the lot for what i have in it. Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ---   On 2024-05-26 12:35, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches wrote: Hello, Any recommendations for replacement? A customer's El Sid on an old Sdhw system just failed after 20 years of service. It is powered directly from a PV module. Thanks in advance.  -- Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!! dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue May 28 18:12:12 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 15:12:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discover AES explosion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199c8f39017ff1eab1cd58b7dd4660f3@sti.net> Might want to wait until the FA is done. A failed BMS possible, remember we are talking about adding electronics into batteries that never had them offgrid. I was talking with the Engineer (different issue) at AES on the rack system and he said one battery is still good and they can get the data that might help here. The rack uses a different LFP cell type BTW Many of my offgrid clients are so remote it is a blessing the the fire guys even showed up. _ I am concerned as over 50 clients use the 6650. Discover has been a leader in spelling out the dangers. Some info below._ The 7.4KWH model 6650 had these CERTIFICATION STANDARDS IEC 62133 UL 1973 UL 9540 UL 2271 SGIP CEC CE UN 38.3 Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-05-28 2:15 pm, Vincent Jolissaint via RE-wrenches wrote: > Michael, it is super scary to hear these stories and they are a good > reminder that Li-ion technology still has risks. I am glad the > manufacturer is taking care of you, but it is concerning to see that > the battery safety systems allowed the thermal runaway event. > > Hopefully, the fire department coded the incident response correctly, > so the powers that be can understand this was a li-ion thermal event > from a home energy storage system. > > As more and more ESS systems enter the market, getting a recent UL 9540 > listing is important. The earlier versions of the standard were less > robust, but the current edition of 9540 requires UL 9540A testing to be > performed for indoor installations to establish minimum room size based > on 25% LFL. > > It looks like there will soon be a UL 9540B requirement, and the > outline of investigation is just circulating. I see one Discover > datasheet shows UL 9540 listing, but I didn't do research into what > edition they tested to, or if this was the same unit that exploded. > > The issue with the 9540A thermal runaway testing is it might not have > tested for this failure mode, but the conditions you describe are very > similar to what 9540B intends to test. > > I know many feel LFP is a safer battery than NMC or other li-ion > chemistries, but these events show that the LFP batteries do fail, and > when they do, they can cause large sudden deflagration events without > other warning. An NMC battery pack buy contrast will usually fail by > burning until it is consumed, which might at least set off a smoke or > heat detector. > > Were there any fire detection measures in the shed such as a heat or > smoke detector? > > Vince Jolissaint | Director of CAD Services > > 2557 Wyandotte Street | Mountain View, CA 94043 > Office: 650.938.9574 | Email: vincentj at cobaltpower.com > >> Date: Mon, 27 May 2024 20:40:00 -0700 >> From: Michael Morningstar >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discover AES exposion >> Message-ID: >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Hey Everybody, >> >> I wanted to circle back on the Discover AES explosion that I reported >> a few >> weeks ago. As far as we know, there was a thermal runaway situation. >> Gas >> from the battery filled the power room and then ignited causing an >> explosion. It was hot enough that anything plastic melted. The steel >> man >> door blew off its hinges. Beyond that, we are still trying to figure >> out >> why it happened. >> >> For now, what I want to say is that Discover has been awesome. The VP, >> CEO >> and crew responded immediately. They are paying for the cleanup of the >> building by a specialized remediation company, offered to pay to have >> the >> building rebuilt, 2nd day shipped new rack mount batteries and a >> pre-built >> Schneider system to the site. Are paying a plumbing contractor to >> replace >> all of the plumbing (booster pump, pressure tank and significant >> treatment >> equipment. Flying Mike Wight (ace off-grid installer and >> applications engineer for Discover) to the site for the rebuild. And >> reimbursing me for my involvement. This with no coercion or dawdling >> about. >> As soon as they found out, they were on it. I spoke with the VP and >> CEO and >> they genuinely care about my clients and want to do right for the sake >> of >> doing right, not to avoid litigation. Tell me of another RE company, >> or any >> company for that matter that would respond this way. >> >> -- >> >> Michael Morningstar >> >> Morningstar Electric Inc >> >> PO Box 1494 >> >> Mount Shasta, CA 96067 >> >> 530-921-0560 >> >> CSLB 1116835 >> >> mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 7e612556.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 111189 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue May 28 20:35:07 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 18:35:07 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discover rack mount battery connectors Message-ID: <2A847FD8-3327-401D-A8EF-6BD17935D0AF@gmail.com> Hi all I’ve noticed that many batteries are now using a different type of battery connector. Almost like a kind of MC4. It has a positive locking mechanism. Discover, EG4, and others. I’m wondering if anyone knows if they are universal or specific to each brand? And is there a name for this type of connector. Thanks Jay From maverick at mavericksolar.com Tue May 28 21:41:51 2024 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Tue, 28 May 2024 20:41:51 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discover rack mount battery connectors In-Reply-To: <2A847FD8-3327-401D-A8EF-6BD17935D0AF@gmail.com> References: <2A847FD8-3327-401D-A8EF-6BD17935D0AF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0F53506B-6AD0-40A2-85F4-B1C834B3EA5D@mavericksolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Facebook.jpg Type: image/png Size: 121176 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed May 29 07:14:06 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 29 May 2024 07:14:06 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Simpliphi Phi 3.8 48V Case Color Message-ID: Is there a difference in the batteries in a white case vs. black case? Are they compatible in terms of paralleling them? Secondary question - I can't find the maximum number of these batteries in parallel. Is anyone aware of the capacity limit? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Wed May 29 10:08:35 2024 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Wed, 29 May 2024 14:08:35 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Simpliphi Phi 3.8 48V Case Color In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jason, It looks like all the black casings are 12 or 24 Volt. White 3.8kW @ 48V nom. are either AmpliPhi (with comms.) or SimpliPhi without. They can't be mixed. Not sure of the maximum number, but UL 9540 listing up to 3 x BOSS.12 with 12 batteries each. Best regards, Lloyd Lloyd Hoffstatter, M.S. Applied Solar Energy Director, Sunstruck Consulting lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com 845-657-8132 (office) 914-844-3404 (cell) ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2024 7:14 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jason Szumlanski Subject: [RE-wrenches] Simpliphi Phi 3.8 48V Case Color Is there a difference in the batteries in a white case vs. black case? Are they compatible in terms of paralleling them? Secondary question - I can't find the maximum number of these batteries in parallel. Is anyone aware of the capacity limit? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: BOSS.12 ul-9540-atm-with-model-number-detail.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 97559 bytes Desc: BOSS.12 ul-9540-atm-with-model-number-detail.pdf URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Wed May 29 12:10:40 2024 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Wed, 29 May 2024 11:10:40 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Simpliphi Phi 3.8 48V Case Color In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I was under impression that white case has a communication and black has none. Some inverters can communicate some can not with the white case. On a new project have matched inverter and battery. On Wed, May 29, 2024, 6:15 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Is there a difference in the batteries in a white case vs. black case? Are > they compatible in terms of paralleling them? > > Secondary question - I can't find the maximum number of these batteries in > parallel. Is anyone aware of the capacity limit? > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed May 29 12:23:56 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 29 May 2024 09:23:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Simpliphi Phi 3.8 48V Case Color In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005bc9b4f493ddca8a07586c13e2938a@sti.net> All I can add is get the closed loop version with electronics that can interface. It is a huge improvement over open loop. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-05-29 9:10 am, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches wrote: > I was under impression that white case has a communication and black > has none. Some inverters can communicate some can not with the white > case. On a new project have matched inverter and battery. > > On Wed, May 29, 2024, 6:15 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: > >> Is there a difference in the batteries in a white case vs. black case? >> Are they compatible in terms of paralleling them? >> >> Secondary question - I can't find the maximum number of these >> batteries in parallel. Is anyone aware of the capacity limit? >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed May 29 14:49:18 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Wed, 29 May 2024 12:49:18 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Simpliphi Phi 3.8 48V Case Color In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Black case 48v are older, probably in the 5 to 6 year range. I can't comment on exactly when they made the change from black plastic to white metal, but I just did a warranty replacement of old black plastic models with new white metal ones. I would think paralleling would not be a good idea, because of the age difference. As with lead acid, you probably could get away with it, but I don't think they would charge and discharge evenly. IMHO, those are too expensive to play with. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 5/29/2024 5:14 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > Is there a difference in the batteries in a white case vs. black case? > Are they compatible in terms of paralleling them? > > Secondary question - I can't find the maximum number of these > batteries in parallel. Is anyone aware of the capacity limit? > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > * > > * > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Wed May 29 18:15:36 2024 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Wed, 29 May 2024 17:15:36 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How many times can a rafter have a lag screw put in and out before it is no longer structurally sound? Some roofs getting their 3rd set of new shingles Message-ID: <12b501dab215$bbd421f0$337c65d0$@solarcentex.com> With all our Texas hail storms, we now have roof solar systems that might have to come down for the third time as hail-pockmarked shingles need replacement. We're at the 11-year mark of doing business and we have some customers ready for another insurance roof claim, So that means a new set of lag screws drilled into rafters.after how many times is that 2x6 rafter not 2x6 strength? I've asked this to my 3rd party structural engineer and instead of an answer got a "wow, hadn't thought of that." We've considered going to deck mounts to avoid rafters at the 3rd "detach and reset." Any of you guys consider this and have your techniques? I suppose in perfect world, the mount would stay in place and roofer would shingle around it but we still use old-school metal flashing so that is really not possible. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 136365 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed May 29 18:52:28 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 29 May 2024 16:52:28 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How many times can a rafter have a lag screw put in and out before it is no longer structurally sound? Some roofs getting their 3rd set of new shingles In-Reply-To: <12b501dab215$bbd421f0$337c65d0$@solarcentex.com> References: <12b501dab215$bbd421f0$337c65d0$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: Hi Scot What a fascinating issue. I can’t help as to the structural concerns but I like the deck mounts idea to make sure you don’t have any issues. Jay > On May 29, 2024, at 4:17 PM, Scot Arey via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > With all our Texas hail storms, we now have roof solar systems that might have to come down for the third time as hail-pockmarked shingles need replacement. We’re at the 11-year mark of doing business and we have some customers ready for another insurance roof claim, > > So that means a new set of lag screws drilled into rafters…after how many times is that 2x6 rafter not 2x6 strength? > > I’ve asked this to my 3rd party structural engineer and instead of an answer got a “wow, hadn’t thought of that.” We’ve considered going to deck mounts to avoid rafters at the 3rd “detach and reset.” > > Any of you guys consider this and have your techniques? I suppose in perfect world, the mount would stay in place and roofer would shingle around it but we still use old-school metal flashing so that is really not possible. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this. > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Wed May 29 18:54:19 2024 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Wed, 29 May 2024 17:54:19 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How many times can a rafter have a lag screw put in and out before it is no longer structurally sound? Some roofs getting their 3rd set of new shingles In-Reply-To: <12b501dab215$bbd421f0$337c65d0$@solarcentex.com> References: <12b501dab215$bbd421f0$337c65d0$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: That's a great question, Scot. I don't have an answer, but it did remind me that for these remove and replace jobs I always measure and record the old lag locations to make sure that my new penetrations are at least a couple of inches away. Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE On Wed, May 29, 2024, 5:16 PM Scot Arey via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > With all our Texas hail storms, we now have roof solar systems that might > have to come down for the third time as hail-pockmarked shingles need > replacement. We’re at the 11-year mark of doing business and we have some > customers ready for another insurance roof claim, > > > > So that means a new set of lag screws drilled into rafters…after how many > times is that 2x6 rafter not 2x6 strength? > > I’ve asked this to my 3rd party structural engineer and instead of an > answer got a “wow, hadn’t thought of that.” We’ve considered going to deck > mounts to avoid rafters at the 3rd “detach and reset.” > > Any of you guys consider this and have your techniques? I suppose in > perfect world, the mount would stay in place and roofer would shingle > around it but we still use old-school metal flashing so that is really not > possible. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 136365 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 136365 bytes Desc: not available URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Wed May 29 20:44:51 2024 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Wed, 29 May 2024 20:44:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small Wind Thread Message-ID: Thanks Dan for the suggestion Anyone out there know of a PIKA T701 wind turbine currently flying. Supposedly 100 were made and there may be 20 or more in Alaska but I only know of 2 in Vermont and would like to hear from other users. John Blittersdorf NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ CV Wind Service (and solar) 200 West Road N Chittenden, VT 05763 802-770-8625 www.offgridvermont.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Wed May 29 22:56:44 2024 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Thu, 30 May 2024 02:56:44 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small Wind Thread In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We installed 5 or 6 in Colorado. I know of 3 still operating Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. On May 29, 2024, at 6:45 PM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote:  Thanks Dan for the suggestion Anyone out there know of a PIKA T701 wind turbine currently flying. Supposedly 100 were made and there may be 20 or more in Alaska but I only know of 2 in Vermont and would like to hear from other users. John Blittersdorf NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ CV Wind Service (and solar) 200 West Road N Chittenden, VT 05763 802-770-8625 www.offgridvermont.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roland at renewablenergy.com Wed May 29 23:55:14 2024 From: roland at renewablenergy.com (Roland - RES) Date: Wed, 29 May 2024 17:55:14 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Simpliphi Phi 3.8 48V Case Color In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu May 30 00:17:50 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 29 May 2024 21:17:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How many times can a rafter have a lag screw put in and out before it is no longer structurally sound? Some roofs getting their 3rd set of new shingles In-Reply-To: <12b501dab215$bbd421f0$337c65d0$@solarcentex.com> References: <12b501dab215$bbd421f0$337c65d0$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: <7ab3de77e7c5b136bffda84c79357d06@mail.gmail.com> Scot: Fascinating question. It’s a bit ironic that the changing climate is damaging the equipment we are utilizing to combat climate change. A lag unscrewed will damage a wooden member less than a lag ripped out. >From your post it seems we are dealing with the former, rather than the latter. If your layout isn’t changing there is a likelihood that the new mounting locations will be at our near the old mounting locations. This will be true for a rafter lag or deck mount screw. It seems to me the process of re-screwing in the same spot in a rafter is just as questionable as re-screwing in the same spot in sheeting. I see no benefit in deck mounting and many disadvantages. If severe weather is an issue I would avoid deck mounting unless you have vetted the decking and the applicability of the chosen fasteners to that material. I would not standing-seam mount without knowing how the sheeting panels are secured and finding a method to calculate how many clips are needed given the increasing wind loads. I see two questions about reinstalling screws repeatedly: 1. Is the rafter less able to support loads? Or, 2. Is the rafter (or decking) less able to retain the fasteners holding the PV to the roof? Speculation on the above: 1. Wood fibers adhere to each other. They are not like a bundle of straws. If you damage a fiber in one place, it is supported on either side of the point of damage by this adherence. My guess is by just withdrawing screws a few times you do not compromise the load handling ability of a rafter member. Site built rafters require different considerations than trusses. Site built are a wild-card and need to be considered on a case-by-case basis. 2. If you penetrate wood with screws multiple times in a small area, you are going to make that area “soft.” Screw holding capabilities will be drastically reduced. Options that I see: 1. Flashed stanchions. The lags never need to be removed. 2. Blocking, to attach in new locations. 3. Sistering, again to attach in new locations. 4. Not deck mounting (IMHO). Anecdote: We had a tile roof mount inspected one August afternoon. The inspector insisted on looking in the attic. We asked why and he said this city has a particular concern about structural integrity of wood framed roofs. I was aware of this because I have had some silly arguments about this with the lead inspector. Apparently they have seen a lot of big-box solar company installers drive lags carelessly and had the lags blow out the side of the rafter. If they spot this they make the installer hire an engineer and design a system to sister the rafters to engineering standards. I totally get this concern. We use a rafter locator and are really careful. This is not to say we have not had a blow out now and then. You gotta have a feel for the torque resistance of a lag while seating. Thank you for bringing this up. As I said, fascinating (to this wonk). William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Scot Arey via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Wednesday, May 29, 2024 3:16 PM *To:* 'RE-wrenches' *Cc:* scot.arey at solarcentex.com *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] How many times can a rafter have a lag screw put in and out before it is no longer structurally sound? Some roofs getting their 3rd set of new shingles With all our Texas hail storms, we now have roof solar systems that might have to come down for the third time as hail-pockmarked shingles need replacement. We’re at the 11-year mark of doing business and we have some customers ready for another insurance roof claim, So that means a new set of lag screws drilled into rafters…after how many times is that 2x6 rafter not 2x6 strength? I’ve asked this to my 3rd party structural engineer and instead of an answer got a “wow, hadn’t thought of that.” We’ve considered going to deck mounts to avoid rafters at the 3rd “detach and reset.” Any of you guys consider this and have your techniques? I suppose in perfect world, the mount would stay in place and roofer would shingle around it but we still use old-school metal flashing so that is really not possible. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 28830 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu May 30 06:16:13 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 30 May 2024 06:16:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Residence ESS and NFPA 855 Message-ID: Has anyone dealt with a large ESS installation that exceeds the aggregate storage limits in NFPA 855? The limits are quite low for very large single family homes. I have a situation where we need 120 kWh minimum for an off-grid home. There is a building dedicated for the inverters and batteries that is 400 feet from the main home. The intent was to house the batteries there, but we are in excess of the 80 kWh limit for an accessory structure. It would be impractical to house part of the batteries on an exterior wall. Are there any "loopholes" that might allow this larger ESS for this property? And if not, has anyone attempted to comply with Ch 4-9? That seems onerous. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Thu May 30 08:37:44 2024 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Thu, 30 May 2024 05:37:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Residence ESS and NFPA 855 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm not looking at the most recent editions right, but the previous versions of both 855 and the IRC both have statements to the effect of "ESS installations exceeding the permitted individual or aggregate ratings shall be installed in accordance with Section xxx" (pointing to the IFC in the case of the IRC, and pointing to Chapters 4-9 in the case of 855), in other words basically follow the (more onerous) rules for ESS on other than one- and two-family dwellings. Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org On Thu, May 30, 2024 at 3:17 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Has anyone dealt with a large ESS installation that exceeds the aggregate > storage limits in NFPA 855? The limits are quite low for very large single > family homes. I have a situation where we need 120 kWh minimum for an > off-grid home. There is a building dedicated for the inverters and > batteries that is 400 feet from the main home. The intent was to house the > batteries there, but we are in excess of the 80 kWh limit for an accessory > structure. It would be impractical to house part of the batteries on an > exterior wall. > > Are there any "loopholes" that might allow this larger ESS for this > property? And if not, has anyone attempted to comply with Ch 4-9? That > seems onerous. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu May 30 09:36:53 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 30 May 2024 09:36:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Residence ESS and NFPA 855 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That is how I am reading it. Complying with chapters 4 through 9 would be required. However, I think it will be impossible to comply given the fire suppression requirements. This is a remote off-grid installation, and water supply would be an issue. And I'm not sure how to go about finding someone to write up a commissioning and decommissioning plan. On Thu, May 30, 2024, 8:38 AM Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I'm not looking at the most recent editions right, but the previous > versions of both 855 and the IRC both have statements to the effect of "ESS > installations exceeding the permitted individual or aggregate ratings shall > be installed in accordance with Section xxx" (pointing to the IFC in the > case of the IRC, and pointing to Chapters 4-9 in the case of 855), in other > words basically follow the (more onerous) rules for ESS on other than one- > and two-family dwellings. > > Brian Mehalic > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 > National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member > (520) 204-6639 > > Solar Energy International > http://www.solarenergy.org > > > > On Thu, May 30, 2024 at 3:17 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Has anyone dealt with a large ESS installation that exceeds the aggregate >> storage limits in NFPA 855? The limits are quite low for very large single >> family homes. I have a situation where we need 120 kWh minimum for an >> off-grid home. There is a building dedicated for the inverters and >> batteries that is 400 feet from the main home. The intent was to house the >> batteries there, but we are in excess of the 80 kWh limit for an accessory >> structure. It would be impractical to house part of the batteries on an >> exterior wall. >> >> Are there any "loopholes" that might allow this larger ESS for this >> property? And if not, has anyone attempted to comply with Ch 4-9? That >> seems onerous. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Thu May 30 10:04:54 2024 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Thu, 30 May 2024 07:04:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Residence ESS and NFPA 855 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jason, these might help: When agreeable with the ESS owner and approved by the AHJ, fire suppression systems and water supply are permitted to be omitted: ●IFC 1207.8 Where approved by the AHJ, the fire control and suppression systems, the size and separation requirements, and the water supply are permitted to be omitted in dedicated-use buildings located more than 100 ft (30.5 m) from buildings, lot lines that can be built upon, public ways, stored combustible materials, hazardous materials, high-piled stock, and other exposure hazards not associated with electrical grid infrastructure. ●NFPA 855 4.11.8 When approved by the AHJ, ESS shall be permitted to be installed in dedicated-use buildings without the protection of an automatic fire control and suppression system where large-scale fire testing conducted in accordance with 4.1.5 documents that an ESS fire does not compromise the means of egress and does not present an exposure hazard to buildings, lot lines, public ways, stored combustible materials, hazardous materials, high-piled stock, and other exposure hazards not associated with electrical grid infrastructure. I think the equipment manufacturer will have most of what you need for comm/decomm plan. On Thu, May 30, 2024 at 6:38 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > That is how I am reading it. Complying with chapters 4 through 9 would be > required. However, I think it will be impossible to comply given the fire > suppression requirements. This is a remote off-grid installation, and water > supply would be an issue. And I'm not sure how to go about finding someone > to write up a commissioning and decommissioning plan. > > On Thu, May 30, 2024, 8:38 AM Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I'm not looking at the most recent editions right, but the previous >> versions of both 855 and the IRC both have statements to the effect of "ESS >> installations exceeding the permitted individual or aggregate ratings shall >> be installed in accordance with Section xxx" (pointing to the IFC in the >> case of the IRC, and pointing to Chapters 4-9 in the case of 855), in other >> words basically follow the (more onerous) rules for ESS on other than one- >> and two-family dwellings. >> >> Brian Mehalic >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 >> National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member >> (520) 204-6639 >> >> Solar Energy International >> http://www.solarenergy.org >> >> >> >> On Thu, May 30, 2024 at 3:17 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Has anyone dealt with a large ESS installation that exceeds the >>> aggregate storage limits in NFPA 855? The limits are quite low for very >>> large single family homes. I have a situation where we need 120 kWh minimum >>> for an off-grid home. There is a building dedicated for the inverters and >>> batteries that is 400 feet from the main home. The intent was to house the >>> batteries there, but we are in excess of the 80 kWh limit for an accessory >>> structure. It would be impractical to house part of the batteries on an >>> exterior wall. >>> >>> Are there any "loopholes" that might allow this larger ESS for this >>> property? And if not, has anyone attempted to comply with Ch 4-9? That >>> seems onerous. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu May 30 14:41:41 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 30 May 2024 12:41:41 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How many times can a rafter have a lag screw put in and out before it is no longer structurally sound? Some roofs getting their 3rd set of new shingles In-Reply-To: <7ab3de77e7c5b136bffda84c79357d06@mail.gmail.com> References: <12b501dab215$bbd421f0$337c65d0$@solarcentex.com> <7ab3de77e7c5b136bffda84c79357d06@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I would add to this that the size of the lag is a factor too. 3/8" lags into 1-1/2" wide rafters are going to cause much more damage, and leave larger voids, than the new 1/4" high strength lags I use now.  I like the rafter sistering idea, as a solution, as well as moving the rails up or down several inches to get away from the previous hole.  A third idea is staggering the mount pattern from rail to rail, which is something we should all be doing anyway to insure the loads are more equally distributed across all the rafters. Then we just change the pattern on the 2nd installation. Unfortunately I think much of this will be lost, since some of the companies that roofers subcontract with to do these remove and replace jobs are not always the top solar contractors. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 5/29/2024 10:17 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Scot: > > Fascinating question.  It’s a bit ironic that the changing climate is > damaging the equipment we are utilizing to combat climate change. > > A lag unscrewed will damage a wooden member less than a lag ripped > out.  From your post it seems we are dealing with the former, rather > than the latter. > > If your layout isn’t changing there is a likelihood that the new > mounting locations will be at our near the old mounting locations.  > This will be true for a rafter lag or deck mount screw.  It seems to > me the process of re-screwing in the same spot in a rafter is just as > questionable as re-screwing in the same spot in sheeting.  I see no > benefit in deck mounting and many disadvantages. > > If severe weather is an issue I would avoid deck mounting unless you > have vetted the decking and the applicability of the chosen fasteners > to that material.  I would not standing-seam mount without knowing how > the sheeting panels are secured and finding a method to calculate how > many clips are needed given the increasing wind loads. > > I see two questions about reinstalling screws repeatedly: > > 1.Is the rafter less able to support loads?  Or, > > 2.Is the rafter (or decking) less able to retain the fasteners holding > the PV to the roof? > > Speculation on the above: > > 1.Wood fibers adhere to each other.  They are not like a bundle of > straws.  If you damage a fiber in one place, it is supported on either > side of the point of damage by this adherence.  My guess is by just > withdrawing screws a few times you do not compromise the load handling > ability of a rafter member. Site built rafters require different > considerations than trusses.  Site built are a wild-card and need to > be considered on a case-by-case basis. > > 2.If you penetrate wood with screws multiple times in a small area, > you are going to make that area “soft.”  Screw holding capabilities > will be drastically reduced. > > Options that I see: > > 1.Flashed stanchions.  The lags never need to be removed. > > 2.Blocking, to attach in new locations. > > 3.Sistering, again to attach in new locations. > > 4.Not deck mounting (IMHO). > > Anecdote: We had a tile roof mount inspected one August afternoon. The > inspector insisted on looking in the attic.  We asked why and he said > this city has a particular concern about structural integrity of wood > framed roofs.  I was aware of this because I have had some silly > arguments about this with the lead inspector.  Apparently they have > seen a lot of big-box solar company installers drive lags carelessly > and had the lags blow out the side of the rafter.  If they spot this > they make the installer hire an engineer and design a system to sister > the rafters to engineering standards.  I totally get this concern.  We > use a rafter locator and are really careful.  This is not to say we > have not had a blow out now and then.  You gotta have a feel for the > torque resistance of a lag while seating. > > Thank you for bringing this up.  As I said, fascinating (to this wonk). > > William > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *Scot Arey via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 29, 2024 3:16 PM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Cc:* scot.arey at solarcentex.com > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] How many times can a rafter have a lag screw > put in and out before it is no longer structurally sound? Some roofs > getting their 3rd set of new shingles > > With all our Texas hail storms, we now have roof solar systems that > might have to come down for the third time as hail-pockmarked shingles > need replacement. We’re at the 11-year mark of doing business and we > have some customers ready for another insurance roof claim, > > So that means a new set of lag screws drilled into rafters…after how > many times is that 2x6 rafter not 2x6 strength? > > I’ve asked this to my 3^rd party structural engineer and instead of an > answer got a “wow, hadn’t thought of that.” We’ve considered going to > deck mounts to avoid rafters at the 3^rd “detach and reset.” > > Any of you guys consider this and have your techniques? I suppose in > perfect world, the mount would stay in place and roofer would shingle > around it but we still use old-school metal flashing so that is really > not possible. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 28830 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu May 30 15:12:03 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 30 May 2024 12:12:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How many times can a rafter have a lag screw put in and out before it is no longer structurally sound? Some roofs getting their 3rd set of new shingles In-Reply-To: References: <12b501dab215$bbd421f0$337c65d0$@solarcentex.com> <7ab3de77e7c5b136bffda84c79357d06@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Scott, For liability you might want a before and after inspection by a really top inspector that you trust. I would also ask your insurance for guidance. My insurance is always telling me that going out of business is the typical last straw for roofers. Build a solar pergola😉 Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [2]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [3] [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-05-30 11:41 am, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > I would add to this that the size of the lag is a factor too. 3/8" > lags into 1-1/2" wide rafters are going to cause much more damage, and > leave larger voids, than the new 1/4" high strength lags I use now. I > like the rafter sistering idea, as a solution, as well as moving the > rails up or down several inches to get away from the previous hole. A > third idea is staggering the mount pattern from rail to rail, which is > something we should all be doing anyway to insure the loads are more > equally distributed across all the rafters. Then we just change the > pattern on the 2nd installation. > > Unfortunately I think much of this will be lost, since some of the > companies that roofers subcontract with to do these remove and replace > jobs are not always the top solar contractors. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > On 5/29/2024 10:17 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> Scot: >> >> Fascinating question. It's a bit ironic that the changing climate is >> damaging the equipment we are utilizing to combat climate change. >> >> A lag unscrewed will damage a wooden member less than a lag ripped >> out. From your post it seems we are dealing with the former, rather >> than the latter. >> >> If your layout isn't changing there is a likelihood that the new >> mounting locations will be at our near the old mounting locations. >> This will be true for a rafter lag or deck mount screw. It seems to >> me the process of re-screwing in the same spot in a rafter is just as >> questionable as re-screwing in the same spot in sheeting. I see no >> benefit in deck mounting and many disadvantages. >> >> If severe weather is an issue I would avoid deck mounting unless you >> have vetted the decking and the applicability of the chosen fasteners >> to that material. I would not standing-seam mount without knowing how >> the sheeting panels are secured and finding a method to calculate how >> many clips are needed given the increasing wind loads. >> >> I see two questions about reinstalling screws repeatedly: >> >> 1. Is the rafter less able to support loads? Or, >> >> 2. Is the rafter (or decking) less able to retain the fasteners >> holding the PV to the roof? >> >> Speculation on the above: >> >> 1. Wood fibers adhere to each other. They are not like a bundle of >> straws. If you damage a fiber in one place, it is supported on either >> side of the point of damage by this adherence. My guess is by just >> withdrawing screws a few times you do not compromise the load handling >> ability of a rafter member. Site built rafters require different >> considerations than trusses. Site built are a wild-card and need to >> be considered on a case-by-case basis. >> >> 2. If you penetrate wood with screws multiple times in a small area, >> you are going to make that area "soft." Screw holding capabilities >> will be drastically reduced. >> >> Options that I see: >> >> 1. Flashed stanchions. The lags never need to be removed. >> >> 2. Blocking, to attach in new locations. >> >> 3. Sistering, again to attach in new locations. >> >> 4. Not deck mounting (IMHO). >> >> Anecdote: We had a tile roof mount inspected one August afternoon. >> The inspector insisted on looking in the attic. We asked why and he >> said this city has a particular concern about structural integrity of >> wood framed roofs. I was aware of this because I have had some silly >> arguments about this with the lead inspector. Apparently they have >> seen a lot of big-box solar company installers drive lags carelessly >> and had the lags blow out the side of the rafter. If they spot this >> they make the installer hire an engineer and design a system to sister >> the rafters to engineering standards. I totally get this concern. We >> use a rafter locator and are really careful. This is not to say we >> have not had a blow out now and then. You gotta have a feel for the >> torque resistance of a lag while seating. >> >> Thank you for bringing this up. As I said, fascinating (to this >> wonk). >> >> William >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com [1] >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] >> On Behalf Of Scot Arey via RE-wrenches >> Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2024 3:16 PM >> To: 'RE-wrenches' >> Cc: scot.arey at solarcentex.com >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] How many times can a rafter have a lag screw >> put in and out before it is no longer structurally sound? Some roofs >> getting their 3rd set of new shingles >> >> With all our Texas hail storms, we now have roof solar systems that >> might have to come down for the third time as hail-pockmarked shingles >> need replacement. We're at the 11-year mark of doing business and we >> have some customers ready for another insurance roof claim, >> >> So that means a new set of lag screws drilled into rafters...after how >> many times is that 2x6 rafter not 2x6 strength? >> >> I've asked this to my 3rd party structural engineer and instead of an >> answer got a "wow, hadn't thought of that." We've considered going to >> deck mounts to avoid rafters at the 3rd "detach and reset." >> >> Any of you guys consider this and have your techniques? I suppose in >> perfect world, the mount would stay in place and roofer would shingle >> around it but we still use old-school metal flashing so that is really >> not possible. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.millersolar.com/ [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 28830 bytes Desc: not available URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Thu May 30 16:03:26 2024 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Thu, 30 May 2024 15:03:26 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How many times can a rafter have a lag screw put in and out before it is no longer structurally sound? Some roofs getting their 3rd set of new shingles In-Reply-To: References: <12b501dab215$bbd421f0$337c65d0$@solarcentex.com> <7ab3de77e7c5b136bffda84c79357d06@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <045e01dab2cc$6fed5bf0$4fc813d0$@solarcentex.com> Great, thoughtful answers from all. I’m going to push this to the FineHomeBuilding podcast crew for their ideas, too. I hate to ask the question I might not want to hear the answer to, but I can’t think of anything more horrible than a failed rafter. That would be the resi equivalent of the infamous Bakersfield fire. Thanks, Scot From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Ray Walters via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2024 1:42 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: Ray Walters Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] How many times can a rafter have a lag screw put in and out before it is no longer structurally sound? Some roofs getting their 3rd set of new shingles I would add to this that the size of the lag is a factor too. 3/8" lags into 1-1/2" wide rafters are going to cause much more damage, and leave larger voids, than the new 1/4" high strength lags I use now. I like the rafter sistering idea, as a solution, as well as moving the rails up or down several inches to get away from the previous hole. A third idea is staggering the mount pattern from rail to rail, which is something we should all be doing anyway to insure the loads are more equally distributed across all the rafters. Then we just change the pattern on the 2nd installation. Unfortunately I think much of this will be lost, since some of the companies that roofers subcontract with to do these remove and replace jobs are not always the top solar contractors. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 5/29/2024 10:17 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: Scot: Fascinating question. It’s a bit ironic that the changing climate is damaging the equipment we are utilizing to combat climate change. A lag unscrewed will damage a wooden member less than a lag ripped out. >From your post it seems we are dealing with the former, rather than the latter. If your layout isn’t changing there is a likelihood that the new mounting locations will be at our near the old mounting locations. This will be true for a rafter lag or deck mount screw. It seems to me the process of re-screwing in the same spot in a rafter is just as questionable as re-screwing in the same spot in sheeting. I see no benefit in deck mounting and many disadvantages. If severe weather is an issue I would avoid deck mounting unless you have vetted the decking and the applicability of the chosen fasteners to that material. I would not standing-seam mount without knowing how the sheeting panels are secured and finding a method to calculate how many clips are needed given the increasing wind loads. I see two questions about reinstalling screws repeatedly: 1. Is the rafter less able to support loads? Or, 2. Is the rafter (or decking) less able to retain the fasteners holding the PV to the roof? Speculation on the above: 1. Wood fibers adhere to each other. They are not like a bundle of straws. If you damage a fiber in one place, it is supported on either side of the point of damage by this adherence. My guess is by just withdrawing screws a few times you do not compromise the load handling ability of a rafter member. Site built rafters require different considerations than trusses. Site built are a wild-card and need to be considered on a case-by-case basis. 2. If you penetrate wood with screws multiple times in a small area, you are going to make that area “soft.” Screw holding capabilities will be drastically reduced. Options that I see: 1. Flashed stanchions. The lags never need to be removed. 2. Blocking, to attach in new locations. 3. Sistering, again to attach in new locations. 4. Not deck mounting (IMHO). Anecdote: We had a tile roof mount inspected one August afternoon. The inspector insisted on looking in the attic. We asked why and he said this city has a particular concern about structural integrity of wood framed roofs. I was aware of this because I have had some silly arguments about this with the lead inspector. Apparently they have seen a lot of big-box solar company installers drive lags carelessly and had the lags blow out the side of the rafter. If they spot this they make the installer hire an engineer and design a system to sister the rafters to engineering standards. I totally get this concern. We use a rafter locator and are really careful. This is not to say we have not had a blow out now and then. You gotta have a feel for the torque resistance of a lag while seating. Thank you for bringing this up. As I said, fascinating (to this wonk). William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Scot Arey via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2024 3:16 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Cc: scot.arey at solarcentex.com Subject: [RE-wrenches] How many times can a rafter have a lag screw put in and out before it is no longer structurally sound? Some roofs getting their 3rd set of new shingles With all our Texas hail storms, we now have roof solar systems that might have to come down for the third time as hail-pockmarked shingles need replacement. We’re at the 11-year mark of doing business and we have some customers ready for another insurance roof claim, So that means a new set of lag screws drilled into rafters…after how many times is that 2x6 rafter not 2x6 strength? I’ve asked this to my 3rd party structural engineer and instead of an answer got a “wow, hadn’t thought of that.” We’ve considered going to deck mounts to avoid rafters at the 3rd “detach and reset.” Any of you guys consider this and have your techniques? I suppose in perfect world, the mount would stay in place and roofer would shingle around it but we still use old-school metal flashing so that is really not possible. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 28830 bytes Desc: not available URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Thu May 30 22:02:27 2024 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Thu, 30 May 2024 22:02:27 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small Wind Thread In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Of the other 2 or 3. PIKAs you installed are you aware of any failures? I installed one at my place and had to sell it to one of' my customers when I found out that they were sold out, not aware that they were not going to make any more. It worked great for me and is still running fine at my customers' high elevation home site. I get a lot of requests for a similar sized turbine but can't find anything. I'm still trying to get in contact with a Florida distributor of the Bornay 1.5 kw 2 blade turbine which is the only one I can find in the weight and price range to go on old Bergy XL.1 towers. I really liked the Pika as it was extremely quiet, no problem with a 1000' power run with the high voltage DC output, good monitoring and excellent voltage control. I was planning to add solar at the wind site as that wind site was also the best solar site on my property. I still have the PV link. I'm giving a small wind workshop at the Energy Fair in Custer and once again having a hard time finding a reliable wind turbine to recommend. Almost all my current customers are off grid and wind power really helps in our New England winter. About half of my XL.1 installs are still running but the noise level is an issue on several and they have to shut them down to keep the neighbors happy during significant wind events. Any suggestions? John Blittersdorf NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ CV Wind Service (and solar) 200 West Road N Chittenden, VT 05763 802-770-8625 www.offgridvermont.com On Wed, May 29, 2024 at 10:56 PM Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > We installed 5 or 6 in Colorado. > I know of 3 still operating > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > > On May 29, 2024, at 6:45 PM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Thanks Dan for the suggestion > Anyone out there know of a PIKA T701 wind turbine currently flying. > Supposedly 100 were made and there may be 20 or more in Alaska but I only > know of 2 in Vermont and would like to hear from other users. > > John Blittersdorf > > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ > > CV Wind Service (and solar) > > 200 West Road > > N Chittenden, VT 05763 > > 802-770-8625 > > www.offgridvermont.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Fri May 31 00:42:16 2024 From: frenergy at psln.com (Bill Battagin) Date: Thu, 30 May 2024 21:42:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NOS SMA-41 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <93848575-0119-42ee-bb03-17fb02452a82@psln.com> Jeremy,             You looking for new or used? Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, owner 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) CA. C10 Lic # 874049 Solar Powered since 1982 Home of the Sunny Side Up On 5/28/2024 4:51 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches wrote: > Looking for an SB3.8-1SP-US-41 if anyone has one please contact me off > list > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Fri May 31 00:42:37 2024 From: frenergy at psln.com (Bill Battagin) Date: Thu, 30 May 2024 21:42:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NOS SMA-41 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <15f31a7d-7f6e-42ba-bc13-15da7649e170@psln.com> Jeremy,             You looking for new or used?  Could it be a -40? Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, owner 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) CA. C10 Lic # 874049 Solar Powered since 1982 Home of the Sunny Side Up On 5/28/2024 4:51 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches wrote: > Looking for an SB3.8-1SP-US-41 if anyone has one please contact me off > list > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Fri May 31 00:56:28 2024 From: frenergy at psln.com (Bill Battagin) Date: Thu, 30 May 2024 21:56:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Simpliphi Phi 3.8 48V Case Color In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <832f4b56-f60a-46e4-b160-c0e8c4a7aeae@psln.com> Jason,             I called SimpliPhi on this before I added 4 more 3.8M (white, steel case) to a pack of 8 of the older black plastic case 3.8's.  They told me it was no problem, this now pack of 12 has been in service for about 7 months.  Of course there is a procedure for marrying batteries in this way being sure all batteries are fully charged before the parallel wiring is commissioned as one pack.  They told me once what the max number was but it's slipped my mind, it was way more than I remember thinking I could ever need for an install. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, owner 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) CA. C10 Lic # 874049 Solar Powered since 1982 Home of the Sunny Side Up On 5/29/2024 4:14 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > Is there a difference in the batteries in a white case vs. black case? > Are they compatible in terms of paralleling them? > > Secondary question - I can't find the maximum number of these > batteries in parallel. Is anyone aware of the capacity limit? > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > * > > * > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Fri May 31 01:05:54 2024 From: frenergy at psln.com (Bill Battagin) Date: Thu, 30 May 2024 22:05:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Simpliphi Phi 3.8 48V Case Color In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: To be clear, I asked SimpliPhi only about their open comm 48V 3.8 batteries. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, owner 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) CA. C10 Lic # 874049 Solar Powered since 1982 Home of the Sunny Side Up On 5/29/2024 4:14 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > Is there a difference in the batteries in a white case vs. black case? > Are they compatible in terms of paralleling them? > > Secondary question - I can't find the maximum number of these > batteries in parallel. Is anyone aware of the capacity limit? > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > * > > * > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Fri May 31 01:09:59 2024 From: frenergy at psln.com (Bill Battagin) Date: Thu, 30 May 2024 22:09:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Simpliphi Phi 3.8 48V Case Color In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The change from Black case to White case was about 3.5 years ago.  The current white case version is either open loop (SimpliPhi 3.8M) or closed loop (AmpliPhi 3.8M) Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, owner 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) CA. C10 Lic # 874049 Solar Powered since 1982 Home of the Sunny Side Up On 5/29/2024 11:49 AM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Black case 48v are older, probably in the 5 to 6 year range. I can't > comment on exactly when they made the change from black plastic to > white metal, but I just did a warranty replacement of old black > plastic models with new white metal ones. I would think paralleling > would not be a good idea, because of the age difference. As with lead > acid, you probably could get away with it, but I don't think they > would charge and discharge evenly. IMHO, those are too expensive to > play with. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > On 5/29/2024 5:14 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >> Is there a difference in the batteries in a white case vs. black >> case? Are they compatible in terms of paralleling them? >> >> Secondary question - I can't find the maximum number of these >> batteries in parallel. Is anyone aware of the capacity limit? >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> * >> >> * >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri May 31 12:07:51 2024 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Fri, 31 May 2024 12:07:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Tech Support In-Reply-To: <92986dffbb2670607937728b06bf9866@redwoodalliance.org> References: <92986dffbb2670607937728b06bf9866@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <831fbee5eadf6d9ccc2ddf2a65612059@redwoodalliance.org> This is a follow up. There is good news for a change! Outback tech support is back and warranties will be honored. I spoke with Anthony this morning, who has been with Outback a long time and knows his stuff. Currently, warranties are being handled through Enersys, and the process of warranty replacement may be a bit clunky for a while. This is expected to last about 6 months. All record of past technical support cases have been lost in the transition of ownership. They are starting over with the data on support cases. Best, Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ --- On 2024-05-24 18:20, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hello All, > > With the sale of Outback, their tech support seems to have disappeared. > Around the time of the sale, tech support had agreed to send me a new > control stack for a Radian. After a long delay, they did send it, but > were quick to remind me to return the core. > > When the new control stack was installed, the inverter would not work. > The error message was AC Out Voltage Low. I put the old one back in and > returned the one they sent. There is no one to talk to, and no one > answers email. > > Do you know if the new owners are planning to honor product warranty? > Is tech support coming back? > > This is a pretty rough transition. It will likely leave a number of > people in the dark. > > Fun Times Indeed! > > Drake > > _Drake Chamberlin_ > > _Athens Electric LLC_ > > _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ > > _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Mon Jun 3 09:41:15 2024 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2024 09:41:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics Off Line??? Message-ID: Seems Optics is off line again. Anyone have news? John Blittersdorf NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ CV Wind Service (and solar) 200 West Road N Chittenden, VT 05763 802-770-8625 www.offgridvermont.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Mon Jun 3 12:09:04 2024 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2024 09:09:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Optics_Off_Line=3F=3F=3F?= Message-ID: <1717430944.27620464@webmail.finestplanet.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: optics.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 100680 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rick at solshineenergy.com Mon Jun 3 16:22:46 2024 From: rick at solshineenergy.com (rick at solshineenergy.com) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2024 16:22:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] IRS Audit Message-ID: Wrenches, Has anyone had a customer that was being audited and requesting a manufacturers’ certification statement for their PV equipment? The only manufacturer that has been able to provide a statement has been REC. I’m attaching a copy for reference. Is there an assumption that most equipment qualifies? The IRS definition for “qualified solar electric property” is pretty vague - "Qualified solar electric property expenditure. The term "qualified solar electric property expenditure" means an expenditure for property which uses solar energy to generate electricity for use in a dwelling unit located in the United States and used as a residence by the taxpayer." Thanks, , rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergy.com Roanoke, VA Office: 540.235.3095 Mobile: 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE -- This email is intended only for the person(s) named in the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is confidential, privileged and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender of the error and delete the message. Thank you.” -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Manufacturers Certification Statement April 2024.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 57676 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon Jun 3 16:52:20 2024 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2024 16:52:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] IRS Audit Message-ID: <4ces727tughdd7m9q3i7qk5p.1717447904262@email.lge.com> Wont they accept a statement from the installer listing the equipment used?-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: rick--- via RE-wrenchesDate: Mon, Jun 3, 2024 4:23 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: rick at solshineenergy.com;Subject:[RE-wrenches] IRS AuditWrenches,Has anyone had a customer that was being audited and requesting a manufacturers’ certification statement for their PV equipment?  The only manufacturer that has been able to provide a statement has been REC. I’m attaching a copy for reference. Is there an assumption that most equipment qualifies? The IRS definition for “qualified solar electric property” is pretty vague - "Qualified solar electric property expenditure. The term "qualified solar electric property expenditure" means an expenditure for property which uses solar energy to generate electricity for use in a dwelling unit located in the United States and used as a residence by the taxpayer."Thanks,, -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pieter at offgridenterprises.org Mon Jun 3 16:53:58 2024 From: pieter at offgridenterprises.org (pieter offgridenterprises.org) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2024 20:53:58 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] IRS Audit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes and no, We had the IRS send an agent to one of our clients Ranch, and they asked to see the equipment but did not request any further documentation. Pieter Huebner From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of rick--- via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, June 3, 2024 2:23 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: rick at solshineenergy.com Subject: [RE-wrenches] IRS Audit Wrenches, Has anyone had a customer that was being audited and requesting a manufacturers’ certification statement for their PV equipment? The only manufacturer that has been able to provide a statement has been REC. I’m attaching a copy for reference. Is there an assumption that most equipment qualifies? The IRS definition for “qualified solar electric property” is pretty vague - "Qualified solar electric property expenditure. The term "qualified solar electric property expenditure" means an expenditure for property which uses solar energy to generate electricity for use in a dwelling unit located in the United States and used as a residence by the taxpayer." Thanks, , rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergy.com Roanoke, VA Office: 540.235.3095 Mobile: 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE -- This email is intended only for the person(s) named in the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is confidential, privileged and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender of the error and delete the message. Thank you.” -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Tue Jun 4 07:30:06 2024 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2024 07:30:06 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] IRS Audit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <495dbfca-449d-4667-ba52-472967d5b7d5@entech-engineering.com> Qualified equipment I think would be it's UL certification.  I have never run into this issue though.  Chris On 6/3/2024 4:53 PM, pieter offgridenterprises.org via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Yes and no,  We had the IRS send an agent to one of our clients Ranch, > and they asked to see the equipment but did not request any further > documentation. > > Pieter Huebner > > *From:*RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *rick--- via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Monday, June 3, 2024 2:23 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* rick at solshineenergy.com > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] IRS Audit > > Wrenches, > > Has anyone had a customer that was being audited and requesting a > manufacturers’ certification statement for their PV equipment?  The > only manufacturer that has been able to provide a statement has been > REC. I’m attaching a copy for reference. Is there an assumption that > most equipment qualifies? The IRS definition for “qualified solar > electric property” is pretty vague - > >  "/Qualified solar electric property expenditure. The term "qualified > solar electric property expenditure" means an expenditure for property > which uses solar energy to generate electricity for use in a dwelling > unit located in the United States and used as a residence by the > taxpayer/." > > Thanks, > > , > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergy.com > Roanoke, VA > > Office: 540.235.3095 > Mobile: 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE -- This email is intended only for the > person(s) named in > the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains > information that is > confidential, privileged and/or exempt from disclosure under > applicable law. If you have > received this message in error, please notify the sender of the error > and delete the > message. Thank you.” > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel           ENTECH Engineering Inc.    PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                   401-477-5773 EE Logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/vcard Size: 203 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pieter at offgridenterprises.org Tue Jun 4 10:18:51 2024 From: pieter at offgridenterprises.org (pieter offgridenterprises.org) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2024 14:18:51 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] IRS Audit In-Reply-To: <495dbfca-449d-4667-ba52-472967d5b7d5@entech-engineering.com> References: <495dbfca-449d-4667-ba52-472967d5b7d5@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: The AHJ is looking for the UL certification. The IRS agent did not. The agent looked at the equipment and the displays to see that the system was operational, paid no attention to any labels. Pieter Huebner From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, June 4, 2024 5:30 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: Christopher Warfel Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] IRS Audit Qualified equipment I think would be it's UL certification. I have never run into this issue though. Chris On 6/3/2024 4:53 PM, pieter offgridenterprises.org via RE-wrenches wrote: Yes and no, We had the IRS send an agent to one of our clients Ranch, and they asked to see the equipment but did not request any further documentation. Pieter Huebner From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of rick--- via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, June 3, 2024 2:23 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: rick at solshineenergy.com Subject: [RE-wrenches] IRS Audit Wrenches, Has anyone had a customer that was being audited and requesting a manufacturers’ certification statement for their PV equipment? The only manufacturer that has been able to provide a statement has been REC. I’m attaching a copy for reference. Is there an assumption that most equipment qualifies? The IRS definition for “qualified solar electric property” is pretty vague - "Qualified solar electric property expenditure. The term "qualified solar electric property expenditure" means an expenditure for property which uses solar energy to generate electricity for use in a dwelling unit located in the United States and used as a residence by the taxpayer." Thanks, , rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergy.com Roanoke, VA Office: 540.235.3095 Mobile: 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE -- This email is intended only for the person(s) named in the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is confidential, privileged and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender of the error and delete the message. Thank you.” _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Christopher Warfel ENTECH Engineering Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-477-5773 [EE Logo] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Jun 5 09:01:53 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2024 09:01:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding Message-ID: Can anybody clarify the following instruction from the manual? "GND the panel MOUNTS/FRAMES to any GND outside the circuit via 12AWG wire" Does this mean do not connect the array equipment grounding conductor to the grounding terminal in the inverter? Where would be the suggested place to connect the equipment grounding conductor, and why does it make a difference? It would still be electrically bonded to the grounding terminal in the inverter. I'm asking because I do, in fact, have an equipment grounding conductor from the array connected to the ground terminal in the inverter at a home. I am getting an F08 GFDI fault. The manual doesn't say anything about the DC side with respect to this error. It suggests it is an AC current leakage to ground. But Sol-Ark tech support suggested that I disconnect the PV to rule it out as a source of the fault. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Wed Jun 5 09:26:11 2024 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2024 08:26:11 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I usually get the 08 GFDI error when I haven’t bonded neutral to ground downstream. (Typically because I booted up the inverter after DC connection but before any AC wires are landed.) That goes away once it is fully commissioned. I get the F23 - Tz_GFCI_OC_Fault If is related to the PV array, leakage or bonding. I do always run a properly sized ground wire from the array to the inverter ground. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On Jun 5, 2024, at 8:03 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Can anybody clarify the following instruction from the manual? > > "GND the panel MOUNTS/FRAMES to any GND outside the circuit via 12AWG wire" > > Does this mean do not connect the array equipment grounding conductor to the grounding terminal in the inverter? Where would be the suggested place to connect the equipment grounding conductor, and why does it make a difference? It would still be electrically bonded to the grounding terminal in the inverter. > > I'm asking because I do, in fact, have an equipment grounding conductor from the array connected to the ground terminal in the inverter at a home. I am getting an F08 GFDI fault. The manual doesn't say anything about the DC side with respect to this error. It suggests it is an AC current leakage to ground. But Sol-Ark tech support suggested that I disconnect the PV to rule it out as a source of the fault. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Jun 5 09:53:05 2024 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2024 07:53:05 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jason, You should be able to land your PV EGC in the inverter ground bar. You could do a quick resistance check to verify the +, - PV Is there a bond somewhere (upstream service panel or in the Sol-Ark itself) between ground and neutral? If not, this can cause this fault. On Wed, Jun 5, 2024 at 7:03 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Can anybody clarify the following instruction from the manual? > > "GND the panel MOUNTS/FRAMES to any GND outside the circuit via 12AWG wire" > > Does this mean do not connect the array equipment grounding conductor to > the grounding terminal in the inverter? Where would be the suggested place > to connect the equipment grounding conductor, and why does it make a > difference? It would still be electrically bonded to the grounding terminal > in the inverter. > > I'm asking because I do, in fact, have an equipment grounding conductor > from the array connected to the ground terminal in the inverter at a home. > I am getting an F08 GFDI fault. The manual doesn't say anything about the > DC side with respect to this error. It suggests it is an AC current leakage > to ground. But Sol-Ark tech support suggested that I disconnect the PV to > rule it out as a source of the fault. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Jun 5 09:59:53 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2024 09:59:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is a partial backup scenario and the main service panel has a solid neutral to ground bond. I have not been able to find anywhere else where there is a bond, but there is always the chance that there is a neutral wire in a switch box or outlet box somewhere in the house that is touching an equipment ground or metallic enclosure. On Wed, Jun 5, 2024, 9:53 AM Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Jason, > > You should be able to land your PV EGC in the inverter ground bar. You > could do a quick resistance check to verify the +, - PV > > Is there a bond somewhere (upstream service panel or in the Sol-Ark > itself) between ground and neutral? If not, this can cause this fault. > > On Wed, Jun 5, 2024 at 7:03 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Can anybody clarify the following instruction from the manual? >> >> "GND the panel MOUNTS/FRAMES to any GND outside the circuit via 12AWG >> wire" >> >> Does this mean do not connect the array equipment grounding conductor to >> the grounding terminal in the inverter? Where would be the suggested place >> to connect the equipment grounding conductor, and why does it make a >> difference? It would still be electrically bonded to the grounding terminal >> in the inverter. >> >> I'm asking because I do, in fact, have an equipment grounding conductor >> from the array connected to the ground terminal in the inverter at a home. >> I am getting an F08 GFDI fault. The manual doesn't say anything about the >> DC side with respect to this error. It suggests it is an AC current leakage >> to ground. But Sol-Ark tech support suggested that I disconnect the PV to >> rule it out as a source of the fault. >> >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hiltondier at gmail.com Wed Jun 5 10:01:20 2024 From: hiltondier at gmail.com (Hilton Dier, III) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2024 10:01:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] IRS Audit Message-ID: I had to look into this once and it really isn't any more complex than the statement. It's not about UL listing or whatever. Does it generate electricity from solar? Is it installed on or connected to an occupied residential home? The restriction is that it has to be just the system itself. If you have to replace the roofing material before installing, that roofing material is not considered "qualified." Conduit in a trench to a ground mount is qualified. Landscaping work to clean up after the trench is not. Hilton Dier Missisquoi River Hydro LLC Renewable Energy Design -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Wed Jun 5 13:41:07 2024 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2024 13:41:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Support Message-ID: Is anyone else having trouble getting through to Sol-Ark support? Howie Michaelson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Wed Jun 5 14:07:43 2024 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2024 18:07:43 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: They are swamped with calls while they work to transition, and partially depends on a third party per user comments on Sol-ark users FB group after talking to tech support. Best regards, Lloyd Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, June 5, 2024 1:41:07 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Howie Michaelson Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Support Is anyone else having trouble getting through to Sol-Ark support? Howie Michaelson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Wed Jun 5 14:07:31 2024 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2024 11:07:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Today they tried launching their monitoring migration from Inteless/PVPro to Mysolark/solarkcloud.com I had several sites throwing multiple bogus error codes and concerned homeowners calling my staff all morning. SolArk tech support probably drowning in that Error codes:: F49 Backup_Battery_Fault F51 Battery_TempHigh F53 AC_B_InductCurr_DcHigh_Fault F54 AC_C_InductCurr_DcHigh_Fault F57 AC backfeed fault On Wed, Jun 5, 2024 at 10:41 AM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Is anyone else having trouble getting through to Sol-Ark support? > Howie Michaelson > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Wed Jun 5 14:13:10 2024 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2024 18:13:10 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Howie, Text from FB user Scott Shadle Sol-Ark owners Information network: Migration update (edit at 10 am central...my plant is now populating the new solark app. So...hang in there) Just had a very nice call with Sol Ark tech support. He suggested that perhaps my Facebook update would help reduce the huge number of calls they are getting. I took notes. I don't work for Sol Ark. I have no idea if any of the following is factual other than it is what the tech support person relayed to me. 1. The migration has been challenging. They are using a 3rd party entity to do the work. The did a first test of 100 sites. A second test of 4,000 sites. At that point they did not have any material problems and attempted a full roll out of the remaining sites. They had a lot (no definition of "a lot") of sites that had problems. So, it is accurate that many of you are seeing the migration but a significant number of others (like me) are not getting information on either the old pv pro or the new mysolark. 2. Why? He said they believe it has to do with the wifi dongle. I didn't try to get more specific. Just said that the wifi dongle is not pointing at either site, so...like my situation...you are not able to see any information inside any of the apps...old or new. Nor can you access your 15k to do any remote changes. If you want to make changes you will have to go to the device. 3. Fix and timing? Unknown. He asked that I be patient and give it a week, but hoped it would be resolved sooner. 4. Is there any steps I the customer can take to make this better. No. It is all on their side. 5. Data migration. He suggested that the data migration is still an open topic. I expressed to him that in my emails with the PV Pro tech support they only allow for you to download one day at a time.....or....use their reporting screens to get summarized information in graphical format (not the actual data). He said the whole data migration topic is still being worked on by Sol Ark and they are reaching out to their installers and of course end user customers to try and layer in more and more functionality on the data reporting / data harvesting side of things. The suggestion...without any specifics...was that the new site will have much more functionality soon....and...they can continue to improve it over time. They did not have that ability with PV Pro. 6. Mobile app. For those not aware, there is a new app (I'm on android and it was easy to download and put in my plant) mysolark. He asked that we be patient. Said tech support is getting swamped with calls and that they (tech support) can't really do anything to help until the 3rd party company fixes the migration issue(s). Nice guy. Reasonable responses. Hopefully this will help some of you who are puzzled by fellow Facebook users on this board that are having no issues. I'm going to give it a week. Best regards ________________________________ From: Lloyd Hoffstatter Sent: Wednesday, June 5, 2024 2:07:43 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Howie Michaelson Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Support They are swamped with calls while they work to transition, and partially depends on a third party per user comments on Sol-ark users FB group after talking to tech support. Best regards, Lloyd Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, June 5, 2024 1:41:07 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Howie Michaelson Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Support Is anyone else having trouble getting through to Sol-Ark support? Howie Michaelson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Jun 5 14:16:07 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2024 11:16:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <946d7c22b39e67391ecb2d8efe5fbc46@sti.net> Optics was down again last weekend and I read this comment below from the Outback forum. > Day 11….without communication with our Sol Ark 15k inverter….Thanks > Sol-Ark Solar * Quote [4] Post [5] Mon Jun 03, 2024 4:07 pm Who would have known? A conspiracy theorist that is right??? So it is no longer a conspiracy? 😉😎 Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [2]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [3] [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-06-05 11:13 am, Lloyd Hoffstatter via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Howie, > > Text from FB user Scott Shadle Sol-Ark owners Information network: > > Migration update (edit at 10 am central...my plant is now populating > the new solark app. So...hang in there) > > Just had a very nice call with Sol Ark tech support. He suggested that > perhaps my Facebook update would help reduce the huge number of calls > they are getting. I took notes. I don't work for Sol Ark. I have no > idea if any of the following is factual other than it is what the tech > support person relayed to me. > > 1. The migration has been challenging. They are using a 3rd party > entity to do the work. The did a first test of 100 sites. A second > test of 4,000 sites. At that point they did not have any material > problems and attempted a full roll out of the remaining sites. They > had a lot (no definition of "a lot") of sites that had problems. So, > it is accurate that many of you are seeing the migration but a > significant number of others (like me) are not getting information on > either the old pv pro or the new mysolark. > > 2. Why? He said they believe it has to do with the wifi dongle. I > didn't try to get more specific. Just said that the wifi dongle is not > pointing at either site, so...like my situation...you are not able to > see any information inside any of the apps...old or new. Nor can you > access your 15k to do any remote changes. If you want to make changes > you will have to go to the device. > > 3. Fix and timing? Unknown. He asked that I be patient and give it a > week, but hoped it would be resolved sooner. > > 4. Is there any steps I the customer can take to make this better. > No. It is all on their side. > > 5. Data migration. He suggested that the data migration is still an > open topic. I expressed to him that in my emails with the PV Pro tech > support they only allow for you to download one day at a > time.....or....use their reporting screens to get summarized > information in graphical format (not the actual data). He said the > whole data migration topic is still being worked on by Sol Ark and they > are reaching out to their installers and of course end user customers > to try and layer in more and more functionality on the data reporting / > data harvesting side of things. The suggestion...without any > specifics...was that the new site will have much more functionality > soon....and...they can continue to improve it over time. They did not > have that ability with PV Pro. > > 6. Mobile app. For those not aware, there is a new app (I'm on android > and it was easy to download and put in my plant) mysolark. > > He asked that we be patient. Said tech support is getting swamped with > calls and that they (tech support) can't really do anything to help > until the 3rd party company fixes the migration issue(s). > > Nice guy. Reasonable responses. > > Hopefully this will help some of you who are puzzled by fellow Facebook > users on this board that are having no issues. > I'm going to give it a week. > > Best regards > ------------------------- > > From: Lloyd Hoffstatter > Sent: Wednesday, June 5, 2024 2:07:43 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Howie Michaelson > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Support > > They are swamped with calls while they work to transition, and > partially depends on a third party per user comments on Sol-ark users > FB group after talking to tech support. > Best regards, > Lloyd > > Get Outlook for iOS [1] > ------------------------- > > From: RE-wrenches on behalf > of Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches > Sent: Wednesday, June 5, 2024 1:41:07 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Howie Michaelson > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Support > > Is anyone else having trouble getting through to Sol-Ark support? > > Howie Michaelson > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] https://aka.ms/o0ukef [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] https://offgridsolar1.com/ [4] https://forum.solar-electric.com/home/leaving?allowTrusted=1&target=https%3A%2F%2Fforum.outbackpower.com%2Fposting.php%3Fmode%3Dquote%26p%3D106920 [5] https://forum.solar-electric.com/home/leaving?allowTrusted=1&target=https%3A%2F%2Fforum.outbackpower.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D106920%23p106920 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Jun 5 15:53:52 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2024 12:53:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Friends: On a related subject, I was researching the question: What color should my grounded PV conductor be? History: In the beginning, negative leads were always black. When it became apparent that negative PV leads were indeed grounded, the requirement to have them white or grey became enforced per 200.6(A)(3). When transformerless inverters were implemented it was assumed the negative was floating, so white/grey was no longer acceptable. Then the NEC recognized that some leads were kind of grounded, not solidly, but through some components, either OCPD, resistors, sensor or a combination. A new term was created, functionally grounded. This grounding was most often done to implement ground fault detection and interruption, or GFDI. I always assumed that if PV equipment had GFDI it had to feature a grounded polarity, most often indirectly, or functionally. Grounded conductors need to be white or grey. Therefore we are back to needing grey/white, most often for the negative lead. I wanted to verify if the Sol-Arc PV inputs established a grounded lead. They have GFDI so I assumed it likely they did. In order to verify, I called Sol-Arc. Their tech support had no idea what I was talking about. They did not know the term functionally grounded and could not verify if their equipment established a ground connection, solid or otherwise, to either polarity. This distinction applies here because it may help determine what is causing the GFDI fault. I can’t tell you for sure if one side of the PV circuit is functionally grounded, but if it is, grounding it elsewhere will defeat the GFDI and may cause nuisance tripping. Does anyone know if Sol-Arc PV inputs have a functional ground bond? Side note: I called my local Greentech distributor, who sells plenty of Sol-Arc inverters and asked if they carried white PV wire. They said none of their customers are asking for white PV wire. I suspect they should be using white for negative leads. I can’t confirm that because Sol-Arc can’t tell me it the PV circuits are functionally grounded or not. Frustrating! Fortunately the manual for Outback charge controllers specifically says the negative lead is functionally grounded. So if you are installing Outback CCs you must use white or grey. PV-Cables sells white PV wire. Confusing? Yeah, a bit. But as my local roofing companies say: “Solar? It can’t be that complicated!” William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Wednesday, June 5, 2024 6:02 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding Can anybody clarify the following instruction from the manual? "GND the panel MOUNTS/FRAMES to any GND outside the circuit via 12AWG wire" Does this mean do not connect the array equipment grounding conductor to the grounding terminal in the inverter? Where would be the suggested place to connect the equipment grounding conductor, and why does it make a difference? It would still be electrically bonded to the grounding terminal in the inverter. I'm asking because I do, in fact, have an equipment grounding conductor from the array connected to the ground terminal in the inverter at a home. I am getting an F08 GFDI fault. The manual doesn't say anything about the DC side with respect to this error. It suggests it is an AC current leakage to ground. But Sol-Ark tech support suggested that I disconnect the PV to rule it out as a source of the fault. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Jun 5 16:20:52 2024 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2024 16:20:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding Message-ID: Arent you really working with an EGC though?This would make it bare or green insulated.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: William Miller via RE-wrenchesDate: Wed, Jun 5, 2024 4:08 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: William Miller;Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame groundingFriends: On a related subject, I was researching the question: What color should my grounded PV conductor be?   History: In the beginning, negative leads were always black.   When it became apparent that negative PV leads were indeed grounded, the requirement to have them white or grey became enforced per 200.6(A)(3). When transformerless inverters were implemented it was assumed the negative was floating, so white/grey was no longer acceptable. Then the NEC recognized that some leads were kind of grounded, not solidly, but through some components, either OCPD, resistors, sensor or a combination.  A new term was created,  functionally grounded.  This grounding was most often done to implement ground fault detection and interruption, or GFDI.  I always assumed that if PV equipment had GFDI it had to feature a grounded polarity, most often indirectly, or functionally. Grounded conductors need to be white or grey.  Therefore we are back to needing grey/white, most often for the negative lead.   I wanted to verify if the Sol-Arc PV inputs established a grounded lead.  They have GFDI so I assumed it likely they did.  In order to verify, I called Sol-Arc.  Their tech support had no idea what I was talking about.  They did not know the term functionally grounded and could not verify if their equipment established a ground connection, solid or otherwise, to either polarity. This distinction applies here because it may help determine what is causing the GFDI fault.  I can’t tell you for sure if one side of the PV circuit is functionally grounded, but if it is, grounding it elsewhere will defeat the GFDI and may cause nuisance tripping. Does anyone know if Sol-Arc PV inputs have a functional ground bond? Side note:  I called my local Greentech distributor, who sells plenty of Sol-Arc inverters and asked if they carried white PV wire.  They said none of their customers are asking for white PV wire.  I suspect they should be using white for negative leads.  I can’t confirm that because Sol-Arc can’t tell me it the PV circuits are functionally grounded or not.  Frustrating! Fortunately the manual for Outback charge controllers specifically says the negative lead is functionally grounded.  So if you are installing Outback CCs you must use white or grey.  PV-Cables sells white PV wire. Confusing?  Yeah, a bit.  But as my local roofing companies say:  “Solar?  It can’t be that complicated!” William Miller Miller Solar17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422805-438-5600www.millersolar.comCA Lic. 773985  From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenchesSent: Wednesday, June 5, 2024 6:02 AMTo: RE-wrenchesCc: Jason SzumlanskiSubject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding Can anybody clarify the following instruction from the manual? "GND the panel MOUNTS/FRAMES to any GND outside the circuit via 12AWG wire" Does this mean do not connect the array equipment grounding conductor to the grounding terminal in the inverter? Where would be the suggested place to connect the equipment grounding conductor, and why does it make a difference? It would still be electrically bonded to the grounding terminal in the inverter.  I'm asking because I do, in fact, have an equipment grounding conductor from the array connected to the ground terminal in the inverter at a home. I am getting an F08 GFDI fault. The manual doesn't say anything about the DC side with respect to this error. It suggests it is an AC current leakage to ground. But Sol-Ark tech support suggested that I disconnect the PV to rule it out as a source of the fault.   Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group  -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bryan at pv-cables.com Wed Jun 5 16:22:19 2024 From: bryan at pv-cables.com (Bryan Norkunas) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2024 20:22:19 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: White PV wire was something we used to sell often, but that demand has dropped off in the last 5 years or so and always wondered why. Thanks for sharing William Sunny Regards, [Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140] Bryan Norkunas PV-Cables Inc. 989 Milton Ave Ste 1D Ferndale CA 95536 (707) 923-3000 office www.pv-cables.com [cid:image002.jpg at 01DA17CF.578FC540] Please print only if necessary. NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by replying to this email, and destroy all copies of the original message. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of William Miller via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, June 5, 2024 12:53:52 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: William Miller Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding Friends: On a related subject, I was researching the question: What color should my grounded PV conductor be? History: In the beginning, negative leads were always black. When it became apparent that negative PV leads were indeed grounded, the requirement to have them white or grey became enforced per 200.6(A)(3). When transformerless inverters were implemented it was assumed the negative was floating, so white/grey was no longer acceptable. Then the NEC recognized that some leads were kind of grounded, not solidly, but through some components, either OCPD, resistors, sensor or a combination. A new term was created, functionally grounded. This grounding was most often done to implement ground fault detection and interruption, or GFDI. I always assumed that if PV equipment had GFDI it had to feature a grounded polarity, most often indirectly, or functionally. Grounded conductors need to be white or grey. Therefore we are back to needing grey/white, most often for the negative lead. I wanted to verify if the Sol-Arc PV inputs established a grounded lead. They have GFDI so I assumed it likely they did. In order to verify, I called Sol-Arc. Their tech support had no idea what I was talking about. They did not know the term functionally grounded and could not verify if their equipment established a ground connection, solid or otherwise, to either polarity. This distinction applies here because it may help determine what is causing the GFDI fault. I can’t tell you for sure if one side of the PV circuit is functionally grounded, but if it is, grounding it elsewhere will defeat the GFDI and may cause nuisance tripping. Does anyone know if Sol-Arc PV inputs have a functional ground bond? Side note: I called my local Greentech distributor, who sells plenty of Sol-Arc inverters and asked if they carried white PV wire. They said none of their customers are asking for white PV wire. I suspect they should be using white for negative leads. I can’t confirm that because Sol-Arc can’t tell me it the PV circuits are functionally grounded or not. Frustrating! Fortunately the manual for Outback charge controllers specifically says the negative lead is functionally grounded. So if you are installing Outback CCs you must use white or grey. PV-Cables sells white PV wire. Confusing? Yeah, a bit. But as my local roofing companies say: “Solar? It can’t be that complicated!” William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, June 5, 2024 6:02 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jason Szumlanski Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding Can anybody clarify the following instruction from the manual? "GND the panel MOUNTS/FRAMES to any GND outside the circuit via 12AWG wire" Does this mean do not connect the array equipment grounding conductor to the grounding terminal in the inverter? Where would be the suggested place to connect the equipment grounding conductor, and why does it make a difference? It would still be electrically bonded to the grounding terminal in the inverter. I'm asking because I do, in fact, have an equipment grounding conductor from the array connected to the ground terminal in the inverter at a home. I am getting an F08 GFDI fault. The manual doesn't say anything about the DC side with respect to this error. It suggests it is an AC current leakage to ground. But Sol-Ark tech support suggested that I disconnect the PV to rule it out as a source of the fault. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2BF9EA7093754B829E681FC31ADC48D8[26300658].png Type: image/png Size: 20475 bytes Desc: 2BF9EA7093754B829E681FC31ADC48D8[26300658].png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: F62801A471DC410C815725A0E910CFC7[26300659].jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1367 bytes Desc: F62801A471DC410C815725A0E910CFC7[26300659].jpg URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Wed Jun 5 16:33:55 2024 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2024 14:33:55 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2020 NEC® identification requirements in 690.31(B)(2) state that "Only solidly grounded PV system dc circuit conductors shall be marked in accordance with 200.6." (200.6 is Means of Identifying Grounded Conductors") If the circuit is nonsolidly grounded, then positive conductors can be identified with +, POSITIVE, or POS if color coding is not being used; if it is, they can be any color other than green white or gray. Nonsolidly grounded negative conductors can be identified with -, NEGATIVE, or NEG if color coding is not being used; if it is they can be any color other than green, white, gray, or red. Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org On Wed, Jun 5, 2024 at 2:08 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > > > On a related subject, I was researching the question: What color should my > grounded PV conductor be? > > > > History: > > > > In the beginning, negative leads were always black. > > > > When it became apparent that negative PV leads were indeed grounded, the > requirement to have them white or grey became enforced per 200.6(A)(3). > > > > When transformerless inverters were implemented it was assumed the > negative was floating, so white/grey was no longer acceptable. > > > > Then the NEC recognized that some leads were kind of grounded, not > solidly, but through some components, either OCPD, resistors, sensor or a > combination. A new term was created, functionally grounded. This > grounding was most often done to implement ground fault detection and > interruption, or GFDI. I always assumed that if PV equipment had GFDI it > had to feature a grounded polarity, most often indirectly, or functionally. > > > > Grounded conductors need to be white or grey. Therefore we are back to > needing grey/white, most often for the negative lead. > > > > I wanted to verify if the Sol-Arc PV inputs established a grounded lead. > They have GFDI so I assumed it likely they did. In order to verify, I > called Sol-Arc. Their tech support had no idea what I was talking about. > They did not know the term functionally grounded and could not verify if > their equipment established a ground connection, solid or otherwise, to > either polarity. > > > > This distinction applies here because it may help determine what is > causing the GFDI fault. I can’t tell you for sure if one side of the PV > circuit is functionally grounded, but if it is, grounding it elsewhere will > defeat the GFDI and may cause nuisance tripping. > > > > Does anyone know if Sol-Arc PV inputs have a functional ground bond? > > > > Side note: I called my local Greentech distributor, who sells plenty of > Sol-Arc inverters and asked if they carried white PV wire. They said none > of their customers are asking for white PV wire. I suspect they should be > using white for negative leads. I can’t confirm that because Sol-Arc can’t > tell me it the PV circuits are functionally grounded or not. Frustrating! > > > > Fortunately the manual for Outback charge controllers specifically says > the negative lead is functionally grounded. So if you are installing > Outback CCs you must use white or grey. PV-Cables sells white PV wire. > > > > Confusing? Yeah, a bit. But as my local roofing companies say: “Solar? > It can’t be that complicated!” > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 5, 2024 6:02 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding > > > > Can anybody clarify the following instruction from the manual? > > > > "GND the panel MOUNTS/FRAMES to any GND outside the circuit via 12AWG wire" > > > > Does this mean do not connect the array equipment grounding conductor to > the grounding terminal in the inverter? Where would be the suggested place > to connect the equipment grounding conductor, and why does it make a > difference? It would still be electrically bonded to the grounding terminal > in the inverter. > > > > I'm asking because I do, in fact, have an equipment grounding conductor > from the array connected to the ground terminal in the inverter at a home. > I am getting an F08 GFDI fault. The manual doesn't say anything about the > DC side with respect to this error. It suggests it is an AC current leakage > to ground. But Sol-Ark tech support suggested that I disconnect the PV to > rule it out as a source of the fault. > > > > > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at vecoop.ca Wed Jun 5 16:42:57 2024 From: eric at vecoop.ca (Eric Smiley) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2024 13:42:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: SolArk arrays are ungrounded. However, because they are transformerless, when the inverter is operating, there is a reference to ground on the DC side via the AC side neutral bond to ground. So, a ground fault on the AC side will also cause a GF error. Many transformerless interactive inverters are using Isolation Resistance testing to detect ground fault, rather than measuring current. Sol-Ark doesn't have any literature to say what method of GF detection they use, but it is unlikely there is a reference to ground via the GF detection method. In any case, they aren't solidly grounded, and none of the DC conductors should be white or grey, they can both be hot with respect to ground. Eric Smiley (he/him) - Design Manager 250.703.6004 eric at vecoop.ca 888.386.0116 3-4997 Polkey Rd, Duncan BC, V9L 6W3 viridiansolar.ca Viridian Solar honours the ancestral grounds on which we live and provide services, recognising that these lands are unceded Indigenous territory. We are steadfast in our commitment to reconciliation and acknowledge the rich history and traditions that characterise this land that we all consider home. On Wed, 5 Jun 2024 at 13:07, William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > > > On a related subject, I was researching the question: What color should my > grounded PV conductor be? > > > > History: > > > > In the beginning, negative leads were always black. > > > > When it became apparent that negative PV leads were indeed grounded, the > requirement to have them white or grey became enforced per 200.6(A)(3). > > > > When transformerless inverters were implemented it was assumed the > negative was floating, so white/grey was no longer acceptable. > > > > Then the NEC recognized that some leads were kind of grounded, not > solidly, but through some components, either OCPD, resistors, sensor or a > combination. A new term was created, functionally grounded. This > grounding was most often done to implement ground fault detection and > interruption, or GFDI. I always assumed that if PV equipment had GFDI it > had to feature a grounded polarity, most often indirectly, or functionally. > > > > Grounded conductors need to be white or grey. Therefore we are back to > needing grey/white, most often for the negative lead. > > > > I wanted to verify if the Sol-Arc PV inputs established a grounded lead. > They have GFDI so I assumed it likely they did. In order to verify, I > called Sol-Arc. Their tech support had no idea what I was talking about. > They did not know the term functionally grounded and could not verify if > their equipment established a ground connection, solid or otherwise, to > either polarity. > > > > This distinction applies here because it may help determine what is > causing the GFDI fault. I can’t tell you for sure if one side of the PV > circuit is functionally grounded, but if it is, grounding it elsewhere will > defeat the GFDI and may cause nuisance tripping. > > > > Does anyone know if Sol-Arc PV inputs have a functional ground bond? > > > > Side note: I called my local Greentech distributor, who sells plenty of > Sol-Arc inverters and asked if they carried white PV wire. They said none > of their customers are asking for white PV wire. I suspect they should be > using white for negative leads. I can’t confirm that because Sol-Arc can’t > tell me it the PV circuits are functionally grounded or not. Frustrating! > > > > Fortunately the manual for Outback charge controllers specifically says > the negative lead is functionally grounded. So if you are installing > Outback CCs you must use white or grey. PV-Cables sells white PV wire. > > > > Confusing? Yeah, a bit. But as my local roofing companies say: “Solar? > It can’t be that complicated!” > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 5, 2024 6:02 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding > > > > Can anybody clarify the following instruction from the manual? > > > > "GND the panel MOUNTS/FRAMES to any GND outside the circuit via 12AWG wire" > > > > Does this mean do not connect the array equipment grounding conductor to > the grounding terminal in the inverter? Where would be the suggested place > to connect the equipment grounding conductor, and why does it make a > difference? It would still be electrically bonded to the grounding terminal > in the inverter. > > > > I'm asking because I do, in fact, have an equipment grounding conductor > from the array connected to the ground terminal in the inverter at a home. > I am getting an F08 GFDI fault. The manual doesn't say anything about the > DC side with respect to this error. It suggests it is an AC current leakage > to ground. But Sol-Ark tech support suggested that I disconnect the PV to > rule it out as a source of the fault. > > > > > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Wed Jun 5 16:55:18 2024 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2024 13:55:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: in their installation manuals, SolArk indicates black and red colors for PV conductors. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu Jun 6 09:13:38 2024 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2024 09:13:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The reason for less white PV wire I believe is due to less UV resistance capability.  Time showed that it was inferior to black.  Using black in lieu of white, and color coding at the terminal connections is an allowed practice and that is why less white PV wire is used I believe.  Chris On 6/5/2024 4:22 PM, Bryan Norkunas via RE-wrenches wrote: > > White PV wire was something we used to sell often, but that demand has > dropped off in the last 5 years or so and always wondered why. > > Thanks for sharing William > > Sunny Regards, > > Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140 > > ** > > *Bryan Norkunas * > > *PV-Cables Inc. * > > *989 Milton Ave Ste 1D* > > *Ferndale CA 95536*** > > (707) 923-3000 office > > www.pv-cables.com > > Please print only if necessary. > > NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of > the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or > privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or > distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, > please contact the sender by replying to this email, and destroy all > copies of the original message. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on > behalf of William Miller via RE-wrenches > > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 5, 2024 12:53:52 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* William Miller > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding > > Friends: > > On a related subject, I was researching the question: What color > should my grounded PV conductor be? > > History: > > In the beginning, negative leads were always black. > > When it became apparent that negative PV leads were indeed grounded, > the requirement to have them white or grey became enforced per > 200.6(A)(3). > > When transformerless inverters were implemented it was assumed the > negative was floating, so white/grey was no longer acceptable. > > Then the NEC recognized that some leads were kind of grounded, not > solidly, but through some components, either OCPD, resistors, sensor > or a combination.  A new term was created,  functionally grounded.  > This grounding was most often done to implement ground fault detection > and interruption, or GFDI.  I always assumed that if PV equipment had > GFDI it had to feature a grounded polarity, most often indirectly, or > functionally. > > Grounded conductors need to be white or grey.  Therefore we are back > to needing grey/white, most often for the negative lead. > > I wanted to verify if the Sol-Arc PV inputs established a grounded > lead.  They have GFDI so I assumed it likely they did.  In order to > verify, I called Sol-Arc.  Their tech support had no idea what I was > talking about.  They did not know the term functionally grounded and > could not verify if their equipment established a ground connection, > solid or otherwise, to either polarity. > > This distinction applies here because it may help determine what is > causing the GFDI fault.  I can’t tell you for sure if one side of the > PV circuit is functionally grounded, but if it is, grounding it > elsewhere will defeat the GFDI and may cause nuisance tripping. > > Does anyone know if Sol-Arc PV inputs have a functional ground bond? > > Side note:  I called my local Greentech distributor, who sells plenty > of Sol-Arc inverters and asked if they carried white PV wire.  They > said none of their customers are asking for white PV wire.  I suspect > they should be using white for negative leads.  I can’t confirm that > because Sol-Arc can’t tell me it the PV circuits are functionally > grounded or not.  Frustrating! > > Fortunately the manual for Outback charge controllers specifically > says the negative lead is functionally grounded.  So if you are > installing Outback CCs you must use white or grey.  PV-Cables sells > white PV wire. > > Confusing? Yeah, a bit.  But as my local roofing companies say: > “Solar?  It can’t be that complicated!” > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 5, 2024 6:02 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding > > Can anybody clarify the following instruction from the manual? > > "GND the panel MOUNTS/FRAMES to any GND outside the circuit via 12AWG > wire" > > Does this mean do not connect the array equipment grounding conductor > to the grounding terminal in the inverter? Where would be the > suggested place to connect the equipment grounding conductor, and why > does it make a difference? It would still be electrically bonded to > the grounding terminal in the inverter. > > I'm asking because I do, in fact, have an equipment grounding > conductor from the array connected to the ground terminal in the > inverter at a home. I am getting an F08 GFDI fault. The manual doesn't > say anything about the DC side with respect to this error. It suggests > it is an AC current leakage to ground. But Sol-Ark tech support > suggested that I disconnect the PV to rule it out as a source of the > fault. > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel           ENTECH Engineering Inc.    PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                   401-477-5773 EE Logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2BF9EA7093754B829E681FC31ADC48D8[26300658].png Type: image/png Size: 20475 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: F62801A471DC410C815725A0E910CFC7[26300659].jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1367 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/vcard Size: 203 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Jun 7 15:49:57 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2024 15:49:57 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Kit Solar Message-ID: I am getting more and more requests these days for very small PV systems to run minor AC loads. I recently cobbled together a kit for a security system on a tiki hut. It ended up being more expensive than I wanted it to be and overkill for the application. I just had a local government contact me with a request for several ultra small systems, and I was hoping to find an off-the-shelf kit that is plug and play. I don't have time to cobble together a bunch of small systems. It's easy to find DC kits for things like vehicle gates and lighting, but I can't find anything for small AC loads. In this particular case, all they need to operate is an Intermatic mechanical timer and a small controller with latching solenoids. I imagine something like a 100W solar panel with a small battery and 100W inverter would do the trick. Does anyone know of a source of small off-the-shelf kits like this? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Sat Jun 8 06:31:48 2024 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2024 06:31:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Kit Solar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001b01dab98f$122c5c90$368515b0$@mindspring.com> Jason Saw your post and wanted to share an idea or two. We did a small system like this for a client a month ago. 3 100 watt panels through a combiner box to a “solar generator “ like device called a Jackery. 2000 watts, little bigger and heavier than a boom box. There are several companies products to look at. There was a great article in Clean energy on this trend a month or two ago. Very popular in Europe, slowly growing here. Balcony solar is what I call it. Simple and easy. Thx Peter Giroux American Solar From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, June 7, 2024 3:50 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jason Szumlanski Subject: [RE-wrenches] Kit Solar I am getting more and more requests these days for very small PV systems to run minor AC loads. I recently cobbled together a kit for a security system on a tiki hut. It ended up being more expensive than I wanted it to be and overkill for the application. I just had a local government contact me with a request for several ultra small systems, and I was hoping to find an off-the-shelf kit that is plug and play. I don't have time to cobble together a bunch of small systems. It's easy to find DC kits for things like vehicle gates and lighting, but I can't find anything for small AC loads. In this particular case, all they need to operate is an Intermatic mechanical timer and a small controller with latching solenoids. I imagine something like a 100W solar panel with a small battery and 100W inverter would do the trick. Does anyone know of a source of small off-the-shelf kits like this? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stuartkriendler at gmail.com Sat Jun 8 07:15:49 2024 From: stuartkriendler at gmail.com (Stuart Kriendler) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2024 08:15:49 -0300 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Kit Solar (Jason Szumlanski) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: These type of kits seem to be popping up all over, not sure the quality and would always look for LiFe over NMC if possible. I saw a GroWatt version ~2 years ago which looked/felt pretty decent and worked well, at the time... Below is a link for one that may fit the specs mentioned, there are likely dozens more. I always feel being able to integrate a classic framed module is the way forward, not sure of the longevity of all these fold up versions with typically a higher cost/Watt. Reckon a Al framed module, Midnite Brat and Morningstar 300W inverter would be a standard of quality far higher than any kit online. Then you need a battery of choice, and ideally a good intern to wire it all up - with a torque screwdriver/wrench to be sure connections are solid, wouldn't that be nice. ;+) Maybe Sunwize can sort something out for multiple orders: https://www.sunwize.com/ Happy hunting. https://www.amazon.com/Generator-Portable-Foldable-Generators-Emergencies/dp/B0CW574NP2/ref=asc_df_B0CW574NP2/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=693458464558&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=10067486894369668693&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9030795&hvtargid=pla-2296973548758&psc=1&mcid=1ee0721d3f89381c90c6dfc808525b30&gad_source=1 Sunniest regards, Stuart Empower (Bermuda) 441 599 2105 On Fri, 7 Jun 2024, 17:08 , wrote: > Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." > > > When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the > Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines > from the quoted message. > > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Kit Solar (Jason Szumlanski) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2024 15:49:57 -0400 > From: Jason Szumlanski > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Kit Solar > Message-ID: > < > CAE438R-Mv8WS4XW+5C7ezF++BdEQhZFwiAKiyC367JW4UE0TvQ at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > I am getting more and more requests these days for very small PV systems to > run minor AC loads. I recently cobbled together a kit for a security system > on a tiki hut. It ended up being more expensive than I wanted it to be and > overkill for the application. > > I just had a local government contact me with a request for several ultra > small systems, and I was hoping to find an off-the-shelf kit that is plug > and play. I don't have time to cobble together a bunch of small systems. > It's easy to find DC kits for things like vehicle gates and lighting, but I > can't find anything for small AC loads. > > In this particular case, all they need to operate is an Intermatic > mechanical timer and a small controller with latching solenoids. I imagine > something like a 100W solar panel with a small battery and 100W inverter > would do the trick. > > Does anyone know of a source of small off-the-shelf kits like this? > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20240607/8905b507/attachment-0001.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > ------------------------------ > > End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 17, Issue 167 > ******************************************** > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Sat Jun 8 11:06:27 2024 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2024 08:06:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Kit Solar In-Reply-To: <001b01dab98f$122c5c90$368515b0$@mindspring.com> References: <001b01dab98f$122c5c90$368515b0$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: An excellent idea and one that is catching on for DIY also. There is a potential issue using those at below freezing temps, as with all Li batteries they should not be charged at below freezing temps. You'd want to look for one with heated batteries. There are more and more brands of these power boxes available, but I'm not sure how many, if any, have heated batteries. I'd hope that the heater would be powered only from a charging source, but you'd probably have to ask the manufacturer. I think it's also better to find and use those with LiFePO batteries for safety. For industrial use it would be great to find something with the more expensive LiTO batteries which are ok with lower temps, but I don't think there are any battery banks with these, much less power boxes. Brad Bassett On Sat, Jun 8, 2024 at 3:34 AM Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jason > > > > Saw your post and wanted to share an idea or two. We did a small system > like this for a client a month ago. 3 100 watt panels through a combiner > box to a “solar generator “ like device called a Jackery. 2000 watts, > little bigger and heavier than a boom box. > > > > There are several companies products to look at. There was a great > article in Clean energy on this trend a month or two ago. Very popular in > Europe, slowly growing here. Balcony solar is what I call it. Simple and > easy. > > > > Thx > > Peter Giroux > > American Solar > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Friday, June 7, 2024 3:50 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Kit Solar > > > > I am getting more and more requests these days for very small PV systems > to run minor AC loads. I recently cobbled together a kit for a > security system on a tiki hut. It ended up being more expensive than I > wanted it to be and overkill for the application. > > > > I just had a local government contact me with a request for several ultra > small systems, and I was hoping to find an off-the-shelf kit that is plug > and play. I don't have time to cobble together a bunch of small systems. > It's easy to find DC kits for things like vehicle gates and lighting, but I > can't find anything for small AC loads. > > > > In this particular case, all they need to operate is an Intermatic > mechanical timer and a small controller with latching solenoids. I imagine > something like a 100W solar panel with a small battery and 100W inverter > would do the trick. > > > > Does anyone know of a source of small off-the-shelf kits like this? > > > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Jun 9 08:43:55 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2024 08:43:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Kit Solar In-Reply-To: References: <001b01dab98f$122c5c90$368515b0$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: I should have mentioned, I am looking for a NEMA 3R solution. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sat, Jun 8, 2024 at 11:08 AM Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > An excellent idea and one that is catching on for DIY also. There is a > potential issue using those at below freezing temps, as with all Li > batteries they should not be charged at below freezing temps. You'd want to > look for one with heated batteries. There are more and more brands of these > power boxes available, but I'm not sure how many, if any, have heated > batteries. I'd hope that the heater would be powered only from a charging > source, but you'd probably have to ask the manufacturer. I think it's also > better to find and use those with LiFePO batteries for safety. For > industrial use it would be great to find something with the more expensive > LiTO batteries which are ok with lower temps, but I don't think there are > any battery banks with these, much less power boxes. > > Brad Bassett > > On Sat, Jun 8, 2024 at 3:34 AM Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Jason >> >> >> >> Saw your post and wanted to share an idea or two. We did a small system >> like this for a client a month ago. 3 100 watt panels through a combiner >> box to a “solar generator “ like device called a Jackery. 2000 watts, >> little bigger and heavier than a boom box. >> >> >> >> There are several companies products to look at. There was a great >> article in Clean energy on this trend a month or two ago. Very popular in >> Europe, slowly growing here. Balcony solar is what I call it. Simple and >> easy. >> >> >> >> Thx >> >> Peter Giroux >> >> American Solar >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Friday, June 7, 2024 3:50 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Kit Solar >> >> >> >> I am getting more and more requests these days for very small PV systems >> to run minor AC loads. I recently cobbled together a kit for a >> security system on a tiki hut. It ended up being more expensive than I >> wanted it to be and overkill for the application. >> >> >> >> I just had a local government contact me with a request for several ultra >> small systems, and I was hoping to find an off-the-shelf kit that is plug >> and play. I don't have time to cobble together a bunch of small systems. >> It's easy to find DC kits for things like vehicle gates and lighting, but I >> can't find anything for small AC loads. >> >> >> >> In this particular case, all they need to operate is an Intermatic >> mechanical timer and a small controller with latching solenoids. I imagine >> something like a 100W solar panel with a small battery and 100W inverter >> would do the trick. >> >> >> >> Does anyone know of a source of small off-the-shelf kits like this? >> >> >> >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Sun Jun 9 18:49:36 2024 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2024 17:49:36 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Two Outback Radian 8048 fails in same week..what is likely wrong in 7+ year inverters? Message-ID: <0b8101dababf$4e392a20$eaab7e60$@solarcentex.com> Longtime Outback user but since the experience of this group is so varied, I'll say 8-years (so you real old-timers don't laugh!). Here is the scenario of two systems: First is a full off-grid customer and we have two stacked 8048s, with four FM80s and a 14kw array that charges a RE2200. After a home fire (not related to the solar!) we got the system back on and it required heavy dual inverter operations to get the home going after a four-month hiatus. Looks like that slave inverter stopped working at end of the day after we re-powered and departed. He can operate with the single 8048. The second situation is a used 8048 I have at the Texas coast that powers a small duck/hunt bunkhouse. It was used system (and I'm a benefitting member) but worked just fine when I put in. Went down to check the batteries (FLA, as AGM nor lithium was in budget) and there was not inverter output and no indication on the MATE like an error code. So my question is - what typically fails in a 8048 from old age or heat stress? Wanted to ask here since so many issues with Outback tech spt during its transition. Neither inverter is in warranty, but trying to field repair anything I might be able to. I do have battery voltage past the two 175A disconnects in the GSLC. No "thump" I typically get when the inverter first gets battery power and no lights. Any troubleshooting tips to identify the culprit part? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 136365 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sun Jun 9 19:09:31 2024 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2024 19:09:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius 489 Error Code Message-ID: <655b5d95c448409b94debfc62ac3efc6@redwoodalliance.org> A client has a Fronius Primo 10.0-1 that is showing a 489 Error code, which says - permanent capacitor over voltage - call tech support. The inverter doesn't work. His original inverter had failed, he did the tests and they sent him a replacement. Fronius told him he needed to get a Fronius Partner out to do some tests. The nearest one is a couple hundred miles away. He is technically savvy and can do the tests himself. What is going on with Fronius? How can we get through their hoops to get them to send him another inverter. Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional -- From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Jun 9 20:11:34 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2024 18:11:34 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Two Outback Radian 8048 fails in same week..what is likely wrong in 7+ year inverters? In-Reply-To: <0b8101dababf$4e392a20$eaab7e60$@solarcentex.com> References: <0b8101dababf$4e392a20$eaab7e60$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: <4C92E737-2601-4810-B2DC-632233B2A43B@gmail.com> Call Zonna energy. It’s most likely 1 of the control boards. And probably not the power modules. Not all that uncommon especially for the non A versions. Jay > On Jun 9, 2024, at 4:50 PM, Scot Arey via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Longtime Outback user but since the experience of this group is so varied, I’ll say 8-years (so you real old-timers don’t laugh!). > > Here is the scenario of two systems: > > First is a full off-grid customer and we have two stacked 8048s, with four FM80s and a 14kw array that charges a RE2200. After a home fire (not related to the solar!) we got the system back on and it required heavy dual inverter operations to get the home going after a four-month hiatus. Looks like that slave inverter stopped working at end of the day after we re-powered and departed. He can operate with the single 8048. > > The second situation is a used 8048 I have at the Texas coast that powers a small duck/hunt bunkhouse. It was used system (and I’m a benefitting member) but worked just fine when I put in. Went down to check the batteries (FLA, as AGM nor lithium was in budget) and there was not inverter output and no indication on the MATE like an error code. > > So my question is – what typically fails in a 8048 from old age or heat stress? Wanted to ask here since so many issues with Outback tech spt during its transition. Neither inverter is in warranty, but trying to field repair anything I might be able to. > > I do have battery voltage past the two 175A disconnects in the GSLC. No “thump” I typically get when the inverter first gets battery power and no lights. > > Any troubleshooting tips to identify the culprit part? > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sun Jun 9 22:30:36 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2024 19:30:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Two Outback Radian 8048 fails in same week..what is likely wrong in 7+ year inverters? In-Reply-To: <0b8101dababf$4e392a20$eaab7e60$@solarcentex.com> References: <0b8101dababf$4e392a20$eaab7e60$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: Scott: My most recent Radian failure was a power module. You can isolate these easily with the settings. Outback sent me a bad replacement module twice so be cautious about your conclusions after a replacement. Is your firmware up to date on all gear? Have you done a reset to factory defaults on all gear? I have also had control boards fail but not recently. I had one system that was acting wonky and the solution was to swap which unit was primary. Don’t know why this mattered but it fixed the problem. Have you tried thumping each unit on the side with the heal of your palm? I’m half serious: the transfer relays can stick. More accurately: gently tap the relays. There is an error code for a stuck transfer relay so you should know if that is the problem. Hope this helps. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Sun, Jun 9, 2024 at 3:50 PM Scot Arey via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Longtime Outback user but since the experience of this group is so varied, > I’ll say 8-years (so you real old-timers don’t laugh!). > > > > Here is the scenario of two systems: > > > > First is a full off-grid customer and we have two stacked 8048s, with four > FM80s and a 14kw array that charges a RE2200. After a home fire (not > related to the solar!) we got the system back on and it required heavy dual > inverter operations to get the home going after a four-month hiatus. Looks > like that slave inverter stopped working at end of the day after we > re-powered and departed. He can operate with the single 8048. > > The second situation is a used 8048 I have at the Texas coast that powers > a small duck/hunt bunkhouse. It was used system (and I’m a benefitting > member) but worked just fine when I put in. Went down to check the > batteries (FLA, as AGM nor lithium was in budget) and there was not > inverter output and no indication on the MATE like an error code. > > S*o my question is – what typically fails in a 8048 from old age or heat > stress?* Wanted to ask here since so many issues with Outback tech spt > during its transition. Neither inverter is in warranty, but trying to field > repair anything I might be able to. > > I do have battery voltage past the two 175A disconnects in the GSLC. No > “thump” I typically get when the inverter first gets battery power and no > lights. > > Any troubleshooting tips to identify the culprit part? > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 136365 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Jun 10 01:15:02 2024 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2024 22:15:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Two Outback Radian 8048 fails in same week..what is likely wrong in 7+ year inverters? In-Reply-To: <0b8101dababf$4e392a20$eaab7e60$@solarcentex.com> References: <0b8101dababf$4e392a20$eaab7e60$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: I have seen more power supply board stacks fail than inverters and of the power supply stack it has been the top board more than others. Funtimes On Sun, Jun 9, 2024, 3:50 PM Scot Arey via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Longtime Outback user but since the experience of this group is so varied, > I’ll say 8-years (so you real old-timers don’t laugh!). > > > > Here is the scenario of two systems: > > > > First is a full off-grid customer and we have two stacked 8048s, with four > FM80s and a 14kw array that charges a RE2200. After a home fire (not > related to the solar!) we got the system back on and it required heavy dual > inverter operations to get the home going after a four-month hiatus. Looks > like that slave inverter stopped working at end of the day after we > re-powered and departed. He can operate with the single 8048. > > The second situation is a used 8048 I have at the Texas coast that powers > a small duck/hunt bunkhouse. It was used system (and I’m a benefitting > member) but worked just fine when I put in. Went down to check the > batteries (FLA, as AGM nor lithium was in budget) and there was not > inverter output and no indication on the MATE like an error code. > > S*o my question is – what typically fails in a 8048 from old age or heat > stress?* Wanted to ask here since so many issues with Outback tech spt > during its transition. Neither inverter is in warranty, but trying to field > repair anything I might be able to. > > I do have battery voltage past the two 175A disconnects in the GSLC. No > “thump” I typically get when the inverter first gets battery power and no > lights. > > Any troubleshooting tips to identify the culprit part? > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 136365 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 136365 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com Mon Jun 10 09:38:59 2024 From: jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com (Jeremy Coxon) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2024 09:38:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Two Outback Radian 8048 fails in same week..what is likely wrong in 7+ year inverters? Message-ID: <1F5292AA-1D83-433F-A810-BBAF3F84BF63@sunwindpowerinc.com> I have 3 very lightly used Radian 8048’s on a shelf (they were in standby mode only for ~3yrs) that I’d love to find a home for if anyone has a use for them or the parts. Best Regards, Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 MWBE Certified  -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2022 Logo Blue Tagline 2x no phone - small.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 23571 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Seal.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 18157 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Mon Jun 10 11:26:46 2024 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2024 11:26:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radians Message-ID: <5ec060aad73dafca741c9dcb6804f450@redwoodalliance.org> What vintage are you Radians? How much do you want for them? Do they use the Mate 3 or the 3s? Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional -- From iesbatteries at gmail.com Mon Jun 10 12:50:46 2024 From: iesbatteries at gmail.com (Daryl DeJoy) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2024 12:50:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] REC Twin Peak 315 watt? Message-ID: If anyone has one of these laying around I'd be happy to buy it. It can be used. It's for a client who dropped a tree a little too close to his array.... Please contact me off list, thanks 🙏🏻 Daryl DeJoy NABCEP Certified PVIP since 2006 Island Energy Storage (207)479-2252 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Jun 10 17:58:40 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2024 14:58:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Two Outback Radian 8048 fails in same week..what is likely wrong in 7+ year inverters? In-Reply-To: <0b8101dababf$4e392a20$eaab7e60$@solarcentex.com> References: <0b8101dababf$4e392a20$eaab7e60$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: <5a782063a3981e994cc3583b8ec382bf@sti.net> High temperatures are a major cause of electronic equipment failures, contributing to more than 50% of them. A rule of thumb is that for every 10°C increase in temperature, the failure rate of electronic components will double and their life will be reduced by half. This rule is based on the Arrhenius equation, which can be used to compare damage that accumulates over time at different temperatures. In troubleshooting a very rare failure in XW that sounds like yours, look for little black chunks of Mosfet chips in the power section. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-06-09 3:49 pm, Scot Arey via RE-wrenches wrote: > Longtime Outback user but since the experience of this group is so > varied, I'll say 8-years (so you real old-timers don't laugh!). > > Here is the scenario of two systems: > > First is a full off-grid customer and we have two stacked 8048s, with > four FM80s and a 14kw array that charges a RE2200. After a home fire > (not related to the solar!) we got the system back on and it required > heavy dual inverter operations to get the home going after a four-month > hiatus. Looks like that slave inverter stopped working at end of the > day after we re-powered and departed. He can operate with the single > 8048. > > The second situation is a used 8048 I have at the Texas coast that > powers a small duck/hunt bunkhouse. It was used system (and I'm a > benefitting member) but worked just fine when I put in. Went down to > check the batteries (FLA, as AGM nor lithium was in budget) and there > was not inverter output and no indication on the MATE like an error > code. > > So my question is - what typically fails in a 8048 from old age or heat > stress? Wanted to ask here since so many issues with Outback tech spt > during its transition. Neither inverter is in warranty, but trying to > field repair anything I might be able to. > > I do have battery voltage past the two 175A disconnects in the GSLC. No > "thump" I typically get when the inverter first gets battery power and > no lights. > > Any troubleshooting tips to identify the culprit part? > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Mon Jun 10 18:42:33 2024 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2024 22:42:33 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Two Outback Radian 8048 fails in same week..what is likely wrong in 7+ year inverters? In-Reply-To: <5a782063a3981e994cc3583b8ec382bf@sti.net> References: <0b8101dababf$4e392a20$eaab7e60$@solarcentex.com> <5a782063a3981e994cc3583b8ec382bf@sti.net> Message-ID: I installed a Radian 4048 for a neighbor about a year ago. The Sw4024 was tired. Typ. - checked output all good volt & Hz, then about 2 weeks later He called said his washer would not spin & refrigerator had died (not happy) the Rad 4048 was only at 99 volts/leg. OB Tech told me how to dial up & it would not stick at 119-120vac. Replaced the power supply all good for a year now. _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Two Outback Radian 8048 fails in same week..what is likely wrong in 7+ year inverters? Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2024 21:58:40 +0000 Size: 22217 URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jun 11 11:23:47 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2024 11:23:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] HomeGrid Battery Experience In-Reply-To: <002401d96fae$a6d611a0$f48234e0$@solarwork.com> References: <002401d96fae$a6d611a0$f48234e0$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Hi Dana, All, Is there any updated feedback on Outback Radian integration with HomeGrid? I understand it is open loop only. How is this pairing working? I have a client with three GS8048 inverters who is looking for a battery upgrade. He has a neighbor who has new-in-box Homegrid batteries that they decided not to use, so he can get them for cheap. I am debating whether to allow the Outback pairing or if I should change them out for dual Sol-Ark 15K. Thanks, Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 11:27 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I installed a 400AHR set of Home Grid on an existing grid OB Radian system > replacing AGM batteries. I had to replace the FM 80 CC for an Fm 100 as > the FM 80s were to sloppy on their finish voltage [the microprocessors are > too slow]. I received 2 damaged [warped] Top sections with the BMS before I > could complete the installation. The shipping boxes were stout & fine so I > can only assume that the defect was factory based. HG sated that they open > & check every battery box as it come in from China… Hopefully now they will > check the BMS units too. > > > > Since completion though the system has been working smoothly as in no > issues. Grounding straps on the left side secured the battery set together > on the left, but the right side relies on gravity to keep the individual > batteries nested which is interesting as the right side is where the > battery interconnects are located. I would like to see a set of straps typ. > Of the left side on the right side to tie the pack tight, literally someone > could lift the right side up under load & cause a lead separation & major > sparky event. No conduit box on the back just a couple of compression TA’s > to secure the battery cable out to the inverter. > > > > Communication with Home Grid was very good & they sent me a com box to > allow them to look in on the battery bank though with no internet on site > that was a miss. Oh yeah the assumptions at the factory level. > > > > **Last item - they charge to a lower voltage setting than almost all other > LI batteries so check as to whether your CC can stop that low. I think it > was 52.4vdc? > > > > That said I am sure that I will install more sets of Home Grid batteries. > Neat clean look finished. > > > > > > *Dana Orzel - E - dana at solarwork.com - C - 208.721.* > *7003* > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Saturday, April 15, 2023 8:49 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Kienan Maxfield > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] HomeGrid Battery Experience > > > > Howie, > > > > I don't have experience with HomeGrid, but I have a well respected friend > (Jason Lerner) who loves them. > > > > I have had awesome experiences with Fortress, and I have been looking for > a chance to try HomeGrid as well. I think the stack idea is really cool!! > > > > I know that this is extremely nit-picky... The only thing I've seen so far > that I don't like about HomeGrid is that they use 15 cells in series > instead of the standard 16 cells. This just means that the voltages will be > lower than what I'm used to, and amperage will be a little higher. It's not > a big deal, everything will still work great, but I like the higher voltage > of a 16 cell bank. I just have all the numbers memorized for a 16 cell > battery bank, and while you should always double check the manufacturer's > instructions, it's nice to know off the top of your head if the numbers are > appoximately correct. > > > > When Fortress released their new inverterter that's essentially the same > as the Solark (comes from the same factory), Solark got mad and they pushed > out a new non-voluntary firmware update that broke the Modbus communication > with Fortress. People didn't even know that the Firmware had changed. All > they knew is that suddenly, their system wasn't working and it was shutting > down randomly. It worked one day, didn't work the next. Fortress made a > new firmware to communicate with Solark via canbus instead, so everything > is working great again now. I don't know if Solark is finished with their > vendeta against Fortress, but if Solark figures out a way to cause trouble > again, then anyone with a Fortress-Solark combo could experience a coms > disruption again... I really don't believe this was an accident on Solark's > part. So, I guess what I'm trying to say is that Solark isn't mad at > HomeGrid right now, so that might be a better bet. I personally don't use > Solark. I'm leary of a company who pushes out Firmware updates that break > things. > > > > One question, does HomeGrid officially support combining new batteries > with old batteries? Fortress does not, they say in their documentation that > you shouldn't mix different ages of batteries together. I could be wrong, > but my understanding is that it should actually be fine, but the SOC will > be different on the different ages of batteries... particularly when the > batteries are between 30% and 80%. They'll be more tight with eachother > near the top and the bottom of their ranges, but they'll drift in the > middle. So I think it's fine to mix them like that, but I'm wondering if > HomeGrid specifically says it's okay or if they specifically say not to do > it? > > > > Thanks, > > Kienan > > > > *Green-Go Solar Distribution LLC* > > *Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and consulting company)* > > *maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com * > > *(801) 631-5584(Cell)* > > *distribution.solar* > ------------------------------ > > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Friday, April 14, 2023 3:03 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Howie Michaelson > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] HomeGrid Battery Experience > > > > Hi All, > > I am looking to upgrade an offgrid client's battery bank from 2-volt Rolls > KS17s to LiFePO4 batteries. I'm basically looking at one Fortress eVault > Max cabinet vs. a HomeGrid 4 stack option. I have used the eVault Maxs > before, and generally like them. The 2 options are relatively equivalent > cost and size. The advantage of the eVault is that I've used them with > good success several times, and they have a better listed warranty (6,000 > cycles vs. 4,000, slightly more favorable end of life capacity retention). > The reason I am considering the HomeGrid is because the promise of more > incremental increases if that becomes a need (4.8 kWh blocks vs. 18.5 kWh) > and the promised ease of adding up to another 4 blocks with apparently > little or no effort compared to the need for a whole other large battery > connection. These will be matched up to an existing Sol-Ark 12k inverter. > If anyone has any experience with the HomeGrid (positive or negative), or > experience with both brands, I'd love to hear any feedback. I hate > installing equipment I haven't used before! 😕 > > Thanks, > > Howie > > > *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* > > *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* > > *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service**802-272-0004* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue Jun 11 11:39:29 2024 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2024 09:39:29 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] HomeGrid Battery Experience In-Reply-To: References: <002401d96fae$a6d611a0$f48234e0$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Hi Jason, This pairing should work fine. There is an open loop setting for the Homegrid and the flexnet can work pretty well keeping track of SOC. I'd stick with the Outback at least initially. The 15 cell Homegrid is lower voltage so it can work with older equipment with 48V lbco limit easily. You can also connect the Home grid to WiFi directly and tweak it as needed. Let us know what you learn On Tue, Jun 11, 2024, 9:25 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Dana, All, > > Is there any updated feedback on Outback Radian integration with HomeGrid? > I understand it is open loop only. How is this pairing working? I have a > client with three GS8048 inverters who is looking for a battery upgrade. He > has a neighbor who has new-in-box Homegrid batteries that they decided not > to use, so he can get them for cheap. I am debating whether to allow the > Outback pairing or if I should change them out for dual Sol-Ark 15K. > > Thanks, > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 11:27 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I installed a 400AHR set of Home Grid on an existing grid OB Radian >> system replacing AGM batteries. I had to replace the FM 80 CC for an Fm >> 100 as the FM 80s were to sloppy on their finish voltage [the >> microprocessors are too slow]. I received 2 damaged [warped] Top sections >> with the BMS before I could complete the installation. The shipping boxes >> were stout & fine so I can only assume that the defect was factory based. >> HG sated that they open & check every battery box as it come in from China… >> Hopefully now they will check the BMS units too. >> >> >> >> Since completion though the system has been working smoothly as in no >> issues. Grounding straps on the left side secured the battery set together >> on the left, but the right side relies on gravity to keep the individual >> batteries nested which is interesting as the right side is where the >> battery interconnects are located. I would like to see a set of straps typ. >> Of the left side on the right side to tie the pack tight, literally someone >> could lift the right side up under load & cause a lead separation & major >> sparky event. No conduit box on the back just a couple of compression TA’s >> to secure the battery cable out to the inverter. >> >> >> >> Communication with Home Grid was very good & they sent me a com box to >> allow them to look in on the battery bank though with no internet on site >> that was a miss. Oh yeah the assumptions at the factory level. >> >> >> >> **Last item - they charge to a lower voltage setting than almost all >> other LI batteries so check as to whether your CC can stop that low. I >> think it was 52.4vdc? >> >> >> >> That said I am sure that I will install more sets of Home Grid batteries. >> Neat clean look finished. >> >> >> >> >> >> *Dana Orzel - E - dana at solarwork.com - C - >> 208.721.**7003* >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >> Behalf Of *Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Saturday, April 15, 2023 8:49 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* Kienan Maxfield >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] HomeGrid Battery Experience >> >> >> >> Howie, >> >> >> >> I don't have experience with HomeGrid, but I have a well respected friend >> (Jason Lerner) who loves them. >> >> >> >> I have had awesome experiences with Fortress, and I have been looking for >> a chance to try HomeGrid as well. I think the stack idea is really cool!! >> >> >> >> I know that this is extremely nit-picky... The only thing I've seen so >> far that I don't like about HomeGrid is that they use 15 cells in series >> instead of the standard 16 cells. This just means that the voltages will be >> lower than what I'm used to, and amperage will be a little higher. It's not >> a big deal, everything will still work great, but I like the higher voltage >> of a 16 cell bank. I just have all the numbers memorized for a 16 cell >> battery bank, and while you should always double check the manufacturer's >> instructions, it's nice to know off the top of your head if the numbers are >> appoximately correct. >> >> >> >> When Fortress released their new inverterter that's essentially the same >> as the Solark (comes from the same factory), Solark got mad and they pushed >> out a new non-voluntary firmware update that broke the Modbus communication >> with Fortress. People didn't even know that the Firmware had changed. >> All they knew is that suddenly, their system wasn't working and it was >> shutting down randomly. It worked one day, didn't work the next. Fortress >> made a new firmware to communicate with Solark via canbus instead, so >> everything is working great again now. I don't know if Solark is finished >> with their vendeta against Fortress, but if Solark figures out a way to >> cause trouble again, then anyone with a Fortress-Solark combo could >> experience a coms disruption again... I really don't believe this was an >> accident on Solark's part. So, I guess what I'm trying to say is that >> Solark isn't mad at HomeGrid right now, so that might be a better bet. I >> personally don't use Solark. I'm leary of a company who pushes out Firmware >> updates that break things. >> >> >> >> One question, does HomeGrid officially support combining new batteries >> with old batteries? Fortress does not, they say in their documentation that >> you shouldn't mix different ages of batteries together. I could be wrong, >> but my understanding is that it should actually be fine, but the SOC will >> be different on the different ages of batteries... particularly when the >> batteries are between 30% and 80%. They'll be more tight with eachother >> near the top and the bottom of their ranges, but they'll drift in the >> middle. So I think it's fine to mix them like that, but I'm wondering if >> HomeGrid specifically says it's okay or if they specifically say not to do >> it? >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Kienan >> >> >> >> *Green-Go Solar Distribution LLC* >> >> *Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and consulting company)* >> >> *maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com * >> >> *(801) 631-5584(Cell)* >> >> *distribution.solar* >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches on >> behalf of Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >> *Sent:* Friday, April 14, 2023 3:03 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* Howie Michaelson >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] HomeGrid Battery Experience >> >> >> >> Hi All, >> >> I am looking to upgrade an offgrid client's battery bank from 2-volt >> Rolls KS17s to LiFePO4 batteries. I'm basically looking at one Fortress >> eVault Max cabinet vs. a HomeGrid 4 stack option. I have used the eVault >> Maxs before, and generally like them. The 2 options are relatively >> equivalent cost and size. The advantage of the eVault is that I've used >> them with good success several times, and they have a better listed >> warranty (6,000 cycles vs. 4,000, slightly more favorable end of life >> capacity retention). The reason I am considering the HomeGrid is because >> the promise of more incremental increases if that becomes a need (4.8 kWh >> blocks vs. 18.5 kWh) and the promised ease of adding up to another 4 blocks >> with apparently little or no effort compared to the need for a whole other >> large battery connection. These will be matched up to an existing Sol-Ark >> 12k inverter. If anyone has any experience with the HomeGrid (positive or >> negative), or experience with both brands, I'd love to hear any feedback. >> I hate installing equipment I haven't used before! 😕 >> >> Thanks, >> >> Howie >> >> >> *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* >> >> *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* >> >> *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service**802-272-0004* >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Tue Jun 11 18:49:17 2024 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2024 17:49:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using MultiConnect Cell modem to access Outback ReOptics at remote site Message-ID: <06eb01dabc51$97a81980$c6f84c80$@solarcentex.com> I'm assuming several of you do this all the time. I have a used MultiConnect Cell modem in the shop but it has a USB output so I plan on using a USB to ethernet adapter and then plug into the Mate. While I don't see anything in the manual that says that is a PoE port, the pics in the Mate manual certainly make it seem so. Then I'll put new SIM card with plan in the slot. The question is: "Is it this easy or is there any sort of driver necessary to interface with the Outback Mate?" I'll just search for the MAC address as a I set up the ReOptics profile as if a typical networked connection. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 136365 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu Jun 13 09:53:06 2024 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2024 09:53:06 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Failed Enphase End Cap In-Reply-To: <5ec060aad73dafca741c9dcb6804f450@redwoodalliance.org> References: <5ec060aad73dafca741c9dcb6804f450@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <69d66e89-29be-4c2f-8014-6adff97f4af3@entech-engineering.com> I don't know if of interest, but we had 2 subarrays, with one having a hard bolted fault it appeared. It occurred around the same time the customer's meter enclosure fell apart. The second subarray continued to operate as expected after meter enclosure replaced.  Did all trouble shooting I could think of from the ground and the conclusion was it was on the roof. This was found before we removed any modules. Shorted through the cap (lower hole in cap).  The system operated very well for four years. Chris       🙁 -- Christopher Warfel           ENTECH Engineering Inc.    PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                   401-477-5773 EE Logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Failed Enphase End Cap.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 713387 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/vcard Size: 203 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jun 13 11:01:28 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2024 11:01:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 HOT! Message-ID: I'm looking at an off-grid quad inverter setup for a client, not my installation. One of the stacked.inverters is extremely hot, sometimes it goes into F66 and takes down the adjacent inverters with it to F66 probably because of these Xanbus network is broken. I disabled charging and discharging on the inverter that is getting hot, but it's still remains very hot. Any ideas? I tried to put that one inverter in standby, but the generator will not sync with the remaining three and charge the batteries. So I have to leave it in normal operating mode for the moment. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Jun 13 11:26:24 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2024 08:26:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 HOT! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8f88b0175777213a90c5b0a638c46007@sti.net> Disco 250A breaker on bad XW and remove its xanbus RJ45. Assume the bad one is not the master? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-06-13 8:01 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > I'm looking at an off-grid quad inverter setup for a client, not my > installation. One of the stacked.inverters is extremely hot, sometimes > it goes into F66 and takes down the adjacent inverters with it to F66 > probably because of these Xanbus network is broken. > > I disabled charging and discharging on the inverter that is getting > hot, but it's still remains very hot. Any ideas? > > I tried to put that one inverter in standby, but the generator will not > sync with the remaining three and charge the batteries. So I have to > leave it in normal operating mode for the moment. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Jun 13 11:41:03 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2024 08:41:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 HOT! In-Reply-To: <8f88b0175777213a90c5b0a638c46007@sti.net> References: <8f88b0175777213a90c5b0a638c46007@sti.net> Message-ID: Going out the door. If the bad inverter is the master. You will need to assign a new master. Since this is 1st generation XW you will need to use SCP and probably use the manual if you are not familiar. Rebuild the xanbus network. That is alot of loading and the usual warnings about heat killing electronics and the need of cooling down your way. Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-06-13 8:26 am, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Disco 250A breaker on bad XW and remove its xanbus RJ45. Assume the bad > one is not the master? > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On 2024-06-13 8:01 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> I'm looking at an off-grid quad inverter setup for a client, not my >> installation. One of the stacked.inverters is extremely hot, sometimes >> it goes into F66 and takes down the adjacent inverters with it to F66 >> probably because of these Xanbus network is broken. >> >> I disabled charging and discharging on the inverter that is getting >> hot, but it's still remains very hot. Any ideas? >> >> I tried to put that one inverter in standby, but the generator will >> not sync with the remaining three and charge the batteries. So I have >> to leave it in normal operating mode for the moment. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Thu Jun 13 13:12:25 2024 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2024 17:12:25 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 HOT! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jason, Have you checked the black removeable air intake filter on the bottom of the inverter to make sure it’s not clogged up? Check fan operation with a piece of paper above the inverter – is it blowing air? That’s where I’d start. Kevin From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches Sent: June-13-24 8:01 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jason Szumlanski Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 HOT! I'm looking at an off-grid quad inverter setup for a client, not my installation. One of the stacked.inverters is extremely hot, sometimes it goes into F66 and takes down the adjacent inverters with it to F66 probably because of these Xanbus network is broken. I disabled charging and discharging on the inverter that is getting hot, but it's still remains very hot. Any ideas? I tried to put that one inverter in standby, but the generator will not sync with the remaining three and charge the batteries. So I have to leave it in normal operating mode for the moment. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jun 13 15:02:55 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2024 15:02:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Failed Enphase End Cap In-Reply-To: <69d66e89-29be-4c2f-8014-6adff97f4af3@entech-engineering.com> References: <5ec060aad73dafca741c9dcb6804f450@redwoodalliance.org> <69d66e89-29be-4c2f-8014-6adff97f4af3@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: It looks like it melted from arcing. When we have a service call for a branch circuit down in an Enphase system we go straight to the end cap or field wireable connectors. Some solar installers don't follow directions or are careless when installing them (both M-series and IQ series). I recently had a new hire that I was observing on his first day. He just cut the Enphase IQ cable off and stuck it in the end cap. I asked why he didn't split it down the middle first, and follow the manufacturer's instructions. He looked at me in astonishment and said his previous employer never taught him how to do that, and that he had installed hundreds of string terminators that way! I laughed and said he would likely be going back to many of them and getting paid to fix his own mistake since we are one of the few contractors around here that is willing to service systems installed by others. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Jun 13, 2024 at 9:54 AM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I don't know if of interest, but we had 2 subarrays, with one having a > hard bolted fault it appeared. It occurred around the same time the > customer's meter enclosure fell apart. The second subarray continued to > operate as expected after meter enclosure replaced. Did all trouble > shooting I could think of from the ground and the conclusion was it was on > the roof. This was found before we removed any modules. Shorted through the > cap (lower hole in cap). The system operated very well for four years. > > > Chris > > > 🙁 > -- > Christopher Warfel > ENTECH Engineering Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-477-5773 > [image: EE Logo] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Failed Enphase End Cap.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 713387 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jun 13 15:15:45 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2024 19:15:45 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 HOT! In-Reply-To: <8f88b0175777213a90c5b0a638c46007@sti.net> References: <8f88b0175777213a90c5b0a638c46007@sti.net> Message-ID: <1a9a5781-f805-0add-c29f-aa9b690f0f80@floridasolardesigngroup.com> Yeah, my next step was going to be that. It is the third inverter in the Xanbus daisy chain, and not the master, so I assume when it faults due to overtemp and shuts down, the Xanbus network stops there. Because there is no Xanbus terminator in the #2 inverter, it can't communicate, and the #4 inverter also can't communicate because the signal doesn't get that far. I'm hypothesizing here because I have been unable to duplicate the fault in my presence.  What I was going to try to do first is get #2, 3, and #4 to fault out, then move the Xanbus terminator from #4 to #2 and see if #2 comes back online. But I might just call it a day and take #3 out of commission. It's just over 10 years old... If another inverter fails, we will probably start over with a new system. 18kW is enough for this customer, but 12K is likely not. I was going to propose two Sol-Ark 15K, for a new system now, but he has 8 maxed out strings of PV (huge array), so I might go with three Sol-Ark 15K to handle up to 9 MPPT strings, which is probably overkill, but necessary if I want to eliminate the existing charge controllers. I'm trying to get every customer on the island to use the same inverter brand so I can streamline servicing for all of them. There are about 30 homes with some new ones under construction, and I stumbled into being "the guy" out there. Most of the newer homes have Sol-Ark inverters. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Jun 13, 2024 at 11:27 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Disco 250A breaker on bad XW and remove its xanbus RJ45. Assume the bad one is > not the master? > > >   > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/https://offgridsolar1.com/https://offgridsolar1.com/ http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.netoffgridsolar@sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > > > > On 2024-06-13 8:01 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > > I'm looking at an off-grid quad inverter setup for a client, not my > > installation. One of the stacked.inverters is extremely hot, sometimes it > > goes into F66 and takes down the adjacent inverters with it to F66 probably > > because of these Xanbus network is broken.  > >   > > I disabled charging and discharging on the inverter that is getting hot, but > > it's still remains very hot. Any ideas?  > >   > > I tried to put that one inverter in standby, but the generator will not sync > > with the remaining three and charge the batteries. So I have to leave it in > > normal operating mode for the moment.  > >   > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group  -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jun 13 17:22:02 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2024 17:22:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 HOT! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, I checked the air flow. It seems equal to the others. It's really strange because after turning off Inverting and Charging, the unit is idle and does not cool down. That's worrisome. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Jun 13, 2024 at 1:12 PM Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Jason, > > > > Have you checked the black removeable air intake filter on the bottom of > the inverter to make sure it’s not clogged up? Check fan operation with a > piece of paper above the inverter – is it blowing air? That’s where I’d > start. > > > > Kevin > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* June-13-24 8:01 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 HOT! > > > > I'm looking at an off-grid quad inverter setup for a client, not my > installation. One of the stacked.inverters is extremely hot, sometimes it > goes into F66 and takes down the adjacent inverters with it to F66 probably > because of these Xanbus network is broken. > > > > I disabled charging and discharging on the inverter that is getting hot, > but it's still remains very hot. Any ideas? > > > > I tried to put that one inverter in standby, but the generator will not > sync with the remaining three and charge the batteries. So I have to leave > it in normal operating mode for the moment. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jun 13 17:27:18 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2024 17:27:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 HOT! In-Reply-To: References: <8f88b0175777213a90c5b0a638c46007@sti.net> Message-ID: It has a Combox and I was able to check the system using the web interface on the local network. There were no faults at the time I was there, but there was an OverTemp warning. I have not personally observed it with the F66 error, so I don't know anything else, but it stands to reason that eventually the warning reaches the level of a fault/error. I'm going to see what happens with the Inverter and Charger functions disabled. If it faults out again, I will just delete it from the system. Thanks, everyone, for the help. I'll report back if I learn anything else. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Jun 13, 2024 at 11:41 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Going out the door. > > If the bad inverter is the master. You will need to assign a new master. > Since this is 1st generation XW you will need to use SCP and probably use > the manual if you are not familiar. Rebuild the xanbus network. > > That is alot of loading and the usual warnings about heat killing > electronics and the need of cooling down your way. Good Luck! > > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2024-06-13 8:26 am, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Disco 250A breaker on bad XW and remove its xanbus RJ45. Assume the bad > one is not the master? > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2024-06-13 8:01 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I'm looking at an off-grid quad inverter setup for a client, not my > installation. One of the stacked.inverters is extremely hot, sometimes it > goes into F66 and takes down the adjacent inverters with it to F66 probably > because of these Xanbus network is broken. > > I disabled charging and discharging on the inverter that is getting hot, > but it's still remains very hot. Any ideas? > > I tried to put that one inverter in standby, but the generator will not > sync with the remaining three and charge the batteries. So I have to leave > it in normal operating mode for the moment. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Jun 13 17:31:18 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2024 14:31:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 HOT! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes worrisome. The fault log will show possible causes. The troubleshooting guide will tell you too look for black chunks of mosfet transistors in the right bay of XW down low. Really rare, but in a hot environment 10 years is pretty amazing. All of the docs are on the Schneider site under XW 120. https://solar.se.com/us/en/discontinued-products/ Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-06-13 2:22 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > Yes, I checked the air flow. It seems equal to the others. It's really > strange because after turning off Inverting and Charging, the unit is > idle and does not cool down. That's worrisome. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Thu, Jun 13, 2024 at 1:12 PM Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches > wrote: > >> Hi Jason, >> >> Have you checked the black removeable air intake filter on the bottom >> of the inverter to make sure it's not clogged up? Check fan operation >> with a piece of paper above the inverter - is it blowing air? That's >> where I'd start. >> >> Kevin >> >> From: RE-wrenches On >> Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches >> Sent: June-13-24 8:01 AM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Cc: Jason Szumlanski >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 HOT! >> >> I'm looking at an off-grid quad inverter setup for a client, not my >> installation. One of the stacked.inverters is extremely hot, sometimes >> it goes into F66 and takes down the adjacent inverters with it to F66 >> probably because of these Xanbus network is broken. >> >> I disabled charging and discharging on the inverter that is getting >> hot, but it's still remains very hot. Any ideas? >> >> I tried to put that one inverter in standby, but the generator will >> not sync with the remaining three and charge the batteries. So I have >> to leave it in normal operating mode for the moment. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From greg at remotepowerinc.com Sat Jun 15 13:18:23 2024 From: greg at remotepowerinc.com (greg egan) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2024 09:18:23 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dual battery bank switch for 48 VDC system Message-ID: <1aba1cb9-e0c7-4919-bd2d-49423c6861c2@remotepowerinc.com> Wrenches,  I have a customer who has a 2 strings of AGM's @ 48 VDC that we want to split so we can charge them at decent charge rate. Adding more PV and/or larger generator and inverter is cost prohibitive.  I've seen Blue Seas (#3002) 4 position 500 amp switches that are rated for 32VDC.  Max he could possibly pull at once with his system is less than 100 amps. I would assume the Blue Seas 3002 would work and I'd probably use it in my garage, but I'm not comfortable recommending it to a customer.  Any suggestions on a 60 VDC rated unit that could handle say 150 amps and 4/0 cables? Maybe I'm being too cautious since the max load would be < 6KW and the 3002 is rated for 16kW load (32 VDC /500A)?   Thoughts? Thank you, Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. Fairbanks, AK From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Jun 15 13:49:01 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2024 11:49:01 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dual battery bank switch for 48 VDC system In-Reply-To: <1aba1cb9-e0c7-4919-bd2d-49423c6861c2@remotepowerinc.com> References: <1aba1cb9-e0c7-4919-bd2d-49423c6861c2@remotepowerinc.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Jun 15 13:50:00 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2024 10:50:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dual battery bank switch for 48 VDC system In-Reply-To: <1aba1cb9-e0c7-4919-bd2d-49423c6861c2@remotepowerinc.com> References: <1aba1cb9-e0c7-4919-bd2d-49423c6861c2@remotepowerinc.com> Message-ID: <4971bb5933f85f8009435a09dc69be0f@sti.net> Good Luck ! I look every year and there are never any rated this high. A few knock-off cheap ones but??? I have used the Blue Seas and one other with this app. If you are careful about switching under big loads/EQV's it will last. If this is an insured home, you have to disclose this or be Lawyer fodder in a fire. Even then I would let the client buy it. The other way around is to use 250A rated Midnite or Schneider inverter breakers. It is clunky as you have to know what you are doing when using it. You could easily turn both off and lose power. The 4 position Blue Seas takes that out and is much easier to understand. I did the 250s a few times and it worked well, is not inexpensive, and was legal for Home Insurance. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-06-15 10:18 am, greg egan via RE-wrenches wrote: > Wrenches, I have a customer who has a 2 strings of AGM's @ 48 VDC that > we want to split so we can charge them at decent charge rate. Adding > more PV and/or larger generator and inverter is cost prohibitive. I've > seen Blue Seas (#3002) 4 position 500 amp switches that are rated for > 32VDC. Max he could possibly pull at once with his system is less than > 100 amps. > > I would assume the Blue Seas 3002 would work and I'd probably use it in > my garage, but I'm not comfortable recommending it to a customer. Any > suggestions on a 60 VDC rated unit that could handle say 150 amps and > 4/0 cables? > > Maybe I'm being too cautious since the max load would be < 6KW and the > 3002 is rated for 16kW load (32 VDC /500A)? Thoughts? > > Thank you, > > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc. > Fairbanks, AK > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From greg at remotepowerinc.com Sat Jun 15 14:11:21 2024 From: greg at remotepowerinc.com (greg egan) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2024 10:11:21 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dual battery bank switch for 48 VDC system In-Reply-To: References: <1aba1cb9-e0c7-4919-bd2d-49423c6861c2@remotepowerinc.com> Message-ID: <92e4b1e5-ac79-4d73-a7cf-8887427aeff6@remotepowerinc.com> Jay, the Blue Seas 3002 states it's "make before break" So I'm assuming the lights don't go out when you make the switch.  Anyway, thanks for the Midnite option.  I'll take a look, Greg On 6/15/2024 9:49 AM, Jay wrote: > Hi Greg > > How about this midnite box > midnitesolar.com > > > > > > > Personally what I don’t like about single switch A or B is there is an > off time. > > With the midnite box, you switch both on, and turn the off the one you > want. That way there is never an off time. > > Just a thought. > > Jay > >> On Jun 15, 2024, at 11:19 AM, greg egan via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> Wrenches,  I have a customer who has a 2 strings of AGM's @ 48 VDC >> that we want to split so we can charge them at decent charge rate. >> Adding more PV and/or larger generator and inverter is cost >> prohibitive.  I've seen Blue Seas (#3002) 4 position 500 amp switches >> that are rated for 32VDC.  Max he could possibly pull at once with >> his system is less than 100 amps. >> >> I would assume the Blue Seas 3002 would work and I'd probably use it >> in my garage, but I'm not comfortable recommending it to a customer.  >> Any suggestions on a 60 VDC rated unit that could handle say 150 amps >> and 4/0 cables? >> >> Maybe I'm being too cautious since the max load would be < 6KW and >> the 3002 is rated for 16kW load (32 VDC /500A)?   Thoughts? >> >> Thank you, >> >> Greg Egan >> Remote Power Inc. >> Fairbanks, AK >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Sat Jun 15 14:15:31 2024 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2024 14:15:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dual battery bank switch for 48 VDC system In-Reply-To: <1aba1cb9-e0c7-4919-bd2d-49423c6861c2@remotepowerinc.com> References: <1aba1cb9-e0c7-4919-bd2d-49423c6861c2@remotepowerinc.com> Message-ID: Eaton Double Throw 100 Amp Generator Transfer Switch DT223URK-NPS rated @ 250 vdc, 100 amp, non-fusible On Sat, Jun 15, 2024 at 1:19 PM greg egan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches, I have a customer who has a 2 strings of AGM's @ 48 VDC that > we want to split so we can charge them at decent charge rate. Adding > more PV and/or larger generator and inverter is cost prohibitive. I've > seen Blue Seas (#3002) 4 position 500 amp switches that are rated for > 32VDC. Max he could possibly pull at once with his system is less than > 100 amps. > > I would assume the Blue Seas 3002 would work and I'd probably use it in > my garage, but I'm not comfortable recommending it to a customer. Any > suggestions on a 60 VDC rated unit that could handle say 150 amps and > 4/0 cables? > > Maybe I'm being too cautious since the max load would be < 6KW and the > 3002 is rated for 16kW load (32 VDC /500A)? Thoughts? > > Thank you, > > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc. > Fairbanks, AK > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Jun 17 17:49:53 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2024 15:49:53 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback app Message-ID: <333E7094-0E93-4A48-80D4-F5602261494A@gmail.com> Is the Outback app working? I can log into my account but not the app? Thx Jay From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Jun 17 18:00:51 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2024 15:00:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback app In-Reply-To: <333E7094-0E93-4A48-80D4-F5602261494A@gmail.com> References: <333E7094-0E93-4A48-80D4-F5602261494A@gmail.com> Message-ID: Is this referring to the Android or iOS app? They appear to be dead horses. Optics is functional via a web browser. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-06-17 2:49 pm, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > Is the Outback app working? > > I can log into my account but not the app? > > Thx > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Jun 17 18:03:35 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2024 16:03:35 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback app In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4002D81E-5E3D-403C-BD5C-A3CFDF43FB23@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Jun 17 18:29:28 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2024 18:29:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback app In-Reply-To: <4002D81E-5E3D-403C-BD5C-A3CFDF43FB23@gmail.com> References: <4002D81E-5E3D-403C-BD5C-A3CFDF43FB23@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have a few clients on Optics, and one system my family owns, and all of them say the app doesn't work, but the web version does right now. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 6:04 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi dave > > Thanks, IOS. > Guess dead either way. > > Jay > > On Jun 17, 2024, at 4:01 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Is this referring to the Android or iOS app? > They appear to be dead horses. > Optics is functional via a web browser. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2024-06-17 2:49 pm, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Is the Outback app working? > > I can log into my account but not the app? > > Thx > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Jun 17 23:40:58 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2024 20:40:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need 1 Siemens SP160-24P Message-ID: <01cde2c69ecda7826c1f3cc9adb4b6ee@mail.gmail.com> To replace a failed unit. As always, off list response is appreciated. Thanks, William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Jun 18 00:04:21 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2024 21:04:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dual battery bank switch for 48 VDC system In-Reply-To: <1aba1cb9-e0c7-4919-bd2d-49423c6861c2@remotepowerinc.com> References: <1aba1cb9-e0c7-4919-bd2d-49423c6861c2@remotepowerinc.com> Message-ID: Greg: Let me say I think the idea is generally bad. Your client would need to be actively involved managing this system on an hour by hour basis or both battery banks are likely to be ruined. If you want to switch between batteries, unless both battery arrays are at a very similar voltage (+/- 0.5 volts) you should not parallel them. In that scenario you would need to shut down the inverter(s), switch battery banks, then restart the inverter. A breaker interlock may be in order to prevent bad things from happening. Like I said, a bad idea. If you have too much battery to match the PV capabilities you need to reduce the battery bank capacity. If this system includes valid BOS components, and you still want to experiment, integrate within that system by adding a battery breaker. If it does not have a decent BOS (Outback Flexware, Midnite DC breaker panel, for example) that is a problem in itself. Add the BOS. The PV charge needs to have either two battery breakers or be wired on the inverter side of the battery breaker, an arrangement that I do not recommend. Did I mention I think this is a bad idea? William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of greg egan via RE-wrenches Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2024 10:18 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: greg egan Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dual battery bank switch for 48 VDC system Wrenches, I have a customer who has a 2 strings of AGM's @ 48 VDC that we want to split so we can charge them at decent charge rate. Adding more PV and/or larger generator and inverter is cost prohibitive. I've seen Blue Seas (#3002) 4 position 500 amp switches that are rated for 32VDC. Max he could possibly pull at once with his system is less than 100 amps. I would assume the Blue Seas 3002 would work and I'd probably use it in my garage, but I'm not comfortable recommending it to a customer. Any suggestions on a 60 VDC rated unit that could handle say 150 amps and 4/0 cables? Maybe I'm being too cautious since the max load would be < 6KW and the 3002 is rated for 16kW load (32 VDC /500A)? Thoughts? Thank you, Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. Fairbanks, AK _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From iesbatteries at gmail.com Tue Jun 18 07:11:06 2024 From: iesbatteries at gmail.com (Daryl DeJoy) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2024 07:11:06 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] REC Twin Peak 305/310/315/320 Message-ID: I have a client who dropped a tree on his array and I need to replace a single module. If anyone has one, used or otherwise, please contact me off list. I'd be happy to find one. Thank you, Daryl DeJoy NABCEP Certified PVIP since 2006 Island Energy Storage (207) 479-2252 Virus-free.www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Tue Jun 18 09:21:04 2024 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2024 09:21:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] REC Twin Peak 305/310/315/320 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <06db38aa-dce5-4dd0-b2e4-a72f8c3e2f54@entech-engineering.com> Daryl, check SunElec in FL.  I got one from them. Chris On 6/18/2024 7:11 AM, Daryl DeJoy via RE-wrenches wrote: > I have a client who dropped a tree on his array and I need to replace > a single module. If anyone has one, used or otherwise, please contact > me off list. I'd be happy to find one. > > Thank you, > Daryl DeJoy > NABCEP Certified PVIP since 2006 > Island Energy Storage > (207) 479-2252 > > > Virus-free.www.avast.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel           ENTECH Engineering Inc.    PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                   401-477-5773 EE Logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/vcard Size: 203 bytes Desc: not available URL: From iesbatteries at gmail.com Tue Jun 18 09:29:22 2024 From: iesbatteries at gmail.com (Daryl DeJoy) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2024 09:29:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] REC Twin Peak 305/310/315/320 In-Reply-To: <06db38aa-dce5-4dd0-b2e4-a72f8c3e2f54@entech-engineering.com> References: <06db38aa-dce5-4dd0-b2e4-a72f8c3e2f54@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Thanks Chris! On Tue, Jun 18, 2024, 9:22 AM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Daryl, check SunElec in FL. I got one from them. Chris > On 6/18/2024 7:11 AM, Daryl DeJoy via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I have a client who dropped a tree on his array and I need to replace a > single module. If anyone has one, used or otherwise, please contact me off > list. I'd be happy to find one. > > Thank you, > Daryl DeJoy > NABCEP Certified PVIP since 2006 > Island Energy Storage > (207) 479-2252 > > > > Virus-free.www.avast.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > Christopher Warfel > ENTECH Engineering Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-477-5773 > [image: EE Logo] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue Jun 18 11:57:21 2024 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2024 11:57:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] REC Twin Peak 305/310/315/320 Message-ID: FYI, they distributed emails a month or so ago that they were going out of business...-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenchesDate: Tue, Jun 18, 2024 9:21 AMTo: Daryl DeJoy via RE-wrenches;Cc: Christopher Warfel;Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] REC Twin Peak 305/310/315/320 Daryl, check SunElec in FL.  I got one from them. Chris On 6/18/2024 7:11 AM, Daryl DeJoy via RE-wrenches wrote: I have a client who dropped a tree on his array and I need to replace a single module. If anyone has one, used or otherwise, please contact me off list. I'd be happy to find one. Thank you, Daryl DeJoy NABCEP Certified PVIP since 2006 Island Energy Storage (207) 479-2252 Virus-free.www.avast.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org --        Christopher Warfel           ENTECH Engineering Inc.    PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                   401-477-5773 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Tue Jun 18 12:39:19 2024 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2024 09:39:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] REC Twin Peak 305/310/315/320 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From iesbatteries at gmail.com Tue Jun 18 12:42:51 2024 From: iesbatteries at gmail.com (Daryl DeJoy) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2024 12:42:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] REC Twin Peak 305/310/315/320 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think he meant Sun Electronics On Tue, Jun 18, 2024, 12:39 PM MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > REC going out of business? > > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > On Jun 18, 2024, at 8:58 AM, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > FYI, they distributed emails a month or so ago that they were going out of > business... > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > *From: *Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches > *Date: *Tue, Jun 18, 2024 9:21 AM > *To: *Daryl DeJoy via RE-wrenches; > *Cc: *Christopher Warfel; > *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] REC Twin Peak 305/310/315/320 > > Daryl, check SunElec in FL. I got one from them. Chris > On 6/18/2024 7:11 AM, Daryl DeJoy via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I have a client who dropped a tree on his array and I need to replace a > single module. If anyone has one, used or otherwise, please contact me off > list. I'd be happy to find one. > > Thank you, > Daryl DeJoy > NABCEP Certified PVIP since 2006 > Island Energy Storage > (207) 479-2252 > > Virus-free.www.avast.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list > archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > Christopher Warfel > ENTECH Engineering Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-477-5773 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From George.McClellan at recgroup.com Tue Jun 18 12:50:36 2024 From: George.McClellan at recgroup.com (George McClellan) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2024 16:50:36 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] REC Twin Peak 305/310/315/320 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: REC is doing just fine and is certainly not going out of business. We have 430 W and a new 470 W available now, with a 610 W commercial product coming to the US in Q3/4. George McClellan | Senior Technical Sales Manager | REC Americas LLC 735 Tank Farm Rd Ste 130 | San Luis Obispo, CA |93401 Cell phone +1 805 704 3226 | Fax +1 805 357 6104 www.recgroup.com | george.mcclellan at recgroup.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2024 9:39 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: MDElectricSolar Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] REC Twin Peak 305/310/315/320 REC going out of business? Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar On Jun 18, 2024, at 8:58 AM, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches > wrote:  FYI, they distributed emails a month or so ago that they were going out of business... -Glenn Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. ------ Original message------ From: Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches Date: Tue, Jun 18, 2024 9:21 AM To: Daryl DeJoy via RE-wrenches; Cc: Christopher Warfel; Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] REC Twin Peak 305/310/315/320 Daryl, check SunElec in FL. I got one from them. Chris On 6/18/2024 7:11 AM, Daryl DeJoy via RE-wrenches wrote: I have a client who dropped a tree on his array and I need to replace a single module. If anyone has one, used or otherwise, please contact me off list. I'd be happy to find one. Thank you, Daryl DeJoy NABCEP Certified PVIP since 2006 Island Energy Storage (207) 479-2252 Virus-free.www.avast.com "" sig-email?utm_medium="email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail" " target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"> Christopher Warfel ENTECH Engineering Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-477-5773 EE Logo _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ________________________________ This message is private and confidential and may be privileged. Any unauthorized use, dissemination of the information or copying of this message is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately and remove it from your system. Thank you. ________________________________ This message is private and confidential and may be privileged. Any unauthorized use, dissemination of the information or copying of this message is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately and remove it from your system. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Tue Jun 18 13:45:38 2024 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2024 10:45:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] REC Twin Peak 305/310/315/320 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue Jun 18 13:04:29 2024 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2024 13:04:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] REC Twin Peak 305/310/315/320 Message-ID: The subject of the email I replied to was SunElec-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: George McClellan via RE-wrenchesDate: Tue, Jun 18, 2024 12:52 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: George McClellan;Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] REC Twin Peak 305/310/315/320 REC is doing just fine and is certainly not going out of business.  We have 430 W and a new 470 W available now, with a 610 W commercial product coming to the US in Q3/4.    George McClellan | Senior Technical Sales Manager | REC Americas LLC 735 Tank Farm Rd Ste 130 | San Luis Obispo, CA |93401 Cell phone +1 805 704 3226 | Fax +1 805 357 6104 www.recgroup.com | george.mcclellan at recgroup.com       From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2024 9:39 AM To: RE-wrenches > Cc: MDElectricSolar > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] REC Twin Peak 305/310/315/320   REC going out of business?   Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar   On Jun 18, 2024, at 8:58 AM, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches wrote:  FYI, they distributed emails a month or so ago that they were going out of business...   -Glenn Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.   ------ Original message------ From: Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches Date: Tue, Jun 18, 2024 9:21 AM To: Daryl DeJoy via RE-wrenches; Cc: Christopher Warfel; Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] REC Twin Peak 305/310/315/320   Daryl, check SunElec in FL.  I got one from them. Chris On 6/18/2024 7:11 AM, Daryl DeJoy via RE-wrenches wrote: I have a client who dropped a tree on his array and I need to replace a single module. If anyone has one, used or otherwise, please contact me off list. I'd be happy to find one.   Thank you, Daryl DeJoy NABCEP Certified PVIP since 2006 Island Energy Storage (207) 479-2252 Virus-free.www.avast.com="" sig-email?utm_medium="email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail" " target="_blank" style="color:#4453ea" ="" moz-do-not-send="true">www.avast.com s-install.avcdn.net="" ipm="" preview="" icons="" icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif? ="" alt="" style="width: 46px; height: 29px;" ="" moz-do-not-send="true" width="46" height="29"> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance   Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org   List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org   Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org   There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org   List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm   Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org   --        Christopher Warfel           ENTECH Engineering Inc.    PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                   401-477-5773 com.lge.email.attachmentprovider/8/16108/RAW" ="" alt="EE Logo" width="274" height="121" border="0"> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org   This message is private and confidential and may be privileged. Any unauthorized use, dissemination of the information or copying of this message is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately and remove it from your system. Thank you. This message is private and confidential and may be privileged. Any unauthorized use, dissemination of the information or copying of this message is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately and remove it from your system. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Jun 20 02:26:43 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2024 23:26:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC V DC RE: electrolysis Message-ID: Friends: I have an installation of 12 Enphase IQ inverters that is downstream from a generator transfer switch. During power outages the generator will run poorly when the Enphase is on and the sun is shining. The problems go away when the Enphase is shut off. No surprises about this. The Enphase is installed on a barn about 150 conduit feet from the generator transfer switch. My plan is to create a low voltage signal when the generator is running and send it to a coil on a contactor in the barn. Said contactor will disconnect the 12 micro-inverters. There is existing one 26 AWG pairs of a Cat 6 cable running between the buildings. I have found a two pole, 30A contactor that draws 7 watts on the coil. The voltage drop calcs on 150 feet of 26 AWG wire shows a 24 volt signal will not cause excessive voltage drop (~4%). Here is where I am uncertain: Should I run 24 volts AC or DC? My concern about DC is if there are any damp connections, electrolysis will occur that might erode the 26 AWG conductors. We’ve all seen powder where copper used to be. Is AC less susceptible to electrolysis? My research has turned up no pertinent conclusions. Thanks in advance. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Jun 20 07:27:08 2024 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2024 05:27:08 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC V DC RE: electrolysis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi William, I don't want to hijack this thread but I want to give you another idea for disconnecting the Enphase circuit. Generac makes a very convenient load shed device called Smart Management Module SMM50. This may be a good option for you. Instead of having a signal wire/trench etc, it is a pass through relay with a board that samples the line voltage. If it senses that the voltage is supplied by a generator, you can program it to lock out the load. You could place it on the interconnection of the enphase circuit. They only guarantee it will work with a Generac generator, but I suspect it will work with other brands as well. This could be worth considering. Good luck! On Thu, Jun 20, 2024 at 12:35 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > > > I have an installation of 12 Enphase IQ inverters that is downstream from > a generator transfer switch. During power outages the generator will run > poorly when the Enphase is on and the sun is shining. The problems go away > when the Enphase is shut off. No surprises about this. > > > > The Enphase is installed on a barn about 150 conduit feet from the > generator transfer switch. My plan is to create a low voltage signal when > the generator is running and send it to a coil on a contactor in the barn. > Said contactor will disconnect the 12 micro-inverters. > > > > There is existing one 26 AWG pairs of a Cat 6 cable running between the > buildings. I have found a two pole, 30A contactor that draws 7 watts on > the coil. The voltage drop calcs on 150 feet of 26 AWG wire shows a 24 > volt signal will not cause excessive voltage drop (~4%). > > > > Here is where I am uncertain: Should I run 24 volts AC or DC? My concern > about DC is if there are any damp connections, electrolysis will occur that > might erode the 26 AWG conductors. We’ve all seen powder where copper used > to be. Is AC less susceptible to electrolysis? My research has turned up > no pertinent conclusions. > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Jun 20 10:04:18 2024 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2024 07:04:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC V DC RE: electrolysis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: William and wrenches, If these 24's are in there own conduit with no AC then it does not matter as much but if the 24,s are in a blended conduitwith AC then your choice is only AC and even then you may need a termination resistor to kill and transient voltage at the contactor. Wires running distances in close proximity to AC wires will develop goast voltage triggering replays. Fun times On Wed, Jun 19, 2024, 11:35 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > > > I have an installation of 12 Enphase IQ inverters that is downstream from > a generator transfer switch. During power outages the generator will run > poorly when the Enphase is on and the sun is shining. The problems go away > when the Enphase is shut off. No surprises about this. > > > > The Enphase is installed on a barn about 150 conduit feet from the > generator transfer switch. My plan is to create a low voltage signal when > the generator is running and send it to a coil on a contactor in the barn. > Said contactor will disconnect the 12 micro-inverters. > > > > There is existing one 26 AWG pairs of a Cat 6 cable running between the > buildings. I have found a two pole, 30A contactor that draws 7 watts on > the coil. The voltage drop calcs on 150 feet of 26 AWG wire shows a 24 > volt signal will not cause excessive voltage drop (~4%). > > > > Here is where I am uncertain: Should I run 24 volts AC or DC? My concern > about DC is if there are any damp connections, electrolysis will occur that > might erode the 26 AWG conductors. We’ve all seen powder where copper used > to be. Is AC less susceptible to electrolysis? My research has turned up > no pertinent conclusions. > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Thu Jun 20 11:10:52 2024 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2024 11:10:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC V DC RE: electrolysis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, There are several different ways to accomplish this via RF signalling. One discussed before here is to use the IO-WRP kit from supplyhouse.com. I did exactly what you want (disconnecting an inverter feed remotely when the generator started) using this kit and relay / contactor. And check out offerings at https://www.rfsolutions.co.uk/. I just set up a wireless genny start / stop from the dry contact of a Fortress Envy, with one of their xmitter (Bogeyboard) and receiver (Quanta) pairs. @ about 1/2 the price of the IO-WRP setup. The Rfsolutions stuff is quite versatile, just about anything can be told to turn on or off, based on one or more 0v inputs. A wide variety of function inventory to choose from. A found the products I needed in stock at Digikey and Mouser, respectively. On Thu, Jun 20, 2024 at 2:35 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > > > I have an installation of 12 Enphase IQ inverters that is downstream from > a generator transfer switch. During power outages the generator will run > poorly when the Enphase is on and the sun is shining. The problems go away > when the Enphase is shut off. No surprises about this. > > > > The Enphase is installed on a barn about 150 conduit feet from the > generator transfer switch. My plan is to create a low voltage signal when > the generator is running and send it to a coil on a contactor in the barn. > Said contactor will disconnect the 12 micro-inverters. > > > > There is existing one 26 AWG pairs of a Cat 6 cable running between the > buildings. I have found a two pole, 30A contactor that draws 7 watts on > the coil. The voltage drop calcs on 150 feet of 26 AWG wire shows a 24 > volt signal will not cause excessive voltage drop (~4%). > > > > Here is where I am uncertain: Should I run 24 volts AC or DC? My concern > about DC is if there are any damp connections, electrolysis will occur that > might erode the 26 AWG conductors. We’ve all seen powder where copper used > to be. Is AC less susceptible to electrolysis? My research has turned up > no pertinent conclusions. > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From greg at remotepowerinc.com Thu Jun 20 16:29:37 2024 From: greg at remotepowerinc.com (greg egan) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2024 12:29:37 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dual battery bank switch for 48 VDC system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8b0301f1-ac15-4618-8aef-fa2eb7793604@remotepowerinc.com> William, thanks for the reply. In the scenario I'm thinking we use the Blue Seas #3002 switch which has a battery bank A, bank B or A & B option. Under normal circumstances he has it set to A&B. When he wants to eq / condition his Concorde PVX series AGM's he switches to bank A and begins charging. When the bank is fully charged he switches to B. The switch is make before break so the lights stay on. Bank A sits there fully charged with no load. Loses less than .5% /month at 25C. Next day he charges Bank B fully and then flips the switch to A + B and marks on his calendar to do this again in 2 months. This site is mostly charged with generator in winter (Fairbanks AK). Exclusively with PV in spring/summer. Customer is smart. Understands what's involved. Kind of an ideal customer in that he figures out most things by reading the manuals and when he has a question, he calls or emails me. I'm guessing now that I've told you more you no longer think he'd need to manage the system hourly. Or am I missing something? Thank you, Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. Greg: Let me say I think the idea is generally bad. Your client would need to be actively involved managing this system on an hour by hour basis or both battery banks are likely to be ruined. If you want to switch between batteries, unless both battery arrays are at a very similar voltage (+/- 0.5 volts) you should not parallel them. In that scenario you would need to shut down the inverter(s), switch battery banks, then restart the inverter. A breaker interlock may be in order to prevent bad things from happening. Like I said, a bad idea. If you have too much battery to match the PV capabilities you need to reduce the battery bank capacity. If this system includes valid BOS components, and you still want to experiment, integrate within that system by adding a battery breaker. If it does not have a decent BOS (Outback Flexware, Midnite DC breaker panel, for example) that is a problem in itself. Add the BOS. The PV charge needs to have either two battery breakers or be wired on the inverter side of the battery breaker, an arrangement that I do not recommend. Did I mention I think this is a bad idea? William Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Fri Jun 21 01:43:20 2024 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2024 22:43:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC V DC RE: electrolysis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Greetings Mac, Have you personally had success with this by chance? I inherited maintenance of a system for a friend whose original installer went out of business and this was their original approach as well however they and they had used the 100 amp version (even though the system produces just 24 amps). When I originally inspected 3 years ago the system was fine but the SMM failed last fall and the homeowner missed out on a few months of production before noticing. Since this was the first time I had come across this combo I reached out to Generac for approval and two different technical support departments seemed puzzled it was used for this purpose and advised against it. I'm now seeking a similar solution like William but replacing the SMM with a new one sure would make my life easier. Couldn't really tell if I was speaking to new employees at Generac and they just weren't willing to look into it deeper or if it's truly a bad equipment pairing. Looks like it worked for about 5 years before failing and I was able to determine the failure occurred the last time the generator had ran during a grid outage. Another local electrician had said there had been a bad run of the SMM's which adds additional justification to perhaps try it out again. If you've used the SMM's for this purpose have you used the 50 as well as the 100 amp version? Thanks for the input, Nick On Thu, Jun 20, 2024 at 4:28 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi William, > > I don't want to hijack this thread but I want to give you another idea > for disconnecting the Enphase circuit. > > Generac makes a very convenient load shed device called Smart Management > Module SMM50. This may be a good option for you. Instead of having a > signal wire/trench etc, it is a pass through relay with a board that > samples the line voltage. If it senses that the voltage is supplied by a > generator, you can program it to lock out the load. You could place it on > the interconnection of the enphase circuit. They only guarantee it will > work with a Generac generator, but I suspect it will work with other brands > as well. This could be worth considering. > > Good luck! > > > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2024 at 12:35 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Friends: >> >> >> >> I have an installation of 12 Enphase IQ inverters that is downstream from >> a generator transfer switch. During power outages the generator will run >> poorly when the Enphase is on and the sun is shining. The problems go away >> when the Enphase is shut off. No surprises about this. >> >> >> >> The Enphase is installed on a barn about 150 conduit feet from the >> generator transfer switch. My plan is to create a low voltage signal when >> the generator is running and send it to a coil on a contactor in the barn. >> Said contactor will disconnect the 12 micro-inverters. >> >> >> >> There is existing one 26 AWG pairs of a Cat 6 cable running between the >> buildings. I have found a two pole, 30A contactor that draws 7 watts on >> the coil. The voltage drop calcs on 150 feet of 26 AWG wire shows a 24 >> volt signal will not cause excessive voltage drop (~4%). >> >> >> >> Here is where I am uncertain: Should I run 24 volts AC or DC? My >> concern about DC is if there are any damp connections, electrolysis will >> occur that might erode the 26 AWG conductors. We’ve all seen powder where >> copper used to be. Is AC less susceptible to electrolysis? My research >> has turned up no pertinent conclusions. >> >> >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Jun 21 08:15:31 2024 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2024 06:15:31 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC V DC RE: electrolysis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Nick, Yes I have done this. Not often but I did a site with a whole home generator with an SMA inverter using the 50A version. This homeowner is a techie and would let me know immediately if it had failed (with spreadsheets and second by second data!). In this case, it was a Generac generator brand as well. I'd look closely at the relay ratings. Perhaps the downstream load exceeded the relay ratings in some way (inrush etc). You could consider using one as a pilot relay for an appropriate relay rating if that was overlooked originally. Also, was it a logic board failure or a contactor failure? I don't see a reason why this wouldn't work fine but I'm not surprised that Generac tech support was confused. For an inverter output, it should be programmed for full lockout. This should be a fairly simple operation since the inverter shouldn't try to reconnect for a few minutes after a power outage, no current should be flowing during the lockout. Another company is doing a similar product that I've looked into as well, but I've never used: https://www.pspproducts.com/load-management/sak-60-wireless-load-management/ This looks pretty good and not generator brand specific (although I may want to see what products they have tested with it). It's kind of too easy not to try... On Thu, Jun 20, 2024 at 11:45 PM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Greetings Mac, > Have you personally had success with this by chance? I inherited > maintenance of a system for a friend whose original installer went out of > business and this was their original approach as well however they and they > had used the 100 amp version (even though the system produces just 24 > amps). When I originally inspected 3 years ago the system was fine but the > SMM failed last fall and the homeowner missed out on a few months of > production before noticing. Since this was the first time I had come across > this combo I reached out to Generac for approval and two > different technical support departments seemed puzzled it was used for this > purpose and advised against it. I'm now seeking a similar solution like > William but replacing the SMM with a new one sure would make my life > easier. Couldn't really tell if I was speaking to new employees at Generac > and they just weren't willing to look into it deeper or if it's truly a bad > equipment pairing. Looks like it worked for about 5 years before failing > and I was able to determine the failure occurred the last time the > generator had ran during a grid outage. Another local electrician had said > there had been a bad run of the SMM's which adds additional justification > to perhaps try it out again. If you've used the SMM's for this purpose have > you used the 50 as well as the 100 amp version? > > Thanks for the input, Nick > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2024 at 4:28 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi William, >> >> I don't want to hijack this thread but I want to give you another idea >> for disconnecting the Enphase circuit. >> >> Generac makes a very convenient load shed device called Smart Management >> Module SMM50. This may be a good option for you. Instead of having a >> signal wire/trench etc, it is a pass through relay with a board that >> samples the line voltage. If it senses that the voltage is supplied by a >> generator, you can program it to lock out the load. You could place it on >> the interconnection of the enphase circuit. They only guarantee it will >> work with a Generac generator, but I suspect it will work with other brands >> as well. This could be worth considering. >> >> Good luck! >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 20, 2024 at 12:35 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Friends: >>> >>> >>> >>> I have an installation of 12 Enphase IQ inverters that is downstream >>> from a generator transfer switch. During power outages the generator will >>> run poorly when the Enphase is on and the sun is shining. The problems go >>> away when the Enphase is shut off. No surprises about this. >>> >>> >>> >>> The Enphase is installed on a barn about 150 conduit feet from the >>> generator transfer switch. My plan is to create a low voltage signal when >>> the generator is running and send it to a coil on a contactor in the barn. >>> Said contactor will disconnect the 12 micro-inverters. >>> >>> >>> >>> There is existing one 26 AWG pairs of a Cat 6 cable running between the >>> buildings. I have found a two pole, 30A contactor that draws 7 watts on >>> the coil. The voltage drop calcs on 150 feet of 26 AWG wire shows a 24 >>> volt signal will not cause excessive voltage drop (~4%). >>> >>> >>> >>> Here is where I am uncertain: Should I run 24 volts AC or DC? My >>> concern about DC is if there are any damp connections, electrolysis will >>> occur that might erode the 26 AWG conductors. We’ve all seen powder where >>> copper used to be. Is AC less susceptible to electrolysis? My research >>> has turned up no pertinent conclusions. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks in advance. >>> >>> >>> >>> William Miller >>> >>> >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Fri Jun 21 08:33:54 2024 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2024 02:33:54 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] N.C. - Wilmington area quality installers Message-ID: Aloha All, I have a family member in the Wilmington North Carolina area (Carolina Beach specifically) that is wanting to go solar. Any wrenches out there in this area? or could you make a recommendation? Contact me off list. Aloha, Lou Russo Owner lou at spreesolarsystems.com 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hiltondier at gmail.com Fri Jun 21 10:12:12 2024 From: hiltondier at gmail.com (Hilton Dier) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2024 10:12:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC V DC RE: electrolysis Message-ID: <1BA3A75B-0D88-46ED-80AE-3DAD1805FC0D@gmail.com> To answer the original question, AC will not cause electrolysis. The electrons must be pushed consistently in one direction for that. That’s why people use battery chargers to power electrolysis systems for de-rusting old iron artifacts. In fact, pipeline operators will run a low amp DC current in the “wrong” direction to prevent corrosion. You could just put a standard furnace control 24v transformer on the output of the generator and it would activate the relay. Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Missisquoi River Hydro LLC From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Mon Jun 24 10:47:37 2024 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2024 10:47:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Relay Driver Message-ID: <83c5e40ab85684dc52e48605253d1b38@redwoodalliance.org> Hello, Does anyone know of a relay driver that would be work like the Morningstar Relay Driver, except that it would output a 12V DC signal, rather than battery voltage? Actually, it could put out 12V - 24 V AC, or 120 or 240 V AC. 12 V DC would be optimal. Thank you, Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Mon Jun 24 11:44:04 2024 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jarvis) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2024 10:44:04 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Relay Driver In-Reply-To: <83c5e40ab85684dc52e48605253d1b38@redwoodalliance.org> References: <83c5e40ab85684dc52e48605253d1b38@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Just run it from a 12 volt power supply. Or use it to switch a relay and that relay's contacts can switch the 12V. -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ On Mon, Jun 24, 2024 at 9:49 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello, > > Does anyone know of a relay driver that would be work like the Morningstar > Relay Driver, except that it would output a 12V DC signal, rather than > battery voltage? > > Actually, it could put out 12V - 24 V AC, or 120 or 240 V AC. 12 V DC > would be optimal. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > > *Drake Chamberlin* > > *Athens Electric LLC* > > *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* > > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Jun 26 17:36:53 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2024 14:36:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for Powerewall installer for central California Message-ID: <141751229088b0c3e9649792e96e3226@sti.net> Any wrenches installing the powerwall 3 in central Cali ? https://www.tesla.com/support/energy/powerwall/learn/what-expect-powerwall-3 Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Sat Jun 29 19:48:20 2024 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2024 19:48:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress LFP batteries and Outback charge controller Message-ID: All, I'm wondering if there are any precautions if charging a Fortress Evault LFP bank using 1 or more OB charge controllers, in tandem with an Envy inverter PV input. I know it will have to be programmed differently, and it will be open loop, no CC control from the BMU,. This is a net metered system using a Fortress 12 kw inverter. The total PV input of the inverter is 21 kw. Max sell back is 12 kw, while charging batteries at 6 kw. My issue is the customer has his heart set on maxing out the roof capacity at 25 kw. And I don't really need to add a second inverter for critical loads, Only to increase integrated DC-coupled PV capacity. So I feasibly put part of the array on external charge controller(s) , open-looped, and the remainder on a single 12kw Envy inverter. A second inverter also increases the AC capacity, and as a result, involves a more comprehensive review for net metering approval in Vermont (new trigger for additional review is greater than 15 kw AC).. -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Jun 29 20:59:46 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2024 18:59:46 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress LFP batteries and Outback charge controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Jun 30 11:10:05 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2024 08:10:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress LFP batteries and Outback charge controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You and the client lose the ability to monitor it all in one place do you not? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-06-29 4:48 pm, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches wrote: > All, > > I'm wondering if there are any precautions if charging a Fortress > Evault LFP bank using 1 or more OB charge controllers, in tandem with > an Envy inverter PV input. > > I know it will have to be programmed differently, and it will be open > loop, no CC control from the BMU,. > > This is a net metered system using a Fortress 12 kw inverter. The total > PV input of the inverter is 21 kw. Max sell back is 12 kw, while > charging batteries at 6 kw. > > My issue is the customer has his heart set on maxing out the roof > capacity at 25 kw. And I don't really need to add a second inverter for > critical loads, Only to increase integrated DC-coupled PV capacity. > > So I feasibly put part of the array on external charge controller(s) , > open-looped, and the remainder on a single 12kw Envy inverter. > > A second inverter also increases the AC capacity, and as a result, > involves a more comprehensive review for net metering approval in > Vermont (new trigger for additional review is greater than 15 kw AC).. > > -- > > Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar > > Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC > > _Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!_ > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Sun Jun 30 11:28:36 2024 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2024 11:28:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress LFP batteries and Outback charge controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, remotely at least. You need a mate 3S to monitor any outback product if you want to see it on opticsRE. But the Evault state of charge should give an accurate calculation, regardless of where the charging Current is coming from. *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 On Sun, Jun 30, 2024 at 11:11 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > You and the client lose the ability to monitor it all in one place do you > not? > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2024-06-29 4:48 pm, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches wrote: > > > All, > > I'm wondering if there are any precautions if charging a Fortress Evault > LFP bank using 1 or more OB charge controllers, in tandem with an Envy > inverter PV input. > > I know it will have to be programmed differently, and it will be open > loop, no CC control from the BMU,. > > This is a net metered system using a Fortress 12 kw inverter. The total PV > input of the inverter is 21 kw. Max sell back is 12 kw, while charging > batteries at 6 kw. > > My issue is the customer has his heart set on maxing out the roof capacity > at 25 kw. And I don't really need to add a second inverter for > critical loads, Only to increase integrated DC-coupled PV capacity. > > So I feasibly put part of the array on external charge controller(s) , > open-looped, and the remainder on a single 12kw Envy inverter. > > A second inverter also increases the AC capacity, and as a result, > involves a more comprehensive review for net metering approval in Vermont > (new trigger for additional review is greater than 15 kw AC).. > > > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Sun Jun 30 12:15:29 2024 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2024 12:15:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress LFP batteries and Outback charge controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It would be sweet if the Fortress Envy had auxiliary shunts like the Radian for measuring multiple power sources, but alas it does not. I have systems with as many as -4- online platforms, due to multiple inverter brand upgrades and AC-coupling.through the years. And when I need to see critical power curves / use patterns and other in-the-weeds stuff, I also add an egauge. Sounds crazy, but it's the only way sometimes to completely monitor and cross-check larger systems On Sun, Jun 30, 2024 at 11:11 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > You and the client lose the ability to monitor it all in one place do you > not? > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2024-06-29 4:48 pm, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches wrote: > > > All, > > I'm wondering if there are any precautions if charging a Fortress Evault > LFP bank using 1 or more OB charge controllers, in tandem with an Envy > inverter PV input. > > I know it will have to be programmed differently, and it will be open > loop, no CC control from the BMU,. > > This is a net metered system using a Fortress 12 kw inverter. The total PV > input of the inverter is 21 kw. Max sell back is 12 kw, while charging > batteries at 6 kw. > > My issue is the customer has his heart set on maxing out the roof capacity > at 25 kw. And I don't really need to add a second inverter for > critical loads, Only to increase integrated DC-coupled PV capacity. > > So I feasibly put part of the array on external charge controller(s) , > open-looped, and the remainder on a single 12kw Envy inverter. > > A second inverter also increases the AC capacity, and as a result, > involves a more comprehensive review for net metering approval in Vermont > (new trigger for additional review is greater than 15 kw AC).. > > > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Jun 30 18:23:43 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2024 16:23:43 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress LFP batteries and Outback charge controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <195F31DD-9A72-441A-8139-CD5DA678CAF5@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at evcl.com Tue Jul 2 00:12:26 2024 From: david at evcl.com (David Coale) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2024 21:12:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SW5548PV manual Message-ID: Hi Wrenchers, I am trying to get an old Trace SW5548PV inverter system up and running again. This inverter is gird tied only and does not have any batteries. While I am familiar with the battery based systems, I am not familiar with this system and the menus quite are different. Right now, the inverter will blink the line-tie LED, then try to connect, the LED stops blinking, but the inverter LED does not come on and no power is produced. I want to make sure I understand the settings and make sure they are correct before I decide to recommend a new complete system. I have searched on-line for this manual but have not been able to find the PV only version of this SW inverter. Thanks, David From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Jul 2 01:01:50 2024 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2024 22:01:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SW5548PV manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches, Way back when trace had a capacitor pack replacing a battery and it was used to ride the surge but no storage. As l recall that was the only version of a battery-less trace 5548 but there may be something out there Fun times On Mon, Jul 1, 2024, 9:13 PM David Coale via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Wrenchers, > > I am trying to get an old Trace SW5548PV inverter system up and running > again. This inverter is gird tied only and does not have any batteries. > While I am familiar with the battery based systems, I am not familiar with > this system and the menus quite are different. > > Right now, the inverter will blink the line-tie LED, then try to connect, > the LED stops blinking, but the inverter LED does not come on and no power > is produced. I want to make sure I understand the settings and make sure > they are correct before I decide to recommend a new complete system. > > I have searched on-line for this manual but have not been able to find the > PV only version of this SW inverter. > > Thanks, > > David > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Tue Jul 2 01:55:14 2024 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (Foxfire Energy) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2024 05:55:14 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SW5548PV manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3B59E4A6-7093-46E8-86BA-65F8B964EAEC@foxfire-energy.com> Check in with the Trace SW/ FX group on Facebook Sent from my iPhone On Jul 2, 2024, at 1:03 AM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches wrote:  Wrenches, Way back when trace had a capacitor pack replacing a battery and it was used to ride the surge but no storage. As l recall that was the only version of a battery-less trace 5548 but there may be something out there Fun times On Mon, Jul 1, 2024, 9:13 PM David Coale via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi Wrenchers, I am trying to get an old Trace SW5548PV inverter system up and running again. This inverter is gird tied only and does not have any batteries. While I am familiar with the battery based systems, I am not familiar with this system and the menus quite are different. Right now, the inverter will blink the line-tie LED, then try to connect, the LED stops blinking, but the inverter LED does not come on and no power is produced. I want to make sure I understand the settings and make sure they are correct before I decide to recommend a new complete system. I have searched on-line for this manual but have not been able to find the PV only version of this SW inverter. Thanks, David _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Tue Jul 2 03:05:59 2024 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2024 00:05:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SW5548PV manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sounds like an old SMUD unit used in the Sacramento Municipal Utility District in the mid 90's. I don't remember exactly what the maximum  input (would-be battery) voltage they allowed but basically hook the PV array to the battery terminals and software would mppt it for maximum power. I seem to remember that instead of a battery, it used a big can capacitor across the battery terminals in addition to the PV. Sam Vanderhoof  probably remembers better than anybody.  He's on the Facebook Solar Pioneers group hosted by Jeff Spies.  There might be someone on the Trace OutBack  users FB group that Dan mentioned but Sam would be a sure shot for sure.   Probably. Be careful, everybody. 😁 🌜boB🌛 On 7/1/2024 9:12 PM, David Coale via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Wrenchers, > > I am trying to get an old Trace SW5548PV inverter system up and running again. This inverter is gird tied only and does not have any batteries. While I am familiar with the battery based systems, I am not familiar with this system and the menus quite are different. > > Right now, the inverter will blink the line-tie LED, then try to connect, the LED stops blinking, but the inverter LED does not come on and no power is produced. I want to make sure I understand the settings and make sure they are correct before I decide to recommend a new complete system. > > I have searched on-line for this manual but have not been able to find the PV only version of this SW inverter. > > Thanks, > > David > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From william at millersolar.com Tue Jul 2 13:51:05 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2024 10:51:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need SMA SB1800U Message-ID: Friends: I have a low voltage PV array that is begging for a Sunny Boy 1800U. If anyone has one they are willing to part with, please contact me directly. Thanks, William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Tue Jul 2 14:17:57 2024 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2024 14:17:57 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need SMA SB1800U In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a used one. Not up to present grid certifications obviously. Contact me off list. or it might be a 2500. it's buried in my inverter museum. On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 2:03 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > > > I have a low voltage PV array that is begging for a Sunny Boy 1800U. If > anyone has one they are willing to part with, please contact me directly. > > > > Thanks, > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Tue Jul 2 20:00:41 2024 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2024 17:00:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Installer needed in Post Falls Idaho Message-ID: I have a customer that is looking for a solar installer in Post Fall, Idaho. If any of you are working in that area please let me know. Off list please. Thank you. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Thu Jul 4 14:32:33 2024 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2024 18:32:33 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anyone heard of Tesup? Message-ID: Hey all, I know well the old adage - "If it sounds to good to be true, then it probably is." I also know that I have seen numerous windmill scams. That said, I am doing some consulting for someone who wants to buy and install this Tesup windmill... Supposedly a 9 kW wind turbine for $999 https://tesup.com/us/products/tesup-horizontal-wind-turbines-for-homes My customer claims all the normal things... This company has been around for a very long time (so they claim), they have millions of happy customers (so they claim), they are from Europe, not Asia (as though that would make them trustworthy)... I know enough to be highly suspicious, and I won't be touching this unit myself either way, but I'm just curious if anyone knows anything directly about this specific one. I'll be advising this person not to get his hopes up if he does decide to try it out, and that I am suspicious, but if anyone has anything more specific, I'd love to hear about it so I can give better advice. Thanks, Kienan Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution LLC Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and consulting company) maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584(Cell) www.distribution.solar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Thu Jul 4 15:42:51 2024 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2024 12:42:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anyone heard of Tesup? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Probably should convince them go to with Tesup's VAWT offering instead. [image: Screenshot 2024-07-04 at 12.41.44 PM.jpg] Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 11:32 AM Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hey all, > > I know well the old adage - "If it sounds to good to be true, then it > probably is." I also know that I have seen numerous windmill scams. > > That said, I am doing some consulting for someone who wants to buy and > install this Tesup windmill... Supposedly a 9 kW wind turbine for $999 > > https://tesup.com/us/products/tesup-horizontal-wind-turbines-for-homes > > My customer claims all the normal things... This company has been around > for a very long time (so they claim), they have millions of happy customers > (so they claim), they are from Europe, not Asia (as though that would make > them trustworthy)... > > I know enough to be highly suspicious, and I won't be touching this unit > myself either way, but I'm just curious if anyone knows anything directly > about this specific one. I'll be advising this person not to get his hopes > up if he does decide to try it out, and that I am suspicious, but if anyone > has anything more specific, I'd love to hear about it so I can give better > advice. > > Thanks, > Kienan > > > > > > > > *Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution LLC Maxfield Solar LLC > (installation and consulting company) maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com > (801) 631-5584(Cell) > www.distribution.solar * > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screenshot 2024-07-04 at 12.41.44 PM.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 220557 bytes Desc: not available URL: From iesbatteries at gmail.com Thu Jul 4 15:47:04 2024 From: iesbatteries at gmail.com (Daryl DeJoy) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2024 15:47:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anyone heard of Tesup? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: IMHO any reputable wind gennie manufacturer should at least give a power curve in their specs. Produces 9k at what wind speed? On Thu, Jul 4, 2024, 3:44 PM Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Probably should convince them go to with Tesup's VAWT offering instead. > [image: Screenshot 2024-07-04 at 12.41.44 PM.jpg] > > Brian Mehalic > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 > National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member > (520) 204-6639 > > Solar Energy International > http://www.solarenergy.org > > > > On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 11:32 AM Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hey all, >> >> I know well the old adage - "If it sounds to good to be true, then it >> probably is." I also know that I have seen numerous windmill scams. >> >> That said, I am doing some consulting for someone who wants to buy and >> install this Tesup windmill... Supposedly a 9 kW wind turbine for $999 >> >> https://tesup.com/us/products/tesup-horizontal-wind-turbines-for-homes >> >> My customer claims all the normal things... This company has been around >> for a very long time (so they claim), they have millions of happy customers >> (so they claim), they are from Europe, not Asia (as though that would make >> them trustworthy)... >> >> I know enough to be highly suspicious, and I won't be touching this unit >> myself either way, but I'm just curious if anyone knows anything directly >> about this specific one. I'll be advising this person not to get his hopes >> up if he does decide to try it out, and that I am suspicious, but if anyone >> has anything more specific, I'd love to hear about it so I can give better >> advice. >> >> Thanks, >> Kienan >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution LLC Maxfield Solar LLC >> (installation and consulting company) maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com >> (801) 631-5584(Cell) >> www.distribution.solar * >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screenshot 2024-07-04 at 12.41.44 PM.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 220557 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Thu Jul 4 15:50:51 2024 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2024 15:50:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anyone heard of Tesup? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Look up Tesup on Amazon. 65% or purchasers consider their power claims a scam. There is no way a $1000 machine can generate up to 9kw of power. And a 9kw genny weight would buckle the metal pole stand it supposedly is compatible with. On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 2:33 PM Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hey all, > > I know well the old adage - "If it sounds to good to be true, then it > probably is." I also know that I have seen numerous windmill scams. > > That said, I am doing some consulting for someone who wants to buy and > install this Tesup windmill... Supposedly a 9 kW wind turbine for $999 > > https://tesup.com/us/products/tesup-horizontal-wind-turbines-for-homes > > My customer claims all the normal things... This company has been around > for a very long time (so they claim), they have millions of happy customers > (so they claim), they are from Europe, not Asia (as though that would make > them trustworthy)... > > I know enough to be highly suspicious, and I won't be touching this unit > myself either way, but I'm just curious if anyone knows anything directly > about this specific one. I'll be advising this person not to get his hopes > up if he does decide to try it out, and that I am suspicious, but if anyone > has anything more specific, I'd love to hear about it so I can give better > advice. > > Thanks, > Kienan > > > > > > > > *Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution LLC Maxfield Solar LLC > (installation and consulting company) maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com > (801) 631-5584(Cell) > www.distribution.solar * > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Jul 4 15:56:10 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2024 13:56:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anyone heard of Tesup? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <25d5a042-1981-46ed-9c81-07f884eca3ae@solarray.com> On a hot day, you could turn the ceiling fan on high, and the breeze would operate the turbine, thus zeroing out your energy use.  Talk about free energy! In the same vein, here's a solution to our transportation problems as well: Wind Power on a CAR #1 - Is it FREE? - YouTube Ray Walters Remote Solar On 7/4/2024 1:42 PM, Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches wrote: > Probably should convince them go to with Tesup's VAWT offering instead. > Screenshot 2024-07-04 at 12.41.44 PM.jpg > > Brian Mehalic > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 > National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member > (520) 204-6639 > > Solar Energy International > http://www.solarenergy.org > > > > On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 11:32 AM Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hey all, > > I know well the old adage - "If it sounds to good to be true, then > it probably is." I also know that I have seen numerous windmill > scams. > > That said, I am doing some consulting for someone who wants to buy > and install this Tesup windmill... Supposedly a 9 kW wind turbine > for $999 > > https://tesup.com/us/products/tesup-horizontal-wind-turbines-for-homes > > My customer claims all the normal things... This company has been > around for a very long time (so they claim), they have millions of > happy customers (so they claim), they are from Europe, not Asia > (as though that would make them trustworthy)... > > I know enough to be highly suspicious, and I won't be touching > this unit myself either way, but I'm just curious if anyone knows > anything directly about this specific one. I'll be advising this > person not to get his hopes up if he does decide to try it out, > and that I am suspicious, but if anyone has anything more > specific, I'd love to hear about it so I can give better advice. > > Thanks, > Kienan > > > > *Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution LLC > Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and consulting company) > maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com > (801) 631-5584(Cell) > www.distribution.solar * > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screenshot 2024-07-04 at 12.41.44 PM.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 220557 bytes Desc: not available URL: From roy at four-winds-energy.com Thu Jul 4 15:58:43 2024 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2024 15:58:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anyone heard of Tesup? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <633d00e4-9c19-4bde-a3ae-57a83c562bdb@four-winds-energy.com> With a 7.38 square foot swept area you can assume that they forgot the decimal point. At best, this is a 900 watt wind turbine, probably at 28 mph or higher. Looks like they are using the old Whisper 900 (h40) blade set as well so yeah, 900 watts. Install more solar instead! Roy Butler Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 607-324-9747 Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don’t. “The less people know, the more stubbornly they know it.” Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. On 7/4/2024 2:32 PM, Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hey all, > > I know well the old adage - "If it sounds to good to be true, then it > probably is." I also know that I have seen numerous windmill scams. > > That said, I am doing some consulting for someone who wants to buy and > install this Tesup windmill... Supposedly a 9 kW wind turbine for $999 > > https://tesup.com/us/products/tesup-horizontal-wind-turbines-for-homes > > My customer claims all the normal things... This company has been > around for a very long time (so they claim), they have millions of > happy customers (so they claim), they are from Europe, not Asia (as > though that would make them trustworthy)... > > I know enough to be highly suspicious, and I won't be touching this > unit myself either way, but I'm just curious if anyone knows anything > directly about this specific one. I'll be advising this person not to > get his hopes up if he does decide to try it out, and that I am > suspicious, but if anyone has anything more specific, I'd love to hear > about it so I can give better advice. > > Thanks, > Kienan > > > > *Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution LLC > Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and consulting company) > maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com > (801) 631-5584(Cell) > www.distribution.solar * > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Thu Jul 4 17:48:45 2024 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2024 15:48:45 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anyone heard of Tesup? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've replaced a few Tesup wind turbine "controllers" with real Xantrex/Morningstar diversion load controllers + dump loads for remote, off grid folks. Vastly undersized power electronics, heat sinks, and terminal blocks, a fire waiting to happen. The turbine guts are crudely made, some work, others fail quickly. Avoid! Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 12:33 PM Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hey all, > > I know well the old adage - "If it sounds to good to be true, then it > probably is." I also know that I have seen numerous windmill scams. > > That said, I am doing some consulting for someone who wants to buy and > install this Tesup windmill... Supposedly a 9 kW wind turbine for $999 > > https://tesup.com/us/products/tesup-horizontal-wind-turbines-for-homes > > My customer claims all the normal things... This company has been around > for a very long time (so they claim), they have millions of happy customers > (so they claim), they are from Europe, not Asia (as though that would make > them trustworthy)... > > I know enough to be highly suspicious, and I won't be touching this unit > myself either way, but I'm just curious if anyone knows anything directly > about this specific one. I'll be advising this person not to get his hopes > up if he does decide to try it out, and that I am suspicious, but if anyone > has anything more specific, I'd love to hear about it so I can give better > advice. > > Thanks, > Kienan > > > > > > > > *Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution LLC Maxfield Solar LLC > (installation and consulting company) maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com > (801) 631-5584(Cell) > www.distribution.solar * > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Thu Jul 4 19:30:55 2024 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2024 19:30:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anyone heard of Tesup? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003501dace6a$383566d0$a8a03470$@mindspring.com> Run Forest Run! From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2024 2:33 PM To: Jay via RE-wrenches Cc: Kienan Maxfield Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anyone heard of Tesup? Hey all, I know well the old adage - "If it sounds to good to be true, then it probably is." I also know that I have seen numerous windmill scams. That said, I am doing some consulting for someone who wants to buy and install this Tesup windmill... Supposedly a 9 kW wind turbine for $999 https://tesup.com/us/products/tesup-horizontal-wind-turbines-for-homes My customer claims all the normal things... This company has been around for a very long time (so they claim), they have millions of happy customers (so they claim), they are from Europe, not Asia (as though that would make them trustworthy)... I know enough to be highly suspicious, and I won't be touching this unit myself either way, but I'm just curious if anyone knows anything directly about this specific one. I'll be advising this person not to get his hopes up if he does decide to try it out, and that I am suspicious, but if anyone has anything more specific, I'd love to hear about it so I can give better advice. Thanks, Kienan Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution LLC Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and consulting company) maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584(Cell) www.distribution.solar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Jul 5 09:45:20 2024 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2024 13:45:20 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wind 102.1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <93E9E52F-447B-4071-A30A-581F7D7AE09B@solarwork.com> Wow these scams surface year after year. First -vertical axis wind gens are only half as efficient as a horizontal axis shaft wind gen due to the resistance of the half that is spinning against the wind( drag). Therefore vertical axis generator needs to be twice as efficient or receive significantly higher the wind. Second -the forces on vert axis lower bearings are ridiculous and will wear & age very rapidly. Third -the available wind at ground or even roof top level are gusty, unstable, & varying in speed which make the regulator (if there are any) struggle to engage the power on the without stalling the blades. Forth. - Having installed many wind gens over my early years has taught me many hard & fast rules 1: location, location, location just because you want a wind generator is your location appropriate. The higher your generator is the more power you can produce. Height matters big time. 2: Seasons - I get calls every spring for wind gens because spring is the windiest season in most locals. When I enquire they admit that the 3 other seasons are pretty still. 3 : Obstructions - you need to be a minimum of 25-30’ higher than any object (trees, buildings, etc)that will influence the wind in dominant wind directions or any direction. Also what will local zoning if any allow? 4 : Maintenance / service life : Just like our bodies, vehicles, houses, tools they will need servicing. This is a mechanical device who will service this installation? 5: Sound - go visit an installation typical of your situation in a Good wind speed. Listen & be critical, wind generator sounds are cyclic & continuous NOT like leaves or grasses which tend to be random sounds. 6: DONOT MOUNT A WIND GENERATOR ON A HOUSE! I did this and in a good blow at 30 mph the harmonics generated ( with factory approved supplied vibration isolation) make the house sound like it is suffering a really painful orgasm. DONT DO THIS! 7: Lightning protection : if it looks like a lightning rod guess what? It is a lightning rod! Please do not get me wrong ; I love wind generation but only in appropriate locations, correctly installed & at appropriate heights, with safe methods to lower for service, & where the sound will not cause issues with neighbor’s & family. Bad installations are only bad advertising. Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 On Jul 4, 2024, at 1:51 PM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches wrote:  Look up Tesup on Amazon. 65% or purchasers consider their power claims a scam. There is no way a $1000 machine can generate up to 9kw of power. And a 9kw genny weight would buckle the metal pole stand it supposedly is compatible with. On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 2:33 PM Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hey all, I know well the old adage - "If it sounds to good to be true, then it probably is." I also know that I have seen numerous windmill scams. That said, I am doing some consulting for someone who wants to buy and install this Tesup windmill... Supposedly a 9 kW wind turbine for $999 https://tesup.com/us/products/tesup-horizontal-wind-turbines-for-homes My customer claims all the normal things... This company has been around for a very long time (so they claim), they have millions of happy customers (so they claim), they are from Europe, not Asia (as though that would make them trustworthy)... I know enough to be highly suspicious, and I won't be touching this unit myself either way, but I'm just curious if anyone knows anything directly about this specific one. I'll be advising this person not to get his hopes up if he does decide to try it out, and that I am suspicious, but if anyone has anything more specific, I'd love to hear about it so I can give better advice. Thanks, Kienan Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution LLC Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and consulting company) maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584(Cell) www.distribution.solar _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!! dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Sat Jul 6 12:14:06 2024 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2024 12:14:06 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anyone heard of Tesup? In-Reply-To: <25d5a042-1981-46ed-9c81-07f884eca3ae@solarray.com> References: <25d5a042-1981-46ed-9c81-07f884eca3ae@solarray.com> Message-ID: <335e4bae-2e27-4fa0-be04-c01049ad18a1@entech-engineering.com> When I was maybe 10, I drew a picture of a car with little windmills on it and told my dad, (MS nuclear/mineral engineer), that I had created basically a self perpetuating vehicle. (I had no idea what that actually was).  My dad was very nice and smiled at me.  (At least he didn't laugh). I've written off VAWT, so if something has changed, I'd like to know. This seems not to be hopeful. Chris On 7/4/2024 3:56 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > > On a hot day, you could turn the ceiling fan on high, and the breeze > would operate the turbine, thus zeroing out your energy use.  Talk > about free energy! > > In the same vein, here's a solution to our transportation problems as > well: > > Wind Power on a CAR #1 - Is it FREE? - YouTube > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > On 7/4/2024 1:42 PM, Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches wrote: >> Probably should convince them go to with Tesup's VAWT offering instead. >> Screenshot 2024-07-04 at 12.41.44 PM.jpg >> >> Brian Mehalic >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 >> National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member >> (520) 204-6639 >> >> Solar Energy International >> http://www.solarenergy.org >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 11:32 AM Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> Hey all, >> >> I know well the old adage - "If it sounds to good to be true, >> then it probably is." I also know that I have seen numerous >> windmill scams. >> >> That said, I am doing some consulting for someone who wants to >> buy and install this Tesup windmill... Supposedly a 9 kW wind >> turbine for $999 >> >> https://tesup.com/us/products/tesup-horizontal-wind-turbines-for-homes >> >> My customer claims all the normal things... This company has been >> around for a very long time (so they claim), they have millions >> of happy customers (so they claim), they are from Europe, not >> Asia (as though that would make them trustworthy)... >> >> I know enough to be highly suspicious, and I won't be touching >> this unit myself either way, but I'm just curious if anyone knows >> anything directly about this specific one. I'll be advising this >> person not to get his hopes up if he does decide to try it out, >> and that I am suspicious, but if anyone has anything more >> specific, I'd love to hear about it so I can give better advice. >> >> Thanks, >> Kienan >> >> >> >> *Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution LLC >> Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and consulting company) >> maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com >> (801) 631-5584(Cell) >> www.distribution.solar * >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >> try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel           ENTECH Engineering Inc.    PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                   401-477-5773 EE Logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screenshot 2024-07-04 at 12.41.44 PM.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 220557 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/vcard Size: 203 bytes Desc: not available URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Sat Jul 6 13:01:43 2024 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2024 13:01:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anyone heard of Tesup? In-Reply-To: <335e4bae-2e27-4fa0-be04-c01049ad18a1@entech-engineering.com> References: <25d5a042-1981-46ed-9c81-07f884eca3ae@solarray.com> <335e4bae-2e27-4fa0-be04-c01049ad18a1@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: My simple answer is to ask the company for just one customer name (not a million) with one still working after a year, with contact information to confirm that the product works. Usually that ends the conversation. Just one customer or even just a video with sound and a meter showing output.would be a great step forward. I paid $999 for a "1kw" machine that arrived in good condition with nice blades and well built but the 30" long blades were a dead giveaway that I would not produce anywhere near 1000 watts. Had a nice little controller and dumpload but the best power I saw was 550 watts in a gale. No need for a dump load. Less than a year later it blew to pieces with parts scattered all over my pasture.For nine kw output you would need 10' to 15;+ blades. and the unit would be super heavy.. John Blittersdorf CV Wind. On Sat, Jul 6, 2024 at 12:14 PM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > When I was maybe 10, I drew a picture of a car with little windmills on it > and told my dad, (MS nuclear/mineral engineer), that I had created > basically a self perpetuating vehicle. (I had no idea what that actually > was). My dad was very nice and smiled at me. (At least he didn't laugh). > > I've written off VAWT, so if something has changed, I'd like to know. This > seems not to be hopeful. > > Chris > > > On 7/4/2024 3:56 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > > On a hot day, you could turn the ceiling fan on high, and the breeze would > operate the turbine, thus zeroing out your energy use. Talk about free > energy! > > In the same vein, here's a solution to our transportation problems as well: > > [image: Wind Power on a CAR #1 - Is it FREE? - YouTube] > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > On 7/4/2024 1:42 PM, Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Probably should convince them go to with Tesup's VAWT offering instead. > [image: Screenshot 2024-07-04 at 12.41.44 PM.jpg] > > Brian Mehalic > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 > National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member > (520) 204-6639 > > Solar Energy International > http://www.solarenergy.org > > > > On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 11:32 AM Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hey all, >> >> I know well the old adage - "If it sounds to good to be true, then it >> probably is." I also know that I have seen numerous windmill scams. >> >> That said, I am doing some consulting for someone who wants to buy and >> install this Tesup windmill... Supposedly a 9 kW wind turbine for $999 >> >> https://tesup.com/us/products/tesup-horizontal-wind-turbines-for-homes >> >> My customer claims all the normal things... This company has been around >> for a very long time (so they claim), they have millions of happy customers >> (so they claim), they are from Europe, not Asia (as though that would make >> them trustworthy)... >> >> I know enough to be highly suspicious, and I won't be touching this unit >> myself either way, but I'm just curious if anyone knows anything directly >> about this specific one. I'll be advising this person not to get his hopes >> up if he does decide to try it out, and that I am suspicious, but if anyone >> has anything more specific, I'd love to hear about it so I can give better >> advice. >> >> Thanks, >> Kienan >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution LLC Maxfield Solar LLC >> (installation and consulting company) maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com >> (801) 631-5584(Cell) >> www.distribution.solar * >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > Christopher Warfel > ENTECH Engineering Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-477-5773 > [image: EE Logo] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screenshot 2024-07-04 at 12.41.44 PM.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 220557 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Sat Jul 6 13:15:29 2024 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2024 13:15:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anyone heard of Tesup? In-Reply-To: References: <25d5a042-1981-46ed-9c81-07f884eca3ae@solarray.com> <335e4bae-2e27-4fa0-be04-c01049ad18a1@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: And all of their videos show, unless I'm missing something, animations, not an actual installed machine. On Sat, Jul 6, 2024 at 1:02 PM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > My simple answer is to ask the company for just one customer name (not a > million) with one still working after a year, with contact information to > confirm that the product works. Usually that ends the conversation. Just > one customer or even just a video with sound and a meter showing > output.would be a great step forward. I paid $999 for a "1kw" machine that > arrived in good condition with nice blades and well built but the 30" long > blades were a dead giveaway that I would not produce anywhere near 1000 > watts. Had a nice little controller and dumpload but the best power I saw > was 550 watts in a gale. No need for a dump load. Less than a year later > it blew to pieces with parts scattered all over my pasture.For nine kw > output you would need 10' to 15;+ blades. and the unit would be super > heavy.. > > John Blittersdorf > CV Wind. > > On Sat, Jul 6, 2024 at 12:14 PM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> When I was maybe 10, I drew a picture of a car with little windmills on >> it and told my dad, (MS nuclear/mineral engineer), that I had created >> basically a self perpetuating vehicle. (I had no idea what that actually >> was). My dad was very nice and smiled at me. (At least he didn't laugh). >> >> I've written off VAWT, so if something has changed, I'd like to know. >> This seems not to be hopeful. >> >> Chris >> >> >> On 7/4/2024 3:56 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> On a hot day, you could turn the ceiling fan on high, and the breeze >> would operate the turbine, thus zeroing out your energy use. Talk about >> free energy! >> >> In the same vein, here's a solution to our transportation problems as >> well: >> >> [image: Wind Power on a CAR #1 - Is it FREE? - YouTube] >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> On 7/4/2024 1:42 PM, Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Probably should convince them go to with Tesup's VAWT offering instead. >> [image: Screenshot 2024-07-04 at 12.41.44 PM.jpg] >> >> Brian Mehalic >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 >> National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member >> (520) 204-6639 >> >> Solar Energy International >> http://www.solarenergy.org >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 11:32 AM Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hey all, >>> >>> I know well the old adage - "If it sounds to good to be true, then it >>> probably is." I also know that I have seen numerous windmill scams. >>> >>> That said, I am doing some consulting for someone who wants to buy and >>> install this Tesup windmill... Supposedly a 9 kW wind turbine for $999 >>> >>> https://tesup.com/us/products/tesup-horizontal-wind-turbines-for-homes >>> >>> My customer claims all the normal things... This company has been around >>> for a very long time (so they claim), they have millions of happy customers >>> (so they claim), they are from Europe, not Asia (as though that would make >>> them trustworthy)... >>> >>> I know enough to be highly suspicious, and I won't be touching this unit >>> myself either way, but I'm just curious if anyone knows anything directly >>> about this specific one. I'll be advising this person not to get his hopes >>> up if he does decide to try it out, and that I am suspicious, but if anyone >>> has anything more specific, I'd love to hear about it so I can give better >>> advice. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Kienan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution LLC Maxfield Solar LLC >>> (installation and consulting company) maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com >>> (801) 631-5584(Cell) >>> www.distribution.solar * >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- >> Christopher Warfel >> ENTECH Engineering Inc. >> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >> 401-477-5773 >> [image: EE Logo] >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screenshot 2024-07-04 at 12.41.44 PM.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 220557 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Mon Jul 8 15:33:59 2024 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2024 13:33:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for Mitsubishi modules Message-ID: <009e01dad16d$c83703a0$58a50ae0$@OasisMontana.com> Hi folks: Does anyone happen to have three of the PV-MLE265HD modules available? Please feel free to contact me off list. Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Tue Jul 9 09:35:06 2024 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (David Palumbo) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2024 13:35:06 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC fan for greenhouse Message-ID: Wrenchters, I have a friend looking for a DC fan for his 20' x 40' greenhouse here in northern Vermont. Recommendations please. Thanks, Dave Palumbo Hyde Park, VT -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Tue Jul 9 09:43:52 2024 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2024 09:43:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC fan for greenhouse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We had used some Snap-Fans many many years ago on some greenhouse applications. Looks like they are still in business and their product line has expanded so that says something…. http://www.snap-fan.com/ Adam Katzman (he/him) Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator www.AutonomousEnergies.com (518) 567-1468 On Tue, Jul 9, 2024 at 9:36 AM David Palumbo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenchters, > > I have a friend looking for a DC fan for his 20' x 40' greenhouse here in > northern Vermont. > > Recommendations please. > > Thanks, > > Dave Palumbo > Hyde Park, VT > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solareagle at solareagle.com Tue Jul 9 13:12:36 2024 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (solareagle at solareagle.com) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2024 10:12:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC fan for greenhouse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9B9066CA-6069-43CA-8AEA-64A5222D11C2@solareagle.com> I’ve used Snap Fans as well, they come in various configurations, both AC & DC. Good quality for sure but not cheap. Ron Young earthRight Solar > On Jul 9, 2024, at 6:43 AM, AE Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > We had used some Snap-Fans many many years ago on some greenhouse applications. Looks like they are still in business and their product line has expanded so that says something…. > http://www.snap-fan.com/ > > > Adam Katzman (he/him) > Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator > www.AutonomousEnergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > > > On Tue, Jul 9, 2024 at 9:36 AM David Palumbo via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Wrenchters, >> >> I have a friend looking for a DC fan for his 20' x 40' greenhouse here in northern Vermont. >> >> Recommendations please. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Dave Palumbo >> Hyde Park, VT >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bryan at pv-cables.com Tue Jul 9 13:19:39 2024 From: bryan at pv-cables.com (Bryan Norkunas) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2024 17:19:39 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC fan for greenhouse In-Reply-To: <9B9066CA-6069-43CA-8AEA-64A5222D11C2@solareagle.com> References: <9B9066CA-6069-43CA-8AEA-64A5222D11C2@solareagle.com> Message-ID: I have also used SnapFans and they are great quailty. SnapFan was sold a year or so ago, the new owners I think are based in AZ Bryan Norkunas PV-Cables Inc. 989 Milton Ave Ste 1D Ferndale CA 95536 (707) 923-3000 office www.pv-cables.com [cid:33b5ed1a-0116-44eb-a19d-84b987c7fa9c] [cid:44167ab9-5d22-47f1-8284-c0a9f4db4fb5] Please print only if necessary. NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by replying to this email, and destroy all copies of the original message. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of solareagle--- via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, July 9, 2024 10:12 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: solareagle at solareagle.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] DC fan for greenhouse I’ve used Snap Fans as well, they come in various configurations, both AC & DC. Good quality for sure but not cheap. Ron Young earthRight Solar On Jul 9, 2024, at 6:43 AM, AE Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: We had used some Snap-Fans many many years ago on some greenhouse applications. Looks like they are still in business and their product line has expanded so that says something…. http://www.snap-fan.com/ Adam Katzman (he/him) Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator www.AutonomousEnergies.com (518) 567-1468 On Tue, Jul 9, 2024 at 9:36 AM David Palumbo via RE-wrenches > wrote: Wrenchters, I have a friend looking for a DC fan for his 20' x 40' greenhouse here in northern Vermont. Recommendations please. Thanks, Dave Palumbo Hyde Park, VT _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-e2ydems4.png Type: image/png Size: 78625 bytes Desc: Outlook-e2ydems4.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-5aeknfkk.png Type: image/png Size: 2978 bytes Desc: Outlook-5aeknfkk.png URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Jul 9 17:28:34 2024 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2024 14:28:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC fan for greenhouse In-Reply-To: <9B9066CA-6069-43CA-8AEA-64A5222D11C2@solareagle.com> References: <9B9066CA-6069-43CA-8AEA-64A5222D11C2@solareagle.com> Message-ID: Wrenches, Way back when l used 48" belt drive barn fans and used 36 volt golf cart motors and over a kw in pv modules, no batteries. The motors were 2nd hand and as l recall cheap. We played around with pully sizes vs amp load a RPM to keep the pv load down. Fun times On Tue, Jul 9, 2024, 10:13 AM solareagle--- via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I’ve used Snap Fans as well, they come in various configurations, both AC > & DC. Good quality for sure but not cheap. > > Ron Young > earthRight Solar > > > On Jul 9, 2024, at 6:43 AM, AE Solar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > We had used some Snap-Fans many many years ago on some greenhouse > applications. Looks like they are still in business and their product line > has expanded so that says something…. > http://www.snap-fan.com/ > > > Adam Katzman (he/him) > Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator > www.AutonomousEnergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > > > On Tue, Jul 9, 2024 at 9:36 AM David Palumbo via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Wrenchters, >> >> I have a friend looking for a DC fan for his 20' x 40' greenhouse here in >> northern Vermont. >> >> Recommendations please. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Dave Palumbo >> Hyde Park, VT >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Jul 10 17:41:44 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2024 15:41:44 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] S Flex Posts? Message-ID: <05ab3f86-ebaf-45a2-885f-d24e90aa3dcf@solarray.com> Greetings Wrenches: I have an old S Flex ground mount rack, that I'd like to increase the tilt on, from 30 deg to 45 deg.  The original installer is long gone, and this is one of the reasons why: they threw grid tie designs at off grid systems.  Our latitude is 44 deg here, and as expected, the 30 deg tilt performs poorly in the Winter.   I actually go to 55 deg with pole mounts. My problem is that S Flex is no longer here in Colorado, and I think they're no longer even in the USA.   I need to get some of their proprietary Aluminum racking legs, and splices if available.  Does anyone have a line on S Flex ground mount parts? I've included a pic, if that jogs anyone's memory. Thanks, Ray Walters Remote Solar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: lrfbPs6a8t6U0jQ6.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1197687 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Wed Jul 10 18:20:03 2024 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2024 18:20:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ideas and help please. Solar Edge nightmare Message-ID: <000d01dad317$50504f80$f0f0ee80$@mindspring.com> Hi my fellow wrenchers, need some help with an older SolarEdge Storedge system. System has 14 kw solar, two 7.6 Storedge inverters and each inverter has one LG RESU 10 battery. System was installed 6 to 7 years ago and has worked great until the LG's started acting up. LG replaced them and in the interim one of the 7.6's went down. SE replaced it. Everything has been up and running for 12 months, SE did all the required firmware updates, batteries and inverters when we finished replacing batteries and inverter. So, the problem is the system comes out of program every 3 to 5 days and luckily my customer knows how to reengage it and reprogram the system ( total consumption ). We have been calling SE Support for months and it hit a peak two weeks ago. They are telling us we need shielded 600Volt CAT5 twisted pair wire for all the comms. We have shielded cat non twisted pair, the wire they had us install 6 years ago ( which has worked just fine. When I asked the tech do I use one or both of a twisted pair he said just one. I asked what is the difference from the wire we are using if you are asking us to use just one of each twisted pair. They could not answer and when asked to get a more senior tech they said until we had shielded cat 5 twisted pair installed we could no longer speak with them. I found some 600 volt, shielded cat 5 twisted pair and installed one section, from one inverter to it battery. Took forever to separate the twisted pair, strip one and insert it. System is now Buggier than it was. The tech could not explain why the system has worked well for 6 years with the shielded single wire and after replacing a inverter and the batteries it is now throwing the programing, just demanded the 600 volt, cat 5 shielded wire. So folks, my apologies for rambling by both my customer and I are at our wits end. We have reached out to the head of tech support but only crickets. Any and all help or ideas appreciated. Thx Peter Giroux American Solar Norcross Ga 678 525 0468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Jul 10 18:42:44 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2024 15:42:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ideas and help please. Solar Edge nightmare In-Reply-To: <000d01dad317$50504f80$f0f0ee80$@mindspring.com> References: <000d01dad317$50504f80$f0f0ee80$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <69cbed565754e5f436b09707466a3172@sti.net> You are talking about the LG RESU10 H right? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-07-10 3:20 pm, Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi my fellow wrenchers, need some help with an older SolarEdge Storedge > system. System has 14 kw solar, two 7.6 Storedge inverters and each > inverter has one LG RESU 10 battery. System was installed 6 to 7 years > ago and has worked great until the LG's started acting up. LG replaced > them and in the interim one of the 7.6's went down. SE replaced it. > Everything has been up and running for 12 months, SE did all the > required firmware updates, batteries and inverters when we finished > replacing batteries and inverter. > > So, the problem is the system comes out of program every 3 to 5 days > and luckily my customer knows how to reengage it and reprogram the > system ( total consumption ). We have been calling SE Support for > months and it hit a peak two weeks ago. They are telling us we need > shielded 600Volt CAT5 twisted pair wire for all the comms. We have > shielded cat non twisted pair, the wire they had us install 6 years ago > ( which has worked just fine. When I asked the tech do I use one or > both of a twisted pair he said just one. I asked what is the difference > from the wire we are using if you are asking us to use just one of each > twisted pair. They could not answer and when asked to get a more senior > tech they said until we had shielded cat 5 twisted pair installed we > could no longer speak with them. > > I found some 600 volt, shielded cat 5 twisted pair and installed one > section, from one inverter to it battery. Took forever to separate the > twisted pair, strip one and insert it. System is now Buggier than it > was. > > The tech could not explain why the system has worked well for 6 years > with the shielded single wire and after replacing a inverter and the > batteries it is now throwing the programing, just demanded the 600 > volt, cat 5 shielded wire. > > So folks, my apologies for rambling by both my customer and I are at > our wits end. We have reached out to the head of tech support but only > crickets. Any and all help or ideas appreciated. > > Thx > > Peter Giroux > > American Solar > > Norcross Ga > > 678 525 0468 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Wed Jul 10 19:25:12 2024 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2024 19:25:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ideas and help please. Solar Edge nightmare In-Reply-To: <69cbed565754e5f436b09707466a3172@sti.net> References: <000d01dad317$50504f80$f0f0ee80$@mindspring.com> <69cbed565754e5f436b09707466a3172@sti.net> Message-ID: <002601dad320$6ac96a50$405c3ef0$@mindspring.com> Yes sir From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2024 6:43 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ideas and help please. Solar Edge nightmare You are talking about the LG RESU10 H right? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" https://offgridsolar1.com/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-07-10 3:20 pm, Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches wrote: Hi my fellow wrenchers, need some help with an older SolarEdge Storedge system. System has 14 kw solar, two 7.6 Storedge inverters and each inverter has one LG RESU 10 battery. System was installed 6 to 7 years ago and has worked great until the LG’s started acting up. LG replaced them and in the interim one of the 7.6’s went down. SE replaced it. Everything has been up and running for 12 months, SE did all the required firmware updates, batteries and inverters when we finished replacing batteries and inverter. So, the problem is the system comes out of program every 3 to 5 days and luckily my customer knows how to reengage it and reprogram the system ( total consumption ). We have been calling SE Support for months and it hit a peak two weeks ago. They are telling us we need shielded 600Volt CAT5 twisted pair wire for all the comms. We have shielded cat non twisted pair, the wire they had us install 6 years ago ( which has worked just fine. When I asked the tech do I use one or both of a twisted pair he said just one. I asked what is the difference from the wire we are using if you are asking us to use just one of each twisted pair. They could not answer and when asked to get a more senior tech they said until we had shielded cat 5 twisted pair installed we could no longer speak with them. I found some 600 volt, shielded cat 5 twisted pair and installed one section, from one inverter to it battery. Took forever to separate the twisted pair, strip one and insert it. System is now Buggier than it was. The tech could not explain why the system has worked well for 6 years with the shielded single wire and after replacing a inverter and the batteries it is now throwing the programing, just demanded the 600 volt, cat 5 shielded wire. So folks, my apologies for rambling by both my customer and I are at our wits end. We have reached out to the head of tech support but only crickets. Any and all help or ideas appreciated. Thx Peter Giroux American Solar Norcross Ga 678 525 0468 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tom.mccalmont at pairedpower.com Wed Jul 10 20:31:17 2024 From: tom.mccalmont at pairedpower.com (Tom McCalmont) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2024 17:31:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ideas and help please. Solar Edge nightmare In-Reply-To: <000d01dad317$50504f80$f0f0ee80$@mindspring.com> References: <000d01dad317$50504f80$f0f0ee80$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Peter, I had a similar situation with my own personal installation — SolarEdge 7.6 plus RESU-10H. Replaced the battery, which worked for a minute. Replaced the inverter, which also worked for a minute. Replaced the battery a second time. Replaced the SolarEdge a second time. Finally, everything worked. It was the first replaced inverter that was at fault, although I never got SE to admit it. When it arrived, the box was kinda beat up, and the inverter looked used. I suspect it had come back from another customer and SE just shipped it back out again to someone else (me). The second inverter was a new one and worked correctly. If you can get someone to answer the phone, try to get SE to replace the inverter. The chances that your problems are because of an unshielded CAT 5 cable are between zero and none. Hope that helps. Tom McCalmont CEO, Paired Power pairedpower.com | LinkedIn (650) 701-7247 > On Jul 10, 2024, at 3:20 PM, Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi my fellow wrenchers, need some help with an older SolarEdge Storedge system. System has 14 kw solar, two 7.6 Storedge inverters and each inverter has one LG RESU 10 battery. System was installed 6 to 7 years ago and has worked great until the LG’s started acting up. LG replaced them and in the interim one of the 7.6’s went down. SE replaced it. Everything has been up and running for 12 months, SE did all the required firmware updates, batteries and inverters when we finished replacing batteries and inverter. > > So, the problem is the system comes out of program every 3 to 5 days and luckily my customer knows how to reengage it and reprogram the system ( total consumption ). We have been calling SE Support for months and it hit a peak two weeks ago. They are telling us we need shielded 600Volt CAT5 twisted pair wire for all the comms. We have shielded cat non twisted pair, the wire they had us install 6 years ago ( which has worked just fine. When I asked the tech do I use one or both of a twisted pair he said just one. I asked what is the difference from the wire we are using if you are asking us to use just one of each twisted pair. They could not answer and when asked to get a more senior tech they said until we had shielded cat 5 twisted pair installed we could no longer speak with them. > > I found some 600 volt, shielded cat 5 twisted pair and installed one section, from one inverter to it battery. Took forever to separate the twisted pair, strip one and insert it. System is now Buggier than it was. > > The tech could not explain why the system has worked well for 6 years with the shielded single wire and after replacing a inverter and the batteries it is now throwing the programing, just demanded the 600 volt, cat 5 shielded wire. > > So folks, my apologies for rambling by both my customer and I are at our wits end. We have reached out to the head of tech support but only crickets. Any and all help or ideas appreciated. > > Thx > Peter Giroux > American Solar > Norcross Ga > 678 525 0468 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Jul 11 08:55:35 2024 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2024 12:55:35 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC fan for greenhouse In-Reply-To: References: <9B9066CA-6069-43CA-8AEA-64A5222D11C2@solareagle.com> Message-ID: We have 120vac Snap fan in use for green house heat exhaust for 6+ years very reliable a bit noisy when the blades get dusty (green house/chicken house) very low power consumption. We also have a Westinghouse SS ceiling fan in the greenhouse that has 4 speeds & remote operation - made for a really easy install. _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Bryan Norkunas via RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] DC fan for greenhouse Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2024 17:19:39 +0000 Size: 135509 URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Thu Jul 11 09:29:36 2024 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2024 08:29:36 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ideas and help please. Solar Edge nightmare In-Reply-To: <000d01dad317$50504f80$f0f0ee80$@mindspring.com> References: <000d01dad317$50504f80$f0f0ee80$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <06b101dad396$600275a0$200760e0$@solarcentex.com> The "oh, you need a twisted pair and we can't help you right now until you change it" is the new spin on "send us pics so we can grade your work before we help you even though your inverter worked for years." I feel like we've been back and forth on this twisted pair. We had one instance where tech spt insisted on swapping something out and then another tech on another visit said what his predecessor insisted on was not acceptable. I couldn't find a StorEdge install manual in the SE site (I have one in my own home and wanted to read exactly what it said) but I do carry a printed copy of the Application Note for connecting the EnergyHub to the BUI. It says "SolarEdge recommends that B and A are a twisted pair for this installation to work correctly." Yes, it says "recommends." Not shall or must. So from years of all the back and forths and inconsistencies, I've learned that on the RS-485 connections, we should/must have the B and A be from same twisted pair. Now.does it need to be shielded? This was big point of debate for a period with SE. Regular Cat-5 cable wasn't shielded. I bought a roll of shielded 300-V rated (couldn't find 600v) shieled cable with twisted pairs and you guessed it.some tech said this was not acceptable. The expensive roll collects dust in the shop. So I tell you this story not to give you an answer (other than A and B should be twisted pair) but to say you're not alone on this frustration. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2024 5:20 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Cc: pgiroux at mindspring.com Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ideas and help please. Solar Edge nightmare Hi my fellow wrenchers, need some help with an older SolarEdge Storedge system. System has 14 kw solar, two 7.6 Storedge inverters and each inverter has one LG RESU 10 battery. System was installed 6 to 7 years ago and has worked great until the LG's started acting up. LG replaced them and in the interim one of the 7.6's went down. SE replaced it. Everything has been up and running for 12 months, SE did all the required firmware updates, batteries and inverters when we finished replacing batteries and inverter. So, the problem is the system comes out of program every 3 to 5 days and luckily my customer knows how to reengage it and reprogram the system ( total consumption ). We have been calling SE Support for months and it hit a peak two weeks ago. They are telling us we need shielded 600Volt CAT5 twisted pair wire for all the comms. We have shielded cat non twisted pair, the wire they had us install 6 years ago ( which has worked just fine. When I asked the tech do I use one or both of a twisted pair he said just one. I asked what is the difference from the wire we are using if you are asking us to use just one of each twisted pair. They could not answer and when asked to get a more senior tech they said until we had shielded cat 5 twisted pair installed we could no longer speak with them. I found some 600 volt, shielded cat 5 twisted pair and installed one section, from one inverter to it battery. Took forever to separate the twisted pair, strip one and insert it. System is now Buggier than it was. The tech could not explain why the system has worked well for 6 years with the shielded single wire and after replacing a inverter and the batteries it is now throwing the programing, just demanded the 600 volt, cat 5 shielded wire. So folks, my apologies for rambling by both my customer and I are at our wits end. We have reached out to the head of tech support but only crickets. Any and all help or ideas appreciated. Thx Peter Giroux American Solar Norcross Ga 678 525 0468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 136365 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jul 11 13:05:40 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2024 11:05:40 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] VFD drives In-Reply-To: <06b101dad396$600275a0$200760e0$@solarcentex.com> References: <000d01dad317$50504f80$f0f0ee80$@mindspring.com> <06b101dad396$600275a0$200760e0$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: <38405770-9B4A-427C-A8CB-20D316FAFB22@gmail.com> HI All, I’m being asked to comment about running a 10hp 3 phase well centrifugal pump off of a 30kw single phase generator with a VFD drive. This well pump is located in a tank for fire fighting applications, so its not down a deep well meaning almost no head pressure. And the start time can be quite slow as its not supplying a house/pressure tank. I”m not an expert on VFD drives, but I figure many of you are. My question, based on the question from the engineer is: 1. is there any issue with running a VFD off of a good quality 30kw brand new Kohler turbo propane generator? The engineer seems to think there is but he won’t say why. i can’t think of any reason at all? This generator is only running this one load, the well pump. jay From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Thu Jul 11 13:11:49 2024 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2024 10:11:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] VFD drives In-Reply-To: <38405770-9B4A-427C-A8CB-20D316FAFB22@gmail.com> References: <000d01dad317$50504f80$f0f0ee80$@mindspring.com> <06b101dad396$600275a0$200760e0$@solarcentex.com> <38405770-9B4A-427C-A8CB-20D316FAFB22@gmail.com> Message-ID: I’ve years of experience running vfds on generator power. No issues. Personally, I run numerous old cast iron woodworking machines that all have 5 and 10hp 3p motors with VFDs from a 15kw Kubota open frame generator. 15 second ramp up time. And my generator is single phase. On Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at 10:06 AM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > HI All, > > I’m being asked to comment about running a 10hp 3 phase well centrifugal > pump off of a 30kw single phase generator with a VFD drive. > This well pump is located in a tank for fire fighting applications, so its > not down a deep well meaning almost no head pressure. And the start time > can be quite slow as its not supplying a house/pressure tank. > > > I”m not an expert on VFD drives, but I figure many of you are. > > My question, based on the question from the engineer is: > > 1. is there any issue with running a VFD off of a good quality 30kw brand > new Kohler turbo propane generator? > The engineer seems to think there is but he won’t say why. > > i can’t think of any reason at all? > > This generator is only running this one load, the well pump. > > jay > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jul 11 13:18:10 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2024 11:18:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] VFD drives In-Reply-To: References: <000d01dad317$50504f80$f0f0ee80$@mindspring.com> <06b101dad396$600275a0$200760e0$@solarcentex.com> <38405770-9B4A-427C-A8CB-20D316FAFB22@gmail.com> Message-ID: <290FD289-29E1-48D3-85D6-01388D22EC2E@gmail.com> Thanks Michael, Thats what I wanted to confirm. For some reason the engineer on this project is in way over his head. OK back to my client jay > On Jul 11, 2024, at 11:11 AM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I’ve years of experience running vfds on generator power. No issues. Personally, I run numerous old cast iron woodworking machines that all have 5 and 10hp 3p motors with VFDs from a 15kw Kubota open frame generator. 15 second ramp up time. And my generator is single phase. > > On Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at 10:06 AM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > HI All, > > I’m being asked to comment about running a 10hp 3 phase well centrifugal pump off of a 30kw single phase generator with a VFD drive. > This well pump is located in a tank for fire fighting applications, so its not down a deep well meaning almost no head pressure. And the start time can be quite slow as its not supplying a house/pressure tank. > > > I”m not an expert on VFD drives, but I figure many of you are. > > My question, based on the question from the engineer is: > > 1. is there any issue with running a VFD off of a good quality 30kw brand new Kohler turbo propane generator? > The engineer seems to think there is but he won’t say why. > > i can’t think of any reason at all? > > This generator is only running this one load, the well pump. > > jay > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > Morningstar Electric Inc > PO Box 1494 > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > 530-921-0560 > CSLB 1116835 > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Thu Jul 11 13:22:53 2024 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jarvis) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2024 12:22:53 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] VFD drives In-Reply-To: <38405770-9B4A-427C-A8CB-20D316FAFB22@gmail.com> References: <000d01dad317$50504f80$f0f0ee80$@mindspring.com> <06b101dad396$600275a0$200760e0$@solarcentex.com> <38405770-9B4A-427C-A8CB-20D316FAFB22@gmail.com> Message-ID: There should be no issues. My rule of thumb is very hard starting 15 horsepower three phase motor will start and run with a quality 30 kilowatt three-phase generator. That's across the line starting with massive current. You can program your VFD such that there is no massive surge and so a 10 horsepower on a 30 kilowatt will be absolutely no problem. -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 (Sent from my phone. My apologies for spelling errors and brevity.) On Thu, Jul 11, 2024, 12:07 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > HI All, > > I’m being asked to comment about running a 10hp 3 phase well centrifugal > pump off of a 30kw single phase generator with a VFD drive. > This well pump is located in a tank for fire fighting applications, so its > not down a deep well meaning almost no head pressure. And the start time > can be quite slow as its not supplying a house/pressure tank. > > > I”m not an expert on VFD drives, but I figure many of you are. > > My question, based on the question from the engineer is: > > 1. is there any issue with running a VFD off of a good quality 30kw brand > new Kohler turbo propane generator? > The engineer seems to think there is but he won’t say why. > > i can’t think of any reason at all? > > This generator is only running this one load, the well pump. > > jay > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jul 11 13:25:43 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2024 11:25:43 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] VFD drives In-Reply-To: References: <000d01dad317$50504f80$f0f0ee80$@mindspring.com> <06b101dad396$600275a0$200760e0$@solarcentex.com> <38405770-9B4A-427C-A8CB-20D316FAFB22@gmail.com> Message-ID: <427584CB-4343-4B4C-9C7F-32841D146815@gmail.com> Does anyone have even an crazy idea of why this engineer would say that VFD drives don’t like generators? Besides the obvious, IE he doesn’t know what he’s talking about? thanks everyone jay > On Jul 11, 2024, at 11:22 AM, James Jarvis wrote: > > There should be no issues. My rule of thumb is very hard starting 15 horsepower three phase motor will start and run with a quality 30 kilowatt three-phase generator. That's across the line starting with massive current. You can program your VFD such that there is no massive surge and so a 10 horsepower on a 30 kilowatt will be absolutely no problem. > > -James Jefferson Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > +1-507-454-2727 > > (Sent from my phone. My apologies for spelling errors and brevity.) > > On Thu, Jul 11, 2024, 12:07 PM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > HI All, > > I’m being asked to comment about running a 10hp 3 phase well centrifugal pump off of a 30kw single phase generator with a VFD drive. > This well pump is located in a tank for fire fighting applications, so its not down a deep well meaning almost no head pressure. And the start time can be quite slow as its not supplying a house/pressure tank. > > > I”m not an expert on VFD drives, but I figure many of you are. > > My question, based on the question from the engineer is: > > 1. is there any issue with running a VFD off of a good quality 30kw brand new Kohler turbo propane generator? > The engineer seems to think there is but he won’t say why. > > i can’t think of any reason at all? > > This generator is only running this one load, the well pump. > > jay > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at getpimby.com Thu Jul 11 16:15:59 2024 From: matt at getpimby.com (Matt Sherald) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2024 16:15:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grundfos SQFlex Pump Repair Message-ID: Hello All, I just replaced a customer's Grundfos 6-SQF-2. It had stopped pushing water to their upper cistern. A new pump solved the customer's problem, but I am curious if anyone has had luck repairing a SQFlex pump or (better yet!!) knows of a service center that could refurb a pump.? The pump I removed did move a little water once I had it un-coupled from the plumbing in the lower cistern spring box. It made a bit more noise when operating than the new one which is incredibly quiet. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated. Thank you! -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC 304-704-5943 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Thu Jul 11 16:51:24 2024 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2024 13:51:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grundfos SQFlex Pump Repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An SQF quiet? I've had three 3 SQF-2 and they are all quite loud, even 300 ft down the well. Maybe the 6 SQF is different. My old 3 SQF-2 will still pump water but not against much head. I think it failed because it had been running 24/7 for some time. If the leak is in the well it might even have heated up the water. I'm still looking for that leak.Time to pull the pump yet again. Brad Bassett On Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at 1:16 PM Matt Sherald via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello All, > > I just replaced a customer's Grundfos 6-SQF-2. It had stopped pushing > water to their upper cistern. > A new pump solved the customer's problem, but I am curious if anyone has > had luck repairing a SQFlex pump or (better yet!!) knows of a service > center that could refurb a pump.? > The pump I removed did move a little water once I had it un-coupled from > the plumbing in the lower cistern spring box. It made a bit more noise > when operating than the new one which is incredibly quiet. > > Any suggestions are greatly appreciated. Thank you! > > -- > Matt Sherald > PIMBY Energy, LLC > 304-704-5943 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sun Jul 14 12:42:54 2024 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2024 12:42:54 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grundfos SQFlex Pump Repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I never use the Grundfos pumps, but use standard AC deep well pumps, so long as the inverter can handle it. The off the shelf pumps aren't as efficient, but stay in the water for much longer. They are also cheaper. --- On 2024-07-11 16:51, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches wrote: > An SQF quiet? I've had three 3 SQF-2 and they are all quite loud, even > 300 ft down the well. Maybe the 6 SQF is different. My old 3 SQF-2 will > still pump water but not against much head. I think it failed because > it had been running 24/7 for some time. If the leak is in the well it > might even have heated up the water. I'm still looking for that > leak.Time to pull the pump yet again. > > Brad Bassett > > On Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at 1:16 PM Matt Sherald via RE-wrenches > wrote: > >> Hello All, >> >> I just replaced a customer's Grundfos 6-SQF-2. It had stopped pushing >> water to their upper cistern. >> A new pump solved the customer's problem, but I am curious if anyone >> has had luck repairing a SQFlex pump or (better yet!!) knows of a >> service center that could refurb a pump.? >> The pump I removed did move a little water once I had it un-coupled >> from the plumbing in the lower cistern spring box. It made a bit more >> noise when operating than the new one which is incredibly quiet. >> >> Any suggestions are greatly appreciated. Thank you! >> >> -- >> >> Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC >> >> 304-704-5943 _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Tue Jul 16 18:38:55 2024 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 18:38:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PVC shingles Message-ID: Hello, I am installing an array on a roof which has, I believe, pvc shingles formed to look like fake slate. I did a test pilot drill, and it definitely works like pvc. I think using standard L-foot flashing should be fine to tuck under them, and lag into the rafters as usual, unless there is something I'm missing. Any experience or comments shared would be appreciated. Thanks. -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Wed Jul 17 08:58:12 2024 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 12:58:12 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AES RACK MOUNT Message-ID: Greetings, Whose using the new Discover Rack mounted batteries? They look like the EG4 line up Pros and Cons ? Thanks Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Wed Jul 17 09:54:51 2024 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 06:54:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AES RACK MOUNT In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am. EG4=Yugo and AES=Mercedes. On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 5:58 AM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Greetings, > Whose using the new Discover > Rack mounted batteries? > They look like the EG4 line up > Pros and Cons ? > Thanks > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Wed Jul 17 10:23:55 2024 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 10:23:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AES RACK MOUNT In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Michael, What do you use to make your evaluation of AES in specific and varying brands of Lithium batteries in general? Thanks Howie Sun Catcher On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 9:55 AM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I am. EG4=Yugo and AES=Mercedes. > > On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 5:58 AM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Greetings, >> Whose using the new Discover >> Rack mounted batteries? >> They look like the EG4 line up >> Pros and Cons ? >> Thanks >> >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> Solar Installation / Design >> All Solar, Inc. >> 1453 M St. >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric Inc > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > CSLB 1116835 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pieter at offgridenterprises.org Wed Jul 17 10:52:10 2024 From: pieter at offgridenterprises.org (pieter offgridenterprises.org) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 14:52:10 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PVC shingles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We have installed a few systems on facilities with the type of roofing you are describing. These roofs have to be treated carefully, my advice is to consult with the roofing manufacturer and use a manufacturer approved system. Additionally these type of roofs can be very slippery so be sure to use every safety precaution. Pieter Huebner Project Manager Off grid Enterprises From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2024 5:39 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: Kirk Herander Subject: [RE-wrenches] PVC shingles Hello, I am installing an array on a roof which has, I believe, pvc shingles formed to look like fake slate. I did a test pilot drill, and it definitely works like pvc. I think using standard L-foot flashing should be fine to tuck under them, and lag into the rafters as usual, unless there is something I'm missing. Any experience or comments shared would be appreciated. Thanks. -- Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!! dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Wed Jul 17 10:55:58 2024 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 07:55:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AES RACK MOUNT In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, I've only used Discover, Simplifi, EG4, and Fortress. Many, many hundreds of Discover AES and DL Pros. They just work. I like to take things apart and the build quality is impressive. I mean really impressive. That was what I meant by the vehicle comparison. Closed loop perfection. I can talk to people at Discover who know their product and have a deep background in off-grid. And Discover came through like no other with the "Battery Incident" which by the way I need to point out, the battery itself didn't explode, it leaked gases that combusted and exploded. Simplifi, lot's of issues. Fortress, issues and hassles getting resolution. And EG4's, well I've ranted here before about them, low quality product and crap retailer. As a professional, I'm going to install the highest quality, professional grade equipment I can. So to answer your question, my evaluation method is empirically driven. On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 7:25 AM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Michael, > What do you use to make your evaluation of AES in specific and varying > brands of Lithium batteries in general? > Thanks > Howie > Sun Catcher > > > On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 9:55 AM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I am. EG4=Yugo and AES=Mercedes. >> >> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 5:58 AM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Greetings, >>> Whose using the new Discover >>> Rack mounted batteries? >>> They look like the EG4 line up >>> Pros and Cons ? >>> Thanks >>> >>> >>> Jeremy Rodriguez >>> Solar Installation / Design >>> All Solar, Inc. >>> 1453 M St. >>> Penrose Colorado 81240 >>> >>> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> Michael Morningstar >> >> >> Morningstar Electric Inc >> >> PO Box 1494 >> >> Mount Shasta, CA 96067 >> >> 530-921-0560 >> >> CSLB 1116835 >> >> mjmorningstar at gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Jul 17 11:18:40 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 08:18:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AES RACK MOUNT In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Awesome reliability on the AES 6650's we use with XW. Super easy installation. The cons on the new racks are that they are more work to install compared to the 6650. Two ways to install with Schneider though. Discover has said they will automate with the internet the install soon. I would not compare with EG4 as I do not know who is the deep pocket there with them and they are new on the scene. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-07-17 5:58 am, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches wrote: > Greetings, > Whose using the new Discover > Rack mounted batteries? > They look like the EG4 line up > Pros and Cons ? > Thanks > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Wed Jul 17 11:27:39 2024 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 08:27:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AES RACK MOUNT In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Because I work mostly alone, I'm digging the rack mounts. Dealing with 200 lb batteries takes me so much time, from receiving, loading, unloading, schlepping, and mounting Egyptian style. On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 8:19 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Awesome reliability on the AES 6650's we use with XW. Super easy > installation. > The cons on the new racks are that they are more work to install compared > to the 6650. Two ways to install with Schneider though. Discover has said > they will automate with the internet the install soon. > > > I would not compare with EG4 as I do not know who is the deep pocket there > with them and they are new on the scene. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2024-07-17 5:58 am, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Greetings, > Whose using the new Discover > Rack mounted batteries? > They look like the EG4 line up > Pros and Cons ? > Thanks > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jul 17 12:22:52 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 10:22:52 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AES RACK MOUNT In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9C826CDA-2E50-4689-9851-7CA41C30A022@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at vecoop.ca Wed Jul 17 12:29:51 2024 From: eric at vecoop.ca (Eric Smiley) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 09:29:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AES RACK MOUNT In-Reply-To: <9C826CDA-2E50-4689-9851-7CA41C30A022@gmail.com> References: <9C826CDA-2E50-4689-9851-7CA41C30A022@gmail.com> Message-ID: If you want UL9540, the AES rackmount has to be in the Slimline enclosure. Eric Smiley (he/him) - Design Manager 250.703.6004 eric at vecoop.ca 888.386.0116 3-4997 Polkey Rd, Duncan BC, V9L 6W3 viridiansolar.ca Viridian Solar honours the ancestral grounds on which we live and provide services, recognising that these lands are unceded Indigenous territory. We are steadfast in our commitment to reconciliation and acknowledge the rich history and traditions that characterise this land that we all consider home. On Wed, 17 Jul 2024 at 09:23, Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Yes I really like the rack mounts > > I’m curious about the AES mounts and others that don’t have an enclosure. > How does code deal with that? > > Thx > Jay > > On Jul 17, 2024, at 9:28 AM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Because I work mostly alone, I'm digging the rack mounts. Dealing with 200 > lb batteries takes me so much time, from receiving, loading, unloading, > schlepping, and mounting Egyptian style. > > On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 8:19 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via > RE-wrenches wrote: > >> Awesome reliability on the AES 6650's we use with XW. Super easy >> installation. >> The cons on the new racks are that they are more work to install compared >> to the 6650. Two ways to install with Schneider though. Discover has said >> they will automate with the internet the install soon. >> >> >> I would not compare with EG4 as I do not know who is the deep pocket >> there with them and they are new on the scene. >> >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> >> On 2024-07-17 5:58 am, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Greetings, >> Whose using the new Discover >> Rack mounted batteries? >> They look like the EG4 line up >> Pros and Cons ? >> Thanks >> >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> Solar Installation / Design >> All Solar, Inc. >> 1453 M St. >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric Inc > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > CSLB 1116835 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at greenwired.com Wed Jul 17 12:34:27 2024 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew Perkins) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 09:34:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grundfos SQFlex Pump Repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <190c18b8e91.10341a4a12864382.714790545593966246@greenwired.com> They are very easy to separate the pump motor from the pump head. It's a single threaded connection that holds the 2 together with a little bit of oil on the motor side. The issue is no one carries the extra parts so very long lead times from Grundfos and they are not cheap I think its like 1800 for a new pump head. At that point you just bite the bullet and buy a brand new unit with 2 years of warranty.  Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 http://www.greenwired.com        http://qr.codes/qTa1Mh ---- On Sun, 14 Jul 2024 09:42:54 -0700 Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote --- I never use the Grundfos pumps, but use standard AC deep well pumps, so long as the inverter can handle it. The off the shelf pumps aren't as efficient, but stay in the water for much longer. They are also cheaper. ---   On 2024-07-11 16:51, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches wrote: _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org An SQF quiet? I've had three 3 SQF-2 and they are all quite loud, even 300 ft down the well. Maybe the 6 SQF is different. My old 3 SQF-2 will still pump water but not against much head. I think it failed because it had been running 24/7 for some time. If the leak is in the well it might even have heated up the water. I'm still looking for that leak.Time to pull the pump yet again.   Brad Bassett On Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at 1:16 PM Matt Sherald via RE-wrenches wrote: Hello All,   I just replaced a customer's Grundfos 6-SQF-2.  It had stopped pushing water to their upper cistern. A new pump solved the customer's problem, but I am curious if anyone has had luck repairing a SQFlex pump or (better yet!!) knows of a service center that could refurb a pump.? The pump I removed did move a little water once I had it un-coupled from the plumbing in the lower cistern spring box.  It made a bit more noise when operating than the new one which is incredibly quiet.   Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.  Thank you! -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC   304-704-5943 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: New_logo.png Type: image/png Size: 26518 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: qrcode_115305565_7d41abb3d8a91304ef1c1ceb56edaa4a.png Type: image/png Size: 115110 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Jul 17 14:01:12 2024 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 12:01:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian overtemp Message-ID: Is there a temp sensor that may be at fault for not sending a fan run signal to one of the power boards on a Radian 8k? One side doesn't start the fan, fan tests fine, just no voltage on the plug. Thanks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Wed Jul 17 18:30:37 2024 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 18:30:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] just had a thought Message-ID: <006001dad898$f36593c0$da30bb40$@mindspring.com> Wrenchers, hope this does not get me booted but we need a little humor Just saw a google maps shot of the fairgrounds where Trump spoke this week. I noticed the roof that the shooter was on faces due south. If they had only put solar on that roof the guy could not have climbed up to take his shot. Lesson learned. Might be time to approach those fairground folks about solar. peter -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Wed Jul 17 20:40:16 2024 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 20:40:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark with 800A Service Message-ID: Hey there wrenchers, I am working on a larger project with 6 Sol-Ark 15K units and an 800A service. The main service conductors are 3 parallel runs of 400 kcmil. I am wondering how to CT these conductors from the master inverter. Sol Ark tech support has not been very helpful so far. I have the included 300A CTs ....and I do know that they make a 600A CT, but its physical size and rating aren't a good fit. Does anyone have experience with either a Sol Ark or third party CT that might fit this 800A configuration? Kindly, Chris Sparadeo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Thu Jul 18 01:05:46 2024 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 22:05:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark with 800A Service In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Chris, I’ve asked them if they are compatible with rope CTs and they aren’t…. Please share the solution you arrive at, as I know I’ll need to repeat it soon. David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jul 18 06:51:36 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2024 06:51:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark with 800A Service In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This may or may not be helpful, but are you sure you need the CTs? They are not always required. You would need them for power export limiting or grid peak shaving, but for straight grid-tied with or without battery backup, you don't need them. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Wed, Jul 17, 2024, 8:41 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hey there wrenchers, > > I am working on a larger project with 6 Sol-Ark 15K units and an 800A > service. The main service conductors are 3 parallel runs of 400 kcmil. I am > wondering how to CT these conductors from the master inverter. Sol Ark tech > support has not been very helpful so far. I have the included 300A CTs > ....and I do know that they make a 600A CT, but its physical size and > rating aren't a good fit. Does anyone have experience with either a Sol Ark > or third party CT that might fit this 800A configuration? > > Kindly, > > Chris Sparadeo > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Thu Jul 18 07:23:32 2024 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2024 07:23:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark with 800A Service In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jason, Sorry for not clarifying. This is a export limited scenario, so CTs would still be required. On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 6:51 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > This may or may not be helpful, but are you sure you need the CTs? They > are not always required. You would need them for power export limiting or > grid peak shaving, but for straight grid-tied with or without battery > backup, you don't need them. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > On Wed, Jul 17, 2024, 8:41 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hey there wrenchers, >> >> I am working on a larger project with 6 Sol-Ark 15K units and an 800A >> service. The main service conductors are 3 parallel runs of 400 kcmil. I am >> wondering how to CT these conductors from the master inverter. Sol Ark tech >> support has not been very helpful so far. I have the included 300A CTs >> ....and I do know that they make a 600A CT, but its physical size and >> rating aren't a good fit. Does anyone have experience with either a Sol Ark >> or third party CT that might fit this 800A configuration? >> >> Kindly, >> >> Chris Sparadeo >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jul 18 07:44:42 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2024 07:44:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark with 800A Service In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You should be able to parallel 6 CTs (3 per phase) as long as you get the phases and directions right. The question really comes down to whether the Sol-Ark can handle the current from 800A at the CT ratio (which I believe is 2000:1). For practical purposes, on an 800A service, particularly residential, you will probably never see more than 600A, so it would probably be fine. But I would like to know what Sol-Ark says about this. It does not appear to be documented. For the 30K and 60K they have recommended CTs for up to 1200A. I'm not sure if 600A measurement is a hard limit for the 15K considering that's the largest single CT they specify in their documentation. Jason On Thu, Jul 18, 2024, 7:23 AM Chris Sparadeo wrote: > Hi Jason, > > Sorry for not clarifying. This is a export limited scenario, so CTs would > still be required. > > > > On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 6:51 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> This may or may not be helpful, but are you sure you need the CTs? They >> are not always required. You would need them for power export limiting or >> grid peak shaving, but for straight grid-tied with or without battery >> backup, you don't need them. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024, 8:41 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hey there wrenchers, >>> >>> I am working on a larger project with 6 Sol-Ark 15K units and an 800A >>> service. The main service conductors are 3 parallel runs of 400 kcmil. I am >>> wondering how to CT these conductors from the master inverter. Sol Ark tech >>> support has not been very helpful so far. I have the included 300A CTs >>> ....and I do know that they make a 600A CT, but its physical size and >>> rating aren't a good fit. Does anyone have experience with either a Sol Ark >>> or third party CT that might fit this 800A configuration? >>> >>> Kindly, >>> >>> Chris Sparadeo >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Thu Jul 18 08:03:36 2024 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2024 08:03:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark with 800A Service In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As an aside, I ran into this with a Fortress True 12kw. (As of several months ago) They have not tested parallel CTs, nor have they tested single CTs in any service above 200A. They would not approve my plan to parallel CTs on a parallel conductor, 400A service. Fortress does have an input for a 3rd party meter, who knows if it's been developed, maybe Sol-Ark does too. Definitely run it past Sol-Ark first. On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 7:46 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > You should be able to parallel 6 CTs (3 per phase) as long as you get the > phases and directions right. The question really comes down to whether the > Sol-Ark can handle the current from 800A at the CT ratio (which I believe > is 2000:1). For practical purposes, on an 800A service, particularly > residential, you will probably never see more than 600A, so it would > probably be fine. > > But I would like to know what Sol-Ark says about this. It does not appear > to be documented. For the 30K and 60K they have recommended CTs for up to > 1200A. I'm not sure if 600A measurement is a hard limit for the 15K > considering that's the largest single CT they specify in their > documentation. > > Jason > > > On Thu, Jul 18, 2024, 7:23 AM Chris Sparadeo > wrote: > >> Hi Jason, >> >> Sorry for not clarifying. This is a export limited scenario, so CTs would >> still be required. >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 6:51 AM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> This may or may not be helpful, but are you sure you need the CTs? They >>> are not always required. You would need them for power export limiting or >>> grid peak shaving, but for straight grid-tied with or without battery >>> backup, you don't need them. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024, 8:41 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Hey there wrenchers, >>>> >>>> I am working on a larger project with 6 Sol-Ark 15K units and an 800A >>>> service. The main service conductors are 3 parallel runs of 400 kcmil. I am >>>> wondering how to CT these conductors from the master inverter. Sol Ark tech >>>> support has not been very helpful so far. I have the included 300A CTs >>>> ....and I do know that they make a 600A CT, but its physical size and >>>> rating aren't a good fit. Does anyone have experience with either a Sol Ark >>>> or third party CT that might fit this 800A configuration? >>>> >>>> Kindly, >>>> >>>> Chris Sparadeo >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Thu Jul 18 14:45:02 2024 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2024 12:45:02 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery based grid-tie in Portland OR Message-ID: <00b701dad942$99b6e4a0$cd24ade0$@OasisMontana.com> Hey folks: Who's a good person to recommend for an installation in Portland, OR? Please feel free to contact me off-list. Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gowdyelectriccambria at gmail.com Thu Jul 18 17:11:42 2024 From: gowdyelectriccambria at gmail.com (Jim Gowdy) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2024 14:11:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3 programming issues Message-ID: I'm having issues trying to set this Mate 3 controller to default settings on a system I haven't worked on before. Things I'm noticing is under my MAIN MENU-SETTINGS-INVERTER my only choice is "SEARCH" and no other menu options. Also under MAIN MENU-SETTINGS-MATE3s my only choices are AGS, data logging, flextime schedule, and optics auto reboot interval. I've done some research online and it seems like user options have been limited. I've got a call into tech support, but no response yet. Does anyone have any advice? -- Jim with Gowdy Electric Cambria, Ca 93428 business 805 927 2630 cell 805 975 5279 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Jul 18 17:17:43 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2024 14:17:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3 programming issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jim: You may be logged in as a limited access user. Try logging in as installer. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 2:12 PM Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I'm having issues trying to set this Mate 3 controller to default > settings on a system I haven't worked on before. Things I'm noticing is > under my MAIN MENU-SETTINGS-INVERTER my only choice is "SEARCH" and no > other menu options. Also under MAIN MENU-SETTINGS-MATE3s my only choices > are AGS, data logging, flextime schedule, and optics auto reboot interval. > I've done some research online and it seems like user options have been > limited. I've got a call into tech support, but no response yet. Does > anyone have any advice? > > -- > Jim with Gowdy Electric > Cambria, Ca 93428 > business 805 927 2630 > cell 805 975 5279 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jul 18 17:34:21 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2024 15:34:21 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3 programming issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01F586B3-E23E-41DE-B25F-8ABC9CB8C599@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bruce at mendocinosolar.com Thu Jul 18 17:56:53 2024 From: bruce at mendocinosolar.com (Bruce Erickson) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2024 14:56:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3 programming issues In-Reply-To: <01F586B3-E23E-41DE-B25F-8ABC9CB8C599@gmail.com> References: <01F586B3-E23E-41DE-B25F-8ABC9CB8C599@gmail.com> Message-ID: Speaking of OB tech support, I was on hold for two hours yesterday, then gave up. Has anyone gotten a live response lately? Bruce Erickson Mendocino Solar Service 707-937-1701 PO Box 1252 Mendocino, CA 95460 "Serving the Solar System" > On Jul 18, 2024, at 2:34 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi jim. > > William > Might be right, but what equipment do you have on this system? > > Doing a cat 5 unplug,plug back might help > > Jay > > > >> On Jul 18, 2024, at 3:18 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >>  >> Jim: >> >> You may be logged in as a limited access user. Try logging in as installer. >> >> William Miller >> Miller Solar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 2:12 PM Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> I'm having issues trying to set this Mate 3 controller to default settings on a system I haven't worked on before. Things I'm noticing is under my MAIN MENU-SETTINGS-INVERTER my only choice is "SEARCH" and no other menu options. Also under MAIN MENU-SETTINGS-MATE3s my only choices are AGS, data logging, flextime schedule, and optics auto reboot interval. I've done some research online and it seems like user options have been limited. I've got a call into tech support, but no response yet. Does anyone have any advice? >> >> -- >> Jim with Gowdy Electric >> Cambria, Ca 93428 >> business 805 927 2630 >> cell 805 975 5279 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: logo.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5686 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Thu Jul 18 17:24:35 2024 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2024 17:24:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark with 800A Service In-Reply-To: <7c014514-84b1-4661-8ca7-c753db1d340a@ntree.org> References: <5fd8bf88-75f8-4f3d-a2e8-3a32f56d7e80@ntree.org> <7c014514-84b1-4661-8ca7-c753db1d340a@ntree.org> Message-ID: FYI Sol Ark sales engineer has suggested the following: “For the 15K, we've recommended AcuCT R Series - AcuCT-4161R-800:100mA | Accuenergy with 100mA output. On the inverter, you will need to adjust the CT ratio to 8000:1. Also note that this will have to be confirmed with Tech Support upon installation/commissioning, to prevent void of warranty.” The CT has an ID of 4” so all parallel conductors should pass through just fine. The 30 and 60K units use a similar Accuenergy CT but higher amp draw that are not compatible with residential units. On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 11:51 AM Dan Lepinski, P.E. wrote: > Chris, > > If the only goal is to avoid backfeeding the grid, in the configuration > as described, the inverter will sense any outbound current and reduce its > output accordingly. > > Should you desire to monitor incoming power and energy, all readings will > need to be multiplied by three .. which unless there's a specific setting > in the inverter to automatically allow this scaling (unlikely, and requires > Sol-Ark verification), such multiplications will need to be consciously > performed when looking at the data. > > Not ideal from a data tracking perspective, but it will at least meet the > zero-backfeed stipulation. (You may want to discuss adding bi-directional > CT "current scaling" capability with Sol-Ark if it doesn't already exist in > their firmware.) > > > Dan > > > > On 7/18/24 10:24, Chris Sparadeo wrote: > > Hi Dan, > > > > Thanks for your thoughts. The idea of 1/3 CT crossed my mind as well. > The question is how to set up the inverter with a 3x multiplier on those > two CTs to get a full 800A reading. I assume that would be something a Sol > Ark engineer would have to program remotely? > > > > Thanks again, > > > > -Chris > > > > On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 8:42 AM Dan Lepinski, P.E. > wrote: > > > > Gentlemen, > > > > A possible solution is to utilize one CT around one each of the > three paralleled 400 MCM. One CT around one of the three L1 conductors, > and the other CT around one of the three L2 conductors. Ensure correct > direction for current flow when you install them. (Sol-Ark calls it > "polarity".) > > > > With three 400 MCM in parallel, each conductor will carry nominally > 1/3 of the total current, regardless of direction (in or out). Thus a CT > around each of the three phase conductors will measure 1/3 of the total > current. > > > > 800 Amps / 3 = 266.67 amps. > > > > As you probably know, there's a 200 amp CT and 600 amp CT on > Sol-ark's website. https://shop.sol-ark.com/catalog/extra-large-cts/ < > https://shop.sol-ark.com/catalog/extra-large-cts/> > > > > Obviously the 200 amp CT isn't suitable (267A > 200A), which leaves > the 600 amp part. > > > > Program the inverter accordingly, with an understanding the 600 A CT > will be reading 1/3 of the total current. > > > > You'll give up some resolution (267A/600A = 44.4% of the total > full-scale current reading for a 600 amp CT), but with proper inverter > setup, it will work for purposes of limiting export. > > > > That said .. each CT requires its own burden resistor, and the > inverter isn't designed for three to be connected as you're discussing, > whether series or parallel. > > > > > > Hope this helps... > > > > > > Dan > > > > > > -- > > Dan Lepinski, P.E. > > Professional Solar Consultant & Electrical Design Engineer > > Serving the Solar Industry Since 1972 > > www.ntree.org > > 817.884.6081 (cell) > > Texas License 123654 > > Texas Registered Firm F-17965 > > > > * United States Department of Energy National Building Codes > Assistance Project > > (One of only two engineers selected nationwide for the program.) > > > > * Voting Member - UL 1741 / UL 62109 Standards Technical Panel > > > > * Voting Member - IEEE 1547 Standards Development Committee > > > > * Voting Member - North Central Texas Council of Governments > Regional Codes Coordinating Committee > > > > * Voting Member - North Central Texas Council of Governments > Electrical Code Advisory Board > > > > * State of Texas Energy Advisory Council Member > > > > * State of Texas Contracted Subject Matter Expert on Solar Energy > > > > * International Code Council Preferred Education Provider (#2882) > > > > Professional Profile: > https://www.linkedin.com/in/dan-lepinski-p-e-5339bb22/ < > https://www.linkedin.com/in/dan-lepinski-p-e-5339bb22/> > > > > "Scientists investigate that which already is; engineers create that > which has never been." > > ~ Albert Einstein > > > > Unless indicated otherwise, all information contained in this > message is privileged and confidential. As such, it is intended only for > use by the addressee(s) named above, and others who have been specifically > authorized to receive it. Correspondence designated as privileged and > confidential is subject to all terms and conditions of any Confidentiality > Agreements and/or Non-Disclosure Agreements in effect between our > respective parties. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, July 18, 2024 at 07:04:47 AM CDT, Kirk Herander via > RE-wrenches re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As an aside, I ran into this with a Fortress True 12kw. (As of > several months ago) They have not tested parallel CTs, nor have they tested > single CTs in any service above 200A. They would not approve my plan to > parallel CTs on a parallel conductor, 400A service. > > > > > > > > > > Fortress does have an input for a 3rd party meter, who knows if > it's been developed, maybe Sol-Ark does too. > > > > > > > > > > Definitely run it past Sol-Ark first. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 7:46 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>> wrote: > > > > > You should be able to parallel 6 CTs (3 per phase) as long as you > get the phases and directions right. The question really comes down to > whether the Sol-Ark can handle the current from 800A at the CT ratio (which > I believe is 2000:1). For practical purposes, on an 800A service, > particularly residential, you will probably never see more than 600A, so it > would probably be fine. > > > > > > > > > > But I would like to know what Sol-Ark says about this. It does not > appear to be documented. For the 30K and 60K they have recommended CTs for > up to 1200A. I'm not sure if 600A measurement is a hard limit for the 15K > considering that's the largest single CT they specify in their > documentation. > > > > > > > > > > Jason > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 18, 2024, 7:23 AM Chris Sparadeo < > sparadeo.chris at gmail.com > wrote: > > > > > Hi Jason, > > > > > > > > > > Sorry for not clarifying. This is a export limited scenario, so > CTs would still be required. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 6:51 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com>> wrote: > > > > > This may or may not be helpful, but are you sure you need the CTs? > They are not always required. You would need them for power export limiting > or grid peak shaving, but for straight grid-tied with or without battery > backup, you don't need them. > > > > > > > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 17, 2024, 8:41 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>> wrote: > > > > > Hey there wrenchers, > > > > > > > > > > I am working on a larger project with 6 Sol-Ark 15K units and an > 800A service. The main service conductors are 3 parallel runs of 400 kcmil. > I am wondering how to CT these conductors from the master inverter. Sol Ark > tech support has not been very helpful so far. I have the included 300A CTs > ....and I do know that they make a 600A CT, but its physical size and > rating aren't a good fit. Does anyone have experience with either a Sol Ark > or third party CT that might fit this 800A configuration? > > > > > > > > > > Kindly, > > > > > > > > > > Chris Sparadeo > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Jul 18 18:27:01 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2024 15:27:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3 programming issues In-Reply-To: References: <01F586B3-E23E-41DE-B25F-8ABC9CB8C599@gmail.com> Message-ID: No, although I have tried. I have left messages for weeks but no response. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 2:56 PM Bruce Erickson wrote: > Speaking of OB tech support, I was on hold for two hours yesterday, then > gave up. Has anyone gotten a live response lately? > > Bruce Erickson > Mendocino Solar Service > 707-937-1701 > PO Box 1252 > Mendocino, CA 95460 > > > > "Serving the Solar System" > > > > > > On Jul 18, 2024, at 2:34 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi jim. > > William > Might be right, but what equipment do you have on this system? > > Doing a cat 5 unplug,plug back might help > > Jay > > > > On Jul 18, 2024, at 3:18 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Jim: > > You may be logged in as a limited access user. Try logging in as > installer. > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 2:12 PM Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I'm having issues trying to set this Mate 3 controller to default >> settings on a system I haven't worked on before. Things I'm noticing is >> under my MAIN MENU-SETTINGS-INVERTER my only choice is "SEARCH" and no >> other menu options. Also under MAIN MENU-SETTINGS-MATE3s my only choices >> are AGS, data logging, flextime schedule, and optics auto reboot interval. >> I've done some research online and it seems like user options have been >> limited. I've got a call into tech support, but no response yet. Does >> anyone have any advice? >> >> -- >> Jim with Gowdy Electric >> Cambria, Ca 93428 >> business 805 927 2630 >> cell 805 975 5279 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: logo.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5686 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Thu Jul 18 19:03:27 2024 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2024 16:03:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3 programming issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I know this might be a silly question but did you try unplugging the Cat5 cable to the Hub for a few seconds then plug back in? Update firmware with newest Mate3 (not 3-s)? I had a reasonable amount of Mate3 swaps to the newer 3-s but the Mate3 units I still serve are pretty reliable and the behavior you describe kind of sounds like those usually remedied with a quick removal of the Cat5 cable. Good luck, Nick On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 2:12 PM Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I'm having issues trying to set this Mate 3 controller to default > settings on a system I haven't worked on before. Things I'm noticing is > under my MAIN MENU-SETTINGS-INVERTER my only choice is "SEARCH" and no > other menu options. Also under MAIN MENU-SETTINGS-MATE3s my only choices > are AGS, data logging, flextime schedule, and optics auto reboot interval. > I've done some research online and it seems like user options have been > limited. I've got a call into tech support, but no response yet. Does > anyone have any advice? > > -- > Jim with Gowdy Electric > Cambria, Ca 93428 > business 805 927 2630 > cell 805 975 5279 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gowdyelectriccambria at gmail.com Thu Jul 18 19:27:45 2024 From: gowdyelectriccambria at gmail.com (Jim Gowdy) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2024 16:27:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3 programming issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for input, I ended up getting it with William Miller's help. On the "sign in" on the Mate3, I ended up leaving the user number (132) and put a specific 4 digit number in the "installer" portion which got me access to more settings. On this system there are 4 x FXR inverters, AC and DC cabinetry, fndc monitor, 1 x FM100 CC, with flooded lead acid batteries. Also a backup generator On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 4:03 PM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I know this might be a silly question but did you try unplugging the Cat5 > cable to the Hub for a few seconds then plug back in? Update firmware with > newest Mate3 (not 3-s)? I had a reasonable amount of Mate3 swaps to the > newer 3-s but the Mate3 units I still serve are pretty reliable and the > behavior you describe kind of sounds like those usually remedied with a > quick removal of the Cat5 cable. > > Good luck, Nick > > > On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 2:12 PM Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I'm having issues trying to set this Mate 3 controller to default >> settings on a system I haven't worked on before. Things I'm noticing is >> under my MAIN MENU-SETTINGS-INVERTER my only choice is "SEARCH" and no >> other menu options. Also under MAIN MENU-SETTINGS-MATE3s my only choices >> are AGS, data logging, flextime schedule, and optics auto reboot interval. >> I've done some research online and it seems like user options have been >> limited. I've got a call into tech support, but no response yet. Does >> anyone have any advice? >> >> -- >> Jim with Gowdy Electric >> Cambria, Ca 93428 >> business 805 927 2630 >> cell 805 975 5279 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Jim with Gowdy Electric Cambria, Ca 93428 business 805 927 2630 cell 805 975 5279 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Fri Jul 19 12:13:32 2024 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2024 12:13:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Another Mate 3 programming issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <97226639-cc56-4967-a0a1-182cf534d7ad@entech-engineering.com> This is grid tied system with all firmware updates that the Mate 3s recognizes. I cannot figure this blank data menu out.  I have to program the battery ABS, FLOAT settings from the FM60 CC. System is 12 years old so no Tech support available even if they answer the phone.... Has anyone have advice for if this is normal, or if there seems to be an issue? Used a spare Mate 3s with no difference.  Thank you, Chris -- Christopher Warfel           ENTECH Engineering Inc.    PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                   401-477-5773 EE Logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Mate3s Battery Setpoint Menu.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 351820 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/vcard Size: 203 bytes Desc: not available URL: From steve at surrette.com Fri Jul 19 12:25:55 2024 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2024 09:25:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Another Mate 3 programming issues In-Reply-To: <97226639-cc56-4967-a0a1-182cf534d7ad@entech-engineering.com> References: <97226639-cc56-4967-a0a1-182cf534d7ad@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Some of the older FM60s and even FM80s won't work with the Mate3. If I remember correctly, this was due to the older 8-bit processors on some pre-2008 units. MX60s have never and won't ever work with the MATE3. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Fri, Jul 19, 2024 at 9:15 AM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > This is grid tied system with all firmware updates that the Mate 3s > recognizes. I cannot figure this blank data menu out. I have to program > the battery ABS, FLOAT settings from the FM60 CC. System is 12 years old > so no Tech support available even if they answer the phone.... > > Has anyone have advice for if this is normal, or if there seems to be an > issue? Used a spare Mate 3s with no difference. Thank you, Chris > > > > -- > Christopher Warfel > ENTECH Engineering Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-477-5773 > [image: EE Logo] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jul 19 12:30:39 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2024 10:30:39 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Another Mate 3 programming issues In-Reply-To: <97226639-cc56-4967-a0a1-182cf534d7ad@entech-engineering.com> References: <97226639-cc56-4967-a0a1-182cf534d7ad@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <1BB6C8E7-FCCB-444F-978A-546C745CAA43@gmail.com> HI Chris, Can you give us more data? Like is this a new problem, or it only started after X? Since its not seeing the port ( NA) it could be the CC or the HUB, or the cable. the hub will show an active LED light if its connecting to anything on that port. You can try plugging into the CC directly to see if it reads it, probably easier with another mate. It just sucks to not have tech support or anyone on wrenches from some OEMS Jay > On Jul 19, 2024, at 10:13 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches wrote: > > This is grid tied system with all firmware updates that the Mate 3s recognizes. I cannot figure this blank data menu out. I have to program the battery ABS, FLOAT settings from the FM60 CC. System is 12 years old so no Tech support available even if they answer the phone.... > > Has anyone have advice for if this is normal, or if there seems to be an issue? Used a spare Mate 3s with no difference. Thank you, Chris > > > > > > > > -- > Christopher Warfel > ENTECH Engineering Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-477-5773 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Fri Jul 19 12:59:52 2024 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2024 12:59:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Another Mate 3 programming issues In-Reply-To: <1BB6C8E7-FCCB-444F-978A-546C745CAA43@gmail.com> References: <97226639-cc56-4967-a0a1-182cf534d7ad@entech-engineering.com> <1BB6C8E7-FCCB-444F-978A-546C745CAA43@gmail.com> Message-ID: Not sure if this helps but I had installed a full blown Outback twin VFX 3648 with two MX60's with the old green cabinets back in 2005. Last year I had to replace the two inverters with the new FXR as the VFX is discontinued. In order to do this I had to dump the old oval mate and move up to the Mate3s, as well as replace the old Hub 10.1 and use the newer 10.3. When all said and done, the Mate saw the old MX60's but you were unable to make changes or access any data/settings. One other note, the 2nd inverter goes on port 7 of the Hub, not port 2 as we've been use to in the past. Christopher On Fri, Jul 19, 2024 at 12:30 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > HI Chris, > > Can you give us more data? > > Like is this a new problem, or it only started after X? > > Since its not seeing the port ( NA) it could be the CC or the HUB, or the > cable. > the hub will show an active LED light if its connecting to anything on > that port. > > You can try plugging into the CC directly to see if it reads it, probably > easier with another mate. > > It just sucks to not have tech support or anyone on wrenches from some OEMS > > Jay > > > > On Jul 19, 2024, at 10:13 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > This is grid tied system with all firmware updates that the Mate 3s > recognizes. I cannot figure this blank data menu out. I have to program > the battery ABS, FLOAT settings from the FM60 CC. System is 12 years old > so no Tech support available even if they answer the phone.... > > Has anyone have advice for if this is normal, or if there seems to be an > issue? Used a spare Mate 3s with no difference. Thank you, Chris > > > > > -- > Christopher Warfel > ENTECH Engineering Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-477-5773 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Jul 19 17:49:10 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2024 14:49:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Another Mate 3 programming issues In-Reply-To: References: <97226639-cc56-4967-a0a1-182cf534d7ad@entech-engineering.com> <1BB6C8E7-FCCB-444F-978A-546C745CAA43@gmail.com> Message-ID: MX60 was not networked which was the reason I stopped using them and went to Xantrex around 2005. Not surprised that you could not change MX60 settings on mate. Long time ago... Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [2]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [3] [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-07-19 9:59 am, Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches wrote: > Not sure if this helps but I had installed a full blown Outback twin > VFX 3648 with two MX60's with the old green cabinets back in 2005. Last > year I had to replace the two inverters with the new FXR as the VFX is > discontinued. In order to do this I had to dump the old oval mate and > move up to the Mate3s, as well as replace the old Hub 10.1 and use the > newer 10.3. When all said and done, the Mate saw the old MX60's but you > were unable to make changes or access any data/settings. One other > note, the 2nd inverter goes on port 7 of the Hub, not port 2 as we've > been use to in the past. > > Christopher > > On Fri, Jul 19, 2024 at 12:30 PM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > HI Chris, > > Can you give us more data? > > Like is this a new problem, or it only started after X? > > Since its not seeing the port ( NA) it could be the CC or the HUB, or > the cable. > the hub will show an active LED light if its connecting to anything on > that port. > > You can try plugging into the CC directly to see if it reads it, > probably easier with another mate. > > It just sucks to not have tech support or anyone on wrenches from some > OEMS > > Jay > > On Jul 19, 2024, at 10:13 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > This is grid tied system with all firmware updates that the Mate 3s > recognizes. I cannot figure this blank data menu out. I have to > program the battery ABS, FLOAT settings from the FM60 CC. System is 12 > years old so no Tech support available even if they answer the > phone.... > > Has anyone have advice for if this is normal, or if there seems to be > an issue? Used a spare Mate 3s with no difference. Thank you, Chris > > -- > Christopher Warfel > ENTECH Engineering Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-477-5773 > [1] > > Menu.jpg>_______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Schaefer's Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 _www.solarandwindfx.com [4] ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com_ Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] https://entech-engineering.com/Home/default.php [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] https://offgridsolar1.com/ [4] http://www.solarandwindfx.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gowdyelectriccambria at gmail.com Fri Jul 19 19:18:30 2024 From: gowdyelectriccambria at gmail.com (Jim Gowdy) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2024 16:18:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3 firmware updates Message-ID: I'm somewhat new to the solar industry and I'm starting to break into programming and more computer involved skills of solar. I primarily do small cabins and service work, but have been a part of some decent residential systems. Does anyone have any good literature and/or videos of updating firmware on Outback Mate3 controllers. I've seen instructions, but I hear little tricks/tips that are not at all in the instructions. I'm looking for a really good, detailed instruction sheet so I can keep it for reference. Thanks for any responses. -- Jim with Gowdy Electric Cambria, Ca 93428 business 805 927 2630 cell 805 975 5279 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Jul 19 19:46:00 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2024 16:46:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3 firmware updates In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <482a13cea55dcc132cc09cab6a243b27@sti.net> https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=outback+mate3s Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-07-19 4:18 pm, Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches wrote: > I'm somewhat new to the solar industry and I'm starting to break into > programming and more computer involved skills of solar. I primarily do > small cabins and service work, but have been a part of some decent > residential systems. Does anyone have any good literature and/or > videos of updating firmware on Outback Mate3 controllers. I've seen > instructions, but I hear little tricks/tips that are not at all in the > instructions. I'm looking for a really good, detailed instruction > sheet so I can keep it for reference. Thanks for any responses. > -- > > Jim with Gowdy Electric > Cambria, Ca 93428 > business 805 927 2630 > cell 805 975 5279 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sat Jul 20 10:35:22 2024 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2024 08:35:22 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3 firmware updates In-Reply-To: <482a13cea55dcc132cc09cab6a243b27@sti.net> References: <482a13cea55dcc132cc09cab6a243b27@sti.net> Message-ID: Hi Jim, I was given this sequence from an Outback engineer a while ago and it works really well. 1. Insert SD card in computer, R click and do a quick format. 2. Download the firmware from Ouback website to a known location on your computer, unzip to a known location. 3. Open the blank SD card in file explorer and open the unzipped file folder and resize the windows so they are side by side. 4. Drag each item from the unzipped folder into the SD card window and give it time to complete writing to the SD card. *Do each file individually*. This is important to keep write errors from occurring. 5. Once completed, do a safe eject of the SD card. 6. Plug the SD card. Push and hold the "Up" button until you see "Updating Ethernet Processor". Allow it to complete. Then check to verify its success. This sequence of loading firmware piece by piece can be done for all of the devices, but if its not the Mate that you are updating you will not use step 6, instead you will navigate to the firmware update section and select the device you want to update. Good luck out there! On Fri, Jul 19, 2024 at 5:46 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=outback+mate3s > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2024-07-19 4:18 pm, Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I'm somewhat new to the solar industry and I'm starting to break into > programming and more computer involved skills of solar. I primarily do > small cabins and service work, but have been a part of some decent > residential systems. Does anyone have any good literature and/or videos of > updating firmware on Outback Mate3 controllers. I've seen instructions, > but I hear little tricks/tips that are not at all in the instructions. I'm > looking for a really good, detailed instruction sheet so I can keep it for > reference. Thanks for any responses. > > -- > Jim with Gowdy Electric > Cambria, Ca 93428 > business 805 927 2630 > cell 805 975 5279 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Sat Jul 20 16:46:56 2024 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2024 20:46:56 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback in general Message-ID: What’s up with Outback as a biz? Are they back? Status? phone #s same? Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 > On Jul 19, 2024, at 5:19 PM, Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > I'm somewhat new to the solar industry and I'm starting to break into programming and more computer involved skills of solar. I primarily do small cabins and service work, but have been a part of some decent residential systems. Does anyone have any good literature and/or videos of updating firmware on Outback Mate3 controllers. I've seen instructions, but I hear little tricks/tips that are not at all in the instructions. I'm looking for a really good, detailed instruction sheet so I can keep it for reference. Thanks for any responses. > > -- > Jim with Gowdy Electric > Cambria, Ca 93428 > business 805 927 2630 > cell 805 975 5279 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From william at millersolar.com Sat Jul 20 16:53:04 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2024 13:53:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback in general In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I can’t get through to tech support and they don’t return my calls. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Sat, Jul 20, 2024 at 1:48 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > What’s up with Outback as a biz? > Are they back? > Status? > phone #s same? > > Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 > > > On Jul 19, 2024, at 5:19 PM, Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > >  > > I'm somewhat new to the solar industry and I'm starting to break into > programming and more computer involved skills of solar. I primarily do > small cabins and service work, but have been a part of some decent > residential systems. Does anyone have any good literature and/or videos of > updating firmware on Outback Mate3 controllers. I've seen instructions, > but I hear little tricks/tips that are not at all in the instructions. I'm > looking for a really good, detailed instruction sheet so I can keep it for > reference. Thanks for any responses. > > > > -- > > Jim with Gowdy Electric > > Cambria, Ca 93428 > > business 805 927 2630 > > cell 805 975 5279 > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Jul 20 17:21:49 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2024 15:21:49 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback in general In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3CF5DB19-FCEB-45BE-9DB9-3F621CD03825@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sat Jul 20 19:04:14 2024 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2024 17:04:14 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback in general In-Reply-To: <3CF5DB19-FCEB-45BE-9DB9-3F621CD03825@gmail.com> References: <3CF5DB19-FCEB-45BE-9DB9-3F621CD03825@gmail.com> Message-ID: I had a tech support call with Outback on Thursday, I got right through to someone smart and competent and right away. They are sending a new control stack under warranty. Maybe I got lucky? I was surprised. He did say that EnerSys was still helping with the warranty aspect. On Sat, Jul 20, 2024 at 3:22 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I just checked the OB forums page and there is nothing current. > > One thing I found says that the new president of OB is the CEO of Big > Battery. I don’t know that to be a fact. > Which is also somehow related to signature solar/ EG4. > > My guess is that if/when OB resurfaces it won’t have the same products. > It’ll just be an old name selling new products and they won’t be dealing > with old legacy products, warranty or MX or tech support. > > I could be way wrong. > > But anyone trying to keep a product line going wouldn’t just stop all > communication for a few months. > > Maybe someone who has been an OB distributor might know more about what’s > up? I no longer have any of those contacts. > > New world, fellow wrenches. > > Jay > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 20, 2024, at 2:54 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > I can’t get through to tech support and they don’t return my calls. > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Sat, Jul 20, 2024 at 1:48 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> What’s up with Outback as a biz? >> Are they back? >> Status? >> phone #s same? >> >> Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 >> >> > On Jul 19, 2024, at 5:19 PM, Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> > >> >  >> > I'm somewhat new to the solar industry and I'm starting to break into >> programming and more computer involved skills of solar. I primarily do >> small cabins and service work, but have been a part of some decent >> residential systems. Does anyone have any good literature and/or videos of >> updating firmware on Outback Mate3 controllers. I've seen instructions, >> but I hear little tricks/tips that are not at all in the instructions. I'm >> looking for a really good, detailed instruction sheet so I can keep it for >> reference. Thanks for any responses. >> > >> > -- >> > Jim with Gowdy Electric >> > Cambria, Ca 93428 >> > business 805 927 2630 >> > cell 805 975 5279 >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sat Jul 20 19:24:29 2024 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2024 17:24:29 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback in general In-Reply-To: <3CF5DB19-FCEB-45BE-9DB9-3F621CD03825@gmail.com> References: <3CF5DB19-FCEB-45BE-9DB9-3F621CD03825@gmail.com> Message-ID: James Showalter from Signature Solar and Eric Lundgren from Big Battery purchased Outback Solar. I have had terrible tech support experiences from both of those outfits, they tend to conveniently "forget" your engineering and NEC code compliance support requests when the answer is just simply "no, not yet UL listed" or "we don't know if that feature works or not." I'm not sure how these prolific suppliers of cheap crap products with terrible QC and NIB failure rates intend to compete, but my guess is that they have control of the big crap overseas product pipeline nozzle and intend to steer the huge stream of sewage in our direction. Sol-Ark just imports Deye products and retrofits them with their own upgrades and firmware. Magnum has vanished, much to my dismay as my own system is Magnum as are dozens of my customers. Us off-grid folks still have a couple guys named boB and Robin at Midnite that still manufacture, sell and support good products. Maybe Morningstar will up their game into larger inverters. Why are all these shady import companies based in Texas? Inquiring minds want to know! BTW, I hate all-in-ones, never had a single good experience, just endless firmware and comms updates and such simple issues resulting in multiple truck rolls. I miss Lones Tuss of Outback calling me back on a Friday evening at 7PM and remotely diagnosing my client's VFX / Mate 3S issues whilst doing his laundry at home, after I submitted a ticket earlier that day. The client seriously thought I was pulling a practical joke on him until I put Lones on speaker. Strange new world for us off-grid folks. I'll have to stick with the very few companies left that I trust. Yes, yes, Schneider, but their tech support is almost impenetrable. Our strange new off-grid world seems to be destined as crap from Alibaba and Amazon, and it all smells rather off to me, like the "fresh fish" at a run-down Safeway in eastern Kansas.... Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Sat, Jul 20, 2024 at 3:22 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I just checked the OB forums page and there is nothing current. > > One thing I found says that the new president of OB is the CEO of Big > Battery. I don’t know that to be a fact. > Which is also somehow related to signature solar/ EG4. > > My guess is that if/when OB resurfaces it won’t have the same products. > It’ll just be an old name selling new products and they won’t be dealing > with old legacy products, warranty or MX or tech support. > > I could be way wrong. > > But anyone trying to keep a product line going wouldn’t just stop all > communication for a few months. > > Maybe someone who has been an OB distributor might know more about what’s > up? I no longer have any of those contacts. > > New world, fellow wrenches. > > Jay > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Sat Jul 20 20:37:53 2024 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2024 20:37:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback in general In-Reply-To: References: <3CF5DB19-FCEB-45BE-9DB9-3F621CD03825@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have been testing a pre-production model of Midnite's AIO (All in One) inverter/charge controller in my off-grid house (replaced a dual stacked VFX3648, Midnite Classic200 and an AC coupled SunnyBoy), and while I haven't put it through any serious tests yet, I am impressed with its functions and spec's. I also have a couple of 5kWh LiFePO4 batteries with their BMS that I just added to the system (replacing a 1300 ah 2-volt Lead-Acid battery bank), and the integration was seamless (really plug and play, compared to an often more complicated pairing between other all-in-ones I've been installing (Sol-Ark, Fortress). I've gotten a sneak peak at their monitoring site which is still under intensive development, and what I've seen looks pretty good. I was not a fan of the all-in-ones when they started to flood the market (Sonnen, Pika/Generac, etc.) especially ones with the batteries integrated. But I have converted over to them almost exclusively as they are much simpler for my clients to understand - their programming and operation as well as their communications are much better integrated and cleaner in my opinion. They of course have had power issues and firmware headaches, which is why I am sticking to inverters and batteries from the same manufacturer. I will keep you all up to date on my experience with the production model of the Midnite AIO as I install them and with the Midnite LiFePO4 batteries as they become available. Howie Michaelson On Sat, Jul 20, 2024 at 7:26 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > James Showalter from Signature Solar and Eric Lundgren from Big Battery > purchased Outback Solar. I have had terrible tech support experiences from > both of those outfits, they tend to conveniently "forget" your engineering > and NEC code compliance support requests when the answer is just simply > "no, not yet UL listed" or "we don't know if that feature works or not." > I'm not sure how these prolific suppliers of cheap crap products with > terrible QC and NIB failure rates intend to compete, but my guess is that > they have control of the big crap overseas product pipeline nozzle and > intend to steer the huge stream of sewage in our direction. Sol-Ark just > imports Deye products and retrofits them with their own upgrades and > firmware. Magnum has vanished, much to my dismay as my own system is Magnum > as are dozens of my customers. > > Us off-grid folks still have a couple guys named boB and Robin at Midnite > that still manufacture, sell and support good products. Maybe Morningstar > will up their game into larger inverters. Why are all these shady import > companies based in Texas? Inquiring minds want to know! BTW, I hate > all-in-ones, never had a single good experience, just endless firmware and > comms updates and such simple issues resulting in multiple truck rolls. > > I miss Lones Tuss of Outback calling me back on a Friday evening at 7PM > and remotely diagnosing my client's VFX / Mate 3S issues whilst doing his > laundry at home, after I submitted a ticket earlier that day. The client > seriously thought I was pulling a practical joke on him until I put Lones > on speaker. > > Strange new world for us off-grid folks. I'll have to stick with the very > few companies left that I trust. Yes, yes, Schneider, but their tech > support is almost impenetrable. > > Our strange new off-grid world seems to be destined as crap from Alibaba > and Amazon, and it all smells rather off to me, like the "fresh fish" at a > run-down Safeway in eastern Kansas.... > > Dan Fink > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > NABCEP PV Associate > d anbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > > > On Sat, Jul 20, 2024 at 3:22 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I just checked the OB forums page and there is nothing current. >> >> One thing I found says that the new president of OB is the CEO of Big >> Battery. I don’t know that to be a fact. >> Which is also somehow related to signature solar/ EG4. >> >> My guess is that if/when OB resurfaces it won’t have the same products. >> It’ll just be an old name selling new products and they won’t be dealing >> with old legacy products, warranty or MX or tech support. >> >> I could be way wrong. >> >> But anyone trying to keep a product line going wouldn’t just stop all >> communication for a few months. >> >> Maybe someone who has been an OB distributor might know more about what’s >> up? I no longer have any of those contacts. >> >> New world, fellow wrenches. >> >> Jay >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Jul 21 09:28:01 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2024 07:28:01 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback in general In-Reply-To: References: <3CF5DB19-FCEB-45BE-9DB9-3F621CD03825@gmail.com> Message-ID: HI Howie, Does the AIO communicate with other brands of batteries? I concure about using batteries/inverters from same OEM, its my preference. Jay > On Jul 20, 2024, at 6:37 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I have been testing a pre-production model of Midnite's AIO (All in One) inverter/charge controller in my off-grid house (replaced a dual stacked VFX3648, Midnite Classic200 and an AC coupled SunnyBoy), and while I haven't put it through any serious tests yet, I am impressed with its functions and spec's. I also have a couple of 5kWh LiFePO4 batteries with their BMS that I just added to the system (replacing a 1300 ah 2-volt Lead-Acid battery bank), and the integration was seamless (really plug and play, compared to an often more complicated pairing between other all-in-ones I've been installing (Sol-Ark, Fortress). I've gotten a sneak peak at their monitoring site which is still under intensive development, and what I've seen looks pretty good. I was not a fan of the all-in-ones when they started to flood the market (Sonnen, Pika/Generac, etc.) especially ones with the batteries integrated. But I have converted over to them almost exclusively as they are much simpler for my clients to understand - their programming and operation as well as their communications are much better integrated and cleaner in my opinion. They of course have had power issues and firmware headaches, which is why I am sticking to inverters and batteries from the same manufacturer. I will keep you all up to date on my experience with the production model of the Midnite AIO as I install them and with the Midnite LiFePO4 batteries as they become available. > > Howie Michaelson > > > On Sat, Jul 20, 2024 at 7:26 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches > wrote: > James Showalter from Signature Solar and Eric Lundgren from Big Battery purchased Outback Solar. I have had terrible tech support experiences from both of those outfits, they tend to conveniently "forget" your engineering and NEC code compliance support requests when the answer is just simply "no, not yet UL listed" or "we don't know if that feature works or not." I'm not sure how these prolific suppliers of cheap crap products with terrible QC and NIB failure rates intend to compete, but my guess is that they have control of the big crap overseas product pipeline nozzle and intend to steer the huge stream of sewage in our direction. Sol-Ark just imports Deye products and retrofits them with their own upgrades and firmware. Magnum has vanished, much to my dismay as my own system is Magnum as are dozens of my customers. > > Us off-grid folks still have a couple guys named boB and Robin at Midnite that still manufacture, sell and support good products. Maybe Morningstar will up their game into larger inverters. Why are all these shady import companies based in Texas? Inquiring minds want to know! BTW, I hate all-in-ones, never had a single good experience, just endless firmware and comms updates and such simple issues resulting in multiple truck rolls. > > I miss Lones Tuss of Outback calling me back on a Friday evening at 7PM and remotely diagnosing my client's VFX / Mate 3S issues whilst doing his laundry at home, after I submitted a ticket earlier that day. The client seriously thought I was pulling a practical joke on him until I put Lones on speaker. > > Strange new world for us off-grid folks. I'll have to stick with the very few companies left that I trust. Yes, yes, Schneider, but their tech support is almost impenetrable. > > Our strange new off-grid world seems to be destined as crap from Alibaba and Amazon, and it all smells rather off to me, like the "fresh fish" at a run-down Safeway in eastern Kansas.... > > Dan Fink > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > NABCEP PV Associate > d anbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > > > On Sat, Jul 20, 2024 at 3:22 PM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > I just checked the OB forums page and there is nothing current. > > One thing I found says that the new president of OB is the CEO of Big Battery. I don’t know that to be a fact. > Which is also somehow related to signature solar/ EG4. > > My guess is that if/when OB resurfaces it won’t have the same products. It’ll just be an old name selling new products and they won’t be dealing with old legacy products, warranty or MX or tech support. > > I could be way wrong. > > But anyone trying to keep a product line going wouldn’t just stop all communication for a few months. > > Maybe someone who has been an OB distributor might know more about what’s up? I no longer have any of those contacts. > > New world, fellow wrenches. > > Jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Jul 21 09:37:58 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2024 07:37:58 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback in general In-Reply-To: References: <3CF5DB19-FCEB-45BE-9DB9-3F621CD03825@gmail.com> Message-ID: HI Dan, I can only talk about my experience. Outback tech support has been going downhill for years and if hadn't been for Lones would have really sucked. The support I’ve got from Signature has been good. So far its only been for programming and commisssioning help but its been quick, easy and accurate. Conversely getting someone on the line from fortress is a disaster, same inverter. I have 5 of the LUX inverters installed and so far no issues. I don’t use Sol Ark due to a few competent friends who have had major fights with them over warranty issues. One issue I’ve mentioned before was a system that was designed by Sol ark, and monitored as well. There were inverter firmware issues no one knew about which caused multiple failures of which they tried to charge my buddy for, yes under warranty. I am waiting to be able to get the right project for the AIO. Jay > On Jul 20, 2024, at 5:24 PM, Dan Fink via RE-wrenches wrote: > > James Showalter from Signature Solar and Eric Lundgren from Big Battery purchased Outback Solar. I have had terrible tech support experiences from both of those outfits, they tend to conveniently "forget" your engineering and NEC code compliance support requests when the answer is just simply "no, not yet UL listed" or "we don't know if that feature works or not." I'm not sure how these prolific suppliers of cheap crap products with terrible QC and NIB failure rates intend to compete, but my guess is that they have control of the big crap overseas product pipeline nozzle and intend to steer the huge stream of sewage in our direction. Sol-Ark just imports Deye products and retrofits them with their own upgrades and firmware. Magnum has vanished, much to my dismay as my own system is Magnum as are dozens of my customers. > > Us off-grid folks still have a couple guys named boB and Robin at Midnite that still manufacture, sell and support good products. Maybe Morningstar will up their game into larger inverters. Why are all these shady import companies based in Texas? Inquiring minds want to know! BTW, I hate all-in-ones, never had a single good experience, just endless firmware and comms updates and such simple issues resulting in multiple truck rolls. > > I miss Lones Tuss of Outback calling me back on a Friday evening at 7PM and remotely diagnosing my client's VFX / Mate 3S issues whilst doing his laundry at home, after I submitted a ticket earlier that day. The client seriously thought I was pulling a practical joke on him until I put Lones on speaker. > > Strange new world for us off-grid folks. I'll have to stick with the very few companies left that I trust. Yes, yes, Schneider, but their tech support is almost impenetrable. > > Our strange new off-grid world seems to be destined as crap from Alibaba and Amazon, and it all smells rather off to me, like the "fresh fish" at a run-down Safeway in eastern Kansas.... > > Dan Fink > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > NABCEP PV Associate > d anbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > > > On Sat, Jul 20, 2024 at 3:22 PM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > I just checked the OB forums page and there is nothing current. > > One thing I found says that the new president of OB is the CEO of Big Battery. I don’t know that to be a fact. > Which is also somehow related to signature solar/ EG4. > > My guess is that if/when OB resurfaces it won’t have the same products. It’ll just be an old name selling new products and they won’t be dealing with old legacy products, warranty or MX or tech support. > > I could be way wrong. > > But anyone trying to keep a product line going wouldn’t just stop all communication for a few months. > > Maybe someone who has been an OB distributor might know more about what’s up? I no longer have any of those contacts. > > New world, fellow wrenches. > > Jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Sun Jul 21 09:47:03 2024 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2024 09:47:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Another Mate 3 programming issues In-Reply-To: <1BB6C8E7-FCCB-444F-978A-546C745CAA43@gmail.com> References: <97226639-cc56-4967-a0a1-182cf534d7ad@entech-engineering.com> <1BB6C8E7-FCCB-444F-978A-546C745CAA43@gmail.com> Message-ID: <599efff9-fcb7-4e20-a138-d2cb0b8e42ba@entech-engineering.com> I saw the NA and was?  This has been a problem since I took over the system.  I was hired to maintain as the owner is a retired ship mechanic and is very risk adverse. So, in any case, this was how it looked at least two years ago, when I started working for him. There is an active light on the Hub I did replace the cable to no avail. I am pretty sure this is the original CC, so it could be as was mentioned earlier; a problem that cannot be fixed due to the processor difference. Thank you to everyone, I will continue going through the responses.  Chris On 7/19/2024 12:30 PM, jay wrote: > HI Chris, > > Can you give us more data? > > Like is this a new problem, or it only started after X? > > Since its not seeing the port ( NA) it could be the CC or the HUB, or > the cable. > the hub will show an active LED light if its connecting to anything on > that port. > > You can try plugging into the CC directly to see if it reads it, > probably easier with another mate. > > It just sucks to not have tech support or anyone on wrenches from some > OEMS > > Jay > > > >> On Jul 19, 2024, at 10:13 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> This is grid tied system with all firmware updates that the Mate 3s >> recognizes. I cannot figure this blank data menu out.  I have to >> program the battery ABS, FLOAT settings from the FM60 CC.  System is >> 12 years old so no Tech support available even if they answer the >> phone.... >> >> Has anyone have advice for if this is normal, or if there seems to be >> an issue? Used a spare Mate 3s with no difference.  Thank you, Chris >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Christopher Warfel >>           ENTECH Engineering Inc. >>    PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>                   401-477-5773 >> >> >> > Menu.jpg>_______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -- Christopher Warfel           ENTECH Engineering Inc.    PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                   401-477-5773 EE Logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/vcard Size: 203 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Sun Jul 21 09:49:44 2024 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2024 09:49:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Another Mate 3 programming issues In-Reply-To: References: <97226639-cc56-4967-a0a1-182cf534d7ad@entech-engineering.com> <1BB6C8E7-FCCB-444F-978A-546C745CAA43@gmail.com> Message-ID: Ok, this sounds like what I have, so probably that's not going to change and just have to live with it. All said and done, I've installed maybe 20 Outbacks out here, and very very few issues over many years. On 7/19/2024 12:59 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote: > Not sure if this helps but I had installed a full blown Outback  twin > VFX 3648 with two MX60's with the old green cabinets back in 2005. > Last year I had to replace the two inverters with the new FXR as the > VFX is discontinued. In order to do this I had to dump the old oval > mate and move up to the Mate3s, as well as replace the old Hub 10.1 > and use the newer 10.3. When all said and done, the Mate saw the old > MX60's but you were unable to make changes or access any > data/settings. One other note, the 2nd inverter goes on port 7 of the > Hub, not port 2 as we've been use to in the past. > > Christopher > > On Fri, Jul 19, 2024 at 12:30 PM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > HI Chris, > > Can you give us more data? > > Like is this a new problem, or it only started after X? > > Since its not seeing the port ( NA) it could be the CC or the HUB, > or the cable. > the hub will show an active LED light if its connecting to > anything on that port. > > You can try plugging into the CC directly to see if it reads it, > probably easier with another mate. > > It just sucks to not have tech support or anyone on wrenches from > some OEMS > > Jay > > > >> On Jul 19, 2024, at 10:13 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> This is grid tied system with all firmware updates that the Mate >> 3s recognizes. I cannot figure this blank data menu out.  I have >> to program the battery ABS, FLOAT settings from the FM60 CC.  >> System is 12 years old so no Tech support available even if they >> answer the phone.... >> >> Has anyone have advice for if this is normal, or if there seems >> to be an issue? Used a spare Mate 3s with no difference.  Thank >> you, Chris >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Christopher Warfel >>           ENTECH Engineering Inc. >>    PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>                   401-477-5773 >> >> >> > Menu.jpg>_______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >> try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > /Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > //5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > //www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: > chris at solarandwindfx.com/ > > / > / > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > -- Christopher Warfel           ENTECH Engineering Inc.    PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                   401-477-5773 EE Logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/vcard Size: 203 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Sun Jul 21 10:31:10 2024 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2024 10:31:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback in general In-Reply-To: References: <3CF5DB19-FCEB-45BE-9DB9-3F621CD03825@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay The AIO will work with any battery that uses the Pylon battery protocall. You can find some Youtube videos of it being used with the EG4 wall mount batteries. On Sun, Jul 21, 2024 at 9:29 AM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > HI Howie, > > Does the AIO communicate with other brands of batteries? > > I concure about using batteries/inverters from same OEM, its my > preference. > > Jay > > On Jul 20, 2024, at 6:37 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > I have been testing a pre-production model of Midnite's AIO (All in One) > inverter/charge controller in my off-grid house (replaced a dual stacked > VFX3648, Midnite Classic200 and an AC coupled SunnyBoy), and while I > haven't put it through any serious tests yet, I am impressed with its > functions and spec's. I also have a couple of 5kWh LiFePO4 batteries with > their BMS that I just added to the system (replacing a 1300 ah 2-volt > Lead-Acid battery bank), and the integration was seamless (really plug and > play, compared to an often more complicated pairing between other > all-in-ones I've been installing (Sol-Ark, Fortress). I've gotten a sneak > peak at their monitoring site which is still under intensive development, > and what I've seen looks pretty good. I was not a fan of the all-in-ones > when they started to flood the market (Sonnen, Pika/Generac, etc.) > especially ones with the batteries integrated. But I have converted over > to them almost exclusively as they are much simpler for my clients to > understand - their programming and operation as well as their > communications are much better integrated and cleaner in my opinion. They > of course have had power issues and firmware headaches, which is why I am > sticking to inverters and batteries from the same manufacturer. I will keep > you all up to date on my experience with the production model of the > Midnite AIO as I install them and with the Midnite LiFePO4 batteries as > they become available. > > Howie Michaelson > > > On Sat, Jul 20, 2024 at 7:26 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> James Showalter from Signature Solar and Eric Lundgren from Big Battery >> purchased Outback Solar. I have had terrible tech support experiences from >> both of those outfits, they tend to conveniently "forget" your engineering >> and NEC code compliance support requests when the answer is just simply >> "no, not yet UL listed" or "we don't know if that feature works or not." >> I'm not sure how these prolific suppliers of cheap crap products with >> terrible QC and NIB failure rates intend to compete, but my guess is that >> they have control of the big crap overseas product pipeline nozzle and >> intend to steer the huge stream of sewage in our direction. Sol-Ark just >> imports Deye products and retrofits them with their own upgrades and >> firmware. Magnum has vanished, much to my dismay as my own system is Magnum >> as are dozens of my customers. >> >> Us off-grid folks still have a couple guys named boB and Robin at Midnite >> that still manufacture, sell and support good products. Maybe Morningstar >> will up their game into larger inverters. Why are all these shady import >> companies based in Texas? Inquiring minds want to know! BTW, I hate >> all-in-ones, never had a single good experience, just endless firmware and >> comms updates and such simple issues resulting in multiple truck rolls. >> >> I miss Lones Tuss of Outback calling me back on a Friday evening at 7PM >> and remotely diagnosing my client's VFX / Mate 3S issues whilst doing his >> laundry at home, after I submitted a ticket earlier that day. The client >> seriously thought I was pulling a practical joke on him until I put Lones >> on speaker. >> >> Strange new world for us off-grid folks. I'll have to stick with the very >> few companies left that I trust. Yes, yes, Schneider, but their tech >> support is almost impenetrable. >> >> Our strange new off-grid world seems to be destined as crap from Alibaba >> and Amazon, and it all smells rather off to me, like the "fresh fish" at a >> run-down Safeway in eastern Kansas.... >> >> Dan Fink >> Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC >> IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation >> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector >> NABCEP PV Associate >> d anbob88 at gmail.com >> 970-672-4342 >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Jul 20, 2024 at 3:22 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I just checked the OB forums page and there is nothing current. >>> >>> One thing I found says that the new president of OB is the CEO of Big >>> Battery. I don’t know that to be a fact. >>> Which is also somehow related to signature solar/ EG4. >>> >>> My guess is that if/when OB resurfaces it won’t have the same products. >>> It’ll just be an old name selling new products and they won’t be dealing >>> with old legacy products, warranty or MX or tech support. >>> >>> I could be way wrong. >>> >>> But anyone trying to keep a product line going wouldn’t just stop all >>> communication for a few months. >>> >>> Maybe someone who has been an OB distributor might know more about >>> what’s up? I no longer have any of those contacts. >>> >>> New world, fellow wrenches. >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Sun Jul 21 10:36:34 2024 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2024 10:36:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback in general In-Reply-To: References: <3CF5DB19-FCEB-45BE-9DB9-3F621CD03825@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, I have not tried it with anything but the Midnite BMS, so no personal experience. Midnite says it is compatible with others, and I will take William's word that it is compatible with Pylon protocol. Howie On Sun, Jul 21, 2024, 10:32 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Jay > > The AIO will work with any battery that uses the Pylon battery protocall. > You can find some Youtube videos of it being used with the EG4 wall mount > batteries. > > On Sun, Jul 21, 2024 at 9:29 AM jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> HI Howie, >> >> Does the AIO communicate with other brands of batteries? >> >> I concure about using batteries/inverters from same OEM, its my >> preference. >> >> Jay >> >> On Jul 20, 2024, at 6:37 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> I have been testing a pre-production model of Midnite's AIO (All in One) >> inverter/charge controller in my off-grid house (replaced a dual stacked >> VFX3648, Midnite Classic200 and an AC coupled SunnyBoy), and while I >> haven't put it through any serious tests yet, I am impressed with its >> functions and spec's. I also have a couple of 5kWh LiFePO4 batteries with >> their BMS that I just added to the system (replacing a 1300 ah 2-volt >> Lead-Acid battery bank), and the integration was seamless (really plug and >> play, compared to an often more complicated pairing between other >> all-in-ones I've been installing (Sol-Ark, Fortress). I've gotten a sneak >> peak at their monitoring site which is still under intensive development, >> and what I've seen looks pretty good. I was not a fan of the all-in-ones >> when they started to flood the market (Sonnen, Pika/Generac, etc.) >> especially ones with the batteries integrated. But I have converted over >> to them almost exclusively as they are much simpler for my clients to >> understand - their programming and operation as well as their >> communications are much better integrated and cleaner in my opinion. They >> of course have had power issues and firmware headaches, which is why I am >> sticking to inverters and batteries from the same manufacturer. I will keep >> you all up to date on my experience with the production model of the >> Midnite AIO as I install them and with the Midnite LiFePO4 batteries as >> they become available. >> >> Howie Michaelson >> >> >> On Sat, Jul 20, 2024 at 7:26 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> James Showalter from Signature Solar and Eric Lundgren from Big Battery >>> purchased Outback Solar. I have had terrible tech support experiences from >>> both of those outfits, they tend to conveniently "forget" your engineering >>> and NEC code compliance support requests when the answer is just simply >>> "no, not yet UL listed" or "we don't know if that feature works or not." >>> I'm not sure how these prolific suppliers of cheap crap products with >>> terrible QC and NIB failure rates intend to compete, but my guess is that >>> they have control of the big crap overseas product pipeline nozzle and >>> intend to steer the huge stream of sewage in our direction. Sol-Ark just >>> imports Deye products and retrofits them with their own upgrades and >>> firmware. Magnum has vanished, much to my dismay as my own system is Magnum >>> as are dozens of my customers. >>> >>> Us off-grid folks still have a couple guys named boB and Robin at >>> Midnite that still manufacture, sell and support good products. Maybe >>> Morningstar will up their game into larger inverters. Why are all these >>> shady import companies based in Texas? Inquiring minds want to know! BTW, I >>> hate all-in-ones, never had a single good experience, just endless firmware >>> and comms updates and such simple issues resulting in multiple truck rolls. >>> >>> I miss Lones Tuss of Outback calling me back on a Friday evening at 7PM >>> and remotely diagnosing my client's VFX / Mate 3S issues whilst doing his >>> laundry at home, after I submitted a ticket earlier that day. The client >>> seriously thought I was pulling a practical joke on him until I put Lones >>> on speaker. >>> >>> Strange new world for us off-grid folks. I'll have to stick with the >>> very few companies left that I trust. Yes, yes, Schneider, but their tech >>> support is almost impenetrable. >>> >>> Our strange new off-grid world seems to be destined as crap from Alibaba >>> and Amazon, and it all smells rather off to me, like the "fresh fish" at a >>> run-down Safeway in eastern Kansas.... >>> >>> Dan Fink >>> Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC >>> IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation >>> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector >>> NABCEP PV Associate >>> d anbob88 at gmail.com >>> 970-672-4342 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Jul 20, 2024 at 3:22 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I just checked the OB forums page and there is nothing current. >>>> >>>> One thing I found says that the new president of OB is the CEO of Big >>>> Battery. I don’t know that to be a fact. >>>> Which is also somehow related to signature solar/ EG4. >>>> >>>> My guess is that if/when OB resurfaces it won’t have the same products. >>>> It’ll just be an old name selling new products and they won’t be dealing >>>> with old legacy products, warranty or MX or tech support. >>>> >>>> I could be way wrong. >>>> >>>> But anyone trying to keep a product line going wouldn’t just stop all >>>> communication for a few months. >>>> >>>> Maybe someone who has been an OB distributor might know more about >>>> what’s up? I no longer have any of those contacts. >>>> >>>> New world, fellow wrenches. >>>> >>>> Jay >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Mon Jul 22 11:32:52 2024 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2024 11:32:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Solar AIO question In-Reply-To: References: <3CF5DB19-FCEB-45BE-9DB9-3F621CD03825@gmail.com> Message-ID: I wasn't aware of the new AIO product until this thread.  I downloaded the manual and quick start guide and wanted to ask if this can be used without batteries, and then batteries added later, as with Sol Ark. All the schematics in the AIO show batteries. Searching didn't help with the terms I was using. The reality is I am  66, just picked a Medicare Plan today!, so not too much time on the horizon.  However I have two jobs that want to use batteries later, not now. Thanks for any help. Chris On 7/21/2024 10:36 AM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote: > Jay, > I have not tried it with anything but the Midnite BMS, so no personal > experience.  Midnite says it is compatible with others, and I will > take William's word that it is compatible with Pylon protocol. > Howie > > On Sun, Jul 21, 2024, 10:32 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi Jay > > The AIO will work with any battery that uses the Pylon battery > protocall. > You can find some Youtube videos of it being used with the EG4 > wall mount batteries. > > On Sun, Jul 21, 2024 at 9:29 AM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > HI Howie, > > Does the AIO communicate with other brands of batteries? > > I concure about using batteries/inverters from same OEM, its > my preference. > > Jay > >> On Jul 20, 2024, at 6:37 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> I have been testing a pre-production model of Midnite's AIO >> (All in One) inverter/charge controller in my off-grid house >> (replaced a dual stacked VFX3648, Midnite Classic200 and an >> AC coupled SunnyBoy), and while I haven't put it through any >> serious tests yet, I am impressed with its functions and >> spec's.  I also have a couple of 5kWh LiFePO4 batteries with >> their BMS that I just added to the system (replacing a 1300 >> ah 2-volt Lead-Acid battery bank), and the integration was >> seamless (really plug and play, compared to an often more >> complicated pairing between other all-in-ones I've been >> installing (Sol-Ark, Fortress). I've gotten a sneak peak at >> their monitoring site which is still under intensive >> development, and what I've seen looks pretty good. I was not >> a fan of the all-in-ones when they started to flood the >> market (Sonnen, Pika/Generac, etc.) especially ones with the >> batteries integrated.  But I have converted over to them >> almost exclusively as they are much simpler for my clients to >> understand - their programming and operation as well as their >> communications are much better integrated and cleaner in my >> opinion. They of course have had power issues and firmware >> headaches, which is why I am sticking to inverters and >> batteries from the same manufacturer. I will keep you all up >> to date on my experience with the production model of the >> Midnite AIO as I install them and with the Midnite LiFePO4 >> batteries as they become available. >> >> Howie Michaelson >> >> >> On Sat, Jul 20, 2024 at 7:26 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> James Showalter from Signature Solar and Eric Lundgren >> from Big Battery purchased Outback Solar. I have had >> terrible tech support experiences from both of those >> outfits, they tend to conveniently "forget" your >> engineering and NEC code compliance support requests when >> the answer is just simply "no, not yet UL listed" or "we >> don't know if that feature works or not." I'm not sure >> how these prolific suppliers of cheap crap products with >> terrible QC and NIB failure rates intend to compete, but >> my guess is that they have control of the big crap >> overseas product pipeline nozzle and intend to steer the >> huge stream of sewage in our direction. Sol-Ark just >> imports Deye products and retrofits them with their own >> upgrades and firmware. Magnum has vanished, much to my >> dismay as my own system is Magnum as are dozens of my >> customers. >> >> Us off-grid folks still have a couple guys named boB and >> Robin at Midnite that still manufacture, sell and support >> good products. Maybe Morningstar will up their game into >> larger inverters. Why are all these shady import >> companies based in Texas? Inquiring minds want to know! >> BTW, I hate all-in-ones, never had a single good >> experience, just endless firmware and comms updates and >> such simple issues resulting in multiple truck rolls. >> >> I miss Lones Tuss of Outback calling me back on a Friday >> evening at 7PM and remotely diagnosing my client's VFX / >> Mate 3S issues whilst doing his laundry at home, after I >> submitted a ticket earlier that day. The client seriously >> thought I was pulling a practical joke on him until I put >> Lones on speaker. >> >> Strange new world for us off-grid folks. I'll have to >> stick with the very few companies left that I trust. Yes, >> yes, Schneider, but their tech support is almost >> impenetrable. >> >> Our strange new off-grid world seems to be destined as >> crap from Alibaba and Amazon, and it all smells rather >> off to me, like the "fresh fish" at a run-down Safeway in >> eastern Kansas.... >> >> Dan Fink >> Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC >> IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation >> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector >> NABCEP PV Associate >> d >> anbob88 at gmail.com >> 970-672-4342 >> >> >> >> On Sat, Jul 20, 2024 at 3:22 PM Jay via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> I just checked the OB forums page and there is >> nothing current. >> >> One thing I found says that the new president of OB >> is the CEO of Big Battery. I don’t know that to be a >> fact. >> Which is also somehow related to signature solar/ EG4. >> >> My guess is that if/when OB resurfaces it won’t have >> the same products. It’ll just be an old name selling >> new products and they won’t be dealing with old >> legacy products, warranty or MX or tech support. >> >> I could be way wrong. >> >> But anyone trying to keep a product line going >> wouldn’t just stop all communication for a few months. >> >> Maybe someone who has been an OB distributor might >> know more about what’s up?  I no longer have any of >> those contacts. >> >> New world, fellow wrenches. >> >> Jay >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one >> doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >> work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't > work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel           ENTECH Engineering Inc.    PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                   401-477-5773 EE Logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/vcard Size: 203 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Mon Jul 22 11:43:46 2024 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2024 11:43:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Solar AIO question In-Reply-To: References: <3CF5DB19-FCEB-45BE-9DB9-3F621CD03825@gmail.com> Message-ID: The AIO can be used as a standard GridTie inverter without batteries. So can replace current inverters or install new and add storage at a later date. On Mon, Jul 22, 2024 at 11:33 AM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I wasn't aware of the new AIO product until this thread. I downloaded the > manual and quick start guide and wanted to ask if this can be used without > batteries, and then batteries added later, as with Sol Ark. All the > schematics in the AIO show batteries. Searching didn't help with the > terms I was using. > > The reality is I am 66, just picked a Medicare Plan today!, so not too > much time on the horizon. However I have two jobs that want to use > batteries later, not now. > > Thanks for any help. Chris > > > > > On 7/21/2024 10:36 AM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Jay, > I have not tried it with anything but the Midnite BMS, so no personal > experience. Midnite says it is compatible with others, and I will take > William's word that it is compatible with Pylon protocol. > Howie > > On Sun, Jul 21, 2024, 10:32 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi Jay >> >> The AIO will work with any battery that uses the Pylon battery >> protocall. >> You can find some Youtube videos of it being used with the EG4 wall mount >> batteries. >> >> On Sun, Jul 21, 2024 at 9:29 AM jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> HI Howie, >>> >>> Does the AIO communicate with other brands of batteries? >>> >>> I concure about using batteries/inverters from same OEM, its my >>> preference. >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> On Jul 20, 2024, at 6:37 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> I have been testing a pre-production model of Midnite's AIO (All in One) >>> inverter/charge controller in my off-grid house (replaced a dual stacked >>> VFX3648, Midnite Classic200 and an AC coupled SunnyBoy), and while I >>> haven't put it through any serious tests yet, I am impressed with its >>> functions and spec's. I also have a couple of 5kWh LiFePO4 batteries with >>> their BMS that I just added to the system (replacing a 1300 ah 2-volt >>> Lead-Acid battery bank), and the integration was seamless (really plug and >>> play, compared to an often more complicated pairing between other >>> all-in-ones I've been installing (Sol-Ark, Fortress). I've gotten a sneak >>> peak at their monitoring site which is still under intensive development, >>> and what I've seen looks pretty good. I was not a fan of the all-in-ones >>> when they started to flood the market (Sonnen, Pika/Generac, etc.) >>> especially ones with the batteries integrated. But I have converted over >>> to them almost exclusively as they are much simpler for my clients to >>> understand - their programming and operation as well as their >>> communications are much better integrated and cleaner in my opinion. They >>> of course have had power issues and firmware headaches, which is why I am >>> sticking to inverters and batteries from the same manufacturer. I will keep >>> you all up to date on my experience with the production model of the >>> Midnite AIO as I install them and with the Midnite LiFePO4 batteries as >>> they become available. >>> >>> Howie Michaelson >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Jul 20, 2024 at 7:26 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> James Showalter from Signature Solar and Eric Lundgren from Big Battery >>>> purchased Outback Solar. I have had terrible tech support experiences from >>>> both of those outfits, they tend to conveniently "forget" your engineering >>>> and NEC code compliance support requests when the answer is just simply >>>> "no, not yet UL listed" or "we don't know if that feature works or not." >>>> I'm not sure how these prolific suppliers of cheap crap products with >>>> terrible QC and NIB failure rates intend to compete, but my guess is that >>>> they have control of the big crap overseas product pipeline nozzle and >>>> intend to steer the huge stream of sewage in our direction. Sol-Ark just >>>> imports Deye products and retrofits them with their own upgrades and >>>> firmware. Magnum has vanished, much to my dismay as my own system is Magnum >>>> as are dozens of my customers. >>>> >>>> Us off-grid folks still have a couple guys named boB and Robin at >>>> Midnite that still manufacture, sell and support good products. Maybe >>>> Morningstar will up their game into larger inverters. Why are all these >>>> shady import companies based in Texas? Inquiring minds want to know! BTW, I >>>> hate all-in-ones, never had a single good experience, just endless firmware >>>> and comms updates and such simple issues resulting in multiple truck rolls. >>>> >>>> I miss Lones Tuss of Outback calling me back on a Friday evening at 7PM >>>> and remotely diagnosing my client's VFX / Mate 3S issues whilst doing his >>>> laundry at home, after I submitted a ticket earlier that day. The client >>>> seriously thought I was pulling a practical joke on him until I put Lones >>>> on speaker. >>>> >>>> Strange new world for us off-grid folks. I'll have to stick with the >>>> very few companies left that I trust. Yes, yes, Schneider, but their tech >>>> support is almost impenetrable. >>>> >>>> Our strange new off-grid world seems to be destined as crap from >>>> Alibaba and Amazon, and it all smells rather off to me, like the "fresh >>>> fish" at a run-down Safeway in eastern Kansas.... >>>> >>>> Dan Fink >>>> Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC >>>> IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation >>>> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector >>>> NABCEP PV Associate >>>> d anbob88 at gmail.com >>>> 970-672-4342 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jul 20, 2024 at 3:22 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I just checked the OB forums page and there is nothing current. >>>>> >>>>> One thing I found says that the new president of OB is the CEO of Big >>>>> Battery. I don’t know that to be a fact. >>>>> Which is also somehow related to signature solar/ EG4. >>>>> >>>>> My guess is that if/when OB resurfaces it won’t have the same >>>>> products. It’ll just be an old name selling new products and they won’t be >>>>> dealing with old legacy products, warranty or MX or tech support. >>>>> >>>>> I could be way wrong. >>>>> >>>>> But anyone trying to keep a product line going wouldn’t just stop all >>>>> communication for a few months. >>>>> >>>>> Maybe someone who has been an OB distributor might know more about >>>>> what’s up? I no longer have any of those contacts. >>>>> >>>>> New world, fellow wrenches. >>>>> >>>>> Jay >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > Christopher Warfel > ENTECH Engineering Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-477-5773 > [image: EE Logo] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Jul 22 17:00:51 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2024 15:00:51 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] workhorse pumps Message-ID: <2B64B162-1A2D-4CAB-B6E3-F8776D834EFD@gmail.com> Does anyone know anything about this company? https://workhorsepumps.com I have someone asking me about it. thanks in advanced. jay From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Mon Jul 22 17:10:09 2024 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2024 14:10:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] workhorse pumps In-Reply-To: <2B64B162-1A2D-4CAB-B6E3-F8776D834EFD@gmail.com> References: <2B64B162-1A2D-4CAB-B6E3-F8776D834EFD@gmail.com> Message-ID: My pump guy (he's 82 and worked in the business since he was a kid) likes them. He tears pumps apart for fun and says they are built well but has only about three years with them. I might give one a go since the price is good. On Mon, Jul 22, 2024 at 2:01 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Does anyone know anything about this company? > > https://workhorsepumps.com > > I have someone asking me about it. > > thanks in advanced. > > jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Jul 22 17:13:52 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2024 15:13:52 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] workhorse pumps In-Reply-To: References: <2B64B162-1A2D-4CAB-B6E3-F8776D834EFD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <233130FE-0DD2-452D-8593-57145DD1C60A@gmail.com> appreciated They have a really wide range. Another brand I’ve worked on is RPS thanks jay > On Jul 22, 2024, at 3:10 PM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > My pump guy (he's 82 and worked in the business since he was a kid) likes them. He tears pumps apart for fun and says they are built well but has only about three years with them. I might give one a go since the price is good. > > On Mon, Jul 22, 2024 at 2:01 PM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Does anyone know anything about this company? > > https://workhorsepumps.com > > I have someone asking me about it. > > thanks in advanced. > > jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > Morningstar Electric Inc > PO Box 1494 > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > 530-921-0560 > CSLB 1116835 > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jul 23 18:09:19 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 16:09:19 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] have a laugh Message-ID: <7624B280-B9ED-4066-A718-114A8F54C6BC@gmail.com> Same person asking about the pump was also asking about the following. I’d never heard of it either. Looks like from a 1970’s sci fi movie https://batteryevo.com/product/walrus-180ah-13-kwh-ac110-220v-72n/ 72v battery, non UL, no real data ( surprise) super narrow PV window. Just bizarre what’s out there. Jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Jul 23 18:33:37 2024 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 15:33:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] have a laugh In-Reply-To: <7624B280-B9ED-4066-A718-114A8F54C6BC@gmail.com> References: <7624B280-B9ED-4066-A718-114A8F54C6BC@gmail.com> Message-ID: NOPE, NIMBY On Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 3:10 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Same person asking about the pump was also asking about the following. > > I’d never heard of it either. Looks like from a 1970’s sci fi movie > > https://batteryevo.com/product/walrus-180ah-13-kwh-ac110-220v-72n/ > > > 72v battery, non UL, no real data ( surprise) super narrow PV window. > > Just bizarre what’s out there. > > Jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Tue Jul 23 18:36:37 2024 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 22:36:37 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] have a laugh In-Reply-To: <7624B280-B9ED-4066-A718-114A8F54C6BC@gmail.com> References: <7624B280-B9ED-4066-A718-114A8F54C6BC@gmail.com> Message-ID: I had to call:) Because it is on wheels it is considered mobile & not requiring UL... I asked what about liability in the event of a fire, "oh that has never happened why would that happen?" I asked about tie in & they are sending a manual. I see how this could be used in place of a 13KW generator sitting there charged up. Good for 5-8 hours.. no gas to go bad no oil to change no starter battery hook it up via a transfer switch or a gentran type of critical loads panel Just do not want to be the first kid on the block to buy one. _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: jay via RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] have a laugh Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 22:09:19 +0000 Size: 11140 URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Tue Jul 23 19:36:13 2024 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 19:36:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] have a laugh In-Reply-To: <7624B280-B9ED-4066-A718-114A8F54C6BC@gmail.com> References: <7624B280-B9ED-4066-A718-114A8F54C6BC@gmail.com> Message-ID: Unfortunately it is back ordered, although it looks like you can still order the 2 50A extension cords. Howie Michaelson On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 6:10 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Same person asking about the pump was also asking about the following. > > I’d never heard of it either. Looks like from a 1970’s sci fi movie > > https://batteryevo.com/product/walrus-180ah-13-kwh-ac110-220v-72n/ > > > 72v battery, non UL, no real data ( surprise) super narrow PV window. > > Just bizarre what’s out there. > > Jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Tue Jul 23 19:37:04 2024 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 19:37:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] have a laugh In-Reply-To: <7624B280-B9ED-4066-A718-114A8F54C6BC@gmail.com> References: <7624B280-B9ED-4066-A718-114A8F54C6BC@gmail.com> Message-ID: And conveniently it is on wheels so you can grid tie it virtually anywhere! It seems appropriately named... Howie Michaelson On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 6:10 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Same person asking about the pump was also asking about the following. > > I’d never heard of it either. Looks like from a 1970’s sci fi movie > > https://batteryevo.com/product/walrus-180ah-13-kwh-ac110-220v-72n/ > > > 72v battery, non UL, no real data ( surprise) super narrow PV window. > > Just bizarre what’s out there. > > Jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Jul 24 10:40:20 2024 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 10:40:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM blew on discharge Message-ID: A severely abused bank of Rolls Surrette batteries had one battery off gas heavily on discharge. It seems like the off gassing happens on overcharge, not discharge. What could have caused that? Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Wed Jul 24 11:01:38 2024 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (David Palumbo) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 15:01:38 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM blew on discharge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Drake, Did you monitor the voltage of this cell / battery? Outside chance it had reversed polarity and was sucking energy from the other batteries. It takes a very abused battery bank for this to happen, but I've experienced it where the worst cell in a 2-volt string will flip polarity when the battery bank voltage crashes. Usually, the cell is very hot at that point too. Dave Palumbo ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2024 10:40 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM blew on discharge A severely abused bank of Rolls Surrette batteries had one battery off gas heavily on discharge. It seems like the off gassing happens on overcharge, not discharge. What could have caused that? Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Wed Jul 24 11:04:17 2024 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 08:04:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM blew on discharge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches, The S6-460AGM still gasses about 6 liters of hydrogen per battery per hour while being charged at 2.35vpc or higher, in warmer temperatures, this gassing accelerates. at 40 C this gassing rates double. In AGM batteries there is a pressure vent that allows the battery to gas in these conditions. If you don't have ventilation or this hydrogen gas is ignited it can and will trace back to the battery with the highest concentration of gas, and once it finds compression it'll cook off like a firecracker. It's a good idea to at least have passive ventilation on AGM while FLA needs active ventilation, in warmer locations it's a good idea to have some active ventilation (Cooling helps too) instead of just passive ventilation. I still see a lot of FLA or AGM batteries being installed directly under the inverters, chargers or charge controllers... Hydrogen gasses are lighter than air, so the gas tends to rise vertically. If this gas gets into the power electronics it can cause corrosion within the power electronics and if you get a spark from a relay transition you could get an ignition of the hydrogen gasses causing the battery to blow its top. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 7:41 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > A severely abused bank of Rolls Surrette batteries had one battery off gas > heavily on discharge. It seems like the off gassing happens on overcharge, > not discharge. What could have caused that? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jul 24 11:10:05 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 09:10:05 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM blew on discharge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Drake What do you mean it off gassed? Like blew the top off? > On Jul 24, 2024, at 8:40 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > A severely abused bank of Rolls Surrette batteries had one battery off gas heavily on discharge. It seems like the off gassing happens on overcharge, not discharge. What could have caused that? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Jul 24 11:41:14 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 11:41:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Identify Inverter / Mango Power Message-ID: Can someone help me identify the inverter in the attached picture? Also, any comments on the reputation of Mango Power batteries? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0445.HEIC Type: image/heif Size: 154247 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jul 24 11:49:12 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 09:49:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Identify Inverter / Mango Power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <74F7ACB5-61D4-43F7-88D7-A71E995381E7@gmail.com> I don’t know but it’s form factor is very similar to LUX/deye Handles, door latches, disconnects. I wonder if it’s a Ali express special? Jay > On Jul 24, 2024, at 9:42 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Can someone help me identify the inverter in the attached picture? > > Also, any comments on the reputation of Mango Power batteries? > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Jul 24 17:43:57 2024 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 17:43:57 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM blew on discharge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1562039c31801b8bd6c5e7f42f385b6c@redwoodalliance.org> The owner said it blew out a lot of hot gas, but the lid did not blow off. The system has a mini split on it that was on during summer nights, running off a bank of 8 L-16s. People think since mini splits are energy efficient, they are like LED lighting. --- On 2024-07-24 11:10, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Drake > > What do you mean it off gassed? > > Like blew the top off? > >> On Jul 24, 2024, at 8:40 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches >> wrote: > >> A severely abused bank of Rolls Surrette batteries had one battery off >> gas heavily on discharge. It seems like the off gassing happens on >> overcharge, not discharge. What could have caused that? >> >> Thank you, >> >> Drake >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> Athens Electric LLC >> Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Jul 25 09:28:47 2024 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 07:28:47 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Envy E-stop Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, Does anyone know if the 12kW Envy inverter has remote stop capability? I need an external button to activate rapid shutdown and disable inverter output but I'm not seeing this functionality in the manual. Seems strange to me. Thanks in advance! -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jul 25 09:39:15 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 07:39:15 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Envy E-stop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <30F4EDEF-5014-4F37-A6C2-2A0A5E4133F5@gmail.com> Hi Lewis Yes both the 12 and 18 have RSD It’s a button on the left side. Shuts off AC and PV Jay > On Jul 25, 2024, at 7:30 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Hello Wrenches, > > Does anyone know if the 12kW Envy inverter has remote stop capability? I need an external button to activate rapid shutdown and disable inverter output but I'm not seeing this functionality in the manual. > > Seems strange to me. > > Thanks in advance! > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Thu Jul 25 09:38:57 2024 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 09:38:57 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Envy E-stop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: yes it does. on pg 15 of the install manual. The diagram shows pinouts wilh E-stop connected. These are normally jumpered together when not using an external RSD. On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 9:30 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > Does anyone know if the 12kW Envy inverter has remote stop capability? I > need an external button to activate rapid shutdown and disable inverter > output but I'm not seeing this functionality in the manual. > > Seems strange to me. > > Thanks in advance! > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Thu Jul 25 12:45:13 2024 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 06:45:13 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120/240V to 200V 3 phase (Japanese Electrical Scheme) Message-ID: Aloha All, I have a project that requires powering 6 different pieces of equipment (mostly small motors) from East Japan that require 200V 3 phase (L-L-L) at 50Hz (though 60Hz appears to be OK), a unique electrical scheme for sure. The amp requirement for the various pieces of equipment ranges from 0.75A to 6A. For a total maximum load of 28 amps. The site is off-grid with standard 120/240V North American Electrical Scheme using a Sol-Ark 15kW. My initial plan was to use Digital Phase Converters from MYUNG YOUN ELECTRONICS for each device but after seeing the wiring in the control panel and power distribution box in person there is no room to do this. Plus the entire panel would need to be rewired. Ideally, I would have one device that converts the electricity appropriately (transformer, VFD, etc). I have reached out to several EEs and am awaiting responses. In the meantime I figured the hive mind of the Wrenches group may have some ideas or know somebody that would. As always, thanks for everyone's time. Aloha, Lou Russo Owner lou at spreesolarsystems.com Office - 808 345 6762 Direct Line - 808 731 1907 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Thu Jul 25 12:48:19 2024 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jarvis) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 11:48:19 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120/240V to 200V 3 phase (Japanese Electrical Scheme) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Check out Phase Perfect. -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 (Sent from my phone. My apologies for spelling errors and brevity.) On Thu, Jul 25, 2024, 11:46 AM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Aloha All, > > I have a project that requires powering 6 different pieces of equipment > (mostly small motors) from East Japan that require 200V 3 phase (L-L-L) at > 50Hz (though 60Hz appears to be OK), a unique electrical scheme for sure. > The amp requirement for the various pieces of equipment ranges from 0.75A > to 6A. For a total maximum load of 28 amps. The site is off-grid with > standard 120/240V North American Electrical Scheme using a Sol-Ark 15kW. > > My initial plan was to use Digital Phase Converters from MYUNG YOUN > ELECTRONICS for each device but after seeing the wiring in the control > panel and power distribution box in person there is no room to do this. > Plus the entire panel would need to be rewired. > > Ideally, I would have one device that converts the > electricity appropriately (transformer, VFD, etc). I have reached out to > several EEs and am awaiting responses. > > In the meantime I figured the hive mind of the Wrenches group may have > some ideas or know somebody that would. > > As always, thanks for everyone's time. > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > Owner > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > Office - 808 345 6762 > Direct Line - 808 731 1907 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Thu Jul 25 13:42:57 2024 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 12:42:57 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120/240V to 200V 3 phase (Japanese Electrical Scheme) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think you stated the answer, use a frequency drive, your AC source or even DC source can charge the capacitors in the drive. Call your local ABB drive supplier and they will tell you how to set up. If you need 15 kW I find the drive has to be larger than 15 kW, because you are supplying with single phase and not 3 phase. On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 11:46 AM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Aloha All, > > I have a project that requires powering 6 different pieces of equipment > (mostly small motors) from East Japan that require 200V 3 phase (L-L-L) at > 50Hz (though 60Hz appears to be OK), a unique electrical scheme for sure. > The amp requirement for the various pieces of equipment ranges from 0.75A > to 6A. For a total maximum load of 28 amps. The site is off-grid with > standard 120/240V North American Electrical Scheme using a Sol-Ark 15kW. > > My initial plan was to use Digital Phase Converters from MYUNG YOUN > ELECTRONICS for each device but after seeing the wiring in the control > panel and power distribution box in person there is no room to do this. > Plus the entire panel would need to be rewired. > > Ideally, I would have one device that converts the > electricity appropriately (transformer, VFD, etc). I have reached out to > several EEs and am awaiting responses. > > In the meantime I figured the hive mind of the Wrenches group may have > some ideas or know somebody that would. > > As always, thanks for everyone's time. > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > Owner > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > Office - 808 345 6762 > Direct Line - 808 731 1907 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Jul 25 13:58:42 2024 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 10:58:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120/240V to 200V 3 phase (Japanese Electrical Scheme) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Lou Solark has a 220 50 hz inverter, l did one in South Africa, it's a little hard to get in the states but fewer parts and points of failure On Thu, Jul 25, 2024, 9:46 AM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Aloha All, > > I have a project that requires powering 6 different pieces of equipment > (mostly small motors) from East Japan that require 200V 3 phase (L-L-L) at > 50Hz (though 60Hz appears to be OK), a unique electrical scheme for sure. > The amp requirement for the various pieces of equipment ranges from 0.75A > to 6A. For a total maximum load of 28 amps. The site is off-grid with > standard 120/240V North American Electrical Scheme using a Sol-Ark 15kW. > > My initial plan was to use Digital Phase Converters from MYUNG YOUN > ELECTRONICS for each device but after seeing the wiring in the control > panel and power distribution box in person there is no room to do this. > Plus the entire panel would need to be rewired. > > Ideally, I would have one device that converts the > electricity appropriately (transformer, VFD, etc). I have reached out to > several EEs and am awaiting responses. > > In the meantime I figured the hive mind of the Wrenches group may have > some ideas or know somebody that would. > > As always, thanks for everyone's time. > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > Owner > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > Office - 808 345 6762 > Direct Line - 808 731 1907 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Thu Jul 25 14:05:26 2024 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 13:05:26 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120/240V to 200V 3 phase (Japanese Electrical Scheme) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You made me think and that is sometimes not good. Is this 200 v between phases? Then a 120-208 three phase output should work fine. However I am not sure a 15kW inverter will supply the power. I have had good luck with sol-ark 15 kW powering small motors single phase, but a speed drive has rectifiers and capacitors. the drive needs 3 phase power or else the rectifiers get overloaded. If you only have these motors to drive and your solar array is 400 volt you may be able to connect solar directly to drive input again check with your drive supplier. On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 11:46 AM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Aloha All, > > I have a project that requires powering 6 different pieces of equipment > (mostly small motors) from East Japan that require 200V 3 phase (L-L-L) at > 50Hz (though 60Hz appears to be OK), a unique electrical scheme for sure. > The amp requirement for the various pieces of equipment ranges from 0.75A > to 6A. For a total maximum load of 28 amps. The site is off-grid with > standard 120/240V North American Electrical Scheme using a Sol-Ark 15kW. > > My initial plan was to use Digital Phase Converters from MYUNG YOUN > ELECTRONICS for each device but after seeing the wiring in the control > panel and power distribution box in person there is no room to do this. > Plus the entire panel would need to be rewired. > > Ideally, I would have one device that converts the > electricity appropriately (transformer, VFD, etc). I have reached out to > several EEs and am awaiting responses. > > In the meantime I figured the hive mind of the Wrenches group may have > some ideas or know somebody that would. > > As always, thanks for everyone's time. > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > Owner > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > Office - 808 345 6762 > Direct Line - 808 731 1907 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From iesbatteries at gmail.com Thu Jul 25 14:06:40 2024 From: iesbatteries at gmail.com (Daryl DeJoy) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 14:06:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for REC Twin Peak 300/305/310/315 Message-ID: If anyone has an REC Twin Peak black frame mod please contact me off list. Used is likely the only thing out there and that's just fine. TIA, Daryl DeJoy NABCEP CErtified PVIP since 2006 Island Energy Storage (207)479-2252 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Jul 25 14:22:17 2024 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 12:22:17 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Envy E-stop In-Reply-To: <30F4EDEF-5014-4F37-A6C2-2A0A5E4133F5@gmail.com> References: <30F4EDEF-5014-4F37-A6C2-2A0A5E4133F5@gmail.com> Message-ID: No wonder I'm confused, this inverter is missing the terminal block that the manual references. Does anyone have a good, direct number for Fortress tech support that will pick up. I'm getting nothing... Thanks! On Thu, Jul 25, 2024, 7:39 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Lewis > > Yes both the 12 and 18 have RSD > It’s a button on the left side. > > Shuts off AC and PV > > Jay > > On Jul 25, 2024, at 7:30 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Hello Wrenches, > > Does anyone know if the 12kW Envy inverter has remote stop capability? I > need an external button to activate rapid shutdown and disable inverter > output but I'm not seeing this functionality in the manual. > > Seems strange to me. > > Thanks in advance! > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Thu Jul 25 15:02:57 2024 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 14:02:57 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120/240V to 200V 3 phase (Japanese Electrical Scheme) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: hi sorry to waste your time. my supplier now Allen Bradley said 15 kW is awfully big for a speed drive , I am not sure you meant 1.5 kW, that is about $1000, AND NO Problem with single phase 240 volt input. On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 11:49 AM James Jarvis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Check out Phase Perfect. > > -James Jefferson Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > +1-507-454-2727 > > (Sent from my phone. My apologies for spelling errors and brevity.) > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2024, 11:46 AM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Aloha All, >> >> I have a project that requires powering 6 different pieces of equipment >> (mostly small motors) from East Japan that require 200V 3 phase (L-L-L) at >> 50Hz (though 60Hz appears to be OK), a unique electrical scheme for sure. >> The amp requirement for the various pieces of equipment ranges from 0.75A >> to 6A. For a total maximum load of 28 amps. The site is off-grid with >> standard 120/240V North American Electrical Scheme using a Sol-Ark 15kW. >> >> My initial plan was to use Digital Phase Converters from MYUNG YOUN >> ELECTRONICS for each device but after seeing the wiring in the control >> panel and power distribution box in person there is no room to do this. >> Plus the entire panel would need to be rewired. >> >> Ideally, I would have one device that converts the >> electricity appropriately (transformer, VFD, etc). I have reached out to >> several EEs and am awaiting responses. >> >> In the meantime I figured the hive mind of the Wrenches group may have >> some ideas or know somebody that would. >> >> As always, thanks for everyone's time. >> >> Aloha, >> >> Lou Russo >> Owner >> lou at spreesolarsystems.com >> Office - 808 345 6762 >> Direct Line - 808 731 1907 >> Spree Solar Systems LLC >> CT-34322 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Thu Jul 25 15:04:09 2024 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 14:04:09 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120/240V to 200V 3 phase (Japanese Electrical Scheme) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry for the confusing reply, Ijust checked with my supplier of speed drives, it is now allen bradley, he said 15 kW is awfully big reply On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 1:05 PM Darryl Thayer wrote: > You made me think and that is sometimes not good. Is this 200 v between > phases? Then a 120-208 three phase output should work fine. > However I am not sure a 15kW inverter will supply the power. I have had > good luck with sol-ark 15 kW powering small motors single phase, but a > speed drive has rectifiers and capacitors. the drive needs 3 phase power or > else the rectifiers get overloaded. If you only have these motors to drive > and your solar array is 400 volt you may be able to connect solar directly > to drive input again check with your drive supplier. > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 11:46 AM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Aloha All, >> >> I have a project that requires powering 6 different pieces of equipment >> (mostly small motors) from East Japan that require 200V 3 phase (L-L-L) at >> 50Hz (though 60Hz appears to be OK), a unique electrical scheme for sure. >> The amp requirement for the various pieces of equipment ranges from 0.75A >> to 6A. For a total maximum load of 28 amps. The site is off-grid with >> standard 120/240V North American Electrical Scheme using a Sol-Ark 15kW. >> >> My initial plan was to use Digital Phase Converters from MYUNG YOUN >> ELECTRONICS for each device but after seeing the wiring in the control >> panel and power distribution box in person there is no room to do this. >> Plus the entire panel would need to be rewired. >> >> Ideally, I would have one device that converts the >> electricity appropriately (transformer, VFD, etc). I have reached out to >> several EEs and am awaiting responses. >> >> In the meantime I figured the hive mind of the Wrenches group may have >> some ideas or know somebody that would. >> >> As always, thanks for everyone's time. >> >> Aloha, >> >> Lou Russo >> Owner >> lou at spreesolarsystems.com >> Office - 808 345 6762 >> Direct Line - 808 731 1907 >> Spree Solar Systems LLC >> CT-34322 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Thu Jul 25 15:25:21 2024 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 15:25:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Envy E-stop In-Reply-To: References: <30F4EDEF-5014-4F37-A6C2-2A0A5E4133F5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Not sure what tell you about your Envy True 12 if its missing the terminal block....their tech support now takes hours or days to respond,(six months ago it was immediate) and they almost mandate filing a service request online to get a case ticket# before they'll talk to you. [image: image.png] On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 2:23 PM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > No wonder I'm confused, this inverter is missing the terminal block that > the manual references. > > Does anyone have a good, direct number for Fortress tech support that will > pick up. I'm getting nothing... > > Thanks! > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2024, 7:39 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi Lewis >> >> Yes both the 12 and 18 have RSD >> It’s a button on the left side. >> >> Shuts off AC and PV >> >> Jay >> >> On Jul 25, 2024, at 7:30 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> Does anyone know if the 12kW Envy inverter has remote stop capability? I >> need an external button to activate rapid shutdown and disable inverter >> output but I'm not seeing this functionality in the manual. >> >> Seems strange to me. >> >> Thanks in advance! >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 127096 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jul 25 15:48:12 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 13:48:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Envy E-stop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3BBEECBB-7570-458C-A2CD-C321A7B26573@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Jul 25 15:53:58 2024 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 15:53:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Legacy SunnyBoy 2700 replacement Message-ID: Hi all,What are folks' choices for replacing a 16 year old SB2700 (120vAC inverter with a roof mounted array) that let the factory smoke out? I know this has been discussed before, but I'm wondering what the current suggestions might be. Thanks, Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Jul 29 12:57:36 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 10:57:36 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] UL3741 inverter listing for residential roofs Message-ID: HI All, I”m wondering if there are any rack companies that have a listed product for residential roofs? The only inverters I’ve found have been for larger commercial size. Living in an area with lots of flat roofs, ( OK super low slope) it would be an option vs micro or other power electronics thanks in advance jay From blake at sunlightandpower.com Mon Jul 29 15:25:48 2024 From: blake at sunlightandpower.com (Blake Gleason) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 12:25:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] UL3741 inverter listing for residential roofs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jay, Ironridge XR is 3741 listed, but only with Tesla MCIs (for now), I believe. https://www.ironridge.com/2024/02/27/flush-mount-systems-listed-to-ul-3741/ Best, Blake On Mon, Jul 29, 2024 at 9:58 AM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > HI All, > > I”m wondering if there are any rack companies that have a listed product > for residential roofs? > > The only inverters I’ve found have been for larger commercial size. > > Living in an area with lots of flat roofs, ( OK super low slope) it would > be an option vs micro or other power electronics > > thanks in advance > > jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Blake Gleason, PE | Employee Owner Director of Innovation and Technical Excellence O: 510-845-2997 x128 C: 510-867-5878 1035 Folger Ave. Berkeley, CA 94710 www.sunlightandpower.com License #326203 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Jul 29 23:47:57 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 20:47:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol Ark 12 k PV monitoring Message-ID: <7706da8e433e4451b6f9504e686c3555@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I have been through the manual and I can’t find anywhere where you can see on the inverter front panel the PV volts or amps for each of the MPPT inputs. Am I missing something? Thanks, William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Jul 29 23:52:15 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 20:52:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Neutral run to critical loads sub-panel Message-ID: <2e205fd1d7b095007d9a45e8aec093f2@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I found a grid-tie battery-backup system with a 120/240 VAC critical loads sub-panel that has no neutral run to it. All of the 120 VAC loads have their neutrals land in the meter panel. I have always felt instinctively that the neutrals should land in the breaker panel that feeds the circuit. I have looked through the NEC to find a passage that spells this out but I can seem to find one. Is this a code requirement? Is this recommended practice? Thanks in advance. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Tue Jul 30 00:14:15 2024 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MD Electric & Solar) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 21:14:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol Ark 12 k PV monitoring In-Reply-To: <7706da8e433e4451b6f9504e686c3555@mail.gmail.com> References: <7706da8e433e4451b6f9504e686c3555@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On the touchscreen, touch the battery icon, you will find it there. On Mon, Jul 29, 2024 at 8:52 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > > > I have been through the manual and I can’t find anywhere where you can see > on the inverter front panel the PV volts or amps for each of the MPPT > inputs. Am I missing something? > > > > Thanks, > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-412-3181 Cell: 707-684-0064 www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Jul 30 00:57:05 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 21:57:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol Ark 12 k PV monitoring In-Reply-To: References: <7706da8e433e4451b6f9504e686c3555@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: MD Electric: I touched the screen and it did not respond. Could the display be defective? This unit is a 12K-P. The serial number is blank. I am not sure I am looking at a manual for the 12K-P. The Sol-Arc website shows only the 12k-2P. Are there differences in the operation of the P versus the 2P? Thank you for your time. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* MD Electric & Solar [mailto:mdelectricsolar at gmail.com] *Sent:* Monday, July 29, 2024 9:14 PM *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol Ark 12 k PV monitoring On the touchscreen, touch the battery icon, you will find it there. On Mon, Jul 29, 2024 at 8:52 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Friends: I have been through the manual and I can’t find anywhere where you can see on the inverter front panel the PV volts or amps for each of the MPPT inputs. Am I missing something? Thanks, William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-412-3181 Cell: 707-684-0064 www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Tue Jul 30 01:20:43 2024 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 22:20:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol Ark 12 k PV monitoring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Jul 30 01:36:43 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 22:36:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol Ark 12 k PV monitoring Message-ID: <8b9628f1d5ecf64767329d68e5fca8da@mail.gmail.com> Michael: This is my first experience with a Sol-Arc and I did not install it. I touched the screen gently and then less gently. There was no response. I could only navigate by using the arrow keys. I see now there is a frozen touch screen recovery procedure. It involves pressing the Esc button for 7-10 seconds. I will try that. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* MDElectricSolar [mailto:mdelectricsolar at gmail.com] *Sent:* Monday, July 29, 2024 10:21 PM *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol Ark 12 k PV monitoring Does this unit have a touchscreen? Can you touch the settings wheel and get into the settings that way? Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar On Jul 29, 2024, at 9:58 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:  MD Electric: I touched the screen and it did not respond. Could the display be defective? This unit is a 12K-P. The serial number is blank. I am not sure I am looking at a manual for the 12K-P. The Sol-Arc website shows only the 12k-2P. Are there differences in the operation of the P versus the 2P? Thank you for your time. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* MD Electric & Solar [mailto:mdelectricsolar at gmail.com] *Sent:* Monday, July 29, 2024 9:14 PM *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol Ark 12 k PV monitoring On the touchscreen, touch the battery icon, you will find it there. On Mon, Jul 29, 2024 at 8:52 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Friends: I have been through the manual and I can’t find anywhere where you can see on the inverter front panel the PV volts or amps for each of the MPPT inputs. Am I missing something? Thanks, William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-412-3181 Cell: 707-684-0064 www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jul 30 08:48:56 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 08:48:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Neutral run to critical loads sub-panel In-Reply-To: <2e205fd1d7b095007d9a45e8aec093f2@mail.gmail.com> References: <2e205fd1d7b095007d9a45e8aec093f2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: See 300.3(B). I think that's what you are looking for. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Mon, Jul 29, 2024 at 11:53 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Friends: > > > > I found a grid-tie battery-backup system with a 120/240 VAC critical loads sub-panel that has no neutral run to it. All of the 120 VAC loads have their neutrals land in the meter panel. > > > > I have always felt instinctively that the neutrals should land in the breaker panel that feeds the circuit. I have looked through the NEC to find a passage that spells this out but I can seem to find one. > > > > Is this a code requirement? Is this recommended practice? > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 From david at quattrosolar.com Tue Jul 30 11:49:11 2024 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 08:49:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Neutral run to critical loads sub-panel In-Reply-To: References: <2e205fd1d7b095007d9a45e8aec093f2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Definitely best practice to do so, in fact probably not safe as it’s wired now. I know some inverters won’t work at all with “neutral loops” and are sophisticated enough to feel it, and stop inversion until the electrician fixes it On Tue, Jul 30, 2024 at 5:48 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > See 300.3(B). I think that's what you are looking for. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Mon, Jul 29, 2024 at 11:53 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > > > Friends: > > > > > > > > I found a grid-tie battery-backup system with a 120/240 VAC critical > loads sub-panel that has no neutral run to it. All of the 120 VAC loads > have their neutrals land in the meter panel. > > > > > > > > I have always felt instinctively that the neutrals should land in the > breaker panel that feeds the circuit. I have looked through the NEC to > find a passage that spells this out but I can seem to find one. > > > > > > > > Is this a code requirement? Is this recommended practice? > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > > > > > William Miller > > > > > > > > Miller Solar > > > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > > > 805-438-5600 > > > > www.millersolar.com > > > > CA Lic. 773985 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Tue Jul 30 13:55:54 2024 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 11:55:54 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] KiloVault Issues In-Reply-To: <02f001dae2a4$ee0a7e70$ca1f7b50$@OasisMontana.com> References: <02f001dae2a4$ee0a7e70$ca1f7b50$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: <00db01dae2a9$b9bdb920$2d392b60$@OasisMontana.com> Any ideas on what might be ailing our KiloVault LiFePo4 3600HLX+ batteries? Customer has 8 of the 3600HLX+ (300ah). New outta the box and they aren't holding charge. We hear that KiloVault is out of business? Inverter is the Sol-Ark 15K. Insights on what we can do and other ideas that can provide a direction will be appreciated. Generator is 20KW Generwreck...er...Generac. The installer is the customer's electrician. Thanks so much! Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777- 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com From maverick at mavericksolar.com Tue Jul 30 14:35:36 2024 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 13:35:36 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] KiloVault Issues In-Reply-To: <00db01dae2a9$b9bdb920$2d392b60$@OasisMontana.com> References: <00db01dae2a9$b9bdb920$2d392b60$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: <2160CF9C-22B3-4E9D-8C2F-98E8A8E4D72A@mavericksolar.com> Chris Lots of variables here. Is this system on grid or off grid? 8 of those batteries wired in series / parallel would be about 30kWh gross capacity. 4 x 12Vnom x 300Ah x 2 sets. About 51.2 x 300 x 2 x 80% = 24.6kWh usable. What are the charge settings? Load profiles? Etc. Do you have access to MySolArk.com for that customer to see how things are going? Do the batteries get charged (about 3.45V per cell each day or six)? How low do they get each day? Does the generator auto start on time? Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On Jul 30, 2024, at 12:57 PM, Chris Daum via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Any ideas on what might be ailing our KiloVault LiFePo4 3600HLX+ batteries? > Customer has 8 of the 3600HLX+ (300ah). New outta the box and they aren't > holding charge. We hear that KiloVault is out of business? Inverter is the > Sol-Ark 15K. Insights on what we can do and other ideas that can provide a > direction will be appreciated. Generator is 20KW Generwreck...er...Generac. > The installer is the customer's electrician. Thanks so much! > > Best, > > Chris Daum > Oasis Montana Inc. > 406-777- 4321 > 406-777-4309 fax > www.oasismontana.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jul 30 14:55:22 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 12:55:22 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] KiloVault Issues In-Reply-To: <2160CF9C-22B3-4E9D-8C2F-98E8A8E4D72A@mavericksolar.com> References: <2160CF9C-22B3-4E9D-8C2F-98E8A8E4D72A@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: I’m wondering if the batteries are out of balance. You might need to charge 1 set alone or even individually to get them full and calibrated. I had someone with a different kilovault have similar issues which when we charged them individually took care of the problem. And guessing it will come back at some point. The other thing I just remembered is that there are balancers from a few companies that I’d recommend ( so does kilovault). Kilovault and victron are the two that come to mind but are probably others. Jay > On Jul 30, 2024, at 12:36 PM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Chris > > Lots of variables here. > Is this system on grid or off grid? > > 8 of those batteries wired in series / parallel would be about 30kWh gross capacity. 4 x 12Vnom x 300Ah x 2 sets. About 51.2 x 300 x 2 x 80% = 24.6kWh usable. > > What are the charge settings? Load profiles? Etc. > > Do you have access to MySolArk.com for that customer to see how things are going? Do the batteries get charged (about 3.45V per cell each day or six)? How low do they get each day? Does the generator auto start on time? > > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > > >>> On Jul 30, 2024, at 12:57 PM, Chris Daum via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >> Any ideas on what might be ailing our KiloVault LiFePo4 3600HLX+ batteries? >> Customer has 8 of the 3600HLX+ (300ah). New outta the box and they aren't >> holding charge. We hear that KiloVault is out of business? Inverter is the >> Sol-Ark 15K. Insights on what we can do and other ideas that can provide a >> direction will be appreciated. Generator is 20KW Generwreck...er...Generac. >> The installer is the customer's electrician. Thanks so much! >> >> Best, >> >> Chris Daum >> Oasis Montana Inc. >> 406-777- 4321 >> 406-777-4309 fax >> www.oasismontana.com >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Jul 30 15:44:34 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 12:44:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] KiloVault Issues In-Reply-To: <00db01dae2a9$b9bdb920$2d392b60$@OasisMontana.com> References: <02f001dae2a4$ee0a7e70$ca1f7b50$@OasisMontana.com> <00db01dae2a9$b9bdb920$2d392b60$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: <82be29115a219aef1037ecb3b916c89a@sti.net> Another one bites the dust ! From Google. As of March 2024, KiloVault, a solar energy storage company, is no longer in business. "we go where powerlines don't" [2]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [3] [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-07-30 10:55 am, Chris Daum via RE-wrenches wrote: > Any ideas on what might be ailing our KiloVault LiFePo4 3600HLX+ > batteries? > Customer has 8 of the 3600HLX+ (300ah). New outta the box and they > aren't > holding charge. We hear that KiloVault is out of business? Inverter is > the > Sol-Ark 15K. Insights on what we can do and other ideas that can > provide a > direction will be appreciated. Generator is 20KW > Generwreck...er...Generac. > The installer is the customer's electrician. Thanks so much! > > Best, > > Chris Daum > Oasis Montana Inc. > 406-777- 4321 > 406-777-4309 fax > www.oasismontana.com [1] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.oasismontana.com [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rich at solartechvt.com Tue Jul 30 15:49:58 2024 From: rich at solartechvt.com (Richard Nicol) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 15:49:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] KiloVault Issues In-Reply-To: <82be29115a219aef1037ecb3b916c89a@sti.net> References: <02f001dae2a4$ee0a7e70$ca1f7b50$@OasisMontana.com> <00db01dae2a9$b9bdb920$2d392b60$@OasisMontana.com> <82be29115a219aef1037ecb3b916c89a@sti.net> Message-ID: Chris Brown of Solampio has purchased the remaining inventory of AltE, including the building. He has extra KV BMS boards for sale as well as some reconditioned batteries, firmware update kits etc. He is also accumulating orders of a compatible battery from the same manufacturer as KV. (in China of course) Here is his web site: https://solampio.com/sale/ Thanks Rich On Tue, Jul 30, 2024 at 3:45 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Another one bites the dust ! From Google. > > As of March 2024, KiloVault, a solar energy storage company, is no longer in business. > * > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ * *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2024-07-30 10:55 am, Chris Daum via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Any ideas on what might be ailing our KiloVault LiFePo4 3600HLX+ batteries? > Customer has 8 of the 3600HLX+ (300ah). New outta the box and they aren't > holding charge. We hear that KiloVault is out of business? Inverter is the > Sol-Ark 15K. Insights on what we can do and other ideas that can provide a > direction will be appreciated. Generator is 20KW > Generwreck...er...Generac. > The installer is the customer's electrician. Thanks so much! > > Best, > > Chris Daum > Oasis Montana Inc. > 406-777- 4321 > 406-777-4309 fax > www.oasismontana.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jul 30 15:53:00 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 13:53:00 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] KiloVault Issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0314693B-190B-41FF-8999-0AC57C961DCC@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chadwaits at netzerosolar.net Tue Jul 30 19:46:26 2024 From: chadwaits at netzerosolar.net (Chad Waits) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 16:46:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small Cabin inverter Message-ID: Gentlemen, I ask for this help with the caveat that I have very little knowledge of the specifics of the site in question, as the owners have poor records and the site is 3000 miles away from me... That being said, I have a client with a second home in Maine. They have a generator that currently feeds an old Trace DR inverter to charge (what appears to be from photos) a smallish sized battery bank. They don't have the information locally on the battery capacity, but the bank is lead acid and is configured at 12V. It appears the inverter may have finally stopped working and they are looking to replace it with a true sine wave version. We exited the off-grid market a couple years ago, so I haven't kept up on this stuff.. What would a good replacement be? We've used a Magnum version for a similar project back here in AZ back in 2019, but it appears they may have left that line behind?... The generator is rated at 10kW and the homestead is located at roughly sea level. 120V output is fine. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks! Chad Waits President - Net Zero Solar 945 W. Silverlake Rd, Tucson AZ 85713 Cell: (520) 270-4873 AZROC #248710,#259756 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jul 30 20:11:46 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 18:11:46 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small Cabin inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6773C39A-E8BB-4B5A-B568-6B8DA85BFA38@gmail.com> Hi Chad. Stay away from magnum. Do you want to keep that 12v or make changes? Jay > On Jul 30, 2024, at 5:47 PM, Chad Waits via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Gentlemen, > > I ask for this help with the caveat that I have very little knowledge of the specifics of the site in question, as the owners have poor records and the site is 3000 miles away from me... > > That being said, I have a client with a second home in Maine. They have a generator that currently feeds an old Trace DR inverter to charge (what appears to be from photos) a smallish sized battery bank. They don't have the information locally on the battery capacity, but the bank is lead acid and is configured at 12V. It appears the inverter may have finally stopped working and they are looking to replace it with a true sine wave version. > > We exited the off-grid market a couple years ago, so I haven't kept up on this stuff.. What would a good replacement be? We've used a Magnum version for a similar project back here in AZ back in 2019, but it appears they may have left that line behind?... The generator is rated at 10kW and the homestead is located at roughly sea level. 120V output is fine. > > Any help would be appreciated. > > Thanks! > > Chad Waits > President - Net Zero Solar > 945 W. Silverlake Rd, Tucson AZ 85713 > Cell: (520) 270-4873 > AZROC #248710,#259756 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From don at energysolarnow.com Wed Jul 31 00:31:34 2024 From: don at energysolarnow.com (don energysolarnow.com) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 04:31:34 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Neutral run to critical loads sub-panel Message-ID: If all the 120 VAC loads have their neutrals land in the main meter panel then there is no need to run a neutral from there to the sub panel, as long as the inverter does have a neutral connection back to the meter panel. Especially when the inverter goes off grid it needs that neutral connection to the loads neutral in the meter panel. Don Barch Energy Solar On Mon, Jul 29, 2024 at 11:53?PM William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Friends: > > I found a grid-tie battery-backup system with a 120/240 VAC critical loads sub-panel that has no neutral run to it. All of the 120 VAC loads have their neutrals land in the meter panel. > > I have always felt instinctively that the neutrals should land in the breaker panel that feeds the circuit. I have looked through the NEC to find a passage that spells this out but I can seem to find one. > > Is this a code requirement? Is this recommended practice? > > Thanks in advance. > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Wed Jul 31 08:26:29 2024 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 07:26:29 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small Cabin inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Chad I recommend Victron Multiplus II or Quattro. Victron has a slew of monitoring and charge controllers to go along with the inverter. The Cerbo GX can put the system in the internet and the SmartShunt is a must for knowing the system state of charge. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On Jul 30, 2024, at 6:47 PM, Chad Waits via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Gentlemen, > > I ask for this help with the caveat that I have very little knowledge of the specifics of the site in question, as the owners have poor records and the site is 3000 miles away from me... > > That being said, I have a client with a second home in Maine. They have a generator that currently feeds an old Trace DR inverter to charge (what appears to be from photos) a smallish sized battery bank. They don't have the information locally on the battery capacity, but the bank is lead acid and is configured at 12V. It appears the inverter may have finally stopped working and they are looking to replace it with a true sine wave version. > > We exited the off-grid market a couple years ago, so I haven't kept up on this stuff.. What would a good replacement be? We've used a Magnum version for a similar project back here in AZ back in 2019, but it appears they may have left that line behind?... The generator is rated at 10kW and the homestead is located at roughly sea level. 120V output is fine. > > Any help would be appreciated. > > Thanks! > > Chad Waits > President - Net Zero Solar > 945 W. Silverlake Rd, Tucson AZ 85713 > Cell: (520) 270-4873 > AZROC #248710,#259756 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Wed Jul 31 11:21:50 2024 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 11:21:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small Cabin inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Chasm The big question is the 12V requirements. If they don't use 12V directly, they can go up in voltage to make the system more efficient. I'm working on an upgrade for a client with the exact same setup. The old DR needs replacing and we care considering Lithium batteries. With a 24V system, or better yet, a 48V system will make adding more solar a lot easier. I may suggest to my customer a used outback VFX3524 to save money as I have one in a recent trade-in. If you want to go with the latest technology, Victron makes some really nice stuff with bluetooth communication. Just need to have internet to download the app. Depends on how techy your customer is. Some like idiot lights, some simple clear readouts and some are connected to their smart phones. John Blittersdorf. On Tue, Jul 30, 2024 at 7:47 PM Chad Waits via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Gentlemen, > > I ask for this help with the caveat that I have very little knowledge of > the specifics of the site in question, as the owners have poor records and > the site is 3000 miles away from me... > > That being said, I have a client with a second home in Maine. They have a > generator that currently feeds an old Trace DR inverter to charge (what > appears to be from photos) a smallish sized battery bank. They don't have > the information locally on the battery capacity, but the bank is lead acid > and is configured at 12V. It appears the inverter may have finally > stopped working and they are looking to replace it with a true sine wave > version. > > We exited the off-grid market a couple years ago, so I haven't kept up on > this stuff.. What would a good replacement be? We've used a Magnum version > for a similar project back here in AZ back in 2019, but it appears they may > have left that line behind?... The generator is rated at 10kW and the > homestead is located at roughly sea level. 120V output is fine. > > Any help would be appreciated. > > Thanks! > > Chad Waits > President - Net Zero Solar > 945 W. Silverlake Rd, Tucson AZ 85713 > Cell: (520) 270-4873 > AZROC #248710,#259756 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chadwaits at netzerosolar.net Wed Jul 31 19:28:55 2024 From: chadwaits at netzerosolar.net (Chad Waits) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 16:28:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small Cabin inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks gentlemen. I had heard rumblings on the list of the downturn at Magnum. Shame... I was able to talk them into reconfiguring the bank to 24V. I will take a look at Victron, but I would really like to offer them the simplest solution. The Internet is nil there and the fella that lives there most of the time doesn't even know what a smartphone is.. Country boy you could say. Appreciate the insight. Chad Waits President - Net Zero Solar 945 W. Silverlake Rd, Tucson AZ 85713 Cell: (520) 270-4873 AZROC #248710,#259756 On Wed, Jul 31, 2024 at 8:22 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Chasm > The big question is the 12V requirements. If they don't use 12V > directly, they can go up in voltage to make the system > more efficient. I'm working on an upgrade for a client with the exact same > setup. The old DR needs replacing and we care considering > Lithium batteries. With a 24V system, or better yet, a 48V > system will make adding more solar a lot easier. I may suggest to my > customer > a used outback VFX3524 to save money as I have one in a recent trade-in. > > If you want to go with the latest technology, Victron makes some > really nice stuff with bluetooth communication. Just need to have > internet to download the app. Depends on how techy your customer is. > Some like idiot lights, some simple clear readouts and some are connected > to their smart phones. > > John Blittersdorf. > > On Tue, Jul 30, 2024 at 7:47 PM Chad Waits via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Gentlemen, >> >> I ask for this help with the caveat that I have very little knowledge of >> the specifics of the site in question, as the owners have poor records and >> the site is 3000 miles away from me... >> >> That being said, I have a client with a second home in Maine. They have a >> generator that currently feeds an old Trace DR inverter to charge (what >> appears to be from photos) a smallish sized battery bank. They don't have >> the information locally on the battery capacity, but the bank is lead acid >> and is configured at 12V. It appears the inverter may have finally >> stopped working and they are looking to replace it with a true sine wave >> version. >> >> We exited the off-grid market a couple years ago, so I haven't kept up on >> this stuff.. What would a good replacement be? We've used a Magnum version >> for a similar project back here in AZ back in 2019, but it appears they may >> have left that line behind?... The generator is rated at 10kW and the >> homestead is located at roughly sea level. 120V output is fine. >> >> Any help would be appreciated. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Chad Waits >> President - Net Zero Solar >> 945 W. Silverlake Rd, Tucson AZ 85713 >> Cell: (520) 270-4873 >> AZROC #248710,#259756 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From adirondackbattery at gmail.com Wed Jul 31 19:30:05 2024 From: adirondackbattery at gmail.com (Amanda Potter) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 19:30:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small Cabin inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6518A577-62FD-4ECC-B8EC-FA4D06B0B95D@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu Aug 1 07:51:00 2024 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2024 07:51:00 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MN 15-12KW-AIO In-Reply-To: <6518A577-62FD-4ECC-B8EC-FA4D06B0B95D@gmail.com> References: <6518A577-62FD-4ECC-B8EC-FA4D06B0B95D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2c345234-4ed1-4bea-ad19-d65689801fb3@entech-engineering.com> Hello, I have a one week old information request into Midnite regarding the MN 15-12KW-AIO, but no response yet. Has anyone have information on how it is performing during its early production phase, and does anyone have information on when it will be available. It is either them or SolArk at this point and I would prefer Midnite for made in America reasons. Thank you, Chris -- Christopher Warfel           ENTECH Engineering Inc.    PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                   401-477-5773 EE Logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: isB61DbEP9sM54YdcEgcOtcZBsp2AvUGhaUuM8fB3XaVim6Si_XUz16x7TOScwy41aAJGiGwqQ=s900-c-k-c0x00ffffff-no-rj.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 88828 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Aug 1 09:08:16 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2024 07:08:16 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MN 15-12KW-AIO In-Reply-To: References: <2c345234-4ed1-4bea-ad19-d65689801fb3@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Sol Ark is definitely not made in america. Its made by Deye in China. I don’t know all the rules about what you have to do to call it made in america, like put a label on it or something, but made in china. jay > On Aug 1, 2024, at 6:17 AM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Chris > > It is available now. > > > MidNite TheOne - 11.4kW Hybrid All-in-one Inverter ~ Current Connected > currentconnected.com > MidNite TheOne - 11.4kW Hybrid All-in-one Inverter ~ Current Connected > currentconnected.com > > Adam De Lay posted several videos about it. > > > Adam De Lay > youtube.com > Adam De Lay > youtube.com > > The AIO seems to the working great! > > The AIO is subcontract manufactured similarly to how the solark is made. > > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > > >> On Aug 1, 2024, at 6:52 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >>  >> Hello, >> >> >> >> I have a one week old information request into Midnite regarding the MN 15-12KW-AIO, but no response yet. >> >> Has anyone have information on how it is performing during its early production phase, and does anyone have information on when it will be available. >> >> It is either them or SolArk at this point and I would prefer Midnite for made in America reasons. >> >> >> >> Thank you, Chris >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Christopher Warfel >> ENTECH Engineering Inc. >> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >> 401-477-5773 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Thu Aug 1 09:10:18 2024 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jarvis) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2024 08:10:18 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MN 15-12KW-AIO In-Reply-To: References: <2c345234-4ed1-4bea-ad19-d65689801fb3@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: So is the Midnite AIO made in USA? Or is it just USA branding / firmware / support on China made hardware? Thanks On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 8:08 AM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Sol Ark is definitely not made in america. > > > On Aug 1, 2024, at 6:17 AM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > The AIO is subcontract manufactured similarly to how the solark is made. > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Thu Aug 1 09:29:04 2024 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2024 08:29:04 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MN 15-12KW-AIO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Thu Aug 1 11:10:21 2024 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2024 08:10:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MN 15-12KW-AIO Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emerkel15 at gmail.com Thu Aug 1 12:03:54 2024 From: emerkel15 at gmail.com (Evan M) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2024 12:03:54 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunpower connectors Message-ID: Anyone happen know the make/model of connectors associated with the Sunpower cracking issues a couple years back? News stories do a good job of obscuring it. https://www.pv-tech.org/sunpower-hit-by-us31-million-cracking-issue-warns-of-further-drags-on-q4-results/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu Aug 1 12:13:46 2024 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2024 12:13:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunpower connectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Evan, I am not sure if this is the same issue, but I have seen a lot of arc fault issues with the E20-327 modules paired with SMA inverters. Every system that we have done repairs on have had the Yukita junction boxes, and there were a handful of failed solder joints on the diodes in the junction boxes. Sunpower is having contractors cut out the diodes and install an external diode per module. The issues related to this have popped up a lot in the past few years, even though the modules were installed roughly around 2015-2018. Cheers, Dave On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 12:04 PM Evan M via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Anyone happen know the make/model of connectors associated with the > Sunpower cracking issues a couple years back? News stories do a good job of > obscuring it. > > > https://www.pv-tech.org/sunpower-hit-by-us31-million-cracking-issue-warns-of-further-drags-on-q4-results/ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Aug 1 12:15:31 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2024 10:15:31 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunpower connectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Unfortunately sunpower is about out of business. Warranty might not be possible at this point Jay > On Aug 1, 2024, at 10:04 AM, Evan M via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Anyone happen know the make/model of connectors associated with the Sunpower cracking issues a couple years back? News stories do a good job of obscuring it. > > https://www.pv-tech.org/sunpower-hit-by-us31-million-cracking-issue-warns-of-further-drags-on-q4-results/ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emerkel15 at gmail.com Thu Aug 1 12:20:38 2024 From: emerkel15 at gmail.com (Evan M) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2024 12:20:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunpower connectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: appreciate the replies, we're doing a project with a mix of E20-435 and P19-390 being provided to us. trying to figure out if we're going to have a bad time with these connectors. FWIW the connectors included on them are TE PV4-S. i haven't seen those a quite a few years. On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 12:15 PM Jay wrote: > Unfortunately sunpower is about out of business. > Warranty might not be possible at this point > > Jay > > On Aug 1, 2024, at 10:04 AM, Evan M via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Anyone happen know the make/model of connectors associated with the > Sunpower cracking issues a couple years back? News stories do a good job of > obscuring it. > > > https://www.pv-tech.org/sunpower-hit-by-us31-million-cracking-issue-warns-of-further-drags-on-q4-results/ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Aug 1 12:21:46 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2024 10:21:46 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunpower connectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6B9D09EF-39C0-41D9-A5D3-548A002EFF0B@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Aug 1 12:22:34 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2024 09:22:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunpower connectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4245e141b1424875eb9adf838f3f2b10@sti.net> As of July 19,2024 some say that SunPower's announcement to stop new leases, installations, and shipments may indicate the end of the company as an operating business. SunPower's stock has also dropped nearly 93% in the last 12 months Ouch, fair to say the writing has been on the wall or the WallStreet longer than 2024. Better get your parts soon😉 Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-08-01 9:13 am, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches wrote: > Evan, > I am not sure if this is the same issue, but I have seen a lot of arc > fault issues with the E20-327 modules paired with SMA inverters. Every > system that we have done repairs on have had the Yukita junction boxes, > and there were a handful of failed solder joints on the diodes in the > junction boxes. Sunpower is having contractors cut out the diodes and > install an external diode per module. The issues related to this have > popped up a lot in the past few years, even though the modules were > installed roughly around 2015-2018. > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 12:04 PM Evan M via RE-wrenches > wrote: > >> Anyone happen know the make/model of connectors associated with the >> Sunpower cracking issues a couple years back? News stories do a good >> job of obscuring it. >> >> https://www.pv-tech.org/sunpower-hit-by-us31-million-cracking-issue-warns-of-further-drags-on-q4-results/ >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Aug 1 13:39:50 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2024 13:39:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power Control System for Main Panel Upgrade Avoidance Message-ID: Note: This email is written from the perspective of the Enphase terminology, but the concept and question is the same in a general sense. I am having a hard time understanding the logic and benefit of a power control system that is used for avoiding a main panel upgrade in a typical residence. If you have a 200A main panel bus with a 200A main breaker, the current limit for a backfed breaker is 32A from the PV, no matter what. The PCS will artificially reduce the PV output to 32A when it could be capable of a much higher current for large systems depending on sunlight availability. That would waste a lot of energy if the PV system is significantly larger than a 32A output rating. The PCS standards seem to have missed the mark. Wouldn't it make more sense to limit the total current delivered to the bus from all sources? For example, in the example above, if PV is delivering 40A, why not allow limiting utility input to 120A for a total of 160A continuous delivered to the bus before PV is throttled? If the utility is delivering zero, the PV could deliver all the way up to 160A the the bus if capable. That way, all of the loads would be powered to the maximum extent from PV with the excess exported (if allowed via net metering from the serving utility). Am I missing something about how PCS works? I just don't see many use cases for main panel avoidance that are in customers' best interest. If we can't meet the 120% rule, we just do supply-side interconnections so nothing is wasted. But a backfed breaker would be so much easier if PCS were implemented in the way that I would like it to work. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Aug 1 14:06:30 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2024 14:06:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Neutral run to critical loads sub-panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think it depends on how the backup load circuit ungrounded conductors are extended. If they share the same raceway with the inverter AC input and output conductors all the way to the backup subpanel, and there is a neutral connection from the main panel to inverter and inverter to subpanel, the intent of 300.3(B) would be satisfied (assuming the neutral conductor is appropriately rated). But if the backup load circuit ungrounded conductors are extended to the subpanel in a separate raceway, there would need to be neutrals extended as well in that same raceway. That's where using a wiring gutter is often beneficial because you can often easily extend ungrounded backup load conductors through the same raceway(s) to reach a backup load subpanel. One thing seems certain - you need a neutral to the subpanel, but it can be a single neutral from the inverter output, or individual branch circuit neutrals extended to the subpanel. One consideration would be ensuring the neutral conductor is large enough to handle the total load from the backup loads (while on grid), which may be greater than the inverter rating, because the inverter only needs to serve the largest backed up load. The inverter may be able to pass through a larger utility feed than the inverter output rating in islanded mode. That would most likely apply to the ungrounded conductors. Anyway, I think it's better practice to just extend all of the backup load neutrals as well. It's cleaner. And you need a label indicating that there are pass-through loads (NEC 312.8(A)(3)). I see this missed VERY frequently. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Jul 31, 2024 at 12:32 AM don energysolarnow.com via RE-wrenches wrote: > > If all the 120 VAC loads have their neutrals land in the main meter panel then there is no need to run a neutral from there to the sub panel, as long as the inverter does have a neutral connection back to the meter panel. > Especially when the inverter goes off grid it needs that neutral connection to the loads neutral in the meter panel. > > Don Barch > Energy Solar > > > > On Mon, Jul 29, 2024 at 11:53?PM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > > > Friends: > > > > I found a grid-tie battery-backup system with a 120/240 VAC critical loads sub-panel that has no neutral run to it. All of the 120 VAC loads have their neutrals land in the meter panel. > > > > I have always felt instinctively that the neutrals should land in the breaker panel that feeds the circuit. I have looked through the NEC to find a passage that spells this out but I can seem to find one. > > > > Is this a code requirement? Is this recommended practice? > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > > > 805-438-5600 > > > > www.millersolar.com > From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu Aug 1 14:55:35 2024 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2024 14:55:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MN 15-12KW-AIO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you all, I was afraid that it was China sourced.  Accountants bought in with giving China the keys to the kingdom in order to temporarily shave costs, once again.  I like Germany's approach, keep one or two steps ahead of them. Chris On 8/1/2024 11:10 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > > Backwoods Solar sent out an announcement on July 11 that it is in > stock and shipping, Chris. You might contact them. > Allan > >> On Aug 1, 2024, at 4:52 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> Hello, >> >> I have a one week old information request into Midnite regarding the >> MN 15-12KW-AIO, but no response yet. >> >> Has anyone have information on how it is performing during its early >> production phase, and does anyone have information on when it will be >> available. >> >> It is either them or SolArk at this point and I would prefer Midnite >> for made in America reasons. >> >> Thank you, Chris >> >> -- >> Christopher Warfel >>           ENTECH Engineering Inc. >>    PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>                   401-477-5773 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> -- Christopher Warfel           ENTECH Engineering Inc.    PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                   401-477-5773 EE Logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/vcard Size: 203 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Thu Aug 1 16:20:24 2024 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2024 13:20:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MN 15-12KW-AIO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8b7ed2c5-6ab2-2bbd-b45f-71d78df5af40@midnitesolar.com> Sorry about the recent problem with support. MidNite recently got a new (supposedly better of course) IT and phone system.  That system still has some glitches which is part of the phone support but should work OK during the day or maybe all the time now ? Remember that  you can always email support at midnitesolar.com support at mid*NIGHT*solar.com should work in most cases but not always.  Good thing would be to spell NIGHT  as *NITE *instead if you can to make sure the email goes to where it is supposed to go. As for the AIO,  yes it is made in China.  You are not going to find a Made in USA AIO for any reasonable price. China is getting very good at this stuff. Too good.  Look at Sol-Ark.  They have done very well by partnering with Deye. Looking like the AIO ONE from MidNite is less expensive and just as reliable. The AIO is made by an experienced manufacturer in China but is new to the US market, as are a lot of Chinese AIO inverter manufacturers.  But even this company needed help with the implementation of some battery inter-workings (closed loop) and 120/240 VAC and stacking.  Also other software to be able to be used here. I know we all love SMA but we wish they would have catered more to the US on the Sunny Island by making a 120/240 version instead of having to use big and expensive auto-formers. MidNite would like to concentrate on products that are able to be made in Arlington Washington like the Rosie and Little Rosie. But some things are best left to the Chinese for manufacture.  AIO is most likely the best thing that they do in our industry but not without some help along the way.  It's amazing how fast they respond to requests and changes for MidNite. P.S.  We are all getting older.  Don't be afraid to see your Dr. once in a while to help us get even older ! 🌜boB🌛 On 8/1/2024 11:55 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Thank you all, I was afraid that it was China sourced.  Accountants > bought in with giving China the keys to the kingdom in order to > temporarily shave costs, once again. I like Germany's approach, keep > one or two steps ahead of them. > > Chris > > On 8/1/2024 11:10 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: >> >> Backwoods Solar sent out an announcement on July 11 that it is in >> stock and shipping, Chris. You might contact them. >> Allan >> >>> On Aug 1, 2024, at 4:52 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hello, >>> >>> I have a one week old information request into Midnite regarding the >>> MN 15-12KW-AIO, but no response yet. >>> >>> Has anyone have information on how it is performing during its early >>> production phase, and does anyone have information on when it will >>> be available. >>> >>> It is either them or SolArk at this point and I would prefer Midnite >>> for made in America reasons. >>> >>> Thank you, Chris >>> >>> -- >>> Christopher Warfel >>>           ENTECH Engineering Inc. >>>    PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>>                   401-477-5773 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>> try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > -- > Christopher Warfel >           ENTECH Engineering Inc. >    PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >                   401-477-5773 > EE Logo > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Aug 1 16:39:33 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2024 14:39:33 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Neutral run to critical loads sub-panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <297be227-0825-4af0-b42f-c74296ef5144@solarray.com> Leaving the branch circuit neutrals and grounds in the existing main panel, and just extending the ungrounded conductors to the subpanel is much cleaner.  Splicing and extending all of the branch circuit conductors can quickly exceed the fill rating of the main panel with all those wire nut splices. It looks terrible, and is terrible to work with. We run single neutral and ground conductors to the subpanel sized per the bypass breakers. We've done it this way for decades, and always had inspectors comment on the cleanliness of our work. If the subpanel was not within a few inches of the MLP, then I Would extend all branch circuit conductors, but I'd consider using a large J box adjacent to the MLP to keep all the extension splices out of the way. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 8/1/2024 12:06 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > I think it depends on how the backup load circuit ungrounded > conductors are extended. If they share the same raceway with the > inverter AC input and output conductors all the way to the backup > subpanel, and there is a neutral connection from the main panel to > inverter and inverter to subpanel, the intent of 300.3(B) would be > satisfied (assuming the neutral conductor is appropriately rated). But > if the backup load circuit ungrounded conductors are extended to the > subpanel in a separate raceway, there would need to be neutrals > extended as well in that same raceway. That's where using a wiring > gutter is often beneficial because you can often easily extend > ungrounded backup load conductors through the same raceway(s) to reach > a backup load subpanel. > > One thing seems certain - you need a neutral to the subpanel, but it > can be a single neutral from the inverter output, or individual branch > circuit neutrals extended to the subpanel. One consideration would be > ensuring the neutral conductor is large enough to handle the total > load from the backup loads (while on grid), which may be greater than > the inverter rating, because the inverter only needs to serve the > largest backed up load. The inverter may be able to pass through a > larger utility feed than the inverter output rating in islanded mode. > That would most likely apply to the ungrounded conductors. > > Anyway, I think it's better practice to just extend all of the backup > load neutrals as well. It's cleaner. > > And you need a label indicating that there are pass-through loads (NEC > 312.8(A)(3)). I see this missed VERY frequently. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Wed, Jul 31, 2024 at 12:32 AM don energysolarnow.com via > RE-wrenches wrote: >> If all the 120 VAC loads have their neutrals land in the main meter panel then there is no need to run a neutral from there to the sub panel, as long as the inverter does have a neutral connection back to the meter panel. >> Especially when the inverter goes off grid it needs that neutral connection to the loads neutral in the meter panel. >> >> Don Barch >> Energy Solar >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jul 29, 2024 at 11:53?PM William Miller via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >>> Friends: >>> >>> I found a grid-tie battery-backup system with a 120/240 VAC critical loads sub-panel that has no neutral run to it. All of the 120 VAC loads have their neutrals land in the meter panel. >>> >>> I have always felt instinctively that the neutrals should land in the breaker panel that feeds the circuit. I have looked through the NEC to find a passage that spells this out but I can seem to find one. >>> >>> Is this a code requirement? Is this recommended practice? >>> >>> Thanks in advance. >>> >>> William Miller >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From dana at solarwork.com Thu Aug 1 16:44:56 2024 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2024 20:44:56 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Neutral run to critical loads sub-panel In-Reply-To: <297be227-0825-4af0-b42f-c74296ef5144@solarray.com> References: <297be227-0825-4af0-b42f-c74296ef5144@solarray.com> Message-ID: Wire nuts in a breaker panel are not allowed per my inspector per code. Pull the Romex out of the breaker panel & spllce in a wire gutter to extend. I have seen this enforced twice now. _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Ray Walters via RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Neutral run to critical loads sub-panel Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2024 20:39:33 +0000 Size: 14746 URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Aug 1 17:09:19 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2024 15:09:19 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Neutral run to critical loads sub-panel In-Reply-To: References: <297be227-0825-4af0-b42f-c74296ef5144@solarray.com> Message-ID: <0bf3ee3d-161b-43ea-ad7c-1ec666ecb6ab@solarray.com> Hi Dana; What code section is he/ she referencing?  Many times, wires are left too short to land on a particular breaker or buss, so splices in the load center happen even in regular electrical work.  Our inspectors here consider a load center the same as any other electrical enclosure: subject to wire and splice fill requirements.  We've beaten this dead horse subject before, many years back. So your inspector would require you to tear into a finished wall to install a gutter, just to relocate a breaker in the same panel, and extend the circuit wire with a splice?  What if you accidentally cut one neutral wire a few inches short; suddenly you need the custom plaster crew back out to patch?   I've had MLPs installed in walls with very expensive wall finishes. I'm not tearing into that wall unless it's the only way.   The majority of inspectors are not electricians. Code citations, please. Thanks, Ray Walters Remote Solar On 8/1/2024 2:44 PM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Wire nuts in a breaker panel are not allowed per my inspector per > code.  Pull the Romex out of the breaker panel & spllce in a wire > gutter to extend. > > I have seen this enforced twice now. > > _________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! > > C – 208.721.7003      E – dana at solarwork.com > > W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com > > /_“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”_/ > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Aug 1 18:02:08 2024 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2024 22:02:08 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Neutral run to critical loads sub-panel In-Reply-To: <0bf3ee3d-161b-43ea-ad7c-1ec666ecb6ab@solarray.com> References: <297be227-0825-4af0-b42f-c74296ef5144@solarray.com> <0bf3ee3d-161b-43ea-ad7c-1ec666ecb6ab@solarray.com> Message-ID: This was extending to a critical load panel. I am not an AC electrician but my guy is & had to set a gutter. It was a nice neat cut-in above the panel. Sorry I cannot quote the NEC section I was not present. Id say check with your AHJ........ _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Ray Walters via RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Neutral run to critical loads sub-panel Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2024 21:09:19 +0000 Size: 20843 URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Aug 1 18:42:22 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2024 15:42:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Neutral run to critical loads sub-panel In-Reply-To: <0bf3ee3d-161b-43ea-ad7c-1ec666ecb6ab@solarray.com> References: <297be227-0825-4af0-b42f-c74296ef5144@solarray.com> <0bf3ee3d-161b-43ea-ad7c-1ec666ecb6ab@solarray.com> Message-ID: <401c51db581205b06d682db46c43d070@mail.gmail.com> Friends: Thanks for the feedback on the issue. The relevant code sections are below (2020 version). · I see nothing that prevents splicing in a panelboard as long as there is adequate cross-sectional area (312.8). · Note that if circuits run through a panel and do not originate in that panel, there must be a warning label (312.8(A)(3)). · There is a requirement to run all conductors of a given circuit together in any raceway (300.3(B). Unless you are running jacketed cable, which does not apply here, there is no way to run wires into a panel except through a raceway. Even the shortest option, a chase nipple, is a section of raceway. So if you are relocating a circuit with a neutral to a critical loads sub-panel you must run the neutral with it the entire distance and connect it in that critical loads sub-panel. · The conductors in AC wiring systems emit EMF and the EMF from different conductors can interact with each other and metallic objects nearby, creating eddy currents. This effect is heightened in metallic raceways. It is important that all conductors of AC circuits be in close proximity because it helps reduce external EMF. I believe this is the reason behind 300.3(B). · I always try to think about any technician that might come after me and try to make it obvious what is being done in order to make troubleshooting easier and safer. Making someone search around for a corresponding neutral is just not good practice. Based on the code and this logic, I am very clear that one must connect neutrals within the load-center that holds the overcurrent protection feeding that circuit. William Miller *300.3(B) Conductors of the Same Circuit. All conductors of the* *same circuit and, where used, the grounded conductor and all* *equipment grounding conductors and bonding conductors* *shall be contained within the same raceway, auxiliary gutter,* *cable u-ay, cablebus assembly, trench, cable, or cord, unless* *otherwise permitted in accordance with 300.3(B)(l) through* *(B)(4) .* I see nothing in B1-B4 that applies here, so no exception. *312.8 Switch and Overcurrent Device Enclosures. The wiring* *space within enclosures for switches and overcurrent devices* *shall be permitted for other wiring and equipment subject to* *limi tations for specific equipment as provided in 312.8(A) and* *(B).* *(A) Splices, Taps, and Feed-Through Conductors. The wiring* *space of enclosures for switches or overcurrent devices shall be* *permitted for conductors feeding through, spliced, or tapping* *off to other enclosures, switches, or overcurrent devices where* *all of the following conditions are met:* *(1) The total of all conductors installed at any cross section of* *the wiring space doe not exceed 40 percent of the crosssectional* *area of that space.* *(2) The total area of all conductors, splices, and taps installed* *at any cross section of the wiring space does not exceed* *75 percent of the cross-sectional area of that space.* *(3) A warning label complying with 110.21(B) is applied to* *the enclosure that identifies the closest disconnecting* *means for any feed-through conductors.* Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Ray Walters via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Thursday, August 1, 2024 2:09 PM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Cc:* Ray Walters *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Neutral run to critical loads sub-panel Hi Dana; What code section is he/ she referencing? Many times, wires are left too short to land on a particular breaker or buss, so splices in the load center happen even in regular electrical work. Our inspectors here consider a load center the same as any other electrical enclosure: subject to wire and splice fill requirements. We've beaten this dead horse subject before, many years back. So your inspector would require you to tear into a finished wall to install a gutter, just to relocate a breaker in the same panel, and extend the circuit wire with a splice? What if you accidentally cut one neutral wire a few inches short; suddenly you need the custom plaster crew back out to patch? I've had MLPs installed in walls with very expensive wall finishes. I'm not tearing into that wall unless it's the only way. The majority of inspectors are not electricians. Code citations, please. Thanks, Ray Walters Remote Solar On 8/1/2024 2:44 PM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches wrote: Wire nuts in a breaker panel are not allowed per my inspector per code. Pull the Romex out of the breaker panel & spllce in a wire gutter to extend. I have seen this enforced twice now. _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Thu Aug 1 20:10:33 2024 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2024 20:10:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Neutral run to critical loads sub-panel In-Reply-To: <0bf3ee3d-161b-43ea-ad7c-1ec666ecb6ab@solarray.com> References: <297be227-0825-4af0-b42f-c74296ef5144@solarray.com> <0bf3ee3d-161b-43ea-ad7c-1ec666ecb6ab@solarray.com> Message-ID: I agree. Nothing in the NEC that prevents splicing with whatever UL listed & approved component (wire nut, insulated splice, etc.) is necessary and doesn't violate bending and fill limits. This is common in Vermont, in both jurisdictions (state and town inspections, where required). I've run across overreaching inspectors before, who don't like this or that until it's pointed out no violation of NEC has occurred. On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 5:09 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Dana; > > What code section is he/ she referencing? Many times, wires are left too > short to land on a particular breaker or buss, so splices in the load > center happen even in regular electrical work. Our inspectors here > consider a load center the same as any other electrical enclosure: subject > to wire and splice fill requirements. We've beaten this dead horse subject > before, many years back. > > So your inspector would require you to tear into a finished wall to > install a gutter, just to relocate a breaker in the same panel, and extend > the circuit wire with a splice? What if you accidentally cut one neutral > wire a few inches short; suddenly you need the custom plaster crew back out > to patch? I've had MLPs installed in walls with very expensive wall > finishes. I'm not tearing into that wall unless it's the only way. The > majority of inspectors are not electricians. > > Code citations, please. > > Thanks, > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > On 8/1/2024 2:44 PM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Wire nuts in a breaker panel are not allowed per my inspector per code. > Pull the Romex out of the breaker panel & spllce in a wire gutter to > extend. > > I have seen this enforced twice now. > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! > > C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com > > W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com > > *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Fri Aug 2 08:28:39 2024 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2024 07:28:39 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MN 15-12KW-AIO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <08E65B6D-60BA-46F5-850D-1D0622E4D090@mavericksolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Fri Aug 2 11:10:34 2024 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2024 11:10:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MN 15-12KW-AIO In-Reply-To: <08E65B6D-60BA-46F5-850D-1D0622E4D090@mavericksolar.com> References: <08E65B6D-60BA-46F5-850D-1D0622E4D090@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: As someone who has been testing a Midnite AIO preproduction model and their preproduction Lithium BMS in an off grid environment I can attest to the simplicity and functionality of the design and the truly plug and play aspect of the battery/ inverter communication. The current setting of the system is not testing its limits due to the nature of the existing loads, but after several months, I've seen nothing that gives me pause. I will be installing several more of these systems both on and off grid over the next 1-2 months and will report back my experience here. Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher On Fri, Aug 2, 2024, 8:29 AM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I wanted to clarify a few things. To make it easy I received a message > from Robin Gudgel to pass along to the group. Let me know or Robin know any > questions or comments. > > I was reading some excerpts from a recent wrenches post regarding our new > AIO inverter. We spent years designing this inverter with the help of a > great manufacturer in China. This is not just a rebranded inverter. The > first thing we did was to visit 20 different inverter companies and settled > on one that only does manufacturing for others. They are building to our > design and are extremely quality conscious. Heck their final computerized > burn in system costed $500,000. That is something we can relate to since we > too do a computerized burn in. We probably spent $50K though. One of the > owners of MidNite is a fellow I have been doing business with in China for > 20 years. We buy hundreds of different custom plastic and metal parts from > him. He (Michael) is heavily involved in this new project and is constantly > at the factory working things out as required. So, not only is this our > design, we are also onsite a lot of the time. > > This inverter is largely our design. We want people to know this as it > should build confidence in the product. Our batteries are the same. We > designed these units to be plug and play. It really is that simple and goof > proof. The reason we are not making them here is we just can’t come close > to the price we are getting with our partners over there. Far as I know > MidNite Solar is the last manufacturer still building this kind of product > in the US. Our Rosie, Barcelona, Hawke’s Bay, Classic, Kid etc. are still > 100% built here in the USA. Funny thing though, we do not think we qualify > for Bidens IRA bill for made in America? It says we have to use all > American parts. That is impossible for anyone. There is an exception that > would allow us to farm out the circuit boards to a contract manufacturer. > Then it doesn’t matter where the components come from! We build our own > boards right there in Arlington WA due to cost. Sometimes you just can’t > win, but we are doing fine without the governments help. > > > > I would appreciate it if you could post this on the wrenches list. I am > not allowed to. We want people to know that this new inverter is truly a > MidNite design. It is better than Solark in so many ways. One thing we do > know is inverter design. History pretty much proves that out. > > > > Thank you, > > Robin Gudgel > > MidNite Sola > > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > > > On Aug 1, 2024, at 8:29 AM, Maverick Brown > wrote: > > I think the best description would be assembled in the US with foreign > and domestic parts. I don’t know the level of assembly in Washington vs > what is assembled overseas. > > MidNite vows to have been heavily involved in the design and production > and they also committed to board level swaps available to repair the AIO > and those will be stocked by vendors, like Current Connected. > > > > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > > > On Aug 1, 2024, at 8:11 AM, James Jarvis via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > So is the Midnite AIO made in USA? Or is it just USA branding / firmware / > support on China made hardware? > > Thanks > > On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 8:08 AM jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Sol Ark is definitely not made in america. >> >> >> On Aug 1, 2024, at 6:17 AM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> The AIO is subcontract manufactured similarly to how the solark is made. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sun Aug 4 09:14:21 2024 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2024 07:14:21 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000 Vdc Suppliers Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, Does anyone have a good recommendation for a 1000Vdc equipment supplier? Disconnects, combiners, fusing etc is what I am looking for. I have found it difficult to get any type of response from Terrasmart or Shoals Thanks! -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirpal at oregonsolarworks.com Sun Aug 4 09:17:27 2024 From: kirpal at oregonsolarworks.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2024 06:17:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000 Vdc Suppliers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: DC Sunvolt. L Kirpal Oregon Solarworks On Sun, Aug 4, 2024, 6:15 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > Does anyone have a good recommendation for a 1000Vdc equipment supplier? > Disconnects, combiners, fusing etc is what I am looking for. > > I have found it difficult to get any type of response from Terrasmart or > Shoals > > Thanks! > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From iesbatteries at gmail.com Sun Aug 4 09:18:16 2024 From: iesbatteries at gmail.com (Daryl DeJoy) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2024 09:18:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000 Vdc Suppliers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a decent supply of 1000 vdc 2 pole and 4 pole DC breakers. Contact me off list if you'd like some, Mac. I keep at least 50 each in stock. Daryl DeJoy Island Energy Storage (207)479-2252 On Sun, Aug 4, 2024, 9:15 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > Does anyone have a good recommendation for a 1000Vdc equipment supplier? > Disconnects, combiners, fusing etc is what I am looking for. > > I have found it difficult to get any type of response from Terrasmart or > Shoals > > Thanks! > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Sun Aug 4 09:24:39 2024 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2024 06:24:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000 Vdc Suppliers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: IMO always attends the NABCEP conference and they have a nice solar product line: https://imopc.com/imo_uk_gbp_view/products/solar/dc-isolators-dc-disconnects/si-series/si-series-enclosed.html On Sun, Aug 4, 2024, 6:21 AM Daryl DeJoy via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I have a decent supply of 1000 vdc 2 pole and 4 pole DC breakers. Contact > me off list if you'd like some, Mac. I keep at least 50 each in stock. > > Daryl DeJoy > Island Energy Storage > (207)479-2252 > > On Sun, Aug 4, 2024, 9:15 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> Does anyone have a good recommendation for a 1000Vdc equipment supplier? >> Disconnects, combiners, fusing etc is what I am looking for. >> >> I have found it difficult to get any type of response from Terrasmart >> or Shoals >> >> Thanks! >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Sun Aug 4 13:10:01 2024 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2024 10:10:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Suntech 170 Message-ID: <1722791401.85815084@webmail.finestplanet.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: img-0.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 91948 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Mon Aug 5 07:24:39 2024 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2024 07:24:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MN 15-12KW-AIO In-Reply-To: <8b7ed2c5-6ab2-2bbd-b45f-71d78df5af40@midnitesolar.com> References: <8b7ed2c5-6ab2-2bbd-b45f-71d78df5af40@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: Thanks to everyone for comments and observations. I'd like to use Midnite AOI on this one. It will probably be my last install given the utility policies and my refusal to do any more unnecessary utility side connections because our company president is from Vermont Electric Coop and is a regulatory and technical dinosaur.  Small state, small island, small minds, big egos, AWOL regulators.  Why did we invest is smart meters if they are not leveraged? Chris On 8/1/2024 4:20 PM, bob at midnitesolar.com wrote: > > Sorry about the recent problem with support. > MidNite recently got a new (supposedly better of course) IT and phone > system.  That system still has some glitches > which is part of the phone support but should work OK during the day > or maybe all the time now ? > > Remember that  you can always email support at midnitesolar.com > > support at mid*NIGHT*solar.com should work in most cases but not always.  > Good thing would be to spell NIGHT  as *NITE *instead > if you can to make sure the email goes to where it is supposed to go. > > As for the AIO,  yes it is made in China.  You are not going to find a > Made in USA AIO for any reasonable price. > China is getting very good at this stuff. Too good.  Look at Sol-Ark.  > They have done very well by partnering with Deye. > Looking like the AIO ONE from MidNite is less expensive and just as > reliable. > > The AIO is made by an experienced manufacturer in China but is new to > the US market, as are a lot of Chinese AIO inverter > manufacturers.  But even this company needed help with the > implementation of some battery inter-workings (closed loop) > and 120/240 VAC and stacking.  Also other software to be able to be > used here. > > I know we all love SMA but we wish they would have catered more to the > US on the Sunny Island by making a 120/240 version > instead of having to use big and expensive auto-formers. > > MidNite would like to concentrate on products that are able to be made > in Arlington Washington like the Rosie and Little Rosie. > But some things are best left to the Chinese for manufacture.  AIO is > most likely the best thing that they do in our industry but > not without some help along the way.  It's amazing how fast they > respond to requests and changes for MidNite. > > P.S.  We are all getting older.  Don't be afraid to see your Dr. once > in a while to help us get even older ! > > 🌜boB🌛 > On 8/1/2024 11:55 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Thank you all, I was afraid that it was China sourced.  Accountants >> bought in with giving China the keys to the kingdom in order to >> temporarily shave costs, once again.  I like Germany's approach, keep >> one or two steps ahead of them. >> >> Chris >> >> On 8/1/2024 11:10 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: >>> >>> Backwoods Solar sent out an announcement on July 11 that it is in >>> stock and shipping, Chris. You might contact them. >>> Allan >>> >>>> On Aug 1, 2024, at 4:52 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hello, >>>> >>>> I have a one week old information request into Midnite regarding >>>> the MN 15-12KW-AIO, but no response yet. >>>> >>>> Has anyone have information on how it is performing during its >>>> early production phase, and does anyone have information on when it >>>> will be available. >>>> >>>> It is either them or SolArk at this point and I would prefer >>>> Midnite for made in America reasons. >>>> >>>> Thank you, Chris >>>> >>>> -- >>>>   Christopher Warfel >>>>           ENTECH Engineering Inc. >>>>    PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>>>                   401-477-5773 >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>> try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >> -- >> Christopher Warfel >>           ENTECH Engineering Inc. >>    PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>                   401-477-5773 >> EE Logo >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -- Christopher Warfel           ENTECH Engineering Inc.    PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                   401-477-5773 EE Logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/vcard Size: 203 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Aug 6 10:30:13 2024 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2024 07:30:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power Control System for Main Panel Upgrade Avoidance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jason - There are many options on how a manufacturer can implement Power Control Systems (PCS) and based on my experience with Tesla products, I'd say it's the best thing since sliced bread. I expect that all major manufactures will be implementing more advanced PCS features as soon as they are able to develop and list them. But, getting back to your question - one PCS variant is a simple conductor limit setting that stops controlled equipment output when a certain set current limit is reached. This, as you point out, may not be the best choice for large PV/inverter systems. Another PCS setting involves setting a controlled "virtual panel" where all inputs are monitored. This PCS setting can be, for example, 160 Amps in your 200 A meter/main example. Here is more info on how that works: https://service.tesla.com/docs/Public/Energy/Powerwall/Powerwall-2-Backup-Gateway-2-Installation-Manual-NA-EN/GUID-D71DFD63-1414-4915-B7A5-7E48703100DE.html I'm working on learning more about Enphase systems currently since SunPower is filing for bankruptcy, so it's good to learn what Enphase can and can't do at this point. Best, August On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 10:40 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Note: This email is written from the perspective of the Enphase > terminology, but the concept and question is the same in a general > sense. > > > I am having a hard time understanding the logic and benefit of a power > control system that is used for avoiding a main panel upgrade in a > typical residence. If you have a 200A main panel bus with a 200A main > breaker, the current limit for a backfed breaker is 32A from the PV, > no matter what. The PCS will artificially reduce the PV output to 32A > when it could be capable of a much higher current for large systems > depending on sunlight availability. That would waste a lot of energy > if the PV system is significantly larger than a 32A output rating. > > The PCS standards seem to have missed the mark. Wouldn't it make more > sense to limit the total current delivered to the bus from all > sources? For example, in the example above, if PV is delivering 40A, > why not allow limiting utility input to 120A for a total of 160A > continuous delivered to the bus before PV is throttled? If the utility > is delivering zero, the PV could deliver all the way up to 160A the > the bus if capable. That way, all of the loads would be powered to the > maximum extent from PV with the excess exported (if allowed via net > metering from the serving utility). > > Am I missing something about how PCS works? I just don't see many use > cases for main panel avoidance that are in customers' best interest. > If we can't meet the 120% rule, we just do supply-side > interconnections so nothing is wasted. But a backfed breaker would be > so much easier if PCS were implemented in the way that I would like it > to work. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Aug 6 10:36:50 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2024 10:36:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power Control System for Main Panel Upgrade Avoidance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Very interesting. Thanks for this information. It seems like Tesla has implemented PCS in the way that I hoped it would be. They can set an aggregate current limit from all sources feeding a bus. Unless I am mistaken, Enphase can only limit based on a selected ampacity of *backfeed* from their System Controller to a main panel. It does not measure the incoming utility power and set an aggregate output limit from all sources. That results in a 40A backfeed limit on a 200A panel, which does not make sense to me. I hope I have this wrong. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 10:30 AM August Goers wrote: > > Hi Jason - > > There are many options on how a manufacturer can implement Power Control Systems (PCS) and based on my experience with Tesla products, I'd say it's the best thing since sliced bread. I expect that all major manufactures will be implementing more advanced PCS features as soon as they are able to develop and list them. > > But, getting back to your question - one PCS variant is a simple conductor limit setting that stops controlled equipment output when a certain set current limit is reached. This, as you point out, may not be the best choice for large PV/inverter systems. Another PCS setting involves setting a controlled "virtual panel" where all inputs are monitored. This PCS setting can be, for example, 160 Amps in your 200 A meter/main example. Here is more info on how that works: https://service.tesla.com/docs/Public/Energy/Powerwall/Powerwall-2-Backup-Gateway-2-Installation-Manual-NA-EN/GUID-D71DFD63-1414-4915-B7A5-7E48703100DE.html > > I'm working on learning more about Enphase systems currently since SunPower is filing for bankruptcy, so it's good to learn what Enphase can and can't do at this point. > > Best, August > > > On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 10:40 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Note: This email is written from the perspective of the Enphase >> terminology, but the concept and question is the same in a general >> sense. >> >> >> I am having a hard time understanding the logic and benefit of a power >> control system that is used for avoiding a main panel upgrade in a >> typical residence. If you have a 200A main panel bus with a 200A main >> breaker, the current limit for a backfed breaker is 32A from the PV, >> no matter what. The PCS will artificially reduce the PV output to 32A >> when it could be capable of a much higher current for large systems >> depending on sunlight availability. That would waste a lot of energy >> if the PV system is significantly larger than a 32A output rating. >> >> The PCS standards seem to have missed the mark. Wouldn't it make more >> sense to limit the total current delivered to the bus from all >> sources? For example, in the example above, if PV is delivering 40A, >> why not allow limiting utility input to 120A for a total of 160A >> continuous delivered to the bus before PV is throttled? If the utility >> is delivering zero, the PV could deliver all the way up to 160A the >> the bus if capable. That way, all of the loads would be powered to the >> maximum extent from PV with the excess exported (if allowed via net >> metering from the serving utility). >> >> Am I missing something about how PCS works? I just don't see many use >> cases for main panel avoidance that are in customers' best interest. >> If we can't meet the 120% rule, we just do supply-side >> interconnections so nothing is wasted. But a backfed breaker would be >> so much easier if PCS were implemented in the way that I would like it >> to work. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Tue Aug 6 11:21:55 2024 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2024 15:21:55 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bergey Powersynch 10 Message-ID: ISO a refurbished inverter for a Bergey Excel Inverter, or a source for a different manufacturer of an inverter that would work. Contact me off list if needed. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. From kirpal at oregonsolarworks.com Tue Aug 6 20:35:05 2024 From: kirpal at oregonsolarworks.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2024 17:35:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue Planet Energy Message-ID: Hi Folks.... Anyone else having trouble getting ahold of Blue Planet Energy? They aren't returning calls even to sell new product....I am wondering if they are still a going concern.... With all the changes these days I am.just buckling in for the solar coaster ride!!! Thanks! Kirpal Oregon Solarworks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From adirondackbattery at gmail.com Tue Aug 6 20:58:50 2024 From: adirondackbattery at gmail.com (Amanda Potter) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2024 20:58:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue Planet Energy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <281EB976-5D6C-4B8B-9D2A-F0055C02DFD3@gmail.com> That’s not good. Not “warm n fuzzy”… Amanda Potter Energy Storage Specialist NABCEP PV Installation Professional NYSERDA Eligible PV Installer Adirondack Battery & Solar, LLC Potsdam, NY (315) 212-2114 Call/ Text > On Aug 6, 2024, at 8:35 PM, Kirpal Khalsa via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Hi Folks.... > Anyone else having trouble getting ahold of Blue Planet Energy? They aren't returning calls even to sell new product....I am wondering if they are still a going concern.... > With all the changes these days I am.just buckling in for the solar coaster ride!!! > Thanks! > Kirpal > Oregon Solarworks > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Aug 6 22:24:51 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2024 20:24:51 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue Planet Energy In-Reply-To: <281EB976-5D6C-4B8B-9D2A-F0055C02DFD3@gmail.com> References: <281EB976-5D6C-4B8B-9D2A-F0055C02DFD3@gmail.com> Message-ID: Since we are asking about that. Does anyone have any news on Outback? From william at millersolar.com Tue Aug 6 22:32:14 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2024 19:32:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue Planet Energy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: They called me today to sell me more batteries but they can’t fix my SMA system. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 5:35 PM Kirpal Khalsa via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Folks.... > Anyone else having trouble getting ahold of Blue Planet Energy? They > aren't returning calls even to sell new product....I am wondering if they > are still a going concern.... > With all the changes these days I am.just buckling in for the solar > coaster ride!!! > Thanks! > Kirpal > Oregon Solarworks > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Aug 7 09:46:18 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2024 13:46:18 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power Control System for Main Panel Upgrade Avoidance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1d3d6cb4-6dc3-6b17-0458-f2852f660724@floridasolardesigngroup.com> I confirmed via this video (https://app.gotowebinar.com/unified/index.html#/webinar/6915785636472410201/attend/2085639858551605341 [https://app.gotowebinar.com/unified/index.html#/webinar/6915785636472410201/attend/2085639858551605341]) that Enphase does, in fact, limit backfeed based on the 120% rule when implementing PCS for main panel upgrade avoidance. That is disappointing. Based on my reading of 705.13(B), as long as the utility feed is monitored by the PCS, the PCS only needs to limit the PV source such that the TOTAL current from all sources does not exceed the busbar ampacity rating. Since Enphase can implement consumption monitoring with CTs on the line side of the main panel, they should be able to limit PV backfeed based on how much current is coming from the utility company rather than the far more limiting 120% rule. This seriously diminishes the value of Enphase's PCS implementation for main panel upgrade avoidance. To be fair, Tesla's PCS, to accomplish what I want, requires a Gateway (MID). that significantly adds to the cost and complexity, and is really intended for Powerwall systems. But Enphase should be able to implement PCS this way using it's IQ Gateway without their System Controller (MID) for grid-interactive PV systems without batteries. This appears to be a big miss on the part of Enphase. Maybe they are misinterpreting 705.13(B), or maybe there is a technical reason that they can't comply in this manner. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 [data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAP///wAAACwAAAAAAQABAAACAkQBADs=3D] On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 10:36 AM Jason Szumlanski wrote: > Very interesting. Thanks for this information. It seems like Tesla has > implemented PCS in the way that I hoped it would be. They can set an > aggregate current limit from all sources feeding a bus. > > Unless I am mistaken, Enphase can only limit based on a selected > ampacity of *backfeed* from their System Controller to a main panel. > It does not measure the incoming utility power and set an aggregate > output limit from all sources. That results in a 40A backfeed limit on > a 200A panel, which does not make sense to me. > > I hope I have this wrong. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 10:30 AM August Goers [august at luminalt.com]> wrote: > > > > Hi Jason - > > > > There are many options on how a manufacturer can implement Power Control > Systems (PCS) and based on my experience with Tesla products, I'd say it's the > best thing since sliced bread. I expect that all major manufactures will be > implementing more advanced PCS features as soon as they are able to develop > and list them. > > > > But, getting back to your question - one PCS variant is a simple conductor > limit setting that stops controlled equipment output when a certain set > current limit is reached. This, as you point out, may not be the best choice > for large PV/inverter systems. Another PCS setting involves setting a > controlled "virtual panel" where all inputs are monitored. This PCS setting > can be, for example, 160 Amps in your 200 A meter/main example. Here is more > info on how that works: https://service.tesla.com/docs > /Public/Energy/Powerwall/Powerwall-2-Backup-Gateway-2-Instal > lation-Manual-NA-EN/GUID-D71DFD63-1414-4915-B7A5-7E48703100DE.html > [https://service.tesla.com/docs/Public/Energy/Powerwall/Powerwall-2-Backup-Gateway-2-Installation-Manual-NA-EN/GUID-D71DFD63-1414-4915-B7A5-7E48703100DE.html] > > > > I'm working on learning more about Enphase systems currently since SunPower > is filing for bankruptcy, so it's good to learn what Enphase can and can't do > at this point. > > > > Best, August > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 10:40 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org]> wrote: > >> > >> Note: This email is written from the perspective of the Enphase > >> terminology, but the concept and question is the same in a general > >> sense. > >> > >> > >> I am having a hard time understanding the logic and benefit of a power > >> control system that is used for avoiding a main panel upgrade in a > >> typical residence. If you have a 200A main panel bus with a 200A main > >> breaker, the current limit for a backfed breaker is 32A from the PV, > >> no matter what. The PCS will artificially reduce the PV output to 32A > >> when it could be capable of a much higher current for large systems > >> depending on sunlight availability. That would waste a lot of energy > >> if the PV system is significantly larger than a 32A output rating. > >> > >> The PCS standards seem to have missed the mark. Wouldn't it make more > >> sense to limit the total current delivered to the bus from all > >> sources? For example, in the example above, if PV is delivering 40A, > >> why not allow limiting utility input to 120A for a total of 160A > >> continuous delivered to the bus before PV is throttled? If the utility > >> is delivering zero, the PV could deliver all the way up to 160A the > >> the bus if capable. That way, all of the loads would be powered to the > >> maximum extent from PV with the excess exported (if allowed via net > >> metering from the serving utility). > >> > >> Am I missing something about how PCS works? I just don't see many use > >> cases for main panel avoidance that are in customers' best interest. > >> If we can't meet the 120% rule, we just do supply-side > >> interconnections so nothing is wasted. But a backfed breaker would be > >> so much easier if PCS were implemented in the way that I would like it > >> to work. > >> > >> Jason Szumlanski > >> Florida Solar Design Group > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > [http://re-wrenches.org] > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > [RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > >> > >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] > >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Aug 7 10:10:31 2024 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2024 07:10:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power Control System for Main Panel Upgrade Avoidance In-Reply-To: <1d3d6cb4-6dc3-6b17-0458-f2852f660724@floridasolardesigngroup.com> References: <1d3d6cb4-6dc3-6b17-0458-f2852f660724@floridasolardesigngroup.com> Message-ID: Hi Jason - I suspect that Enphase is working on the "panel limits" type feature, it really makes a lot of sense as you point out. Tesla has been rolling out PCS features at a rapid pace - their solar inverter now has panel limits whereas it didn't a few months ago. To respond to one of your comments, we can also use panel limits with the Backup Switch which is Tesla's meter socket Microgrid Interconnect Device (MID). The Backup Switch has the site metering built in. Installations with Backup Switch and Powerwall for whole-home backup are nearly as fast as PV-only builds. I heard from our Enphase rep that they are hopefully releasing their meter socket adapter product in Q1 of 2025. Game changer! August On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 6:46 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I confirmed via this video ( > https://app.gotowebinar.com/unified/index.html#/webinar/6915785636472410201/attend/2085639858551605341) > that Enphase does, in fact, limit backfeed based on the 120% rule when > implementing PCS for main panel upgrade avoidance. That is disappointing. > > Based on my reading of 705.13(B), as long as the utility feed is monitored > by the PCS, the PCS only needs to limit the PV source such that the TOTAL > current from all sources does not exceed the busbar ampacity rating. Since > Enphase can implement consumption monitoring with CTs on the line side of > the main panel, they should be able to limit PV backfeed based on how much > current is coming from the utility company rather than the far more > limiting 120% rule. This seriously diminishes the value of Enphase's PCS > implementation for main panel upgrade avoidance. > > To be fair, Tesla's PCS, to accomplish what I want, requires a Gateway > (MID). that significantly adds to the cost and complexity, and is really > intended for Powerwall systems. But Enphase should be able to implement PCS > this way using it's IQ Gateway *without *their System Controller (MID) > for grid-interactive PV systems without batteries. This appears to be a big > miss on the part of Enphase. Maybe they are misinterpreting 705.13(B), or > maybe there is a technical reason that they can't comply in this manner. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 10:36 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> Very interesting. Thanks for this information. It seems like Tesla has >> implemented PCS in the way that I hoped it would be. They can set an >> aggregate current limit from all sources feeding a bus. >> >> Unless I am mistaken, Enphase can only limit based on a selected >> ampacity of *backfeed* from their System Controller to a main panel. >> It does not measure the incoming utility power and set an aggregate >> output limit from all sources. That results in a 40A backfeed limit on >> a 200A panel, which does not make sense to me. >> >> I hope I have this wrong. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 10:30 AM August Goers wrote: >> > >> > Hi Jason - >> > >> > There are many options on how a manufacturer can implement Power >> Control Systems (PCS) and based on my experience with Tesla products, I'd >> say it's the best thing since sliced bread. I expect that all major >> manufactures will be implementing more advanced PCS features as soon as >> they are able to develop and list them. >> > >> > But, getting back to your question - one PCS variant is a simple >> conductor limit setting that stops controlled equipment output when a >> certain set current limit is reached. This, as you point out, may not be >> the best choice for large PV/inverter systems. Another PCS setting involves >> setting a controlled "virtual panel" where all inputs are monitored. This >> PCS setting can be, for example, 160 Amps in your 200 A meter/main example. >> Here is more info on how that works: >> https://service.tesla.com/docs/Public/Energy/Powerwall/Powerwall-2-Backup-Gateway-2-Installation-Manual-NA-EN/GUID-D71DFD63-1414-4915-B7A5-7E48703100DE.html >> > >> > I'm working on learning more about Enphase systems currently since >> SunPower is filing for bankruptcy, so it's good to learn what Enphase can >> and can't do at this point. >> > >> > Best, August >> > >> > >> > On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 10:40 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> Note: This email is written from the perspective of the Enphase >> >> terminology, but the concept and question is the same in a general >> >> sense. >> >> >> >> >> >> I am having a hard time understanding the logic and benefit of a power >> >> control system that is used for avoiding a main panel upgrade in a >> >> typical residence. If you have a 200A main panel bus with a 200A main >> >> breaker, the current limit for a backfed breaker is 32A from the PV, >> >> no matter what. The PCS will artificially reduce the PV output to 32A >> >> when it could be capable of a much higher current for large systems >> >> depending on sunlight availability. That would waste a lot of energy >> >> if the PV system is significantly larger than a 32A output rating. >> >> >> >> The PCS standards seem to have missed the mark. Wouldn't it make more >> >> sense to limit the total current delivered to the bus from all >> >> sources? For example, in the example above, if PV is delivering 40A, >> >> why not allow limiting utility input to 120A for a total of 160A >> >> continuous delivered to the bus before PV is throttled? If the utility >> >> is delivering zero, the PV could deliver all the way up to 160A the >> >> the bus if capable. That way, all of the loads would be powered to the >> >> maximum extent from PV with the excess exported (if allowed via net >> >> metering from the serving utility). >> >> >> >> Am I missing something about how PCS works? I just don't see many use >> >> cases for main panel avoidance that are in customers' best interest. >> >> If we can't meet the 120% rule, we just do supply-side >> >> interconnections so nothing is wasted. But a backfed breaker would be >> >> so much easier if PCS were implemented in the way that I would like it >> >> to work. >> >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Aug 7 10:24:51 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2024 14:24:51 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power Control System for Main Panel Upgrade Avoidance In-Reply-To: References: <1d3d6cb4-6dc3-6b17-0458-f2852f660724@floridasolardesigngroup.com> Message-ID: I spoke to my engineer, and he had a discussion with Enphase about this months ago. Apparently, there was a testing issue with PCS, and Enphase was looking at retesting, maybe with a new NRTL. I reached out to Enphase engineering and will report back if I get any new information.  Regarding the sockets... Florida Power & Light vehemently rejected the ConnectDER and, from what I understand, also does not accept the Tesla Backup Switch. They do not allow anything connected to the meter socket that they do not provide. After all, how are they going to steal $12 a month from people for their surge protector otherwise?! And there is no more than a snowball's chance that the local municipal electric provider will allow it. So meter socket based transfer switches are out around here. That puts Enphase at an advantage over Tesla here for simple PV only systems, since Enphase should be able to implement PCS with their relatively low cost gateway, whereas Tesla will need to install a MID, which could require a meter disconnect/reconnect, and that can be a nightmare to schedule and coordinate here. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 [data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAP///wAAACwAAAAAAQABAAACAkQBADs=3D] On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 10:10 AM August Goers wrote: > Hi Jason - I suspect that Enphase is working on the "panel limits" type > feature, it really makes a lot of sense as you point out. Tesla has been > rolling out PCS features at a rapid pace - their solar inverter now has panel > limits whereas it didn't a few months ago. To respond to one of your comments, > we can also use panel limits with the Backup Switch which is Tesla's meter > socket Microgrid Interconnect Device (MID). The Backup Switch has the site > metering built in. Installations with Backup Switch and Powerwall for > whole-home backup are nearly as fast as PV-only builds.  > > > I heard from our Enphase rep that they are hopefully releasing their meter > socket adapter product in Q1 of 2025. Game changer! > > > August > > > > On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 6:46 AM Jason Szumlanski floridasolardesigngroup.com [jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com]> wrote: > > > I confirmed via this video (https://app.gotowebinar.com/ > > unified/index.html#/webinar/6915785636472410201/attend/2085639858551605341 > > [https://app.gotowebinar.com/unified/index.html#/webinar/6915785636472410201/attend/2085639858551605341] > > ) that Enphase does, in fact, limit backfeed based on the 120% rule when > > implementing PCS for main panel upgrade avoidance. That is disappointing. > > > > > > Based on my reading of 705.13(B), as long as the utility feed is monitored > > by the PCS, the PCS only needs to limit the PV source such that the TOTAL > > current from all sources does not exceed the busbar ampacity rating. Since > > Enphase can implement consumption monitoring with CTs on the line side of > > the main panel, they should be able to limit PV backfeed based on how much > > current is coming from the utility company rather than the far more limiting > > 120% rule. This seriously diminishes the value of Enphase's PCS > > implementation for main panel upgrade avoidance. > > > > > > To be fair, Tesla's PCS, to accomplish what I want, requires a Gateway > > (MID). that significantly adds to the cost and complexity, and is really > > intended for Powerwall systems. But Enphase should be able to implement PCS > > this way using it's IQ Gateway without their System Controller (MID) for > > grid-interactive PV systems without batteries. This appears to be a big miss > > on the part of Enphase. Maybe they are misinterpreting 705.13(B), or maybe > > there is a technical reason that they can't comply in this manner. > > > > > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > > > > [data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7] > > On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 10:36 AM Jason Szumlanski > floridasolardesigngroup.com [jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com]> wrote: > > > > > > > Very interesting. Thanks for this information. It seems like Tesla has > > > implemented PCS in the way that I hoped it would be. They can set an > > > aggregate current limit from all sources feeding a bus. > > > > > > Unless I am mistaken, Enphase can only limit based on a selected > > > ampacity of *backfeed* from their System Controller to a main panel. > > > It does not measure the incoming utility power and set an aggregate > > > output limit from all sources. That results in a 40A backfeed limit on > > > a 200A panel, which does not make sense to me. > > > > > > I hope I have this wrong. > > > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > > > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > > > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 10:30 AM August Goers > > [august at luminalt.com]> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Jason - > > > > > > > > There are many options on how a manufacturer can implement Power Control > > > Systems (PCS) and based on my experience with Tesla products, I'd say it's > > > the best thing since sliced bread. I expect that all major manufactures > > > will be implementing more advanced PCS features as soon as they are able > > > to develop and list them. > > > > > > > > But, getting back to your question - one PCS variant is a simple > > > conductor limit setting that stops controlled equipment output when a > > > certain set current limit is reached. This, as you point out, may not be > > > the best choice for large PV/inverter systems. Another PCS setting > > > involves setting a controlled "virtual panel" where all inputs are > > > monitored. This PCS setting can be, for example, 160 Amps in your 200 A > > > meter/main example. Here is more info on how that works: > > > https://service.tesla.com/docs/Public/Energy/Powerwall/ > > > Powerwall-2-Backup-Gateway-2-Installation-Manual-NA-EN/ > > > GUID-D71DFD63-1414-4915-B7A5-7E48703100DE.html > > > [https://service.tesla.com/docs/Public/Energy/Powerwall/Powerwall-2-Backup-Gateway-2-Installation-Manual-NA-EN/GUID-D71DFD63-1414-4915-B7A5-7E48703100DE.html] > > > > > > > > I'm working on learning more about Enphase systems currently since > > > SunPower is filing for bankruptcy, so it's good to learn what Enphase can > > > and can't do at this point. > > > > > > > > Best, August > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 10:40 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > > > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org]> > > > wrote: > > > >> > > > >> Note: This email is written from the perspective of the Enphase > > > >> terminology, but the concept and question is the same in a general > > > >> sense. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> I am having a hard time understanding the logic and benefit of a power > > > >> control system that is used for avoiding a main panel upgrade in a > > > >> typical residence. If you have a 200A main panel bus with a 200A main > > > >> breaker, the current limit for a backfed breaker is 32A from the PV, > > > >> no matter what. The PCS will artificially reduce the PV output to 32A > > > >> when it could be capable of a much higher current for large systems > > > >> depending on sunlight availability. That would waste a lot of energy > > > >> if the PV system is significantly larger than a 32A output rating. > > > >> > > > >> The PCS standards seem to have missed the mark. Wouldn't it make more > > > >> sense to limit the total current delivered to the bus from all > > > >> sources? For example, in the example above, if PV is delivering 40A, > > > >> why not allow limiting utility input to 120A for a total of 160A > > > >> continuous delivered to the bus before PV is throttled? If the utility > > > >> is delivering zero, the PV could deliver all the way up to 160A the > > > >> the bus if capable. That way, all of the loads would be powered to the > > > >> maximum extent from PV with the excess exported (if allowed via net > > > >> metering from the serving utility). > > > >> > > > >> Am I missing something about how PCS works? I just don't see many use > > > >> cases for main panel avoidance that are in customers' best interest. > > > >> If we can't meet the 120% rule, we just do supply-side > > > >> interconnections so nothing is wasted. But a backfed breaker would be > > > >> so much easier if PCS were implemented in the way that I would like it > > > >> to work. > > > >> > > > >> Jason Szumlanski > > > >> Florida Solar Design Group > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > >> > > > >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > [http://re-wrenches.org] > > > >> > > > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > [RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > > >> > > > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > > > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > >> > > > >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > > > the other: > > > >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > > [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] > > > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > >> > > > >> List rules & etiquette: > > > >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > > > >> > > > >> Check out or update participant bios: > > > >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] > > > >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Aug 7 10:49:07 2024 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2024 07:49:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power Control System for Main Panel Upgrade Avoidance In-Reply-To: References: <1d3d6cb4-6dc3-6b17-0458-f2852f660724@floridasolardesigngroup.com> Message-ID: Hopefully the utilities will start to change their policies with more and more demand for meter socket MIDs. They really make a lot of sense, and we've found that the process with our local utility PG&E is fairly straightforward. These socket adapters make sense for emergency generators ( https://www.pge.com/en/outages-and-safety/outage-preparedness-and-support/general-outage-resources/backup-power-transfer-meter-program.html) and eventually vehicle to grid/home as well. Just to clarify, for PV only, the Tesla Solar Inverter can do PCS panel limits without an MID - you just need CTs around the utility side feed. Anyway, I'm excited for all these changes and hope all manufacturers get PCS rolling. On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 7:24 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I spoke to my engineer, and he had a discussion with Enphase about this > months ago. Apparently, there was a testing issue with PCS, and Enphase was > looking at retesting, maybe with a new NRTL. I reached out to Enphase > engineering and will report back if I get any new information. > > Regarding the sockets... Florida Power & Light vehemently rejected the > ConnectDER and, from what I understand, also does not accept the Tesla > Backup Switch. They do not allow anything connected to the meter socket > that they do not provide. After all, how are they going to steal $12 a > month from people for their surge protector otherwise?! And there is no > more than a snowball's chance that the local municipal electric provider > will allow it. So meter socket based transfer switches are out around here. > > That puts Enphase at an advantage over Tesla here for simple PV only > systems, since Enphase should be able to implement PCS with their > relatively low cost gateway, whereas Tesla will need to install a MID, > which could require a meter disconnect/reconnect, and that can be a > nightmare to schedule and coordinate here. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 10:10 AM August Goers wrote: > >> Hi Jason - I suspect that Enphase is working on the "panel limits" type >> feature, it really makes a lot of sense as you point out. Tesla has been >> rolling out PCS features at a rapid pace - their solar inverter now has >> panel limits whereas it didn't a few months ago. To respond to one of your >> comments, we can also use panel limits with the Backup Switch which is >> Tesla's meter socket Microgrid Interconnect Device (MID). The Backup Switch >> has the site metering built in. Installations with Backup Switch and >> Powerwall for whole-home backup are nearly as fast as PV-only builds. >> >> I heard from our Enphase rep that they are hopefully releasing their >> meter socket adapter product in Q1 of 2025. Game changer! >> >> August >> >> >> On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 6:46 AM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> I confirmed via this video ( >>> https://app.gotowebinar.com/unified/index.html#/webinar/6915785636472410201/attend/2085639858551605341) >>> that Enphase does, in fact, limit backfeed based on the 120% rule when >>> implementing PCS for main panel upgrade avoidance. That is disappointing. >>> >>> Based on my reading of 705.13(B), as long as the utility feed is >>> monitored by the PCS, the PCS only needs to limit the PV source such that >>> the TOTAL current from all sources does not exceed the busbar ampacity >>> rating. Since Enphase can implement consumption monitoring with CTs on the >>> line side of the main panel, they should be able to limit PV backfeed based >>> on how much current is coming from the utility company rather than the far >>> more limiting 120% rule. This seriously diminishes the value of Enphase's >>> PCS implementation for main panel upgrade avoidance. >>> >>> To be fair, Tesla's PCS, to accomplish what I want, requires a Gateway >>> (MID). that significantly adds to the cost and complexity, and is really >>> intended for Powerwall systems. But Enphase should be able to implement PCS >>> this way using it's IQ Gateway *without *their System Controller (MID) >>> for grid-interactive PV systems without batteries. This appears to be a big >>> miss on the part of Enphase. Maybe they are misinterpreting 705.13(B), or >>> maybe there is a technical reason that they can't comply in this manner. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 10:36 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Very interesting. Thanks for this information. It seems like Tesla has >>>> implemented PCS in the way that I hoped it would be. They can set an >>>> aggregate current limit from all sources feeding a bus. >>>> >>>> Unless I am mistaken, Enphase can only limit based on a selected >>>> ampacity of *backfeed* from their System Controller to a main panel. >>>> It does not measure the incoming utility power and set an aggregate >>>> output limit from all sources. That results in a 40A backfeed limit on >>>> a 200A panel, which does not make sense to me. >>>> >>>> I hope I have this wrong. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>> >>>> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 10:30 AM August Goers >>>> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > Hi Jason - >>>> > >>>> > There are many options on how a manufacturer can implement Power >>>> Control Systems (PCS) and based on my experience with Tesla products, I'd >>>> say it's the best thing since sliced bread. I expect that all major >>>> manufactures will be implementing more advanced PCS features as soon as >>>> they are able to develop and list them. >>>> > >>>> > But, getting back to your question - one PCS variant is a simple >>>> conductor limit setting that stops controlled equipment output when a >>>> certain set current limit is reached. This, as you point out, may not be >>>> the best choice for large PV/inverter systems. Another PCS setting involves >>>> setting a controlled "virtual panel" where all inputs are monitored. This >>>> PCS setting can be, for example, 160 Amps in your 200 A meter/main example. >>>> Here is more info on how that works: >>>> https://service.tesla.com/docs/Public/Energy/Powerwall/Powerwall-2-Backup-Gateway-2-Installation-Manual-NA-EN/GUID-D71DFD63-1414-4915-B7A5-7E48703100DE.html >>>> > >>>> > I'm working on learning more about Enphase systems currently since >>>> SunPower is filing for bankruptcy, so it's good to learn what Enphase can >>>> and can't do at this point. >>>> > >>>> > Best, August >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 10:40 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >> Note: This email is written from the perspective of the Enphase >>>> >> terminology, but the concept and question is the same in a general >>>> >> sense. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> I am having a hard time understanding the logic and benefit of a >>>> power >>>> >> control system that is used for avoiding a main panel upgrade in a >>>> >> typical residence. If you have a 200A main panel bus with a 200A main >>>> >> breaker, the current limit for a backfed breaker is 32A from the PV, >>>> >> no matter what. The PCS will artificially reduce the PV output to 32A >>>> >> when it could be capable of a much higher current for large systems >>>> >> depending on sunlight availability. That would waste a lot of energy >>>> >> if the PV system is significantly larger than a 32A output rating. >>>> >> >>>> >> The PCS standards seem to have missed the mark. Wouldn't it make more >>>> >> sense to limit the total current delivered to the bus from all >>>> >> sources? For example, in the example above, if PV is delivering 40A, >>>> >> why not allow limiting utility input to 120A for a total of 160A >>>> >> continuous delivered to the bus before PV is throttled? If the >>>> utility >>>> >> is delivering zero, the PV could deliver all the way up to 160A the >>>> >> the bus if capable. That way, all of the loads would be powered to >>>> the >>>> >> maximum extent from PV with the excess exported (if allowed via net >>>> >> metering from the serving utility). >>>> >> >>>> >> Am I missing something about how PCS works? I just don't see many use >>>> >> cases for main panel avoidance that are in customers' best interest. >>>> >> If we can't meet the 120% rule, we just do supply-side >>>> >> interconnections so nothing is wasted. But a backfed breaker would be >>>> >> so much easier if PCS were implemented in the way that I would like >>>> it >>>> >> to work. >>>> >> >>>> >> Jason Szumlanski >>>> >> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >> >>>> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >> >>>> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >> >>>> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >> >>>> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>> try the other: >>>> >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >> >>>> >> List rules & etiquette: >>>> >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >> >>>> >> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >> >>>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Aug 7 10:55:09 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2024 14:55:09 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power Control System for Main Panel Upgrade Avoidance In-Reply-To: References: <1d3d6cb4-6dc3-6b17-0458-f2852f660724@floridasolardesigngroup.com> Message-ID: <824d1364-39af-1b1b-65e3-a25395b7fad9@floridasolardesigngroup.com> Surprise, surprise. Enphase got back to me, and they do have certification for what they call "busbar overload control." It is in beta and should be live by the end of this month. They have not published a tech brief yet, but they did send me some documentation.  Reach me off-list if you are interested in those resources. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 [data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAP///wAAACwAAAAAAQABAAACAkQBADs=3D] On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 10:24 AM Jason Szumlanski wrote: > I spoke to my engineer, and he had a discussion with Enphase about this months > ago. Apparently, there was a testing issue with PCS, and Enphase was looking > at retesting, maybe with a new NRTL. I reached out to Enphase engineering and > will report back if I get any new information.  > > > Regarding the sockets... Florida Power & Light vehemently rejected the > ConnectDER and, from what I understand, also does not accept the Tesla Backup > Switch. They do not allow anything connected to the meter socket that they do > not provide. After all, how are they going to steal $12 a month from people > for their surge protector otherwise?! And there is no more than a snowball's > chance that the local municipal electric provider will allow it. So meter > socket based transfer switches are out around here. > > > That puts Enphase at an advantage over Tesla here for simple PV only systems, > since Enphase should be able to implement PCS with their relatively low cost > gateway, whereas Tesla will need to install a MID, which could require a meter > disconnect/reconnect, and that can be a nightmare to schedule and coordinate > here. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 10:10 AM August Goers [august at luminalt.com]> wrote: > > > Hi Jason - I suspect that Enphase is working on the "panel limits" type > > feature, it really makes a lot of sense as you point out. Tesla has been > > rolling out PCS features at a rapid pace - their solar inverter now has > > panel limits whereas it didn't a few months ago. To respond to one of your > > comments, we can also use panel limits with the Backup Switch which is > > Tesla's meter socket Microgrid Interconnect Device (MID). The Backup Switch > > has the site metering built in. Installations with Backup Switch and > > Powerwall for whole-home backup are nearly as fast as PV-only builds.  > > > > > > I heard from our Enphase rep that they are hopefully releasing their meter > > socket adapter product in Q1 of 2025. Game changer! > > > > > > August > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 6:46 AM Jason Szumlanski > floridasolardesigngroup.com [jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com]> wrote: > > > > > I confirmed via this video (https://app.gotowebinar.com/ > > > unified/index.html#/webinar/6915785636472410201/attend/2085639858551605341 > > > [https://app.gotowebinar.com/unified/index.html#/webinar/6915785636472410201/attend/2085639858551605341] > > > ) that Enphase does, in fact, limit backfeed based on the 120% rule when > > > implementing PCS for main panel upgrade avoidance. That is disappointing. > > > > > > > > > Based on my reading of 705.13(B), as long as the utility feed is monitored > > > by the PCS, the PCS only needs to limit the PV source such that the TOTAL > > > current from all sources does not exceed the busbar ampacity rating. Since > > > Enphase can implement consumption monitoring with CTs on the line side of > > > the main panel, they should be able to limit PV backfeed based on how much > > > current is coming from the utility company rather than the far more > > > limiting 120% rule. This seriously diminishes the value of Enphase's PCS > > > implementation for main panel upgrade avoidance. > > > > > > > > > To be fair, Tesla's PCS, to accomplish what I want, requires a Gateway > > > (MID). that significantly adds to the cost and complexity, and is really > > > intended for Powerwall systems. But Enphase should be able to implement > > > PCS this way using it's IQ Gateway without their System Controller (MID) > > > for grid-interactive PV systems without batteries. This appears to be a > > > big miss on the part of Enphase. Maybe they are misinterpreting 705.13(B), > > > or maybe there is a technical reason that they can't comply in this > > > manner. > > > > > > > > > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > > > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > > > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 10:36 AM Jason Szumlanski > > floridasolardesigngroup.com [jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Very interesting. Thanks for this information. It seems like Tesla has > > > > implemented PCS in the way that I hoped it would be. They can set an > > > > aggregate current limit from all sources feeding a bus. > > > > > > > > Unless I am mistaken, Enphase can only limit based on a selected > > > > ampacity of *backfeed* from their System Controller to a main panel. > > > > It does not measure the incoming utility power and set an aggregate > > > > output limit from all sources. That results in a 40A backfeed limit on > > > > a 200A panel, which does not make sense to me. > > > > > > > > I hope I have this wrong. > > > > > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > > > > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > > > > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > > > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 10:30 AM August Goers > > > [august at luminalt.com]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Jason - > > > > > > > > > > There are many options on how a manufacturer can implement Power > > > > Control Systems (PCS) and based on my experience with Tesla products, > > > > I'd say it's the best thing since sliced bread. I expect that all major > > > > manufactures will be implementing more advanced PCS features as soon as > > > > they are able to develop and list them. > > > > > > > > > > But, getting back to your question - one PCS variant is a simple > > > > conductor limit setting that stops controlled equipment output when a > > > > certain set current limit is reached. This, as you point out, may not be > > > > the best choice for large PV/inverter systems. Another PCS setting > > > > involves setting a controlled "virtual panel" where all inputs are > > > > monitored. This PCS setting can be, for example, 160 Amps in your 200 A > > > > meter/main example. Here is more info on how that works: > > > > https://service.tesla.com/docs/Public/Energy/Powerwall/ > > > > Powerwall-2-Backup-Gateway-2-Installation-Manual-NA-EN/ > > > > GUID-D71DFD63-1414-4915-B7A5-7E48703100DE.html > > > > [https://service.tesla.com/docs/Public/Energy/Powerwall/Powerwall-2-Backup-Gateway-2-Installation-Manual-NA-EN/GUID-D71DFD63-1414-4915-B7A5-7E48703100DE.html] > > > > > > > > > > I'm working on learning more about Enphase systems currently since > > > > SunPower is filing for bankruptcy, so it's good to learn what Enphase > > > > can and can't do at this point. > > > > > > > > > > Best, August > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 10:40 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > > > > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org]> > > > > wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> Note: This email is written from the perspective of the Enphase > > > > >> terminology, but the concept and question is the same in a general > > > > >> sense. > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> I am having a hard time understanding the logic and benefit of a > > > > power > > > > >> control system that is used for avoiding a main panel upgrade in a > > > > >> typical residence. If you have a 200A main panel bus with a 200A main > > > > >> breaker, the current limit for a backfed breaker is 32A from the PV, > > > > >> no matter what. The PCS will artificially reduce the PV output to 32A > > > > >> when it could be capable of a much higher current for large systems > > > > >> depending on sunlight availability. That would waste a lot of energy > > > > >> if the PV system is significantly larger than a 32A output rating. > > > > >> > > > > >> The PCS standards seem to have missed the mark. Wouldn't it make more > > > > >> sense to limit the total current delivered to the bus from all > > > > >> sources? For example, in the example above, if PV is delivering 40A, > > > > >> why not allow limiting utility input to 120A for a total of 160A > > > > >> continuous delivered to the bus before PV is throttled? If the > > > > utility > > > > >> is delivering zero, the PV could deliver all the way up to 160A the > > > > >> the bus if capable. That way, all of the loads would be powered to > > > > the > > > > >> maximum extent from PV with the excess exported (if allowed via net > > > > >> metering from the serving utility). > > > > >> > > > > >> Am I missing something about how PCS works? I just don't see many use > > > > >> cases for main panel avoidance that are in customers' best interest. > > > > >> If we can't meet the 120% rule, we just do supply-side > > > > >> interconnections so nothing is wasted. But a backfed breaker would be > > > > >> so much easier if PCS were implemented in the way that I would like > > > > it > > > > >> to work. > > > > >> > > > > >> Jason Szumlanski > > > > >> Florida Solar Design Group > > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > >> > > > > >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > [http://re-wrenches.org] > > > > >> > > > > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > [RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > > > >> > > > > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > > > > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > >> > > > > >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > > > > the other: > > > > >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > > > [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] > > > > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > >> > > > > >> List rules & etiquette: > > > > >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > > > > >> > > > > >> Check out or update participant bios: > > > > >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] > > > > >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu Aug 8 13:08:13 2024 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2024 13:08:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] vent fan with Sol-Ark Message-ID: Hi All, What do you all do to power an inline vent fan to vent a flooded lead acid battery bank with a Sol-Ark inverter? On Outback equipment, this is very straightforward to program a 12V relay in the equipment. I don't see anything similar in the Sol-Ark manual, and just tried calling them and person I talked to was clueless about why someone would need this. I have used one of the Zephyr in line fans in the past, like this one: https://www.thesolarbiz.com/zephyr-power-vent-fan-for-12-volt-battery-systems.html Does anyone have suggestions of a way to power something like this? Or a different way to actively vent a battery box? I prefer to not have a DC draw that does not go through the inverter if possible. Cheers, Dave -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu Aug 8 15:25:25 2024 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2024 15:25:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ESS and generator install in Concord, MA Message-ID: Hi All, Is anyone interested in, or can recommend someone, for an ESS and generator installation in Concord MA? It is not a good site for solar, and they are grid connected. If so, please contact me off list at dave at sungineersolar.com . Cheers, Dave -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Aug 13 09:21:05 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2024 07:21:05 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnight solar AIO webinar Message-ID: <6FB81B80-AA36-47F6-BD48-292ACD81CA21@gmail.com> midnite is having a webinar about the AIO and batteries. Sign up. Jay From kirpal at oregonsolarworks.com Tue Aug 13 10:43:29 2024 From: kirpal at oregonsolarworks.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2024 07:43:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnight solar AIO webinar In-Reply-To: <6FB81B80-AA36-47F6-BD48-292ACD81CA21@gmail.com> References: <6FB81B80-AA36-47F6-BD48-292ACD81CA21@gmail.com> Message-ID: When? Info or link? Thanks Kirpal On Tue, Aug 13, 2024, 6:21 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > midnite is having a webinar about the AIO and batteries. > Sign up. > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Aug 13 10:58:12 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2024 08:58:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnight solar AIO webinar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Aug 13 13:43:12 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2024 11:43:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rubix Batteries? Message-ID: Greetings Fellow Wrenches: I'm considering using the Rubix Lithium PO4 batteries being sold by Zonna Energy.  Has anyone tried them?  This is a 24v system, so choices are the Rubix or Simpiphi for 50% more cost.  I really lost confidence in Simpiphi after a total failure of 4 units, and then an almost 2 month warranty ordeal.   Any other 24v choices I should be aware of? As always, thanks in advance for your replies. Ray Walters Remote Solar From mick at abrahamsolar.com Tue Aug 13 15:16:19 2024 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2024 13:16:19 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge optimizers require amp deration? Message-ID: Hi, Wrench List colleagues~ I have a minor dispute with a technician at one of the solar superstores. He says the amp rating on SolarEdge optimizers needs a 25% "safety factor". SolarEdge's spec sheet says "Maximum Output Current" for model S500 is 15 amps. I'm not sure if the technician would take 25% off the 15a or if he boosts the Isc amps (on the PV datasheet) by 25%. In one case, his allowable short circuit amps (from the datasheet) would be 11.25a and in the other case it's 12a. If he's right, this "500 watt optimizer" could only process 500 watts in an unusual combination of Vmp and Imp. I know the PV's open circuit voltage should be calculated higher based on the lowest possible cell temperature, but I can't find any SolarEdge reference materials that address the amperage. I checked the SolarEdge videos, installation documents, and I even spent time in voicemail perdition. Their design tool at designer.solaredge.com did suggest the S500 optimizer after I entered all the parameters for my preferred module. Nothing else from SolarEdge so far...so it's Wrenchie time. It would be especially helpful if someone has a white paper or other document to clear this up. I'm pretty sure the technician wrong on this point, but I'd like to offer more than just my opinion. BTW, the PV's that I'd like to use are 450 watt monocrystalline, two strings of 54 cells and 14.55 amps short circuit current. The relatively low cell count does translate into higher amps per rated watt compared to a module with more cells in series. Thanks as always; the Wrench List is the Bomb! Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Aug 13 15:44:19 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2024 15:44:19 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge optimizers require amp deration? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think the answers you want might be in this document. See Page 5. https://knowledge-center.solaredge.com/sites/kc/files/se_3p_system_design_and_nec.pdf (this document addresses 3-phase design, but it is still applicable) Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Aug 13, 2024 at 3:18 PM Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi, Wrench List colleagues~ I have a minor dispute with a technician at > one of the solar superstores. He says the amp rating on SolarEdge > optimizers needs a 25% "safety factor". > > SolarEdge's spec sheet says "Maximum Output Current" for model S500 is 15 > amps. I'm not sure if the technician would take 25% off the 15a or if he > boosts the Isc amps (on the PV datasheet) by 25%. In one case, his > allowable short circuit amps (from the datasheet) would be 11.25a and in > the other case it's 12a. > > If he's right, this "500 watt optimizer" could only process 500 watts in > an unusual combination of Vmp and Imp. I know the PV's open circuit voltage > should be calculated higher based on the lowest possible cell temperature, > but I can't find any SolarEdge reference materials that address the > amperage. I checked the SolarEdge videos, installation documents, and I > even spent time in voicemail perdition. Their design tool at > designer.solaredge.com did suggest the S500 optimizer after I entered all > the parameters for my preferred module. > > Nothing else from SolarEdge so far...so it's Wrenchie time. It would be > especially helpful if someone has a white paper or other document to clear > this up. I'm pretty sure the technician wrong on this point, but I'd like > to offer more than just my opinion. BTW, the PV's that I'd like to use are > 450 watt monocrystalline, two strings of 54 cells and 14.55 amps short > circuit current. The relatively low cell count does translate into higher > amps per rated watt compared to a module with more cells in series. > > Thanks as always; the Wrench List is the Bomb! > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Landline: 970-731-4675 > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > ᐧ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From adirondackbattery at gmail.com Tue Aug 13 16:36:59 2024 From: adirondackbattery at gmail.com (Amanda Potter) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2024 16:36:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rubix Batteries? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9708EF48-A31E-4AE3-A2C4-8B81A793037F@gmail.com> Hello Wrenches, I have installed (3) sets of 48v Rubix batteries, all Off-Grid, 30kwh & down. All good so far & great price point & working with the Sol-Ark Inverters, (diff. sizes). And, Zonna has been superior with their service & support. Amanda Potter Energy Storage Specialist NABCEP PV Installation Professional NYSERDA Eligible PV Installer Adirondack Battery & Solar, LLC Potsdam, NY (315) 212-2114 Call/ Text > On Aug 13, 2024, at 1:43 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Greetings Fellow Wrenches: > > I'm considering using the Rubix Lithium PO4 batteries being sold by Zonna Energy. Has anyone tried them? This is a 24v system, so choices are the Rubix or Simpiphi for 50% more cost. I really lost confidence in Simpiphi after a total failure of 4 units, and then an almost 2 month warranty ordeal. Any other 24v choices I should be aware of? > > As always, thanks in advance for your replies. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Tue Aug 13 16:45:19 2024 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (Foxfire Energy) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2024 20:45:19 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rubix Batteries? In-Reply-To: <9708EF48-A31E-4AE3-A2C4-8B81A793037F@gmail.com> References: <9708EF48-A31E-4AE3-A2C4-8B81A793037F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1F526CB3-8DEE-49F3-85F3-8349FB5CA9C7@foxfire-energy.com> We installed a 20kW 48V set in a Grid Tied system in May.. Knowledgeable (and friendly) Tech Support.. So far so good.. Certainly better than the Kilovault Dumpster Fire. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 13, 2024, at 4:38 PM, Amanda Potter via RE-wrenches wrote:  Hello Wrenches, I have installed (3) sets of 48v Rubix batteries, all Off-Grid, 30kwh & down. All good so far & great price point & working with the Sol-Ark Inverters, (diff. sizes). And, Zonna has been superior with their service & support. Amanda Potter Energy Storage Specialist NABCEP PV Installation Professional NYSERDA Eligible PV Installer Adirondack Battery & Solar, LLC Potsdam, NY (315) 212-2114 Call/ Text On Aug 13, 2024, at 1:43 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: Greetings Fellow Wrenches: I'm considering using the Rubix Lithium PO4 batteries being sold by Zonna Energy. Has anyone tried them? This is a 24v system, so choices are the Rubix or Simpiphi for 50% more cost. I really lost confidence in Simpiphi after a total failure of 4 units, and then an almost 2 month warranty ordeal. Any other 24v choices I should be aware of? As always, thanks in advance for your replies. Ray Walters Remote Solar _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Aug 13 17:03:16 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2024 15:03:16 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rubix Batteries? In-Reply-To: <1F526CB3-8DEE-49F3-85F3-8349FB5CA9C7@foxfire-energy.com> References: <1F526CB3-8DEE-49F3-85F3-8349FB5CA9C7@foxfire-energy.com> Message-ID: <4E6395B0-1177-440F-AE32-05B44C538220@gmail.com> I hadn’t heard of these. Very ingenious mounting system. Thx Jay > On Aug 13, 2024, at 2:45 PM, Foxfire Energy via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  We installed a 20kW 48V set in a Grid Tied system in May.. Knowledgeable (and friendly) Tech Support.. So far so good.. Certainly better than the Kilovault Dumpster Fire. > > Sent from my iPhone > >>> On Aug 13, 2024, at 4:38 PM, Amanda Potter via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>  Hello Wrenches, >> I have installed (3) sets of 48v Rubix batteries, all Off-Grid, 30kwh & down. >> All good so far & great price point & working with the Sol-Ark Inverters, (diff. sizes). >> >> And, Zonna has been superior with their service & support. >> >> Amanda Potter >> Energy Storage Specialist >> NABCEP PV Installation Professional >> NYSERDA Eligible PV Installer >> Adirondack Battery & Solar, LLC >> Potsdam, NY >> (315) 212-2114 Call/ Text >> >>> On Aug 13, 2024, at 1:43 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Greetings Fellow Wrenches: >>> >>> I'm considering using the Rubix Lithium PO4 batteries being sold by Zonna Energy. Has anyone tried them? This is a 24v system, so choices are the Rubix or Simpiphi for 50% more cost. I really lost confidence in Simpiphi after a total failure of 4 units, and then an almost 2 month warranty ordeal. Any other 24v choices I should be aware of? >>> >>> As always, thanks in advance for your replies. >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From adirondackbattery at gmail.com Tue Aug 13 17:35:05 2024 From: adirondackbattery at gmail.com (Amanda Potter) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2024 17:35:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rubix Batteries? In-Reply-To: <4E6395B0-1177-440F-AE32-05B44C538220@gmail.com> References: <4E6395B0-1177-440F-AE32-05B44C538220@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56A8DA28-5FCB-4EF1-9D69-4A34C43A7C3B@gmail.com> We have installed the “Non-Stack” & “Stacked”, Blue & Gray. I believe the difference is the UL9540 listings. 99% ease of install. Great busbars. Extra BMS fuses included. Comm wires included. RSD ready. Simple & straight forward so far. Amanda Potter Energy Storage Specialist NABCEP PV Installation Professional NYSERDA Eligible PV Installer Adirondack Battery & Solar, LLC Potsdam, NY (315) 212-2114 Call/ Text > On Aug 13, 2024, at 5:03 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > I hadn’t heard of these. Very ingenious mounting system. > > Thx > Jay > >>> On Aug 13, 2024, at 2:45 PM, Foxfire Energy via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>  We installed a 20kW 48V set in a Grid Tied system in May.. Knowledgeable (and friendly) Tech Support.. So far so good.. Certainly better than the Kilovault Dumpster Fire. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Aug 13, 2024, at 4:38 PM, Amanda Potter via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>>  Hello Wrenches, >>> I have installed (3) sets of 48v Rubix batteries, all Off-Grid, 30kwh & down. >>> All good so far & great price point & working with the Sol-Ark Inverters, (diff. sizes). >>> >>> And, Zonna has been superior with their service & support. >>> >>> Amanda Potter >>> Energy Storage Specialist >>> NABCEP PV Installation Professional >>> NYSERDA Eligible PV Installer >>> Adirondack Battery & Solar, LLC >>> Potsdam, NY >>> (315) 212-2114 Call/ Text >>> >>>> On Aug 13, 2024, at 1:43 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> >>>> Greetings Fellow Wrenches: >>>> >>>> I'm considering using the Rubix Lithium PO4 batteries being sold by Zonna Energy. Has anyone tried them? This is a 24v system, so choices are the Rubix or Simpiphi for 50% more cost. I really lost confidence in Simpiphi after a total failure of 4 units, and then an almost 2 month warranty ordeal. Any other 24v choices I should be aware of? >>>> >>>> As always, thanks in advance for your replies. >>>> >>>> Ray Walters >>>> Remote Solar >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Aug 13 17:39:47 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2024 15:39:47 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rubix Batteries? In-Reply-To: <56A8DA28-5FCB-4EF1-9D69-4A34C43A7C3B@gmail.com> References: <56A8DA28-5FCB-4EF1-9D69-4A34C43A7C3B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3594076D-1790-49E8-ADE5-2D9197496DF4@gmail.com> Which inverters have you used them on? > On Aug 13, 2024, at 3:36 PM, Amanda Potter via RE-wrenches wrote: > > We have installed the “Non-Stack” & “Stacked”, Blue & Gray. > I believe the difference is the UL9540 listings. > > 99% ease of install. > > Great busbars. > Extra BMS fuses included. > Comm wires included. > RSD ready. > > Simple & straight forward so far. > > Amanda Potter > Energy Storage Specialist > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > NYSERDA Eligible PV Installer > Adirondack Battery & Solar, LLC > Potsdam, NY > (315) 212-2114 Call/ Text > >>> On Aug 13, 2024, at 5:03 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>  >> I hadn’t heard of these. Very ingenious mounting system. >> >> Thx >> Jay >> >>>> On Aug 13, 2024, at 2:45 PM, Foxfire Energy via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> >>>  We installed a 20kW 48V set in a Grid Tied system in May.. Knowledgeable (and friendly) Tech Support.. So far so good.. Certainly better than the Kilovault Dumpster Fire. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Aug 13, 2024, at 4:38 PM, Amanda Potter via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> >>>>  Hello Wrenches, >>>> I have installed (3) sets of 48v Rubix batteries, all Off-Grid, 30kwh & down. >>>> All good so far & great price point & working with the Sol-Ark Inverters, (diff. sizes). >>>> >>>> And, Zonna has been superior with their service & support. >>>> >>>> Amanda Potter >>>> Energy Storage Specialist >>>> NABCEP PV Installation Professional >>>> NYSERDA Eligible PV Installer >>>> Adirondack Battery & Solar, LLC >>>> Potsdam, NY >>>> (315) 212-2114 Call/ Text >>>> >>>>> On Aug 13, 2024, at 1:43 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Greetings Fellow Wrenches: >>>>> >>>>> I'm considering using the Rubix Lithium PO4 batteries being sold by Zonna Energy. Has anyone tried them? This is a 24v system, so choices are the Rubix or Simpiphi for 50% more cost. I really lost confidence in Simpiphi after a total failure of 4 units, and then an almost 2 month warranty ordeal. Any other 24v choices I should be aware of? >>>>> >>>>> As always, thanks in advance for your replies. >>>>> >>>>> Ray Walters >>>>> Remote Solar >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Wed Aug 14 08:51:05 2024 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2024 08:51:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnight solar AIO webinar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here is the link to the webinar. https://events.teams.microsoft.com/event/de1a7d33-2106-492a-8c2c-8d3306034410 at 98826d7a-c2a1-4ba2-8c22-90e0e69a026e Christopher On Tue, Aug 13, 2024 at 10:58 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > It’s on NAZ solar home page. > It didn’t want to link > > Jay > > On Aug 13, 2024, at 8:44 AM, Kirpal Khalsa via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > When? Info or link? > Thanks > Kirpal > > On Tue, Aug 13, 2024, 6:21 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> midnite is having a webinar about the AIO and batteries. >> Sign up. >> Jay >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Wed Aug 14 18:13:15 2024 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2024 15:13:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX 2812 charger not working Message-ID: <1723673600359.62a278513f561d17@re-wrenches.org> Wrenches. I am hesitant to post here, since I am not really a Wrench. I feel like maybe I can get by with it since I'm so involved with running the list. So ... After many years, my VFX 2812 stopped charging my batteries, but continues powering my home. The VFX 2812 is mounted to a Midnite e-panel, with two PV inputs (MX-60 and an old Heliotrope CC-60), a FlexNet DC, HUB, and a Mate2. A battery temp sensor is between two of my Surrette 2-KS-33P batteries. Some time ago, the red error light behind the clear cover on the inverter started blinking, but it continued charging from our 7 kW generator -- so I suspect it had nothing to do with my current charging problem. Discussing with Bill Battagin, the light was possibly a fan error, apparently a bit common. I tried switching generators, as the first one showed 64 CPS, but that did not help. When I start the generator, the AC In light on the Mate2 on (and stays on), and I hear an inverter relay clicking as if the generator warm-up delay feature keeps going through its cycle. The house lights flicker at the same time as the click, but charging never happens. I've re-seated all the Cat-5 cables with Outback contact goop on all ends, and I replaced the Mate2 cable with a new Outback one. I've checked and tightened all the connections in the e-Panel and batteries. Question 1: So what can I do to further diagnose or even fix this? Buying a new or even used VFX inverter is out of the question, financially. Question 2: I still have my old Trace U2512 inverter. I'd like to hook its charger into the e-Panel, as a temporary situation -- for times like last week when we were fogged in for a few days, letting my batteries get a lot lower than I want. I would not use the AC output on the Trace, but would continue powering my home with the VFX. I figured I would put the Trace battery cables in parallel with the VFX so that the Trace charging will also go through the shunt so I can see the charge rates and levels on the Mate2. The generator's wires would be changed from the e-Panel AC In to the Trace AC In. The last thing I want to do is further harm my equipment. What say ye to this temporary idea? From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Aug 14 18:18:39 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2024 16:18:39 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX 2812 charger not working In-Reply-To: <1723673600359.62a278513f561d17@re-wrenches.org> References: <1723673600359.62a278513f561d17@re-wrenches.org> Message-ID: HI Michael, I’d say the AC board on the VFX is suspect. Bad relay. Yes to #2. That will work just fine. Good luck jay > On Aug 14, 2024, at 4:13 PM, Michael Welch via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Wrenches. I am hesitant to post here, since I am not really a Wrench. I feel like maybe I can get by with it since I'm so involved with running the list. So ... > > After many years, my VFX 2812 stopped charging my batteries, but continues powering my home. > > The VFX 2812 is mounted to a Midnite e-panel, with two PV inputs (MX-60 and an old Heliotrope CC-60), a FlexNet DC, HUB, and a Mate2. A battery temp sensor is between two of my Surrette 2-KS-33P batteries. > > Some time ago, the red error light behind the clear cover on the inverter started blinking, but it continued charging from our 7 kW generator -- so I suspect it had nothing to do with my current charging problem. Discussing with Bill Battagin, the light was possibly a fan error, apparently a bit common. > > I tried switching generators, as the first one showed 64 CPS, but that did not help. > When I start the generator, the AC In light on the Mate2 on (and stays on), and I hear an inverter relay clicking as if the generator warm-up delay feature keeps going through its cycle. The house lights flicker at the same time as the click, but charging never happens. > > I've re-seated all the Cat-5 cables with Outback contact goop on all ends, and I replaced the Mate2 cable with a new Outback one. I've checked and tightened all the connections in the e-Panel and batteries. > > Question 1: > So what can I do to further diagnose or even fix this? Buying a new or even used VFX inverter is out of the question, financially. > > Question 2: > I still have my old Trace U2512 inverter. I'd like to hook its charger into the e-Panel, as a temporary situation -- for times like last week when we were fogged in for a few days, letting my batteries get a lot lower than I want. > > I would not use the AC output on the Trace, but would continue powering my home with the VFX. I figured I would put the Trace battery cables in parallel with the VFX so that the Trace charging will also go through the shunt so I can see the charge rates and levels on the Mate2. > > The generator's wires would be changed from the e-Panel AC In to the Trace AC In. > > The last thing I want to do is further harm my equipment. What say ye to this temporary idea? > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From rich at solartechvt.com Wed Aug 14 18:22:05 2024 From: rich at solartechvt.com (Richard Nicol) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2024 18:22:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX 2812 charger not working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <231C74EB-3B8C-4F5C-8666-E1A373D09BFC@solartechvt.com> New AC board [if available) is around $250 +/- and relatively straightforward to replace. FET board is twice as much $ Sent from my iPad > On Aug 14, 2024, at 6:19 PM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > HI Michael, > > I’d say the AC board on the VFX is suspect. Bad relay. > > > Yes to #2. That will work just fine. > Good luck > > jay > >> On Aug 14, 2024, at 4:13 PM, Michael Welch via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Wrenches. I am hesitant to post here, since I am not really a Wrench. I feel like maybe I can get by with it since I'm so involved with running the list. So ... >> >> After many years, my VFX 2812 stopped charging my batteries, but continues powering my home. >> >> The VFX 2812 is mounted to a Midnite e-panel, with two PV inputs (MX-60 and an old Heliotrope CC-60), a FlexNet DC, HUB, and a Mate2. A battery temp sensor is between two of my Surrette 2-KS-33P batteries. >> >> Some time ago, the red error light behind the clear cover on the inverter started blinking, but it continued charging from our 7 kW generator -- so I suspect it had nothing to do with my current charging problem. Discussing with Bill Battagin, the light was possibly a fan error, apparently a bit common. >> >> I tried switching generators, as the first one showed 64 CPS, but that did not help. >> When I start the generator, the AC In light on the Mate2 on (and stays on), and I hear an inverter relay clicking as if the generator warm-up delay feature keeps going through its cycle. The house lights flicker at the same time as the click, but charging never happens. >> >> I've re-seated all the Cat-5 cables with Outback contact goop on all ends, and I replaced the Mate2 cable with a new Outback one. I've checked and tightened all the connections in the e-Panel and batteries. >> >> Question 1: >> So what can I do to further diagnose or even fix this? Buying a new or even used VFX inverter is out of the question, financially. >> >> Question 2: >> I still have my old Trace U2512 inverter. I'd like to hook its charger into the e-Panel, as a temporary situation -- for times like last week when we were fogged in for a few days, letting my batteries get a lot lower than I want. >> >> I would not use the AC output on the Trace, but would continue powering my home with the VFX. I figured I would put the Trace battery cables in parallel with the VFX so that the Trace charging will also go through the shunt so I can see the charge rates and levels on the Mate2. >> >> The generator's wires would be changed from the e-Panel AC In to the Trace AC In. >> >> The last thing I want to do is further harm my equipment. What say ye to this temporary idea? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From steve at surrette.com Wed Aug 14 18:26:39 2024 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2024 15:26:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX 2812 charger not working In-Reply-To: <1723673600359.62a278513f561d17@re-wrenches.org> References: <1723673600359.62a278513f561d17@re-wrenches.org> Message-ID: Michael, Your AC Relay contacts on the utility side are dead... the AC Relay boards on the VFX need to be changed out, or you need to pull it and replace the relay. Those relays have 12 to 14 solder points, so unless you have the "Jig" for desoldering them, it's a nightmare to replace without it. You can use the U series to charge like that, but it may not be able to get the voltage to 2.45vpc to 2.5vpc (14.7 to 15volts), and you may not have enough current to charge those batteries by itself in a reasonable amount of time, so do expect long generator runtimes. You may be able to find one out there. They are pretty easy to replace, but you have to take extra care not to pinch the two ribbon cables that attach to them. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Wed, Aug 14, 2024 at 3:14 PM Michael Welch via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches. I am hesitant to post here, since I am not really a Wrench. I > feel like maybe I can get by with it since I'm so involved with running the > list. So ... > > After many years, my VFX 2812 stopped charging my batteries, but continues > powering my home. > > The VFX 2812 is mounted to a Midnite e-panel, with two PV inputs (MX-60 > and an old Heliotrope CC-60), a FlexNet DC, HUB, and a Mate2. A battery > temp sensor is between two of my Surrette 2-KS-33P batteries. > > Some time ago, the red error light behind the clear cover on the inverter > started blinking, but it continued charging from our 7 kW generator -- so I > suspect it had nothing to do with my current charging problem. Discussing > with Bill Battagin, the light was possibly a fan error, apparently a bit > common. > > I tried switching generators, as the first one showed 64 CPS, but that did > not help. > When I start the generator, the AC In light on the Mate2 on (and stays > on), and I hear an inverter relay clicking as if the generator warm-up > delay feature keeps going through its cycle. The house lights flicker at > the same time as the click, but charging never happens. > > I've re-seated all the Cat-5 cables with Outback contact goop on all ends, > and I replaced the Mate2 cable with a new Outback one. I've checked and > tightened all the connections in the e-Panel and batteries. > > Question 1: > So what can I do to further diagnose or even fix this? Buying a new or > even used VFX inverter is out of the question, financially. > > Question 2: > I still have my old Trace U2512 inverter. I'd like to hook its charger > into the e-Panel, as a temporary situation -- for times like last week > when we were fogged in for a few days, letting my batteries get a lot lower > than I want. > > I would not use the AC output on the Trace, but would continue powering my > home with the VFX. I figured I would put the Trace battery cables in > parallel with the VFX so that the Trace charging will also go through the > shunt so I can see the charge rates and levels on the Mate2. > > The generator's wires would be changed from the e-Panel AC In to the > Trace AC In. > > The last thing I want to do is further harm my equipment. What say ye to > this temporary idea? > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Aug 14 18:33:39 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2024 15:33:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX 2812 charger not working In-Reply-To: <1723673600359.62a278513f561d17@re-wrenches.org> References: <1723673600359.62a278513f561d17@re-wrenches.org> Message-ID: Michael: Sounds like a generator problem, not an inverter problem. Are you able to measure the voltage and frequency from the generator while it is connecting to the inverter? The clicking could indicate the inverter qualifies the AC as good and the transfer relay clicks, but upon connecting the AC quickly goes out of spec and the relay opens back up. If the generator is failing , a different battery charger does not fix the problem. I think the Mate2 should tell you an error cause. Have you checked that? Do you get a flashing AC IN light? Does it go solid, even briefly? A blinking error light is a generator problem, if I recall correctly. I doubt you have an inverter problem but if it turns out to be so I probably have a working, used 24 VDC VFX I could donate, if you can convert. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Wed, Aug 14, 2024 at 3:14 PM Michael Welch via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches. I am hesitant to post here, since I am not really a Wrench. I > feel like maybe I can get by with it since I'm so involved with running the > list. So ... > > After many years, my VFX 2812 stopped charging my batteries, but continues > powering my home. > > The VFX 2812 is mounted to a Midnite e-panel, with two PV inputs (MX-60 > and an old Heliotrope CC-60), a FlexNet DC, HUB, and a Mate2. A battery > temp sensor is between two of my Surrette 2-KS-33P batteries. > > Some time ago, the red error light behind the clear cover on the inverter > started blinking, but it continued charging from our 7 kW generator -- so I > suspect it had nothing to do with my current charging problem. Discussing > with Bill Battagin, the light was possibly a fan error, apparently a bit > common. > > I tried switching generators, as the first one showed 64 CPS, but that did > not help. > When I start the generator, the AC In light on the Mate2 on (and stays > on), and I hear an inverter relay clicking as if the generator warm-up > delay feature keeps going through its cycle. The house lights flicker at > the same time as the click, but charging never happens. > > I've re-seated all the Cat-5 cables with Outback contact goop on all ends, > and I replaced the Mate2 cable with a new Outback one. I've checked and > tightened all the connections in the e-Panel and batteries. > > Question 1: > So what can I do to further diagnose or even fix this? Buying a new or > even used VFX inverter is out of the question, financially. > > Question 2: > I still have my old Trace U2512 inverter. I'd like to hook its charger > into the e-Panel, as a temporary situation -- for times like last week > when we were fogged in for a few days, letting my batteries get a lot lower > than I want. > > I would not use the AC output on the Trace, but would continue powering my > home with the VFX. I figured I would put the Trace battery cables in > parallel with the VFX so that the Trace charging will also go through the > shunt so I can see the charge rates and levels on the Mate2. > > The generator's wires would be changed from the e-Panel AC In to the > Trace AC In. > > The last thing I want to do is further harm my equipment. What say ye to > this temporary idea? > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Wed Aug 14 19:01:02 2024 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (Foxfire Energy) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2024 23:01:02 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX 2812 charger not working In-Reply-To: References: <1723673600359.62a278513f561d17@re-wrenches.org> Message-ID: <66AABC18-62CF-407F-9599-4F80DCD0D8FD@foxfire-energy.com> A few years back (like 15-20), a customer asked me to stock a complete board set for the 12V FX in his RV.. Hadn’t heard from him in years so I called his wife.. turned out he died and the estate sold the RV.. So I’m still sitting on a 15 something year old complete board set for a 12V FX (Still in the original, unopened packing).. can’t remember if it was for vented or sealed.. Might be for the mobile unit, so it might switch Neutrals when it locks on to shore power.. Guess I could dig it out and see.. Send me your address.. I’ll send it for free.. The barn could use the space. db Sent from my iPhone On Aug 14, 2024, at 6:27 PM, Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches wrote:  Michael, Your AC Relay contacts on the utility side are dead... the AC Relay boards on the VFX need to be changed out, or you need to pull it and replace the relay. Those relays have 12 to 14 solder points, so unless you have the "Jig" for desoldering them, it's a nightmare to replace without it. You can use the U series to charge like that, but it may not be able to get the voltage to 2.45vpc to 2.5vpc (14.7 to 15volts), and you may not have enough current to charge those batteries by itself in a reasonable amount of time, so do expect long generator runtimes. You may be able to find one out there. They are pretty easy to replace, but you have to take extra care not to pinch the two ribbon cables that attach to them. [https://i.imgur.com/YIluKhq.png] Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com [http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/facebook_square_gray-24.png][http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/youtube_square_gray-24.png][http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/linkedin_square_gray-24.png][https://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/instagram_square-24.png] ________________________________ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ________________________________ On Wed, Aug 14, 2024 at 3:14 PM Michael Welch via RE-wrenches > wrote: Wrenches. I am hesitant to post here, since I am not really a Wrench. I feel like maybe I can get by with it since I'm so involved with running the list. So ... After many years, my VFX 2812 stopped charging my batteries, but continues powering my home. The VFX 2812 is mounted to a Midnite e-panel, with two PV inputs (MX-60 and an old Heliotrope CC-60), a FlexNet DC, HUB, and a Mate2. A battery temp sensor is between two of my Surrette 2-KS-33P batteries. Some time ago, the red error light behind the clear cover on the inverter started blinking, but it continued charging from our 7 kW generator -- so I suspect it had nothing to do with my current charging problem. Discussing with Bill Battagin, the light was possibly a fan error, apparently a bit common. I tried switching generators, as the first one showed 64 CPS, but that did not help. When I start the generator, the AC In light on the Mate2 on (and stays on), and I hear an inverter relay clicking as if the generator warm-up delay feature keeps going through its cycle. The house lights flicker at the same time as the click, but charging never happens. I've re-seated all the Cat-5 cables with Outback contact goop on all ends, and I replaced the Mate2 cable with a new Outback one. I've checked and tightened all the connections in the e-Panel and batteries. Question 1: So what can I do to further diagnose or even fix this? Buying a new or even used VFX inverter is out of the question, financially. Question 2: I still have my old Trace U2512 inverter. I'd like to hook its charger into the e-Panel, as a temporary situation -- for times like last week when we were fogged in for a few days, letting my batteries get a lot lower than I want. I would not use the AC output on the Trace, but would continue powering my home with the VFX. I figured I would put the Trace battery cables in parallel with the VFX so that the Trace charging will also go through the shunt so I can see the charge rates and levels on the Mate2. The generator's wires would be changed from the e-Panel AC In to the Trace AC In. The last thing I want to do is further harm my equipment. What say ye to this temporary idea? _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed Aug 14 19:10:37 2024 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2024 23:10:37 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacing my rails on Watson tracker Message-ID: Time for an upgrade. I am looking for a rail typical of the "old" Iron ridge Q rail or what used to come on Watson trackers. Watson does not have any extra currently & distance over size leads to ridiculous freight over-charges. The new Iron Ridge rails do not work due to the curved sides. I want to replace my Solar World 240watt with REC 360watt modules. The rail needs to allow for a carriage bolt type slot of grab the head with the threads sticking up. I am looking for (12) rails at 168". Suggestions welcome & thanks, If you have some that might work, please contact me directly. _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Thu Aug 15 07:44:09 2024 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (Foxfire Energy) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 11:44:09 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX 2812 charger not working In-Reply-To: <66AABC18-62CF-407F-9599-4F80DCD0D8FD@foxfire-energy.com> References: <1723673600359.62a278513f561d17@re-wrenches.org> <66AABC18-62CF-407F-9599-4F80DCD0D8FD@foxfire-energy.com> Message-ID: Hey Michael, I just pulled the board set from storage and yes, it does turn out to be a board set for a 2012 vintage VFX 2812 M(mobile).. which means (as I recall), the AC relays are only rated for 30 A because they use one set of the contacts to switch the neutrals on the AC board.. but I think it would in your application (might be someone else on the list more knowledgeable than I).. I’ll get them in the mail later today.. Thank you for doing what you do. db [image0.jpeg][image1.jpeg][image2.jpeg] Sent from my iPhone On Aug 14, 2024, at 7:02 PM, Foxfire Energy wrote:  A few years back (like 15-20), a customer asked me to stock a complete board set for the 12V FX in his RV.. Hadn’t heard from him in years so I called his wife.. turned out he died and the estate sold the RV.. So I’m still sitting on a 15 something year old complete board set for a 12V FX (Still in the original, unopened packing).. can’t remember if it was for vented or sealed.. Might be for the mobile unit, so it might switch Neutrals when it locks on to shore power.. Guess I could dig it out and see.. Send me your address.. I’ll send it for free.. The barn could use the space. db Sent from my iPhone On Aug 14, 2024, at 6:27 PM, Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches wrote:  Michael, Your AC Relay contacts on the utility side are dead... the AC Relay boards on the VFX need to be changed out, or you need to pull it and replace the relay. Those relays have 12 to 14 solder points, so unless you have the "Jig" for desoldering them, it's a nightmare to replace without it. You can use the U series to charge like that, but it may not be able to get the voltage to 2.45vpc to 2.5vpc (14.7 to 15volts), and you may not have enough current to charge those batteries by itself in a reasonable amount of time, so do expect long generator runtimes. You may be able to find one out there. They are pretty easy to replace, but you have to take extra care not to pinch the two ribbon cables that attach to them. [https://i.imgur.com/YIluKhq.png] Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com [http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/facebook_square_gray-24.png][http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/youtube_square_gray-24.png][http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/linkedin_square_gray-24.png][https://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/instagram_square-24.png] ________________________________ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ________________________________ On Wed, Aug 14, 2024 at 3:14 PM Michael Welch via RE-wrenches > wrote: Wrenches. I am hesitant to post here, since I am not really a Wrench. I feel like maybe I can get by with it since I'm so involved with running the list. So ... After many years, my VFX 2812 stopped charging my batteries, but continues powering my home. The VFX 2812 is mounted to a Midnite e-panel, with two PV inputs (MX-60 and an old Heliotrope CC-60), a FlexNet DC, HUB, and a Mate2. A battery temp sensor is between two of my Surrette 2-KS-33P batteries. Some time ago, the red error light behind the clear cover on the inverter started blinking, but it continued charging from our 7 kW generator -- so I suspect it had nothing to do with my current charging problem. Discussing with Bill Battagin, the light was possibly a fan error, apparently a bit common. I tried switching generators, as the first one showed 64 CPS, but that did not help. When I start the generator, the AC In light on the Mate2 on (and stays on), and I hear an inverter relay clicking as if the generator warm-up delay feature keeps going through its cycle. The house lights flicker at the same time as the click, but charging never happens. I've re-seated all the Cat-5 cables with Outback contact goop on all ends, and I replaced the Mate2 cable with a new Outback one. I've checked and tightened all the connections in the e-Panel and batteries. Question 1: So what can I do to further diagnose or even fix this? Buying a new or even used VFX inverter is out of the question, financially. Question 2: I still have my old Trace U2512 inverter. I'd like to hook its charger into the e-Panel, as a temporary situation -- for times like last week when we were fogged in for a few days, letting my batteries get a lot lower than I want. I would not use the AC output on the Trace, but would continue powering my home with the VFX. I figured I would put the Trace battery cables in parallel with the VFX so that the Trace charging will also go through the shunt so I can see the charge rates and levels on the Mate2. The generator's wires would be changed from the e-Panel AC In to the Trace AC In. The last thing I want to do is further harm my equipment. What say ye to this temporary idea? _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image0.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 82109 bytes Desc: image0.jpeg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 86172 bytes Desc: image1.jpeg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image2.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 84996 bytes Desc: image2.jpeg URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Aug 15 10:19:04 2024 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 08:19:04 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC compressors Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, Does anyone have a good 24V DC compressor/air pump? We used to use a nice little Gast 24V compressor for pond aeration systems but they have stopped making them. Any help would be appreciated Thanks! -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Aug 15 11:49:39 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 09:49:39 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] discover lithium warranty issues. Message-ID: <5917F34D-5CF6-47BF-A652-D69E6C83E210@gmail.com> Hi All, I have an installer buddy where i used to live who’s having to try and get a discover lithium warrantied. Its 3 yrs old, 2 years installed. The dealer is closed, and the customer doesn’t have the POP. Discover is being very difficult. The battery appears to have a dead cell block which makes trying to get info out of the battery all but impossible as it won’t stay on long enough to download the info. Does anyone have a contact who could help my installer/friend with this issue? thanks Jay From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu Aug 15 11:55:00 2024 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 11:55:00 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] small battery on 208V three phase Message-ID: Hi All, I am working on sorting out equipment for a roughly 70kw 208V three phase system, where they also want a very small battery backup for some 120V loads. It seems like it may be a bit overkill to have all 70kw worth of solar going through battery based inverters, when I need only a small amount of backup power. But I would also like to keep the whole system with the same manufacturer inverter for monitoring simplicity. I am considering two Sol-Ark 30K inverters, but their L3 battery system will do a minimum of 40kWh. I need to keep it under 20kWh because of permitting issues. I am leaning towards Enphase, because their commercial MI's are high powered and surprisingly low cost. Especially since this is a roof mount on a pitched roof, and that will take care of rapid shutdown. But in order to use their batteries, we need a 240V split phase system. I am thinking of using a couple strings of IQ8's to integrate with their batteries, and then use a 208V to 240V transformer to hook into the rest of the electrical system in the building. Something like this: https://store.maddoxtransformer.com/products/d7271c82-ce60-5b76-8198-4a9150263607 My only concern here is wondering whether there will be phase issues, if I am taking two legs from the 208V primary at 120 degrees from each other and turning that into 240V for the IQ system controller. I would love to hear if someone has done something like this successfully. I don't want to find out during installation if it wont work. Or, if anyone has other equipment suggestions, I am open to that too. Thanks! -Dave -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Aug 15 13:16:25 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 10:16:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] discover lithium warranty issues. In-Reply-To: <5917F34D-5CF6-47BF-A652-D69E6C83E210@gmail.com> References: <5917F34D-5CF6-47BF-A652-D69E6C83E210@gmail.com> Message-ID: What is a POP Jay? I assume the customer did not fill out the warranty info when new? Big mistake on something with a 10 year warranty. With all of the used junk on ebay/Amazon why would you not be difficult? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-08-15 8:49 am, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi All, > > I have an installer buddy where i used to live who's having to try and > get a discover lithium warrantied. > > Its 3 yrs old, 2 years installed. > > The dealer is closed, and the customer doesn't have the POP. > > Discover is being very difficult. > > The battery appears to have a dead cell block which makes trying to get > info out of the battery all but impossible as it won't stay on long > enough to download the info. > > Does anyone have a contact who could help my installer/friend with > this issue? > > thanks > > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Aug 15 13:43:42 2024 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 17:43:42 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] discover lithium warranty issues. In-Reply-To: References: <5917F34D-5CF6-47BF-A652-D69E6C83E210@gmail.com> Message-ID: Pop - point of purchase _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] discover lithium warranty issues. Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 17:16:25 +0000 Size: 16353 URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Thu Aug 15 13:57:25 2024 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 11:57:25 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] discover lithium warranty issues. In-Reply-To: <5917F34D-5CF6-47BF-A652-D69E6C83E210@gmail.com> References: <5917F34D-5CF6-47BF-A652-D69E6C83E210@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7B7F1E7E-237C-4892-8EBB-E6A6C8395858@gmail.com> I also have had a poor experience with Discover’s warranty. I installed 3x 7.4kWh AES batteries for an off-grid customer in 2020. I registered the warranty for all three within a few weeks of installation. Fast forward to 2023, the original customer sold the property and the new owner asked me out to troubleshoot a storage issue. One battery had failed to due a faulty BMS. Discover refused to honor the warranty because the property had changed hands (they tie the warranty to the original registered owner), and the new owner was stuck buying a new battery. Discover did offer the replacement at a slightly discounted price but I thought it was lousy to find out that a 10-year warranty product suddenly has no warranty if the property is ever sold. It really turned me off, and I was left with the feeling that I might have had better luck getting a warranty replacement if I had never registered the batteries at all. Luke Christy Renewable energy consultant NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO 81144 sgsrenewables at gmail > On Aug 15, 2024, at 9:49 AM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi All, > > I have an installer buddy where i used to live who’s having to try and get a discover lithium warrantied. > > Its 3 yrs old, 2 years installed. > > The dealer is closed, and the customer doesn’t have the POP. > > Discover is being very difficult. > > The battery appears to have a dead cell block which makes trying to get info out of the battery all but impossible as it won’t stay on long enough to download the info. > > Does anyone have a contact who could help my installer/friend with this issue? > > thanks > > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Aug 15 14:08:25 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 11:08:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] discover lithium warranty issues. In-Reply-To: <7B7F1E7E-237C-4892-8EBB-E6A6C8395858@gmail.com> References: <5917F34D-5CF6-47BF-A652-D69E6C83E210@gmail.com> <7B7F1E7E-237C-4892-8EBB-E6A6C8395858@gmail.com> Message-ID: Being from Manufacturing I just disagree that warranty should pass on to a different owner. (Unless in writing) Too much chance for failure with a new owner. We do want these folks to stay in business right? Batteries are hard enough in residential when doing everything correct. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-08-15 10:57 am, Luke Christy via RE-wrenches wrote: > I also have had a poor experience with Discover's warranty. > I installed 3x 7.4kWh AES batteries for an off-grid customer in 2020. I > registered the warranty for all three within a few weeks of > installation. Fast forward to 2023, the original customer sold the > property and the new owner asked me out to troubleshoot a storage > issue. One battery had failed to due a faulty BMS. Discover refused to > honor the warranty because the property had changed hands (they tie the > warranty to the original registered owner), and the new owner was stuck > buying a new battery. > > Discover did offer the replacement at a slightly discounted price but I > thought it was lousy to find out that a 10-year warranty product > suddenly has no warranty if the property is ever sold. It really turned > me off, and I was left with the feeling that I might have had better > luck getting a warranty replacement if I had never registered the > batteries at all. > > Luke Christy > Renewable energy consultant > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional(tm): > > Solar Gain Services, LLC > PO Box 531 > Monte Vista, CO 81144 > sgsrenewables at gmail > >> On Aug 15, 2024, at 9:49 AM, jay via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> >> I have an installer buddy where i used to live who's having to try >> and get a discover lithium warrantied. >> >> Its 3 yrs old, 2 years installed. >> >> The dealer is closed, and the customer doesn't have the POP. >> >> Discover is being very difficult. >> >> The battery appears to have a dead cell block which makes trying to >> get info out of the battery all but impossible as it won't stay on >> long enough to download the info. >> >> Does anyone have a contact who could help my installer/friend with >> this issue? >> >> thanks >> >> Jay >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Aug 15 16:05:09 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 16:05:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback in general In-Reply-To: References: <3CF5DB19-FCEB-45BE-9DB9-3F621CD03825@gmail.com> Message-ID: It has been a few weeks since this was last discussed, and I'm looking for an update from anyone who knows if Outback is likely to exist as we know it going forward. There are virtually none of their products installed locally, but I have a new off-grid client with a quad VFX stack system with multiple errors that appear to be fatal. I have not been there personally, however. I was told they were installed last year, which makes me suspicious about these errors. I'm wondering if I even want to get involved. It seems like a quagmire waiting to happen, but it's also located on an island where I am doing a lot of other work and would like to be the "go to guy" out there. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sat, Jul 20, 2024 at 7:26 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > James Showalter from Signature Solar and Eric Lundgren from Big Battery > purchased Outback Solar. I have had terrible tech support experiences from > both of those outfits, they tend to conveniently "forget" your engineering > and NEC code compliance support requests when the answer is just simply > "no, not yet UL listed" or "we don't know if that feature works or not." > I'm not sure how these prolific suppliers of cheap crap products with > terrible QC and NIB failure rates intend to compete, but my guess is that > they have control of the big crap overseas product pipeline nozzle and > intend to steer the huge stream of sewage in our direction. Sol-Ark just > imports Deye products and retrofits them with their own upgrades and > firmware. Magnum has vanished, much to my dismay as my own system is Magnum > as are dozens of my customers. > > Us off-grid folks still have a couple guys named boB and Robin at Midnite > that still manufacture, sell and support good products. Maybe Morningstar > will up their game into larger inverters. Why are all these shady import > companies based in Texas? Inquiring minds want to know! BTW, I hate > all-in-ones, never had a single good experience, just endless firmware and > comms updates and such simple issues resulting in multiple truck rolls. > > I miss Lones Tuss of Outback calling me back on a Friday evening at 7PM > and remotely diagnosing my client's VFX / Mate 3S issues whilst doing his > laundry at home, after I submitted a ticket earlier that day. The client > seriously thought I was pulling a practical joke on him until I put Lones > on speaker. > > Strange new world for us off-grid folks. I'll have to stick with the very > few companies left that I trust. Yes, yes, Schneider, but their tech > support is almost impenetrable. > > Our strange new off-grid world seems to be destined as crap from Alibaba > and Amazon, and it all smells rather off to me, like the "fresh fish" at a > run-down Safeway in eastern Kansas.... > > Dan Fink > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > NABCEP PV Associate > d anbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > > > On Sat, Jul 20, 2024 at 3:22 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I just checked the OB forums page and there is nothing current. >> >> One thing I found says that the new president of OB is the CEO of Big >> Battery. I don’t know that to be a fact. >> Which is also somehow related to signature solar/ EG4. >> >> My guess is that if/when OB resurfaces it won’t have the same products. >> It’ll just be an old name selling new products and they won’t be dealing >> with old legacy products, warranty or MX or tech support. >> >> I could be way wrong. >> >> But anyone trying to keep a product line going wouldn’t just stop all >> communication for a few months. >> >> Maybe someone who has been an OB distributor might know more about what’s >> up? I no longer have any of those contacts. >> >> New world, fellow wrenches. >> >> Jay >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Aug 15 17:09:49 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 17:09:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SunPower Warranty and Monitoring Message-ID: As another one bites the dust, does anyone have insight into who, if anyone, will take over the warranty for Sunpower branded Enphase microinverters and if the SunPower monitoring will continue to work? Or maybe they can be software updated to work on the Enlighten portal? And also, would a system be able to be upgraded using Enphase branded microinverters if the software was made to be compatible? I'm sure there are more questions than answers at this point, but I wanted to get the discussion going. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solareagle at solareagle.com Thu Aug 15 21:01:02 2024 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (Ron Young) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 18:01:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback question Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, I have a client who has a 6 year old Outback 3524 inverter. It has performed well for him until two months ago when he started seeing huge fluctuations in the charging behaviour indicated on the Mate and flaky behaviour in the household loads. He said he’s also “burned out” a couple of generators. The AC loads remaining constant while the charging loads would fluctuate, doubling sometimes. Because he’s pretty remote I’ve had him troubleshooting and he has replaced the battery pack, switched generators, checked all the wiring. He found a loose wire incoming from the generator but when repaired it made no difference. I believe the problem may be the charging board in the Outback is failing. Appreciate any comments or suggestions. Also what is the current status of boards from Outback? From reading the Wrenches list I see that Outback has changed hands recently. Thank you! Ron Young earthRight Solar - Solareagle.com From dan at foxfire-energy.com Thu Aug 15 21:12:51 2024 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (Foxfire Energy) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 01:12:51 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <29B49326-AE28-44DC-B4D1-6BEB9404C6BE@foxfire-energy.com> IMHO, the “New“ Outback Tech Support su… could use improvement.. Maybe check in with Zonna Energy.. they have board sets and can repair AC boards. db Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 15, 2024, at 9:03 PM, Ron Young via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, I have a client who has a 6 year old Outback 3524 inverter. It has performed well for him until two months ago when he started seeing huge fluctuations in the charging behaviour indicated on the Mate and flaky behaviour in the household loads. He said he’s also “burned out” a couple of generators. The AC loads remaining constant while the charging loads would fluctuate, doubling sometimes. > > Because he’s pretty remote I’ve had him troubleshooting and he has replaced the battery pack, switched generators, checked all the wiring. He found a loose wire incoming from the generator but when repaired it made no difference. I believe the problem may be the charging board in the Outback is failing. Appreciate any comments or suggestions. Also what is the current status of boards from Outback? From reading the Wrenches list I see that Outback has changed hands recently. > > Thank you! > > Ron Young > earthRight Solar - Solareagle.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Aug 15 21:36:42 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 19:36:42 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <869760C7-A5C9-448B-9A1C-1D84E174CE72@gmail.com> My question would be what is the combined generator load? Did anything change? Anything new, solar parts or ac loads or new person around? The max charging is around 20 amps or 2400 watts, + loads can get pretty large. Most generators don’t have that kind of 120v capacity. I ask because he’s burned out 2 generators which says to me his programming might be incorrect. I’ve seen odd behavior if the generator is running too hard, if so I have people turn down the ac input amps. It doesn’t matter where the charge amps is, loads are priority. And I’ve not seen this exact set of issues. Could be settings or an actual board. Probably not the fet board but could be either the ac or control board. Jay > On Aug 15, 2024, at 7:02 PM, Ron Young via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, I have a client who has a 6 year old Outback 3524 inverter. It has performed well for him until two months ago when he started seeing huge fluctuations in the charging behaviour indicated on the Mate and flaky behaviour in the household loads. He said he’s also “burned out” a couple of generators. The AC loads remaining constant while the charging loads would fluctuate, doubling sometimes. > > Because he’s pretty remote I’ve had him troubleshooting and he has replaced the battery pack, switched generators, checked all the wiring. He found a loose wire incoming from the generator but when repaired it made no difference. I believe the problem may be the charging board in the Outback is failing. Appreciate any comments or suggestions. Also what is the current status of boards from Outback? From reading the Wrenches list I see that Outback has changed hands recently. > > Thank you! > > Ron Young > earthRight Solar - Solareagle.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From ray at solarray.com Fri Aug 16 01:08:09 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 23:08:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback question In-Reply-To: <869760C7-A5C9-448B-9A1C-1D84E174CE72@gmail.com> References: <869760C7-A5C9-448B-9A1C-1D84E174CE72@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2eef8ab2-75c0-4e82-a304-69810292eb94@solarray.com> If he's not running the generator through a transformer, then he's probably just running 120 vac off one leg of the generator, with no load on the other leg.  This imbalance will definitely cause generator failures long term, and not reliably charge the batteries. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 8/15/2024 7:36 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > My question would be what is the combined generator load? Did anything change? Anything new, solar parts or ac loads or new person around? > > The max charging is around 20 amps or 2400 watts, + loads can get pretty large. > Most generators don’t have that kind of 120v capacity. I ask because he’s burned out 2 generators which says to me his programming might be incorrect. > I’ve seen odd behavior if the generator is running too hard, if so I have people turn down the ac input amps. It doesn’t matter where the charge amps is, loads are priority. > And > > I’ve not seen this exact set of issues. Could be settings or an actual board. > Probably not the fet board but could be either the ac or control board. > Jay > > > > > >> On Aug 15, 2024, at 7:02 PM, Ron Young via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Hi Wrenches, I have a client who has a 6 year old Outback 3524 inverter. It has performed well for him until two months ago when he started seeing huge fluctuations in the charging behaviour indicated on the Mate and flaky behaviour in the household loads. He said he’s also “burned out” a couple of generators. The AC loads remaining constant while the charging loads would fluctuate, doubling sometimes. >> >> Because he’s pretty remote I’ve had him troubleshooting and he has replaced the battery pack, switched generators, checked all the wiring. He found a loose wire incoming from the generator but when repaired it made no difference. I believe the problem may be the charging board in the Outback is failing. Appreciate any comments or suggestions. Also what is the current status of boards from Outback? From reading the Wrenches list I see that Outback has changed hands recently. >> >> Thank you! >> >> Ron Young >> earthRight Solar - Solareagle.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From solareagle at solareagle.com Fri Aug 16 02:35:43 2024 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (solareagle at solareagle.com) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 23:35:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback question In-Reply-To: <2eef8ab2-75c0-4e82-a304-69810292eb94@solarray.com> References: <869760C7-A5C9-448B-9A1C-1D84E174CE72@gmail.com> <2eef8ab2-75c0-4e82-a304-69810292eb94@solarray.com> Message-ID: <42326716-0DB4-443A-AD40-27C09A25A76C@solareagle.com> Message from the client tonight indicates the inverter charger has now completely failed. Still inverting. Which board controls charging? Ray, good point about running the generator through a transformer. I suggested that several years ago but the extra cost was a no go. Ron > On Aug 15, 2024, at 10:08 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > > If he's not running the generator through a transformer, then he's probably just running 120 vac off one leg of the generator, with no load on the other leg. This imbalance will definitely cause generator failures long term, and not reliably charge the batteries. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > On 8/15/2024 7:36 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: >> My question would be what is the combined generator load? Did anything change? Anything new, solar parts or ac loads or new person around? >> >> The max charging is around 20 amps or 2400 watts, + loads can get pretty large. >> Most generators don’t have that kind of 120v capacity. I ask because he’s burned out 2 generators which says to me his programming might be incorrect. >> I’ve seen odd behavior if the generator is running too hard, if so I have people turn down the ac input amps. It doesn’t matter where the charge amps is, loads are priority. >> And >> >> I’ve not seen this exact set of issues. Could be settings or an actual board. >> Probably not the fet board but could be either the ac or control board. >> Jay >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Aug 15, 2024, at 7:02 PM, Ron Young via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Hi Wrenches, I have a client who has a 6 year old Outback 3524 inverter. It has performed well for him until two months ago when he started seeing huge fluctuations in the charging behaviour indicated on the Mate and flaky behaviour in the household loads. He said he’s also “burned out” a couple of generators. The AC loads remaining constant while the charging loads would fluctuate, doubling sometimes. >>> >>> Because he’s pretty remote I’ve had him troubleshooting and he has replaced the battery pack, switched generators, checked all the wiring. He found a loose wire incoming from the generator but when repaired it made no difference. I believe the problem may be the charging board in the Outback is failing. Appreciate any comments or suggestions. Also what is the current status of boards from Outback? From reading the Wrenches list I see that Outback has changed hands recently. >>> >>> Thank you! >>> >>> Ron Young >>> earthRight Solar - Solareagle.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Aug 16 07:56:21 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 05:56:21 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback question In-Reply-To: <42326716-0DB4-443A-AD40-27C09A25A76C@solareagle.com> References: <42326716-0DB4-443A-AD40-27C09A25A76C@solareagle.com> Message-ID: <64440401-7D0D-4519-AF48-C420752E99D3@gmail.com> Is the generator power passing through the inverter to the loads, probably not? > On Aug 16, 2024, at 12:36 AM, solareagle--- via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Message from the client tonight indicates the inverter charger has now completely failed. Still inverting. Which board controls charging? > > Ray, good point about running the generator through a transformer. I suggested that several years ago but the extra cost was a no go. > > Ron > >> On Aug 15, 2024, at 10:08 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> If he's not running the generator through a transformer, then he's probably just running 120 vac off one leg of the generator, with no load on the other leg. This imbalance will definitely cause generator failures long term, and not reliably charge the batteries. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> >>> On 8/15/2024 7:36 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> My question would be what is the combined generator load? Did anything change? Anything new, solar parts or ac loads or new person around? >>> >>> The max charging is around 20 amps or 2400 watts, + loads can get pretty large. >>> Most generators don’t have that kind of 120v capacity. I ask because he’s burned out 2 generators which says to me his programming might be incorrect. >>> I’ve seen odd behavior if the generator is running too hard, if so I have people turn down the ac input amps. It doesn’t matter where the charge amps is, loads are priority. >>> And >>> >>> I’ve not seen this exact set of issues. Could be settings or an actual board. >>> Probably not the fet board but could be either the ac or control board. >>> Jay >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Aug 15, 2024, at 7:02 PM, Ron Young via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Wrenches, I have a client who has a 6 year old Outback 3524 inverter. It has performed well for him until two months ago when he started seeing huge fluctuations in the charging behaviour indicated on the Mate and flaky behaviour in the household loads. He said he’s also “burned out” a couple of generators. The AC loads remaining constant while the charging loads would fluctuate, doubling sometimes. >>>> >>>> Because he’s pretty remote I’ve had him troubleshooting and he has replaced the battery pack, switched generators, checked all the wiring. He found a loose wire incoming from the generator but when repaired it made no difference. I believe the problem may be the charging board in the Outback is failing. Appreciate any comments or suggestions. Also what is the current status of boards from Outback? From reading the Wrenches list I see that Outback has changed hands recently. >>>> >>>> Thank you! >>>> >>>> Ron Young >>>> earthRight Solar - Solareagle.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Aug 16 07:59:08 2024 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 05:59:08 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback in general In-Reply-To: References: <3CF5DB19-FCEB-45BE-9DB9-3F621CD03825@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jason, I had a smooth sailing warranty part replacement a few weeks ago on an Outback system. I can't say, with confidence, that will be your experience. It did take 3 weeks to get the replacement but I was somewhat impressed it showed up at all. We have come across many, many Outback systems that were improperly installed/improperly configured. We cruise in and look like heroes by solving very basic issues with a few button pushes and a little bit of site work. I'd be very up front with them and let them know that it may be a rough road to get good tech support or warranty replacement.. If they have a Mate 3s online, try to get access granted to Optics RE. This can be a clunky process if you aren't the original site administrator. Or they may be able to share their log in. If its not online but they have an internet connection, bring a little Wifi client that will allow you to hardwire the Mate in so you can start looking for trends. If you have them push the event button, and scroll back through history, texting pics, you may get a clearer picture of what they may have going on. For on site phone support, Zonna is a great resource. Let us know if you end up diving in and need some ideas! On Thu, Aug 15, 2024 at 2:05 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > It has been a few weeks since this was last discussed, and I'm looking for > an update from anyone who knows if Outback is likely to exist as we know it > going forward. > > There are virtually none of their products installed locally, but I have a > new off-grid client with a quad VFX stack system with multiple errors that > appear to be fatal. I have not been there personally, however. I was told > they were installed last year, which makes me suspicious about these errors. > > I'm wondering if I even want to get involved. It seems like a quagmire > waiting to happen, but it's also located on an island where I am doing a > lot of other work and would like to be the "go to guy" out there. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Sat, Jul 20, 2024 at 7:26 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> James Showalter from Signature Solar and Eric Lundgren from Big Battery >> purchased Outback Solar. I have had terrible tech support experiences from >> both of those outfits, they tend to conveniently "forget" your engineering >> and NEC code compliance support requests when the answer is just simply >> "no, not yet UL listed" or "we don't know if that feature works or not." >> I'm not sure how these prolific suppliers of cheap crap products with >> terrible QC and NIB failure rates intend to compete, but my guess is that >> they have control of the big crap overseas product pipeline nozzle and >> intend to steer the huge stream of sewage in our direction. Sol-Ark just >> imports Deye products and retrofits them with their own upgrades and >> firmware. Magnum has vanished, much to my dismay as my own system is Magnum >> as are dozens of my customers. >> >> Us off-grid folks still have a couple guys named boB and Robin at Midnite >> that still manufacture, sell and support good products. Maybe Morningstar >> will up their game into larger inverters. Why are all these shady import >> companies based in Texas? Inquiring minds want to know! BTW, I hate >> all-in-ones, never had a single good experience, just endless firmware and >> comms updates and such simple issues resulting in multiple truck rolls. >> >> I miss Lones Tuss of Outback calling me back on a Friday evening at 7PM >> and remotely diagnosing my client's VFX / Mate 3S issues whilst doing his >> laundry at home, after I submitted a ticket earlier that day. The client >> seriously thought I was pulling a practical joke on him until I put Lones >> on speaker. >> >> Strange new world for us off-grid folks. I'll have to stick with the very >> few companies left that I trust. Yes, yes, Schneider, but their tech >> support is almost impenetrable. >> >> Our strange new off-grid world seems to be destined as crap from Alibaba >> and Amazon, and it all smells rather off to me, like the "fresh fish" at a >> run-down Safeway in eastern Kansas.... >> >> Dan Fink >> Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC >> IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation >> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector >> NABCEP PV Associate >> d anbob88 at gmail.com >> 970-672-4342 >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Jul 20, 2024 at 3:22 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I just checked the OB forums page and there is nothing current. >>> >>> One thing I found says that the new president of OB is the CEO of Big >>> Battery. I don’t know that to be a fact. >>> Which is also somehow related to signature solar/ EG4. >>> >>> My guess is that if/when OB resurfaces it won’t have the same products. >>> It’ll just be an old name selling new products and they won’t be dealing >>> with old legacy products, warranty or MX or tech support. >>> >>> I could be way wrong. >>> >>> But anyone trying to keep a product line going wouldn’t just stop all >>> communication for a few months. >>> >>> Maybe someone who has been an OB distributor might know more about >>> what’s up? I no longer have any of those contacts. >>> >>> New world, fellow wrenches. >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Aug 16 09:40:07 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 07:40:07 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] discover lithium warranty issues. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hiltondier at gmail.com Fri Aug 16 17:55:43 2024 From: hiltondier at gmail.com (Hilton Dier, III) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 17:55:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Portable systems Message-ID: I've got someone asking me about a portable system. It really doesn't have to be that portable. They just need a couple of kWh to back up their pellet stove for a day. There are loads of battery-and-inverter-in-a-box systems out there, but I have no idea about the quality of components. Does anybody have experience with any of these systems and have any recommendations? Many thanks, Hilton Dier Missisquoi River Hydro LLC Renewable Energy Design -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Fri Aug 16 19:16:16 2024 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 16:16:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Portable systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have two Jackery units and both are great. small 500W and the other is either 2 or 3kW On Fri, Aug 16, 2024 at 2:55 PM Hilton Dier, III via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I've got someone asking me about a portable system. It really doesn't have > to be that portable. They just need a couple of kWh to back up their pellet > stove for a day. There are loads of battery-and-inverter-in-a-box systems > out there, but I have no idea about the quality of components. Does anybody > have experience with any of these systems and have any recommendations? > > Many thanks, > > Hilton Dier > > Missisquoi River Hydro LLC > Renewable Energy Design > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Fri Aug 16 19:33:04 2024 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 16:33:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Portable systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You want to make sure that it has LFP cells and not NMC. Some of them do still have NMC or similar cells. Brad On Fri, Aug 16, 2024, 4:17 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I have two Jackery units and both are great. small 500W and the other is > either 2 or 3kW > > On Fri, Aug 16, 2024 at 2:55 PM Hilton Dier, III via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I've got someone asking me about a portable system. It really doesn't >> have to be that portable. They just need a couple of kWh to back up their >> pellet stove for a day. There are loads of battery-and-inverter-in-a-box >> systems out there, but I have no idea about the quality of components. Does >> anybody have experience with any of these systems and have any >> recommendations? >> >> Many thanks, >> >> Hilton Dier >> >> Missisquoi River Hydro LLC >> Renewable Energy Design >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Aug 16 19:42:12 2024 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 16:42:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Portable systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a couple of Jackery units as well and they have worked great for 2 or 3 years now running my fridge, internet, and work computer setup when the power goes out. I've also taken them camping. Mine are slightly older with NMC cells, but I agree that if I was going to buy a new one that LFP is the way to go: https://www.jackery.com/products/explorer-2000-plus-portable-power-station August On Fri, Aug 16, 2024 at 4:34 PM Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > You want to make sure that it has LFP cells and not NMC. Some of them do > still have NMC or similar cells. > > Brad > > On Fri, Aug 16, 2024, 4:17 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I have two Jackery units and both are great. small 500W and the other is >> either 2 or 3kW >> >> On Fri, Aug 16, 2024 at 2:55 PM Hilton Dier, III via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I've got someone asking me about a portable system. It really doesn't >>> have to be that portable. They just need a couple of kWh to back up their >>> pellet stove for a day. There are loads of battery-and-inverter-in-a-box >>> systems out there, but I have no idea about the quality of components. Does >>> anybody have experience with any of these systems and have any >>> recommendations? >>> >>> Many thanks, >>> >>> Hilton Dier >>> >>> Missisquoi River Hydro LLC >>> Renewable Energy Design >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sat Aug 17 10:55:23 2024 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2024 10:55:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Portable systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02885809fc7e1b855760984318b8ce4e@redwoodalliance.org> People have been really happy with GoSun units. This is a very inspired, small company owned and operated by Patrick Sherwin. --- On 2024-08-16 19:42, August Goers via RE-wrenches wrote: > I have a couple of Jackery units as well and they have worked great for > 2 or 3 years now running my fridge, internet, and work computer setup > when the power goes out. I've also taken them camping. Mine are > slightly older with NMC cells, but I agree that if I was going to buy a > new one that LFP is the way to go: > > https://www.jackery.com/products/explorer-2000-plus-portable-power-station > > August > > On Fri, Aug 16, 2024 at 4:34 PM Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches > wrote: > You want to make sure that it has LFP cells and not NMC. Some of them > do still have NMC or similar cells. > > Brad > > On Fri, Aug 16, 2024, 4:17 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > I have two Jackery units and both are great. small 500W and the other > is either 2 or 3kW > > On Fri, Aug 16, 2024 at 2:55 PM Hilton Dier, III via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > I've got someone asking me about a portable system. It really doesn't > have to be that portable. They just need a couple of kWh to back up > their pellet stove for a day. There are loads of > battery-and-inverter-in-a-box systems out there, but I have no idea > about the quality of components. Does anybody have experience with any > of these systems and have any recommendations? > > Many thanks, > > Hilton Dier > > Missisquoi River Hydro LLC > Renewable Energy Design _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sat Aug 17 11:16:14 2024 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2024 11:16:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Portable systems Message-ID: <9n1nu8l3fas84qq5rf69ip0q.1723907497220@email.lge.com> A while ago I researched a half dozen systems from as many manufacturers and chose Bluetti as the best bang for the buck.I own and operate many of them, and have a few cabin owners using them instead of gasoline generators, happily.Anker is a relatively new entrant to the market of these devices, however has a long reputation in portable powerbanks and is my favorite manufacturer of those products. I think they would also be a good contender for this purpose.This market is growing fast and has many new players, so is hard to keep up with.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Hilton Dier, III via RE-wrenchesDate: Fri, Aug 16, 2024 5:56 PMTo: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org;Cc: Hilton Dier, III;Subject:[RE-wrenches] Portable systemsI've got someone asking me about a portable system. It really doesn't have to be that portable. They just need a couple of kWh to back up their pellet stove for a day. There are loads of battery-and-inverter-in-a-box systems out there, but I have no idea about the quality of components. Does anybody have experience with any of these systems and have any recommendations?Many thanks,Hilton DierMissisquoi River Hydro LLCRenewable Energy Design -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Aug 17 15:44:48 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2024 12:44:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Portable systems In-Reply-To: <9n1nu8l3fas84qq5rf69ip0q.1723907497220@email.lge.com> References: <9n1nu8l3fas84qq5rf69ip0q.1723907497220@email.lge.com> Message-ID: <1aa9d4ae42dea88c7c3d4f3e70b5dd69@sti.net> Some of these even have the 240 receptacle to plug into a 30A home dryer receptacle for hurricane connection. Get the HV solar mppt built-in option and a some panels and you are set for the 30% tax credit. Might not need a wrench someday 😉 Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-08-17 8:16 am, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches wrote: > A while ago I researched a half dozen systems from as many > manufacturers and chose Bluetti as the best bang for the buck. > I own and operate many of them, and have a few cabin owners using them > instead of gasoline generators, happily. > > Anker is a relatively new entrant to the market of these devices, > however has a long reputation in portable powerbanks and is my favorite > manufacturer of those products. I think they would also be a good > contender for this purpose. > > This market is growing fast and has many new players, so is hard to > keep up with. > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > From: Hilton Dier, III via RE-wrenches > Date: Fri, Aug 16, 2024 5:56 PM > To: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org; > Cc: Hilton Dier, III; > Subject:[RE-wrenches] Portable systems > > I've got someone asking me about a portable system. It really doesn't > have to be that portable. They just need a couple of kWh to back up > their pellet stove for a day. There are loads of > battery-and-inverter-in-a-box systems out there, but I have no idea > about the quality of components. Does anybody have experience with any > of these systems and have any recommendations? > > Many thanks, > > Hilton Dier > > Missisquoi River Hydro LLC > Renewable Energy Design > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Sun Aug 18 13:11:15 2024 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2024 13:11:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OB Radian / FM60 grid tie mystery Message-ID: Hello All, . I have a Radian 8048 system in service for over 10 years now. It sold back quite normally until the last several months -3.- FM60 CC's are set to grid tie mode and viewable and programmed from the Mate3s / OpticsRE. This issue loosely correlates to replacing one of the CCs several months ago. Trouble is all -3- charge controllers are almost always in a float mode. The radian does sell, but at a small KW compared to what it used to before the frequent float mode started popping up. If I remember correctly, ideally the CCs should always be in bulk charge when sellback occurs. I have the CC and inverter charger float set to about 1 vdc higher then the inverter's sell volts, as I believe was recommended way back when. Hard to understand what changed, but something did. I've checked the relevant setpoints many times and can't find anything obviously amiss. Does a sell mode tech note paper exist still for the Radian system? Did it ever? Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Sun Aug 18 13:45:40 2024 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (Foxfire Energy) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2024 17:45:40 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OB Radian / FM60 grid tie mystery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6A24563E-0A5D-4F70-A899-1C2DB3D6ED25@foxfire-energy.com> I had a similar problem a while back and it turned out to be the FNDC calling the shots.. Unplug the FNDC (if you’re using one).. see what happens. db Sent from my iPhone On Aug 18, 2024, at 1:12 PM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches wrote:  Hello All, . I have a Radian 8048 system in service for over 10 years now. It sold back quite normally until the last several months -3.- FM60 CC's are set to grid tie mode and viewable and programmed from the Mate3s / OpticsRE. This issue loosely correlates to replacing one of the CCs several months ago. Trouble is all -3- charge controllers are almost always in a float mode. The radian does sell, but at a small KW compared to what it used to before the frequent float mode started popping up. If I remember correctly, ideally the CCs should always be in bulk charge when sellback occurs. I have the CC and inverter charger float set to about 1 vdc higher then the inverter's sell volts, as I believe was recommended way back when. Hard to understand what changed, but something did. I've checked the relevant setpoints many times and can't find anything obviously amiss. Does a sell mode tech note paper exist still for the Radian system? Did it ever? Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. -- Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!! dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Aug 18 14:57:20 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2024 12:57:20 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OB Radian / FM60 grid tie mystery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Sun Aug 18 15:57:13 2024 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2024 12:57:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OB Radian / FM60 grid tie mystery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You're observing this on all three controllers or is the reduced sell back off by a factor that would correlate to the newest controller you swapped? Did you calibrate the new controller while the PV breakers were all off? I still come across new FM80's that require utilizing the entire .5vdc margin to match my Fluke. Though it's not a solution can you temporarily raise the bulk setpoints of all three to verify expected outputs? It does seem like there was a document on proper sell back settings somewhere. Good luck, Nick On Sun, Aug 18, 2024 at 10:11 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello All, > . > I have a Radian 8048 system in service for over 10 years now. It sold back > quite normally until the last several months -3.- FM60 CC's are set to grid > tie mode and viewable and programmed from the Mate3s / OpticsRE. This > issue loosely correlates to replacing one of the CCs several months ago. > > Trouble is all -3- charge controllers are almost always in a float mode. > The radian does sell, but at a small KW compared to what it used to before > the frequent float mode started popping up. If I remember correctly, > ideally the CCs should always be in bulk charge when sellback occurs. > > I have the CC and inverter charger float set to about 1 vdc higher then > the inverter's sell volts, as I believe was recommended way back when. Hard > to understand what changed, but something did. I've checked the relevant > setpoints many times and can't find anything obviously amiss. > > Does a sell mode tech note paper exist still for the Radian system? Did it > ever? Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. > > > > > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Sun Aug 18 16:58:21 2024 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2024 16:58:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OB Radian / FM60 grid tie mystery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Looks like its only programmable directly on the Mate3s, not in optics RE. Or maybe I haven;t found it yet. On Sun, Aug 18, 2024 at 3:22 PM Jay wrote: > There is a setting called > > FLEXnet dc advanced control. > > Default is Y > > I always set it to N > > Pg 128 in my manual. > > Jay > > On Aug 18, 2024, at 11:11 AM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Hello All, > . > I have a Radian 8048 system in service for over 10 years now. It sold back > quite normally until the last several months -3.- FM60 CC's are set to grid > tie mode and viewable and programmed from the Mate3s / OpticsRE. This > issue loosely correlates to replacing one of the CCs several months ago. > > Trouble is all -3- charge controllers are almost always in a float mode. > The radian does sell, but at a small KW compared to what it used to before > the frequent float mode started popping up. If I remember correctly, > ideally the CCs should always be in bulk charge when sellback occurs. > > I have the CC and inverter charger float set to about 1 vdc higher then > the inverter's sell volts, as I believe was recommended way back when. Hard > to understand what changed, but something did. I've checked the relevant > setpoints many times and can't find anything obviously amiss. > > Does a sell mode tech note paper exist still for the Radian system? Did it > ever? Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. > > > > > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Sun Aug 18 18:18:10 2024 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2024 17:18:10 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OB Radian / FM60 grid tie mystery Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: preview.png Type: image/png Size: 249732 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Aug 18 19:20:13 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2024 17:20:13 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OB Radian / FM60 grid tie mystery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9FD6DF6F-490B-4E56-BB68-C20779780E6D@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Aug 18 19:51:15 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2024 16:51:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OB Radian / FM60 grid tie mystery In-Reply-To: <9FD6DF6F-490B-4E56-BB68-C20779780E6D@gmail.com> References: <9FD6DF6F-490B-4E56-BB68-C20779780E6D@gmail.com> Message-ID: You are all the Outaback wrenches but with Schneider before you reset the defaults, you should just do a complete DC power down. Just in case it is a stuck bit in config. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [2]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [3] [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-08-18 4:20 pm, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > One other thing that has worked for weird issues is a full factory > reset of everything. > > Jay > >> On Aug 18, 2024, at 4:18 PM, Maverick Brown >> wrote: > > On OpticsRE go to devices, Mate3S, Global Charge. Disable everything > there and for good measure also set the Maximum Battery Charge to > generously large number. > > Also, if you recently upgraded to Inverter software 1.6.63 or later, > you have to do some procedure to edit the maximum sell current > > > > upgrading_1_6_63_app_note [1] > PDF Document · 200 KB [1] > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > * Solar Commander Remote Power > * SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > On Aug 18, 2024, at 3:59 PM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Looks like its only programmable directly on the Mate3s, not in optics > RE. Or maybe I haven;t found it yet. > > On Sun, Aug 18, 2024 at 3:22 PM Jay wrote: > > There is a setting called > > FLEXnet dc advanced control. > > Default is Y > > I always set it to N > > Pg 128 in my manual. > > Jay > > On Aug 18, 2024, at 11:11 AM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hello All, > . > I have a Radian 8048 system in service for over 10 years now. It sold > back quite normally until the last several months -3.- FM60 CC's are > set to grid tie mode and viewable and programmed from the Mate3s / > OpticsRE. This issue loosely correlates to replacing one of the CCs > several months ago. > > Trouble is all -3- charge controllers are almost always in a float > mode. The radian does sell, but at a small KW compared to what it used > to before the frequent float mode started popping up. If I remember > correctly, ideally the CCs should always be in bulk charge when > sellback occurs. > > I have the CC and inverter charger float set to about 1 vdc higher then > the inverter's sell volts, as I believe was recommended way back when. > Hard to understand what changed, but something did. I've checked the > relevant setpoints many times and can't find anything obviously amiss. > > Does a sell mode tech note paper exist still for the Radian system? Did > it ever? Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. > > -- > > Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar > > Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC > > _Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!_ > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC _Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!_ dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] https://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/upgrading_1_6_63_app_note.pdf [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Mon Aug 19 17:47:50 2024 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2024 15:47:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] discover lithium warranty issues. In-Reply-To: References: <5917F34D-5CF6-47BF-A652-D69E6C83E210@gmail.com> <7B7F1E7E-237C-4892-8EBB-E6A6C8395858@gmail.com> Message-ID: <07B4711F-7574-493F-A2EA-ECCCF90C0085@gmail.com> Dave- following up on this- Point taken- but I still reserve the right to be annoyed when a high-priced, properly-set-up, top tier product with a 10-year warranty fails in under three years and the case ends up in a warranty exception loophole with no joy. I’ll get over it though. Luke Christy 719-588-3044 > On Aug 15, 2024, at 12:08 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Being from Manufacturing I just disagree that warranty should pass on to a different owner. (Unless in writing) > Too much chance for failure with a new owner. > > We do want these folks to stay in business right? Batteries are hard enough in residential when doing everything correct. > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > > On 2024-08-15 10:57 am, Luke Christy via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> I also have had a poor experience with Discover's warranty. >> I installed 3x 7.4kWh AES batteries for an off-grid customer in 2020. I registered the warranty for all three within a few weeks of installation. Fast forward to 2023, the original customer sold the property and the new owner asked me out to troubleshoot a storage issue. One battery had failed to due a faulty BMS. Discover refused to honor the warranty because the property had changed hands (they tie the warranty to the original registered owner), and the new owner was stuck buying a new battery. >> >> Discover did offer the replacement at a slightly discounted price but I thought it was lousy to find out that a 10-year warranty product suddenly has no warranty if the property is ever sold. It really turned me off, and I was left with the feeling that I might have had better luck getting a warranty replacement if I had never registered the batteries at all. >> >> >> Luke Christy >> Renewable energy consultant >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: >> >> Solar Gain Services, LLC >> PO Box 531 >> Monte Vista, CO 81144 >> sgsrenewables at gmail >> >>> On Aug 15, 2024, at 9:49 AM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> I have an installer buddy where i used to live who's having to try and get a discover lithium warrantied. >>> >>> Its 3 yrs old, 2 years installed. >>> >>> The dealer is closed, and the customer doesn't have the POP. >>> >>> Discover is being very difficult. >>> >>> The battery appears to have a dead cell block which makes trying to get info out of the battery all but impossible as it won't stay on long enough to download the info. >>> >>> Does anyone have a contact who could help my installer/friend with this issue? >>> >>> thanks >>> >>> Jay >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Mon Aug 19 18:04:05 2024 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2024 17:04:05 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] discover lithium warranty issues. In-Reply-To: <07B4711F-7574-493F-A2EA-ECCCF90C0085@gmail.com> References: <07B4711F-7574-493F-A2EA-ECCCF90C0085@gmail.com> Message-ID: <169BB18D-D715-401D-A016-1F7739F707B6@mavericksolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Aug 19 18:11:43 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2024 15:11:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] discover lithium warranty issues. In-Reply-To: <07B4711F-7574-493F-A2EA-ECCCF90C0085@gmail.com> References: <5917F34D-5CF6-47BF-A652-D69E6C83E210@gmail.com> <7B7F1E7E-237C-4892-8EBB-E6A6C8395858@gmail.com> <07B4711F-7574-493F-A2EA-ECCCF90C0085@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2766b97a7ed471db964730fe7c2461e2@sti.net> Fair enough! Without knowing all the facts I would also say not that hard to download the battery data to a thumb drive and ask why the battery failed? Sometimes making the effort will help get a better price break. I have had them be very fair with me on my clients dumb mistakes. Have a good evening! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-08-19 2:47 pm, Luke Christy via RE-wrenches wrote: > Dave- following up on this- > > Point taken- but I still reserve the right to be annoyed when a > high-priced, properly-set-up, top tier product with a 10-year warranty > fails in under three years and the case ends up in a warranty exception > loophole with no joy. > I'll get over it though. > > Luke Christy > 719-588-3044 > > On Aug 15, 2024, at 12:08 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > Being from Manufacturing I just disagree that warranty should pass on > to a different owner. (Unless in writing) > Too much chance for failure with a new owner. > > We do want these folks to stay in business right? Batteries are hard > enough in residential when doing everything correct. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On 2024-08-15 10:57 am, Luke Christy via RE-wrenches wrote: > I also have had a poor experience with Discover's warranty. > I installed 3x 7.4kWh AES batteries for an off-grid customer in 2020. I > registered the warranty for all three within a few weeks of > installation. Fast forward to 2023, the original customer sold the > property and the new owner asked me out to troubleshoot a storage > issue. One battery had failed to due a faulty BMS. Discover refused to > honor the warranty because the property had changed hands (they tie the > warranty to the original registered owner), and the new owner was stuck > buying a new battery. > > Discover did offer the replacement at a slightly discounted price but I > thought it was lousy to find out that a 10-year warranty product > suddenly has no warranty if the property is ever sold. It really turned > me off, and I was left with the feeling that I might have had better > luck getting a warranty replacement if I had never registered the > batteries at all. > > Luke Christy > Renewable energy consultant > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional(tm): > > Solar Gain Services, LLC > PO Box 531 > Monte Vista, CO 81144 > sgsrenewables at gmail > > On Aug 15, 2024, at 9:49 AM, jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi All, > > I have an installer buddy where i used to live who's having to try and > get a discover lithium warrantied. > > Its 3 yrs old, 2 years installed. > > The dealer is closed, and the customer doesn't have the POP. > > Discover is being very difficult. > > The battery appears to have a dead cell block which makes trying to get > info out of the battery all but impossible as it won't stay on long > enough to download the info. > > Does anyone have a contact who could help my installer/friend with > this issue? > > thanks > > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [3] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [4] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ [3] http://re-wrenches.org/ [4] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Mon Aug 19 18:17:46 2024 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2024 15:17:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] discover lithium warranty issues. In-Reply-To: <169BB18D-D715-401D-A016-1F7739F707B6@mavericksolar.com> References: <07B4711F-7574-493F-A2EA-ECCCF90C0085@gmail.com> <169BB18D-D715-401D-A016-1F7739F707B6@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: If a manufacturer decides to pettifog over a property being sold in order to escape warranty obligation.. yikes! no thanks On Mon, Aug 19, 2024 at 3:04 PM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Luke > > I appreciate the follow up. > > And as a/an FLA/AGM to Lithium upgrader with many of my customers and > having deployed Discover batteries myself, I will remember your “joy” and > take notes. Lots of choices to be made. And I have notes on the customers / > batteries and results. > > Companies will stand by their products or they won’t. Let’s contribute and > make sure our customers are taken care of and even our own homes where we > have all these test systems. > > Let the games begin. > > Okay. I know. They already started. ;-) > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > > > On Aug 19, 2024, at 4:49 PM, Luke Christy via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Dave- following up on this- > > Point taken- but I still reserve the right to be annoyed when a > high-priced, properly-set-up, top tier product with a 10-year warranty > fails in under three years and the case ends up in a warranty exception > loophole with no joy. > I’ll get over it though. > > > Luke Christy > 719-588-3044 > > > > On Aug 15, 2024, at 12:08 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Being from Manufacturing I just disagree that warranty should pass on to a different owner. (Unless in writing) > Too much chance for failure with a new owner. > > We do want these folks to stay in business right? Batteries are hard enough in residential when doing everything correct. > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2024-08-15 10:57 am, Luke Christy via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I also have had a poor experience with Discover's warranty. > I installed 3x 7.4kWh AES batteries for an off-grid customer in 2020. I > registered the warranty for all three within a few weeks of installation. > Fast forward to 2023, the original customer sold the property and the new > owner asked me out to troubleshoot a storage issue. One battery had failed > to due a faulty BMS. Discover refused to honor the warranty because the > property had changed hands (they tie the warranty to the original > registered owner), and the new owner was stuck buying a new battery. > > Discover did offer the replacement at a slightly discounted price but I > thought it was lousy to find out that a 10-year warranty product suddenly > has no warranty if the property is ever sold. It really turned me off, and > I was left with the feeling that I might have had better luck getting a > warranty replacement if I had never registered the batteries at all. > > > Luke Christy > Renewable energy consultant > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: > > Solar Gain Services, LLC > PO Box 531 > Monte Vista, CO 81144 > sgsrenewables at gmail > > On Aug 15, 2024, at 9:49 AM, jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi All, > > I have an installer buddy where i used to live who's having to try and > get a discover lithium warrantied. > > Its 3 yrs old, 2 years installed. > > The dealer is closed, and the customer doesn't have the POP. > > Discover is being very difficult. > > The battery appears to have a dead cell block which makes trying to get > info out of the battery all but impossible as it won't stay on long enough > to download the info. > > Does anyone have a contact who could help my installer/friend with this > issue? > > thanks > > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Mon Aug 19 18:31:25 2024 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2024 16:31:25 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] discover lithium warranty issues. In-Reply-To: <2766b97a7ed471db964730fe7c2461e2@sti.net> References: <5917F34D-5CF6-47BF-A652-D69E6C83E210@gmail.com> <7B7F1E7E-237C-4892-8EBB-E6A6C8395858@gmail.com> <07B4711F-7574-493F-A2EA-ECCCF90C0085@gmail.com> <2766b97a7ed471db964730fe7c2461e2@sti.net> Message-ID: <75732FCA-7214-47DD-8B2F-D9A26ED0988B@gmail.com> We actually did download the log files for the two batteries that were functional. That data was sent in to Discover. The third battery that completely failed was totally unresponsive and could not be awakened to be able to extract the log files. The two that didn’t fail are still working and seem to be performing normally. Luke Christy 719-588-3044 > On Aug 19, 2024, at 4:11 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Fair enough! Without knowing all the facts I would also say not that hard to download the battery data to a thumb drive and ask why the battery failed? Sometimes making the effort will help get a better price break. I have had them be very fair with me on my clients dumb mistakes. > > Have a good evening! > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > > On 2024-08-19 2:47 pm, Luke Christy via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> Dave- following up on this- >> >> Point taken- but I still reserve the right to be annoyed when a high-priced, properly-set-up, top tier product with a 10-year warranty fails in under three years and the case ends up in a warranty exception loophole with no joy. >> I'll get over it though. >> >> >> Luke Christy >> 719-588-3044 >> >> >>> On Aug 15, 2024, at 12:08 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Being from Manufacturing I just disagree that warranty should pass on to a different owner. (Unless in writing) >>> Too much chance for failure with a new owner. >>> >>> We do want these folks to stay in business right? Batteries are hard enough in residential when doing everything correct. >>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060 >>> >>> >>> On 2024-08-15 10:57 am, Luke Christy via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> I also have had a poor experience with Discover's warranty. >>> I installed 3x 7.4kWh AES batteries for an off-grid customer in 2020. I registered the warranty for all three within a few weeks of installation. Fast forward to 2023, the original customer sold the property and the new owner asked me out to troubleshoot a storage issue. One battery had failed to due a faulty BMS. Discover refused to honor the warranty because the property had changed hands (they tie the warranty to the original registered owner), and the new owner was stuck buying a new battery. >>> >>> Discover did offer the replacement at a slightly discounted price but I thought it was lousy to find out that a 10-year warranty product suddenly has no warranty if the property is ever sold. It really turned me off, and I was left with the feeling that I might have had better luck getting a warranty replacement if I had never registered the batteries at all. >>> >>> >>> Luke Christy >>> Renewable energy consultant >>> >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: >>> >>> Solar Gain Services, LLC >>> PO Box 531 >>> Monte Vista, CO 81144 >>> sgsrenewables at gmail >>> >>> On Aug 15, 2024, at 9:49 AM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> I have an installer buddy where i used to live who's having to try and get a discover lithium warrantied. >>> >>> Its 3 yrs old, 2 years installed. >>> >>> The dealer is closed, and the customer doesn't have the POP. >>> >>> Discover is being very difficult. >>> >>> The battery appears to have a dead cell block which makes trying to get info out of the battery all but impossible as it won't stay on long enough to download the info. >>> >>> Does anyone have a contact who could help my installer/friend with this issue? >>> >>> thanks >>> >>> Jay >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Mon Aug 19 20:14:14 2024 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2024 20:14:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] discover lithium warranty issues. In-Reply-To: References: <07B4711F-7574-493F-A2EA-ECCCF90C0085@gmail.com> <169BB18D-D715-401D-A016-1F7739F707B6@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: I had a similar experience with Discover warranty recently with a Link II. I correctly installed internal jumpers and external comms cables, and during the commissioning process I heard a popping sound from inside the Link. The center relay board was visibly burnt. After creating a ticket and corresponding with tech support, they accused me of plugging in the link cable to the Ethernet port, which I very definitely did not do. The Link was no longer under warranty due to…something that didn’t happen? I had another Link on hand and swapped it out on my own dime. It was a frustrating experience, but luckily it was a hundreds, not thousands of dollars headache. No warm and fuzzies. On the other hand, Fortress Power RMA’d an eVault Max BMS for me today that failed after a lighting strike. Very obviously not under warranty, but they replaced it anyways. Yes warm and fuzzies. On Mon, Aug 19, 2024 at 6:18 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > If a manufacturer decides to pettifog over a property being sold in > order to escape warranty obligation.. yikes! no thanks > > On Mon, Aug 19, 2024 at 3:04 PM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Luke >> >> I appreciate the follow up. >> >> And as a/an FLA/AGM to Lithium upgrader with many of my customers and >> having deployed Discover batteries myself, I will remember your “joy” and >> take notes. Lots of choices to be made. And I have notes on the customers / >> batteries and results. >> >> Companies will stand by their products or they won’t. Let’s contribute >> and make sure our customers are taken care of and even our own homes where >> we have all these test systems. >> >> Let the games begin. >> >> Okay. I know. They already started. ;-) >> >> Thank you, >> >> Maverick >> >> Maverick Brown >> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 >> Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. >> • Solar Commander Remote Power >> • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection >> maverick at mavericksolar.com >> 512-460-9825 >> >> >> >> On Aug 19, 2024, at 4:49 PM, Luke Christy via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Dave- following up on this- >> >> Point taken- but I still reserve the right to be annoyed when a >> high-priced, properly-set-up, top tier product with a 10-year warranty >> fails in under three years and the case ends up in a warranty exception >> loophole with no joy. >> I’ll get over it though. >> >> >> Luke Christy >> 719-588-3044 >> >> >> >> On Aug 15, 2024, at 12:08 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> Being from Manufacturing I just disagree that warranty should pass on to a different owner. (Unless in writing) >> Too much chance for failure with a new owner. >> >> We do want these folks to stay in business right? Batteries are hard enough in residential when doing everything correct. >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> >> On 2024-08-15 10:57 am, Luke Christy via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> I also have had a poor experience with Discover's warranty. >> I installed 3x 7.4kWh AES batteries for an off-grid customer in 2020. I >> registered the warranty for all three within a few weeks of installation. >> Fast forward to 2023, the original customer sold the property and the new >> owner asked me out to troubleshoot a storage issue. One battery had failed >> to due a faulty BMS. Discover refused to honor the warranty because the >> property had changed hands (they tie the warranty to the original >> registered owner), and the new owner was stuck buying a new battery. >> >> Discover did offer the replacement at a slightly discounted price but I >> thought it was lousy to find out that a 10-year warranty product suddenly >> has no warranty if the property is ever sold. It really turned me off, and >> I was left with the feeling that I might have had better luck getting a >> warranty replacement if I had never registered the batteries at all. >> >> >> Luke Christy >> Renewable energy consultant >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: >> >> Solar Gain Services, LLC >> PO Box 531 >> Monte Vista, CO 81144 >> sgsrenewables at gmail >> >> On Aug 15, 2024, at 9:49 AM, jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> >> I have an installer buddy where i used to live who's having to try and >> get a discover lithium warrantied. >> >> Its 3 yrs old, 2 years installed. >> >> The dealer is closed, and the customer doesn't have the POP. >> >> Discover is being very difficult. >> >> The battery appears to have a dead cell block which makes trying to get >> info out of the battery all but impossible as it won't stay on long enough >> to download the info. >> >> Does anyone have a contact who could help my installer/friend with this >> issue? >> >> thanks >> >> Jay >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Aug 20 09:14:31 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2024 07:14:31 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cell based monitoring Message-ID: Hi All I’ve got a client who has a large ranch and wants to monitor (via a web and or app) and control ( simple on/off dry contact) some pumps and tanks and maybe some water meters as well. There is cell service. He has web service at his house. Does anyone know of a place to start? Thanks in advance Jay From maverick at mavericksolar.com Tue Aug 20 09:59:29 2024 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2024 08:59:29 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cell based monitoring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21A1EF08-656D-4398-A1D2-38B9ABAB09B3@mavericksolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 41LnvFAm4BL._BO60,255,255,255_US1600_PIRIOTHREEANDHALF-large,BottomLeft,-680,0_ZA121,780,1460,400,1000,AmazonEmber,86,4,0,0_PIWhiteStrip,BottomRight,680,0_BO40,255,255,255_SR1910,1000,0,C.jpg Type: image/png Size: 47907 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Aug 20 10:34:58 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2024 08:34:58 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cell based monitoring In-Reply-To: <21A1EF08-656D-4398-A1D2-38B9ABAB09B3@mavericksolar.com> References: <21A1EF08-656D-4398-A1D2-38B9ABAB09B3@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Aug 20 10:58:05 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2024 07:58:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cell based monitoring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7ebf51c00db8335f692761b07ad33753@mail.gmail.com> Jay: I like the Control-by-web product line. It is a Swiss Army Knife type system with many building blocks. Here is a project using the system. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2024 6:15 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jay Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cell based monitoring Hi All I’ve got a client who has a large ranch and wants to monitor (via a web and or app) and control ( simple on/off dry contact) some pumps and tanks and maybe some water meters as well. There is cell service. He has web service at his house. Does anyone know of a place to start? Thanks in advance Jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Tue Aug 20 11:28:35 2024 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2024 10:28:35 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cell based monitoring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <98201DDD-E203-4AA6-9A0E-B7368B3BF791@mavericksolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue Aug 20 11:28:55 2024 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2024 09:28:55 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cell based monitoring In-Reply-To: <7ebf51c00db8335f692761b07ad33753@mail.gmail.com> References: <7ebf51c00db8335f692761b07ad33753@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay, Regarding Victron, it may still be useful. You can boot up the Cerbo with DC power, they have a DC powered cell modem (need to use SIM card from a carrier that is GSM (I've used T-Mobile). There are relays available in the Cerbo. I would also probably want a screen as well. There is a learning curve for sure but very good quality, nice remote monitoring and very flexible. Let us know what you end up doing. On Tue, Aug 20, 2024 at 9:04 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jay: > > > > I like the Control-by-web product line. It > is a Swiss Army Knife type system with many building blocks. Here > > is a project using the system. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Jay via RE-wrenches > Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2024 6:15 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Jay > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cell based monitoring > > > > Hi All > > > > I’ve got a client who has a large ranch and wants to monitor (via a web > and or app) and control ( simple on/off dry contact) some pumps and tanks > and maybe some water meters as well. > > There is cell service. > > He has web service at his house. > > > > Does anyone know of a place to start? > > > > Thanks in advance > > > > Jay > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Aug 20 14:33:13 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2024 12:33:13 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cell based monitoring In-Reply-To: References: <7ebf51c00db8335f692761b07ad33753@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8A5172AE-9E15-48D6-AB0C-DF4835884A59@gmail.com> I’ll check this and the control by web out. Thanks everyone jay > On Aug 20, 2024, at 9:28 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi Jay, > > Regarding Victron, it may still be useful. You can boot up the Cerbo with DC power, they have a DC powered cell modem (need to use SIM card from a carrier that is GSM (I've used T-Mobile). There are relays available in the Cerbo. I would also probably want a screen as well. There is a learning curve for sure but very good quality, nice remote monitoring and very flexible. > > Let us know what you end up doing. > > On Tue, Aug 20, 2024 at 9:04 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Jay: > > > I like the Control-by-web product line. It is a Swiss Army Knife type system with many building blocks. Here is a project using the system. > > > William Miller > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Jay via RE-wrenches > Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2024 6:15 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Jay > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cell based monitoring > > > Hi All > > > I’ve got a client who has a large ranch and wants to monitor (via a web and or app) and control ( simple on/off dry contact) some pumps and tanks and maybe some water meters as well. > > There is cell service. > > He has web service at his house. > > > Does anyone know of a place to start? > > > Thanks in advance > > > Jay > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Fri Aug 23 15:32:05 2024 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2024 15:32:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Print Pro Solar labels Message-ID: Hi All, Has anyone heard of Print Pro before? https://printproaz.com/ I got a cold call from them (and surprisingly actually picked it up). They are offering a $200 gift card, and their prices seem really cheap. It smells slightly scammy to me, but maybe they are just trying to get started. Their website does look legit. I am just curious if anyone has used them before. Thanks! -Dave -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Aug 24 14:31:55 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2024 14:31:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Coupling Message-ID: Hi all, Over the last three days I have had one of this infuriating and frustrating experiences with Sol-Ark where you talk to 3 people and get 10 different answers. At least I think I finally got the right one today. Here is the scenario and problem I was experiencing: At a (very) remote location that is a boat ride away, I have three 15K inverters paralleled in a 120/240V system, off-grid, generator connected to the grid input (but not being used). The PV array connected to the DC inputs totals 40kW split across the three inverters. There is a 9.7kW Enphase system (8.4kW AC inverter rating) connected on the load side of the inverter outputs. Massive battery - 110kWh. Everything has been working well for a couple of weeks since we got it set up. Then, over the last three days, we began experiencing unexpected shutdowns where the inverter would repeatedly stop inverting and PV would stop charging. There was usually no indication of errors on the screen. Everything was just stopped, but the inverters remained on. Sometimes they would restart once, only to shut down again relatively quickly. We had to manually restart the inverters with the ON/OFF buttons. Then we started getting various errors, with F50 being the strange one that is not documented. I reached Sol-Ark, and they said the F50 points to an AC input issue, but the generator was not on, so that didn't make sense. I was on my own to double-check all of the wiring. But there was also an F41 Parallel System Stop error, which pointed me to that suggested cause. I realized that one of the inverters had a -1725 COMM firmware, whereas the others had -1726. I don't know how that happened because I'm certain that I had them all on the same firmware at one time. Anyway, I spent all day yesterday trying to reach Sol-Ark and getting the firmware to match. I thought we had the issue resolved by the time I left, as I was able to run the system for an hour without a shutdown. Then I got a call at noon today from the owner. Same problem. System shut down. I was able to reach Sol-Ark immediately this time and the agent gave me a more plausible answer. He said the F50 error points to something wrong with the AC coupling. We started to put our heads together and I realized that this issue first popped up around mid-day on Thursday, and then repeated itself mid-day on Friday. Here we are again today, and I get the call at noon. It seems like the issue happens as soon as the batteries reach 100% capacity. It's like the Sol-Ark is not commanding the IQ8A microinverters to shut down. I had the owner shut off the AC coupling input breaker and I remotely unchecked the box for AC coupling on the load side. That seems to have resolved the issue. Ok, fine, but how do we resolve this (I asked Sol-Ark)? The "solution" I was offered is to move the AC coupled input to the GEN terminals. The problem is that I need to reserve the GEN terminals for an upcoming Smart Load subpanel. That's why I installed the AC coupling on the load side, which is a documented and accepted practice. I do have AC coupling working without issue on a grid-tied system at another location with dual Sol-Arks, but that is connected to the GEN terminals. This is the first time I have AC coupled on the load side. Has anyone successfully AC coupled on the load side, particularly with microinverters? I'm probably going to have to climb the customer service ladder at Sol-Ark to get a resolution for this, but I wanted to get some feedback in case someone has already been down this road. Thanks in advance, Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pieter at offgridenterprises.org Sat Aug 24 15:31:39 2024 From: pieter at offgridenterprises.org (pieter offgridenterprises.org) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2024 19:31:39 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Coupling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason, You might need some more sophisticated equipment to diagnose the problem. It is possible that the Enphase system is not responding correctly to the Solark frequency adjustments as the battery gets full. We use our power analyzer to diagnose these sorts of issues, The power analyzer is an expensive piece of equipment so not many installers use them. Depending on the ”grid tied inverter” brand and the loads being operated at the site all sorts of site-specific anomalies can occur. With Solark specifically sometimes enabling things like active power factor correction can help. I realize that at times AC coupling is the most viable solution but generally speaking we avoid it wherever possible. I have never witnessed AC coupled systems control the grid tied inverters in a proportional way, the systems I have witnessed operate in a stepped manner. If the site loads are less than the Enphase output capacity, and the batteries are at a high state of charge you can potentially have power factor issues and see the Enphase system output power swing up and down. If you monitor the system, it is possible that the Solark inverters are commanding the IQ8A inverters to reduce power and eventually shut down, but the Enphase system is not responding correctly. Have you looked to see if the Solark system is adjusting? If so, have you verified the Enphase system is responding ? If the battery voltage is staying within the limits, you set it is possible that the Enphase system is not responding, and the Inverter is shutting down to protect the batteries. Pieter Huebner Project Manager Off grid Enterprises From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2024 1:32 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jason Szumlanski Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Coupling Hi all, Over the last three days I have had one of this infuriating and frustrating experiences with Sol-Ark where you talk to 3 people and get 10 different answers. At least I think I finally got the right one today. Here is the scenario and problem I was experiencing: At a (very) remote location that is a boat ride away, I have three 15K inverters paralleled in a 120/240V system, off-grid, generator connected to the grid input (but not being used). The PV array connected to the DC inputs totals 40kW split across the three inverters. There is a 9.7kW Enphase system (8.4kW AC inverter rating) connected on the load side of the inverter outputs. Massive battery - 110kWh. Everything has been working well for a couple of weeks since we got it set up. Then, over the last three days, we began experiencing unexpected shutdowns where the inverter would repeatedly stop inverting and PV would stop charging. There was usually no indication of errors on the screen. Everything was just stopped, but the inverters remained on. Sometimes they would restart once, only to shut down again relatively quickly. We had to manually restart the inverters with the ON/OFF buttons. Then we started getting various errors, with F50 being the strange one that is not documented. I reached Sol-Ark, and they said the F50 points to an AC input issue, but the generator was not on, so that didn't make sense. I was on my own to double-check all of the wiring. But there was also an F41 Parallel System Stop error, which pointed me to that suggested cause. I realized that one of the inverters had a -1725 COMM firmware, whereas the others had -1726. I don't know how that happened because I'm certain that I had them all on the same firmware at one time. Anyway, I spent all day yesterday trying to reach Sol-Ark and getting the firmware to match. I thought we had the issue resolved by the time I left, as I was able to run the system for an hour without a shutdown. Then I got a call at noon today from the owner. Same problem. System shut down. I was able to reach Sol-Ark immediately this time and the agent gave me a more plausible answer. He said the F50 error points to something wrong with the AC coupling. We started to put our heads together and I realized that this issue first popped up around mid-day on Thursday, and then repeated itself mid-day on Friday. Here we are again today, and I get the call at noon. It seems like the issue happens as soon as the batteries reach 100% capacity. It's like the Sol-Ark is not commanding the IQ8A microinverters to shut down. I had the owner shut off the AC coupling input breaker and I remotely unchecked the box for AC coupling on the load side. That seems to have resolved the issue. Ok, fine, but how do we resolve this (I asked Sol-Ark)? The "solution" I was offered is to move the AC coupled input to the GEN terminals. The problem is that I need to reserve the GEN terminals for an upcoming Smart Load subpanel. That's why I installed the AC coupling on the load side, which is a documented and accepted practice. I do have AC coupling working without issue on a grid-tied system at another location with dual Sol-Arks, but that is connected to the GEN terminals. This is the first time I have AC coupled on the load side. Has anyone successfully AC coupled on the load side, particularly with microinverters? I'm probably going to have to climb the customer service ladder at Sol-Ark to get a resolution for this, but I wanted to get some feedback in case someone has already been down this road. Thanks in advance, Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Aug 24 17:07:21 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2024 17:07:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Coupling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good information. Thank you. I don't believe the Sol-Ark is capable of tapering AC coupled sources. It is either on or off. I know if you connect an AC coupled source to the GEN input(s) you can change the set points for when AC coupling starts and stops based on battery voltage or state of charge. However, it is unclear how these inverters manage AC coupled sources when connected on the load side. It does not appear to be documented when the inverter will shift the frequency to turn off the AC coupled source when it is connected on the load side. Anyway, I think I'm going to go ahead and move the AC coupled source to the GEN terminals. This will provide more positive control hopefully where I can shut down the AC coupled source when the battery reaches 90% state of charge and turns back on when it dips below 70% or 80%. If I need to put a smart load panel in, I can rig up a custom solution with a voltage sensitive relay and contactor feeding a subpanel. The only smart load capability I am looking for is to limit golf cart charging and operation of a specific air conditioning unit when battery capacity is low. It should be pretty easy to put something together to drop those loads when necessary. It would be great if these inverters had low voltage auxiliary relays to handle this logic. Jason On Sat, Aug 24, 2024, 3:32 PM pieter offgridenterprises.org via RE-wrenches wrote: > Jason, You might need some more sophisticated equipment to diagnose the > problem. It is possible that the Enphase system is not responding correctly > to the Solark frequency adjustments as the battery gets full. We use our > power analyzer to diagnose these sorts of issues, The power analyzer is an > expensive piece of equipment so not many installers use them. Depending on > the ”grid tied inverter” brand and the loads being operated at the site all > sorts of site-specific anomalies can occur. With Solark specifically > sometimes enabling things like active power factor correction can help. I > realize that at times AC coupling is the most viable solution but generally > speaking we avoid it wherever possible. I have never witnessed AC coupled > systems control the grid tied inverters in a proportional way, the systems > I have witnessed operate in a stepped manner. If the site loads are less > than the Enphase output capacity, and the batteries are at a high state of > charge you can potentially have power factor issues and see the Enphase > system output power swing up and down. > > If you monitor the system, it is possible that the Solark > inverters are commanding the IQ8A inverters to reduce power and eventually > shut down, but the Enphase system is not responding correctly. Have you > looked to see if the Solark system is adjusting? If so, have you verified > the Enphase system is responding ? If the battery voltage is staying within > the limits, you set it is possible that the Enphase system is not > responding, and the Inverter is shutting down to protect the batteries. > > Pieter Huebner > > Project Manager > > Off grid Enterprises > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Saturday, August 24, 2024 1:32 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Coupling > > > > Hi all, > > > > Over the last three days I have had one of this infuriating and > frustrating experiences with Sol-Ark where you talk to 3 people and get 10 > different answers. At least I think I finally got the right one today. Here > is the scenario and problem I was experiencing: > > > > At a (very) remote location that is a boat ride away, I have three 15K > inverters paralleled in a 120/240V system, off-grid, generator connected to > the grid input (but not being used). The PV array connected to the DC > inputs totals 40kW split across the three inverters. There is a 9.7kW > Enphase system (8.4kW AC inverter rating) connected on the load side of the > inverter outputs. Massive battery - 110kWh. Everything has been working > well for a couple of weeks since we got it set up. > > > > Then, over the last three days, we began experiencing unexpected shutdowns > where the inverter would repeatedly stop inverting and PV would stop > charging. There was usually no indication of errors on the screen. > Everything was just stopped, but the inverters remained on. Sometimes they > would restart once, only to shut down again relatively quickly. We had to > manually restart the inverters with the ON/OFF buttons. Then we started > getting various errors, with F50 being the strange one that is not > documented. I reached Sol-Ark, and they said the F50 points to an AC input > issue, but the generator was not on, so that didn't make sense. I was on my > own to double-check all of the wiring. > > > > But there was also an F41 Parallel System Stop error, which pointed me to > that suggested cause. I realized that one of the inverters had a -1725 COMM > firmware, whereas the others had -1726. I don't know how that happened > because I'm certain that I had them all on the same firmware at one time. > Anyway, I spent all day yesterday trying to reach Sol-Ark and getting the > firmware to match. I thought we had the issue resolved by the time I > left, as I was able to run the system for an hour without a shutdown. > > > > Then I got a call at noon today from the owner. Same problem. System shut > down. > > > > I was able to reach Sol-Ark immediately this time and the agent gave me a > more plausible answer. He said the F50 error points to something wrong with > the AC coupling. We started to put our heads together and I realized that > this issue first popped up around mid-day on Thursday, and then repeated > itself mid-day on Friday. Here we are again today, and I get the call at > noon. It seems like the issue happens as soon as the batteries reach 100% > capacity. It's like the Sol-Ark is not commanding the IQ8A microinverters > to shut down. I had the owner shut off the AC coupling input breaker and I > remotely unchecked the box for AC coupling on the load side. That seems to > have resolved the issue. > > > > Ok, fine, but how do we resolve this (I asked Sol-Ark)? The "solution" I > was offered is to move the AC coupled input to the GEN terminals. The > problem is that I need to reserve the GEN terminals for an upcoming Smart > Load subpanel. That's why I installed the AC coupling on the load side, > which is a documented and accepted practice. > > > > I do have AC coupling working without issue on a grid-tied system at > another location with dual Sol-Arks, but that is connected to the GEN > terminals. This is the first time I have AC coupled on the load side. Has > anyone successfully AC coupled on the load side, particularly with > microinverters? > > > > I'm probably going to have to climb the customer service ladder at Sol-Ark > to get a resolution for this, but I wanted to get some feedback in case > someone has already been down this road. > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Sat Aug 24 17:43:30 2024 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2024 17:43:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Coupling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001daf66e$a9502bd0$fbf08370$@mindspring.com> Jason Have recently had some similar issues. Ac coupling for the Sol-Ark really need to be on the gen inputs and I am told that Sol-Ark does do frequency shift on the gen inputs if needed. There is a programing button to turn it on, on one of the screens Please check to make sure all of your Sol-Arks have the same software / firmware . If they are not the same units will shut off. Had a situation that took multiple visits and multiple techs that turned out to be this. Good luck with it, should work fine one you move the outputs of your solar to the gen inputs. Peter Giroux American Solar From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2024 5:07 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jason Szumlanski Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Coupling Good information. Thank you. I don't believe the Sol-Ark is capable of tapering AC coupled sources. It is either on or off. I know if you connect an AC coupled source to the GEN input(s) you can change the set points for when AC coupling starts and stops based on battery voltage or state of charge. However, it is unclear how these inverters manage AC coupled sources when connected on the load side. It does not appear to be documented when the inverter will shift the frequency to turn off the AC coupled source when it is connected on the load side. Anyway, I think I'm going to go ahead and move the AC coupled source to the GEN terminals. This will provide more positive control hopefully where I can shut down the AC coupled source when the battery reaches 90% state of charge and turns back on when it dips below 70% or 80%. If I need to put a smart load panel in, I can rig up a custom solution with a voltage sensitive relay and contactor feeding a subpanel. The only smart load capability I am looking for is to limit golf cart charging and operation of a specific air conditioning unit when battery capacity is low. It should be pretty easy to put something together to drop those loads when necessary. It would be great if these inverters had low voltage auxiliary relays to handle this logic. Jason On Sat, Aug 24, 2024, 3:32 PM pieter offgridenterprises.org via RE-wrenches > wrote: Jason, You might need some more sophisticated equipment to diagnose the problem. It is possible that the Enphase system is not responding correctly to the Solark frequency adjustments as the battery gets full. We use our power analyzer to diagnose these sorts of issues, The power analyzer is an expensive piece of equipment so not many installers use them. Depending on the ”grid tied inverter” brand and the loads being operated at the site all sorts of site-specific anomalies can occur. With Solark specifically sometimes enabling things like active power factor correction can help. I realize that at times AC coupling is the most viable solution but generally speaking we avoid it wherever possible. I have never witnessed AC coupled systems control the grid tied inverters in a proportional way, the systems I have witnessed operate in a stepped manner. If the site loads are less than the Enphase output capacity, and the batteries are at a high state of charge you can potentially have power factor issues and see the Enphase system output power swing up and down. If you monitor the system, it is possible that the Solark inverters are commanding the IQ8A inverters to reduce power and eventually shut down, but the Enphase system is not responding correctly. Have you looked to see if the Solark system is adjusting? If so, have you verified the Enphase system is responding ? If the battery voltage is staying within the limits, you set it is possible that the Enphase system is not responding, and the Inverter is shutting down to protect the batteries. Pieter Huebner Project Manager Off grid Enterprises From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2024 1:32 PM To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Jason Szumlanski > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Coupling Hi all, Over the last three days I have had one of this infuriating and frustrating experiences with Sol-Ark where you talk to 3 people and get 10 different answers. At least I think I finally got the right one today. Here is the scenario and problem I was experiencing: At a (very) remote location that is a boat ride away, I have three 15K inverters paralleled in a 120/240V system, off-grid, generator connected to the grid input (but not being used). The PV array connected to the DC inputs totals 40kW split across the three inverters. There is a 9.7kW Enphase system (8.4kW AC inverter rating) connected on the load side of the inverter outputs. Massive battery - 110kWh. Everything has been working well for a couple of weeks since we got it set up. Then, over the last three days, we began experiencing unexpected shutdowns where the inverter would repeatedly stop inverting and PV would stop charging. There was usually no indication of errors on the screen. Everything was just stopped, but the inverters remained on. Sometimes they would restart once, only to shut down again relatively quickly. We had to manually restart the inverters with the ON/OFF buttons. Then we started getting various errors, with F50 being the strange one that is not documented. I reached Sol-Ark, and they said the F50 points to an AC input issue, but the generator was not on, so that didn't make sense. I was on my own to double-check all of the wiring. But there was also an F41 Parallel System Stop error, which pointed me to that suggested cause. I realized that one of the inverters had a -1725 COMM firmware, whereas the others had -1726. I don't know how that happened because I'm certain that I had them all on the same firmware at one time. Anyway, I spent all day yesterday trying to reach Sol-Ark and getting the firmware to match. I thought we had the issue resolved by the time I left, as I was able to run the system for an hour without a shutdown. Then I got a call at noon today from the owner. Same problem. System shut down. I was able to reach Sol-Ark immediately this time and the agent gave me a more plausible answer. He said the F50 error points to something wrong with the AC coupling. We started to put our heads together and I realized that this issue first popped up around mid-day on Thursday, and then repeated itself mid-day on Friday. Here we are again today, and I get the call at noon. It seems like the issue happens as soon as the batteries reach 100% capacity. It's like the Sol-Ark is not commanding the IQ8A microinverters to shut down. I had the owner shut off the AC coupling input breaker and I remotely unchecked the box for AC coupling on the load side. That seems to have resolved the issue. Ok, fine, but how do we resolve this (I asked Sol-Ark)? The "solution" I was offered is to move the AC coupled input to the GEN terminals. The problem is that I need to reserve the GEN terminals for an upcoming Smart Load subpanel. That's why I installed the AC coupling on the load side, which is a documented and accepted practice. I do have AC coupling working without issue on a grid-tied system at another location with dual Sol-Arks, but that is connected to the GEN terminals. This is the first time I have AC coupled on the load side. Has anyone successfully AC coupled on the load side, particularly with microinverters? I'm probably going to have to climb the customer service ladder at Sol-Ark to get a resolution for this, but I wanted to get some feedback in case someone has already been down this road. Thanks in advance, Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirpal at oregonsolarworks.com Sat Aug 24 19:26:13 2024 From: kirpal at oregonsolarworks.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2024 16:26:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Coupling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason... We had a similar situation with a dual SolArk 15K system. After approximately an hour of turning system on we would get the F41 error on the master ‐ the slave inverter would show an error and then the master would shut down with the paralleling error F41 because the slave inverter had shown an error related to a neutral ground bond in more than one place detected.. we confirmed there was not more than one neutral/ground bond in the system. It didn't seem to matter which loads or total power levels it kept shutting down with the same pattern. They had us revert both firmwares back to the 925 version instead of 926. Same problem still with either firmware version. Finally we disconnected the slave and ran the master on its own- like magic - Problem solved. Upon close inspection we noticed that the slave unit had different color PV input terminals than the master. There were different capacitors up above the AC in/out terminals and some adittional circuitry we guessed related to a rapid shutdown heartbeat signal for the solar circuits. Turns out the inverters were different vintages of the same model of 15K-2P inverter but the boxes they shipped in were the same part numbers- but there were obvious differences in the physical build and circuitry. We pointed this out and they agreed to send us a replacement inverter of the same vintage as the master... This solved the f41 paralleling issue we were having. They also said the 925 firmware was better for all the inverters to be on in multi inverter systems versus the more sensitive (and newer) 926 firmware. We havent had an issue since matching vintages of inverter build were used. Look carefully at all three inverters and make sure they are physically the same build version. It was a frustrating detective experience and we bore the costs associated with replacing the inverter. If that is a facet of your system I would ask them to replace your inverter(s) to be the same build vintage. It solved the problem for us but was a long battle with tech support to seluth out the problem and to get them to agree to swap inverters. Good luck and keep us posted on your resolution. Thanks. Kirpal Oregon Solarworks On Sat, Aug 24, 2024, 11:32 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi all, > > Over the last three days I have had one of this infuriating and > frustrating experiences with Sol-Ark where you talk to 3 people and get 10 > different answers. At least I think I finally got the right one today. Here > is the scenario and problem I was experiencing: > > At a (very) remote location that is a boat ride away, I have three 15K > inverters paralleled in a 120/240V system, off-grid, generator connected to > the grid input (but not being used). The PV array connected to the DC > inputs totals 40kW split across the three inverters. There is a 9.7kW > Enphase system (8.4kW AC inverter rating) connected on the load side of the > inverter outputs. Massive battery - 110kWh. Everything has been working > well for a couple of weeks since we got it set up. > > Then, over the last three days, we began experiencing unexpected shutdowns > where the inverter would repeatedly stop inverting and PV would stop > charging. There was usually no indication of errors on the screen. > Everything was just stopped, but the inverters remained on. Sometimes they > would restart once, only to shut down again relatively quickly. We had to > manually restart the inverters with the ON/OFF buttons. Then we started > getting various errors, with F50 being the strange one that is not > documented. I reached Sol-Ark, and they said the F50 points to an AC input > issue, but the generator was not on, so that didn't make sense. I was on my > own to double-check all of the wiring. > > But there was also an F41 Parallel System Stop error, which pointed me to > that suggested cause. I realized that one of the inverters had a -1725 COMM > firmware, whereas the others had -1726. I don't know how that happened > because I'm certain that I had them all on the same firmware at one time. > Anyway, I spent all day yesterday trying to reach Sol-Ark and getting the > firmware to match. I thought we had the issue resolved by the time I > left, as I was able to run the system for an hour without a shutdown. > > Then I got a call at noon today from the owner. Same problem. System shut > down. > > I was able to reach Sol-Ark immediately this time and the agent gave me a > more plausible answer. He said the F50 error points to something wrong with > the AC coupling. We started to put our heads together and I realized that > this issue first popped up around mid-day on Thursday, and then repeated > itself mid-day on Friday. Here we are again today, and I get the call at > noon. It seems like the issue happens as soon as the batteries reach 100% > capacity. It's like the Sol-Ark is not commanding the IQ8A microinverters > to shut down. I had the owner shut off the AC coupling input breaker and I > remotely unchecked the box for AC coupling on the load side. That seems to > have resolved the issue. > > Ok, fine, but how do we resolve this (I asked Sol-Ark)? The "solution" I > was offered is to move the AC coupled input to the GEN terminals. The > problem is that I need to reserve the GEN terminals for an upcoming Smart > Load subpanel. That's why I installed the AC coupling on the load side, > which is a documented and accepted practice. > > I do have AC coupling working without issue on a grid-tied system at > another location with dual Sol-Arks, but that is connected to the GEN > terminals. This is the first time I have AC coupled on the load side. Has > anyone successfully AC coupled on the load side, particularly with > microinverters? > > I'm probably going to have to climb the customer service ladder at Sol-Ark > to get a resolution for this, but I wanted to get some feedback in case > someone has already been down this road. > > Thanks in advance, > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Aug 24 20:02:48 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2024 20:02:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Coupling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Kirpal, This is hugely helpful. More than you can imagine. I actually brought this up with tech support because two of the inverters have Savant insignia on them. The first slave inverter does not have this insignia. I did not supply these inverters, as the customer already had them from another contractor who was fired from the job. I do not know the supply chain origin or the timing of receipt of these inverters. I was told by tech support that it doesn't matter because what matters is the firmware version. But I am skeptical. Incidentally, the slave one inverter was the one that would show the F41 fault in red on the display, but the others did not. That said, the fault was sometimes recorded in the system alarms log on the others as well. It is another thing to consider in this investigation. I think the issue is with the AC coupling, but if the issue persists with AC coupling turned off, I will pursue this avenue of inverter hardware mismatch in the diagnostic process. It's entirely possible that these inverters are all identical and the Savant labeling is irrelevant, but I appreciate your input. I did not have the luxury of shutting down the two slave inverters because this system is powering a three bedroom single family home plus six cottages, and the base load is roughly 5,000W with seven air conditioners on site, plus well and pressure pumps, refrigeration, and much more. The master alone cannot handle the surge required for everything. In fact, this is actually a four inverter system with the 4th inverter about to come online. It was previously powering a construction shed. I am hesitant to parallel in the 4th inverter until this issue is resolved with the three inverters already in service. I have been in contact with my sales person at Sol-Ark about the technical support issues I experienced. It is no secret that I have been a strong advocate of Enphase in this forum. While their first tier technical support team doesn't always have the answers, I always have direct access to the engineering team, having made deep contacts over the last 15 years installing their products. I try to reserve my contacts with them to serious issues because I know they're busy. But at least they are accessible. With Sol-Ark and other brands, it seems like we are on our own to resolve many technical issues, and escalating issues isn't easy at all. The winners in the inverter manufacturing game are going to be the ones that provide stellar support for their dealer networks. We will see who rises to the top. These forum discussions are very productive in steering solar professionals toward products they can reliably support over the long term. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Sat, Aug 24, 2024, 7:28 PM Kirpal Khalsa via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jason... > We had a similar situation with a dual SolArk 15K system. After > approximately an hour of turning system on we would get the F41 error on > the master ‐ the slave inverter would show an error and then the master > would shut down with the paralleling error F41 because the slave inverter > had shown an error related to a neutral ground bond in more than one place > detected.. we confirmed there was not more than one neutral/ground bond in > the system. It didn't seem to matter which loads or total power levels it > kept shutting down with the same pattern. > They had us revert both firmwares back to the 925 version instead of 926. > Same problem still with either firmware version. > Finally we disconnected the slave and ran the master on its own- like > magic - Problem solved. > Upon close inspection we noticed that the slave unit had different color > PV input terminals than the master. There were different capacitors up > above the AC in/out terminals and some adittional circuitry we guessed > related to a rapid shutdown heartbeat signal for the solar circuits. > Turns out the inverters were different vintages of the same model of > 15K-2P inverter but the boxes they shipped in were the same part numbers- > but there were obvious differences in the physical build and circuitry. > We pointed this out and they agreed to send us a replacement inverter of > the same vintage as the master... > This solved the f41 paralleling issue we were having. They also said the > 925 firmware was better for all the inverters to be on in multi inverter > systems versus the more sensitive (and newer) 926 firmware. We havent had > an issue since matching vintages of inverter build were used. > Look carefully at all three inverters and make sure they are physically > the same build version. > It was a frustrating detective experience and we bore the costs associated > with replacing the inverter. > If that is a facet of your system I would ask them to replace your > inverter(s) to be the same build vintage. It solved the problem for us but > was a long battle with tech support to seluth out the problem and to get > them to agree to swap inverters. > Good luck and keep us posted on your resolution. > Thanks. > Kirpal > Oregon Solarworks > > > > > On Sat, Aug 24, 2024, 11:32 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> Over the last three days I have had one of this infuriating and >> frustrating experiences with Sol-Ark where you talk to 3 people and get 10 >> different answers. At least I think I finally got the right one today. Here >> is the scenario and problem I was experiencing: >> >> At a (very) remote location that is a boat ride away, I have three 15K >> inverters paralleled in a 120/240V system, off-grid, generator connected to >> the grid input (but not being used). The PV array connected to the DC >> inputs totals 40kW split across the three inverters. There is a 9.7kW >> Enphase system (8.4kW AC inverter rating) connected on the load side of the >> inverter outputs. Massive battery - 110kWh. Everything has been working >> well for a couple of weeks since we got it set up. >> >> Then, over the last three days, we began experiencing unexpected >> shutdowns where the inverter would repeatedly stop inverting and PV would >> stop charging. There was usually no indication of errors on the screen. >> Everything was just stopped, but the inverters remained on. Sometimes they >> would restart once, only to shut down again relatively quickly. We had to >> manually restart the inverters with the ON/OFF buttons. Then we started >> getting various errors, with F50 being the strange one that is not >> documented. I reached Sol-Ark, and they said the F50 points to an AC input >> issue, but the generator was not on, so that didn't make sense. I was on my >> own to double-check all of the wiring. >> >> But there was also an F41 Parallel System Stop error, which pointed me to >> that suggested cause. I realized that one of the inverters had a -1725 COMM >> firmware, whereas the others had -1726. I don't know how that happened >> because I'm certain that I had them all on the same firmware at one time. >> Anyway, I spent all day yesterday trying to reach Sol-Ark and getting the >> firmware to match. I thought we had the issue resolved by the time I >> left, as I was able to run the system for an hour without a shutdown. >> >> Then I got a call at noon today from the owner. Same problem. System shut >> down. >> >> I was able to reach Sol-Ark immediately this time and the agent gave me a >> more plausible answer. He said the F50 error points to something wrong with >> the AC coupling. We started to put our heads together and I realized that >> this issue first popped up around mid-day on Thursday, and then repeated >> itself mid-day on Friday. Here we are again today, and I get the call at >> noon. It seems like the issue happens as soon as the batteries reach 100% >> capacity. It's like the Sol-Ark is not commanding the IQ8A microinverters >> to shut down. I had the owner shut off the AC coupling input breaker and I >> remotely unchecked the box for AC coupling on the load side. That seems to >> have resolved the issue. >> >> Ok, fine, but how do we resolve this (I asked Sol-Ark)? The "solution" I >> was offered is to move the AC coupled input to the GEN terminals. The >> problem is that I need to reserve the GEN terminals for an upcoming Smart >> Load subpanel. That's why I installed the AC coupling on the load side, >> which is a documented and accepted practice. >> >> I do have AC coupling working without issue on a grid-tied system at >> another location with dual Sol-Arks, but that is connected to the GEN >> terminals. This is the first time I have AC coupled on the load side. Has >> anyone successfully AC coupled on the load side, particularly with >> microinverters? >> >> I'm probably going to have to climb the customer service ladder at >> Sol-Ark to get a resolution for this, but I wanted to get some feedback >> in case someone has already been down this road. >> >> Thanks in advance, >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Sat Aug 24 21:12:02 2024 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2024 18:12:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Coupling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: last year SolArk tech support told me only the Gen ports have the freq/volt modulation, and only when you program the master “AC Couple on GEN” -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Aug 24 21:24:50 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2024 21:24:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Coupling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's interesting on two fronts. I believe the documentation says you can AC couple when off-grid with load side interconnected inverters. It would have to have some mechanism to turn off AC coupled sources for that to work. And it also says there is no modulation and it's on or off only. Strangely, when you have AC coupled on load side selected, the voltage/SOC setpoints are grayed out. The setpoints are only configurable when AC coupling on GEN is selected. We all know how poor their documentation is. I guess we can't expect customer support to know how anything works if they can't even document functionality accurately. On Sat, Aug 24, 2024, 9:12 PM david quattro wrote: > last year SolArk tech support told me only the Gen ports have the > freq/volt modulation, and only when you program the master “AC Couple on > GEN” -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Sat Aug 24 22:40:10 2024 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2024 19:40:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K AC Coupling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry I just noticed that you’re dealing with 15Ks. My scenario was with a 12K -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Mon Aug 26 17:37:32 2024 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2024 16:37:32 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Beware of Lumos Solar - recalled Vision S modules seemingly last in priority for replacement Message-ID: <03df01daf800$2908c520$7b1a4f60$@solarcentex.com> Afternoon wrenches. For those who use or are considering Lumos for special applications like covered awning, pergolas, and carports, be aware of their actions after recalling modules because of an unsafe junction box design. In Apreil they recalled for first time I experienced in 12-yrs, a recall and "turn off / do not use recall of effect modules. Mistakes happen, but delaying replacement module deliveries while still fulfilling orders for new customers is tough pill to swallow. July turned to August for replacement but today, that has now extended to November. My email response is below: "Waiting until November is horrible. These modules should have been delivered from immediately incoming modules, even if new projects were advised they would incur some delay. To put recall modules at the end of what appears to be a very long line for a July delivery was a poor choice. To have that shift into August was understandable, but frustrating. Now to be told November now is really bad. There is no excuse for this when other modules are being provided to others. Here is what it looks like on my end - Lumos chose to anger just a few customers rather than frustrate many by making their deliveries shift by weeks to cover the recall module replacements. It looks like shifting by months for those of us on recall was deemed to be a lesser cost to Lumos overall, but it seems to me that when a company has a safety recall, it's top priority should be to make right its error. Instead, Lumos has multiplied its error by a poor decision to put the recall replacements at the end of this delivery line. Surely you have delivered modules between notification of the recall and today. I have read through this warranty. It covers "defects in materials and workmanship" but what you have here is a more substantial design deficiency. You didn't just provide a module that delaminated or some other deficiency, but in fact have provided modules that you state are unsafe to use. I expect these modules to be replaced sooner than November. If it is the position of Lumos that it will not replace these modules sooner than November, and provide my full costs to remove and reinstall these modules (which is $13,125) and reimburse for lost solar production (calculated today at 8-months of zero production resulting in missed value of $1,785 to date), then please forward my response here to your CEO (Scott Franklin?) and I'll send his final answer to my attorney to seek maximum reimbursement allowed under the law. It really should not have come to this. If Lumos has prioritized addressing its quality control deficiency which led to a safety recall immediately, installers like me would have understood a 2-3 month delay. November is wholly unacceptable. Please provide me the name of your CEO and President." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 136365 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Aug 27 11:06:25 2024 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2024 11:06:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Red Lion Pumps Message-ID: <430f6d11a8436c0f0ae8710c025fb682@redwoodalliance.org> I am looking at a Red Lion, 1/2 HP soft start pump for an off grid system. Does anyone have experience with Red Lion pumps? https://www.waterpumpsdirect.com/Red-Lion-RL12G05-3W2V-Water-Pump/p7506.html This pump will be used in a cistern. What is the best soft start submersible to run off of an inverter? Thank you, Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Aug 27 11:16:52 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2024 09:16:52 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Red Lion Pumps In-Reply-To: <430f6d11a8436c0f0ae8710c025fb682@redwoodalliance.org> References: <430f6d11a8436c0f0ae8710c025fb682@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <59F3AF9F-23C8-4518-8458-259E1924A94C@gmail.com> Hi Drake What makes you say think it’s a soft start? 3 wire isn’t a soft start. It does have a reduced start load but not soft start. I’d go with a grundfos sq. Jay > On Aug 27, 2024, at 9:08 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > I am looking at a Red Lion, 1/2 HP soft start pump for an off grid system. Does anyone have experience with Red Lion pumps? > > https://www.waterpumpsdirect.com/Red-Lion-RL12G05-3W2V-Water-Pump/p7506.html > > This pump will be used in a cistern. > > What is the best soft start submersible to run off of an inverter? > > > Thank you, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > Athens Electric LLC > > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Tue Aug 27 16:02:59 2024 From: frenergy at psln.com (Bill Battagin) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2024 13:02:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OB Radian / FM60 grid tie mystery In-Reply-To: References: <9FD6DF6F-490B-4E56-BB68-C20779780E6D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Wrenches,             We have a customer with older (circa 2008) SMA SB5000US that seems to have failed.  Zonna is not an option, none in stock. You Love Solar wants $4K+ (with tax,and shipping) but we have a new SMA SB6.0-1SP-US-40 in a dusty box in stock. Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, owner 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) CA. C10 Lic # 874049 Solar Powered since 1982 Home of the Sunny Side Up -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Aug 27 16:02:38 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2024 14:02:38 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Shutdown? Message-ID: <7ce19d1d-e13f-478c-9db4-1e38b4cc2697@solarray.com> Greetings All; I have Fortress Battery installation with a pair of E Vault batteries set up in a Master/ Slave arrangement.  Its been working fine for over a year, but the customer just had a complete shutdown of the batteries which left multiple freezers, and refrigerator with rotting food.   When he rebooted the batteries by turning on/off the main breaker on each, they both come up and showed 100% SOC on the Master, and 98% on the other.    There were no fault codes.   I just recently installed a larger PV array, and so the system has been reaching full charge every morning. I have multiple calls in to Fortress, but not hearing anything back from them at all.  We did have a lightning surge event a few months ago, that damaged a Midnite SPD (first ever for me), and took out the control board on the generator.  One VFX inverter has an LED out, but we only use two inverters of the Quad stack, so I just switched to another inverter.  All other equipment appeared fine: Midnite controllers, rest of the Outback VFX quad stack, and never any issues seen with the Fortress batteries. The other odd thing, is since he rebooted the batteries, the system is working fine, and recharging to 100%  by 9:30 am as before.    Is it possible the Fortress BMS were damaged and are now having an intermittent shutdown issue?  I did ask him to temporarily disconnect the comms between batteries, in case it is a bad BMS on one, it will isolate it from the other. This is a tough one to figure out, since it hasn't happened again, and there are no fault codes.  The Mate 3 shows a low frequency AC code, but that's usually just from the generator shutting down.    Any help, ideas, experiences, would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Ray Walters Remote Solar From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Aug 27 16:35:04 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2024 13:35:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Shutdown? In-Reply-To: <7ce19d1d-e13f-478c-9db4-1e38b4cc2697@solarray.com> References: <7ce19d1d-e13f-478c-9db4-1e38b4cc2697@solarray.com> Message-ID: <73b67fe1b3d521cc295be424ab132127@sti.net> When I have had someone lose an SPD (I assume it was on DC buss) there is often latent damage (shows up later) to many of the devices. In a Hi Rel mode, it is recommended to replace it all. Most offgrid is not that critical but try telling that to someone with rotten food. The freezers and reefers are often full of spoils that smells never go away. YUK ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-08-27 1:02 pm, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > Greetings All; > > I have Fortress Battery installation with a pair of E Vault batteries > set up in a Master/ Slave arrangement. Its been working fine for over > a year, but the customer just had a complete shutdown of the batteries > which left multiple freezers, and refrigerator with rotting food. > When he rebooted the batteries by turning on/off the main breaker on > each, they both come up and showed 100% SOC on the Master, and 98% on > the other. There were no fault codes. I just recently installed a > larger PV array, and so the system has been reaching full charge every > morning. > > I have multiple calls in to Fortress, but not hearing anything back > from them at all. We did have a lightning surge event a few months > ago, that damaged a Midnite SPD (first ever for me), and took out the > control board on the generator. One VFX inverter has an LED out, but > we only use two inverters of the Quad stack, so I just switched to > another inverter. All other equipment appeared fine: Midnite > controllers, rest of the Outback VFX quad stack, and never any issues > seen with the Fortress batteries. > > The other odd thing, is since he rebooted the batteries, the system is > working fine, and recharging to 100% by 9:30 am as before. Is it > possible the Fortress BMS were damaged and are now having an > intermittent shutdown issue? I did ask him to temporarily disconnect > the comms between batteries, in case it is a bad BMS on one, it will > isolate it from the other. > > This is a tough one to figure out, since it hasn't happened again, and > there are no fault codes. The Mate 3 shows a low frequency AC code, > but that's usually just from the generator shutting down. Any help, > ideas, experiences, would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Aug 27 16:51:45 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2024 14:51:45 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Shutdown? In-Reply-To: <73b67fe1b3d521cc295be424ab132127@sti.net> References: <7ce19d1d-e13f-478c-9db4-1e38b4cc2697@solarray.com> <73b67fe1b3d521cc295be424ab132127@sti.net> Message-ID: The SPD was on one of the PV inputs before it came into the house.  There were two Classics, each fed with its own PV input and SPD.  It actually caused an underground splice to fail (high resistance) which I replaced the splice and restored full voltage, and both Classics were working fine.  Just seems unlikely ( but not impossible) that the surge would make it past the Classic without damage, but then damage the Fortress BMS in an otherwise imperceptible manner.   That is our current best theory at the moment though.   I added an SPD on the 48 v buss, before this latest total shutdown. Ray Walters On 8/27/2024 2:35 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > When I have had someone lose an SPD (I assume it was on DC buss) there > is often latent damage (shows up later) to many of the devices.  In a > Hi Rel mode, it is recommended to replace it all. Most offgrid is not > that critical but try telling that to someone with rotten food. > The freezers and reefers are often full of spoils that smells never go > away. YUK ! > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2024-08-27 1:02 pm, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> Greetings All; >> >> I have Fortress Battery installation with a pair of E Vault batteries >> set up in a Master/ Slave arrangement.  Its been working fine for >> over a year, but the customer just had a complete shutdown of the >> batteries which left multiple freezers, and refrigerator with rotting >> food.   When he rebooted the batteries by turning on/off the main >> breaker on each, they both come up and showed 100% SOC on the Master, >> and 98% on the other.    There were no fault codes.   I just recently >> installed a larger PV array, and so the system has been reaching full >> charge every morning. >> >> I have multiple calls in to Fortress, but not hearing anything back >> from them at all.  We did have a lightning surge event a few months >> ago, that damaged a Midnite SPD (first ever for me), and took out the >> control board on the generator.  One VFX inverter has an LED out, but >> we only use two inverters of the Quad stack, so I just switched to >> another inverter.  All other equipment appeared fine: Midnite >> controllers, rest of the Outback VFX quad stack, and never any issues >> seen with the Fortress batteries. >> >> The other odd thing, is since he rebooted the batteries, the system >> is working fine, and recharging to 100%  by 9:30 am as before.    Is >> it possible the Fortress BMS were damaged and are now having an >> intermittent shutdown issue?  I did ask him to temporarily disconnect >> the comms between batteries, in case it is a bad BMS on one, it will >> isolate it from the other. >> >> This is a tough one to figure out, since it hasn't happened again, >> and there are no fault codes.  The Mate 3 shows a low frequency AC >> code, but that's usually just from the generator shutting down.    >> Any help, ideas, experiences, would be greatly appreciated. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Aug 27 17:46:19 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2024 15:46:19 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Shutdown? In-Reply-To: References: <7ce19d1d-e13f-478c-9db4-1e38b4cc2697@solarray.com> <73b67fe1b3d521cc295be424ab132127@sti.net> Message-ID: <8874459D-456F-4B57-AD14-281425B0530E@gmail.com> I have a buddy in tech support at Fortress. I asked him and he said that elevated absorb volts above 55.2 could cause this situation. And then the power cycle would reboot the BMS. I am presuming its open loop, and the fact you mentioned that there was more PV and then the shut down sure might be connected. You might check the charge voltages/time to make sure they are correct and I can’t remember if the classic has battery sense wire connections. jay > On Aug 27, 2024, at 2:51 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > > The SPD was on one of the PV inputs before it came into the house. There were two Classics, each fed with its own PV input and SPD. It actually caused an underground splice to fail (high resistance) which I replaced the splice and restored full voltage, and both Classics were working fine. Just seems unlikely ( but not impossible) that the surge would make it past the Classic without damage, but then damage the Fortress BMS in an otherwise imperceptible manner. That is our current best theory at the moment though. I added an SPD on the 48 v buss, before this latest total shutdown. > > Ray Walters > > On 8/27/2024 2:35 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: >> When I have had someone lose an SPD (I assume it was on DC buss) there is often latent damage (shows up later) to many of the devices. In a Hi Rel mode, it is recommended to replace it all. Most offgrid is not that critical but try telling that to someone with rotten food. >> >> The freezers and reefers are often full of spoils that smells never go away. YUK ! >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >> >> On 2024-08-27 1:02 pm, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >>> Greetings All; >>> >>> I have Fortress Battery installation with a pair of E Vault batteries set up in a Master/ Slave arrangement. Its been working fine for over a year, but the customer just had a complete shutdown of the batteries which left multiple freezers, and refrigerator with rotting food. When he rebooted the batteries by turning on/off the main breaker on each, they both come up and showed 100% SOC on the Master, and 98% on the other. There were no fault codes. I just recently installed a larger PV array, and so the system has been reaching full charge every morning. >>> >>> I have multiple calls in to Fortress, but not hearing anything back from them at all. We did have a lightning surge event a few months ago, that damaged a Midnite SPD (first ever for me), and took out the control board on the generator. One VFX inverter has an LED out, but we only use two inverters of the Quad stack, so I just switched to another inverter. All other equipment appeared fine: Midnite controllers, rest of the Outback VFX quad stack, and never any issues seen with the Fortress batteries. >>> >>> The other odd thing, is since he rebooted the batteries, the system is working fine, and recharging to 100% by 9:30 am as before. Is it possible the Fortress BMS were damaged and are now having an intermittent shutdown issue? I did ask him to temporarily disconnect the comms between batteries, in case it is a bad BMS on one, it will isolate it from the other. >>> >>> This is a tough one to figure out, since it hasn't happened again, and there are no fault codes. The Mate 3 shows a low frequency AC code, but that's usually just from the generator shutting down. Any help, ideas, experiences, would be greatly appreciated. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Aug 27 18:14:53 2024 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2024 15:14:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Shutdown? In-Reply-To: <8874459D-456F-4B57-AD14-281425B0530E@gmail.com> References: <7ce19d1d-e13f-478c-9db4-1e38b4cc2697@solarray.com> <73b67fe1b3d521cc295be424ab132127@sti.net> <8874459D-456F-4B57-AD14-281425B0530E@gmail.com> Message-ID: High voltage disconnect would do this, is the site monitored Fun times On Tue, Aug 27, 2024, 2:47 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I have a buddy in tech support at Fortress. > > I asked him and he said that elevated absorb volts above 55.2 could cause > this situation. > And then the power cycle would reboot the BMS. > > I am presuming its open loop, and the fact you mentioned that there was > more PV and then the shut down sure might be connected. > You might check the charge voltages/time to make sure they are correct and > I can’t remember if the classic has battery sense wire connections. > > jay > > > > > > > > On Aug 27, 2024, at 2:51 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > The SPD was on one of the PV inputs before it came into the house. There > were two Classics, each fed with its own PV input and SPD. It actually > caused an underground splice to fail (high resistance) which I replaced the > splice and restored full voltage, and both Classics were working fine. > Just seems unlikely ( but not impossible) that the surge would make it past > the Classic without damage, but then damage the Fortress BMS in an > otherwise imperceptible manner. That is our current best theory at the > moment though. I added an SPD on the 48 v buss, before this latest total > shutdown. > > Ray Walters > On 8/27/2024 2:35 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > When I have had someone lose an SPD (I assume it was on DC buss) there is > often latent damage (shows up later) to many of the devices. In a Hi Rel > mode, it is recommended to replace it all. Most offgrid is not that > critical but try telling that to someone with rotten food. > > The freezers and reefers are often full of spoils that smells never go > away. YUK ! > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2024-08-27 1:02 pm, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Greetings All; > > I have Fortress Battery installation with a pair of E Vault batteries set > up in a Master/ Slave arrangement. Its been working fine for over a year, > but the customer just had a complete shutdown of the batteries which left > multiple freezers, and refrigerator with rotting food. When he rebooted > the batteries by turning on/off the main breaker on each, they both come up > and showed 100% SOC on the Master, and 98% on the other. There were no > fault codes. I just recently installed a larger PV array, and so the > system has been reaching full charge every morning. > > I have multiple calls in to Fortress, but not hearing anything back from > them at all. We did have a lightning surge event a few months ago, that > damaged a Midnite SPD (first ever for me), and took out the control board > on the generator. One VFX inverter has an LED out, but we only use two > inverters of the Quad stack, so I just switched to another inverter. All > other equipment appeared fine: Midnite controllers, rest of the Outback VFX > quad stack, and never any issues seen with the Fortress batteries. > > The other odd thing, is since he rebooted the batteries, the system is > working fine, and recharging to 100% by 9:30 am as before. Is it > possible the Fortress BMS were damaged and are now having an intermittent > shutdown issue? I did ask him to temporarily disconnect the comms between > batteries, in case it is a bad BMS on one, it will isolate it from the > other. > > This is a tough one to figure out, since it hasn't happened again, and > there are no fault codes. The Mate 3 shows a low frequency AC code, but > that's usually just from the generator shutting down. Any help, ideas, > experiences, would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Aug 27 18:20:49 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2024 16:20:49 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Shutdown? In-Reply-To: <8874459D-456F-4B57-AD14-281425B0530E@gmail.com> References: <7ce19d1d-e13f-478c-9db4-1e38b4cc2697@solarray.com> <73b67fe1b3d521cc295be424ab132127@sti.net> <8874459D-456F-4B57-AD14-281425B0530E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <424fd157-7f1b-4b9f-b166-bee47e929980@solarray.com> I have both controllers set to the Fortress recommended absorb settings of 54.4 vdc for 2 hrs.  Its always possible that there was voltage over swing or something.  I did check that the voltage on the controllers was within a0.1 vdc of the battery voltage at the Fortresses. I'm now using a pair of Midnite Hampton Bay Controllers.  They're rated to 90 amps, but I set them down to 85 A output, just to provide some head room.  I don't mind the very occasional clipping.  The array is two strings of Jinko 425s, 10 per series string, so 4250 w per controller. I wonder if the voltage that causes trouble for Fortress might have changed due to the possible lightning surge? Ray On 8/27/2024 3:46 PM, jay wrote: > I have a buddy in tech support at Fortress. > > I asked him and he said that elevated absorb volts above 55.2 could > cause this situation. > And then the power cycle would reboot the BMS. > > I am presuming its open loop, and the fact you mentioned that there > was more PV and then the shut down sure might be connected. > You might check the charge voltages/time to make sure they are correct > and I can’t remember if the classic has battery sense wire connections. > > jay > > > > > > > >> On Aug 27, 2024, at 2:51 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> The SPD was on one of the PV inputs before it came into the house.  >> There were two Classics, each fed with its own PV input and SPD.  It >> actually caused an underground splice to fail (high resistance) which >> I replaced the splice and restored full voltage, and both Classics >> were working fine.  Just seems unlikely ( but not impossible) that >> the surge would make it past the Classic without damage, but then >> damage the Fortress BMS in an otherwise imperceptible manner. That is >> our current best theory at the moment though.   I added an SPD on the >> 48 v buss, before this latest total shutdown. >> >> Ray Walters >> >> On 8/27/2024 2:35 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> When I have had someone lose an SPD (I assume it was on DC buss) >>> there is often latent damage (shows up later) to many of the >>> devices.  In a Hi Rel mode, it is recommended to replace it all. >>> Most offgrid is not that critical but try telling that to someone >>> with rotten food. >>> The freezers and reefers are often full of spoils that smells never >>> go away. YUK ! >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" >>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>> >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060* >>> >>> >>> On 2024-08-27 1:02 pm, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>>> Greetings All; >>>> >>>> I have Fortress Battery installation with a pair of E Vault >>>> batteries set up in a Master/ Slave arrangement.  Its been working >>>> fine for over a year, but the customer just had a complete shutdown >>>> of the batteries which left multiple freezers, and refrigerator >>>> with rotting food. When he rebooted the batteries by turning on/off >>>> the main breaker on each, they both come up and showed 100% SOC on >>>> the Master, and 98% on the other.    There were no fault codes.   I >>>> just recently installed a larger PV array, and so the system has >>>> been reaching full charge every morning. >>>> >>>> I have multiple calls in to Fortress, but not hearing anything back >>>> from them at all.  We did have a lightning surge event a few months >>>> ago, that damaged a Midnite SPD (first ever for me), and took out >>>> the control board on the generator. One VFX inverter has an LED >>>> out, but we only use two inverters of the Quad stack, so I just >>>> switched to another inverter.  All other equipment appeared fine: >>>> Midnite controllers, rest of the Outback VFX quad stack, and never >>>> any issues seen with the Fortress batteries. >>>> >>>> The other odd thing, is since he rebooted the batteries, the system >>>> is working fine, and recharging to 100%  by 9:30 am as before.    >>>> Is it possible the Fortress BMS were damaged and are now having an >>>> intermittent shutdown issue?  I did ask him to temporarily >>>> disconnect the comms between batteries, in case it is a bad BMS on >>>> one, it will isolate it from the other. >>>> >>>> This is a tough one to figure out, since it hasn't happened again, >>>> and there are no fault codes.  The Mate 3 shows a low frequency AC >>>> code, but that's usually just from the generator shutting down. Any >>>> help, ideas, experiences, would be greatly appreciated. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Ray Walters >>>> Remote Solar >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>> try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Aug 27 18:23:25 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2024 16:23:25 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Shutdown? In-Reply-To: References: <7ce19d1d-e13f-478c-9db4-1e38b4cc2697@solarray.com> <73b67fe1b3d521cc295be424ab132127@sti.net> <8874459D-456F-4B57-AD14-281425B0530E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Is it possible that a load shut off, and then the controllers over shot the voltage long enough to shut the BMS off?  If so, what's the solution? Lower absorb voltages?  I checked voltage calibration between the various pieces of equipment. Ray On 8/27/2024 4:14 PM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches wrote: > > High voltage disconnect would do this, is the site monitored > > Fun times > > > On Tue, Aug 27, 2024, 2:47 PM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > I have a buddy in tech support at Fortress. > > I asked him and he said that elevated absorb volts above 55.2 > could cause this situation. > And then the power cycle would reboot the BMS. > > I am presuming its open loop, and the fact you mentioned that > there was more PV and then the shut down sure might be connected. > You might check the charge voltages/time to make sure they are > correct and I can’t remember if the classic has battery sense wire > connections. > > jay > > > > > > > >> On Aug 27, 2024, at 2:51 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> The SPD was on one of the PV inputs before it came into the >> house.  There were two Classics, each fed with its own PV input >> and SPD.  It actually caused an underground splice to fail (high >> resistance) which I replaced the splice and restored full >> voltage, and both Classics were working fine.  Just seems >> unlikely ( but not impossible) that the surge would make it past >> the Classic without damage, but then damage the Fortress BMS in >> an otherwise imperceptible manner.   That is our current best >> theory at the moment though.   I added an SPD on the 48 v buss, >> before this latest total shutdown. >> >> Ray Walters >> >> On 8/27/2024 2:35 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >>> When I have had someone lose an SPD (I assume it was on DC buss) >>> there is often latent damage (shows up later) to many of the >>> devices.  In a Hi Rel mode, it is recommended to replace it all. >>> Most offgrid is not that critical but try telling that to >>> someone with rotten food. >>> The freezers and reefers are often full of spoils that smells >>> never go away. YUK ! >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" >>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>> >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060* >>> >>> >>> On 2024-08-27 1:02 pm, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>>> Greetings All; >>>> >>>> I have Fortress Battery installation with a pair of E Vault >>>> batteries set up in a Master/ Slave arrangement.  Its been >>>> working fine for over a year, but the customer just had a >>>> complete shutdown of the batteries which left multiple >>>> freezers, and refrigerator with rotting food.   When he >>>> rebooted the batteries by turning on/off the main breaker on >>>> each, they both come up and showed 100% SOC on the Master, and >>>> 98% on the other.    There were no fault codes.   I just >>>> recently installed a larger PV array, and so the system has >>>> been reaching full charge every morning. >>>> >>>> I have multiple calls in to Fortress, but not hearing anything >>>> back from them at all. We did have a lightning surge event a >>>> few months ago, that damaged a Midnite SPD (first ever for me), >>>> and took out the control board on the generator.  One VFX >>>> inverter has an LED out, but we only use two inverters of the >>>> Quad stack, so I just switched to another inverter.  All other >>>> equipment appeared fine: Midnite controllers, rest of the >>>> Outback VFX quad stack, and never any issues seen with the >>>> Fortress batteries. >>>> >>>> The other odd thing, is since he rebooted the batteries, the >>>> system is working fine, and recharging to 100%  by 9:30 am as >>>> before.    Is it possible the Fortress BMS were damaged and are >>>> now having an intermittent shutdown issue?  I did ask him to >>>> temporarily disconnect the comms between batteries, in case it >>>> is a bad BMS on one, it will isolate it from the other. >>>> >>>> This is a tough one to figure out, since it hasn't happened >>>> again, and there are no fault codes.  The Mate 3 shows a low >>>> frequency AC code, but that's usually just from the generator >>>> shutting down.    Any help, ideas, experiences, would be >>>> greatly appreciated. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Ray Walters >>>> Remote Solar >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>>> work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >> try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue Aug 27 18:34:58 2024 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2024 18:34:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OB Radian / FM60 grid tie mystery Message-ID: Will have to upgrade AC circuitry for the additional current if not already so.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Bill Battagin via RE-wrenchesDate: Tue, Aug 27, 2024 4:03 PMTo: offgridsolar at sti.net;RE-wrenches;Cc: Bill Battagin;Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] OB Radian / FM60 grid tie mystery Wrenches,             We have a customer with older (circa 2008) SMA SB5000US that seems to have failed.  Zonna is not an option, none in stock. You Love Solar wants $4K+ (with tax,and shipping) but we have a new SMA SB6.0-1SP-US-40 in a dusty box in stock.                         Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, owner 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) CA. C10 Lic # 874049 Solar Powered since 1982 Home of the Sunny Side Up Virus-free.www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Tue Aug 27 19:19:49 2024 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2024 18:19:49 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Shutdown? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0DB3FDFE-744A-4002-91BE-CBFA39C737FE@mavericksolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Aug 27 19:43:01 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2024 16:43:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Shutdown? In-Reply-To: <0DB3FDFE-744A-4002-91BE-CBFA39C737FE@mavericksolar.com> References: <0DB3FDFE-744A-4002-91BE-CBFA39C737FE@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: <7cbf6cb65a6be15b82eb1f0622fee6e8@sti.net> Just curious what high SoC is? I set mine for 95% or so and do not worry about the last few %. Have not seen this problem but do not use fortress. Should not have shut downs offgrid except LBCO or lightning. I really think that an SPD should be on the battery as well as AC in and out these days, especially with a 48V BMS. Tempting the demons! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-08-27 4:19 pm, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches wrote: > Ray > > I think you are on to something. > > I have multiple eVault MAX batteries on a Radian and I have had > mysterious random shutdowns with high SOC before. > > Could be they were off grid at the time or had a big load shut off > causing a voltage bounce. > > The batteries are comm'd together but not to the Radian, of course. > > If that is the case, I wonder if there is a newer battery firmware that > can over come this or in fact why a LiFePO4 can't go over 55.2 when > most have a 58.4V limit. > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > * Solar Commander Remote Power > * SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > >> On Aug 27, 2024, at 5:24 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches >> wrote: > > Is it possible that a load shut off, and then the controllers over shot > the voltage long enough to shut the BMS off? If so, what's the > solution? Lower absorb voltages? I checked voltage calibration between > the various pieces of equipment. > > Ray > > On 8/27/2024 4:14 PM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches wrote: > > High voltage disconnect would do this, is the site monitored > > Fun times > > On Tue, Aug 27, 2024, 2:47 PM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > I have a buddy in tech support at Fortress. > > I asked him and he said that elevated absorb volts above 55.2 could > cause this situation. > And then the power cycle would reboot the BMS. > > I am presuming its open loop, and the fact you mentioned that there was > more PV and then the shut down sure might be connected. > You might check the charge voltages/time to make sure they are correct > and I can't remember if the classic has battery sense wire connections. > > jay > > On Aug 27, 2024, at 2:51 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > The SPD was on one of the PV inputs before it came into the house. > There were two Classics, each fed with its own PV input and SPD. It > actually caused an underground splice to fail (high resistance) which I > replaced the splice and restored full voltage, and both Classics were > working fine. Just seems unlikely ( but not impossible) that the surge > would make it past the Classic without damage, but then damage the > Fortress BMS in an otherwise imperceptible manner. That is our > current best theory at the moment though. I added an SPD on the 48 v > buss, before this latest total shutdown. > > Ray Walters > > On 8/27/2024 2:35 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches > wrote: > When I have had someone lose an SPD (I assume it was on DC buss) there > is often latent damage (shows up later) to many of the devices. In a > Hi Rel mode, it is recommended to replace it all. Most offgrid is not > that critical but try telling that to someone with rotten food. > > The freezers and reefers are often full of spoils that smells never go > away. YUK ! > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On 2024-08-27 1:02 pm, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > Greetings All; > > I have Fortress Battery installation with a pair of E Vault batteries > set up in a Master/ Slave arrangement. Its been working fine for over > a year, but the customer just had a complete shutdown of the batteries > which left multiple freezers, and refrigerator with rotting food. > When he rebooted the batteries by turning on/off the main breaker on > each, they both come up and showed 100% SOC on the Master, and 98% on > the other. There were no fault codes. I just recently installed a > larger PV array, and so the system has been reaching full charge every > morning. > > I have multiple calls in to Fortress, but not hearing anything back > from them at all. We did have a lightning surge event a few months > ago, that damaged a Midnite SPD (first ever for me), and took out the > control board on the generator. One VFX inverter has an LED out, but > we only use two inverters of the Quad stack, so I just switched to > another inverter. All other equipment appeared fine: Midnite > controllers, rest of the Outback VFX quad stack, and never any issues > seen with the Fortress batteries. > > The other odd thing, is since he rebooted the batteries, the system is > working fine, and recharging to 100% by 9:30 am as before. Is it > possible the Fortress BMS were damaged and are now having an > intermittent shutdown issue? I did ask him to temporarily disconnect > the comms between batteries, in case it is a bad BMS on one, it will > isolate it from the other. > > This is a tough one to figure out, since it hasn't happened again, and > there are no fault codes. The Mate 3 shows a low frequency AC code, > but that's usually just from the generator shutting down. Any help, > ideas, experiences, would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [3] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [4] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [3] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [4] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ [3] http://re-wrenches.org/ [4] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: aa spd.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 76080 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Tue Aug 27 20:00:58 2024 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2024 19:00:58 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Shutdown? In-Reply-To: <7cbf6cb65a6be15b82eb1f0622fee6e8@sti.net> References: <7cbf6cb65a6be15b82eb1f0622fee6e8@sti.net> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Tue Aug 27 20:22:10 2024 From: frenergy at psln.com (Bill Battagin) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2024 17:22:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Swapping vintage SMA inverter to SB-40? In-Reply-To: References: <9FD6DF6F-490B-4E56-BB68-C20779780E6D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2a6635f9-829d-4ae6-80d4-5e065ba7824a@psln.com> Wrenches,             Earlier post was accidental, incomplete (below). Anyway,  I've since rec'd a response from SMA (Thanks Mike), despite my lack of details of this proposed change-out he offered some valuable tips.             Yes, I was hoping by splitting this array of 30, Evergreen 190's into two strings, using 2 of the three MPPT inputs in the SMA SB-40 and using the existing wiring which is: "Diesel Locomotive Cable" yes, see the picture, leads from the PVs and USE-2 for home runs (in conduit), that this would work.             A couple times I've taken the gamble of purchasing used not-to-old inverters off Ebay but as time goes on I'm feeling like my luck so far won't hold out.  Sometimes you can find an old inverter that doesn't many KWhrs on it and was mounted inside or north side of the house with a cooler climate....It depends on the customer and situation.  This seems like a solid way to go but would appreciate (+) or (-) feedback, experience.             I wish I'd stocked up on SB-40's and 41's before they disappeared. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, owner 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) CA. C10 Lic # 874049 Solar Powered since 1982 Home of the Sunny Side Up On 8/27/2024 1:02 PM, Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Wrenches, > >             We have a customer with older (circa 2008) SMA SB5000US > that seems to have failed.  Zonna is not an option, none in stock. You > Love Solar wants $4K+ (with tax,and shipping) but we have a new SMA > SB6.0-1SP-US-40 in a dusty box in stock. > > > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, owner > 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) > 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) > CA. C10 Lic # 874049 > Solar Powered since 1982 > Home of the Sunny Side Up > > > Virus-free.www.avast.com > > > > <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: FRS_working_logo, 50%.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 8424 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Wed Aug 28 12:40:11 2024 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2024 16:40:11 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Envy E-stop In-Reply-To: <3BBEECBB-7570-458C-A2CD-C321A7B26573@gmail.com> References: <3BBEECBB-7570-458C-A2CD-C321A7B26573@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have filled out two different online Technical Support tickets with Fortress in the last two weeks. Most of the time I get a response within 3 hours, and follow up responses are normally even faster. However, one recently was in regard to a very specific integration issue with an SMA inverter, so they had to get it to the right person and do a little digging… so that took a few days. The good news is that they did indeed give me an answer instead of dismissing it as most companies seem to do these days, and they fixed their SMA integration guide immediately. Your mileage may vary. Thanks, Kienan Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution LLC Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and consulting company) maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584(Cell) www.distribution.solar On Jul 25, 2024, at 1:26 PM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches wrote:  Not sure what tell you about your Envy True 12 if its missing the terminal block....their tech support now takes hours or days to respond,(six months ago it was immediate) and they almost mandate filing a service request online to get a case ticket# before they'll talk to you. On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 2:23 PM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches > wrote: No wonder I'm confused, this inverter is missing the terminal block that the manual references. Does anyone have a good, direct number for Fortress tech support that will pick up. I'm getting nothing... Thanks! On Thu, Jul 25, 2024, 7:39 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi Lewis Yes both the 12 and 18 have RSD It’s a button on the left side. Shuts off AC and PV Jay On Jul 25, 2024, at 7:30 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches > wrote:  Hello Wrenches, Does anyone know if the 12kW Envy inverter has remote stop capability? I need an external button to activate rapid shutdown and disable inverter output but I'm not seeing this functionality in the manual. Seems strange to me. Thanks in advance! -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!! dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Aug 29 15:06:47 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 13:06:47 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discover battery update. Message-ID: Hi all. I wanted to fill in an update as to the discover battery issue a while back Discover is sending a full warranty replacement battery for the roughly 2 year old one. It turns out the paperwork had been filled out correctly by the installer. But discover is “having issues accessing such data”. Thankfully the installer kept all his paperwork after he retired and moved so he was able to provide it to discover. I also heard that Schneider is discontinuing the XW line. Jay From ray at solarray.com Thu Aug 29 20:26:53 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 18:26:53 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Shutdown? In-Reply-To: <424fd157-7f1b-4b9f-b166-bee47e929980@solarray.com> References: <7ce19d1d-e13f-478c-9db4-1e38b4cc2697@solarray.com> <73b67fe1b3d521cc295be424ab132127@sti.net> <8874459D-456F-4B57-AD14-281425B0530E@gmail.com> <424fd157-7f1b-4b9f-b166-bee47e929980@solarray.com> Message-ID: I've gotten word back from Fortress on this issue.  Here's what they said: /The problems you were describing align with an issue in the earlier eVault Max batteries that we call "ghosting." Batteries with this issue would turn off like you described when being idle or taking very little current, for an extended amount of time.   A firmware update should resolve this issue./ Thought you all should know.  I'll keep you updated on how the firmware update goes. Thanks, Ray Walters Remote Solar On 8/27/2024 4:20 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I have both controllers set to the Fortress recommended absorb > settings of 54.4 vdc for 2 hrs.  Its always possible that there was > voltage over swing or something.  I did check that the voltage on the > controllers was within a0.1 vdc of the battery voltage at the > Fortresses. I'm now using a pair of Midnite Hampton Bay Controllers.  > They're rated to 90 amps, but I set them down to 85 A output, just to > provide some head room.  I don't mind the very occasional clipping.  > The array is two strings of Jinko 425s, 10 per series string, so 4250 > w per controller. > > I wonder if the voltage that causes trouble for Fortress might have > changed due to the possible lightning surge? > > Ray > > On 8/27/2024 3:46 PM, jay wrote: >> I have a buddy in tech support at Fortress. >> >> I asked him and he said that elevated absorb volts above 55.2 could >> cause this situation. >> And then the power cycle would reboot the BMS. >> >> I am presuming its open loop, and the fact you mentioned that there >> was more PV and then the shut down sure might be connected. >> You might check the charge voltages/time to make sure they are >> correct and I can’t remember if the classic has battery sense wire >> connections. >> >> jay >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Aug 27, 2024, at 2:51 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>> The SPD was on one of the PV inputs before it came into the house.  >>> There were two Classics, each fed with its own PV input and SPD.  It >>> actually caused an underground splice to fail (high resistance) >>> which I replaced the splice and restored full voltage, and both >>> Classics were working fine. Just seems unlikely ( but not >>> impossible) that the surge would make it past the Classic without >>> damage, but then damage the Fortress BMS in an otherwise >>> imperceptible manner.   That is our current best theory at the >>> moment though.   I added an SPD on the 48 v buss, before this latest >>> total shutdown. >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> >>> On 8/27/2024 2:35 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> When I have had someone lose an SPD (I assume it was on DC buss) >>>> there is often latent damage (shows up later) to many of the >>>> devices.  In a Hi Rel mode, it is recommended to replace it all. >>>> Most offgrid is not that critical but try telling that to someone >>>> with rotten food. >>>> The freezers and reefers are often full of spoils that smells never >>>> go away. YUK ! >>>> >>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" >>>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>>> >>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060* >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2024-08-27 1:02 pm, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> >>>>> Greetings All; >>>>> >>>>> I have Fortress Battery installation with a pair of E Vault >>>>> batteries set up in a Master/ Slave arrangement.  Its been working >>>>> fine for over a year, but the customer just had a complete >>>>> shutdown of the batteries which left multiple freezers, and >>>>> refrigerator with rotting food. When he rebooted the batteries by >>>>> turning on/off the main breaker on each, they both come up and >>>>> showed 100% SOC on the Master, and 98% on the other.    There were >>>>> no fault codes.   I just recently installed a larger PV array, and >>>>> so the system has been reaching full charge every morning. >>>>> >>>>> I have multiple calls in to Fortress, but not hearing anything >>>>> back from them at all.  We did have a lightning surge event a few >>>>> months ago, that damaged a Midnite SPD (first ever for me), and >>>>> took out the control board on the generator.  One VFX inverter has >>>>> an LED out, but we only use two inverters of the Quad stack, so I >>>>> just switched to another inverter.  All other equipment appeared >>>>> fine: Midnite controllers, rest of the Outback VFX quad stack, and >>>>> never any issues seen with the Fortress batteries. >>>>> >>>>> The other odd thing, is since he rebooted the batteries, the >>>>> system is working fine, and recharging to 100%  by 9:30 am as >>>>> before.    Is it possible the Fortress BMS were damaged and are >>>>> now having an intermittent shutdown issue? I did ask him to >>>>> temporarily disconnect the comms between batteries, in case it is >>>>> a bad BMS on one, it will isolate it from the other. >>>>> >>>>> This is a tough one to figure out, since it hasn't happened again, >>>>> and there are no fault codes.  The Mate 3 shows a low frequency AC >>>>> code, but that's usually just from the generator shutting down.    >>>>> Any help, ideas, experiences, would be greatly appreciated. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> Ray Walters >>>>> Remote Solar >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>>> try the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>> try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Fri Aug 30 13:25:41 2024 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 11:25:41 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Kilovault warranty issues Message-ID: <007a01dafb01$a403ea30$ec0bbe90$@OasisMontana.com> Hi folks: Is there any contact information for warranty issues on bum Kilovault batteries (with unfortunate BMS issues)? Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri Aug 30 15:43:06 2024 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 13:43:06 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Kilovault warranty issues In-Reply-To: <007a01dafb01$a403ea30$ec0bbe90$@OasisMontana.com> References: <007a01dafb01$a403ea30$ec0bbe90$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: <50AA62CD-E970-4BC8-AC5D-C8ADB006CBAD@starlightsolar.com> Hi Chris, I can’t help with Warranty; I don’t think anyone can. KiloVault started importing about one year after LiFeBlue Battery began operations. Thy ordered from the same supplier as we do. Our BMS will fit and work with their Version 3 case and cells if you need repairs. Larry Crutcher Starlight Power Systems On Aug 30, 2024, at 11:25 AM, Chris Daum via RE-wrenches wrote: Hi folks: Is there any contact information for warranty issues on bum Kilovault batteries (with unfortunate BMS issues)? Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Aug 30 16:53:07 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 14:53:07 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider mppt 60-150 question Message-ID: <8862455B-E248-4239-B9E8-F3861C814145@gmail.com> Hi all. Any issues with the xw 60-150 operating lithium batteries? Namely that they are fast enough in their regulation Thx Jay From maverick at mavericksolar.com Fri Aug 30 18:41:58 2024 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 17:41:58 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider mppt 60-150 question In-Reply-To: <8862455B-E248-4239-B9E8-F3861C814145@gmail.com> References: <8862455B-E248-4239-B9E8-F3861C814145@gmail.com> Message-ID: <478C1CCB-CBF2-4D75-AE5E-7C83852F732D@mavericksolar.com> Jay I have multiple sites running XW MPPT60-150 charge controllers. Discover AES Fortress eFlex Pytes eBox EG4 LL All are doing fine. Insight Home or Facility can see voltage and SOC. Of course Discover is native xanbus. So simple, but I haven’t yet figured out how to calibrate the charge controller perceived battery voltage versus the actual battery voltage. So you might want to hand edit absorb and float settings to match the battery voltage expected numbers. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On Aug 30, 2024, at 3:54 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Hi all. > > Any issues with the xw 60-150 operating lithium batteries? > Namely that they are fast enough in their regulation > > Thx > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Sun Sep 1 15:52:53 2024 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2024 12:52:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ultimate failure mode of well pump Message-ID: A couple of months ago I posted a thread about a failed SQFlex pump. I now believe I have finally discovered the root cause of the failure. After replacing the pump and still not getting good production, I dug out the pitless adapter and plumbing outside the well casing to discover that the pitless adapter and the check valve were both split apart. Actually, they are hard to see as only little hairline cracks that I'm sure open up under pressure, as I've seen before. Also, I could blow air through one of the threaded fittings. This is a classic example of plumbing that has been frozen. This is kind of a surprise since we did not have all that much cold last winter, and the pitless is 2 ft underground. The well is in a low spot in a meadow however, where colder air does settle. The well casing also sticks up about 3 ft above ground level, so I guess was more exposed to the cold air. I did that because of surface water in the wet season. So, I think that the pump probably ran while the plumbing was frozen, deadheading it causing the pump failure. I am surprised it did not blow apart the drop pipe which is 300 psi poly, but it was apparently unscathed. I've now replaced the pitless adapter and associated plumbing with stainless steel. Not that it would withstand freezing, but the items I got are so much higher quality that the brass I've been getting lately, and not much more expensive anymore. I purchased the stainless fittings from RPS Water Pumps and they were the nicest machined fittings I've ever seen. The union is particularly beautiful with a nice taper seal instead of the usual. I also have wrapped the well casing with reflectix and covered it all in a poly mail drop box. That should keep it from freezing again. The drop box looks like a monolith out the field but I have not noticed any radio signals toward space :). Now the system is back up and running fine. Brad Bassett -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From coresolar at gmail.com Tue Sep 3 11:54:50 2024 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2024 10:54:50 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SunPower Warranty and Monitoring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason, Perhaps you also saw this headline: Maxeon to offer warranty support for bankrupt SunPower it doesn't address Enphase equipment separately/specifically - seemingly only Maxeon modules (or ac modules with Enphase units attached). Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica On Thurs, Aug 15, 2024 at 5:09 PM wrote: > > As another one bites the dust, does anyone have insight into who, if > anyone, will take over the warranty for Sunpower branded Enphase > microinverters and if the SunPower monitoring will continue to work? Or > maybe they can be software updated to work on the Enlighten portal? > > And also, would a system be able to be upgraded using Enphase branded > microinverters if the software was made to be compatible? > > I'm sure there are more questions than answers at this point, but I wanted > to get the discussion going. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Tue Sep 3 14:04:04 2024 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2024 11:04:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Rather symbolic I'd say. My company had been a dealer since 2005. [image: Inline image] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: The wheels came off-SPWR.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 309450 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Tue Sep 3 14:53:32 2024 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2024 18:53:32 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider mppt 60-150 question In-Reply-To: <8862455B-E248-4239-B9E8-F3861C814145@gmail.com> References: <8862455B-E248-4239-B9E8-F3861C814145@gmail.com> Message-ID: I've got a few installs with the XWMPPT60-150 with Lithium. Deka Duration, closed loop via Insight Home, programmed to allow BMS voltage to drive the MPPT. Have several of this configuration. One site upon initial setup was giving constant High Voltage mid day shutdowns on the inverter when batteries at 100% (SW4048) despite logging not showing battery voltage going above 54V. Schneider tech support was beyond useless waste of time. Only way I got this to stabilize was setting the inverter High Voltage shut down to 60V. 58V was still getting the error intermittently. Not ideal but at least the client wasn't having their cooling units without power until they got home from work to reset the inverter. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jay via RE-wrenches Sent: August-30-24 1:53 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jay Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider mppt 60-150 question Hi all. Any issues with the xw 60-150 operating lithium batteries? Namely that they are fast enough in their regulation Thx Jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Sep 3 20:11:02 2024 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2024 17:11:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tires are worth more than the stock On Tue, Sep 3, 2024, 11:05 AM Marco Mangelsdorf via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Rather symbolic I'd say. My company had been a dealer since 2005. > > [image: Inline image] > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: The wheels came off-SPWR.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 309450 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Sat Sep 7 18:49:32 2024 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2024 22:49:32 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Fm100=E2=80=99s_stuck_at_full_charge?= Message-ID: <9FD9F168-D23E-41DC-B7E6-A87D6DA55325@solarwork.com> OK, you wise guys. I am upgrading my home off grid system from two FM 80s to two FM 100s. The FM 80s were able to share the negative wire so you didn’t have to pull a second negative wire. I wired the FM 100 typical of how my FM 80s were wired with a number four battery negative assuming and yes, I know what happens when I assume, that the PV negative on the battery negative are common and I could just pull one number four since going through those double 1” - 90° is a bitch. Currently I have two # fours for output to battery, the number eight ground and 1 # six PV input. I got this all together and it’s charging just fine but once the battery got full charge controllers continued to produce full output. The battery dropped to a float and I had 2800W on each charge controller continuing to be produced at which was turning into heat so the FM 100s were getting very warm. The fans had not turned on, but the heat sinks were definitely very very warm to the touch. The battery voltage is fine. I Read the manual it doesn’t talk about being able to use one negative so I am assuming that my problem is that the PV needs a negative and they do not share the negative. Has anybody else seen this or done the same wiring maneuver. thanks in advance Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 From solman at legacysolar.com Sat Sep 7 19:12:35 2024 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2024 18:12:35 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian programming Message-ID: Hi All, This will likely be an easy answer for this group. I have a radian 4048 installation and am unable to get the programming correct. What i want it to do is sell to the grid when the batteries are full, but draw from the batteries at night or during cloudy periods until hitting a set SOC or voltage and bring in the grid at that point. It successfully sells as desired, but as soon as the PV goes away, it pulls from the grid to satisfy house loads even with a full battery. The only operation mode that will sell is grid-tied, yes? I know I'm probably missing something obvious... Thanks for the help, Kris Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Sat Sep 7 19:24:58 2024 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2024 18:24:58 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Fm100=E2=80=99s_stuck_at_full_charge?= In-Reply-To: <9FD9F168-D23E-41DC-B7E6-A87D6DA55325@solarwork.com> References: <9FD9F168-D23E-41DC-B7E6-A87D6DA55325@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <62E3F9BF-7FA7-4D1E-B48C-1E135410169D@mavericksolar.com> Dana I have always wired the PV negative all the way to the charge controller. That way, the battery negative of the charge controller that happens to go to a shunt has a proper representation of the current flow. I guess you could put that PV negative at the same side of the shunt as the battery negative since internally the negatives are tied together on the charge controller. Did the charge controller come AFCI? If so, you likely have to bring both PV cables through the current sense of the AFCI. Also check to see if you have global charge control coordination turned on, if so, turn it off and also check restart mode to set to two which means restart after 90 minutes no matter what. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On Sep 7, 2024, at 5:50 PM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches wrote: > > OK, you wise guys. > I am upgrading my home off grid system from two FM 80s to two FM 100s. > The FM 80s were able to share the negative wire so you didn’t have to pull a second negative wire. > I wired the FM 100 typical of how my FM 80s were wired with a number four battery negative assuming and yes, I know what happens when I assume, that the PV negative on the battery negative are common and I could just pull one number four since going through those double 1” - 90° is a bitch. Currently I have two # fours for output to battery, the number eight ground and 1 # six PV input. > I got this all together and it’s charging just fine but once the battery got full charge controllers continued to produce full output. The battery dropped to a float and I had 2800W on each charge controller continuing to be produced at which was turning into heat so the FM 100s were getting very warm. The fans had not turned on, but the heat sinks were definitely very very warm to the touch. The battery voltage is fine. > I Read the manual it doesn’t talk about being able to use one negative so I am assuming that my problem is that the PV needs a negative and they do not share the negative. > Has anybody else seen this or done the same wiring maneuver. > thanks in advance > > Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Sat Sep 7 19:28:56 2024 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2024 18:28:56 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian programming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: maxresdefault.jpg Type: image/png Size: 58963 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Sat Sep 7 21:06:31 2024 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2024 21:06:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Fm100=E2=80=99s_stuck_at_full_charge?= In-Reply-To: <62E3F9BF-7FA7-4D1E-B48C-1E135410169D@mavericksolar.com> References: <9FD9F168-D23E-41DC-B7E6-A87D6DA55325@solarwork.com> <62E3F9BF-7FA7-4D1E-B48C-1E135410169D@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: Which Mate are you using? I know the FM100 is only compatible with the Mate 3s. If you are using a Mate 3, this mismatch could possibly be the cause of these issues. On Sat, Sep 7, 2024 at 7:25 PM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Dana > > I have always wired the PV negative all the way to the charge controller. > That way, the battery negative of the charge controller that happens to go > to a shunt has a proper representation of the current flow. I guess you > could put that PV negative at the same side of the shunt as the battery > negative since internally the negatives are tied together on the charge > controller. > > Did the charge controller come > AFCI? If so, you likely have to bring both PV cables through the current > sense of the AFCI. > > Also check to see if you have global charge control coordination turned > on, if so, turn it off and also check restart mode to set to two which > means restart after 90 minutes no matter what. > > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > > > On Sep 7, 2024, at 5:50 PM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > OK, you wise guys. > > > I am upgrading my home off grid system from two FM 80s to two FM 100s. > The FM 80s were able to share the negative wire so you didn’t have to pull > a second negative wire. > I wired the FM 100 typical of how my FM 80s were wired with a number four > battery negative assuming and yes, I know what happens when I assume, that > the PV negative on the battery negative are common and I could just pull > one number four since going through those double 1” - 90° is a bitch. > Currently I have two # fours for output to battery, the number eight ground > and 1 # six PV input. > I got this all together and it’s charging just fine but once the battery > got full charge controllers continued to produce full output. The battery > dropped to a float and I had 2800W on each charge controller continuing to > be produced at which was turning into heat so the FM 100s were getting very > warm. The fans had not turned on, but the heat sinks were definitely very > very warm to the touch. The battery voltage is fine. > I Read the manual it doesn’t talk about being able to use one negative so > I am assuming that my problem is that the PV needs a negative and they do > not share the negative. > Has anybody else seen this or done the same wiring maneuver. > thanks in advance > > Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Sat Sep 7 21:25:02 2024 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2024 01:25:02 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Fm100=E2=80=99s_stuck_at_full_charge?= In-Reply-To: References: <9FD9F168-D23E-41DC-B7E6-A87D6DA55325@solarwork.com> <62E3F9BF-7FA7-4D1E-B48C-1E135410169D@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: <861496F6-A691-4D2A-81D1-208FFF9417ED@solarwork.com> Mate 3s Dana Orzel C: 208.721.7003 E- dana at solarwork.com On Sep 7, 2024, at 7:07 PM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote:  Which Mate are you using? I know the FM100 is only compatible with the Mate 3s. If you are using a Mate 3, this mismatch could possibly be the cause of these issues. On Sat, Sep 7, 2024 at 7:25 PM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches > wrote: Dana I have always wired the PV negative all the way to the charge controller. That way, the battery negative of the charge controller that happens to go to a shunt has a proper representation of the current flow. I guess you could put that PV negative at the same side of the shunt as the battery negative since internally the negatives are tied together on the charge controller. Did the charge controller come AFCI? If so, you likely have to bring both PV cables through the current sense of the AFCI. Also check to see if you have global charge control coordination turned on, if so, turn it off and also check restart mode to set to two which means restart after 90 minutes no matter what. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 On Sep 7, 2024, at 5:50 PM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches > wrote: OK, you wise guys. I am upgrading my home off grid system from two FM 80s to two FM 100s. The FM 80s were able to share the negative wire so you didn’t have to pull a second negative wire. I wired the FM 100 typical of how my FM 80s were wired with a number four battery negative assuming and yes, I know what happens when I assume, that the PV negative on the battery negative are common and I could just pull one number four since going through those double 1” - 90° is a bitch. Currently I have two # fours for output to battery, the number eight ground and 1 # six PV input. I got this all together and it’s charging just fine but once the battery got full charge controllers continued to produce full output. The battery dropped to a float and I had 2800W on each charge controller continuing to be produced at which was turning into heat so the FM 100s were getting very warm. The fans had not turned on, but the heat sinks were definitely very very warm to the touch. The battery voltage is fine. I Read the manual it doesn’t talk about being able to use one negative so I am assuming that my problem is that the PV needs a negative and they do not share the negative. Has anybody else seen this or done the same wiring maneuver. thanks in advance Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Sep 8 14:22:56 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2024 12:22:56 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Fm100=E2=80=99s_stuck_at_full_charge?= In-Reply-To: <9FD9F168-D23E-41DC-B7E6-A87D6DA55325@solarwork.com> References: <9FD9F168-D23E-41DC-B7E6-A87D6DA55325@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <45A6797A-8918-4882-B5F1-D4EA366132A6@gmail.com> It doesn’t make any sense that the controllers would be processing 2800 watts internally. It would be so hot you couldn’t touch them. Think of a 1500 watt electric heater and this would be 2X. I would put my clamp on to confirm. But I suspect it’s going somewhere Jay > On Sep 7, 2024, at 4:50 PM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches wrote: > > OK, you wise guys. > I am upgrading my home off grid system from two FM 80s to two FM 100s. > The FM 80s were able to share the negative wire so you didn’t have to pull a second negative wire. > I wired the FM 100 typical of how my FM 80s were wired with a number four battery negative assuming and yes, I know what happens when I assume, that the PV negative on the battery negative are common and I could just pull one number four since going through those double 1” - 90° is a bitch. Currently I have two # fours for output to battery, the number eight ground and 1 # six PV input. > I got this all together and it’s charging just fine but once the battery got full charge controllers continued to produce full output. The battery dropped to a float and I had 2800W on each charge controller continuing to be produced at which was turning into heat so the FM 100s were getting very warm. The fans had not turned on, but the heat sinks were definitely very very warm to the touch. The battery voltage is fine. > I Read the manual it doesn’t talk about being able to use one negative so I am assuming that my problem is that the PV needs a negative and they do not share the negative. > Has anybody else seen this or done the same wiring maneuver. > thanks in advance > > Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From frenergy at psln.com Mon Sep 9 00:54:18 2024 From: frenergy at psln.com (Bill Battagin) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2024 21:54:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Fm100=E2=80=99s_stuck_at_full_charge?= In-Reply-To: <9FD9F168-D23E-41DC-B7E6-A87D6DA55325@solarwork.com> References: <9FD9F168-D23E-41DC-B7E6-A87D6DA55325@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <9fda3be6-d3ab-4372-835d-ce95194b8865@psln.com> Dana,             You must have quite a bit of PV to switch out to 2 FM100's.  You didn't mention what is the size of your battery and its chemistry, what's you C-rate?  If you're charging a large Lead acid battery and maybe it was discharged pretty deep and/or you have substantial loads once you hit absorb, once its reached absorb it may continue to process pretty high amps to hold that voltage as it works on finish charging a large pack up to 100%. How long is it putting out 2800 watts per CC?             Obviously this doesn't apply with L-ion Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, owner 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) CA. C10 Lic # 874049 Solar Powered since 1982 Home of the Sunny Side Up On 9/7/2024 3:49 PM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches wrote: > OK, you wise guys. > I am upgrading my home off grid system from two FM 80s to two FM 100s. > The FM 80s were able to share the negative wire so you didn’t have to pull a second negative wire. > I wired the FM 100 typical of how my FM 80s were wired with a number four battery negative assuming and yes, I know what happens when I assume, that the PV negative on the battery negative are common and I could just pull one number four since going through those double 1” - 90° is a bitch. Currently I have two # fours for output to battery, the number eight ground and 1 # six PV input. > I got this all together and it’s charging just fine but once the battery got full charge controllers continued to produce full output. The battery dropped to a float and I had 2800W on each charge controller continuing to be produced at which was turning into heat so the FM 100s were getting very warm. The fans had not turned on, but the heat sinks were definitely very very warm to the touch. The battery voltage is fine. > I Read the manual it doesn’t talk about being able to use one negative so I am assuming that my problem is that the PV needs a negative and they do not share the negative. > Has anybody else seen this or done the same wiring maneuver. > thanks in advance > > Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com From dana at solarwork.com Mon Sep 9 09:21:22 2024 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2024 13:21:22 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Fm100=E2=80=99s__now_not_stuck_at_full_c?= =?utf-8?q?harge_Update?= In-Reply-To: <8859513C-E56B-461C-915A-73544138CCC9@solarwork.com> References: <9fda3be6-d3ab-4372-835d-ce95194b8865@psln.com> <8859513C-E56B-461C-915A-73544138CCC9@solarwork.com> Message-ID: The original system installed in 2016 was: _________________________________________ 1 - 48v/2490ahr HUP Solar One battery bank 24 - 280watt Solar World PV mods. 2 - Wattson trackers (I live in a SW x NE canyon; sun rises late, 9:30-10:00 in winter & sets at 4:00) It’s a narrow window hence the addition of trackers has been the ticket, also due to zoning regs & the entire property at a 14* slope I did not have the space to that much of a ground mount 1 - 8048 Radian prewired board with 2 - FM80 Charge controllers The upgrade is replacing 2-CC & the 24-PV mods: _______________________________________ 2 - FM100 as I am going over 4320w per CC & at -25*F as could be 5,180+/-w per CC. 24 - 360watt REC PV mods. _______________________________________________________________________________________ The system has worked flawlessly since 2016 including finishing original construction on home, shop, greenhouse, & garage and only 4-6 hours of backup generator for the entire winter season. The upgrade is precipitated by strong possibility that my wonderful but seriously failing 87-year old mother in law may be joining us for the final countdown of her life. On Sunday I added the negative wire to the PV input & took the FM100 out of Global Coordination per Mavericks suggestion. The day was filled with lots of small cumulus so not a great charging day, but the system appeared to have straightened out & I was getting significantly more [900-1000 w] out of the system than with the FM80 CCs (interesting). Perhaps, this was due to the cooling effect of shaded & then in the sun & back again though at 4:00 I finally had a solid sun & 6.2KW coming in at 85*F which is much higher than with the FM 80 CC at same temps. Typically the input would have been 5.4KW at 85*F. Or was this adding the negative wire to the PV input? Can anyone provide clarity on the taking the FM100s out of Global Coordination? Would this allow Tapering the final charge off better? Today is clear & forecast for full sun. I will report back as I will come back from a new project we are doing around the corner for lunch. _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com “Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!” -----Original Message----- From: Dana Orzel Sent: Monday, September 9, 2024 6:43 AM To: Dana Orzel Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fm100’s stuck at full charge Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 > On Sep 8, 2024, at 10:53 PM, Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Dana, > > You must have quite a bit of PV to switch out to 2 FM100's. You didn't mention what is the size of your battery and its chemistry, what's you C-rate? If you're charging a large Lead acid battery and maybe it was discharged pretty deep and/or you have substantial loads once you hit absorb, once its reached absorb it may continue to process pretty high amps to hold that voltage as it works on finish charging a large pack up to 100%. How long is it putting out 2800 watts per CC? > > Obviously this doesn't apply with L-ion > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, owner > 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) > 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) > CA. C10 Lic # 874049 > Solar Powered since 1982 > Home of the Sunny Side Up > >> On 9/7/2024 3:49 PM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches wrote: >> OK, you wise guys. >> I am upgrading my home off grid system from two FM 80s to two FM 100s. >> The FM 80s were able to share the negative wire so you didn’t have to pull a second negative wire. >> I wired the FM 100 typical of how my FM 80s were wired with a number four battery negative assuming and yes, I know what happens when I assume, that the PV negative on the battery negative are common and I could just pull one number four since going through those double 1” - 90° is a bitch. Currently I have two # fours for output to battery, the number eight ground and 1 # six PV input. >> I got this all together and it’s charging just fine but once the battery got full charge controllers continued to produce full output. The battery dropped to a float and I had 2800W on each charge controller continuing to be produced at which was turning into heat so the FM 100s were getting very warm. The fans had not turned on, but the heat sinks were definitely very very warm to the touch. The battery voltage is fine. >> I Read the manual it doesn’t talk about being able to use one negative so I am assuming that my problem is that the PV needs a negative and they do not share the negative. >> Has anybody else seen this or done the same wiring maneuver. >> thanks in advance >> >> Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Sep 9 10:08:18 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2024 08:08:18 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Fm100=E2=80=99s__now_not_stuck_at_full_c?= =?utf-8?q?harge_Update?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On the FM60/80 the negative terminals are common. The CC can’t see if you run the bat only or PV and bat. It doesn’t matter, it measures on the + side. As to how the FM 100’s work I have only hooked them up PV +/- in to allow use of the ground fault features, so I don’t know. In regards to CC float termination, it links each CC so that the first one to float causes the others to go into float as well. I’ve never found it to be a big deal either way. Charge termination is the other one which I always defeat. But sounds like it all working. Jay > On Sep 9, 2024, at 7:21 AM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  The original system installed in 2016 was: > _________________________________________ > 1 - 48v/2490ahr HUP Solar One battery bank > 24 - 280watt Solar World PV mods. > 2 - Wattson trackers (I live in a SW x NE canyon; sun rises late, 9:30-10:00 in winter & sets at 4:00) It’s a narrow window hence the addition of trackers has been the ticket, also due to zoning regs & the entire property at a 14* slope I did not have the space to that much of a ground mount > 1 - 8048 Radian prewired board with 2 - FM80 Charge controllers > > The upgrade is replacing 2-CC & the 24-PV mods: > _______________________________________ > 2 - FM100 as I am going over 4320w per CC & at -25*F as could be 5,180+/-w per CC. > 24 - 360watt REC PV mods. > _______________________________________________________________________________________ > The system has worked flawlessly since 2016 including finishing original construction on home, shop, greenhouse, & garage and only 4-6 hours of backup generator for the entire winter season. > The upgrade is precipitated by strong possibility that my wonderful but seriously failing 87-year old mother in law may be joining us for the final countdown of her life. > > On Sunday I added the negative wire to the PV input & took the FM100 out of Global Coordination per Mavericks suggestion. The day was filled with lots of small cumulus so not a great charging day, but the system appeared to have straightened out & I was getting significantly more [900-1000 w] out of the system than with the FM80 CCs (interesting). Perhaps, this was due to the cooling effect of shaded & then in the sun & back again though at 4:00 I finally had a solid sun & 6.2KW coming in at 85*F which is much higher than with the FM 80 CC at same temps. Typically the input would have been 5.4KW at 85*F. Or was this adding the negative wire to the PV input? > > Can anyone provide clarity on the taking the FM100s out of Global Coordination? Would this allow Tapering the final charge off better? > > Today is clear & forecast for full sun. I will report back as I will come back from a new project we are doing around the corner for lunch. > > _________________________________________________________ > Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! > C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com > W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com > “Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!” > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dana Orzel > Sent: Monday, September 9, 2024 6:43 AM > To: Dana Orzel > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fm100’s stuck at full charge > > > Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 > >> On Sep 8, 2024, at 10:53 PM, Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Dana, >> >> You must have quite a bit of PV to switch out to 2 FM100's. You didn't mention what is the size of your battery and its chemistry, what's you C-rate? If you're charging a large Lead acid battery and maybe it was discharged pretty deep and/or you have substantial loads once you hit absorb, once its reached absorb it may continue to process pretty high amps to hold that voltage as it works on finish charging a large pack up to 100%. How long is it putting out 2800 watts per CC? >> >> Obviously this doesn't apply with L-ion >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, owner >> 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) >> 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) >> CA. C10 Lic # 874049 >> Solar Powered since 1982 >> Home of the Sunny Side Up >> >>>> On 9/7/2024 3:49 PM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> OK, you wise guys. >>> I am upgrading my home off grid system from two FM 80s to two FM 100s. >>> The FM 80s were able to share the negative wire so you didn’t have to pull a second negative wire. >>> I wired the FM 100 typical of how my FM 80s were wired with a number four battery negative assuming and yes, I know what happens when I assume, that the PV negative on the battery negative are common and I could just pull one number four since going through those double 1” - 90° is a bitch. Currently I have two # fours for output to battery, the number eight ground and 1 # six PV input. >>> I got this all together and it’s charging just fine but once the battery got full charge controllers continued to produce full output. The battery dropped to a float and I had 2800W on each charge controller continuing to be produced at which was turning into heat so the FM 100s were getting very warm. The fans had not turned on, but the heat sinks were definitely very very warm to the touch. The battery voltage is fine. >>> I Read the manual it doesn’t talk about being able to use one negative so I am assuming that my problem is that the PV needs a negative and they do not share the negative. >>> Has anybody else seen this or done the same wiring maneuver. >>> thanks in advance >>> >>> Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> -- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> www.avast.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Sep 10 19:37:32 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2024 19:37:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Powerwall 3 Message-ID: Certified Powerwall installers, Can the PW3 be commissioned for for a completely off-grid system with DC coupled solar panels with no MCIs. If so, do you need a Gateway 2/3, or can it operate autonomously in this scenario without a Gateway? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Sep 10 20:02:17 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2024 17:02:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Powerwall 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <95dba4b9508f37511139d8b87606c82a@sti.net> I hear 3 still can't use a generator from youtube. Pretty cool other than that. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-09-10 4:37 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > Certified Powerwall installers, > > Can the PW3 be commissioned for for a completely off-grid system with > DC coupled solar panels with no MCIs. If so, do you need a Gateway 2/3, > or can it operate autonomously in this scenario without a Gateway? > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Sep 10 20:18:23 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2024 20:18:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Powerwall 3 In-Reply-To: <95dba4b9508f37511139d8b87606c82a@sti.net> References: <95dba4b9508f37511139d8b87606c82a@sti.net> Message-ID: Correct, but there are some off-grid scenarios where a generator with a transfer switch would be an adequate redundancy for rare solar/battery capacity deficiencies. On Tue, Sep 10, 2024, 8:02 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I hear 3 still can't use a generator from youtube. Pretty cool other than > that. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2024-09-10 4:37 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Certified Powerwall installers, > > Can the PW3 be commissioned for for a completely off-grid system with DC > coupled solar panels with no MCIs. If so, do you need a Gateway 2/3, or can > it operate autonomously in this scenario without a Gateway? > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Tue Sep 10 22:40:42 2024 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2024 22:40:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Powerwall 3 In-Reply-To: References: <95dba4b9508f37511139d8b87606c82a@sti.net> Message-ID: Last time I spoke with Tesla, they did not support either fully off-grid or installations not connect to the internet. Have they changed their policy on this? On Tue, Sep 10, 2024 at 8:19 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Correct, but there are some off-grid scenarios where a generator with a > transfer switch would be an adequate redundancy for rare solar/battery > capacity deficiencies. > > On Tue, Sep 10, 2024, 8:02 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I hear 3 still can't use a generator from youtube. Pretty cool other than >> that. >> >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> >> On 2024-09-10 4:37 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Certified Powerwall installers, >> >> Can the PW3 be commissioned for for a completely off-grid system with DC >> coupled solar panels with no MCIs. If so, do you need a Gateway 2/3, or can >> it operate autonomously in this scenario without a Gateway? >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vincentj at cobaltpower.com Wed Sep 11 16:14:04 2024 From: vincentj at cobaltpower.com (Vincent Jolissaint) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2024 13:14:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Powerwall 3 Message-ID: Hi Jason, Currently Tesla doesnt allow any totally off grid installations, they used to support this through the GW2 but no longer do. In addition, the Powerwall 3 will req >From: Jason Szumlanski >To: RE-wrenches >Subject: [RE-wrenches] Powerwall 3 >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >Certified Powerwall installers, >Can the PW3 be commissioned for for a completely off-grid system with DC >coupled solar panels with no MCIs. If so, do you need a Gateway 2/3, or can >it operate autonomously in this scenario without a Gateway? > >Jason Szumlanski >Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vincentj at cobaltpower.com Wed Sep 11 16:17:38 2024 From: vincentj at cobaltpower.com (Vincent Jolissaint) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2024 13:17:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Powerwall 3 (contd) Message-ID: (sorry sent the previous reply before it was complete) Hi Jason, Currently Tesla doesn't allow any totally off-grid installations with PW3 or PW3, they used to support this through the Gateway but no longer do. In addition, the Powerwall 3 will require at least a single MCI per string to pass the self test function. This also limits the total string loop length from MPPT+ to MPPT-. Powerwall 3 does contain the site controller, but it will require some islanding contactor to function properly. *Vince Jolissaint |* *Director of CAD Services* 2557 Wyandotte Street | Mountain View, CA 94043 Office: 650.938.9574 | Email: vincentj at cobaltpower.com >From: Jason Szumlanski >To: RE-wrenches >Subject: [RE-wrenches] Powerwall 3 >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >Certified Powerwall installers, >Can the PW3 be commissioned for for a completely off-grid system with DC >coupled solar panels with no MCIs. If so, do you need a Gateway 2/3, or can >it operate autonomously in this scenario without a Gateway? > >Jason Szumlanski >Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Sep 11 16:42:47 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2024 20:42:47 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Powerwall 3 (contd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <70929283-0f8f-f810-c3c7-9716cfd0e77b@floridasolardesigngroup.com> Thanks, Vincent. This is the information I needed. I did read that at least 1 MCI is needed even if you do not require RSD. The MCI instructions are a bit confusing. I know for RSD you need one at the start of a string and at least one every three modules, but it's unclear if you need the MCI-1 or MCI-2 when using the GW3. The reason I was thinking about an off-grid application is I want to use one PW3 in a mobile application (for myself). I was thinking about tricking it into working, but I think it would take a PW3, GW2 or GW3, and an AC source to commission it initially. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Sep 11, 2024 at 4:18 PM Vincent Jolissaint via RE-wrenches wrote: > (sorry sent the previous reply before it was complete) > Hi Jason, > > > Currently Tesla doesn't allow any totally off-grid installations with PW3 or > PW3, they used to support this through the Gateway but no longer do. > > > In addition, the Powerwall 3 will require at least a single MCI per string to > pass the self test function. This also limits the total string loop length > from MPPT+ to MPPT-. > > > Powerwall 3 does contain the site controller, but it will require some > islanding contactor to function properly. > > > > Vince Jolissaint | Director of CAD Services > > 2557 Wyandotte Street | Mountain View, CA  94043 > Office: 650.938.9574 | Email: vincentj at cobaltpower.com > [vincentj at cobaltpower.com] > > > > >From: Jason Szumlanski [jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com]> > >To: RE-wrenches [re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org]> > >Subject: [RE-wrenches] Powerwall 3 > >Message-ID: >  >        [Rkk6k%2BwJw at mail.gmail.com]> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > >Certified Powerwall installers, > > >Can the PW3 be commissioned for for a completely off-grid system with DC > >coupled solar panels with no MCIs. If so, do you need a Gateway 2/3, or can > >it operate autonomously in this scenario without a Gateway? > > > >Jason Szumlanski > >Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > > > > > [https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/meips/ADKq_NYyrS6RofltBUHUSIQy0DQoaeJEEJsfGMzwioB0sV1KMW1aBizCOo6t1WDPbr4TW63jyVqegVwle2gFmUFljs_UAas5w4jLLRcc2-Hf8kHM1WOO=s0-d-e1-ft#https://www.cobaltpower.com/images/logos/Transparent-Logo.png] > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [http://re-wrenches.org] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > [RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vincentj at cobaltpower.com Thu Sep 12 16:22:45 2024 From: vincentj at cobaltpower.com (Vincent Jolissaint) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2024 13:22:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Powerwall 3 Message-ID: Jason, There are 2 different methods typically utilized, one specified by Tesla for any UL2703 module/racking combination which is as you say and limits the MCI to 165V, which is the tested disconnect limit of the MCI-2. If you use the MCI-1 then you have an additional option of using the 3741 PVHCS listing of another manufacturer such as Ironridge. Since the MCI-1 has a 600V disconnect limit, you can safely use just (2) MCI-1 on a string, one at the beginning and end, as long as the array is physically contiguous with no gaps larger than 2' between adjacent modules. The GW2/3 is irrelevant to the MCI question, as the Powerwall 3 inverter sends its keep alive signal with PLC over the DC wiring. I think you could make a temporary off grid system work well enough if you simply commissioned it with grid voltage, then removed the grid, but kept the islanding contactor intact. Either GW3/GW2 or the Backup Switch in a meter socket enclosure could serve as this contactor, to keep the PW3 happy and in communication with "the grid." On a separate note, the details and testing of a 3741 PVHCS listing probably means that module level rapid shutdown never added much first responders safety compared with rooftop shutdown at within 1' of the array group. I have seen others on this list agree to as much and the test labs basically validate this in my eyes. From: Jason Szumlanski To: "RE-wrenches" Cc: Vincent Jolissaint Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Powerwall 3 (contd) Message-ID: <70929283-0f8f-f810-c3c7-9716cfd0e77b at floridasolardesigngroup.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Thanks,?Vincent. This is the information I needed. I did read that at least 1 MCI is needed even if you do not require RSD. The MCI instructions are a bit confusing. I know for RSD you need one at the start of a string and at least one every three modules, but it's unclear if you need the MCI-1 or MCI-2 when using the GW3. The reason I was thinking about an off-grid application is I want to use one PW3 in a mobile application (for myself). I was thinking about tricking it into working, but I think it would?take a?PW3, GW2 or GW3, and an AC source to?commission it initially. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Sep 11, 2024 at 4:18?PM Vincent Jolissaint via RE-wrenches wrote: > (sorry sent the previous reply before it was complete) > Hi Jason, > > > Currently Tesla doesn't allow any totally off-grid installations with PW3 or > PW3, they used to support this through the Gateway but no longer do. > > > In addition, the Powerwall 3 will require at least a single MCI per string to > pass the self?test function. This also limits the total string loop length > from MPPT+ to MPPT-. > > > Powerwall 3 does contain the site controller, but it will require some > islanding contactor to function properly. > > > > Vince Jolissaint?|?Director of CAD Services > > 2557 Wyandotte Street | Mountain View, CA? 94043 > Office:?650.938.9574 | Email:?vincentj at cobaltpower.com > [vincentj at cobaltpower.com] > > > > >From: Jason Szumlanski [jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com]> > >To: RE-wrenches [re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org]> > >Subject: [RE-wrenches] Powerwall 3 > >Message-ID: > ?>? ? ? ? [Rkk6k%2BwJw at mail.gmail.com]> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > >Certified Powerwall installers, > > >Can the PW3 be commissioned for for a completely off-grid system with DC > >coupled solar panels with no MCIs. If so, do you need a Gateway 2/3, or can > >it operate autonomously in this scenario without a Gateway? > > > >Jason Szumlanski > >Florida Solar Design Group *Vince Jolissaint |* *Director of CAD Services* 2557 Wyandotte Street | Mountain View, CA 94043 Office: 650.938.9574 | Email: vincentj at cobaltpower.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Thu Sep 12 20:36:37 2024 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2024 19:36:37 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15KW is rock steady, but crazy wild grid voltages when connected to grid Message-ID: <006901db0574$feaac030$fc004090$@solarcentex.com> I have Sol-Ark 15KW with 31kwh battery has been installed for year+. Customer has for two days been having grid voltage issue seen as dimming lights. No neighbors reporting issues. He called his electrician who noted one high conductor and the other low. Have seen this before unrelated to solar and it was a bad neutral. His electrician says ok. Customer disconnects from the grid because the fluctuations so severe and when he does, voltage issues go away and Sol-Ark is rock steady at 120-volts per leg. I send my senior tech over to ensure we don't have a loose neutral or any grid conductors to the grid input. Nothing found. Picture attached of grid voltages from the Sol-Ark monitoring (very helpful, I might add.) The electric cooperative is sending a tech out tomorrow. Any body have insight or history with this? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 136365 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: v deviations.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 71634 bytes Desc: not available URL: From blake at sunlightandpower.com Thu Sep 12 21:40:33 2024 From: blake at sunlightandpower.com (Blake Gleason) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2024 18:40:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15KW is rock steady, but crazy wild grid voltages when connected to grid In-Reply-To: <006901db0574$feaac030$fc004090$@solarcentex.com> References: <006901db0574$feaac030$fc004090$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: Definitely sounds like a loose neutral on the utility side (likely at the pole/tap). I suspect if you turn off and disconnect the Sol-Ark the light flickering, etc will continue (until the utility recrimps their neutral...) Blake On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 5:38 PM Scot Arey via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I have Sol-Ark 15KW with 31kwh battery has been installed for year+. > > > > Customer has for two days been having grid voltage issue seen as dimming > lights. No neighbors reporting issues. He called his electrician who noted > one high conductor and the other low. Have seen this before unrelated to > solar and it was a bad neutral. His electrician says ok. > > Customer disconnects from the grid because the fluctuations so severe and > when he does, voltage issues go away and Sol-Ark is rock steady at > 120-volts per leg. I send my senior tech over to ensure we don’t have a > loose neutral or any grid conductors to the grid input. Nothing found. > > Picture attached of grid voltages from the Sol-Ark monitoring (very > helpful, I might add.) > > The electric cooperative is sending a tech out tomorrow. Any body have > insight or history with this? > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Blake Gleason, PE | Employee Owner Director of Innovation and Technical Excellence O: 510-845-2997 x128 C: 510-867-5878 1035 Folger Ave. Berkeley, CA 94710 www.sunlightandpower.com License #326203 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 136365 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kirpal at oregonsolarworks.com Thu Sep 12 21:54:30 2024 From: kirpal at oregonsolarworks.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2024 18:54:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15KW is rock steady, but crazy wild grid voltages when connected to grid In-Reply-To: References: <006901db0574$feaac030$fc004090$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: Scot, We have had numerous SolArk 15k's with loose neutrals direct from the factory. Double check all the factory connections in the accessible wiring compartment. I brought it to their attention each time I found it. They said they would do better on quality control bit obviously never heard back after that. Keep us posted what you find. Thanks Kirpal Khalsa Oregon Solarworks On Thu, Sep 12, 2024, 6:41 PM Blake Gleason via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Definitely sounds like a loose neutral on the utility side (likely at the > pole/tap). > > I suspect if you turn off and disconnect the Sol-Ark the light flickering, > etc will continue (until the utility recrimps their neutral...) > > Blake > > On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 5:38 PM Scot Arey via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I have Sol-Ark 15KW with 31kwh battery has been installed for year+. >> >> >> >> Customer has for two days been having grid voltage issue seen as dimming >> lights. No neighbors reporting issues. He called his electrician who noted >> one high conductor and the other low. Have seen this before unrelated to >> solar and it was a bad neutral. His electrician says ok. >> >> Customer disconnects from the grid because the fluctuations so severe and >> when he does, voltage issues go away and Sol-Ark is rock steady at >> 120-volts per leg. I send my senior tech over to ensure we don’t have a >> loose neutral or any grid conductors to the grid input. Nothing found. >> >> Picture attached of grid voltages from the Sol-Ark monitoring (very >> helpful, I might add.) >> >> The electric cooperative is sending a tech out tomorrow. Any body have >> insight or history with this? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Blake Gleason, PE | Employee Owner > Director of Innovation and Technical Excellence > O: 510-845-2997 x128 > C: 510-867-5878 > > > > 1035 Folger Ave. > > Berkeley, CA 94710 > > www.sunlightandpower.com > License #326203 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 136365 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri Sep 13 06:33:32 2024 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2024 06:33:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15KW is rock steady, but crazy wild grid voltages when connected to grid In-Reply-To: References: <006901db0574$feaac030$fc004090$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: <39dbcd04c2b8b8ed9ec4a4e44f638e86@redwoodalliance.org> Check for voltage fluctuation at the main lugs, right where the service cable comes in from the meter. --- _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ On 2024-09-12 21:54, Kirpal Khalsa via RE-wrenches wrote: > Scot, > We have had numerous SolArk 15k's with loose neutrals direct from the > factory. Double check all the factory connections in the accessible > wiring compartment. I brought it to their attention each time I found > it. They said they would do better on quality control bit obviously > never heard back after that. > Keep us posted what you find. > Thanks > > Kirpal Khalsa > Oregon Solarworks > > On Thu, Sep 12, 2024, 6:41 PM Blake Gleason via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Definitely sounds like a loose neutral on the utility side (likely at > the pole/tap). > > I suspect if you turn off and disconnect the Sol-Ark the light > flickering, etc will continue (until the utility recrimps their > neutral...) > > Blake > > On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 5:38 PM Scot Arey via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > I have Sol-Ark 15KW with 31kwh battery has been installed for year+. > > Customer has for two days been having grid voltage issue seen as > dimming lights. No neighbors reporting issues. He called his > electrician who noted one high conductor and the other low. Have seen > this before unrelated to solar and it was a bad neutral. His > electrician says ok. > > Customer disconnects from the grid because the fluctuations so severe > and when he does, voltage issues go away and Sol-Ark is rock steady at > 120-volts per leg. I send my senior tech over to ensure we don't have a > loose neutral or any grid conductors to the grid input. Nothing found. > > Picture attached of grid voltages from the Sol-Ark monitoring (very > helpful, I might add.) > > The electric cooperative is sending a tech out tomorrow. Any body have > insight or history with this? > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > > Blake Gleason, PE | Employee Owner > Director of Innovation and Technical Excellence > O: 510-845-2997 x128 > C: 510-867-5878 > > [1] > > [2] > > 1035 Folger Ave. [3] > Berkeley, CA 94710 [3] > www.sunlightandpower.com [1] > License #326203 > > [4] [5] [6] _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.sunlightandpower.com/ [2] https://linktr.ee/SLP_Socials [3] https://www.google.com/maps/search/1035+Folger+Ave.+Berkeley,+CA+94710?entry=gmail&source=g [4] https://benefitcorporationsforgood.com/ [5] https://www.amicussolar.com/ [6] https://calssa.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 136365 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Fri Sep 13 07:33:47 2024 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2024 07:33:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15KW is rock steady, but crazy wild grid voltages when connected to grid In-Reply-To: <006901db0574$feaac030$fc004090$@solarcentex.com> References: <006901db0574$feaac030$fc004090$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: <002a01db05d0$cd78bce0$686a36a0$@mindspring.com> Scot We had this exact same thing happen last year with a 15. Voltage swings got pretty wild. It was a bad neutral in the meter base. Older meter base that had leaked and the neutral was a bar that compressed against the back of the base. Corroded and gunked up from the years of that small leak, needed a new meter base. Peter Giroux American Solar From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Scot Arey via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2024 8:37 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Cc: scot.arey at solarcentex.com Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15KW is rock steady, but crazy wild grid voltages when connected to grid I have Sol-Ark 15KW with 31kwh battery has been installed for year+. Customer has for two days been having grid voltage issue seen as dimming lights. No neighbors reporting issues. He called his electrician who noted one high conductor and the other low. Have seen this before unrelated to solar and it was a bad neutral. His electrician says ok. Customer disconnects from the grid because the fluctuations so severe and when he does, voltage issues go away and Sol-Ark is rock steady at 120-volts per leg. I send my senior tech over to ensure we don't have a loose neutral or any grid conductors to the grid input. Nothing found. Picture attached of grid voltages from the Sol-Ark monitoring (very helpful, I might add.) The electric cooperative is sending a tech out tomorrow. Any body have insight or history with this? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 136365 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Sep 13 08:35:01 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2024 12:35:01 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15KW is rock steady, but crazy wild grid voltages when connected to grid In-Reply-To: <002a01db05d0$cd78bce0$686a36a0$@mindspring.com> References: <006901db0574$feaac030$fc004090$@solarcentex.com> <002a01db05d0$cd78bce0$686a36a0$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <6684de63-c87c-2c84-4dd6-f74c11a2debe@floridasolardesigngroup.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment-1.png Type: image/png Size: 148793 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Sep 13 08:41:17 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2024 08:41:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15KW is rock steady, but crazy wild grid voltages when connected to grid In-Reply-To: <6684de63-c87c-2c84-4dd6-f74c11a2debe@floridasolardesigngroup.com> References: <006901db0574$feaac030$fc004090$@solarcentex.com> <002a01db05d0$cd78bce0$686a36a0$@mindspring.com> <6684de63-c87c-2c84-4dd6-f74c11a2debe@floridasolardesigngroup.com> Message-ID: By the way, you can test this yourself and possibly track it down to whether it's the meter base or the transformer connection. Shut off all loads and plug in a hair dryer to a 120V circuit. Measure the voltage. If it sags on that line and rises on the other, you have a loose neutral, but you still don't know if it's on the customer side or the utility side. Find a friendly neighbor on the same transformer. Ask them if they are having issues and offer to test their voltages to protect their appliances. Do the same at their house. This is how we tracked down an issue in Cape Coral, FL for a client and proved to the utility (who initially said the voltage was fine) that there must be something wrong at the pole. Sure enough - they found a melted tap connector on the neutral. We would have never known, except the customer's Enphase System Controller was going haywire because it detected a line-side voltage issue. We probably saved a bunch of appliances for multiple utility customers. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Fri, Sep 13, 2024 at 8:35 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Yep, sounds like a loose neutral either at the utility pole or the meter > socket. > > Around here the utility companies have a meter that they plug in to the > socket that has two "hair dryers" internal to the meter to test for a loose > neutral. They shut off the main disconnect to the house, plug in the test > rig, and test the heating element on each leg. If there is a voltage > sag/rise, it's a loose neutral somewhere. The voltage drop on one leg will > be proportional to the rise on the other leg. > > Look up "Super Beast from HJ Arnett Industries." > > We had tons of these problems after Hurricane Ian. The linesmen from out > of state who were assisting the locals were doing whatever it took to > restore residential services, including using insulation piercing taps at > the transformer. These don't meet the local service standards that require > crimped connections. We saw plenty of people with destroyed appliances. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Fri, Sep 13, 2024 at 7:34 AM Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Scot >> >> >> >> We had this exact same thing happen last year with a 15. Voltage swings >> got pretty wild. It was a bad neutral in the meter base. Older meter base >> that had leaked and the neutral was a bar that compressed against the back >> of the base. Corroded and gunked up from the years of that small leak, >> needed a new meter base. >> >> >> >> Peter Giroux >> >> American Solar >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >> Behalf Of *Scot Arey via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Thursday, September 12, 2024 8:37 PM >> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' >> *Cc:* scot.arey at solarcentex.com >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15KW is rock steady, but crazy wild >> grid voltages when connected to grid >> >> >> >> I have Sol-Ark 15KW with 31kwh battery has been installed for year+. >> >> >> >> Customer has for two days been having grid voltage issue seen as dimming >> lights. No neighbors reporting issues. He called his electrician who noted >> one high conductor and the other low. Have seen this before unrelated to >> solar and it was a bad neutral. His electrician says ok. >> >> Customer disconnects from the grid because the fluctuations so severe and >> when he does, voltage issues go away and Sol-Ark is rock steady at >> 120-volts per leg. I send my senior tech over to ensure we don’t have a >> loose neutral or any grid conductors to the grid input. Nothing found. >> >> Picture attached of grid voltages from the Sol-Ark monitoring (very >> helpful, I might add.) >> >> The electric cooperative is sending a tech out tomorrow. Any body have >> insight or history with this? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment-1.png Type: image/png Size: 148793 bytes Desc: not available URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Fri Sep 13 15:25:20 2024 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2024 14:25:20 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15KW is rock steady, but crazy wild grid voltages when connected to grid In-Reply-To: References: <006901db0574$feaac030$fc004090$@solarcentex.com> <002a01db05d0$cd78bce0$686a36a0$@mindspring.com> <6684de63-c87c-2c84-4dd6-f74c11a2debe@floridasolardesigngroup.com> Message-ID: <07de01db0612$aca34200$05e9c600$@solarcentex.com> Feedback to the group: utility replaced neutral from transformer to meter and all is fine. Utility didn’t give feedback but the Sol-Ark 120-volt during “off-grid” moved up to normal grid voltage of 124v when reconnected and its staying steady on both legs. Thanks for feedback! Scot From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, September 13, 2024 7:41 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jason Szumlanski Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15KW is rock steady, but crazy wild grid voltages when connected to grid By the way, you can test this yourself and possibly track it down to whether it's the meter base or the transformer connection. Shut off all loads and plug in a hair dryer to a 120V circuit. Measure the voltage. If it sags on that line and rises on the other, you have a loose neutral, but you still don't know if it's on the customer side or the utility side. Find a friendly neighbor on the same transformer. Ask them if they are having issues and offer to test their voltages to protect their appliances. Do the same at their house. This is how we tracked down an issue in Cape Coral, FL for a client and proved to the utility (who initially said the voltage was fine) that there must be something wrong at the pole. Sure enough - they found a melted tap connector on the neutral. We would have never known, except the customer's Enphase System Controller was going haywire because it detected a line-side voltage issue. We probably saved a bunch of appliances for multiple utility customers. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Fri, Sep 13, 2024 at 8:35 AM Jason Szumlanski > wrote: Yep, sounds like a loose neutral either at the utility pole or the meter socket. Around here the utility companies have a meter that they plug in to the socket that has two "hair dryers" internal to the meter to test for a loose neutral. They shut off the main disconnect to the house, plug in the test rig, and test the heating element on each leg. If there is a voltage sag/rise, it's a loose neutral somewhere. The voltage drop on one leg will be proportional to the rise on the other leg. Look up "Super Beast from HJ Arnett Industries." We had tons of these problems after Hurricane Ian. The linesmen from out of state who were assisting the locals were doing whatever it took to restore residential services, including using insulation piercing taps at the transformer. These don't meet the local service standards that require crimped connections. We saw plenty of people with destroyed appliances. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Fri, Sep 13, 2024 at 7:34 AM Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches > wrote: Scot We had this exact same thing happen last year with a 15. Voltage swings got pretty wild. It was a bad neutral in the meter base. Older meter base that had leaked and the neutral was a bar that compressed against the back of the base. Corroded and gunked up from the years of that small leak, needed a new meter base. Peter Giroux American Solar From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Scot Arey via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2024 8:37 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' > Cc: scot.arey at solarcentex.com Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15KW is rock steady, but crazy wild grid voltages when connected to grid I have Sol-Ark 15KW with 31kwh battery has been installed for year+. Customer has for two days been having grid voltage issue seen as dimming lights. No neighbors reporting issues. He called his electrician who noted one high conductor and the other low. Have seen this before unrelated to solar and it was a bad neutral. His electrician says ok. Customer disconnects from the grid because the fluctuations so severe and when he does, voltage issues go away and Sol-Ark is rock steady at 120-volts per leg. I send my senior tech over to ensure we don’t have a loose neutral or any grid conductors to the grid input. Nothing found. Picture attached of grid voltages from the Sol-Ark monitoring (very helpful, I might add.) The electric cooperative is sending a tech out tomorrow. Any body have insight or history with this? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 42 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 148793 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Mon Sep 16 14:26:31 2024 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2024 14:26:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue Planet Energy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Has anyone had successful contact with Blue Planet in recent weeks? Jody from their tech support division does not seem to be working there any more and the company main phone number is giving a bizarre message loop that doesn’t allow you to actually speak to anyone…. On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 10:33 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > They called me today to sell me more batteries but they can’t fix my SMA > system. > > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 5:35 PM Kirpal Khalsa via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi Folks.... >> Anyone else having trouble getting ahold of Blue Planet Energy? They >> aren't returning calls even to sell new product....I am wondering if they >> are still a going concern.... >> With all the changes these days I am.just buckling in for the solar >> coaster ride!!! >> Thanks! >> Kirpal >> Oregon Solarworks >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Mon Sep 16 14:28:02 2024 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2024 11:28:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue Planet Energy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Based on what I heard at RE+, they are no longer in operation. This may be rumor, but based on the folks I heard it from I believe it. Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org On Mon, Sep 16, 2024 at 11:26 AM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Has anyone had successful contact with Blue Planet in recent weeks? Jody > from their tech support division does not seem to be working there any more > and the company main phone number is giving a bizarre message loop that > doesn’t allow you to actually speak to anyone…. > > On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 10:33 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> They called me today to sell me more batteries but they can’t fix my SMA >> system. >> >> >> William Miller >> Miller Solar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 5:35 PM Kirpal Khalsa via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi Folks.... >>> Anyone else having trouble getting ahold of Blue Planet Energy? They >>> aren't returning calls even to sell new product....I am wondering if they >>> are still a going concern.... >>> With all the changes these days I am.just buckling in for the solar >>> coaster ride!!! >>> Thanks! >>> Kirpal >>> Oregon Solarworks >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Sep 16 14:32:23 2024 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2024 11:32:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue Planet Energy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: They were all at SPI/ RE last week most likely On Mon, Sep 16, 2024, 11:29 AM Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Based on what I heard at RE+, they are no longer in operation. This may be > rumor, but based on the folks I heard it from I believe it. > > Brian Mehalic > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 > National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member > (520) 204-6639 > > Solar Energy International > http://www.solarenergy.org > > > > On Mon, Sep 16, 2024 at 11:26 AM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Has anyone had successful contact with Blue Planet in recent weeks? Jody >> from their tech support division does not seem to be working there any more >> and the company main phone number is giving a bizarre message loop that >> doesn’t allow you to actually speak to anyone…. >> >> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 10:33 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> They called me today to sell me more batteries but they can’t fix my SMA >>> system. >>> >>> >>> William Miller >>> Miller Solar.com >>> 805-438-5600 >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 5:35 PM Kirpal Khalsa via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Folks.... >>>> Anyone else having trouble getting ahold of Blue Planet Energy? They >>>> aren't returning calls even to sell new product....I am wondering if they >>>> are still a going concern.... >>>> With all the changes these days I am.just buckling in for the solar >>>> coaster ride!!! >>>> Thanks! >>>> Kirpal >>>> Oregon Solarworks >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From blake at sunlightandpower.com Mon Sep 16 14:32:11 2024 From: blake at sunlightandpower.com (Blake Gleason) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2024 11:32:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue Planet Energy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: FWIW, we were interacting with them last week for a commercial project (re-commissioning). I have an email from Andrea Galassi from four days ago, arranging on-site support from Ben Widmer for this week or next. They are slow to respond, but that's always been the case in my experience... Blake On Mon, Sep 16, 2024 at 11:28 AM Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Based on what I heard at RE+, they are no longer in operation. This may be > rumor, but based on the folks I heard it from I believe it. > > Brian Mehalic > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 > National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member > (520) 204-6639 > > Solar Energy International > http://www.solarenergy.org > > > > On Mon, Sep 16, 2024 at 11:26 AM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Has anyone had successful contact with Blue Planet in recent weeks? Jody >> from their tech support division does not seem to be working there any more >> and the company main phone number is giving a bizarre message loop that >> doesn’t allow you to actually speak to anyone…. >> >> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 10:33 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> They called me today to sell me more batteries but they can’t fix my SMA >>> system. >>> >>> >>> William Miller >>> Miller Solar.com >>> 805-438-5600 >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 5:35 PM Kirpal Khalsa via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Folks.... >>>> Anyone else having trouble getting ahold of Blue Planet Energy? They >>>> aren't returning calls even to sell new product....I am wondering if they >>>> are still a going concern.... >>>> With all the changes these days I am.just buckling in for the solar >>>> coaster ride!!! >>>> Thanks! >>>> Kirpal >>>> Oregon Solarworks >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Blake Gleason, PE | Employee Owner Director of Innovation and Technical Excellence O: 510-845-2997 x128 C: 510-867-5878 1035 Folger Ave. Berkeley, CA 94710 www.sunlightandpower.com License #326203 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Mon Sep 16 14:35:34 2024 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2024 14:35:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue Planet Energy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Not surprising given their pricing structure. If this is true, I assume their 15 year warranty is the equivalent of vaporware. And I'm glad I only have 1 installation left with their product. Howie On Mon, Sep 16, 2024, 2:29 PM Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Based on what I heard at RE+, they are no longer in operation. This may be > rumor, but based on the folks I heard it from I believe it. > > Brian Mehalic > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 > National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member > (520) 204-6639 > > Solar Energy International > http://www.solarenergy.org > > > > On Mon, Sep 16, 2024 at 11:26 AM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Has anyone had successful contact with Blue Planet in recent weeks? Jody >> from their tech support division does not seem to be working there any more >> and the company main phone number is giving a bizarre message loop that >> doesn’t allow you to actually speak to anyone…. >> >> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 10:33 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> They called me today to sell me more batteries but they can’t fix my SMA >>> system. >>> >>> >>> William Miller >>> Miller Solar.com >>> 805-438-5600 >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 5:35 PM Kirpal Khalsa via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Folks.... >>>> Anyone else having trouble getting ahold of Blue Planet Energy? They >>>> aren't returning calls even to sell new product....I am wondering if they >>>> are still a going concern.... >>>> With all the changes these days I am.just buckling in for the solar >>>> coaster ride!!! >>>> Thanks! >>>> Kirpal >>>> Oregon Solarworks >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Mon Sep 16 14:54:23 2024 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2024 14:54:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue Planet Energy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It was about a month ago that I tried reaching out and was getting that weird phone message that does not allow you to get anywhere. I called my sales rep who told me off the record that they basically imploded and all employees were told not to come in. He is now working somewhere else. A couple weeks later, I did get a message from Jody on the original question that I had, but after following up, I have not heard anything since. Cheers, Dave On Mon, Sep 16, 2024 at 2:37 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Not surprising given their pricing structure. If this is true, I assume > their 15 year warranty is the equivalent of vaporware. And I'm glad I only > have 1 installation left with their product. > Howie > > On Mon, Sep 16, 2024, 2:29 PM Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Based on what I heard at RE+, they are no longer in operation. This may >> be rumor, but based on the folks I heard it from I believe it. >> >> Brian Mehalic >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 >> National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member >> (520) 204-6639 >> >> Solar Energy International >> http://www.solarenergy.org >> >> >> >> On Mon, Sep 16, 2024 at 11:26 AM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Has anyone had successful contact with Blue Planet in recent weeks? Jody >>> from their tech support division does not seem to be working there any more >>> and the company main phone number is giving a bizarre message loop that >>> doesn’t allow you to actually speak to anyone…. >>> >>> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 10:33 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> They called me today to sell me more batteries but they can’t fix my >>>> SMA system. >>>> >>>> >>>> William Miller >>>> Miller Solar.com >>>> 805-438-5600 >>>> www.millersolar.com >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 5:35 PM Kirpal Khalsa via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Folks.... >>>>> Anyone else having trouble getting ahold of Blue Planet Energy? They >>>>> aren't returning calls even to sell new product....I am wondering if they >>>>> are still a going concern.... >>>>> With all the changes these days I am.just buckling in for the solar >>>>> coaster ride!!! >>>>> Thanks! >>>>> Kirpal >>>>> Oregon Solarworks >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Mon Sep 16 19:30:24 2024 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2024 19:30:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OB Radian / FM60 grid tie mystery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Solved the problem. Somehow the "sell current limit" in the grid interface protection menu, a hidden menu only accessed by creating a new installer login code, was set to 7.5 a. I reset it to the max of 30a, and the system sells normally again. I read on an outback forum this parameter can change as a result of a GS8048 firmware upgrade. Go figure. On Sun, Aug 18, 2024 at 1:11 PM Kirk Herander wrote: > Hello All, > . > I have a Radian 8048 system in service for over 10 years now. It sold back > quite normally until the last several months -3.- FM60 CC's are set to grid > tie mode and viewable and programmed from the Mate3s / OpticsRE. This > issue loosely correlates to replacing one of the CCs several months ago. > > Trouble is all -3- charge controllers are almost always in a float mode. > The radian does sell, but at a small KW compared to what it used to before > the frequent float mode started popping up. If I remember correctly, > ideally the CCs should always be in bulk charge when sellback occurs. > > I have the CC and inverter charger float set to about 1 vdc higher then > the inverter's sell volts, as I believe was recommended way back when. Hard > to understand what changed, but something did. I've checked the relevant > setpoints many times and can't find anything obviously amiss. > > Does a sell mode tech note paper exist still for the Radian system? Did it > ever? Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. > > > > > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Mon Sep 16 20:03:03 2024 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2024 19:03:03 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OB Radian / FM60 grid tie mystery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1BD55772-0AFB-47B6-BD99-B7081861297B@mavericksolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: preview.png Type: image/png Size: 249732 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Mon Sep 16 20:16:42 2024 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2024 20:16:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OB Radian / FM60 grid tie mystery In-Reply-To: <1BD55772-0AFB-47B6-BD99-B7081861297B@mavericksolar.com> References: <1BD55772-0AFB-47B6-BD99-B7081861297B@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: The 4x reduction (30 to 7.5A max sell change) makes perfect sense now. On Mon, Sep 16, 2024 at 8:03 PM Maverick Brown wrote: > Here’s the app note about that when you upgrade the software above 1.6.63 > on the inverter. > > I use a label maker or a sharps to write the installer password on the > back of the Mate3S. > > [image: preview.png] > > upgrading_1_6_63_app_note > > PDF Document · 200 KB > > > > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > > > On Sep 16, 2024, at 6:31 PM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Solved the problem. > > Somehow the "sell current limit" in the grid interface protection menu, > a hidden menu only accessed by creating a new installer login code, was set > to 7.5 a. > > I reset it to the max of 30a, and the system sells normally again. > > I read on an outback forum this parameter can change as a result of a > GS8048 firmware upgrade. Go figure. > > On Sun, Aug 18, 2024 at 1:11 PM Kirk Herander wrote: > >> Hello All, >> . >> I have a Radian 8048 system in service for over 10 years now. It sold >> back quite normally until the last several months -3.- FM60 CC's are set to >> grid tie mode and viewable and programmed from the Mate3s / OpticsRE. This >> issue loosely correlates to replacing one of the CCs several months ago. >> >> Trouble is all -3- charge controllers are almost always in a float mode. >> The radian does sell, but at a small KW compared to what it used to before >> the frequent float mode started popping up. If I remember correctly, >> ideally the CCs should always be in bulk charge when sellback occurs. >> >> I have the CC and inverter charger float set to about 1 vdc higher then >> the inverter's sell volts, as I believe was recommended way back when. Hard >> to understand what changed, but something did. I've checked the relevant >> setpoints many times and can't find anything obviously amiss. >> >> Does a sell mode tech note paper exist still for the Radian system? Did >> it ever? Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >> >> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >> >> *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* >> >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> >> 802.559.1225 >> > > > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: preview.png Type: image/png Size: 249732 bytes Desc: not available URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Tue Sep 17 11:19:18 2024 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (David Palumbo) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2024 15:19:18 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Switching to LiFePO4 Message-ID: Wrenches, I have a nice little rental house here in my off-grid neighborhood that after 40 years is ready to transition to LiFePO4 batteries. I have no experience with any lithium home power storage batteries. I'm looking for advice, so I can avoid mistakes as a rental house with battery problems is quite the pain in the ass. The last tenant was my daughter so life with older lead acids wasn't a huge issue, but now I want something I won't have to enter the house to monitor and operate. I'll bullet what I think I know and my questions. * The house has four 11-year-old Trojan Industrial IND 17-6 for 925 AH @ 24V that are amply sized for the houses loads. * It has a newer TriMetric meter that I was supposed to be able to set up for web access using their WIFI module, but I have had no success with being able to monitor battery state of charge remotely. * I really need something that will give me battery state of charge information without entering the house. * The system has a single OutBack VFX3624. PV array is 2.5kW. * System also has a Iota 40A charger so charging with my 6 KW genset is typically in the 100Amp range with the OutBack and Iota. * We are in northern Vermont, so we rack up significant generator (NOT auto-start) run time in the winter months. * I'm looking at Eclipse LiFePO4 24V 200AH. Three of these will give me 600AH @ 24V which is 65% of the rated Amp Hrs of the Trojan Industrials now in use. Is this enough? * My battery box can easily handle up to four of the Eclipse 24V 200AH batteries. I see that Backwoods recommends that only three of the Eclipse are connected with battery cables. If I opted for four (for 800AH) I would need to use a busbar. * Are there other distributors of Eclipse batteries other than Backwoods Solar that I should consider? I haven't used my dealer account with them for a number of years and I'm not sure that I'll get a good price from them. * What is the lead time for getting these batteries shipped out? * Are there other LiFePO4 batteries I should consider? * Is 600AH of LiFePO4's enough to replace 925AH of LA's? Dave Palumbo Retired from running Independent Power, but active in off-grid solar. Hyde Park, VT 802-371-8678 voice or text. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Tue Sep 17 11:35:11 2024 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2024 15:35:11 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Switching to LiFePO4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey there David _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: David Palumbo via RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Switching to LiFePO4 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2024 15:19:18 +0000 Size: 17495 URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Sep 17 11:42:33 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2024 09:42:33 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Switching to LiFePO4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <859899AA-916B-43AA-AE7A-FC6F8C3C0532@gmail.com> HI Dave, A whole new world. I didn’t realize how expensive the backwoods are, wow. There are many out there for around $1200 but not a lot in 24v. I have used many of the EG4 LL batteries, which at this point is one of the larger brands. I greatly prefer and only recommend batteries that have an active display that shows %, volts, amps, cell voltages, temperature. And I prefer ones that have a built in breaker. I don’t like ones with bluetooth as I’ve seen that fail when there is an issue and then you can’t see what’s going on as the bluetooth is down too. you’ll be really impressed once you get the hang of how differently they work. And as to size, to me its all based around days of autonomy. Is 65% enough and to what DOD are you doing that? I usually only recommend running them down to 20%, sure you can go to 10% but anything less than that you’re in the zone of how accurate the % meter in the battery is. I’m sure you’ll get a whole lot of advice, good luck jay > On Sep 17, 2024, at 9:19 AM, David Palumbo via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Wrenches, > > I have a nice little rental house here in my off-grid neighborhood that after 40 years is ready to transition to LiFePO4 batteries. > I have no experience with any lithium home power storage batteries. I'm looking for advice, so I can avoid mistakes as a rental house with battery problems is quite the pain in the ass. The last tenant was my daughter so life with older lead acids wasn't a huge issue, but now I want something I won't have to enter the house to monitor and operate. I'll bullet what I think I know and my questions. > The house has four 11-year-old Trojan Industrial IND 17-6 for 925 AH @ 24V that are amply sized for the houses loads. > It has a newer TriMetric meter that I was supposed to be able to set up for web access using their WIFI module, but I have had no success with being able to monitor battery state of charge remotely. > I really need something that will give me battery state of charge information without entering the house. > The system has a single OutBack VFX3624. PV array is 2.5kW. > System also has a Iota 40A charger so charging with my 6 KW genset is typically in the 100Amp range with the OutBack and Iota. > We are in northern Vermont, so we rack up significant generator (NOT auto-start) run time in the winter months. > I'm looking at Eclipse LiFePO4 24V 200AH. Three of these will give me 600AH @ 24V which is 65% of the rated Amp Hrs of the Trojan Industrials now in use. Is this enough? > My battery box can easily handle up to four of the Eclipse 24V 200AH batteries. I see that Backwoods recommends that only three of the Eclipse are connected with battery cables. If I opted for four (for 800AH) I would need to use a busbar. > Are there other distributors of Eclipse batteries other than Backwoods Solar that I should consider? I haven't used my dealer account with them for a number of years and I'm not sure that I'll get a good price from them. > What is the lead time for getting these batteries shipped out? > Are there other LiFePO4 batteries I should consider? > Is 600AH of LiFePO4's enough to replace 925AH of LA's? > Dave Palumbo > Retired from running Independent Power, but active in off-grid solar. > Hyde Park, VT > 802-371-8678 voice or text. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Tue Sep 17 11:51:01 2024 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2024 08:51:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Switching to LiFePO4 In-Reply-To: <859899AA-916B-43AA-AE7A-FC6F8C3C0532@gmail.com> References: <859899AA-916B-43AA-AE7A-FC6F8C3C0532@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1726588261.070419894@webmail.finestplanet.com> I always read that lithium batteries were not compatible with Outback FX inverters... something about their limitations on voltage parameters. Todd https://forum.outbackpower.com/viewtopic.php?t=17565 On Tuesday, September 17, 2024 8:42am, "jay via RE-wrenches" said: HI Dave, A whole new world. I didn’t realize how expensive the backwoods are, wow. There are many out there for around $1200 but not a lot in 24v. I have used many of the EG4 LL batteries, which at this point is one of the larger brands. I greatly prefer and only recommend batteries that have an active display that shows %, volts, amps, cell voltages, temperature. And I prefer ones that have a built in breaker. I don’t like ones with bluetooth as I’ve seen that fail when there is an issue and then you can’t see what’s going on as the bluetooth is down too. you’ll be really impressed once you get the hang of how differently they work. And as to size, to me its all based around days of autonomy. Is 65% enough and to what DOD are you doing that? I usually only recommend running them down to 20%, sure you can go to 10% but anything less than that you’re in the zone of how accurate the % meter in the battery is. I’m sure you’ll get a whole lot of advice, good luck jay On Sep 17, 2024, at 9:19 AM, David Palumbo via RE-wrenches <[ re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org )> wrote: Wrenches, I have a nice little rental house here in my off-grid neighborhood that after 40 years is ready to transition to LiFePO4 batteries. I have no experience with any lithium home power storage batteries. I'm looking for advice, so I can avoid mistakes as a rental house with battery problems is quite the pain in the ass. The last tenant was my daughter so life with older lead acids wasn't a huge issue, but now I want something I won't have to enter the house to monitor and operate. I'll bullet what I think I know and my questions. The house has four 11-year-old Trojan Industrial IND 17-6 for 925 AH @ 24V that are amply sized for the houses loads. It has a newer TriMetric meter that I was supposed to be able to set up for web access using their WIFI module, but I have had no success with being able to monitor battery state of charge remotely. I really need something that will give me battery state of charge information without entering the house. The system has a single OutBack VFX3624. PV array is 2.5kW. System also has a Iota 40A charger so charging with my 6 KW genset is typically in the 100Amp range with the OutBack and Iota. We are in northern Vermont, so we rack up significant generator (NOT auto-start) run time in the winter months. I'm looking at Eclipse LiFePO4 24V 200AH. Three of these will give me 600AH @ 24V which is 65% of the rated Amp Hrs of the Trojan Industrials now in use. Is this enough? My battery box can easily handle up to four of the Eclipse 24V 200AH batteries. I see that Backwoods recommends that only three of the Eclipse are connected with battery cables. If I opted for four (for 800AH) I would need to use a busbar. Are there other distributors of Eclipse batteries other than Backwoods Solar that I should consider? I haven't used my dealer account with them for a number of years and I'm not sure that I'll get a good price from them. What is the lead time for getting these batteries shipped out? Are there other LiFePO4 batteries I should consider? Is 600AH of LiFePO4's enough to replace 925AH of LA's? Dave Palumbo Retired from running Independent Power, but active in off-grid solar. Hyde Park, VT 802-371-8678 voice or text._______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood AlliancePay optional member dues here: [ http://re-wrenches.org ]( http://re-wrenches.org/ )List Address: [ RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org )Change listserver email address & settings:[ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org )There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:[ https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ ]( https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ )[ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org )List rules & etiquette:[ http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ]( http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm )Check out or update participant bios:[ http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ]( http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ ) Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Tue Sep 17 11:54:33 2024 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2024 15:54:33 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Switching to LiFePO4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry for the interruption - What CC are you going to be using? _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: David Palumbo via RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Switching to LiFePO4 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2024 15:19:18 +0000 Size: 17495 URL: From steve at surrette.com Tue Sep 17 12:28:39 2024 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2024 09:28:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Switching to LiFePO4 In-Reply-To: <1726588261.070419894@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <859899AA-916B-43AA-AE7A-FC6F8C3C0532@gmail.com> <1726588261.070419894@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: I have found that some of the older Outback FX, MX, and even some older FMs don't like how the voltage rises; this can cause them to shut off charge prematurely. I have found that the products made in 2008 and newer can be configured with some tweaking to make it work, but the Lithium battery must have its own BMS, and you have to be able to monitor SOC and Voltage. This applies to many products; I wouldn't be surprised if many older legacy chargers struggle to charge LFPs. Many legacy inverters can have issues charging LFP batteries, so when you install them, make sure you commission them fully and check on them repeatedly to ensure that they are charging correctly. As for discharging, yes, try to keep them above 20% SOC, as going lower will shorten cycle life. Many LFP manufacturers flat-out lie about them or build them with a buffer to accommodate the deeper discharge. Discharging below 20% SOC will shorten the LFP lifecycle by up to 50%... If you have parallel LFP batteries that are not connected in closed-loop communication, make sure you balance them periodically, at least every 9-12 months. Failure to do so can lead to imbalances and over-discharge of the unbalanced battery, which could "brick" the battery. Having a bit longer absorb timer (20-30 min per parallel string) will help with this, but programming short absorb timers will lead to balancing issues. What happens here is the voltage of the battery drops unevenly, and a large load surging could draw the imbalanced battery below the minimum voltage, causing the BMS to shut off to prevent cell damage due to discharge. Balancing is as simple as separating all parallel strings and charging each battery independently until SOC is 100% across all parallel batteries. Don't get cheap on connections. Install a positive and negative bus and wire each battery to the bus with cables of equal size and length. Be sure to use OCP on the positive conductors. This will make separation and balancing periodically much more manageable and is an excellent idea (Code requirements are going this way anyway) to prevent battery-to-battery shorts in case someone drops a wrench or tools... Trying to wire these like you would three parallel strings of Lead with cables will induce balancing/connection issues. I have found that many customers buy LFPs expecting them to operate like Lead. This is a huge mistake. Whatever you do, do not allow a 12v or 24v LFP battery to go below its nominal voltage (10v or 20V for 12/24v operation). With lead batteries, namely flooded lead acid, you can do this, and harm in the short run is minimal, but with lithium, doing so can "Brick" the battery. At that point, your only hope is to place a regulated power supply on the battery for a few days in hopes of recovering it. We make an S-Series battery that you can pull the cover off and apply a power supply voltage to wake up the BMS. Still, you must be very careful doing this because if cell damage occurs and you note higher than normal temperatures when charging, the cells have been damaged. It's not a good idea to continue using the battery. This is a very costly lesson that some have had to learn the hardway. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Tue, Sep 17, 2024 at 8:51 AM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I always read that lithium batteries were not compatible with Outback FX > inverters... something about their limitations on voltage parameters. > > Todd > > > > https://forum.outbackpower.com/viewtopic.php?t=17565 > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, September 17, 2024 8:42am, "jay via RE-wrenches" < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> said: > > HI Dave, > A whole new world. > I didn’t realize how expensive the backwoods are, wow. > There are many out there for around $1200 but not a lot in 24v. > I have used many of the EG4 LL batteries, which at this point is one of > the larger brands. > I greatly prefer and only recommend batteries that have an active display > that shows %, volts, amps, cell voltages, temperature. > And I prefer ones that have a built in breaker. > I don’t like ones with bluetooth as I’ve seen that fail when there is an > issue and then you can’t see what’s going on as the bluetooth is down too. > you’ll be really impressed once you get the hang of how differently they > work. > And as to size, to me its all based around days of autonomy. Is 65% > enough and to what DOD are you doing that? > I usually only recommend running them down to 20%, sure you can go to 10% > but anything less than that you’re in the zone of how accurate the % meter > in the battery is. > I’m sure you’ll get a whole lot of advice, > good luck > jay > > > On Sep 17, 2024, at 9:19 AM, David Palumbo via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches, > I have a nice little rental house here in my off-grid neighborhood that > after 40 years is ready to transition to LiFePO4 batteries. > I have no experience with any lithium home power storage batteries. I'm > looking for advice, so I can avoid mistakes as a rental house with battery > problems is quite the pain in the ass. The last tenant was my daughter so > life with older lead acids wasn't a huge issue, but now I want something I > won't have to enter the house to monitor and operate. I'll bullet what I > think I know and my questions. > > - The house has four 11-year-old Trojan Industrial IND 17-6 for 925 AH > @ 24V that are amply sized for the houses loads. > - It has a newer TriMetric meter that I was supposed to be able to set > up for web access using their WIFI module, but I have had no success with > being able to monitor battery state of charge remotely. > - I really need something that will give me battery state of charge > information without entering the house. > - The system has a single OutBack VFX3624. PV array is 2.5kW. > - System also has a Iota 40A charger so charging with my 6 KW genset > is typically in the 100Amp range with the OutBack and Iota. > - We are in northern Vermont, so we rack up significant generator (NOT > auto-start) run time in the winter months. > - I'm looking at Eclipse LiFePO4 24V 200AH. Three of these will give > me 600AH @ 24V which is 65% of the rated Amp Hrs of the Trojan Industrials > now in use. Is this enough? > - My battery box can easily handle up to four of the Eclipse 24V 200AH > batteries. I see that Backwoods recommends that only three of the Eclipse > are connected with battery cables. If I opted for four (for 800AH) I would > need to use a busbar. > - Are there other distributors of Eclipse batteries other than > Backwoods Solar that I should consider? I haven't used my dealer account > with them for a number of years and I'm not sure that I'll get a good price > from them. > - What is the lead time for getting these batteries shipped out? > - Are there other LiFePO4 batteries I should consider? > - Is 600AH of LiFePO4's enough to replace 925AH of LA's? > > Dave Palumbo > Retired from running Independent Power, but active in off-grid solar. > Hyde Park, VT > 802-371-8678 voice or text. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Tue Sep 17 12:30:40 2024 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (David Palumbo) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2024 16:30:40 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Switching to LiFePO4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There are 3 sub-arrays. * 550W on a TriStar MPPT * 800W on a OutBack MX-60 * 1,200W on MidNite Classic 200 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2024 11:54 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Dana Orzel Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Switching to LiFePO4 Sorry for the interruption – What CC are you going to be using? _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com “Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!” -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Tue Sep 17 12:50:57 2024 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2024 09:50:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Switching to LiFePO4 In-Reply-To: References: <859899AA-916B-43AA-AE7A-FC6F8C3C0532@gmail.com> <1726588261.070419894@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: Oops... I haven't had enough caffeine this morning. This is supposed to be in "open" not closed loop. Sorry about the 2nd email. If you have parallel LFP batteries that are not connected in *open loop* communication, make sure you balance them periodically, at least every 9-12 months. Failure to do so can lead to imbalances and over-discharge of the unbalanced battery, which could "brick" the battery. Having a bit longer absorb timer (20-30 min per parallel string) will help with this, but programming short absorb timers will lead to balancing issues. What happens here is the voltage of the battery drops unevenly, and a large load surging could draw the imbalanced battery below the minimum voltage, causing the BMS to shut off to prevent cell damage due to discharge. Balancing is as simple as separating all parallel strings and charging each battery independently until SOC is 100% across all parallel batteries. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Tue, Sep 17, 2024 at 9:28 AM Steve Higgins wrote: > I have found that some of the older Outback FX, MX, and even some older > FMs don't like how the voltage rises; this can cause them to shut off > charge prematurely. I have found that the products made in 2008 and newer > can be configured with some tweaking to make it work, but the Lithium > battery must have its own BMS, and you have to be able to monitor SOC and > Voltage. This applies to many products; I wouldn't be surprised if many > older legacy chargers struggle to charge LFPs. Many legacy inverters can > have issues charging LFP batteries, so when you install them, make sure you > commission them fully and check on them repeatedly to ensure that they are > charging correctly. > > As for discharging, yes, try to keep them above 20% SOC, as going lower > will shorten cycle life. Many LFP manufacturers flat-out lie about them or > build them with a buffer to accommodate the deeper discharge. Discharging > below 20% SOC will shorten the LFP lifecycle by up to 50%... > > If you have parallel LFP batteries that are not connected in closed-loop > communication, make sure you balance them periodically, at least every 9-12 > months. Failure to do so can lead to imbalances and over-discharge of the > unbalanced battery, which could "brick" the battery. Having a bit longer > absorb timer (20-30 min per parallel string) will help with this, but > programming short absorb timers will lead to balancing issues. What > happens here is the voltage of the battery drops unevenly, and a large load > surging could draw the imbalanced battery below the minimum voltage, > causing the BMS to shut off to prevent cell damage due to discharge. > Balancing is as simple as separating all parallel strings and charging > each battery independently until SOC is 100% across all parallel batteries. > > Don't get cheap on connections. Install a positive and negative bus and > wire each battery to the bus with cables of equal size and length. Be sure > to use OCP on the positive conductors. This will make separation and > balancing periodically much more manageable and is an excellent idea > (Code requirements are going this way anyway) to prevent battery-to-battery > shorts in case someone drops a wrench or tools... Trying to wire these > like you would three parallel strings of Lead with cables will induce > balancing/connection issues. > > I have found that many customers buy LFPs expecting them to operate like > Lead. This is a huge mistake. Whatever you do, do not allow a 12v or 24v > LFP battery to go below its nominal voltage (10v or 20V for 12/24v > operation). With lead batteries, namely flooded lead acid, you can do > this, and harm in the short run is minimal, but with lithium, doing so can > "Brick" the battery. At that point, your only hope is to place a regulated > power supply on the battery for a few days in hopes of recovering it. We > make an S-Series battery that you can pull the cover off and apply a power > supply voltage to wake up the BMS. Still, you must be very careful doing > this because if cell damage occurs and you note higher than normal > temperatures when charging, the cells have been damaged. It's not a good > idea to continue using the battery. This is a very costly lesson that > some have had to learn the hardway. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager > t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 > f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for > the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged > material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the > taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If > you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or > destroy this message and all copies. > ------------------------------ > > > On Tue, Sep 17, 2024 at 8:51 AM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I always read that lithium batteries were not compatible with Outback FX >> inverters... something about their limitations on voltage parameters. >> >> Todd >> >> >> >> https://forum.outbackpower.com/viewtopic.php?t=17565 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tuesday, September 17, 2024 8:42am, "jay via RE-wrenches" < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> said: >> >> HI Dave, >> A whole new world. >> I didn’t realize how expensive the backwoods are, wow. >> There are many out there for around $1200 but not a lot in 24v. >> I have used many of the EG4 LL batteries, which at this point is one of >> the larger brands. >> I greatly prefer and only recommend batteries that have an active display >> that shows %, volts, amps, cell voltages, temperature. >> And I prefer ones that have a built in breaker. >> I don’t like ones with bluetooth as I’ve seen that fail when there is an >> issue and then you can’t see what’s going on as the bluetooth is down too. >> you’ll be really impressed once you get the hang of how differently they >> work. >> And as to size, to me its all based around days of autonomy. Is 65% >> enough and to what DOD are you doing that? >> I usually only recommend running them down to 20%, sure you can go to 10% >> but anything less than that you’re in the zone of how accurate the % meter >> in the battery is. >> I’m sure you’ll get a whole lot of advice, >> good luck >> jay >> >> >> On Sep 17, 2024, at 9:19 AM, David Palumbo via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> Wrenches, >> I have a nice little rental house here in my off-grid neighborhood that >> after 40 years is ready to transition to LiFePO4 batteries. >> I have no experience with any lithium home power storage batteries. I'm >> looking for advice, so I can avoid mistakes as a rental house with battery >> problems is quite the pain in the ass. The last tenant was my daughter so >> life with older lead acids wasn't a huge issue, but now I want something I >> won't have to enter the house to monitor and operate. I'll bullet what I >> think I know and my questions. >> >> - The house has four 11-year-old Trojan Industrial IND 17-6 for 925 >> AH @ 24V that are amply sized for the houses loads. >> - It has a newer TriMetric meter that I was supposed to be able to >> set up for web access using their WIFI module, but I have had no success >> with being able to monitor battery state of charge remotely. >> - I really need something that will give me battery state of charge >> information without entering the house. >> - The system has a single OutBack VFX3624. PV array is 2.5kW. >> - System also has a Iota 40A charger so charging with my 6 KW genset >> is typically in the 100Amp range with the OutBack and Iota. >> - We are in northern Vermont, so we rack up significant generator >> (NOT auto-start) run time in the winter months. >> - I'm looking at Eclipse LiFePO4 24V 200AH. Three of these will give >> me 600AH @ 24V which is 65% of the rated Amp Hrs of the Trojan Industrials >> now in use. Is this enough? >> - My battery box can easily handle up to four of the Eclipse 24V >> 200AH batteries. I see that Backwoods recommends that only three of the >> Eclipse are connected with battery cables. If I opted for four (for 800AH) >> I would need to use a busbar. >> - Are there other distributors of Eclipse batteries other than >> Backwoods Solar that I should consider? I haven't used my dealer account >> with them for a number of years and I'm not sure that I'll get a good price >> from them. >> - What is the lead time for getting these batteries shipped out? >> - Are there other LiFePO4 batteries I should consider? >> - Is 600AH of LiFePO4's enough to replace 925AH of LA's? >> >> Dave Palumbo >> Retired from running Independent Power, but active in off-grid solar. >> Hyde Park, VT >> 802-371-8678 voice or text. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Sep 17 13:58:17 2024 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2024 10:58:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Switching to LiFePO4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dave, I would suggest stepping up to 48 nominal, fortress 18.5, battery 12 or 15 k solark inverter, re-wire the array to single or dual string, make the wiring in the home capable of 240, this usually requires main panel re-work and set up the monitoring. Batteries are like replacement heart valves, never get startups or small manufacturers as so many disappear and now you are stuck. Fun times. On Tue, Sep 17, 2024, 8:19 AM David Palumbo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches, > > I have a nice little rental house here in my off-grid neighborhood that > after 40 years is ready to transition to LiFePO4 batteries. > I have no experience with any lithium home power storage batteries. I'm > looking for advice, so I can avoid mistakes as a rental house with battery > problems is quite the pain in the ass. The last tenant was my daughter so > life with older lead acids wasn't a huge issue, but now I want something I > won't have to enter the house to monitor and operate. I'll bullet what I > think I know and my questions. > > - The house has four 11-year-old Trojan Industrial IND 17-6 for 925 AH > @ 24V that are amply sized for the houses loads. > - It has a newer TriMetric meter that I was supposed to be able to set > up for web access using their WIFI module, but I have had no success with > being able to monitor battery state of charge remotely. > - I really need something that will give me battery state of charge > information without entering the house. > - The system has a single OutBack VFX3624. PV array is 2.5kW. > - System also has a Iota 40A charger so charging with my 6 KW genset > is typically in the 100Amp range with the OutBack and Iota. > - We are in northern Vermont, so we rack up significant generator (NOT > auto-start) run time in the winter months. > - I'm looking at Eclipse LiFePO4 24V 200AH. Three of these will give > me 600AH @ 24V which is 65% of the rated Amp Hrs of the Trojan Industrials > now in use. Is this enough? > - My battery box can easily handle up to four of the Eclipse 24V 200AH > batteries. I see that Backwoods recommends that only three of the Eclipse > are connected with battery cables. If I opted for four (for 800AH) I would > need to use a busbar. > - Are there other distributors of Eclipse batteries other than > Backwoods Solar that I should consider? I haven't used my dealer account > with them for a number of years and I'm not sure that I'll get a good price > from them. > - What is the lead time for getting these batteries shipped out? > - Are there other LiFePO4 batteries I should consider? > - Is 600AH of LiFePO4's enough to replace 925AH of LA's? > > Dave Palumbo > Retired from running Independent Power, but active in off-grid solar. > Hyde Park, VT > 802-371-8678 voice or text. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Tue Sep 17 14:23:25 2024 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2024 11:23:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Switching to LiFePO4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0548f914-5e68-45a5-8544-5db1b7ac1b2a@sindelarsolar.com> Jerry, Re your advice to never get startups or small manufacturers as so many disappear and now you are stuck, I guess we should stick with the big well-established manufacturers, like Outback, Magnum and Blue Planet, right? As you would say, fun times... Allan On 9/17/2024 10:58 AM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches wrote: > Dave, > I would suggest stepping up to 48 nominal, fortress 18.5, battery 12 > or 15 k solark inverter, re-wire the array to single or dual string, > make the wiring in the home capable of 240, this usually requires main > panel re-work and set up the monitoring. > Batteries are like replacement heart valves, never get startups or > small manufacturers as so many disappear and now you are stuck. > Fun times. From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Sep 17 14:36:43 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2024 18:36:43 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Switching to LiFePO4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <974034ef-cd29-8e3c-8e16-eea2c4f70aed@floridasolardesigngroup.com> It's expensive, but I second Jerry's recommendation. With three subarrays, you should look at the Sol-Ark 15K with three MPPTs. The wiring is so clean with this inverter in most circumstances, even on a retrofit. I am getting more and more comfortable with EG4 LL batteries, mostly out of necessity as consumers learn how cheap they are. But HomeGrid is also a great pairing, and I'm sure others like Fortress, which I have not tried.  If you do go the route of paralleling batteries and you don't have a stackable battery system or EG4's cabinet with integrated bus bars, I have found the Victron Lynx to be very handy up to 1000A. Over that, the Midnite 2000A combiner box is big, but flexible and well designed. I have resisted converting Outback systems to LiFePO due to the reported problems mentioned by others. But in my situations, most are buying a BIG battery and the inverter replacement cost becomes a smaller percentage of the project cost. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Sep 17, 2024 at 1:59 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches wrote: > Dave,  > I would suggest stepping up to 48 nominal, fortress 18.5, battery 12 or 15 k > solark inverter, re-wire the array to single or dual string, make the wiring > in the home capable of 240, this usually requires main panel re-work and set > up the monitoring.  > Batteries are like replacement heart valves, never get startups or small > manufacturers as so many disappear and now you are stuck. > Fun times. > > On Tue, Sep 17, 2024, 8:19 AM David Palumbo via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > > Wrenches, > > > > > > I have a nice little rental house here in my off-grid neighborhood that > > after 40 years is ready to transition to LiFePO4 batteries.  > > I have no experience with any lithium home power storage batteries. I'm > > looking for advice, so I can avoid mistakes as a rental house with battery > > problems is quite the pain in the ass. The last tenant was my daughter so > > life with older lead acids wasn't a huge issue, but now I want something I > > won't have to enter the house to monitor and operate. I'll bullet what I > > think I know and my questions. > > * The house has four 11-year-old Trojan Industrial IND 17-6 for 925 AH @ > > 24V that are amply sized for the houses loads. > > * It has a newer TriMetric meter that I was supposed to be able to set up > > for web access using their WIFI module, but I have had no success with > > being able to monitor battery state of charge remotely. > > * I really need something that will give me battery state of charge > > information without entering the house. > > * The system has a single OutBack VFX3624. PV array is 2.5kW.  > > * System also has a Iota 40A charger so charging with my 6 KW genset is > > typically in the 100Amp range with the OutBack and Iota. > > * We are in northern Vermont, so we rack up significant generator (NOT > > auto-start) run time in the winter months.  > > *  I'm looking at Eclipse LiFePO4 24V 200AH. Three of these will give me > > 600AH @ 24V which is 65% of the rated Amp Hrs of the Trojan Industrials > > now in use. Is this enough? > > * My battery box can easily handle up to four of the Eclipse 24V 200AH > > batteries. I see that Backwoods recommends that only three of the Eclipse > > are connected with battery cables. If I opted for four (for 800AH) I > > would need to use a busbar. > > * Are there other distributors of Eclipse batteries other than Backwoods > > Solar that I should consider? I haven't used my dealer account with them > > for a number of years and I'm not sure that I'll get a good price from > > them. > > * What is the lead time for getting these batteries shipped out? > > * Are there other LiFePO4 batteries I should consider? > > * Is 600AH of LiFePO4's enough to replace 925AH of LA's? > > > > Dave Palumbo > > Retired from running Independent Power, but active in off-grid solar. > > Hyde Park, VT > > 802-371-8678 voice or text. > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > [http://re-wrenches.org] > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > [RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > > other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [http://re-wrenches.org] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > [RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Sep 17 17:19:17 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2024 15:19:17 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Switching to LiFePO4 In-Reply-To: <0548f914-5e68-45a5-8544-5db1b7ac1b2a@sindelarsolar.com> References: <0548f914-5e68-45a5-8544-5db1b7ac1b2a@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Honestly, that advice would seem to  be true, but the reality is: It is not valid.  Just look at Blue Planet, that was supposed to be a top tier offering.  Solar World?  AEE? Magnum has had serious issues, Outback doesn't answer the phone, SImpliphi takes an attorney to honor their warranty. Even long standing companies are not sure bets, at all.  They do cost much more, so I'm not sure who to turn to anymore.  I'm about to install Rubix LiPO4, which comes in a 24 v offering, BTW for Dave. The biggest issue I've seen with old VFX inverters, is the LVD set point can't go high enough for LiPO4.  I use the aux out on a charge controller, to switch on and off the remote switch on the VFX. I like the Fortress with Solark combo, but its not without its troubles either.  If the Solark shuts off due to low voltage, so does your PV input.  Then the no load draw on the Fortress eventually shuts down the battery.  You really need some (at least 1 kW) of DC coupled PV to keep that death spiral from happening. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 9/17/2024 12:23 PM, Sindelar Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Jerry, > Re your advice to never get startups or small manufacturers as so many > disappear and now you are stuck, I guess we should stick with the big > well-established manufacturers, like Outback, Magnum and Blue Planet, > right? > As you would say, fun times... > Allan > > On 9/17/2024 10:58 AM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches wrote: >> Dave, >> I would suggest stepping up to 48 nominal, fortress 18.5, battery 12 >> or 15 k solark inverter, re-wire the array to single or dual string, >> make the wiring in the home capable of 240, this usually requires >> main panel re-work and set up the monitoring. >> Batteries are like replacement heart valves, never get startups or >> small manufacturers as so many disappear and now you are stuck. >> Fun times. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Sep 17 18:01:01 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2024 18:01:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Switching to LiFePO4 In-Reply-To: References: <0548f914-5e68-45a5-8544-5db1b7ac1b2a@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: I don’t want to stray too far off track, but it’s worth discussing how challenging it is to predict which manufacturers will be around in a few years. I know this might be a touchy subject, but Enphase is beginning to offer full off-grid support. While I’m fully aware of the drawbacks of their system architecture for off-grid setups, it’s also important to acknowledge that no manufacturer is “too big to fail”—but Enphase is about as close as we have right now. If something were to happen to them, the reliance on remote access for the system functioning is concerning. It could essentially become a big brick if a service issue arises and there’s no support. On the other hand, Enphase may be a safe bet for certain off-grid systems if you think they will come out on top. But the reason I bring Enphase up is modularity. Building systems with interconnected components from various brands can spread the risk. Sol-Ark, with its “battery agnostic” approach, is a reasonable choice, as long as there’s a replacement all-in-one option if they were to go out of business. EG4 and Midnite seem to offer alternatives in that space now. As long as LiFePO manufacturers stick with 48V/51.2V standards, complete battery replacements should be straightforward. However, I do think that large battery sizes like 5 kWh (or even 13.5 and 14.3 kWh) could be problematic. Personally, I prefer the concept of smaller, 1 kWh chunks. In the case of a 40 kWh battery bank, for example, if one module fails and the manufacturer is no longer around, it’s a lot easier to deal with. That's similar to how we can drop one faulty 2V cell in a series of 24 lead acid batteries sometimes. Enphase, if you think about it, is the least modular approach in some ways, since it relies on a single manufacturer with a proprietary system. So the whole concept of modularity is not straightforward, either. It's a fantasy at this point to hope for a truly modular and manufacturer-agnostic system. What I find interesting is that most of my clients who went off-grid 7-15 years ago are pretty understanding when I tell them it’s time to replace their systems. Realistically, fast-forward another decade, and we’ll probably see significant advances that make a complete system replacement worth it once again. I’m not saying we should be designing disposable systems, but that might be where we’re headed, just like so many other industries. Think of what Tesla is doing with the Powewall 3. They are making solar and batteries as cheap as possible (while maintaining high quality standards and keeping fuel in Elon's jet). However, when the PW4 comes out, the PW3 will be deprecated, and those systems will become essentially disposable. The warranty is only 10 years. So when the inverter insude the PW3 dies in year 11, guess what – the entire PW3, battery and all, may be rendered useless. But, people still flock to Tesla for backup systems. And for good reasons. The days of keeping systems running on old components while upgrading just parts of the system are probably behind us. The rapid evolution of technology, equipment, codes, safety, and consumer needs will make whatever we install today obsolete soon after it's up and running. --end rant-- Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Sep 17, 2024 at 5:20 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Honestly, that advice would seem to be true, but the reality is: It is > not valid. Just look at Blue Planet, that was supposed to be a top tier > offering. Solar World? AEE? Magnum has had serious issues, Outback > doesn't answer the phone, SImpliphi takes an attorney to honor their > warranty. Even long standing companies are not sure bets, at all. They > do cost much more, so I'm not sure who to turn to anymore. I'm about to > install Rubix LiPO4, which comes in a 24 v offering, BTW for Dave. > > The biggest issue I've seen with old VFX inverters, is the LVD set point > can't go high enough for LiPO4. I use the aux out on a charge > controller, to switch on and off the remote switch on the VFX. > > I like the Fortress with Solark combo, but its not without its troubles > either. If the Solark shuts off due to low voltage, so does your PV > input. Then the no load draw on the Fortress eventually shuts down the > battery. You really need some (at least 1 kW) of DC coupled PV to keep > that death spiral from happening. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > On 9/17/2024 12:23 PM, Sindelar Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Jerry, > > Re your advice to never get startups or small manufacturers as so many > > disappear and now you are stuck, I guess we should stick with the big > > well-established manufacturers, like Outback, Magnum and Blue Planet, > > right? > > As you would say, fun times... > > Allan > > > > On 9/17/2024 10:58 AM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> Dave, > >> I would suggest stepping up to 48 nominal, fortress 18.5, battery 12 > >> or 15 k solark inverter, re-wire the array to single or dual string, > >> make the wiring in the home capable of 240, this usually requires > >> main panel re-work and set up the monitoring. > >> Batteries are like replacement heart valves, never get startups or > >> small manufacturers as so many disappear and now you are stuck. > >> Fun times. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Sep 18 09:22:42 2024 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2024 07:22:42 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Switching to LiFePO4 In-Reply-To: References: <0548f914-5e68-45a5-8544-5db1b7ac1b2a@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Hi David, This upgrade comes up a lot. You are at a point where you have to decide; do I match my old equipment with a new 24V Lithium battery bank (thus limiting my battery bank options), or do I upgrade my equipment to 48V which opens up the brands available? I have had good success matching older equipment with new batteries but my preference is always to try to get these systems to 48V if it's financially viable. Ray describes a solution to get the LBCO high enough to shut off the inverter before the BMS shuts down and this works. You can also hardwire a power supply to wake up the BMS directly from the generator. Remote monitoring is very useful too, especially in a rental scenario like this. It may be time for a full upgrade. Very hard to know which companies will make it through... On Tue, Sep 17, 2024 at 4:01 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I don’t want to stray too far off track, but it’s worth discussing how > challenging it is to predict which manufacturers will be around in a few > years. > > I know this might be a touchy subject, but Enphase is beginning to offer > full off-grid support. While I’m fully aware of the drawbacks of their > system architecture for off-grid setups, it’s also important to acknowledge > that no manufacturer is “too big to fail”—but Enphase is about as close as > we have right now. If something were to happen to them, the reliance on > remote access for the system functioning is concerning. It could > essentially become a big brick if a service issue arises and there’s no > support. On the other hand, Enphase may be a safe bet for certain off-grid > systems if you think they will come out on top. > > But the reason I bring Enphase up is modularity. Building systems with > interconnected components from various brands can spread the risk. Sol-Ark, > with its “battery agnostic” approach, is a reasonable choice, as long as > there’s a replacement all-in-one option if they were to go out of business. > EG4 and Midnite seem to offer alternatives in that space now. As long as > LiFePO manufacturers stick with 48V/51.2V standards, complete battery > replacements should be straightforward. However, I do think that large > battery sizes like 5 kWh (or even 13.5 and 14.3 kWh) could be problematic. > Personally, I prefer the concept of smaller, 1 kWh chunks. In the case of a > 40 kWh battery bank, for example, if one module fails and the manufacturer > is no longer around, it’s a lot easier to deal with. That's similar to how > we can drop one faulty 2V cell in a series of 24 lead acid batteries > sometimes. Enphase, if you think about it, is the least modular approach in > some ways, since it relies on a single manufacturer with a proprietary > system. So the whole concept of modularity is not straightforward, either. > It's a fantasy at this point to hope for a truly modular and > manufacturer-agnostic system. > > What I find interesting is that most of my clients who went off-grid 7-15 > years ago are pretty understanding when I tell them it’s time to replace > their systems. Realistically, fast-forward another decade, and we’ll > probably see significant advances that make a complete system replacement > worth it once again. I’m not saying we should be designing disposable > systems, but that might be where we’re headed, just like so many other > industries. Think of what Tesla is doing with the Powewall 3. They are > making solar and batteries as cheap as possible (while maintaining high > quality standards and keeping fuel in Elon's jet). However, when the PW4 > comes out, the PW3 will be deprecated, and those systems will become > essentially disposable. The warranty is only 10 years. So when the inverter > insude the PW3 dies in year 11, guess what – the entire PW3, battery and > all, may be rendered useless. But, people still flock to Tesla for backup > systems. And for good reasons. > > The days of keeping systems running on old components while upgrading just > parts of the system are probably behind us. The rapid evolution of > technology, equipment, codes, safety, and consumer needs will make whatever > we install today obsolete soon after it's up and running. > > > --end rant-- > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Tue, Sep 17, 2024 at 5:20 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Honestly, that advice would seem to be true, but the reality is: It is >> not valid. Just look at Blue Planet, that was supposed to be a top tier >> offering. Solar World? AEE? Magnum has had serious issues, Outback >> doesn't answer the phone, SImpliphi takes an attorney to honor their >> warranty. Even long standing companies are not sure bets, at all. They >> do cost much more, so I'm not sure who to turn to anymore. I'm about to >> install Rubix LiPO4, which comes in a 24 v offering, BTW for Dave. >> >> The biggest issue I've seen with old VFX inverters, is the LVD set point >> can't go high enough for LiPO4. I use the aux out on a charge >> controller, to switch on and off the remote switch on the VFX. >> >> I like the Fortress with Solark combo, but its not without its troubles >> either. If the Solark shuts off due to low voltage, so does your PV >> input. Then the no load draw on the Fortress eventually shuts down the >> battery. You really need some (at least 1 kW) of DC coupled PV to keep >> that death spiral from happening. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> >> On 9/17/2024 12:23 PM, Sindelar Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: >> > Jerry, >> > Re your advice to never get startups or small manufacturers as so many >> > disappear and now you are stuck, I guess we should stick with the big >> > well-established manufacturers, like Outback, Magnum and Blue Planet, >> > right? >> > As you would say, fun times... >> > Allan >> > >> > On 9/17/2024 10:58 AM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Dave, >> >> I would suggest stepping up to 48 nominal, fortress 18.5, battery 12 >> >> or 15 k solark inverter, re-wire the array to single or dual string, >> >> make the wiring in the home capable of 240, this usually requires >> >> main panel re-work and set up the monitoring. >> >> Batteries are like replacement heart valves, never get startups or >> >> small manufacturers as so many disappear and now you are stuck. >> >> Fun times. >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> > the other: >> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Sep 18 09:39:19 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2024 07:39:19 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Switching to LiFePO4 In-Reply-To: References: <0548f914-5e68-45a5-8544-5db1b7ac1b2a@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <7807A1BA-6EA6-4008-81A3-6CB19842A411@gmail.com> There is a large misunderstanding about lithium battery LVD voltages vs type. Simpliphi for example has a very high LVD at between 24-25v depending on DOD you want. And thats true, the VFX/FX you can’t set the LBCO that high so you have to get creative. Vs most of the better prismatic cells, at around 20-21v LVD ( which is all I use) Which every legacy inverter I know of has a higher LBCO set point than that. Jay > On Sep 18, 2024, at 7:22 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi David, > > This upgrade comes up a lot. You are at a point where you have to decide; do I match my old equipment with a new 24V Lithium battery bank (thus limiting my battery bank options), or do I upgrade my equipment to 48V which opens up the brands available? > > I have had good success matching older equipment with new batteries but my preference is always to try to get these systems to 48V if it's financially viable. Ray describes a solution to get the LBCO high enough to shut off the inverter before the BMS shuts down and this works. You can also hardwire a power supply to wake up the BMS directly from the generator. > > Remote monitoring is very useful too, especially in a rental scenario like this. It may be time for a full upgrade. > > Very hard to know which companies will make it through... > > > > On Tue, Sep 17, 2024 at 4:01 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: > I don’t want to stray too far off track, but it’s worth discussing how challenging it is to predict which manufacturers will be around in a few years. > > I know this might be a touchy subject, but Enphase is beginning to offer full off-grid support. While I’m fully aware of the drawbacks of their system architecture for off-grid setups, it’s also important to acknowledge that no manufacturer is “too big to fail”—but Enphase is about as close as we have right now. If something were to happen to them, the reliance on remote access for the system functioning is concerning. It could essentially become a big brick if a service issue arises and there’s no support. On the other hand, Enphase may be a safe bet for certain off-grid systems if you think they will come out on top. > > But the reason I bring Enphase up is modularity. Building systems with interconnected components from various brands can spread the risk. Sol-Ark, with its “battery agnostic” approach, is a reasonable choice, as long as there’s a replacement all-in-one option if they were to go out of business. EG4 and Midnite seem to offer alternatives in that space now. As long as LiFePO manufacturers stick with 48V/51.2V standards, complete battery replacements should be straightforward. However, I do think that large battery sizes like 5 kWh (or even 13.5 and 14.3 kWh) could be problematic. Personally, I prefer the concept of smaller, 1 kWh chunks. In the case of a 40 kWh battery bank, for example, if one module fails and the manufacturer is no longer around, it’s a lot easier to deal with. That's similar to how we can drop one faulty 2V cell in a series of 24 lead acid batteries sometimes. Enphase, if you think about it, is the least modular approach in some ways, since it relies on a single manufacturer with a proprietary system. So the whole concept of modularity is not straightforward, either. It's a fantasy at this point to hope for a truly modular and manufacturer-agnostic system. > > What I find interesting is that most of my clients who went off-grid 7-15 years ago are pretty understanding when I tell them it’s time to replace their systems. Realistically, fast-forward another decade, and we’ll probably see significant advances that make a complete system replacement worth it once again. I’m not saying we should be designing disposable systems, but that might be where we’re headed, just like so many other industries. Think of what Tesla is doing with the Powewall 3. They are making solar and batteries as cheap as possible (while maintaining high quality standards and keeping fuel in Elon's jet). However, when the PW4 comes out, the PW3 will be deprecated, and those systems will become essentially disposable. The warranty is only 10 years. So when the inverter insude the PW3 dies in year 11, guess what – the entire PW3, battery and all, may be rendered useless. But, people still flock to Tesla for backup systems. And for good reasons. > > The days of keeping systems running on old components while upgrading just parts of the system are probably behind us. The rapid evolution of technology, equipment, codes, safety, and consumer needs will make whatever we install today obsolete soon after it's up and running. > > > > --end rant-- > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Tue, Sep 17, 2024 at 5:20 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Honestly, that advice would seem to be true, but the reality is: It is > not valid. Just look at Blue Planet, that was supposed to be a top tier > offering. Solar World? AEE? Magnum has had serious issues, Outback > doesn't answer the phone, SImpliphi takes an attorney to honor their > warranty. Even long standing companies are not sure bets, at all. They > do cost much more, so I'm not sure who to turn to anymore. I'm about to > install Rubix LiPO4, which comes in a 24 v offering, BTW for Dave. > > The biggest issue I've seen with old VFX inverters, is the LVD set point > can't go high enough for LiPO4. I use the aux out on a charge > controller, to switch on and off the remote switch on the VFX. > > I like the Fortress with Solark combo, but its not without its troubles > either. If the Solark shuts off due to low voltage, so does your PV > input. Then the no load draw on the Fortress eventually shuts down the > battery. You really need some (at least 1 kW) of DC coupled PV to keep > that death spiral from happening. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > On 9/17/2024 12:23 PM, Sindelar Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Jerry, > > Re your advice to never get startups or small manufacturers as so many > > disappear and now you are stuck, I guess we should stick with the big > > well-established manufacturers, like Outback, Magnum and Blue Planet, > > right? > > As you would say, fun times... > > Allan > > > > On 9/17/2024 10:58 AM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> Dave, > >> I would suggest stepping up to 48 nominal, fortress 18.5, battery 12 > >> or 15 k solark inverter, re-wire the array to single or dual string, > >> make the wiring in the home capable of 240, this usually requires > >> main panel re-work and set up the monitoring. > >> Batteries are like replacement heart valves, never get startups or > >> small manufacturers as so many disappear and now you are stuck. > >> Fun times. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Wed Sep 18 12:51:07 2024 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2024 09:51:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Switching to LiFePO4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just installed my first Rubix Stack'd 24v batteries yesterday. Max recommended discharge to 20% is 25.5 vdc but the inverter LBCO is conveniently 24.0 so not really necessary to add the aux cutoff trick on legacy Outback systems. Will see how they do over time but in general Zonna has been a very reliable partner. Nick On Tue, Sep 17, 2024 at 8:19 AM David Palumbo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches, > > I have a nice little rental house here in my off-grid neighborhood that > after 40 years is ready to transition to LiFePO4 batteries. > I have no experience with any lithium home power storage batteries. I'm > looking for advice, so I can avoid mistakes as a rental house with battery > problems is quite the pain in the ass. The last tenant was my daughter so > life with older lead acids wasn't a huge issue, but now I want something I > won't have to enter the house to monitor and operate. I'll bullet what I > think I know and my questions. > > - The house has four 11-year-old Trojan Industrial IND 17-6 for 925 AH > @ 24V that are amply sized for the houses loads. > - It has a newer TriMetric meter that I was supposed to be able to set > up for web access using their WIFI module, but I have had no success with > being able to monitor battery state of charge remotely. > - I really need something that will give me battery state of charge > information without entering the house. > - The system has a single OutBack VFX3624. PV array is 2.5kW. > - System also has a Iota 40A charger so charging with my 6 KW genset > is typically in the 100Amp range with the OutBack and Iota. > - We are in northern Vermont, so we rack up significant generator (NOT > auto-start) run time in the winter months. > - I'm looking at Eclipse LiFePO4 24V 200AH. Three of these will give > me 600AH @ 24V which is 65% of the rated Amp Hrs of the Trojan Industrials > now in use. Is this enough? > - My battery box can easily handle up to four of the Eclipse 24V 200AH > batteries. I see that Backwoods recommends that only three of the Eclipse > are connected with battery cables. If I opted for four (for 800AH) I would > need to use a busbar. > - Are there other distributors of Eclipse batteries other than > Backwoods Solar that I should consider? I haven't used my dealer account > with them for a number of years and I'm not sure that I'll get a good price > from them. > - What is the lead time for getting these batteries shipped out? > - Are there other LiFePO4 batteries I should consider? > - Is 600AH of LiFePO4's enough to replace 925AH of LA's? > > Dave Palumbo > Retired from running Independent Power, but active in off-grid solar. > Hyde Park, VT > 802-371-8678 voice or text. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Wed Sep 18 13:04:45 2024 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2024 10:04:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Repairing malfunctioning Mate buttons Message-ID: Has anyone had any success or advice on how to replace the dying buttons on old classic Mates? I still have many systems out there that have the issue and replacing with a $500+ Mate3-s isn't a good option even if I could easily find them or want to give the new owners of Outback my money. I was able to pull out the soft silicone button yesterday and get a single press out of the INV button with two small screws on the contact tabs but was still problematic. The other buttons took about 30 presses to get a single response. Seems that sites that never utilize any of the features and don't regularly exercise the buttons are worse off than those that see frequent use. Is there a good way to perhaps repurpose buttons from old MX/Flexmax controllers? How deep into the disassembly of the Mate do you need to go to get access for a fix? I observed four small phillips screws but it appears it requires going much deeper to get to the front side of the body. What is the actual point of failure, corrosion or dust covering the two little points? Is there a document that exists somewhere on how to resolve this? Would love to be able to remedy this for my clients. Thanks Wrench wizards, Nick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Wed Sep 18 13:13:06 2024 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2024 10:13:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Midnite string level rapid shutdown receiver Message-ID: Has anyone been able to acquire and use Midnite's new solution with their AIO inverter by chance? MNSSR-600S-SS. I didn't realize it existed until reading the inverter manual. Appears to be a very worthwhile solution to the typical headaches involved with littering a roof with dozens of TS4's. Wire management will finally return to the practices of the old days (so it appears). Excited to design my upcoming installs with almost exclusive Midnite offerings. Thanks again, Nick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Sep 18 13:20:10 2024 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2024 13:20:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Repairing malfunctioning Mate buttons Message-ID: Common problem with remote controls for TVs for instance. You probably can Google this and find YouTube vids for repair.Depends on which part has worn out, the pads on the circuit board or the conductive paint on the bittom of the buttons. Each has a few good options for refurbishment.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenchesDate: Wed, Sep 18, 2024 1:05 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Nick Lucchese;Subject:[RE-wrenches] Repairing malfunctioning Mate buttonsHas anyone had any success or advice on how to replace the dying buttons on old classic Mates? I still have many systems out there that have the issue and replacing with a $500+ Mate3-s isn't a good option even if I could easily find them or want to give the new owners of Outback my money. I was able to pull out the soft silicone button yesterday and get a single press out of the INV button with two small screws on the contact tabs but was still problematic. The other buttons took about 30 presses to get a single response. Seems that sites that never utilize any of the features and don't regularly exercise the buttons are worse off than those that see frequent use.Is there a good way to perhaps repurpose buttons from old MX/Flexmax controllers? How deep into the disassembly of the Mate do you need to go to get access for a fix? I observed four small phillips screws but it appears it requires going much deeper to get to the front side of the body. What is the actual point of failure, corrosion or dust covering the two little points? Is there a document that exists somewhere on how to resolve this? Would love to be able to remedy this for my clients.Thanks Wrench wizards, Nick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Wed Sep 18 13:56:00 2024 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2024 10:56:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Repairing malfunctioning Mate buttons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1726682160.242130793@webmail.finestplanet.com> Sometimes a q-tip with alcohol will revive these as often dirt/ corrosion stops the contacts from working... but the disassembly to get to that area is the hard part. Todd On Wednesday, September 18, 2024 10:04am, "Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches" said: Has anyone had any success or advice on how to replace the dying buttons on old classic Mates? I still have many systems out there that have the issue and replacing with a $500+ Mate3-s isn't a good option even if I could easily find them or want to give the new owners of Outback my money. I was able to pull out the soft silicone button yesterday and get a single press out of the INV button with two small screws on the contact tabs but was still problematic. The other buttons took about 30 presses to get a single response. Seems that sites that never utilize any of the features and don't regularly exercise the buttons are worse off than those that see frequent use. Is there a good way to perhaps repurpose buttons from old MX/Flexmax controllers? How deep into the disassembly of the Mate do you need to go to get access for a fix? I observed four small phillips screws but it appears it requires going much deeper to get to the front side of the body. What is the actual point of failure, corrosion or dust covering the two little points? Is there a document that exists somewhere on how to resolve this? Would love to be able to remedy this for my clients. Thanks Wrench wizards, Nick Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Wed Sep 18 13:58:35 2024 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2024 11:58:35 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Repairing malfunctioning Mate buttons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A step further beyond Todd's alcohol suggestion is trying to put some Deoxit on the troublesome parts. - Sam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Sep 18 21:46:09 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2024 19:46:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Repairing malfunctioning Mate buttons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3bfcee22-2328-43a1-ab0a-a2ed08537d69@solarray.com> I second the Deoxit,  I've seen it work miracles on old electronics, potieometers, etc.  They make different formulas, more agressive cleaning, vs lubing vs protection., On 9/18/2024 11:58 AM, Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches wrote: > A step further beyond Todd's alcohol suggestion is trying to put some > Deoxit on the troublesome parts. > > - Sam > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Wed Sep 18 22:08:10 2024 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2024 19:08:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Repairing malfunctioning Mate buttons In-Reply-To: <3bfcee22-2328-43a1-ab0a-a2ed08537d69@solarray.com> References: <3bfcee22-2328-43a1-ab0a-a2ed08537d69@solarray.com> Message-ID: Great, thanks everyone. I'll source some Deoxit and make it happen! Kind of looking forward to taking one of these apart after pressing the buttons a couple thousand times over the last 2 decades. Nick On Wed, Sep 18, 2024 at 6:46 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I second the Deoxit, I've seen it work miracles on old electronics, > potieometers, etc. They make different formulas, more agressive > cleaning, vs lubing vs protection., > > On 9/18/2024 11:58 AM, Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches wrote: > > A step further beyond Todd's alcohol suggestion is trying to put some > > Deoxit on the troublesome parts. > > > > - Sam > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Sep 19 16:11:55 2024 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2024 20:11:55 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need an Outback Radian 4048A power module Message-ID: Hey there All! My off-grid neighbor-friend-client just has a "Battery Sence error" (at 55vdc on system) on his Radian 4048A inverter, currently he can run well, lights & refrigerator. The gas dryer sends the radian into a shutdown. I have never heard of a battery sense error. Anyone have a clue as to what this is? Outback is not returning calls. Supplier I normally work with does not have a power unit. Does anyone out there have a Radian 4048A power unit? Thoughts? Please contact me off list - Thanks _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Fri Sep 20 10:33:52 2024 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2024 08:33:52 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ATS Brand Recommendations Message-ID: Wrenches, We are primarily a grid-tied solar EPC but like many solar companies have a long history with small off-grid installations. In the past few years we have been tackling a handful of large, complex, grid-tied battery-backup systems (sub 90 kwh) range with some working flawlessly and some plagued with weekly quirks. A weak link we've found in two of these installations was our choice to use Generac Automatic Transfer Switches. In order for this ATS to sense a grid outage and perform its transfer it relies on circuitry built into a Generac generator as well as a source of 12v power (typically the generator start battery). One of our sites doesn't have a generator at all and the other does, but the grid sensing circuitry in the ATS is bypassed as we want the Sol-Arks to be the first-line of power during an outage and not the generator. In order to accomplish this our electrician designed custom circuitry for grid sensing which is powered by a separate 12v source, has a 10 second delay, and flips the transfer switch during an outage placing the loads under the control of the Sol-Arks. Our initial design for these systems did not take into consideration that a Generac ATS doesn't have its own "brains" to grid sense and since we are now relying on a small custom circuit and a small external 12v power supply to act as a key player in an otherwise powerful and robust backup system we are second guessing our equipment choice. What ATS solutions are Wrenches employing that we should be considering? TL;DR - what are the simplest ATS solutions that sense the grid (frequency, voltage, et al) and self-switch between backup and grid power automatically? Sincerely, Sam [image: OnSite Energy] SAM HARALDSON Operations Specialist (406) 551-6135 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 Locally owned and operated since 2012 [image: B Corporation] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Sep 20 11:34:29 2024 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2024 08:34:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ATS Brand Recommendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Sam - It's been probably 6 or 8 years since I've selected a 3rd party automatic transfer switch, but we used to use Briggs & Stratton products with good results: https://energy.briggsandstratton.com/na/en_us/homeowners/products/standby-generators/transfer-switches-and-accessories.html At least at the time, these had internal circuitry to do the transfer between grid and offgrid operation with a pre-programmed delay of about 10 or 20 seconds. We paired these frequently with Sunny Islands. Now that the major ESS manufacturers have Microgrid Interconnect Devices (MIDs) for their systems, we don't have any reason to use these. Best, August Luminalt On Fri, Sep 20, 2024 at 7:35 AM Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches, > > We are primarily a grid-tied solar EPC but like many solar companies have > a long history with small off-grid installations. In the past few years we > have been tackling a handful of large, complex, grid-tied battery-backup > systems (sub 90 kwh) range with some working flawlessly and some plagued > with weekly quirks. A weak link we've found in two of these installations > was our choice to use Generac Automatic Transfer Switches. In order for > this ATS to sense a grid outage and perform its transfer it relies on > circuitry built into a Generac generator as well as a source of 12v power > (typically the generator start battery). > > One of our sites doesn't have a generator at all and the other does, but > the grid sensing circuitry in the ATS is bypassed as we want the Sol-Arks > to be the first-line of power during an outage and not the generator. In > order to accomplish this our electrician designed custom circuitry for grid > sensing which is powered by a separate 12v source, has a 10 second delay, > and flips the transfer switch during an outage placing the loads under the > control of the Sol-Arks. > > Our initial design for these systems did not take into consideration that > a Generac ATS doesn't have its own "brains" to grid sense and since we are > now relying on a small custom circuit and a small external 12v power supply > to act as a key player in an otherwise powerful and robust backup system we > are second guessing our equipment choice. What ATS solutions are Wrenches > employing that we should be considering? > > TL;DR - what are the simplest ATS solutions that sense the grid > (frequency, voltage, et al) and self-switch between backup and grid power > automatically? > > Sincerely, > Sam > > > [image: OnSite Energy] > > > SAM HARALDSON > Operations Specialist > (406) 551-6135 > 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 > Locally owned and operated since 2012 > [image: B Corporation] > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Sep 20 11:44:45 2024 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2024 08:44:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ATS Brand Recommendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches, If you are looking for a very good ATS, you need to look at ASCO that's what they do, from small less than 100 amp to high voltage multi 1000 amp units, they are a simple 2 wire start, l also use the Kohler products with no issues, l have AC Coupled off grid, DC Coupled on grid Fun times On Fri, Sep 20, 2024, 8:36 AM August Goers via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Sam - > > It's been probably 6 or 8 years since I've selected a 3rd party automatic > transfer switch, but we used to use Briggs & Stratton products with good > results: > > > https://energy.briggsandstratton.com/na/en_us/homeowners/products/standby-generators/transfer-switches-and-accessories.html > > At least at the time, these had internal circuitry to do the transfer > between grid and offgrid operation with a pre-programmed delay of about 10 > or 20 seconds. We paired these frequently with Sunny Islands. > > Now that the major ESS manufacturers have Microgrid Interconnect Devices > (MIDs) for their systems, we don't have any reason to use these. > > Best, > > August > Luminalt > > > On Fri, Sep 20, 2024 at 7:35 AM Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Wrenches, >> >> We are primarily a grid-tied solar EPC but like many solar companies have >> a long history with small off-grid installations. In the past few years we >> have been tackling a handful of large, complex, grid-tied battery-backup >> systems (sub 90 kwh) range with some working flawlessly and some plagued >> with weekly quirks. A weak link we've found in two of these installations >> was our choice to use Generac Automatic Transfer Switches. In order for >> this ATS to sense a grid outage and perform its transfer it relies on >> circuitry built into a Generac generator as well as a source of 12v power >> (typically the generator start battery). >> >> One of our sites doesn't have a generator at all and the other does, but >> the grid sensing circuitry in the ATS is bypassed as we want the Sol-Arks >> to be the first-line of power during an outage and not the generator. In >> order to accomplish this our electrician designed custom circuitry for grid >> sensing which is powered by a separate 12v source, has a 10 second delay, >> and flips the transfer switch during an outage placing the loads under the >> control of the Sol-Arks. >> >> Our initial design for these systems did not take into consideration that >> a Generac ATS doesn't have its own "brains" to grid sense and since we are >> now relying on a small custom circuit and a small external 12v power supply >> to act as a key player in an otherwise powerful and robust backup system we >> are second guessing our equipment choice. What ATS solutions are Wrenches >> employing that we should be considering? >> >> TL;DR - what are the simplest ATS solutions that sense the grid >> (frequency, voltage, et al) and self-switch between backup and grid power >> automatically? >> >> Sincerely, >> Sam >> >> >> [image: OnSite Energy] >> >> >> SAM HARALDSON >> Operations Specialist >> (406) 551-6135 >> 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 >> >> Locally owned and operated since 2012 >> [image: B Corporation] >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Fri Sep 20 11:47:49 2024 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2024 09:47:49 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ATS Brand Recommendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Now that the major ESS manufacturers have Microgrid Interconnect Devices > (MIDs) for their systems, we don't have any reason to use these. > August, thank you for the recommendation of the Briggs & Stratton. And in case others have commentary to add that references the point that you made about using the inverters as the MID, in the two use-cases I'm currently looking at we have four 12k Sol-Arks which don't have pass through amperage capabilities high enough to handle the 600A service (15k Sol-Arks did not yet exist when this system was designed). - Sam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Fri Sep 20 11:58:13 2024 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2024 11:58:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ATS Brand Recommendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a system with Generac ATS where Grid is Primary source, SolArk Critical Load is secondary source. And whole home is the Load out of the ATS. Generator feeds in to the SolArk Gen terminals. KOHLER generator (2-wire auto start) engages only when the SolArk tells it to, programmed by me at a low batt voltage. 12vdc to the ATS control board comes from a 120 to 12 standard power supply from the critical loads, which effectively is ‘always on’ Not sure if this can work in your application but after we got the kinks out we’ve had no problems On Fri, Sep 20, 2024 at 11:34 AM August Goers via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Sam - > > It's been probably 6 or 8 years since I've selected a 3rd party automatic > transfer switch, but we used to use Briggs & Stratton products with good > results: > > > https://energy.briggsandstratton.com/na/en_us/homeowners/products/standby-generators/transfer-switches-and-accessories.html > > At least at the time, these had internal circuitry to do the transfer > between grid and offgrid operation with a pre-programmed delay of about 10 > or 20 seconds. We paired these frequently with Sunny Islands. > > Now that the major ESS manufacturers have Microgrid Interconnect Devices > (MIDs) for their systems, we don't have any reason to use these. > > Best, > > August > Luminalt > > > On Fri, Sep 20, 2024 at 7:35 AM Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Wrenches, >> >> We are primarily a grid-tied solar EPC but like many solar companies have >> a long history with small off-grid installations. In the past few years we >> have been tackling a handful of large, complex, grid-tied battery-backup >> systems (sub 90 kwh) range with some working flawlessly and some plagued >> with weekly quirks. A weak link we've found in two of these installations >> was our choice to use Generac Automatic Transfer Switches. In order for >> this ATS to sense a grid outage and perform its transfer it relies on >> circuitry built into a Generac generator as well as a source of 12v power >> (typically the generator start battery). >> >> One of our sites doesn't have a generator at all and the other does, but >> the grid sensing circuitry in the ATS is bypassed as we want the Sol-Arks >> to be the first-line of power during an outage and not the generator. In >> order to accomplish this our electrician designed custom circuitry for grid >> sensing which is powered by a separate 12v source, has a 10 second delay, >> and flips the transfer switch during an outage placing the loads under the >> control of the Sol-Arks. >> >> Our initial design for these systems did not take into consideration that >> a Generac ATS doesn't have its own "brains" to grid sense and since we are >> now relying on a small custom circuit and a small external 12v power supply >> to act as a key player in an otherwise powerful and robust backup system we >> are second guessing our equipment choice. What ATS solutions are Wrenches >> employing that we should be considering? >> >> TL;DR - what are the simplest ATS solutions that sense the grid >> (frequency, voltage, et al) and self-switch between backup and grid power >> automatically? >> >> Sincerely, >> Sam >> >> >> [image: OnSite Energy] >> >> >> SAM HARALDSON >> Operations Specialist >> (406) 551-6135 >> 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 >> >> Locally owned and operated since 2012 >> [image: B Corporation] >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Fri Sep 20 12:22:15 2024 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2024 12:22:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ATS Brand Recommendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have had good experience with Kohler transfer switches but only the simpler RDT models should be used in conjunction with a complex custom system. (Kohler’s cheaper RXT models require a keep-alive signal from a Kohler generator) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Sep 20 12:57:50 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2024 10:57:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ATS Brand Recommendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <762f090c-e171-4394-88b1-3fc3acbd1c5b@solarray.com> I recently set up a Generac ATS to transfer to an existing Magnum off grid system.  Grid was added to the house later.  I ended up putting a 7ah 12 v battery, 120 vac outlet, and 1 A charger inside the enclosure to power the ATS. Gird sense was connected right to the grid input terminals in the ATS.  It worked, but Generac certainly frowned on this use of their equipment.   It was not easy figuring out the terminal strip connections, either. I thought it was slightly kludgy, and probably 5 years from now, it will stop working when the little battery fails.  They'll call a Generac dealer, who will have no idea what he's looking at. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 9/20/2024 8:33 AM, Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches wrote: > Wrenches, > > We are primarily a grid-tied solar EPC but like many solar companies > have a long history with small off-grid installations.  In the past > few years we have been tackling a handful of large, complex, grid-tied > battery-backup systems (sub 90 kwh) range with some working flawlessly > and some plagued with weekly quirks.  A weak link we've found in two > of these installations was our choice to use Generac Automatic > Transfer Switches.  In order for this ATS to sense a grid outage and > perform its transfer it relies on circuitry built into a Generac > generator as well as a source of 12v power (typically the generator > start battery). > > One of our sites doesn't have a generator at all and the other does, > but the grid sensing circuitry in the ATS is bypassed as we want the > Sol-Arks to be the first-line of power during an outage and not the > generator.  In order to accomplish this our electrician designed > custom circuitry for grid sensing which is powered by a separate 12v > source, has a 10 second delay, and flips the transfer switch during an > outage placing the loads under the control of the Sol-Arks. > > Our initial design for these systems did not take into consideration > that a Generac ATS doesn't have its own "brains" to grid sense and > since we are now relying on a small custom circuit and a small > external 12v power supply to act as a key player in an otherwise > powerful and robust backup system we are second guessing our equipment > choice.  What ATS solutions are Wrenches employing that we should be > considering? > > TL;DR - what are the simplest ATS solutions that sense the grid > (frequency, voltage, et al) and self-switch between backup and grid > power automatically? > > Sincerely, > Sam > > > OnSite Energy > > > SAM HARALDSON > Operations Specialist > (406) 551-6135 > 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 > Locally owned and operated since 2012 > B Corporation > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Fri Sep 20 13:29:32 2024 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2024 13:29:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ATS Brand Recommendations In-Reply-To: <762f090c-e171-4394-88b1-3fc3acbd1c5b@solarray.com> References: <762f090c-e171-4394-88b1-3fc3acbd1c5b@solarray.com> Message-ID: Nice. I’ve considered using a little jump battery once or twice but still haven’t had to. I put on my calendar ~3 years replace all gen-start FLA batteries because the consequences of them going dead are pretty bad. Curious if you guys think 3 years is a good rule of thumb. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Fri Sep 20 14:11:31 2024 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2024 18:11:31 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ATS Brand Recommendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We used to work with / recommend ASCO, but no longer. We had a site with dual ASC8000’s 400A 3 phase units switching between Gen 1 and Gen 2. Control board sensor problems arose and it failed to auto transfer back from Gen 2-1 due to sensor issues. Had to get client to open cabinet and affect a manual transfer. Despite having the extended warranty, they didn’t provide us service when requested. They also refused to sell us the board to replace. They didn’t refuse outright, just kept making appointments, failing to show up, one excuse after the other. The site was a 15 minute boat ride on a commercial water taxi and that was their latest excuse. Extremely unprofessional. We lost this client partially due to this. Kevin From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches Sent: September-20-24 8:45 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jerry Shafer Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] ATS Brand Recommendations Wrenches, If you are looking for a very good ATS, you need to look at ASCO that's what they do, from small less than 100 amp to high voltage multi 1000 amp units, they are a simple 2 wire start, l also use the Kohler products with no issues, l have AC Coupled off grid, DC Coupled on grid Fun times On Fri, Sep 20, 2024, 8:36 AM August Goers via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi Sam - It's been probably 6 or 8 years since I've selected a 3rd party automatic transfer switch, but we used to use Briggs & Stratton products with good results: https://energy.briggsandstratton.com/na/en_us/homeowners/products/standby-generators/transfer-switches-and-accessories.html At least at the time, these had internal circuitry to do the transfer between grid and offgrid operation with a pre-programmed delay of about 10 or 20 seconds. We paired these frequently with Sunny Islands. Now that the major ESS manufacturers have Microgrid Interconnect Devices (MIDs) for their systems, we don't have any reason to use these. Best, August Luminalt On Fri, Sep 20, 2024 at 7:35 AM Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches > wrote: Wrenches, We are primarily a grid-tied solar EPC but like many solar companies have a long history with small off-grid installations. In the past few years we have been tackling a handful of large, complex, grid-tied battery-backup systems (sub 90 kwh) range with some working flawlessly and some plagued with weekly quirks. A weak link we've found in two of these installations was our choice to use Generac Automatic Transfer Switches. In order for this ATS to sense a grid outage and perform its transfer it relies on circuitry built into a Generac generator as well as a source of 12v power (typically the generator start battery). One of our sites doesn't have a generator at all and the other does, but the grid sensing circuitry in the ATS is bypassed as we want the Sol-Arks to be the first-line of power during an outage and not the generator. In order to accomplish this our electrician designed custom circuitry for grid sensing which is powered by a separate 12v source, has a 10 second delay, and flips the transfer switch during an outage placing the loads under the control of the Sol-Arks. Our initial design for these systems did not take into consideration that a Generac ATS doesn't have its own "brains" to grid sense and since we are now relying on a small custom circuit and a small external 12v power supply to act as a key player in an otherwise powerful and robust backup system we are second guessing our equipment choice. What ATS solutions are Wrenches employing that we should be considering? TL;DR - what are the simplest ATS solutions that sense the grid (frequency, voltage, et al) and self-switch between backup and grid power automatically? Sincerely, Sam [OnSite Energy] SAM HARALDSON Operations Specialist (406) 551-6135 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 Locally owned and operated since 2012 [B Corporation] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Fri Sep 20 17:02:16 2024 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2024 17:02:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ATS Brand Recommendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm gonna add that the ASCO is the way to go. They offer both normal ATS and with a service entrance rated breaker. I have dozens out there on GTBB systems. What I really like about them is you can adjust a pot so that there is little to no time delay in which the home switches over to battery. Unlike a generator where you need a bit of time before the connection. Clients have called to inform me that sometimes the switch over happens so quickly their electronic devices aren't even aware of a grid outage let alone the client themselves. That's my 2 cents. Have a great weekend, Christopher On Fri, Sep 20, 2024 at 2:12 PM Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We used to work with / recommend ASCO, but no longer. We had a site with > dual ASC8000’s 400A 3 phase units switching between Gen 1 and Gen 2. > Control board sensor problems arose and it failed to auto transfer back > from Gen 2-1 due to sensor issues. Had to get client to open cabinet and > affect a manual transfer. > > > > Despite having the extended warranty, they didn’t provide us service when > requested. They also refused to sell us the board to replace. They didn’t > refuse outright, just kept making appointments, failing to show up, one > excuse after the other. The site was a 15 minute boat ride on a commercial > water taxi and that was their latest excuse. Extremely unprofessional. We > lost this client partially due to this. > > > > Kevin > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* September-20-24 8:45 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jerry Shafer > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] ATS Brand Recommendations > > > > Wrenches, > > If you are looking for a very good ATS, you need to look at ASCO that's > what they do, from small less than 100 amp to high voltage multi 1000 amp > units, they are a simple 2 wire start, l also use the Kohler products with > no issues, l have AC Coupled off grid, DC Coupled on grid > > Fun times > > > > On Fri, Sep 20, 2024, 8:36 AM August Goers via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi Sam - > > > > It's been probably 6 or 8 years since I've selected a 3rd party automatic > transfer switch, but we used to use Briggs & Stratton products with good > results: > > > > > https://energy.briggsandstratton.com/na/en_us/homeowners/products/standby-generators/transfer-switches-and-accessories.html > > > > At least at the time, these had internal circuitry to do the transfer > between grid and offgrid operation with a pre-programmed delay of about 10 > or 20 seconds. We paired these frequently with Sunny Islands. > > > > Now that the major ESS manufacturers have Microgrid Interconnect Devices > (MIDs) for their systems, we don't have any reason to use these. > > > > Best, > > > > August > > Luminalt > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 20, 2024 at 7:35 AM Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Wrenches, > > > > We are primarily a grid-tied solar EPC but like many solar companies have > a long history with small off-grid installations. In the past few years we > have been tackling a handful of large, complex, grid-tied battery-backup > systems (sub 90 kwh) range with some working flawlessly and some plagued > with weekly quirks. A weak link we've found in two of these installations > was our choice to use Generac Automatic Transfer Switches. In order for > this ATS to sense a grid outage and perform its transfer it relies on > circuitry built into a Generac generator as well as a source of 12v power > (typically the generator start battery). > > > > One of our sites doesn't have a generator at all and the other does, but > the grid sensing circuitry in the ATS is bypassed as we want the Sol-Arks > to be the first-line of power during an outage and not the generator. In > order to accomplish this our electrician designed custom circuitry for grid > sensing which is powered by a separate 12v source, has a 10 second delay, > and flips the transfer switch during an outage placing the loads under the > control of the Sol-Arks. > > > > Our initial design for these systems did not take into consideration that > a Generac ATS doesn't have its own "brains" to grid sense and since we are > now relying on a small custom circuit and a small external 12v power supply > to act as a key player in an otherwise powerful and robust backup system we > are second guessing our equipment choice. What ATS solutions are Wrenches > employing that we should be considering? > > > > TL;DR - what are the simplest ATS solutions that sense the grid > (frequency, voltage, et al) and self-switch between backup and grid power > automatically? > > > > Sincerely, > > Sam > > > > > > [image: OnSite Energy] > > > *SAM HARALDSON * > > Operations Specialist > > (406) 551-6135 > > 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 > > > Locally owned and operated since 2012 > > [image: B Corporation] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Sep 20 18:22:51 2024 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2024 22:22:51 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ATS Brand Recommendations In-Reply-To: References: <762f090c-e171-4394-88b1-3fc3acbd1c5b@solarray.com> Message-ID: We ran to an install by others that had a Radian 8048 for backup tied to a Generac auto transfer switch & the 12vdc from the Radian was the 12volt power source the Generac control card had died & we had to buy another Generac ATS & gut it to get another controller, they would not sell just the controller card. We installed the entire switch gear & controller. _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: david quattro via RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] ATS Brand Recommendations Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2024 17:29:32 +0000 Size: 10236 URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Fri Sep 20 21:32:38 2024 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2024 18:32:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ATS Brand Recommendations In-Reply-To: References: <762f090c-e171-4394-88b1-3fc3acbd1c5b@solarray.com> Message-ID: Even the industrial Generac ATS's use plastic gears now. They're awful and parts like the gears, CPU's and sensors have been unobtanium. My preference has been Eaton first and then Asco. On Fri, Sep 20, 2024 at 3:24 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We ran to an install by others that had a Radian 8048 for backup tied to a > Generac auto transfer switch & the 12vdc from the Radian was the 12volt > power source the Generac control card had died & we had to buy another > Generac ATS & gut it to get another controller, they would not sell just > the controller card. We installed the entire switch gear & controller. > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! > > C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com > > W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com > > *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Mon Sep 23 08:19:33 2024 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (David Palumbo) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2024 12:19:33 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM recommendations? Message-ID: Wrenches, I have decided that AGM batteries would be best for a rental house battery replacement that I own and manage. I'm looking for a good quality brand that has AGM's that will get me up to the 900 to 1,000 AH range for my 24v system. I have not found any distributors with Surrette's that available right now. I need to install in mid-October. What other manufacturers of AGM's should I be looking at right now? Thanks, Dave Palumbo Hyde Park, VT 802-371-8678 text or voice -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From integrityenergy101 at gmail.com Mon Sep 23 10:47:42 2024 From: integrityenergy101 at gmail.com (Amos Post) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2024 10:47:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Epprom D Technical Bulletin Message-ID: <4DCBC40A-053A-4627-9A26-5F1AFCA78F79@gmail.com> HI Wrenches, We have an old SMA SB SWR 2500U inverter with the infamous Epprom D Error. I remember SMA coming out with a technical bulletin to address this via a reset process and I can remember performing the reset several times, but I don’t remember the exact process/which pins to jump. When I do a google search for the bulletin, I can’t find it. Does anyone have a copy of remember the process to try the reset? ( I know it doesn’t always work). Thanks, Amos Amos Post Integrity Energy W 802.763.7023 C 802.291.2188 ienergyVT.com Facebook -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IE LOGO 150x78.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Mon Sep 23 10:51:36 2024 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2024 09:51:36 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Epprom D Technical Bulletin In-Reply-To: <4DCBC40A-053A-4627-9A26-5F1AFCA78F79@gmail.com> References: <4DCBC40A-053A-4627-9A26-5F1AFCA78F79@gmail.com> Message-ID: Amos, Here you go. I never throw anything away :-} Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE On Mon, Sep 23, 2024 at 9:48 AM Amos Post via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > HI Wrenches, > > We have an old SMA SB SWR 2500U inverter with the infamous Epprom D > Error. I remember SMA coming out with a technical bulletin to address this > via a reset process and I can remember performing the reset several times, > but I don’t remember the exact process/which pins to jump. When I do a > google search for the bulletin, I can’t find it. > > Does anyone have a copy of remember the process to try the reset? ( I > know it doesn’t always work). > > Thanks, > Amos > > > > > Amos Post > Integrity Energy > W 802.763.7023 > C 802.291.2188 > ienergyVT.com > Facebook > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IE LOGO 150x78.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Tech Alert 3174 - EEPROM Error Message Remedy v12.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 406210 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tom.mccalmont at pairedpower.com Mon Sep 23 10:55:14 2024 From: tom.mccalmont at pairedpower.com (Tom McCalmont) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2024 07:55:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Epprom D Technical Bulletin In-Reply-To: <4DCBC40A-053A-4627-9A26-5F1AFCA78F79@gmail.com> References: <4DCBC40A-053A-4627-9A26-5F1AFCA78F79@gmail.com> Message-ID: Here’s a link to a procedure that will correct it: https://re-wrenches.re-wrenches.narkive.com/nhEOw8Ge/sma-eeprom-d-error-fixes If you can find a copy of it, there is also a firmware fix you can upload that will correct it so it does not recur again. Good luck! Tom McCalmont CEO, Paired Power pairedpower.com | LinkedIn Direct: (669) 877-2931 > On Sep 23, 2024, at 7:47 AM, Amos Post via RE-wrenches wrote: > > HI Wrenches, > > We have an old SMA SB SWR 2500U inverter with the infamous Epprom D Error. I remember SMA coming out with a technical bulletin to address this via a reset process and I can remember performing the reset several times, but I don’t remember the exact process/which pins to jump. When I do a google search for the bulletin, I can’t find it. > > Does anyone have a copy of remember the process to try the reset? ( I know it doesn’t always work). > > Thanks, > Amos > > > > > Amos Post > Integrity Energy > W 802.763.7023 > C 802.291.2188 > ienergyVT.com > Facebook > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 1578 bytes Desc: not available URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Mon Sep 23 10:57:43 2024 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2024 07:57:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM recommendations? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <608E37D8-4140-4248-8A38-F65EBFE01B84@sindelarsolar.com> Dave, my experience is by now pretty dated, but I never had a failure or substandard performance from Fullriver AGMs. Allan > On Sep 23, 2024, at 5:20 AM, David Palumbo via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Wrenches, > > I have decided that AGM batteries would be best for a rental house battery replacement that I own and manage. > > I'm looking for a good quality brand that has AGM's that will get me up to the 900 to 1,000 AH range for my 24v system. > > I have not found any distributors with Surrette's that available right now. I need to install in mid-October. > > What other manufacturers of AGM's should I be looking at right now? > > Thanks, > Dave Palumbo > Hyde Park, VT > 802-371-8678 text or voice > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Mon Sep 23 11:19:57 2024 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2024 09:19:57 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM recommendations? In-Reply-To: <608E37D8-4140-4248-8A38-F65EBFE01B84@sindelarsolar.com> References: <608E37D8-4140-4248-8A38-F65EBFE01B84@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <14339DB9-E118-43AB-8F94-79545E8323AA@starlightsolar.com> I too can recommend FullRiver. We had one issue where they failed to take care of a warranty claim that we believe we were entitled to. Otherwise, I consider them to be the best quality LA AGM battery. Larry Crutcher Starlight Power Systems On Sep 23, 2024, at 8:57 AM, Allan Sindelar via RE-wrenches wrote: Dave, my experience is by now pretty dated, but I never had a failure or substandard performance from Fullriver AGMs. Allan > On Sep 23, 2024, at 5:20 AM, David Palumbo via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Wrenches, > > I have decided that AGM batteries would be best for a rental house battery replacement that I own and manage. > > I'm looking for a good quality brand that has AGM's that will get me up to the 900 to 1,000 AH range for my 24v system. > > I have not found any distributors with Surrette's that available right now. I need to install in mid-October. > > What other manufacturers of AGM's should I be looking at right now? > > Thanks, > Dave Palumbo > Hyde Park, VT > 802-371-8678 text or voice > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Mon Sep 23 11:23:04 2024 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2024 10:23:04 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM recommendations? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9CBDD3D8-9AAE-4ABA-A3EA-58E8C6229F41@mavericksolar.com> David I have installed hundreds of Concorde AGMs and about same quantity of FullRiver AGMs. About 225 off grid systems using 12 or 24 AGMs in each system depending on need. Concorde offers a 2V 900Ah and 6V 300Ah “tall golf car” battery. And they have an L-16 size as well similar to FullRiver. FullRiver offers a 6V 400Ah and 2V 1150Ah L-16 size. I personally own 24 each FullRiver 6V 400Ah bank (48V nominal) for my main house backup (installed since 2017, Outback Radian). And I have 24 2V 1200Ah Concorde AGMs in a rental. (48V, XW6048). I have a broker / supplier for both (same guy). I’ll text his contact. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On Sep 23, 2024, at 7:20 AM, David Palumbo via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Wrenches, > > I have decided that AGM batteries would be best for a rental house battery replacement that I own and manage. > > I'm looking for a good quality brand that has AGM's that will get me up to the 900 to 1,000 AH range for my 24v system. > > I have not found any distributors with Surrette's that available right now. I need to install in mid-October. > > What other manufacturers of AGM's should I be looking at right now? > > Thanks, > Dave Palumbo > Hyde Park, VT > 802-371-8678 text or voice > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Sep 23 12:06:01 2024 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2024 09:06:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Epprom D Technical Bulletin In-Reply-To: <4DCBC40A-053A-4627-9A26-5F1AFCA78F79@gmail.com> References: <4DCBC40A-053A-4627-9A26-5F1AFCA78F79@gmail.com> Message-ID: Wrenches, I may still have some new eproms if needed, reach out if l can help Jerry On Mon, Sep 23, 2024, 7:48 AM Amos Post via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > HI Wrenches, > > We have an old SMA SB SWR 2500U inverter with the infamous Epprom D > Error. I remember SMA coming out with a technical bulletin to address this > via a reset process and I can remember performing the reset several times, > but I don’t remember the exact process/which pins to jump. When I do a > google search for the bulletin, I can’t find it. > > Does anyone have a copy of remember the process to try the reset? ( I > know it doesn’t always work). > > Thanks, > Amos > > > > > Amos Post > Integrity Energy > W 802.763.7023 > C 802.291.2188 > ienergyVT.com > Facebook > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IE LOGO 150x78.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IE LOGO 150x78.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Mon Sep 23 16:22:01 2024 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2024 16:22:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback RTS Message-ID: Are all Outback temperature sensors the same? I need some for Radian GS8048 (not A). Is there a good place to get them these days? Thank you, Drake -- _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Mon Sep 23 16:58:21 2024 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2024 13:58:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback RTS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Drake, To my knowledge, they still need to change their battery temperature sensors... The BTS on the Radian is the same as the Charge controllers and FX and FXRs... If they did, that would turn out a real mess... Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Mon, Sep 23, 2024 at 1:22 PM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Are all Outback temperature sensors the same? > > I need some for Radian GS8048 (not A). Is there a good place to get them > these days? > > Thank you, > > Drake > -- > > > *Drake Chamberlin* > > *Athens Electric LLC* > > *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Mon Sep 23 18:08:39 2024 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2024 15:08:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback RTS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3ffdfff3-f468-f373-4a20-a5c2daaf3b8a@midnitesolar.com> As I remember, the OB BTS's are 10K Ohms (@25C) thermistors. NTCs.   Same as MidNite's BTS. You might try plugging in a MidNite BTS and see if the temperatures shown on the OB come out right.  I don't have an MX60 handy to try otherwise I would have checked this. If it doesn't work, then it is a simple wiring of that phone jack or the phone cable. 🌜boB🌛 On 9/23/2024 1:58 PM, Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches wrote: > Drake, > > To my knowledge, they still need to change their battery temperature > sensors...  The BTS on the Radian is the same as the Charge > controllers and FX and FXRs... > > If they did, that would turn out a real mess... > > > > Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager > t+1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 > f+1.902.597.8447 esteve at surrette.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only > for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or > privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other > use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information > is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the > sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > On Mon, Sep 23, 2024 at 1:22 PM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > > Are all Outback temperature sensors the same? > I need some for Radian GS8048 (not A). Is there a good place to > get them these days? > Thank you, > Drake > -- > > /Drake Chamberlin/ > > /Athens Electric LLC/ > > /Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810/ > > /NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional/ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Sep 23 18:36:27 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2024 16:36:27 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM recommendations? In-Reply-To: <9CBDD3D8-9AAE-4ABA-A3EA-58E8C6229F41@mavericksolar.com> References: <9CBDD3D8-9AAE-4ABA-A3EA-58E8C6229F41@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: HI All, You’ve all obviously had people take way better care of their VRLA batteries than I have. And it seems as though VRLA and FLA are both not lasting as long as they used to for reasons I don’t understand. When I hear someone say yeah I want VRLA for my rental, I can only say no way would I do that. But maybe you’ve got really really good renters. My experience with renters is they are really good at killing batteries. The last renter we had, after he killed the batteries through neglect, we told him he had to replace them, and he did. Then it was great as I didn’t care what he did. At this point with the cost of LFP vs VRLA and cycle life, availability etc and all that, LFP is the clear winner for me. With the exception of sub freezing temperatures. Just my 2 cents jay > On Sep 23, 2024, at 9:23 AM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches wrote: > > David > > I have installed hundreds of Concorde AGMs and about same quantity of FullRiver AGMs. About 225 off grid systems using 12 or 24 AGMs in each system depending on need. > > Concorde offers a 2V 900Ah and 6V 300Ah “tall golf car” battery. And they have an L-16 size as well similar to FullRiver. > > FullRiver offers a 6V 400Ah and 2V 1150Ah L-16 size. > > I personally own 24 each FullRiver 6V 400Ah bank (48V nominal) for my main house backup (installed since 2017, Outback Radian). > > And I have 24 2V 1200Ah Concorde AGMs in a rental. (48V, XW6048). > > I have a broker / supplier for both (same guy). I’ll text his contact. > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > > >> On Sep 23, 2024, at 7:20 AM, David Palumbo via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >>  >> Wrenches, >> >> I have decided that AGM batteries would be best for a rental house battery replacement that I own and manage. >> >> I'm looking for a good quality brand that has AGM's that will get me up to the 900 to 1,000 AH range for my 24v system. >> >> I have not found any distributors with Surrette's that available right now. I need to install in mid-October. >> >> What other manufacturers of AGM's should I be looking at right now? >> >> Thanks, >> Dave Palumbo >> Hyde Park, VT >> 802-371-8678 text or voice >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Mon Sep 23 18:38:25 2024 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2024 15:38:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback RTS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm sorry, guys. My head is killing me; I shouldn't be working! I picked up the Flu at RE+! I'm just now starting to get over it. I meant to say: To my knowledge, they didn't change their battery temperature sensors... The BTS on the Radian is the same as the Charge controllers and FX and FXRs... If they did, that would turn out a real mess... Bob, I can't remember the resistance, but the Outback and Midnite BTS were different. I seem to remember that we had a customer do this, which caused problems with the charging. But again, I'm getting old, and this flu is killing me! Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Mon, Sep 23, 2024 at 1:58 PM Steve Higgins wrote: > Drake, > > To my knowledge, they still need to change their battery temperature > sensors... The BTS on the Radian is the same as the Charge controllers and > FX and FXRs... > > If they did, that would turn out a real mess... > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager > t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 > f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for > the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged > material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the > taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If > you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or > destroy this message and all copies. > ------------------------------ > > > On Mon, Sep 23, 2024 at 1:22 PM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> >> Are all Outback temperature sensors the same? >> >> I need some for Radian GS8048 (not A). Is there a good place to get them >> these days? >> >> Thank you, >> >> Drake >> -- >> >> >> *Drake Chamberlin* >> >> *Athens Electric LLC* >> >> *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810* >> >> *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Mon Sep 23 19:59:47 2024 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2024 16:59:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback RTS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Fair enough Steve.   You are probably right.  Better to be safe than sorry. The Resistance  vs. Temperature curve could have been different. The old Trace  BTS's were 100K Ohms.   The Magnum BTS's were different also. Feel better soon ! 🌜boB🌛 On 9/23/2024 3:38 PM, Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches wrote: > I'm sorry, guys. My head is killing me; I shouldn't be working! I > picked up the Flu at RE+!   I'm just now starting to get over it. > >  I meant to say: > > To my knowledge, they didn't change their battery temperature > sensors...  The BTS on the Radian is the same as the Charge > controllers and FX and FXRs... > > If they did, that would turn out a real mess... > > Bob, I can't remember the resistance, but the Outback and Midnite BTS > were different. I seem to remember that we had a customer do this, > which caused problems with the charging. > > But again, I'm getting old, and this flu is killing me! > > > > Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager > t+1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 > f+1.902.597.8447 esteve at surrette.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only > for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or > privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other > use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information > is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the > sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > On Mon, Sep 23, 2024 at 1:58 PM Steve Higgins wrote: > > Drake, > > To my knowledge, they still need to change their battery > temperature sensors...  The BTS on the Radian is the same as the > Charge controllers and FX and FXRs... > > If they did, that would turn out a real mess... > > > > Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager > t+1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 > f+1.902.597.8447 esteve at surrette.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended > only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary > and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution > or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this > information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, > please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and > all copies. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > On Mon, Sep 23, 2024 at 1:22 PM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > > Are all Outback temperature sensors the same? > I need some for Radian GS8048 (not A). Is there a good place > to get them these days? > Thank you, > Drake > -- > > /Drake Chamberlin/ > > /Athens Electric LLC/ > > /Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810/ > > /NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional/ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't > work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solareagle at solareagle.com Mon Sep 23 21:23:28 2024 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (solareagle at solareagle.com) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2024 18:23:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM recommendations? In-Reply-To: References: <9CBDD3D8-9AAE-4ABA-A3EA-58E8C6229F41@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: I have recently been installing lead carbon VRLA batteries and they have some nice characteristics over conventional AGM's such as rapid charge and ’allegedly’ significantly reduced sulphation. I have generally avoided VRLA and recently had a client toast a $15k set of Rolls (sulphation) in a very short time due to incorrect charge settings. This is a Canadian distributor but similar batteries may be available in the U.S. https://hubpower.ca/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/HC6-420-Spec-Sheet.pdf HC6-420-Spec-Sheet PDF Document · 378 KB Ron > On Sep 23, 2024, at 3:36 PM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > HI All, > > You’ve all obviously had people take way better care of their VRLA batteries than I have. And it seems as though VRLA and FLA are both not lasting as long as they used to for reasons I don’t understand. > > When I hear someone say yeah I want VRLA for my rental, I can only say no way would I do that. But maybe you’ve got really really good renters. > My experience with renters is they are really good at killing batteries. The last renter we had, after he killed the batteries through neglect, we told him he had to replace them, and he did. Then it was great as I didn’t care what he did. > > At this point with the cost of LFP vs VRLA and cycle life, availability etc and all that, LFP is the clear winner for me. With the exception of sub freezing temperatures. > > Just my 2 cents > > jay > > > > > > > > > > > > >> On Sep 23, 2024, at 9:23 AM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> >> David >> >> I have installed hundreds of Concorde AGMs and about same quantity of FullRiver AGMs. About 225 off grid systems using 12 or 24 AGMs in each system depending on need. >> >> Concorde offers a 2V 900Ah and 6V 300Ah “tall golf car” battery. And they have an L-16 size as well similar to FullRiver. >> >> FullRiver offers a 6V 400Ah and 2V 1150Ah L-16 size. >> >> I personally own 24 each FullRiver 6V 400Ah bank (48V nominal) for my main house backup (installed since 2017, Outback Radian). >> >> And I have 24 2V 1200Ah Concorde AGMs in a rental. (48V, XW6048). >> >> I have a broker / supplier for both (same guy). I’ll text his contact. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Maverick >> >> Maverick Brown >> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 >> Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. >> • Solar Commander Remote Power >> • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection >> maverick at mavericksolar.com >> 512-460-9825 >> >> >> >>> On Sep 23, 2024, at 7:20 AM, David Palumbo via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> >>>  >>> Wrenches, >>> >>> I have decided that AGM batteries would be best for a rental house battery replacement that I own and manage. >>> >>> I'm looking for a good quality brand that has AGM's that will get me up to the 900 to 1,000 AH range for my 24v system. >>> >>> I have not found any distributors with Surrette's that available right now. I need to install in mid-October. >>> >>> What other manufacturers of AGM's should I be looking at right now? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Dave Palumbo >>> Hyde Park, VT >>> 802-371-8678 text or voice >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: preview.png Type: image/png Size: 140108 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Sep 23 22:09:30 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2024 19:09:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM recommendations? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David: I use the Deka UnigyII. They come in various ratings and sizes. They have been very reliable. Take the time to learn the model numbering scheme so you get the right ones for your project. Unless you have access to the back side of the stack get the interlocking version. These batteries can be tedious to install because they are heavy and you have to stack them. I can provide some tips on handling them. I’ve been meaning to make a web-page on the subject. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *David Palumbo via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Monday, September 23, 2024 5:20 AM *To:* Wrench List *Cc:* David Palumbo *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] AGM recommendations? Wrenches, I have decided that AGM batteries would be best for a rental house battery replacement that I own and manage. I'm looking for a good quality brand that has AGM's that will get me up to the 900 to 1,000 AH range for my 24v system. I have not found any distributors with Surrette's that available right now. I need to install in mid-October. What other manufacturers of AGM's should I be looking at right now? Thanks, Dave Palumbo Hyde Park, VT 802-371-8678 text or voice -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From greg at remotepowerinc.com Mon Sep 23 22:29:47 2024 From: greg at remotepowerinc.com (greg egan) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2024 18:29:47 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] favortie micro inverters? Message-ID: <0b466ba0-b9dd-41e3-a306-0c52195db4df@remotepowerinc.com> Esteemed wrenches, Have a client that is grid connected (not my usual client) and looking to do solar without back up.  Has shading issues so I'm thinking micros would work best for this application, plus take care of rapid shut down without needing extra devices/wiring.  Problem is I have not ever installed micros. Any recommendations on brands /models that have been reliable? Decent tech support?  Customer just wants something that works and is relatively simple to navigate the online monitoring.  Probably 4-5 kW so not a huge system. Thanks in advance, I appreciate it! Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. Fairbanks, AK From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Mon Sep 23 23:29:12 2024 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2024 20:29:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] favortie micro inverters? In-Reply-To: <0b466ba0-b9dd-41e3-a306-0c52195db4df@remotepowerinc.com> References: <0b466ba0-b9dd-41e3-a306-0c52195db4df@remotepowerinc.com> Message-ID: <8C869E65-E8ED-4F9D-BD30-0FE33619A811@gmail.com> Enphase… Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > On Sep 23, 2024, at 7:30 PM, greg egan via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Esteemed wrenches, > > Have a client that is grid connected (not my usual client) and looking to do solar without back up. Has shading issues so I'm thinking micros would work best for this application, plus take care of rapid shut down without needing extra devices/wiring. Problem is I have not ever installed micros. > > Any recommendations on brands /models that have been reliable? Decent tech support? Customer just wants something that works and is relatively simple to navigate the online monitoring. Probably 4-5 kW so not a huge system. > > Thanks in advance, I appreciate it! > > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc. > Fairbanks, AK > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From greg at remotepowerinc.com Mon Sep 23 23:41:56 2024 From: greg at remotepowerinc.com (greg egan) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2024 19:41:56 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] favortie micro inverters? In-Reply-To: <8C869E65-E8ED-4F9D-BD30-0FE33619A811@gmail.com> References: <0b466ba0-b9dd-41e3-a306-0c52195db4df@remotepowerinc.com> <8C869E65-E8ED-4F9D-BD30-0FE33619A811@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6187a1e1-9510-48a2-a06b-b9d44b6cab92@remotepowerinc.com> Michael, thank you.  Any particular reason you like them best? Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. Fairbanks, AK On 9/23/2024 7:29 PM, MDElectricSolar wrote: > Enphase… > > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > >> On Sep 23, 2024, at 7:30 PM, greg egan via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Esteemed wrenches, >> >> Have a client that is grid connected (not my usual client) and looking to do solar without back up. Has shading issues so I'm thinking micros would work best for this application, plus take care of rapid shut down without needing extra devices/wiring. Problem is I have not ever installed micros. >> >> Any recommendations on brands /models that have been reliable? Decent tech support? Customer just wants something that works and is relatively simple to navigate the online monitoring. Probably 4-5 kW so not a huge system. >> >> Thanks in advance, I appreciate it! >> >> Greg Egan >> Remote Power Inc. >> Fairbanks, AK >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Mon Sep 23 23:47:46 2024 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2024 20:47:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] favortie micro inverters? In-Reply-To: <6187a1e1-9510-48a2-a06b-b9d44b6cab92@remotepowerinc.com> References: <6187a1e1-9510-48a2-a06b-b9d44b6cab92@remotepowerinc.com> Message-ID: <05684554-ECD1-4CE3-A8D8-1B938EF95985@gmail.com> Been around forever, good tech support, the products have been improved and refined, easy to install, good monitoring platform. Not sure how they would fare in Alaskan winters though… Maybe an sma installed indoors? Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > On Sep 23, 2024, at 8:41 PM, greg egan wrote: > > Michael, thank you. Any particular reason you like them best? > > > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc. > Fairbanks, AK > >> On 9/23/2024 7:29 PM, MDElectricSolar wrote: >> Enphase… >> >> Michael D Nelson >> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >> 707-684-0064 mobile >> 707-884-1862 office >> www.mdelectricsolar.com >> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >> >> >>>> On Sep 23, 2024, at 7:30 PM, greg egan via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Esteemed wrenches, >>> >>> Have a client that is grid connected (not my usual client) and looking to do solar without back up. Has shading issues so I'm thinking micros would work best for this application, plus take care of rapid shut down without needing extra devices/wiring. Problem is I have not ever installed micros. >>> >>> Any recommendations on brands /models that have been reliable? Decent tech support? Customer just wants something that works and is relatively simple to navigate the online monitoring. Probably 4-5 kW so not a huge system. >>> >>> Thanks in advance, I appreciate it! >>> >>> Greg Egan >>> Remote Power Inc. >>> Fairbanks, AK >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > From greg at remotepowerinc.com Tue Sep 24 00:05:36 2024 From: greg at remotepowerinc.com (greg egan) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2024 20:05:36 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] favortie micro inverters? In-Reply-To: <05684554-ECD1-4CE3-A8D8-1B938EF95985@gmail.com> References: <6187a1e1-9510-48a2-a06b-b9d44b6cab92@remotepowerinc.com> <05684554-ECD1-4CE3-A8D8-1B938EF95985@gmail.com> Message-ID: Good intel.  I believe their micros are rated to -40C/F.  If they quit working at that temp it would be okay as long as they start back up when if warms up.  Normally when it's that cold the sun is pretty scarce at this latitude. Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. Fairbanks, AK On 9/23/2024 7:47 PM, MDElectricSolar wrote: > Been around forever, good tech support, the products have been improved and refined, easy to install, good monitoring platform. Not sure how they would fare in Alaskan winters though… > > Maybe an sma installed indoors? > > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > >> On Sep 23, 2024, at 8:41 PM, greg egan wrote: >> >> Michael, thank you. Any particular reason you like them best? >> >> >> Greg Egan >> Remote Power Inc. >> Fairbanks, AK >> >>> On 9/23/2024 7:29 PM, MDElectricSolar wrote: >>> Enphase… >>> >>> Michael D Nelson >>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>> 707-684-0064 mobile >>> 707-884-1862 office >>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>> >>> >>>>> On Sep 23, 2024, at 7:30 PM, greg egan via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> Esteemed wrenches, >>>> >>>> Have a client that is grid connected (not my usual client) and looking to do solar without back up. Has shading issues so I'm thinking micros would work best for this application, plus take care of rapid shut down without needing extra devices/wiring. Problem is I have not ever installed micros. >>>> >>>> Any recommendations on brands /models that have been reliable? Decent tech support? Customer just wants something that works and is relatively simple to navigate the online monitoring. Probably 4-5 kW so not a huge system. >>>> >>>> Thanks in advance, I appreciate it! >>>> >>>> Greg Egan >>>> Remote Power Inc. >>>> Fairbanks, AK >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> From david at quattrosolar.com Tue Sep 24 01:07:32 2024 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2024 01:07:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] favortie micro inverters? In-Reply-To: References: <6187a1e1-9510-48a2-a06b-b9d44b6cab92@remotepowerinc.com> <05684554-ECD1-4CE3-A8D8-1B938EF95985@gmail.com> Message-ID: I used Chilicon on a couple installs, and Enphase is far better. On Mon, Sep 23, 2024 at 9:05 PM greg egan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Good intel. I believe their micros are rated to -40C/F. If they quit > working at that temp it would be okay as long as they start back up when > if warms up. Normally when it's that cold the sun is pretty scarce at > this latitude. > > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc. > Fairbanks, AK > > On 9/23/2024 7:47 PM, MDElectricSolar wrote: > > Been around forever, good tech support, the products have been improved > and refined, easy to install, good monitoring platform. Not sure how they > would fare in Alaskan winters though… > > > > Maybe an sma installed indoors? > > > > Michael D Nelson > > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > > 707-684-0064 mobile > > 707-884-1862 office > > www.mdelectricsolar.com > > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > > > >> On Sep 23, 2024, at 8:41 PM, greg egan wrote: > >> > >> Michael, thank you. Any particular reason you like them best? > >> > >> > >> Greg Egan > >> Remote Power Inc. > >> Fairbanks, AK > >> > >>> On 9/23/2024 7:29 PM, MDElectricSolar wrote: > >>> Enphase… > >>> > >>> Michael D Nelson > >>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > >>> 707-684-0064 mobile > >>> 707-884-1862 office > >>> www.mdelectricsolar.com > >>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > >>> > >>> > >>>>> On Sep 23, 2024, at 7:30 PM, greg egan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >>>> Esteemed wrenches, > >>>> > >>>> Have a client that is grid connected (not my usual client) and > looking to do solar without back up. Has shading issues so I'm thinking > micros would work best for this application, plus take care of rapid shut > down without needing extra devices/wiring. Problem is I have not ever > installed micros. > >>>> > >>>> Any recommendations on brands /models that have been reliable? Decent > tech support? Customer just wants something that works and is relatively > simple to navigate the online monitoring. Probably 4-5 kW so not a huge > system. > >>>> > >>>> Thanks in advance, I appreciate it! > >>>> > >>>> Greg Egan > >>>> Remote Power Inc. > >>>> Fairbanks, AK > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >>>> > >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > >>>> > >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >>>> > >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: > >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>>> > >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>>> > >>>> List rules & etiquette: > >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >>>> > >>>> Check out or update participant bios: > >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > >>>> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From greg at remotepowerinc.com Tue Sep 24 01:17:18 2024 From: greg at remotepowerinc.com (greg egan) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2024 21:17:18 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] favortie micro inverters? In-Reply-To: References: <6187a1e1-9510-48a2-a06b-b9d44b6cab92@remotepowerinc.com> <05684554-ECD1-4CE3-A8D8-1B938EF95985@gmail.com> Message-ID: <547a3db8-4d3d-4880-b679-8f6b004665c9@remotepowerinc.com> Dave, Was reading about AP systems DC 3's tonight.  Will start reading Enphase in the morning.  Thanks for sharing. Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. Fairbanks, AK On 9/23/2024 9:07 PM, david quattro wrote: > I used Chilicon on a couple installs, and Enphase is far better. > > > > > > On Mon, Sep 23, 2024 at 9:05 PM greg egan via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Good intel.  I believe their micros are rated to -40C/F.  If they > quit > working at that temp it would be okay as long as they start back > up when > if warms up.  Normally when it's that cold the sun is pretty > scarce at > this latitude. > > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc. > Fairbanks, AK > > On 9/23/2024 7:47 PM, MDElectricSolar wrote: > > Been around forever, good tech support, the products have been > improved and refined, easy to install, good monitoring platform. > Not sure how they would fare in Alaskan winters though… > > > > Maybe an sma installed indoors? > > > > Michael D Nelson > > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > > 707-684-0064 mobile > > 707-884-1862 office > > www.mdelectricsolar.com > > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > > > > >> On Sep 23, 2024, at 8:41 PM, greg egan > wrote: > >> > >> Michael, thank you.  Any particular reason you like them best? > >> > >> > >> Greg Egan > >> Remote Power Inc. > >> Fairbanks, AK > >> > >>> On 9/23/2024 7:29 PM, MDElectricSolar wrote: > >>> Enphase… > >>> > >>> Michael D Nelson > >>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > >>> 707-684-0064 mobile > >>> 707-884-1862 office > >>> www.mdelectricsolar.com > >>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > >>> > >>> > >>>>> On Sep 23, 2024, at 7:30 PM, greg egan via RE-wrenches > wrote: > >>>> Esteemed wrenches, > >>>> > >>>> Have a client that is grid connected (not my usual client) > and looking to do solar without back up. Has shading issues so I'm > thinking micros would work best for this application, plus take > care of rapid shut down without needing extra devices/wiring.  > Problem is I have not ever installed micros. > >>>> > >>>> Any recommendations on brands /models that have been > reliable? Decent tech support?  Customer just wants something that > works and is relatively simple to navigate the online monitoring.  > Probably 4-5 kW so not a huge system. > >>>> > >>>> Thanks in advance, I appreciate it! > >>>> > >>>> Greg Egan > >>>> Remote Power Inc. > >>>> Fairbanks, AK > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >>>> > >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > >>>> > >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >>>> > >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: > >>>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>>> > >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't > work, try the other: > >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > >>>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>>> > >>>> List rules & etiquette: > >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >>>> > >>>> Check out or update participant bios: > >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > >>>> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Sep 24 06:53:05 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2024 06:53:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] favortie micro inverters? In-Reply-To: <547a3db8-4d3d-4880-b679-8f6b004665c9@remotepowerinc.com> References: <6187a1e1-9510-48a2-a06b-b9d44b6cab92@remotepowerinc.com> <05684554-ECD1-4CE3-A8D8-1B938EF95985@gmail.com> <547a3db8-4d3d-4880-b679-8f6b004665c9@remotepowerinc.com> Message-ID: Enphase DOMINATES the space. I can't see any reason to go another direction. Reliability and service just continues to improve. If you are looking to save a few bucks, I think you will get what you pay for. There isn't enough potential savings in a smaller brand to make it worthwhile. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 1:17 AM greg egan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Dave, > > Was reading about AP systems DC 3's tonight. Will start reading Enphase > in the morning. Thanks for sharing. > > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc. > Fairbanks, AK > > > > On 9/23/2024 9:07 PM, david quattro wrote: > > I used Chilicon on a couple installs, and Enphase is far better. > > > > > > On Mon, Sep 23, 2024 at 9:05 PM greg egan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Good intel. I believe their micros are rated to -40C/F. If they quit >> working at that temp it would be okay as long as they start back up when >> if warms up. Normally when it's that cold the sun is pretty scarce at >> this latitude. >> >> Greg Egan >> Remote Power Inc. >> Fairbanks, AK >> >> On 9/23/2024 7:47 PM, MDElectricSolar wrote: >> > Been around forever, good tech support, the products have been improved >> and refined, easy to install, good monitoring platform. Not sure how they >> would fare in Alaskan winters though… >> > >> > Maybe an sma installed indoors? >> > >> > Michael D Nelson >> > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >> > 707-684-0064 mobile >> > 707-884-1862 office >> > www.mdelectricsolar.com >> > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >> > >> > >> >> On Sep 23, 2024, at 8:41 PM, greg egan >> wrote: >> >> >> >> Michael, thank you. Any particular reason you like them best? >> >> >> >> >> >> Greg Egan >> >> Remote Power Inc. >> >> Fairbanks, AK >> >> >> >>> On 9/23/2024 7:29 PM, MDElectricSolar wrote: >> >>> Enphase… >> >>> >> >>> Michael D Nelson >> >>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >> >>> 707-684-0064 mobile >> >>> 707-884-1862 office >> >>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >> >>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>>> On Sep 23, 2024, at 7:30 PM, greg egan via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>>> Esteemed wrenches, >> >>>> >> >>>> Have a client that is grid connected (not my usual client) and >> looking to do solar without back up. Has shading issues so I'm thinking >> micros would work best for this application, plus take care of rapid shut >> down without needing extra devices/wiring. Problem is I have not ever >> installed micros. >> >>>> >> >>>> Any recommendations on brands /models that have been reliable? >> Decent tech support? Customer just wants something that works and is >> relatively simple to navigate the online monitoring. Probably 4-5 kW so >> not a huge system. >> >>>> >> >>>> Thanks in advance, I appreciate it! >> >>>> >> >>>> Greg Egan >> >>>> Remote Power Inc. >> >>>> Fairbanks, AK >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >>>> >> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >>>> >> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >>>> >> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>>> >> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >> try the other: >> >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>>> >> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >> >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >>>> >> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >> >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >>>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Tue Sep 24 08:55:26 2024 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2024 06:55:26 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] favortie micro inverters? In-Reply-To: References: <6187a1e1-9510-48a2-a06b-b9d44b6cab92@remotepowerinc.com> <05684554-ECD1-4CE3-A8D8-1B938EF95985@gmail.com> <547a3db8-4d3d-4880-b679-8f6b004665c9@remotepowerinc.com> Message-ID: > > Enphase DOMINATES the space. I can't see any reason to go another > direction. Reliability and service just continues to improve. > I wholeheartedly echo Jason's sentiments on this. Enphase had a bad run of things 8 or 9 years ago but that has long since been smoothed out. Their micros are robust, easy to install and easy to test, and their monitoring is some of the nicest. The company started offering built in consumption monitoring equipment before the competition and not as an upsell, but part of the package providing a homeowner with a far better understanding of their relationship with electricity. - Sam [image: OnSite Energy] SAM HARALDSON Operations Specialist (406) 551-6135 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 Locally owned and operated since 2012 [image: B Corporation] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Tue Sep 24 09:01:19 2024 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2024 13:01:19 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?b?Rk04MOKAmXMgdnMgRk0xMDDigJlz?= Message-ID: <9CB0F3E0-41A6-47F6-9187-233B11905A8E@solarwork.com> As previously mentioned, I am upgrading my home off grid system and had to put in flex max 100 and just wanted to report on the difference I’ve seen. I still have the older Array up about 6300 W on trackers and the stability of the voltage once the system is full is rock solid compared to the FM 80s which would tend to float around and the battery percentage sits right at 100. It’s really stable with the FM 80s. It would tend to slowly drift down and by sunset it could say anywhere from 97 to 95% full, just an observation thought I’d pass it along Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Sep 24 09:43:44 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2024 07:43:44 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trade show Message-ID: <9CF3A938-C3AD-42E4-AC75-4E1172481295@gmail.com> Since Dana brought up OB, does anyone have any updates as to OB? If they were not at the trade show then that is enough evidence to me they are gone. Jay > On Sep 24, 2024, at 7:02 AM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches wrote: > > As previously mentioned, I am upgrading my home off grid system and had to put in flex max 100 and just wanted to report on the difference I’ve seen. > I still have the older Array up about 6300 W on trackers and the stability of the voltage once the system is full is rock solid compared to the FM 80s which would tend to float around and the battery percentage sits right at 100. It’s really stable with the FM 80s. It would tend to slowly drift down and by sunset it could say anywhere from 97 to 95% full, just an observation thought I’d pass it along > Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From steve at surrette.com Tue Sep 24 09:48:40 2024 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2024 06:48:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trade show In-Reply-To: <9CF3A938-C3AD-42E4-AC75-4E1172481295@gmail.com> References: <9CF3A938-C3AD-42E4-AC75-4E1172481295@gmail.com> Message-ID: Outback was at RE+, and their booth presence was much more significant than the previous year. Last year, they had zero products, and the booth consisted of a table, a couple of pop-up banners, and a few chairs; this year, they actually had products in it. I spoke with a customer yesterday who said he had talked to OB tech support, and they pointed out that his charging settings needed to be corrected. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 6:44 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Since Dana brought up OB, does anyone have any updates as to OB? > > If they were not at the trade show then that is enough evidence to me they > are gone. > > Jay > > > On Sep 24, 2024, at 7:02 AM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > > As previously mentioned, I am upgrading my home off grid system and had > to put in flex max 100 and just wanted to report on the difference I’ve > seen. > > I still have the older Array up about 6300 W on trackers and the > stability of the voltage once the system is full is rock solid compared to > the FM 80s which would tend to float around and the battery percentage sits > right at 100. It’s really stable with the FM 80s. It would tend to slowly > drift down and by sunset it could say anywhere from 97 to 95% full, just an > observation thought I’d pass it along > > Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bryan at pv-cables.com Tue Sep 24 11:14:07 2024 From: bryan at pv-cables.com (Bryan Norkunas) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2024 15:14:07 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] favortie micro inverters? In-Reply-To: <0b466ba0-b9dd-41e3-a306-0c52195db4df@remotepowerinc.com> References: <0b466ba0-b9dd-41e3-a306-0c52195db4df@remotepowerinc.com> Message-ID: I've had great luck with APS and so have our local installers. Bryan Norkunas PV-Cables Inc. 989 Milton Ave Ste 1D Ferndale CA 95536 (707) 923-3000 office www.pv-cables.com [cid:993effd1-5a11-435e-8ca4-61fd29e3ef90] [cid:8fdff285-a609-4c88-81f6-bd68fffb8260] Please print only if necessary. NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by replying to this email, and destroy all copies of the original message. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of greg egan via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, September 23, 2024 7:29 PM To: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: greg egan Subject: [RE-wrenches] favortie micro inverters? Esteemed wrenches, Have a client that is grid connected (not my usual client) and looking to do solar without back up. Has shading issues so I'm thinking micros would work best for this application, plus take care of rapid shut down without needing extra devices/wiring. Problem is I have not ever installed micros. Any recommendations on brands /models that have been reliable? Decent tech support? Customer just wants something that works and is relatively simple to navigate the online monitoring. Probably 4-5 kW so not a huge system. Thanks in advance, I appreciate it! Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. Fairbanks, AK _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-u2wnspqb.png Type: image/png Size: 78625 bytes Desc: Outlook-u2wnspqb.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-kadxvmqu.png Type: image/png Size: 2978 bytes Desc: Outlook-kadxvmqu.png URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Tue Sep 24 13:16:06 2024 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2024 13:16:06 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] favortie micro inverters? In-Reply-To: References: <0b466ba0-b9dd-41e3-a306-0c52195db4df@remotepowerinc.com> Message-ID: Was an Enphase installer since the beginning, I think 08' but moved away when the tech support and early model failures were numerous. Moved to APS with the two modules per micro. Really saved on install time as it was half the number of micro's. One recommendation regardless of brand, don't put them on a roof. Christopher On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 11:14 AM Bryan Norkunas via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I've had great luck with APS and so have our local installers. > > *Bryan Norkunas* > > *PV-Cables Inc. * > > *989 Milton Ave Ste 1D * > > *Ferndale CA 95536* > > (707) 923-3000 office > > www.pv-cables.com > > > > > > Please print only if necessary. > > > > NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of the > intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged > information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is > prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the > sender by replying to this email, and destroy all copies of the original > message. > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of greg egan via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Monday, September 23, 2024 7:29 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > *Cc:* greg egan > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] favortie micro inverters? > > Esteemed wrenches, > > Have a client that is grid connected (not my usual client) and looking > to do solar without back up. Has shading issues so I'm thinking micros > would work best for this application, plus take care of rapid shut down > without needing extra devices/wiring. Problem is I have not ever > installed micros. > > Any recommendations on brands /models that have been reliable? Decent > tech support? Customer just wants something that works and is > relatively simple to navigate the online monitoring. Probably 4-5 kW so > not a huge system. > > Thanks in advance, I appreciate it! > > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc. > Fairbanks, AK > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-u2wnspqb.png Type: image/png Size: 78625 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-kadxvmqu.png Type: image/png Size: 2978 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Sep 24 14:13:39 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2024 11:13:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] favortie micro inverters? In-Reply-To: References: <0b466ba0-b9dd-41e3-a306-0c52195db4df@remotepowerinc.com> Message-ID: <9899b1ba91b4c1519139e93fcfdd34bc@sti.net> I am with Chris except I might put them on a barn roof ! Never a residence and never Offgrid ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [3]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [4] [3] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-09-24 10:16 am, Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches wrote: > Was an Enphase installer since the beginning, I think 08' but moved > away when the tech support and early model failures were numerous. > Moved to APS with the two modules per micro. Really saved on install > time as it was half the number of micro's. One recommendation > regardless of brand, don't put them on a roof. > > Christopher > > On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 11:14 AM Bryan Norkunas via RE-wrenches > wrote: > >> I've had great luck with APS and so have our local installers. >> >> Bryan Norkunas >> >> PV-Cables Inc. >> >> 989 Milton Ave Ste 1D >> >> Ferndale CA 95536 >> >> (707) 923-3000 office >> >> www.pv-cables.com [1] >> >> Please print only if necessary. >> >> NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of >> the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or >> privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or >> distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, >> please contact the sender by replying to this email, and destroy all >> copies of the original message. >> >> ------------------------- >> >> From: RE-wrenches on >> behalf of greg egan via RE-wrenches >> >> Sent: Monday, September 23, 2024 7:29 PM >> To: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Cc: greg egan >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] favortie micro inverters? >> >> Esteemed wrenches, >> >> Have a client that is grid connected (not my usual client) and looking >> to do solar without back up. Has shading issues so I'm thinking >> micros >> would work best for this application, plus take care of rapid shut >> down >> without needing extra devices/wiring. Problem is I have not ever >> installed micros. >> >> Any recommendations on brands /models that have been reliable? Decent >> tech support? Customer just wants something that works and is >> relatively simple to navigate the online monitoring. Probably 4-5 kW >> so >> not a huge system. >> >> Thanks in advance, I appreciate it! >> >> Greg Egan >> Remote Power Inc. >> Fairbanks, AK >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > > Chris Schaefer's > > Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > 5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > _www.solarandwindfx.com [2] ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com_ > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.pv-cables.com/ [2] http://www.solarandwindfx.com [3] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [4] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-u2wnspqb.png Type: image/png Size: 78625 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-kadxvmqu.png Type: image/png Size: 2978 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Sep 24 16:20:21 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2024 16:20:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] favortie micro inverters? In-Reply-To: <9899b1ba91b4c1519139e93fcfdd34bc@sti.net> References: <0b466ba0-b9dd-41e3-a306-0c52195db4df@remotepowerinc.com> <9899b1ba91b4c1519139e93fcfdd34bc@sti.net> Message-ID: I don't really understand the resistance to Enphase on a roof (anymore, at least). We have many thousands of microinverters out there, and I don't even have a dedicated service department. We swap maybe 100 a year at the most at this point, and that includes for systems we didn't install. It's super quick and easy. But most of our roofs are single story 5:12 pitch on average. I have at least a dozen small commercial sites with 100 - 500 units each, and I can't remembereven an handful of replacements on those over the years. I did get involved with a commercial site I did not install, and that was a nightmare, with over 100 early generation microinverters that failed. It was a custom rack, and the clamps were a nightmare, not to mention the array map had gotten out of whack over the years from prior micro swaps. But for the most part, I have no issue with micro swaps on roofs. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 2:14 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > I am with Chris except I might put them on a barn roof ! Never a residence > and never Offgrid ! > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2024-09-24 10:16 am, Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Was an Enphase installer since the beginning, I think 08' but moved away > when the tech support and early model failures were numerous. Moved to APS > with the two modules per micro. Really saved on install time as it was half > the number of micro's. One recommendation regardless of brand, don't put > them on a roof. > > Christopher > > On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 11:14 AM Bryan Norkunas via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > I've had great luck with APS and so have our local installers. > > > *Bryan Norkunas* > > *PV-Cables Inc. * > > *989 Milton Ave Ste 1D * > > *Ferndale CA 95536* > > (707) 923-3000 office > > www.pv-cables.com > > > > > > Please print only if necessary. > > > > NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of the > intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged > information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is > prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the > sender by replying to this email, and destroy all copies of the original > message. > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of greg egan via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Monday, September 23, 2024 7:29 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > *Cc:* greg egan > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] favortie micro inverters? > > Esteemed wrenches, > > Have a client that is grid connected (not my usual client) and looking > to do solar without back up. Has shading issues so I'm thinking micros > would work best for this application, plus take care of rapid shut down > without needing extra devices/wiring. Problem is I have not ever > installed micros. > > Any recommendations on brands /models that have been reliable? Decent > tech support? Customer just wants something that works and is > relatively simple to navigate the online monitoring. Probably 4-5 kW so > not a huge system. > > Thanks in advance, I appreciate it! > > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc. > Fairbanks, AK > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > Chris Schaefer's > > > *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-u2wnspqb.png Type: image/png Size: 78625 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-kadxvmqu.png Type: image/png Size: 2978 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Sep 24 16:41:03 2024 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2024 13:41:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] favortie micro inverters? In-Reply-To: References: <0b466ba0-b9dd-41e3-a306-0c52195db4df@remotepowerinc.com> <9899b1ba91b4c1519139e93fcfdd34bc@sti.net> Message-ID: I agree with Jason that it is going to take a really compelling microinverter product at this point to knock Enphase off the #1 micro position. It seems risky to sell any other microinverter products given the complexity of the product and the fact that if the competing product manufacturer goes out of business that there won't be any choice but to replace all of that product. That said, competition in the market is good, so my salutes to anyone willing to try other microinverter products. We have experience with SolarBridge (they were owned by SunPower for a while) and that product was by far inferior to Enphase. We've also installed a few hundred PowerOne ABB micros - those have been for the most part very reliable, but the monitoring side of the equation is very poor so dealing with RMA issues there is a bit of a challenge. Both of those products are outdated now and no longer on the market. I've posted here on this before - we're having good luck with the Tesla solar inverter. It is low cost and has lots of benefits including 4 x trackers with low start voltage, power control systems, built in monitoring, etc. We're now offering Enphase systems as well (we were a SunPower dealer for many years) so customers can have a choice if Tesla is not their cup of tea. Elon Musk is aggravating. August Luminalt On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 1:21 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I don't really understand the resistance to Enphase on a roof (anymore, at > least). We have many thousands of microinverters out there, and I don't > even have a dedicated service department. We swap maybe 100 a year at the > most at this point, and that includes for systems we didn't install. It's > super quick and easy. But most of our roofs are single story 5:12 pitch on > average. > > I have at least a dozen small commercial sites with 100 - 500 units each, > and I can't remembereven an handful of replacements on those over > the years. > > I did get involved with a commercial site I did not install, and that was > a nightmare, with over 100 early generation microinverters that failed. It > was a custom rack, and the clamps were a nightmare, not to mention the > array map had gotten out of whack over the years from prior micro swaps. > But for the most part, I have no issue with micro swaps on roofs. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 2:14 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via > RE-wrenches wrote: > >> I am with Chris except I might put them on a barn roof ! Never a >> residence and never Offgrid ! >> >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> >> On 2024-09-24 10:16 am, Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Was an Enphase installer since the beginning, I think 08' but moved away >> when the tech support and early model failures were numerous. Moved to APS >> with the two modules per micro. Really saved on install time as it was half >> the number of micro's. One recommendation regardless of brand, don't put >> them on a roof. >> >> Christopher >> >> On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 11:14 AM Bryan Norkunas via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> I've had great luck with APS and so have our local installers. >> >> >> *Bryan Norkunas* >> >> *PV-Cables Inc. * >> >> *989 Milton Ave Ste 1D * >> >> *Ferndale CA 95536* >> >> (707) 923-3000 office >> >> www.pv-cables.com >> >> >> >> >> >> Please print only if necessary. >> >> >> >> NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of the >> intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged >> information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is >> prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the >> sender by replying to this email, and destroy all copies of the original >> message. >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* RE-wrenches on >> behalf of greg egan via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Monday, September 23, 2024 7:29 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org < >> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >> *Cc:* greg egan >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] favortie micro inverters? >> >> Esteemed wrenches, >> >> Have a client that is grid connected (not my usual client) and looking >> to do solar without back up. Has shading issues so I'm thinking micros >> would work best for this application, plus take care of rapid shut down >> without needing extra devices/wiring. Problem is I have not ever >> installed micros. >> >> Any recommendations on brands /models that have been reliable? Decent >> tech support? Customer just wants something that works and is >> relatively simple to navigate the online monitoring. Probably 4-5 kW so >> not a huge system. >> >> Thanks in advance, I appreciate it! >> >> Greg Egan >> Remote Power Inc. >> Fairbanks, AK >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Chris Schaefer's >> >> >> *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >> *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com >> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >> * >> >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-u2wnspqb.png Type: image/png Size: 78625 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-kadxvmqu.png Type: image/png Size: 2978 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Sep 24 16:55:08 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2024 16:55:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] favortie micro inverters? In-Reply-To: References: <0b466ba0-b9dd-41e3-a306-0c52195db4df@remotepowerinc.com> <9899b1ba91b4c1519139e93fcfdd34bc@sti.net> Message-ID: It's very curious how there are geographic preferences, and that is definitely something to consider. I tell clients that there won't be anyone to service their system 10 years down the line if they go with anyone but Enphase around here. If a prospective client has 10 quotes locally, 9 of them will be Enphase, and one will be Tesla. If they get an 11th quote they might get a Franklin WH or another brand if they are doing battery backup. Even SolarEdge is dead here, as far as I can tell. I haven't seen a competitive quote with SolarEdge in ages. I can share this poignant advice with clients because I'm one of the only people in Southwest Florida who will even touch something from Outback, Scheneider/Xantrex/Trace, Sonnen, Magnum, SMA, or even old grid-tied Fronius IGs. If someone wants to come and swap out HD Wave inverters as a living here, I will gladly step aside. Swimming against the current gets very tiring for consumers. Sometimes, you just have to follow the crowd. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 4:41 PM August Goers wrote: > I agree with Jason that it is going to take a really compelling > microinverter product at this point to knock Enphase off the #1 micro > position. It seems risky to sell any other microinverter products given the > complexity of the product and the fact that if the competing product > manufacturer goes out of business that there won't be any choice but to > replace all of that product. That said, competition in the market is good, > so my salutes to anyone willing to try other microinverter products. We > have experience with SolarBridge (they were owned by SunPower for a while) > and that product was by far inferior to Enphase. We've also installed a few > hundred PowerOne ABB micros - those have been for the most part very > reliable, but the monitoring side of the equation is very poor so dealing > with RMA issues there is a bit of a challenge. Both of those products are > outdated now and no longer on the market. > > I've posted here on this before - we're having good luck with the Tesla > solar inverter. It is low cost and has lots of benefits including 4 x > trackers with low start voltage, power control systems, built in > monitoring, etc. We're now offering Enphase systems as well (we were a > SunPower dealer for many years) so customers can have a choice if Tesla is > not their cup of tea. Elon Musk is aggravating. > > August > Luminalt > > > > On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 1:21 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I don't really understand the resistance to Enphase on a roof (anymore, >> at least). We have many thousands of microinverters out there, and I don't >> even have a dedicated service department. We swap maybe 100 a year at the >> most at this point, and that includes for systems we didn't install. It's >> super quick and easy. But most of our roofs are single story 5:12 pitch on >> average. >> >> I have at least a dozen small commercial sites with 100 - 500 units each, >> and I can't remembereven an handful of replacements on those over >> the years. >> >> I did get involved with a commercial site I did not install, and that was >> a nightmare, with over 100 early generation microinverters that failed. It >> was a custom rack, and the clamps were a nightmare, not to mention the >> array map had gotten out of whack over the years from prior micro swaps. >> But for the most part, I have no issue with micro swaps on roofs. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 2:14 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >> RE-wrenches wrote: >> >>> I am with Chris except I might put them on a barn roof ! Never a >>> residence and never Offgrid ! >>> >>> >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060* >>> >>> >>> On 2024-09-24 10:16 am, Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Was an Enphase installer since the beginning, I think 08' but moved away >>> when the tech support and early model failures were numerous. Moved to APS >>> with the two modules per micro. Really saved on install time as it was half >>> the number of micro's. One recommendation regardless of brand, don't put >>> them on a roof. >>> >>> Christopher >>> >>> On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 11:14 AM Bryan Norkunas via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> I've had great luck with APS and so have our local installers. >>> >>> >>> *Bryan Norkunas* >>> >>> *PV-Cables Inc. * >>> >>> *989 Milton Ave Ste 1D * >>> >>> *Ferndale CA 95536* >>> >>> (707) 923-3000 office >>> >>> www.pv-cables.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Please print only if necessary. >>> >>> >>> >>> NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of the >>> intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged >>> information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is >>> prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the >>> sender by replying to this email, and destroy all copies of the original >>> message. >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* RE-wrenches on >>> behalf of greg egan via RE-wrenches >>> *Sent:* Monday, September 23, 2024 7:29 PM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org < >>> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >>> *Cc:* greg egan >>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] favortie micro inverters? >>> >>> Esteemed wrenches, >>> >>> Have a client that is grid connected (not my usual client) and looking >>> to do solar without back up. Has shading issues so I'm thinking micros >>> would work best for this application, plus take care of rapid shut down >>> without needing extra devices/wiring. Problem is I have not ever >>> installed micros. >>> >>> Any recommendations on brands /models that have been reliable? Decent >>> tech support? Customer just wants something that works and is >>> relatively simple to navigate the online monitoring. Probably 4-5 kW so >>> not a huge system. >>> >>> Thanks in advance, I appreciate it! >>> >>> Greg Egan >>> Remote Power Inc. >>> Fairbanks, AK >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Chris Schaefer's >>> >>> >>> *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >>> *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com >>> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >>> * >>> >>> >>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >>> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >>> willing to work and give to those who would not." >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-u2wnspqb.png Type: image/png Size: 78625 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-kadxvmqu.png Type: image/png Size: 2978 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From greg at remotepowerinc.com Tue Sep 24 18:48:52 2024 From: greg at remotepowerinc.com (greg egan) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2024 14:48:52 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] favortie micro inverters? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] favortie micro inverters? All, thanks for the info on micros. These will be going on a ground mount so should be easy if there are failures in the future. As far as who will be in business next year, Yogi Berra said " the hardest thing to predict is the future" For that reason I'll buy a few extra just in case. Best, Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. Fairbanks AK From vince at solarenergydesign.com Tue Sep 24 22:38:18 2024 From: vince at solarenergydesign.com (Vince McClellan) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2024 19:38:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] favortie micro inverters? In-Reply-To: References: <0b466ba0-b9dd-41e3-a306-0c52195db4df@remotepowerinc.com> <9899b1ba91b4c1519139e93fcfdd34bc@sti.net> Message-ID: Hello Wrenches List I've recently become aware of an issue with micro-inverters that I would like to share. Be sure the solar module you're using is compatible with the microinverter for the solar module's full life. A good best practice is to design for the MPPT voltage range of the inverter. I only consider the operating range of the inverter when it won't affect the inverter during its operational time, such as when the solar module is at its coldest in the first few moments of sunlight when it hits max Voc. That will only happen for a few moments as the sun heats the solar module. High heat is different. If the solar module falls below the MPPT voltage window that will happen in the middle of the day when the solar array should be producing its maximum power for the day. If the voltage of the solar module falls below the MPPT voltage window during that time it becomes much less efficient at tracking the power or simply turns off. Some studies have shown a solar module degradation rate averaging up to 1.4%/year. Here is an example of what I'm talking about with weather data for Eugene OR and a roof-mounted Phono PS400M6H-18/VHB solar module. Vmp 30.85 Coe/*°*C = -0.28% High-Temperature voltage calculation: 30.85 Vmp X [ 1-(32+30-25) X .0028] = 27.65 Vmp adjusted for 2% average high temp of 32°C Here is my Enphase cheat sheet for quickly looking at design compatibility. Enphase M# Operating Range MPPT Voltage Range Commonly used module pairings Phase IQ8MC-72-M-US 18-58 V 25-45 V 260-460 Wstc 1 IQ8-60-M-US 16-48 V 27-37 V 235-350 Wstc 1 IQ8PLUS-72-M-US 16-58 V 27-45 V 235-440 Wstc 1 IQ8H-3P-72-E-US 16-63 V 28.5-45 V 320-540 Wstc 3 IQ8M-72-US 16-58 V 30-45 V 260-460 Wstc 1 IQ8A-M-US 16-58 V 32-45 V 295-500 Wstc 1 IQ8A-72-M-US 16-58 V 32-45 V 295-500 Wstc 1 IQ8P-3P-72-E-US 16-63 V 35.5-53 V 380-640 Wstc 3 IQ8H-208-72-M-US 16-58 V 36-45 V 295-500 Wstc 1 IQ8X-80-M-US 25-79.5 V 43-60 V 320-540 Wstc 1 So I'm good with three of the inverters on my list right? Not really. As the solar cells age the degradation of the cell drops the cells voltage. A good design practice is to drop the adjusted Vmp down 10% to make up for cell degradation. So, 27.65 Adjusted Vmp - 10% would be 24.88Vmp. I would still feel comfortable using one of the inverters on my list. If I go to the Enphase compatibility calculator it shows seven inverters that are compatible with the Phono PS400M6H-18/VHB solar module for my climate. Other than that issue, we try to use micro inverters only when they are reasonably easy to get to because we know we will be back at some point to replace inverters. Electronic components fail mostly based on temperature fluctuations over time. The area behind a solar array is both the hottest and coldest location at the installation site. I do like micro inverters for many applications where there are multiple roof angles and or moving shade to deal with on a client's roof. I would love to hear back from others if you think my calculations are way off. This kind of back and forth is how we grow as installers and I won't take offense if any of you slam my ideas. Thanks to all of you for contributing to our industry, Vince McClellan President NABCEP PV Professional p: 541-485-8122 a: 860 Conger St. Suite 12,. Eugene, OR 97402 e: vince at solarenergydesgin.com w: SolarEnergyDesign.com CCB# 161672 If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient, please delete this email. Copying or using any part, content, or attachment of this email is strictly prohibited. On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 1:55 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > It's very curious how there are geographic preferences, and that is > definitely something to consider. I tell clients that there won't be anyone > to service their system 10 years down the line if they go with anyone but > Enphase around here. If a prospective client has 10 quotes locally, 9 of > them will be Enphase, and one will be Tesla. If they get an 11th quote they > might get a Franklin WH or another brand if they are doing battery backup. > Even SolarEdge is dead here, as far as I can tell. I haven't seen a > competitive quote with SolarEdge in ages. > > I can share this poignant advice with clients because I'm one of the only > people in Southwest Florida who will even touch something from Outback, > Scheneider/Xantrex/Trace, Sonnen, Magnum, SMA, or even old grid-tied > Fronius IGs. If someone wants to come and swap out HD Wave inverters as a > living here, I will gladly step aside. Swimming against the current gets > very tiring for consumers. Sometimes, you just have to follow the crowd. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 4:41 PM August Goers wrote: > >> I agree with Jason that it is going to take a really compelling >> microinverter product at this point to knock Enphase off the #1 micro >> position. It seems risky to sell any other microinverter products given the >> complexity of the product and the fact that if the competing product >> manufacturer goes out of business that there won't be any choice but to >> replace all of that product. That said, competition in the market is good, >> so my salutes to anyone willing to try other microinverter products. We >> have experience with SolarBridge (they were owned by SunPower for a while) >> and that product was by far inferior to Enphase. We've also installed a few >> hundred PowerOne ABB micros - those have been for the most part very >> reliable, but the monitoring side of the equation is very poor so dealing >> with RMA issues there is a bit of a challenge. Both of those products are >> outdated now and no longer on the market. >> >> I've posted here on this before - we're having good luck with the Tesla >> solar inverter. It is low cost and has lots of benefits including 4 x >> trackers with low start voltage, power control systems, built in >> monitoring, etc. We're now offering Enphase systems as well (we were a >> SunPower dealer for many years) so customers can have a choice if Tesla is >> not their cup of tea. Elon Musk is aggravating. >> >> August >> Luminalt >> >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 1:21 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I don't really understand the resistance to Enphase on a roof (anymore, >>> at least). We have many thousands of microinverters out there, and I don't >>> even have a dedicated service department. We swap maybe 100 a year at the >>> most at this point, and that includes for systems we didn't install. It's >>> super quick and easy. But most of our roofs are single story 5:12 pitch on >>> average. >>> >>> I have at least a dozen small commercial sites with 100 - 500 units >>> each, and I can't remembereven an handful of replacements on those over >>> the years. >>> >>> I did get involved with a commercial site I did not install, and that >>> was a nightmare, with over 100 early generation microinverters that failed. >>> It was a custom rack, and the clamps were a nightmare, not to mention the >>> array map had gotten out of whack over the years from prior micro swaps. >>> But for the most part, I have no issue with micro swaps on roofs. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 2:14 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>>> I am with Chris except I might put them on a barn roof ! Never a >>>> residence and never Offgrid ! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>> text 209 813 0060* >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2024-09-24 10:16 am, Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> >>>> Was an Enphase installer since the beginning, I think 08' but moved >>>> away when the tech support and early model failures were numerous. Moved to >>>> APS with the two modules per micro. Really saved on install time as it was >>>> half the number of micro's. One recommendation regardless of brand, don't >>>> put them on a roof. >>>> >>>> Christopher >>>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 11:14 AM Bryan Norkunas via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> I've had great luck with APS and so have our local installers. >>>> >>>> >>>> *Bryan Norkunas* >>>> >>>> *PV-Cables Inc. * >>>> >>>> *989 Milton Ave Ste 1D * >>>> >>>> *Ferndale CA 95536* >>>> >>>> (707) 923-3000 office >>>> >>>> www.pv-cables.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Please print only if necessary. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of >>>> the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged >>>> information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is >>>> prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the >>>> sender by replying to this email, and destroy all copies of the original >>>> message. >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* RE-wrenches on >>>> behalf of greg egan via RE-wrenches >>>> *Sent:* Monday, September 23, 2024 7:29 PM >>>> *To:* RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org < >>>> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >>>> *Cc:* greg egan >>>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] favortie micro inverters? >>>> >>>> Esteemed wrenches, >>>> >>>> Have a client that is grid connected (not my usual client) and looking >>>> to do solar without back up. Has shading issues so I'm thinking micros >>>> would work best for this application, plus take care of rapid shut down >>>> without needing extra devices/wiring. Problem is I have not ever >>>> installed micros. >>>> >>>> Any recommendations on brands /models that have been reliable? Decent >>>> tech support? Customer just wants something that works and is >>>> relatively simple to navigate the online monitoring. Probably 4-5 kW >>>> so >>>> not a huge system. >>>> >>>> Thanks in advance, I appreciate it! >>>> >>>> Greg Egan >>>> Remote Power Inc. >>>> Fairbanks, AK >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Chris Schaefer's >>>> >>>> >>>> *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >>>> *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com >>>> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >>>> * >>>> >>>> >>>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >>>> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >>>> willing to work and give to those who would not." >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-u2wnspqb.png Type: image/png Size: 78625 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-kadxvmqu.png Type: image/png Size: 2978 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From g.rochlin at gmail.com Tue Sep 24 22:49:46 2024 From: g.rochlin at gmail.com (Gary Rochlin) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2024 20:49:46 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] favortie micro inverters? In-Reply-To: <6187a1e1-9510-48a2-a06b-b9d44b6cab92@remotepowerinc.com> References: <6187a1e1-9510-48a2-a06b-b9d44b6cab92@remotepowerinc.com> Message-ID: Enphase Sent on the run. Please excuse brevity and typos. > On Sep 23, 2024, at 9:43 PM, greg egan via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Michael, thank you. Any particular reason you like them best? > > > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc. > Fairbanks, AK > >> On 9/23/2024 7:29 PM, MDElectricSolar wrote: >> Enphase… >> >> Michael D Nelson >> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >> 707-684-0064 mobile >> 707-884-1862 office >> www.mdelectricsolar.com >> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >> >> >>>> On Sep 23, 2024, at 7:30 PM, greg egan via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Esteemed wrenches, >>> >>> Have a client that is grid connected (not my usual client) and looking to do solar without back up. Has shading issues so I'm thinking micros would work best for this application, plus take care of rapid shut down without needing extra devices/wiring. Problem is I have not ever installed micros. >>> >>> Any recommendations on brands /models that have been reliable? Decent tech support? Customer just wants something that works and is relatively simple to navigate the online monitoring. Probably 4-5 kW so not a huge system. >>> >>> Thanks in advance, I appreciate it! >>> >>> Greg Egan >>> Remote Power Inc. >>> Fairbanks, AK >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Sep 25 06:29:30 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2024 06:29:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] favortie micro inverters? In-Reply-To: References: <0b466ba0-b9dd-41e3-a306-0c52195db4df@remotepowerinc.com> <9899b1ba91b4c1519139e93fcfdd34bc@sti.net> Message-ID: Definitely a good idea to consider the voltage ranges. Sometimes "oversizing" a microinverter can be slightly detrimental. That said, in most cases you will hit the Voc startup voltage very early and since the MPPT operating range is wider than the startup range, it's unlikely that the microinverter will shut down unless it's very dark. 16V on the lower end of most options takes you very close to sunset. but it probably doesn't matter much because the irradiance will be so low that energy harvest will be next to nil at that time. In my climate we are using DC to AC ratios of up to 1.35x, so I don't worry to much about degradation, but I imagine in cooler climates where ratios may be lower, this could become a concern, especially at suboptimal orientations. Jason On Tue, Sep 24, 2024, 10:38 PM Vince McClellan wrote: > Hello Wrenches List > I've recently become aware of an issue with micro-inverters that I would > like to share. > Be sure the solar module you're using is compatible with the microinverter > for the solar module's full life. > A good best practice is to design for the MPPT voltage range of the > inverter. I only consider the operating range of the inverter when it won't > affect the inverter during its operational time, such as when the solar > module is at its coldest in the first few moments of sunlight when it hits > max Voc. That will only happen for a few moments as the sun heats the solar > module. High heat is different. If the solar module falls below the MPPT > voltage window that will happen in the middle of the day when the solar > array should be producing its maximum power for the day. If the voltage of > the solar module falls below the MPPT voltage window during that time it > becomes much less efficient at tracking the power or simply turns off. Some > studies have shown a solar module degradation rate averaging up to > 1.4%/year. > > Here is an example of what I'm talking about with weather data for Eugene > OR and a roof-mounted Phono PS400M6H-18/VHB solar module. > Vmp 30.85 > Coe/*°*C = -0.28% > High-Temperature voltage calculation: 30.85 Vmp X [ 1-(32+30-25) X .0028] > = 27.65 Vmp adjusted for 2% average high temp of 32°C > Here is my Enphase cheat sheet for quickly looking at design > compatibility. > Enphase M# Operating Range MPPT Voltage Range Commonly used module > pairings Phase > IQ8MC-72-M-US 18-58 V 25-45 V 260-460 Wstc 1 > IQ8-60-M-US 16-48 V 27-37 V 235-350 Wstc 1 > IQ8PLUS-72-M-US 16-58 V 27-45 V 235-440 Wstc 1 > IQ8H-3P-72-E-US 16-63 V 28.5-45 V 320-540 Wstc 3 > IQ8M-72-US 16-58 V 30-45 V 260-460 Wstc 1 > IQ8A-M-US 16-58 V 32-45 V 295-500 Wstc 1 > IQ8A-72-M-US 16-58 V 32-45 V 295-500 Wstc 1 > IQ8P-3P-72-E-US 16-63 V 35.5-53 V 380-640 Wstc 3 > IQ8H-208-72-M-US 16-58 V 36-45 V 295-500 Wstc 1 > IQ8X-80-M-US 25-79.5 V 43-60 V 320-540 Wstc 1 > So I'm good with three of the inverters on my list right? Not really. As > the solar cells age the degradation of the cell drops the cells voltage. A > good design practice is to drop the adjusted Vmp down 10% to make up for > cell degradation. So, 27.65 Adjusted Vmp - 10% would be 24.88Vmp. I would > still feel comfortable using one of the inverters on my list. > If I go to the Enphase compatibility calculator > it shows seven > inverters that are compatible with the Phono PS400M6H-18/VHB solar module > for my climate. > > Other than that issue, we try to use micro inverters only when they are > reasonably easy to get to because we know we will be back at some point to > replace inverters. > Electronic components fail mostly based on temperature fluctuations over > time. The area behind a solar array is both the hottest and coldest > location at the installation site. I do like micro inverters for many > applications where there are multiple roof angles and or moving shade to > deal with on a client's roof. > > I would love to hear back from others if you think my calculations are way > off. This kind of back and forth is how we grow as installers and I won't > take offense if any of you slam my ideas. > > Thanks to all of you for contributing to our industry, > > Vince McClellan > > President > > NABCEP PV Professional > > p: 541-485-8122 > > a: 860 Conger St. Suite 12,. Eugene, OR 97402 > > > e: vince at solarenergydesgin.com > > w: SolarEnergyDesign.com > > CCB# 161672 > > > > If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient, please > delete this email. Copying or using any part, content, or attachment of > this email is strictly prohibited. > > > > On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 1:55 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> It's very curious how there are geographic preferences, and that is >> definitely something to consider. I tell clients that there won't be anyone >> to service their system 10 years down the line if they go with anyone but >> Enphase around here. If a prospective client has 10 quotes locally, 9 of >> them will be Enphase, and one will be Tesla. If they get an 11th quote they >> might get a Franklin WH or another brand if they are doing battery backup. >> Even SolarEdge is dead here, as far as I can tell. I haven't seen a >> competitive quote with SolarEdge in ages. >> >> I can share this poignant advice with clients because I'm one of the only >> people in Southwest Florida who will even touch something from Outback, >> Scheneider/Xantrex/Trace, Sonnen, Magnum, SMA, or even old grid-tied >> Fronius IGs. If someone wants to come and swap out HD Wave inverters as a >> living here, I will gladly step aside. Swimming against the current gets >> very tiring for consumers. Sometimes, you just have to follow the crowd. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 4:41 PM August Goers wrote: >> >>> I agree with Jason that it is going to take a really compelling >>> microinverter product at this point to knock Enphase off the #1 micro >>> position. It seems risky to sell any other microinverter products given the >>> complexity of the product and the fact that if the competing product >>> manufacturer goes out of business that there won't be any choice but to >>> replace all of that product. That said, competition in the market is good, >>> so my salutes to anyone willing to try other microinverter products. We >>> have experience with SolarBridge (they were owned by SunPower for a while) >>> and that product was by far inferior to Enphase. We've also installed a few >>> hundred PowerOne ABB micros - those have been for the most part very >>> reliable, but the monitoring side of the equation is very poor so dealing >>> with RMA issues there is a bit of a challenge. Both of those products are >>> outdated now and no longer on the market. >>> >>> I've posted here on this before - we're having good luck with the Tesla >>> solar inverter. It is low cost and has lots of benefits including 4 x >>> trackers with low start voltage, power control systems, built in >>> monitoring, etc. We're now offering Enphase systems as well (we were a >>> SunPower dealer for many years) so customers can have a choice if Tesla is >>> not their cup of tea. Elon Musk is aggravating. >>> >>> August >>> Luminalt >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 1:21 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I don't really understand the resistance to Enphase on a roof (anymore, >>>> at least). We have many thousands of microinverters out there, and I don't >>>> even have a dedicated service department. We swap maybe 100 a year at the >>>> most at this point, and that includes for systems we didn't install. It's >>>> super quick and easy. But most of our roofs are single story 5:12 pitch on >>>> average. >>>> >>>> I have at least a dozen small commercial sites with 100 - 500 units >>>> each, and I can't remembereven an handful of replacements on those over >>>> the years. >>>> >>>> I did get involved with a commercial site I did not install, and that >>>> was a nightmare, with over 100 early generation microinverters that failed. >>>> It was a custom rack, and the clamps were a nightmare, not to mention the >>>> array map had gotten out of whack over the years from prior micro swaps. >>>> But for the most part, I have no issue with micro swaps on roofs. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 2:14 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >>>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> >>>>> I am with Chris except I might put them on a barn roof ! Never a >>>>> residence and never Offgrid ! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>>> text 209 813 0060* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 2024-09-24 10:16 am, Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Was an Enphase installer since the beginning, I think 08' but moved >>>>> away when the tech support and early model failures were numerous. Moved to >>>>> APS with the two modules per micro. Really saved on install time as it was >>>>> half the number of micro's. One recommendation regardless of brand, don't >>>>> put them on a roof. >>>>> >>>>> Christopher >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 11:14 AM Bryan Norkunas via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I've had great luck with APS and so have our local installers. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Bryan Norkunas* >>>>> >>>>> *PV-Cables Inc. * >>>>> >>>>> *989 Milton Ave Ste 1D >>>>> * >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Ferndale CA 95536 >>>>> * >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> (707) 923-3000 office >>>>> >>>>> www.pv-cables.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Please print only if necessary. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of >>>>> the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged >>>>> information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is >>>>> prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the >>>>> sender by replying to this email, and destroy all copies of the original >>>>> message. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> *From:* RE-wrenches on >>>>> behalf of greg egan via RE-wrenches >>>> > >>>>> *Sent:* Monday, September 23, 2024 7:29 PM >>>>> *To:* RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org < >>>>> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >>>>> *Cc:* greg egan >>>>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] favortie micro inverters? >>>>> >>>>> Esteemed wrenches, >>>>> >>>>> Have a client that is grid connected (not my usual client) and looking >>>>> to do solar without back up. Has shading issues so I'm thinking >>>>> micros >>>>> would work best for this application, plus take care of rapid shut >>>>> down >>>>> without needing extra devices/wiring. Problem is I have not ever >>>>> installed micros. >>>>> >>>>> Any recommendations on brands /models that have been reliable? Decent >>>>> tech support? Customer just wants something that works and is >>>>> relatively simple to navigate the online monitoring. Probably 4-5 kW >>>>> so >>>>> not a huge system. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks in advance, I appreciate it! >>>>> >>>>> Greg Egan >>>>> Remote Power Inc. >>>>> Fairbanks, AK >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Chris Schaefer's >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >>>>> *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >>>>> **www.solarandwindfx.com >>>>> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >>>>> * >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >>>>> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >>>>> willing to work and give to those who would not." >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-u2wnspqb.png Type: image/png Size: 78625 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-kadxvmqu.png Type: image/png Size: 2978 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Sep 25 09:29:54 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2024 07:29:54 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] favortie micro inverters? In-Reply-To: References: <0b466ba0-b9dd-41e3-a306-0c52195db4df@remotepowerinc.com> <9899b1ba91b4c1519139e93fcfdd34bc@sti.net> Message-ID: <24404172-B56E-44D4-AC3D-9DBF20FA210E@gmail.com> Hi Vince, Your math looks correct of course, but I think you left out a variable in that the panel won’t be operating at max power because the inverters are all less than 400 watts rated. Which means that the MPPT voltage will be pushed up to reduce power giving you added room. From my understanding of how the Mppt works, but I don’t know specifically about enphase, if its a good algorithm the inverter won’t go below its lowest MPPT voltage. The inverter will reduce power playing around with the IV curve to maintain the MPPT within its range. So it won’t ever get out of operating unless it can’t even produce enough volts to make that voltage. I’ve never seen a curve of Enphase MPPT efficiency vs input voltage. Would like to though. Jay > On Sep 24, 2024, at 8:38 PM, Vince McClellan via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hello Wrenches List > I've recently become aware of an issue with micro-inverters that I would like to share. > Be sure the solar module you're using is compatible with the microinverter for the solar module's full life. > A good best practice is to design for the MPPT voltage range of the inverter. I only consider the operating range of the inverter when it won't affect the inverter during its operational time, such as when the solar module is at its coldest in the first few moments of sunlight when it hits max Voc. That will only happen for a few moments as the sun heats the solar module. High heat is different. If the solar module falls below the MPPT voltage window that will happen in the middle of the day when the solar array should be producing its maximum power for the day. If the voltage of the solar module falls below the MPPT voltage window during that time it becomes much less efficient at tracking the power or simply turns off. Some studies have shown a solar module degradation rate averaging up to 1.4%/year. > > Here is an example of what I'm talking about with weather data for Eugene OR and a roof-mounted Phono PS400M6H-18/VHB solar module. > Vmp 30.85 > Coe/°C = -0.28% > High-Temperature voltage calculation: 30.85 Vmp X [ 1-(32+30-25) X .0028] = 27.65 Vmp adjusted for 2% average high temp of 32°C > Here is my Enphase cheat sheet for quickly looking at design compatibility. > Enphase M# Operating Range MPPT Voltage Range Commonly used module pairings Phase > IQ8MC-72-M-US 18-58 V 25-45 V 260-460 Wstc 1 > IQ8-60-M-US 16-48 V 27-37 V 235-350 Wstc 1 > IQ8PLUS-72-M-US 16-58 V 27-45 V 235-440 Wstc 1 > IQ8H-3P-72-E-US 16-63 V 28.5-45 V 320-540 Wstc 3 > IQ8M-72-US 16-58 V 30-45 V 260-460 Wstc 1 > IQ8A-M-US 16-58 V 32-45 V 295-500 Wstc 1 > IQ8A-72-M-US 16-58 V 32-45 V 295-500 Wstc 1 > IQ8P-3P-72-E-US 16-63 V 35.5-53 V 380-640 Wstc 3 > IQ8H-208-72-M-US 16-58 V 36-45 V 295-500 Wstc 1 > IQ8X-80-M-US 25-79.5 V 43-60 V 320-540 Wstc 1 > So I'm good with three of the inverters on my list right? Not really. As the solar cells age the degradation of the cell drops the cells voltage. A good design practice is to drop the adjusted Vmp down 10% to make up for cell degradation. So, 27.65 Adjusted Vmp - 10% would be 24.88Vmp. I would still feel comfortable using one of the inverters on my list. > If I go to the Enphase compatibility calculator it shows seven inverters that are compatible with the Phono PS400M6H-18/VHB solar module for my climate. > > Other than that issue, we try to use micro inverters only when they are reasonably easy to get to because we know we will be back at some point to replace inverters. > Electronic components fail mostly based on temperature fluctuations over time. The area behind a solar array is both the hottest and coldest location at the installation site. I do like micro inverters for many applications where there are multiple roof angles and or moving shade to deal with on a client's roof. > > I would love to hear back from others if you think my calculations are way off. This kind of back and forth is how we grow as installers and I won't take offense if any of you slam my ideas. > > Thanks to all of you for contributing to our industry, > > Vince McClellan > President > NABCEP PV Professional > p: 541-485-8122 > a: 860 Conger St. Suite 12,. Eugene, OR 97402 > e: vince at solarenergydesgin.com > w: SolarEnergyDesign.com > CCB# 161672 > > > If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient, please delete this email. Copying or using any part, content, or attachment of this email is strictly prohibited. > > > > On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 1:55 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: > It's very curious how there are geographic preferences, and that is definitely something to consider. I tell clients that there won't be anyone to service their system 10 years down the line if they go with anyone but Enphase around here. If a prospective client has 10 quotes locally, 9 of them will be Enphase, and one will be Tesla. If they get an 11th quote they might get a Franklin WH or another brand if they are doing battery backup. Even SolarEdge is dead here, as far as I can tell. I haven't seen a competitive quote with SolarEdge in ages. > > I can share this poignant advice with clients because I'm one of the only people in Southwest Florida who will even touch something from Outback, Scheneider/Xantrex/Trace, Sonnen, Magnum, SMA, or even old grid-tied Fronius IGs. If someone wants to come and swap out HD Wave inverters as a living here, I will gladly step aside. Swimming against the current gets very tiring for consumers. Sometimes, you just have to follow the crowd. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 4:41 PM August Goers > wrote: > I agree with Jason that it is going to take a really compelling microinverter product at this point to knock Enphase off the #1 micro position. It seems risky to sell any other microinverter products given the complexity of the product and the fact that if the competing product manufacturer goes out of business that there won't be any choice but to replace all of that product. That said, competition in the market is good, so my salutes to anyone willing to try other microinverter products. We have experience with SolarBridge (they were owned by SunPower for a while) and that product was by far inferior to Enphase. We've also installed a few hundred PowerOne ABB micros - those have been for the most part very reliable, but the monitoring side of the equation is very poor so dealing with RMA issues there is a bit of a challenge. Both of those products are outdated now and no longer on the market. > > I've posted here on this before - we're having good luck with the Tesla solar inverter. It is low cost and has lots of benefits including 4 x trackers with low start voltage, power control systems, built in monitoring, etc. We're now offering Enphase systems as well (we were a SunPower dealer for many years) so customers can have a choice if Tesla is not their cup of tea. Elon Musk is aggravating. > > August > Luminalt > > > > On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 1:21 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: > I don't really understand the resistance to Enphase on a roof (anymore, at least). We have many thousands of microinverters out there, and I don't even have a dedicated service department. We swap maybe 100 a year at the most at this point, and that includes for systems we didn't install. It's super quick and easy. But most of our roofs are single story 5:12 pitch on average. > > I have at least a dozen small commercial sites with 100 - 500 units each, and I can't remembereven an handful of replacements on those over the years. > > I did get involved with a commercial site I did not install, and that was a nightmare, with over 100 early generation microinverters that failed. It was a custom rack, and the clamps were a nightmare, not to mention the array map had gotten out of whack over the years from prior micro swaps. But for the most part, I have no issue with micro swaps on roofs. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 2:14 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches > wrote: > I am with Chris except I might put them on a barn roof ! Never a residence and never Offgrid ! > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > > On 2024-09-24 10:16 am, Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> Was an Enphase installer since the beginning, I think 08' but moved away when the tech support and early model failures were numerous. Moved to APS with the two modules per micro. Really saved on install time as it was half the number of micro's. One recommendation regardless of brand, don't put them on a roof. >> >> Christopher >> >> On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 11:14 AM Bryan Norkunas via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> I've had great luck with APS and so have our local installers. >> >> Bryan Norkunas >> PV-Cables Inc. >> 989 Milton Ave Ste 1D >> Ferndale CA 95536 >> (707) 923-3000 office >> www.pv-cables.com >> >> >> Please print only if necessary. >> >> NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by replying to this email, and destroy all copies of the original message. >> >> From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of greg egan via RE-wrenches > >> Sent: Monday, September 23, 2024 7:29 PM >> To: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> Cc: greg egan > >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] favortie micro inverters? >> >> Esteemed wrenches, >> >> Have a client that is grid connected (not my usual client) and looking >> to do solar without back up. Has shading issues so I'm thinking micros >> would work best for this application, plus take care of rapid shut down >> without needing extra devices/wiring. Problem is I have not ever >> installed micros. >> >> Any recommendations on brands /models that have been reliable? Decent >> tech support? Customer just wants something that works and is >> relatively simple to navigate the online monitoring. Probably 4-5 kW so >> not a huge system. >> >> Thanks in advance, I appreciate it! >> >> Greg Egan >> Remote Power Inc. >> Fairbanks, AK >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> -- >> Chris Schaefer's >> >> Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >> 5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >> www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >> >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Sep 25 10:28:46 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2024 08:28:46 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] favortie micro inverters? In-Reply-To: <24404172-B56E-44D4-AC3D-9DBF20FA210E@gmail.com> References: <0b466ba0-b9dd-41e3-a306-0c52195db4df@remotepowerinc.com> <9899b1ba91b4c1519139e93fcfdd34bc@sti.net> <24404172-B56E-44D4-AC3D-9DBF20FA210E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0BA27CA1-4C97-4B22-BC09-46C6FBA58D9F@gmail.com> The enphase MPPT voltage range seems low to me. I reviewed a few of the newer string inverters and they are between 90-200v and 500+ A range of about 2.5 -5.5. Enphase is around 1.8X AP systems is about exactly the same as Enphase. Hoymiles a newer company that now has full range of products is 16-60v MPPT range on its micro, 3.75X Always lots to consider even with a micro. Jay > On Sep 25, 2024, at 7:29 AM, jay wrote: > > Hi Vince, > > Your math looks correct of course, but I think you left out a variable in that the panel won’t be operating at max power because the inverters are all less than 400 watts rated. > Which means that the MPPT voltage will be pushed up to reduce power giving you added room. > > From my understanding of how the Mppt works, but I don’t know specifically about enphase, if its a good algorithm the inverter won’t go below its lowest MPPT voltage. > The inverter will reduce power playing around with the IV curve to maintain the MPPT within its range. So it won’t ever get out of operating unless it can’t even produce enough volts to make that voltage. I’ve never seen a curve of Enphase MPPT efficiency vs input voltage. Would like to though. > > > > Jay > > > > > >> On Sep 24, 2024, at 8:38 PM, Vince McClellan via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> >> Hello Wrenches List >> I've recently become aware of an issue with micro-inverters that I would like to share. >> Be sure the solar module you're using is compatible with the microinverter for the solar module's full life. >> A good best practice is to design for the MPPT voltage range of the inverter. I only consider the operating range of the inverter when it won't affect the inverter during its operational time, such as when the solar module is at its coldest in the first few moments of sunlight when it hits max Voc. That will only happen for a few moments as the sun heats the solar module. High heat is different. If the solar module falls below the MPPT voltage window that will happen in the middle of the day when the solar array should be producing its maximum power for the day. If the voltage of the solar module falls below the MPPT voltage window during that time it becomes much less efficient at tracking the power or simply turns off. Some studies have shown a solar module degradation rate averaging up to 1.4%/year. >> >> Here is an example of what I'm talking about with weather data for Eugene OR and a roof-mounted Phono PS400M6H-18/VHB solar module. >> Vmp 30.85 >> Coe/°C = -0.28% >> High-Temperature voltage calculation: 30.85 Vmp X [ 1-(32+30-25) X .0028] = 27.65 Vmp adjusted for 2% average high temp of 32°C >> Here is my Enphase cheat sheet for quickly looking at design compatibility. >> Enphase M# Operating Range MPPT Voltage Range Commonly used module pairings Phase >> IQ8MC-72-M-US 18-58 V 25-45 V 260-460 Wstc 1 >> IQ8-60-M-US 16-48 V 27-37 V 235-350 Wstc 1 >> IQ8PLUS-72-M-US 16-58 V 27-45 V 235-440 Wstc 1 >> IQ8H-3P-72-E-US 16-63 V 28.5-45 V 320-540 Wstc 3 >> IQ8M-72-US 16-58 V 30-45 V 260-460 Wstc 1 >> IQ8A-M-US 16-58 V 32-45 V 295-500 Wstc 1 >> IQ8A-72-M-US 16-58 V 32-45 V 295-500 Wstc 1 >> IQ8P-3P-72-E-US 16-63 V 35.5-53 V 380-640 Wstc 3 >> IQ8H-208-72-M-US 16-58 V 36-45 V 295-500 Wstc 1 >> IQ8X-80-M-US 25-79.5 V 43-60 V 320-540 Wstc 1 >> So I'm good with three of the inverters on my list right? Not really. As the solar cells age the degradation of the cell drops the cells voltage. A good design practice is to drop the adjusted Vmp down 10% to make up for cell degradation. So, 27.65 Adjusted Vmp - 10% would be 24.88Vmp. I would still feel comfortable using one of the inverters on my list. >> If I go to the Enphase compatibility calculator it shows seven inverters that are compatible with the Phono PS400M6H-18/VHB solar module for my climate. >> >> Other than that issue, we try to use micro inverters only when they are reasonably easy to get to because we know we will be back at some point to replace inverters. >> Electronic components fail mostly based on temperature fluctuations over time. The area behind a solar array is both the hottest and coldest location at the installation site. I do like micro inverters for many applications where there are multiple roof angles and or moving shade to deal with on a client's roof. >> >> I would love to hear back from others if you think my calculations are way off. This kind of back and forth is how we grow as installers and I won't take offense if any of you slam my ideas. >> >> Thanks to all of you for contributing to our industry, >> >> Vince McClellan >> President >> NABCEP PV Professional >> p: 541-485-8122 >> a: 860 Conger St. Suite 12,. Eugene, OR 97402 >> e: vince at solarenergydesgin.com >> w: SolarEnergyDesign.com >> CCB# 161672 >> >> >> If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient, please delete this email. Copying or using any part, content, or attachment of this email is strictly prohibited. >> >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 1:55 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> It's very curious how there are geographic preferences, and that is definitely something to consider. I tell clients that there won't be anyone to service their system 10 years down the line if they go with anyone but Enphase around here. If a prospective client has 10 quotes locally, 9 of them will be Enphase, and one will be Tesla. If they get an 11th quote they might get a Franklin WH or another brand if they are doing battery backup. Even SolarEdge is dead here, as far as I can tell. I haven't seen a competitive quote with SolarEdge in ages. >> >> I can share this poignant advice with clients because I'm one of the only people in Southwest Florida who will even touch something from Outback, Scheneider/Xantrex/Trace, Sonnen, Magnum, SMA, or even old grid-tied Fronius IGs. If someone wants to come and swap out HD Wave inverters as a living here, I will gladly step aside. Swimming against the current gets very tiring for consumers. Sometimes, you just have to follow the crowd. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 4:41 PM August Goers > wrote: >> I agree with Jason that it is going to take a really compelling microinverter product at this point to knock Enphase off the #1 micro position. It seems risky to sell any other microinverter products given the complexity of the product and the fact that if the competing product manufacturer goes out of business that there won't be any choice but to replace all of that product. That said, competition in the market is good, so my salutes to anyone willing to try other microinverter products. We have experience with SolarBridge (they were owned by SunPower for a while) and that product was by far inferior to Enphase. We've also installed a few hundred PowerOne ABB micros - those have been for the most part very reliable, but the monitoring side of the equation is very poor so dealing with RMA issues there is a bit of a challenge. Both of those products are outdated now and no longer on the market. >> >> I've posted here on this before - we're having good luck with the Tesla solar inverter. It is low cost and has lots of benefits including 4 x trackers with low start voltage, power control systems, built in monitoring, etc. We're now offering Enphase systems as well (we were a SunPower dealer for many years) so customers can have a choice if Tesla is not their cup of tea. Elon Musk is aggravating. >> >> August >> Luminalt >> >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 1:21 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> I don't really understand the resistance to Enphase on a roof (anymore, at least). We have many thousands of microinverters out there, and I don't even have a dedicated service department. We swap maybe 100 a year at the most at this point, and that includes for systems we didn't install. It's super quick and easy. But most of our roofs are single story 5:12 pitch on average. >> >> I have at least a dozen small commercial sites with 100 - 500 units each, and I can't remembereven an handful of replacements on those over the years. >> >> I did get involved with a commercial site I did not install, and that was a nightmare, with over 100 early generation microinverters that failed. It was a custom rack, and the clamps were a nightmare, not to mention the array map had gotten out of whack over the years from prior micro swaps. But for the most part, I have no issue with micro swaps on roofs. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 2:14 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> I am with Chris except I might put them on a barn roof ! Never a residence and never Offgrid ! >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >> >> On 2024-09-24 10:16 am, Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >>> Was an Enphase installer since the beginning, I think 08' but moved away when the tech support and early model failures were numerous. Moved to APS with the two modules per micro. Really saved on install time as it was half the number of micro's. One recommendation regardless of brand, don't put them on a roof. >>> >>> Christopher >>> >>> On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 11:14 AM Bryan Norkunas via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> I've had great luck with APS and so have our local installers. >>> >>> Bryan Norkunas >>> PV-Cables Inc. >>> 989 Milton Ave Ste 1D >>> Ferndale CA 95536 >>> (707) 923-3000 office >>> www.pv-cables.com >>> >>> >>> Please print only if necessary. >>> >>> NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by replying to this email, and destroy all copies of the original message. >>> >>> From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of greg egan via RE-wrenches > >>> Sent: Monday, September 23, 2024 7:29 PM >>> To: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >>> Cc: greg egan > >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] favortie micro inverters? >>> >>> Esteemed wrenches, >>> >>> Have a client that is grid connected (not my usual client) and looking >>> to do solar without back up. Has shading issues so I'm thinking micros >>> would work best for this application, plus take care of rapid shut down >>> without needing extra devices/wiring. Problem is I have not ever >>> installed micros. >>> >>> Any recommendations on brands /models that have been reliable? Decent >>> tech support? Customer just wants something that works and is >>> relatively simple to navigate the online monitoring. Probably 4-5 kW so >>> not a huge system. >>> >>> Thanks in advance, I appreciate it! >>> >>> Greg Egan >>> Remote Power Inc. >>> Fairbanks, AK >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Chris Schaefer's >>> >>> Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >>> 5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >>> www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >>> >>> >>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Wed Sep 25 11:41:48 2024 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Jesse Dahl) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2024 08:41:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] favortie micro inverters? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3CA593D0-517C-4281-9ABB-AA65AE7CE3A1@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Sep 25 14:00:56 2024 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2024 11:00:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] favortie micro inverters? In-Reply-To: <3CA593D0-517C-4281-9ABB-AA65AE7CE3A1@gmail.com> References: <3CA593D0-517C-4281-9ABB-AA65AE7CE3A1@gmail.com> Message-ID: I've noticed that the Enphase compatibility calculator needs some work - it called out microinverters as being compatible when clearly the operating voltages or currents were outside of the ranges listed on the spec sheet. Need to double check all of the voltage and currents at both high and low ranges with the appropriate temperature corrections applied to make sure they work! And, good point about modules losing a bit of max current and voltage as they age. August On Wed, Sep 25, 2024 at 8:43 AM Jesse Dahl via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I like enphase too. I live in northern MN and we see cold temps of -40 F > in the winter and they hold up. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Sep 23, 2024, at 10:09 PM, david quattro via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > I used Chilicon on a couple installs, and Enphase is far better. > > > > > > On Mon, Sep 23, 2024 at 9:05 PM greg egan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Good intel. I believe their micros are rated to -40C/F. If they quit >> working at that temp it would be okay as long as they start back up when >> if warms up. Normally when it's that cold the sun is pretty scarce at >> this latitude. >> >> Greg Egan >> Remote Power Inc. >> Fairbanks, AK >> >> On 9/23/2024 7:47 PM, MDElectricSolar wrote: >> > Been around forever, good tech support, the products have been improved >> and refined, easy to install, good monitoring platform. Not sure how they >> would fare in Alaskan winters though… >> > >> > Maybe an sma installed indoors? >> > >> > Michael D Nelson >> > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >> > 707-684-0064 mobile >> > 707-884-1862 office >> > www.mdelectricsolar.com >> > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >> > >> > >> >> On Sep 23, 2024, at 8:41 PM, greg egan >> wrote: >> >> >> >> Michael, thank you. Any particular reason you like them best? >> >> >> >> >> >> Greg Egan >> >> Remote Power Inc. >> >> Fairbanks, AK >> >> >> >>> On 9/23/2024 7:29 PM, MDElectricSolar wrote: >> >>> Enphase… >> >>> >> >>> Michael D Nelson >> >>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >> >>> 707-684-0064 mobile >> >>> 707-884-1862 office >> >>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >> >>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>>> On Sep 23, 2024, at 7:30 PM, greg egan via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>>> Esteemed wrenches, >> >>>> >> >>>> Have a client that is grid connected (not my usual client) and >> looking to do solar without back up. Has shading issues so I'm thinking >> micros would work best for this application, plus take care of rapid shut >> down without needing extra devices/wiring. Problem is I have not ever >> installed micros. >> >>>> >> >>>> Any recommendations on brands /models that have been reliable? >> Decent tech support? Customer just wants something that works and is >> relatively simple to navigate the online monitoring. Probably 4-5 kW so >> not a huge system. >> >>>> >> >>>> Thanks in advance, I appreciate it! >> >>>> >> >>>> Greg Egan >> >>>> Remote Power Inc. >> >>>> Fairbanks, AK >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >>>> >> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >>>> >> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >>>> >> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>>> >> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >> try the other: >> >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>>> >> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >> >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >>>> >> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >> >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >>>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Wed Sep 25 15:02:07 2024 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2024 15:02:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase excess solar for IQ system controller Message-ID: Hi all, All this talk about Enphase recently and I have a design question that I am having trouble getting a straightforward answer to. The IQ system controller can take up to 64A of PV AC output on the DER port (coming from the IQ combiner for example). When there is more solar on site, the question is what do you need to do with the rest of the solar. They have a system planning guide that talks about some of this and you can find it here: https://enphase.com/download/planning-enphase-energy-system-tech-brief Page 59 bullet point 6 says that with IQ8 micros, the excess PV must be split into a grid-tied system. I recently did this, got a separate IQ gateway, and a power line filter, and the system continues to have cross talk issues between the two gateways, and the microinverters will just not report properly no matter how many times tech support re-provisions the devices and prevents each gateway from looking for more devices. Then I noticed that with M series micros (page 62 bullet point 9) it says that microinverters exceeding 64A can be added to the main panel. In this scenario, there will be more than 64A of solar flowing through the IQ system controller, even though the DER port is limited to 64A. I would like to do something similar to this for my system with crosstalk issues and get rid of the second IQ Gateway. I asked tech support why there was a difference in the planning document for IQ8 and for M series and whether I could add the extra IQ8 into the backed up subpanel (This is a Sunlight backup system). They did not give me a fully complete answer, but they did say this, "You can add the panels up to 64A into the system controller and exceeding PV can be connected to the backup subpanel." I fear that this was a level 1 tech and that they may not have completely understood the situation. This is the answer that I wanted, but I am not sure I trust it yet. Has anyone here tried something similar to this? Thanks! -Dave -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Sep 25 17:15:01 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2024 17:15:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase excess solar for IQ system controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: With IQ8 series microinverters, there is an absolute limit of 64A connected to the IQ Combiner input lugs of the System Controller. The DER port is not for PV. It is for batteries that exceed the limits of the storage port. You can have up to (8) 5P on the Storage lugs and (8) on the DER lugs. But these will be power limited to the output of (4) 5P batteries per input. In other words, this is a way to connect 80kWh of capacity to the system, but you will only have 128A of power output even though the (16) batteries are capable of 256A. Anyway, 64A is the PV limit for backup systems, and there is no way around it with IQ8. You CANNOT connect any additional IQ8 microinverters on the load side of the System Controller when there is backup involved. All IQ8 must be connected to the IQ Combiner lugs on the System Controller. The relay in the system controller must be able to turn off the IQ8 micros. This relay also disconnects the rooftop micros when the RSD switch is turned off. The additional microinverters can be connected to the line side of the System Controller (as a feeder tap or anywhere upstream of the System Controller that complies with code). You do need a separate IQ Gateway, because these microinverters need to be configured for grid-tie only. All microinverters connected to the same Gateway must have the same mode. The micros connected to the backup system will be set up as multi-mode. Don't bother with a line filter unless it becomes truly necessary. There are things that Enphase can do on its end to reduce the crosstalk by establishing separate domains. They SAY you need a line filter, but this is rarely the case. Don't listen to anything that Tier 1 customer service tells you regarding powerline communications. That's their go-to response when they can't figure something out. As for the Sunlight Backup system, I don't have a single client that is satisfied with this setup. It really needs at least one IQ Battery 5P to be functional, in which case you can forget about the ridiculous limitations of 8 x 120V or 4 x 240V circuits and the rigmarole of two load controllers that Sunlight Backup requires, especially with that much PV. I would avoid Sunlight Backup at all costs. It's not useful for anything but the smallest loads during the best conditions As for your crosstalk issues, here is what I would do. Have customer service retire one of the IQ Gateways and all associated microinverters. Provision the other IQ Gateway and get those microinverters working. Then turn OFF power to the working Gateway and microinverters. Turn ON power to the other Gateway and microinverters and have customer service unretire everything. Reprovision using ITK. Once everything is working on the second Gateway, turn the first one back on and all microinverters, and you will probably be up and running without further issues. I was really disappointed with the discontinuation of the IQ7 because of this 64A hard limit of PV on a backup system. With IQ7 you could have 96A of PV with the previous generation battery. The IQ8 was a step backward for large backup systems. I provided this feedback to Enphase, and they were working on a possible workaround to make something work, but I would not hold your breath. I even wrote this article when the issue first came to light: https://floridasolardesigngroup.com/enphase-iq7-versus-iq8-microinverters/ Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Sep 25, 2024 at 3:02 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi all, > > All this talk about Enphase recently and I have a design question that I > am having trouble getting a straightforward answer to. The IQ system > controller can take up to 64A of PV AC output on the DER port (coming from > the IQ combiner for example). When there is more solar on site, the > question is what do you need to do with the rest of the solar. > > They have a system planning guide that talks about some of this and you > can find it here: > https://enphase.com/download/planning-enphase-energy-system-tech-brief > > Page 59 bullet point 6 says that with IQ8 micros, the excess PV must be > split into a grid-tied system. I recently did this, got a separate IQ > gateway, and a power line filter, and the system continues to have cross > talk issues between the two gateways, and the microinverters will just not > report properly no matter how many times tech support re-provisions the > devices and prevents each gateway from looking for more devices. > > Then I noticed that with M series micros (page 62 bullet point 9) it says > that microinverters exceeding 64A can be added to the main panel. In this > scenario, there will be more than 64A of solar flowing through the IQ > system controller, even though the DER port is limited to 64A. I would like > to do something similar to this for my system with crosstalk issues and get > rid of the second IQ Gateway. > > I asked tech support why there was a difference in the planning document > for IQ8 and for M series and whether I could add the extra IQ8 into the > backed up subpanel (This is a Sunlight backup system). They did not give me > a fully complete answer, but they did say this, "You can add the panels up > to 64A into the system controller and exceeding PV can be connected to the > backup subpanel." > > I fear that this was a level 1 tech and that they may not have completely > understood the situation. This is the answer that I wanted, but I am not > sure I trust it yet. Has anyone here tried something similar to this? > > Thanks! > -Dave > > -- > > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 270-0370 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Thu Sep 26 07:45:16 2024 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2024 11:45:16 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trade show : Re Outback Message-ID: Tech support picked up the phone within 2 minutes today. The tech I spoke with has been with OB for ten years , as I recall He said they are building up “ the team” Seems like tech support will be there , but I’m not sure about the product lines Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > On Sep 24, 2024, at 7:44 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Since Dana brought up OB, does anyone have any updates as to OB? > > If they were not at the trade show then that is enough evidence to me they are gone. > > Jay > >> On Sep 24, 2024, at 7:02 AM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches wrote: >> As previously mentioned, I am upgrading my home off grid system and had to put in flex max 100 and just wanted to report on the difference I’ve seen. >> I still have the older Array up about 6300 W on trackers and the stability of the voltage once the system is full is rock solid compared to the FM 80s which would tend to float around and the battery percentage sits right at 100. It’s really stable with the FM 80s. It would tend to slowly drift down and by sunset it could say anywhere from 97 to 95% full, just an observation thought I’d pass it along >> Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu Sep 26 09:16:19 2024 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2024 09:16:19 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase excess solar for IQ system controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jason, Thanks for your detailed response here. What tech support told me was what I wanted to hear, although I just did not totally trust them. As for the powerline filter, I planned on that from the beginning, based on their planning guide. Having it in there cannot hurt, right? For the Sunlight Backup, I have found that having a detailed conversation about what it can and cannot do is quite helpful. If you keep the bar really low, its not difficult to step over it. I find some people here like it as an intermediate if they aren't quite ready for batteries for some reason or another. Also, note that you only need one load controller now. And I use that more to provide on/off load control rather than a turn on sequence. Theoretically, you could just have the sunlight backup provide power to an entire MSP (although that would not be a good idea). I'll be heading out to the site in the near future to try again to get the crosstalk issues sorted. I'll let you know if your sequence here works. I've talked to three of their storage techs about it so far, and none have suggested this. You would think they would have some more standardization around these sorts of issues. Cheers, Dave On Wed, Sep 25, 2024 at 5:15 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > With IQ8 series microinverters, there is an absolute limit of 64A > connected to the IQ Combiner input lugs of the System Controller. The DER > port is not for PV. It is for batteries that exceed the limits of the > storage port. You can have up to (8) 5P on the Storage lugs and (8) on the > DER lugs. But these will be power limited to the output of (4) 5P batteries > per input. In other words, this is a way to connect 80kWh of capacity to > the system, but you will only have 128A of power output even though the > (16) batteries are capable of 256A. Anyway, 64A is the PV limit for backup > systems, and there is no way around it with IQ8. > > You CANNOT connect any additional IQ8 microinverters on the load side of > the System Controller when there is backup involved. All IQ8 must be > connected to the IQ Combiner lugs on the System Controller. The relay in > the system controller must be able to turn off the IQ8 micros. This relay > also disconnects the rooftop micros when the RSD switch is turned off. > > The additional microinverters can be connected to the line side of the > System Controller (as a feeder tap or anywhere upstream of the System > Controller that complies with code). You do need a separate IQ Gateway, > because these microinverters need to be configured for grid-tie only. All > microinverters connected to the same Gateway must have the same mode. The > micros connected to the backup system will be set up as multi-mode. > > Don't bother with a line filter unless it becomes truly necessary. There > are things that Enphase can do on its end to reduce the crosstalk by > establishing separate domains. They SAY you need a line filter, but this is > rarely the case. Don't listen to anything that Tier 1 customer service > tells you regarding powerline communications. That's their go-to response > when they can't figure something out. > > As for the Sunlight Backup system, I don't have a single client that is > satisfied with this setup. It really needs at least one IQ Battery 5P to be > functional, in which case you can forget about the ridiculous limitations > of 8 x 120V or 4 x 240V circuits and the rigmarole of two load controllers > that Sunlight Backup requires, especially with that much PV. I would avoid > Sunlight Backup at all costs. It's not useful for anything but the smallest > loads during the best conditions > > As for your crosstalk issues, here is what I would do. Have customer > service retire one of the IQ Gateways and all associated microinverters. > Provision the other IQ Gateway and get those microinverters working. Then > turn OFF power to the working Gateway and microinverters. Turn ON power to > the other Gateway and microinverters and have customer service unretire > everything. Reprovision using ITK. Once everything is working on the second > Gateway, turn the first one back on and all microinverters, and you will > probably be up and running without further issues. > > > I was really disappointed with the discontinuation of the IQ7 because of > this 64A hard limit of PV on a backup system. With IQ7 you could have 96A > of PV with the previous generation battery. The IQ8 was a step backward for > large backup systems. I provided this feedback to Enphase, and they were > working on a possible workaround to make something work, but I would not > hold your breath. I even wrote this article when the issue first came to > light: > > https://floridasolardesigngroup.com/enphase-iq7-versus-iq8-microinverters/ > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Wed, Sep 25, 2024 at 3:02 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> All this talk about Enphase recently and I have a design question that I >> am having trouble getting a straightforward answer to. The IQ system >> controller can take up to 64A of PV AC output on the DER port (coming from >> the IQ combiner for example). When there is more solar on site, the >> question is what do you need to do with the rest of the solar. >> >> They have a system planning guide that talks about some of this and you >> can find it here: >> https://enphase.com/download/planning-enphase-energy-system-tech-brief >> >> Page 59 bullet point 6 says that with IQ8 micros, the excess PV must be >> split into a grid-tied system. I recently did this, got a separate IQ >> gateway, and a power line filter, and the system continues to have cross >> talk issues between the two gateways, and the microinverters will just not >> report properly no matter how many times tech support re-provisions the >> devices and prevents each gateway from looking for more devices. >> >> Then I noticed that with M series micros (page 62 bullet point 9) it says >> that microinverters exceeding 64A can be added to the main panel. In this >> scenario, there will be more than 64A of solar flowing through the IQ >> system controller, even though the DER port is limited to 64A. I would like >> to do something similar to this for my system with crosstalk issues and get >> rid of the second IQ Gateway. >> >> I asked tech support why there was a difference in the planning document >> for IQ8 and for M series and whether I could add the extra IQ8 into the >> backed up subpanel (This is a Sunlight backup system). They did not give me >> a fully complete answer, but they did say this, "You can add the panels up >> to 64A into the system controller and exceeding PV can be connected to the >> backup subpanel." >> >> I fear that this was a level 1 tech and that they may not have completely >> understood the situation. This is the answer that I wanted, but I am not >> sure I trust it yet. Has anyone here tried something similar to this? >> >> Thanks! >> -Dave >> >> -- >> >> [image: Logo] >> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >> Owner | Sungineer Solar >> p: he | him | his >> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> w: www.sungineersolar.com >> c: (607) 270-0370 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Sep 26 09:36:41 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2024 09:36:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase excess solar for IQ system controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's correct you only need one load controller to commission a sunlight only backup system. Strangely enough, I am sitting in the driveway of a sunlight only backup system owner right now. I found a melted 60A solar breaker in the System Controller (not my installation, contractor is on the run). The homeowner said they have been hearing sizzling noises for 6 months! The solar breaker wasn't tripping, but the 100A load breaker was, and was too hot to touch when it did. I scolded them for not calling a licensed electrician earlier. Yikes! Anyway, they are another example of a dissatisfied owner. They said the backup performance is way too intermittent. The only thing they are powering is a refrigerator, some lights, and the 110 volt circuit for a gas water heater. They have 29 x 400W panels. Yet, they are still dissatisfied. I told them that a single 5P battery would transform their experience and likely power all of those loads throughout the night. As much as I loathe discontinuation of the IQ7, the IQ8 having no ratio to battery power restrictions is great. Jason On Thu, Sep 26, 2024, 9:16 AM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Hi Jason, > > Thanks for your detailed response here. What tech support told me was what > I wanted to hear, although I just did not totally trust them. > > As for the powerline filter, I planned on that from the beginning, based > on their planning guide. Having it in there cannot hurt, right? > > For the Sunlight Backup, I have found that having a detailed conversation > about what it can and cannot do is quite helpful. If you keep the bar > really low, its not difficult to step over it. I find some people here like > it as an intermediate if they aren't quite ready for batteries for some > reason or another. Also, note that you only need one load controller now. > And I use that more to provide on/off load control rather than a turn on > sequence. Theoretically, you could just have the sunlight backup provide > power to an entire MSP (although that would not be a good idea). > > I'll be heading out to the site in the near future to try again to get the > crosstalk issues sorted. I'll let you know if your sequence here works. > I've talked to three of their storage techs about it so far, and none have > suggested this. You would think they would have some more standardization > around these sorts of issues. > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Wed, Sep 25, 2024 at 5:15 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> With IQ8 series microinverters, there is an absolute limit of 64A >> connected to the IQ Combiner input lugs of the System Controller. The DER >> port is not for PV. It is for batteries that exceed the limits of the >> storage port. You can have up to (8) 5P on the Storage lugs and (8) on the >> DER lugs. But these will be power limited to the output of (4) 5P batteries >> per input. In other words, this is a way to connect 80kWh of capacity to >> the system, but you will only have 128A of power output even though the >> (16) batteries are capable of 256A. Anyway, 64A is the PV limit for backup >> systems, and there is no way around it with IQ8. >> >> You CANNOT connect any additional IQ8 microinverters on the load side of >> the System Controller when there is backup involved. All IQ8 must be >> connected to the IQ Combiner lugs on the System Controller. The relay in >> the system controller must be able to turn off the IQ8 micros. This relay >> also disconnects the rooftop micros when the RSD switch is turned off. >> >> The additional microinverters can be connected to the line side of the >> System Controller (as a feeder tap or anywhere upstream of the System >> Controller that complies with code). You do need a separate IQ Gateway, >> because these microinverters need to be configured for grid-tie only. All >> microinverters connected to the same Gateway must have the same mode. The >> micros connected to the backup system will be set up as multi-mode. >> >> Don't bother with a line filter unless it becomes truly necessary. There >> are things that Enphase can do on its end to reduce the crosstalk by >> establishing separate domains. They SAY you need a line filter, but this is >> rarely the case. Don't listen to anything that Tier 1 customer service >> tells you regarding powerline communications. That's their go-to response >> when they can't figure something out. >> >> As for the Sunlight Backup system, I don't have a single client that is >> satisfied with this setup. It really needs at least one IQ Battery 5P to be >> functional, in which case you can forget about the ridiculous limitations >> of 8 x 120V or 4 x 240V circuits and the rigmarole of two load controllers >> that Sunlight Backup requires, especially with that much PV. I would avoid >> Sunlight Backup at all costs. It's not useful for anything but the smallest >> loads during the best conditions >> >> As for your crosstalk issues, here is what I would do. Have customer >> service retire one of the IQ Gateways and all associated microinverters. >> Provision the other IQ Gateway and get those microinverters working. Then >> turn OFF power to the working Gateway and microinverters. Turn ON power to >> the other Gateway and microinverters and have customer service unretire >> everything. Reprovision using ITK. Once everything is working on the second >> Gateway, turn the first one back on and all microinverters, and you will >> probably be up and running without further issues. >> >> >> I was really disappointed with the discontinuation of the IQ7 because of >> this 64A hard limit of PV on a backup system. With IQ7 you could have 96A >> of PV with the previous generation battery. The IQ8 was a step backward for >> large backup systems. I provided this feedback to Enphase, and they were >> working on a possible workaround to make something work, but I would not >> hold your breath. I even wrote this article when the issue first came to >> light: >> >> https://floridasolardesigngroup.com/enphase-iq7-versus-iq8-microinverters/ >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Wed, Sep 25, 2024 at 3:02 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> All this talk about Enphase recently and I have a design question that I >>> am having trouble getting a straightforward answer to. The IQ system >>> controller can take up to 64A of PV AC output on the DER port (coming from >>> the IQ combiner for example). When there is more solar on site, the >>> question is what do you need to do with the rest of the solar. >>> >>> They have a system planning guide that talks about some of this and you >>> can find it here: >>> https://enphase.com/download/planning-enphase-energy-system-tech-brief >>> >>> Page 59 bullet point 6 says that with IQ8 micros, the excess PV must be >>> split into a grid-tied system. I recently did this, got a separate IQ >>> gateway, and a power line filter, and the system continues to have cross >>> talk issues between the two gateways, and the microinverters will just not >>> report properly no matter how many times tech support re-provisions the >>> devices and prevents each gateway from looking for more devices. >>> >>> Then I noticed that with M series micros (page 62 bullet point 9) it >>> says that microinverters exceeding 64A can be added to the main panel. In >>> this scenario, there will be more than 64A of solar flowing through the IQ >>> system controller, even though the DER port is limited to 64A. I would like >>> to do something similar to this for my system with crosstalk issues and get >>> rid of the second IQ Gateway. >>> >>> I asked tech support why there was a difference in the planning document >>> for IQ8 and for M series and whether I could add the extra IQ8 into the >>> backed up subpanel (This is a Sunlight backup system). They did not give me >>> a fully complete answer, but they did say this, "You can add the panels up >>> to 64A into the system controller and exceeding PV can be connected to the >>> backup subpanel." >>> >>> I fear that this was a level 1 tech and that they may not have >>> completely understood the situation. This is the answer that I wanted, but >>> I am not sure I trust it yet. Has anyone here tried something similar to >>> this? >>> >>> Thanks! >>> -Dave >>> >>> -- >>> >>> [image: Logo] >>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >>> Owner | Sungineer Solar >>> p: he | him | his >>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. >>> >>> >>> | Ithaca, >>> NY 14850 >>> >>> w: www.sungineersolar.com >>> c: (607) 270-0370 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Thu Sep 26 13:14:59 2024 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2024 11:14:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for Empty Sol-Ark 15K Packaging Message-ID: Wrenches, We were about to embark on the install of seven Sol-Ark 15k inverters and an 11th hour change by the client's design engineer has moved the install to a different inverter manufacturer. We literally had the inverters unboxed and set out ready to install when this occurred but the packaging has unfortunately been thrown out. I'm probably grasping at straws here but figured it was worth a shot to see if any of ya'll have upcoming 15k installs that you'd be willing to save the box(es) from for me? We are hopefully going to install three of these at another battery backup site this Fall but the remaining four we'll try to sell either ourselves or perhaps back to the distributor we acquired them from. It's a long shot, but who knows... Sam [image: OnSite Energy] SAM HARALDSON Operations Specialist (406) 551-6135 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 Locally owned and operated since 2012 [image: B Corporation] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu Sep 26 15:07:47 2024 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel at entech-engineering.com) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2024 15:07:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] favortie micro inverters? In-Reply-To: References: <3CA593D0-517C-4281-9ABB-AA65AE7CE3A1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <805436522ffb15804453f04db15cf70e@entech-engineering.com> I've only used Enphase on roofs and ground mounts. I have no complaints. I chose them over SolarEdge and I think it has worked out. Chris On 2024-09-25 14:00, August Goers via RE-wrenches wrote: > I've noticed that the Enphase compatibility calculator needs some work - it called out microinverters as being compatible when clearly the operating voltages or currents were outside of the ranges listed on the spec sheet. Need to double check all of the voltage and currents at both high and low ranges with the appropriate temperature corrections applied to make sure they work! And, good point about modules losing a bit of max current and voltage as they age. > > August > > On Wed, Sep 25, 2024 at 8:43 AM Jesse Dahl via RE-wrenches wrote: > I like enphase too. I live in northern MN and we see cold temps of -40 F in the winter and they hold up. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Sep 23, 2024, at 10:09 PM, david quattro via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I used Chilicon on a couple installs, and Enphase is far better. > > On Mon, Sep 23, 2024 at 9:05 PM greg egan via RE-wrenches wrote: Good intel. I believe their micros are rated to -40C/F. If they quit > working at that temp it would be okay as long as they start back up when > if warms up. Normally when it's that cold the sun is pretty scarce at > this latitude. > > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc. > Fairbanks, AK > > On 9/23/2024 7:47 PM, MDElectricSolar wrote: >> Been around forever, good tech support, the products have been improved and refined, easy to install, good monitoring platform. Not sure how they would fare in Alaskan winters though... >> >> Maybe an sma installed indoors? >> >> Michael D Nelson >> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >> 707-684-0064 mobile >> 707-884-1862 office >> www.mdelectricsolar.com [1] >> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar [2] >> >> >>> On Sep 23, 2024, at 8:41 PM, greg egan wrote: >>> >>> Michael, thank you. Any particular reason you like them best? >>> >>> >>> Greg Egan >>> Remote Power Inc. >>> Fairbanks, AK >>> >>>> On 9/23/2024 7:29 PM, MDElectricSolar wrote: >>>> Enphase... >>>> >>>> Michael D Nelson >>>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>>> 707-684-0064 mobile >>>> 707-884-1862 office >>>> www.mdelectricsolar.com [1] >>>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar [2] >>>> >>>> >>>>>> On Sep 23, 2024, at 7:30 PM, greg egan via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>> Esteemed wrenches, >>>>> >>>>> Have a client that is grid connected (not my usual client) and looking to do solar without back up. Has shading issues so I'm thinking micros would work best for this application, plus take care of rapid shut down without needing extra devices/wiring. Problem is I have not ever installed micros. >>>>> >>>>> Any recommendations on brands /models that have been reliable? Decent tech support? Customer just wants something that works and is relatively simple to navigate the online monitoring. Probably 4-5 kW so not a huge system. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks in advance, I appreciate it! >>>>> >>>>> Greg Egan >>>>> Remote Power Inc. >>>>> Fairbanks, AK >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.mdelectricsolar.com [2] http://www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Thu Sep 26 16:28:50 2024 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jarvis) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2024 15:28:50 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SLA battery analyzer recommendations Message-ID: Hi Group, I have a customer who has many hundreds of large Absolyte 2V cells in 24 volt battery banks. They would like some way to quantify the individual cell health. Inspection time available at each site is limited and the battery SOC will vary. These are off-grid sites and there is no outside power sources available to do actual discharge testing and then the required recharge. If it was absolutely essential, the customer could bring a generator to each site and use a backup battery charger to put some charge current into the string. But this would be less desirable. Battery strings can be temporarily taken offline, but cells will ideally still need to be connected in series. What is the favorite magic box type meter for this application? Fluke is my usual go to for portable test equipment. But they don't seem to be strong in this area. Thanks, -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Thu Sep 26 18:37:44 2024 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2024 18:37:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SLA battery analyzer recommendations Message-ID: West Mountain Radio makes a Computerized Battery Analyzer that would perform testing.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: James Jarvis via RE-wrenchesDate: Thu, Sep 26, 2024 4:29 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: James Jarvis;Subject:[RE-wrenches] SLA battery analyzer recommendationsHi Group,I have a customer who has many hundreds of large Absolyte 2V cells in 24 volt battery banks. They would like some way to quantify the individual cell health. Inspection time available at each site is limited and the battery SOC will vary. These are off-grid sites and there is no outside power sources available to do actual discharge testing and then the required recharge. If it was absolutely essential, the customer could bring a generator to each site and use a backup battery charger to put some charge current into the string. But this would be less desirable. Battery strings can be temporarily taken offline, but cells will ideally still need to be connected in series.What is the favorite magic box type meter for this application? Fluke is my usual go to for portable test equipment. But they don't seem to be strong in this area.Thanks,-James Jefferson JarvisAPRS World, LLC+1-507-454-2727http://www.aprsworld.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Sep 26 19:47:16 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2024 17:47:16 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SLA battery analyzer recommendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Fri Sep 27 08:41:26 2024 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2024 12:41:26 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GSLC DC BUS BARS Message-ID: If anyone knows of a source for the DC negative and positive bus bars for an 8048A with GSLC, please advise. TGIF! Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. From dave at sungineersolar.com Fri Sep 27 11:04:56 2024 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2024 11:04:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SunPower Warranty and Monitoring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi All, I talked to Enphase recently about this. They will be providing warranty support at least for Sunpower's microinverters. They do not know how long Sunpower's monitoring will continue to work. But they have figured out a way to use their Gateway to monitor Sunpower's microinverters, even the older -C and -D micros. Currently the customer will need to pay a flat fee of $699 and Enphase will send them the equipment and then schedule one of their techs to come install it. It sounds like it involves some reprogramming of the equipment on site. Then once they can monitor the system, they can provide warranty support. People should call Enphase at 510-945-6752 in order to get the process started. Cheers, Dave On Tue, Sep 3, 2024, 11:56 AM Corey Shalanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jason, > > Perhaps you also saw this headline: > Maxeon to offer warranty support for bankrupt SunPower > > > it doesn't address Enphase equipment separately/specifically - seemingly > only Maxeon modules (or ac modules with Enphase units attached). > > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > > > On Thurs, Aug 15, 2024 at 5:09 PM > wrote: > >> >> As another one bites the dust, does anyone have insight into who, if >> anyone, will take over the warranty for Sunpower branded Enphase >> microinverters and if the SunPower monitoring will continue to work? Or >> maybe they can be software updated to work on the Enlighten portal? >> >> And also, would a system be able to be upgraded using Enphase branded >> microinverters if the software was made to be compatible? >> >> I'm sure there are more questions than answers at this point, but I >> wanted to get the discussion going. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Sep 27 11:24:52 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2024 08:24:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GSLC DC BUS BARS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I’ve got lots of those. Contact me off list. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Fri, Sep 27, 2024 at 5:41 AM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > If anyone knows of a source for the DC negative and positive bus bars for > an 8048A with GSLC, please advise. > TGIF! > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri Sep 27 13:10:38 2024 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2024 13:10:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] I sent in my Wrench List dues, have you? Message-ID: Hello All, I know this is off-topic under list guidelines, but Michael said it was OK to post. Michael deserves our support for keeping The RE-Wrench List going for all of these years. The discussions on the list have been important for decades to the evolution of solar energy in the areas of technological innovation, dealer support, and code development. Many industry leaders have taken part in these discussions. The information on the list is invaluable for putting the word out on products that are useful and ones to be avoided. Help is often provided in getting through to manufacturers that are sometimes elusive. There are a lot of smart, experienced members on the Wrench List. Technical advice provided in various posts often exceeds that provided by product manufacturers. Getting the information needed can easily save us a few hours of work or research, which can far exceed the cost of the dues. The Wrench List is one of the most important tools in my toolbox. Hopefully other members of this list will understand its value and also send in their dues. I know Michael says the dues are optional, but come on… The Wrench List rocks. It is an incredibly valuable business investment. Let's keep it going. The minimum suggested dues are only $50 per year. I am sending significantly more. Go to http://re-wrenches.org/ to pay dues online or to find the mailing address for sending a check. Thanks, Wrenches, let's all pony up! Best, Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Sep 27 14:31:36 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2024 12:31:36 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] I sent in my Wrench List dues, have you? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Think about how much money and trouble you saved avoiding problems someone else here already suffered through.  Then put a reasonable fraction of that savings towards keeping the list going.  Its good business my fellow Wrenches!  As Drake mentioned: its one of the most important tools in our design tool box. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 9/27/2024 11:10 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hello All, > I know this is off-topic under list guidelines, but Michael said it > was OK to post. > > Michael deserves our support for keeping The RE-Wrench List going for > all of these years. The discussions on the list have been important > for decades to the evolution of solar energy in the areas of > technological innovation, dealer support, and code development. Many > industry leaders have taken part in these discussions. > > The information on the list is invaluable for putting the word out on > products that are useful and ones to be avoided. Help is often > provided in getting through to manufacturers that are sometimes elusive. > > There are a lot of smart, experienced members on the Wrench List. > Technical advice provided in various posts often exceeds that provided > by product manufacturers. Getting the information needed can easily > save us a few hours of work or research, which can far exceed the cost > of the dues. > > The Wrench List is one of the most important tools in my toolbox. > Hopefully other members of this list will understand its value and > also send in their dues. I know Michael says the dues are optional, > but come on… > > The Wrench List rocks. It is an incredibly valuable business > investment. Let’s keep it going. The minimum suggested dues are only > $50 per year. I am sending significantly more. > > Go to http://re-wrenches.org/ to pay dues online or to find the > mailing address for sending a check. > > Thanks, Wrenches, let’s all pony up! > Best, > Drake > > /Drake Chamberlin/ > > /Athens Electric LLC/ > > /Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810/ > > /NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional/ > > > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pieter at offgridenterprises.org Fri Sep 27 14:55:53 2024 From: pieter at offgridenterprises.org (pieter offgridenterprises.org) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2024 18:55:53 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SLA battery analyzer recommendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Megger has a family of testers that we have used successfully. Look closely to verify the equipment chosen will do what you need. I like the Bite 5. https://www.megger.com/en-us/products/bite5-battery-tester-series Pieter Huebner Project Manager Off Grid Enterprises From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jay via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2024 6:47 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jay Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SLA battery analyzer recommendations I would contact GNB and find out what testing products they recommend and testing procedures. Jay On Sep 26, 2024, at 4:38 PM, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches > wrote:  West Mountain Radio makes a Computerized Battery Analyzer that would perform testing. -Glenn Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. ------ Original message------ From: James Jarvis via RE-wrenches Date: Thu, Sep 26, 2024 4:29 PM To: RE-wrenches; Cc: James Jarvis; Subject:[RE-wrenches] SLA battery analyzer recommendations Hi Group, I have a customer who has many hundreds of large Absolyte 2V cells in 24 volt battery banks. They would like some way to quantify the individual cell health. Inspection time available at each site is limited and the battery SOC will vary. These are off-grid sites and there is no outside power sources available to do actual discharge testing and then the required recharge. If it was absolutely essential, the customer could bring a generator to each site and use a backup battery charger to put some charge current into the string. But this would be less desirable. Battery strings can be temporarily taken offline, but cells will ideally still need to be connected in series. What is the favorite magic box type meter for this application? Fluke is my usual go to for portable test equipment. But they don't seem to be strong in this area. Thanks, -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rick at solshineenergy.com Fri Sep 27 15:12:34 2024 From: rick at solshineenergy.com (rick at solshineenergy.com) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2024 15:12:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] I sent in my Wrench List dues, have you? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <61ED21D1-B95D-4351-8FFB-2E6AA7F97B67@solshineenergy.com> Money well spent! > On Sep 27, 2024, at 2:31 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Think about how much money and trouble you saved avoiding problems someone else here already suffered through. Then put a reasonable fraction of that savings towards keeping the list going. Its good business my fellow Wrenches! As Drake mentioned: its one of the most important tools in our design tool box. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > On 9/27/2024 11:10 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Hello All, >> >> I know this is off-topic under list guidelines, but Michael said it was OK to post. >> >> Michael deserves our support for keeping The RE-Wrench List going for all of these years. The discussions on the list have been important for decades to the evolution of solar energy in the areas of technological innovation, dealer support, and code development. Many industry leaders have taken part in these discussions. >> >> The information on the list is invaluable for putting the word out on products that are useful and ones to be avoided. Help is often provided in getting through to manufacturers that are sometimes elusive. >> >> There are a lot of smart, experienced members on the Wrench List. Technical advice provided in various posts often exceeds that provided by product manufacturers. Getting the information needed can easily save us a few hours of work or research, which can far exceed the cost of the dues. >> >> The Wrench List is one of the most important tools in my toolbox. Hopefully other members of this list will understand its value and also send in their dues. I know Michael says the dues are optional, but come on… >> >> The Wrench List rocks. It is an incredibly valuable business investment. Let’s keep it going. The minimum suggested dues are only $50 per year. I am sending significantly more. >> >> Go to http://re-wrenches.org/ to pay dues online or to find the mailing address for sending a check. >> >> Thanks, Wrenches, let’s all pony up! >> >> Best, >> >> Drake >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> >> Athens Electric LLC >> >> Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergy.com Roanoke, VA Office: 540.235.3095 Mobile: 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE -- This email is intended only for the person(s) named in the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is confidential, privileged and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender of the error and delete the message. Thank you.” -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Fri Sep 27 16:22:34 2024 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2024 13:22:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] I sent in my Wrench List dues, have you? In-Reply-To: <61ED21D1-B95D-4351-8FFB-2E6AA7F97B67@solshineenergy.com> References: <61ED21D1-B95D-4351-8FFB-2E6AA7F97B67@solshineenergy.com> Message-ID: All paid up, love this list, thanks Michael! Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org On Fri, Sep 27, 2024 at 1:11 PM rick--- via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Money well spent! > > On Sep 27, 2024, at 2:31 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Think about how much money and trouble you saved avoiding problems someone > else here already suffered through. Then put a reasonable fraction of that > savings towards keeping the list going. Its good business my fellow > Wrenches! As Drake mentioned: its one of the most important tools in our > design tool box. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > On 9/27/2024 11:10 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > > > Hello All, > > I know this is off-topic under list guidelines, but Michael said it was OK > to post. > > Michael deserves our support for keeping The RE-Wrench List going for all > of these years. The discussions on the list have been important for decades > to the evolution of solar energy in the areas of technological innovation, > dealer support, and code development. Many industry leaders have taken part > in these discussions. > > The information on the list is invaluable for putting the word out on > products that are useful and ones to be avoided. Help is often provided in > getting through to manufacturers that are sometimes elusive. > > There are a lot of smart, experienced members on the Wrench List. > Technical advice provided in various posts often exceeds that provided by > product manufacturers. Getting the information needed can easily save us a > few hours of work or research, which can far exceed the cost of the dues. > > The Wrench List is one of the most important tools in my toolbox. > Hopefully other members of this list will understand its value and also > send in their dues. I know Michael says the dues are optional, but come on… > > The Wrench List rocks. It is an incredibly valuable business investment. > Let’s keep it going. The minimum suggested dues are only $50 per year. I am > sending significantly more. > > Go to http://re-wrenches.org/ to pay dues online or to find the mailing > address for sending a check. > > Thanks, Wrenches, let’s all pony up! > > Best, > > Drake > > > *Drake Chamberlin* > > *Athens Electric LLC* > > *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* > > > > -- > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergy.com > Roanoke, VA > Office: 540.235.3095 > Mobile: 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE -- This email is intended only for the person(s) > named in > the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information > that is > confidential, privileged and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable > law. If you have > received this message in error, please notify the sender of the error and > delete the > message. Thank you.” > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Sep 27 16:41:38 2024 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2024 20:41:38 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] I sent in my Wrench List dues, have you? In-Reply-To: <61ED21D1-B95D-4351-8FFB-2E6AA7F97B67@solshineenergy.com> References: <61ED21D1-B95D-4351-8FFB-2E6AA7F97B67@solshineenergy.com> Message-ID: If you're not contributing knowledge & $ you are stalking!. Participate & Pony up All! _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: rick--- via RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] I sent in my Wrench List dues, have you? Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2024 19:12:34 +0000 Size: 35282 URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Sep 27 19:03:33 2024 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2024 16:03:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SunPower Warranty and Monitoring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Dave - The sales rep, Parker, I spoke with at Enphase said that they don't have a way of monitoring the SunPower Type C and D micros since those were manufactured by SolarBridge. They do have an upgrade program where folks can pay for new IQ7 micros, he said. They also have an upgrade program to switch over to Enphase monitoring for $699 as you mention, but that is only for IQ7AS and IQ7HS according to Parker. Were you able to get more info on the potential monitoring for the C and D units? Best, August On Fri, Sep 27, 2024 at 8:05 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi All, > > I talked to Enphase recently about this. They will be providing warranty > support at least for Sunpower's microinverters. They do not know how long > Sunpower's monitoring will continue to work. But they have figured out a > way to use their Gateway to monitor Sunpower's microinverters, even the > older -C and -D micros. Currently the customer will need to pay a flat fee > of $699 and Enphase will send them the equipment and then schedule one of > their techs to come install it. It sounds like it involves some > reprogramming of the equipment on site. > > Then once they can monitor the system, they can provide warranty support. > People should call Enphase at 510-945-6752 in order to get the process > started. > > Cheers, > Dave > > > On Tue, Sep 3, 2024, 11:56 AM Corey Shalanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Jason, >> >> Perhaps you also saw this headline: >> Maxeon to offer warranty support for bankrupt SunPower >> >> >> it doesn't address Enphase equipment separately/specifically - seemingly >> only Maxeon modules (or ac modules with Enphase units attached). >> >> Corey Shalanski >> Jah Light Solar >> Portland, Jamaica >> >> >> On Thurs, Aug 15, 2024 at 5:09 PM > > wrote: >> >>> >>> As another one bites the dust, does anyone have insight into who, if >>> anyone, will take over the warranty for Sunpower branded Enphase >>> microinverters and if the SunPower monitoring will continue to work? Or >>> maybe they can be software updated to work on the Enlighten portal? >>> >>> And also, would a system be able to be upgraded using Enphase branded >>> microinverters if the software was made to be compatible? >>> >>> I'm sure there are more questions than answers at this point, but I >>> wanted to get the discussion going. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Fri Sep 27 20:05:59 2024 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2024 20:05:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SunPower Warranty and Monitoring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi August, That is fascinating that you got told different info. I specifically asked the person I talked to (I did not write down her name though) about the -C and -D microinverters. She said that they had figured out a way to monitor them with their equipment, but they needed some kind of reprogramming. Being that you got told conflicting information, I am going to call them back next week and see if I cannot get a definitive answer. I'll update you all here afterwards. Cheers, Dave On Fri, Sep 27, 2024, 7:04 PM August Goers via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Dave - > > The sales rep, Parker, I spoke with at Enphase said that they don't have a > way of monitoring the SunPower Type C and D micros since those were > manufactured by SolarBridge. They do have an upgrade program where folks > can pay for new IQ7 micros, he said. They also have an upgrade program to > switch over to Enphase monitoring for $699 as you mention, but that is only > for IQ7AS and IQ7HS according to Parker. Were you able to get more info on > the potential monitoring for the C and D units? > > Best, > > August > > > > > On Fri, Sep 27, 2024 at 8:05 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> I talked to Enphase recently about this. They will be providing warranty >> support at least for Sunpower's microinverters. They do not know how long >> Sunpower's monitoring will continue to work. But they have figured out a >> way to use their Gateway to monitor Sunpower's microinverters, even the >> older -C and -D micros. Currently the customer will need to pay a flat fee >> of $699 and Enphase will send them the equipment and then schedule one of >> their techs to come install it. It sounds like it involves some >> reprogramming of the equipment on site. >> >> Then once they can monitor the system, they can provide warranty support. >> People should call Enphase at 510-945-6752 in order to get the process >> started. >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 3, 2024, 11:56 AM Corey Shalanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Jason, >>> >>> Perhaps you also saw this headline: >>> Maxeon to offer warranty support for bankrupt SunPower >>> >>> >>> it doesn't address Enphase equipment separately/specifically - seemingly >>> only Maxeon modules (or ac modules with Enphase units attached). >>> >>> Corey Shalanski >>> Jah Light Solar >>> Portland, Jamaica >>> >>> >>> On Thurs, Aug 15, 2024 at 5:09 PM >> > wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> As another one bites the dust, does anyone have insight into who, if >>>> anyone, will take over the warranty for Sunpower branded Enphase >>>> microinverters and if the SunPower monitoring will continue to work? Or >>>> maybe they can be software updated to work on the Enlighten portal? >>>> >>>> And also, would a system be able to be upgraded using Enphase branded >>>> microinverters if the software was made to be compatible? >>>> >>>> I'm sure there are more questions than answers at this point, but I >>>> wanted to get the discussion going. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Fri Sep 27 20:22:57 2024 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Jesse Dahl) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2024 19:22:57 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] I sent in my Wrench List dues, have you? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33723082-A6CA-44E0-9FF7-3E33AEEFD516@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Fri Sep 27 22:00:00 2024 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2024 22:00:00 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] I sent in my Wrench List dues, have you? In-Reply-To: <33723082-A6CA-44E0-9FF7-3E33AEEFD516@gmail.com> References: <33723082-A6CA-44E0-9FF7-3E33AEEFD516@gmail.com> Message-ID: I can’t count how many times you wrenchers have saved me. Pay honor and dues! On Fri, Sep 27, 2024 at 9:34 PM Jesse Dahl via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Paid. Great idea! Patreon for PV. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Sep 27, 2024, at 3:56 PM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > If you’re not contributing knowledge & $ you are stalking!. Participate & > Pony up All! > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! > > C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com > > W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com > > *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gowdyelectriccambria at gmail.com Sun Sep 29 22:55:26 2024 From: gowdyelectriccambria at gmail.com (Jim Gowdy) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2024 19:55:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racking on residential rooftops Message-ID: Hello All, I am trying to develop a good process for solar racking installs on roofs and ground mounts. I would like to be aware of any tricks of the trade. Right now the questions I have are....... - How to find high/low spots on roofs - How to get rails to the same level in all directions - when mounting the solar panels, how to keep a straight line. So far a string line on the top and bottom is helpful. -- Jim with Gowdy Electric Cambria, Ca 93428 business 805 927 2630 cell 805 975 5279 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Mon Sep 30 09:35:09 2024 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2024 07:35:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] I sent in my Wrench List dues, have you? In-Reply-To: References: <33723082-A6CA-44E0-9FF7-3E33AEEFD516@gmail.com> Message-ID: I've easily gotten my money's worth since the suggested subscription model was introduced and am happy to continue supporting this list both financially and through the sharing of information. - Sam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Mon Sep 30 12:02:54 2024 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2024 10:02:54 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] I sent in my Wrench List dues, have you? In-Reply-To: References: <33723082-A6CA-44E0-9FF7-3E33AEEFD516@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5E3E5AE4-BED1-4A03-9CAE-A59572F5BE33@gmail.com> The quality of the information (and the general level of discourse) on this list is priceless, in my opinion. I may not post myself very often, but I read new posts every day, and I appreciate this resource greatly. My dues are paid! Luke Christy Renewable energy consultant NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO 81144 sgsrenewables at gmail.com > On Sep 27, 2024, at 8:00 PM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I can’t count how many times you wrenchers have saved me. Pay honor and dues! > > On Fri, Sep 27, 2024 at 9:34 PM Jesse Dahl via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Paid. Great idea! Patreon for PV. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Sep 27, 2024, at 3:56 PM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> >>>  >>> If you’re not contributing knowledge & $ you are stalking!. Participate & Pony up All! >>> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________________________ >>> >>> Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! >>> >>> C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com >>> W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com >>> “Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!” >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Mon Sep 30 12:54:52 2024 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2024 09:54:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] I sent in my Wrench List dues, have you? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1727715310473.7999314b2b87701b@re-wrenches.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Mon Sep 30 16:30:21 2024 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2024 16:30:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SunPower Warranty and Monitoring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: August, When did you talk to Enphase about monitoring the Sunpower SolarBridge micros? It sounds like this whole thing was dropped in their lap about a month ago, and they are still working out the kinks. I talked to them again today, and I was told that it is possible to monitor the -C and -D micros. If you called before last week, they might not have had that sorted out yet. I was also told that they will be providing warranty support for the panels themselves as well, although I gather that the details are still a bit fuzzy. I asked about the arc fault retrofits, and it sounded like they planned on supporting that, but again, I don't think the details are fully worked out yet. As of now if you have an existing site with both Sunpower and Enphase, the existing Enphase Gateway cannot be made to monitor the Sunpower panels (at least yet). But there might be a chance that if you are adding Enphase to an existing Sunpower system, you might be able to get one of the specially programmed Gateways from the beginning. Those will be able to monitor both the Enphase and the Sunpower equipment. Cheers, Dave On Fri, Sep 27, 2024 at 8:05 PM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Hi August, > > That is fascinating that you got told different info. I specifically asked > the person I talked to (I did not write down her name though) about the -C > and -D microinverters. She said that they had figured out a way to monitor > them with their equipment, but they needed some kind of reprogramming. > > Being that you got told conflicting information, I am going to call them > back next week and see if I cannot get a definitive answer. I'll update you > all here afterwards. > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Fri, Sep 27, 2024, 7:04 PM August Goers via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi Dave - >> >> The sales rep, Parker, I spoke with at Enphase said that they don't have >> a way of monitoring the SunPower Type C and D micros since those were >> manufactured by SolarBridge. They do have an upgrade program where folks >> can pay for new IQ7 micros, he said. They also have an upgrade program to >> switch over to Enphase monitoring for $699 as you mention, but that is only >> for IQ7AS and IQ7HS according to Parker. Were you able to get more info on >> the potential monitoring for the C and D units? >> >> Best, >> >> August >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 27, 2024 at 8:05 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> I talked to Enphase recently about this. They will be providing warranty >>> support at least for Sunpower's microinverters. They do not know how long >>> Sunpower's monitoring will continue to work. But they have figured out a >>> way to use their Gateway to monitor Sunpower's microinverters, even the >>> older -C and -D micros. Currently the customer will need to pay a flat fee >>> of $699 and Enphase will send them the equipment and then schedule one of >>> their techs to come install it. It sounds like it involves some >>> reprogramming of the equipment on site. >>> >>> Then once they can monitor the system, they can provide warranty >>> support. People should call Enphase at 510-945-6752 in order to get the >>> process started. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Sep 3, 2024, 11:56 AM Corey Shalanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Jason, >>>> >>>> Perhaps you also saw this headline: >>>> Maxeon to offer warranty support for bankrupt SunPower >>>> >>>> >>>> it doesn't address Enphase equipment separately/specifically - >>>> seemingly only Maxeon modules (or ac modules with Enphase units attached). >>>> >>>> Corey Shalanski >>>> Jah Light Solar >>>> Portland, Jamaica >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thurs, Aug 15, 2024 at 5:09 PM >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> As another one bites the dust, does anyone have insight into who, if >>>>> anyone, will take over the warranty for Sunpower branded Enphase >>>>> microinverters and if the SunPower monitoring will continue to work? Or >>>>> maybe they can be software updated to work on the Enlighten portal? >>>>> >>>>> And also, would a system be able to be upgraded using Enphase branded >>>>> microinverters if the software was made to be compatible? >>>>> >>>>> I'm sure there are more questions than answers at this point, but I >>>>> wanted to get the discussion going. >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon Sep 30 16:50:13 2024 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2024 13:50:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SunPower Warranty and Monitoring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Dave - Thanks for following up on this. I spoke with Parker in the sales department just last Friday 9/27. I explained that I had heard that monitoring type C and D SolarBridge with Enphase equipment was possible, but he said there was no way. That said, I think he was just not up to speed yet - we called tech support today and were told the same as you reported, that it is possible to monitor the type C and D micros with Enphase monitoring equipment. We also confirmed with Enphase tech support that SunPower modules with IQ7XS micros should be compatible with the Enphase IQ Gateway or Combiner 5. Those micros were paired with the smaller 96 cell modules like the X22-360. Clearly there are a lot of nuances to all of the possibilities, so I'm happy that we're able to chat about it here on Wrenches. I'm also looking forward to receiving more documentation from Enphase as they sort this all out. Best, August On Mon, Sep 30, 2024 at 1:32 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > August, > > When did you talk to Enphase about monitoring the Sunpower SolarBridge > micros? It sounds like this whole thing was dropped in their lap about a > month ago, and they are still working out the kinks. I talked to them again > today, and I was told that it is possible to monitor the -C and -D micros. > If you called before last week, they might not have had that sorted out > yet. I was also told that they will be providing warranty support for the > panels themselves as well, although I gather that the details are still a > bit fuzzy. I asked about the arc fault retrofits, and it sounded like they > planned on supporting that, but again, I don't think the details are fully > worked out yet. > > As of now if you have an existing site with both Sunpower and Enphase, the > existing Enphase Gateway cannot be made to monitor the Sunpower panels (at > least yet). But there might be a chance that if you are adding Enphase to > an existing Sunpower system, you might be able to get one of the specially > programmed Gateways from the beginning. Those will be able to monitor both > the Enphase and the Sunpower equipment. > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Fri, Sep 27, 2024 at 8:05 PM Dave Tedeyan > wrote: > >> Hi August, >> >> That is fascinating that you got told different info. I specifically >> asked the person I talked to (I did not write down her name though) about >> the -C and -D microinverters. She said that they had figured out a way to >> monitor them with their equipment, but they needed some kind of >> reprogramming. >> >> Being that you got told conflicting information, I am going to call them >> back next week and see if I cannot get a definitive answer. I'll update you >> all here afterwards. >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> On Fri, Sep 27, 2024, 7:04 PM August Goers via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi Dave - >>> >>> The sales rep, Parker, I spoke with at Enphase said that they don't have >>> a way of monitoring the SunPower Type C and D micros since those were >>> manufactured by SolarBridge. They do have an upgrade program where folks >>> can pay for new IQ7 micros, he said. They also have an upgrade program to >>> switch over to Enphase monitoring for $699 as you mention, but that is only >>> for IQ7AS and IQ7HS according to Parker. Were you able to get more info on >>> the potential monitoring for the C and D units? >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> August >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 27, 2024 at 8:05 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi All, >>>> >>>> I talked to Enphase recently about this. They will be providing >>>> warranty support at least for Sunpower's microinverters. They do not know >>>> how long Sunpower's monitoring will continue to work. But they have figured >>>> out a way to use their Gateway to monitor Sunpower's microinverters, even >>>> the older -C and -D micros. Currently the customer will need to pay a flat >>>> fee of $699 and Enphase will send them the equipment and then schedule one >>>> of their techs to come install it. It sounds like it involves some >>>> reprogramming of the equipment on site. >>>> >>>> Then once they can monitor the system, they can provide warranty >>>> support. People should call Enphase at 510-945-6752 in order to get the >>>> process started. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 3, 2024, 11:56 AM Corey Shalanski via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Jason, >>>>> >>>>> Perhaps you also saw this headline: >>>>> Maxeon to offer warranty support for bankrupt SunPower >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> it doesn't address Enphase equipment separately/specifically - >>>>> seemingly only Maxeon modules (or ac modules with Enphase units attached). >>>>> >>>>> Corey Shalanski >>>>> Jah Light Solar >>>>> Portland, Jamaica >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thurs, Aug 15, 2024 at 5:09 PM >>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> As another one bites the dust, does anyone have insight into who, if >>>>>> anyone, will take over the warranty for Sunpower branded Enphase >>>>>> microinverters and if the SunPower monitoring will continue to work? Or >>>>>> maybe they can be software updated to work on the Enlighten portal? >>>>>> >>>>>> And also, would a system be able to be upgraded using Enphase branded >>>>>> microinverters if the software was made to be compatible? >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm sure there are more questions than answers at this point, but I >>>>>> wanted to get the discussion going. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Sep 30 18:51:26 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2024 18:51:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Battery question Message-ID: For you SolarEdge pros... I have a new client with dual 7.6kW Home Hub inverters and single SolarEdge battery. They have been replacing inverters left and right under warranty, but now have at least one working with the help of a local electrician friend. I helped them swap it in the monitoring portal remotely because SolarEdge refused to help them. They are stumped now and can't get the battery to charge with solar, so I'm being brought in for an on-site diagnostic. SolarEdge is not my strong suit. I have replaced many HD Waves, but never worked with their batteries, which are not popular here. Before I go out on Thursday I was hoping to do some research and go in with some better knowledge. The battery SOE is 0.17% according to the owners SetApp. The self test fails due to the low SOE, and the owner can't get the inverter set up to charge the battery as a result. Is there a process for dealing with very low SOE and how can I get this thing charging from the one good inverter? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Mon Sep 30 19:00:22 2024 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2024 23:00:22 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Battery question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Jason are you "battery Certified" SE is pretty sticky on this point. As to your Q I have not had to deal with this issue. _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Battery question Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2024 22:51:26 +0000 Size: 12102 URL: From pureenergysolar at hotmail.com Mon Sep 30 19:51:46 2024 From: pureenergysolar at hotmail.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2024 23:51:46 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Batteries and IQ7+ Won't Restart Message-ID: Hurricane Helene has taught us the hard way that Enphase batteries with anything other than IQ8's won't restart. The issue is that when the batteries try to restart (at the non-programmable time of 9:AM) if there are any significant loads, the batteries will not stay on long enough (300+ seconds) for any non-IQ8 micros to energize. The battery will attempt multiple times, but if there is a load, (such as a well pump) the draw from the load will essentially prohibit the batteries from energizing the micros long enough to engage and produce. The only solution is to have a load controller or turn off all loads once the power goes out. Otherwise, during these "attempts to turn on" power in the house will momentarily turn on and back off and potentially drain the batteries down to lower than the point of which they can even attempt to restart. I spoke at length with Enphase upper engineering (not tech support) about this today. They now know that most of the tech support staff does not know this important information. Once the batteries are dead, they are very difficult if not impossible to jump start with a generator. At the recommendation of tech support we tried multiple times with the "approved" inverter generator which ultimatly just wasted our time. Even though the controller/switch will accept the gen power and pass the energy to the loads, it will not energize the combiner or batteries. If your goal is to have an autonomous system with Enphase, it's only going to happen with the IQ8's (at this point). This is a significant issue with retrofitting older systems. By the way: - We've received numerous desperate calls from (orphaned) Powerwall owners whose systems also won't turn back on. - ALL of our Outback systems were issue free. I hope this helps some of you. Good Luck out there! Wayne Irwin President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com PureEnergySolar.com SolarChargingStation.com 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Mon Sep 30 20:01:42 2024 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2024 20:01:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Batteries and IQ7+ Won't Restart In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Out of curiosity, what battery form factor i.e. FLA, Lithium and manufacturer are your OB inverters running on? Christopher On Mon, Sep 30, 2024, 19:52 Wayne Irwin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hurricane Helene has taught us the hard way that Enphase batteries with > anything other than IQ8's won't restart. > The issue is that when the batteries try to restart (at the > non-programmable time of 9:AM) if there are any significant loads, the > batteries will not stay on long enough (300+ seconds) for any non-IQ8 > micros to energize. The battery will attempt multiple times, but if there > is a load, (such as a well pump) the draw from the load will essentially > prohibit the batteries from energizing the micros long enough to engage and > produce. The only solution is to have a load controller or turn off all > loads once the power goes out. Otherwise, during these "attempts to turn > on" power in the house will momentarily turn on and back off and > potentially drain the batteries down to lower than the point of which they > can even attempt to restart. I spoke at length with Enphase upper > engineering (not tech support) about this today. They now know that most of > the tech support staff does not know this important information. > > Once the batteries are dead, they are very difficult if not impossible to > jump start with a generator. At the recommendation of tech support we tried > multiple times with the "approved" inverter generator which ultimatly just > wasted our time. Even though the controller/switch will accept the gen > power and pass the energy to the loads, it will not energize the combiner > or batteries. If your goal is to have an autonomous system with Enphase, > it's only going to happen with the IQ8's (at this point). > > This is a significant issue with retrofitting older systems. > > By the way: > - We've received numerous desperate calls from (orphaned) Powerwall owners > whose systems also won't turn back on. > - ALL of our Outback systems were issue free. > > I hope this helps some of you. Good Luck out there! > > Wayne Irwin > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com > PureEnergySolar.com > SolarChargingStation.com > 352 377-6527 Office > 352 336-3299 Fax > > > The Sun Is Always Shining! > > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are > not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use > or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail > and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Sep 30 20:04:05 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2024 18:04:05 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Batteries and IQ7+ Won't Restart In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thx Wayne. Curious, I guess they are in a sense AC batteries, as there is no way to access them for DC jump charge? And I guess that is the same with Tesla? In that there is not way to access the battery, or they didn’t figure you’d actually have a true black start? thanks for the info. jay > On Sep 30, 2024, at 5:51 PM, Wayne Irwin via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hurricane Helene has taught us the hard way that Enphase batteries with anything other than IQ8's won't restart. > The issue is that when the batteries try to restart (at the non-programmable time of 9:AM) if there are any significant loads, the batteries will not stay on long enough (300+ seconds) for any non-IQ8 micros to energize. The battery will attempt multiple times, but if there is a load, (such as a well pump) the draw from the load will essentially prohibit the batteries from energizing the micros long enough to engage and produce. The only solution is to have a load controller or turn off all loads once the power goes out. Otherwise, during these "attempts to turn on" power in the house will momentarily turn on and back off and potentially drain the batteries down to lower than the point of which they can even attempt to restart. I spoke at length with Enphase upper engineering (not tech support) about this today. They now know that most of the tech support staff does not know this important information. > > Once the batteries are dead, they are very difficult if not impossible to jump start with a generator. At the recommendation of tech support we tried multiple times with the "approved" inverter generator which ultimatly just wasted our time. Even though the controller/switch will accept the gen power and pass the energy to the loads, it will not energize the combiner or batteries. If your goal is to have an autonomous system with Enphase, it's only going to happen with the IQ8's (at this point). > > This is a significant issue with retrofitting older systems. > > By the way: > - We've received numerous desperate calls from (orphaned) Powerwall owners whose systems also won't turn back on. > - ALL of our Outback systems were issue free. > > I hope this helps some of you. Good Luck out there! > > Wayne Irwin > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com > PureEnergySolar.com > SolarChargingStation.com > 352 377-6527 Office > 352 336-3299 Fax > > > The Sun Is Always Shining! > > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pureenergysolar at hotmail.com Mon Sep 30 20:34:02 2024 From: pureenergysolar at hotmail.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2024 00:34:02 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Batteries and IQ7+ Won't Restart In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Typically Rolls 8-CS-25P or S6-L16 Wayne Irwin President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com PureEnergySolar.com SolarChargingStation.com 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, September 30, 2024 8:01 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Chris Schaefer Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Batteries and IQ7+ Won't Restart Out of curiosity, what battery form factor i.e. FLA, Lithium and manufacturer are your OB inverters running on? Christopher On Mon, Sep 30, 2024, 19:52 Wayne Irwin via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hurricane Helene has taught us the hard way that Enphase batteries with anything other than IQ8's won't restart. The issue is that when the batteries try to restart (at the non-programmable time of 9:AM) if there are any significant loads, the batteries will not stay on long enough (300+ seconds) for any non-IQ8 micros to energize. The battery will attempt multiple times, but if there is a load, (such as a well pump) the draw from the load will essentially prohibit the batteries from energizing the micros long enough to engage and produce. The only solution is to have a load controller or turn off all loads once the power goes out. Otherwise, during these "attempts to turn on" power in the house will momentarily turn on and back off and potentially drain the batteries down to lower than the point of which they can even attempt to restart. I spoke at length with Enphase upper engineering (not tech support) about this today. They now know that most of the tech support staff does not know this important information. Once the batteries are dead, they are very difficult if not impossible to jump start with a generator. At the recommendation of tech support we tried multiple times with the "approved" inverter generator which ultimatly just wasted our time. Even though the controller/switch will accept the gen power and pass the energy to the loads, it will not energize the combiner or batteries. If your goal is to have an autonomous system with Enphase, it's only going to happen with the IQ8's (at this point). This is a significant issue with retrofitting older systems. By the way: - We've received numerous desperate calls from (orphaned) Powerwall owners whose systems also won't turn back on. - ALL of our Outback systems were issue free. I hope this helps some of you. Good Luck out there! Wayne Irwin President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com PureEnergySolar.com SolarChargingStation.com 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pureenergysolar at hotmail.com Mon Sep 30 20:59:48 2024 From: pureenergysolar at hotmail.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2024 00:59:48 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Batteries and IQ7+ Won't Restart In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am not aware of any access to the DC side of the battery and Enphase did not offer this as an option. We did briefly discuss their future product line (10c) with built in array and load isolation. We'll see. Wayne Irwin President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com PureEnergySolar.com SolarChargingStation.com 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. ________________________________ From: jay Sent: Monday, September 30, 2024 8:04 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Wayne Irwin Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Batteries and IQ7+ Won't Restart Thx Wayne. Curious, I guess they are in a sense AC batteries, as there is no way to access them for DC jump charge? And I guess that is the same with Tesla? In that there is not way to access the battery, or they didn’t figure you’d actually have a true black start? thanks for the info. jay On Sep 30, 2024, at 5:51 PM, Wayne Irwin via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hurricane Helene has taught us the hard way that Enphase batteries with anything other than IQ8's won't restart. The issue is that when the batteries try to restart (at the non-programmable time of 9:AM) if there are any significant loads, the batteries will not stay on long enough (300+ seconds) for any non-IQ8 micros to energize. The battery will attempt multiple times, but if there is a load, (such as a well pump) the draw from the load will essentially prohibit the batteries from energizing the micros long enough to engage and produce. The only solution is to have a load controller or turn off all loads once the power goes out. Otherwise, during these "attempts to turn on" power in the house will momentarily turn on and back off and potentially drain the batteries down to lower than the point of which they can even attempt to restart. I spoke at length with Enphase upper engineering (not tech support) about this today. They now know that most of the tech support staff does not know this important information. Once the batteries are dead, they are very difficult if not impossible to jump start with a generator. At the recommendation of tech support we tried multiple times with the "approved" inverter generator which ultimatly just wasted our time. Even though the controller/switch will accept the gen power and pass the energy to the loads, it will not energize the combiner or batteries. If your goal is to have an autonomous system with Enphase, it's only going to happen with the IQ8's (at this point). This is a significant issue with retrofitting older systems. By the way: - We've received numerous desperate calls from (orphaned) Powerwall owners whose systems also won't turn back on. - ALL of our Outback systems were issue free. I hope this helps some of you. Good Luck out there! Wayne Irwin President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com PureEnergySolar.com SolarChargingStation.com 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From garrison.rie at gmail.com Mon Sep 30 21:27:45 2024 From: garrison.rie at gmail.com (Garrison) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2024 20:27:45 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Battery question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <59E832CA-7245-40B8-BBF3-526467A16AF6@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Oct 1 14:34:26 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2024 14:34:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Batteries and IQ7+ Won't Restart In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this is also the case with IQ8 microinverters. The batteries must be able to sustain the load for up to 6 minutes to allow the microinverters to attempt to charge the battery. If you have loads that exceed the battery output capacity, it could cause the microgrid to collapse before PV can start charging. But that is also the case at night - you should not have loads (or inrush currents) that exceed the combined battery output capability without load control or manual control of loads. Here is a link to the document that explains this: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_jvHvTqZFs5Tutptaq_jbbl94GOrao7x/view?usp=sharing Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Mon, Sep 30, 2024 at 7:52 PM Wayne Irwin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hurricane Helene has taught us the hard way that Enphase batteries with > anything other than IQ8's won't restart. > The issue is that when the batteries try to restart (at the > non-programmable time of 9:AM) if there are any significant loads, the > batteries will not stay on long enough (300+ seconds) for any non-IQ8 > micros to energize. The battery will attempt multiple times, but if there > is a load, (such as a well pump) the draw from the load will essentially > prohibit the batteries from energizing the micros long enough to engage and > produce. The only solution is to have a load controller or turn off all > loads once the power goes out. Otherwise, during these "attempts to turn > on" power in the house will momentarily turn on and back off and > potentially drain the batteries down to lower than the point of which they > can even attempt to restart. I spoke at length with Enphase upper > engineering (not tech support) about this today. They now know that most of > the tech support staff does not know this important information. > > Once the batteries are dead, they are very difficult if not impossible to > jump start with a generator. At the recommendation of tech support we tried > multiple times with the "approved" inverter generator which ultimatly just > wasted our time. Even though the controller/switch will accept the gen > power and pass the energy to the loads, it will not energize the combiner > or batteries. If your goal is to have an autonomous system with Enphase, > it's only going to happen with the IQ8's (at this point). > > This is a significant issue with retrofitting older systems. > > By the way: > - We've received numerous desperate calls from (orphaned) Powerwall owners > whose systems also won't turn back on. > - ALL of our Outback systems were issue free. > > I hope this helps some of you. Good Luck out there! > > Wayne Irwin > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com > PureEnergySolar.com > SolarChargingStation.com > 352 377-6527 Office > 352 336-3299 Fax > > > The Sun Is Always Shining! > > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are > not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use > or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail > and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Oct 1 14:36:07 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2024 14:36:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Battery question In-Reply-To: <59E832CA-7245-40B8-BBF3-526467A16AF6@gmail.com> References: <59E832CA-7245-40B8-BBF3-526467A16AF6@gmail.com> Message-ID: I will blast through the certification training before Thursday and let you know what I find. Thanks for the tips on SetApp. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Mon, Sep 30, 2024 at 9:29 PM Garrison via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Jason, > > On a recent install 2 of 3 new batteries had a low SOE and failed the self > test. This made sense as part of the self test is discharging the battery, > which you wouldn’t want to do if the batteries are depleted. Anyway, the > low SOE batteries also had trouble “associating” with the inverter and were > not charging as a result. In the set app > device manager it took a few > tries but eventually they “associated” and started charging and passed the > self test. Not sure if that’s the issue here, but might be a place to start. > > I agree with Dana that support probably won’t help you if you are not > certified just fyi. Part of the certification training does walk you > through the SetApp configuration so is actually helpful. > > Good luck. > > Garrison Riegel > Celestar Solar > > On Sep 30, 2024, at 6:00 PM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Hey Jason are you “battery Certified” SE is pretty sticky on this point. > As to your Q I have not had to deal with this issue. > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! > > C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com > > W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com > > *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pureenergysolar at hotmail.com Tue Oct 1 17:22:43 2024 From: pureenergysolar at hotmail.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2024 21:22:43 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Batteries and IQ7+ Won't Restart In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The issue with the loads is a good point. According to my conversation with Enphase: because the IQ8's will form their own microgrid with sunlight, once the batteries attempt to restart at 9AM the micros will immediately connect and produce. That said it would seem that in any case there must me a load controller incorporated. Here's the link: load-and-solar-circuit-control-using-iq-system-controller-auxiliary-contacts-tech-brief (enphase.com) Does anyone from Enphase want to chime in here? Wayne Irwin President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com PureEnergySolar.com SolarChargingStation.com 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. ________________________________ From: Jason Szumlanski Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2024 2:34 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Wayne Irwin Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Batteries and IQ7+ Won't Restart I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this is also the case with IQ8 microinverters. The batteries must be able to sustain the load for up to 6 minutes to allow the microinverters to attempt to charge the battery. If you have loads that exceed the battery output capacity, it could cause the microgrid to collapse before PV can start charging. But that is also the case at night - you should not have loads (or inrush currents) that exceed the combined battery output capability without load control or manual control of loads. Here is a link to the document that explains this: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_jvHvTqZFs5Tutptaq_jbbl94GOrao7x/view?usp=sharing Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Mon, Sep 30, 2024 at 7:52 PM Wayne Irwin via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hurricane Helene has taught us the hard way that Enphase batteries with anything other than IQ8's won't restart. The issue is that when the batteries try to restart (at the non-programmable time of 9:AM) if there are any significant loads, the batteries will not stay on long enough (300+ seconds) for any non-IQ8 micros to energize. The battery will attempt multiple times, but if there is a load, (such as a well pump) the draw from the load will essentially prohibit the batteries from energizing the micros long enough to engage and produce. The only solution is to have a load controller or turn off all loads once the power goes out. Otherwise, during these "attempts to turn on" power in the house will momentarily turn on and back off and potentially drain the batteries down to lower than the point of which they can even attempt to restart. I spoke at length with Enphase upper engineering (not tech support) about this today. They now know that most of the tech support staff does not know this important information. Once the batteries are dead, they are very difficult if not impossible to jump start with a generator. At the recommendation of tech support we tried multiple times with the "approved" inverter generator which ultimatly just wasted our time. Even though the controller/switch will accept the gen power and pass the energy to the loads, it will not energize the combiner or batteries. If your goal is to have an autonomous system with Enphase, it's only going to happen with the IQ8's (at this point). This is a significant issue with retrofitting older systems. By the way: - We've received numerous desperate calls from (orphaned) Powerwall owners whose systems also won't turn back on. - ALL of our Outback systems were issue free. I hope this helps some of you. Good Luck out there! Wayne Irwin President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com PureEnergySolar.com SolarChargingStation.com 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Oct 1 17:36:16 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2024 17:36:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Batteries and IQ7+ Won't Restart In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That may be the case, but if the load exceeds the total battery plus microinverter output at the time, the microgrid will still fail. Early in the morning, having IQ8s won't make much difference versus IQ7s. It might help at high irradiance levels. Rather than load control, another strategy might be introducing time delay relays for heavy loads. When power is restored, you could set a load like a well pump to stay off for 10 minutes or something like that. On Tue, Oct 1, 2024, 5:22 PM Wayne Irwin wrote: > The issue with the loads is a good point. > According to my conversation with Enphase: because the IQ8's will form > their own microgrid with sunlight, once the batteries attempt to restart at > 9AM the micros will immediately connect and produce. That said it would > seem that in any case there must me a load controller incorporated. > Here's the link: load-and-solar-circuit-control-using-iq-system-controller-auxiliary-contacts-tech-brief > (enphase.com) > > > *Does anyone from Enphase want to chime in here?* > > Wayne Irwin > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com > PureEnergySolar.com > SolarChargingStation.com > 352 377-6527 Office > 352 336-3299 Fax > > > The Sun Is Always Shining! > > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are > not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use > or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail > and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Jason Szumlanski > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 1, 2024 2:34 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Wayne Irwin > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Batteries and IQ7+ Won't Restart > > I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this is also the case with IQ8 > microinverters. The batteries must be able to sustain the load for up to 6 > minutes to allow the microinverters to attempt to charge the battery. If > you have loads that exceed the battery output capacity, it could cause the > microgrid to collapse before PV can start charging. > > But that is also the case at night - you should not have loads (or inrush > currents) that exceed the combined battery output capability without load > control or manual control of loads. > > Here is a link to the document that explains this: > > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_jvHvTqZFs5Tutptaq_jbbl94GOrao7x/view?usp=sharing > > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Mon, Sep 30, 2024 at 7:52 PM Wayne Irwin via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hurricane Helene has taught us the hard way that Enphase batteries with > anything other than IQ8's won't restart. > The issue is that when the batteries try to restart (at the > non-programmable time of 9:AM) if there are any significant loads, the > batteries will not stay on long enough (300+ seconds) for any non-IQ8 > micros to energize. The battery will attempt multiple times, but if there > is a load, (such as a well pump) the draw from the load will essentially > prohibit the batteries from energizing the micros long enough to engage and > produce. The only solution is to have a load controller or turn off all > loads once the power goes out. Otherwise, during these "attempts to turn > on" power in the house will momentarily turn on and back off and > potentially drain the batteries down to lower than the point of which they > can even attempt to restart. I spoke at length with Enphase upper > engineering (not tech support) about this today. They now know that most of > the tech support staff does not know this important information. > > Once the batteries are dead, they are very difficult if not impossible to > jump start with a generator. At the recommendation of tech support we tried > multiple times with the "approved" inverter generator which ultimatly just > wasted our time. Even though the controller/switch will accept the gen > power and pass the energy to the loads, it will not energize the combiner > or batteries. If your goal is to have an autonomous system with Enphase, > it's only going to happen with the IQ8's (at this point). > > This is a significant issue with retrofitting older systems. > > By the way: > - We've received numerous desperate calls from (orphaned) Powerwall owners > whose systems also won't turn back on. > - ALL of our Outback systems were issue free. > > I hope this helps some of you. Good Luck out there! > > Wayne Irwin > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com > PureEnergySolar.com > SolarChargingStation.com > 352 377-6527 Office > 352 336-3299 Fax > > > The Sun Is Always Shining! > > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are > not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use > or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail > and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Oct 2 01:09:37 2024 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2024 22:09:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Batteries and IQ7+ Won't Restart In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches, Wayne Everything l am hearing is a major drawback to AC Coupling, so here is a fix that l have used, with a MTS or better yet an ATS connected above the inverter connection to a genset, this will simulate a grid connection and as long as you can wake up the inverters then your good. Now if not you will need to charge each individual battery and for this take to enphase. Good luck Fun times On Mon, Sep 30, 2024, 4:52 PM Wayne Irwin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hurricane Helene has taught us the hard way that Enphase batteries with > anything other than IQ8's won't restart. > The issue is that when the batteries try to restart (at the > non-programmable time of 9:AM) if there are any significant loads, the > batteries will not stay on long enough (300+ seconds) for any non-IQ8 > micros to energize. The battery will attempt multiple times, but if there > is a load, (such as a well pump) the draw from the load will essentially > prohibit the batteries from energizing the micros long enough to engage and > produce. The only solution is to have a load controller or turn off all > loads once the power goes out. Otherwise, during these "attempts to turn > on" power in the house will momentarily turn on and back off and > potentially drain the batteries down to lower than the point of which they > can even attempt to restart. I spoke at length with Enphase upper > engineering (not tech support) about this today. They now know that most of > the tech support staff does not know this important information. > > Once the batteries are dead, they are very difficult if not impossible to > jump start with a generator. At the recommendation of tech support we tried > multiple times with the "approved" inverter generator which ultimatly just > wasted our time. Even though the controller/switch will accept the gen > power and pass the energy to the loads, it will not energize the combiner > or batteries. If your goal is to have an autonomous system with Enphase, > it's only going to happen with the IQ8's (at this point). > > This is a significant issue with retrofitting older systems. > > By the way: > - We've received numerous desperate calls from (orphaned) Powerwall owners > whose systems also won't turn back on. > - ALL of our Outback systems were issue free. > > I hope this helps some of you. Good Luck out there! > > Wayne Irwin > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com > PureEnergySolar.com > SolarChargingStation.com > 352 377-6527 Office > 352 336-3299 Fax > > > The Sun Is Always Shining! > > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are > not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use > or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail > and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Wed Oct 2 10:28:08 2024 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2024 10:28:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SunnyBoy 2500 Message-ID: Hi All, Does anyone have any leads on a replacement for a SunnyBoy 2500. Ideally it would be a direct replacement, but another 120 vAC inverter would be possible as well. Thanks, Howie Michaelson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Oct 2 10:36:19 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2024 07:36:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SunnyBoy 2500 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howie: The SB2500 is a 240 VAC inverter. So is the rare SB2100. The SB1800 is 120 VAC. I have a 2500 I could spare. I am in need of an 1800. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Wed, Oct 2, 2024 at 7:29 AM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi All, > Does anyone have any leads on a replacement for a SunnyBoy 2500. Ideally > it would be a direct replacement, but another 120 vAC inverter would be > possible as well. > Thanks, > Howie Michaelson > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Wed Oct 2 11:22:36 2024 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2024 08:22:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How the US Lost the Solar Power Race to China Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: -1x-1.gif Type: image/png Size: 167637 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Wed Oct 2 12:10:18 2024 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2024 12:10:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SunnyBoy 2500 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howie, You probably know this, but in Vermont if you have to amend the CPG by using a different size inverter, it has to be up to current ISO standards. That means a new inverter of SMA 2520 100-1800 etc. cannot be used. I already ran into this once with Green Mountain Power. They rejected a classic sma of a different wattage than the original for that reason. Of course, if it is identical wattage, it falls within the grace of not having to amend the State CPG. *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 On Wed, Oct 2, 2024 at 10:29 AM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi All, > Does anyone have any leads on a replacement for a SunnyBoy 2500. Ideally > it would be a direct replacement, but another 120 vAC inverter would be > possible as well. > Thanks, > Howie Michaelson > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Oct 3 21:34:53 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2024 18:34:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racking on residential rooftops In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9f18af4c2449953b79155307c3b0beee@mail.gmail.com> Good question, Jim. We should all want our installations to work good and look good. A lot of this consideration is purely aesthetic. As such, it doesn’t always have to be good, it just has to look good. What I mean by that is if there are some misalignments that can’t be seen from any vantage point, then it is not so critical to spend a lot of time making those perfect. I always look to see what vantage points there are from which a given installation can be seen and focus on making the installation look good to those vantage points. Misaligned panels are only obvious where panel corners and edges meet. Your rack may undulate but as long as the panels meet up evenly that waviness is not readily visible. I don’t spend too much time checking a roof for flat—none of them are. Two adjacent panels bolted to the same pair of rails almost always line up. The bigger problem occurs when you have two or more sets of rails. If the vantage point is from below and the upper set of rails is even slightly higher than the lower set of rails, that protruding upper panel edge can easily be seen. If, however, the upper set of rails is slightly lower, it is less obvious. The key is to run a string line along the view axis to check to see of the pairs of rails are in alignment. Make the string as tight as possible. I space my string off the rail by a set amount—usually the thickness of a strut washer—and take another strut washer and slip it under the string at various locations. The reason to space the string above is to prevent the rail from subtly deflecting the string without you noticing it happening. You can also use a spare stick of rail or any long straight edge. Lining up rows of panels is most critical if the installation can be viewed from the side. If the alignment gets bad at first without correcting it the error can quickly compound. The longer the row the worse it can get. We set the first panel carefully and then take a length of rail and bolt it across the other end to hold a string line. Pick a reference point, usually the eave edge of the roofing—or any other straight line the eye might automatically compare the row of panels to—and use that as a guide to set your string. If the roofing courses waver you will have a harder time making it look right. Again, space the string off of the panel edge at both ends by a slight amount that is the same as an object you have handy for gauging. I use a strut washer or the thickness of a carpenter’s pencil. If your row starts to deviate you can “steer” the panels gradually back into alignment. You can do this by leaving a gap between panels slightly bigger at the top or bottom to subtly correct for misalignment. The amount of extra space can’t be too much or the mid-clip won’t hold properly. You have about 1/8” to work with at any given gap. You can also subtly “stair-step” the panels up or down—in other words set a panel slightly higher or lower than the previous panel to get back on track. If you see an upper row is higher at one point than the lower row you can stop stacking and adjust your rail up or down on the slotted feet. We set the lower row first and then use disassembled mid-clips to make the spacing up and down pitch the same as across pitch. One other thing: If you are using wider racking like Pro-solar or Snap-n-rack: Make sure the top of the rail is parallel with the roof surface. If the rail is cocked, when you tighten the clamps the panel moves as the rail rotates to contact the panel evenly. This can throw off your alignment. You can check this by setting an extra stick of rail across the tops of your installed rail and looking for gaps. The process is tedious but if you check as you go and don’t let the error get too big the error can be corrected. Jim, I hope this answers your qestion. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Sunday, September 29, 2024 7:55 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Jim Gowdy *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Racking on residential rooftops Hello All, I am trying to develop a good process for solar racking installs on roofs and ground mounts. I would like to be aware of any tricks of the trade. Right now the questions I have are....... - How to find high/low spots on roofs - How to get rails to the same level in all directions - when mounting the solar panels, how to keep a straight line. So far a string line on the top and bottom is helpful. -- Jim with Gowdy Electric Cambria, Ca 93428 business 805 927 2630 cell 805 975 5279 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Oct 3 23:39:25 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2024 21:39:25 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racking on residential rooftops In-Reply-To: <9f18af4c2449953b79155307c3b0beee@mail.gmail.com> References: <9f18af4c2449953b79155307c3b0beee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0235446C-B51A-45FF-9B51-4C246A7E971E@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Oct 4 02:28:20 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2024 23:28:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racking on residential rooftops In-Reply-To: <0235446C-B51A-45FF-9B51-4C246A7E971E@gmail.com> References: <9f18af4c2449953b79155307c3b0beee@mail.gmail.com> <0235446C-B51A-45FF-9B51-4C246A7E971E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay: Is there a make and model of laser you recommend? I bought a pretty expensive one and it was useless in daylight. The goal is to make the rails parallel, not necessarily straight or level. I’m not sure a laser level is the right tool for this goal. Running a laser line at other than level or plumb was not that easy when I tried it and that seems necessary, so I am looking for hints on your process. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jay via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Thursday, October 3, 2024 8:39 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Jay *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Racking on residential rooftops Hi Jim I recommend a laser level. Can be just a line laser or can be a multi line level. Brightness is key. Much easier, faster and accurate than using string. Also makes it much easier to keep everything straight Jay On Oct 3, 2024, at 7:44 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:  Good question, Jim. We should all want our installations to work good and look good. A lot of this consideration is purely aesthetic. As such, it doesn’t always have to be good, it just has to look good. What I mean by that is if there are some misalignments that can’t be seen from any vantage point, then it is not so critical to spend a lot of time making those perfect. I always look to see what vantage points there are from which a given installation can be seen and focus on making the installation look good to those vantage points. Misaligned panels are only obvious where panel corners and edges meet. Your rack may undulate but as long as the panels meet up evenly that waviness is not readily visible. I don’t spend too much time checking a roof for flat—none of them are. Two adjacent panels bolted to the same pair of rails almost always line up. The bigger problem occurs when you have two or more sets of rails. If the vantage point is from below and the upper set of rails is even slightly higher than the lower set of rails, that protruding upper panel edge can easily be seen. If, however, the upper set of rails is slightly lower, it is less obvious. The key is to run a string line along the view axis to check to see of the pairs of rails are in alignment. Make the string as tight as possible. I space my string off the rail by a set amount—usually the thickness of a strut washer—and take another strut washer and slip it under the string at various locations. The reason to space the string above is to prevent the rail from subtly deflecting the string without you noticing it happening. You can also use a spare stick of rail or any long straight edge. Lining up rows of panels is most critical if the installation can be viewed from the side. If the alignment gets bad at first without correcting it the error can quickly compound. The longer the row the worse it can get. We set the first panel carefully and then take a length of rail and bolt it across the other end to hold a string line. Pick a reference point, usually the eave edge of the roofing—or any other straight line the eye might automatically compare the row of panels to—and use that as a guide to set your string. If the roofing courses waver you will have a harder time making it look right. Again, space the string off of the panel edge at both ends by a slight amount that is the same as an object you have handy for gauging. I use a strut washer or the thickness of a carpenter’s pencil. If your row starts to deviate you can “steer” the panels gradually back into alignment. You can do this by leaving a gap between panels slightly bigger at the top or bottom to subtly correct for misalignment. The amount of extra space can’t be too much or the mid-clip won’t hold properly. You have about 1/8” to work with at any given gap. You can also subtly “stair-step” the panels up or down—in other words set a panel slightly higher or lower than the previous panel to get back on track. If you see an upper row is higher at one point than the lower row you can stop stacking and adjust your rail up or down on the slotted feet. We set the lower row first and then use disassembled mid-clips to make the spacing up and down pitch the same as across pitch. One other thing: If you are using wider racking like Pro-solar or Snap-n-rack: Make sure the top of the rail is parallel with the roof surface. If the rail is cocked, when you tighten the clamps the panel moves as the rail rotates to contact the panel evenly. This can throw off your alignment. You can check this by setting an extra stick of rail across the tops of your installed rail and looking for gaps. The process is tedious but if you check as you go and don’t let the error get too big the error can be corrected. Jim, I hope this answers your qestion. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Sunday, September 29, 2024 7:55 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Jim Gowdy *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Racking on residential rooftops Hello All, I am trying to develop a good process for solar racking installs on roofs and ground mounts. I would like to be aware of any tricks of the trade. Right now the questions I have are....... 1. How to find high/low spots on roofs 2. How to get rails to the same level in all directions 3. when mounting the solar panels, how to keep a straight line. So far a string line on the top and bottom is helpful. -- Jim with Gowdy Electric Cambria, Ca 93428 business 805 927 2630 cell 805 975 5279 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Fri Oct 4 08:15:17 2024 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2024 08:15:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racking on residential rooftops In-Reply-To: References: <9f18af4c2449953b79155307c3b0beee@mail.gmail.com> <0235446C-B51A-45FF-9B51-4C246A7E971E@gmail.com> Message-ID: We also never had luck with a laser, although early on that is something we definitely tried. We use a string line. We keep drops of 2x4 that are cut to the length of our most common panel sizes, and fasten them on to the rails with mid clips. That way we can easily reference where the top and bottom of the row will end up. The installers can choose to run their stringline on the top of the 2x4 or on the bottom (depending on the logistics of that particular row). Its good to double check the string line in reference to the ridge, shingle line or drip line in various places before installing. Then they set the second panel in the row and work their way down. Once the row is complete the 2x4s and string line are dropped, the rails are cut to length (we run them wild originally, and cut them flush at the end) and the first and last panel are installed One of our installers worked for a much larger company at some point, and he said they didn’t use a string at all. Their method was to “keep someone on the ground who just looked at the row and told them if it seemed like it was going straight”. Seems like a disaster waiting to happen to me …but that company has a lot of installs in the area and they look fine. Adam Katzman (he/him) Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator www.AutonomousEnergies.com (518) 567-1468 On Fri, Oct 4, 2024 at 2:44 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jay: > > > > Is there a make and model of laser you recommend? I bought a pretty > expensive one and it was useless in daylight. > > > > The goal is to make the rails parallel, not necessarily straight or > level. I’m not sure a laser level is the right tool for this goal. > > > > Running a laser line at other than level or plumb was not that easy when I > tried it and that seems necessary, so I am looking for hints on your > process. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jay via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Thursday, October 3, 2024 8:39 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jay > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Racking on residential rooftops > > > > Hi Jim > > > > I recommend a laser level. Can be just a line laser or can be a multi line > level. > > Brightness is key. > > > > Much easier, faster and accurate than using string. > > Also makes it much easier to keep everything straight > > > > Jay > > > > > > > > On Oct 3, 2024, at 7:44 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Good question, Jim. > > > > We should all want our installations to work good and look good. > > > > A lot of this consideration is purely aesthetic. As such, it doesn’t > always have to be good, it just has to look good. What I mean by that is if > there are some misalignments that can’t be seen from any vantage point, > then it is not so critical to spend a lot of time making those perfect. I > always look to see what vantage points there are from which a given > installation can be seen and focus on making the installation look good to > those vantage points. > > > > Misaligned panels are only obvious where panel corners and edges meet. > Your rack may undulate but as long as the panels meet up evenly that > waviness is not readily visible. I don’t spend too much time checking a > roof for flat—none of them are. > > > > Two adjacent panels bolted to the same pair of rails almost always line > up. The bigger problem occurs when you have two or more sets of rails. If > the vantage point is from below and the upper set of rails is even slightly > higher than the lower set of rails, that protruding upper panel edge can > easily be seen. If, however, the upper set of rails is slightly lower, it > is less obvious. > > > > The key is to run a string line along the view axis to check to see of the > pairs of rails are in alignment. Make the string as tight as possible. I > space my string off the rail by a set amount—usually the thickness of a > strut washer—and take another strut washer and slip it under the string at > various locations. The reason to space the string above is to prevent the > rail from subtly deflecting the string without you noticing it happening. > You can also use a spare stick of rail or any long straight edge. > > > > Lining up rows of panels is most critical if the installation can be > viewed from the side. If the alignment gets bad at first without > correcting it the error can quickly compound. The longer the row the worse > it can get. > > > > We set the first panel carefully and then take a length of rail and bolt > it across the other end to hold a string line. Pick a reference point, > usually the eave edge of the roofing—or any other straight line the eye > might automatically compare the row of panels to—and use that as a guide to > set your string. If the roofing courses waver you will have a harder time > making it look right. Again, space the string off of the panel edge at > both ends by a slight amount that is the same as an object you have handy > for gauging. I use a strut washer or the thickness of a carpenter’s pencil. > > > > If your row starts to deviate you can “steer” the panels gradually back > into alignment. You can do this by leaving a gap between panels slightly > bigger at the top or bottom to subtly correct for misalignment. The amount > of extra space can’t be too much or the mid-clip won’t hold properly. You > have about 1/8” to work with at any given gap. You can also subtly > “stair-step” the panels up or down—in other words set a panel slightly > higher or lower than the previous panel to get back on track. > > > > If you see an upper row is higher at one point than the lower row you can > stop stacking and adjust your rail up or down on the slotted feet. > > > > We set the lower row first and then use disassembled mid-clips to make the > spacing up and down pitch the same as across pitch. > > > > One other thing: If you are using wider racking like Pro-solar or > Snap-n-rack: Make sure the top of the rail is parallel with the roof > surface. If the rail is cocked, when you tighten the clamps the panel > moves as the rail rotates to contact the panel evenly. This can throw off > your alignment. You can check this by setting an extra stick of rail > across the tops of your installed rail and looking for gaps. > > > > The process is tedious but if you check as you go and don’t let the error > get too big the error can be corrected. > > > > Jim, I hope this answers your qestion. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Sunday, September 29, 2024 7:55 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jim Gowdy > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Racking on residential rooftops > > > > Hello All, > > I am trying to develop a good process for solar racking installs on > roofs and ground mounts. I would like to be aware of any tricks of the > trade. Right now the questions I have are....... > > 1. How to find high/low spots on roofs > 2. How to get rails to the same level in all directions > 3. when mounting the solar panels, how to keep a straight line. So > far a string line on the top and bottom is helpful. > > > > -- > > Jim with Gowdy Electric > > Cambria, Ca 93428 > > business 805 927 2630 > > cell 805 975 5279 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Oct 4 08:53:53 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2024 06:53:53 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racking on residential rooftops In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Fri Oct 4 10:29:38 2024 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2024 10:29:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lead acid batteries taking too much current Message-ID: Hi All, I have inherited and done some work on an off-grid system with a Sol-Ark 8k inverter and now has a new set of 16 Rolls S6 L16-HC batteries (only about a month old). There is only 3.9kw of solar, and there is a 12kw generator. First of all, thanks to Steve for putting out that webinar a little while ago on how to program a Sol-Ark with lead acid batteries! I followed that for the programming of this inverter. Recently, the generator kicked on when it should. But it never turned itself off. I had to go into the battery settings and turn off grid and gen charging to get the generator to turn off. From looking at the monitoring, even once the batteries were full, they were still accepting over 40A of current. A few hours later, the batteries were accepting almost 50A of current. The battery bank has a capacity of 890AH, but based on the FLA recommendations I set the capacity to 70% of that, or 650AH so that it absorbs longer. Based on the Sol-Ark programming, it will run the generator until the batteries are accepting 5% of that, or 32.5A. It seems that since the system never got down to that little amount of current, it never turned off the generator and never stopped charging. I had the customer check the water level and they said it was low, but not below the level of the plates. Does anyone know why the batteries might have been accepting so much current even when fully charged? And in order to get the final amps that the inverter is looking for to turn off the generator, I would need to set the capacity up to about 780AH or about 90% of the rated capacity. Is upping the capacity the recommended action to prevent this from happening in the future? I also have a follow up question. Being that there is not a ton of solar here, the recommendation for a full absorb every few days ends up being about 7 hours of absorb time. I am wondering if there is a way to force the inverter to do an EQ cycle (although we are really just using the EQ function on the inverter to get a full absorb cycle every few days) when we know it will be a sunny day? I would also like to be able to start an EQ cycle and also start the generator to give a good top off. It seems that you can choose the EQ frequency, but you don't know exactly when it will try to EQ. Thanks in advance! Cheers, Dave -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Fri Oct 4 10:35:47 2024 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2024 07:35:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lead acid batteries taking too much current In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dave, I need to give you a call... I need to make a new video with some changes. As for the generator starting but not stopping it's a mix between the battery resistance and the SOC percentages... are you using voltages to start/stop or SOC% I'll give you a call in a few mins to discuss further. On Fri, Oct 4, 2024, 7:30 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi All, > > I have inherited and done some work on an off-grid system with a Sol-Ark > 8k inverter and now has a new set of 16 Rolls S6 L16-HC batteries (only > about a month old). There is only 3.9kw of solar, and there is a 12kw > generator. > > First of all, thanks to Steve for putting out that webinar a little while > ago on how to program a Sol-Ark with lead acid batteries! I followed that > for the programming of this inverter. > > Recently, the generator kicked on when it should. But it never turned > itself off. I had to go into the battery settings and turn off grid and gen > charging to get the generator to turn off. From looking at the monitoring, > even once the batteries were full, they were still accepting over 40A of > current. A few hours later, the batteries were accepting almost 50A of > current. > > The battery bank has a capacity of 890AH, but based on the FLA > recommendations I set the capacity to 70% of that, or 650AH so that it > absorbs longer. Based on the Sol-Ark programming, it will run the generator > until the batteries are accepting 5% of that, or 32.5A. It seems that since > the system never got down to that little amount of current, it never turned > off the generator and never stopped charging. I had the customer check the > water level and they said it was low, but not below the level of the > plates. > > Does anyone know why the batteries might have been accepting so much > current even when fully charged? And in order to get the final amps that > the inverter is looking for to turn off the generator, I would need to set > the capacity up to about 780AH or about 90% of the rated capacity. Is > upping the capacity the recommended action to prevent this from happening > in the future? > > I also have a follow up question. Being that there is not a ton of solar > here, the recommendation for a full absorb every few days ends up being > about 7 hours of absorb time. I am wondering if there is a way to force the > inverter to do an EQ cycle (although we are really just using the EQ > function on the inverter to get a full absorb cycle every few days) when we > know it will be a sunny day? I would also like to be able to start an EQ > cycle and also start the generator to give a good top off. It seems that > you can choose the EQ frequency, but you don't know exactly when it will > try to EQ. > > Thanks in advance! > Cheers, > Dave > -- > > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. > > > | Ithaca, > NY 14850 > > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 270-0370 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Oct 4 11:00:39 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2024 09:00:39 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lead acid batteries taking too much current In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Fri Oct 4 11:11:07 2024 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2024 11:11:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lead acid batteries taking too much current In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Steve, thanks for the call. I am using voltages, rather than SOC to start/stop the generator. I also just reduced the battery resistance to 0 based on your recommendation. Jay, There is a temp sensor. The batteries only got to about 32deg C after 14 hours of charging. I got the 7 hours of absorb time based on the equation capacity*.42/charge current. 890AH*.42/50A = ~7.5 hours (I used 50A rather than 75A, since I figured it would be unlikely that the solar would often be able to sustain 75A for very long) The 5% is not adjustable. I think the adjustment is in the battery capacity. Steve just corrected me on this though, as he mentioned it is actually 2%. Cheers, Dave On Fri, Oct 4, 2024 at 11:01 AM Jay wrote: > Hi Dave > > I bet there is no way to install a temp sensor? > > Question about the 7 hrs absorb time. Where did you come up with that > figure. > > Is the 5% adjustable or the adjustment is in the battery capacity? > > Thx > Jay > > > > On Oct 4, 2024, at 8:30 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Hi All, > > I have inherited and done some work on an off-grid system with a Sol-Ark > 8k inverter and now has a new set of 16 Rolls S6 L16-HC batteries (only > about a month old). There is only 3.9kw of solar, and there is a 12kw > generator. > > First of all, thanks to Steve for putting out that webinar a little while > ago on how to program a Sol-Ark with lead acid batteries! I followed that > for the programming of this inverter. > > Recently, the generator kicked on when it should. But it never turned > itself off. I had to go into the battery settings and turn off grid and gen > charging to get the generator to turn off. From looking at the monitoring, > even once the batteries were full, they were still accepting over 40A of > current. A few hours later, the batteries were accepting almost 50A of > current. > > The battery bank has a capacity of 890AH, but based on the FLA > recommendations I set the capacity to 70% of that, or 650AH so that it > absorbs longer. Based on the Sol-Ark programming, it will run the generator > until the batteries are accepting 5% of that, or 32.5A. It seems that since > the system never got down to that little amount of current, it never turned > off the generator and never stopped charging. I had the customer check the > water level and they said it was low, but not below the level of the > plates. > > Does anyone know why the batteries might have been accepting so much > current even when fully charged? And in order to get the final amps that > the inverter is looking for to turn off the generator, I would need to set > the capacity up to about 780AH or about 90% of the rated capacity. Is > upping the capacity the recommended action to prevent this from happening > in the future? > > I also have a follow up question. Being that there is not a ton of solar > here, the recommendation for a full absorb every few days ends up being > about 7 hours of absorb time. I am wondering if there is a way to force the > inverter to do an EQ cycle (although we are really just using the EQ > function on the inverter to get a full absorb cycle every few days) when we > know it will be a sunny day? I would also like to be able to start an EQ > cycle and also start the generator to give a good top off. It seems that > you can choose the EQ frequency, but you don't know exactly when it will > try to EQ. > > Thanks in advance! > Cheers, > Dave > -- > > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 270-0370 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Fri Oct 4 11:22:07 2024 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2024 08:22:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lead acid batteries taking too much current In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sol Ark is adding an end amps (return amps) timer so you can control when the inverter transitions from absorb to float. The problem now is that it is limited to 2% of the programmed or calculated battery capacity for 10 minutes. Once the new firmware is released, it'll be 2% for up to 4 hours. This does not mean you shouldn't still use the EQ cycles (Programmed to Absorb Voltages and Times) to ensure a full 100% charge. Using only end amps to charge a lead battery of any type is generally a bad idea. End Amp or Return Amp settings were designed to ensure that a fully charged battery didn't get overcharged. Another issue is the battery's internal resistance, which can cause issues with FLA, AGM, or GEL batteries. If the internal resistance is higher than expected, the inverter will slightly increase the battery voltage to increase the current flow. If you are dealing with an already hot battery, this may cause the batteries to overvolt and swell up, especially if they are already hot while undercharge. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Fri, Oct 4, 2024 at 8:11 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Steve, thanks for the call. I am using voltages, rather than SOC to > start/stop the generator. I also just reduced the battery resistance to 0 > based on your recommendation. > > Jay, > There is a temp sensor. The batteries only got to about 32deg C after 14 > hours of charging. > I got the 7 hours of absorb time based on the equation capacity*.42/charge > current. 890AH*.42/50A = ~7.5 hours (I used 50A rather than 75A, since I > figured it would be unlikely that the solar would often be able to sustain > 75A for very long) > The 5% is not adjustable. I think the adjustment is in the battery > capacity. Steve just corrected me on this though, as he mentioned it is > actually 2%. > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Fri, Oct 4, 2024 at 11:01 AM Jay wrote: > >> Hi Dave >> >> I bet there is no way to install a temp sensor? >> >> Question about the 7 hrs absorb time. Where did you come up with that >> figure. >> >> Is the 5% adjustable or the adjustment is in the battery capacity? >> >> Thx >> Jay >> >> >> >> On Oct 4, 2024, at 8:30 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> Hi All, >> >> I have inherited and done some work on an off-grid system with a Sol-Ark >> 8k inverter and now has a new set of 16 Rolls S6 L16-HC batteries (only >> about a month old). There is only 3.9kw of solar, and there is a 12kw >> generator. >> >> First of all, thanks to Steve for putting out that webinar a little while >> ago on how to program a Sol-Ark with lead acid batteries! I followed that >> for the programming of this inverter. >> >> Recently, the generator kicked on when it should. But it never turned >> itself off. I had to go into the battery settings and turn off grid and gen >> charging to get the generator to turn off. From looking at the monitoring, >> even once the batteries were full, they were still accepting over 40A of >> current. A few hours later, the batteries were accepting almost 50A of >> current. >> >> The battery bank has a capacity of 890AH, but based on the FLA >> recommendations I set the capacity to 70% of that, or 650AH so that it >> absorbs longer. Based on the Sol-Ark programming, it will run the generator >> until the batteries are accepting 5% of that, or 32.5A. It seems that since >> the system never got down to that little amount of current, it never turned >> off the generator and never stopped charging. I had the customer check the >> water level and they said it was low, but not below the level of the >> plates. >> >> Does anyone know why the batteries might have been accepting so much >> current even when fully charged? And in order to get the final amps that >> the inverter is looking for to turn off the generator, I would need to set >> the capacity up to about 780AH or about 90% of the rated capacity. Is >> upping the capacity the recommended action to prevent this from happening >> in the future? >> >> I also have a follow up question. Being that there is not a ton of solar >> here, the recommendation for a full absorb every few days ends up being >> about 7 hours of absorb time. I am wondering if there is a way to force the >> inverter to do an EQ cycle (although we are really just using the EQ >> function on the inverter to get a full absorb cycle every few days) when we >> know it will be a sunny day? I would also like to be able to start an EQ >> cycle and also start the generator to give a good top off. It seems that >> you can choose the EQ frequency, but you don't know exactly when it will >> try to EQ. >> >> Thanks in advance! >> Cheers, >> Dave >> -- >> >> [image: Logo] >> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >> Owner | Sungineer Solar >> p: he | him | his >> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> w: www.sungineersolar.com >> c: (607) 270-0370 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at vecoop.ca Fri Oct 4 12:27:38 2024 From: eric at vecoop.ca (Eric Smiley) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2024 09:27:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lead acid batteries taking too much current In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Our company does not pair any lead acid with a Sol-Ark. Our opinion is that the unit is designed for Li-Ion and that is what should be used. In much the same way that some legacy off-grid products don't play nicely with Li-Ion, we stick with combinations that don't require specialized programming work-arounds that aren't in the manufacturer's manual. Interesting aside, I recently had to service a very old Trace DR system which the client had upgraded to Can-Bat Li-Ion. The service call had to do with the generator but I checked the batteries and charging history. It looks like the DR is so dumb it, it works just fine with the BMS keeping an eye on things. Eric Smiley (he/him) - Design Manager 250.703.6004 eric at vecoop.ca 888.386.0116 3-4997 Polkey Rd, Duncan BC, V9L 6W3 viridiansolar.ca Viridian Solar honours the ancestral grounds on which we live and provide services, recognising that these lands are unceded Indigenous territory. We are steadfast in our commitment to reconciliation and acknowledge the rich history and traditions that characterise this land that we all consider home. On Fri, 4 Oct 2024 at 08:22, Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Sol Ark is adding an end amps (return amps) timer so you can control when > the inverter transitions from absorb to float. The problem now is that it > is limited to 2% of the programmed or calculated battery capacity for 10 > minutes. Once the new firmware is released, it'll be 2% for up to 4 hours. > This does not mean you shouldn't still use the EQ cycles (Programmed to > Absorb Voltages and Times) to ensure a full 100% charge. Using only end > amps to charge a lead battery of any type is generally a bad idea. End > Amp or Return Amp settings were designed to ensure that a fully charged > battery didn't get overcharged. > > Another issue is the battery's internal resistance, which can cause issues > with FLA, AGM, or GEL batteries. If the internal resistance is higher > than expected, the inverter will slightly increase the battery voltage to > increase the current flow. If you are dealing with an already hot > battery, this may cause the batteries to overvolt and swell up, especially > if they are already hot while undercharge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager > t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 > f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for > the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged > material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the > taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If > you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or > destroy this message and all copies. > ------------------------------ > > > On Fri, Oct 4, 2024 at 8:11 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Steve, thanks for the call. I am using voltages, rather than SOC to >> start/stop the generator. I also just reduced the battery resistance to 0 >> based on your recommendation. >> >> Jay, >> There is a temp sensor. The batteries only got to about 32deg C after 14 >> hours of charging. >> I got the 7 hours of absorb time based on the equation >> capacity*.42/charge current. 890AH*.42/50A = ~7.5 hours (I used 50A rather >> than 75A, since I figured it would be unlikely that the solar would often >> be able to sustain 75A for very long) >> The 5% is not adjustable. I think the adjustment is in the battery >> capacity. Steve just corrected me on this though, as he mentioned it is >> actually 2%. >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> On Fri, Oct 4, 2024 at 11:01 AM Jay wrote: >> >>> Hi Dave >>> >>> I bet there is no way to install a temp sensor? >>> >>> Question about the 7 hrs absorb time. Where did you come up with that >>> figure. >>> >>> Is the 5% adjustable or the adjustment is in the battery capacity? >>> >>> Thx >>> Jay >>> >>> >>> >>> On Oct 4, 2024, at 8:30 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> Hi All, >>> >>> I have inherited and done some work on an off-grid system with a Sol-Ark >>> 8k inverter and now has a new set of 16 Rolls S6 L16-HC batteries (only >>> about a month old). There is only 3.9kw of solar, and there is a 12kw >>> generator. >>> >>> First of all, thanks to Steve for putting out that webinar a little >>> while ago on how to program a Sol-Ark with lead acid batteries! I followed >>> that for the programming of this inverter. >>> >>> Recently, the generator kicked on when it should. But it never turned >>> itself off. I had to go into the battery settings and turn off grid and gen >>> charging to get the generator to turn off. From looking at the monitoring, >>> even once the batteries were full, they were still accepting over 40A of >>> current. A few hours later, the batteries were accepting almost 50A of >>> current. >>> >>> The battery bank has a capacity of 890AH, but based on the FLA >>> recommendations I set the capacity to 70% of that, or 650AH so that it >>> absorbs longer. Based on the Sol-Ark programming, it will run the generator >>> until the batteries are accepting 5% of that, or 32.5A. It seems that since >>> the system never got down to that little amount of current, it never turned >>> off the generator and never stopped charging. I had the customer check the >>> water level and they said it was low, but not below the level of the >>> plates. >>> >>> Does anyone know why the batteries might have been accepting so much >>> current even when fully charged? And in order to get the final amps that >>> the inverter is looking for to turn off the generator, I would need to set >>> the capacity up to about 780AH or about 90% of the rated capacity. Is >>> upping the capacity the recommended action to prevent this from happening >>> in the future? >>> >>> I also have a follow up question. Being that there is not a ton of solar >>> here, the recommendation for a full absorb every few days ends up being >>> about 7 hours of absorb time. I am wondering if there is a way to force the >>> inverter to do an EQ cycle (although we are really just using the EQ >>> function on the inverter to get a full absorb cycle every few days) when we >>> know it will be a sunny day? I would also like to be able to start an EQ >>> cycle and also start the generator to give a good top off. It seems that >>> you can choose the EQ frequency, but you don't know exactly when it will >>> try to EQ. >>> >>> Thanks in advance! >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> -- >>> >>> [image: Logo] >>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >>> Owner | Sungineer Solar >>> p: he | him | his >>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 >>> w: www.sungineersolar.com >>> c: (607) 270-0370 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Mon Oct 7 09:04:42 2024 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2024 09:04:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lead acid batteries taking too much current In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I thought I would update everyone here about a way to prevent the generator from running too long. It sounds like I am not the only one this has happened to. You can enable Time of Use settings in the System Work Mode menu (at least from the online menus). Enable all days and charge times. It then lets you set a power and voltage (or SOC) limit for charging during these times. Supposedly this will cut the generator off when it reaches this limit, rather than waiting until its own calculated time to stop. Cheers, Dave On Fri, Oct 4, 2024 at 12:29 PM Eric Smiley via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Our company does not pair any lead acid with a Sol-Ark. Our opinion is > that the unit is designed for Li-Ion and that is what should be used. In > much the same way that some legacy off-grid products don't play nicely with > Li-Ion, we stick with combinations that don't require specialized > programming work-arounds that aren't in the manufacturer's manual. > > Interesting aside, I recently had to service a very old Trace DR system > which the client had upgraded to Can-Bat Li-Ion. The service call had to do > with the generator but I checked the batteries and charging history. It > looks like the DR is so dumb it, it works just fine with the BMS keeping an > eye on things. > > Eric Smiley (he/him) - Design Manager > > 250.703.6004 > eric at vecoop.ca > 888.386.0116 > 3-4997 Polkey Rd, Duncan BC, V9L 6W3 > viridiansolar.ca > > > > > Viridian Solar honours the ancestral grounds on which we live and provide > services, recognising that these lands are unceded Indigenous territory. We > are steadfast in our commitment to reconciliation and acknowledge the rich > history and traditions that characterise this land that we all consider > home. > > > > On Fri, 4 Oct 2024 at 08:22, Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Sol Ark is adding an end amps (return amps) timer so you can control when >> the inverter transitions from absorb to float. The problem now is that it >> is limited to 2% of the programmed or calculated battery capacity for 10 >> minutes. Once the new firmware is released, it'll be 2% for up to 4 hours. >> This does not mean you shouldn't still use the EQ cycles (Programmed to >> Absorb Voltages and Times) to ensure a full 100% charge. Using only end >> amps to charge a lead battery of any type is generally a bad idea. End >> Amp or Return Amp settings were designed to ensure that a fully charged >> battery didn't get overcharged. >> >> Another issue is the battery's internal resistance, which can cause >> issues with FLA, AGM, or GEL batteries. If the internal resistance is >> higher than expected, the inverter will slightly increase the battery >> voltage to increase the current flow. If you are dealing with an already >> hot battery, this may cause the batteries to overvolt and swell up, >> especially if they are already hot while undercharge. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager >> t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 >> f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for >> the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged >> material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the >> taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If >> you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or >> destroy this message and all copies. >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> On Fri, Oct 4, 2024 at 8:11 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Steve, thanks for the call. I am using voltages, rather than SOC to >>> start/stop the generator. I also just reduced the battery resistance to 0 >>> based on your recommendation. >>> >>> Jay, >>> There is a temp sensor. The batteries only got to about 32deg C after 14 >>> hours of charging. >>> I got the 7 hours of absorb time based on the equation >>> capacity*.42/charge current. 890AH*.42/50A = ~7.5 hours (I used 50A rather >>> than 75A, since I figured it would be unlikely that the solar would often >>> be able to sustain 75A for very long) >>> The 5% is not adjustable. I think the adjustment is in the battery >>> capacity. Steve just corrected me on this though, as he mentioned it is >>> actually 2%. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> >>> On Fri, Oct 4, 2024 at 11:01 AM Jay wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Dave >>>> >>>> I bet there is no way to install a temp sensor? >>>> >>>> Question about the 7 hrs absorb time. Where did you come up with that >>>> figure. >>>> >>>> Is the 5% adjustable or the adjustment is in the battery capacity? >>>> >>>> Thx >>>> Jay >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Oct 4, 2024, at 8:30 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>  >>>> Hi All, >>>> >>>> I have inherited and done some work on an off-grid system with a >>>> Sol-Ark 8k inverter and now has a new set of 16 Rolls S6 L16-HC batteries >>>> (only about a month old). There is only 3.9kw of solar, and there is a 12kw >>>> generator. >>>> >>>> First of all, thanks to Steve for putting out that webinar a little >>>> while ago on how to program a Sol-Ark with lead acid batteries! I followed >>>> that for the programming of this inverter. >>>> >>>> Recently, the generator kicked on when it should. But it never turned >>>> itself off. I had to go into the battery settings and turn off grid and gen >>>> charging to get the generator to turn off. From looking at the monitoring, >>>> even once the batteries were full, they were still accepting over 40A of >>>> current. A few hours later, the batteries were accepting almost 50A of >>>> current. >>>> >>>> The battery bank has a capacity of 890AH, but based on the FLA >>>> recommendations I set the capacity to 70% of that, or 650AH so that it >>>> absorbs longer. Based on the Sol-Ark programming, it will run the generator >>>> until the batteries are accepting 5% of that, or 32.5A. It seems that since >>>> the system never got down to that little amount of current, it never turned >>>> off the generator and never stopped charging. I had the customer check the >>>> water level and they said it was low, but not below the level of the >>>> plates. >>>> >>>> Does anyone know why the batteries might have been accepting so much >>>> current even when fully charged? And in order to get the final amps that >>>> the inverter is looking for to turn off the generator, I would need to set >>>> the capacity up to about 780AH or about 90% of the rated capacity. Is >>>> upping the capacity the recommended action to prevent this from happening >>>> in the future? >>>> >>>> I also have a follow up question. Being that there is not a ton of >>>> solar here, the recommendation for a full absorb every few days ends up >>>> being about 7 hours of absorb time. I am wondering if there is a way to >>>> force the inverter to do an EQ cycle (although we are really just using the >>>> EQ function on the inverter to get a full absorb cycle every few days) when >>>> we know it will be a sunny day? I would also like to be able to start an EQ >>>> cycle and also start the generator to give a good top off. It seems that >>>> you can choose the EQ frequency, but you don't know exactly when it will >>>> try to EQ. >>>> >>>> Thanks in advance! >>>> Cheers, >>>> Dave >>>> -- >>>> >>>> [image: Logo] >>>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >>>> Owner | Sungineer Solar >>>> p: he | him | his >>>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 >>>> w: www.sungineersolar.com >>>> c: (607) 270-0370 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Jharen.Poole at sol-ark.com Tue Oct 8 11:40:13 2024 From: Jharen.Poole at sol-ark.com (Poole, Jharen) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2024 15:40:13 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lead acid batteries taking too much current In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello All, We are collaborating closely with Steve Higgins to address and resolve any concerns or potential misunderstandings that may arise regarding the use of flooded or deep cycle batteries in conjunction with the Sol-Ark inverter. Additionally, Dave Tedeya is actively engaging with both our Support and Applications teams to ensure that the programmed values in the inverter are set optimally for performance. @Eric Smiley, I welcome the opportunity to have a direct conversation with you to better understand your concerns regarding the use of lead-acid batteries with the Sol-Ark inverter. Please don’t hesitate to reach out to me directly; I would be more than happy to hear your concerns regarding the combination of lead acid batteries with the Sol-Ark inverter. Best Regards, Jharen Poole Applications Engineer II jharen.poole at sol-ark.com 972-575-8875 [cid:4fd376ac-d6ac-4027-8605-41926ba5e344] ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, October 7, 2024 8:04 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Dave Tedeyan Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lead acid batteries taking too much current Caution: This email is from an external source. I thought I would update everyone here about a way to prevent the generator from running too long. It sounds like I am not the only one this has happened to. You can enable Time of Use settings in the System Work Mode menu (at least from the online menus). Enable all days and charge times. It then lets you set a power and voltage (or SOC) limit for charging during these times. Supposedly this will cut the generator off when it reaches this limit, rather than waiting until its own calculated time to stop. Cheers, Dave On Fri, Oct 4, 2024 at 12:29 PM Eric Smiley via RE-wrenches > wrote: Our company does not pair any lead acid with a Sol-Ark. Our opinion is that the unit is designed for Li-Ion and that is what should be used. In much the same way that some legacy off-grid products don't play nicely with Li-Ion, we stick with combinations that don't require specialized programming work-arounds that aren't in the manufacturer's manual. Interesting aside, I recently had to service a very old Trace DR system which the client had upgraded to Can-Bat Li-Ion. The service call had to do with the generator but I checked the batteries and charging history. It looks like the DR is so dumb it, it works just fine with the BMS keeping an eye on things. Eric Smiley (he/him) - Design Manager [https://lh7-us.googleusercontent.com/KNABL0KuANNGSXJJLGUSmUPhH8O50imvnpeg5HDhObKvj65pEAGTz7gFTIdrjhl0PkhvUmzXk3D_f_eYbTNrSMHmM2ApLauFu_8BQ7dU_IRx-0PS3ae8_QIKaIQ9jPrFPtEa3h8igQ43GoqcPLiubT0] 250.703.6004 [https://lh7-us.googleusercontent.com/c7qT2VNnUdWLZGiBI_vIpqpmQPKOKoX9bRQKdImDnVJE2CaaBnCvGoJmpAlTIRQBJ2SicysPTHyeit0JWix1R1CKBqkouI4KIAvra_GKx2njZ182VrYoP5y53if9Lnytup_Bu5cPNC19wZtpV9Y8xWM] eric at vecoop.ca [https://lh7-us.googleusercontent.com/JskDQP__DR8Yitxs_Sq2j-WW2jBHZ9T76rB5UKDnCcsD8ekIbS-EFGqYVAZuWKqnb5zwXvNpV5uq2hQK2855dRLYo5gXxXJYF9gpt0ozhlRtQlYUilC-1g6Ch-zYS9pKbT77nUWVGQGtSzHusQkrGP0] 888.386.0116 [https://lh7-us.googleusercontent.com/Vyd8GU3VdNSoXgNppkrYGXEfZjycpwINgErDT5HFIiWFRFsDrsE1E4Ou_hq82vS6b6Wm144VbMkcFqG03eZKm4cW16wvWP1HIRyyHKwm8tmL89sMue46V14NJtJ5M-UjpYuFCxAAQo6sMO6xnLuKdyw] 3-4997 Polkey Rd, Duncan BC, V9L 6W3 [https://lh7-us.googleusercontent.com/Itmw-rSXeAZnqt2d-AzcEQjK_1IxoftNYQrYD9jHgoZwrif9FPth2S0MW4sboSqKKC287J_lMzgtavYTJcUl3tRMY7Q66sN695kPKUVS4mv25jO3M3z3ktZh7G2o37eI75Tn4cwh6ieQ5QvhExzM6cI] viridiansolar.ca [https://lh7-us.googleusercontent.com/1EARZt3mzWXCvL__6kXPW4QxNRpHZSJpduXmd7wYAAnIsCjmu8-gPQyNMlnkiogWxdQtS3qNFPA4EbE5HlAJHAijpZK3dog4MaAvCfYqTbODU42EO1rAe1P19LfcNkfn0YuhSjBJL1BGHDPLuVe90W8] [https://lh7-us.googleusercontent.com/PLJ5WlaFIeZZYOiqDzfEcyzzCLwa2fOW_9Gs4JxfoUDm2TNH8qKFu7oZ3VyEuVkoa2Ez4QzfUSdlgOdc8vnQ3dq56if83R4XYZRQyiiTTdKOlJ53pW6N0gCSoGVpp8LJFayOHO9zBxODaMqECFMDxLU] Viridian Solar honours the ancestral grounds on which we live and provide services, recognising that these lands are unceded Indigenous territory. We are steadfast in our commitment to reconciliation and acknowledge the rich history and traditions that characterise this land that we all consider home. On Fri, 4 Oct 2024 at 08:22, Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches > wrote: Sol Ark is adding an end amps (return amps) timer so you can control when the inverter transitions from absorb to float. The problem now is that it is limited to 2% of the programmed or calculated battery capacity for 10 minutes. Once the new firmware is released, it'll be 2% for up to 4 hours. This does not mean you shouldn't still use the EQ cycles (Programmed to Absorb Voltages and Times) to ensure a full 100% charge. Using only end amps to charge a lead battery of any type is generally a bad idea. End Amp or Return Amp settings were designed to ensure that a fully charged battery didn't get overcharged. Another issue is the battery's internal resistance, which can cause issues with FLA, AGM, or GEL batteries. If the internal resistance is higher than expected, the inverter will slightly increase the battery voltage to increase the current flow. If you are dealing with an already hot battery, this may cause the batteries to overvolt and swell up, especially if they are already hot while undercharge. [https://i.imgur.com/YIluKhq.png] Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com [http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/facebook_square_gray-24.png][http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/youtube_square_gray-24.png][http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/linkedin_square_gray-24.png][https://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/instagram_square-24.png] ________________________________ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ________________________________ On Fri, Oct 4, 2024 at 8:11 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > wrote: Steve, thanks for the call. I am using voltages, rather than SOC to start/stop the generator. I also just reduced the battery resistance to 0 based on your recommendation. Jay, There is a temp sensor. The batteries only got to about 32deg C after 14 hours of charging. I got the 7 hours of absorb time based on the equation capacity*.42/charge current. 890AH*.42/50A = ~7.5 hours (I used 50A rather than 75A, since I figured it would be unlikely that the solar would often be able to sustain 75A for very long) The 5% is not adjustable. I think the adjustment is in the battery capacity. Steve just corrected me on this though, as he mentioned it is actually 2%. Cheers, Dave On Fri, Oct 4, 2024 at 11:01 AM Jay > wrote: Hi Dave I bet there is no way to install a temp sensor? Question about the 7 hrs absorb time. Where did you come up with that figure. Is the 5% adjustable or the adjustment is in the battery capacity? Thx Jay On Oct 4, 2024, at 8:30 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > wrote:  Hi All, I have inherited and done some work on an off-grid system with a Sol-Ark 8k inverter and now has a new set of 16 Rolls S6 L16-HC batteries (only about a month old). There is only 3.9kw of solar, and there is a 12kw generator. First of all, thanks to Steve for putting out that webinar a little while ago on how to program a Sol-Ark with lead acid batteries! I followed that for the programming of this inverter. Recently, the generator kicked on when it should. But it never turned itself off. I had to go into the battery settings and turn off grid and gen charging to get the generator to turn off. From looking at the monitoring, even once the batteries were full, they were still accepting over 40A of current. A few hours later, the batteries were accepting almost 50A of current. The battery bank has a capacity of 890AH, but based on the FLA recommendations I set the capacity to 70% of that, or 650AH so that it absorbs longer. Based on the Sol-Ark programming, it will run the generator until the batteries are accepting 5% of that, or 32.5A. It seems that since the system never got down to that little amount of current, it never turned off the generator and never stopped charging. I had the customer check the water level and they said it was low, but not below the level of the plates. Does anyone know why the batteries might have been accepting so much current even when fully charged? And in order to get the final amps that the inverter is looking for to turn off the generator, I would need to set the capacity up to about 780AH or about 90% of the rated capacity. Is upping the capacity the recommended action to prevent this from happening in the future? I also have a follow up question. Being that there is not a ton of solar here, the recommendation for a full absorb every few days ends up being about 7 hours of absorb time. I am wondering if there is a way to force the inverter to do an EQ cycle (although we are really just using the EQ function on the inverter to get a full absorb cycle every few days) when we know it will be a sunny day? I would also like to be able to start an EQ cycle and also start the generator to give a good top off. It seems that you can choose the EQ frequency, but you don't know exactly when it will try to EQ. Thanks in advance! Cheers, Dave -- [Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-xlph1l2f.png Type: image/png Size: 4214 bytes Desc: Outlook-xlph1l2f.png URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Oct 8 14:21:26 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2024 11:21:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] VFXR4048 stacked with an FXR3048 Message-ID: I’m in the field with a dead VXR3048. Will the FXR play nice with the VFXR? Which should be Master? Tech support did not answer of course. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Tue Oct 8 14:57:17 2024 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2024 08:57:17 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] UL3741 Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, We are researching UL3741 and NEC2020s Photovoltaic Hazard Control System. Whether it is safe or not is a discussion for another time. After digging around a bunch it does not seem to be really geared toward us residential (grid-tied and off-grid) and small commercial installers. But I wanted to connect with folks who know the landscape better than us before we disregard it for the foreseeable future. UL3741 listed racking systems and solar panels are not the limiting factor, as there are enough manufacturers listed that we use regularly and can get easily. It appears that Midnite's MNSSR-600S-SS may be a good path for us as it has been tested with the Sol-Ark15k but from what I can tell not to UL3741 standards. It seems the short list of compliant inverters with a compliant racking system using Midnite's MNSSR-600S-SS is what would hold us back. As we don't actively use any of the listed inverters. Has anyone heard from inverter manufacturers that are actively working with a racking company on getting UL3741 or if they EVEN want to pursue it (besides Tesla, Solis, SMA, GrowWatt)?Specifically battery based hybrid inverters or charge controllers. I can't seem to find any. Thank you for your input. Aloha, Lou Russo Owner lou at spreesolarsystems.com Office - 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Oct 8 15:19:30 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2024 13:19:30 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] VFXR4048 stacked with an FXR3048 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B1C452B-E13E-4732-A2B9-8B3319BFF444@gmail.com> I have done in the past VFX and FX. I haven not done VFRX snd FXR but it should be ok. newest firmware is master. jay > On Oct 8, 2024, at 12:21 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I’m in the field with a dead VXR3048. Will the FXR play nice with the VFXR? Which should be Master? > > Tech support did not answer of course. > > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Tue Oct 8 15:41:31 2024 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2024 15:41:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] UL3741 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Lou, It looks like Ironridge with the Midnite's MNSSR-600S-SS and some Solis Inverters (or Tesla) are compatible. But that is all I know of off the top of my head. https://www.ironridge.com/2024/02/27/flush-mount-systems-listed-to-ul-3741/ I have not actually pursued this yet, but would be curious to hear if others have and whether they like it. Cheers, Dave On Tue, Oct 8, 2024 at 3:01 PM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > We are researching UL3741 and NEC2020s Photovoltaic Hazard Control > System. Whether it is safe or not is a discussion for another time. > > After digging around a bunch it does not seem to be really geared toward > us residential (grid-tied and off-grid) and small commercial installers. > But I wanted to connect with folks who know the landscape better than us > before we disregard it for the foreseeable future. > > UL3741 listed racking systems and solar panels are not the limiting > factor, as there are enough manufacturers listed that we use regularly and > can get easily. It appears that Midnite's MNSSR-600S-SS may be a good path > for us as it has been tested with the Sol-Ark15k but from what I can tell > not to UL3741 standards. > > It seems the short list of compliant inverters with a compliant racking > system using Midnite's MNSSR-600S-SS is what would hold us back. As we > don't actively use any of the listed inverters. > > Has anyone heard from inverter manufacturers that are actively working > with a racking company on getting UL3741 or if they EVEN want to pursue it > (besides Tesla, Solis, SMA, GrowWatt)?Specifically battery based hybrid > inverters or charge controllers. I can't seem to find any. > > Thank you for your input. > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > Owner > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > Office - 808 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Oct 8 16:24:05 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2024 13:24:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] VFXR4048 stacked with an FXR3048 In-Reply-To: <4B1C452B-E13E-4732-A2B9-8B3319BFF444@gmail.com> References: <4B1C452B-E13E-4732-A2B9-8B3319BFF444@gmail.com> Message-ID: I mis-wrote: it’s a VFX3648 existing and a FXR3048 I’m am adding. It does not work. There is a warning on the screen forbidding the marriage. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Tue, Oct 8, 2024 at 12:19 PM jay wrote: > I have done in the past VFX and FX. > I haven not done VFRX snd FXR but it should be ok. > > newest firmware is master. > > jay > > On Oct 8, 2024, at 12:21 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > I’m in the field with a dead VXR3048. Will the FXR play nice with the > VFXR? Which should be Master? > > Tech support did not answer of course. > > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Tue Oct 8 21:40:19 2024 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (David Palumbo) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2024 01:40:19 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Alternatives to Iota chargers? Message-ID: Wrenches, I've used several Iota charges over the years, now I am struggling with 2 systems in my neighborhood that use Iota Model DLS27-40. It's a decent enough 40A charger for a 24V LA battery bank but it has a big negative quirk for a rental house I'm renovating and about to put on the market. The Iota sometimes (randomly once every few generator charges) will not initiate charging until I disconnect it from the batteries. The OutBack inverter in both systems without fail begin charge cycles but every few times the Iota will need the breaker to the batteries to be cycled off. This happens in two systems, one with a Honda 7000i generator and the other with a Generac 6k Eco-Gen LP gas unit. With my daughter being the tenant in the rental house the past 5 years it was something I could check up on easily but with a new tenant coming in soon I'd rather not have to be entering the house once a week in the winter to reset the Iota. Two questions. 1. Is there a fix for this quirk in the Iota? 2. Is there a viable alternative to Iota in a 30 to 40A charger for LA batteries? I have another system close by that uses an old Magnum inverter/charger MM1524AE only as a secondary charger on that system with great results. It's not used it as an inverter just for charging when the generator is run. Never has given me any problems. If anyone has one of these that they want to sell , please let me know off list. It would replace the Iota nicely. Thanks, Dave Palumbo Hyde Park, VT -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Oct 8 22:53:16 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2024 20:53:16 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Alternatives to Iota chargers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2691058B-5C7C-4133-9AE1-DDAAA02F06CC@gmail.com> Hi David. That is quite odd. I’ve used dozens of iotas over the years and have not seen this issue. Is it a newer on that uses the IQ adapter? For an alternative you can try powermax. I’ve had good luck with those too. Jay > On Oct 8, 2024, at 7:40 PM, David Palumbo via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Wrenches, > > I've used several Iota charges over the years, now I am struggling with 2 systems in my neighborhood that use Iota Model DLS27-40. It's a decent enough 40A charger for a 24V LA battery bank but it has a big negative quirk for a rental house I'm renovating and about to put on the market. > > The Iota sometimes (randomly once every few generator charges) will not initiate charging until I disconnect it from the batteries. The OutBack inverter in both systems without fail begin charge cycles but every few times the Iota will need the breaker to the batteries to be cycled off. This happens in two systems, one with a Honda 7000i generator and the other with a Generac 6k Eco-Gen LP gas unit. > > With my daughter being the tenant in the rental house the past 5 years it was something I could check up on easily but with a new tenant coming in soon I'd rather not have to be entering the house once a week in the winter to reset the Iota. > > Two questions. > Is there a fix for this quirk in the Iota? > Is there a viable alternative to Iota in a 30 to 40A charger for LA batteries? > I have another system close by that uses an old Magnum inverter/charger MM1524AE only as a secondary charger on that system with great results. It's not used it as an inverter just for charging when the generator is run. Never has given me any problems. If anyone has one of these that they want to sell , please let me know off list. It would replace the Iota nicely. > > Thanks, > > Dave Palumbo > Hyde Park, VT > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Tue Oct 8 23:55:09 2024 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2024 20:55:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] UL3741 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is an excellent explanation of many aspects of 3741. https://youtu.be/mgD0O9WfKVU?si=-SRdLuTd4XGDToKp At the NABCEP conference in Raleigh earlier this year, there were popular presentations about 3741. I think it can be a great solution for some small commercial, but not for residential. On Tue, Oct 8, 2024 at 12:41 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Lou, > > It looks like Ironridge with the Midnite's MNSSR-600S-SS and some Solis > Inverters (or Tesla) are compatible. But that is all I know of off the top > of my head. > https://www.ironridge.com/2024/02/27/flush-mount-systems-listed-to-ul-3741/ > > I have not actually pursued this yet, but would be curious to hear if > others have and whether they like it. > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Tue, Oct 8, 2024 at 3:01 PM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> We are researching UL3741 and NEC2020s Photovoltaic Hazard Control >> System. Whether it is safe or not is a discussion for another time. >> >> After digging around a bunch it does not seem to be really geared toward >> us residential (grid-tied and off-grid) and small commercial installers. >> But I wanted to connect with folks who know the landscape better than us >> before we disregard it for the foreseeable future. >> >> UL3741 listed racking systems and solar panels are not the limiting >> factor, as there are enough manufacturers listed that we use regularly and >> can get easily. It appears that Midnite's MNSSR-600S-SS may be a good path >> for us as it has been tested with the Sol-Ark15k but from what I can tell >> not to UL3741 standards. >> >> It seems the short list of compliant inverters with a compliant racking >> system using Midnite's MNSSR-600S-SS is what would hold us back. As we >> don't actively use any of the listed inverters. >> >> Has anyone heard from inverter manufacturers that are actively working >> with a racking company on getting UL3741 or if they EVEN want to pursue it >> (besides Tesla, Solis, SMA, GrowWatt)?Specifically battery based hybrid >> inverters or charge controllers. I can't seem to find any. >> >> Thank you for your input. >> >> Aloha, >> >> Lou Russo >> Owner >> lou at spreesolarsystems.com >> Office - 808 345 6762 >> Spree Solar Systems LLC >> CT-34322 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Wed Oct 9 00:51:51 2024 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2024 18:51:51 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] UL3741 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Derek is great and entertaining and has been on the UL3741 mission for a while now. Mayfield Renewables has a great video (1 hour long), though not as entertaining, that really digs into UL3741 https://youtu.be/FIPZibVbrus?si=LyI6TpLEMiV_8-GO On a side note, Mayfield Renewable is a great outfit to work with for your larger (greater the 100kW) installs. Aloha, Lou Russo Owner lou at spreesolarsystems.com Office - 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 On Tue, Oct 8, 2024 at 5:55 PM david quattro wrote: > This is an excellent explanation of many aspects of 3741. > https://youtu.be/mgD0O9WfKVU?si=-SRdLuTd4XGDToKp > At the NABCEP conference in Raleigh earlier this year, there were > popular presentations about 3741. > I think it can be a great solution for some small commercial, but not > for residential. > > > > On Tue, Oct 8, 2024 at 12:41 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi Lou, >> >> It looks like Ironridge with the Midnite's MNSSR-600S-SS and some Solis >> Inverters (or Tesla) are compatible. But that is all I know of off the top >> of my head. >> >> https://www.ironridge.com/2024/02/27/flush-mount-systems-listed-to-ul-3741/ >> >> I have not actually pursued this yet, but would be curious to hear if >> others have and whether they like it. >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> On Tue, Oct 8, 2024 at 3:01 PM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hello Wrenches, >>> >>> We are researching UL3741 and NEC2020s Photovoltaic Hazard Control >>> System. Whether it is safe or not is a discussion for another time. >>> >>> After digging around a bunch it does not seem to be really geared toward >>> us residential (grid-tied and off-grid) and small commercial installers. >>> But I wanted to connect with folks who know the landscape better than us >>> before we disregard it for the foreseeable future. >>> >>> UL3741 listed racking systems and solar panels are not the limiting >>> factor, as there are enough manufacturers listed that we use regularly and >>> can get easily. It appears that Midnite's MNSSR-600S-SS may be a good path >>> for us as it has been tested with the Sol-Ark15k but from what I can tell >>> not to UL3741 standards. >>> >>> It seems the short list of compliant inverters with a compliant racking >>> system using Midnite's MNSSR-600S-SS is what would hold us back. As we >>> don't actively use any of the listed inverters. >>> >>> Has anyone heard from inverter manufacturers that are actively working >>> with a racking company on getting UL3741 or if they EVEN want to pursue it >>> (besides Tesla, Solis, SMA, GrowWatt)?Specifically battery based hybrid >>> inverters or charge controllers. I can't seem to find any. >>> >>> Thank you for your input. >>> >>> Aloha, >>> >>> Lou Russo >>> Owner >>> lou at spreesolarsystems.com >>> Office - 808 345 6762 >>> Spree Solar Systems LLC >>> CT-34322 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Oct 8 22:53:16 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2024 20:53:16 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Alternatives to Iota chargers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2691058B-5C7C-4133-9AE1-DDAAA02F06CC@gmail.com> Hi David. That is quite odd. I’ve used dozens of iotas over the years and have not seen this issue. Is it a newer on that uses the IQ adapter? For an alternative you can try powermax. I’ve had good luck with those too. Jay > On Oct 8, 2024, at 7:40 PM, David Palumbo via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Wrenches, > > I've used several Iota charges over the years, now I am struggling with 2 systems in my neighborhood that use Iota Model DLS27-40. It's a decent enough 40A charger for a 24V LA battery bank but it has a big negative quirk for a rental house I'm renovating and about to put on the market. > > The Iota sometimes (randomly once every few generator charges) will not initiate charging until I disconnect it from the batteries. The OutBack inverter in both systems without fail begin charge cycles but every few times the Iota will need the breaker to the batteries to be cycled off. This happens in two systems, one with a Honda 7000i generator and the other with a Generac 6k Eco-Gen LP gas unit. > > With my daughter being the tenant in the rental house the past 5 years it was something I could check up on easily but with a new tenant coming in soon I'd rather not have to be entering the house once a week in the winter to reset the Iota. > > Two questions. > Is there a fix for this quirk in the Iota? > Is there a viable alternative to Iota in a 30 to 40A charger for LA batteries? > I have another system close by that uses an old Magnum inverter/charger MM1524AE only as a secondary charger on that system with great results. It's not used it as an inverter just for charging when the generator is run. Never has given me any problems. If anyone has one of these that they want to sell , please let me know off list. It would replace the Iota nicely. > > Thanks, > > Dave Palumbo > Hyde Park, VT > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Oct 9 14:32:02 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2024 12:32:02 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol ark battery Message-ID: <59542FBC-DEC9-4CD8-8FD4-FD4ED63632B8@gmail.com> HI All Wondering what people are using for lithium battery and sol ark? And no, LA is not a option for this system. Outdoor rated would be preferred, heated isn’t needed. thanks in advance jay From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Wed Oct 9 14:38:46 2024 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2024 11:38:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol ark battery In-Reply-To: <59542FBC-DEC9-4CD8-8FD4-FD4ED63632B8@gmail.com> References: <59542FBC-DEC9-4CD8-8FD4-FD4ED63632B8@gmail.com> Message-ID: Discover, Fortress, Simpliphi (briggs and Stratton) Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > On Oct 9, 2024, at 11:32 AM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > HI All > > > Wondering what people are using for lithium battery and sol ark? > > And no, LA is not a option for this system. > > Outdoor rated would be preferred, heated isn’t needed. > > thanks in advance > > jay > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Wed Oct 9 14:50:35 2024 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2024 08:50:35 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol ark battery In-Reply-To: References: <59542FBC-DEC9-4CD8-8FD4-FD4ED63632B8@gmail.com> Message-ID: Discover Rack Mount (you have to buy the outdoor rated enclosure separately) - Software is great and firmware is easily updated, standard rack mount aesthetics (not great looking) when installed without enclosure. HomeGrid (outdoor rated included) - Software is half baked and firmware is a pain to update, looks nice. Besides software we have not had any issues as of yet with either of these batteries. Aloha, Lou Russo Owner lou at spreesolarsystems.com Office - 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 On Wed, Oct 9, 2024 at 8:39 AM MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Discover, Fortress, Simpliphi (briggs and > Stratton) > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > > On Oct 9, 2024, at 11:32 AM, jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > > HI All > > > > > > Wondering what people are using for lithium battery and sol ark? > > > > And no, LA is not a option for this system. > > > > Outdoor rated would be preferred, heated isn’t needed. > > > > thanks in advance > > > > jay > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at greenwired.com Wed Oct 9 14:59:44 2024 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew Perkins) Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2024 11:59:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol ark battery In-Reply-To: <59542FBC-DEC9-4CD8-8FD4-FD4ED63632B8@gmail.com> References: <59542FBC-DEC9-4CD8-8FD4-FD4ED63632B8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <19272a6c132.bf72630b639952.1352097229782128665@greenwired.com> Pytes and HomeGrid have worked flawlessly for us, not the best for OD though. We did put in some of the EG4 Powerpro batteries and they seems to be working good and they are outdoor rated, just kinda lacking on tech support.  Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 http://www.greenwired.com        http://qr.codes/qTa1Mh ---- On Wed, 09 Oct 2024 11:32:02 -0700 jay via RE-wrenches wrote --- HI All Wondering what people are using for lithium battery and sol ark? And no, LA is not a option for this system. Outdoor rated would be preferred, heated isn’t needed. thanks in advance jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: New_logo.png Type: image/png Size: 26518 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: qrcode_115305565_7d41abb3d8a91304ef1c1ceb56edaa4a.png Type: image/png Size: 115110 bytes Desc: not available URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Wed Oct 9 15:49:59 2024 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2024 12:49:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol ark battery In-Reply-To: References: <59542FBC-DEC9-4CD8-8FD4-FD4ED63632B8@gmail.com> Message-ID: I’ve had good experience with Homegrid so far. > > On Oct 9, 2024, at 11:32 AM, jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > > HI All > > > > > > Wondering what people are using for lithium battery and sol ark? > > > > And no, LA is not a option for this system. > > > > Outdoor rated would be preferred, heated isn’t needed. > > > > thanks in advance > > > > jay > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed Oct 9 16:23:39 2024 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2024 20:23:39 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol ark battery In-Reply-To: References: <59542FBC-DEC9-4CD8-8FD4-FD4ED63632B8@gmail.com> Message-ID: 2 - Homegrid both required quite a bit of programming assistance not everyone who answered the phone was knowledgeable enough to get the fixes installed. 2 - Pytes fired up fine no issues. 2 - Solar Edge both required assistance, quick & simple fixes with Tech staff. I have a client who has started off with "I want Tesla batteries" how has Tesla batteries faired on installation? _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: david quattro via RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] sol ark battery Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2024 19:49:59 +0000 Size: 17099 URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Oct 9 16:42:43 2024 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2024 13:42:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol ark battery In-Reply-To: References: <59542FBC-DEC9-4CD8-8FD4-FD4ED63632B8@gmail.com> Message-ID: Team wrenches I have used both blue planet 16/32/48/60/76/92 and so on, along with fortress 18.5, with 100% positive remarks from customers. On Wed, Oct 9, 2024, 1:24 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > 2 – Homegrid both required quite a bit of programming assistance not > everyone who answered the phone was knowledgeable enough to get the fixes > installed. > > 2 – Pytes fired up fine no issues. > > 2 – Solar Edge both required assistance, quick & simple fixes with Tech > staff. > > > > I have a client who has started off with “I want Tesla batteries” how has > Tesla batteries faired on installation? > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! > > C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com > > W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com > > *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: david quattro via RE-wrenches > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: david quattro > Bcc: > Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2024 19:49:59 +0000 > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] sol ark battery > I’ve had good experience with Homegrid so far. > > > > >> > On Oct 9, 2024, at 11:32 AM, jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> > >> > HI All >> > >> > >> > Wondering what people are using for lithium battery and sol ark? >> > >> > And no, LA is not a option for this system. >> > >> > Outdoor rated would be preferred, heated isn’t needed. >> > >> > thanks in advance >> > >> > jay >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Wed Oct 9 16:43:14 2024 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2024 13:43:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol ark battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9F3DD5EA-A22B-4D2D-8EF0-5DE1A9B4DE56@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Oct 9 16:56:55 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2024 16:56:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol ark battery In-Reply-To: <9F3DD5EA-A22B-4D2D-8EF0-5DE1A9B4DE56@gmail.com> References: <9F3DD5EA-A22B-4D2D-8EF0-5DE1A9B4DE56@gmail.com> Message-ID: HomeGrid works great with Sol-Ark. Closed loop comms reports battery SOC from BMS. Parallel stacks install easily. Customer support is competent and patient, in my experience. The best part is the ability to easily add batteries. On Sunday I had a client with two stacks of five batteries each call me in a panic ahead of Hurricane Milton. He wanted more capacity. We had them in stock. On Monday my team added three batteries to each stack on the fly since we couldn't do a roof install that day due to rain. We had it done in about 2 hours, and that included moving the stacks due to a height conflict with a piece of equipment. And now, 48 hours later, I'm looking out my home office window at the trees bent over. A tornado passed close by a few hours ago, debris pelting my windows, and a neighbor lost their lanai ceiling. Too close for comfort! But I have power, at least. :) Wish us luck. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Oct 9, 2024 at 4:44 PM MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We’ve been installing the Tesla power wall 3 and have had zero issues, a > very robust product, downside is no generator support. > > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > On Oct 9, 2024, at 1:24 PM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > 2 – Homegrid both required quite a bit of programming assistance not > everyone who answered the phone was knowledgeable enough to get the fixes > installed. > > 2 – Pytes fired up fine no issues. > > 2 – Solar Edge both required assistance, quick & simple fixes with Tech > staff. > > > > I have a client who has started off with “I want Tesla batteries” how has > Tesla batteries faired on installation? > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! > > C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com > > W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com > > *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Oct 9 16:59:22 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2024 16:59:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racking on residential rooftops In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We tried everything from lasers to string lines over the years. We settled on eyeballing it. We use string lines on very long rows where a small error can have a big impact. One tricky thing is metal roofs with vertical seams. Rarely are the roof sheets perfectly perpendicular to the eave. You have to choose if you are going to follow the roofline or the seams. If the panels are not parallel to the seams, you can really see it from the ground. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Fri, Oct 4, 2024 at 8:54 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > The laser I used isn’t made. And I know it’s a tech that’s changing fast. > Get a laser visible for outdoors. Some are green some red. > And the self leveling ones will give you a level straight line. > > It’s super helpful for keeping the rails straight on 2 planes. Jim asked > about valleys. > And I’ve tripped on too many lines on a roof. > > Doing multiple rails ( roof) with the laser it’s easier/faster for me to > keep them straight than string line. > > Not trying to say other techniques don’t work. It’s just another one that > does work. > > Jay > > > > > > On Oct 4, 2024, at 12:43 AM, William Miller > wrote: > >  > > Jay: > > > > Is there a make and model of laser you recommend? I bought a pretty > expensive one and it was useless in daylight. > > > > The goal is to make the rails parallel, not necessarily straight or > level. I’m not sure a laser level is the right tool for this goal. > > > > Running a laser line at other than level or plumb was not that easy when I > tried it and that seems necessary, so I am looking for hints on your > process. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jay via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Thursday, October 3, 2024 8:39 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jay > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Racking on residential rooftops > > > > Hi Jim > > > > I recommend a laser level. Can be just a line laser or can be a multi line > level. > > Brightness is key. > > > > Much easier, faster and accurate than using string. > > Also makes it much easier to keep everything straight > > > > Jay > > > > > > > > On Oct 3, 2024, at 7:44 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Good question, Jim. > > > > We should all want our installations to work good and look good. > > > > A lot of this consideration is purely aesthetic. As such, it doesn’t > always have to be good, it just has to look good. What I mean by that is if > there are some misalignments that can’t be seen from any vantage point, > then it is not so critical to spend a lot of time making those perfect. I > always look to see what vantage points there are from which a given > installation can be seen and focus on making the installation look good to > those vantage points. > > > > Misaligned panels are only obvious where panel corners and edges meet. > Your rack may undulate but as long as the panels meet up evenly that > waviness is not readily visible. I don’t spend too much time checking a > roof for flat—none of them are. > > > > Two adjacent panels bolted to the same pair of rails almost always line > up. The bigger problem occurs when you have two or more sets of rails. If > the vantage point is from below and the upper set of rails is even slightly > higher than the lower set of rails, that protruding upper panel edge can > easily be seen. If, however, the upper set of rails is slightly lower, it > is less obvious. > > > > The key is to run a string line along the view axis to check to see of the > pairs of rails are in alignment. Make the string as tight as possible. I > space my string off the rail by a set amount—usually the thickness of a > strut washer—and take another strut washer and slip it under the string at > various locations. The reason to space the string above is to prevent the > rail from subtly deflecting the string without you noticing it happening. > You can also use a spare stick of rail or any long straight edge. > > > > Lining up rows of panels is most critical if the installation can be > viewed from the side. If the alignment gets bad at first without > correcting it the error can quickly compound. The longer the row the worse > it can get. > > > > We set the first panel carefully and then take a length of rail and bolt > it across the other end to hold a string line. Pick a reference point, > usually the eave edge of the roofing—or any other straight line the eye > might automatically compare the row of panels to—and use that as a guide to > set your string. If the roofing courses waver you will have a harder time > making it look right. Again, space the string off of the panel edge at > both ends by a slight amount that is the same as an object you have handy > for gauging. I use a strut washer or the thickness of a carpenter’s pencil. > > > > If your row starts to deviate you can “steer” the panels gradually back > into alignment. You can do this by leaving a gap between panels slightly > bigger at the top or bottom to subtly correct for misalignment. The amount > of extra space can’t be too much or the mid-clip won’t hold properly. You > have about 1/8” to work with at any given gap. You can also subtly > “stair-step” the panels up or down—in other words set a panel slightly > higher or lower than the previous panel to get back on track. > > > > If you see an upper row is higher at one point than the lower row you can > stop stacking and adjust your rail up or down on the slotted feet. > > > > We set the lower row first and then use disassembled mid-clips to make the > spacing up and down pitch the same as across pitch. > > > > One other thing: If you are using wider racking like Pro-solar or > Snap-n-rack: Make sure the top of the rail is parallel with the roof > surface. If the rail is cocked, when you tighten the clamps the panel > moves as the rail rotates to contact the panel evenly. This can throw off > your alignment. You can check this by setting an extra stick of rail > across the tops of your installed rail and looking for gaps. > > > > The process is tedious but if you check as you go and don’t let the error > get too big the error can be corrected. > > > > Jim, I hope this answers your qestion. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Sunday, September 29, 2024 7:55 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jim Gowdy > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Racking on residential rooftops > > > > Hello All, > > I am trying to develop a good process for solar racking installs on > roofs and ground mounts. I would like to be aware of any tricks of the > trade. Right now the questions I have are....... > > 1. How to find high/low spots on roofs > 2. How to get rails to the same level in all directions > 3. when mounting the solar panels, how to keep a straight line. So > far a string line on the top and bottom is helpful. > > > > -- > > Jim with Gowdy Electric > > Cambria, Ca 93428 > > business 805 927 2630 > > cell 805 975 5279 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Wed Oct 9 17:18:32 2024 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2024 17:18:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Help on something strange Message-ID: <005301db1a90$cb7c37d0$6274a770$@mindspring.com> Afternoon wrenchers. Have something I have never seen. Visited a prospect last week who has a larger system that was installed wrong. We are looking at fixing it. One of the issues, the customer was told to buy and install a Kohler 6VSG 48 Volt DC generator. The original installer ran the DC outputs into the AC inputs of the inverters. Needless to say, application does not work. It was mentioned to me that these DC Gensets need a "Buffer " between the gen and the battery bank. Have reached out to Kohler, no clue, Kohlers top resellers, no clue. Off grid resellers in our industry, no clue. Anybody here have a clue and the proper way to run / use this generator to safely charge the large battery bank. Any and all help greatly appreciated. Thx Peter Giroux American Solar & Alternative Energy Solutions inc Beautiful Norcross Ga -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Wed Oct 9 17:27:06 2024 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2024 14:27:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Help on something strange In-Reply-To: <005301db1a90$cb7c37d0$6274a770$@mindspring.com> References: <005301db1a90$cb7c37d0$6274a770$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <86E1CFC5-AD33-4993-B342-550B0E3ACCD5@gmail.com> I’ve never done one but a quick Google search and it looks like the output of this generator connects directly to the battery bank and probably self monitors and charges when necessary. Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > On Oct 9, 2024, at 2:20 PM, Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Afternoon wrenchers. > > Have something I have never seen. Visited a prospect last week who has a larger system that was installed wrong. We are looking at fixing it. One of the issues, the customer was told to buy and install a Kohler 6VSG 48 Volt DC generator. The original installer ran the DC outputs into the AC inputs of the inverters. Needless to say, application does not work. It was mentioned to me that these DC Gensets need a “Buffer “ between the gen and the battery bank. > > Have reached out to Kohler, no clue, Kohlers top resellers, no clue. Off grid resellers in our industry, no clue. Anybody here have a clue and the proper way to run / use this generator to safely charge the large battery bank. > > Any and all help greatly appreciated. > > Thx > Peter Giroux > American Solar & Alternative Energy Solutions inc > Beautiful Norcross Ga > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Wed Oct 9 17:28:24 2024 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2024 14:28:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Help on something strange In-Reply-To: <005301db1a90$cb7c37d0$6274a770$@mindspring.com> References: <005301db1a90$cb7c37d0$6274a770$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <12476D7B-A626-43B5-BFAE-EDF8685CA055@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 6VSG_1__32737__84013.1698439606.386.513.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 14387 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Wed Oct 9 17:47:13 2024 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2024 15:47:13 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Help on something strange In-Reply-To: <005301db1a90$cb7c37d0$6274a770$@mindspring.com> References: <005301db1a90$cb7c37d0$6274a770$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <7D958A34-7D9F-4F6C-9D75-D63A6686873D@gmail.com> Hi Peter, These DC gensets are typically set up for backup use in telecom applications. I have not worked with the Kohler DC line, but I have worked with Polar equipment. Polar makes a line of DC generators that are considerably more sophisticated and those units are typically connected directly to the DC battery bank, with the genset controller managing battery charging. Charge parameters- absorb, float and start and stop voltages and timers all being user adjustable through a PC-based interface.. The Kohler 6VSG controller does not seem to be as sophisticated or have as much flexibility, but the intent is to have the genset direct- connected to the storage bank and have the genset controller manage battery charging with a programmable start voltage for autostart and a %load current value or stop voltage to stop the generator. Changing these settings seems to require getting Kohler’s SiteTech software, which may be difficult if you’re not a Kohler Service dealer. I think if you were to comfortably use this generator for a modern RE system you would need to find a way to have a third party device monitor battery voltage (and hopefully also charge current) and manage gen start and stop commands through the 2-wire start interface. Perhaps a Midnite Classic controller using their gen start function? Maybe a legacy Magnum AGS device? Others on the forum will probably have good suggestions. Luke Christy Renewable energy consultant NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO 81144 719.588.3044 sgsrenewables at gmail.com > On Oct 9, 2024, at 3:18 PM, Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Afternoon wrenchers. > > Have something I have never seen. Visited a prospect last week who has a larger system that was installed wrong. We are looking at fixing it. One of the issues, the customer was told to buy and install a Kohler 6VSG 48 Volt DC generator. The original installer ran the DC outputs into the AC inputs of the inverters. Needless to say, application does not work. It was mentioned to me that these DC Gensets need a “Buffer “ between the gen and the battery bank. > > Have reached out to Kohler, no clue, Kohlers top resellers, no clue. Off grid resellers in our industry, no clue. Anybody here have a clue and the proper way to run / use this generator to safely charge the large battery bank. > > Any and all help greatly appreciated. > > Thx > Peter Giroux > American Solar & Alternative Energy Solutions inc > Beautiful Norcross Ga > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Wed Oct 9 18:17:17 2024 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2024 18:17:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Help on something strange In-Reply-To: <7D958A34-7D9F-4F6C-9D75-D63A6686873D@gmail.com> References: <005301db1a90$cb7c37d0$6274a770$@mindspring.com> <7D958A34-7D9F-4F6C-9D75-D63A6686873D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <007601db1a99$008fe3b0$01afab10$@mindspring.com> Luke I agree. Might be best to have it for manual use as customer lives full time on site. That way they can monitor the charge cycle, that is unless they fall asleep. Thx peter From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Luke Christy via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, October 9, 2024 5:47 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Luke Christy Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Help on something strange Hi Peter, These DC gensets are typically set up for backup use in telecom applications. I have not worked with the Kohler DC line, but I have worked with Polar equipment. Polar makes a line of DC generators that are considerably more sophisticated and those units are typically connected directly to the DC battery bank, with the genset controller managing battery charging. Charge parameters- absorb, float and start and stop voltages and timers all being user adjustable through a PC-based interface.. The Kohler 6VSG controller does not seem to be as sophisticated or have as much flexibility, but the intent is to have the genset direct- connected to the storage bank and have the genset controller manage battery charging with a programmable start voltage for autostart and a %load current value or stop voltage to stop the generator. Changing these settings seems to require getting Kohler’s SiteTech software, which may be difficult if you’re not a Kohler Service dealer. I think if you were to comfortably use this generator for a modern RE system you would need to find a way to have a third party device monitor battery voltage (and hopefully also charge current) and manage gen start and stop commands through the 2-wire start interface. Perhaps a Midnite Classic controller using their gen start function? Maybe a legacy Magnum AGS device? Others on the forum will probably have good suggestions. Luke Christy Renewable energy consultant NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO 81144 719.588.3044 sgsrenewables at gmail.com On Oct 9, 2024, at 3:18 PM, Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches > wrote: Afternoon wrenchers. Have something I have never seen. Visited a prospect last week who has a larger system that was installed wrong. We are looking at fixing it. One of the issues, the customer was told to buy and install a Kohler 6VSG 48 Volt DC generator. The original installer ran the DC outputs into the AC inputs of the inverters. Needless to say, application does not work. It was mentioned to me that these DC Gensets need a “Buffer “ between the gen and the battery bank. Have reached out to Kohler, no clue, Kohlers top resellers, no clue. Off grid resellers in our industry, no clue. Anybody here have a clue and the proper way to run / use this generator to safely charge the large battery bank. Any and all help greatly appreciated. Thx Peter Giroux American Solar & Alternative Energy Solutions inc Beautiful Norcross Ga _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Wed Oct 9 19:01:02 2024 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2024 23:01:02 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Help on something strange DC generator Message-ID: Hi Peter, I had to work on a similar situation but was 24VDC 5 kW with a Yanmar diesel engine. It can be controlled via an AGS module and is tied directly to the DC buss, with appropriate wire sizing and over current protections of course. My situation used a Magnum inverter and the standard ME-AGS module controlled gen start/stop - it worked fine, no reason why it can't be automated. I am not sure what the buffer that was suggested is about but don't see what the point is. It's just another DC input to the batteries like PV or wind. The unit I worked on was constant voltage, so it basically did the bulk / absorption but no float means. Also no way to EQ charge the FLA batteries in that site from gen - had to do that from PV. It's not a common configuration, DC gens are quite expensive, but I can appreciate the design intent. No switching between inverter / AC power, so client loads always powered from the inverter. One negative is no way to engage generator bypass for AC direct in event of inverter/battery/etc failure. Kevin Pegg EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. 37471 Hwy 16 E Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2 250-846-9888 Http://www.EnergyAlternatives.ca From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches Sent: October-09-24 2:19 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Cc: pgiroux at mindspring.com; 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] Help on something strange Afternoon wrenchers. Have something I have never seen. Visited a prospect last week who has a larger system that was installed wrong. We are looking at fixing it. One of the issues, the customer was told to buy and install a Kohler 6VSG 48 Volt DC generator. The original installer ran the DC outputs into the AC inputs of the inverters. Needless to say, application does not work. It was mentioned to me that these DC Gensets need a "Buffer " between the gen and the battery bank. Have reached out to Kohler, no clue, Kohlers top resellers, no clue. Off grid resellers in our industry, no clue. Anybody here have a clue and the proper way to run / use this generator to safely charge the large battery bank. Any and all help greatly appreciated. Thx Peter Giroux American Solar & Alternative Energy Solutions inc Beautiful Norcross Ga -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Oct 9 19:29:20 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2024 17:29:20 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol ark battery In-Reply-To: References: <9F3DD5EA-A22B-4D2D-8EF0-5DE1A9B4DE56@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7DCC0293-99D3-4B0C-B9D2-B742B515BA5F@gmail.com> Thats all super helpful, appreciate the advice everyone. I’ve not used the sol ark 15 and just wanted to make sure I wasn’t missing anything about battery options. And specifically the ones that don’t seem to play well. Jay > On Oct 9, 2024, at 2:56 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > HomeGrid works great with Sol-Ark. Closed loop comms reports battery SOC from BMS. Parallel stacks install easily. Customer support is competent and patient, in my experience. > > The best part is the ability to easily add batteries. On Sunday I had a client with two stacks of five batteries each call me in a panic ahead of Hurricane Milton. He wanted more capacity. We had them in stock. On Monday my team added three batteries to each stack on the fly since we couldn't do a roof install that day due to rain. We had it done in about 2 hours, and that included moving the stacks due to a height conflict with a piece of equipment. > > And now, 48 hours later, I'm looking out my home office window at the trees bent over. A tornado passed close by a few hours ago, debris pelting my windows, and a neighbor lost their lanai ceiling. Too close for comfort! But I have power, at least. :) > > Wish us luck. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2024 at 4:44 PM MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches > wrote: > We’ve been installing the Tesla power wall 3 and have had zero issues, a very robust product, downside is no generator support. > > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > >> On Oct 9, 2024, at 1:24 PM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> >>  >> 2 – Homegrid both required quite a bit of programming assistance not everyone who answered the phone was knowledgeable enough to get the fixes installed. >> >> 2 – Pytes fired up fine no issues. >> >> 2 – Solar Edge both required assistance, quick & simple fixes with Tech staff. >> >> >> >> I have a client who has started off with “I want Tesla batteries” how has Tesla batteries faired on installation? >> >> >> >> _________________________________________________________ >> >> Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! >> >> C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com >> W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com >> “Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!” >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at greenwired.com Wed Oct 9 19:32:29 2024 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew Perkins) Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2024 16:32:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol ark battery In-Reply-To: <7DCC0293-99D3-4B0C-B9D2-B742B515BA5F@gmail.com> References: <9F3DD5EA-A22B-4D2D-8EF0-5DE1A9B4DE56@gmail.com> <7DCC0293-99D3-4B0C-B9D2-B742B515BA5F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <19273a078f4.ba3e28da711512.416217455884279993@greenwired.com> Dont forget the Sol-Ark 15K Busbar kit. Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 http://www.greenwired.com        http://qr.codes/qTa1Mh ---- On Wed, 09 Oct 2024 16:29:20 -0700 jay via RE-wrenches wrote --- Thats all super helpful, appreciate the advice everyone.  I’ve not used the sol ark 15 and just wanted to make sure I wasn’t missing anything about battery options. And specifically the ones that don’t seem to play well. Jay On Oct 9, 2024, at 2:56 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: HomeGrid works great with Sol-Ark. Closed loop comms reports battery SOC from BMS. Parallel stacks install easily. Customer support is competent and patient, in my experience. The best part is the ability to easily add batteries. On Sunday I had a client with two stacks of five batteries each call me in a panic ahead of Hurricane Milton. He wanted more capacity. We had them in stock. On Monday my team added three batteries to each stack on the fly since we couldn't do a roof install that day due to rain. We had it done in about 2 hours, and that included moving the stacks due to a height conflict with a piece of equipment. And now, 48 hours later, I'm looking out my home office window at the trees bent over. A tornado passed close by a few hours ago, debris pelting my windows, and a neighbor lost their lanai ceiling. Too close for comfort! But I have power, at least. :) Wish us luck. Jason SzumlanskiPrincipal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Oct 9, 2024 at 4:44 PM MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches wrote: We’ve been installing the Tesla power wall 3 and have had zero issues, a very robust product, downside is no generator support. Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office http://www.mdelectricsolar.com/ http://www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar On Oct 9, 2024, at 1:24 PM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches wrote:  2 – Homegrid both required quite a bit of programming assistance not everyone who answered the phone was knowledgeable enough to get the fixes installed. 2 – Pytes fired up fine no issues. 2 – Solar Edge both required assistance, quick & simple fixes with Tech staff.   I have a client who has started off with “I want Tesla batteries” how has Tesla batteries faired on installation?   _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel                GREAT SOLAR WORKS!                       C – 208.721.7003      E – mailto:dana at solarwork.com W - www. http://greatsolarworks.com/     http://www.solarwork.com/ “Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”   _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org/ List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org/ List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: New_logo.png Type: image/png Size: 26518 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: qrcode_115305565_7d41abb3d8a91304ef1c1ceb56edaa4a.png Type: image/png Size: 115110 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Oct 9 19:38:22 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2024 19:38:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol ark battery In-Reply-To: <7DCC0293-99D3-4B0C-B9D2-B742B515BA5F@gmail.com> References: <9F3DD5EA-A22B-4D2D-8EF0-5DE1A9B4DE56@gmail.com> <7DCC0293-99D3-4B0C-B9D2-B742B515BA5F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, I should mention I have a couple of customers with big EG4 LifePower battery banks (i.e. 120kWh+, 80kWh, etc) and Sol-Arks. The clients purchased the batteries directly, so I didn't have a choice. I will say that the systems are performing flawlessly, but forget about closed loop comms and SOC management. Everything is voltage based, which is suboptimal. But we're making it work. The Sol-Ark app still reports their version of SOC, which is handy for clients, but charge setpoints are done with voltage. Signature Solar has provided pretty good support, but I didn't need much help. I strongly suggest the Communication Hub to get SOC data from the battery BMSs. It's pretty handy and very easy to install. With that said, I don't sell EG4 and don't necessarily recommend it, but to be fair, I haven't had any problems and the capacity claims seem legitimate. The value proposition can't be ignored. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Wed, Oct 9, 2024, 7:29 PM jay wrote: > Thats all super helpful, appreciate the advice everyone. > > I’ve not used the sol ark 15 and just wanted to make sure I wasn’t missing > anything about battery options. > > And specifically the ones that don’t seem to play well. > > Jay > > > > > > On Oct 9, 2024, at 2:56 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > HomeGrid works great with Sol-Ark. Closed loop comms reports battery SOC > from BMS. Parallel stacks install easily. Customer support is competent and > patient, in my experience. > > The best part is the ability to easily add batteries. On Sunday I had a > client with two stacks of five batteries each call me in a panic ahead of > Hurricane Milton. He wanted more capacity. We had them in stock. On Monday > my team added three batteries to each stack on the fly since we couldn't do > a roof install that day due to rain. We had it done in about 2 hours, and > that included moving the stacks due to a height conflict with a piece of > equipment. > > And now, 48 hours later, I'm looking out my home office window at the > trees bent over. A tornado passed close by a few hours ago, debris pelting > my windows, and a neighbor lost their lanai ceiling. Too close for comfort! > But I have power, at least. :) > > Wish us luck. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2024 at 4:44 PM MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> We’ve been installing the Tesla power wall 3 and have had zero issues, a >> very robust product, downside is no generator support. >> >> Michael D Nelson >> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >> 707-684-0064 mobile >> 707-884-1862 office >> www.mdelectricsolar.com >> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >> >> >> On Oct 9, 2024, at 1:24 PM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> >> 2 – Homegrid both required quite a bit of programming assistance not >> everyone who answered the phone was knowledgeable enough to get the fixes >> installed. >> >> 2 – Pytes fired up fine no issues. >> >> 2 – Solar Edge both required assistance, quick & simple fixes with Tech >> staff. >> >> >> >> I have a client who has started off with “I want Tesla batteries” how has >> Tesla batteries faired on installation? >> >> >> >> _________________________________________________________ >> >> Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! >> >> C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com >> >> W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com >> >> *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Wed Oct 9 19:42:28 2024 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2024 19:42:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol ark battery In-Reply-To: References: <9F3DD5EA-A22B-4D2D-8EF0-5DE1A9B4DE56@gmail.com> <7DCC0293-99D3-4B0C-B9D2-B742B515BA5F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Question for all you Homegrid installers…has anyone found a succinct way to run conduit from the battery enclosure to the Sol Ark? On Wed, Oct 9, 2024 at 7:39 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jay, > > I should mention I have a couple of customers with big EG4 LifePower > battery banks (i.e. 120kWh+, 80kWh, etc) and Sol-Arks. The clients > purchased the batteries directly, so I didn't have a choice. I will say > that the systems are performing flawlessly, but forget about closed loop > comms and SOC management. Everything is voltage based, which is suboptimal. > But we're making it work. The Sol-Ark app still reports their version of > SOC, which is handy for clients, but charge setpoints are done with > voltage. > > Signature Solar has provided pretty good support, but I didn't need much > help. > > I strongly suggest the Communication Hub to get SOC data from the battery > BMSs. It's pretty handy and very easy to install. > > With that said, I don't sell EG4 and don't necessarily recommend it, but > to be fair, I haven't had any problems and the capacity claims seem > legitimate. The value proposition can't be ignored. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2024, 7:29 PM jay wrote: > >> Thats all super helpful, appreciate the advice everyone. >> >> I’ve not used the sol ark 15 and just wanted to make sure I wasn’t >> missing anything about battery options. >> >> And specifically the ones that don’t seem to play well. >> >> Jay >> >> >> >> >> >> On Oct 9, 2024, at 2:56 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> HomeGrid works great with Sol-Ark. Closed loop comms reports battery SOC >> from BMS. Parallel stacks install easily. Customer support is competent and >> patient, in my experience. >> >> The best part is the ability to easily add batteries. On Sunday I had a >> client with two stacks of five batteries each call me in a panic ahead of >> Hurricane Milton. He wanted more capacity. We had them in stock. On Monday >> my team added three batteries to each stack on the fly since we couldn't do >> a roof install that day due to rain. We had it done in about 2 hours, and >> that included moving the stacks due to a height conflict with a piece of >> equipment. >> >> And now, 48 hours later, I'm looking out my home office window at the >> trees bent over. A tornado passed close by a few hours ago, debris pelting >> my windows, and a neighbor lost their lanai ceiling. Too close for comfort! >> But I have power, at least. :) >> >> Wish us luck. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 9, 2024 at 4:44 PM MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> We’ve been installing the Tesla power wall 3 and have had zero issues, a >>> very robust product, downside is no generator support. >>> >>> Michael D Nelson >>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>> 707-684-0064 mobile >>> 707-884-1862 office >>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>> >>> >>> On Oct 9, 2024, at 1:24 PM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> >>> 2 – Homegrid both required quite a bit of programming assistance not >>> everyone who answered the phone was knowledgeable enough to get the fixes >>> installed. >>> >>> 2 – Pytes fired up fine no issues. >>> >>> 2 – Solar Edge both required assistance, quick & simple fixes with Tech >>> staff. >>> >>> >>> >>> I have a client who has started off with “I want Tesla batteries” how >>> has Tesla batteries faired on installation? >>> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________________________ >>> >>> Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! >>> >>> C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com >>> >>> W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com >>> >>> *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Oct 9 19:51:58 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2024 19:51:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol ark battery In-Reply-To: References: <9F3DD5EA-A22B-4D2D-8EF0-5DE1A9B4DE56@gmail.com> <7DCC0293-99D3-4B0C-B9D2-B742B515BA5F@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm watching for responses with interest. Great question. We usually put a Jbox very close to the battery and use two glands to bring the cables in. I have a situation right now with a HomeGrid stack that has temporary cables run to it, and I need to protect the cables over a 10 foot run to the inverter. I guess one design improvement would be putting the BMS on the bottom so you can add batteries easier, but as I mentioned previously, it's not all that hard. Jason On Wed, Oct 9, 2024, 7:42 PM Chris Sparadeo wrote: > Question for all you Homegrid installers…has anyone found a succinct way > to run conduit from the battery enclosure to the Sol Ark? > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2024 at 7:39 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Jay, >> >> I should mention I have a couple of customers with big EG4 LifePower >> battery banks (i.e. 120kWh+, 80kWh, etc) and Sol-Arks. The clients >> purchased the batteries directly, so I didn't have a choice. I will say >> that the systems are performing flawlessly, but forget about closed loop >> comms and SOC management. Everything is voltage based, which is suboptimal. >> But we're making it work. The Sol-Ark app still reports their version of >> SOC, which is handy for clients, but charge setpoints are done with >> voltage. >> >> Signature Solar has provided pretty good support, but I didn't need much >> help. >> >> I strongly suggest the Communication Hub to get SOC data from the battery >> BMSs. It's pretty handy and very easy to install. >> >> With that said, I don't sell EG4 and don't necessarily recommend it, but >> to be fair, I haven't had any problems and the capacity claims seem >> legitimate. The value proposition can't be ignored. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> On Wed, Oct 9, 2024, 7:29 PM jay wrote: >> >>> Thats all super helpful, appreciate the advice everyone. >>> >>> I’ve not used the sol ark 15 and just wanted to make sure I wasn’t >>> missing anything about battery options. >>> >>> And specifically the ones that don’t seem to play well. >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Oct 9, 2024, at 2:56 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> HomeGrid works great with Sol-Ark. Closed loop comms reports battery SOC >>> from BMS. Parallel stacks install easily. Customer support is competent and >>> patient, in my experience. >>> >>> The best part is the ability to easily add batteries. On Sunday I had a >>> client with two stacks of five batteries each call me in a panic ahead of >>> Hurricane Milton. He wanted more capacity. We had them in stock. On Monday >>> my team added three batteries to each stack on the fly since we couldn't do >>> a roof install that day due to rain. We had it done in about 2 hours, and >>> that included moving the stacks due to a height conflict with a piece of >>> equipment. >>> >>> And now, 48 hours later, I'm looking out my home office window at the >>> trees bent over. A tornado passed close by a few hours ago, debris pelting >>> my windows, and a neighbor lost their lanai ceiling. Too close for comfort! >>> But I have power, at least. :) >>> >>> Wish us luck. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 9, 2024 at 4:44 PM MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> We’ve been installing the Tesla power wall 3 and have had zero issues, >>>> a very robust product, downside is no generator support. >>>> >>>> Michael D Nelson >>>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>>> 707-684-0064 mobile >>>> 707-884-1862 office >>>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>>> >>>> >>>> On Oct 9, 2024, at 1:24 PM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>  >>>> >>>> 2 – Homegrid both required quite a bit of programming assistance not >>>> everyone who answered the phone was knowledgeable enough to get the fixes >>>> installed. >>>> >>>> 2 – Pytes fired up fine no issues. >>>> >>>> 2 – Solar Edge both required assistance, quick & simple fixes with Tech >>>> staff. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I have a client who has started off with “I want Tesla batteries” how >>>> has Tesla batteries faired on installation? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _________________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! >>>> >>>> C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com >>>> >>>> W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com >>>> >>>> *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Oct 9 20:05:00 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2024 18:05:00 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol ark battery In-Reply-To: <19273a078f4.ba3e28da711512.416217455884279993@greenwired.com> References: <19273a078f4.ba3e28da711512.416217455884279993@greenwired.com> Message-ID: <54A106DF-748C-48E3-8E65-7A11EE6C2629@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Oct 9 20:12:43 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2024 18:12:43 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol ark battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Oct 9 20:26:48 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2024 20:26:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol ark battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: To clarify, there IS closed loop comms between Sol-Ark and EG4, but the problem is the batteries mess up settings in the Sol-Ark that can cause erratic behavior. Sol-Ark recommends against implementing closed loop. It could plausibly work in some simple scenarios. But I don't physically connect it at all. The nice thing about HomeGrid is it seems to simply feed it's SOC to Sol-Ark so the inverter can do it's thing. When you have EG4 and Sol-Ark open loop, just like other batteries, Sol-Ark requires several charge and discharge cycles to get SOC "accurate." In comparing the EG4 Communication Hub to the Sol-Ark SOC at any given state of discharge, the Sol-Ark seems to be pretty close, but only if the batteries regularly reach 100% charge. I wish EG4 would just feed SOC info to the Sol-Ark and not cause it to change other parameters. Otherwise, it seems to be a good pairing. Jason On Wed, Oct 9, 2024, 8:12 PM Jay wrote: > Good to know they don’t closed loop communicate, definitely preferably but > not that big a deal in the end. > So is the sol ark building a SOC or reading the battery SOC but it’s not > able to use it for charging algorithm? > > I probably have either what I’ve sold or advised 200 x 5 kWh blocks or > some version. Their marketing is so good it’s hard to push people away. > > No real issues. > > > They do seem to be confused on how to recalibrate their BMS which I really > can’t figure out why they are. Weird. > > > > But their tech support is quick and I can get through in seconds or > minutes. > > If they ever pull off their Outback power redux? > > Jay > > > > > > > > On Oct 9, 2024, at 5:38 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >  > Jay, > > I should mention I have a couple of customers with big EG4 LifePower > battery banks (i.e. 120kWh+, 80kWh, etc) and Sol-Arks. The clients > purchased the batteries directly, so I didn't have a choice. I will say > that the systems are performing flawlessly, but forget about closed loop > comms and SOC management. Everything is voltage based, which is suboptimal. > But we're making it work. The Sol-Ark app still reports their version of > SOC, which is handy for clients, but charge setpoints are done with > voltage. > > Signature Solar has provided pretty good support, but I didn't need much > help. > > I strongly suggest the Communication Hub to get SOC data from the battery > BMSs. It's pretty handy and very easy to install. > > With that said, I don't sell EG4 and don't necessarily recommend it, but > to be fair, I haven't had any problems and the capacity claims seem > legitimate. The value proposition can't be ignored. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2024, 7:29 PM jay wrote: > >> Thats all super helpful, appreciate the advice everyone. >> >> I’ve not used the sol ark 15 and just wanted to make sure I wasn’t >> missing anything about battery options. >> >> And specifically the ones that don’t seem to play well. >> >> Jay >> >> >> >> >> >> On Oct 9, 2024, at 2:56 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> HomeGrid works great with Sol-Ark. Closed loop comms reports battery SOC >> from BMS. Parallel stacks install easily. Customer support is competent and >> patient, in my experience. >> >> The best part is the ability to easily add batteries. On Sunday I had a >> client with two stacks of five batteries each call me in a panic ahead of >> Hurricane Milton. He wanted more capacity. We had them in stock. On Monday >> my team added three batteries to each stack on the fly since we couldn't do >> a roof install that day due to rain. We had it done in about 2 hours, and >> that included moving the stacks due to a height conflict with a piece of >> equipment. >> >> And now, 48 hours later, I'm looking out my home office window at the >> trees bent over. A tornado passed close by a few hours ago, debris pelting >> my windows, and a neighbor lost their lanai ceiling. Too close for comfort! >> But I have power, at least. :) >> >> Wish us luck. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 9, 2024 at 4:44 PM MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> We’ve been installing the Tesla power wall 3 and have had zero issues, a >>> very robust product, downside is no generator support. >>> >>> Michael D Nelson >>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>> 707-684-0064 mobile >>> 707-884-1862 office >>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>> >>> >>> On Oct 9, 2024, at 1:24 PM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> >>> 2 – Homegrid both required quite a bit of programming assistance not >>> everyone who answered the phone was knowledgeable enough to get the fixes >>> installed. >>> >>> 2 – Pytes fired up fine no issues. >>> >>> 2 – Solar Edge both required assistance, quick & simple fixes with Tech >>> staff. >>> >>> >>> >>> I have a client who has started off with “I want Tesla batteries” how >>> has Tesla batteries faired on installation? >>> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________________________ >>> >>> Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! >>> >>> C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com >>> >>> W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com >>> >>> *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Oct 10 08:51:26 2024 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2024 12:51:26 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol ark battery In-Reply-To: References: <9F3DD5EA-A22B-4D2D-8EF0-5DE1A9B4DE56@gmail.com> <7DCC0293-99D3-4B0C-B9D2-B742B515BA5F@gmail.com> Message-ID: My first question & complaint for the Homegrid battery _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] sol ark battery Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2024 23:42:28 +0000 Size: 41016 URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Oct 10 09:18:28 2024 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2024 07:18:28 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol ark battery In-Reply-To: References: <9F3DD5EA-A22B-4D2D-8EF0-5DE1A9B4DE56@gmail.com> <7DCC0293-99D3-4B0C-B9D2-B742B515BA5F@gmail.com> Message-ID: I like the Homegrid and the Sol-Ark communication seems perfect. However, the conduit entry for a code compliant installation is not logical at all, very awkward if you want it in conduit. Not sure what the intent was for a US installation to be inspected. Also, its a bit unclear how to ground it properly, no mention in the installation manual that I've seen. In addition, the Wifi app for Android isn't available on the Play Store and they sent me a link to a place to download an app that didn't work at all probably due to security issues. Very nice stacking and quite attractive. I also like the 15 lithium cell, lower voltage parameters. This can work fine with older inverters that can't cut out higher than 48V. Cool battery but they struck out on some of the simple things. On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 6:52 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > My first question & complaint for the Homegrid battery > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! > > C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com > > W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com > > *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarwks at cybermesa.com Thu Oct 10 11:58:31 2024 From: solarwks at cybermesa.com (Carl Hansen) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2024 09:58:31 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol ark battery In-Reply-To: References: <9F3DD5EA-A22B-4D2D-8EF0-5DE1A9B4DE56@gmail.com> <7DCC0293-99D3-4B0C-B9D2-B742B515BA5F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4261ea8e-ec11-4a72-863e-a15259191e53@cybermesa.com> I've put in about Ten EG4 LL banks in the last 2 years, no problems with any of them, tech support is very good, they have a dedicated number for installers and someone always picks up, I like the digital screen with access to battery cell voltages, cell temps, amps, battery voltage and %.  Their racks with integral bus bars running vertically on either side make installation really quick and easy, battery cables come with every battery for use in their racks. On a few installs I've put them in existing insulated battery box's with EG4's permission with the screen facing up and I add my own bus bars to the inside of the box.  They also have fire suppression pads inside them that are designed to melt down over the top of the internal components in the event of a serious thermal problem. Their dealer price point isn't good as compared to what they sell them for on their website, all my customers ask for these batteries and know what they cost on the website. The last time I complained to them about their dealer price point, they discounted them more and gave me free shipping.  Carl Hansen  Hansen&Sun Electric On 2024-10-10 7:18 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: > I like the Homegrid and the Sol-Ark communication seems perfect. > > However, the conduit entry for a code compliant installation is not > logical at all, very awkward if you want it in conduit.  Not sure what > the intent was for a US installation to be inspected.  Also, its a bit > unclear how to ground it properly, no mention in the installation > manual that I've seen.  In addition, the Wifi app for Android isn't > available on the Play Store and they sent me a link to a place to > download an app that didn't work at all probably due to security issues. > > Very nice stacking and quite attractive. > > I also like the 15 lithium cell, lower voltage parameters. This can > work fine with older inverters that can't cut out higher than 48V. > > Cool battery but they struck out on some of the simple things. > > > > On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 6:52 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > My first question & complaint for the Homegrid battery > > _________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! > > C – 208.721.7003      E – dana at solarwork.com > > > W - www. greatsolarworks.com > www.solarwork.com > > /_“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”_/ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > * > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Thu Oct 10 12:27:50 2024 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2024 09:27:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol ark battery In-Reply-To: <59542FBC-DEC9-4CD8-8FD4-FD4ED63632B8@gmail.com> References: <59542FBC-DEC9-4CD8-8FD4-FD4ED63632B8@gmail.com> Message-ID: Definitely appears that Midnite's new Powerflo batteries would be applicable as well since it supports the Pylon protocol. Appears to be a true game changer but have not received my first shipment yet for a full review. Nick On Wed, Oct 9, 2024 at 11:32 AM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > HI All > > > Wondering what people are using for lithium battery and sol ark? > > And no, LA is not a option for this system. > > Outdoor rated would be preferred, heated isn’t needed. > > thanks in advance > > jay > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Oct 10 14:21:19 2024 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2024 14:21:19 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol ark battery In-Reply-To: References: <59542FBC-DEC9-4CD8-8FD4-FD4ED63632B8@gmail.com> Message-ID: Installed my first production model Midnite AIO with 2 PowerFlo 16 batteries, off grid. Still learning to finess the program structure, but the integration was plug and play and flawless. No internet at site yet and the internet monitoring app isn't released yet for general use, but the Bluetooth app works well and is fairly clear. The batteries are Pylon compliant and are said to be totally compatible with Sol-Ark, though I haven't tried it yet. 2 more systems going in soon. Howie On Thu, Oct 10, 2024, 12:29 PM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Definitely appears that Midnite's new Powerflo batteries would be > applicable as well since it supports the Pylon protocol. Appears to be a > true game changer but have not received my first shipment yet for a full > review. > > Nick > > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2024 at 11:32 AM jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> HI All >> >> >> Wondering what people are using for lithium battery and sol ark? >> >> And no, LA is not a option for this system. >> >> Outdoor rated would be preferred, heated isn’t needed. >> >> thanks in advance >> >> jay >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Thu Oct 10 15:11:30 2024 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2024 12:11:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol ark battery In-Reply-To: References: <59542FBC-DEC9-4CD8-8FD4-FD4ED63632B8@gmail.com> Message-ID: Wonderful to hear Howie. I have high hopes for many projects with Powerflo's. Hard to believe we can finally offer a battery solution with so many positive attributes by a trusted partner like Midnite for just $.25 a watt hour on the retail level. Discover has been saying it for a bit on some of their marketing materials but I finally now feel that lead is nearly dead for the majority of our installations. Nick On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 11:22 AM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Installed my first production model Midnite AIO with 2 PowerFlo 16 > batteries, off grid. Still learning to finess the program structure, but > the integration was plug and play and flawless. No internet at site yet and > the internet monitoring app isn't released yet for general use, but the > Bluetooth app works well and is fairly clear. The batteries are Pylon > compliant and are said to be totally compatible with Sol-Ark, though I > haven't tried it yet. 2 more systems going in soon. > Howie > > On Thu, Oct 10, 2024, 12:29 PM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Definitely appears that Midnite's new Powerflo batteries would be >> applicable as well since it supports the Pylon protocol. Appears to be a >> true game changer but have not received my first shipment yet for a full >> review. >> >> Nick >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 9, 2024 at 11:32 AM jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> HI All >>> >>> >>> Wondering what people are using for lithium battery and sol ark? >>> >>> And no, LA is not a option for this system. >>> >>> Outdoor rated would be preferred, heated isn’t needed. >>> >>> thanks in advance >>> >>> jay >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Thu Oct 10 15:33:05 2024 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2024 12:33:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol ark battery In-Reply-To: References: <59542FBC-DEC9-4CD8-8FD4-FD4ED63632B8@gmail.com> Message-ID: Just installed an AIO/Pflo16. The build quality and attention to detail make Sol-Ark look like what I've always considered them to be, CCC. Had one glitch and Rick and Logan were there for me immediately. There's nothing like talking to an engineer that designed their gear. We'll be installing a few more of these in GT/BB and OG contexts and one larger three phase BB system in the next month or so. I have a really good feeling about this inverter and battery pairing. On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 12:11 PM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wonderful to hear Howie. I have high hopes for many projects with > Powerflo's. Hard to believe we can finally offer a battery solution with so > many positive attributes by a trusted partner like Midnite for just $.25 a > watt hour on the retail level. Discover has been saying it for a bit on > some of their marketing materials but I finally now feel that lead is > nearly dead for the majority of our installations. > > Nick > > > On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 11:22 AM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Installed my first production model Midnite AIO with 2 PowerFlo 16 >> batteries, off grid. Still learning to finess the program structure, but >> the integration was plug and play and flawless. No internet at site yet and >> the internet monitoring app isn't released yet for general use, but the >> Bluetooth app works well and is fairly clear. The batteries are Pylon >> compliant and are said to be totally compatible with Sol-Ark, though I >> haven't tried it yet. 2 more systems going in soon. >> Howie >> >> On Thu, Oct 10, 2024, 12:29 PM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Definitely appears that Midnite's new Powerflo batteries would be >>> applicable as well since it supports the Pylon protocol. Appears to be a >>> true game changer but have not received my first shipment yet for a full >>> review. >>> >>> Nick >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 9, 2024 at 11:32 AM jay via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> HI All >>>> >>>> >>>> Wondering what people are using for lithium battery and sol ark? >>>> >>>> And no, LA is not a option for this system. >>>> >>>> Outdoor rated would be preferred, heated isn’t needed. >>>> >>>> thanks in advance >>>> >>>> jay >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Oct 10 16:16:26 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2024 14:16:26 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol ark battery In-Reply-To: References: <59542FBC-DEC9-4CD8-8FD4-FD4ED63632B8@gmail.com> Message-ID: HI Michael, Thats good news. Can you monitor the individual battery cells volts/temp from the app or inverter? I can’t get an answer on that one. jay > On Oct 10, 2024, at 1:33 PM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Just installed an AIO/Pflo16. The build quality and attention to detail make Sol-Ark look like what I've always considered them to be, CCC. Had one glitch and Rick and Logan were there for me immediately. There's nothing like talking to an engineer that designed their gear. We'll be installing a few more of these in GT/BB and OG contexts and one larger three phase BB system in the next month or so. I have a really good feeling about this inverter and battery pairing. > > On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 12:11 PM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Wonderful to hear Howie. I have high hopes for many projects with Powerflo's. Hard to believe we can finally offer a battery solution with so many positive attributes by a trusted partner like Midnite for just $.25 a watt hour on the retail level. Discover has been saying it for a bit on some of their marketing materials but I finally now feel that lead is nearly dead for the majority of our installations. > > Nick > > > On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 11:22 AM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Installed my first production model Midnite AIO with 2 PowerFlo 16 batteries, off grid. Still learning to finess the program structure, but the integration was plug and play and flawless. No internet at site yet and the internet monitoring app isn't released yet for general use, but the Bluetooth app works well and is fairly clear. The batteries are Pylon compliant and are said to be totally compatible with Sol-Ark, though I haven't tried it yet. 2 more systems going in soon. > Howie > > On Thu, Oct 10, 2024, 12:29 PM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Definitely appears that Midnite's new Powerflo batteries would be applicable as well since it supports the Pylon protocol. Appears to be a true game changer but have not received my first shipment yet for a full review. > > Nick > > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2024 at 11:32 AM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > HI All > > > Wondering what people are using for lithium battery and sol ark? > > And no, LA is not a option for this system. > > Outdoor rated would be preferred, heated isn’t needed. > > thanks in advance > > jay > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > Morningstar Electric Inc > PO Box 1494 > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > 530-921-0560 > CSLB 1116835 > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu Oct 10 16:19:04 2024 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2024 16:19:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol ark battery In-Reply-To: References: <59542FBC-DEC9-4CD8-8FD4-FD4ED63632B8@gmail.com> Message-ID: Also, does anyone know the warranty period for those Powerflo batteries? I see a number of cycles specified, but not a number of years. Cheers, Dave On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 4:17 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > HI Michael, > > Thats good news. > > Can you monitor the individual battery cells volts/temp from the app or > inverter? I can’t get an answer on that one. > > jay > > On Oct 10, 2024, at 1:33 PM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Just installed an AIO/Pflo16. The build quality and attention to detail > make Sol-Ark look like what I've always considered them to be, CCC. Had one > glitch and Rick and Logan were there for me immediately. There's nothing > like talking to an engineer that designed their gear. We'll be installing a > few more of these in GT/BB and OG contexts and one larger three phase BB > system in the next month or so. I have a really good feeling about this > inverter and battery pairing. > > On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 12:11 PM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Wonderful to hear Howie. I have high hopes for many projects with >> Powerflo's. Hard to believe we can finally offer a battery solution with so >> many positive attributes by a trusted partner like Midnite for just $.25 a >> watt hour on the retail level. Discover has been saying it for a bit on >> some of their marketing materials but I finally now feel that lead is >> nearly dead for the majority of our installations. >> >> Nick >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 11:22 AM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Installed my first production model Midnite AIO with 2 PowerFlo 16 >>> batteries, off grid. Still learning to finess the program structure, but >>> the integration was plug and play and flawless. No internet at site yet and >>> the internet monitoring app isn't released yet for general use, but the >>> Bluetooth app works well and is fairly clear. The batteries are Pylon >>> compliant and are said to be totally compatible with Sol-Ark, though I >>> haven't tried it yet. 2 more systems going in soon. >>> Howie >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 10, 2024, 12:29 PM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Definitely appears that Midnite's new Powerflo batteries would be >>>> applicable as well since it supports the Pylon protocol. Appears to be a >>>> true game changer but have not received my first shipment yet for a full >>>> review. >>>> >>>> Nick >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Oct 9, 2024 at 11:32 AM jay via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> HI All >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Wondering what people are using for lithium battery and sol ark? >>>>> >>>>> And no, LA is not a option for this system. >>>>> >>>>> Outdoor rated would be preferred, heated isn’t needed. >>>>> >>>>> thanks in advance >>>>> >>>>> jay >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > Michael Morningstar > > Morningstar Electric Inc > PO Box 1494 > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > 530-921-0560 > CSLB 1116835 > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Jharen.Poole at sol-ark.com Thu Oct 10 16:19:48 2024 From: Jharen.Poole at sol-ark.com (Poole, Jharen) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2024 20:19:48 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol ark battery In-Reply-To: References: <59542FBC-DEC9-4CD8-8FD4-FD4ED63632B8@gmail.com> Message-ID: The Sol-Ark inverter is battery agnostic, allowing you to use lithium batteries with open loop communication. If you prefer to use a battery with closed loop communication, you can refer to the list below that have a handful of some battery manufacturers we fully support in closed loop communication. For a full list you can refer to our battery partners page on our website that list batteries we fully support in closed loop communications. These batteries have been tested and approved to ensure compatibility and meet our functionality standards with the Sol-Ark inverter. We continue to work with battery vendors, that are approved and also not approved. While use of non-approved batteries may not, by itself, void Sol-Ark’s standard limited warranty, because of significant operational and functional issues that have arisen with non-approved battery vendors, Sol-Ark determined that it does not offer technical support for non-approved batteries. As a result, Sol-Ark will not provide technical support for non-approved batteries installed or used with Sol-Ark inverters. Sol-Ark will otherwise continue to offer and provide the industry leading technical and customer support for which it is known. Some of the listed manufacturers offer outdoor rated enclosures to use with their batteries. I recommend reaching out to these manufacturers to see what options may be best for your installation. Renon (will be added to our communications guide soon) Briggs&Stratton Discover Homegrid Pytes Storz Power EndurEnergy Systems Best Regards, Jharen Poole Applications Engineer II 972-575-8875 [cid:ed3b111d-b8f7-4971-9f0b-77261831b08d] ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2024 2:33 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Michael Morningstar Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] sol ark battery Caution: This email is from an external source. Just installed an AIO/Pflo16. The build quality and attention to detail make Sol-Ark look like what I've always considered them to be, CCC. Had one glitch and Rick and Logan were there for me immediately. There's nothing like talking to an engineer that designed their gear. We'll be installing a few more of these in GT/BB and OG contexts and one larger three phase BB system in the next month or so. I have a really good feeling about this inverter and battery pairing. On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 12:11 PM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches > wrote: Wonderful to hear Howie. I have high hopes for many projects with Powerflo's. Hard to believe we can finally offer a battery solution with so many positive attributes by a trusted partner like Midnite for just $.25 a watt hour on the retail level. Discover has been saying it for a bit on some of their marketing materials but I finally now feel that lead is nearly dead for the majority of our installations. Nick On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 11:22 AM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches > wrote: Installed my first production model Midnite AIO with 2 PowerFlo 16 batteries, off grid. Still learning to finess the program structure, but the integration was plug and play and flawless. No internet at site yet and the internet monitoring app isn't released yet for general use, but the Bluetooth app works well and is fairly clear. The batteries are Pylon compliant and are said to be totally compatible with Sol-Ark, though I haven't tried it yet. 2 more systems going in soon. Howie On Thu, Oct 10, 2024, 12:29 PM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches > wrote: Definitely appears that Midnite's new Powerflo batteries would be applicable as well since it supports the Pylon protocol. Appears to be a true game changer but have not received my first shipment yet for a full review. Nick On Wed, Oct 9, 2024 at 11:32 AM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: HI All Wondering what people are using for lithium battery and sol ark? And no, LA is not a option for this system. Outdoor rated would be preferred, heated isn’t needed. thanks in advance jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-xhramle0.png Type: image/png Size: 4214 bytes Desc: Outlook-xhramle0.png URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Oct 10 16:56:21 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2024 16:56:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] All-In-Ones / Sol-Ark fail Message-ID: We have been talking a lot recently about all-in-ones. I just had a massive fail during Hurricane Milton with a quad Sol-Ark 15K off-grid system that deserves some discussion about whether AIO is a good idea if it can't build in some resilience to errors. I'm not sure if the new Midnite unit is better in this respect, but this is what happened to the Sol-Ark system... Four inverters, each with 4 strings of PV paralleled to 2 MPPT per inverter. One of the slave units developed some sort of PV DC fault during the storm. This caused the slave inverter to shut down and throw an error, which in turn caused a parallel fault across all four inverters. Power output ceases at that point. Apparently the system keeps resetting because I have a cell modem that uploads data to Sol-Ark, but that cell modem is powered by the inverter outputs, so it must be getting power at least intermittently. The rest of the loads are basically flatlined according to the Sol-Ark data. It's mostly air conditioners, so they probably can't turn on fast enough before the PV fault causes another shutdown. So, in essence, one of 16 strings of PV develops a fault, and that causes all four inverters to malfunction? What is the point of redundancy if a fault of one results in a fault of all?! If there is a true PV input fault, shouldn't that just shut down that MPPT, or perhaps all of the PV DC input to that inverter? And why can't this inverter continue to invert power from the batteries and charge from a generator when there is a DC input fault that could be programmatically isolated and ignored? This is a bad design in my opinion, and something I hadn't considered. If the faulted inverter can't function with a DC input fault, it should just take itself out of the game. (This is 120/240 split phase, BTW). Is this how all AIO inverters work? One inverter fault on the DC side kills all paralleled units' AC output? Not good. This is a completely off-grid system on a remote island with no vehicle access, so it's not exactly easy to do a "truck roll" on this one, especially post-hurricane. To make matters worse, the generator was running at the time of the fault, as it was being signaled to run because the battery had reached the assigned charge voltage. The fault also killed the 2-wire start signal from the master, so the system also stopped passing through generator power to the loads. The house is dark. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu Oct 10 17:34:43 2024 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2024 17:34:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] All-In-Ones / Sol-Ark fail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yikes! I cannot speak to the AIO's in general. However, I do still always install some sort of inverter bypass in battery based systems. Then in case of a failure like this you can at least continue to power the house off the generator as long as someone is there to throw the switch. Cheers, Dave On Thu, Oct 10, 2024, 4:58 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We have been talking a lot recently about all-in-ones. I just had a > massive fail during Hurricane Milton with a quad Sol-Ark 15K off-grid > system that deserves some discussion about whether AIO is a good idea if it > can't build in some resilience to errors. I'm not sure if the new Midnite > unit is better in this respect, but this is what happened to the Sol-Ark > system... > > Four inverters, each with 4 strings of PV paralleled to 2 MPPT per > inverter. One of the slave units developed some sort of PV DC fault during > the storm. This caused the slave inverter to shut down and throw an error, > which in turn caused a parallel fault across all four inverters. Power > output ceases at that point. Apparently the system keeps resetting because > I have a cell modem that uploads data to Sol-Ark, but that cell modem is > powered by the inverter outputs, so it must be getting power at least > intermittently. The rest of the loads are basically flatlined according to > the Sol-Ark data. It's mostly air conditioners, so they probably can't turn > on fast enough before the PV fault causes another shutdown. > > So, in essence, one of 16 strings of PV develops a fault, and that causes > all four inverters to malfunction? What is the point of redundancy if a > fault of one results in a fault of all?! If there is a true PV input fault, > shouldn't that just shut down that MPPT, or perhaps all of the PV DC input > to that inverter? And why can't this inverter continue to invert power from > the batteries and charge from a generator when there is a DC input fault > that could be programmatically isolated and ignored? > > This is a bad design in my opinion, and something I hadn't considered. If > the faulted inverter can't function with a DC input fault, it should just > take itself out of the game. (This is 120/240 split phase, BTW). Is this > how all AIO inverters work? One inverter fault on the DC side kills all > paralleled units' AC output? Not good. > > This is a completely off-grid system on a remote island with no vehicle > access, so it's not exactly easy to do a "truck roll" on this one, > especially post-hurricane. To make matters worse, the generator was running > at the time of the fault, as it was being signaled to run because the > battery had reached the assigned charge voltage. The fault also killed the > 2-wire start signal from the master, so the system also stopped passing > through generator power to the loads. The house is dark. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Oct 10 17:39:22 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2024 15:39:22 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] All-In-Ones / Sol-Ark fail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Oct 10 17:40:36 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2024 15:40:36 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] All-In-Ones / Sol-Ark fail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason What’s the possibllity it was a lighting strike? Jay > On Oct 10, 2024, at 2:57 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > We have been talking a lot recently about all-in-ones. I just had a massive fail during Hurricane Milton with a quad Sol-Ark 15K off-grid system that deserves some discussion about whether AIO is a good idea if it can't build in some resilience to errors. I'm not sure if the new Midnite unit is better in this respect, but this is what happened to the Sol-Ark system... > > Four inverters, each with 4 strings of PV paralleled to 2 MPPT per inverter. One of the slave units developed some sort of PV DC fault during the storm. This caused the slave inverter to shut down and throw an error, which in turn caused a parallel fault across all four inverters. Power output ceases at that point. Apparently the system keeps resetting because I have a cell modem that uploads data to Sol-Ark, but that cell modem is powered by the inverter outputs, so it must be getting power at least intermittently. The rest of the loads are basically flatlined according to the Sol-Ark data. It's mostly air conditioners, so they probably can't turn on fast enough before the PV fault causes another shutdown. > > So, in essence, one of 16 strings of PV develops a fault, and that causes all four inverters to malfunction? What is the point of redundancy if a fault of one results in a fault of all?! If there is a true PV input fault, shouldn't that just shut down that MPPT, or perhaps all of the PV DC input to that inverter? And why can't this inverter continue to invert power from the batteries and charge from a generator when there is a DC input fault that could be programmatically isolated and ignored? > > This is a bad design in my opinion, and something I hadn't considered. If the faulted inverter can't function with a DC input fault, it should just take itself out of the game. (This is 120/240 split phase, BTW). Is this how all AIO inverters work? One inverter fault on the DC side kills all paralleled units' AC output? Not good. > > This is a completely off-grid system on a remote island with no vehicle access, so it's not exactly easy to do a "truck roll" on this one, especially post-hurricane. To make matters worse, the generator was running at the time of the fault, as it was being signaled to run because the battery had reached the assigned charge voltage. The fault also killed the 2-wire start signal from the master, so the system also stopped passing through generator power to the loads. The house is dark. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Oct 10 17:44:26 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2024 17:44:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] All-In-Ones / Sol-Ark fail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think it's more likely water in a J-box or possibly physical damage, but someone passed by the property and did not observe any physical damage to the array. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 5:41 PM Jay wrote: > Jason > What’s the possibllity it was a lighting strike? > > Jay > > On Oct 10, 2024, at 2:57 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > We have been talking a lot recently about all-in-ones. I just had a > massive fail during Hurricane Milton with a quad Sol-Ark 15K off-grid > system that deserves some discussion about whether AIO is a good idea if it > can't build in some resilience to errors. I'm not sure if the new Midnite > unit is better in this respect, but this is what happened to the Sol-Ark > system... > > Four inverters, each with 4 strings of PV paralleled to 2 MPPT per > inverter. One of the slave units developed some sort of PV DC fault during > the storm. This caused the slave inverter to shut down and throw an error, > which in turn caused a parallel fault across all four inverters. Power > output ceases at that point. Apparently the system keeps resetting because > I have a cell modem that uploads data to Sol-Ark, but that cell modem is > powered by the inverter outputs, so it must be getting power at least > intermittently. The rest of the loads are basically flatlined according to > the Sol-Ark data. It's mostly air conditioners, so they probably can't turn > on fast enough before the PV fault causes another shutdown. > > So, in essence, one of 16 strings of PV develops a fault, and that causes > all four inverters to malfunction? What is the point of redundancy if a > fault of one results in a fault of all?! If there is a true PV input fault, > shouldn't that just shut down that MPPT, or perhaps all of the PV DC input > to that inverter? And why can't this inverter continue to invert power from > the batteries and charge from a generator when there is a DC input fault > that could be programmatically isolated and ignored? > > This is a bad design in my opinion, and something I hadn't considered. If > the faulted inverter can't function with a DC input fault, it should just > take itself out of the game. (This is 120/240 split phase, BTW). Is this > how all AIO inverters work? One inverter fault on the DC side kills all > paralleled units' AC output? Not good. > > This is a completely off-grid system on a remote island with no vehicle > access, so it's not exactly easy to do a "truck roll" on this one, > especially post-hurricane. To make matters worse, the generator was running > at the time of the fault, as it was being signaled to run because the > battery had reached the assigned charge voltage. The fault also killed the > 2-wire start signal from the master, so the system also stopped passing > through generator power to the loads. The house is dark. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Oct 10 17:48:16 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2024 17:48:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] All-In-Ones / Sol-Ark fail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I absolutely have a 400A bypass switch here. In fact, there is also a 200A DPDT switch that allows you to select between two generators! If someone was able to be there during or after the storm, we could have gotten the power back on, for sure. I think the inverters would even pass through power without flipping the switch. I was apprehensive to use the Gen Force function remotely with nobody there, especially because I might not be able to turn it off if connectivity is lost. Tomorrow will probably be our earliest possibility of getting out there, but there is a lot of debris in the water, so it's risky. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 5:35 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Yikes! I cannot speak to the AIO's in general. > However, I do still always install some sort of inverter bypass in battery > based systems. Then in case of a failure like this you can at least > continue to power the house off the generator as long as someone is there > to throw the switch. > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Thu, Oct 10, 2024, 4:58 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> We have been talking a lot recently about all-in-ones. I just had a >> massive fail during Hurricane Milton with a quad Sol-Ark 15K off-grid >> system that deserves some discussion about whether AIO is a good idea if it >> can't build in some resilience to errors. I'm not sure if the new Midnite >> unit is better in this respect, but this is what happened to the Sol-Ark >> system... >> >> Four inverters, each with 4 strings of PV paralleled to 2 MPPT per >> inverter. One of the slave units developed some sort of PV DC fault during >> the storm. This caused the slave inverter to shut down and throw an error, >> which in turn caused a parallel fault across all four inverters. Power >> output ceases at that point. Apparently the system keeps resetting because >> I have a cell modem that uploads data to Sol-Ark, but that cell modem is >> powered by the inverter outputs, so it must be getting power at least >> intermittently. The rest of the loads are basically flatlined according to >> the Sol-Ark data. It's mostly air conditioners, so they probably can't turn >> on fast enough before the PV fault causes another shutdown. >> >> So, in essence, one of 16 strings of PV develops a fault, and that causes >> all four inverters to malfunction? What is the point of redundancy if a >> fault of one results in a fault of all?! If there is a true PV input fault, >> shouldn't that just shut down that MPPT, or perhaps all of the PV DC input >> to that inverter? And why can't this inverter continue to invert power from >> the batteries and charge from a generator when there is a DC input fault >> that could be programmatically isolated and ignored? >> >> This is a bad design in my opinion, and something I hadn't considered. If >> the faulted inverter can't function with a DC input fault, it should just >> take itself out of the game. (This is 120/240 split phase, BTW). Is this >> how all AIO inverters work? One inverter fault on the DC side kills all >> paralleled units' AC output? Not good. >> >> This is a completely off-grid system on a remote island with no vehicle >> access, so it's not exactly easy to do a "truck roll" on this one, >> especially post-hurricane. To make matters worse, the generator was running >> at the time of the fault, as it was being signaled to run because the >> battery had reached the assigned charge voltage. The fault also killed the >> 2-wire start signal from the master, so the system also stopped passing >> through generator power to the loads. The house is dark. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Thu Oct 10 17:59:22 2024 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2024 11:59:22 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] All-In-Ones / Sol-Ark fail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Aloha All, Thank you Jason. This is a huge and surprising issue. So much so that I dropped what I was doing and called Sol-Ark to confirm. Mind you this was level 1 support, but I was told this is what the Sol-Arks are supposed to do and it is a feature not a bug. Their take is if there is any fault on any one string, the Sol-Ark assumes the worst and shuts everything down. I wonder what solutions could be implemented on future installs to prevent this from happening? Aloha, Lou Russo Owner lou at spreesolarsystems.com Office - 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 11:45 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I think it's more likely water in a J-box or possibly physical damage, but > someone passed by the property and did not observe any physical damage to > the array. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 5:41 PM Jay wrote: > >> Jason >> What’s the possibllity it was a lighting strike? >> >> Jay >> >> On Oct 10, 2024, at 2:57 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> We have been talking a lot recently about all-in-ones. I just had a >> massive fail during Hurricane Milton with a quad Sol-Ark 15K off-grid >> system that deserves some discussion about whether AIO is a good idea if it >> can't build in some resilience to errors. I'm not sure if the new Midnite >> unit is better in this respect, but this is what happened to the Sol-Ark >> system... >> >> Four inverters, each with 4 strings of PV paralleled to 2 MPPT per >> inverter. One of the slave units developed some sort of PV DC fault during >> the storm. This caused the slave inverter to shut down and throw an error, >> which in turn caused a parallel fault across all four inverters. Power >> output ceases at that point. Apparently the system keeps resetting because >> I have a cell modem that uploads data to Sol-Ark, but that cell modem is >> powered by the inverter outputs, so it must be getting power at least >> intermittently. The rest of the loads are basically flatlined according to >> the Sol-Ark data. It's mostly air conditioners, so they probably can't turn >> on fast enough before the PV fault causes another shutdown. >> >> So, in essence, one of 16 strings of PV develops a fault, and that causes >> all four inverters to malfunction? What is the point of redundancy if a >> fault of one results in a fault of all?! If there is a true PV input fault, >> shouldn't that just shut down that MPPT, or perhaps all of the PV DC input >> to that inverter? And why can't this inverter continue to invert power from >> the batteries and charge from a generator when there is a DC input fault >> that could be programmatically isolated and ignored? >> >> This is a bad design in my opinion, and something I hadn't considered. If >> the faulted inverter can't function with a DC input fault, it should just >> take itself out of the game. (This is 120/240 split phase, BTW). Is this >> how all AIO inverters work? One inverter fault on the DC side kills all >> paralleled units' AC output? Not good. >> >> This is a completely off-grid system on a remote island with no vehicle >> access, so it's not exactly easy to do a "truck roll" on this one, >> especially post-hurricane. To make matters worse, the generator was running >> at the time of the fault, as it was being signaled to run because the >> battery had reached the assigned charge voltage. The fault also killed the >> 2-wire start signal from the master, so the system also stopped passing >> through generator power to the loads. The house is dark. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at vecoop.ca Thu Oct 10 18:02:34 2024 From: eric at vecoop.ca (Eric Smiley) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2024 15:02:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] All-In-Ones / Sol-Ark fail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Install stand-alone charge controllers. That is the only way to get redundancy. Eric Smiley (he/him) - Design Manager 250.703.6004 eric at vecoop.ca 888.386.0116 3-4997 Polkey Rd, Duncan BC, V9L 6W3 viridiansolar.ca Viridian Solar honours the ancestral grounds on which we live and provide services, recognising that these lands are unceded Indigenous territory. We are steadfast in our commitment to reconciliation and acknowledge the rich history and traditions that characterise this land that we all consider home. On Thu, 10 Oct 2024 at 14:59, Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Aloha All, > > Thank you Jason. This is a huge and surprising issue. So much so that I > dropped what I was doing and called Sol-Ark to confirm. Mind you this was > level 1 support, but I was told this is what the Sol-Arks are supposed to > do and it is a feature not a bug. Their take is if there is any fault on > any one string, the Sol-Ark assumes the worst and shuts everything down. > > I wonder what solutions could be implemented on future installs to prevent > this from happening? > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > Owner > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > Office - 808 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > > > On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 11:45 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I think it's more likely water in a J-box or possibly physical damage, >> but someone passed by the property and did not observe any physical damage >> to the array. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 5:41 PM Jay wrote: >> >>> Jason >>> What’s the possibllity it was a lighting strike? >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> On Oct 10, 2024, at 2:57 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> We have been talking a lot recently about all-in-ones. I just had a >>> massive fail during Hurricane Milton with a quad Sol-Ark 15K off-grid >>> system that deserves some discussion about whether AIO is a good idea if it >>> can't build in some resilience to errors. I'm not sure if the new Midnite >>> unit is better in this respect, but this is what happened to the Sol-Ark >>> system... >>> >>> Four inverters, each with 4 strings of PV paralleled to 2 MPPT per >>> inverter. One of the slave units developed some sort of PV DC fault during >>> the storm. This caused the slave inverter to shut down and throw an error, >>> which in turn caused a parallel fault across all four inverters. Power >>> output ceases at that point. Apparently the system keeps resetting because >>> I have a cell modem that uploads data to Sol-Ark, but that cell modem is >>> powered by the inverter outputs, so it must be getting power at least >>> intermittently. The rest of the loads are basically flatlined according to >>> the Sol-Ark data. It's mostly air conditioners, so they probably can't turn >>> on fast enough before the PV fault causes another shutdown. >>> >>> So, in essence, one of 16 strings of PV develops a fault, and that >>> causes all four inverters to malfunction? What is the point of redundancy >>> if a fault of one results in a fault of all?! If there is a true PV input >>> fault, shouldn't that just shut down that MPPT, or perhaps all of the PV DC >>> input to that inverter? And why can't this inverter continue to invert >>> power from the batteries and charge from a generator when there is a DC >>> input fault that could be programmatically isolated and ignored? >>> >>> This is a bad design in my opinion, and something I hadn't considered. >>> If the faulted inverter can't function with a DC input fault, it should >>> just take itself out of the game. (This is 120/240 split phase, BTW). Is >>> this how all AIO inverters work? One inverter fault on the DC side kills >>> all paralleled units' AC output? Not good. >>> >>> This is a completely off-grid system on a remote island with no vehicle >>> access, so it's not exactly easy to do a "truck roll" on this one, >>> especially post-hurricane. To make matters worse, the generator was running >>> at the time of the fault, as it was being signaled to run because the >>> battery had reached the assigned charge voltage. The fault also killed the >>> 2-wire start signal from the master, so the system also stopped passing >>> through generator power to the loads. The house is dark. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Oct 10 19:17:15 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2024 17:17:15 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] All-In-Ones / Sol-Ark fail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7D25E210-5A0A-4948-BA0F-34034FEFF72C@gmail.com> Seems like this is a firmware setting and should be adjustable. If lo > On Oct 10, 2024, at 3:59 PM, Lou Russo via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Aloha All, > > Thank you Jason. This is a huge and surprising issue. So much so that I dropped what I was doing and called Sol-Ark to confirm. Mind you this was level 1 support, but I was told this is what the Sol-Arks are supposed to do and it is a feature not a bug. Their take is if there is any fault on any one string, the Sol-Ark assumes the worst and shuts everything down. > > I wonder what solutions could be implemented on future installs to prevent this from happening? > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > Owner > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > Office - 808 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > > > On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 11:45 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: > I think it's more likely water in a J-box or possibly physical damage, but someone passed by the property and did not observe any physical damage to the array. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 5:41 PM Jay > wrote: > Jason > What’s the possibllity it was a lighting strike? > > Jay > >> On Oct 10, 2024, at 2:57 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> >>  >> We have been talking a lot recently about all-in-ones. I just had a massive fail during Hurricane Milton with a quad Sol-Ark 15K off-grid system that deserves some discussion about whether AIO is a good idea if it can't build in some resilience to errors. I'm not sure if the new Midnite unit is better in this respect, but this is what happened to the Sol-Ark system... >> >> Four inverters, each with 4 strings of PV paralleled to 2 MPPT per inverter. One of the slave units developed some sort of PV DC fault during the storm. This caused the slave inverter to shut down and throw an error, which in turn caused a parallel fault across all four inverters. Power output ceases at that point. Apparently the system keeps resetting because I have a cell modem that uploads data to Sol-Ark, but that cell modem is powered by the inverter outputs, so it must be getting power at least intermittently. The rest of the loads are basically flatlined according to the Sol-Ark data. It's mostly air conditioners, so they probably can't turn on fast enough before the PV fault causes another shutdown. >> >> So, in essence, one of 16 strings of PV develops a fault, and that causes all four inverters to malfunction? What is the point of redundancy if a fault of one results in a fault of all?! If there is a true PV input fault, shouldn't that just shut down that MPPT, or perhaps all of the PV DC input to that inverter? And why can't this inverter continue to invert power from the batteries and charge from a generator when there is a DC input fault that could be programmatically isolated and ignored? >> >> This is a bad design in my opinion, and something I hadn't considered. If the faulted inverter can't function with a DC input fault, it should just take itself out of the game. (This is 120/240 split phase, BTW). Is this how all AIO inverters work? One inverter fault on the DC side kills all paralleled units' AC output? Not good. >> >> This is a completely off-grid system on a remote island with no vehicle access, so it's not exactly easy to do a "truck roll" on this one, especially post-hurricane. To make matters worse, the generator was running at the time of the fault, as it was being signaled to run because the battery had reached the assigned charge voltage. The fault also killed the 2-wire start signal from the master, so the system also stopped passing through generator power to the loads. The house is dark. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Oct 10 19:47:47 2024 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2024 19:47:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] All-In-Ones / Sol-Ark fail In-Reply-To: <7D25E210-5A0A-4948-BA0F-34034FEFF72C@gmail.com> References: <7D25E210-5A0A-4948-BA0F-34034FEFF72C@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi all, The response from Midnite: * On a PV insulation fault, only the pv shuts down. On other pv faults (I'm not sure what they would be) they say that it is required to shut off the AC. * In stacked systems, if one inverter errors off that does not bring down the other AIOs. Howie On Thu, Oct 10, 2024, 7:19 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Seems like this is a firmware setting and should be adjustable. If lo > > On Oct 10, 2024, at 3:59 PM, Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Aloha All, > > Thank you Jason. This is a huge and surprising issue. So much so that I > dropped what I was doing and called Sol-Ark to confirm. Mind you this was > level 1 support, but I was told this is what the Sol-Arks are supposed to > do and it is a feature not a bug. Their take is if there is any fault on > any one string, the Sol-Ark assumes the worst and shuts everything down. > > I wonder what solutions could be implemented on future installs to prevent > this from happening? > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > Owner > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > Office - 808 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > > > On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 11:45 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I think it's more likely water in a J-box or possibly physical damage, >> but someone passed by the property and did not observe any physical damage >> to the array. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 5:41 PM Jay wrote: >> >>> Jason >>> What’s the possibllity it was a lighting strike? >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> On Oct 10, 2024, at 2:57 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> We have been talking a lot recently about all-in-ones. I just had a >>> massive fail during Hurricane Milton with a quad Sol-Ark 15K off-grid >>> system that deserves some discussion about whether AIO is a good idea if it >>> can't build in some resilience to errors. I'm not sure if the new Midnite >>> unit is better in this respect, but this is what happened to the Sol-Ark >>> system... >>> >>> Four inverters, each with 4 strings of PV paralleled to 2 MPPT per >>> inverter. One of the slave units developed some sort of PV DC fault during >>> the storm. This caused the slave inverter to shut down and throw an error, >>> which in turn caused a parallel fault across all four inverters. Power >>> output ceases at that point. Apparently the system keeps resetting because >>> I have a cell modem that uploads data to Sol-Ark, but that cell modem is >>> powered by the inverter outputs, so it must be getting power at least >>> intermittently. The rest of the loads are basically flatlined according to >>> the Sol-Ark data. It's mostly air conditioners, so they probably can't turn >>> on fast enough before the PV fault causes another shutdown. >>> >>> So, in essence, one of 16 strings of PV develops a fault, and that >>> causes all four inverters to malfunction? What is the point of redundancy >>> if a fault of one results in a fault of all?! If there is a true PV input >>> fault, shouldn't that just shut down that MPPT, or perhaps all of the PV DC >>> input to that inverter? And why can't this inverter continue to invert >>> power from the batteries and charge from a generator when there is a DC >>> input fault that could be programmatically isolated and ignored? >>> >>> This is a bad design in my opinion, and something I hadn't considered. >>> If the faulted inverter can't function with a DC input fault, it should >>> just take itself out of the game. (This is 120/240 split phase, BTW). Is >>> this how all AIO inverters work? One inverter fault on the DC side kills >>> all paralleled units' AC output? Not good. >>> >>> This is a completely off-grid system on a remote island with no vehicle >>> access, so it's not exactly easy to do a "truck roll" on this one, >>> especially post-hurricane. To make matters worse, the generator was running >>> at the time of the fault, as it was being signaled to run because the >>> battery had reached the assigned charge voltage. The fault also killed the >>> 2-wire start signal from the master, so the system also stopped passing >>> through generator power to the loads. The house is dark. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Jharen.Poole at sol-ark.com Thu Oct 10 19:50:27 2024 From: Jharen.Poole at sol-ark.com (Poole, Jharen) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2024 23:50:27 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] All-In-Ones / Sol-Ark fail In-Reply-To: <7D25E210-5A0A-4948-BA0F-34034FEFF72C@gmail.com> References: <7D25E210-5A0A-4948-BA0F-34034FEFF72C@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thank you for your feedback Jason. These are essential functions we must implement to comply with UL1741 standards. If this were to be changed then this could affect our status of being compliant with this standard and will limit the markets we could offer the Sol-Ark inverter. If you haven't already, I recommend calling our support line for assistance with this issue. You can reach our technical support team at 972-575-8875, Ext. 2, or email us at support at sol-ark.com. I’m not certain which fault code was triggered, but some PV-related faults can be in relation to the AC side as well, which could potentially lead to further damage to the installation. As a side note, you can disconnect the PV of the affected inverter by opening the circuit using the DC disconnect. If the fault is coming from one of the inverters related to the PV, the system should function normally once you disconnect the affected string from the inverter. After experiencing multiple faults consecutively, the inverters may require a manual power cycle to return to normal operation. Again, I am not certain what fault was triggered or if you were able to reach our support line, but this should resume activity for the inverters until you are able to make it to the site. Best Regards, Jharen Poole Applications Engineer II 972-575-8875 [cid:4fc04000-1e1e-4b96-b9a2-4422dddacb70] ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of jay via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2024 6:17 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: jay ; Lou Russo Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] All-In-Ones / Sol-Ark fail Caution: This email is from an external source. Seems like this is a firmware setting and should be adjustable. If lo On Oct 10, 2024, at 3:59 PM, Lou Russo via RE-wrenches > wrote: Aloha All, Thank you Jason. This is a huge and surprising issue. So much so that I dropped what I was doing and called Sol-Ark to confirm. Mind you this was level 1 support, but I was told this is what the Sol-Arks are supposed to do and it is a feature not a bug. Their take is if there is any fault on any one string, the Sol-Ark assumes the worst and shuts everything down. I wonder what solutions could be implemented on future installs to prevent this from happening? Aloha, Lou Russo Owner lou at spreesolarsystems.com Office - 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 11:45 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: I think it's more likely water in a J-box or possibly physical damage, but someone passed by the property and did not observe any physical damage to the array. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 5:41 PM Jay > wrote: Jason What’s the possibllity it was a lighting strike? Jay On Oct 10, 2024, at 2:57 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote:  We have been talking a lot recently about all-in-ones. I just had a massive fail during Hurricane Milton with a quad Sol-Ark 15K off-grid system that deserves some discussion about whether AIO is a good idea if it can't build in some resilience to errors. I'm not sure if the new Midnite unit is better in this respect, but this is what happened to the Sol-Ark system... Four inverters, each with 4 strings of PV paralleled to 2 MPPT per inverter. One of the slave units developed some sort of PV DC fault during the storm. This caused the slave inverter to shut down and throw an error, which in turn caused a parallel fault across all four inverters. Power output ceases at that point. Apparently the system keeps resetting because I have a cell modem that uploads data to Sol-Ark, but that cell modem is powered by the inverter outputs, so it must be getting power at least intermittently. The rest of the loads are basically flatlined according to the Sol-Ark data. It's mostly air conditioners, so they probably can't turn on fast enough before the PV fault causes another shutdown. So, in essence, one of 16 strings of PV develops a fault, and that causes all four inverters to malfunction? What is the point of redundancy if a fault of one results in a fault of all?! If there is a true PV input fault, shouldn't that just shut down that MPPT, or perhaps all of the PV DC input to that inverter? And why can't this inverter continue to invert power from the batteries and charge from a generator when there is a DC input fault that could be programmatically isolated and ignored? This is a bad design in my opinion, and something I hadn't considered. If the faulted inverter can't function with a DC input fault, it should just take itself out of the game. (This is 120/240 split phase, BTW). Is this how all AIO inverters work? One inverter fault on the DC side kills all paralleled units' AC output? Not good. This is a completely off-grid system on a remote island with no vehicle access, so it's not exactly easy to do a "truck roll" on this one, especially post-hurricane. To make matters worse, the generator was running at the time of the fault, as it was being signaled to run because the battery had reached the assigned charge voltage. The fault also killed the 2-wire start signal from the master, so the system also stopped passing through generator power to the loads. The house is dark. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-ryenaund.png Type: image/png Size: 4214 bytes Desc: Outlook-ryenaund.png URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Thu Oct 10 19:53:32 2024 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2024 19:53:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] All-In-Ones / Sol-Ark fail In-Reply-To: References: <7D25E210-5A0A-4948-BA0F-34034FEFF72C@gmail.com> Message-ID: And it works as Howie described with Fortress inverters, at least in my only grid-tie Fortress. Only all pv inputs shut down, not the inverter. On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 7:48 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi all, > The response from Midnite: > * On a PV insulation fault, only the pv shuts down. On other pv faults > (I'm not sure what they would be) they say that it is required to shut off > the AC. > * In stacked systems, if one inverter errors off that does not bring down > the other AIOs. > > Howie > > > On Thu, Oct 10, 2024, 7:19 PM jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Seems like this is a firmware setting and should be adjustable. If lo >> >> On Oct 10, 2024, at 3:59 PM, Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Aloha All, >> >> Thank you Jason. This is a huge and surprising issue. So much so that I >> dropped what I was doing and called Sol-Ark to confirm. Mind you this was >> level 1 support, but I was told this is what the Sol-Arks are supposed to >> do and it is a feature not a bug. Their take is if there is any fault on >> any one string, the Sol-Ark assumes the worst and shuts everything down. >> >> I wonder what solutions could be implemented on future installs to >> prevent this from happening? >> >> Aloha, >> >> Lou Russo >> Owner >> lou at spreesolarsystems.com >> Office - 808 345 6762 >> Spree Solar Systems LLC >> CT-34322 >> >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 11:45 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I think it's more likely water in a J-box or possibly physical damage, >>> but someone passed by the property and did not observe any physical damage >>> to the array. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 5:41 PM Jay wrote: >>> >>>> Jason >>>> What’s the possibllity it was a lighting strike? >>>> >>>> Jay >>>> >>>> On Oct 10, 2024, at 2:57 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>  >>>> We have been talking a lot recently about all-in-ones. I just had a >>>> massive fail during Hurricane Milton with a quad Sol-Ark 15K off-grid >>>> system that deserves some discussion about whether AIO is a good idea if it >>>> can't build in some resilience to errors. I'm not sure if the new Midnite >>>> unit is better in this respect, but this is what happened to the Sol-Ark >>>> system... >>>> >>>> Four inverters, each with 4 strings of PV paralleled to 2 MPPT per >>>> inverter. One of the slave units developed some sort of PV DC fault during >>>> the storm. This caused the slave inverter to shut down and throw an error, >>>> which in turn caused a parallel fault across all four inverters. Power >>>> output ceases at that point. Apparently the system keeps resetting because >>>> I have a cell modem that uploads data to Sol-Ark, but that cell modem is >>>> powered by the inverter outputs, so it must be getting power at least >>>> intermittently. The rest of the loads are basically flatlined according to >>>> the Sol-Ark data. It's mostly air conditioners, so they probably can't turn >>>> on fast enough before the PV fault causes another shutdown. >>>> >>>> So, in essence, one of 16 strings of PV develops a fault, and that >>>> causes all four inverters to malfunction? What is the point of redundancy >>>> if a fault of one results in a fault of all?! If there is a true PV input >>>> fault, shouldn't that just shut down that MPPT, or perhaps all of the PV DC >>>> input to that inverter? And why can't this inverter continue to invert >>>> power from the batteries and charge from a generator when there is a DC >>>> input fault that could be programmatically isolated and ignored? >>>> >>>> This is a bad design in my opinion, and something I hadn't considered. >>>> If the faulted inverter can't function with a DC input fault, it should >>>> just take itself out of the game. (This is 120/240 split phase, BTW). Is >>>> this how all AIO inverters work? One inverter fault on the DC side kills >>>> all paralleled units' AC output? Not good. >>>> >>>> This is a completely off-grid system on a remote island with no vehicle >>>> access, so it's not exactly easy to do a "truck roll" on this one, >>>> especially post-hurricane. To make matters worse, the generator was running >>>> at the time of the fault, as it was being signaled to run because the >>>> battery had reached the assigned charge voltage. The fault also killed the >>>> 2-wire start signal from the master, so the system also stopped passing >>>> through generator power to the loads. The house is dark. >>>> >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at greenwired.com Thu Oct 10 20:10:10 2024 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew Perkins) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2024 17:10:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol ark battery In-Reply-To: References: <59542FBC-DEC9-4CD8-8FD4-FD4ED63632B8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <19278e95342.c513e1061119976.1382274917991137146@greenwired.com> Hey Dave,                If I am not mistaken it is a 15 year warranty, one year free replacement and the rest prorated.  Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 http://www.greenwired.com        http://qr.codes/qTa1Mh ---- On Thu, 10 Oct 2024 13:19:04 -0700 Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches wrote --- Also, does anyone know the warranty period for those Powerflo batteries? I see a number of cycles specified, but not a number of years.Cheers, Dave On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 4:17 PM jay via RE-wrenches wrote: _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org HI Michael, Thats good news.  Can you monitor the individual battery cells volts/temp from the app or inverter?  I can’t get an answer on that one. jay On Oct 10, 2024, at 1:33 PM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: Just installed an AIO/Pflo16. The build quality and attention to detail make Sol-Ark look like what I've always considered them to be, CCC. Had one glitch and Rick and Logan were there for me immediately. There's nothing like talking to an engineer that designed their gear. We'll be installing a few more of these in GT/BB and OG contexts and one larger three phase BB system in the next month or so. I have a really good feeling about this inverter and battery pairing. On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 12:11 PM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches wrote: Wonderful to hear Howie. I have high hopes for many projects with Powerflo's. Hard to believe we can finally offer a battery solution with so many positive attributes by a trusted partner like Midnite for just $.25 a watt hour on the retail level. Discover has been saying it for a bit on some of their marketing materials but I finally now feel that lead is nearly dead for the majority of our installations. Nick On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 11:22 AM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote: Installed my first production model Midnite AIO with 2 PowerFlo 16 batteries, off grid.  Still learning to finess the program structure, but the integration was plug and play and flawless. No internet at site yet and the internet monitoring app isn't released yet for general use, but the Bluetooth app works well and is fairly clear. The batteries are Pylon compliant and are said to be totally compatible with Sol-Ark, though I haven't tried it yet. 2 more systems going in soon. Howie On Thu, Oct 10, 2024, 12:29 PM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches wrote: Definitely appears that Midnite's new Powerflo batteries would be applicable as well since it supports the Pylon protocol. Appears to be a true game changer but have not received my first shipment yet for a full review. Nick On Wed, Oct 9, 2024 at 11:32 AM jay via RE-wrenches wrote: HI All Wondering what people are using for lithium  battery and sol ark? And no, LA is not a option for this system. Outdoor rated would be preferred, heated isn’t needed. thanks in advance jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org/ List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org/ List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org/ List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org/ List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ -- Michael Morningstar  Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mailto:mjmorningstar at gmail.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: New_logo.png Type: image/png Size: 26518 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: qrcode_115305565_7d41abb3d8a91304ef1c1ceb56edaa4a.png Type: image/png Size: 115110 bytes Desc: not available URL: From andrew at greenwired.com Thu Oct 10 20:21:52 2024 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew Perkins) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2024 17:21:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol ark battery In-Reply-To: References: <59542FBC-DEC9-4CD8-8FD4-FD4ED63632B8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <19278f40977.12356cee31121103.4509267360681394543@greenwired.com> Jharen,           Thanks for chiming in, this is some helpful information. Can you please give us any information on when or if these batteries will be "approved"? Have an inverter manufacturer refusing technical support seems like it would only push people away from their product.  Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 http://www.greenwired.com        http://qr.codes/qTa1Mh ---- On Thu, 10 Oct 2024 13:19:48 -0700 Poole, Jharen via RE-wrenches wrote --- The Sol-Ark inverter is battery agnostic, allowing you to use lithium batteries with open loop communication. If you prefer to use a battery with closed loop communication, you can refer to the list below that have a handful of some battery manufacturers we fully support in closed loop communication. For a full list you can refer to our battery partners page on our https://www.sol-ark.com/solar-installers/battery-partners/ that list batteries we fully support in closed loop communications. These batteries have been tested and approved to ensure compatibility and meet our functionality standards with the Sol-Ark inverter. We continue to work with battery vendors, that are approved and also not approved. While use of non-approved batteries may not, by itself, void Sol-Ark’s standard limited warranty, because of significant operational and functional issues that have arisen with non-approved battery vendors, Sol-Ark determined that it does not offer technical support for non-approved batteries. As a result, Sol-Ark will not provide technical support for non-approved batteries installed or used with Sol-Ark inverters. Sol-Ark will otherwise continue to offer and provide the industry leading technical and customer support for which it is known. Some of the listed manufacturers offer outdoor rated enclosures to use with their batteries. I recommend reaching out to these manufacturers to see what options may be best for your installation.   Renon (will be added to our communications guide soon) Briggs&Stratton Discover Homegrid Pytes Storz Power EndurEnergy Systems Best Regards, Jharen Poole Applications Engineer II 972-575-8875 From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2024 2:33 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Michael Morningstar Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] sol ark battery   Caution: This email is from an external source. Just installed an AIO/Pflo16. The build quality and attention to detail make Sol-Ark look like what I've always considered them to be, CCC. Had one glitch and Rick and Logan were there for me immediately. There's nothing like talking to an engineer that designed their gear. We'll be installing a few more of these in GT/BB and OG contexts and one larger three phase BB system in the next month or so. I have a really good feeling about this inverter and battery pairing. On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 12:11 PM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches wrote: Wonderful to hear Howie. I have high hopes for many projects with Powerflo's. Hard to believe we can finally offer a battery solution with so many positive attributes by a trusted partner like Midnite for just $.25 a watt hour on the retail level. Discover has been saying it for a bit on some of their marketing materials but I finally now feel that lead is nearly dead for the majority of our installations. Nick On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 11:22 AM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote: Installed my first production model Midnite AIO with 2 PowerFlo 16 batteries, off grid.  Still learning to finess the program structure, but the integration was plug and play and flawless. No internet at site yet and the internet monitoring app isn't released yet for general use, but the Bluetooth app works well and is fairly clear. The batteries are Pylon compliant and are said to be totally compatible with Sol-Ark, though I haven't tried it yet. 2 more systems going in soon.  Howie On Thu, Oct 10, 2024, 12:29 PM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches wrote: Definitely appears that Midnite's new Powerflo batteries would be applicable as well since it supports the Pylon protocol. Appears to be a true game changer but have not received my first shipment yet for a full review. Nick On Wed, Oct 9, 2024 at 11:32 AM jay via RE-wrenches wrote: HI All Wondering what people are using for lithium  battery and sol ark? And no, LA is not a option for this system. Outdoor rated would be preferred, heated isn’t needed. thanks in advance jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Michael Morningstar  Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mailto:mjmorningstar at gmail.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: New_logo.png Type: image/png Size: 26518 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: qrcode_115305565_7d41abb3d8a91304ef1c1ceb56edaa4a.png Type: image/png Size: 115110 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1.png Type: image/png Size: 4214 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Thu Oct 10 22:57:14 2024 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2024 19:57:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Help on something strange In-Reply-To: <005301db1a90$cb7c37d0$6274a770$@mindspring.com> References: <005301db1a90$cb7c37d0$6274a770$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: That's too bad the previous installer seemed to perhaps be thinking in the right way originally but just was wrongly implemented. Perhaps treat it like we used to with powerful hydro systems and add a couple 48v dump loads if the unit's voltage control mechanisms can't be figured out? In the past I sometimes had difficulties obtaining Kohler manuals but did come across this one. https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1660998/Kohler-6vsg.html?page=24#manual Luke's ideas seem pretty ideal though. Good luck, Nick On Wed, Oct 9, 2024 at 2:19 PM Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Afternoon wrenchers. > > > > Have something I have never seen. Visited a prospect last week who has a > larger system that was installed wrong. We are looking at fixing it. One of > the issues, the customer was told to buy and install a Kohler 6VSG 48 Volt > DC generator. The original installer ran the DC outputs into the AC inputs > of the inverters. Needless to say, application does not work. It was > mentioned to me that these DC Gensets need a “Buffer “ between the gen and > the battery bank. > > > > Have reached out to Kohler, no clue, Kohlers top resellers, no clue. Off > grid resellers in our industry, no clue. Anybody here have a clue and the > proper way to run / use this generator to safely charge the large battery > bank. > > > > Any and all help greatly appreciated. > > > > Thx > > Peter Giroux > > American Solar & Alternative Energy Solutions inc > > Beautiful Norcross Ga > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Oct 11 06:39:58 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2024 10:39:58 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] All-In-Ones / Sol-Ark fail In-Reply-To: References: <7D25E210-5A0A-4948-BA0F-34034FEFF72C@gmail.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment-1.png Type: image/png Size: 4009 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Oct 11 06:55:57 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2024 06:55:57 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] All-In-Ones / Sol-Ark fail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: More interesting information... When the sun went down last night, the fault cleared and the inverters started producing power again, drawing from the batteries, and restarting the generator. The master inverter "remembered" the generator was in it's charging cycle and hadn't reached full battery yet. It's good that the inverters started inverting again. That's a plus. I actually wish the generator hadn't started because it was unnecessary based on battery voltage, which was near full anyway. Which brings me to another annoying behavior of the Sol-Arks that I discovered in how the GEN Charge and GRID Charge parameters work with signaling the two-wire start. If the battery voltage is 50V and the charge parameter is set to 49V, the generator signal will not kick on of course – the generator start relay is open. However, if you change the charge parameter setpoint to, say 51V, the generator should start because the battery voltage is below the setpoint. But that does not happen. The battery voltage must "fall through" the parameter setting for the charging to be triggered and the relay to close. If you are in a situation where you need to get the generator on a charge cycle and then leave the site, the only way I have found to do this is to set it to something very close to the battery voltage, say 49.9V, put a heavy load on to drop the voltage below the setpoint, let the generator start, then change the setpoint to the desired 51V. Back to the original issue – I dug into the string voltage data history remotely and narrowed down the fault to two of the four inverters. I am sending someone to shut down the PV DC switches on these two inverters today in hopes that we can keep the power flowing during the day and through the weekend. I'm planning on a Monday boat ride out there to see what caused the fault(s). I will report back. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 6:00 PM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Aloha All, > > Thank you Jason. This is a huge and surprising issue. So much so that I > dropped what I was doing and called Sol-Ark to confirm. Mind you this was > level 1 support, but I was told this is what the Sol-Arks are supposed to > do and it is a feature not a bug. Their take is if there is any fault on > any one string, the Sol-Ark assumes the worst and shuts everything down. > > I wonder what solutions could be implemented on future installs to prevent > this from happening? > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > Owner > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > Office - 808 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > > > On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 11:45 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I think it's more likely water in a J-box or possibly physical damage, >> but someone passed by the property and did not observe any physical damage >> to the array. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 5:41 PM Jay wrote: >> >>> Jason >>> What’s the possibllity it was a lighting strike? >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> On Oct 10, 2024, at 2:57 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> We have been talking a lot recently about all-in-ones. I just had a >>> massive fail during Hurricane Milton with a quad Sol-Ark 15K off-grid >>> system that deserves some discussion about whether AIO is a good idea if it >>> can't build in some resilience to errors. I'm not sure if the new Midnite >>> unit is better in this respect, but this is what happened to the Sol-Ark >>> system... >>> >>> Four inverters, each with 4 strings of PV paralleled to 2 MPPT per >>> inverter. One of the slave units developed some sort of PV DC fault during >>> the storm. This caused the slave inverter to shut down and throw an error, >>> which in turn caused a parallel fault across all four inverters. Power >>> output ceases at that point. Apparently the system keeps resetting because >>> I have a cell modem that uploads data to Sol-Ark, but that cell modem is >>> powered by the inverter outputs, so it must be getting power at least >>> intermittently. The rest of the loads are basically flatlined according to >>> the Sol-Ark data. It's mostly air conditioners, so they probably can't turn >>> on fast enough before the PV fault causes another shutdown. >>> >>> So, in essence, one of 16 strings of PV develops a fault, and that >>> causes all four inverters to malfunction? What is the point of redundancy >>> if a fault of one results in a fault of all?! If there is a true PV input >>> fault, shouldn't that just shut down that MPPT, or perhaps all of the PV DC >>> input to that inverter? And why can't this inverter continue to invert >>> power from the batteries and charge from a generator when there is a DC >>> input fault that could be programmatically isolated and ignored? >>> >>> This is a bad design in my opinion, and something I hadn't considered. >>> If the faulted inverter can't function with a DC input fault, it should >>> just take itself out of the game. (This is 120/240 split phase, BTW). Is >>> this how all AIO inverters work? One inverter fault on the DC side kills >>> all paralleled units' AC output? Not good. >>> >>> This is a completely off-grid system on a remote island with no vehicle >>> access, so it's not exactly easy to do a "truck roll" on this one, >>> especially post-hurricane. To make matters worse, the generator was running >>> at the time of the fault, as it was being signaled to run because the >>> battery had reached the assigned charge voltage. The fault also killed the >>> 2-wire start signal from the master, so the system also stopped passing >>> through generator power to the loads. The house is dark. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Oct 11 07:02:50 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2024 11:02:50 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol ark battery In-Reply-To: <19278f40977.12356cee31121103.4509267360681394543@greenwired.com> References: <59542FBC-DEC9-4CD8-8FD4-FD4ED63632B8@gmail.com> <19278f40977.12356cee31121103.4509267360681394543@greenwired.com> Message-ID: <5363c38c-67c5-fb73-d793-ff12938a0abe@floridasolardesigngroup.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment-1.png Type: image/png Size: 26485 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment-2.png Type: image/png Size: 76152 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment-3.png Type: image/png Size: 4009 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Fri Oct 11 07:08:08 2024 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2024 07:08:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schuco 225 Module Message-ID: Wrenches, If anyone has a working Schuco MPE225-PS-09 module they are willing to sell me, please contact me off list. Thanks and happy Friday! -Chris Sparadeo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Oct 11 14:37:34 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2024 14:37:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] All-In-Ones / Sol-Ark fail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: By shutting off the PV disconnects on the two affected inverters we were able to make the system work successfully today. As I mentioned, we will dig into the actual faults on Monday. From the historical data, I found that this issue has actually been going on for a week before the faults started happening in the inverters. I'm not sure why the faults took so long to cause a shutdown of the inverters. Maybe it just "got worse" and finally triggered a fault. The first faults would have been during the early band of rain from Hurricane Milton, so possibly water or wind put the issue over the top. Before the shutdown, each of the two affected inverters had one MPPT with voltages out of the expected range for the last week. All MPPT strings are 14 modules with 7 in series, 2 in parallel. Each string Voc is 342V and Vmp is 297V. On the first affected inverter, I was able to observe the bad string operating consistently around 370V to 400V+, which is obviously well above the Voc (and it's hot here in Florida). The good string on this inverter operated around 260-270V during the same time, which is the expected range. On the second affected inverter, I observed the bad string operating consistently around 100V to 130V+. The good string on this inverter operated around 260-270V during the same time, which again is the expected range. Graphs are attached for those of you who like that kind of stuff. These show a typical day after the issue started to occur, but before the inverter faults occurred. Incidentally, the average voltage of the two bad strings seems to be pretty close to the normal strings, so that is a good clue. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 6:55 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > More interesting information... When the sun went down last night, the > fault cleared and the inverters started producing power again, drawing from > the batteries, and restarting the generator. The master inverter > "remembered" the generator was in it's charging cycle and hadn't reached > full battery yet. > > It's good that the inverters started inverting again. That's a plus. I > actually wish the generator hadn't started because it was unnecessary based > on battery voltage, which was near full anyway. > > Which brings me to another annoying behavior of the Sol-Arks that I > discovered in how the GEN Charge and GRID Charge parameters work with > signaling the two-wire start. If the battery voltage is 50V and the charge > parameter is set to 49V, the generator signal will not kick on of course – > the generator start relay is open. However, if you change the charge > parameter setpoint to, say 51V, the generator should start because the > battery voltage is below the setpoint. But that does not happen. The > battery voltage must "fall through" the parameter setting for the charging > to be triggered and the relay to close. If you are in a situation where you > need to get the generator on a charge cycle and then leave the site, the > only way I have found to do this is to set it to something very close to > the battery voltage, say 49.9V, put a heavy load on to drop the voltage > below the setpoint, let the generator start, then change the setpoint to > the desired 51V. > > > Back to the original issue – I dug into the string voltage data history > remotely and narrowed down the fault to two of the four inverters. I am > sending someone to shut down the PV DC switches on these two inverters > today in hopes that we can keep the power flowing during the day and > through the weekend. I'm planning on a Monday boat ride out there to see > what caused the fault(s). I will report back. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 6:00 PM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Aloha All, >> >> Thank you Jason. This is a huge and surprising issue. So much so that I >> dropped what I was doing and called Sol-Ark to confirm. Mind you this was >> level 1 support, but I was told this is what the Sol-Arks are supposed to >> do and it is a feature not a bug. Their take is if there is any fault on >> any one string, the Sol-Ark assumes the worst and shuts everything down. >> >> I wonder what solutions could be implemented on future installs to >> prevent this from happening? >> >> Aloha, >> >> Lou Russo >> Owner >> lou at spreesolarsystems.com >> Office - 808 345 6762 >> Spree Solar Systems LLC >> CT-34322 >> >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 11:45 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I think it's more likely water in a J-box or possibly physical damage, >>> but someone passed by the property and did not observe any physical damage >>> to the array. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 5:41 PM Jay wrote: >>> >>>> Jason >>>> What’s the possibllity it was a lighting strike? >>>> >>>> Jay >>>> >>>> On Oct 10, 2024, at 2:57 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>  >>>> We have been talking a lot recently about all-in-ones. I just had a >>>> massive fail during Hurricane Milton with a quad Sol-Ark 15K off-grid >>>> system that deserves some discussion about whether AIO is a good idea if it >>>> can't build in some resilience to errors. I'm not sure if the new Midnite >>>> unit is better in this respect, but this is what happened to the Sol-Ark >>>> system... >>>> >>>> Four inverters, each with 4 strings of PV paralleled to 2 MPPT per >>>> inverter. One of the slave units developed some sort of PV DC fault during >>>> the storm. This caused the slave inverter to shut down and throw an error, >>>> which in turn caused a parallel fault across all four inverters. Power >>>> output ceases at that point. Apparently the system keeps resetting because >>>> I have a cell modem that uploads data to Sol-Ark, but that cell modem is >>>> powered by the inverter outputs, so it must be getting power at least >>>> intermittently. The rest of the loads are basically flatlined according to >>>> the Sol-Ark data. It's mostly air conditioners, so they probably can't turn >>>> on fast enough before the PV fault causes another shutdown. >>>> >>>> So, in essence, one of 16 strings of PV develops a fault, and that >>>> causes all four inverters to malfunction? What is the point of redundancy >>>> if a fault of one results in a fault of all?! If there is a true PV input >>>> fault, shouldn't that just shut down that MPPT, or perhaps all of the PV DC >>>> input to that inverter? And why can't this inverter continue to invert >>>> power from the batteries and charge from a generator when there is a DC >>>> input fault that could be programmatically isolated and ignored? >>>> >>>> This is a bad design in my opinion, and something I hadn't considered. >>>> If the faulted inverter can't function with a DC input fault, it should >>>> just take itself out of the game. (This is 120/240 split phase, BTW). Is >>>> this how all AIO inverters work? One inverter fault on the DC side kills >>>> all paralleled units' AC output? Not good. >>>> >>>> This is a completely off-grid system on a remote island with no vehicle >>>> access, so it's not exactly easy to do a "truck roll" on this one, >>>> especially post-hurricane. To make matters worse, the generator was running >>>> at the time of the fault, as it was being signaled to run because the >>>> battery had reached the assigned charge voltage. The fault also killed the >>>> 2-wire start signal from the master, so the system also stopped passing >>>> through generator power to the loads. The house is dark. >>>> >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Slave 2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 40844 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Slave 1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 37257 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Fri Oct 11 15:49:15 2024 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2024 14:49:15 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] All-In-Ones / Sol-Ark fail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Oct 11 15:59:40 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2024 15:59:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] All-In-Ones / Sol-Ark fail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That is the exact error! But I don't think that explains how I have one string over the expected voltage and one string under. It's definitely worth checking, nonetheless. This array is 12 feet in the air and pitched at 5 degrees, so you can't see the glass from the ground. It is conceivable that I have two issues. The voltage issue could be a wiring issue and the inverters may have faulted out due to broken modules. There were tropical force winds there at the time. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 3:49 PM Maverick Brown wrote: > Jason > > Which fault are you getting? > > This spring I was getting F23-Tz_GFCLO randomly on an upper roof array. > > After further investigation, I found several modules with broken glass. > After replacing the mods, all is well. > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > > > On Oct 11, 2024, at 1:39 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > By shutting off the PV disconnects on the two affected inverters we were > able to make the system work successfully today. As I mentioned, we will > dig into the actual faults on Monday. From the historical data, I found > that this issue has actually been going on for a week before the faults > started happening in the inverters. I'm not sure why the faults took so > long to cause a shutdown of the inverters. Maybe it just "got worse" and > finally triggered a fault. The first faults would have been during the > early band of rain from Hurricane Milton, so possibly water or wind put the > issue over the top. > > Before the shutdown, each of the two affected inverters had one MPPT with > voltages out of the expected range for the last week. > > All MPPT strings are 14 modules with 7 in series, 2 in parallel. Each > string Voc is 342V and Vmp is 297V. > > On the first affected inverter, I was able to observe the bad string > operating consistently around 370V to 400V+, which is obviously well above > the Voc (and it's hot here in Florida). The good string on this inverter > operated around 260-270V during the same time, which is the expected range. > > On the second affected inverter, I observed the bad string operating > consistently around 100V to 130V+. The good string on this inverter > operated around 260-270V during the same time, which again is the expected > range. > > Graphs are attached for those of you who like that kind of stuff. These > show a typical day after the issue started to occur, but before the > inverter faults occurred. > > Incidentally, the average voltage of the two bad strings seems to be > pretty close to the normal strings, so that is a good clue. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 6:55 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> More interesting information... When the sun went down last night, the >> fault cleared and the inverters started producing power again, drawing from >> the batteries, and restarting the generator. The master inverter >> "remembered" the generator was in it's charging cycle and hadn't reached >> full battery yet. >> >> It's good that the inverters started inverting again. That's a plus. I >> actually wish the generator hadn't started because it was unnecessary based >> on battery voltage, which was near full anyway. >> >> Which brings me to another annoying behavior of the Sol-Arks that I >> discovered in how the GEN Charge and GRID Charge parameters work with >> signaling the two-wire start. If the battery voltage is 50V and the charge >> parameter is set to 49V, the generator signal will not kick on of course – >> the generator start relay is open. However, if you change the charge >> parameter setpoint to, say 51V, the generator should start because the >> battery voltage is below the setpoint. But that does not happen. The >> battery voltage must "fall through" the parameter setting for the charging >> to be triggered and the relay to close. If you are in a situation where you >> need to get the generator on a charge cycle and then leave the site, the >> only way I have found to do this is to set it to something very close to >> the battery voltage, say 49.9V, put a heavy load on to drop the voltage >> below the setpoint, let the generator start, then change the setpoint to >> the desired 51V. >> >> >> Back to the original issue – I dug into the string voltage data history >> remotely and narrowed down the fault to two of the four inverters. I am >> sending someone to shut down the PV DC switches on these two inverters >> today in hopes that we can keep the power flowing during the day and >> through the weekend. I'm planning on a Monday boat ride out there to see >> what caused the fault(s). I will report back. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 6:00 PM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Aloha All, >>> >>> Thank you Jason. This is a huge and surprising issue. So much so that I >>> dropped what I was doing and called Sol-Ark to confirm. Mind you this was >>> level 1 support, but I was told this is what the Sol-Arks are supposed to >>> do and it is a feature not a bug. Their take is if there is any fault on >>> any one string, the Sol-Ark assumes the worst and shuts everything down. >>> >>> I wonder what solutions could be implemented on future installs to >>> prevent this from happening? >>> >>> Aloha, >>> >>> Lou Russo >>> Owner >>> lou at spreesolarsystems.com >>> Office - 808 345 6762 >>> Spree Solar Systems LLC >>> CT-34322 >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 11:45 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I think it's more likely water in a J-box or possibly physical damage, >>>> but someone passed by the property and did not observe any physical damage >>>> to the array. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 5:41 PM Jay wrote: >>>> >>>>> Jason >>>>> What’s the possibllity it was a lighting strike? >>>>> >>>>> Jay >>>>> >>>>> On Oct 10, 2024, at 2:57 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>  >>>>> We have been talking a lot recently about all-in-ones. I just had a >>>>> massive fail during Hurricane Milton with a quad Sol-Ark 15K off-grid >>>>> system that deserves some discussion about whether AIO is a good idea if it >>>>> can't build in some resilience to errors. I'm not sure if the new Midnite >>>>> unit is better in this respect, but this is what happened to the Sol-Ark >>>>> system... >>>>> >>>>> Four inverters, each with 4 strings of PV paralleled to 2 MPPT per >>>>> inverter. One of the slave units developed some sort of PV DC fault during >>>>> the storm. This caused the slave inverter to shut down and throw an error, >>>>> which in turn caused a parallel fault across all four inverters. Power >>>>> output ceases at that point. Apparently the system keeps resetting because >>>>> I have a cell modem that uploads data to Sol-Ark, but that cell modem is >>>>> powered by the inverter outputs, so it must be getting power at least >>>>> intermittently. The rest of the loads are basically flatlined according to >>>>> the Sol-Ark data. It's mostly air conditioners, so they probably can't turn >>>>> on fast enough before the PV fault causes another shutdown. >>>>> >>>>> So, in essence, one of 16 strings of PV develops a fault, and that >>>>> causes all four inverters to malfunction? What is the point of redundancy >>>>> if a fault of one results in a fault of all?! If there is a true PV input >>>>> fault, shouldn't that just shut down that MPPT, or perhaps all of the PV DC >>>>> input to that inverter? And why can't this inverter continue to invert >>>>> power from the batteries and charge from a generator when there is a DC >>>>> input fault that could be programmatically isolated and ignored? >>>>> >>>>> This is a bad design in my opinion, and something I hadn't considered. >>>>> If the faulted inverter can't function with a DC input fault, it should >>>>> just take itself out of the game. (This is 120/240 split phase, BTW). Is >>>>> this how all AIO inverters work? One inverter fault on the DC side kills >>>>> all paralleled units' AC output? Not good. >>>>> >>>>> This is a completely off-grid system on a remote island with no >>>>> vehicle access, so it's not exactly easy to do a "truck roll" on this one, >>>>> especially post-hurricane. To make matters worse, the generator was running >>>>> at the time of the fault, as it was being signaled to run because the >>>>> battery had reached the assigned charge voltage. The fault also killed the >>>>> 2-wire start signal from the master, so the system also stopped passing >>>>> through generator power to the loads. The house is dark. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Oct 11 17:25:53 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2024 15:25:53 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] All-In-Ones / Sol-Ark fail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8da6bfae-5f10-4c7d-b921-23f678b650a6@solarray.com> Another reason to do separate charge controllers is Low battery. If the AIO inverter hits its LBCO, then it takes out the PV input as well. Then the draw of the BCM takes what's left in the battery, and you're into a dark start.  Generator won't even help.  AIOs are easy to install, but not as full proof as DC coupled PV systems.  Also, the inter communication is a major issue.  I've seen inter connected charge controllers take each other out, which really defeats the redundancy of having multiple units.  I'm sure many on the list will question my wisdom; but I usually don't interconnect any of the equipment from a comms stand point.  I use open loop charging based on voltage. I once had a pinched temp sensor, that thought the batteries were at 5000 deg Kelvin.  It shut all 4 inverters down.  My most reliable multiple inverter setup is a four SW4048 system that is now 24 years old.  Each inverter feeds one leg of two load centers.  No comms, No 240 vac loads.  No shut downs.  That is the gold standard, and none of the AIO stuff, nor the module level rapid shutdown etc, can even get close to the level of reliability we had in the past.  In the off grid world, shut downs can be life threatening, and all the additional "safety" stuff added to the code since, has actually made my off grid customers less safe. You have to think what happens if the battery gets low, and no one is home?  Can it recover on its own, like a traditional DC coupled Lead acid system?  Basically, If the system can't hit LBCO, recharge the next day, and automatically turn loads back on, we've gone backwards in our designs, and equipment selection. AIOs are inferior if they can't achieve this basic functionality.  If UL standards are causing this, then those standards are incorrect for critical off grid and backup applications. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 10/10/2024 4:02 PM, Eric Smiley via RE-wrenches wrote: > Install stand-alone charge controllers. That is the only way to get > redundancy. > > Eric Smiley (he/him) - Design Manager >  250.703.6004 > eric at vecoop.ca >  888.386.0116 > 3-4997 Polkey Rd, Duncan BC, V9L 6W3 > viridiansolar.ca > > > > > > Viridian Solar honours the ancestral grounds on which we live and > provide services, recognising that these lands are unceded Indigenous > territory. We are steadfast in our commitment to reconciliation and > acknowledge the rich history and traditions that characterise this > land that we all consider home. > > > > On Thu, 10 Oct 2024 at 14:59, Lou Russo via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Aloha All, > > Thank you Jason. This is a huge and surprising issue. So much so > that I dropped what I was doing and called Sol-Ark to confirm. > Mind you this was level 1 support, but I was told this is what the > Sol-Arks are supposed to do and it is a feature not a bug. > Their take is if there is any fault on any one string, the Sol-Ark > assumes the worst and shuts everything down. > > I wonder what solutions could be implemented on future installs to > prevent this from happening? > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > Owner > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > Office - 808 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > > > On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 11:45 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > I think it's more likely water in a J-box or possibly physical > damage, but someone passed by the property and did not observe > any physical damage to the array. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 5:41 PM Jay wrote: > > Jason > What’s the possibllity it was a lighting strike? > > Jay > >> On Oct 10, 2024, at 2:57 PM, Jason Szumlanski via >> RE-wrenches wrote: >> >>  >> We have been talking a lot recently about all-in-ones. I >> just had a massive fail during Hurricane Milton with a >> quad Sol-Ark 15K off-grid system that deserves some >> discussion about whether AIO is a good idea if it can't >> build in some resilience to errors. I'm not sure if the >> new Midnite unit is better in this respect, but this is >> what happened to the Sol-Ark system... >> >> Four inverters, each with 4 strings of PV paralleled to 2 >> MPPT per inverter. One of the slave units developed some >> sort of PV DC fault during the storm. This caused the >> slave inverter to shut down and throw an error, which in >> turn caused a parallel fault across all four inverters. >> Power output ceases at that point. Apparently the system >> keeps resetting because I have a cell modem that uploads >> data to Sol-Ark, but that cell modem is powered by the >> inverter outputs, so it must be getting power at least >> intermittently. The rest of the loads are basically >> flatlined according to the Sol-Ark data. It's mostly air >> conditioners, so they probably can't turn on fast enough >> before the PV fault causes another shutdown. >> >> So, in essence, one of 16 strings of PV develops a fault, >> and that causes all four inverters to malfunction? What >> is the point of redundancy if a fault of one results in a >> fault of all?! If there is a true PV input fault, >> shouldn't that just shut down that MPPT, or perhaps all >> of the PV DC input to that inverter? And why can't this >> inverter continue to invert power from the batteries and >> charge from a generator when there is a DC input fault >> that could be programmatically isolated and ignored? >> >> This is a bad design in my opinion, and something I >> hadn't considered. If the faulted inverter can't function >> with a DC input fault, it should just take itself out of >> the game. (This is 120/240 split phase, BTW). Is this how >> all AIO inverters work? One inverter fault on the DC side >> kills all paralleled units' AC output? Not good. >> >> This is a completely off-grid system on a remote island >> with no vehicle access, so it's not exactly easy to do a >> "truck roll" on this one, especially post-hurricane. To >> make matters worse, the generator was running at the time >> of the fault, as it was being signaled to run because the >> battery had reached the assigned charge voltage. The >> fault also killed the 2-wire start signal from the >> master, so the system also stopped passing through >> generator power to the loads. The house is dark. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one >> doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't > work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Fri Oct 11 17:57:13 2024 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2024 17:57:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] All-In-Ones / Sol-Ark fail In-Reply-To: <8da6bfae-5f10-4c7d-b921-23f678b650a6@solarray.com> References: <8da6bfae-5f10-4c7d-b921-23f678b650a6@solarray.com> Message-ID: Hi Ray, I don’t think your understanding of the Sol Ark’s PV and LBCO relationship reflects actual functionality. Technically, Sol Ark doesn’t have a formal LBCO, but it has a “shut down” setting that cuts out AC output and can be programmed to cut off and cut back in at selected SOC or voltage settings, but as long as the battery is connected, the Sol Ark sees that voltage and PV production if available, solar production will recharge batteries, regardless of AC output. But yes, I agrees that AIO’s could use a healthy dose of redundancy to allow for less fickle output. -Chris On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 5:26 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Another reason to do separate charge controllers is Low battery. If the > AIO inverter hits its LBCO, then it takes out the PV input as well. Then > the draw of the BCM takes what's left in the battery, and you're into a > dark start. Generator won't even help. AIOs are easy to install, but not > as full proof as DC coupled PV systems. Also, the inter communication is a > major issue. I've seen inter connected charge controllers take each other > out, which really defeats the redundancy of having multiple units. I'm > sure many on the list will question my wisdom; but I usually don't > interconnect any of the equipment from a comms stand point. I use open > loop charging based on voltage. > > I once had a pinched temp sensor, that thought the batteries were at 5000 > deg Kelvin. It shut all 4 inverters down. My most reliable multiple > inverter setup is a four SW4048 system that is now 24 years old. Each > inverter feeds one leg of two load centers. No comms, No 240 vac loads. > No shut downs. That is the gold standard, and none of the AIO stuff, nor > the module level rapid shutdown etc, can even get close to the level of > reliability we had in the past. In the off grid world, shut downs can be > life threatening, and all the additional "safety" stuff added to the code > since, has actually made my off grid customers less safe. > > You have to think what happens if the battery gets low, and no one is > home? Can it recover on its own, like a traditional DC coupled Lead acid > system? Basically, If the system can't hit LBCO, recharge the next day, > and automatically turn loads back on, we've gone backwards in our designs, > and equipment selection. AIOs are inferior if they can't achieve this basic > functionality. If UL standards are causing this, then those standards are > incorrect for critical off grid and backup applications. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > On 10/10/2024 4:02 PM, Eric Smiley via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Install stand-alone charge controllers. That is the only way to get > redundancy. > > Eric Smiley (he/him) - Design Manager > > 250.703.6004 > eric at vecoop.ca > 888.386.0116 > 3-4997 Polkey Rd, Duncan BC, V9L 6W3 > > viridiansolar.ca > > > > > Viridian Solar honours the ancestral grounds on which we live and provide > services, recognising that these lands are unceded Indigenous territory. We > are steadfast in our commitment to reconciliation and acknowledge the rich > history and traditions that characterise this land that we all consider > home. > > > > On Thu, 10 Oct 2024 at 14:59, Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Aloha All, >> >> Thank you Jason. This is a huge and surprising issue. So much so that I >> dropped what I was doing and called Sol-Ark to confirm. Mind you this was >> level 1 support, but I was told this is what the Sol-Arks are supposed to >> do and it is a feature not a bug. Their take is if there is any fault on >> any one string, the Sol-Ark assumes the worst and shuts everything down. >> >> I wonder what solutions could be implemented on future installs to >> prevent this from happening? >> >> Aloha, >> >> Lou Russo >> Owner >> lou at spreesolarsystems.com >> Office - 808 345 6762 >> Spree Solar Systems LLC >> CT-34322 >> >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 11:45 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I think it's more likely water in a J-box or possibly physical damage, >>> but someone passed by the property and did not observe any physical damage >>> to the array. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 5:41 PM Jay wrote: >>> >>>> Jason >>>> What’s the possibllity it was a lighting strike? >>>> >>>> Jay >>>> >>>> On Oct 10, 2024, at 2:57 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>  >>>> We have been talking a lot recently about all-in-ones. I just had a >>>> massive fail during Hurricane Milton with a quad Sol-Ark 15K off-grid >>>> system that deserves some discussion about whether AIO is a good idea if it >>>> can't build in some resilience to errors. I'm not sure if the new Midnite >>>> unit is better in this respect, but this is what happened to the Sol-Ark >>>> system... >>>> >>>> Four inverters, each with 4 strings of PV paralleled to 2 MPPT per >>>> inverter. One of the slave units developed some sort of PV DC fault during >>>> the storm. This caused the slave inverter to shut down and throw an error, >>>> which in turn caused a parallel fault across all four inverters. Power >>>> output ceases at that point. Apparently the system keeps resetting because >>>> I have a cell modem that uploads data to Sol-Ark, but that cell modem is >>>> powered by the inverter outputs, so it must be getting power at least >>>> intermittently. The rest of the loads are basically flatlined according to >>>> the Sol-Ark data. It's mostly air conditioners, so they probably can't turn >>>> on fast enough before the PV fault causes another shutdown. >>>> >>>> So, in essence, one of 16 strings of PV develops a fault, and that >>>> causes all four inverters to malfunction? What is the point of redundancy >>>> if a fault of one results in a fault of all?! If there is a true PV input >>>> fault, shouldn't that just shut down that MPPT, or perhaps all of the PV DC >>>> input to that inverter? And why can't this inverter continue to invert >>>> power from the batteries and charge from a generator when there is a DC >>>> input fault that could be programmatically isolated and ignored? >>>> >>>> This is a bad design in my opinion, and something I hadn't considered. >>>> If the faulted inverter can't function with a DC input fault, it should >>>> just take itself out of the game. (This is 120/240 split phase, BTW). Is >>>> this how all AIO inverters work? One inverter fault on the DC side kills >>>> all paralleled units' AC output? Not good. >>>> >>>> This is a completely off-grid system on a remote island with no vehicle >>>> access, so it's not exactly easy to do a "truck roll" on this one, >>>> especially post-hurricane. To make matters worse, the generator was running >>>> at the time of the fault, as it was being signaled to run because the >>>> battery had reached the assigned charge voltage. The fault also killed the >>>> 2-wire start signal from the master, so the system also stopped passing >>>> through generator power to the loads. The house is dark. >>>> >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Oct 11 18:11:59 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2024 18:11:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] All-In-Ones / Sol-Ark fail In-Reply-To: <8da6bfae-5f10-4c7d-b921-23f678b650a6@solarray.com> References: <8da6bfae-5f10-4c7d-b921-23f678b650a6@solarray.com> Message-ID: I don't think that's how LBCO works exactly with AIOs. If the Sol-Ark reaches the "Shutdown" voltage parameter, it stops inverting, but when PV is available again it does charge the battery and will start inverting again when the "Restart" voltage is reached. The Shutdown parameter doesn't actually "shut down" the inverter. It just stops inverting. I will continue to send performance data via the comms dongle during this time as well. Of course, the draw from the inverter itself can cause the battery to continue to get depleted and a LiPO battery could eventually reach a point where it's BMS shuts down. This is more problematic with small battery banks relative to the idle consumption of the inverter. For large battery banks this is a non-issue as long as the voltage parameters are set conservatively. But for sure the old school systems are hard to beat for reliability, or maybe better put, resiliency and redundancy. Unfortunately they require more hands on maintenance and "tinkering" than newer options, and there are more components to fail. They are also harder to design and install. With time being so valuable, it's getting impossible to support older systems in a profitable way. We need to challenge the AIO makers to understand the resilience and redundancy that off-grid systems need. The flexibility to use them on or off-grid is great, but we need them to be great at both, not just good if they want to play in both markets. I reject the "listing requirements made us do it" argument. There must be a workaround to ensure that a ground fault on a single PV string connected to one inverter would cause an AC output failure on all paralleled inverters. That doesn't pass the logic test because you could simply turn off that inverter without physically changing any wiring to resume power production. In fact, I proved that today by simply turning off the DC input switch. That should happen automatically! Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Fri, Oct 11, 2024, 5:26 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Another reason to do separate charge controllers is Low battery. If the > AIO inverter hits its LBCO, then it takes out the PV input as well. Then > the draw of the BCM takes what's left in the battery, and you're into a > dark start. Generator won't even help. AIOs are easy to install, but not > as full proof as DC coupled PV systems. Also, the inter communication is a > major issue. I've seen inter connected charge controllers take each other > out, which really defeats the redundancy of having multiple units. I'm > sure many on the list will question my wisdom; but I usually don't > interconnect any of the equipment from a comms stand point. I use open > loop charging based on voltage. > > I once had a pinched temp sensor, that thought the batteries were at 5000 > deg Kelvin. It shut all 4 inverters down. My most reliable multiple > inverter setup is a four SW4048 system that is now 24 years old. Each > inverter feeds one leg of two load centers. No comms, No 240 vac loads. > No shut downs. That is the gold standard, and none of the AIO stuff, nor > the module level rapid shutdown etc, can even get close to the level of > reliability we had in the past. In the off grid world, shut downs can be > life threatening, and all the additional "safety" stuff added to the code > since, has actually made my off grid customers less safe. > > You have to think what happens if the battery gets low, and no one is > home? Can it recover on its own, like a traditional DC coupled Lead acid > system? Basically, If the system can't hit LBCO, recharge the next day, > and automatically turn loads back on, we've gone backwards in our designs, > and equipment selection. AIOs are inferior if they can't achieve this basic > functionality. If UL standards are causing this, then those standards are > incorrect for critical off grid and backup applications. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > On 10/10/2024 4:02 PM, Eric Smiley via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Install stand-alone charge controllers. That is the only way to get > redundancy. > > Eric Smiley (he/him) - Design Manager > > 250.703.6004 > eric at vecoop.ca > 888.386.0116 > 3-4997 Polkey Rd, Duncan BC, V9L 6W3 > > viridiansolar.ca > > > > > Viridian Solar honours the ancestral grounds on which we live and provide > services, recognising that these lands are unceded Indigenous territory. We > are steadfast in our commitment to reconciliation and acknowledge the rich > history and traditions that characterise this land that we all consider > home. > > > > On Thu, 10 Oct 2024 at 14:59, Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Aloha All, >> >> Thank you Jason. This is a huge and surprising issue. So much so that I >> dropped what I was doing and called Sol-Ark to confirm. Mind you this was >> level 1 support, but I was told this is what the Sol-Arks are supposed to >> do and it is a feature not a bug. Their take is if there is any fault on >> any one string, the Sol-Ark assumes the worst and shuts everything down. >> >> I wonder what solutions could be implemented on future installs to >> prevent this from happening? >> >> Aloha, >> >> Lou Russo >> Owner >> lou at spreesolarsystems.com >> Office - 808 345 6762 >> Spree Solar Systems LLC >> CT-34322 >> >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 11:45 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I think it's more likely water in a J-box or possibly physical damage, >>> but someone passed by the property and did not observe any physical damage >>> to the array. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 5:41 PM Jay wrote: >>> >>>> Jason >>>> What’s the possibllity it was a lighting strike? >>>> >>>> Jay >>>> >>>> On Oct 10, 2024, at 2:57 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>  >>>> We have been talking a lot recently about all-in-ones. I just had a >>>> massive fail during Hurricane Milton with a quad Sol-Ark 15K off-grid >>>> system that deserves some discussion about whether AIO is a good idea if it >>>> can't build in some resilience to errors. I'm not sure if the new Midnite >>>> unit is better in this respect, but this is what happened to the Sol-Ark >>>> system... >>>> >>>> Four inverters, each with 4 strings of PV paralleled to 2 MPPT per >>>> inverter. One of the slave units developed some sort of PV DC fault during >>>> the storm. This caused the slave inverter to shut down and throw an error, >>>> which in turn caused a parallel fault across all four inverters. Power >>>> output ceases at that point. Apparently the system keeps resetting because >>>> I have a cell modem that uploads data to Sol-Ark, but that cell modem is >>>> powered by the inverter outputs, so it must be getting power at least >>>> intermittently. The rest of the loads are basically flatlined according to >>>> the Sol-Ark data. It's mostly air conditioners, so they probably can't turn >>>> on fast enough before the PV fault causes another shutdown. >>>> >>>> So, in essence, one of 16 strings of PV develops a fault, and that >>>> causes all four inverters to malfunction? What is the point of redundancy >>>> if a fault of one results in a fault of all?! If there is a true PV input >>>> fault, shouldn't that just shut down that MPPT, or perhaps all of the PV DC >>>> input to that inverter? And why can't this inverter continue to invert >>>> power from the batteries and charge from a generator when there is a DC >>>> input fault that could be programmatically isolated and ignored? >>>> >>>> This is a bad design in my opinion, and something I hadn't considered. >>>> If the faulted inverter can't function with a DC input fault, it should >>>> just take itself out of the game. (This is 120/240 split phase, BTW). Is >>>> this how all AIO inverters work? One inverter fault on the DC side kills >>>> all paralleled units' AC output? Not good. >>>> >>>> This is a completely off-grid system on a remote island with no vehicle >>>> access, so it's not exactly easy to do a "truck roll" on this one, >>>> especially post-hurricane. To make matters worse, the generator was running >>>> at the time of the fault, as it was being signaled to run because the >>>> battery had reached the assigned charge voltage. The fault also killed the >>>> 2-wire start signal from the master, so the system also stopped passing >>>> through generator power to the loads. The house is dark. >>>> >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Oct 11 18:22:31 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2024 16:22:31 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] All-In-Ones / Sol-Ark fail In-Reply-To: References: <8da6bfae-5f10-4c7d-b921-23f678b650a6@solarray.com> Message-ID: Interesting, because that has not been my experience, and Solark confirmed that when the inverter shuts down, the PV charging does too.  Maybe that has changed in a firmware update.  Or possibly, the inverter went through LBCO on the output as you mentioned, then dropped further through the night to shut down completely by the next morning.  Either way, the system has required manually resetting to start charging again. Ray Walters On 10/11/2024 3:57 PM, Chris Sparadeo wrote: > Hi Ray, > > I don’t think your understanding of the Sol Ark’s PV and LBCO > relationship reflects actual functionality. Technically, Sol Ark > doesn’t have a formal LBCO, but it has a “shut down” setting that cuts > out AC output and can be programmed to cut off and cut back in at > selected SOC or voltage settings,  but as long as the battery is > connected, the Sol Ark sees that voltage and PV production if > available, solar production will recharge batteries, regardless of AC > output. > > But yes, I agrees that AIO’s could use a healthy dose of redundancy to > allow for less fickle output. > > -Chris > > On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 5:26 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Another reason to do separate charge controllers is Low battery. > If the AIO inverter hits its LBCO, then it takes out the PV input > as well. Then the draw of the BCM takes what's left in the > battery, and you're into a dark start.  Generator won't even > help.  AIOs are easy to install, but not as full proof as DC > coupled PV systems.  Also, the inter communication is a major > issue.  I've seen inter connected charge controllers take each > other out, which really defeats the redundancy of having multiple > units.  I'm sure many on the list will question my wisdom; but I > usually don't interconnect any of the equipment from a comms stand > point.  I use open loop charging based on voltage. > > I once had a pinched temp sensor, that thought the batteries were > at 5000 deg Kelvin.  It shut all 4 inverters down.  My most > reliable multiple inverter setup is a four SW4048 system that is > now 24 years old. Each inverter feeds one leg of two load > centers.  No comms, No 240 vac loads.  No shut downs.  That is the > gold standard, and none of the AIO stuff, nor the module level > rapid shutdown etc, can even get close to the level of reliability > we had in the past.  In the off grid world, shut downs can be life > threatening, and all the additional "safety" stuff added to the > code since, has actually made my off grid customers less safe. > > You have to think what happens if the battery gets low, and no one > is home?  Can it recover on its own, like a traditional DC coupled > Lead acid system?  Basically, If the system can't hit LBCO, > recharge the next day, and automatically turn loads back on, we've > gone backwards in our designs, and equipment selection. AIOs are > inferior if they can't achieve this basic functionality.  If UL > standards are causing this, then those standards are incorrect for > critical off grid and backup applications. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > On 10/10/2024 4:02 PM, Eric Smiley via RE-wrenches wrote: >> Install stand-alone charge controllers. That is the only way to >> get redundancy. >> >> Eric Smiley (he/him) - Design Manager >>  250.703.6004 >> eric at vecoop.ca >>  888.386.0116 >> 3-4997 Polkey Rd, Duncan BC, V9L 6W3 >> >> viridiansolar.ca >> >> >> >> >> >> Viridian Solar honours the ancestral grounds on which we live and >> provide services, recognising that these lands are unceded >> Indigenous territory. We are steadfast in our commitment to >> reconciliation and acknowledge the rich history and traditions >> that characterise this land that we all consider home. >> >> >> >> On Thu, 10 Oct 2024 at 14:59, Lou Russo via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> Aloha All, >> >> Thank you Jason. This is a huge and surprising issue. So much >> so that I dropped what I was doing and called Sol-Ark to >> confirm. Mind you this was level 1 support, but I was told >> this is what the Sol-Arks are supposed to do and it is a >> feature not a bug. Their take is if there is any fault on any >> one string, the Sol-Ark assumes the worst and shuts >> everything down. >> >> I wonder what solutions could be implemented on future >> installs to prevent this from happening? >> >> Aloha, >> >> Lou Russo >> Owner >> lou at spreesolarsystems.com >> Office - 808 345 6762 >> Spree Solar Systems LLC >> CT-34322 >> >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 11:45 AM Jason Szumlanski via >> RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> I think it's more likely water in a J-box or possibly >> physical damage, but someone passed by the property and >> did not observe any physical damage to the array. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 5:41 PM Jay >> wrote: >> >> Jason >> What’s the possibllity it was a lighting strike? >> >> Jay >> >>> On Oct 10, 2024, at 2:57 PM, Jason Szumlanski via >>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>>  >>> We have been talking a lot recently about >>> all-in-ones. I just had a massive fail during >>> Hurricane Milton with a quad Sol-Ark 15K off-grid >>> system that deserves some discussion about whether >>> AIO is a good idea if it can't build in some >>> resilience to errors. I'm not sure if the new >>> Midnite unit is better in this respect, but this is >>> what happened to the Sol-Ark system... >>> >>> Four inverters, each with 4 strings of PV paralleled >>> to 2 MPPT per inverter. One of the slave units >>> developed some sort of PV DC fault during the storm. >>> This caused the slave inverter to shut down and >>> throw an error, which in turn caused a parallel >>> fault across all four inverters. Power output ceases >>> at that point. Apparently the system keeps resetting >>> because I have a cell modem that uploads data to >>> Sol-Ark, but that cell modem is powered by the >>> inverter outputs, so it must be getting power at >>> least intermittently. The rest of the loads are >>> basically flatlined according to the Sol-Ark data. >>> It's mostly air conditioners, so they probably can't >>> turn on fast enough before the PV fault causes >>> another shutdown. >>> >>> So, in essence, one of 16 strings of PV develops a >>> fault, and that causes all four inverters to >>> malfunction? What is the point of redundancy if a >>> fault of one results in a fault of all?! If there is >>> a true PV input fault, shouldn't that just shut down >>> that MPPT, or perhaps all of the PV DC input to that >>> inverter? And why can't this inverter continue to >>> invert power from the batteries and charge from a >>> generator when there is a DC input fault that could >>> be programmatically isolated and ignored? >>> >>> This is a bad design in my opinion, and something I >>> hadn't considered. If the faulted inverter can't >>> function with a DC input fault, it should just take >>> itself out of the game. (This is 120/240 split >>> phase, BTW). Is this how all AIO inverters work? One >>> inverter fault on the DC side kills all paralleled >>> units' AC output? Not good. >>> >>> This is a completely off-grid system on a remote >>> island with no vehicle access, so it's not exactly >>> easy to do a "truck roll" on this one, especially >>> post-hurricane. To make matters worse, the generator >>> was running at the time of the fault, as it was >>> being signaled to run because the battery had >>> reached the assigned charge voltage. The fault also >>> killed the 2-wire start signal from the master, so >>> the system also stopped passing through generator >>> power to the loads. The house is dark. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one >>> doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one >> doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >> work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Oct 11 18:37:56 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2024 18:37:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] All-In-Ones / Sol-Ark fail In-Reply-To: References: <8da6bfae-5f10-4c7d-b921-23f678b650a6@solarray.com> Message-ID: I'll double-check that, but I have a site with an undersized PV system and I'm pretty certain it reaches shutoff regularly and recovers without intervention. On Fri, Oct 11, 2024, 6:22 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Interesting, because that has not been my experience, and Solark confirmed > that when the inverter shuts down, the PV charging does too. Maybe that > has changed in a firmware update. Or possibly, the inverter went through > LBCO on the output as you mentioned, then dropped further through the night > to shut down completely by the next morning. Either way, the system has > required manually resetting to start charging again. > > Ray Walters > On 10/11/2024 3:57 PM, Chris Sparadeo wrote: > > Hi Ray, > > I don’t think your understanding of the Sol Ark’s PV and LBCO relationship > reflects actual functionality. Technically, Sol Ark doesn’t have a formal > LBCO, but it has a “shut down” setting that cuts out AC output and can be > programmed to cut off and cut back in at selected SOC or voltage settings, > but as long as the battery is connected, the Sol Ark sees that voltage and > PV production if available, solar production will recharge batteries, > regardless of AC output. > > But yes, I agrees that AIO’s could use a healthy dose of redundancy to > allow for less fickle output. > > -Chris > > On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 5:26 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Another reason to do separate charge controllers is Low battery. If the >> AIO inverter hits its LBCO, then it takes out the PV input as well. Then >> the draw of the BCM takes what's left in the battery, and you're into a >> dark start. Generator won't even help. AIOs are easy to install, but not >> as full proof as DC coupled PV systems. Also, the inter communication is a >> major issue. I've seen inter connected charge controllers take each other >> out, which really defeats the redundancy of having multiple units. I'm >> sure many on the list will question my wisdom; but I usually don't >> interconnect any of the equipment from a comms stand point. I use open >> loop charging based on voltage. >> >> I once had a pinched temp sensor, that thought the batteries were at 5000 >> deg Kelvin. It shut all 4 inverters down. My most reliable multiple >> inverter setup is a four SW4048 system that is now 24 years old. Each >> inverter feeds one leg of two load centers. No comms, No 240 vac loads. >> No shut downs. That is the gold standard, and none of the AIO stuff, nor >> the module level rapid shutdown etc, can even get close to the level of >> reliability we had in the past. In the off grid world, shut downs can be >> life threatening, and all the additional "safety" stuff added to the code >> since, has actually made my off grid customers less safe. >> >> You have to think what happens if the battery gets low, and no one is >> home? Can it recover on its own, like a traditional DC coupled Lead acid >> system? Basically, If the system can't hit LBCO, recharge the next day, >> and automatically turn loads back on, we've gone backwards in our designs, >> and equipment selection. AIOs are inferior if they can't achieve this basic >> functionality. If UL standards are causing this, then those standards are >> incorrect for critical off grid and backup applications. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> On 10/10/2024 4:02 PM, Eric Smiley via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Install stand-alone charge controllers. That is the only way to get >> redundancy. >> >> Eric Smiley (he/him) - Design Manager >> >> 250.703.6004 >> eric at vecoop.ca >> 888.386.0116 >> 3-4997 Polkey Rd, Duncan BC, V9L 6W3 >> >> viridiansolar.ca >> >> >> >> >> Viridian Solar honours the ancestral grounds on which we live and provide >> services, recognising that these lands are unceded Indigenous territory. We >> are steadfast in our commitment to reconciliation and acknowledge the rich >> history and traditions that characterise this land that we all consider >> home. >> >> >> >> On Thu, 10 Oct 2024 at 14:59, Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Aloha All, >>> >>> Thank you Jason. This is a huge and surprising issue. So much so that I >>> dropped what I was doing and called Sol-Ark to confirm. Mind you this was >>> level 1 support, but I was told this is what the Sol-Arks are supposed to >>> do and it is a feature not a bug. Their take is if there is any fault on >>> any one string, the Sol-Ark assumes the worst and shuts everything down. >>> >>> I wonder what solutions could be implemented on future installs to >>> prevent this from happening? >>> >>> Aloha, >>> >>> Lou Russo >>> Owner >>> lou at spreesolarsystems.com >>> Office - 808 345 6762 >>> Spree Solar Systems LLC >>> CT-34322 >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 11:45 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I think it's more likely water in a J-box or possibly physical damage, >>>> but someone passed by the property and did not observe any physical damage >>>> to the array. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 5:41 PM Jay wrote: >>>> >>>>> Jason >>>>> What’s the possibllity it was a lighting strike? >>>>> >>>>> Jay >>>>> >>>>> On Oct 10, 2024, at 2:57 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>  >>>>> We have been talking a lot recently about all-in-ones. I just had a >>>>> massive fail during Hurricane Milton with a quad Sol-Ark 15K off-grid >>>>> system that deserves some discussion about whether AIO is a good idea if it >>>>> can't build in some resilience to errors. I'm not sure if the new Midnite >>>>> unit is better in this respect, but this is what happened to the Sol-Ark >>>>> system... >>>>> >>>>> Four inverters, each with 4 strings of PV paralleled to 2 MPPT per >>>>> inverter. One of the slave units developed some sort of PV DC fault during >>>>> the storm. This caused the slave inverter to shut down and throw an error, >>>>> which in turn caused a parallel fault across all four inverters. Power >>>>> output ceases at that point. Apparently the system keeps resetting because >>>>> I have a cell modem that uploads data to Sol-Ark, but that cell modem is >>>>> powered by the inverter outputs, so it must be getting power at least >>>>> intermittently. The rest of the loads are basically flatlined according to >>>>> the Sol-Ark data. It's mostly air conditioners, so they probably can't turn >>>>> on fast enough before the PV fault causes another shutdown. >>>>> >>>>> So, in essence, one of 16 strings of PV develops a fault, and that >>>>> causes all four inverters to malfunction? What is the point of redundancy >>>>> if a fault of one results in a fault of all?! If there is a true PV input >>>>> fault, shouldn't that just shut down that MPPT, or perhaps all of the PV DC >>>>> input to that inverter? And why can't this inverter continue to invert >>>>> power from the batteries and charge from a generator when there is a DC >>>>> input fault that could be programmatically isolated and ignored? >>>>> >>>>> This is a bad design in my opinion, and something I hadn't considered. >>>>> If the faulted inverter can't function with a DC input fault, it should >>>>> just take itself out of the game. (This is 120/240 split phase, BTW). Is >>>>> this how all AIO inverters work? One inverter fault on the DC side kills >>>>> all paralleled units' AC output? Not good. >>>>> >>>>> This is a completely off-grid system on a remote island with no >>>>> vehicle access, so it's not exactly easy to do a "truck roll" on this one, >>>>> especially post-hurricane. To make matters worse, the generator was running >>>>> at the time of the fault, as it was being signaled to run because the >>>>> battery had reached the assigned charge voltage. The fault also killed the >>>>> 2-wire start signal from the master, so the system also stopped passing >>>>> through generator power to the loads. The house is dark. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Oct 14 15:55:05 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2024 13:55:05 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback power FM 100 issue Message-ID: <073398F4-9E6F-4896-A496-948A09C8B746@gmail.com> HI All, I’ve got a FM 100 that is maybe 2 yrs old, and the cooling fan control isn’t working. The fan is fine. No errors in the menu. FET temp was 75, too hot to touch the heat sink. Has anyone else had this issue? My fix is to use the AUX relay to power the fan if OB won’t fit it. I don’t know if I’ll ever get anyone from OB on the phone. thanks jay From toddcory at finestplanet.com Mon Oct 14 18:36:15 2024 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2024 15:36:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback power FM 100 issue In-Reply-To: <073398F4-9E6F-4896-A496-948A09C8B746@gmail.com> References: <073398F4-9E6F-4896-A496-948A09C8B746@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1728945375.77455933@webmail.finestplanet.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: img-0.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 176402 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Oct 14 18:38:37 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2024 16:38:37 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback power FM 100 issue In-Reply-To: <1728945375.77455933@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <1728945375.77455933@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: Hi Todd That’s creative for sure! Not sure how I’d do that on the fm 100. Jay > On Oct 14, 2024, at 4:36 PM, Todd Cory via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > This works too. > > Todd > > > > On Monday, October 14, 2024 12:55pm, "jay via RE-wrenches" said: > > > HI All, > > > > I’ve got a FM 100 that is maybe 2 yrs old, and the cooling fan control > > isn’t working. > > The fan is fine. > > > > No errors in the menu. > > > > FET temp was 75, too hot to touch the heat sink. > > > > Has anyone else had this issue? > > > > My fix is to use the AUX relay to power the fan if OB won’t fit it. > > > > I don’t know if I’ll ever get anyone from OB on the phone. > > > > thanks > > > > jay > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Oct 14 23:09:45 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2024 23:09:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] All-In-Ones / Sol-Ark fail In-Reply-To: References: <8da6bfae-5f10-4c7d-b921-23f678b650a6@solarray.com> Message-ID: I confirmed it - the Sol-Ark will start charging when PV is available even after the Shutoff voltage is reached. It will start inverting again when the Restart setpoint is reached. Jason On Fri, Oct 11, 2024, 6:37 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I'll double-check that, but I have a site with an undersized PV system and > I'm pretty certain it reaches shutoff regularly and recovers without > intervention. > > > > On Fri, Oct 11, 2024, 6:22 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Interesting, because that has not been my experience, and Solark >> confirmed that when the inverter shuts down, the PV charging does too. >> Maybe that has changed in a firmware update. Or possibly, the inverter >> went through LBCO on the output as you mentioned, then dropped further >> through the night to shut down completely by the next morning. Either way, >> the system has required manually resetting to start charging again. >> >> Ray Walters >> On 10/11/2024 3:57 PM, Chris Sparadeo wrote: >> >> Hi Ray, >> >> I don’t think your understanding of the Sol Ark’s PV and LBCO >> relationship reflects actual functionality. Technically, Sol Ark doesn’t >> have a formal LBCO, but it has a “shut down” setting that cuts out AC >> output and can be programmed to cut off and cut back in at selected SOC or >> voltage settings, but as long as the battery is connected, the Sol Ark >> sees that voltage and PV production if available, solar production will >> recharge batteries, regardless of AC output. >> >> But yes, I agrees that AIO’s could use a healthy dose of redundancy to >> allow for less fickle output. >> >> -Chris >> >> On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 5:26 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Another reason to do separate charge controllers is Low battery. If the >>> AIO inverter hits its LBCO, then it takes out the PV input as well. Then >>> the draw of the BCM takes what's left in the battery, and you're into a >>> dark start. Generator won't even help. AIOs are easy to install, but not >>> as full proof as DC coupled PV systems. Also, the inter communication is a >>> major issue. I've seen inter connected charge controllers take each other >>> out, which really defeats the redundancy of having multiple units. I'm >>> sure many on the list will question my wisdom; but I usually don't >>> interconnect any of the equipment from a comms stand point. I use open >>> loop charging based on voltage. >>> >>> I once had a pinched temp sensor, that thought the batteries were at >>> 5000 deg Kelvin. It shut all 4 inverters down. My most reliable multiple >>> inverter setup is a four SW4048 system that is now 24 years old. Each >>> inverter feeds one leg of two load centers. No comms, No 240 vac loads. >>> No shut downs. That is the gold standard, and none of the AIO stuff, nor >>> the module level rapid shutdown etc, can even get close to the level of >>> reliability we had in the past. In the off grid world, shut downs can be >>> life threatening, and all the additional "safety" stuff added to the code >>> since, has actually made my off grid customers less safe. >>> >>> You have to think what happens if the battery gets low, and no one is >>> home? Can it recover on its own, like a traditional DC coupled Lead acid >>> system? Basically, If the system can't hit LBCO, recharge the next day, >>> and automatically turn loads back on, we've gone backwards in our designs, >>> and equipment selection. AIOs are inferior if they can't achieve this basic >>> functionality. If UL standards are causing this, then those standards are >>> incorrect for critical off grid and backup applications. >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> On 10/10/2024 4:02 PM, Eric Smiley via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Install stand-alone charge controllers. That is the only way to get >>> redundancy. >>> >>> Eric Smiley (he/him) - Design Manager >>> >>> 250.703.6004 >>> eric at vecoop.ca >>> 888.386.0116 >>> 3-4997 Polkey Rd, Duncan BC, V9L 6W3 >>> >>> viridiansolar.ca >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Viridian Solar honours the ancestral grounds on which we live and >>> provide services, recognising that these lands are unceded Indigenous >>> territory. We are steadfast in our commitment to reconciliation and >>> acknowledge the rich history and traditions that characterise this land >>> that we all consider home. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, 10 Oct 2024 at 14:59, Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Aloha All, >>>> >>>> Thank you Jason. This is a huge and surprising issue. So much so that I >>>> dropped what I was doing and called Sol-Ark to confirm. Mind you this was >>>> level 1 support, but I was told this is what the Sol-Arks are supposed to >>>> do and it is a feature not a bug. Their take is if there is any fault on >>>> any one string, the Sol-Ark assumes the worst and shuts everything down. >>>> >>>> I wonder what solutions could be implemented on future installs to >>>> prevent this from happening? >>>> >>>> Aloha, >>>> >>>> Lou Russo >>>> Owner >>>> lou at spreesolarsystems.com >>>> Office - 808 345 6762 >>>> Spree Solar Systems LLC >>>> CT-34322 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 11:45 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I think it's more likely water in a J-box or possibly physical damage, >>>>> but someone passed by the property and did not observe any physical damage >>>>> to the array. >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 5:41 PM Jay wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Jason >>>>>> What’s the possibllity it was a lighting strike? >>>>>> >>>>>> Jay >>>>>> >>>>>> On Oct 10, 2024, at 2:57 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>  >>>>>> We have been talking a lot recently about all-in-ones. I just had a >>>>>> massive fail during Hurricane Milton with a quad Sol-Ark 15K off-grid >>>>>> system that deserves some discussion about whether AIO is a good idea if it >>>>>> can't build in some resilience to errors. I'm not sure if the new Midnite >>>>>> unit is better in this respect, but this is what happened to the Sol-Ark >>>>>> system... >>>>>> >>>>>> Four inverters, each with 4 strings of PV paralleled to 2 MPPT per >>>>>> inverter. One of the slave units developed some sort of PV DC fault during >>>>>> the storm. This caused the slave inverter to shut down and throw an error, >>>>>> which in turn caused a parallel fault across all four inverters. Power >>>>>> output ceases at that point. Apparently the system keeps resetting because >>>>>> I have a cell modem that uploads data to Sol-Ark, but that cell modem is >>>>>> powered by the inverter outputs, so it must be getting power at least >>>>>> intermittently. The rest of the loads are basically flatlined according to >>>>>> the Sol-Ark data. It's mostly air conditioners, so they probably can't turn >>>>>> on fast enough before the PV fault causes another shutdown. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, in essence, one of 16 strings of PV develops a fault, and that >>>>>> causes all four inverters to malfunction? What is the point of redundancy >>>>>> if a fault of one results in a fault of all?! If there is a true PV input >>>>>> fault, shouldn't that just shut down that MPPT, or perhaps all of the PV DC >>>>>> input to that inverter? And why can't this inverter continue to invert >>>>>> power from the batteries and charge from a generator when there is a DC >>>>>> input fault that could be programmatically isolated and ignored? >>>>>> >>>>>> This is a bad design in my opinion, and something I hadn't >>>>>> considered. If the faulted inverter can't function with a DC input fault, >>>>>> it should just take itself out of the game. (This is 120/240 split phase, >>>>>> BTW). Is this how all AIO inverters work? One inverter fault on the DC side >>>>>> kills all paralleled units' AC output? Not good. >>>>>> >>>>>> This is a completely off-grid system on a remote island with no >>>>>> vehicle access, so it's not exactly easy to do a "truck roll" on this one, >>>>>> especially post-hurricane. To make matters worse, the generator was running >>>>>> at the time of the fault, as it was being signaled to run because the >>>>>> battery had reached the assigned charge voltage. The fault also killed the >>>>>> 2-wire start signal from the master, so the system also stopped passing >>>>>> through generator power to the loads. The house is dark. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Oct 14 23:18:37 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2024 23:18:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] All-In-Ones / Sol-Ark fail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Diagnosis: No broken panels. Two different issues. We found a broken MC4 connector, possibly due to flying debris. We also found a melted Polaris tap that got wet (long story, our fault). These two issues happened at seeming the exact same time during the hurricane, but were completely different events. The next morning it caused faults on two of four inverters when the sun came up, and the other two inverters faulted out as "parallel faults." That's a behavior that seems unacceptable. Neither of the initially faulted inverters were the master, either. One bad PV string on one out of four inverters should not cause a total system failure to operate. Jason On Fri, Oct 11, 2024, 3:59 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > That is the exact error! But I don't think that explains how I have one > string over the expected voltage and one string under. It's definitely > worth checking, nonetheless. This array is 12 feet in the air and pitched > at 5 degrees, so you can't see the glass from the ground. > > It is conceivable that I have two issues. The voltage issue could be a > wiring issue and the inverters may have faulted out due to broken modules. > There were tropical force winds there at the time. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 3:49 PM Maverick Brown > wrote: > >> Jason >> >> Which fault are you getting? >> >> This spring I was getting F23-Tz_GFCLO randomly on an upper roof array. >> >> After further investigation, I found several modules with broken glass. >> After replacing the mods, all is well. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Maverick >> >> Maverick Brown >> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 >> Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. >> • Solar Commander Remote Power >> • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection >> maverick at mavericksolar.com >> 512-460-9825 >> >> >> >> On Oct 11, 2024, at 1:39 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> By shutting off the PV disconnects on the two affected inverters we were >> able to make the system work successfully today. As I mentioned, we will >> dig into the actual faults on Monday. From the historical data, I found >> that this issue has actually been going on for a week before the faults >> started happening in the inverters. I'm not sure why the faults took so >> long to cause a shutdown of the inverters. Maybe it just "got worse" and >> finally triggered a fault. The first faults would have been during the >> early band of rain from Hurricane Milton, so possibly water or wind put the >> issue over the top. >> >> Before the shutdown, each of the two affected inverters had one MPPT with >> voltages out of the expected range for the last week. >> >> All MPPT strings are 14 modules with 7 in series, 2 in parallel. Each >> string Voc is 342V and Vmp is 297V. >> >> On the first affected inverter, I was able to observe the bad string >> operating consistently around 370V to 400V+, which is obviously well above >> the Voc (and it's hot here in Florida). The good string on this inverter >> operated around 260-270V during the same time, which is the expected range. >> >> On the second affected inverter, I observed the bad string operating >> consistently around 100V to 130V+. The good string on this inverter >> operated around 260-270V during the same time, which again is the expected >> range. >> >> Graphs are attached for those of you who like that kind of stuff. These >> show a typical day after the issue started to occur, but before the >> inverter faults occurred. >> >> Incidentally, the average voltage of the two bad strings seems to be >> pretty close to the normal strings, so that is a good clue. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 6:55 AM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> More interesting information... When the sun went down last night, the >>> fault cleared and the inverters started producing power again, drawing from >>> the batteries, and restarting the generator. The master inverter >>> "remembered" the generator was in it's charging cycle and hadn't reached >>> full battery yet. >>> >>> It's good that the inverters started inverting again. That's a plus. I >>> actually wish the generator hadn't started because it was unnecessary based >>> on battery voltage, which was near full anyway. >>> >>> Which brings me to another annoying behavior of the Sol-Arks that I >>> discovered in how the GEN Charge and GRID Charge parameters work with >>> signaling the two-wire start. If the battery voltage is 50V and the charge >>> parameter is set to 49V, the generator signal will not kick on of course – >>> the generator start relay is open. However, if you change the charge >>> parameter setpoint to, say 51V, the generator should start because the >>> battery voltage is below the setpoint. But that does not happen. The >>> battery voltage must "fall through" the parameter setting for the charging >>> to be triggered and the relay to close. If you are in a situation where you >>> need to get the generator on a charge cycle and then leave the site, the >>> only way I have found to do this is to set it to something very close to >>> the battery voltage, say 49.9V, put a heavy load on to drop the voltage >>> below the setpoint, let the generator start, then change the setpoint to >>> the desired 51V. >>> >>> >>> Back to the original issue – I dug into the string voltage data history >>> remotely and narrowed down the fault to two of the four inverters. I am >>> sending someone to shut down the PV DC switches on these two inverters >>> today in hopes that we can keep the power flowing during the day and >>> through the weekend. I'm planning on a Monday boat ride out there to see >>> what caused the fault(s). I will report back. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 6:00 PM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Aloha All, >>>> >>>> Thank you Jason. This is a huge and surprising issue. So much so that I >>>> dropped what I was doing and called Sol-Ark to confirm. Mind you this was >>>> level 1 support, but I was told this is what the Sol-Arks are supposed to >>>> do and it is a feature not a bug. Their take is if there is any fault on >>>> any one string, the Sol-Ark assumes the worst and shuts everything down. >>>> >>>> I wonder what solutions could be implemented on future installs to >>>> prevent this from happening? >>>> >>>> Aloha, >>>> >>>> Lou Russo >>>> Owner >>>> lou at spreesolarsystems.com >>>> Office - 808 345 6762 >>>> Spree Solar Systems LLC >>>> CT-34322 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 11:45 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I think it's more likely water in a J-box or possibly physical damage, >>>>> but someone passed by the property and did not observe any physical damage >>>>> to the array. >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 5:41 PM Jay wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Jason >>>>>> What’s the possibllity it was a lighting strike? >>>>>> >>>>>> Jay >>>>>> >>>>>> On Oct 10, 2024, at 2:57 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>  >>>>>> We have been talking a lot recently about all-in-ones. I just had a >>>>>> massive fail during Hurricane Milton with a quad Sol-Ark 15K off-grid >>>>>> system that deserves some discussion about whether AIO is a good idea if it >>>>>> can't build in some resilience to errors. I'm not sure if the new Midnite >>>>>> unit is better in this respect, but this is what happened to the Sol-Ark >>>>>> system... >>>>>> >>>>>> Four inverters, each with 4 strings of PV paralleled to 2 MPPT per >>>>>> inverter. One of the slave units developed some sort of PV DC fault during >>>>>> the storm. This caused the slave inverter to shut down and throw an error, >>>>>> which in turn caused a parallel fault across all four inverters. Power >>>>>> output ceases at that point. Apparently the system keeps resetting because >>>>>> I have a cell modem that uploads data to Sol-Ark, but that cell modem is >>>>>> powered by the inverter outputs, so it must be getting power at least >>>>>> intermittently. The rest of the loads are basically flatlined according to >>>>>> the Sol-Ark data. It's mostly air conditioners, so they probably can't turn >>>>>> on fast enough before the PV fault causes another shutdown. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, in essence, one of 16 strings of PV develops a fault, and that >>>>>> causes all four inverters to malfunction? What is the point of redundancy >>>>>> if a fault of one results in a fault of all?! If there is a true PV input >>>>>> fault, shouldn't that just shut down that MPPT, or perhaps all of the PV DC >>>>>> input to that inverter? And why can't this inverter continue to invert >>>>>> power from the batteries and charge from a generator when there is a DC >>>>>> input fault that could be programmatically isolated and ignored? >>>>>> >>>>>> This is a bad design in my opinion, and something I hadn't >>>>>> considered. If the faulted inverter can't function with a DC input fault, >>>>>> it should just take itself out of the game. (This is 120/240 split phase, >>>>>> BTW). Is this how all AIO inverters work? One inverter fault on the DC side >>>>>> kills all paralleled units' AC output? Not good. >>>>>> >>>>>> This is a completely off-grid system on a remote island with no >>>>>> vehicle access, so it's not exactly easy to do a "truck roll" on this one, >>>>>> especially post-hurricane. To make matters worse, the generator was running >>>>>> at the time of the fault, as it was being signaled to run because the >>>>>> battery had reached the assigned charge voltage. The fault also killed the >>>>>> 2-wire start signal from the master, so the system also stopped passing >>>>>> through generator power to the loads. The house is dark. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Oct 15 00:57:08 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2024 21:57:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] All-In-Ones / Sol-Ark fail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason: Thanks for the follow-up. Two thoughts: 1. I agree that a PV problem should not cause a system shutdown. I seem to recall Sol-Arc said they can’t do anything to correct the issue due to listing/testing issues. This alone would prevent me from choosing Sol-Arc. There is a lot of design history that goes against the all-in-one approach. For example, I remember as a teenager I got interested in stereo equipment. The logic was developing that rather than having a console stereo, separate components offered more flexibility and reliability: More flexible because you weren’t stuck with a given collection of components and more reliable because if one component failed, you had less to repair or replace. The same logic also applies to the one big inverter versus several small inverters discussion. 2. You mentioned you had bypass capabilities but no person to activate it. I’ve had this idea for a while: If one has a generator as part of a battery/inverter system, and reliability is critical--why not add an Automatic Transfer switch right before the loads with the inverter as the normal input and the generator as the emergency input? The generator still feeds the inverter system for normal operation, but if the inverter system errors out, the ATS can start the generator and activate the bypass-- all unattended. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Monday, October 14, 2024 8:19 PM *To:* Maverick Brown *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] All-In-Ones / Sol-Ark fail Diagnosis: No broken panels. Two different issues. We found a broken MC4 connector, possibly due to flying debris. We also found a melted Polaris tap that got wet (long story, our fault). These two issues happened at seeming the exact same time during the hurricane, but were completely different events. The next morning it caused faults on two of four inverters when the sun came up, and the other two inverters faulted out as "parallel faults." That's a behavior that seems unacceptable. Neither of the initially faulted inverters were the master, either. One bad PV string on one out of four inverters should not cause a total system failure to operate. Jason On Fri, Oct 11, 2024, 3:59 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: That is the exact error! But I don't think that explains how I have one string over the expected voltage and one string under. It's definitely worth checking, nonetheless. This array is 12 feet in the air and pitched at 5 degrees, so you can't see the glass from the ground. It is conceivable that I have two issues. The voltage issue could be a wiring issue and the inverters may have faulted out due to broken modules. There were tropical force winds there at the time. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 3:49 PM Maverick Brown wrote: Jason Which fault are you getting? This spring I was getting F23-Tz_GFCLO randomly on an upper roof array. After further investigation, I found several modules with broken glass. After replacing the mods, all is well. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 On Oct 11, 2024, at 1:39 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:  By shutting off the PV disconnects on the two affected inverters we were able to make the system work successfully today. As I mentioned, we will dig into the actual faults on Monday. From the historical data, I found that this issue has actually been going on for a week before the faults started happening in the inverters. I'm not sure why the faults took so long to cause a shutdown of the inverters. Maybe it just "got worse" and finally triggered a fault. The first faults would have been during the early band of rain from Hurricane Milton, so possibly water or wind put the issue over the top. Before the shutdown, each of the two affected inverters had one MPPT with voltages out of the expected range for the last week. All MPPT strings are 14 modules with 7 in series, 2 in parallel. Each string Voc is 342V and Vmp is 297V. On the first affected inverter, I was able to observe the bad string operating consistently around 370V to 400V+, which is obviously well above the Voc (and it's hot here in Florida). The good string on this inverter operated around 260-270V during the same time, which is the expected range. On the second affected inverter, I observed the bad string operating consistently around 100V to 130V+. The good string on this inverter operated around 260-270V during the same time, which again is the expected range. Graphs are attached for those of you who like that kind of stuff. These show a typical day after the issue started to occur, but before the inverter faults occurred. Incidentally, the average voltage of the two bad strings seems to be pretty close to the normal strings, so that is a good clue. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 *Error! Filename not specified.* On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 6:55 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: More interesting information... When the sun went down last night, the fault cleared and the inverters started producing power again, drawing from the batteries, and restarting the generator. The master inverter "remembered" the generator was in it's charging cycle and hadn't reached full battery yet. It's good that the inverters started inverting again. That's a plus. I actually wish the generator hadn't started because it was unnecessary based on battery voltage, which was near full anyway. Which brings me to another annoying behavior of the Sol-Arks that I discovered in how the GEN Charge and GRID Charge parameters work with signaling the two-wire start. If the battery voltage is 50V and the charge parameter is set to 49V, the generator signal will not kick on of course – the generator start relay is open. However, if you change the charge parameter setpoint to, say 51V, the generator should start because the battery voltage is below the setpoint. But that does not happen. The battery voltage must "fall through" the parameter setting for the charging to be triggered and the relay to close. If you are in a situation where you need to get the generator on a charge cycle and then leave the site, the only way I have found to do this is to set it to something very close to the battery voltage, say 49.9V, put a heavy load on to drop the voltage below the setpoint, let the generator start, then change the setpoint to the desired 51V. Back to the original issue – I dug into the string voltage data history remotely and narrowed down the fault to two of the four inverters. I am sending someone to shut down the PV DC switches on these two inverters today in hopes that we can keep the power flowing during the day and through the weekend. I'm planning on a Monday boat ride out there to see what caused the fault(s). I will report back. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 6:00 PM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Aloha All, Thank you Jason. This is a huge and surprising issue. So much so that I dropped what I was doing and called Sol-Ark to confirm. Mind you this was level 1 support, but I was told this is what the Sol-Arks are supposed to do and it is a feature not a bug. Their take is if there is any fault on any one string, the Sol-Ark assumes the worst and shuts everything down. I wonder what solutions could be implemented on future installs to prevent this from happening? Aloha, Lou Russo Owner lou at spreesolarsystems.com Office - 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 11:45 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: I think it's more likely water in a J-box or possibly physical damage, but someone passed by the property and did not observe any physical damage to the array. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 5:41 PM Jay wrote: Jason What’s the possibllity it was a lighting strike? Jay On Oct 10, 2024, at 2:57 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:  We have been talking a lot recently about all-in-ones. I just had a massive fail during Hurricane Milton with a quad Sol-Ark 15K off-grid system that deserves some discussion about whether AIO is a good idea if it can't build in some resilience to errors. I'm not sure if the new Midnite unit is better in this respect, but this is what happened to the Sol-Ark system... Four inverters, each with 4 strings of PV paralleled to 2 MPPT per inverter. One of the slave units developed some sort of PV DC fault during the storm. This caused the slave inverter to shut down and throw an error, which in turn caused a parallel fault across all four inverters. Power output ceases at that point. Apparently the system keeps resetting because I have a cell modem that uploads data to Sol-Ark, but that cell modem is powered by the inverter outputs, so it must be getting power at least intermittently. The rest of the loads are basically flatlined according to the Sol-Ark data. It's mostly air conditioners, so they probably can't turn on fast enough before the PV fault causes another shutdown. So, in essence, one of 16 strings of PV develops a fault, and that causes all four inverters to malfunction? What is the point of redundancy if a fault of one results in a fault of all?! If there is a true PV input fault, shouldn't that just shut down that MPPT, or perhaps all of the PV DC input to that inverter? And why can't this inverter continue to invert power from the batteries and charge from a generator when there is a DC input fault that could be programmatically isolated and ignored? This is a bad design in my opinion, and something I hadn't considered. If the faulted inverter can't function with a DC input fault, it should just take itself out of the game. (This is 120/240 split phase, BTW). Is this how all AIO inverters work? One inverter fault on the DC side kills all paralleled units' AC output? Not good. This is a completely off-grid system on a remote island with no vehicle access, so it's not exactly easy to do a "truck roll" on this one, especially post-hurricane. To make matters worse, the generator was running at the time of the fault, as it was being signaled to run because the battery had reached the assigned charge voltage. The fault also killed the 2-wire start signal from the master, so the system also stopped passing through generator power to the loads. The house is dark. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Tue Oct 15 02:08:08 2024 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 02:08:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] All-In-Ones / Sol-Ark fail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: William, This is exactly the approach I've used in the off grid aio install I just completed, specifically for reliability in the event of a system failure with no one present. It works perfectly. Since there is no Bullitt in bypass switch, this is a standard item in all my battery based systems, whether on or off grid, now. I let my client decide whether they want to spring for the automatic transfer switch or stick with a less expensive manual transfer. But one or the other is standard or else the backed up loads become captive to a system failure. Howie On Tue, Oct 15, 2024, 1:08 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jason: > > > > Thanks for the follow-up. Two thoughts: > > > > 1. I agree that a PV problem should not cause a system shutdown. I > seem to recall Sol-Arc said they can’t do anything to correct the issue due > to listing/testing issues. This alone would prevent me from choosing > Sol-Arc. There is a lot of design history that goes against the all-in-one > approach. For example, I remember as a teenager I got interested in stereo > equipment. The logic was developing that rather than having a console > stereo, separate components offered more flexibility and reliability: More > flexible because you weren’t stuck with a given collection of components > and more reliable because if one component failed, you had less to repair > or replace. The same logic also applies to the one big inverter versus > several small inverters discussion. > > 2. You mentioned you had bypass capabilities but no person to activate > it. I’ve had this idea for a while: If one has a generator as part of a > battery/inverter system, and reliability is critical--why not add an > Automatic Transfer switch right before the loads with the inverter as the > normal input and the generator as the emergency input? The generator still > feeds the inverter system for normal operation, but if the inverter system > errors out, the ATS can start the generator and activate the bypass-- all > unattended. > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Monday, October 14, 2024 8:19 PM > *To:* Maverick Brown > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski; RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] All-In-Ones / Sol-Ark fail > > > > Diagnosis: No broken panels. Two different issues. We found a broken MC4 > connector, possibly due to flying debris. We also found a melted Polaris > tap that got wet (long story, our fault). > > > > These two issues happened at seeming the exact same time during the > hurricane, but were completely different events. The next morning it caused > faults on two of four inverters when the sun came up, and the other two > inverters faulted out as "parallel faults." That's a behavior that seems > unacceptable. Neither of the initially faulted inverters were the master, > either. > > > > One bad PV string on one out of four inverters should not cause a total > system failure to operate. > > > > Jason > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 11, 2024, 3:59 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > That is the exact error! But I don't think that explains how I have one > string over the expected voltage and one string under. It's definitely > worth checking, nonetheless. This array is 12 feet in the air and pitched > at 5 degrees, so you can't see the glass from the ground. > > > > It is conceivable that I have two issues. The voltage issue could be a > wiring issue and the inverters may have faulted out due to broken modules. > There were tropical force winds there at the time. > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 3:49 PM Maverick Brown > wrote: > > Jason > > > > Which fault are you getting? > > > > This spring I was getting F23-Tz_GFCLO randomly on an upper roof array. > > > > After further investigation, I found several modules with broken glass. > After replacing the mods, all is well. > > > > Thank you, > > > > Maverick > > > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > > > > > > > On Oct 11, 2024, at 1:39 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > By shutting off the PV disconnects on the two affected inverters we were > able to make the system work successfully today. As I mentioned, we will > dig into the actual faults on Monday. From the historical data, I found > that this issue has actually been going on for a week before the faults > started happening in the inverters. I'm not sure why the faults took so > long to cause a shutdown of the inverters. Maybe it just "got worse" and > finally triggered a fault. The first faults would have been during the > early band of rain from Hurricane Milton, so possibly water or wind put the > issue over the top. > > > > Before the shutdown, each of the two affected inverters had one MPPT with > voltages out of the expected range for the last week. > > > > All MPPT strings are 14 modules with 7 in series, 2 in parallel. Each > string Voc is 342V and Vmp is 297V. > > > > On the first affected inverter, I was able to observe the bad string > operating consistently around 370V to 400V+, which is obviously well above > the Voc (and it's hot here in Florida). The good string on this inverter > operated around 260-270V during the same time, which is the expected range. > > > > On the second affected inverter, I observed the bad string operating > consistently around 100V to 130V+. The good string on this inverter > operated around 260-270V during the same time, which again is the expected > range. > > > > Graphs are attached for those of you who like that kind of stuff. These > show a typical day after the issue started to occur, but before the > inverter faults occurred. > > > > Incidentally, the average voltage of the two bad strings seems to be > pretty close to the normal strings, so that is a good clue. > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > > > *Error! Filename not specified.* > > On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 6:55 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > More interesting information... When the sun went down last night, the > fault cleared and the inverters started producing power again, drawing from > the batteries, and restarting the generator. The master inverter > "remembered" the generator was in it's charging cycle and hadn't reached > full battery yet. > > > > It's good that the inverters started inverting again. That's a plus. I > actually wish the generator hadn't started because it was unnecessary based > on battery voltage, which was near full anyway. > > > > Which brings me to another annoying behavior of the Sol-Arks that I > discovered in how the GEN Charge and GRID Charge parameters work with > signaling the two-wire start. If the battery voltage is 50V and the charge > parameter is set to 49V, the generator signal will not kick on of course – > the generator start relay is open. However, if you change the charge > parameter setpoint to, say 51V, the generator should start because the > battery voltage is below the setpoint. But that does not happen. The > battery voltage must "fall through" the parameter setting for the charging > to be triggered and the relay to close. If you are in a situation where you > need to get the generator on a charge cycle and then leave the site, the > only way I have found to do this is to set it to something very close to > the battery voltage, say 49.9V, put a heavy load on to drop the voltage > below the setpoint, let the generator start, then change the setpoint to > the desired 51V. > > > > > > Back to the original issue – I dug into the string voltage data history > remotely and narrowed down the fault to two of the four inverters. I am > sending someone to shut down the PV DC switches on these two inverters > today in hopes that we can keep the power flowing during the day and > through the weekend. I'm planning on a Monday boat ride out there to see > what caused the fault(s). I will report back. > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 6:00 PM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Aloha All, > > > > Thank you Jason. This is a huge and surprising issue. So much so that I > dropped what I was doing and called Sol-Ark to confirm. Mind you this was > level 1 support, but I was told this is what the Sol-Arks are supposed to > do and it is a feature not a bug. Their take is if there is any fault on > any one string, the Sol-Ark assumes the worst and shuts everything down. > > > > I wonder what solutions could be implemented on future installs to prevent > this from happening? > > > Aloha, > > > > Lou Russo > > Owner > > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > > Office - 808 345 6762 > > Spree Solar Systems LLC > > CT-34322 > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 11:45 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > I think it's more likely water in a J-box or possibly physical damage, but > someone passed by the property and did not observe any physical damage to > the array. > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 5:41 PM Jay wrote: > > Jason > > What’s the possibllity it was a lighting strike? > > > > Jay > > > > On Oct 10, 2024, at 2:57 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > We have been talking a lot recently about all-in-ones. I just had a > massive fail during Hurricane Milton with a quad Sol-Ark 15K off-grid > system that deserves some discussion about whether AIO is a good idea if it > can't build in some resilience to errors. I'm not sure if the new Midnite > unit is better in this respect, but this is what happened to the Sol-Ark > system... > > > > Four inverters, each with 4 strings of PV paralleled to 2 MPPT per > inverter. One of the slave units developed some sort of PV DC fault during > the storm. This caused the slave inverter to shut down and throw an error, > which in turn caused a parallel fault across all four inverters. Power > output ceases at that point. Apparently the system keeps resetting because > I have a cell modem that uploads data to Sol-Ark, but that cell modem is > powered by the inverter outputs, so it must be getting power at least > intermittently. The rest of the loads are basically flatlined according to > the Sol-Ark data. It's mostly air conditioners, so they probably can't turn > on fast enough before the PV fault causes another shutdown. > > > > So, in essence, one of 16 strings of PV develops a fault, and that causes > all four inverters to malfunction? What is the point of redundancy if a > fault of one results in a fault of all?! If there is a true PV input fault, > shouldn't that just shut down that MPPT, or perhaps all of the PV DC input > to that inverter? And why can't this inverter continue to invert power from > the batteries and charge from a generator when there is a DC input fault > that could be programmatically isolated and ignored? > > > > This is a bad design in my opinion, and something I hadn't considered. If > the faulted inverter can't function with a DC input fault, it should just > take itself out of the game. (This is 120/240 split phase, BTW). Is this > how all AIO inverters work? One inverter fault on the DC side kills all > paralleled units' AC output? Not good. > > > > This is a completely off-grid system on a remote island with no vehicle > access, so it's not exactly easy to do a "truck roll" on this one, > especially post-hurricane. To make matters worse, the generator was running > at the time of the fault, as it was being signaled to run because the > battery had reached the assigned charge voltage. The fault also killed the > 2-wire start signal from the master, so the system also stopped passing > through generator power to the loads. The house is dark. > > > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Oct 15 08:07:24 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 08:07:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] All-In-Ones / Sol-Ark fail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I like the idea of an ATS, but the customer would need to choose (in this case) whether they want the house to go dark or to burn through 2000 gallons of propane if left unattended. When you have to barge out a propane truck to refill, the economics change. You would not even need an ATS if the Sol-Ark had an alarm relay. If it did, you could trigger a 2-wire start upon an alarm condition and the generator would pass through power to the loads. I don't think that exists, however. If you go the ATS route, I suppose you could have a cell modem on the generator control as long as it is powered by the generator battery. That way, you could optionally turn the generator off remotely if it were to be automatically started. Good thoughts. Thanks for sharing. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Oct 15, 2024 at 2:09 AM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > William, > This is exactly the approach I've used in the off grid aio install I just > completed, specifically for reliability in the event of a system failure > with no one present. It works perfectly. Since there is no Bullitt in > bypass switch, this is a standard item in all my battery based systems, > whether on or off grid, now. I let my client decide whether they want to > spring for the automatic transfer switch or stick with a less expensive > manual transfer. But one or the other is standard or else the backed up > loads become captive to a system failure. > Howie > > On Tue, Oct 15, 2024, 1:08 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Jason: >> >> >> >> Thanks for the follow-up. Two thoughts: >> >> >> >> 1. I agree that a PV problem should not cause a system shutdown. I >> seem to recall Sol-Arc said they can’t do anything to correct the issue due >> to listing/testing issues. This alone would prevent me from choosing >> Sol-Arc. There is a lot of design history that goes against the all-in-one >> approach. For example, I remember as a teenager I got interested in stereo >> equipment. The logic was developing that rather than having a console >> stereo, separate components offered more flexibility and reliability: More >> flexible because you weren’t stuck with a given collection of components >> and more reliable because if one component failed, you had less to repair >> or replace. The same logic also applies to the one big inverter versus >> several small inverters discussion. >> >> 2. You mentioned you had bypass capabilities but no person to activate >> it. I’ve had this idea for a while: If one has a generator as part of a >> battery/inverter system, and reliability is critical--why not add an >> Automatic Transfer switch right before the loads with the inverter as the >> normal input and the generator as the emergency input? The generator still >> feeds the inverter system for normal operation, but if the inverter system >> errors out, the ATS can start the generator and activate the bypass-- all >> unattended. >> >> William >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Monday, October 14, 2024 8:19 PM >> *To:* Maverick Brown >> *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski; RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] All-In-Ones / Sol-Ark fail >> >> >> >> Diagnosis: No broken panels. Two different issues. We found a broken MC4 >> connector, possibly due to flying debris. We also found a melted Polaris >> tap that got wet (long story, our fault). >> >> >> >> These two issues happened at seeming the exact same time during the >> hurricane, but were completely different events. The next morning it caused >> faults on two of four inverters when the sun came up, and the other two >> inverters faulted out as "parallel faults." That's a behavior that seems >> unacceptable. Neither of the initially faulted inverters were the master, >> either. >> >> >> >> One bad PV string on one out of four inverters should not cause a total >> system failure to operate. >> >> >> >> Jason >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Oct 11, 2024, 3:59 PM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >> That is the exact error! But I don't think that explains how I have one >> string over the expected voltage and one string under. It's definitely >> worth checking, nonetheless. This array is 12 feet in the air and pitched >> at 5 degrees, so you can't see the glass from the ground. >> >> >> >> It is conceivable that I have two issues. The voltage issue could be a >> wiring issue and the inverters may have faulted out due to broken modules. >> There were tropical force winds there at the time. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 3:49 PM Maverick Brown < >> maverick at mavericksolar.com> wrote: >> >> Jason >> >> >> >> Which fault are you getting? >> >> >> >> This spring I was getting F23-Tz_GFCLO randomly on an upper roof array. >> >> >> >> After further investigation, I found several modules with broken glass. >> After replacing the mods, all is well. >> >> >> >> Thank you, >> >> >> >> Maverick >> >> >> >> Maverick Brown >> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 >> Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. >> • Solar Commander Remote Power >> • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection >> maverick at mavericksolar.com >> 512-460-9825 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Oct 11, 2024, at 1:39 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> >> By shutting off the PV disconnects on the two affected inverters we were >> able to make the system work successfully today. As I mentioned, we will >> dig into the actual faults on Monday. From the historical data, I found >> that this issue has actually been going on for a week before the faults >> started happening in the inverters. I'm not sure why the faults took so >> long to cause a shutdown of the inverters. Maybe it just "got worse" and >> finally triggered a fault. The first faults would have been during the >> early band of rain from Hurricane Milton, so possibly water or wind put the >> issue over the top. >> >> >> >> Before the shutdown, each of the two affected inverters had one MPPT with >> voltages out of the expected range for the last week. >> >> >> >> All MPPT strings are 14 modules with 7 in series, 2 in parallel. Each >> string Voc is 342V and Vmp is 297V. >> >> >> >> On the first affected inverter, I was able to observe the bad string >> operating consistently around 370V to 400V+, which is obviously well above >> the Voc (and it's hot here in Florida). The good string on this inverter >> operated around 260-270V during the same time, which is the expected range. >> >> >> >> On the second affected inverter, I observed the bad string operating >> consistently around 100V to 130V+. The good string on this inverter >> operated around 260-270V during the same time, which again is the expected >> range. >> >> >> >> Graphs are attached for those of you who like that kind of stuff. These >> show a typical day after the issue started to occur, but before the >> inverter faults occurred. >> >> >> >> Incidentally, the average voltage of the two bad strings seems to be >> pretty close to the normal strings, so that is a good clue. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> >> >> *Error! Filename not specified.* >> >> On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 6:55 AM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >> More interesting information... When the sun went down last night, the >> fault cleared and the inverters started producing power again, drawing from >> the batteries, and restarting the generator. The master inverter >> "remembered" the generator was in it's charging cycle and hadn't reached >> full battery yet. >> >> >> >> It's good that the inverters started inverting again. That's a plus. I >> actually wish the generator hadn't started because it was unnecessary based >> on battery voltage, which was near full anyway. >> >> >> >> Which brings me to another annoying behavior of the Sol-Arks that I >> discovered in how the GEN Charge and GRID Charge parameters work with >> signaling the two-wire start. If the battery voltage is 50V and the charge >> parameter is set to 49V, the generator signal will not kick on of course – >> the generator start relay is open. However, if you change the charge >> parameter setpoint to, say 51V, the generator should start because the >> battery voltage is below the setpoint. But that does not happen. The >> battery voltage must "fall through" the parameter setting for the charging >> to be triggered and the relay to close. If you are in a situation where you >> need to get the generator on a charge cycle and then leave the site, the >> only way I have found to do this is to set it to something very close to >> the battery voltage, say 49.9V, put a heavy load on to drop the voltage >> below the setpoint, let the generator start, then change the setpoint to >> the desired 51V. >> >> >> >> >> >> Back to the original issue – I dug into the string voltage data history >> remotely and narrowed down the fault to two of the four inverters. I am >> sending someone to shut down the PV DC switches on these two inverters >> today in hopes that we can keep the power flowing during the day and >> through the weekend. I'm planning on a Monday boat ride out there to see >> what caused the fault(s). I will report back. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 6:00 PM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Aloha All, >> >> >> >> Thank you Jason. This is a huge and surprising issue. So much so that I >> dropped what I was doing and called Sol-Ark to confirm. Mind you this was >> level 1 support, but I was told this is what the Sol-Arks are supposed to >> do and it is a feature not a bug. Their take is if there is any fault on >> any one string, the Sol-Ark assumes the worst and shuts everything down. >> >> >> >> I wonder what solutions could be implemented on future installs to >> prevent this from happening? >> >> >> Aloha, >> >> >> >> Lou Russo >> >> Owner >> >> lou at spreesolarsystems.com >> >> Office - 808 345 6762 >> >> Spree Solar Systems LLC >> >> CT-34322 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 11:45 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> I think it's more likely water in a J-box or possibly physical damage, >> but someone passed by the property and did not observe any physical damage >> to the array. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 5:41 PM Jay wrote: >> >> Jason >> >> What’s the possibllity it was a lighting strike? >> >> >> >> Jay >> >> >> >> On Oct 10, 2024, at 2:57 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> >> We have been talking a lot recently about all-in-ones. I just had a >> massive fail during Hurricane Milton with a quad Sol-Ark 15K off-grid >> system that deserves some discussion about whether AIO is a good idea if it >> can't build in some resilience to errors. I'm not sure if the new Midnite >> unit is better in this respect, but this is what happened to the Sol-Ark >> system... >> >> >> >> Four inverters, each with 4 strings of PV paralleled to 2 MPPT per >> inverter. One of the slave units developed some sort of PV DC fault during >> the storm. This caused the slave inverter to shut down and throw an error, >> which in turn caused a parallel fault across all four inverters. Power >> output ceases at that point. Apparently the system keeps resetting because >> I have a cell modem that uploads data to Sol-Ark, but that cell modem is >> powered by the inverter outputs, so it must be getting power at least >> intermittently. The rest of the loads are basically flatlined according to >> the Sol-Ark data. It's mostly air conditioners, so they probably can't turn >> on fast enough before the PV fault causes another shutdown. >> >> >> >> So, in essence, one of 16 strings of PV develops a fault, and that causes >> all four inverters to malfunction? What is the point of redundancy if a >> fault of one results in a fault of all?! If there is a true PV input fault, >> shouldn't that just shut down that MPPT, or perhaps all of the PV DC input >> to that inverter? And why can't this inverter continue to invert power from >> the batteries and charge from a generator when there is a DC input fault >> that could be programmatically isolated and ignored? >> >> >> >> This is a bad design in my opinion, and something I hadn't considered. If >> the faulted inverter can't function with a DC input fault, it should just >> take itself out of the game. (This is 120/240 split phase, BTW). Is this >> how all AIO inverters work? One inverter fault on the DC side kills all >> paralleled units' AC output? Not good. >> >> >> >> This is a completely off-grid system on a remote island with no vehicle >> access, so it's not exactly easy to do a "truck roll" on this one, >> especially post-hurricane. To make matters worse, the generator was running >> at the time of the fault, as it was being signaled to run because the >> battery had reached the assigned charge voltage. The fault also killed the >> 2-wire start signal from the master, so the system also stopped passing >> through generator power to the loads. The house is dark. >> >> >> >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rick at solshineenergy.com Tue Oct 15 14:08:58 2024 From: rick at solshineenergy.com (rick at solshineenergy.com) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 14:08:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Input Message-ID: Back on the Sol-Ark topic again. We have a customer whose 12kW is measuring -195VDC to ground from L1 and L2 with the Gen breaker open. L1 to L2 = 0V. I know the Gen input can be configured as an output, but reading a high DC voltage to ground is concerning. The generator has never been run. System is operating normally. Anyone have a Sol-Ark accessible that could verify what they’re reading? Thanks in advance. Rick Brown Solshine Energy Solar Electric Contracting Services www.solshineenergy.com Roanoke, VA Office: 540.235.3095 Mobile: 540.808.9502 CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE -- This email is intended only for the person(s) named in the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is confidential, privileged and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender of the error and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Oct 15 14:32:59 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 11:32:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Input In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <397bf9b330c15756e40a7e5e8f61cd4f@mail.gmail.com> Rick: If I had to guess I’d say you have a PV wiring fault. The PV positive may be shorted to ground. This would make the inverter chassis negative in relation to ground. The logic I use is to ask what is the likely source of DC at 195 volts? It is most likely the PV circuits, wouldn’t you say? If the DC Fault is not eternal then it must be internal to the inverter. This could be a dangerous situation. I would proceed with caution. Try completely isolating the PV from the inverter as a start. Good luck. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *rick--- via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Tuesday, October 15, 2024 11:09 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* rick at solshineenergy.com *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Input Back on the Sol-Ark topic again. We have a customer whose 12kW is measuring -195VDC to ground from L1 and L2 with the Gen breaker open. L1 to L2 = 0V. I know the Gen input can be configured as an output, but reading a high DC voltage to ground is concerning. The generator has never been run. System is operating normally. Anyone have a Sol-Ark accessible that could verify what they’re reading? Thanks in advance. Rick Brown Solshine Energy Solar Electric Contracting Services www.solshineenergy.com Roanoke, VA Office: 540.235.3095 Mobile: 540.808.9502 CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE -- This email is intended only for the person(s) named in the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is confidential, privileged and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender of the error and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Oct 15 14:56:40 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 14:56:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] All-In-Ones / Sol-Ark fail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am happy to report that these issues are resolved, and the system is operating normally after replacing the broken MC4 and re-pulling wire for the home run of the faulted string. That second issue emanated from my guys pulling wire through a conduit underground that evidently had some rocks in it, which damaged the insulation on a wire. One thing led to another, and some bad choices led to an issue that could have been worse. It was a good learning lesson. I'm still fuming over how this causes non-affected inverters to shut down. I will definitely look into how the Midnite AIO is different. I don't want to write off the AIO concept over this one issue. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Mon, Oct 14, 2024 at 11:18 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Diagnosis: No broken panels. Two different issues. We found a broken MC4 > connector, possibly due to flying debris. We also found a melted Polaris > tap that got wet (long story, our fault). > > These two issues happened at seeming the exact same time during the > hurricane, but were completely different events. The next morning it caused > faults on two of four inverters when the sun came up, and the other two > inverters faulted out as "parallel faults." That's a behavior that seems > unacceptable. Neither of the initially faulted inverters were the master, > either. > > One bad PV string on one out of four inverters should not cause a total > system failure to operate. > > Jason > > > On Fri, Oct 11, 2024, 3:59 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> That is the exact error! But I don't think that explains how I have one >> string over the expected voltage and one string under. It's definitely >> worth checking, nonetheless. This array is 12 feet in the air and pitched >> at 5 degrees, so you can't see the glass from the ground. >> >> It is conceivable that I have two issues. The voltage issue could be a >> wiring issue and the inverters may have faulted out due to broken modules. >> There were tropical force winds there at the time. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 3:49 PM Maverick Brown < >> maverick at mavericksolar.com> wrote: >> >>> Jason >>> >>> Which fault are you getting? >>> >>> This spring I was getting F23-Tz_GFCLO randomly on an upper roof array. >>> >>> After further investigation, I found several modules with broken glass. >>> After replacing the mods, all is well. >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> Maverick >>> >>> Maverick Brown >>> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 >>> Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. >>> • Solar Commander Remote Power >>> • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection >>> maverick at mavericksolar.com >>> 512-460-9825 >>> >>> >>> >>> On Oct 11, 2024, at 1:39 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> By shutting off the PV disconnects on the two affected inverters we were >>> able to make the system work successfully today. As I mentioned, we will >>> dig into the actual faults on Monday. From the historical data, I found >>> that this issue has actually been going on for a week before the faults >>> started happening in the inverters. I'm not sure why the faults took so >>> long to cause a shutdown of the inverters. Maybe it just "got worse" and >>> finally triggered a fault. The first faults would have been during the >>> early band of rain from Hurricane Milton, so possibly water or wind put the >>> issue over the top. >>> >>> Before the shutdown, each of the two affected inverters had one MPPT >>> with voltages out of the expected range for the last week. >>> >>> All MPPT strings are 14 modules with 7 in series, 2 in parallel. Each >>> string Voc is 342V and Vmp is 297V. >>> >>> On the first affected inverter, I was able to observe the bad string >>> operating consistently around 370V to 400V+, which is obviously well above >>> the Voc (and it's hot here in Florida). The good string on this inverter >>> operated around 260-270V during the same time, which is the expected range. >>> >>> On the second affected inverter, I observed the bad string operating >>> consistently around 100V to 130V+. The good string on this inverter >>> operated around 260-270V during the same time, which again is the expected >>> range. >>> >>> Graphs are attached for those of you who like that kind of stuff. These >>> show a typical day after the issue started to occur, but before the >>> inverter faults occurred. >>> >>> Incidentally, the average voltage of the two bad strings seems to be >>> pretty close to the normal strings, so that is a good clue. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 6:55 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>>> More interesting information... When the sun went down last night, the >>>> fault cleared and the inverters started producing power again, drawing from >>>> the batteries, and restarting the generator. The master inverter >>>> "remembered" the generator was in it's charging cycle and hadn't reached >>>> full battery yet. >>>> >>>> It's good that the inverters started inverting again. That's a plus. I >>>> actually wish the generator hadn't started because it was unnecessary based >>>> on battery voltage, which was near full anyway. >>>> >>>> Which brings me to another annoying behavior of the Sol-Arks that I >>>> discovered in how the GEN Charge and GRID Charge parameters work with >>>> signaling the two-wire start. If the battery voltage is 50V and the charge >>>> parameter is set to 49V, the generator signal will not kick on of course – >>>> the generator start relay is open. However, if you change the charge >>>> parameter setpoint to, say 51V, the generator should start because the >>>> battery voltage is below the setpoint. But that does not happen. The >>>> battery voltage must "fall through" the parameter setting for the charging >>>> to be triggered and the relay to close. If you are in a situation where you >>>> need to get the generator on a charge cycle and then leave the site, the >>>> only way I have found to do this is to set it to something very close to >>>> the battery voltage, say 49.9V, put a heavy load on to drop the voltage >>>> below the setpoint, let the generator start, then change the setpoint to >>>> the desired 51V. >>>> >>>> >>>> Back to the original issue – I dug into the string voltage data history >>>> remotely and narrowed down the fault to two of the four inverters. I am >>>> sending someone to shut down the PV DC switches on these two inverters >>>> today in hopes that we can keep the power flowing during the day and >>>> through the weekend. I'm planning on a Monday boat ride out there to see >>>> what caused the fault(s). I will report back. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 6:00 PM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Aloha All, >>>>> >>>>> Thank you Jason. This is a huge and surprising issue. So much so that >>>>> I dropped what I was doing and called Sol-Ark to confirm. Mind you this was >>>>> level 1 support, but I was told this is what the Sol-Arks are supposed to >>>>> do and it is a feature not a bug. Their take is if there is any fault on >>>>> any one string, the Sol-Ark assumes the worst and shuts everything down. >>>>> >>>>> I wonder what solutions could be implemented on future installs to >>>>> prevent this from happening? >>>>> >>>>> Aloha, >>>>> >>>>> Lou Russo >>>>> Owner >>>>> lou at spreesolarsystems.com >>>>> Office - 808 345 6762 >>>>> Spree Solar Systems LLC >>>>> CT-34322 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 11:45 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I think it's more likely water in a J-box or possibly physical >>>>>> damage, but someone passed by the property and did not observe any physical >>>>>> damage to the array. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 5:41 PM Jay wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Jason >>>>>>> What’s the possibllity it was a lighting strike? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jay >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Oct 10, 2024, at 2:57 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>  >>>>>>> We have been talking a lot recently about all-in-ones. I just had a >>>>>>> massive fail during Hurricane Milton with a quad Sol-Ark 15K off-grid >>>>>>> system that deserves some discussion about whether AIO is a good idea if it >>>>>>> can't build in some resilience to errors. I'm not sure if the new Midnite >>>>>>> unit is better in this respect, but this is what happened to the Sol-Ark >>>>>>> system... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Four inverters, each with 4 strings of PV paralleled to 2 MPPT per >>>>>>> inverter. One of the slave units developed some sort of PV DC fault during >>>>>>> the storm. This caused the slave inverter to shut down and throw an error, >>>>>>> which in turn caused a parallel fault across all four inverters. Power >>>>>>> output ceases at that point. Apparently the system keeps resetting because >>>>>>> I have a cell modem that uploads data to Sol-Ark, but that cell modem is >>>>>>> powered by the inverter outputs, so it must be getting power at least >>>>>>> intermittently. The rest of the loads are basically flatlined according to >>>>>>> the Sol-Ark data. It's mostly air conditioners, so they probably can't turn >>>>>>> on fast enough before the PV fault causes another shutdown. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So, in essence, one of 16 strings of PV develops a fault, and that >>>>>>> causes all four inverters to malfunction? What is the point of redundancy >>>>>>> if a fault of one results in a fault of all?! If there is a true PV input >>>>>>> fault, shouldn't that just shut down that MPPT, or perhaps all of the PV DC >>>>>>> input to that inverter? And why can't this inverter continue to invert >>>>>>> power from the batteries and charge from a generator when there is a DC >>>>>>> input fault that could be programmatically isolated and ignored? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This is a bad design in my opinion, and something I hadn't >>>>>>> considered. If the faulted inverter can't function with a DC input fault, >>>>>>> it should just take itself out of the game. (This is 120/240 split phase, >>>>>>> BTW). Is this how all AIO inverters work? One inverter fault on the DC side >>>>>>> kills all paralleled units' AC output? Not good. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This is a completely off-grid system on a remote island with no >>>>>>> vehicle access, so it's not exactly easy to do a "truck roll" on this one, >>>>>>> especially post-hurricane. To make matters worse, the generator was running >>>>>>> at the time of the fault, as it was being signaled to run because the >>>>>>> battery had reached the assigned charge voltage. The fault also killed the >>>>>>> 2-wire start signal from the master, so the system also stopped passing >>>>>>> through generator power to the loads. The house is dark. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>>>>> try the other: >>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rick at solshineenergy.com Tue Oct 15 15:03:27 2024 From: rick at solshineenergy.com (rick at solshineenergy.com) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 15:03:27 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Input In-Reply-To: <397bf9b330c15756e40a7e5e8f61cd4f@mail.gmail.com> References: <397bf9b330c15756e40a7e5e8f61cd4f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0CDCA5CE-F2BE-4A81-A50B-6FC25816106D@solshineenergy.com> William, There’s no PV on this system. It’s AC coupled to an SMA SB5.0. As a test, we turned off the Grid input, Load output, and turned off the battery breaker. As expected, the high voltage DC eventually bled to 0V. Turning things on in this order: Battery, Grid, then Load resulted in the high voltage appearing once the Grid relay kicked on. Actually, the high voltage ramped up slowly once the Grid relay turned on. We’ve been installing these for years and have never seen this. Then again, we’ve never measured that point. > On Oct 15, 2024, at 2:32 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Rick: > > If I had to guess I’d say you have a PV wiring fault. The PV positive may be shorted to ground. > This would make the inverter chassis negative in relation to ground. > > The logic I use is to ask what is the likely source of DC at 195 volts? It is most likely the PV circuits, wouldn’t you say? > > If the DC Fault is not eternal then it must be internal to the inverter. This could be a dangerous situation. I would proceed with caution. > > Try completely isolating the PV from the inverter as a start. > > Good luck. > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of rick--- via RE-wrenches > Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2024 11:09 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: rick at solshineenergy.com > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Input > > Back on the Sol-Ark topic again. We have a customer whose 12kW is measuring -195VDC to ground from L1 and L2 with the Gen breaker open. L1 to L2 = 0V. I know the Gen input can be configured as an output, but reading a high DC voltage to ground is concerning. The generator has never been run. System is operating normally. > > Anyone have a Sol-Ark accessible that could verify what they’re reading? > > Thanks in advance. > > Rick Brown > Solshine Energy > Solar Electric Contracting Services > www.solshineenergy.com > Roanoke, VA > Office: 540.235.3095 > Mobile: 540.808.9502 > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE -- This email is intended only for the person(s) named in > > the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is > > confidential, privileged and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have > > received this message in error, please notify the sender of the error and delete the > > message. Thank you. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergy.com Roanoke, VA Office: 540.235.3095 Mobile: 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE -- This email is intended only for the person(s) named in the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is confidential, privileged and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender of the error and delete the message. Thank you.” -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Oct 15 15:49:37 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 12:49:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Input In-Reply-To: <0CDCA5CE-F2BE-4A81-A50B-6FC25816106D@solshineenergy.com> References: <397bf9b330c15756e40a7e5e8f61cd4f@mail.gmail.com> <0CDCA5CE-F2BE-4A81-A50B-6FC25816106D@solshineenergy.com> Message-ID: <32d0cb72bfb7ffd3f5170e03e9611f96@mail.gmail.com> Rick: Two questions: 1. If you don’t have PV on this system, what are those glassy, flat things on the roof wired to the DC inputs of your Sunny Boy? 2. Think to yourself: What component(s) on this project could possibly produce high voltage DC? I think the answer to both questions is… PV panels. I highly suspect you have a PV ground fault. Proceed with caution. On the Sunny Boy I would check the DC voltage between L1 and ground, between L2 and ground and between neutral and ground. Do this in the operational configuration that is producing the DC voltage on the Gen inputs. While you are at it, check DC voltages between the Sunny Boy DC inputs to ground and between the Sunny Boy Chassis and ground. Check your GEC, GEC bonding conductor and all of the system EGCs. I would also check the GFDI fuse on the Sunny Boy. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* rick at solshineenergy.com [mailto:rick at solshineenergy.com] *Sent:* Tuesday, October 15, 2024 12:03 PM *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Input William, There’s no PV on this system. It’s AC coupled to an SMA SB5.0. As a test, we turned off the Grid input, Load output, and turned off the battery breaker. As expected, the high voltage DC eventually bled to 0V. Turning things on in this order: Battery, Grid, then Load resulted in the high voltage appearing once the Grid relay kicked on. Actually, the high voltage ramped up slowly once the Grid relay turned on. We’ve been installing these for years and have never seen this. Then again, we’ve never measured that point. On Oct 15, 2024, at 2:32 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Rick: If I had to guess I’d say you have a PV wiring fault. The PV positive may be shorted to ground. This would make the inverter chassis negative in relation to ground. The logic I use is to ask what is the likely source of DC at 195 volts? It is most likely the PV circuits, wouldn’t you say? If the DC Fault is not eternal then it must be internal to the inverter. This could be a dangerous situation. I would proceed with caution. Try completely isolating the PV from the inverter as a start. Good luck. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *rick--- via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Tuesday, October 15, 2024 11:09 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* rick at solshineenergy.com *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Input Back on the Sol-Ark topic again. We have a customer whose 12kW is measuring -195VDC to ground from L1 and L2 with the Gen breaker open. L1 to L2 = 0V. I know the Gen input can be configured as an output, but reading a high DC voltage to ground is concerning. The generator has never been run. System is operating normally. Anyone have a Sol-Ark accessible that could verify what they’re reading? Thanks in advance. Rick Brown Solshine Energy Solar Electric Contracting Services www.solshineenergy.com Roanoke, VA Office: 540.235.3095 Mobile: 540.808.9502 CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE -- This email is intended only for the person(s) named in the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is confidential, privileged and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender of the error and delete the message. Thank you. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergy.com Roanoke, VA Office: 540.235.3095 Mobile: 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE -- This email is intended only for the person(s) named in the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is confidential, privileged and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender of the error and delete the message. Thank you.” -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rick at solshineenergy.com Wed Oct 16 15:48:13 2024 From: rick at solshineenergy.com (rick at solshineenergy.com) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2024 15:48:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Input In-Reply-To: <32d0cb72bfb7ffd3f5170e03e9611f96@mail.gmail.com> References: <397bf9b330c15756e40a7e5e8f61cd4f@mail.gmail.com> <0CDCA5CE-F2BE-4A81-A50B-6FC25816106D@solshineenergy.com> <32d0cb72bfb7ffd3f5170e03e9611f96@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <510916B7-86E4-44C4-8000-AC12460A5BC7@solshineenergy.com> Sorry I wasn’t clear. There’s no PV tied directly to the Sol-Ark however the Sunny Boy has 5.52 kW of PV. Again the SB is AC coupled to the Sol-Ark via its Load input/output. I can assure you that the DC is not coming from an external source. There are no faults at either inverter (measured or indicated by the inverter(s)). Both systems are operating normally. I’ll be looking at another site to verify whether these readings are consistent or an anomaly. Thanks, Rick > On Oct 15, 2024, at 3:49 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Rick: > > Two questions: > > 1. If you don’t have PV on this system, what are those glassy, flat things on the roof wired to the DC inputs of your Sunny Boy? > > 2. Think to yourself: What component(s) on this project could possibly produce high voltage DC? > > I think the answer to both questions is… PV panels. I highly suspect you have a PV ground fault. Proceed with caution. > > On the Sunny Boy I would check the DC voltage between L1 and ground, between L2 and ground and between neutral and ground. Do this in the operational configuration that is producing the DC voltage on the Gen inputs. > > While you are at it, check DC voltages between the Sunny Boy DC inputs to ground and between the Sunny Boy Chassis and ground. > > Check your GEC, GEC bonding conductor and all of the system EGCs. > > I would also check the GFDI fuse on the Sunny Boy. > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > From: rick at solshineenergy.com [mailto:rick at solshineenergy.com ] > Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2024 12:03 PM > To: william at millersolar.com ; RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Input > > William, > > There’s no PV on this system. It’s AC coupled to an SMA SB5.0. > > As a test, we turned off the Grid input, Load output, and turned off the battery breaker. As expected, the high voltage DC eventually bled to 0V. Turning things on in this order: Battery, Grid, then Load resulted in the high voltage appearing once the Grid relay kicked on. Actually, the high voltage ramped up slowly once the Grid relay turned on. > > We’ve been installing these for years and have never seen this. Then again, we’ve never measured that point. > > > On Oct 15, 2024, at 2:32 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Rick: > > If I had to guess I’d say you have a PV wiring fault. The PV positive may be shorted to ground. > This would make the inverter chassis negative in relation to ground. > > The logic I use is to ask what is the likely source of DC at 195 volts? It is most likely the PV circuits, wouldn’t you say? > > If the DC Fault is not eternal then it must be internal to the inverter. This could be a dangerous situation. I would proceed with caution. > > Try completely isolating the PV from the inverter as a start. > > Good luck. > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of rick--- via RE-wrenches > Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2024 11:09 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: rick at solshineenergy.com > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Input > > Back on the Sol-Ark topic again. We have a customer whose 12kW is measuring -195VDC to ground from L1 and L2 with the Gen breaker open. L1 to L2 = 0V. I know the Gen input can be configured as an output, but reading a high DC voltage to ground is concerning. The generator has never been run. System is operating normally. > > Anyone have a Sol-Ark accessible that could verify what they’re reading? > > Thanks in advance. > > Rick Brown > Solshine Energy > Solar Electric Contracting Services > www.solshineenergy.com > Roanoke, VA > Office: 540.235.3095 > Mobile: 540.808.9502 > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE -- This email is intended only for the person(s) named in > > the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is > > confidential, privileged and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have > > received this message in error, please notify the sender of the error and delete the > > message. Thank you. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergy.com > Roanoke, VA > Office: 540.235.3095 > Mobile: 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE -- This email is intended only for the person(s) named in > the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is > confidential, privileged and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have > received this message in error, please notify the sender of the error and delete the > message. Thank you.” > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergy.com Roanoke, VA Office: 540.235.3095 Mobile: 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE -- This email is intended only for the person(s) named in the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is confidential, privileged and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender of the error and delete the message. Thank you.” -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rick at solshineenergy.com Wed Oct 16 21:09:38 2024 From: rick at solshineenergy.com (rick at solshineenergy.com) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2024 21:09:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Input In-Reply-To: <510916B7-86E4-44C4-8000-AC12460A5BC7@solshineenergy.com> References: <510916B7-86E4-44C4-8000-AC12460A5BC7@solshineenergy.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Oct 16 23:09:54 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2024 20:09:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Input In-Reply-To: References: <510916B7-86E4-44C4-8000-AC12460A5BC7@solshineenergy.com> Message-ID: Rick: You’re OK leaving this random high voltage DC on the AC output? William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Wed, Oct 16, 2024 at 6:09 PM rick at solshineenergy.com < rick at solshineenergy.com> wrote: > Confirmed! Reading the same points on a different inverter yielded the > same results. At a different site, I measured -188.8VDC to ground on both > L1 and L2. > > My suspicion is that there’s leakage current via the H-bridge output. Just > a thought. > > Case closed, thanks. > > Rick Brown > Solshine Energy > Solar Electric Contracting Services > www.solshineenergy.com > Roanoke, VA > Office: 540.235.3095 > Mobile: 540.808.9502 > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE -- This email is intended only for the person(s) > named in > > the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information > that is > > confidential, privileged and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable > law. If you have > > received this message in error, please notify the sender of the error and > delete the > > message. Thank you. > > > On Oct 16, 2024, at 3:49 PM, rick at solshineenergy.com wrote: > > Sorry I wasn’t clear. There’s no PV tied directly to the Sol-Ark however > the Sunny Boy has 5.52 kW of PV. Again the SB is AC coupled to the Sol-Ark > via its Load input/output. > > I can assure you that the DC is not coming from an external source. There > are no faults at either inverter (measured or indicated by the > inverter(s)). Both systems are operating normally. > > I’ll be looking at another site to verify whether these readings are > consistent or an anomaly. > > Thanks, > Rick > > On Oct 15, 2024, at 3:49 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Rick: > > > Two questions: > > > 1. If you don’t have PV on this system, what are those glassy, flat > things on the roof wired to the DC inputs of your Sunny Boy? > > > 2. Think to yourself: What component(s) on this project could possibly > produce high voltage DC? > > > I think the answer to both questions is… PV panels. I highly suspect you > have a PV ground fault. Proceed with caution. > > > On the Sunny Boy I would check the DC voltage between L1 and ground, > between L2 and ground and between neutral and ground. Do this in the > operational configuration that is producing the DC voltage on the Gen > inputs. > > > While you are at it, check DC voltages between the Sunny Boy DC inputs to > ground and between the Sunny Boy Chassis and ground. > > > Check your GEC, GEC bonding conductor and all of the system EGCs. > > > I would also check the GFDI fuse on the Sunny Boy. > > > William Miller > > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > *From:* rick at solshineenergy.com [mailto:rick at solshineenergy.com] > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 15, 2024 12:03 PM > *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Input > > > William, > > > There’s no PV on this system. It’s AC coupled to an SMA SB5.0. > > > As a test, we turned off the Grid input, Load output, and turned off the > battery breaker. As expected, the high voltage DC eventually bled to 0V. > Turning things on in this order: Battery, Grid, then Load resulted in the > high voltage appearing once the Grid relay kicked on. Actually, the high > voltage ramped up slowly once the Grid relay turned on. > > > We’ve been installing these for years and have never seen this. Then > again, we’ve never measured that point. > > > On Oct 15, 2024, at 2:32 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > Rick: > > > If I had to guess I’d say you have a PV wiring fault. The PV positive may > be shorted to ground. > This would make the inverter chassis negative in relation to ground. > > > The logic I use is to ask what is the likely source of DC at 195 volts? > It is most likely the PV circuits, wouldn’t you say? > > > If the DC Fault is not eternal then it must be internal to the inverter. > This could be a dangerous situation. I would proceed with caution. > > > Try completely isolating the PV from the inverter as a start. > > > Good luck. > > > William Miller > > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *rick--- via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 15, 2024 11:09 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* rick at solshineenergy.com > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Input > > > Back on the Sol-Ark topic again. We have a customer whose 12kW is > measuring -195VDC to ground from L1 and L2 with the Gen breaker open. L1 to > L2 = 0V. I know the Gen input can be configured as an output, but reading a > high DC voltage to ground is concerning. The generator has never been run. > System is operating normally. > > > Anyone have a Sol-Ark accessible that could verify what they’re reading? > > > Thanks in advance. > > > Rick Brown > Solshine Energy > Solar Electric Contracting Services > www.solshineenergy.com > Roanoke, VA > Office: 540.235.3095 > Mobile: 540.808.9502 > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE -- This email is intended only for the person(s) > named in > > the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information > that is > > confidential, privileged and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable > law. If you have > > received this message in error, please notify the sender of the error and > delete the > > message. Thank you. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergy.com > Roanoke, VA > Office: 540.235.3095 > Mobile: 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE -- This email is intended only for the person(s) > named in > the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information > that is > confidential, privileged and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable > law. If you have > received this message in error, please notify the sender of the error and > delete the > message. Thank you.” > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergy.com > Roanoke, VA > Office: 540.235.3095 > Mobile: 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE -- This email is intended only for the person(s) > named in > the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information > that is > confidential, privileged and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable > law. If you have > received this message in error, please notify the sender of the error and > delete the > message. Thank you.” > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu Oct 17 08:26:13 2024 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2024 08:26:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 208V residential service Message-ID: Hi All, I was just out of town installing a system for a friend just North of NYC. I was confused when checking phase for consumption CT's when I found that there was 120V L-N, but 206V L-L. I went and found the transformer, and there was in fact one transformer for all the houses that I could see. It had 4 wires coming out of it, and each house was tapped onto 3 of them. So they actually are just using two legs of a 3 phase 208/120V distribution system. Has anyone seen this sort of thing before? I was amazed that a bunch of houses there all have 208V L-L, and it seems to not be causing problems. Granted my friend says his A/C is really weak and that they have had some funky problems with their electric oven. But they also just moved in last year, don't have many 240V (or 208V) appliances, and are not very electrical savvy, so they were clueless about this. Unfortunately this means that all the Enphase IQ8A's I just put on their roof are useless, unless I go back to put in a transformer or get the utility to do something about it. I am going to call the utility (Con Ed), but I was just curious if anyone has had a similar experience and whether their utility was open to changing it to 240V. Cheers, Dave -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Oct 17 08:57:16 2024 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2024 06:57:16 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 208V residential service In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Dave, Yes, we have run into this. In our area, it tends to be on homes near commercial zones. Our utility will not change anything for us so we have learned to be on the lookout for this scenario. It's possible that the utility can tap to a higher voltage for you. You may be able to use a transformer to get to 240 Vac but that will come with quite a bit of loss. I'd recommend swapping to a 208 compatible system if the utility can't help. Good luck ! On Thu, Oct 17, 2024, 6:26 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi All, > > I was just out of town installing a system for a friend just North of NYC. > I was confused when checking phase for consumption CT's when I found that > there was 120V L-N, but 206V L-L. I went and found the transformer, and > there was in fact one transformer for all the houses that I could see. It > had 4 wires coming out of it, and each house was tapped onto 3 of them. So > they actually are just using two legs of a 3 phase 208/120V distribution > system. > > Has anyone seen this sort of thing before? I was amazed that a bunch of > houses there all have 208V L-L, and it seems to not be causing problems. > Granted my friend says his A/C is really weak and that they have had some > funky problems with their electric oven. But they also just moved in last > year, don't have many 240V (or 208V) appliances, and are not very > electrical savvy, so they were clueless about this. > > Unfortunately this means that all the Enphase IQ8A's I just put on their > roof are useless, unless I go back to put in a transformer or get the > utility to do something about it. I am going to call the utility (Con Ed), > but I was just curious if anyone has had a similar experience and whether > their utility was open to changing it to 240V. > > Cheers, > Dave > > -- > > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. > > > | Ithaca, > NY 14850 > > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 270-0370 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Oct 17 12:39:35 2024 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2024 09:39:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 208V residential service In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Dave - Yes, we see 120/208 volt services from time to time for homes typically near commercial or multifamily zones. They have caught us off guard more times than I care to admit. It's really hard for ESS systems since there are almost no products that run at 120/208v. But, anyway, the dead giveaway is that the utility meter type is different. We've been selecting the newer Enphase IQ8HC micros that are compatible with 120/208v. We've never had luck getting the utility to switch the client over to 240 v although we have tried. At least in our neck of the woods in CA, Form 2S CL200 meters are used for 120/240v services (Also, Form 2S meters are used for 120/240v 320 A services) [image: image.png] And Form 12S CL200 is for 208/120v services: [image: image.png] Good luck with your fix. Best, August On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 5:58 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Dave, > > Yes, we have run into this. In our area, it tends to be on homes near > commercial zones. Our utility will not change anything for us so we have > learned to be on the lookout for this scenario. > > It's possible that the utility can tap to a higher voltage for you. You > may be able to use a transformer to get to 240 Vac but that will come with > quite a bit of loss. I'd recommend swapping to a 208 compatible system if > the utility can't help. > > Good luck ! > > > On Thu, Oct 17, 2024, 6:26 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> I was just out of town installing a system for a friend just North of >> NYC. I was confused when checking phase for consumption CT's when I found >> that there was 120V L-N, but 206V L-L. I went and found the transformer, >> and there was in fact one transformer for all the houses that I could see. >> It had 4 wires coming out of it, and each house was tapped onto 3 of them. >> So they actually are just using two legs of a 3 phase 208/120V distribution >> system. >> >> Has anyone seen this sort of thing before? I was amazed that a bunch of >> houses there all have 208V L-L, and it seems to not be causing problems. >> Granted my friend says his A/C is really weak and that they have had some >> funky problems with their electric oven. But they also just moved in last >> year, don't have many 240V (or 208V) appliances, and are not very >> electrical savvy, so they were clueless about this. >> >> Unfortunately this means that all the Enphase IQ8A's I just put on their >> roof are useless, unless I go back to put in a transformer or get the >> utility to do something about it. I am going to call the utility (Con Ed), >> but I was just curious if anyone has had a similar experience and whether >> their utility was open to changing it to 240V. >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> -- >> >> [image: Logo] >> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >> Owner | Sungineer Solar >> p: he | him | his >> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. >> >> >> | Ithaca, >> NY 14850 >> >> w: www.sungineersolar.com >> c: (607) 270-0370 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 478450 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 330502 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Oct 17 12:43:48 2024 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2024 09:43:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 208V residential service In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This video shows the difference with the FM12S meter for 120/208v services: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJCKPF_yCew -August On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 9:39 AM August Goers wrote: > Hi Dave - > > Yes, we see 120/208 volt services from time to time for homes typically > near commercial or multifamily zones. They have caught us off guard more > times than I care to admit. It's really hard for ESS systems since there > are almost no products that run at 120/208v. But, anyway, the dead > giveaway is that the utility meter type is different. We've been selecting > the newer Enphase IQ8HC micros that are compatible with 120/208v. We've > never had luck getting the utility to switch the client over to 240 v > although we have tried. > > At least in our neck of the woods in CA, Form 2S CL200 meters are used for > 120/240v services (Also, Form 2S meters are used for 120/240v 320 A > services) > > [image: image.png] > > And Form 12S CL200 is for 208/120v services: > > > [image: image.png] > > Good luck with your fix. > > Best, August > > > On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 5:58 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi Dave, >> >> Yes, we have run into this. In our area, it tends to be on homes near >> commercial zones. Our utility will not change anything for us so we have >> learned to be on the lookout for this scenario. >> >> It's possible that the utility can tap to a higher voltage for you. You >> may be able to use a transformer to get to 240 Vac but that will come with >> quite a bit of loss. I'd recommend swapping to a 208 compatible system if >> the utility can't help. >> >> Good luck ! >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 17, 2024, 6:26 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> I was just out of town installing a system for a friend just North of >>> NYC. I was confused when checking phase for consumption CT's when I found >>> that there was 120V L-N, but 206V L-L. I went and found the transformer, >>> and there was in fact one transformer for all the houses that I could see. >>> It had 4 wires coming out of it, and each house was tapped onto 3 of them. >>> So they actually are just using two legs of a 3 phase 208/120V distribution >>> system. >>> >>> Has anyone seen this sort of thing before? I was amazed that a bunch of >>> houses there all have 208V L-L, and it seems to not be causing problems. >>> Granted my friend says his A/C is really weak and that they have had some >>> funky problems with their electric oven. But they also just moved in last >>> year, don't have many 240V (or 208V) appliances, and are not very >>> electrical savvy, so they were clueless about this. >>> >>> Unfortunately this means that all the Enphase IQ8A's I just put on their >>> roof are useless, unless I go back to put in a transformer or get the >>> utility to do something about it. I am going to call the utility (Con Ed), >>> but I was just curious if anyone has had a similar experience and whether >>> their utility was open to changing it to 240V. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> >>> -- >>> >>> [image: Logo] >>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >>> Owner | Sungineer Solar >>> p: he | him | his >>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. >>> >>> >>> | Ithaca, >>> NY 14850 >>> >>> w: www.sungineersolar.com >>> c: (607) 270-0370 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 478450 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 330502 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lawrencesteven at gmail.com Thu Oct 17 13:01:10 2024 From: lawrencesteven at gmail.com (Steven Lawrence) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2024 13:01:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 208V residential service In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is very common in and around the NYC area. You'll need a 240V to 208V transformer. It'll be faster and nowhere near as expensive as paying ConEd to drop a new bucket transformer for you. On future projects, be sure to look at the electrical service Steven Lawrence -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Thu Oct 17 14:41:51 2024 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2024 13:41:51 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 208V residential service In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: sounds strange to me. is the service 120 208 meaning 120 to neutral, and 120 to neutral and 208 between phases? meaning you are two legs of a 3-phase? if you are trying to use a single phase 240 volt inverter, be careful of the inverter wiring. some inverters can not be connected because you do not have a single phase . On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 12:02 PM Steven Lawrence via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > This is very common in and around the NYC area. You'll need a 240V to > 208V transformer. It'll be faster and nowhere near as expensive as paying > ConEd to drop a new bucket transformer for you. > On future projects, be sure to look at the electrical service > > Steven Lawrence > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Oct 17 18:51:05 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2024 16:51:05 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RIP magnum Message-ID: <836BC208-71C8-4151-A133-94C48FDC2A8D@gmail.com> I just saw the news that magnum has closed its doors. Jay From jj at aprsworld.com Thu Oct 17 19:02:35 2024 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jarvis) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2024 15:02:35 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RIP magnum In-Reply-To: <836BC208-71C8-4151-A133-94C48FDC2A8D@gmail.com> References: <836BC208-71C8-4151-A133-94C48FDC2A8D@gmail.com> Message-ID: My company, APRS World, developed the MagWeb remote monitoring that Magnum has been selling for years and has thousands of active users. Currently Sensata (Magnum's owner) is continuing to pay us to host it. But should they quit, we will continue to offer the service under our own name and address for Magnum's former customers. FYI, -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 2:51 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I just saw the news that magnum has closed its doors. > > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Oct 17 22:03:25 2024 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2024 22:03:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RIP magnum In-Reply-To: <836BC208-71C8-4151-A133-94C48FDC2A8D@gmail.com> References: <836BC208-71C8-4151-A133-94C48FDC2A8D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <42aeb880e9b42b605fde58149a3db977@redwoodalliance.org> Similar to Outback, Magnum was purchased by a major corporation and its product became less reliable. Maybe Outback will make a comeback under its new owners. Time will tell. Why would Sensata just shut down Magnum instead of selling it? _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ --- On 2024-10-17 18:51, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > I just saw the news that magnum has closed its doors. > > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Oct 17 22:42:44 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2024 20:42:44 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RIP magnum In-Reply-To: <42aeb880e9b42b605fde58149a3db977@redwoodalliance.org> References: <42aeb880e9b42b605fde58149a3db977@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Oct 17 23:20:24 2024 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2024 20:20:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 208V residential service In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey team 208 volts, Hawaii does this all the time usually in multi level walk ups, and this will result in low output from your range, water heater and dryer. It's a cheap and easy solution for packem in and stackum up housing. Remember 208 volts can be L to L, it can also be L to N and its the same volts but not interchangeable or transferable. Years ago SMA made a box to make the 208 to N work on the early 6000U's, it did work then later on they got FW and HW internally to work. Fun times On Thu, Oct 17, 2024, 10:02 AM Steven Lawrence via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > This is very common in and around the NYC area. You'll need a 240V to > 208V transformer. It'll be faster and nowhere near as expensive as paying > ConEd to drop a new bucket transformer for you. > On future projects, be sure to look at the electrical service > > Steven Lawrence > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Thu Oct 17 23:58:27 2024 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2024 21:58:27 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RIP magnum In-Reply-To: References: <42aeb880e9b42b605fde58149a3db977@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: RIP indeed, I will greatly miss Magnum. They were my go-to for small to modest off-grid systems in very remote areas. Their little MMS series inverter/charger was excellent for remote, seasonal hunting/fishing camps etc….build a small power panel with it, stretch wrap it all for the helicopter basket (instead of a long line) and quick deployment. The RC50 remote was very intuitive to even tech-challenged clients, and a few years back (before Sensata obviously!) I still recall a live SMS texting tech support session with Magnum that fixed our remote northern BC heli fly-in steelhead fishing camp genny charging issue. I was out in the rain on a cliff above the river to get Iridium sat reception for SMS and radioing instructions to the camp manager in the solar shed as Magnum texted detailed settings changes to me over the sat link. My own home off-grid system is Magnum, with BMK and shunt, web interface box, gen start box, etc. . It made my heart skip a beat to hear the news about them, what if my inverter dies? Well, it’s been 13 years and it hasn’t missed a beat. Fingers crossed. Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate danbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Oct 18 05:55:25 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2024 05:55:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RIP magnum In-Reply-To: References: <42aeb880e9b42b605fde58149a3db977@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: I recall Magnum making a mobile version of their inverters that were a perfect fit when I took a run at making mobile solar trailers 15 years ago before lightweight LiPO batteries were a viable option. I built and sold quite a few of those units and really liked the Magnum inverters' performance. I don't think I called customer service a single time. They just worked. RIP Magnum. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 11:59 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > RIP indeed, I will greatly miss Magnum. They were my go-to for small to > modest off-grid systems in very remote areas. Their little MMS series > inverter/charger was excellent for remote, seasonal hunting/fishing camps > etc….build a small power panel with it, stretch wrap it all for the > helicopter basket (instead of a long line) and quick deployment. > > The RC50 remote was very intuitive to even tech-challenged clients, and a > few years back (before Sensata obviously!) I still recall a live SMS > texting tech support session with Magnum that fixed our remote northern BC > heli fly-in steelhead fishing camp genny charging issue. I was out in the > rain on a cliff above the river to get Iridium sat reception for SMS and > radioing instructions to the camp manager in the solar shed as Magnum > texted detailed settings changes to me over the sat link. > > My own home off-grid system is Magnum, with BMK and shunt, web interface > box, gen start box, etc. . It made my heart skip a beat to hear the news > about them, what if my inverter dies? Well, it’s been 13 years and it > hasn’t missed a beat. Fingers crossed. > > > Dan Fink > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > NABCEP PV Associate > danbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Fri Oct 18 09:26:37 2024 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2024 09:26:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 208V residential service In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi all, Unfortunately this sounds like it is occasionally done on purpose by the utility, and I don't have much leverage to get them to change it. Good to know. I am trying to get details from them though about whether they would drop in a 240V transformer and what the cost will be. In the meantime I thought I would report that I left the system on to see what would happen. Interestingly, yesterday morning the voltage was 206V, and yet the microinverters started producing power. Enphase's datasheet shows that the voltage range is 211-264V, but maybe those are not hard limits. I then had to disable power production. Once we get utility approval, I'll run it for a little bit to see if it continues to work, before putting in a transformer. Enphase's spec sheet shows both a max continuous power and a max continuous current (349w, 1.45a). Does anyone know which one is the limit? Say the system runs at 208V instead of 240V, will the microinverters just put out less max power, or will they continue to put out 349w in the right conditions which would be 1.68a at 208v? Cheers, Dave On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 11:21 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hey team 208 volts, > Hawaii does this all the time usually in multi level walk ups, and this > will result in low output from your range, water heater and dryer. It's a > cheap and easy solution for packem in and stackum up housing. > Remember 208 volts can be L to L, it can also be L to N and its the same > volts but not interchangeable or transferable. Years ago SMA made a box to > make the 208 to N work on the early 6000U's, it did work then later on they > got FW and HW internally to work. > Fun times > > On Thu, Oct 17, 2024, 10:02 AM Steven Lawrence via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> This is very common in and around the NYC area. You'll need a 240V to >> 208V transformer. It'll be faster and nowhere near as expensive as paying >> ConEd to drop a new bucket transformer for you. >> On future projects, be sure to look at the electrical service >> >> Steven Lawrence >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nponzio at buildingenergyus.com Fri Oct 18 21:00:45 2024 From: nponzio at buildingenergyus.com (Nicholas Ponzio) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2024 21:00:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Nice wedge Message-ID: Have any of you tried these things? They look pretty handy, if they work... https://www.thepitchhopper.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Fri Oct 18 21:13:38 2024 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MD Electric & Solar) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2024 18:13:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Nice wedge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, my guys love them! Just makes being on the roof a little easier. Mike On Fri, Oct 18, 2024 at 6:01 PM Nicholas Ponzio via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Have any of you tried these things? They look pretty handy, if they work... > > https://www.thepitchhopper.com/ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-412-3181 Cell: 707-684-0064 www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Fri Oct 18 21:46:32 2024 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2024 18:46:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Nice wedge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Agreed 100. Pitch hopper is the real deal On Fri, Oct 18, 2024 at 6:13 PM MD Electric & Solar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Yes, my guys love them! Just makes being on the roof a little easier. > Mike > > On Fri, Oct 18, 2024 at 6:01 PM Nicholas Ponzio via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Have any of you tried these things? They look pretty handy, if they >> work... >> >> https://www.thepitchhopper.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar Inc. > Office: 707-412-3181 > Cell: 707-684-0064 > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rick at solshineenergy.com Sat Oct 19 08:03:03 2024 From: rick at solshineenergy.com (rick at solshineenergy.com) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2024 08:03:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Nice wedge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Sat Oct 19 08:18:11 2024 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2024 08:18:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Nice wedge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Do they work on both asphalt shingle and metal roofs? How high of a pitch do they work on? We often are on 8 to 12 pitch. Howie On Sat, Oct 19, 2024, 8:03 AM rick--- via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We love them. They can be used to stand on, sit on, and support tools and > h/w. > > Rick Brown > Solshine Energy > Solar Electric Contracting Services > www.solshineenergy.com > Roanoke, VA > Office: 540.235.3095 > Mobile: 540.808.9502 > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE -- This email is intended only for the person(s) > named in > > the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information > that is > > confidential, privileged and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable > law. If you have > > received this message in error, please notify the sender of the error and > delete the > > message. Thank you. > > > On Oct 18, 2024, at 9:48 PM, david quattro via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Agreed 100. Pitch hopper is the real deal > > > > On Fri, Oct 18, 2024 at 6:13 PM MD Electric & Solar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Yes, my guys love them! Just makes being on the roof a little easier. >> Mike >> >> On Fri, Oct 18, 2024 at 6:01 PM Nicholas Ponzio via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Have any of you tried these things? They look pretty handy, if they >>> work... >>> >>> https://www.thepitchhopper.com/ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> Michael D Nelson >> MD Electric & Solar Inc. >> Office: 707-412-3181 >> Cell: 707-684-0064 >> www.mdelectricsolar.com >> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Oct 19 09:16:17 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2024 09:16:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Nice wedge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I love to sit on them on the roof and watch my guys work. Haha. But seriously, I find them best as a place to rest tools and boxes of product. My installers don't like to constantly move them around to stand on them. I did use them on a 12/12 pitch 5V metal roof job once, and they were viable, but I would not trust my life to them. We don't see many pitches above 7/12 around here. Again, moving them around on a 12/12 pitch proved to be too much effort. It was easier relying on rails as a foothold once the first rail was up. But I like the product. It has its place. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sat, Oct 19, 2024 at 8:19 AM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Do they work on both asphalt shingle and metal roofs? How high of a pitch > do they work on? > We often are on 8 to 12 pitch. > Howie > > On Sat, Oct 19, 2024, 8:03 AM rick--- via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> We love them. They can be used to stand on, sit on, and support tools and >> h/w. >> >> Rick Brown >> Solshine Energy >> Solar Electric Contracting Services >> www.solshineenergy.com >> Roanoke, VA >> Office: 540.235.3095 >> Mobile: 540.808.9502 >> >> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE -- This email is intended only for the person(s) >> named in >> >> the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information >> that is >> >> confidential, privileged and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable >> law. If you have >> >> received this message in error, please notify the sender of the error and >> delete the >> >> message. Thank you. >> >> >> On Oct 18, 2024, at 9:48 PM, david quattro via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> Agreed 100. Pitch hopper is the real deal >> >> >> >> On Fri, Oct 18, 2024 at 6:13 PM MD Electric & Solar via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Yes, my guys love them! Just makes being on the roof a little easier. >>> Mike >>> >>> On Fri, Oct 18, 2024 at 6:01 PM Nicholas Ponzio via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Have any of you tried these things? They look pretty handy, if they >>>> work... >>>> >>>> https://www.thepitchhopper.com/ >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Michael D Nelson >>> MD Electric & Solar Inc. >>> Office: 707-412-3181 >>> Cell: 707-684-0064 >>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sat Oct 19 11:54:23 2024 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2024 11:54:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Nice wedge Message-ID: I have been using one for a little over a year now and love it-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Nicholas Ponzio via RE-wrenchesDate: Fri, Oct 18, 2024 9:01 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Nicholas Ponzio;Subject:[RE-wrenches] Nice wedgeHave any of you tried these things? They look pretty handy, if they work...https://www.thepitchhopper.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Sat Oct 19 21:16:58 2024 From: frenergy at psln.com (Bill Battagin) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2024 18:16:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Overpowered mppt landing in a SMA-41? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey folks,                 A customer I installed a system for 18 years ago now wants an upgrade, partly due to the Mitsubishi 170's high failure rate and the purchase of an EV.  The Mission PVs I'm looking at (at a deal I 'can't' refuse) have a rated current of just over 13 amps, a string of 10 is easily below the Voc limit. The specs for the SB6.0-1SP-US-41 show a max current per mppt of 10 amps.  I've never "pushed" this max amps limit quite this much, is there a problem?  I assume the inverter will just clip the input to 10 amps midday.         Would love some input, thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, owner 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) CA. C10 Lic # 874049 Solar Powered since 1982 Home of the Sunny Side Up -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Mon Oct 21 06:59:05 2024 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 06:59:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 208V residential service In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We got caught once by this, the storage inverter was doing strange stuff, tripping breakers, etc. When I realized it was 120/208, we changed to a storage inverternwhich was specified for the arrangement and never had another issue. It's not just the voltage, the included angle between the cycles is 120 not 180 and some inverters can't handle it. Typically any single phase inverter that can be used as three inverters in three phase can handle it fine. On Thu, Oct 17, 2024, 8:27 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi All, > > I was just out of town installing a system for a friend just North of NYC. > I was confused when checking phase for consumption CT's when I found that > there was 120V L-N, but 206V L-L. I went and found the transformer, and > there was in fact one transformer for all the houses that I could see. It > had 4 wires coming out of it, and each house was tapped onto 3 of them. So > they actually are just using two legs of a 3 phase 208/120V distribution > system. > > Has anyone seen this sort of thing before? I was amazed that a bunch of > houses there all have 208V L-L, and it seems to not be causing problems. > Granted my friend says his A/C is really weak and that they have had some > funky problems with their electric oven. But they also just moved in last > year, don't have many 240V (or 208V) appliances, and are not very > electrical savvy, so they were clueless about this. > > Unfortunately this means that all the Enphase IQ8A's I just put on their > roof are useless, unless I go back to put in a transformer or get the > utility to do something about it. I am going to call the utility (Con Ed), > but I was just curious if anyone has had a similar experience and whether > their utility was open to changing it to 240V. > > Cheers, > Dave > > -- > > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. > > > | Ithaca, > NY 14850 > > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 270-0370 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Mon Oct 21 08:42:38 2024 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 08:42:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Overpowered mppt landing in a SMA-41? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Bill, Those SMA inverters can handle a max Isc of 18A. Check your module datasheet, but I would assume that you would be under this limit. I've had strings with an Imp of 11-12A and the inverter just adjusts where it is on the MPPT curve to keep the current to under 10A. So there is a little bit of clipping on high power days, but it works just fine. Cheers, Dave On Sat, Oct 19, 2024 at 9:15 PM Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hey folks, > > A customer I installed a system for 18 years ago now wants > an upgrade, partly due to the Mitsubishi 170's high failure rate and the > purchase of an EV. The Mission PVs I'm looking at (at a deal I 'can't' > refuse) have a rated current of just over 13 amps, a string of 10 is easily > below the Voc limit. The specs for the SB6.0-1SP-US-41 show a max current > per mppt of 10 amps. I've never "pushed" this max amps limit quite this > much, is there a problem? I assume the inverter will just clip the input > to 10 amps midday. > > Would love some input, thanks, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, owner > 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) > 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) > CA. C10 Lic # 874049 > Solar Powered since 1982 > Home of the Sunny Side Up > > > > > Virus-free.www.avast.com > > <#m_-1275460061151004304_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Mon Oct 21 10:44:44 2024 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 14:44:44 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Overpowered mppt landing in a SMA-41? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bill - you got it - the inverter will hold at the 10A limit. When this limit is achieved, you will see a log entry for "derating mode" The Isc limit for the US-41 is 18A per channel, this is the limit you cannot exceed. Not sure if the US-41 is installed already? If you think you will have good conditions often, the SBSE US-50 line has 15A operating current limit per channel. Best regards - Mike Michael Mahon (he/him) Solar Academy Manager | SMA America 3925 Atherton Rd Rocklin, CA 95765 +1 916 918 9412 SMA America website Solar Academy website US English TechTip channel Upcoming SMA America trainings: English [cid:image001.jpg at 01DB2394.C3037FC0] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2024 7:17 PM To: Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches Cc: Bill Battagin Subject: [RE-wrenches] Overpowered mppt landing in a SMA-41? Hey folks, A customer I installed a system for 18 years ago now wants an upgrade, partly due to the Mitsubishi 170's high failure rate and the purchase of an EV. The Mission PVs I'm looking at (at a deal I 'can't' refuse) have a rated current of just over 13 amps, a string of 10 is easily below the Voc limit. The specs for the SB6.0-1SP-US-41 show a max current per mppt of 10 amps. I've never "pushed" this max amps limit quite this much, is there a problem? I assume the inverter will just clip the input to 10 amps midday. Would love some input, thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, owner 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) CA. C10 Lic # 874049 Solar Powered since 1982 Home of the Sunny Side Up [https://s-install.avcdn.net/ipm/preview/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif] Virus-free.www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 22040 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Clipping.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 61802 bytes Desc: Clipping.JPG URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Mon Oct 21 11:12:17 2024 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (David Palumbo) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 15:12:17 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] washer on OutBack inverter Message-ID: Wrenches, I need to replace a front load washer in my off grid rental house. Looking at LG's and I'm wondering if any of you have experience with them running on OutBack inverter power. The Maytag washer I'm replacing ran fine on inverter power but would not operate on Generac Eco-Gen power. Dave Palumbo Hyde Park, Vermont 802-371-8678 voice or text -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Oct 21 11:19:18 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 09:19:18 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] washer on OutBack inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <702A3F61-F03E-4D45-AE45-8E211586542C@gmail.com> Hi David I’ve never had an issue with any electronic washer with an Outback, that’s the best I can say. Jay > On Oct 21, 2024, at 9:12 AM, David Palumbo via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Wrenches, > > I need to replace a front load washer in my off grid rental house. > > Looking at LG's and I'm wondering if any of you have experience with them running on OutBack inverter power. > > The Maytag washer I'm replacing ran fine on inverter power but would not operate on Generac Eco-Gen power. > > Dave Palumbo > Hyde Park, Vermont > 802-371-8678 voice or text > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Mon Oct 21 12:00:34 2024 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 12:00:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] washer on OutBack inverter In-Reply-To: <702A3F61-F03E-4D45-AE45-8E211586542C@gmail.com> References: <702A3F61-F03E-4D45-AE45-8E211586542C@gmail.com> Message-ID: Ditto. I've been running many different brands of front loading washers for multiple clients on OB Radian and VFX/GVFX & FXR as well as Magnum MS4448PAE and still here at my own home on a pair of Trace SW5548's since 2002. Zero issues. Christopher On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 11:20 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi David > > I’ve never had an issue with any electronic washer with an Outback, that’s > the best I can say. > > Jay > > On Oct 21, 2024, at 9:12 AM, David Palumbo via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Wrenches, > > I need to replace a front load washer in my off grid rental house. > > Looking at LG's and I'm wondering if any of you have experience with them > running on OutBack inverter power. > > The Maytag washer I'm replacing ran fine on inverter power but would not > operate on Generac Eco-Gen power. > > Dave Palumbo > Hyde Park, Vermont > 802-371-8678 voice or text > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rekindaguy at yahoo.com Mon Oct 21 13:02:26 2024 From: rekindaguy at yahoo.com (Bob-O) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 10:02:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] washer on OutBack inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6C8326CD-B1EA-4F9E-8A7A-16D76A91EEAD@yahoo.com> We’ve had an LG front loader for years. Kathleen wrote it up in HP (rip). It’s an “Inverter-Direct Drive” model, whatever that means. Energy Star, of course. It runs on an OLD FX-2524 and has been flawless (so far…). That sound you hear is me knocking on wood…. Bob-O On Oct 21, 2024, at 8:13 AM, David Palumbo via RE-wrenches wrote:  Wrenches, I need to replace a front load washer in my off grid rental house. Looking at LG's and I'm wondering if any of you have experience with them running on OutBack inverter power. The Maytag washer I'm replacing ran fine on inverter power but would not operate on Generac Eco-Gen power. Dave Palumbo Hyde Park, Vermont 802-371-8678 voice or text _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will.white at fluke.com Mon Oct 21 13:03:31 2024 From: will.white at fluke.com (White, Will) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 17:03:31 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] [EXTERNAL] 208V residential service In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've seen this issue with a condo building. A competitor had installed a set of Outback inverters that wouldn't work because of low AC voltage. They had to swap them out for an inverter that would work at 208. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2024 8:26 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Dave Tedeyan Subject: [EXTERNAL] [RE-wrenches] 208V residential service CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Hi All, I was just out of town installing a system for a friend just North of NYC. I was confused when checking phase for consumption CT's when I found that there was 120V L-N, but 206V L-L. I went and found the transformer, and there was in fact one transformer for all the houses that I could see. It had 4 wires coming out of it, and each house was tapped onto 3 of them. So they actually are just using two legs of a 3 phase 208/120V distribution system. Has anyone seen this sort of thing before? I was amazed that a bunch of houses there all have 208V L-L, and it seems to not be causing problems. Granted my friend says his A/C is really weak and that they have had some funky problems with their electric oven. But they also just moved in last year, don't have many 240V (or 208V) appliances, and are not very electrical savvy, so they were clueless about this. Unfortunately this means that all the Enphase IQ8A's I just put on their roof are useless, unless I go back to put in a transformer or get the utility to do something about it. I am going to call the utility (Con Ed), but I was just curious if anyone has had a similar experience and whether their utility was open to changing it to 240V. Cheers, Dave -- [Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 ________________________________ Please be advised that this email may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us by email by replying to the sender and delete this message. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at greenwired.com Mon Oct 21 13:07:03 2024 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew Perkins) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 10:07:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lockable equipment cabinets Message-ID: <192b00be811.cf232c882789611.4814928008724761588@greenwired.com> Happy Monday Wrenches!                     I have a contract that is requiring the equipment be in lockable storage containers(Batteries, Inverters and BOS). I know there is a lot of pre-made stuff like the Homegrid Power Cube out there but at quite the price. What have you guys used in the past? Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 http://www.greenwired.com        http://qr.codes/qTa1Mh -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: New_logo.png Type: image/png Size: 26518 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: qrcode_115305565_7d41abb3d8a91304ef1c1ceb56edaa4a.png Type: image/png Size: 115110 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Mon Oct 21 14:27:26 2024 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 18:27:26 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] washer on OutBack inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We have had issues with older FX / VFX Outback inverters not reliably operating some appliances with electronic controls when the generator is running and charging batteries. Unsure if Radian corrected that. Loads ok on inverter, ok on generator direct, but charging - problems. It's a known issue with harmonics from the charging circuit. It became enough of a problem that we stopped recommending Outback for full time off-grid clients where generator use is a reality in the winter months. Had to replace several units with another brand. Kevin From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of David Palumbo via RE-wrenches Sent: October-21-24 8:12 AM To: Wrench List Cc: David Palumbo Subject: [RE-wrenches] washer on OutBack inverter Wrenches, I need to replace a front load washer in my off grid rental house. Looking at LG's and I'm wondering if any of you have experience with them running on OutBack inverter power. The Maytag washer I'm replacing ran fine on inverter power but would not operate on Generac Eco-Gen power. Dave Palumbo Hyde Park, Vermont 802-371-8678 voice or text -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will.white at fluke.com Mon Oct 21 14:57:43 2024 From: will.white at fluke.com (White, Will) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 18:57:43 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] [EXTERNAL] Re: washer on OutBack inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've had this issue with a Grundfos circulator pump for my radiant heating. It works fine when it's on the inverter, but as soon as the generator turns on, the pump stops circulating. I've got a dual-stack VFX3524, which I'll be upgrading to Victron shortly. Thanks, Will ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, October 21, 2024 2:27 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Kevin Pegg Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [RE-wrenches] washer on OutBack inverter CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. We have had issues with older FX / VFX Outback inverters not reliably operating some appliances with electronic controls when the generator is running and charging batteries. Unsure if Radian corrected that. Loads ok on inverter, ok on generator direct, but charging – problems. It’s a known issue with harmonics from the charging circuit. It became enough of a problem that we stopped recommending Outback for full time off-grid clients where generator use is a reality in the winter months. Had to replace several units with another brand. Kevin From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of David Palumbo via RE-wrenches Sent: October-21-24 8:12 AM To: Wrench List Cc: David Palumbo Subject: [RE-wrenches] washer on OutBack inverter Wrenches, I need to replace a front load washer in my off grid rental house. Looking at LG's and I'm wondering if any of you have experience with them running on OutBack inverter power. The Maytag washer I'm replacing ran fine on inverter power but would not operate on Generac Eco-Gen power. Dave Palumbo Hyde Park, Vermont 802-371-8678 voice or text ________________________________ Please be advised that this email may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us by email by replying to the sender and delete this message. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Oct 21 14:42:54 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 11:42:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] washer on OutBack inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <512b20f9f57865b622789b399ebb7a82@mail.gmail.com> Kevin: Your experience sounds a lot like a similar one we had with a Radian system. It is documented here along with the solution we found. I hope you find some value in our case study. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Monday, October 21, 2024 11:27 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Kevin Pegg *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] washer on OutBack inverter We have had issues with older FX / VFX Outback inverters not reliably operating some appliances with electronic controls when the generator is running and charging batteries. Unsure if Radian corrected that. Loads ok on inverter, ok on generator direct, but charging – problems. It’s a known issue with harmonics from the charging circuit. It became enough of a problem that we stopped recommending Outback for full time off-grid clients where generator use is a reality in the winter months. Had to replace several units with another brand. Kevin *From:* RE-wrenches *On Behalf Of *David Palumbo via RE-wrenches *Sent:* October-21-24 8:12 AM *To:* Wrench List *Cc:* David Palumbo *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] washer on OutBack inverter Wrenches, I need to replace a front load washer in my off grid rental house. Looking at LG's and I'm wondering if any of you have experience with them running on OutBack inverter power. The Maytag washer I'm replacing ran fine on inverter power but would not operate on Generac Eco-Gen power. Dave Palumbo Hyde Park, Vermont 802-371-8678 voice or text -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ericstev at vermontel.net Mon Oct 21 15:27:05 2024 From: ericstev at vermontel.net (Eric Stevens) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 15:27:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] washer on OutBack inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dave, The problem may not be with the generator or the inverter function of the Outback inverter, but rather with the charger section of the Outback which is activated whenever there is generator input. I had a similar experience with an off-grid customer in Springfield VT. He has a traditional FX or VFX set-up that ran fine for years. Then he changed-out his LP cooking range to one with electronic brains and added UPS units to his computer. Running with normal inverter power was fine, but if the generator was turned on, the cook-top display went haywire and the UPS units stopped working. Suspicion was immediately directed to the generator, but if the system was placed in bypass, everything worked fine with the generator power...even with a cheap portable generator hooked-up temporarily . Conclusion was that the Outback charger must be introducing some unwanted electronic noise. The customer decided to live with it rather than try to fix it. My recommendation would be some L-C line filtering tuned to 60 Hz to reduce electronic noise. Try your system in bypass. Eric Stevens Vermont Made Energy Grafton VT (802) 289-2280 >> On Oct 21, 2024, at 9:12?AM, David Palumbo via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> ? >> Wrenches, >> >> I need to replace a front load washer in my off grid rental house. >> >> Looking at LG's and I'm wondering if any of you have experience with >> them running on OutBack inverter power. >> >> The Maytag washer I'm replacing ran fine on inverter power but would >> not operate on Generac Eco-Gen power. >> >> Dave Palumbo >> Hyde Park, Vermont >> 802-371-8678 voice or text >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Message: 4 >> Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 15:12:17 +0000 >> From: David Palumbo >> To: Wrench List >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] washer on OutBack inverter >> Message-ID: >> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> Wrenches, >> >> I need to replace a front load washer in my off grid rental house. >> >> Looking at LG's and I'm wondering if any of you have experience with >> them running on OutBack inverter power. >> >> The Maytag washer I'm replacing ran fine on inverter power but would >> not operate on Generac Eco-Gen power. >> >> Dave Palumbo >> Hyde Park, Vermont >> 802-371-8678 voice or text >> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 5 >> Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 09:19:18 -0600 >> From: Jay >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] washer on OutBack inverter >> Message-ID: <702A3F61-F03E-4D45-AE45-8E211586542C at gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Hi David >> >> I?ve never had an issue with any electronic washer with an Outback, >> that?s the best I can say. >> >> Jay > > Message: 6 > Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 12:00:34 -0400 > From: Chris Schaefer > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] washer on OutBack inverter > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Ditto. I've been running many different brands of front loading washers > for > multiple clients on OB Radian and VFX/GVFX & FXR as well as Magnum > MS4448PAE and still here at my own home on a pair of Trace SW5548's > since > 2002. Zero issues. > > Christopher > > On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 11:20?AM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi David >> >> I?ve never had an issue with any electronic washer with an Outback, >> that?s >> the best I can say. >> >> Jay >> >> On Oct 21, 2024, at 9:12?AM, David Palumbo via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> ? >> Wrenches, >> >> I need to replace a front load washer in my off grid rental house. >> >> Looking at LG's and I'm wondering if any of you have experience with >> them >> running on OutBack inverter power. >> >> The Maytag washer I'm replacing ran fine on inverter power but would >> not >> operate on Generac Eco-Gen power. >> >> Dave Palumbo >> Hyde Park, Vermont >> 802-371-8678 voice or text > > Message: 7 > Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 10:02:26 -0700 > From: Bob-O > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] washer on OutBack inverter > Message-ID: <6C8326CD-B1EA-4F9E-8A7A-16D76A91EEAD at yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > We?ve had an LG front loader for years. Kathleen wrote it up in HP > (rip). It?s an ?Inverter-Direct Drive? model, whatever that means. > Energy Star, of course. It runs on an OLD FX-2524 and has been flawless > (so far?). That sound you hear is me knocking on wood?. > Bob-O > > On Oct 21, 2024, at 8:13?AM, David Palumbo via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > ? > Wrenches, > > I need to replace a front load washer in my off grid rental house. > > Looking at LG's and I'm wondering if any of you have experience with > them running on OutBack inverter power. > > The Maytag washer I'm replacing ran fine on inverter power but would > not operate on Generac Eco-Gen power. > > Dave Palumbo > Hyde Park, Vermont > 802-371-8678 voice or text -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Oct 21 15:32:32 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 13:32:32 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lockable equipment cabinets In-Reply-To: <192b00be811.cf232c882789611.4814928008724761588@greenwired.com> References: <192b00be811.cf232c882789611.4814928008724761588@greenwired.com> Message-ID: <97454df8-f38e-4542-8db9-3be04b8055b6@solarray.com> Greenlee Job boxes.  If you want blue, Lowe's has blue ones, Home Depot has Rigid brand that are orange.  If the standard 24 x 24 x 48 isn't big enough, You can order 30 x 30 x 48, which will fit two HUP batteries. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 10/21/2024 11:07 AM, Andrew Perkins via RE-wrenches wrote: > Happy Monday Wrenches! >                     I have a contract that is requiring the equipment > be in lockable storage containers(Batteries, Inverters and BOS). I > know there is a lot of pre-made stuff like the Homegrid Power Cube out > there but at quite the price. What have you guys used in the past? > > Andrew Perkins > > Greenwired > > P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 > > 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd > > Redway, CA 95560 > > www.greenwired.com > > New logo.png > _Leave a review! _ > qrcode_115305565_7d41abb3d8a91304ef1c1ceb56edaa4a.png > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: New_logo.png Type: image/png Size: 26518 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: qrcode_115305565_7d41abb3d8a91304ef1c1ceb56edaa4a.png Type: image/png Size: 115110 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Oct 21 15:43:25 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 12:43:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OB stacking with FXR inverters Message-ID: <03b333f84f269e266443a2bddb5fed04@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I am completely unable to reach Outback tech support so I am wondering if you can answer a question: I am replacing two VFX3648 inverters with 2 FXR3048-A inverters. The existing setup has two X240 transformers and is programmed as OB stacking. This is the schema that allows one inverter to sleep. Does the FXR inverter support that stacking and that use of the X240 transformer? I have a vague recollection that the R series does not offer that stacking option. Thanks in advance. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Oct 21 16:08:23 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 13:08:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback, where are you Message-ID: Friends: Like many of you I have a big investment in the use of Outback inverters and associated equipment. I have been unable to talk with tech support for months. When I call 360-435-6030 I am immediately shunted to voicemail and my messages go un-replied. I discovered another tech support number: 360-618-4363. I called that number which an automated attendant verified was Outback tech support. I was on hold for 1 hour Friday and no one ever picked up. I was not offered a chance to leave another useless message. A web search turns up various websites some listing the Texas address, some with the Bellingham address. One website had lots of future links. I had heard that Outback was purchased by Signature solar. I called them Friday and was directed to one Johnathan Gammil. Johnathon would not take my call and never called back. I was told to email him but the address I was given was not valid. I suspect the person I spoke to misspelled his name in the email address. The person I spoke to denied that Signature had purchased Outback. A while back I spoke to Zonna Energy and asked about Outback. I was assured that Outback was going to remain healthy. In a call to Zonna today I was told Outback was purchased by an owner of Signature, not by Signature itself. I was told that the purchase of the company did not include the ETL listings and the listing tests needed to be redone and that is scheduled for November. While it may be true that Outback will come back as a valid brand, the mismanagement and poor communication about the transition does not bode well. William PS: I also was told Magnum might be acquired and resurrected. Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Oct 21 16:44:25 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 16:44:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lockable equipment cabinets In-Reply-To: <192b00be811.cf232c882789611.4814928008724761588@greenwired.com> References: <192b00be811.cf232c882789611.4814928008724761588@greenwired.com> Message-ID: The HomeGrid Cube has Sol-Ark inverters mounted on the outside, not locked inside. I would question the wisdom of locking three Sol-Ark inverters in a small enclosure anyway. They can get very hot... unless your primary concern is cold. I would imagine that there are rack mounted batteries out there that could be mounted in a locked rack cabinet. EG4 makes a lockable cabinet for their own LiFePO batteries. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 1:07 PM Andrew Perkins via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Happy Monday Wrenches! > I have a contract that is requiring the equipment be > in lockable storage containers(Batteries, Inverters and BOS). I know there > is a lot of pre-made stuff like the Homegrid Power Cube out there but at > quite the price. What have you guys used in the past? > > Andrew Perkins > > Greenwired > > P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 > > 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd > > Redway, CA 95560 > www.greenwired.com > > [image: New logo.png] > *Leave a review! * > [image: qrcode_115305565_7d41abb3d8a91304ef1c1ceb56edaa4a.png] > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: New_logo.png Type: image/png Size: 26518 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: qrcode_115305565_7d41abb3d8a91304ef1c1ceb56edaa4a.png Type: image/png Size: 115110 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Oct 21 17:28:02 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 15:28:02 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OB stacking with FXR inverters In-Reply-To: <03b333f84f269e266443a2bddb5fed04@mail.gmail.com> References: <03b333f84f269e266443a2bddb5fed04@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Oct 21 20:04:55 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 18:04:55 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] washer on OutBack inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1147D5D7-2A51-439E-A005-6704492EB04A@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Oct 22 01:43:09 2024 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 22:43:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lockable equipment cabinets In-Reply-To: <192b00be811.cf232c882789611.4814928008724761588@greenwired.com> References: <192b00be811.cf232c882789611.4814928008724761588@greenwired.com> Message-ID: I have used the Job Boxes, they are battery explosion proof, they are watertight, forklift ready, modular and very lockable, they have at least three sizes to choose from. I have had them sprayed with bed liner on the outside and put in walls or floors and pour concrete around, options, options, Fun times On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 10:07 AM Andrew Perkins via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Happy Monday Wrenches! > I have a contract that is requiring the equipment be > in lockable storage containers(Batteries, Inverters and BOS). I know there > is a lot of pre-made stuff like the Homegrid Power Cube out there but at > quite the price. What have you guys used in the past? > > Andrew Perkins > > Greenwired > > P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 > > 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd > > Redway, CA 95560 > www.greenwired.com > > [image: New logo.png] > *Leave a review! * > [image: qrcode_115305565_7d41abb3d8a91304ef1c1ceb56edaa4a.png] > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: New_logo.png Type: image/png Size: 26518 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: qrcode_115305565_7d41abb3d8a91304ef1c1ceb56edaa4a.png Type: image/png Size: 115110 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Tue Oct 22 11:35:20 2024 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2024 15:35:20 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] washer on OutBack inverter In-Reply-To: <6C8326CD-B1EA-4F9E-8A7A-16D76A91EEAD@yahoo.com> References: <6C8326CD-B1EA-4F9E-8A7A-16D76A91EEAD@yahoo.com> Message-ID: I’m off-grid & still using my 20+ year-old Fisher Paykal washer, had to replace the control board at one point, 2 thumbs up on that nothing fancy about this washer, but super reliable about 140 WHR per full load on a favorite set up of parameters full water, extra rinse, This unit has a really good spin out to get a lot of water out of the clothes, but it’s pretty old style. It’s given running for 20 years on various outback Inverters running it on a radian 8048 and an Onan 20 KW generator system Dana Orzel C: 208.721.7003 E- dana at solarwork.com On Oct 21, 2024, at 11:04 AM, Bob-O via RE-wrenches wrote:  We’ve had an LG front loader for years. Kathleen wrote it up in HP (rip). It’s an “Inverter-Direct Drive” model, whatever that means. Energy Star, of course. It runs on an OLD FX-2524 and has been flawless (so far…). That sound you hear is me knocking on wood…. Bob-O On Oct 21, 2024, at 8:13 AM, David Palumbo via RE-wrenches wrote:  Wrenches, I need to replace a front load washer in my off grid rental house. Looking at LG's and I'm wondering if any of you have experience with them running on OutBack inverter power. The Maytag washer I'm replacing ran fine on inverter power but would not operate on Generac Eco-Gen power. Dave Palumbo Hyde Park, Vermont 802-371-8678 voice or text _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Tue Oct 22 14:49:12 2024 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2024 12:49:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power Crimper and Stripper Recommendations and Questions Message-ID: Wrenches, We are embarking on a project in November that has enough battery cable and terminal crimps to justify researching and buying power tools specific to the task. If other Wrenches have product recommendations I'll take them. The battery wire we've spec'd is 4/0 copper (UL 1283 / MTW / THW). For the stripper should I be looking for a stripper that works for copper "THHN / XHHW" or "RHW / RHH / USE"? Logic would suggest THHN but I don't know enough about the individual properties of these wire types to understand the pros and cons of how well it will strip the wire given the different insulating jacket thicknesses. So far in my initial research I have only found crimpers that are lineman-specific and haven't dived into the realm of automotive tools so any direction that folks could throw my way along this avenue will also be appreciated. Cheers, Sam [image: OnSite Energy] SAM HARALDSON Operations Specialist (406) 551-6135 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 Locally owned and operated since 2012 [image: B Corporation] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Tue Oct 22 14:56:28 2024 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2024 14:56:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power Crimper and Stripper Recommendations and Questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Sam, I purchased the Milwaukee Force Logic crimper a few years ago and it’s been worth every penny. The cutting attachment doesn’t work so well on fine stranded, but the crimper attachment has worked flawlessly. I use it almost every day. https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/2679-600C -Chris On Tue, Oct 22, 2024 at 2:49 PM Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches, > > We are embarking on a project in November that has enough battery cable > and terminal crimps to justify researching and buying power tools specific > to the task. If other Wrenches have product recommendations I'll take > them. The battery wire we've spec'd is 4/0 copper (UL 1283 / MTW / THW). > > For the stripper should I be looking for a stripper that works for copper "THHN > / XHHW" or "RHW / RHH / USE"? Logic would suggest THHN but I don't know > enough about the individual properties of these wire types to understand > the pros and cons of how well it will strip the wire given the different > insulating jacket thicknesses. > > So far in my initial research I have only found crimpers that are > lineman-specific and haven't dived into the realm of automotive tools so > any direction that folks could throw my way along this avenue will also be > appreciated. > > Cheers, > Sam > > [image: OnSite Energy] > > > SAM HARALDSON > Operations Specialist > (406) 551-6135 > 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 > > Locally owned and operated since 2012 > [image: B Corporation] > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Oct 22 14:55:37 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2024 11:55:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power Crimper and Stripper Recommendations and Questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4e89b6d2a89aa4b39e7d89b410cffa4d@mail.gmail.com> Am: Check with PV Cables to see if they have a recommendation. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Tuesday, October 22, 2024 11:49 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Sam Haraldson *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Power Crimper and Stripper Recommendations and Questions Wrenches, We are embarking on a project in November that has enough battery cable and terminal crimps to justify researching and buying power tools specific to the task. If other Wrenches have product recommendations I'll take them. The battery wire we've spec'd is 4/0 copper (UL 1283 / MTW / THW). For the stripper should I be looking for a stripper that works for copper "THHN / XHHW" or "RHW / RHH / USE"? Logic would suggest THHN but I don't know enough about the individual properties of these wire types to understand the pros and cons of how well it will strip the wire given the different insulating jacket thicknesses. So far in my initial research I have only found crimpers that are lineman-specific and haven't dived into the realm of automotive tools so any direction that folks could throw my way along this avenue will also be appreciated. Cheers, Sam [image: OnSite Energy] *SAM HARALDSON * Operations Specialist (406) 551-6135 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 Locally owned and operated since 2012 [image: B Corporation] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Oct 22 15:03:53 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2024 15:03:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power Crimper and Stripper Recommendations and Questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Maybe it's the lugs I am using, but even when I VERY carefully strip 4/0 fine stranded cable, it is very difficult to get all strands into the lugs. I don't think a mechanical stripper would be workable, but maybe I'm doing something wrong. I gave up on Magna Lugs in favor of the flared lugs from PV-Cables.com. I am watching with interest about feedback on the Milwaukee crimpers. I like expensive tools, but I'm having a hard time justifying this one. My local battery store has a manual bench mounted crimper that works wonders and they let me use it for free as long as I buy something there. I keep forgetting to get the model number on it because I might buy one to clamp to my bumper for making cables when necessary. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Oct 22, 2024 at 2:49 PM Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches, > > We are embarking on a project in November that has enough battery cable > and terminal crimps to justify researching and buying power tools specific > to the task. If other Wrenches have product recommendations I'll take > them. The battery wire we've spec'd is 4/0 copper (UL 1283 / MTW / THW). > > For the stripper should I be looking for a stripper that works for copper "THHN > / XHHW" or "RHW / RHH / USE"? Logic would suggest THHN but I don't know > enough about the individual properties of these wire types to understand > the pros and cons of how well it will strip the wire given the different > insulating jacket thicknesses. > > So far in my initial research I have only found crimpers that are > lineman-specific and haven't dived into the realm of automotive tools so > any direction that folks could throw my way along this avenue will also be > appreciated. > > Cheers, > Sam > > [image: OnSite Energy] > > > SAM HARALDSON > Operations Specialist > (406) 551-6135 > 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 > Locally owned and operated since 2012 > [image: B Corporation] > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Tue Oct 22 15:32:19 2024 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2024 12:32:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power Crimper and Stripper Recommendations and Questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2c30142d-1d90-4d84-9055-90096770ba9f@sindelarsolar.com> Jason, Here's a simple trick for getting fine-stranded cable into a lug: Make two very careful radial cuts around the end of the insulation, one at the intended end of the insulation and a second about halfway or less toward the cable end. Remove the ring of insulation closest to the end. Slide the remaining ring to the end of the cable but don't remove it from the cable. Press the cable end into the lug opening as far as it will go; the ring of insulation holds the strands together. Slit the ring and push it the rest of the way into the lug. Crimp. Allan On 10/22/2024 12:03 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > Maybe it's the lugs I am using, but even when I VERY carefully strip > 4/0 fine stranded cable, it is very difficult to get all strands into > the lugs. I don't think a mechanical stripper would be workable, but > maybe I'm doing something wrong. > > I gave up on Magna Lugs in favor of the flared lugs from PV-Cables.com. > Jason Szumlanski -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Oct 22 15:38:30 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2024 15:38:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power Crimper and Stripper Recommendations and Questions In-Reply-To: <2c30142d-1d90-4d84-9055-90096770ba9f@sindelarsolar.com> References: <2c30142d-1d90-4d84-9055-90096770ba9f@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: That's exactly what I do with my Klein hawkbill knife. My guys prefer a razor knife. I still find it hard to get the Magna Lugs on there. It is much easier with the flared lugs. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Oct 22, 2024 at 3:32 PM Sindelar Solar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jason, > Here's a simple trick for getting fine-stranded cable into a lug: Make two > very careful radial cuts around the end of the insulation, one at the > intended end of the insulation and a second about halfway or less toward > the cable end. Remove the ring of insulation closest to the end. Slide the > remaining ring to the end of the cable but don't remove it from the cable. > Press the cable end into the lug opening as far as it will go; the ring of > insulation holds the strands together. Slit the ring and push it the rest > of the way into the lug. Crimp. > Allan > > On 10/22/2024 12:03 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Maybe it's the lugs I am using, but even when I VERY carefully strip 4/0 > fine stranded cable, it is very difficult to get all strands into the lugs. > I don't think a mechanical stripper would be workable, but maybe I'm doing > something wrong. > > I gave up on Magna Lugs in favor of the flared lugs from PV-Cables.com. > Jason Szumlanski > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Tue Oct 22 21:38:08 2024 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2024 18:38:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power Crimper and Stripper Recommendations and Questions In-Reply-To: References: <2c30142d-1d90-4d84-9055-90096770ba9f@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Polarwire's Arctic Ultraflex and the lugs they sell are made for each other. No errant strands to deal with. Insulation cuts easily with any knife. I cut lengths with a small cordless bandsaw. I crimp with a cheap Chinese hydraulic crimper. I used the Milwaukie on a job and it was nice, but I've never felt the need to buy one and I make lots of cables. 30 yesterday. And I'm a tool queer :) On Tue, Oct 22, 2024 at 12:39 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > That's exactly what I do with my Klein hawkbill knife. My guys prefer a > razor knife. I still find it hard to get the Magna Lugs on there. It is > much easier with the flared lugs. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Tue, Oct 22, 2024 at 3:32 PM Sindelar Solar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Jason, >> Here's a simple trick for getting fine-stranded cable into a lug: Make >> two very careful radial cuts around the end of the insulation, one at the >> intended end of the insulation and a second about halfway or less toward >> the cable end. Remove the ring of insulation closest to the end. Slide the >> remaining ring to the end of the cable but don't remove it from the cable. >> Press the cable end into the lug opening as far as it will go; the ring of >> insulation holds the strands together. Slit the ring and push it the rest >> of the way into the lug. Crimp. >> Allan >> >> On 10/22/2024 12:03 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Maybe it's the lugs I am using, but even when I VERY carefully strip 4/0 >> fine stranded cable, it is very difficult to get all strands into the lugs. >> I don't think a mechanical stripper would be workable, but maybe I'm doing >> something wrong. >> >> I gave up on Magna Lugs in favor of the flared lugs from PV-Cables.com. >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirpal at oregonsolarworks.com Tue Oct 22 22:07:00 2024 From: kirpal at oregonsolarworks.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2024 19:07:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power Crimper and Stripper Recommendations and Questions In-Reply-To: References: <2c30142d-1d90-4d84-9055-90096770ba9f@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: I love our Milwaukee Force Logic crimper - beautiful, effortless crimps in small spaces We get nice flared crimp lugs of all various sizes from PV Cables Inc. - Bryan over there takes good care of us. After years of doing crimps manually the knuckles on my hands really appreciate the battery powered devices. For stripping the wire I like the sire slitter/stripper like this one available online. These are good at removing insulation without disturbing the strands inside making it easy to slip into a flared lug and even doable if not flared. One of my other favorite tools is the battery powered Milwaukee hole punch. Those two tools really make doing battery based systems much more efficient with clean tidy results. Keep up the good work. Happy fall! Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT#25 Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 >> >> On Tue, Oct 22, 2024 at 3:32 PM Sindelar Solar via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Jason, >>> Here's a simple trick for getting fine-stranded cable into a lug: Make >>> two very careful radial cuts around the end of the insulation, one at the >>> intended end of the insulation and a second about halfway or less toward >>> the cable end. Remove the ring of insulation closest to the end. Slide the >>> remaining ring to the end of the cable but don't remove it from the cable. >>> Press the cable end into the lug opening as far as it will go; the ring of >>> insulation holds the strands together. Slit the ring and push it the rest >>> of the way into the lug. Crimp. >>> Allan >>> >>> On 10/22/2024 12:03 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Maybe it's the lugs I am using, but even when I VERY carefully strip 4/0 >>> fine stranded cable, it is very difficult to get all strands into the lugs. >>> I don't think a mechanical stripper would be workable, but maybe I'm doing >>> something wrong. >>> >>> I gave up on Magna Lugs in favor of the flared lugs from PV-Cables.com. >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric Inc > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > CSLB 1116835 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Tue Oct 22 22:26:16 2024 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jarvis) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2024 21:26:16 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power Crimper and Stripper Recommendations and Questions In-Reply-To: References: <2c30142d-1d90-4d84-9055-90096770ba9f@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 22, 2024 at 9:07 PM Kirpal Khalsa via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I love our Milwaukee Force Logic crimper - beautiful, effortless crimps in > small spaces > Which crimper / die package do you have? Milwaukee has a confusingly large selection of them. Thanks, -Jim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Tue Oct 22 22:49:44 2024 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2024 19:49:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power Crimper and Stripper Recommendations and Questions In-Reply-To: References: <2c30142d-1d90-4d84-9055-90096770ba9f@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Here's a link to the dies(U style copper) https://www.platt.com/p/0010680/milwaukee/8-600-mcm-copper-u-style-die-kit/045242339372/mil4916kitc And the tool.. https://www.platt.com/p/0010677/milwaukee/600-350-mcm-crimping-tool/045242339488/mil267922 They have a larger one for up to 750mcm and a m12 one but I think this one is the ticket. Sunny Regards, Tyrone Houck LRT 076 Oregon Solarworks LLC 541-787-1366 tyronehouck at gmail.com On Tue, Oct 22, 2024, 7:27 PM James Jarvis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 22, 2024 at 9:07 PM Kirpal Khalsa via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I love our Milwaukee Force Logic crimper - beautiful, effortless crimps >> in small spaces >> > > Which crimper / die package do you have? Milwaukee has a confusingly large > selection of them. > > Thanks, > > -Jim > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jon at dixonpowersystems.com Wed Oct 23 12:07:36 2024 From: jon at dixonpowersystems.com (Jon Dixon) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 11:07:36 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module snail trails Message-ID: <0386ecca-f25b-4911-b3f4-b2bb77df17e6@dixonpowersystems.com> Hello All, I have a local utility with a 50Kw array installed in 2015 consisting of 200 ReneSola 250w modules and 3 SMA Tripower 15000TL-US -10. They are having Arc fault code on two of the inverters. This has been going on for a few years now. It happens a couple times a year generally after a large rain. They just reset the code and it comes back to life. They gave me a walk through and we noticed that a number of modules have snail trails. I have attached a closeup picture I took and IR views of affected module and non affected. It was a 90 deg day when the utility took the IR pictures. Causes for snail trails that I found: * The difference in chemical properties of EVA foils and the silver contacts * The degradation extent of the EVA material * Water vapor permeability of the solar panel’s backsheet material I did find that if you have snail trails you will have micro fractures. I did see some info that micro fractures could cause arc faults. Finally my question is can snail trails cause arc faults also? Thanks Jon -- Jonathan Dixon Dixon Power Systems 3250 N 20th St Ste 1 Lincoln, NE 68521 402-467-3240 jon at dixonpowersystems.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Closeup 2024-10-17-1.png Type: image/png Size: 791728 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Snail Trails 2024-10-17.png Type: image/png Size: 669011 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: No Snail Trails 2024-10-17.png Type: image/png Size: 628188 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bryan at pv-cables.com Wed Oct 23 12:44:51 2024 From: bryan at pv-cables.com (Bryan Norkunas) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 16:44:51 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module snail trails In-Reply-To: <0386ecca-f25b-4911-b3f4-b2bb77df17e6@dixonpowersystems.com> References: <0386ecca-f25b-4911-b3f4-b2bb77df17e6@dixonpowersystems.com> Message-ID: Jon, Do you recall which PV connectors were on the modules and what they used for extension cables? Around that time, Amphenol H4 connectors had issues due to the plastic housings failing and allowing water into the connections. Bryan Norkunas PV-Cables Inc. 989 Milton Ave Ste 1D Ferndale CA 95536 (707) 923-3000 office www.pv-cables.com [cid:aa320544-f89d-44fc-a3e9-bb468c2d9953] [cid:867e1cba-ab13-4a98-9ecf-200189c32b6d] Please print only if necessary. NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by replying to this email, and destroy all copies of the original message. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jon Dixon via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2024 9:07 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: Jon Dixon Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module snail trails Hello All, I have a local utility with a 50Kw array installed in 2015 consisting of 200 ReneSola 250w modules and 3 SMA Tripower 15000TL-US -10. They are having Arc fault code on two of the inverters. This has been going on for a few years now. It happens a couple times a year generally after a large rain. They just reset the code and it comes back to life. They gave me a walk through and we noticed that a number of modules have snail trails. I have attached a closeup picture I took and IR views of affected module and non affected. It was a 90 deg day when the utility took the IR pictures. Causes for snail trails that I found: * The difference in chemical properties of EVA foils and the silver contacts * The degradation extent of the EVA material * Water vapor permeability of the solar panel’s backsheet material I did find that if you have snail trails you will have micro fractures. I did see some info that micro fractures could cause arc faults. Finally my question is can snail trails cause arc faults also? Thanks Jon -- Jonathan Dixon Dixon Power Systems 3250 N 20th St Ste 1 Lincoln, NE 68521 402-467-3240 jon at dixonpowersystems.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-znsett2t.png Type: image/png Size: 78625 bytes Desc: Outlook-znsett2t.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-jqwvacbt.png Type: image/png Size: 2978 bytes Desc: Outlook-jqwvacbt.png URL: From bryan at pv-cables.com Wed Oct 23 13:09:53 2024 From: bryan at pv-cables.com (Bryan Norkunas) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 17:09:53 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module snail trails In-Reply-To: <0386ecca-f25b-4911-b3f4-b2bb77df17e6@dixonpowersystems.com> References: <0386ecca-f25b-4911-b3f4-b2bb77df17e6@dixonpowersystems.com> Message-ID: Looking at the pictures again, I wonder if there might be a pinhole in the back lamination that is allowing water into the module. Bryan Norkunas PV-Cables Inc. 989 Milton Ave Ste 1D Ferndale CA 95536 (707) 923-3000 office www.pv-cables.com [cid:8b840384-c5f3-42a6-b643-c70a0c8359f7] [cid:359044c7-87e0-453e-8b12-d03863f07a98] Please print only if necessary. NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by replying to this email, and destroy all copies of the original message. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jon Dixon via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2024 9:07 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: Jon Dixon Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module snail trails Hello All, I have a local utility with a 50Kw array installed in 2015 consisting of 200 ReneSola 250w modules and 3 SMA Tripower 15000TL-US -10. They are having Arc fault code on two of the inverters. This has been going on for a few years now. It happens a couple times a year generally after a large rain. They just reset the code and it comes back to life. They gave me a walk through and we noticed that a number of modules have snail trails. I have attached a closeup picture I took and IR views of affected module and non affected. It was a 90 deg day when the utility took the IR pictures. Causes for snail trails that I found: * The difference in chemical properties of EVA foils and the silver contacts * The degradation extent of the EVA material * Water vapor permeability of the solar panel’s backsheet material I did find that if you have snail trails you will have micro fractures. I did see some info that micro fractures could cause arc faults. Finally my question is can snail trails cause arc faults also? Thanks Jon -- Jonathan Dixon Dixon Power Systems 3250 N 20th St Ste 1 Lincoln, NE 68521 402-467-3240 jon at dixonpowersystems.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-wabazobn.png Type: image/png Size: 78625 bytes Desc: Outlook-wabazobn.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-qs0datbf.png Type: image/png Size: 2978 bytes Desc: Outlook-qs0datbf.png URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Wed Oct 23 17:21:20 2024 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 15:21:20 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power Crimper and Stripper Recommendations and Questions In-Reply-To: References: <2c30142d-1d90-4d84-9055-90096770ba9f@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the great discussion on this topic. It's always a treat to see the wide variety of preferences and knowledge this list offers. I contacted PV-Cables separately and Bryan had some good old school knowledge to add that he said I could share here for posterity and those interested. *Hey Sam, * *Just getting back from lunch and saw the wrenches list.* *We build battery and inverter cables in house, one of our specialties other than building PV Cable assemblies.* *We use Hydraulic Crimping stations and strippers to build cables.* *I am not very familiar with the battery-operated tools. * *But I do have experience with the manual bench mount crimpers and handheld crimpers. We sell both that are specific for the Quick Cable lugs we also sell.* *The quick cable lugs are the best fit for both Cobra "X-flex" and the Direct Wire "All-Flex" fine stranded cable. * *For hand strippers, I am very old school and use these when in the field building cables for friends and family. * *https://www.greenlee.com/us/en/cable-stripper-1903* *But at work for our production builds, we use table top strippers that were designed for the battery cable we use.* *Feel free to share this if you would like on the wrenches list* *Bryan Norkunas * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 84451 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Oct 23 18:00:53 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 18:00:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power Crimper and Stripper Recommendations and Questions In-Reply-To: References: <2c30142d-1d90-4d84-9055-90096770ba9f@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: I use that Greenlee stripper (buta cheap knockoff) sometimes when using Allan's suggested double radial cut method, and it works well, but you have to make sure the depth adjustment is set properly for the cable you are using. With practice it can make nice cuts around the circumference. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Oct 23, 2024 at 5:22 PM Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Thanks for the great discussion on this topic. It's always a treat to see > the wide variety of preferences and knowledge this list offers. I > contacted PV-Cables separately and Bryan had some good old school knowledge > to add that he said I could share here for posterity and those interested. > > *Hey Sam, * > > *Just getting back from lunch and saw the wrenches list.* > > *We build battery and inverter cables in house, one of our specialties > other than building PV Cable assemblies.* > *We use Hydraulic Crimping stations and strippers to build cables.* > > *I am not very familiar with the battery-operated tools. * > *But I do have experience with the manual bench mount crimpers and > handheld crimpers. We sell both that are specific for the Quick Cable lugs > we also sell.* > > > *The quick cable lugs are the best fit for both Cobra "X-flex" and the > Direct Wire "All-Flex" fine stranded cable. * > > *For hand strippers, I am very old school and use these when in the field > building cables for friends and family. * > *https://www.greenlee.com/us/en/cable-stripper-1903* > > *But at work for our production builds, we use table top strippers that > were designed for the battery cable we use.* > > > *Feel free to share this if you would like on the wrenches list* > > > *Bryan Norkunas * > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jon at dixonpowersystems.com Wed Oct 23 18:03:10 2024 From: jon at dixonpowersystems.com (Jon Dixon) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 17:03:10 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module snail trails In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56e60e9e-b6f4-4ad6-93e2-184153cbd442@dixonpowersystems.com> Thanks Bryan, I do not know the PV connector types for the modules or extension cables we have not started working on it. I need to put a plan together for the customer first. Good to know about the Amphenol H4 issues. Thank You Jonathan Dixon Dixon Power Systems 3250 N 20th St Ste 1 Lincoln, NE 68521 402-467-3240 jon at dixonpowersystems.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 16:44:51 +0000 > From: Bryan Norkunas > To: "re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org" > , "jon at dixonpowersystems.com" > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Module snail trails > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > > Jon, > > Do you recall which PV connectors were on the modules and what they used for extension cables? > > Around that time, Amphenol H4 connectors had issues due to the plastic housings failing and allowing water into the connections. > > > > Bryan Norkunas > > PV-Cables Inc. > > 989 Milton Ave Ste 1D > > Ferndale CA 95536 > > (707) 923-3000 office > > www.pv-cables.com > > [cid:aa320544-f89d-44fc-a3e9-bb468c2d9953] > > > > [cid:867e1cba-ab13-4a98-9ecf-200189c32b6d] Please print only if necessary. > > > > NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by replying to this email, and destroy all copies of the original message. > > > > ________________________________ > From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jon Dixon via RE-wrenches > Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2024 9:07 AM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Cc: Jon Dixon > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module snail trails > > Hello All, > > I have a local utility with a 50Kw array installed in 2015 consisting of 200 ReneSola 250w modules and 3 SMA Tripower 15000TL-US -10. They are having Arc fault code on two of the inverters. This has been going on for a few years now. It happens a couple times a year generally after a large rain. They just reset the code and it comes back to life. > > They gave me a walk through and we noticed that a number of modules have snail trails. I have attached a closeup picture I took and IR views of affected module and non affected. It was a 90 deg day when the utility took the IR pictures. > > Causes for snail trails that I found: > > * The difference in chemical properties of EVA foils and the silver contacts > * The degradation extent of the EVA material > * Water vapor permeability of the solar panel?s backsheet material > > I did find that if you have snail trails you will have micro fractures. I did see some info that micro fractures could cause arc faults. > > Finally my question is can snail trails cause arc faults also? > > > Thanks Jon > > -- > Jonathan Dixon > Dixon Power Systems > 3250 N 20th St Ste 1 > Lincoln, NE 68521 > 402-467-3240 > jon at dixonpowersystems.com > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: Outlook-znsett2t.png > Type: image/png > Size: 78625 bytes > Desc: Outlook-znsett2t.png > URL: > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: Outlook-jqwvacbt.png > Type: image/png > Size: 2978 bytes > Desc: Outlook-jqwvacbt.png > URL: > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 17:09:53 +0000 > From: Bryan Norkunas > To: "re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org" > , "jon at dixonpowersystems.com" > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Module snail trails > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > > Looking at the pictures again, I wonder if there might be a pinhole in the back lamination that is allowing water into the module. > > > > > Bryan Norkunas > > PV-Cables Inc. > > 989 Milton Ave Ste 1D > > Ferndale CA 95536 > > (707) 923-3000 office > > www.pv-cables.com > > [cid:8b840384-c5f3-42a6-b643-c70a0c8359f7] > > > > [cid:359044c7-87e0-453e-8b12-d03863f07a98] Please print only if necessary. > > > > NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by replying to this email, and destroy all copies of the original message. > > > > ________________________________ > From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jon Dixon via RE-wrenches > Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2024 9:07 AM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Cc: Jon Dixon > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module snail trails > > Hello All, > > I have a local utility with a 50Kw array installed in 2015 consisting of 200 ReneSola 250w modules and 3 SMA Tripower 15000TL-US -10. They are having Arc fault code on two of the inverters. This has been going on for a few years now. It happens a couple times a year generally after a large rain. They just reset the code and it comes back to life. > > They gave me a walk through and we noticed that a number of modules have snail trails. I have attached a closeup picture I took and IR views of affected module and non affected. It was a 90 deg day when the utility took the IR pictures. > > Causes for snail trails that I found: > > * The difference in chemical properties of EVA foils and the silver contacts > * The degradation extent of the EVA material > * Water vapor permeability of the solar panel?s backsheet material > > I did find that if you have snail trails you will have micro fractures. I did see some info that micro fractures could cause arc faults. > > Finally my question is can snail trails cause arc faults also? > > > Thanks Jon > > -- > Jonathan Dixon > Dixon Power Systems > 3250 N 20th St Ste 1 > Lincoln, NE 68521 > 402-467-3240 > jon at dixonpowersystems.com > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: Outlook-wabazobn.png > Type: image/png > Size: 78625 bytes > Desc: Outlook-wabazobn.png > URL: > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: Outlook-qs0datbf.png > Type: image/png > Size: 2978 bytes > Desc: Outlook-qs0datbf.png > URL: > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > ------------------------------ > > End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 17, Issue 319 > ******************************************** > > From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Wed Oct 23 20:35:48 2024 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 20:35:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power Crimper and Stripper Recommendations and Questions In-Reply-To: References: <2c30142d-1d90-4d84-9055-90096770ba9f@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: I’ve also noticed that the method of cutting the cable plays a big part in how effectively it goes into the lug. When I use a bandsaw, loose jawed cable cutters or even a really sharp circularity saw blade, strands get slightly frayed and won’t fit properly. I’ve concluded that a long handled and well tightened fine stranded cable cutter is the best option. It compresses the cable from all sides and compresses circumference so it’s less of an uphill battle when stripping and shoving. On Wed, Oct 23, 2024 at 6:01 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I use that Greenlee stripper (buta cheap knockoff) sometimes when using > Allan's suggested double radial cut method, and it works well, but you have > to make sure the depth adjustment is set properly for the cable you are > using. With practice it can make nice cuts around the circumference. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Wed, Oct 23, 2024 at 5:22 PM Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Thanks for the great discussion on this topic. It's always a treat to >> see the wide variety of preferences and knowledge this list offers. I >> contacted PV-Cables separately and Bryan had some good old school knowledge >> to add that he said I could share here for posterity and those interested. >> >> *Hey Sam, * >> >> *Just getting back from lunch and saw the wrenches list.* >> >> *We build battery and inverter cables in house, one of our specialties >> other than building PV Cable assemblies.* >> *We use Hydraulic Crimping stations and strippers to build cables.* >> >> *I am not very familiar with the battery-operated tools. * >> *But I do have experience with the manual bench mount crimpers and >> handheld crimpers. We sell both that are specific for the Quick Cable lugs >> we also sell.* >> >> >> *The quick cable lugs are the best fit for both Cobra "X-flex" and the >> Direct Wire "All-Flex" fine stranded cable. * >> >> *For hand strippers, I am very old school and use these when in the field >> building cables for friends and family. * >> *https://www.greenlee.com/us/en/cable-stripper-1903* >> >> *But at work for our production builds, we use table top strippers that >> were designed for the battery cable we use.* >> >> >> *Feel free to share this if you would like on the wrenches list* >> >> >> *Bryan Norkunas * >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Oct 23 20:38:38 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 20:38:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power Crimper and Stripper Recommendations and Questions In-Reply-To: References: <2c30142d-1d90-4d84-9055-90096770ba9f@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: My go-to is the Knipex Cable Cutter. It's a small handheld ratcheting cutter that fits nicely in my tool bag. Not cheap. Not cheap at all. But worth it. On Wed, Oct 23, 2024, 8:36 PM Chris Sparadeo wrote: > I’ve also noticed that the method of cutting the cable plays a big part in > how effectively it goes into the lug. When I use a bandsaw, loose jawed > cable cutters or even a really sharp circularity saw blade, strands get > slightly frayed and won’t fit properly. I’ve concluded that a long handled > and well tightened fine stranded cable cutter is the best option. It > compresses the cable from all sides and compresses circumference so it’s > less of an uphill battle when stripping and shoving. > > On Wed, Oct 23, 2024 at 6:01 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I use that Greenlee stripper (buta cheap knockoff) sometimes when using >> Allan's suggested double radial cut method, and it works well, but you have >> to make sure the depth adjustment is set properly for the cable you are >> using. With practice it can make nice cuts around the circumference. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 23, 2024 at 5:22 PM Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Thanks for the great discussion on this topic. It's always a treat to >>> see the wide variety of preferences and knowledge this list offers. I >>> contacted PV-Cables separately and Bryan had some good old school knowledge >>> to add that he said I could share here for posterity and those interested. >>> >>> *Hey Sam, * >>> >>> *Just getting back from lunch and saw the wrenches list.* >>> >>> *We build battery and inverter cables in house, one of our specialties >>> other than building PV Cable assemblies.* >>> *We use Hydraulic Crimping stations and strippers to build cables.* >>> >>> *I am not very familiar with the battery-operated tools. * >>> *But I do have experience with the manual bench mount crimpers and >>> handheld crimpers. We sell both that are specific for the Quick Cable lugs >>> we also sell.* >>> >>> >>> *The quick cable lugs are the best fit for both Cobra "X-flex" and the >>> Direct Wire "All-Flex" fine stranded cable. * >>> >>> *For hand strippers, I am very old school and use these when in the >>> field building cables for friends and family. * >>> *https://www.greenlee.com/us/en/cable-stripper-1903* >>> >>> *But at work for our production builds, we use table top strippers that >>> were designed for the battery cable we use.* >>> >>> >>> *Feel free to share this if you would like on the wrenches list* >>> >>> >>> *Bryan Norkunas * >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Oct 23 21:00:50 2024 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 18:00:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power Crimper and Stripper Recommendations and Questions In-Reply-To: References: <2c30142d-1d90-4d84-9055-90096770ba9f@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Wrenches, If you are cutting fine stranded battery cable up to 4/0, a real cheap solution is a PVC pipe cutter, they are ratcheting, sharp and very inexpensive. I use a 36" manual crimper, l had a very nice hydrolic lever pump 4 pin crimper but someone broke it and the manufacture refuses to repair it. So manual is the way. Fun times On Wed, Oct 23, 2024, 5:39 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > My go-to is the Knipex Cable Cutter. It's a small handheld ratcheting > cutter that fits nicely in my tool bag. Not cheap. Not cheap at all. But > worth it. > > On Wed, Oct 23, 2024, 8:36 PM Chris Sparadeo > wrote: > >> I’ve also noticed that the method of cutting the cable plays a big part >> in how effectively it goes into the lug. When I use a bandsaw, loose jawed >> cable cutters or even a really sharp circularity saw blade, strands get >> slightly frayed and won’t fit properly. I’ve concluded that a long handled >> and well tightened fine stranded cable cutter is the best option. It >> compresses the cable from all sides and compresses circumference so it’s >> less of an uphill battle when stripping and shoving. >> >> On Wed, Oct 23, 2024 at 6:01 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I use that Greenlee stripper (buta cheap knockoff) sometimes when using >>> Allan's suggested double radial cut method, and it works well, but you have >>> to make sure the depth adjustment is set properly for the cable you are >>> using. With practice it can make nice cuts around the circumference. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 23, 2024 at 5:22 PM Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks for the great discussion on this topic. It's always a treat to >>>> see the wide variety of preferences and knowledge this list offers. I >>>> contacted PV-Cables separately and Bryan had some good old school knowledge >>>> to add that he said I could share here for posterity and those interested. >>>> >>>> *Hey Sam, * >>>> >>>> *Just getting back from lunch and saw the wrenches list.* >>>> >>>> *We build battery and inverter cables in house, one of our specialties >>>> other than building PV Cable assemblies.* >>>> *We use Hydraulic Crimping stations and strippers to build cables.* >>>> >>>> *I am not very familiar with the battery-operated tools. * >>>> *But I do have experience with the manual bench mount crimpers and >>>> handheld crimpers. We sell both that are specific for the Quick Cable lugs >>>> we also sell.* >>>> >>>> >>>> *The quick cable lugs are the best fit for both Cobra "X-flex" and the >>>> Direct Wire "All-Flex" fine stranded cable. * >>>> >>>> *For hand strippers, I am very old school and use these when in the >>>> field building cables for friends and family. * >>>> *https://www.greenlee.com/us/en/cable-stripper-1903* >>>> >>>> *But at work for our production builds, we use table top strippers >>>> that were designed for the battery cable we use.* >>>> >>>> >>>> *Feel free to share this if you would like on the wrenches list* >>>> >>>> >>>> *Bryan Norkunas * >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Wed Oct 23 22:46:32 2024 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 02:46:32 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Outback FXR Series as GTGBB on existing Off Grid Home Message-ID: Wrenches, We have a client that has brought utility power in and we now have the system hooked up to the utility. In setting the system up, I've experienced that the inverter will sell and function fine with all the settings set up as Grid Tied mode, but it does not play nice when the grid is gone , and the Generator is brought in as the AC source. We have installed an external transfer switch to switch the inverters' AC input, from either the utility or the existing backup generator ( if the grid fails), automatically. The manual states that the inverter's two input selections can be programmed for seperate input modes, via the Input Type menu. Ive not been able to get this accomplished. When simulating a grid outage, thus changing the AC input to the inverter being from the Generator, the inverter will not synch to the AC power to charge the batteries. The only way that I can get the inverter to synch, is to switch the input mode to GEN from GRID. This is not ideal since the client would need to be present to make the button push, even though the generator will be started automatically if the grid were to go down (hopefully) , just as it did before. With no way to contact Outback , can someone advise how to properly program the inverter/ MATE3S for this project? Equipment onsite: Single VFXR3648 inverter Two FM60 CCs Hub4 MATE3S ATS with Dual Relays 50A L.A. Battery bank Here's how we would like it to work: Utility power ON: Sell excess power once the batteries have gone through the Absorb cycle. Batteries remain full in case of a utility failure. Utility Outage: ATS now feeds Inv AC input via Generator if needed. Inverter runs the home as it did , off grid. If the battery voltage drops and the AGS is engaged, the inverter will use that input to charge the batteries as usual. If the grid comes back on and the gen is running, the generator can still run, with no connection to the inverter. With the grid now charging the battery bank, and the AGS will enventually shut off the Gen. Based on voltage. Contact me off list if necessary Jeremy Rodriguez All Solar Inc. Penrose, CO 719-276-4954 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Oct 23 23:05:04 2024 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 20:05:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Outback FXR Series as GTGBB on existing Off Grid Home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What gen set are you using Fun times On Wed, Oct 23, 2024, 7:47 PM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches, > We have a client that has brought utility power in and we now have the > system hooked up to the utility. > In setting the system up, I've experienced that the inverter will sell and > function fine with all the settings set up as* Grid Tied* mode, but it > does not play nice when the grid is gone , and the Generator is brought in > as the AC source. > We have installed an external transfer switch to switch the inverters' AC > input, from either the utility or the existing backup generator ( if the > grid fails), automatically. > > The manual states that the inverter's two input selections can be > programmed for seperate input modes, via the* Input* *Type* menu. Ive not > been able to get this accomplished. > > When simulating a grid outage, thus changing the AC input to the inverter > being from the Generator, the inverter will not synch to the AC power to > charge the batteries. > The only way that I can get the inverter to synch, is to switch the input > mode to *GEN* from *GRID.* > This is not ideal since the client would need to be present to make the > button push, even though the generator will be started automatically if the > grid were to go down (hopefully) , just as it did before. > > With no way to contact Outback , can someone advise how to properly > program the inverter/ MATE3S for this project? > Equipment onsite: > Single VFXR3648 inverter > Two FM60 CCs > Hub4 > MATE3S > ATS with Dual Relays 50A > L.A. Battery bank > > Here's how we would like it to work: > Utility power ON: > Sell excess power once the batteries have gone through the Absorb cycle. > Batteries remain full in case of a utility failure. > Utility Outage: > ATS now feeds Inv AC input via Generator if needed. > Inverter runs the home as it did , off grid. > If the battery voltage drops and the AGS is engaged, the inverter will use > that input to charge the batteries as usual. If the grid comes back on and > the gen is running, the generator can still run, with no connection to the > inverter. With the grid now charging the battery bank, and the AGS will > enventually shut off the Gen. Based on voltage. > Contact me off list if necessary > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > All Solar Inc. > Penrose, CO > 719-276-4954 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Thu Oct 24 08:20:54 2024 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 12:20:54 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Outback FXR Series as GTGBB on existing Off Grid Home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Generac Eco Gen Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. On Oct 23, 2024, at 9:06 PM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches wrote:  What gen set are you using Fun times On Wed, Oct 23, 2024, 7:47 PM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches > wrote: Wrenches, We have a client that has brought utility power in and we now have the system hooked up to the utility. In setting the system up, I've experienced that the inverter will sell and function fine with all the settings set up as Grid Tied mode, but it does not play nice when the grid is gone , and the Generator is brought in as the AC source. We have installed an external transfer switch to switch the inverters' AC input, from either the utility or the existing backup generator ( if the grid fails), automatically. The manual states that the inverter's two input selections can be programmed for seperate input modes, via the Input Type menu. Ive not been able to get this accomplished. When simulating a grid outage, thus changing the AC input to the inverter being from the Generator, the inverter will not synch to the AC power to charge the batteries. The only way that I can get the inverter to synch, is to switch the input mode to GEN from GRID. This is not ideal since the client would need to be present to make the button push, even though the generator will be started automatically if the grid were to go down (hopefully) , just as it did before. With no way to contact Outback , can someone advise how to properly program the inverter/ MATE3S for this project? Equipment onsite: Single VFXR3648 inverter Two FM60 CCs Hub4 MATE3S ATS with Dual Relays 50A L.A. Battery bank Here's how we would like it to work: Utility power ON: Sell excess power once the batteries have gone through the Absorb cycle. Batteries remain full in case of a utility failure. Utility Outage: ATS now feeds Inv AC input via Generator if needed. Inverter runs the home as it did , off grid. If the battery voltage drops and the AGS is engaged, the inverter will use that input to charge the batteries as usual. If the grid comes back on and the gen is running, the generator can still run, with no connection to the inverter. With the grid now charging the battery bank, and the AGS will enventually shut off the Gen. Based on voltage. Contact me off list if necessary Jeremy Rodriguez All Solar Inc. Penrose, CO 719-276-4954 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Thu Oct 24 12:10:35 2024 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 09:10:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Outback FXR Series as GTGBB on existing Off Grid Home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: How large is the PV generation side relative to the typical daytime consumption habits? Obviously selling to the grid is the preferred approach but don't discount the effectiveness of utilizing HBX mode either. I've had great success optimizing HBX mode on many of my sites in conjunction with Opticsre. Most are Blue Ion but a couple with sealed FLA set to almost no discharge working extremely well too. Good luck, Nick On Thu, Oct 24, 2024 at 5:21 AM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Generac Eco Gen > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > > On Oct 23, 2024, at 9:06 PM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > What gen set are you using > Fun times > > On Wed, Oct 23, 2024, 7:47 PM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Wrenches, >> We have a client that has brought utility power in and we now have the >> system hooked up to the utility. >> In setting the system up, I've experienced that the inverter will sell >> and function fine with all the settings set up as* Grid Tied* mode, but >> it does not play nice when the grid is gone , and the Generator is brought >> in as the AC source. >> We have installed an external transfer switch to switch the inverters' AC >> input, from either the utility or the existing backup generator ( if the >> grid fails), automatically. >> >> The manual states that the inverter's two input selections can be >> programmed for seperate input modes, via the* Input* *Type* menu. Ive >> not been able to get this accomplished. >> >> When simulating a grid outage, thus changing the AC input to the inverter >> being from the Generator, the inverter will not synch to the AC power to >> charge the batteries. >> The only way that I can get the inverter to synch, is to switch the input >> mode to *GEN* from *GRID.* >> This is not ideal since the client would need to be present to make the >> button push, even though the generator will be started automatically if the >> grid were to go down (hopefully) , just as it did before. >> >> With no way to contact Outback , can someone advise how to properly >> program the inverter/ MATE3S for this project? >> Equipment onsite: >> Single VFXR3648 inverter >> Two FM60 CCs >> Hub4 >> MATE3S >> ATS with Dual Relays 50A >> L.A. Battery bank >> >> Here's how we would like it to work: >> Utility power ON: >> Sell excess power once the batteries have gone through the Absorb cycle. >> Batteries remain full in case of a utility failure. >> Utility Outage: >> ATS now feeds Inv AC input via Generator if needed. >> Inverter runs the home as it did , off grid. >> If the battery voltage drops and the AGS is engaged, the inverter will >> use that input to charge the batteries as usual. If the grid comes back on >> and the gen is running, the generator can still run, with no connection to >> the inverter. With the grid now charging the battery bank, and the AGS >> will enventually shut off the Gen. Based on voltage. >> Contact me off list if necessary >> >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> All Solar Inc. >> Penrose, CO >> 719-276-4954 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Oct 24 12:27:53 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 09:27:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Outback FXR Series as GTGBB on existing Off Grid Home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7e754053ff89ac3b16a61d23415b66e2@mail.gmail.com> Jeremy: Question: Did you install the ATS as a work-around to the problem described? William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Wednesday, October 23, 2024 7:47 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Jeremy Rodriguez *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] New Outback FXR Series as GTGBB on existing Off Grid Home Wrenches, We have a client that has brought utility power in and we now have the system hooked up to the utility. In setting the system up, I've experienced that the inverter will sell and function fine with all the settings set up as* Grid Tied* mode, but it does not play nice when the grid is gone , and the Generator is brought in as the AC source. We have installed an external transfer switch to switch the inverters' AC input, from either the utility or the existing backup generator ( if the grid fails), automatically. The manual states that the inverter's two input selections can be programmed for seperate input modes, via the* Input* *Type* menu. Ive not been able to get this accomplished. When simulating a grid outage, thus changing the AC input to the inverter being from the Generator, the inverter will not synch to the AC power to charge the batteries. The only way that I can get the inverter to synch, is to switch the input mode to *GEN* from *GRID.* This is not ideal since the client would need to be present to make the button push, even though the generator will be started automatically if the grid were to go down (hopefully) , just as it did before. With no way to contact Outback , can someone advise how to properly program the inverter/ MATE3S for this project? Equipment onsite: Single VFXR3648 inverter Two FM60 CCs Hub4 MATE3S ATS with Dual Relays 50A L.A. Battery bank Here's how we would like it to work: Utility power ON: Sell excess power once the batteries have gone through the Absorb cycle. Batteries remain full in case of a utility failure. Utility Outage: ATS now feeds Inv AC input via Generator if needed. Inverter runs the home as it did , off grid. If the battery voltage drops and the AGS is engaged, the inverter will use that input to charge the batteries as usual. If the grid comes back on and the gen is running, the generator can still run, with no connection to the inverter. With the grid now charging the battery bank, and the AGS will enventually shut off the Gen. Based on voltage. Contact me off list if necessary Jeremy Rodriguez All Solar Inc. Penrose, CO 719-276-4954 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thomashall at SolarSpecialtyGroup.com Thu Oct 24 12:54:41 2024 From: thomashall at SolarSpecialtyGroup.com (Thomas Hall) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 16:54:41 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module snail trails In-Reply-To: <56e60e9e-b6f4-4ad6-93e2-184153cbd442@dixonpowersystems.com> References: <56e60e9e-b6f4-4ad6-93e2-184153cbd442@dixonpowersystems.com> Message-ID:  Hello Jon. Another thought……Was the site using the SMA combiner boxes with the 3 SMA Tripower 15000TL-US -10? We have had ground faults occur there internally. If it has a green test button inside the combiner box unit (polarity tester) …. replace the combiner with a different manufactures equipment. I believe the model is called SMA 1000-US-11 String Combiner w/ Disconnect. Thomas Hall Solar Specialty Group INC C-33998 dba Specialty Group Electric 808-854-9539 thomashall at solarspecialtygroup.com www.solarspecialtygroup.com Certified Thermographer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ® 031310-92 From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jon Dixon via RE-wrenches Date: Wednesday, October 23, 2024 at 12:04 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: Jon Dixon Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Module snail trails Thanks Bryan, I do not know the PV connector types for the modules or extension cables we have not started working on it. I need to put a plan together for the customer first. Good to know about the Amphenol H4 issues. Thank You Jonathan Dixon Dixon Power Systems 3250 N 20th St Ste 1 Lincoln, NE 68521 402-467-3240 jon at dixonpowersystems.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 16:44:51 +0000 > From: Bryan Norkunas > To: "re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org" > , "jon at dixonpowersystems.com" > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Module snail trails > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > > Jon, > > Do you recall which PV connectors were on the modules and what they used for extension cables? > > Around that time, Amphenol H4 connectors had issues due to the plastic housings failing and allowing water into the connections. > > > > Bryan Norkunas > > PV-Cables Inc. > > 989 Milton Ave Ste 1D > > Ferndale CA 95536 > > (707) 923-3000 office > > www.pv-cables.com > > [cid:aa320544-f89d-44fc-a3e9-bb468c2d9953] > > > > [cid:867e1cba-ab13-4a98-9ecf-200189c32b6d] Please print only if necessary. > > > > NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by replying to this email, and destroy all copies of the original message. > > > > ________________________________ > From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jon Dixon via RE-wrenches > Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2024 9:07 AM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Cc: Jon Dixon > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module snail trails > > Hello All, > > I have a local utility with a 50Kw array installed in 2015 consisting of 200 ReneSola 250w modules and 3 SMA Tripower 15000TL-US -10. They are having Arc fault code on two of the inverters. This has been going on for a few years now. It happens a couple times a year generally after a large rain. They just reset the code and it comes back to life. > > They gave me a walk through and we noticed that a number of modules have snail trails. I have attached a closeup picture I took and IR views of affected module and non affected. It was a 90 deg day when the utility took the IR pictures. > > Causes for snail trails that I found: > > * The difference in chemical properties of EVA foils and the silver contacts > * The degradation extent of the EVA material > * Water vapor permeability of the solar panel?s backsheet material > > I did find that if you have snail trails you will have micro fractures. I did see some info that micro fractures could cause arc faults. > > Finally my question is can snail trails cause arc faults also? > > > Thanks Jon > > -- > Jonathan Dixon > Dixon Power Systems > 3250 N 20th St Ste 1 > Lincoln, NE 68521 > 402-467-3240 > jon at dixonpowersystems.com > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: Outlook-znsett2t.png > Type: image/png > Size: 78625 bytes > Desc: Outlook-znsett2t.png > URL: > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: Outlook-jqwvacbt.png > Type: image/png > Size: 2978 bytes > Desc: Outlook-jqwvacbt.png > URL: > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 17:09:53 +0000 > From: Bryan Norkunas > To: "re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org" > , "jon at dixonpowersystems.com" > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Module snail trails > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > > Looking at the pictures again, I wonder if there might be a pinhole in the back lamination that is allowing water into the module. > > > > > Bryan Norkunas > > PV-Cables Inc. > > 989 Milton Ave Ste 1D > > Ferndale CA 95536 > > (707) 923-3000 office > > www.pv-cables.com > > [cid:8b840384-c5f3-42a6-b643-c70a0c8359f7] > > > > [cid:359044c7-87e0-453e-8b12-d03863f07a98] Please print only if necessary. > > > > NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by replying to this email, and destroy all copies of the original message. > > > > ________________________________ > From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jon Dixon via RE-wrenches > Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2024 9:07 AM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Cc: Jon Dixon > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module snail trails > > Hello All, > > I have a local utility with a 50Kw array installed in 2015 consisting of 200 ReneSola 250w modules and 3 SMA Tripower 15000TL-US -10. They are having Arc fault code on two of the inverters. This has been going on for a few years now. It happens a couple times a year generally after a large rain. They just reset the code and it comes back to life. > > They gave me a walk through and we noticed that a number of modules have snail trails. I have attached a closeup picture I took and IR views of affected module and non affected. It was a 90 deg day when the utility took the IR pictures. > > Causes for snail trails that I found: > > * The difference in chemical properties of EVA foils and the silver contacts > * The degradation extent of the EVA material > * Water vapor permeability of the solar panel?s backsheet material > > I did find that if you have snail trails you will have micro fractures. I did see some info that micro fractures could cause arc faults. > > Finally my question is can snail trails cause arc faults also? > > > Thanks Jon > > -- > Jonathan Dixon > Dixon Power Systems > 3250 N 20th St Ste 1 > Lincoln, NE 68521 > 402-467-3240 > jon at dixonpowersystems.com > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: Outlook-wabazobn.png > Type: image/png > Size: 78625 bytes > Desc: Outlook-wabazobn.png > URL: > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: Outlook-qs0datbf.png > Type: image/png > Size: 2978 bytes > Desc: Outlook-qs0datbf.png > URL: > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > ------------------------------ > > End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 17, Issue 319 > ******************************************** > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Thu Oct 24 14:10:29 2024 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 18:10:29 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Outback FXR Series as GTGBB on existing Off Grid Home In-Reply-To: <7e754053ff89ac3b16a61d23415b66e2@mail.gmail.com> References: <7e754053ff89ac3b16a61d23415b66e2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: We Installed the automatic transfer switch so the inverter AC input could be either grid or generator. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. On Oct 24, 2024, at 10:41 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote:  Jeremy: Question: Did you install the ATS as a work-around to the problem described? William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2024 7:47 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jeremy Rodriguez Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Outback FXR Series as GTGBB on existing Off Grid Home Wrenches, We have a client that has brought utility power in and we now have the system hooked up to the utility. In setting the system up, I've experienced that the inverter will sell and function fine with all the settings set up as Grid Tied mode, but it does not play nice when the grid is gone , and the Generator is brought in as the AC source. We have installed an external transfer switch to switch the inverters' AC input, from either the utility or the existing backup generator ( if the grid fails), automatically. The manual states that the inverter's two input selections can be programmed for seperate input modes, via the Input Type menu. Ive not been able to get this accomplished. When simulating a grid outage, thus changing the AC input to the inverter being from the Generator, the inverter will not synch to the AC power to charge the batteries. The only way that I can get the inverter to synch, is to switch the input mode to GEN from GRID. This is not ideal since the client would need to be present to make the button push, even though the generator will be started automatically if the grid were to go down (hopefully) , just as it did before. With no way to contact Outback , can someone advise how to properly program the inverter/ MATE3S for this project? Equipment onsite: Single VFXR3648 inverter Two FM60 CCs Hub4 MATE3S ATS with Dual Relays 50A L.A. Battery bank Here's how we would like it to work: Utility power ON: Sell excess power once the batteries have gone through the Absorb cycle. Batteries remain full in case of a utility failure. Utility Outage: ATS now feeds Inv AC input via Generator if needed. Inverter runs the home as it did , off grid. If the battery voltage drops and the AGS is engaged, the inverter will use that input to charge the batteries as usual. If the grid comes back on and the gen is running, the generator can still run, with no connection to the inverter. With the grid now charging the battery bank, and the AGS will enventually shut off the Gen. Based on voltage. Contact me off list if necessary Jeremy Rodriguez All Solar Inc. Penrose, CO 719-276-4954 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chriswatsww at outlook.com Thu Oct 24 14:25:25 2024 From: chriswatsww at outlook.com (chriswatsww at outlook.com) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 18:25:25 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Outback FXR Series as GTGBB on existing Off Grid Home In-Reply-To: References: <7e754053ff89ac3b16a61d23415b66e2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jeremy, We have a client with 4 of the VFXR3648's in the same situation, GTBB and you've described our solution perfectly although we installed a manual transfer switch instead of the ATS, so if someone has figured out a better solution we'd like to know what it is, thanks. Chris Worcester chriswatsww at outlook.com 530-448-9692 Sent from my Galaxy -------- Original message -------- From: Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches Date: 10/24/24 11:11 AM (GMT-08:00) To: william at millersolar.com, RE-wrenches Cc: Jeremy Rodriguez Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] New Outback FXR Series as GTGBB on existing Off Grid Home We Installed the automatic transfer switch so the inverter AC input could be either grid or generator. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. On Oct 24, 2024, at 10:41 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote:  Jeremy: Question: Did you install the ATS as a work-around to the problem described? William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2024 7:47 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jeremy Rodriguez Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Outback FXR Series as GTGBB on existing Off Grid Home Wrenches, We have a client that has brought utility power in and we now have the system hooked up to the utility. In setting the system up, I've experienced that the inverter will sell and function fine with all the settings set up as Grid Tied mode, but it does not play nice when the grid is gone , and the Generator is brought in as the AC source. We have installed an external transfer switch to switch the inverters' AC input, from either the utility or the existing backup generator ( if the grid fails), automatically. The manual states that the inverter's two input selections can be programmed for seperate input modes, via the Input Type menu. Ive not been able to get this accomplished. When simulating a grid outage, thus changing the AC input to the inverter being from the Generator, the inverter will not synch to the AC power to charge the batteries. The only way that I can get the inverter to synch, is to switch the input mode to GEN from GRID. This is not ideal since the client would need to be present to make the button push, even though the generator will be started automatically if the grid were to go down (hopefully) , just as it did before. With no way to contact Outback , can someone advise how to properly program the inverter/ MATE3S for this project? Equipment onsite: Single VFXR3648 inverter Two FM60 CCs Hub4 MATE3S ATS with Dual Relays 50A L.A. Battery bank Here's how we would like it to work: Utility power ON: Sell excess power once the batteries have gone through the Absorb cycle. Batteries remain full in case of a utility failure. Utility Outage: ATS now feeds Inv AC input via Generator if needed. Inverter runs the home as it did , off grid. If the battery voltage drops and the AGS is engaged, the inverter will use that input to charge the batteries as usual. If the grid comes back on and the gen is running, the generator can still run, with no connection to the inverter. With the grid now charging the battery bank, and the AGS will enventually shut off the Gen. Based on voltage. Contact me off list if necessary Jeremy Rodriguez All Solar Inc. Penrose, CO 719-276-4954 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Oct 24 17:57:37 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 15:57:37 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Outback FXR Series as GTGBB on existing Off Grid Home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jeremy There are two issues I think. 1 is that the inverter won’t connect. And I don’t have an answer why the inverter won’t in sell mode but will in gen mode. Maybe the generator is slightly out of the more narrow window for grid. I presume you’ve checked hz and volts and they are in spec for grid? I know sometimes the frequency control can be slightly variable without a load. I’ve had success in the past getting inverters to connect to a generator with putting some dumb loads on it. Like incandescent lights or small heater. 2. Maybe it’s a good thing it won’t because if it did connect wouldn’t it be possible for the inverter to try to sell to the generator? If you didn’t have to change grid to Gen? Jay > On Oct 23, 2024, at 8:47 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Wrenches, > We have a client that has brought utility power in and we now have the system hooked up to the utility. > In setting the system up, I've experienced that the inverter will sell and function fine with all the settings set up as Grid Tied mode, but it does not play nice when the grid is gone , and the Generator is brought in as the AC source. > We have installed an external transfer switch to switch the inverters' AC input, from either the utility or the existing backup generator ( if the grid fails), automatically. > > The manual states that the inverter's two input selections can be programmed for seperate input modes, via the Input Type menu. Ive not been able to get this accomplished. > > When simulating a grid outage, thus changing the AC input to the inverter being from the Generator, the inverter will not synch to the AC power to charge the batteries. > The only way that I can get the inverter to synch, is to switch the input mode to GEN from GRID. > This is not ideal since the client would need to be present to make the button push, even though the generator will be started automatically if the grid were to go down (hopefully) , just as it did before. > > With no way to contact Outback , can someone advise how to properly program the inverter/ MATE3S for this project? > Equipment onsite: > Single VFXR3648 inverter > Two FM60 CCs > Hub4 > MATE3S > ATS with Dual Relays 50A > L.A. Battery bank > > Here's how we would like it to work: > Utility power ON: > Sell excess power once the batteries have gone through the Absorb cycle. Batteries remain full in case of a utility failure. > Utility Outage: > ATS now feeds Inv AC input via Generator if needed. > Inverter runs the home as it did , off grid. > If the battery voltage drops and the AGS is engaged, the inverter will use that input to charge the batteries as usual. If the grid comes back on and the gen is running, the generator can still run, with no connection to the inverter. With the grid now charging the battery bank, and the AGS will enventually shut off the Gen. Based on voltage. > Contact me off list if necessary > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > All Solar Inc. > Penrose, CO > 719-276-4954 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pureenergysolar at hotmail.com Thu Oct 24 18:41:27 2024 From: pureenergysolar at hotmail.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 22:41:27 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Outback FXR Series as GTGBB on existing Off Grid Home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It is my understanding that the FXR will not "automatically" switch from Grid Input to Gen. To my knowledge this is a manual option only. I do not recall any way to make this happen automatically. That would have been great. You can however still call for the generator at a low V setting and have the generator power an external charger to boost the batteries. I think the brand we used to use was IOTA however, I have also seen golf cart chargers used. Wayne Irwin President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com PureEnergySolar.com SolarChargingStation.com 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jay via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2024 5:57 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jay Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] New Outback FXR Series as GTGBB on existing Off Grid Home Hi Jeremy There are two issues I think. 1 is that the inverter won’t connect. And I don’t have an answer why the inverter won’t in sell mode but will in gen mode. Maybe the generator is slightly out of the more narrow window for grid. I presume you’ve checked hz and volts and they are in spec for grid? I know sometimes the frequency control can be slightly variable without a load. I’ve had success in the past getting inverters to connect to a generator with putting some dumb loads on it. Like incandescent lights or small heater. 2. Maybe it’s a good thing it won’t because if it did connect wouldn’t it be possible for the inverter to try to sell to the generator? If you didn’t have to change grid to Gen? Jay On Oct 23, 2024, at 8:47 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches wrote:  Wrenches, We have a client that has brought utility power in and we now have the system hooked up to the utility. In setting the system up, I've experienced that the inverter will sell and function fine with all the settings set up as Grid Tied mode, but it does not play nice when the grid is gone , and the Generator is brought in as the AC source. We have installed an external transfer switch to switch the inverters' AC input, from either the utility or the existing backup generator ( if the grid fails), automatically. The manual states that the inverter's two input selections can be programmed for seperate input modes, via the Input Type menu. Ive not been able to get this accomplished. When simulating a grid outage, thus changing the AC input to the inverter being from the Generator, the inverter will not synch to the AC power to charge the batteries. The only way that I can get the inverter to synch, is to switch the input mode to GEN from GRID. This is not ideal since the client would need to be present to make the button push, even though the generator will be started automatically if the grid were to go down (hopefully) , just as it did before. With no way to contact Outback , can someone advise how to properly program the inverter/ MATE3S for this project? Equipment onsite: Single VFXR3648 inverter Two FM60 CCs Hub4 MATE3S ATS with Dual Relays 50A L.A. Battery bank Here's how we would like it to work: Utility power ON: Sell excess power once the batteries have gone through the Absorb cycle. Batteries remain full in case of a utility failure. Utility Outage: ATS now feeds Inv AC input via Generator if needed. Inverter runs the home as it did , off grid. If the battery voltage drops and the AGS is engaged, the inverter will use that input to charge the batteries as usual. If the grid comes back on and the gen is running, the generator can still run, with no connection to the inverter. With the grid now charging the battery bank, and the AGS will enventually shut off the Gen. Based on voltage. Contact me off list if necessary Jeremy Rodriguez All Solar Inc. Penrose, CO 719-276-4954 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Oct 24 19:15:44 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 17:15:44 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module snail trails In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Thu Oct 24 19:55:12 2024 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 16:55:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Outback FXR Series as GTGBB on existing Off Grid Home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As I remember the FXR inverters will rarely connect to any generators beside very well controlled or inverter type generators. I agree that I don't think there is any automatic transfer from grid tie to generator input. Brad Bassett On Thu, Oct 24, 2024 at 3:42 PM Wayne Irwin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > It is my understanding that the FXR will not "automatically" switch from > Grid Input to Gen. > To my knowledge this is a manual option only. > I do not recall any way to make this happen automatically. That would have > been great. > > You can however still call for the generator at a low V setting and have > the generator power an external charger to boost the batteries. > I think the brand we used to use was IOTA however, I have also seen golf > cart chargers used. > > > Wayne Irwin > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com > PureEnergySolar.com > SolarChargingStation.com > 352 377-6527 Office > 352 336-3299 Fax > > > The Sun Is Always Shining! > > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are > not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use > or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail > and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. > > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Jay via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Thursday, October 24, 2024 5:57 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jay > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] New Outback FXR Series as GTGBB on existing > Off Grid Home > > Hi Jeremy > > There are two issues I think. > > 1 is that the inverter won’t connect. > And I don’t have an answer why the inverter won’t in sell mode but will in > gen mode. Maybe the generator is slightly out of the more narrow window for > grid. I presume you’ve checked hz and volts and they are in spec for grid? > I know sometimes the frequency control can be slightly variable without a > load. I’ve had success in the past getting inverters to connect to a > generator with putting some dumb loads on it. Like incandescent lights or > small heater. > > 2. Maybe it’s a good thing it won’t because if it did connect wouldn’t it > be possible for the inverter to try to sell to the generator? If you > didn’t have to change grid to Gen? > > Jay > > On Oct 23, 2024, at 8:47 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Wrenches, > We have a client that has brought utility power in and we now have the > system hooked up to the utility. > In setting the system up, I've experienced that the inverter will sell and > function fine with all the settings set up as* Grid Tied* mode, but it > does not play nice when the grid is gone , and the Generator is brought in > as the AC source. > We have installed an external transfer switch to switch the inverters' AC > input, from either the utility or the existing backup generator ( if the > grid fails), automatically. > > The manual states that the inverter's two input selections can be > programmed for seperate input modes, via the* Input* *Type* menu. Ive not > been able to get this accomplished. > > When simulating a grid outage, thus changing the AC input to the inverter > being from the Generator, the inverter will not synch to the AC power to > charge the batteries. > The only way that I can get the inverter to synch, is to switch the input > mode to *GEN* from *GRID.* > This is not ideal since the client would need to be present to make the > button push, even though the generator will be started automatically if the > grid were to go down (hopefully) , just as it did before. > > With no way to contact Outback , can someone advise how to properly > program the inverter/ MATE3S for this project? > Equipment onsite: > Single VFXR3648 inverter > Two FM60 CCs > Hub4 > MATE3S > ATS with Dual Relays 50A > L.A. Battery bank > > Here's how we would like it to work: > Utility power ON: > Sell excess power once the batteries have gone through the Absorb cycle. > Batteries remain full in case of a utility failure. > Utility Outage: > ATS now feeds Inv AC input via Generator if needed. > Inverter runs the home as it did , off grid. > If the battery voltage drops and the AGS is engaged, the inverter will use > that input to charge the batteries as usual. If the grid comes back on and > the gen is running, the generator can still run, with no connection to the > inverter. With the grid now charging the battery bank, and the AGS will > enventually shut off the Gen. Based on voltage. > Contact me off list if necessary > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > All Solar Inc. > Penrose, CO > 719-276-4954 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Thu Oct 24 20:12:23 2024 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 17:12:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Outback FXR Series as GTGBB on existing Off Grid Home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1729815143.44124609@webmail.finestplanet.com> One of the unfortunate changes from the SW to FX /FXR inverter architecture was the elimination of two AC inputs. The whole point of a battery based inverter is for backup power, so this becomes a huge issue when a grid tied system has a grid outage long enough to necessitate generator charging. That is why people either opt for an external Iota style charger, or the famous "DT Kludge", which is what I have on my home system for those rare times when I need generator charging. Todd On Thursday, October 24, 2024 4:55pm, "Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches" said: As I remember the FXR inverters will rarely connect to any generators beside very well controlled or inverter type generators. I agree that I don't think there is any automatic transfer from grid tie to generator input. Brad Bassett On Thu, Oct 24, 2024 at 3:42 PM Wayne Irwin via RE-wrenches <[ re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org )> wrote: It is my understanding that the FXR will not "automatically" switch from Grid Input to Gen. To my knowledge this is a manual option only. I do not recall any way to make this happen automatically. That would have been great. You can however still call for the generator at a low V setting and have the generator power an external charger to boost the batteries. I think the brand we used to use was IOTA however, I have also seen golf cart chargers used. Wayne Irwin President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com [ PureEnergySolar.com ]( http://pureenergysolar.com/ ) [ SolarChargingStation.com ]( http://solarchargingstation.com/ ) 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches <[ re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org )> on behalf of Jay via RE-wrenches <[ re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org )> Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2024 5:57 PM To: RE-wrenches <[ re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org )> Cc: Jay <[ jay.peltz at gmail.com ]( mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com )> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] New Outback FXR Series as GTGBB on existing Off Grid Home Hi Jeremy There are two issues I think. 1 is that the inverter won’t connect. And I don’t have an answer why the inverter won’t in sell mode but will in gen mode. Maybe the generator is slightly out of the more narrow window for grid. I presume you’ve checked hz and volts and they are in spec for grid? I know sometimes the frequency control can be slightly variable without a load. I’ve had success in the past getting inverters to connect to a generator with putting some dumb loads on it. Like incandescent lights or small heater. 2. Maybe it’s a good thing it won’t because if it did connect wouldn’t it be possible for the inverter to try to sell to the generator? If you didn’t have to change grid to Gen? Jay On Oct 23, 2024, at 8:47 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches <[ re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org )> wrote: Wrenches, We have a client that has brought utility power in and we now have the system hooked up to the utility. In setting the system up, I've experienced that the inverter will sell and function fine with all the settings set up as Grid Tied mode, but it does not play nice when the grid is gone , and the Generator is brought in as the AC source. We have installed an external transfer switch to switch the inverters' AC input, from either the utility or the existing backup generator ( if the grid fails), automatically. The manual states that the inverter's two input selections can be programmed for seperate input modes, via the Input Type menu. Ive not been able to get this accomplished. When simulating a grid outage, thus changing the AC input to the inverter being from the Generator, the inverter will not synch to the AC power to charge the batteries. The only way that I can get the inverter to synch, is to switch the input mode to GEN from GRID. This is not ideal since the client would need to be present to make the button push, even though the generator will be started automatically if the grid were to go down (hopefully) , just as it did before. With no way to contact Outback , can someone advise how to properly program the inverter/ MATE3S for this project? Equipment onsite: Single VFXR3648 inverter Two FM60 CCs Hub4 MATE3S ATS with Dual Relays 50A L.A. Battery bank Here's how we would like it to work: Utility power ON: Sell excess power once the batteries have gone through the Absorb cycle. Batteries remain full in case of a utility failure. Utility Outage: ATS now feeds Inv AC input via Generator if needed. Inverter runs the home as it did , off grid. If the battery voltage drops and the AGS is engaged, the inverter will use that input to charge the batteries as usual. If the grid comes back on and the gen is running, the generator can still run, with no connection to the inverter. With the grid now charging the battery bank, and the AGS will enventually shut off the Gen. Based on voltage. Contact me off list if necessary Jeremy Rodriguez All Solar Inc. Penrose, CO 719-276-4954_______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: [ http://re-wrenches.org ]( http://re-wrenches.org ) List Address: [ RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ) Change listserver email address & settings: [ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ) There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: [ https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ ]( https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ ) [ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ) List rules & etiquette: [ http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ]( http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ) Check out or update participant bios: [ http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ]( http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ) _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: [ http://re-wrenches.org ]( http://re-wrenches.org ) List Address: [ RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ) Change listserver email address & settings: [ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ) There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: [ https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ ]( https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ ) [ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ) List rules & etiquette: [ http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ]( http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ) Check out or update participant bios: [ http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ]( http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ) Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Thu Oct 24 22:20:47 2024 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 19:20:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Outback FXR Series as GTGBB on existing Off Grid Home In-Reply-To: <1729815143.44124609@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <1729815143.44124609@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: I have switched to Radians to get back to where we were with SW4048’s. Also split phase and Optics make a good package. Heavy and wiring are a nuisance but reliability has been good and the few issues solved with board or module swaps. BUT with Outback in Limbo ????? On Thu, Oct 24, 2024 at 5:14 PM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > One of the unfortunate changes from the SW to FX /FXR inverter > architecture was the elimination of two AC inputs. The whole point of a > battery based inverter is for backup power, so this becomes a huge issue > when a grid tied system has a grid outage long enough to > necessitate generator charging. > > That is why people either opt for an external Iota style charger, or the > famous "DT Kludge", which is what I have on my home system for those rare > times when I need generator charging. > > Todd > > > > > On Thursday, October 24, 2024 4:55pm, "Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches" < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> said: > > As I remember the FXR inverters will rarely connect to any generators > beside very well controlled or inverter type generators. I agree that I > don't think there is any automatic transfer from grid tie to generator > input. > Brad Bassett > > On Thu, Oct 24, 2024 at 3:42 PM Wayne Irwin via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> It is my understanding that the FXR will not "automatically" switch from >> Grid Input to Gen. >> To my knowledge this is a manual option only. >> I do not recall any way to make this happen automatically. That would >> have been great. >> You can however still call for the generator at a low V setting and have >> the generator power an external charger to boost the batteries. >> I think the brand we used to use was IOTA however, I have also seen golf >> cart chargers used. >> Wayne Irwin >> President >> License #CVC56695 >> State Licensed Solar Contractor >> Pure Energy Solar International Inc. >> Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com >> PureEnergySolar.com >> SolarChargingStation.com >> 352 377-6527 Office >> 352 336-3299 Fax >> >> >> The Sun Is Always Shining! >> >> The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are >> not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use >> or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail >> and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* RE-wrenches on >> behalf of Jay via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Thursday, October 24, 2024 5:57 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* Jay >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] New Outback FXR Series as GTGBB on existing >> Off Grid Home >> >> Hi Jeremy >> There are two issues I think. >> 1 is that the inverter won’t connect. >> And I don’t have an answer why the inverter won’t in sell mode but will >> in gen mode. Maybe the generator is slightly out of the more narrow window >> for grid. I presume you’ve checked hz and volts and they are in spec for >> grid? I know sometimes the frequency control can be slightly variable >> without a load. I’ve had success in the past getting inverters to connect >> to a generator with putting some dumb loads on it. Like incandescent lights >> or small heater. >> 2. Maybe it’s a good thing it won’t because if it did connect wouldn’t it >> be possible for the inverter to try to sell to the generator? If you >> didn’t have to change grid to Gen? >> Jay >> >> On Oct 23, 2024, at 8:47 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Wrenches, >> We have a client that has brought utility power in and we now have the >> system hooked up to the utility. >> In setting the system up, I've experienced that the inverter will sell >> and function fine with all the settings set up as* Grid Tied* mode, but >> it does not play nice when the grid is gone , and the Generator is brought >> in as the AC source. >> We have installed an external transfer switch to switch the inverters' AC >> input, from either the utility or the existing backup generator ( if the >> grid fails), automatically. >> The manual states that the inverter's two input selections can be >> programmed for seperate input modes, via the* Input* *Type* menu. Ive >> not been able to get this accomplished. >> When simulating a grid outage, thus changing the AC input to the inverter >> being from the Generator, the inverter will not synch to the AC power to >> charge the batteries. >> The only way that I can get the inverter to synch, is to switch the input >> mode to *GEN* from *GRID.* >> This is not ideal since the client would need to be present to make the >> button push, even though the generator will be started automatically if the >> grid were to go down (hopefully) , just as it did before. >> >> With no way to contact Outback , can someone advise how to properly >> program the inverter/ MATE3S for this project? >> Equipment onsite: >> Single VFXR3648 inverter >> Two FM60 CCs >> Hub4 >> MATE3S >> ATS with Dual Relays 50A >> L.A. Battery bank >> Here's how we would like it to work: >> Utility power ON: >> Sell excess power once the batteries have gone through the Absorb cycle. >> Batteries remain full in case of a utility failure. >> Utility Outage: >> ATS now feeds Inv AC input via Generator if needed. >> Inverter runs the home as it did , off grid. >> If the battery voltage drops and the AGS is engaged, the inverter will >> use that input to charge the batteries as usual. If the grid comes back on >> and the gen is running, the generator can still run, with no connection to >> the inverter. With the grid now charging the battery bank, and the AGS >> will enventually shut off the Gen. Based on voltage. >> Contact me off list if necessary >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> All Solar Inc. >> Penrose, CO >> 719-276-4954 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com Thu Oct 24 23:30:55 2024 From: solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com (Solar Energy Solutions) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 20:30:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sanyo 190s References: <95023707-280E-4F17-B965-F62A08B1CBB8.ref@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <95023707-280E-4F17-B965-F62A08B1CBB8@yahoo.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Oct 25 09:14:38 2024 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2024 07:14:38 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LED light shutdown, Sol-Ark 5 Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, I visited a site with a Sol-Ark 5k, 2P yesterday. They had complained of power shutdowns. There were a lot of F34 AC Overload faults. I tracked it down to a single circuit. This circuit had a bank of about 12 LEDs, all on a single switch. The meter I brought, couldn't capture a significant inrush. The circuit had about 1A @120 Vac when running. It surprised me that these LEDs would cause this error, and perhaps there was something wrong with the LED driver (integrated in each bulb). I did a bit of research, and it looks like some LED drives can have extremely high inrush currents. It appears that these 12 drivers in parallel was enough to trip off the Sol-Ark. Curious if anyone else has ran into this. I did some research and it looks like there is a product called an inrush current limiter that we may be able to try. I pulled 4 of the bulbs and ran the whole house and switched it on and off and it worked fine about 10 x's. Is it possible that the Sol-Ark is overly protective of itself? The time scale on this inrush is typically 1-2 ms. Thanks for your input! -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Fri Oct 25 13:47:02 2024 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2024 11:47:02 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan warranty contact In-Reply-To: <62E3F9BF-7FA7-4D1E-B48C-1E135410169D@mavericksolar.com> References: <9FD9F168-D23E-41DC-B7E6-A87D6DA55325@solarwork.com> <62E3F9BF-7FA7-4D1E-B48C-1E135410169D@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: <002901db2705$e65261c0$b2f72540$@OasisMontana.com> Hi folks: Does anyone have a contact number or person for warranty issues regarding Trojan batteries? We have an elderly customer who purchased some this summer and we are getting the runaround, to put it mildly. Thanks in advance! Sincerely, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Oct 25 13:57:17 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2024 11:57:17 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Outback FXR Series as GTGBB on existing Off Grid Home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16881da8-07ed-493b-ae5c-cd83122c2203@solarray.com> I dealt with this on my "last" GTBB system.  I say last, because I only do backup systems now in places like Puerto Rico that actually need backup.  The FXRs will NOT connect to even an inverter generator (Yamaha EF3000), unless they are programmed to GEN.  Our solution was to save two different system profiles on the Mate, and the customer, after actuating the transfer switch was to switch to the other profile on the Mate.  Power reliability before GTBB:  99.9%,  Power Reliability after GTBB was installed: 80%. The FXRs had firmware problems that caused one inverter (and half the backup loads) to shut off when trying to sell back. Outback Tech support blamed me for the problems, and only after several months of shut downs, did they acknowledge that their firmware was actually the issue.  Customer spent $30k+ for less reliability. Magnum going away?  Probably a good thing too, since I had my first out of the box failure this Spring, after an almost perfect record over the past 15 years.  Customer was on generator power for over 2 months waiting for the replacement.  My whole career has been marked with great companies being sold, only to see them later drown in a cesspool of mediocre products and poor tech support. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 10/24/2024 5:55 PM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches wrote: > As I remember the FXR inverters will rarely connect to any generators > beside very well controlled or inverter type generators. I agree that > I don't think there is any automatic transfer from grid tie to > generator input. > > Brad Bassett > > On Thu, Oct 24, 2024 at 3:42 PM Wayne Irwin via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > It is my understanding that the FXR will not "automatically" > switch from Grid Input to Gen. > To my knowledge this is a manual option only. > I do not recall any way to make this happen automatically. That > would have been great. > > You can however still call for the generator at a low V setting > and have the generator power an external charger to boost the > batteries. > I think the brand we used to use was IOTA however, I have also > seen golf cart chargers used. > > > Wayne Irwin > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com > PureEnergySolar.com > SolarChargingStation.com > 352 377-6527 Office > 352 336-3299 Fax > > > The Sun Is Always Shining! > > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If > you are not the intended recipient and have received this message > in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me > immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your > computer system. Thank you. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on > behalf of Jay via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Thursday, October 24, 2024 5:57 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jay > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] New Outback FXR Series as GTGBB on > existing Off Grid Home > Hi Jeremy > > There are two issues I think. > > 1 is that the inverter won’t connect. > And I don’t have an answer why the inverter won’t in sell mode but > will in gen mode. Maybe the generator is slightly out of the more > narrow window for grid. I presume you’ve checked hz and volts and > they are in spec for grid?  I know sometimes the frequency control > can be slightly variable without a load. I’ve had success in the > past getting inverters to connect to a generator with putting some > dumb loads on it. Like incandescent lights or small heater. > > 2. Maybe it’s a good thing it won’t because if it did connect > wouldn’t it be possible for the inverter to try to sell to the > generator?  If you didn’t have to change grid to Gen? > > Jay > >> On Oct 23, 2024, at 8:47 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >>  >> Wrenches, >> We have a client that has brought utility power in and we now >> have the system hooked up to the utility. >> In setting the system up, I've experienced that the inverter will >> sell and function fine with all the settings set up as* Grid >> Tied* mode, but it does not play nice when the grid is gone , and >> the Generator is brought in as the AC source. >> We have installed an external transfer switch to switch the >> inverters' AC input, from either the utility or the existing >> backup generator ( if the grid fails), automatically. >> >> The manual states that the inverter's two input selections can be >> programmed for seperate input modes, via the* Input* *Type* menu. >> Ive not been able to get this accomplished. >> >> When simulating a grid outage, thus changing the AC input to the >> inverter being from the Generator, the inverter will not synch to >> the AC power to charge the batteries. >> The only way that I can get the inverter to synch, is to switch >> the input mode to *GEN* from *GRID.* >> This is not ideal since the client would need to be present to >> make the button push, even though the generator will be started >> automatically if the grid were to go down (hopefully) , just as >> it did before. >> With no way to contact Outback , can someone advise how to >> properly program the inverter/ MATE3S for this project? >> Equipment onsite: >> Single VFXR3648 inverter >> Two FM60 CCs >> Hub4 >> MATE3S >> ATS with Dual Relays 50A >> L.A. Battery bank >> >> Here's how we would like it to work: >> Utility power ON: >> Sell excess power once the batteries have gone through the Absorb >> cycle. Batteries remain full in case of a utility failure. >> Utility Outage: >> ATS now feeds Inv AC input via Generator if needed. >> Inverter runs the home as it did , off grid. >> If the battery voltage drops and the AGS is engaged, the inverter >> will use that input to charge the batteries as usual.  If the >> grid comes back on and the gen is running, the generator can >> still run, with no connection to the inverter. With the grid now >> charging the battery bank, and the AGS will enventually shut off >> the Gen. Based on voltage. >> Contact me off list if necessary >> >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> All Solar Inc. >> Penrose, CO >> 719-276-4954 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >> try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri Oct 25 17:32:06 2024 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2024 15:32:06 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunpower Sunvault Schneider XW F50 error code? Message-ID: Howdy esteemed Wrenches - Do any of my former colleagues from Sunpower (or Wrenches who were dealers) remember what the F50 error code on the Sunvault Schneider XW inverter was? I remember I only saw it a couple times in my 2 years there, and that it's not in the Schneider manual, it's a custom Sunpower error code (because Sunvault Schneiders had custom firmware, like using AC2 IN as grid sense). Of course they locked all my file access during my layoff zoom call last year, no access to my extensive notes on error codes since then. I simply don't remember. The question comes from a long-time colleague at a well-respected company that was a Sunpower dealer, and I'd like to help them out if I can. TIA, Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Oct 25 18:18:19 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2024 16:18:19 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mounting to a foam roof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi All, I have a job that the customer just told me they are going to get their roof foamed which fortunately I found out before I was installing the mounts/panels. It’s currently a metal roof, low pitch 5-10 degrees. Metal over battens over plywood. They want more insulation, it’s not clear how much but 4-8” probably and then probably some kind of covering on top of that, not sure what type yet. How are people mounting to this? It’s only going to be 4 panels in landscape so as to keep it as low a profile as possible. And no mounting on the ground isn’t an option. thanks in advance, jay From william at millersolar.com Fri Oct 25 18:32:40 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2024 15:32:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mounting to a foam roof Message-ID: <797cdb5e0322e0f04eba0cefe3aaea66@mail.gmail.com> https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/practices/Technical_Procedures/Rigid_over_decking/_Rigid_over_decking.html See attached for another view. Cant strips are specified. Wm Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, October 25, 2024 3:18 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: jay Subject: [RE-wrenches] mounting to a foam roof Hi All, I have a job that the customer just told me they are going to get their roof foamed which fortunately I found out before I was installing the mounts/panels. It’s currently a metal roof, low pitch 5-10 degrees. Metal over battens over plywood. They want more insulation, it’s not clear how much but 4-8” probably and then probably some kind of covering on top of that, not sure what type yet. How are people mounting to this? It’s only going to be 4 panels in landscape so as to keep it as low a profile as possible. And no mounting on the ground isn’t an option. thanks in advance, jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: P6230046.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 438313 bytes Desc: not available URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Fri Oct 25 18:46:50 2024 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2024 15:46:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mounting to a foam roof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ProSolar posts bolted directly to the wood decking and into rafters. they make several different post-heights. Roofers can easily waterproof cylindrical penetrations. the owners need to decide how many inches of foam thickness On Fri, Oct 25, 2024 at 3:18 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi All, > > I have a job that the customer just told me they are going to get their > roof foamed which fortunately I found out before I was installing the > mounts/panels. > > It’s currently a metal roof, low pitch 5-10 degrees. > Metal over battens over plywood. > > They want more insulation, it’s not clear how much but 4-8” probably and > then probably some kind of covering on top of that, not sure what type > yet. > > How are people mounting to this? It’s only going to be 4 panels in > landscape so as to keep it as low a profile as possible. > > And no mounting on the ground isn’t an option. > > thanks in advance, > > jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Fri Oct 25 20:17:21 2024 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2024 17:17:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] CTs to trigger a high current disconnect Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, Such an honor to address you gurus with this question. I need to monitor current on wires (split phase 240v) and if the current reaches a predetermined limit, let's say 100A, or 200A - I need a programmable meter/device that can trigger a 12v relay when current reaches the threshold. Thank you -- David Quattro CA License # 954020. C-10, C-46 ph (415) 312-2661 www.quattrosolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Fri Oct 25 20:20:49 2024 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jarvis) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2024 19:20:49 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] CTs to trigger a high current disconnect In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: CR Magnetics has current switches. thank you, -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 (apologies for the brevity and spelling...from my phone) On Fri, Oct 25, 2024, 7:19 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > Such an honor to address you gurus with this question. I need to > monitor current on wires (split phase 240v) and if the current reaches a > predetermined limit, let's say 100A, or 200A - I need a programmable > meter/device that can trigger a 12v relay when current reaches the > threshold. Thank you > -- > > David Quattro > CA License # 954020. C-10, C-46 > ph (415) 312-2661 > www.quattrosolar.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Oct 25 20:39:43 2024 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2024 17:39:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mounting to a foam roof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches, Unirac Das aluminum 2 piece standoff we used for just such occasions Fun times On Fri, Oct 25, 2024, 3:47 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > ProSolar posts bolted directly to the wood decking and into rafters. they > make several different post-heights. Roofers can easily waterproof > cylindrical penetrations. the owners need to decide how many inches of > foam thickness > > > > On Fri, Oct 25, 2024 at 3:18 PM jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> I have a job that the customer just told me they are going to get their >> roof foamed which fortunately I found out before I was installing the >> mounts/panels. >> >> It’s currently a metal roof, low pitch 5-10 degrees. >> Metal over battens over plywood. >> >> They want more insulation, it’s not clear how much but 4-8” probably and >> then probably some kind of covering on top of that, not sure what type >> yet. >> >> How are people mounting to this? It’s only going to be 4 panels in >> landscape so as to keep it as low a profile as possible. >> >> And no mounting on the ground isn’t an option. >> >> thanks in advance, >> >> jay >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rick at solshineenergy.com Mon Oct 28 09:30:32 2024 From: rick at solshineenergy.com (rick at solshineenergy.com) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2024 09:30:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Input In-Reply-To: References: <510916B7-86E4-44C4-8000-AC12460A5BC7@solshineenergy.com> Message-ID: An update on this “issue”. Sol-Ark Tech Support said that the high voltage DC is normal and not a concern. I believe they said it was a “static” voltage. They didn’t really provide an answer as to why it’s present. But I stick to my hypothesis that the source is the H-Bridge drive circuitry. William, to your point, I’m not thrilled that there’s a DC voltage on the AC output. But given that these units have been in operation for years without issue related to this input/output I’m not too worried. Thanks everyone! > On Oct 16, 2024, at 11:09 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Rick: > > You’re OK leaving this random high voltage DC on the AC output? > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Wed, Oct 16, 2024 at 6:09 PM rick at solshineenergy.com > wrote: >> Confirmed! Reading the same points on a different inverter yielded the same results. At a different site, I measured -188.8VDC to ground on both L1 and L2. >> >> My suspicion is that there’s leakage current via the H-bridge output. Just a thought. >> >> Case closed, thanks. >> >> Rick Brown >> Solshine Energy >> Solar Electric Contracting Services >> www.solshineenergy.com >> Roanoke, VA >> Office: 540.235.3095 >> Mobile: 540.808.9502 >> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE -- This email is intended only for the person(s) named in >> >> the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is >> >> confidential, privileged and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have >> >> received this message in error, please notify the sender of the error and delete the >> >> message. Thank you. >> >> >> >>> On Oct 16, 2024, at 3:49 PM, rick at solshineenergy.com wrote: >>> >>> Sorry I wasn’t clear. There’s no PV tied directly to the Sol-Ark however the Sunny Boy has 5.52 kW of PV. Again the SB is AC coupled to the Sol-Ark via its Load input/output. >>> >>> I can assure you that the DC is not coming from an external source. There are no faults at either inverter (measured or indicated by the inverter(s)). Both systems are operating normally. >>> >>> I’ll be looking at another site to verify whether these readings are consistent or an anomaly. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Rick >>> >>>> On Oct 15, 2024, at 3:49 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>> >>>> Rick: >>>> >>>> Two questions: >>>> >>>> 1. If you don’t have PV on this system, what are those glassy, flat things on the roof wired to the DC inputs of your Sunny Boy? >>>> >>>> 2. Think to yourself: What component(s) on this project could possibly produce high voltage DC? >>>> >>>> I think the answer to both questions is… PV panels. I highly suspect you have a PV ground fault. Proceed with caution. >>>> >>>> On the Sunny Boy I would check the DC voltage between L1 and ground, between L2 and ground and between neutral and ground. Do this in the operational configuration that is producing the DC voltage on the Gen inputs. >>>> >>>> While you are at it, check DC voltages between the Sunny Boy DC inputs to ground and between the Sunny Boy Chassis and ground. >>>> >>>> Check your GEC, GEC bonding conductor and all of the system EGCs. >>>> >>>> I would also check the GFDI fuse on the Sunny Boy. >>>> >>>> William Miller >>>> >>>> Miller Solar >>>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>>> 805-438-5600 >>>> www.millersolar.com >>>> CA Lic. 773985 >>>> >>>> >>>> From: rick at solshineenergy.com [mailto:rick at solshineenergy.com ] >>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2024 12:03 PM >>>> To: william at millersolar.com ; RE-wrenches >>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Input >>>> >>>> William, >>>> >>>> There’s no PV on this system. It’s AC coupled to an SMA SB5.0. >>>> >>>> As a test, we turned off the Grid input, Load output, and turned off the battery breaker. As expected, the high voltage DC eventually bled to 0V. Turning things on in this order: Battery, Grid, then Load resulted in the high voltage appearing once the Grid relay kicked on. Actually, the high voltage ramped up slowly once the Grid relay turned on. >>>> >>>> We’ve been installing these for years and have never seen this. Then again, we’ve never measured that point. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Oct 15, 2024, at 2:32 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>> >>>> Rick: >>>> >>>> If I had to guess I’d say you have a PV wiring fault. The PV positive may be shorted to ground. >>>> This would make the inverter chassis negative in relation to ground. >>>> >>>> The logic I use is to ask what is the likely source of DC at 195 volts? It is most likely the PV circuits, wouldn’t you say? >>>> >>>> If the DC Fault is not eternal then it must be internal to the inverter. This could be a dangerous situation. I would proceed with caution. >>>> >>>> Try completely isolating the PV from the inverter as a start. >>>> >>>> Good luck. >>>> >>>> William Miller >>>> >>>> Miller Solar >>>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>>> 805-438-5600 >>>> www.millersolar.com >>>> CA Lic. 773985 >>>> >>>> >>>> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of rick--- via RE-wrenches >>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2024 11:09 AM >>>> To: RE-wrenches >>>> Cc: rick at solshineenergy.com >>>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Input >>>> >>>> Back on the Sol-Ark topic again. We have a customer whose 12kW is measuring -195VDC to ground from L1 and L2 with the Gen breaker open. L1 to L2 = 0V. I know the Gen input can be configured as an output, but reading a high DC voltage to ground is concerning. The generator has never been run. System is operating normally. >>>> >>>> Anyone have a Sol-Ark accessible that could verify what they’re reading? >>>> >>>> Thanks in advance. >>>> >>>> Rick Brown >>>> Solshine Energy >>>> Solar Electric Contracting Services >>>> www.solshineenergy.com >>>> Roanoke, VA >>>> Office: 540.235.3095 >>>> Mobile: 540.808.9502 >>>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE -- This email is intended only for the person(s) named in >>>> >>>> the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is >>>> >>>> confidential, privileged and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have >>>> >>>> received this message in error, please notify the sender of the error and delete the >>>> >>>> message. Thank you. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> rick brown >>>> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >>>> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >>>> www.SolShineEnergy.com >>>> Roanoke, VA >>>> Office: 540.235.3095 >>>> Mobile: 540.808.9502 >>>> >>>> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >>>> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >>>> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >>>> >>>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE -- This email is intended only for the person(s) named in >>>> the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is >>>> confidential, privileged and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have >>>> received this message in error, please notify the sender of the error and delete the >>>> message. Thank you.” >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> rick brown >>> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >>> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >>> www.SolShineEnergy.com >>> Roanoke, VA >>> Office: 540.235.3095 >>> Mobile: 540.808.9502 >>> >>> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >>> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >>> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >>> >>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE -- This email is intended only for the person(s) named in >>> the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is >>> confidential, privileged and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have >>> received this message in error, please notify the sender of the error and delete the >>> message. Thank you.” >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergy.com Roanoke, VA Office: 540.235.3095 Mobile: 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE -- This email is intended only for the person(s) named in the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is confidential, privileged and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender of the error and delete the message. Thank you.” -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Oct 28 09:49:58 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2024 07:49:58 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Input In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3E5CAD65-3BF4-4B9C-9FF9-1CB7D80E5452@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rick at solshineenergy.com Mon Oct 28 12:09:36 2024 From: rick at solshineenergy.com (rick at solshineenergy.com) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2024 12:09:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Input In-Reply-To: <3E5CAD65-3BF4-4B9C-9FF9-1CB7D80E5452@gmail.com> References: <3E5CAD65-3BF4-4B9C-9FF9-1CB7D80E5452@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, that’s my expectation. The output is at such a high impedance that as soon as you put any load on it, it would drop to 0. > On Oct 28, 2024, at 9:49 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > It would be interesting to see if there is power there. Like put a low wattage 120v incandescent light bulb on it. > > If it was static wouldn’t the meter drain the volts? > > Jay > >> On Oct 28, 2024, at 7:31 AM, rick--- via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> An update on this “issue”. Sol-Ark Tech Support said that the high voltage DC is normal and not a concern. I believe they said it was a “static” voltage. They didn’t really provide an answer as to why it’s present. But I stick to my hypothesis that the source is the H-Bridge drive circuitry. >> >> William, to your point, I’m not thrilled that there’s a DC voltage on the AC output. But given that these units have been in operation for years without issue related to this input/output I’m not too worried. >> >> Thanks everyone! >> >>> On Oct 16, 2024, at 11:09 PM, William Miller wrote: >>> >>> Rick: >>> >>> You’re OK leaving this random high voltage DC on the AC output? >>> >>> William Miller >>> Miller Solar.com >>> 805-438-5600 >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 16, 2024 at 6:09 PM rick at solshineenergy.com > wrote: >>>> Confirmed! Reading the same points on a different inverter yielded the same results. At a different site, I measured -188.8VDC to ground on both L1 and L2. >>>> >>>> My suspicion is that there’s leakage current via the H-bridge output. Just a thought. >>>> >>>> Case closed, thanks. >>>> >>>> Rick Brown >>>> Solshine Energy >>>> Solar Electric Contracting Services >>>> www.solshineenergy.com >>>> Roanoke, VA >>>> Office: 540.235.3095 >>>> Mobile: 540.808.9502 >>>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE -- This email is intended only for the person(s) named in >>>> >>>> the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is >>>> >>>> confidential, privileged and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have >>>> >>>> received this message in error, please notify the sender of the error and delete the >>>> >>>> message. Thank you. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Oct 16, 2024, at 3:49 PM, rick at solshineenergy.com wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Sorry I wasn’t clear. There’s no PV tied directly to the Sol-Ark however the Sunny Boy has 5.52 kW of PV. Again the SB is AC coupled to the Sol-Ark via its Load input/output. >>>>> >>>>> I can assure you that the DC is not coming from an external source. There are no faults at either inverter (measured or indicated by the inverter(s)). Both systems are operating normally. >>>>> >>>>> I’ll be looking at another site to verify whether these readings are consistent or an anomaly. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Rick >>>>> >>>>>> On Oct 15, 2024, at 3:49 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Rick: >>>>>> >>>>>> Two questions: >>>>>> >>>>>> 1. If you don’t have PV on this system, what are those glassy, flat things on the roof wired to the DC inputs of your Sunny Boy? >>>>>> >>>>>> 2. Think to yourself: What component(s) on this project could possibly produce high voltage DC? >>>>>> >>>>>> I think the answer to both questions is… PV panels. I highly suspect you have a PV ground fault. Proceed with caution. >>>>>> >>>>>> On the Sunny Boy I would check the DC voltage between L1 and ground, between L2 and ground and between neutral and ground. Do this in the operational configuration that is producing the DC voltage on the Gen inputs. >>>>>> >>>>>> While you are at it, check DC voltages between the Sunny Boy DC inputs to ground and between the Sunny Boy Chassis and ground. >>>>>> >>>>>> Check your GEC, GEC bonding conductor and all of the system EGCs. >>>>>> >>>>>> I would also check the GFDI fuse on the Sunny Boy. >>>>>> >>>>>> William Miller >>>>>> >>>>>> Miller Solar >>>>>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>>>>> 805-438-5600 >>>>>> www.millersolar.com >>>>>> CA Lic. 773985 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> From: rick at solshineenergy.com [mailto:rick at solshineenergy.com ] >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2024 12:03 PM >>>>>> To: william at millersolar.com ; RE-wrenches >>>>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Input >>>>>> >>>>>> William, >>>>>> >>>>>> There’s no PV on this system. It’s AC coupled to an SMA SB5.0. >>>>>> >>>>>> As a test, we turned off the Grid input, Load output, and turned off the battery breaker. As expected, the high voltage DC eventually bled to 0V. Turning things on in this order: Battery, Grid, then Load resulted in the high voltage appearing once the Grid relay kicked on. Actually, the high voltage ramped up slowly once the Grid relay turned on. >>>>>> >>>>>> We’ve been installing these for years and have never seen this. Then again, we’ve never measured that point. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Oct 15, 2024, at 2:32 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Rick: >>>>>> >>>>>> If I had to guess I’d say you have a PV wiring fault. The PV positive may be shorted to ground. >>>>>> This would make the inverter chassis negative in relation to ground. >>>>>> >>>>>> The logic I use is to ask what is the likely source of DC at 195 volts? It is most likely the PV circuits, wouldn’t you say? >>>>>> >>>>>> If the DC Fault is not eternal then it must be internal to the inverter. This could be a dangerous situation. I would proceed with caution. >>>>>> >>>>>> Try completely isolating the PV from the inverter as a start. >>>>>> >>>>>> Good luck. >>>>>> >>>>>> William Miller >>>>>> >>>>>> Miller Solar >>>>>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>>>>> 805-438-5600 >>>>>> www.millersolar.com >>>>>> CA Lic. 773985 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of rick--- via RE-wrenches >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2024 11:09 AM >>>>>> To: RE-wrenches >>>>>> Cc: rick at solshineenergy.com >>>>>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Input >>>>>> >>>>>> Back on the Sol-Ark topic again. We have a customer whose 12kW is measuring -195VDC to ground from L1 and L2 with the Gen breaker open. L1 to L2 = 0V. I know the Gen input can be configured as an output, but reading a high DC voltage to ground is concerning. The generator has never been run. System is operating normally. >>>>>> >>>>>> Anyone have a Sol-Ark accessible that could verify what they’re reading? >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks in advance. >>>>>> >>>>>> Rick Brown >>>>>> Solshine Energy >>>>>> Solar Electric Contracting Services >>>>>> www.solshineenergy.com >>>>>> Roanoke, VA >>>>>> Office: 540.235.3095 >>>>>> Mobile: 540.808.9502 >>>>>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE -- This email is intended only for the person(s) named in >>>>>> >>>>>> the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is >>>>>> >>>>>> confidential, privileged and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have >>>>>> >>>>>> received this message in error, please notify the sender of the error and delete the >>>>>> >>>>>> message. Thank you. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> rick brown >>>>>> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >>>>>> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >>>>>> www.SolShineEnergy.com >>>>>> Roanoke, VA >>>>>> Office: 540.235.3095 >>>>>> Mobile: 540.808.9502 >>>>>> >>>>>> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >>>>>> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >>>>>> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >>>>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >>>>>> >>>>>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE -- This email is intended only for the person(s) named in >>>>>> the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is >>>>>> confidential, privileged and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have >>>>>> received this message in error, please notify the sender of the error and delete the >>>>>> message. Thank you.” >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> rick brown >>>>> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >>>>> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >>>>> www.SolShineEnergy.com >>>>> Roanoke, VA >>>>> Office: 540.235.3095 >>>>> Mobile: 540.808.9502 >>>>> >>>>> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >>>>> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >>>>> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >>>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >>>>> >>>>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE -- This email is intended only for the person(s) named in >>>>> the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is >>>>> confidential, privileged and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have >>>>> received this message in error, please notify the sender of the error and delete the >>>>> message. Thank you.” >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >> >> rick brown >> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >> www.SolShineEnergy.com >> Roanoke, VA >> Office: 540.235.3095 >> Mobile: 540.808.9502 >> >> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >> >> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE -- This email is intended only for the person(s) named in >> the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is >> confidential, privileged and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have >> received this message in error, please notify the sender of the error and delete the >> message. Thank you.” >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergy.com Roanoke, VA Office: 540.235.3095 Mobile: 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE -- This email is intended only for the person(s) named in the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is confidential, privileged and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender of the error and delete the message. Thank you.” -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Mon Oct 28 12:44:22 2024 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2024 11:44:22 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Input In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My first thought is what meter are you using? Some meter will have high input impedance and give false value On Tue, Oct 15, 2024 at 1:09 PM rick--- via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Back on the Sol-Ark topic again. We have a customer whose 12kW is > measuring -195VDC to ground from L1 and L2 with the Gen breaker open. L1 to > L2 = 0V. I know the Gen input can be configured as an output, but reading a > high DC voltage to ground is concerning. The generator has never been run. > System is operating normally. > > Anyone have a Sol-Ark accessible that could verify what they’re reading? > > Thanks in advance. > > Rick Brown > Solshine Energy > Solar Electric Contracting Services > www.solshineenergy.com > Roanoke, VA > Office: 540.235.3095 > Mobile: 540.808.9502 > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE -- This email is intended only for the person(s) > named in > > the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information > that is > > confidential, privileged and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable > law. If you have > > received this message in error, please notify the sender of the error and > delete the > > message. Thank you. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rick at solshineenergy.com Mon Oct 28 12:54:01 2024 From: rick at solshineenergy.com (rick at solshineenergy.com) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2024 12:54:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Input In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A780CCF-B902-4713-B852-079FB3384C7C@solshineenergy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jon at dixonpowersystems.com Mon Oct 28 15:30:07 2024 From: jon at dixonpowersystems.com (Jon Dixon) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2024 14:30:07 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RE Module snail trails In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <24990c48-df54-4663-a8da-67d1383bd604@dixonpowersystems.com> Thomas, The SMA inverters do have the SMA combiners you mentioned(see attached photo). As I said we have only done a walk through but we did check the string VOC at one of the combiners. With all fuses open string 1 +/- = 411 and the other string were the same. But String 1 + to string 5 - also reads 411. It did not matter what combination you tried they all read 411 Just one more thing that needs to be diagnosed if they decide to move forward. Thanks Jonathan Dixon Dixon Power Systems 3250 N 20th St Ste 1 Lincoln, NE 68521 402-467-3240 jon at dixonpowersystems.com > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 16:54:41 +0000 > From: "Thomas Hall" > To: "jon at dixonpowersystems.com" , > RE-wrenches > Cc: Jon Dixon > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Module snail trails > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > ? > Hello Jon. > Another thought??Was the site using the SMA combiner boxes with the 3 > SMA Tripower 15000TL-US -10? > We have had ground faults occur there internally. If it has a green > test button inside the combiner box unit (polarity tester) ?. replace > the combiner with a different manufactures equipment. > I believe the model is called SMA 1000-US-11 String Combiner w/ > Disconnect. > > Thomas Hall > Solar Specialty Group INC C-33998 > dba Specialty Group Electric > 808-854-9539 > thomashall at solarspecialtygroup.com > www.solarspecialtygroup.com > Certified Thermographer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ? 031310-92 > > > > > From: RE-wrenches on > behalf of Jon Dixon via RE-wrenches > Date: Wednesday, October 23, 2024 at 12:04?PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Cc: Jon Dixon > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Module snail trails > Thanks Bryan, > > I do not know the PV connector types for the modules or extension cables > we have not started working on it. I need to put a plan together for the > customer first. > Good to know about the Amphenol H4 issues. > > Thank You > > Jonathan Dixon > Dixon Power Systems > 3250 N 20th St Ste 1 > Lincoln, NE 68521 > 402-467-3240 > jon at dixonpowersystems.com > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 16:44:51 +0000 >> From: Bryan Norkunas >> To: "re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org" >> , "jon at dixonpowersystems.com" >> >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Module snail trails >> Message-ID: >> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" >> >> Jon, >> >> Do you recall which PV connectors were on the modules and what they >> used for extension cables? >> >> Around that time, Amphenol H4 connectors had issues due to the >> plastic housings failing and allowing water into the connections. >> >> >> >> Bryan Norkunas >> >> PV-Cables Inc. >> >> 989 Milton Ave Ste 1D >> >> Ferndale CA 95536 >> >> (707) 923-3000 office >> >> www.pv-cables.com >> >> [cid:aa320544-f89d-44fc-a3e9-bb468c2d9953] >> >> >> >> [cid:867e1cba-ab13-4a98-9ecf-200189c32b6d] Please print only if >> necessary. >> >> >> >> NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of >> the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or >> privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or >> distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, >> please contact the sender by replying to this email, and destroy all >> copies of the original message. >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: RE-wrenches on >> behalf of Jon Dixon via RE-wrenches >> Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2024 9:07 AM >> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Cc: Jon Dixon >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module snail trails >> >> Hello All, >> >> I have a local utility with a 50Kw array installed in 2015 consisting >> of 200 ReneSola 250w modules and 3 SMA Tripower 15000TL-US -10. They >> are having Arc fault code on two of the inverters. This has been >> going on for a few years now. It happens a couple times a year >> generally after a large rain. They just reset the code and it comes >> back to life. >> >> They gave me a walk through and we noticed that a number of modules >> have snail trails. I have attached a closeup picture I took and IR >> views of affected module and non affected. It was a 90 deg day when >> the utility took the IR pictures. >> >> Causes for snail trails that I found: >> >> * The difference in chemical properties of EVA foils and the silver >> contacts >> * The degradation extent of the EVA material >> * Water vapor permeability of the solar panel?s backsheet material >> >> I did find that if you have snail trails you will have micro >> fractures. I did see some info that micro fractures could cause arc >> faults. >> >> Finally my question is can snail trails cause arc faults also? >> >> >> Thanks Jon >> >> -- >> Jonathan Dixon >> Dixon Power Systems >> 3250 N 20th St Ste 1 >> Lincoln, NE 68521 >> 402-467-3240 >> jon at dixonpowersystems.com >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >> Name: Outlook-znsett2t.png >> Type: image/png >> Size: 78625 bytes >> Desc: Outlook-znsett2t.png >> URL: >> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >> Name: Outlook-jqwvacbt.png >> Type: image/png >> Size: 2978 bytes >> Desc: Outlook-jqwvacbt.png >> URL: >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 17:09:53 +0000 >> From: Bryan Norkunas >> To: "re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org" >> , "jon at dixonpowersystems.com" >> >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Module snail trails >> Message-ID: >> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" >> >> Looking at the pictures again, I wonder if there might be a pinhole >> in the back lamination that is allowing water into the module. >> >> >> >> >> Bryan Norkunas >> >> PV-Cables Inc. >> >> 989 Milton Ave Ste 1D >> >> Ferndale CA 95536 >> >> (707) 923-3000 office >> >> www.pv-cables.com >> >> [cid:8b840384-c5f3-42a6-b643-c70a0c8359f7] >> >> >> >> [cid:359044c7-87e0-453e-8b12-d03863f07a98] Please print only if >> necessary. >> >> >> >> NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of >> the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or >> privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or >> distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, >> please contact the sender by replying to this email, and destroy all >> copies of the original message. >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: RE-wrenches on >> behalf of Jon Dixon via RE-wrenches >> Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2024 9:07 AM >> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Cc: Jon Dixon >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module snail trails >> >> Hello All, >> >> I have a local utility with a 50Kw array installed in 2015 consisting >> of 200 ReneSola 250w modules and 3 SMA Tripower 15000TL-US -10. They >> are having Arc fault code on two of the inverters. This has been >> going on for a few years now. It happens a couple times a year >> generally after a large rain. They just reset the code and it comes >> back to life. >> >> They gave me a walk through and we noticed that a number of modules >> have snail trails. I have attached a closeup picture I took and IR >> views of affected module and non affected. It was a 90 deg day when >> the utility took the IR pictures. >> >> Causes for snail trails that I found: >> >> * The difference in chemical properties of EVA foils and the silver >> contacts >> * The degradation extent of the EVA material >> * Water vapor permeability of the solar panel?s backsheet material >> >> I did find that if you have snail trails you will have micro >> fractures. I did see some info that micro fractures could cause arc >> faults. >> >> Finally my question is can snail trails cause arc faults also? >> >> >> Thanks Jon >> >> -- >> Jonathan Dixon >> Dixon Power Systems >> 3250 N 20th St Ste 1 >> Lincoln, NE 68521 >> 402-467-3240 >> jon at dixonpowersystems.com >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >> Name: Outlook-wabazobn.png >> Type: image/png >> Size: 78625 bytes >> Desc: Outlook-wabazobn.png >> URL: >> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >> Name: Outlook-qs0datbf.png >> Type: image/png >> Size: 2978 bytes >> Desc: Outlook-qs0datbf.png >> URL: >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Subject: Digest Footer >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 17, Issue 319 >> ******************************************** >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 18:10:29 +0000 > From: Jeremy Rodriguez > To: "william at millersolar.com" , RE-wrenches > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] New Outback FXR Series as GTGBB on existing > Off Grid Home > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > We Installed the automatic transfer switch so the inverter AC input > could be either grid or generator. > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > > On Oct 24, 2024, at 10:41?AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > ? > Jeremy: > > Question: Did you install the ATS as a work-around to the problem > described? > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > From: RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > On Behalf Of Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches > Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2024 7:47 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Jeremy Rodriguez > Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Outback FXR Series as GTGBB on existing Off > Grid Home > > Wrenches, > We have a client that has brought utility power in and we now have the > system hooked up to the utility. > In setting the system up, I've experienced that the inverter will sell > and function fine with all the settings set up as Grid Tied mode, but > it does not play nice when the grid is gone , and the Generator is > brought in as the AC source. > We have installed an external transfer switch to switch the inverters' > AC input, from either the utility or the existing backup generator ( > if the grid fails), automatically. > > The manual states that the inverter's two input selections can be > programmed for seperate input modes, via the Input Type menu. Ive not > been able to get this accomplished. > > When simulating a grid outage, thus changing the AC input to the > inverter being from the Generator, the inverter will not synch to the > AC power to charge the batteries. > The only way that I can get the inverter to synch, is to switch the > input mode to GEN from GRID. > This is not ideal since the client would need to be present to make > the button push, even though the generator will be started > automatically if the grid were to go down (hopefully) , just as it did > before. > > With no way to contact Outback , can someone advise how to properly > program the inverter/ MATE3S for this project? > Equipment onsite: > Single VFXR3648 inverter > Two FM60 CCs > Hub4 > MATE3S > ATS with Dual Relays 50A > L.A. Battery bank > > Here's how we would like it to work: > Utility power ON: > Sell excess power once the batteries have gone through the Absorb > cycle. Batteries remain full in case of a utility failure. > Utility Outage: > ATS now feeds Inv AC input via Generator if needed. > Inverter runs the home as it did , off grid. > If the battery voltage drops and the AGS is engaged, the inverter will > use that input to charge the batteries as usual. If the grid comes > back on and the gen is running, the generator can still run, with no > connection to the inverter. With the grid now charging the battery > bank, and the AGS will enventually shut off the Gen. Based on voltage. > Contact me off list if necessary > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > All Solar Inc. > Penrose, CO > 719-276-4954 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2024 18:25:25 +0000 > From: "chriswatsww at outlook.com" > To: RE-wrenches , > "william at millersolar.com" > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] New Outback FXR Series as GTGBB on existing > Off Grid Home > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hi Jeremy, > > We have a client with 4 of the VFXR3648's in the same situation, GTBB > and you've described our solution perfectly although we installed a > manual transfer switch instead of the ATS, so if someone has figured > out a better solution we'd like to know what it is, thanks. > > > > Chris Worcester > chriswatsww at outlook.com > 530-448-9692 > Sent from my Galaxy > > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches > Date: 10/24/24 11:11 AM (GMT-08:00) > To: william at millersolar.com, RE-wrenches > > Cc: Jeremy Rodriguez > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] New Outback FXR Series as GTGBB on existing > Off Grid Home > > We Installed the automatic transfer switch so the inverter AC input > could be either grid or generator. > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > > On Oct 24, 2024, at 10:41?AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > ? > Jeremy: > > Question: Did you install the ATS as a work-around to the problem > described? > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > From: RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > On Behalf Of Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches > Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2024 7:47 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Jeremy Rodriguez > Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Outback FXR Series as GTGBB on existing Off > Grid Home > > Wrenches, > We have a client that has brought utility power in and we now have the > system hooked up to the utility. > In setting the system up, I've experienced that the inverter will sell > and function fine with all the settings set up as Grid Tied mode, but > it does not play nice when the grid is gone , and the Generator is > brought in as the AC source. > We have installed an external transfer switch to switch the inverters' > AC input, from either the utility or the existing backup generator ( > if the grid fails), automatically. > > The manual states that the inverter's two input selections can be > programmed for seperate input modes, via the Input Type menu. Ive not > been able to get this accomplished. > > When simulating a grid outage, thus changing the AC input to the > inverter being from the Generator, the inverter will not synch to the > AC power to charge the batteries. > The only way that I can get the inverter to synch, is to switch the > input mode to GEN from GRID. > This is not ideal since the client would need to be present to make > the button push, even though the generator will be started > automatically if the grid were to go down (hopefully) , just as it did > before. > > With no way to contact Outback , can someone advise how to properly > program the inverter/ MATE3S for this project? > Equipment onsite: > Single VFXR3648 inverter > Two FM60 CCs > Hub4 > MATE3S > ATS with Dual Relays 50A > L.A. Battery bank > > Here's how we would like it to work: > Utility power ON: > Sell excess power once the batteries have gone through the Absorb > cycle. Batteries remain full in case of a utility failure. > Utility Outage: > ATS now feeds Inv AC input via Generator if needed. > Inverter runs the home as it did , off grid. > If the battery voltage drops and the AGS is engaged, the inverter will > use that input to charge the batteries as usual. If the grid comes > back on and the gen is running, the generator can still run, with no > connection to the inverter. With the grid now charging the battery > bank, and the AGS will enventually shut off the Gen. Based on voltage. > Contact me off list if necessary > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > All Solar Inc. > Penrose, CO > 719-276-4954 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > ------------------------------ > > End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 17, Issue 321 > ******************************************** > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SMA 1000.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 982729 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jon at dixonpowersystems.com Mon Oct 28 15:39:56 2024 From: jon at dixonpowersystems.com (Jon Dixon) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2024 14:39:56 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module snail trails In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jay, I thought it was broken when I first saw it also but its not. I agree that it is snail trails which are cause from chemical reaction of the different components with moisture. Generally low grade module. I don't know how many modules have snail trails. The array is 10 rows by 20 columns but in the fifteen I could see four were affected. Thanks Jon Jonathan Dixon Dixon Power Systems 3250 N 20th St Ste 1 Lincoln, NE 68521 402-467-3240 jon at dixonpowersystems.com On 10/24/2024 5:40 PM, Jay wrote: > That one cell you have a picture of sure looks suspicious to me. > Especially given the good IR picture. > It looks it’s physically broken, right about where a hard hat would > rest while moving it. > That level of hot spot can’t be good. > > There are two kinds of things that can look sorta the same. Snail > trails I thought were from a kind of contamination which leaves a > trail of micro bubbles. It’s from the assembly process and I think > static factors into it. The close up photo sure looks like this to me. > > The other are micro fractures from all sorts of reasons. Actual damage > to the cell which is usually visible. > > Are there just a few suspicious panels or lots? > > Jay > > > > > > > > >> On Oct 24, 2024, at 10:55 AM, Thomas Hall via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >>  >> >>  >> >> Hello Jon. >> >> Another thought……Was the site using  the SMA combiner boxes with the >> 3 SMA Tripower 15000TL-US -10? >> >> We have had ground faults occur there internally. If it has a green >> test button inside the combiner box unit (polarity tester) …. replace >> the combiner with a different manufactures equipment. >> >> I believe the model is called SMA 1000-US-11 String Combiner w/ >> Disconnect. >> >> *Thomas Hall * >> >> Solar Specialty Group INC C-33998 >> >> dba Specialty Group Electric >> >> *808-854-9539 * >> >> thomashall at solarspecialtygroup.com >> >> >> www.solarspecialtygroup.com >> >> Certified Thermographer >> >> *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional **® **031310-92* >> >> *From: *RE-wrenches on >> behalf of Jon Dixon via RE-wrenches >> *Date: *Wednesday, October 23, 2024 at 12:04 PM >> *To: *re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> *Cc: *Jon Dixon >> *Subject: *Re: [RE-wrenches] Module snail trails >> >> Thanks Bryan, >> >> I do not know the PV connector types for the modules or extension cables >> we have not started working on it. I need to put a plan together for the >> customer first. >> Good to know about the Amphenol H4 issues. >> >> Thank You >> >> Jonathan Dixon >> Dixon Power Systems >> 3250 N 20th St  Ste 1 >> Lincoln, NE 68521 >> 402-467-3240 >> jon at dixonpowersystems.com >> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > Message: 1 >> > Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 16:44:51 +0000 >> > From: Bryan Norkunas >> > To: "re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org" >> > , "jon at dixonpowersystems.com" >> > >> > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Module snail trails >> > Message-ID: >> > >> >> > >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" >> > >> > Jon, >> > >> > Do you recall which PV connectors were on the modules and what they >> used for extension cables? >> > >> > Around that time, Amphenol H4 connectors had issues due to the >> plastic housings failing and allowing water into the connections. >> > >> > >> > >> > Bryan Norkunas >> > >> > PV-Cables Inc. >> > >> > 989 Milton Ave Ste 1D >> > >> > Ferndale CA 95536 >> > >> > (707) 923-3000 office >> > >> > www.pv-cables.com> > >> > >> > [cid:aa320544-f89d-44fc-a3e9-bb468c2d9953] >> > >> > >> > >> > [cid:867e1cba-ab13-4a98-9ecf-200189c32b6d] Please print only if >> necessary. >> > >> > >> > >> > NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use >> of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or >> privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or >> distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, >> please contact the sender by replying to this email, and destroy all >> copies of the original message. >> > >> > >> > >> > ________________________________ >> > From: RE-wrenches on >> behalf of Jon Dixon via RE-wrenches >> > Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2024 9:07 AM >> > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> > Cc: Jon Dixon >> > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module snail trails >> > >> > Hello All, >> > >> > I have a local utility with a 50Kw array installed in 2015 >> consisting of 200 ReneSola 250w modules and 3 SMA Tripower 15000TL-US >> -10. They are having Arc fault code on two of the inverters. This has >> been going on for a few years now. It happens a couple times a year >> generally after a large rain. They just reset the code and it comes >> back to life. >> > >> > They gave me a walk through and we noticed that a number of modules >> have snail trails. I have attached a closeup picture I took and IR >> views of affected module and non affected. It was a 90 deg day when >> the utility took the IR pictures. >> > >> > Causes for snail trails that I found: >> > >> >    *   The difference in chemical properties of EVA foils and the >> silver contacts >> >    *   The degradation extent of the EVA material >> >    *   Water vapor permeability of the solar panel?s backsheet material >> > >> > I did find that if you have snail trails you will have micro >> fractures. I did see some info that micro fractures could cause arc >> faults. >> > >> > Finally my question is can snail trails cause arc faults also? >> > >> > >> > Thanks Jon >> > >> > -- >> > Jonathan Dixon >> > Dixon Power Systems >> > 3250 N 20th St  Ste 1 >> > Lincoln, NE 68521 >> > 402-467-3240 >> > jon at dixonpowersystems.com >> > -------------- next part -------------- >> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> > URL: >> > > >> > -------------- next part -------------- >> > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >> > Name: Outlook-znsett2t.png >> > Type: image/png >> > Size: 78625 bytes >> > Desc: Outlook-znsett2t.png >> > URL: >> > > >> > -------------- next part -------------- >> > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >> > Name: Outlook-jqwvacbt.png >> > Type: image/png >> > Size: 2978 bytes >> > Desc: Outlook-jqwvacbt.png >> > URL: >> > > >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> > >> > Message: 2 >> > Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2024 17:09:53 +0000 >> > From: Bryan Norkunas >> > To: "re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org" >> > , "jon at dixonpowersystems.com" >> > >> > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Module snail trails >> > Message-ID: >> > >> >> > >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" >> > >> > Looking at the pictures again, I wonder if there might be a pinhole >> in the back lamination that is allowing water into the module. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Bryan Norkunas >> > >> > PV-Cables Inc. >> > >> > 989 Milton Ave Ste 1D >> > >> > Ferndale CA 95536 >> > >> > (707) 923-3000 office >> > >> > www.pv-cables.com> > >> > >> > [cid:8b840384-c5f3-42a6-b643-c70a0c8359f7] >> > >> > >> > >> > [cid:359044c7-87e0-453e-8b12-d03863f07a98] Please print only if >> necessary. >> > >> > >> > >> > NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use >> of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or >> privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or >> distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, >> please contact the sender by replying to this email, and destroy all >> copies of the original message. >> > >> > >> > >> > ________________________________ >> > From: RE-wrenches on >> behalf of Jon Dixon via RE-wrenches >> > Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2024 9:07 AM >> > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> > Cc: Jon Dixon >> > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module snail trails >> > >> > Hello All, >> > >> > I have a local utility with a 50Kw array installed in 2015 >> consisting of 200 ReneSola 250w modules and 3 SMA Tripower 15000TL-US >> -10. They are having Arc fault code on two of the inverters. This has >> been going on for a few years now. It happens a couple times a year >> generally after a large rain. They just reset the code and it comes >> back to life. >> > >> > They gave me a walk through and we noticed that a number of modules >> have snail trails. I have attached a closeup picture I took and IR >> views of affected module and non affected. It was a 90 deg day when >> the utility took the IR pictures. >> > >> > Causes for snail trails that I found: >> > >> >    *   The difference in chemical properties of EVA foils and the >> silver contacts >> >    *   The degradation extent of the EVA material >> >    *   Water vapor permeability of the solar panel?s backsheet material >> > >> > I did find that if you have snail trails you will have micro >> fractures. I did see some info that micro fractures could cause arc >> faults. >> > >> > Finally my question is can snail trails cause arc faults also? >> > >> > >> > Thanks Jon >> > >> > -- >> > Jonathan Dixon >> > Dixon Power Systems >> > 3250 N 20th St  Ste 1 >> > Lincoln, NE 68521 >> > 402-467-3240 >> > jon at dixonpowersystems.com >> > -------------- next part -------------- >> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> > URL: >> > > >> > -------------- next part -------------- >> > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >> > Name: Outlook-wabazobn.png >> > Type: image/png >> > Size: 78625 bytes >> > Desc: Outlook-wabazobn.png >> > URL: >> > > >> > -------------- next part -------------- >> > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >> > Name: Outlook-qs0datbf.png >> > Type: image/png >> > Size: 2978 bytes >> > Desc: Outlook-qs0datbf.png >> > URL: >> > > >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> > >> > Subject: Digest Footer >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> > >> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >> try the other: >> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> > >> > End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 17, Issue 319 >> > ******************************************** >> > >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Oct 28 16:29:51 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2024 16:29:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Whole Home UPS, Generator Charging Message-ID: We are seeing an uptick in consumers looking for whole home battery backup systems without solar panels for shorter grid outages. They either want battery only or battery with generator charging capability, either portable or fixed. I was planning on offering primarily Sol-Ark 15k for this scenario. But I have had mixed results in getting any appreciable battery charging from generators. I had a 48kW recently barely able to provide 3kW within the Sol-Ark's parameters, and a 22kW that can charge at 18kW without breaking a sweat. Portable generators are all over the map, too. I've used a Honda 2200 inverter generator to charge at 1,500W, a piece of junk 8kW cage rattler that was happy charging at 8kW, and a 5kW that didn't like giving up even 500W. Is there any rhyme or reason to what generators are best or why this happens? Sometimes I'm faced with clients that have existing generators and I have to tell them that I can't promise how well it will work. That's not a great sales pitch. Yes, I have adjusted the volt/freq windows and set the Sol-Ark to General Standard. I have tried peak shaving with no real positive results for the generators that performed poorly. Also, if Sol-Ark isn't the best answer, I'm open to alternatives. I also considered installing these systems with separate 48V chargers connected to the generator output, but I'm not sure how much better that will be and if there are adjustable chargers I can use on a range of generator outputs. Any advice would be appreciated, and I would also like to know if others are seeing this trend for whole home UPS. It could just be hurricane related here, of course. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Mon Oct 28 16:54:03 2024 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2024 10:54:03 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Whole Home UPS, Generator Charging In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason, We have had no demand for systems with no PV here in Hawaii but we are just a small outfit. As far as generators and Sol-Arks. We have always managed to get generators charging with Sol-Arks but it seems to be a challenge. I'll state the 2 obvious things which have tripped us up in the past which I am sure you have already tried. Battery Setup->Charge-> Amps (Our guys alway forget this is DC Amps) Always program the voltage setpoint in case closed-loop goes down In off-grid installs we always install on the grid-input with CTs. It seems to work better for us regardless of the size of the generator. Aloha, Lou Russo Owner lou at spreesolarsystems.com Office - 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 On Mon, Oct 28, 2024 at 10:30 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We are seeing an uptick in consumers looking for whole home battery backup > systems without solar panels for shorter grid outages. They either want > battery only or battery with generator charging capability, either portable > or fixed. > > I was planning on offering primarily Sol-Ark 15k for this scenario. But I > have had mixed results in getting any appreciable battery charging from > generators. I had a 48kW recently barely able to provide 3kW within the > Sol-Ark's parameters, and a 22kW that can charge at 18kW without breaking a > sweat. Portable generators are all over the map, too. I've used a Honda > 2200 inverter generator to charge at 1,500W, a piece of junk 8kW cage > rattler that was happy charging at 8kW, and a 5kW that didn't like giving > up even 500W. > > Is there any rhyme or reason to what generators are best or why this > happens? Sometimes I'm faced with clients that have existing generators and > I have to tell them that I can't promise how well it will work. That's not > a great sales pitch. > > Yes, I have adjusted the volt/freq windows and set the Sol-Ark to General > Standard. I have tried peak shaving with no real positive results for the > generators that performed poorly. > > Also, if Sol-Ark isn't the best answer, I'm open to alternatives. I also > considered installing these systems with separate 48V chargers connected to > the generator output, but I'm not sure how much better that will be and if > there are adjustable chargers I can use on a range of generator outputs. > > Any advice would be appreciated, and I would also like to know if others > are seeing this trend for whole home UPS. It could just be hurricane > related here, of course. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Oct 31 07:53:20 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2024 07:53:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Site Transfers to New Contractor Message-ID: I don't understand how SolarEdge expects contractors to support their products effectively when it takes so long for a site transfer to go through. I have picked up so many service clients with SolarEdge issues due to companies dropping like flies in Florida. If you get on site and can't have the monitoring access transferred instantly, you are flying blind in many cases. Has anyone found a workaround to their ridiculous web form and manual transfer process that involves a human on the other end? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu Oct 31 09:56:45 2024 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2024 09:56:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] APS rapid shutdown Message-ID: Hi All, I am about to use the AP systems rapid shutdown units for the first time (pairing with SMA inverters). I was reading through the manual and came across a couple things that I am wondering if others have noticed issues with: 1. The manual states that you need to keep the PV conductors from each inverter (there are two in this system) separate, or else there may be crosstalk. So this would imply that you need to have two separate DC conduits from the roof to the inverters, rather than one. Has anyone noticed if this is truly a concern? 2. The manual also states that there needs to be at least 20cm (or ~8") from the RSD-S-PLC to another piece of equipment (other than the module it is mounted on). I am attaching a diagram from the manual, but it sounds like if you have three rows of modules, the RSD's need to be installed on the top of the top row, the bottom of the bottom row, and you need an 8" gap between the rows for the middle row. The diagram in the manual makes this more clear than my words can. But has anyone not installed this large gap and had issues, or did it still work just fine? 3. Lastly, I don't see a mention in the manual, but is there a string length minimum? For some reason I thought with some of the older Tigo RSD units you needed at least 5 or 6 in a string, or maybe I am thinking of SolarEdge optimizers. I just want to make sure there is no minimum, since another job coming up will have a string of 3 panels. I appreciate your experience! Cheers, Dave -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: aps rsd.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 176366 bytes Desc: not available URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Thu Oct 31 10:03:25 2024 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2024 07:03:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] APS rapid shutdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3B63D217-F9B1-449F-8DED-EC203EBBD554@solarenergy.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at sesre.com Thu Oct 31 10:29:09 2024 From: matt at sesre.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2024 14:29:09 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] APS rapid shutdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The APsmart units have a history of rapid failure due to crosstalk. You absolutely MUST keep the DC conductors separate. Don’t risk it. They fail by thermal event. Keeping the APsmart away from wires and other objects is a good idea to mitigate thermal event risk. Keep wires inside the module frame and the APsmart under (or vice-versa, though if against the glass a thermal event will cause failure of module). APsmart has lots of unusual installation instructions compared with standard best practices. It is probably best to speak with the manufacturer to clarify and ensure you have their most recent manual. Regards, Matt Matt Partymiller General Manager Solar Energy Solutions, LLC Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis 859-312-7456 (Office) 877-312-7456 (General) matt at sesre.com Check out our amazing new website and social media updates: www.sesre.com [cid:image006.png at 01DB2B7F.B6513D60] [cid:image007.png at 01DB2B7F.B6513D60] [cid:image008.png at 01DB2B7F.B6513D60] [cid:image009.png at 01DB2B7F.B6513D60] [cid:image010.png at 01DB2B7F.B6513D60] From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2024 9:57 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Dave Tedeyan Subject: [RE-wrenches] APS rapid shutdown Caution: This email originated from outside SES. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Hi All, I am about to use the AP systems rapid shutdown units for the first time (pairing with SMA inverters). I was reading through the manual and came across a couple things that I am wondering if others have noticed issues with: 1. The manual states that you need to keep the PV conductors from each inverter (there are two in this system) separate, or else there may be crosstalk. So this would imply that you need to have two separate DC conduits from the roof to the inverters, rather than one. Has anyone noticed if this is truly a concern? 2. The manual also states that there needs to be at least 20cm (or ~8") from the RSD-S-PLC to another piece of equipment (other than the module it is mounted on). I am attaching a diagram from the manual, but it sounds like if you have three rows of modules, the RSD's need to be installed on the top of the top row, the bottom of the bottom row, and you need an 8" gap between the rows for the middle row. The diagram in the manual makes this more clear than my words can. But has anyone not installed this large gap and had issues, or did it still work just fine? 3. Lastly, I don't see a mention in the manual, but is there a string length minimum? For some reason I thought with some of the older Tigo RSD units you needed at least 5 or 6 in a string, or maybe I am thinking of SolarEdge optimizers. I just want to make sure there is no minimum, since another job coming up will have a string of 3 panels. I appreciate your experience! Cheers, Dave -- [Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.png Type: image/png Size: 4219 bytes Desc: image006.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image007.png Type: image/png Size: 3646 bytes Desc: image007.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image008.png Type: image/png Size: 5367 bytes Desc: image008.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image009.png Type: image/png Size: 3137 bytes Desc: image009.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image010.png Type: image/png Size: 3114 bytes Desc: image010.png URL: From matt at sesre.com Thu Oct 31 10:59:39 2024 From: matt at sesre.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2024 14:59:39 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Site Transfers to New Contractor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We’ve had similar issues. Support directs us to the admin transfer weblink. That takes 24 hours to process (generally happens overnight). Our inside service technician now transfers all sites once the service ticket is agreed in advance of rolling a truck. We’d really been doing that anyway since most RMAs are granted remotely – which gets us to one truck roll. It would be nice if their support line could do this in minutes though. Matt Matt Partymiller General Manager Solar Energy Solutions, LLC Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis 859-312-7456 (Office) 877-312-7456 (General) matt at sesre.com Check out our amazing new website and social media updates: www.sesre.com [cid:image006.png at 01DB2B83.F9BACA40] [cid:image007.png at 01DB2B83.F9BACA40] [cid:image008.png at 01DB2B83.F9BACA40] [cid:image009.png at 01DB2B83.F9BACA40] [cid:image010.png at 01DB2B83.F9BACA40] From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2024 7:53 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jason Szumlanski Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Site Transfers to New Contractor Caution: This email originated from outside SES. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. I don't understand how SolarEdge expects contractors to support their products effectively when it takes so long for a site transfer to go through. I have picked up so many service clients with SolarEdge issues due to companies dropping like flies in Florida. If you get on site and can't have the monitoring access transferred instantly, you are flying blind in many cases. Has anyone found a workaround to their ridiculous web form and manual transfer process that involves a human on the other end? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.png Type: image/png Size: 4219 bytes Desc: image006.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image007.png Type: image/png Size: 3646 bytes Desc: image007.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image008.png Type: image/png Size: 5367 bytes Desc: image008.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image009.png Type: image/png Size: 3137 bytes Desc: image009.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image010.png Type: image/png Size: 3114 bytes Desc: image010.png URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Thu Oct 31 11:39:00 2024 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2024 15:39:00 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] APS rapid shutdown In-Reply-To: <3B63D217-F9B1-449F-8DED-EC203EBBD554@solarenergy.org> References: <3B63D217-F9B1-449F-8DED-EC203EBBD554@solarenergy.org> Message-ID: Dave – w.r.t #3, I think this is mostly a requirement from the inverter manufacturer. For SMA, there is a minimum DC voltage required in shutdown (when there is also no AC voltage). This minimum can come from one string, that is, only the longest string needs to be over the minimum, the others can be shorter. For the SBSE -US, Section 7.6 “Rapid Shutdown Equipment) (pg 28-29) of the System Manual contains this minimum (3.6 Vdc) along with other system requirements. So for the APsmart devices, this would be 6 or more devices required on one string, from the 0.6V minimum shutdown voltage APsmart states. System manual link: https://files.sma.de/downloads/Home-Storage-Solution-BackupStart-US-SH-en-10.pdf Please note SMA commercial inverters may have a larger minimum standby voltage requirement, thought very short strings are not as common as in residential. Best regards – Mike Michael Mahon (he/him) Solar Academy Manager | SMA America 3925 Atherton Rd Rocklin, CA 95765 +1 916 918 9412 SMA America website Solar Academy website US English TechTip channel Upcoming SMA America trainings: English [cid:image001.jpg at 01DB2B75.AB5BA6C0] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2024 8:03 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Brian Mehalic Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] APS rapid shutdown Not sure about #2 or #3, but 100% yes on #1, which quite a few people (including the mfg?) “learned the hard way.” Brian On Oct 31, 2024, at 6:57 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > wrote:  Hi All, I am about to use the AP systems rapid shutdown units for the first time (pairing with SMA inverters). I was reading through the manual and came across a couple things that I am wondering if others have noticed issues with: 1. The manual states that you need to keep the PV conductors from each inverter (there are two in this system) separate, or else there may be crosstalk. So this would imply that you need to have two separate DC conduits from the roof to the inverters, rather than one. Has anyone noticed if this is truly a concern? 2. The manual also states that there needs to be at least 20cm (or ~8") from the RSD-S-PLC to another piece of equipment (other than the module it is mounted on). I am attaching a diagram from the manual, but it sounds like if you have three rows of modules, the RSD's need to be installed on the top of the top row, the bottom of the bottom row, and you need an 8" gap between the rows for the middle row. The diagram in the manual makes this more clear than my words can. But has anyone not installed this large gap and had issues, or did it still work just fine? 3. Lastly, I don't see a mention in the manual, but is there a string length minimum? For some reason I thought with some of the older Tigo RSD units you needed at least 5 or 6 in a string, or maybe I am thinking of SolarEdge optimizers. I just want to make sure there is no minimum, since another job coming up will have a string of 3 panels. I appreciate your experience! Cheers, Dave -- [Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 22040 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Oct 31 15:21:14 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2024 15:21:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Site Transfers to New Contractor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We have started to require site transfers before we do anything, but I have noticed some requests go missing, and others take days. Sometimes I get an email that says it was transferred, and sometimes not. I really don't understand why this is a manual process. I'll be honest - I charge a very high premium for SolarEdge service as a result. With Enphase I'm in to the monitoring system with a 5 minute conversation with the owner, or I just direct them to my how-to video to provide me access. And if I'm on site, access can be granted by phone with the owner's consent. It's so much better, especially when I'm running service calls on the fly on the weekend. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Oct 31, 2024 at 11:01 AM Matt Partymiller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We’ve had similar issues. Support directs us to the admin transfer > weblink. That takes 24 hours to process (generally happens overnight). > Our inside service technician now transfers all sites once the service > ticket is agreed in advance of rolling a truck. We’d really been doing > that anyway since most RMAs are granted remotely – which gets us to one > truck roll. > > > > It would be nice if their support line could do this in minutes though. > > > > Matt > > > > > > Matt Partymiller > > General Manager > > Solar Energy Solutions, LLC > > Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | > Indianapolis > > 859-312-7456 (Office) > > 877-312-7456 (General) > matt at sesre.com > > > > Check out our amazing new website and social media updates: www.sesre.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Thursday, October 31, 2024 7:53 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Site Transfers to New Contractor > > > > *Caution:* This email originated from outside SES. Do not click links or > open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is > safe. > > > > I don't understand how SolarEdge expects contractors to support their > products effectively when it takes so long for a site transfer to go > through. I have picked up so many service clients with SolarEdge issues due > to companies dropping like flies in Florida. If you get on site and can't > have the monitoring access transferred instantly, you are flying blind in > many cases. > > > > Has anyone found a workaround to their ridiculous web form and manual > transfer process that involves a human on the other end? > > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.png Type: image/png Size: 4219 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image007.png Type: image/png Size: 3646 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image008.png Type: image/png Size: 5367 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image009.png Type: image/png Size: 3137 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image010.png Type: image/png Size: 3114 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Sun Nov 3 10:59:11 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2024 07:59:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW F69 error Message-ID: <2398972c35c8d80b1bb3c4f5597513a3@mail.gmail.com> Colleagues: I have a client with a single XW inverter system (circa 2008) that suddenly exhibited an F69 error. Coincidentally the client was watering their batteries when this happened. F69 applies to the AC sync system which is not used in a single inverter system. The system has an SCP, an AGS module and several charge controllers along with the one inverter. The SCP is none operational. The F69 is seen on the inverter display. Is there a button press combination on the inverter that will acknowledge and clear the F69 error? I don’t install XW systems anymore and I am not that versed on the equipment. Do any of you know what might be causing this problem? Thanks in advance. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Mon Nov 4 17:49:40 2024 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2024 17:49:40 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flat roof systems Message-ID: Hi Folks, I have a potential small commercial job on a flat roof. It has been several years since I've done a flat roof system, and would love to know what people are using and liking these days for racking. TIA, Howie Michaelson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Mon Nov 4 18:12:22 2024 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2024 18:12:22 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flat roof systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000d01db2f0f$01d801f0$058805d0$@mindspring.com> Howie Look at DynoRaxx. Scott Lewandowsky can help you out. Peter Giroux American Solar From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, November 4, 2024 5:50 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Howie Michaelson Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flat roof systems Hi Folks, I have a potential small commercial job on a flat roof. It has been several years since I've done a flat roof system, and would love to know what people are using and liking these days for racking. TIA, Howie Michaelson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Tue Nov 5 09:47:21 2024 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jarvis) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2024 08:47:21 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius Symo 10.0-3 208V 3 phase WYE without neutral Message-ID: Hi Group, We have an install with four Fronius Symo 10.0-3 inverters connected to a 208V WYE building hundreds of feet away. While the building has a neutral, I would like to avoid sending the neutral out to the inverters as it is a waste of materials. More wire, bigger conduit, neutral kits in disconnects, etc. The Symo manual indicates that there is a wye grid configuration with three phase and a neutral. And there is a delta configuration with three phase only. Both appear as though they can be set to 208V [image: image.png] I can't see any reason why I can't program the inverters at Delta and not have a neutral. Am I missing anything? I tried inquiring with Fronius, but it's a process and the conduit has to go into the ground today. Thanks wrenches! -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 112905 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Tue Nov 5 10:24:22 2024 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2024 15:24:22 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius Symo 10.0-3 208V 3 phase WYE without neutral In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi James, The utility may only allow one configuration. Best, Lloyd Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of James Jarvis via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2024 9:47:21 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: James Jarvis Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius Symo 10.0-3 208V 3 phase WYE without neutral Hi Group, We have an install with four Fronius Symo 10.0-3 inverters connected to a 208V WYE building hundreds of feet away. While the building has a neutral, I would like to avoid sending the neutral out to the inverters as it is a waste of materials. More wire, bigger conduit, neutral kits in disconnects, etc. The Symo manual indicates that there is a wye grid configuration with three phase and a neutral. And there is a delta configuration with three phase only. Both appear as though they can be set to 208V [image.png] I can't see any reason why I can't program the inverters at Delta and not have a neutral. Am I missing anything? I tried inquiring with Fronius, but it's a process and the conduit has to go into the ground today. Thanks wrenches! -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 112905 bytes Desc: image.png URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Tue Nov 5 10:27:34 2024 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2024 07:27:34 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius Symo 10.0-3 208V 3 phase WYE without neutral In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In the immediate term I’d reckon the best option is to put in conduit that can also hold the neutral, unless you get a reply from Fronius. I’d also be pretty tempted to follow the clear instructions in their manual as well, but definitely curious to see what you hear back from the mfg. If they say you can omit the neutral I’d get it in writing, but I have had an inspector say a letter to that effect (from a different manufacturer, but regarding the same topic) did not override the instructions that were part of the product listing. And the utility may also have an opinion on the matter as well! If you do have to run the neutral perhaps you can get supporting evidence that it is only for voltage sensing and can thus be sized smaller than the phase conductors (no smaller than the EGC) as that is clearly allowed in the NEC®. Brian > On Nov 5, 2024, at 6:47 AM, James Jarvis via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Hi Group, > > We have an install with four Fronius Symo 10.0-3 inverters connected to a 208V WYE building hundreds of feet away. While the building has a neutral, I would like to avoid sending the neutral out to the inverters as it is a waste of materials. More wire, bigger conduit, neutral kits in disconnects, etc. > > The Symo manual indicates that there is a wye grid configuration with three phase and a neutral. And there is a delta configuration with three phase only. Both appear as though they can be set to 208V > > > > > > I can't see any reason why I can't program the inverters at Delta and not have a neutral. Am I missing anything? I tried inquiring with Fronius, but it's a process and the conduit has to go into the ground today. > > Thanks wrenches! > > > -James Jefferson Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > +1-507-454-2727 > http://www.aprsworld.com/ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Tue Nov 5 11:14:31 2024 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2024 10:14:31 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback tech support Message-ID: Howdy, All of my numbers route me to a voicemail. Does anyone have a number to a real person? Thanks, Kris Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Tue Nov 5 11:33:21 2024 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jarvis) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2024 10:33:21 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius Symo 10.0-3 208V 3 phase WYE without neutral In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Answering the question, for the archives: Google "AI" found me a phone number 219-734-5500 which got me to a live Fronius tech support person in well less than a minute. This number doesn't appear to be on their website. Tech support definitively answered that no neutral is required and that is perfectly fine to configure the inverter for "delta" when connected to wye without a neutral present. She said there is no downside to it. She did say that a neutral is required for the 480 volt Symo inverters. Electrically this all is as I expected. This saves well over a thousand dollars of conduit and conductor. -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ On Tue, Nov 5, 2024 at 8:47 AM James Jarvis wrote: > Hi Group, > > We have an install with four Fronius Symo 10.0-3 inverters connected to a > 208V WYE building hundreds of feet away. While the building has a neutral, > I would like to avoid sending the neutral out to the inverters as it is a > waste of materials. More wire, bigger conduit, neutral kits in disconnects, > etc. > > The Symo manual indicates that there is a wye grid configuration with > three phase and a neutral. And there is a delta configuration with three > phase only. Both appear as though they can be set to 208V > > > > I can't see any reason why I can't program the inverters at Delta and not > have a neutral. Am I missing anything? I tried inquiring with Fronius, but > it's a process and the conduit has to go into the ground today. > > Thanks wrenches! > > > -James Jefferson Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > +1-507-454-2727 > http://www.aprsworld.com/ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Nov 5 18:45:29 2024 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2024 18:45:29 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old Unirac Rails Message-ID: Will new Unirac hardware work with old rails? We are putting new modules on a building that was re-roofed. It doesn't seem worthwhile to reinstall an array of 167 W modules with extensive squirrel damage to the leads. The array went up at least 12 years ago. The old rails are fine, but we don't want to deal with Weeb clips, which are not supposed to be reused anyway. The old module frames are 1.8 inches thick so the clamps need to be replaced. Are the new rails functionally different from the old ones? Thank you, Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Nov 5 18:59:27 2024 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2024 15:59:27 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old Unirac Rails In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Drake - We use the new style Unirac mids and ends frequently on older Unirac SolarMount rails without an issue. I think the vast majority of systems used SolarMount, but you'll want to verify that you have SolarMount rail rather than something that is discontinued - I think for a while they had a I-beam shaped rail and I have no idea if they make replacement parts for those old rails. They have a few variants of clamps now, we've had good luck with the Pro Series SM Midclamps and Universal AF end clamps. I think both go up to at least 46 mm, which is a little over 1.8." Good luck! August On Tue, Nov 5, 2024 at 3:45 PM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Will new Unirac hardware work with old rails? > > We are putting new modules on a building that was re-roofed. It doesn't > seem worthwhile to reinstall an array of 167 W modules with extensive > squirrel damage to the leads. The array went up at least 12 years ago. > > The old rails are fine, but we don't want to deal with Weeb clips, which > are not supposed to be reused anyway. The old module frames are 1.8 inches > thick so the clamps need to be replaced. > > Are the new rails functionally different from the old ones? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > > *Drake Chamberlin* > > *Athens Electric LLC* > > *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Wed Nov 6 08:42:05 2024 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2024 13:42:05 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback tech support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: They did call me back from a message left a week prior. Also emailed me with a case # and response. I’m waiting for a response back. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. On Nov 5, 2024, at 9:17 AM, Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches wrote:  Howdy, All of my numbers route me to a voicemail. Does anyone have a number to a real person? Thanks, Kris Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Wed Nov 6 09:41:39 2024 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2024 09:41:39 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback tech support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just for fun I visited the EG4 website to see if they showed any OutBack equipment listed. Nope. So I sent them a request via their website and asked when they planned on selling OB equipment. Below is their response. "EG4 does not intend on selling any Outback products." Crap, now what? On the surface it would appear that they bought OB in order to take them out as a competitor? I can't imagine buying a brand like OB and then just sitting on it? Anybody have any other insight? Thought you should know, Christopher On Wed, Nov 6, 2024 at 8:42 AM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > They did call me back from a message left a week prior. > Also emailed me with a case # and response. > I’m waiting for a response back. > > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > > On Nov 5, 2024, at 9:17 AM, Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Howdy, > > All of my numbers route me to a voicemail. Does anyone have a number to a > real person? > > Thanks, > Kris > > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 137 West 1st Avenue > Luck, WI 54853 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Nov 6 10:01:17 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2024 08:01:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback tech support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Chris, Outback wasn’t purchased by EG4 or signature solar but it was purchased by 1 owner of EG4/Signature solar and 1 from Big battery if my info is right. > On Nov 6, 2024, at 7:41 AM, Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Just for fun I visited the EG4 website to see if they showed any OutBack equipment listed. Nope. So I sent them a request via their website and asked when they planned on selling OB equipment. Below is their response. > > "EG4 does not intend on selling any Outback products." > > Crap, now what? On the surface it would appear that they bought OB in order to take them out as a competitor? I can't imagine buying a brand like OB and then just sitting on it? Anybody have any other insight? > > Thought you should know, > Christopher > > On Wed, Nov 6, 2024 at 8:42 AM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> They did call me back from a message left a week prior. >> Also emailed me with a case # and response. >> I’m waiting for a response back. >> >> >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> Solar Installation / Design >> All Solar, Inc. >> 1453 M St. >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. >> >>> On Nov 5, 2024, at 9:17 AM, Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> >>>  >>> Howdy, >>> >>> All of my numbers route me to a voicemail. Does anyone have a number to a real person? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Kris >>> >>> Shine On! >>> >>> Kris Schmid >>> Legacy Solar, LLC >>> 137 West 1st Avenue >>> Luck, WI 54853 >>> www.legacysolar.com >>> 715-653-4295 >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician >>> BSEE >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > -- > Chris Schaefer’s > > Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > 5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Thu Nov 7 08:31:31 2024 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2024 13:31:31 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Lithium absorb time in open loop configuration Message-ID: Wrenches Signature Solar has no absorb time recommendation for their rack mount EG4s ! I’m setting up a system with a 1200 ah battery stack. Six in parallel. What would be a good absorption time? No battery comms to CCs 5925 wPV Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Nov 7 08:59:01 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2024 06:59:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Lithium absorb time in open loop configuration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5CC15AAB-2C7D-403F-8648-118A421ADDBD@gmail.com> Hi Jeremy When I’ve watched eg4 inverter/battery closed loop do its thing, it spends seconds at top voltage setting. Depending on what CC settings you have, just a few minutes is all you need. Jay > On Nov 7, 2024, at 6:31 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Wrenches > Signature Solar has no absorb time recommendation for their rack mount EG4s ! > I’m setting up a system with a 1200 ah battery stack. Six in parallel. > What would be a good absorption time? No battery comms to CCs > 5925 wPV > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From ray at solarray.com Thu Nov 7 12:39:16 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2024 10:39:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Lithium absorb time in open loop configuration In-Reply-To: <5CC15AAB-2C7D-403F-8648-118A421ADDBD@gmail.com> References: <5CC15AAB-2C7D-403F-8648-118A421ADDBD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7bc1cd10-9ed1-4493-aadf-12d9a6fcba7c@solarray.com> Other LiPO4 brands seem to have very short absorb times. Simpliphi, Fortress, and Home grid all are 0.1 hrs or 15 minutes, depending the settings available on the CC. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 11/7/2024 6:59 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Jeremy > > When I’ve watched eg4 inverter/battery closed loop do its thing, it spends seconds at top voltage setting. > Depending on what CC settings you have, just a few minutes is all you need. > > Jay > >> On Nov 7, 2024, at 6:31 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Wrenches >> Signature Solar has no absorb time recommendation for their rack mount EG4s ! >> I’m setting up a system with a 1200 ah battery stack. Six in parallel. >> What would be a good absorption time? No battery comms to CCs >> 5925 wPV >> >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> Solar Installation / Design >> All Solar, Inc. >> 1453 M St. >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From nponzio at buildingenergyus.com Thu Nov 7 12:56:04 2024 From: nponzio at buildingenergyus.com (Nicholas Ponzio) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2024 12:56:04 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Commercial lead - Ohio In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I sent this to RE Markets but didn't get any hits at all.. Anybody on here interested in this kind of lead? Rooftop PV with possible battery storage. Please reply off-line to: nponzio at buildingenergyus.com Thanks ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Nicholas Ponzio Date: Thu, Oct 17, 2024, 08:14 Subject: Commercial lead - Ohio To: RE Marketing for home scale RE industry < re-markets at lists.re-wrenches.org> Any wrenches in the Minerva, OH area? -- Nicholas Ponzio Building Energy 1570 South Brownell Road Williston, VT 05495 Book a virtual meeting with me Email: nponzio at buildingenergyus.com http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com "Building Solutions for a Sustainable Future" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarwks at cybermesa.com Thu Nov 7 19:46:32 2024 From: solarwks at cybermesa.com (Carl Hansen) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2024 17:46:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Lithium absorb time in open loop configuration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jeremy,   Signature solar techs have told me 30 min.  Carl Hansen  Hansen&Sun Elect. On 2024-11-07 6:31 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches wrote: > Wrenches > Signature Solar has no absorb time recommendation for their rack mount EG4s ! > I’m setting up a system with a 1200 ah battery stack. Six in parallel. > What would be a good absorption time? No battery comms to CCs > 5925 wPV > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From steve at surrette.com Thu Nov 7 20:49:01 2024 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2024 17:49:01 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Lithium absorb time in open loop configuration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In my experience, when the LFP batteries are connected in an "Open Loop" (no comms), you typically want 20-30 minutes per parallel connected battery. When connected in closed loop comms, you can set this for much shorter (1/3 to 1/2) as the battery has control over the absorb timers based on the state of charge of all the individual batteries. Absorbing for longer will not hurt an LFP that has its own BMS. Still, if you don't absorb long enough, over time, this will cause an imbalance between the batteries and eventually could cause the lower batteries to crater under a surge load. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Thu, Nov 7, 2024 at 4:47 PM Carl Hansen via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jeremy, > > Signature solar techs have told me 30 min. > > Carl Hansen > > Hansen&Sun Elect. > > On 2024-11-07 6:31 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Wrenches > > Signature Solar has no absorb time recommendation for their rack mount > EG4s ! > > I’m setting up a system with a 1200 ah battery stack. Six in parallel. > > What would be a good absorption time? No battery comms to CCs > > 5925 wPV > > > > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > > Solar Installation / Design > > All Solar, Inc. > > 1453 M St. > > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Fri Nov 8 08:29:55 2024 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2024 08:29:55 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] [EXTERNAL] 208V residential service In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi All, I thought I'd report back on this one. First of all, ConEd gave a quote of over $19,000 to drop in a 240V transformer. So much for that route. The good news is that the IQ8A microinverters have been performing better than expected. Even though the data sheet says it goes down to 211V, it has connected and produced power every day so far without fail. Typically the voltage in the morning is about 207V. Then I would have expected the microinverters to produce much less power at the low voltage. I've seen the AC voltage rise up to 216V, and if it was limited to the 1.45a as shown in the datasheet, that would be 313w. It is rated for 349w continuous. I've seen the microinverters put out 339w continuous on a good day. So the current in the strings must be going higher than the rated value, and fortunately that is okay here. So, the only real impact is that the microinverters max out at about 10w less than rated power. It is not often that products exceed expectations and do better than the printed specs! Cheers, Dave On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 1:03 PM White, Will wrote: > I've seen this issue with a condo building. A competitor had installed a > set of Outback inverters that wouldn't work because of low AC voltage. They > had to swap them out for an inverter that would work at 208. > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Thursday, October 17, 2024 8:26 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Dave Tedeyan > *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] [RE-wrenches] 208V residential service > > > *CAUTION:* This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not > click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know > the content is safe. > > > Hi All, > > I was just out of town installing a system for a friend just North of NYC. > I was confused when checking phase for consumption CT's when I found that > there was 120V L-N, but 206V L-L. I went and found the transformer, and > there was in fact one transformer for all the houses that I could see. It > had 4 wires coming out of it, and each house was tapped onto 3 of them. So > they actually are just using two legs of a 3 phase 208/120V distribution > system. > > Has anyone seen this sort of thing before? I was amazed that a bunch of > houses there all have 208V L-L, and it seems to not be causing problems. > Granted my friend says his A/C is really weak and that they have had some > funky problems with their electric oven. But they also just moved in last > year, don't have many 240V (or 208V) appliances, and are not very > electrical savvy, so they were clueless about this. > > Unfortunately this means that all the Enphase IQ8A's I just put on their > roof are useless, unless I go back to put in a transformer or get the > utility to do something about it. I am going to call the utility (Con Ed), > but I was just curious if anyone has had a similar experience and whether > their utility was open to changing it to 240V. > > Cheers, > Dave > > -- > > [image: Logo] > > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > > c: (607) 270-0370 > ------------------------------ > > Please be advised that this email may contain confidential information. If > you are not the intended recipient, please notify us by email by replying > to the sender and delete this message. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Fri Nov 8 13:51:17 2024 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2024 11:51:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tough goods for a marine environment Message-ID: <00dd01db320f$32293060$967b9120$@OasisMontana.com> Hi folks: We're working on a system for a job off of the east coast; requirements include hurricane toughness and goods that can survive a saline marine environment. Does anyone even make powder-coated racks anymore? And who manufactures smaller, tougher solar modules? Your insights are always appreciated. Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Nov 8 14:09:28 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2024 12:09:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tough goods for a marine environment In-Reply-To: <00dd01db320f$32293060$967b9120$@OasisMontana.com> References: <00dd01db320f$32293060$967b9120$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Fri Nov 8 15:42:09 2024 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2024 15:42:09 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OB Charging/Comms Issues Message-ID: Hey wrenchers, I have an off-grid customer with a pair of VFX 3648 inverters, a FM 100 charge controller and two eVault classics in open loop. The issue is when the generator is charging the batteries, incoming amperage is all over the place and periodically, gradually drops to 0A then ramps back up. This is creating really long generator run times. When I turn off PV input, same results. When I turn off both PV input and charge controller output (turning off the CC entirely) the inverters hold a steady charge. If I remove the charge controllers comms cable from the hub, they both play nicely and charge cooperatively. This obviously sounds like a communication issue, but unfortunately, without the help of OB tech support, I am left speculating. I have checked all settings with a fine comb and nothing looks to be out of place. Has anyone experienced something similar to this? Thanks! Chris Sparadeo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Nov 8 15:58:09 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2024 12:58:09 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OB Charging/Comms Issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <459acf51c14d3d3aa157be07f73da21c@sti.net> Sounds like a basic generator issue. Use another gen for test ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-11-08 12:42 pm, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hey wrenchers, > > I have an off-grid customer with a pair of VFX 3648 inverters, a FM 100 > charge controller and two eVault classics in open loop. The issue is > when the generator is charging the batteries, incoming amperage is all > over the place and periodically, gradually drops to 0A then ramps back > up. This is creating really long generator run times. When I turn off > PV input, same results. When I turn off both PV input and charge > controller output (turning off the CC entirely) the inverters hold a > steady charge. If I remove the charge controllers comms cable from the > hub, they both play nicely and charge cooperatively. This obviously > sounds like a communication issue, but unfortunately, without the help > of OB tech support, I am left speculating. I have checked all settings > with a fine comb and nothing looks to be out of place. Has anyone > experienced something similar to this? > > Thanks! > > Chris Sparadeo > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Nov 8 16:03:27 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2024 14:03:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OB Charging/Comms Issues In-Reply-To: <459acf51c14d3d3aa157be07f73da21c@sti.net> References: <459acf51c14d3d3aa157be07f73da21c@sti.net> Message-ID: <995BA083-385F-45F3-8189-3C00DDC80CED@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Nov 8 16:04:34 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2024 14:04:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OB Charging/Comms Issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <36b8ebf3-b591-46af-9cf1-8e369c5d2919@solarray.com> Just goes to my rule for off grid, forget the comms.  Regardless of the Manu, I've been advised during trouble shooting to disconnect the comms, and it almost always fixes the problem. Honestly, I forgot what comms were supposed to fix in the first place.  I almost never even bother now. Mate 3 with HUB? Only if I have to.  Midnite "Follow Me"? pulled the cables.   All my systems are open communication.  Even battery to battery comms causes problems. Oh, and I recently had to buy a $400 PC laptop, just to do trouble shooting, and firmware updates on batteries.  I don't miss the acid burns in my jeans, but I'm not sure if I like my job as much, in the twilight years of my off grid career.    I'm spending as much time installing, as I am babysitting LiPO4 batteries that are supposed to operate maintenance free for 8000 cycles.  Yeah. Just yeah.  I'd be amazed at 800 cycles without having to truck out there to F with them.  Haven't seen a brand yet that has worked without some kind of trouble.  Blue Ion, Simpliphi, Fortress, Homegrid, EG4..... major trouble with everyone of them. Complete system shutdowns.  Rotting food in the fridge. I've heard acid burned jeans are coming back in fashion..... Ray Walters Remote Solar On 11/8/2024 1:42 PM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hey wrenchers, > > I have an off-grid customer with a pair of VFX 3648 inverters, a FM > 100 charge controller and two eVault classics in open loop. The issue > is when the generator is charging the batteries, incoming amperage is > all over the place and periodically, gradually drops to 0A then ramps > back up. This is creating really long generator run times. When I turn > off PV input, same results. When I turn off both PV input and charge > controller output (turning off the CC entirely) the inverters hold a > steady charge. If I remove the charge controllers comms cable from the > hub, they both play nicely and charge cooperatively. This obviously > sounds like a communication issue, but unfortunately, without the help > of OB tech support, I am left speculating. I have checked all settings > with a fine comb and nothing looks to be out of place.  Has anyone > experienced something similar to this? > > Thanks! > > Chris Sparadeo > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Nov 8 16:13:49 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2024 14:13:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OB Charging/Comms Issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8762CFAC-36AE-4053-89C7-514807DA510F@gmail.com> Hi Chris, Is this new or has it been always like this? jay > On Nov 8, 2024, at 1:42 PM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hey wrenchers, > > I have an off-grid customer with a pair of VFX 3648 inverters, a FM 100 charge controller and two eVault classics in open loop. The issue is when the generator is charging the batteries, incoming amperage is all over the place and periodically, gradually drops to 0A then ramps back up. This is creating really long generator run times. When I turn off PV input, same results. When I turn off both PV input and charge controller output (turning off the CC entirely) the inverters hold a steady charge. If I remove the charge controllers comms cable from the hub, they both play nicely and charge cooperatively. This obviously sounds like a communication issue, but unfortunately, without the help of OB tech support, I am left speculating. I have checked all settings with a fine comb and nothing looks to be out of place. Has anyone experienced something similar to this? > > Thanks! > > Chris Sparadeo > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Fri Nov 8 16:28:34 2024 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2024 16:28:34 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OB Charging/Comms Issues In-Reply-To: <8762CFAC-36AE-4053-89C7-514807DA510F@gmail.com> References: <8762CFAC-36AE-4053-89C7-514807DA510F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay, This is a new issue, but I don’t believe it’s generator related. Without CC comms plugged in, generator is steadily charging. It was serviced recently and has solid voltage and frequency under load. I am all for leaving the comms disconnected, but unfortunately there is no screen on the FM 100, so PV output wouldn’t be visible. On Fri, Nov 8, 2024 at 4:14 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Chris, > > Is this new or has it been always like this? > > jay > > > > > > > > > On Nov 8, 2024, at 1:42 PM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > > Hey wrenchers, > > > > I have an off-grid customer with a pair of VFX 3648 inverters, a FM 100 > charge controller and two eVault classics in open loop. The issue is when > the generator is charging the batteries, incoming amperage is all over the > place and periodically, gradually drops to 0A then ramps back up. This is > creating really long generator run times. When I turn off PV input, same > results. When I turn off both PV input and charge controller output > (turning off the CC entirely) the inverters hold a steady charge. If I > remove the charge controllers comms cable from the hub, they both play > nicely and charge cooperatively. This obviously sounds like a communication > issue, but unfortunately, without the help of OB tech support, I am left > speculating. I have checked all settings with a fine comb and nothing looks > to be out of place. Has anyone experienced something similar to this? > > > > Thanks! > > > > Chris Sparadeo > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Fri Nov 8 16:48:42 2024 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2024 13:48:42 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OB Charging/Comms Issues In-Reply-To: References: <8762CFAC-36AE-4053-89C7-514807DA510F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Out of curiosity, what mode are you in and what are the respective set points for absorb, float, rebulk, etc. For PV vs inverter? Tyrone Houck Oregon Solarworks LLC LRT #076 541-787-1366 tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com On Fri, Nov 8, 2024, 1:28 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Jay, > > This is a new issue, but I don’t believe it’s generator related. Without > CC comms plugged in, generator is steadily charging. It was serviced > recently and has solid voltage and frequency under load. > > I am all for leaving the comms disconnected, but unfortunately there is no > screen on the FM 100, so PV output wouldn’t be visible. > > > On Fri, Nov 8, 2024 at 4:14 PM jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi Chris, >> >> Is this new or has it been always like this? >> >> jay >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > On Nov 8, 2024, at 1:42 PM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> > >> > Hey wrenchers, >> > >> > I have an off-grid customer with a pair of VFX 3648 inverters, a FM 100 >> charge controller and two eVault classics in open loop. The issue is when >> the generator is charging the batteries, incoming amperage is all over the >> place and periodically, gradually drops to 0A then ramps back up. This is >> creating really long generator run times. When I turn off PV input, same >> results. When I turn off both PV input and charge controller output >> (turning off the CC entirely) the inverters hold a steady charge. If I >> remove the charge controllers comms cable from the hub, they both play >> nicely and charge cooperatively. This obviously sounds like a communication >> issue, but unfortunately, without the help of OB tech support, I am left >> speculating. I have checked all settings with a fine comb and nothing looks >> to be out of place. Has anyone experienced something similar to this? >> > >> > Thanks! >> > >> > Chris Sparadeo >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Fri Nov 8 17:17:16 2024 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2024 17:17:16 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OB Charging/Comms Issues In-Reply-To: References: <8762CFAC-36AE-4053-89C7-514807DA510F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Tyrone, System is in off-grid and generator input mode and both inverters and charge controllers are calibrated correctly and set to 54.4 Vdc absorb and float. Rebulk is at 52.5 Vdc. On Fri, Nov 8, 2024 at 4:49 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Out of curiosity, what mode are you in and what are the respective set > points for absorb, float, rebulk, etc. For PV vs inverter? > > Tyrone Houck > Oregon Solarworks LLC > LRT #076 > 541-787-1366 > tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com > > > > > On Fri, Nov 8, 2024, 1:28 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi Jay, >> >> This is a new issue, but I don’t believe it’s generator related. Without >> CC comms plugged in, generator is steadily charging. It was serviced >> recently and has solid voltage and frequency under load. >> >> I am all for leaving the comms disconnected, but unfortunately there is >> no screen on the FM 100, so PV output wouldn’t be visible. >> >> >> On Fri, Nov 8, 2024 at 4:14 PM jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi Chris, >>> >>> Is this new or has it been always like this? >>> >>> jay >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > On Nov 8, 2024, at 1:42 PM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> > >>> > Hey wrenchers, >>> > >>> > I have an off-grid customer with a pair of VFX 3648 inverters, a FM >>> 100 charge controller and two eVault classics in open loop. The issue is >>> when the generator is charging the batteries, incoming amperage is all over >>> the place and periodically, gradually drops to 0A then ramps back up. This >>> is creating really long generator run times. When I turn off PV input, same >>> results. When I turn off both PV input and charge controller output >>> (turning off the CC entirely) the inverters hold a steady charge. If I >>> remove the charge controllers comms cable from the hub, they both play >>> nicely and charge cooperatively. This obviously sounds like a communication >>> issue, but unfortunately, without the help of OB tech support, I am left >>> speculating. I have checked all settings with a fine comb and nothing looks >>> to be out of place. Has anyone experienced something similar to this? >>> > >>> > Thanks! >>> > >>> > Chris Sparadeo >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> > >>> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > List rules & etiquette: >>> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> > >>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Nov 8 17:42:46 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2024 15:42:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OB Charging/Comms Issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Nov 8 19:45:22 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2024 17:45:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OB Charging/Comms Issues In-Reply-To: References: <8762CFAC-36AE-4053-89C7-514807DA510F@gmail.com> Message-ID: You could connect the Mate to the FM 100, but not the inverters. Screen, no  comms. Ray On 11/8/2024 2:28 PM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Jay, > > This is a new issue, but I don’t believe it’s generator related. > Without CC comms plugged in, generator is steadily charging. It was > serviced recently and has solid voltage and frequency under load. > I am all for leaving the comms disconnected, but unfortunately there > is no screen on the FM 100, so PV output wouldn’t be visible. > > > On Fri, Nov 8, 2024 at 4:14 PM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi Chris, > > Is this new or has it been always like this? > > jay > > > > > > > > > On Nov 8, 2024, at 1:42 PM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > > > Hey wrenchers, > > > > I have an off-grid customer with a pair of VFX 3648 inverters, a > FM 100 charge controller and two eVault classics in open loop. The > issue is when the generator is charging the batteries, incoming > amperage is all over the place and periodically, gradually drops > to 0A then ramps back up. This is creating really long generator > run times. When I turn off PV input, same results. When I turn off > both PV input and charge controller output (turning off the CC > entirely) the inverters hold a steady charge. If I remove the > charge controllers comms cable from the hub, they both play nicely > and charge cooperatively. This obviously sounds like a > communication issue, but unfortunately, without the help of OB > tech support, I am left speculating. I have checked all settings > with a fine comb and nothing looks to be out of place.  Has anyone > experienced something similar to this? > > > > Thanks! > > > > Chris Sparadeo > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't > work, try the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gowdyelectriccambria at gmail.com Fri Nov 8 23:33:30 2024 From: gowdyelectriccambria at gmail.com (Jim Gowdy) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2024 20:33:30 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator overvoltage troubleshoot Message-ID: Hi all, I need some help with a generator overvoltage troubleshoot. I'm working on an outback offgrid system that consists of 2 x Radian GS8048a, 1 x MATE3S controller, 1 x FM 80 charge controller, 1 x 55kw cummins generator, about 4kw of solar *not sufficient enough to keep up with the load, and 24 x 4v Rolls batteries series/paralleled to make 48v. The generator was rebuilt and the batteries replaced about a year ago and since then, the generator has been faulting due to overvoltage. I had help and first found that the MATE needed calibrating so that was done, but the generator still was faulting. I found changing the AC Input Charging from 30a to 20a seemed to work. I put a power monitor on the generator output and found that, with the AC Input Charging set at 30a, noticed that there was a voltage spike up to 300+V at about a 70a draw. The generator company put a load bank on and verified the generator may not be at fault and the problem is after the generator. Has anyone encountered a problem like this and have suggestions? -- Jim with Gowdy Electric Cambria, Ca 93428 business 805 927 2630 cell 805 975 5279 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sat Nov 9 07:58:44 2024 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2024 05:58:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator overvoltage troubleshoot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jim, I think the voltage regulator on the generator is the issue, but you may be able to fix it by trying a different AC input mode. What is the AC input mode are you using on the Radians? Are the modes the same on each Radian? Since you have a range of input that you can get it to hiccup, I'd try playing with the AC input modes through the problematic range. I tend to use support mode with the least trouble. What are the downstream loads? I could see perhaps how a downstream load that is large and inductive and shuts down rapidly could cause a voltage spike, but really the voltage regulator is in charge of that. ANother thing to check is torque/corrosion on your connections. I like to use an IR camera to speed up looking for connection issues. Let us know what you find out. On Fri, Nov 8, 2024 at 9:34 PM Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi all, > I need some help with a generator overvoltage troubleshoot. I'm > working on an outback offgrid system that consists of 2 x Radian GS8048a, 1 > x MATE3S controller, 1 x FM 80 charge controller, 1 x 55kw cummins > generator, about 4kw of solar *not sufficient enough to keep up with the > load, and 24 x 4v Rolls batteries series/paralleled to make 48v. The > generator was rebuilt and the batteries replaced about a year ago and since > then, the generator has been faulting due to overvoltage. I had help and > first found that the MATE needed calibrating so that was done, but the > generator still was faulting. I found changing the AC Input Charging from > 30a to 20a seemed to work. I put a power monitor on the generator output > and found that, with the AC Input Charging set at 30a, noticed that there > was a voltage spike up to 300+V at about a 70a draw. The generator company > put a load bank on and verified the generator may not be at fault and the > problem is after the generator. Has anyone encountered a problem like this > and have suggestions? > > -- > Jim with Gowdy Electric > Cambria, Ca 93428 > business 805 927 2630 > cell 805 975 5279 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Sat Nov 9 09:24:54 2024 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2024 06:24:54 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator overvoltage troubleshoot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Which Cummins? On Sat, Nov 9, 2024 at 4:59 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Jim, > > I think the voltage regulator on the generator is the issue, but you may > be able to fix it by trying a different AC input mode. What is the AC > input mode are you using on the Radians? Are the modes the same on each > Radian? Since you have a range of input that you can get it to hiccup, I'd > try playing with the AC input modes through the problematic range. I tend > to use support mode with the least trouble. > > What are the downstream loads? > > I could see perhaps how a downstream load that is large and inductive and > shuts down rapidly could cause a voltage spike, but really the voltage > regulator is in charge of that. > > ANother thing to check is torque/corrosion on your connections. I like to > use an IR camera to speed up looking for connection issues. > > Let us know what you find out. > > On Fri, Nov 8, 2024 at 9:34 PM Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi all, >> I need some help with a generator overvoltage troubleshoot. I'm >> working on an outback offgrid system that consists of 2 x Radian GS8048a, 1 >> x MATE3S controller, 1 x FM 80 charge controller, 1 x 55kw cummins >> generator, about 4kw of solar *not sufficient enough to keep up with the >> load, and 24 x 4v Rolls batteries series/paralleled to make 48v. The >> generator was rebuilt and the batteries replaced about a year ago and since >> then, the generator has been faulting due to overvoltage. I had help and >> first found that the MATE needed calibrating so that was done, but the >> generator still was faulting. I found changing the AC Input Charging from >> 30a to 20a seemed to work. I put a power monitor on the generator output >> and found that, with the AC Input Charging set at 30a, noticed that there >> was a voltage spike up to 300+V at about a 70a draw. The generator company >> put a load bank on and verified the generator may not be at fault and the >> problem is after the generator. Has anyone encountered a problem like this >> and have suggestions? >> >> -- >> Jim with Gowdy Electric >> Cambria, Ca 93428 >> business 805 927 2630 >> cell 805 975 5279 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Nov 9 10:15:39 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2024 10:15:39 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] More Issues with Parallel Sol-Ark 15K System Message-ID: I wrote in another thread about an off-grid quad Sol-Ark system that was shutting down due to parallel stop when one of the four inverters experienced a DC PV fault, and how that shutdown is far from ideal. The same system is down once again, this time due to an AC fault code. The homeowner started getting repeated F18 and F34 AC overcurrent faults on one of the slave inverters. This, in turn, shut the entire system down due to parallel stop faults (F41). None of the other units had AC overcurrent faults, and the load is nowhere near requiring all four inverters for even the most demanding circumstances. It was designed this way for redundancy, which I am quickly finding out is not Sol-Ark's strong suit. To diagnose the issue remotely, I had the owner turn off all four load breakers, all DC PV input, and the AC microinverter input on the GEN terminals. I had them restart everything (several times). Every time, the same inverter would have repeated AC overcurrent faults, and the others would have parallel system faults. Since there were no loads connected by virtue of the load breakers being open, I suspected this had to be an internal fault. I went to the site, and Sol-Ark Tier 1 tech support had me shut off all inverters and take the suspect inverter out of parallel operation mode. As a standalone master it was able to power up and support the entire house load without issue. Then we reprogrammed it for parallel operation again and turned everything back on. We were unable to stay on the phone long enough to determine if this was successful, but ultimately, the fault returned. I was told to call and ask for Tier 2 next time if it happened again, which I intend to do on Monday. At this point, the issue can only be internal to the unit, and I intend to demand warranty replacement of suspect components or the whole unit. I had to get the system running, so I wanted to take the bad inverter out of the parallel system. I was hoping that simply shutting it down would work. This is the third of 4 inverters in the Modbus chain. When turning it off completely (all AC and DC switches disconnected), the 4th inverter would fault, presumably because the Modbus signal was not being relayed, but inverters #1 and #2 worked fine. However, I wanted #4 to also continue working while taking #3 out of service. So then I turned on the battery disconnect for #3 but left it in the off mode by not pressing the on/off button, thinking that it would allow relay of the Modbus signal from #2 to #4. That allowed the system to work momentarily, but then everything faulted out due to parallel system stop. In other words, I was going to have to physically take #3 out of the Modbus daisy chain to make this work. Of course, I didn't have a long enough Cat5 cable with me, nor a Cat5 splice connector. So I had to rig something, which I did successfully to jumper from #2 to #4. But when I turned everything back on, #4 still would not work. I eventually realized that you have to change the Modbus address from 04 to 03 in the settings. Apparently, the addresses need to be sequential for it to work. Once I did this, I was able to get the system up and running again as a triple-inverter parallel setup. No faults were observed. So the theory was proven that #3 has an issue internally. Anyway, bottom line, I am disappointed at how one inverter fault takes down the whole paralleled system, and also how taking a faulted inverter out of the system requires physical and programming changes. Turning it off should be sufficient. This is a very poor way to implement a parallel system that should provide the peace of mind that redundancy implies. Now I have a customer who thought they were getting a system with failsafe redundancy that actually requires a service call every time one of the paralleled units decides it does not want to play nicely with others. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Nov 9 10:48:22 2024 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2024 07:48:22 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator overvoltage troubleshoot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jim Is the system set to global, i had seen issues with this setting, some of what you said also fits. Fun times On Fri, Nov 8, 2024, 8:34 PM Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi all, > I need some help with a generator overvoltage troubleshoot. I'm > working on an outback offgrid system that consists of 2 x Radian GS8048a, 1 > x MATE3S controller, 1 x FM 80 charge controller, 1 x 55kw cummins > generator, about 4kw of solar *not sufficient enough to keep up with the > load, and 24 x 4v Rolls batteries series/paralleled to make 48v. The > generator was rebuilt and the batteries replaced about a year ago and since > then, the generator has been faulting due to overvoltage. I had help and > first found that the MATE needed calibrating so that was done, but the > generator still was faulting. I found changing the AC Input Charging from > 30a to 20a seemed to work. I put a power monitor on the generator output > and found that, with the AC Input Charging set at 30a, noticed that there > was a voltage spike up to 300+V at about a 70a draw. The generator company > put a load bank on and verified the generator may not be at fault and the > problem is after the generator. Has anyone encountered a problem like this > and have suggestions? > > -- > Jim with Gowdy Electric > Cambria, Ca 93428 > business 805 927 2630 > cell 805 975 5279 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Sat Nov 9 10:54:52 2024 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2024 07:54:52 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] More Issues with Parallel Sol-Ark 15K System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I wish I didn't know what you were talking about! : ) On Sat, Nov 9, 2024 at 7:16 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I wrote in another thread about an off-grid quad Sol-Ark system that was > shutting down due to parallel stop when one of the four inverters > experienced a DC PV fault, and how that shutdown is far from ideal. The > same system is down once again, this time due to an AC fault code. > > The homeowner started getting repeated F18 and F34 AC overcurrent faults > on one of the slave inverters. This, in turn, shut the entire system down > due to parallel stop faults (F41). None of the other units had AC > overcurrent faults, and the load is nowhere near requiring all four > inverters for even the most demanding circumstances. It was designed this > way for redundancy, which I am quickly finding out is not Sol-Ark's strong > suit. > > To diagnose the issue remotely, I had the owner turn off all four load > breakers, all DC PV input, and the AC microinverter input on the GEN > terminals. I had them restart everything (several times). Every time, the > same inverter would have repeated AC overcurrent faults, and the others > would have parallel system faults. Since there were no loads connected by > virtue of the load breakers being open, I suspected this had to be an > internal fault. > > I went to the site, and Sol-Ark Tier 1 tech support had me shut off all > inverters and take the suspect inverter out of parallel operation mode. As > a standalone master it was able to power up and support the entire house > load without issue. Then we reprogrammed it for parallel operation again > and turned everything back on. We were unable to stay on the phone long > enough to determine if this was successful, but ultimately, the fault > returned. I was told to call and ask for Tier 2 next time if it happened > again, which I intend to do on Monday. At this point, the issue can only be > internal to the unit, and I intend to demand warranty replacement of > suspect components or the whole unit. > > I had to get the system running, so I wanted to take the bad inverter out > of the parallel system. I was hoping that simply shutting it down would > work. This is the third of 4 inverters in the Modbus chain. When turning it > off completely (all AC and DC switches disconnected), the 4th inverter > would fault, presumably because the Modbus signal was not being relayed, > but inverters #1 and #2 worked fine. However, I wanted #4 to also continue > working while taking #3 out of service. So then I turned on the battery > disconnect for #3 but left it in the off mode by not pressing the on/off > button, thinking that it would allow relay of the Modbus signal from #2 to > #4. That allowed the system to work momentarily, but then everything > faulted out due to parallel system stop. In other words, I was going to > have to physically take #3 out of the Modbus daisy chain to make this work. > > Of course, I didn't have a long enough Cat5 cable with me, nor a Cat5 > splice connector. So I had to rig something, which I did successfully to > jumper from #2 to #4. But when I turned everything back on, #4 still would > not work. I eventually realized that you have to change the Modbus address > from 04 to 03 in the settings. Apparently, the addresses need to be > sequential for it to work. Once I did this, I was able to get the system up > and running again as a triple-inverter parallel setup. No faults were > observed. So the theory was proven that #3 has an issue internally. > > > Anyway, bottom line, I am disappointed at how one inverter fault takes > down the whole paralleled system, and also how taking a faulted inverter > out of the system requires physical and programming changes. Turning it off > should be sufficient. This is a very poor way to implement a parallel > system that should provide the peace of mind that redundancy implies. Now I > have a customer who thought they were getting a system with failsafe > redundancy that actually requires a service call every time one of the > paralleled units decides it does not want to play nicely with others. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Nov 9 11:21:29 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2024 11:21:29 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] More Issues with Parallel Sol-Ark 15K System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Redundancy is so important, and it seems like some manufacturers have not thought this through and implemented a truly redundant or failsafe system. I am somewhat interested in the direction that Enphase is headed with allowing fully off-grid systems. The "no single point of failure" concept is attractive, but in practice, it is not really true since there are obviously central components that can fail to perform. The Tesla PW3 concept is interesting in that you can just feed essentially independent Powewall units into a Gateway, and failure of one will not cause failure of others (I believe this to be true, but I am not certain). Sadly, they do not support off-grid systems. With the issues I am having at this particular site, I am contemplating reconfiguring it to use an automatic transfer switch to turn on the generator and directly power loads when inverter power is lost (through faults or otherwise). I have not completely thought this through to determine how it can work to both serve this redundancy function while remaining a potential battery charging source during normal conditions. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sat, Nov 9, 2024 at 10:55 AM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I wish I didn't know what you were talking about! : ) > > On Sat, Nov 9, 2024 at 7:16 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I wrote in another thread about an off-grid quad Sol-Ark system that was >> shutting down due to parallel stop when one of the four inverters >> experienced a DC PV fault, and how that shutdown is far from ideal. The >> same system is down once again, this time due to an AC fault code. >> >> The homeowner started getting repeated F18 and F34 AC overcurrent faults >> on one of the slave inverters. This, in turn, shut the entire system down >> due to parallel stop faults (F41). None of the other units had AC >> overcurrent faults, and the load is nowhere near requiring all four >> inverters for even the most demanding circumstances. It was designed this >> way for redundancy, which I am quickly finding out is not Sol-Ark's strong >> suit. >> >> To diagnose the issue remotely, I had the owner turn off all four load >> breakers, all DC PV input, and the AC microinverter input on the GEN >> terminals. I had them restart everything (several times). Every time, the >> same inverter would have repeated AC overcurrent faults, and the others >> would have parallel system faults. Since there were no loads connected by >> virtue of the load breakers being open, I suspected this had to be an >> internal fault. >> >> I went to the site, and Sol-Ark Tier 1 tech support had me shut off all >> inverters and take the suspect inverter out of parallel operation mode. As >> a standalone master it was able to power up and support the entire house >> load without issue. Then we reprogrammed it for parallel operation again >> and turned everything back on. We were unable to stay on the phone long >> enough to determine if this was successful, but ultimately, the fault >> returned. I was told to call and ask for Tier 2 next time if it happened >> again, which I intend to do on Monday. At this point, the issue can only be >> internal to the unit, and I intend to demand warranty replacement of >> suspect components or the whole unit. >> >> I had to get the system running, so I wanted to take the bad inverter out >> of the parallel system. I was hoping that simply shutting it down would >> work. This is the third of 4 inverters in the Modbus chain. When turning it >> off completely (all AC and DC switches disconnected), the 4th inverter >> would fault, presumably because the Modbus signal was not being relayed, >> but inverters #1 and #2 worked fine. However, I wanted #4 to also continue >> working while taking #3 out of service. So then I turned on the battery >> disconnect for #3 but left it in the off mode by not pressing the on/off >> button, thinking that it would allow relay of the Modbus signal from #2 to >> #4. That allowed the system to work momentarily, but then everything >> faulted out due to parallel system stop. In other words, I was going to >> have to physically take #3 out of the Modbus daisy chain to make this work. >> >> Of course, I didn't have a long enough Cat5 cable with me, nor a Cat5 >> splice connector. So I had to rig something, which I did successfully to >> jumper from #2 to #4. But when I turned everything back on, #4 still would >> not work. I eventually realized that you have to change the Modbus address >> from 04 to 03 in the settings. Apparently, the addresses need to be >> sequential for it to work. Once I did this, I was able to get the system up >> and running again as a triple-inverter parallel setup. No faults were >> observed. So the theory was proven that #3 has an issue internally. >> >> >> Anyway, bottom line, I am disappointed at how one inverter fault takes >> down the whole paralleled system, and also how taking a faulted inverter >> out of the system requires physical and programming changes. Turning it off >> should be sufficient. This is a very poor way to implement a parallel >> system that should provide the peace of mind that redundancy implies. Now I >> have a customer who thought they were getting a system with failsafe >> redundancy that actually requires a service call every time one of the >> paralleled units decides it does not want to play nicely with others. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric Inc > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > CSLB 1116835 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Nov 9 11:32:47 2024 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2024 08:32:47 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] More Issues with Parallel Sol-Ark 15K System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason, Everything points to a internal issue maybe with a CT, ribbon connection or just a bad board, regardless a new inverter is the key and solark should really want to investigate the issue themselves anyway. Fun times On Sat, Nov 9, 2024, 7:16 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I wrote in another thread about an off-grid quad Sol-Ark system that was > shutting down due to parallel stop when one of the four inverters > experienced a DC PV fault, and how that shutdown is far from ideal. The > same system is down once again, this time due to an AC fault code. > > The homeowner started getting repeated F18 and F34 AC overcurrent faults > on one of the slave inverters. This, in turn, shut the entire system down > due to parallel stop faults (F41). None of the other units had AC > overcurrent faults, and the load is nowhere near requiring all four > inverters for even the most demanding circumstances. It was designed this > way for redundancy, which I am quickly finding out is not Sol-Ark's strong > suit. > > To diagnose the issue remotely, I had the owner turn off all four load > breakers, all DC PV input, and the AC microinverter input on the GEN > terminals. I had them restart everything (several times). Every time, the > same inverter would have repeated AC overcurrent faults, and the others > would have parallel system faults. Since there were no loads connected by > virtue of the load breakers being open, I suspected this had to be an > internal fault. > > I went to the site, and Sol-Ark Tier 1 tech support had me shut off all > inverters and take the suspect inverter out of parallel operation mode. As > a standalone master it was able to power up and support the entire house > load without issue. Then we reprogrammed it for parallel operation again > and turned everything back on. We were unable to stay on the phone long > enough to determine if this was successful, but ultimately, the fault > returned. I was told to call and ask for Tier 2 next time if it happened > again, which I intend to do on Monday. At this point, the issue can only be > internal to the unit, and I intend to demand warranty replacement of > suspect components or the whole unit. > > I had to get the system running, so I wanted to take the bad inverter out > of the parallel system. I was hoping that simply shutting it down would > work. This is the third of 4 inverters in the Modbus chain. When turning it > off completely (all AC and DC switches disconnected), the 4th inverter > would fault, presumably because the Modbus signal was not being relayed, > but inverters #1 and #2 worked fine. However, I wanted #4 to also continue > working while taking #3 out of service. So then I turned on the battery > disconnect for #3 but left it in the off mode by not pressing the on/off > button, thinking that it would allow relay of the Modbus signal from #2 to > #4. That allowed the system to work momentarily, but then everything > faulted out due to parallel system stop. In other words, I was going to > have to physically take #3 out of the Modbus daisy chain to make this work. > > Of course, I didn't have a long enough Cat5 cable with me, nor a Cat5 > splice connector. So I had to rig something, which I did successfully to > jumper from #2 to #4. But when I turned everything back on, #4 still would > not work. I eventually realized that you have to change the Modbus address > from 04 to 03 in the settings. Apparently, the addresses need to be > sequential for it to work. Once I did this, I was able to get the system up > and running again as a triple-inverter parallel setup. No faults were > observed. So the theory was proven that #3 has an issue internally. > > > Anyway, bottom line, I am disappointed at how one inverter fault takes > down the whole paralleled system, and also how taking a faulted inverter > out of the system requires physical and programming changes. Turning it off > should be sufficient. This is a very poor way to implement a parallel > system that should provide the peace of mind that redundancy implies. Now I > have a customer who thought they were getting a system with failsafe > redundancy that actually requires a service call every time one of the > paralleled units decides it does not want to play nicely with others. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Nov 9 11:45:53 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2024 11:45:53 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] More Issues with Parallel Sol-Ark 15K System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I agree with that diagnosis. I did a visual inspection of the boards and ribbon cables, and everything seems to be okay. It's strange that the inverter worked fine in standalone mode. That points to something in the paralleling circuitry or software. Getting past Tier 1 tech support can be agonizing, but at least I have an established case now. As a customer service gesture, I'm prepared to take a new unit off my shelf and fight with Sol-Ark later to get this system back up and running as the quad setup that my customer purchased. This should have been a clear cut RMA by Tier 1 support in my opinion. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sat, Nov 9, 2024 at 11:33 AM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Jason, > Everything points to a internal issue maybe with a CT, ribbon connection > or just a bad board, regardless a new inverter is the key and solark should > really want to investigate the issue themselves anyway. > Fun times > > On Sat, Nov 9, 2024, 7:16 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I wrote in another thread about an off-grid quad Sol-Ark system that was >> shutting down due to parallel stop when one of the four inverters >> experienced a DC PV fault, and how that shutdown is far from ideal. The >> same system is down once again, this time due to an AC fault code. >> >> The homeowner started getting repeated F18 and F34 AC overcurrent faults >> on one of the slave inverters. This, in turn, shut the entire system down >> due to parallel stop faults (F41). None of the other units had AC >> overcurrent faults, and the load is nowhere near requiring all four >> inverters for even the most demanding circumstances. It was designed this >> way for redundancy, which I am quickly finding out is not Sol-Ark's strong >> suit. >> >> To diagnose the issue remotely, I had the owner turn off all four load >> breakers, all DC PV input, and the AC microinverter input on the GEN >> terminals. I had them restart everything (several times). Every time, the >> same inverter would have repeated AC overcurrent faults, and the others >> would have parallel system faults. Since there were no loads connected by >> virtue of the load breakers being open, I suspected this had to be an >> internal fault. >> >> I went to the site, and Sol-Ark Tier 1 tech support had me shut off all >> inverters and take the suspect inverter out of parallel operation mode. As >> a standalone master it was able to power up and support the entire house >> load without issue. Then we reprogrammed it for parallel operation again >> and turned everything back on. We were unable to stay on the phone long >> enough to determine if this was successful, but ultimately, the fault >> returned. I was told to call and ask for Tier 2 next time if it happened >> again, which I intend to do on Monday. At this point, the issue can only be >> internal to the unit, and I intend to demand warranty replacement of >> suspect components or the whole unit. >> >> I had to get the system running, so I wanted to take the bad inverter out >> of the parallel system. I was hoping that simply shutting it down would >> work. This is the third of 4 inverters in the Modbus chain. When turning it >> off completely (all AC and DC switches disconnected), the 4th inverter >> would fault, presumably because the Modbus signal was not being relayed, >> but inverters #1 and #2 worked fine. However, I wanted #4 to also continue >> working while taking #3 out of service. So then I turned on the battery >> disconnect for #3 but left it in the off mode by not pressing the on/off >> button, thinking that it would allow relay of the Modbus signal from #2 to >> #4. That allowed the system to work momentarily, but then everything >> faulted out due to parallel system stop. In other words, I was going to >> have to physically take #3 out of the Modbus daisy chain to make this work. >> >> Of course, I didn't have a long enough Cat5 cable with me, nor a Cat5 >> splice connector. So I had to rig something, which I did successfully to >> jumper from #2 to #4. But when I turned everything back on, #4 still would >> not work. I eventually realized that you have to change the Modbus address >> from 04 to 03 in the settings. Apparently, the addresses need to be >> sequential for it to work. Once I did this, I was able to get the system up >> and running again as a triple-inverter parallel setup. No faults were >> observed. So the theory was proven that #3 has an issue internally. >> >> >> Anyway, bottom line, I am disappointed at how one inverter fault takes >> down the whole paralleled system, and also how taking a faulted inverter >> out of the system requires physical and programming changes. Turning it off >> should be sufficient. This is a very poor way to implement a parallel >> system that should provide the peace of mind that redundancy implies. Now I >> have a customer who thought they were getting a system with failsafe >> redundancy that actually requires a service call every time one of the >> paralleled units decides it does not want to play nicely with others. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Nov 9 11:53:53 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2024 11:53:53 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 12K AC Input LED Meaning Message-ID: Hi all, This is just a PSA in case it helps someone in the future. I was under the impression that the AC Input LED on the Sol-Ark inverters meant that there is "good" AC detected by the inverter on the grid terminals and after some period of delay, something should start happening based on how the inverter is programmed (grid sell, battery charge, etc). That is not the case. I stupidly stared at a solid green light for far too long, scratching my head and searching the settings before pulling out my meter and finding out that there was only 115V coming in line to line from a generator. It turned out to be a hidden wire nut in a closet that came loose on one of the hots (I didn't install this system, and assumed the generator feed was unspliced, but later found out the hard way that the conductor was not continuous and a total amateur installed the system). The moral of the story is that the LED will apparently be solid with any AC voltage, even if it is far out of range. I thought it would be blinking or another color if the AC input was not within range, and solid only when "good" AC was detected. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Sat Nov 9 15:40:34 2024 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2024 12:40:34 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Powerflo16 with Radian Message-ID: Greetings Wrenches, Wondering if any of you have successfully paired the new Powerflo16 with a GS8048-A yet? There is no reason it shouldn't work yet I've unsuccessfully been to a customer's site three times now without a fix. The Radian setup had been in use with an FLA Trojan pack for years till their demise due to the client unknowingly turned off the AC input source to keep them charged for his backup system lacking PV. Network is too far away therefore I didn't have Optics otherwise I would have caught it. Have not ruled out that there may have been another fault with the Radian before all this but the AC input seemed most logical and was known to be turned off by accident previously. Upon closing the Powerflo battery breaker to inverter the Mate3s lights up momentarily while briefly receiving full voltage but then DC voltage sinks to around 2-18vdc then either trips the breaker on the Powerflo16 or lights up the fault indicator. Spoke with Midnite support and they recommended a workaround to the BMS pre-charge boot up process but that didn't resolve the issue either. I originally thought it must be a failed Spare215 power supply board but after swapping there was no effect. Next return trip I brought a Rosie with me and everything powered up just fine so I then figured it would be the Spare 204 board stack but had the same exact effect when I tried that swap today. My next step is returning to swap the Spare-205 power control modules but first I'm going to unbox another Powerflo16 at my shop and pair it with a brand new Radian that has not yet been cannibalized. I've installed 42 Radians and only had two with failed Spare-205 control modules but each time it was a similar outcome with them being the last thing I swapped to success. I'm thinking it must be a failed Spare-205 but since the Powerflo has only been shipping for a couple months I just wanted to run this by the group to see how many have successfully paired these two components at this point. The Radian is still under warranty but that seems pretty meaningless at this point. One way or another this job is going to be a loss at this point but oddly still having fun working through a new head scratcher. Thanks for any insight, Nick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Sat Nov 9 16:25:04 2024 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2024 16:25:04 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Powerflo16 with Radian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Nick There are PF16's running open loop with Radians. The PF16 has a precharge built in. The key is to have the inverter breaker closed, then close the battery breaker. After that push the BMS power button (3-4 seconds the display will power up) and the battery will slowly ramp up and do a precharge before fully starting. Reach out to me off the list and I can help you more if the "new" radian does not work. Thanks Logan On Sat, Nov 9, 2024 at 3:41 PM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Greetings Wrenches, > > Wondering if any of you have successfully paired the new Powerflo16 with a > GS8048-A yet? There is no reason it shouldn't work yet I've unsuccessfully > been to a customer's site three times now without a fix. The Radian setup > had been in use with an FLA Trojan pack for years till their demise due to > the client unknowingly turned off the AC input source to keep them charged > for his backup system lacking PV. Network is too far away therefore I > didn't have Optics otherwise I would have caught it. Have not ruled out > that there may have been another fault with the Radian before all this but > the AC input seemed most logical and was known to be turned off by accident > previously. > > Upon closing the Powerflo battery breaker to inverter the Mate3s lights up > momentarily while briefly receiving full voltage but then DC voltage sinks > to around 2-18vdc then either trips the breaker on the Powerflo16 or lights > up the fault indicator. Spoke with Midnite support and they recommended a > workaround to the BMS pre-charge boot up process but that didn't resolve > the issue either. I originally thought it must be a failed Spare215 power > supply board but after swapping there was no effect. Next return trip I > brought a Rosie with me and everything powered up just fine so I then > figured it would be the Spare 204 board stack but had the same exact effect > when I tried that swap today. My next step is returning to swap the > Spare-205 power control modules but first I'm going to unbox another > Powerflo16 at my shop and pair it with a brand new Radian that has not yet > been cannibalized. I've installed 42 Radians and only had two with failed > Spare-205 control modules but each time it was a similar outcome with them > being the last thing I swapped to success. > > I'm thinking it must be a failed Spare-205 but since the Powerflo has only > been shipping for a couple months I just wanted to run this by the group to > see how many have successfully paired these two components at this point. > The Radian is still under warranty but that seems pretty meaningless at > this point. One way or another this job is going to be a loss at this point > but oddly still having fun working through a new head scratcher. > > Thanks for any insight, Nick > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Sat Nov 9 16:28:30 2024 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2024 13:28:30 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Powerflo16 with Radian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Maybe a silly question but have you tried shutting off all load breakers(ac output) and charge controller breakers before powering up? I've noticed radians have a hard time powering up on homegrids if they have a load. If I have to do a hard reset on a radian I also shutdown the charge controllers and turn on inverter battery breaker first followed by charge controller breakers and finally ac output breaker. Otherwise it does a thing where the radian fan comes on and off rapidly like it's trying to turn on but doesnt. I've had it also throw an error on FM100s. Not sure if this is related but it seemed like it may be relevant. Best of luck. Tyrone Houck Oregon Solarworks LLC LRT #076 541-787-1366 tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com On Sat, Nov 9, 2024, 12:40 PM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Greetings Wrenches, > > Wondering if any of you have successfully paired the new Powerflo16 with a > GS8048-A yet? There is no reason it shouldn't work yet I've unsuccessfully > been to a customer's site three times now without a fix. The Radian setup > had been in use with an FLA Trojan pack for years till their demise due to > the client unknowingly turned off the AC input source to keep them charged > for his backup system lacking PV. Network is too far away therefore I > didn't have Optics otherwise I would have caught it. Have not ruled out > that there may have been another fault with the Radian before all this but > the AC input seemed most logical and was known to be turned off by accident > previously. > > Upon closing the Powerflo battery breaker to inverter the Mate3s lights up > momentarily while briefly receiving full voltage but then DC voltage sinks > to around 2-18vdc then either trips the breaker on the Powerflo16 or lights > up the fault indicator. Spoke with Midnite support and they recommended a > workaround to the BMS pre-charge boot up process but that didn't resolve > the issue either. I originally thought it must be a failed Spare215 power > supply board but after swapping there was no effect. Next return trip I > brought a Rosie with me and everything powered up just fine so I then > figured it would be the Spare 204 board stack but had the same exact effect > when I tried that swap today. My next step is returning to swap the > Spare-205 power control modules but first I'm going to unbox another > Powerflo16 at my shop and pair it with a brand new Radian that has not yet > been cannibalized. I've installed 42 Radians and only had two with failed > Spare-205 control modules but each time it was a similar outcome with them > being the last thing I swapped to success. > > I'm thinking it must be a failed Spare-205 but since the Powerflo has only > been shipping for a couple months I just wanted to run this by the group to > see how many have successfully paired these two components at this point. > The Radian is still under warranty but that seems pretty meaningless at > this point. One way or another this job is going to be a loss at this point > but oddly still having fun working through a new head scratcher. > > Thanks for any insight, Nick > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Sat Nov 9 16:32:52 2024 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2024 13:32:52 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] More Issues with Parallel Sol-Ark 15K System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We've noticed a compatability issue with the limitless 15k units and the newest incarnation of the same(limitless 15k) inverter(additional circuitry in the wiring compartment associated with the pv inputs is the one way I'm aware of to tell the difference)..the older units and the newer units don't seem to play nice with each other though they work fine independently. The problem we had was one was throwing an arc fault error and the other parallel faulting in response. The ultimate fix was replacing the older one with a newer one to match. Not sure if that's what is happening at your site but after extensive troubleshooting our conclusion was one inverter was sensing something in the other inverter. May be worth checking to see if they are all the exact same hardware. Good luck. On Sat, Nov 9, 2024, 8:46 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I agree with that diagnosis. I did a visual inspection of the boards and > ribbon cables, and everything seems to be okay. It's strange that the > inverter worked fine in standalone mode. That points to something in the > paralleling circuitry or software. Getting past Tier 1 tech support can be > agonizing, but at least I have an established case now. As a customer > service gesture, I'm prepared to take a new unit off my shelf and fight > with Sol-Ark later to get this system back up and running as the quad setup > that my customer purchased. This should have been a clear cut RMA by Tier 1 > support in my opinion. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Sat, Nov 9, 2024 at 11:33 AM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> Jason, >> Everything points to a internal issue maybe with a CT, ribbon connection >> or just a bad board, regardless a new inverter is the key and solark should >> really want to investigate the issue themselves anyway. >> Fun times >> >> On Sat, Nov 9, 2024, 7:16 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I wrote in another thread about an off-grid quad Sol-Ark system that was >>> shutting down due to parallel stop when one of the four inverters >>> experienced a DC PV fault, and how that shutdown is far from ideal. The >>> same system is down once again, this time due to an AC fault code. >>> >>> The homeowner started getting repeated F18 and F34 AC overcurrent faults >>> on one of the slave inverters. This, in turn, shut the entire system down >>> due to parallel stop faults (F41). None of the other units had AC >>> overcurrent faults, and the load is nowhere near requiring all four >>> inverters for even the most demanding circumstances. It was designed this >>> way for redundancy, which I am quickly finding out is not Sol-Ark's strong >>> suit. >>> >>> To diagnose the issue remotely, I had the owner turn off all four load >>> breakers, all DC PV input, and the AC microinverter input on the GEN >>> terminals. I had them restart everything (several times). Every time, the >>> same inverter would have repeated AC overcurrent faults, and the others >>> would have parallel system faults. Since there were no loads connected by >>> virtue of the load breakers being open, I suspected this had to be an >>> internal fault. >>> >>> I went to the site, and Sol-Ark Tier 1 tech support had me shut off all >>> inverters and take the suspect inverter out of parallel operation mode. As >>> a standalone master it was able to power up and support the entire house >>> load without issue. Then we reprogrammed it for parallel operation again >>> and turned everything back on. We were unable to stay on the phone long >>> enough to determine if this was successful, but ultimately, the fault >>> returned. I was told to call and ask for Tier 2 next time if it happened >>> again, which I intend to do on Monday. At this point, the issue can only be >>> internal to the unit, and I intend to demand warranty replacement of >>> suspect components or the whole unit. >>> >>> I had to get the system running, so I wanted to take the bad inverter >>> out of the parallel system. I was hoping that simply shutting it down would >>> work. This is the third of 4 inverters in the Modbus chain. When turning it >>> off completely (all AC and DC switches disconnected), the 4th inverter >>> would fault, presumably because the Modbus signal was not being relayed, >>> but inverters #1 and #2 worked fine. However, I wanted #4 to also continue >>> working while taking #3 out of service. So then I turned on the battery >>> disconnect for #3 but left it in the off mode by not pressing the on/off >>> button, thinking that it would allow relay of the Modbus signal from #2 to >>> #4. That allowed the system to work momentarily, but then everything >>> faulted out due to parallel system stop. In other words, I was going to >>> have to physically take #3 out of the Modbus daisy chain to make this work. >>> >>> Of course, I didn't have a long enough Cat5 cable with me, nor a Cat5 >>> splice connector. So I had to rig something, which I did successfully to >>> jumper from #2 to #4. But when I turned everything back on, #4 still would >>> not work. I eventually realized that you have to change the Modbus address >>> from 04 to 03 in the settings. Apparently, the addresses need to be >>> sequential for it to work. Once I did this, I was able to get the system up >>> and running again as a triple-inverter parallel setup. No faults were >>> observed. So the theory was proven that #3 has an issue internally. >>> >>> >>> Anyway, bottom line, I am disappointed at how one inverter fault takes >>> down the whole paralleled system, and also how taking a faulted inverter >>> out of the system requires physical and programming changes. Turning it off >>> should be sufficient. This is a very poor way to implement a parallel >>> system that should provide the peace of mind that redundancy implies. Now I >>> have a customer who thought they were getting a system with failsafe >>> redundancy that actually requires a service call every time one of the >>> paralleled units decides it does not want to play nicely with others. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Sat Nov 9 20:31:43 2024 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2024 19:31:43 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Powerflo16 with Radian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, I just finished an Outback Radian on two Powerflo16 batteries. The Midnight Powerflo16 does have a pre-charge circuit. My experience with other batteries that do not have a pre-charge resistor control circuit helped me formulate a boot up sequence. And it works for the powerflo16 just as well. First, I turn on the breaker of the charge controller and then start the battery by turning on its breaker(s) and holding the start switch down for 3 to 5 seconds. The battery(s) will boot up. Once the charge controller wakes up, it’ll start supplying current. Then, I turn on each breaker of each half of the radian(s) with a little pause between each breaker. Speaking of open loop! What are y’all using for LiFePO4 charging parameters? I have been using 3.45 per cell for Absorb and 3.40 for Float. What are you using for timers, etc? I should make a separate thread. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On Nov 9, 2024, at 2:41 PM, Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Greetings Wrenches, > > Wondering if any of you have successfully paired the new Powerflo16 with a GS8048-A yet? There is no reason it shouldn't work yet I've unsuccessfully been to a customer's site three times now without a fix. The Radian setup had been in use with an FLA Trojan pack for years till their demise due to the client unknowingly turned off the AC input source to keep them charged for his backup system lacking PV. Network is too far away therefore I didn't have Optics otherwise I would have caught it. Have not ruled out that there may have been another fault with the Radian before all this but the AC input seemed most logical and was known to be turned off by accident previously. > > Upon closing the Powerflo battery breaker to inverter the Mate3s lights up momentarily while briefly receiving full voltage but then DC voltage sinks to around 2-18vdc then either trips the breaker on the Powerflo16 or lights up the fault indicator. Spoke with Midnite support and they recommended a workaround to the BMS pre-charge boot up process but that didn't resolve the issue either. I originally thought it must be a failed Spare215 power supply board but after swapping there was no effect. Next return trip I brought a Rosie with me and everything powered up just fine so I then figured it would be the Spare 204 board stack but had the same exact effect when I tried that swap today. My next step is returning to swap the Spare-205 power control modules but first I'm going to unbox another Powerflo16 at my shop and pair it with a brand new Radian that has not yet been cannibalized. I've installed 42 Radians and only had two with failed Spare-205 control modules but each time it was a similar outcome with them being the last thing I swapped to success. > > I'm thinking it must be a failed Spare-205 but since the Powerflo has only been shipping for a couple months I just wanted to run this by the group to see how many have successfully paired these two components at this point. The Radian is still under warranty but that seems pretty meaningless at this point. One way or another this job is going to be a loss at this point but oddly still having fun working through a new head scratcher. > > Thanks for any insight, Nick > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Battery SOC Map 241002.png Type: image/png Size: 561934 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Sat Nov 9 22:48:25 2024 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2024 21:48:25 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Powerflo16 with Radian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <79C6390E-3F7D-48F2-91F7-CAD87723A4DF@mavericksolar.com> Nick Upon further review of your message (you don’t have PV input). Try turning on just one inverter 175A (half the inverter) prior to battery boot up, then turn on the other half as soon as it does boot. That will split the start up surge. Also may identify if an inverter module is working. Also, I thought the Mate would not boot if Power Supply board / Spare 215 was bad, especially without a charge controller to back feed power to the hub, etc. Lastly, on other brand combos, I have used a lifepo4 battery charger as a go between (like on a dark start situation). Connect the battery charger to the battery. Plug it into AC power not related to the inverter. Once the charger saturated/ started charging, turn on inverter breakers individually. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On Nov 9, 2024, at 2:41 PM, Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Greetings Wrenches, > > Wondering if any of you have successfully paired the new Powerflo16 with a GS8048-A yet? There is no reason it shouldn't work yet I've unsuccessfully been to a customer's site three times now without a fix. The Radian setup had been in use with an FLA Trojan pack for years till their demise due to the client unknowingly turned off the AC input source to keep them charged for his backup system lacking PV. Network is too far away therefore I didn't have Optics otherwise I would have caught it. Have not ruled out that there may have been another fault with the Radian before all this but the AC input seemed most logical and was known to be turned off by accident previously. > > Upon closing the Powerflo battery breaker to inverter the Mate3s lights up momentarily while briefly receiving full voltage but then DC voltage sinks to around 2-18vdc then either trips the breaker on the Powerflo16 or lights up the fault indicator. Spoke with Midnite support and they recommended a workaround to the BMS pre-charge boot up process but that didn't resolve the issue either. I originally thought it must be a failed Spare215 power supply board but after swapping there was no effect. Next return trip I brought a Rosie with me and everything powered up just fine so I then figured it would be the Spare 204 board stack but had the same exact effect when I tried that swap today. My next step is returning to swap the Spare-205 power control modules but first I'm going to unbox another Powerflo16 at my shop and pair it with a brand new Radian that has not yet been cannibalized. I've installed 42 Radians and only had two with failed Spare-205 control modules but each time it was a similar outcome with them being the last thing I swapped to success. > > I'm thinking it must be a failed Spare-205 but since the Powerflo has only been shipping for a couple months I just wanted to run this by the group to see how many have successfully paired these two components at this point. The Radian is still under warranty but that seems pretty meaningless at this point. One way or another this job is going to be a loss at this point but oddly still having fun working through a new head scratcher. > > Thanks for any insight, Nick > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sun Nov 10 09:26:32 2024 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2024 09:26:32 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OB Charging/Comms Issues In-Reply-To: <36b8ebf3-b591-46af-9cf1-8e369c5d2919@solarray.com> References: <36b8ebf3-b591-46af-9cf1-8e369c5d2919@solarray.com> Message-ID: <63aca36c41314803dac851416a20b91b@redwoodalliance.org> Hi Ray, Off grid solar has been pushed way back. Back in the day, I would set up systems and walk away (until the client destroyed their first set of batteries). After that, the systems would run smoothly. The equipment did not need to be updated or replaced. Now, battery based systems are only for backup, for people with lots of money. With the price of lithium batteries, it makes sense to me to stick with AGM. They may only last half as long, but they are less than half the price. The lead is reusable. Their environmental impact is far less. Cheers, Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ --- On 2024-11-08 16:04, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > Just goes to my rule for off grid, forget the comms. Regardless of the > Manu, I've been advised during trouble shooting to disconnect the > comms, and it almost always fixes the problem. Honestly, I forgot what > comms were supposed to fix in the first place. I almost never even > bother now. Mate 3 with HUB? Only if I have to. Midnite "Follow Me"? > pulled the cables. All my systems are open communication. Even > battery to battery comms causes problems. > > Oh, and I recently had to buy a $400 PC laptop, just to do trouble > shooting, and firmware updates on batteries. I don't miss the acid > burns in my jeans, but I'm not sure if I like my job as much, in the > twilight years of my off grid career. I'm spending as much time > installing, as I am babysitting LiPO4 batteries that are supposed to > operate maintenance free for 8000 cycles. Yeah. Just yeah. I'd be > amazed at 800 cycles without having to truck out there to F with them. > Haven't seen a brand yet that has worked without some kind of trouble. > Blue Ion, Simpliphi, Fortress, Homegrid, EG4..... major trouble with > everyone of them. Complete system shutdowns. Rotting food in the > fridge. > > I've heard acid burned jeans are coming back in fashion..... > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > On 11/8/2024 1:42 PM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> Hey wrenchers, >> >> I have an off-grid customer with a pair of VFX 3648 inverters, a FM >> 100 charge controller and two eVault classics in open loop. The issue >> is when the generator is charging the batteries, incoming amperage is >> all over the place and periodically, gradually drops to 0A then ramps >> back up. This is creating really long generator run times. When I turn >> off PV input, same results. When I turn off both PV input and charge >> controller output (turning off the CC entirely) the inverters hold a >> steady charge. If I remove the charge controllers comms cable from the >> hub, they both play nicely and charge cooperatively. This obviously >> sounds like a communication issue, but unfortunately, without the help >> of OB tech support, I am left speculating. I have checked all settings >> with a fine comb and nothing looks to be out of place. Has anyone >> experienced something similar to this? >> >> Thanks! >> >> Chris Sparadeo >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Nov 10 09:27:15 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2024 09:27:15 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] More Issues with Parallel Sol-Ark 15K System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is very valuable information. The homeowner sourced these four inverters from someone else before I got involved. Three of the four inverters have a Savant sticker on the front of them. The one without the Savant sticker is NOT the one that is having the problem, but it is adjacent to it. The stickerless inverter is #2 (first slave), but the problem inverter is #3 (second slave). I am assuming the three with the stickers are the same (#1, #3, and #4), but perhaps the one without the sticker has different hardware. I will do a visual inspection the next time I am out there. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sat, Nov 9, 2024 at 4:33 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We've noticed a compatability issue with the limitless 15k units and the > newest incarnation of the same(limitless 15k) inverter(additional circuitry > in the wiring compartment associated with the pv inputs is the one way I'm > aware of to tell the difference)..the older units and the newer units don't > seem to play nice with each other though they work fine independently. The > problem we had was one was throwing an arc fault error and the other > parallel faulting in response. The ultimate fix was replacing the older one > with a newer one to match. Not sure if that's what is happening at your > site but after extensive troubleshooting our conclusion was one inverter > was sensing something in the other inverter. May be worth checking to see > if they are all the exact same hardware. > Good luck. > > On Sat, Nov 9, 2024, 8:46 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I agree with that diagnosis. I did a visual inspection of the boards and >> ribbon cables, and everything seems to be okay. It's strange that the >> inverter worked fine in standalone mode. That points to something in the >> paralleling circuitry or software. Getting past Tier 1 tech support can be >> agonizing, but at least I have an established case now. As a customer >> service gesture, I'm prepared to take a new unit off my shelf and fight >> with Sol-Ark later to get this system back up and running as the quad setup >> that my customer purchased. This should have been a clear cut RMA by Tier 1 >> support in my opinion. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Sat, Nov 9, 2024 at 11:33 AM Jerry Shafer >> wrote: >> >>> Jason, >>> Everything points to a internal issue maybe with a CT, ribbon >>> connection or just a bad board, regardless a new inverter is the key and >>> solark should really want to investigate the issue themselves anyway. >>> Fun times >>> >>> On Sat, Nov 9, 2024, 7:16 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I wrote in another thread about an off-grid quad Sol-Ark system that >>>> was shutting down due to parallel stop when one of the four inverters >>>> experienced a DC PV fault, and how that shutdown is far from ideal. The >>>> same system is down once again, this time due to an AC fault code. >>>> >>>> The homeowner started getting repeated F18 and F34 AC overcurrent >>>> faults on one of the slave inverters. This, in turn, shut the entire system >>>> down due to parallel stop faults (F41). None of the other units had AC >>>> overcurrent faults, and the load is nowhere near requiring all four >>>> inverters for even the most demanding circumstances. It was designed this >>>> way for redundancy, which I am quickly finding out is not Sol-Ark's strong >>>> suit. >>>> >>>> To diagnose the issue remotely, I had the owner turn off all four load >>>> breakers, all DC PV input, and the AC microinverter input on the GEN >>>> terminals. I had them restart everything (several times). Every time, the >>>> same inverter would have repeated AC overcurrent faults, and the others >>>> would have parallel system faults. Since there were no loads connected by >>>> virtue of the load breakers being open, I suspected this had to be an >>>> internal fault. >>>> >>>> I went to the site, and Sol-Ark Tier 1 tech support had me shut off all >>>> inverters and take the suspect inverter out of parallel operation mode. As >>>> a standalone master it was able to power up and support the entire house >>>> load without issue. Then we reprogrammed it for parallel operation again >>>> and turned everything back on. We were unable to stay on the phone long >>>> enough to determine if this was successful, but ultimately, the fault >>>> returned. I was told to call and ask for Tier 2 next time if it happened >>>> again, which I intend to do on Monday. At this point, the issue can only be >>>> internal to the unit, and I intend to demand warranty replacement of >>>> suspect components or the whole unit. >>>> >>>> I had to get the system running, so I wanted to take the bad inverter >>>> out of the parallel system. I was hoping that simply shutting it down would >>>> work. This is the third of 4 inverters in the Modbus chain. When turning it >>>> off completely (all AC and DC switches disconnected), the 4th inverter >>>> would fault, presumably because the Modbus signal was not being relayed, >>>> but inverters #1 and #2 worked fine. However, I wanted #4 to also continue >>>> working while taking #3 out of service. So then I turned on the battery >>>> disconnect for #3 but left it in the off mode by not pressing the on/off >>>> button, thinking that it would allow relay of the Modbus signal from #2 to >>>> #4. That allowed the system to work momentarily, but then everything >>>> faulted out due to parallel system stop. In other words, I was going to >>>> have to physically take #3 out of the Modbus daisy chain to make this work. >>>> >>>> Of course, I didn't have a long enough Cat5 cable with me, nor a Cat5 >>>> splice connector. So I had to rig something, which I did successfully to >>>> jumper from #2 to #4. But when I turned everything back on, #4 still would >>>> not work. I eventually realized that you have to change the Modbus address >>>> from 04 to 03 in the settings. Apparently, the addresses need to be >>>> sequential for it to work. Once I did this, I was able to get the system up >>>> and running again as a triple-inverter parallel setup. No faults were >>>> observed. So the theory was proven that #3 has an issue internally. >>>> >>>> >>>> Anyway, bottom line, I am disappointed at how one inverter fault takes >>>> down the whole paralleled system, and also how taking a faulted inverter >>>> out of the system requires physical and programming changes. Turning it off >>>> should be sufficient. This is a very poor way to implement a parallel >>>> system that should provide the peace of mind that redundancy implies. Now I >>>> have a customer who thought they were getting a system with failsafe >>>> redundancy that actually requires a service call every time one of the >>>> paralleled units decides it does not want to play nicely with others. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Sun Nov 10 11:12:10 2024 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2024 08:12:10 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] More Issues with Parallel Sol-Ark 15K System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: SolArk tech support told us that the PV array ground shouldn’t land on the inverter ground bar. But instead should be run to its own local electrode. or if you're grid tied it can land on the ground bar at the Main AC On Sun, Nov 10, 2024 at 6:27 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > This is very valuable information. The homeowner sourced these four > inverters from someone else before I got involved. Three of the four > inverters have a Savant sticker on the front of them. The one without the > Savant sticker is NOT the one that is having the problem, but it is > adjacent to it. The stickerless inverter is #2 (first slave), but the > problem inverter is #3 (second slave). I am assuming the three with the > stickers are the same (#1, #3, and #4), but perhaps the one without the > sticker has different hardware. I will do a visual inspection the next time > I am out there. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Sat, Nov 9, 2024 at 4:33 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> We've noticed a compatability issue with the limitless 15k units and the >> newest incarnation of the same(limitless 15k) inverter(additional circuitry >> in the wiring compartment associated with the pv inputs is the one way I'm >> aware of to tell the difference)..the older units and the newer units don't >> seem to play nice with each other though they work fine independently. The >> problem we had was one was throwing an arc fault error and the other >> parallel faulting in response. The ultimate fix was replacing the older one >> with a newer one to match. Not sure if that's what is happening at your >> site but after extensive troubleshooting our conclusion was one inverter >> was sensing something in the other inverter. May be worth checking to see >> if they are all the exact same hardware. >> Good luck. >> >> On Sat, Nov 9, 2024, 8:46 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I agree with that diagnosis. I did a visual inspection of the boards and >>> ribbon cables, and everything seems to be okay. It's strange that the >>> inverter worked fine in standalone mode. That points to something in the >>> paralleling circuitry or software. Getting past Tier 1 tech support can be >>> agonizing, but at least I have an established case now. As a customer >>> service gesture, I'm prepared to take a new unit off my shelf and fight >>> with Sol-Ark later to get this system back up and running as the quad setup >>> that my customer purchased. This should have been a clear cut RMA by Tier 1 >>> support in my opinion. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Nov 9, 2024 at 11:33 AM Jerry Shafer >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Jason, >>>> Everything points to a internal issue maybe with a CT, ribbon >>>> connection or just a bad board, regardless a new inverter is the key and >>>> solark should really want to investigate the issue themselves anyway. >>>> Fun times >>>> >>>> On Sat, Nov 9, 2024, 7:16 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I wrote in another thread about an off-grid quad Sol-Ark system that >>>>> was shutting down due to parallel stop when one of the four inverters >>>>> experienced a DC PV fault, and how that shutdown is far from ideal. The >>>>> same system is down once again, this time due to an AC fault code. >>>>> >>>>> The homeowner started getting repeated F18 and F34 AC overcurrent >>>>> faults on one of the slave inverters. This, in turn, shut the entire system >>>>> down due to parallel stop faults (F41). None of the other units had AC >>>>> overcurrent faults, and the load is nowhere near requiring all four >>>>> inverters for even the most demanding circumstances. It was designed this >>>>> way for redundancy, which I am quickly finding out is not Sol-Ark's strong >>>>> suit. >>>>> >>>>> To diagnose the issue remotely, I had the owner turn off all four load >>>>> breakers, all DC PV input, and the AC microinverter input on the GEN >>>>> terminals. I had them restart everything (several times). Every time, the >>>>> same inverter would have repeated AC overcurrent faults, and the others >>>>> would have parallel system faults. Since there were no loads connected by >>>>> virtue of the load breakers being open, I suspected this had to be an >>>>> internal fault. >>>>> >>>>> I went to the site, and Sol-Ark Tier 1 tech support had me shut off >>>>> all inverters and take the suspect inverter out of parallel operation mode. >>>>> As a standalone master it was able to power up and support the entire house >>>>> load without issue. Then we reprogrammed it for parallel operation again >>>>> and turned everything back on. We were unable to stay on the phone long >>>>> enough to determine if this was successful, but ultimately, the fault >>>>> returned. I was told to call and ask for Tier 2 next time if it happened >>>>> again, which I intend to do on Monday. At this point, the issue can only be >>>>> internal to the unit, and I intend to demand warranty replacement of >>>>> suspect components or the whole unit. >>>>> >>>>> I had to get the system running, so I wanted to take the bad inverter >>>>> out of the parallel system. I was hoping that simply shutting it down would >>>>> work. This is the third of 4 inverters in the Modbus chain. When turning it >>>>> off completely (all AC and DC switches disconnected), the 4th inverter >>>>> would fault, presumably because the Modbus signal was not being relayed, >>>>> but inverters #1 and #2 worked fine. However, I wanted #4 to also continue >>>>> working while taking #3 out of service. So then I turned on the battery >>>>> disconnect for #3 but left it in the off mode by not pressing the on/off >>>>> button, thinking that it would allow relay of the Modbus signal from #2 to >>>>> #4. That allowed the system to work momentarily, but then everything >>>>> faulted out due to parallel system stop. In other words, I was going to >>>>> have to physically take #3 out of the Modbus daisy chain to make this work. >>>>> >>>>> Of course, I didn't have a long enough Cat5 cable with me, nor a Cat5 >>>>> splice connector. So I had to rig something, which I did successfully to >>>>> jumper from #2 to #4. But when I turned everything back on, #4 still would >>>>> not work. I eventually realized that you have to change the Modbus address >>>>> from 04 to 03 in the settings. Apparently, the addresses need to be >>>>> sequential for it to work. Once I did this, I was able to get the system up >>>>> and running again as a triple-inverter parallel setup. No faults were >>>>> observed. So the theory was proven that #3 has an issue internally. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, bottom line, I am disappointed at how one inverter fault takes >>>>> down the whole paralleled system, and also how taking a faulted inverter >>>>> out of the system requires physical and programming changes. Turning it off >>>>> should be sufficient. This is a very poor way to implement a parallel >>>>> system that should provide the peace of mind that redundancy implies. Now I >>>>> have a customer who thought they were getting a system with failsafe >>>>> redundancy that actually requires a service call every time one of the >>>>> paralleled units decides it does not want to play nicely with others. >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Nov 10 12:02:08 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2024 10:02:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] More Issues with Parallel Sol-Ark 15K System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <464E6F71-D55B-48C6-91A7-96B2953A7A8B@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Sun Nov 10 12:07:42 2024 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (Todd Cory) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2024 10:07:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OB Charging/Comms Issues In-Reply-To: <63aca36c41314803dac851416a20b91b@redwoodalliance.org> References: <36b8ebf3-b591-46af-9cf1-8e369c5d2919@solarray.com> <63aca36c41314803dac851416a20b91b@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <193170baf30.284a.4317fda5bda71af373de9c45c94f08a7@finestplanet.com> Once again I'm going to bang the drum for flooded, lead calcium batteries as THE chemistry for grid tied with battery backup systems. You can do your own research but they have exceptionally low self discharge rates, rarely need watering and should last around 30 years. The only negative is that they're heavy.. Why people continue to think lithium ion is some kind of kind of panacea for these situations is nonsensical. There really is no need to reinvent the wheel. On November 10, 2024 7:28:10 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Ray, > Off grid solar has been pushed way back. Back in the day, I would set up > systems and walk away (until the client destroyed their first set of > batteries). After that, the systems would run smoothly. The equipment did > not need to be updated or replaced. > Now, battery based systems are only for backup, for people with lots of money. > With the price of lithium batteries, it makes sense to me to stick with > AGM. They may only last half as long, but they are less than half the > price. The lead is reusable. Their environmental impact is far less. > Cheers, > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > --- > > > > On 2024-11-08 16:04, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: >> Just goes to my rule for off grid, forget the comms. Regardless of the >> Manu, I've been advised during trouble shooting to disconnect the comms, >> and it almost always fixes the problem. Honestly, I forgot what comms were >> supposed to fix in the first place. I almost never even bother now. Mate 3 >> with HUB? Only if I have to. Midnite "Follow Me"? pulled the cables. All >> my systems are open communication. Even battery to battery comms causes >> problems. >> Oh, and I recently had to buy a $400 PC laptop, just to do trouble >> shooting, and firmware updates on batteries. I don't miss the acid burns >> in my jeans, but I'm not sure if I like my job as much, in the twilight >> years of my off grid career. I'm spending as much time installing, as I >> am babysitting LiPO4 batteries that are supposed to operate maintenance >> free for 8000 cycles. Yeah. Just yeah. I'd be amazed at 800 cycles >> without having to truck out there to F with them. Haven't seen a brand yet >> that has worked without some kind of trouble. Blue Ion, Simpliphi, >> Fortress, Homegrid, EG4..... major trouble with everyone of them. Complete >> system shutdowns. Rotting food in the fridge. >> I've heard acid burned jeans are coming back in fashion..... >> Ray Walters >> Remote SolarOn 11/8/2024 1:42 PM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> Hey wrenchers, >>> >>> I have an off-grid customer with a pair of VFX 3648 inverters, a FM 100 >>> charge controller and two eVault classics in open loop. The issue is when >>> the generator is charging the batteries, incoming amperage is all over the >>> place and periodically, gradually drops to 0A then ramps back up. This is >>> creating really long generator run times. When I turn off PV input, same >>> results. When I turn off both PV input and charge controller output >>> (turning off the CC entirely) the inverters hold a steady charge. If I >>> remove the charge controllers comms cable from the hub, they both play >>> nicely and charge cooperatively. This obviously sounds like a communication >>> issue, but unfortunately, without the help of OB tech support, I am left >>> speculating. I have checked all settings with a fine comb and nothing looks >>> to be out of place. Has anyone experienced something similar to this? >>> >>> Thanks! >>> Chris Sparadeo >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: >>> http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There >>> are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List >>> rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Sent with Aqua Mail for Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Sun Nov 10 12:22:59 2024 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jarvis) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2024 11:22:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] More Issues with Parallel Sol-Ark 15K System In-Reply-To: <464E6F71-D55B-48C6-91A7-96B2953A7A8B@gmail.com> References: <464E6F71-D55B-48C6-91A7-96B2953A7A8B@gmail.com> Message-ID: There isn't. It's a cultural thing. All of our Japanese machines have completely different grounding schemes that they want because that is standard in Japan. That's my two cents thank you, -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 (apologies for the brevity and spelling...from my phone) On Sun, Nov 10, 2024, 11:02 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Can someone/s offer up any solid electrical engineering reason for that? > > Makes no sense to me. > > Jay > > On Nov 10, 2024, at 9:12 AM, david quattro via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > SolArk tech support told us that the PV array ground shouldn’t land on the > inverter ground bar. But instead should be run to its own local electrode. > or if you're grid tied it can land on the ground bar at the Main AC > > > > On Sun, Nov 10, 2024 at 6:27 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> This is very valuable information. The homeowner sourced these four >> inverters from someone else before I got involved. Three of the four >> inverters have a Savant sticker on the front of them. The one without the >> Savant sticker is NOT the one that is having the problem, but it is >> adjacent to it. The stickerless inverter is #2 (first slave), but the >> problem inverter is #3 (second slave). I am assuming the three with the >> stickers are the same (#1, #3, and #4), but perhaps the one without the >> sticker has different hardware. I will do a visual inspection the next time >> I am out there. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Sat, Nov 9, 2024 at 4:33 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> We've noticed a compatability issue with the limitless 15k units and the >>> newest incarnation of the same(limitless 15k) inverter(additional circuitry >>> in the wiring compartment associated with the pv inputs is the one way I'm >>> aware of to tell the difference)..the older units and the newer units don't >>> seem to play nice with each other though they work fine independently. The >>> problem we had was one was throwing an arc fault error and the other >>> parallel faulting in response. The ultimate fix was replacing the older one >>> with a newer one to match. Not sure if that's what is happening at your >>> site but after extensive troubleshooting our conclusion was one inverter >>> was sensing something in the other inverter. May be worth checking to see >>> if they are all the exact same hardware. >>> Good luck. >>> >>> On Sat, Nov 9, 2024, 8:46 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I agree with that diagnosis. I did a visual inspection of the boards >>>> and ribbon cables, and everything seems to be okay. It's strange that the >>>> inverter worked fine in standalone mode. That points to something in the >>>> paralleling circuitry or software. Getting past Tier 1 tech support can be >>>> agonizing, but at least I have an established case now. As a customer >>>> service gesture, I'm prepared to take a new unit off my shelf and fight >>>> with Sol-Ark later to get this system back up and running as the quad setup >>>> that my customer purchased. This should have been a clear cut RMA by Tier 1 >>>> support in my opinion. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Nov 9, 2024 at 11:33 AM Jerry Shafer >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Jason, >>>>> Everything points to a internal issue maybe with a CT, ribbon >>>>> connection or just a bad board, regardless a new inverter is the key and >>>>> solark should really want to investigate the issue themselves anyway. >>>>> Fun times >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Nov 9, 2024, 7:16 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I wrote in another thread about an off-grid quad Sol-Ark system that >>>>>> was shutting down due to parallel stop when one of the four inverters >>>>>> experienced a DC PV fault, and how that shutdown is far from ideal. The >>>>>> same system is down once again, this time due to an AC fault code. >>>>>> >>>>>> The homeowner started getting repeated F18 and F34 AC overcurrent >>>>>> faults on one of the slave inverters. This, in turn, shut the entire system >>>>>> down due to parallel stop faults (F41). None of the other units had AC >>>>>> overcurrent faults, and the load is nowhere near requiring all four >>>>>> inverters for even the most demanding circumstances. It was designed this >>>>>> way for redundancy, which I am quickly finding out is not Sol-Ark's strong >>>>>> suit. >>>>>> >>>>>> To diagnose the issue remotely, I had the owner turn off all four >>>>>> load breakers, all DC PV input, and the AC microinverter input on the GEN >>>>>> terminals. I had them restart everything (several times). Every time, the >>>>>> same inverter would have repeated AC overcurrent faults, and the others >>>>>> would have parallel system faults. Since there were no loads connected by >>>>>> virtue of the load breakers being open, I suspected this had to be an >>>>>> internal fault. >>>>>> >>>>>> I went to the site, and Sol-Ark Tier 1 tech support had me shut off >>>>>> all inverters and take the suspect inverter out of parallel operation mode. >>>>>> As a standalone master it was able to power up and support the entire house >>>>>> load without issue. Then we reprogrammed it for parallel operation again >>>>>> and turned everything back on. We were unable to stay on the phone long >>>>>> enough to determine if this was successful, but ultimately, the fault >>>>>> returned. I was told to call and ask for Tier 2 next time if it happened >>>>>> again, which I intend to do on Monday. At this point, the issue can only be >>>>>> internal to the unit, and I intend to demand warranty replacement of >>>>>> suspect components or the whole unit. >>>>>> >>>>>> I had to get the system running, so I wanted to take the bad inverter >>>>>> out of the parallel system. I was hoping that simply shutting it down would >>>>>> work. This is the third of 4 inverters in the Modbus chain. When turning it >>>>>> off completely (all AC and DC switches disconnected), the 4th inverter >>>>>> would fault, presumably because the Modbus signal was not being relayed, >>>>>> but inverters #1 and #2 worked fine. However, I wanted #4 to also continue >>>>>> working while taking #3 out of service. So then I turned on the battery >>>>>> disconnect for #3 but left it in the off mode by not pressing the on/off >>>>>> button, thinking that it would allow relay of the Modbus signal from #2 to >>>>>> #4. That allowed the system to work momentarily, but then everything >>>>>> faulted out due to parallel system stop. In other words, I was going to >>>>>> have to physically take #3 out of the Modbus daisy chain to make this work. >>>>>> >>>>>> Of course, I didn't have a long enough Cat5 cable with me, nor a Cat5 >>>>>> splice connector. So I had to rig something, which I did successfully to >>>>>> jumper from #2 to #4. But when I turned everything back on, #4 still would >>>>>> not work. I eventually realized that you have to change the Modbus address >>>>>> from 04 to 03 in the settings. Apparently, the addresses need to be >>>>>> sequential for it to work. Once I did this, I was able to get the system up >>>>>> and running again as a triple-inverter parallel setup. No faults were >>>>>> observed. So the theory was proven that #3 has an issue internally. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Anyway, bottom line, I am disappointed at how one inverter fault >>>>>> takes down the whole paralleled system, and also how taking a faulted >>>>>> inverter out of the system requires physical and programming changes. >>>>>> Turning it off should be sufficient. This is a very poor way to implement a >>>>>> parallel system that should provide the peace of mind that redundancy >>>>>> implies. Now I have a customer who thought they were getting a system with >>>>>> failsafe redundancy that actually requires a service call every time one of >>>>>> the paralleled units decides it does not want to play nicely with others. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Sun Nov 10 12:59:32 2024 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2024 09:59:32 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Powerflo16 with Radian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Logan, Tyrone and Maverick, Yes I've tried all the things noted so far without any success. Since there is no PV nor controller at the moment I can't test with just a controller alone but after testing with the Rosie I'm quite certain the battery is just fine. Also to be clear, the Mate3s never really boots up, only briefly starts with the dancing lights as the power modules on top of the inverter makes the attempt to start the fans up. I'll test with a fresh out of the box Radian and Powerflo16 then report back what I find. It's got to be one or two of the power modules in the Radian. Had a similar multiple trip repair on one about 9 months ago and even (old) Outback had it being the last component(s) to replace. For those of you that did have success getting warranty parts of Outback, was it by email that you got a response or the 360-435-6030 number? Hope you all are having a relaxing Sunday, Nick On Sat, Nov 9, 2024 at 1:25 PM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Nick > > There are PF16's running open loop with Radians. The PF16 has a precharge > built in. The key is to have the inverter breaker closed, then close the > battery breaker. After that push the BMS power button (3-4 seconds the > display will power up) and the battery will slowly ramp up and do a > precharge before fully starting. > > Reach out to me off the list and I can help you more if the "new" radian > does not work. > > Thanks > Logan > > > > > > On Sat, Nov 9, 2024 at 3:41 PM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Greetings Wrenches, >> >> Wondering if any of you have successfully paired the new Powerflo16 with >> a GS8048-A yet? There is no reason it shouldn't work yet I've >> unsuccessfully been to a customer's site three times now without a fix. The >> Radian setup had been in use with an FLA Trojan pack for years till their >> demise due to the client unknowingly turned off the AC input source to keep >> them charged for his backup system lacking PV. Network is too far away >> therefore I didn't have Optics otherwise I would have caught it. Have not >> ruled out that there may have been another fault with the Radian before all >> this but the AC input seemed most logical and was known to be turned off by >> accident previously. >> >> Upon closing the Powerflo battery breaker to inverter the Mate3s lights >> up momentarily while briefly receiving full voltage but then DC voltage >> sinks to around 2-18vdc then either trips the breaker on the Powerflo16 or >> lights up the fault indicator. Spoke with Midnite support and they >> recommended a workaround to the BMS pre-charge boot up process but that >> didn't resolve the issue either. I originally thought it must be a failed >> Spare215 power supply board but after swapping there was no effect. Next >> return trip I brought a Rosie with me and everything powered up just fine >> so I then figured it would be the Spare 204 board stack but had the same >> exact effect when I tried that swap today. My next step is returning to >> swap the Spare-205 power control modules but first I'm going to unbox >> another Powerflo16 at my shop and pair it with a brand new Radian that has >> not yet been cannibalized. I've installed 42 Radians and only had two with >> failed Spare-205 control modules but each time it was a similar outcome >> with them being the last thing I swapped to success. >> >> I'm thinking it must be a failed Spare-205 but since the Powerflo >> has only been shipping for a couple months I just wanted to run this by the >> group to see how many have successfully paired these two components at this >> point. The Radian is still under warranty but that seems pretty meaningless >> at this point. One way or another this job is going to be a loss at this >> point but oddly still having fun working through a new head scratcher. >> >> Thanks for any insight, Nick >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Sun Nov 10 13:33:23 2024 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2024 10:33:23 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] More Issues with Parallel Sol-Ark 15K System In-Reply-To: References: <464E6F71-D55B-48C6-91A7-96B2953A7A8B@gmail.com> Message-ID: Same with the Midnite AIO. They are very explicit in the instruction manual. On Sun, Nov 10, 2024 at 9:23 AM James Jarvis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > There isn't. It's a cultural thing. All of our Japanese machines have > completely different grounding schemes that they want because that is > standard in Japan. That's my two cents > > thank you, > > -James Jefferson Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > +1-507-454-2727 > > (apologies for the brevity and spelling...from my phone) > > On Sun, Nov 10, 2024, 11:02 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Can someone/s offer up any solid electrical engineering reason for that? >> >> Makes no sense to me. >> >> Jay >> >> On Nov 10, 2024, at 9:12 AM, david quattro via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> SolArk tech support told us that the PV array ground shouldn’t land on >> the inverter ground bar. But instead should be run to its own local >> electrode. or if you're grid tied it can land on the ground bar at the >> Main AC >> >> >> >> On Sun, Nov 10, 2024 at 6:27 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> This is very valuable information. The homeowner sourced these four >>> inverters from someone else before I got involved. Three of the four >>> inverters have a Savant sticker on the front of them. The one without the >>> Savant sticker is NOT the one that is having the problem, but it is >>> adjacent to it. The stickerless inverter is #2 (first slave), but the >>> problem inverter is #3 (second slave). I am assuming the three with the >>> stickers are the same (#1, #3, and #4), but perhaps the one without the >>> sticker has different hardware. I will do a visual inspection the next time >>> I am out there. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Nov 9, 2024 at 4:33 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> We've noticed a compatability issue with the limitless 15k units and >>>> the newest incarnation of the same(limitless 15k) inverter(additional >>>> circuitry in the wiring compartment associated with the pv inputs is the >>>> one way I'm aware of to tell the difference)..the older units and the newer >>>> units don't seem to play nice with each other though they work fine >>>> independently. The problem we had was one was throwing an arc fault error >>>> and the other parallel faulting in response. The ultimate fix was replacing >>>> the older one with a newer one to match. Not sure if that's what is >>>> happening at your site but after extensive troubleshooting our conclusion >>>> was one inverter was sensing something in the other inverter. May be worth >>>> checking to see if they are all the exact same hardware. >>>> Good luck. >>>> >>>> On Sat, Nov 9, 2024, 8:46 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I agree with that diagnosis. I did a visual inspection of the boards >>>>> and ribbon cables, and everything seems to be okay. It's strange that the >>>>> inverter worked fine in standalone mode. That points to something in the >>>>> paralleling circuitry or software. Getting past Tier 1 tech support can be >>>>> agonizing, but at least I have an established case now. As a customer >>>>> service gesture, I'm prepared to take a new unit off my shelf and fight >>>>> with Sol-Ark later to get this system back up and running as the quad setup >>>>> that my customer purchased. This should have been a clear cut RMA by Tier 1 >>>>> support in my opinion. >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Nov 9, 2024 at 11:33 AM Jerry Shafer >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Jason, >>>>>> Everything points to a internal issue maybe with a CT, ribbon >>>>>> connection or just a bad board, regardless a new inverter is the key and >>>>>> solark should really want to investigate the issue themselves anyway. >>>>>> Fun times >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Nov 9, 2024, 7:16 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I wrote in another thread about an off-grid quad Sol-Ark system that >>>>>>> was shutting down due to parallel stop when one of the four inverters >>>>>>> experienced a DC PV fault, and how that shutdown is far from ideal. The >>>>>>> same system is down once again, this time due to an AC fault code. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The homeowner started getting repeated F18 and F34 AC overcurrent >>>>>>> faults on one of the slave inverters. This, in turn, shut the entire system >>>>>>> down due to parallel stop faults (F41). None of the other units had AC >>>>>>> overcurrent faults, and the load is nowhere near requiring all four >>>>>>> inverters for even the most demanding circumstances. It was designed this >>>>>>> way for redundancy, which I am quickly finding out is not Sol-Ark's strong >>>>>>> suit. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To diagnose the issue remotely, I had the owner turn off all four >>>>>>> load breakers, all DC PV input, and the AC microinverter input on the GEN >>>>>>> terminals. I had them restart everything (several times). Every time, the >>>>>>> same inverter would have repeated AC overcurrent faults, and the others >>>>>>> would have parallel system faults. Since there were no loads connected by >>>>>>> virtue of the load breakers being open, I suspected this had to be an >>>>>>> internal fault. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I went to the site, and Sol-Ark Tier 1 tech support had me shut off >>>>>>> all inverters and take the suspect inverter out of parallel operation mode. >>>>>>> As a standalone master it was able to power up and support the entire house >>>>>>> load without issue. Then we reprogrammed it for parallel operation again >>>>>>> and turned everything back on. We were unable to stay on the phone long >>>>>>> enough to determine if this was successful, but ultimately, the fault >>>>>>> returned. I was told to call and ask for Tier 2 next time if it happened >>>>>>> again, which I intend to do on Monday. At this point, the issue can only be >>>>>>> internal to the unit, and I intend to demand warranty replacement of >>>>>>> suspect components or the whole unit. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I had to get the system running, so I wanted to take the bad >>>>>>> inverter out of the parallel system. I was hoping that simply shutting it >>>>>>> down would work. This is the third of 4 inverters in the Modbus chain. When >>>>>>> turning it off completely (all AC and DC switches disconnected), the 4th >>>>>>> inverter would fault, presumably because the Modbus signal was not being >>>>>>> relayed, but inverters #1 and #2 worked fine. However, I wanted #4 to also >>>>>>> continue working while taking #3 out of service. So then I turned on the >>>>>>> battery disconnect for #3 but left it in the off mode by not pressing the >>>>>>> on/off button, thinking that it would allow relay of the Modbus signal from >>>>>>> #2 to #4. That allowed the system to work momentarily, but then everything >>>>>>> faulted out due to parallel system stop. In other words, I was going to >>>>>>> have to physically take #3 out of the Modbus daisy chain to make this work. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Of course, I didn't have a long enough Cat5 cable with me, nor a >>>>>>> Cat5 splice connector. So I had to rig something, which I did successfully >>>>>>> to jumper from #2 to #4. But when I turned everything back on, #4 still >>>>>>> would not work. I eventually realized that you have to change the Modbus >>>>>>> address from 04 to 03 in the settings. Apparently, the addresses need to be >>>>>>> sequential for it to work. Once I did this, I was able to get the system up >>>>>>> and running again as a triple-inverter parallel setup. No faults were >>>>>>> observed. So the theory was proven that #3 has an issue internally. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Anyway, bottom line, I am disappointed at how one inverter fault >>>>>>> takes down the whole paralleled system, and also how taking a faulted >>>>>>> inverter out of the system requires physical and programming changes. >>>>>>> Turning it off should be sufficient. This is a very poor way to implement a >>>>>>> parallel system that should provide the peace of mind that redundancy >>>>>>> implies. Now I have a customer who thought they were getting a system with >>>>>>> failsafe redundancy that actually requires a service call every time one of >>>>>>> the paralleled units decides it does not want to play nicely with others. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>>>>> try the other: >>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Nov 10 13:41:06 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2024 11:41:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Powerflo16 with Radian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <389BE283-81F4-4404-BC67-D879930A5AFC@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Sun Nov 10 14:08:24 2024 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2024 09:08:24 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] More Issues with Parallel Sol-Ark 15K System In-Reply-To: References: <464E6F71-D55B-48C6-91A7-96B2953A7A8B@gmail.com> Message-ID: Aloha All, >From the Midnite Manual: Page 3 Solar PV+/PV- are UNGROUNDED. Note, you may ground PV Racking/Mounts, but doing so directly to the MIDNITE will likely result in damage in the case of a direct lightning strike to the PV array. Ground the PV racking directly to earth ground. Page 11 It is required per code in the US and Canada to ground the mounting frame from the PV array to an external grounding system. >From the Sol-Ark 15K Manual Page 5 Solar PV+/PV- are UNGROUNDED. Note, you may ground PV Racking/Mounts, but doing so directly to the Sol-Ark will likely result in damage in the case of a direct lightning strike to the PV array. Aloha, Lou Russo Owner lou at spreesolarsystems.com Office - 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 On Sun, Nov 10, 2024 at 8:33 AM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Same with the Midnite AIO. They are very explicit in the instruction > manual. > > On Sun, Nov 10, 2024 at 9:23 AM James Jarvis via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> There isn't. It's a cultural thing. All of our Japanese machines have >> completely different grounding schemes that they want because that is >> standard in Japan. That's my two cents >> >> thank you, >> >> -James Jefferson Jarvis >> APRS World, LLC >> +1-507-454-2727 >> >> (apologies for the brevity and spelling...from my phone) >> >> On Sun, Nov 10, 2024, 11:02 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Can someone/s offer up any solid electrical engineering reason for that? >>> >>> >>> Makes no sense to me. >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> On Nov 10, 2024, at 9:12 AM, david quattro via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> SolArk tech support told us that the PV array ground shouldn’t land on >>> the inverter ground bar. But instead should be run to its own local >>> electrode. or if you're grid tied it can land on the ground bar at the >>> Main AC >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Nov 10, 2024 at 6:27 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> This is very valuable information. The homeowner sourced these four >>>> inverters from someone else before I got involved. Three of the four >>>> inverters have a Savant sticker on the front of them. The one without the >>>> Savant sticker is NOT the one that is having the problem, but it is >>>> adjacent to it. The stickerless inverter is #2 (first slave), but the >>>> problem inverter is #3 (second slave). I am assuming the three with the >>>> stickers are the same (#1, #3, and #4), but perhaps the one without the >>>> sticker has different hardware. I will do a visual inspection the next time >>>> I am out there. >>>> >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Nov 9, 2024 at 4:33 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> We've noticed a compatability issue with the limitless 15k units and >>>>> the newest incarnation of the same(limitless 15k) inverter(additional >>>>> circuitry in the wiring compartment associated with the pv inputs is the >>>>> one way I'm aware of to tell the difference)..the older units and the newer >>>>> units don't seem to play nice with each other though they work fine >>>>> independently. The problem we had was one was throwing an arc fault error >>>>> and the other parallel faulting in response. The ultimate fix was replacing >>>>> the older one with a newer one to match. Not sure if that's what is >>>>> happening at your site but after extensive troubleshooting our conclusion >>>>> was one inverter was sensing something in the other inverter. May be worth >>>>> checking to see if they are all the exact same hardware. >>>>> Good luck. >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Nov 9, 2024, 8:46 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I agree with that diagnosis. I did a visual inspection of the boards >>>>>> and ribbon cables, and everything seems to be okay. It's strange that the >>>>>> inverter worked fine in standalone mode. That points to something in the >>>>>> paralleling circuitry or software. Getting past Tier 1 tech support can be >>>>>> agonizing, but at least I have an established case now. As a customer >>>>>> service gesture, I'm prepared to take a new unit off my shelf and fight >>>>>> with Sol-Ark later to get this system back up and running as the quad setup >>>>>> that my customer purchased. This should have been a clear cut RMA by Tier 1 >>>>>> support in my opinion. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Nov 9, 2024 at 11:33 AM Jerry Shafer < >>>>>> jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Jason, >>>>>>> Everything points to a internal issue maybe with a CT, ribbon >>>>>>> connection or just a bad board, regardless a new inverter is the key and >>>>>>> solark should really want to investigate the issue themselves anyway. >>>>>>> Fun times >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Nov 9, 2024, 7:16 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I wrote in another thread about an off-grid quad Sol-Ark system >>>>>>>> that was shutting down due to parallel stop when one of the four inverters >>>>>>>> experienced a DC PV fault, and how that shutdown is far from ideal. The >>>>>>>> same system is down once again, this time due to an AC fault code. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The homeowner started getting repeated F18 and F34 AC overcurrent >>>>>>>> faults on one of the slave inverters. This, in turn, shut the entire system >>>>>>>> down due to parallel stop faults (F41). None of the other units had AC >>>>>>>> overcurrent faults, and the load is nowhere near requiring all four >>>>>>>> inverters for even the most demanding circumstances. It was designed this >>>>>>>> way for redundancy, which I am quickly finding out is not Sol-Ark's strong >>>>>>>> suit. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To diagnose the issue remotely, I had the owner turn off all four >>>>>>>> load breakers, all DC PV input, and the AC microinverter input on the GEN >>>>>>>> terminals. I had them restart everything (several times). Every time, the >>>>>>>> same inverter would have repeated AC overcurrent faults, and the others >>>>>>>> would have parallel system faults. Since there were no loads connected by >>>>>>>> virtue of the load breakers being open, I suspected this had to be an >>>>>>>> internal fault. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I went to the site, and Sol-Ark Tier 1 tech support had me shut off >>>>>>>> all inverters and take the suspect inverter out of parallel operation mode. >>>>>>>> As a standalone master it was able to power up and support the entire house >>>>>>>> load without issue. Then we reprogrammed it for parallel operation again >>>>>>>> and turned everything back on. We were unable to stay on the phone long >>>>>>>> enough to determine if this was successful, but ultimately, the fault >>>>>>>> returned. I was told to call and ask for Tier 2 next time if it happened >>>>>>>> again, which I intend to do on Monday. At this point, the issue can only be >>>>>>>> internal to the unit, and I intend to demand warranty replacement of >>>>>>>> suspect components or the whole unit. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I had to get the system running, so I wanted to take the bad >>>>>>>> inverter out of the parallel system. I was hoping that simply shutting it >>>>>>>> down would work. This is the third of 4 inverters in the Modbus chain. When >>>>>>>> turning it off completely (all AC and DC switches disconnected), the 4th >>>>>>>> inverter would fault, presumably because the Modbus signal was not being >>>>>>>> relayed, but inverters #1 and #2 worked fine. However, I wanted #4 to also >>>>>>>> continue working while taking #3 out of service. So then I turned on the >>>>>>>> battery disconnect for #3 but left it in the off mode by not pressing the >>>>>>>> on/off button, thinking that it would allow relay of the Modbus signal from >>>>>>>> #2 to #4. That allowed the system to work momentarily, but then everything >>>>>>>> faulted out due to parallel system stop. In other words, I was going to >>>>>>>> have to physically take #3 out of the Modbus daisy chain to make this work. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Of course, I didn't have a long enough Cat5 cable with me, nor a >>>>>>>> Cat5 splice connector. So I had to rig something, which I did successfully >>>>>>>> to jumper from #2 to #4. But when I turned everything back on, #4 still >>>>>>>> would not work. I eventually realized that you have to change the Modbus >>>>>>>> address from 04 to 03 in the settings. Apparently, the addresses need to be >>>>>>>> sequential for it to work. Once I did this, I was able to get the system up >>>>>>>> and running again as a triple-inverter parallel setup. No faults were >>>>>>>> observed. So the theory was proven that #3 has an issue internally. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Anyway, bottom line, I am disappointed at how one inverter fault >>>>>>>> takes down the whole paralleled system, and also how taking a faulted >>>>>>>> inverter out of the system requires physical and programming changes. >>>>>>>> Turning it off should be sufficient. This is a very poor way to implement a >>>>>>>> parallel system that should provide the peace of mind that redundancy >>>>>>>> implies. Now I have a customer who thought they were getting a system with >>>>>>>> failsafe redundancy that actually requires a service call every time one of >>>>>>>> the paralleled units decides it does not want to play nicely with others. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>>>>>> try the other: >>>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric Inc > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > CSLB 1116835 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Sun Nov 10 18:08:03 2024 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2024 15:08:03 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Powerflo16 with Radian In-Reply-To: <389BE283-81F4-4404-BC67-D879930A5AFC@gmail.com> References: <389BE283-81F4-4404-BC67-D879930A5AFC@gmail.com> Message-ID: Good afternoon Jay, 16 KWH's when full, appears that my first two shipped at 34-50% SOC. Enjoy your evening, Nick On Sun, Nov 10, 2024 at 10:44 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > How many kWh of battery do you have. > > Jay > > > > On Nov 10, 2024, at 11:00 AM, Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Thanks Logan, Tyrone and Maverick, > > Yes I've tried all the things noted so far without any success. Since > there is no PV nor controller at the moment I can't test with just a > controller alone but after testing with the Rosie I'm quite certain the > battery is just fine. Also to be clear, the Mate3s never really boots up, > only briefly starts with the dancing lights as the power modules on top of > the inverter makes the attempt to start the fans up. > > I'll test with a fresh out of the box Radian and Powerflo16 then report > back what I find. It's got to be one or two of the power modules in the > Radian. Had a similar multiple trip repair on one about 9 months ago and > even (old) Outback had it being the last component(s) to replace. > > For those of you that did have success getting warranty parts of Outback, > was it by email that you got a response or the 360-435-6030 number? > > Hope you all are having a relaxing Sunday, Nick > > > On Sat, Nov 9, 2024 at 1:25 PM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi Nick >> >> There are PF16's running open loop with Radians. The PF16 has a precharge >> built in. The key is to have the inverter breaker closed, then close the >> battery breaker. After that push the BMS power button (3-4 seconds the >> display will power up) and the battery will slowly ramp up and do a >> precharge before fully starting. >> >> Reach out to me off the list and I can help you more if the "new" radian >> does not work. >> >> Thanks >> Logan >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Nov 9, 2024 at 3:41 PM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Greetings Wrenches, >>> >>> Wondering if any of you have successfully paired the new Powerflo16 with >>> a GS8048-A yet? There is no reason it shouldn't work yet I've >>> unsuccessfully been to a customer's site three times now without a fix. The >>> Radian setup had been in use with an FLA Trojan pack for years till their >>> demise due to the client unknowingly turned off the AC input source to keep >>> them charged for his backup system lacking PV. Network is too far away >>> therefore I didn't have Optics otherwise I would have caught it. Have not >>> ruled out that there may have been another fault with the Radian before all >>> this but the AC input seemed most logical and was known to be turned off by >>> accident previously. >>> >>> Upon closing the Powerflo battery breaker to inverter the Mate3s lights >>> up momentarily while briefly receiving full voltage but then DC voltage >>> sinks to around 2-18vdc then either trips the breaker on the Powerflo16 or >>> lights up the fault indicator. Spoke with Midnite support and they >>> recommended a workaround to the BMS pre-charge boot up process but that >>> didn't resolve the issue either. I originally thought it must be a failed >>> Spare215 power supply board but after swapping there was no effect. Next >>> return trip I brought a Rosie with me and everything powered up just fine >>> so I then figured it would be the Spare 204 board stack but had the same >>> exact effect when I tried that swap today. My next step is returning to >>> swap the Spare-205 power control modules but first I'm going to unbox >>> another Powerflo16 at my shop and pair it with a brand new Radian that has >>> not yet been cannibalized. I've installed 42 Radians and only had two with >>> failed Spare-205 control modules but each time it was a similar outcome >>> with them being the last thing I swapped to success. >>> >>> I'm thinking it must be a failed Spare-205 but since the Powerflo >>> has only been shipping for a couple months I just wanted to run this by the >>> group to see how many have successfully paired these two components at this >>> point. The Radian is still under warranty but that seems pretty meaningless >>> at this point. One way or another this job is going to be a loss at this >>> point but oddly still having fun working through a new head scratcher. >>> >>> Thanks for any insight, Nick >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 08:48:05 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2024 06:48:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Powerflo16 with Radian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <63194853-2330-4E9F-951A-496CA95F784C@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Mon Nov 11 09:59:38 2024 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2024 07:59:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] More Issues with Parallel Sol-Ark 15K System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Of course, I didn't have a long enough Cat5 cable with me, nor a Cat5 > splice connector. So I had to rig something, which I did successfully to > jumper from #2 to #4. But when I turned everything back on, #4 still would > not work. I eventually realized that you have to change the Modbus address > from 04 to 03 in the settings. > We experienced the precise problem you had a couple months which eventually lead to trying the above steps. After a frustrating number of C.S. calls and getting bumped between multiple representatives with varying levels of success we ended up getting replacement equipment from Sol-Ark. We first noticed there was an issue when we would make parameters changes to Inverter 1 the troublesome inverter (no. 3) would seemingly at random revert later on. Inverter 3 was also constantly displaying a slightly different battery voltage than its three partner inverters. Once we replaced the equipment sent by Sol-Ark we haven't had a parallel system stop and the parameters remain consistently mapped across all units. Cheers, Sam [image: OnSite Energy] SAM HARALDSON Operations Specialist (406) 551-6135 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 Locally owned and operated since 2012 [image: B Corporation] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 17:22:23 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2024 15:22:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XWPro and SCP Message-ID: <03F0C191-3443-4C1E-855B-B76FC0950DD4@gmail.com> I know this has been discussed before but I couldn’t find what I needed in archives. If I have a single XWpro with 600v controller and all i want to do is some programing can I use the SCP? I just remember there were things the SCP can’t so with the PRO, but I think its in the stacking part and not basic programing, but again, not sure. Or do I need to use the gateway. thanks jay From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Nov 11 19:18:28 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2024 16:18:28 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XWPro and SCP In-Reply-To: <03F0C191-3443-4C1E-855B-B76FC0950DD4@gmail.com> References: <03F0C191-3443-4C1E-855B-B76FC0950DD4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <133332179a7deee8aa625a79f8a8e0b3@sti.net> Is this a new (not installed) or existing XW pro? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-11-11 2:22 pm, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > I know this has been discussed before but I couldn't find what I needed > in archives. > > If I have a single XWpro with 600v controller and all i want to do is > some programing can I use the SCP? > I just remember there were things the SCP can't so with the PRO, but I > think its in the stacking part and not basic programing, but again, not > sure. > > Or do I need to use the gateway. > > thanks > > jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Nov 11 20:28:03 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2024 17:28:03 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XWPro and SCP In-Reply-To: <03F0C191-3443-4C1E-855B-B76FC0950DD4@gmail.com> References: <03F0C191-3443-4C1E-855B-B76FC0950DD4@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay: I just configured a new XW Pro with an old SCP. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Mon, Nov 11, 2024 at 2:23 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > I know this has been discussed before but I couldn’t find what I needed in > archives. > > If I have a single XWpro with 600v controller and all i want to do is some > programing can I use the SCP? > I just remember there were things the SCP can’t so with the PRO, but I > think its in the stacking part and not basic programing, but again, not > sure. > > Or do I need to use the gateway. > > thanks > > jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Nov 11 20:40:59 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2024 17:40:59 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XWPro and SCP In-Reply-To: References: <03F0C191-3443-4C1E-855B-B76FC0950DD4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <747d31395ebc759084c458265ec032f2@sti.net> As long as you use the default grid config this is fine and as long as you do not need the advanced modes for LFP. If you need to change to IEEE xxxx, (offgrid) you need the gateway. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [2]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [3] [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-11-11 5:28 pm, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > Jay: > > I just configured a new XW Pro with an old SCP. > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com [1] > > On Mon, Nov 11, 2024 at 2:23 PM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > >> I know this has been discussed before but I couldn't find what I >> needed in archives. >> >> If I have a single XWpro with 600v controller and all i want to do is >> some programing can I use the SCP? >> I just remember there were things the SCP can't so with the PRO, but I >> think its in the stacking part and not basic programing, but again, >> not sure. >> >> Or do I need to use the gateway. >> >> thanks >> >> jay >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.millersolar.com [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 21:28:31 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2024 19:28:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XWPro and SCP In-Reply-To: <747d31395ebc759084c458265ec032f2@sti.net> References: <747d31395ebc759084c458265ec032f2@sti.net> Message-ID: <46AB716E-5523-49AD-A492-4F5F6455C1A8@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Nov 11 23:29:36 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2024 20:29:36 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEP PVG wiring Message-ID: Friends: I am repairing a site with NEP PVG RSD devices. We will be removing all of the modules and finding out why the system is underperforming and why 2 of the units are not reporting. The quick start guide includes this line: PVG’s PV-lead pairs must be connected to PV modules before connecting homerun cables between RSD device. I find this wording confusing. Homerun cables do not connect between RSD devices, home runs connect to the PV input on an inverter (Soul-Arc in this case). I wish to rail mount the PVG RSD devices, connect the series wiring between these modules and then connect the PV. Can I interconnect the PVG units prior to connecting the PV modules? This sure would make the process easier. Thanks in advance for in any input on working with these units. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Tue Nov 12 10:43:47 2024 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2024 15:43:47 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEP PVG wiring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi William, The RSD installation instructions mirror those of TIGO and APSmart per connection order of PV to RSD first. Best regards, Lloyd Lloyd Hoffstatter, M.S. Applied Solar Energy Director, Sunstruck Consulting lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com 845-657-8132 (office) 914-844-3404 (cell) From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of William Miller via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, November 11, 2024 11:30 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: William Miller Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEP PVG wiring Friends: I am repairing a site with NEP PVG RSD devices. We will be removing all of the modules and finding out why the system is underperforming and why 2 of the units are not reporting. The quick start guide includes this line: PVG’s PV-lead pairs must be connected to PV modules before connecting homerun cables between RSD device. I find this wording confusing. Homerun cables do not connect between RSD devices, home runs connect to the PV input on an inverter (Soul-Arc in this case). I wish to rail mount the PVG RSD devices, connect the series wiring between these modules and then connect the PV. Can I interconnect the PVG units prior to connecting the PV modules? This sure would make the process easier. Thanks in advance for in any input on working with these units. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Jharen.Poole at sol-ark.com Tue Nov 12 12:50:53 2024 From: Jharen.Poole at sol-ark.com (Poole, Jharen) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2024 17:50:53 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] More Issues with Parallel Sol-Ark 15K System Message-ID: Our inverters utilize CANbus communications for establishing parallel operation between multiple Sol-Ark inverters. CANbus communication operates as a serial communication protocol. In this setup each inverter in the setup is linked via a parallel communication cable forming a daisy-chain configuration. If one inverter in the chain experiences a shutdown due to a fault, the communication chain is disrupted. Consequently, the other inverters will also power down when we see this loss, ensuring system protection and safeguarding the customer’s investment. Paralleling must be done at a stage 0 they have to sync and that is done in the pre normal mode, functionality wise having them going into sync is extremely difficult due to timing issues. It's easier to time it from a stage 0 than to do it when one unit is already running. Maintaining synchronization between inverters is critical; if the inverters were to operate out of parallel it can result in conflicts between the operation of inverters and desynchronization of the units. This misalignment can escalate, potentially causing significant damage to one or more inverters and risking harm to other connected equipment. Best Regards, Jharen Poole Applications Engineer II 972-575-8875 [cid:09eb4ba0-f025-49ec-8033-336d60599649] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-glvzpbsr.png Type: image/png Size: 82002 bytes Desc: Outlook-glvzpbsr.png URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Nov 12 23:52:49 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2024 20:52:49 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEP PVG wiring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9bf8ab7cac02e8190045e630e9e10592@mail.gmail.com> Lloyd: Thank you for your reply. That is how I read the instructions for all of the aforementioned MLPE devices. I think there is a flaw in the logic here, at least for the NEP and Tigo products. It is because both manufacturers offer rail or frame mounting options. This is significant for this reason: If you are frame-mounting an MLPE device it is convenient to connect PV leads to the MLPE first and you can easily comply with the instructions. If, however, you are rail-mounting the MLPE it is quite inconvenient to not be allowed to interconnect the MLPE devices before connecting the PV. You really need to complete all of the hardware and wiring infrastructure associate with your mounting system before you bring your modules to the roof. It is very awkward to be juggling a panel on the roof to connect it to rail-mounted MLPE before you are allowed to interconnect the rail-mounted MLPE devices. It is my opinion that if your MLPE devices cannot be interconnected, you should not offer a rail-mount option. It is important that we use proper terminology for these parts of the system. “Interconnecting” and “home-runs” are different things: Interconnecting leads are between devices. Home-runs are leads run between the ends of strings of devices and the terminating equipment. NEP equated these in their quick start guide and this caused confusion. I spoke to George with NEP today about this. I presented this dilemma and he seemed to understand the conflict. George told me the concern is that if an installer connected a PV panel to the series-string output of the PVG units, damage to the MLPE unit could occur. They do have the same MC4 connectors so this is possible. I get the concept that even the dumbest mistakes are possible, but it would be hard to confuse the different connections. The PV inputs are quite short and the series-string connections are abundantly long. Also they are clearly labeled. George told me that as long as the home-runs were left unterminated, the interconnecting leads can be connected prior to connecting PV without risking damage to the PVG units. As always, the devil is in the details. Success is achieved in understanding and dealing with the details. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* Lloyd Hoffstatter [mailto:lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com] *Sent:* Tuesday, November 12, 2024 7:44 AM *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches *Subject:* RE: [RE-wrenches] NEP PVG wiring Hi William, The RSD installation instructions mirror those of TIGO and APSmart per connection order of PV to RSD first. Best regards, Lloyd Lloyd Hoffstatter, M.S. Applied Solar Energy Director, Sunstruck Consulting *lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com * 845-657-8132 (office) 914-844-3404 (cell) *From:* RE-wrenches *On Behalf Of *William Miller via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Monday, November 11, 2024 11:30 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* William Miller *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] NEP PVG wiring Friends: I am repairing a site with NEP PVG RSD devices. We will be removing all of the modules and finding out why the system is underperforming and why 2 of the units are not reporting. The quick start guide includes this line: PVG’s PV-lead pairs must be connected to PV modules before connecting homerun cables between RSD device. I find this wording confusing. Homerun cables do not connect between RSD devices, home runs connect to the PV input on an inverter (Soul-Arc in this case). I wish to rail mount the PVG RSD devices, connect the series wiring between these modules and then connect the PV. Can I interconnect the PVG units prior to connecting the PV modules? This sure would make the process easier. Thanks in advance for in any input on working with these units. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Nov 13 12:45:07 2024 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2024 10:45:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Positive ground tolerant BMS Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, Is anyone aware of a Lithium Iron Phosphate battery system that can operate in a -48V telecom system (positive of battery grounded)? I'm just starting to look around but would appreciate help. Thanks! -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Wed Nov 13 17:54:20 2024 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2024 15:54:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small Pole Mount Brand Recommendations Message-ID: Wrenches, What are your preferred brands for small pole mount installs? I'm talking really small (one or two modules, probably sub 1kw) that a client wishes to install for a DC-direct pump to fill a stock tank. My experience with ground mounts is mostly larger installs from MT Solar and All Earth Renewables. I installed a DPW system in 2019 that we purchased through Soligent but I can't tell if DPW is still manufacturing these or not. I have also serviced a Wattsun system but tracking would be overkill for this use case. - NAZ looks to stock some options from Tamarack and I know they can be trusted - These are ranchers who are super capable people so I may suggest custom fabrication as an option Cheers, Sam [image: OnSite Energy] SAM HARALDSON Operations Specialist (406) 551-6135 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 Locally owned and operated since 2012 [image: B Corporation] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirpal at oregonsolarworks.com Wed Nov 13 18:07:01 2024 From: kirpal at oregonsolarworks.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2024 15:07:01 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small Pole Mount Brand Recommendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jeff Randall at Solar Rackworks in Albuquerque NM. All versions of top of pole and tilt up racks. Quick, and fair pricing too! Kirpal Oregon Solarworks On Wed, Nov 13, 2024, 2:55 PM Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches, > > What are your preferred brands for small pole mount installs? I'm talking > really small (one or two modules, probably sub 1kw) that a client wishes to > install for a DC-direct pump to fill a stock tank. My experience with > ground mounts is mostly larger installs from MT Solar and All Earth > Renewables. I installed a DPW system in 2019 that we purchased through > Soligent but I can't tell if DPW is still manufacturing these or not. I > have also serviced a Wattsun system but tracking would be overkill for this > use case. > > - NAZ looks to stock some options from Tamarack and I know they can be > trusted > - These are ranchers who are super capable people so I may suggest custom > fabrication as an option > > Cheers, > Sam > > [image: OnSite Energy] > > > SAM HARALDSON > Operations Specialist > (406) 551-6135 > 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 > > Locally owned and operated since 2012 > [image: B Corporation] > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Nov 13 18:12:15 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2024 15:12:15 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small Pole Mount Brand Recommendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The one and only TOP rack manufacturer I will work with: https://solarrackworks.com/tablet/index.html jeff at solarrackworks.com William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Wed, Nov 13, 2024 at 2:55 PM Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches, > > What are your preferred brands for small pole mount installs? I'm talking > really small (one or two modules, probably sub 1kw) that a client wishes to > install for a DC-direct pump to fill a stock tank. My experience with > ground mounts is mostly larger installs from MT Solar and All Earth > Renewables. I installed a DPW system in 2019 that we purchased through > Soligent but I can't tell if DPW is still manufacturing these or not. I > have also serviced a Wattsun system but tracking would be overkill for this > use case. > > - NAZ looks to stock some options from Tamarack and I know they can be > trusted > - These are ranchers who are super capable people so I may suggest custom > fabrication as an option > > Cheers, > Sam > > [image: OnSite Energy] > > > SAM HARALDSON > Operations Specialist > (406) 551-6135 > 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 > > Locally owned and operated since 2012 > [image: B Corporation] > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Nov 13 19:21:17 2024 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (GLBCC) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2024 19:21:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small Pole Mount Brand Recommendations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3a5a0ace-d379-4392-b36d-f4cbd9e7e96c@email.android.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Wed Nov 13 19:50:03 2024 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2024 16:50:03 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small Pole Mount Brand Recommendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <36FA9B0B-FCF7-4D3B-94B3-A06CE00523C2@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Wed Nov 13 21:40:27 2024 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (David Palumbo) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2024 21:40:27 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac EcoGen 6kW Message-ID: <076F8115-E965-4AFD-9C0B-A45B16C689DC@gmail.com> I have a Generac EcoGen 6kW LP gas genset in my neighborhood that I’m maintaining. It’s been in service for over 12 years and it has 3,200 hours on it. I see that I missed the recommended 2,500 hour service for changing the alternator rotor brushes. My question is how critical is it that the brushes are changed soon? Would we be risking any damage to the generator by waiting until spring, about another 250 hrs? Dave Palumbo Hyde Park, VT 802-371-8678 text From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Nov 13 22:12:51 2024 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2024 19:12:51 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac EcoGen 6kW In-Reply-To: <076F8115-E965-4AFD-9C0B-A45B16C689DC@gmail.com> References: <076F8115-E965-4AFD-9C0B-A45B16C689DC@gmail.com> Message-ID: David, The brushes are a variable wear item but when they go the unit is down, I have seen brushes worn down to the ribbon in under 2000 hrs and some go twice that and are still OK, As they wear rotor scuff can be an issue plus as they wear the tension gets weaker and its more prone to build up on the rotors and that can result in a false failure, but hey that's just me, I would do it now before the weather sets in and it stops working, Fun Times On Wed, Nov 13, 2024 at 6:47 PM David Palumbo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I have a Generac EcoGen 6kW LP gas genset in my neighborhood that I’m > maintaining. It’s been in service for over 12 years and it has 3,200 hours > on it. > I see that I missed the recommended 2,500 hour service for changing the > alternator rotor brushes. > My question is how critical is it that the brushes are changed soon? Would > we be risking any damage to the generator by waiting until spring, about > another 250 hrs? > > Dave Palumbo > Hyde Park, VT > 802-371-8678 text > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu Nov 14 09:37:48 2024 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2024 09:37:48 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] More Issues with Parallel Sol-Ark 15K System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Can you point to a reference to what stage 0 is?  This is a new term for me. So far, have not installed multiple Sol-Ark inverters at one site.  Thank you, Chris On 11/12/2024 12:50 PM, Poole, Jharen via RE-wrenches wrote: > Our inverters utilize CANbus communications for establishing parallel > operation between multiple Sol-Ark inverters. CANbus communication > operates as a serial communication protocol. In this setup each > inverter in the setup is linked via a parallel communication cable > forming a daisy-chain configuration. If one inverter in the chain > experiences a shutdown due to a fault, the communication chain is > disrupted. Consequently, the other inverters will also power down when > we see this loss, ensuring system protection and safeguarding the > customer’s investment. > > Paralleling must be done at a stage 0 they have to sync and that is > done in the pre normal mode, functionality wise having them going into > sync is extremely difficult due to timing issues. It's easier to time > it from a stage 0 than to do it when one unit is already running. > > Maintaining synchronization between inverters is critical; if the > inverters were to operate out of parallel it can result in conflicts > between the operation of inverters and desynchronization of the units. > This misalignment can escalate, potentially causing significant damage > to one or more inverters and risking harm to other connected equipment. > > > Best Regards, > > Jharen Poole > Applications Engineer II > 972-575-8875 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, PE Entech Engineering, Inc. POB 871 Block Island, RI 02807 401-447-5773 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-glvzpbsr.png Type: image/png Size: 82002 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Nov 14 10:05:29 2024 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2024 15:05:29 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Idiots guide to communication Message-ID: <930DDEBD-91B5-4850-BD64-9D7C9B31467C@solarwork.com> Hey allyall call me a dinosaur! having lost AEE and the yearly dealer training I’m finding it hard to keep up with some of the movement forward in equipment communication and I’m wondering if there’s any recommended idiots guide to the various types of equipment communication that are out there Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Nov 14 10:53:04 2024 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2024 10:53:04 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small Pole Mount Brand Recommendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Does DPW still exist, and still make racking. We need parts for an old DWP roof mount system. It seems that they have been bought and sold. Does anyone have contact information? _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ --- On 2024-11-13 17:54, Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches wrote: > Wrenches, > > What are your preferred brands for small pole mount installs? I'm > talking really small (one or two modules, probably sub 1kw) that a > client wishes to install for a DC-direct pump to fill a stock tank. My > experience with ground mounts is mostly larger installs from MT Solar > and All Earth Renewables. I installed a DPW system in 2019 that we > purchased through Soligent but I can't tell if DPW is still > manufacturing these or not. I have also serviced a Wattsun system but > tracking would be overkill for this use case. > > - NAZ looks to stock some options from Tamarack and I know they can be > trusted > - These are ranchers who are super capable people so I may suggest > custom fabrication as an option > > Cheers, > Sam > > [1] > > SAM HARALDSON > > Operations Specialist > (406) 551-6135 > 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 > Locally owned and operated since 2012 [2] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] https://www.google.com/url?q=https://onsiteenergyinc.com/&source=gmail-html&ust=1677085494759000&usg=AOvVaw2NN36GoM1sjnS4RdC8Svt- [2] https://onsiteenergyinc.com/bcorp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Thu Nov 14 11:02:34 2024 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2024 09:02:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small Pole Mount Brand Recommendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the recommendations, y'all. I hadn't heard of Solar Rack Works and will look that up today. At a glance that's exactly what I was looking for. As for DPW you can still find reference to their company as a wing of Preformed Line Products but I have no idea whether a back stock of parts is still in existence. https://plp.com/?view=article&id=46:dpw-solar&catid=17 Cheers, Sam On Thu, Nov 14, 2024 at 8:53 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Does DPW still exist, and still make racking. We need parts for an old DWP > roof mount system. It seems that they have been bought and sold. Does > anyone have contact information? > > > *Drake Chamberlin* > > *Athens Electric LLC* > > *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* > > > > > > > --- > > > > On 2024-11-13 17:54, Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Wrenches, > > What are your preferred brands for small pole mount installs? I'm talking > really small (one or two modules, probably sub 1kw) that a client wishes to > install for a DC-direct pump to fill a stock tank. My experience with > ground mounts is mostly larger installs from MT Solar and All Earth > Renewables. I installed a DPW system in 2019 that we purchased through > Soligent but I can't tell if DPW is still manufacturing these or not. I > have also serviced a Wattsun system but tracking would be overkill for this > use case. > > - NAZ looks to stock some options from Tamarack and I know they can be > trusted > - These are ranchers who are super capable people so I may suggest custom > fabrication as an option > > Cheers, > Sam > > [image: OnSite Energy] > > > SAM HARALDSON > Operations Specialist > (406) 551-6135 > 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 > Locally owned and operated since 2012 > [image: B Corporation] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Thu Nov 14 11:44:51 2024 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2024 11:44:51 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac EcoGen 6kW In-Reply-To: References: <076F8115-E965-4AFD-9C0B-A45B16C689DC@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dave, I agree with Jerry that they might not make it til spring. If I remember right, they are fairly easy to change. I have a customer with over 8000 hours on his Ecogen 6. I still have many customers still running the 6 but With Multiple brush replacements. His secret of longevity was to change the oil weekly as his recirculating system never worked right. John On Wed, Nov 13, 2024 at 10:13 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > David, The brushes are a variable wear item but when they go the unit is down, I have seen brushes worn down to the ribbon in under 2000 hrs and some go twice that and are still OK, As they wear rotor scuff can be an issue plus as they wear the tension gets weaker and its more prone to build up on the rotors and that can result in a false failure, but hey that's just me, I would do it now before the weather sets in and it stops working, Fun Times On Wed, Nov 13, 2024 at 6:47 PM David Palumbo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I have a Generac EcoGen 6kW LP gas genset in my neighborhood that I’m maintaining. It’s been in service for over 12 years and it has 3,200 hours on it. I see that I missed the recommended500 hour service for changing the alternator rotor brushes. My question is how critical is it that the brushes are changed soon? Would we be risking any damage to the generator by waiting until spring, about another u250 hrs? > >> >> Dave Palumbo >> Hyde Park, VT >> 802-371-8678 text >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Thu Nov 14 12:17:44 2024 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2024 09:17:44 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small Pole Mount Brand Recommendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: While Solar Rackworks and MT Solar both make excellent mounts, for six modules or fewer my favorite is General Specialties . Heavy duty, reasonable price, and easy to assemble. Usually their delivery time will beat the others too. A mount for two PV modules can probably ship via UPS. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar 541-975-3930 On 11/13/2024 2:54 PM, Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches wrote: > Wrenches, > > What are your preferred brands for small pole mount installs?  I'm > talking really small (one or two modules, probably sub 1kw) that a > client wishes to install for a DC-direct pump to fill a stock tank.  > My experience with ground mounts is mostly larger installs from MT > Solar and All Earth Renewables.  I installed a DPW system in 2019 that > we purchased through Soligent but I can't tell if DPW is still > manufacturing these or not.  I have also serviced a Wattsun system but > tracking would be overkill for this use case. > > - NAZ looks to stock some options from Tamarack and I know they can be > trusted > - These are ranchers who are super capable people so I may suggest > custom fabrication as an option > > Cheers, > Sam > > OnSite Energy > > > SAM HARALDSON > Operations Specialist > (406) 551-6135 > 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 > Locally owned and operated since 2012 > B Corporation > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu Nov 14 12:48:40 2024 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2024 12:48:40 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SunPower Warranty and Monitoring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi All, It seemed worthwhile to follow up on this one again. I talked to Enphase again a couple days ago in hopes of finding out what to do about some of the Sunpower systems with arc fault issues. I found out that Enphase is now saying that they will only warranty their own microinverters and nothing else. This is a total flip from what they were telling me at the end of September. Each time I called them, I have called their phone number that is specific to dealing with Sunpower warranty claims. This leaves the question now of: are people with Sunopwer panels and older Sunpower MI's completely out of luck? Does anyone have any other avenue to getting support for Sunpower equipment other than just the MI's that are produced by Enphase? We've got a lot of systems that need the arc fault retrofit. I recall that Sunpower was sending UKT devices, but does anyone out there know exactly what that device was or where to source them? For the handful of retrofits that I did do, we found that there would be at least a few failed solder joints on the diodes inside the module junction boxes in the array. I am wondering if anyone has tried just checking and resoldering these on site to see if that helps with the arc fault problems. Cheers, Dave On Mon, Sep 30, 2024 at 4:50 PM August Goers wrote: > Hi Dave - > > Thanks for following up on this. I spoke with Parker in the sales > department just last Friday 9/27. I explained that I had heard that > monitoring type C and D SolarBridge with Enphase equipment was possible, > but he said there was no way. That said, I think he was just not up to > speed yet - we called tech support today and were told the same as you > reported, that it is possible to monitor the type C and D micros with > Enphase monitoring equipment. > > We also confirmed with Enphase tech support that SunPower modules > with IQ7XS micros should be compatible with the Enphase IQ Gateway or > Combiner 5. Those micros were paired with the smaller 96 cell modules like > the X22-360. > > Clearly there are a lot of nuances to all of the possibilities, so I'm > happy that we're able to chat about it here on Wrenches. I'm also looking > forward to receiving more documentation from Enphase as they sort this all > out. > > Best, > > August > > On Mon, Sep 30, 2024 at 1:32 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> August, >> >> When did you talk to Enphase about monitoring the Sunpower SolarBridge >> micros? It sounds like this whole thing was dropped in their lap about a >> month ago, and they are still working out the kinks. I talked to them again >> today, and I was told that it is possible to monitor the -C and -D micros. >> If you called before last week, they might not have had that sorted out >> yet. I was also told that they will be providing warranty support for the >> panels themselves as well, although I gather that the details are still a >> bit fuzzy. I asked about the arc fault retrofits, and it sounded like they >> planned on supporting that, but again, I don't think the details are fully >> worked out yet. >> >> As of now if you have an existing site with both Sunpower and Enphase, >> the existing Enphase Gateway cannot be made to monitor the Sunpower panels >> (at least yet). But there might be a chance that if you are adding Enphase >> to an existing Sunpower system, you might be able to get one of the >> specially programmed Gateways from the beginning. Those will be able to >> monitor both the Enphase and the Sunpower equipment. >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> On Fri, Sep 27, 2024 at 8:05 PM Dave Tedeyan >> wrote: >> >>> Hi August, >>> >>> That is fascinating that you got told different info. I specifically >>> asked the person I talked to (I did not write down her name though) about >>> the -C and -D microinverters. She said that they had figured out a way to >>> monitor them with their equipment, but they needed some kind of >>> reprogramming. >>> >>> Being that you got told conflicting information, I am going to call them >>> back next week and see if I cannot get a definitive answer. I'll update you >>> all here afterwards. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 27, 2024, 7:04 PM August Goers via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Dave - >>>> >>>> The sales rep, Parker, I spoke with at Enphase said that they don't >>>> have a way of monitoring the SunPower Type C and D micros since those were >>>> manufactured by SolarBridge. They do have an upgrade program where folks >>>> can pay for new IQ7 micros, he said. They also have an upgrade program to >>>> switch over to Enphase monitoring for $699 as you mention, but that is only >>>> for IQ7AS and IQ7HS according to Parker. Were you able to get more info on >>>> the potential monitoring for the C and D units? >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> August >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Sep 27, 2024 at 8:05 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi All, >>>>> >>>>> I talked to Enphase recently about this. They will be providing >>>>> warranty support at least for Sunpower's microinverters. They do not know >>>>> how long Sunpower's monitoring will continue to work. But they have figured >>>>> out a way to use their Gateway to monitor Sunpower's microinverters, even >>>>> the older -C and -D micros. Currently the customer will need to pay a flat >>>>> fee of $699 and Enphase will send them the equipment and then schedule one >>>>> of their techs to come install it. It sounds like it involves some >>>>> reprogramming of the equipment on site. >>>>> >>>>> Then once they can monitor the system, they can provide warranty >>>>> support. People should call Enphase at 510-945-6752 in order to get the >>>>> process started. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Dave >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Sep 3, 2024, 11:56 AM Corey Shalanski via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Jason, >>>>>> >>>>>> Perhaps you also saw this headline: >>>>>> Maxeon to offer warranty support for bankrupt SunPower >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> it doesn't address Enphase equipment separately/specifically - >>>>>> seemingly only Maxeon modules (or ac modules with Enphase units attached). >>>>>> >>>>>> Corey Shalanski >>>>>> Jah Light Solar >>>>>> Portland, Jamaica >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thurs, Aug 15, 2024 at 5:09 PM >>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As another one bites the dust, does anyone have insight into who, if >>>>>>> anyone, will take over the warranty for Sunpower branded Enphase >>>>>>> microinverters and if the SunPower monitoring will continue to work? Or >>>>>>> maybe they can be software updated to work on the Enlighten portal? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And also, would a system be able to be upgraded using Enphase >>>>>>> branded microinverters if the software was made to be compatible? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm sure there are more questions than answers at this point, but I >>>>>>> wanted to get the discussion going. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Thu Nov 14 13:09:31 2024 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2024 11:09:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small Pole Mount Brand Recommendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007f01db36c0$5aa5d600$0ff18200$@OasisMontana.com> Genpro Energy (https://genproenergy.com/) also offers smallish racks where the user provides the pole. FYI. Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Kent via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2024 10:18 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: Kent Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Small Pole Mount Brand Recommendations While Solar Rackworks and MT Solar both make excellent mounts, for six modules or fewer my favorite is General Specialties . Heavy duty, reasonable price, and easy to assemble. Usually their delivery time will beat the others too. A mount for two PV modules can probably ship via UPS. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar 541-975-3930 On 11/13/2024 2:54 PM, Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches wrote: Wrenches, What are your preferred brands for small pole mount installs? I'm talking really small (one or two modules, probably sub 1kw) that a client wishes to install for a DC-direct pump to fill a stock tank. My experience with ground mounts is mostly larger installs from MT Solar and All Earth Renewables. I installed a DPW system in 2019 that we purchased through Soligent but I can't tell if DPW is still manufacturing these or not. I have also serviced a Wattsun system but tracking would be overkill for this use case. - NAZ looks to stock some options from Tamarack and I know they can be trusted - These are ranchers who are super capable people so I may suggest custom fabrication as an option Cheers, Sam SAM HARALDSON Operations Specialist (406) 551-6135 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 Locally owned and operated since 2012 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wstahle at pacific.net Thu Nov 14 13:48:16 2024 From: wstahle at pacific.net (Wallace Stahle) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2024 10:48:16 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small Pole Mount Brand Recommendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have found the Tamarack PGRM robust and flexible up to 4 large modules. Put two on now and add two more later if needed on the same pole top cap and a couple extra mid clamps added. All ships UPS with local sourced 4” Pole and 3” pipe beam to length. Wallace Stahle Future Electric Energy Co PO Box 236 Willits, CA 95490 707-459-0474 Lic.#C10-762093 future at pacific.net > On Nov 13, 2024, at 2:54 PM, Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Wrenches, > > What are your preferred brands for small pole mount installs? I'm talking really small (one or two modules, probably sub 1kw) that a client wishes to install for a DC-direct pump to fill a stock tank. My experience with ground mounts is mostly larger installs from MT Solar and All Earth Renewables. I installed a DPW system in 2019 that we purchased through Soligent but I can't tell if DPW is still manufacturing these or not. I have also serviced a Wattsun system but tracking would be overkill for this use case. > > - NAZ looks to stock some options from Tamarack and I know they can be trusted > - These are ranchers who are super capable people so I may suggest custom fabrication as an option > > Cheers, > Sam > > > SAM HARALDSON > Operations Specialist > (406) 551-6135 > 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 > Locally owned and operated since 2012 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: pgrm-DATA-SHEET-REV3.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 610876 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Nov 14 14:59:16 2024 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2024 11:59:16 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SunPower Warranty and Monitoring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Dave - What are the part numbers of the modules having the problem? Maxeon is warranting the module portion of pretty much all old SunPower modules (except of course the more recent non-Maxeon mods that SunPower was reselling such as Warree and REC) as far as I've been told. You may need to become a Maxeon partner in order to get any service from Maxeon, but if you're dealing with failed solder joints or diodes issues, I would think that's a Maxeon issue. Best, August On Thu, Nov 14, 2024 at 9:49 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi All, > > It seemed worthwhile to follow up on this one again. I talked to Enphase > again a couple days ago in hopes of finding out what to do about some of > the Sunpower systems with arc fault issues. I found out that Enphase is now > saying that they will only warranty their own microinverters and nothing > else. This is a total flip from what they were telling me at the end of > September. Each time I called them, I have called their phone number that > is specific to dealing with Sunpower warranty claims. > > This leaves the question now of: are people with Sunopwer panels and older > Sunpower MI's completely out of luck? Does anyone have any other avenue to > getting support for Sunpower equipment other than just the MI's that are > produced by Enphase? > > We've got a lot of systems that need the arc fault retrofit. I recall that > Sunpower was sending UKT devices, but does anyone out there know exactly > what that device was or where to source them? > For the handful of retrofits that I did do, we found that there would be > at least a few failed solder joints on the diodes inside the module > junction boxes in the array. I am wondering if anyone has tried just > checking and resoldering these on site to see if that helps with the arc > fault problems. > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Mon, Sep 30, 2024 at 4:50 PM August Goers wrote: > >> Hi Dave - >> >> Thanks for following up on this. I spoke with Parker in the sales >> department just last Friday 9/27. I explained that I had heard that >> monitoring type C and D SolarBridge with Enphase equipment was possible, >> but he said there was no way. That said, I think he was just not up to >> speed yet - we called tech support today and were told the same as you >> reported, that it is possible to monitor the type C and D micros with >> Enphase monitoring equipment. >> >> We also confirmed with Enphase tech support that SunPower modules >> with IQ7XS micros should be compatible with the Enphase IQ Gateway or >> Combiner 5. Those micros were paired with the smaller 96 cell modules like >> the X22-360. >> >> Clearly there are a lot of nuances to all of the possibilities, so I'm >> happy that we're able to chat about it here on Wrenches. I'm also looking >> forward to receiving more documentation from Enphase as they sort this all >> out. >> >> Best, >> >> August >> >> On Mon, Sep 30, 2024 at 1:32 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> August, >>> >>> When did you talk to Enphase about monitoring the Sunpower SolarBridge >>> micros? It sounds like this whole thing was dropped in their lap about a >>> month ago, and they are still working out the kinks. I talked to them again >>> today, and I was told that it is possible to monitor the -C and -D micros. >>> If you called before last week, they might not have had that sorted out >>> yet. I was also told that they will be providing warranty support for the >>> panels themselves as well, although I gather that the details are still a >>> bit fuzzy. I asked about the arc fault retrofits, and it sounded like they >>> planned on supporting that, but again, I don't think the details are fully >>> worked out yet. >>> >>> As of now if you have an existing site with both Sunpower and Enphase, >>> the existing Enphase Gateway cannot be made to monitor the Sunpower panels >>> (at least yet). But there might be a chance that if you are adding Enphase >>> to an existing Sunpower system, you might be able to get one of the >>> specially programmed Gateways from the beginning. Those will be able to >>> monitor both the Enphase and the Sunpower equipment. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 27, 2024 at 8:05 PM Dave Tedeyan >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi August, >>>> >>>> That is fascinating that you got told different info. I specifically >>>> asked the person I talked to (I did not write down her name though) about >>>> the -C and -D microinverters. She said that they had figured out a way to >>>> monitor them with their equipment, but they needed some kind of >>>> reprogramming. >>>> >>>> Being that you got told conflicting information, I am going to call >>>> them back next week and see if I cannot get a definitive answer. I'll >>>> update you all here afterwards. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> On Fri, Sep 27, 2024, 7:04 PM August Goers via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Dave - >>>>> >>>>> The sales rep, Parker, I spoke with at Enphase said that they don't >>>>> have a way of monitoring the SunPower Type C and D micros since those were >>>>> manufactured by SolarBridge. They do have an upgrade program where folks >>>>> can pay for new IQ7 micros, he said. They also have an upgrade program to >>>>> switch over to Enphase monitoring for $699 as you mention, but that is only >>>>> for IQ7AS and IQ7HS according to Parker. Were you able to get more info on >>>>> the potential monitoring for the C and D units? >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> August >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Sep 27, 2024 at 8:05 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>> >>>>>> I talked to Enphase recently about this. They will be providing >>>>>> warranty support at least for Sunpower's microinverters. They do not know >>>>>> how long Sunpower's monitoring will continue to work. But they have figured >>>>>> out a way to use their Gateway to monitor Sunpower's microinverters, even >>>>>> the older -C and -D micros. Currently the customer will need to pay a flat >>>>>> fee of $699 and Enphase will send them the equipment and then schedule one >>>>>> of their techs to come install it. It sounds like it involves some >>>>>> reprogramming of the equipment on site. >>>>>> >>>>>> Then once they can monitor the system, they can provide warranty >>>>>> support. People should call Enphase at 510-945-6752 in order to get the >>>>>> process started. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Dave >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Sep 3, 2024, 11:56 AM Corey Shalanski via RE-wrenches < >>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Jason, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Perhaps you also saw this headline: >>>>>>> Maxeon to offer warranty support for bankrupt SunPower >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> it doesn't address Enphase equipment separately/specifically - >>>>>>> seemingly only Maxeon modules (or ac modules with Enphase units attached). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Corey Shalanski >>>>>>> Jah Light Solar >>>>>>> Portland, Jamaica >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thurs, Aug 15, 2024 at 5:09 PM >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As another one bites the dust, does anyone have insight into who, >>>>>>>> if anyone, will take over the warranty for Sunpower branded Enphase >>>>>>>> microinverters and if the SunPower monitoring will continue to work? Or >>>>>>>> maybe they can be software updated to work on the Enlighten portal? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And also, would a system be able to be upgraded using Enphase >>>>>>>> branded microinverters if the software was made to be compatible? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm sure there are more questions than answers at this point, but I >>>>>>>> wanted to get the discussion going. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>>>>> try the other: >>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu Nov 14 15:08:53 2024 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2024 15:08:53 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SunPower Warranty and Monitoring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi August, That is good to know, thanks. These are almost all E20-237 panels with Yukita junction boxes on them. Cheers, Dave On Thu, Nov 14, 2024 at 2:59 PM August Goers wrote: > Hi Dave - > > What are the part numbers of the modules having the problem? Maxeon is > warranting the module portion of pretty much all old SunPower modules > (except of course the more recent non-Maxeon mods that SunPower was > reselling such as Warree and REC) as far as I've been told. You may need to > become a Maxeon partner in order to get any service from Maxeon, but if > you're dealing with failed solder joints or diodes issues, I would think > that's a Maxeon issue. > > Best, > > August > > > > > On Thu, Nov 14, 2024 at 9:49 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> It seemed worthwhile to follow up on this one again. I talked to Enphase >> again a couple days ago in hopes of finding out what to do about some of >> the Sunpower systems with arc fault issues. I found out that Enphase is now >> saying that they will only warranty their own microinverters and nothing >> else. This is a total flip from what they were telling me at the end of >> September. Each time I called them, I have called their phone number that >> is specific to dealing with Sunpower warranty claims. >> >> This leaves the question now of: are people with Sunopwer panels and >> older Sunpower MI's completely out of luck? Does anyone have any other >> avenue to getting support for Sunpower equipment other than just the MI's >> that are produced by Enphase? >> >> We've got a lot of systems that need the arc fault retrofit. I recall >> that Sunpower was sending UKT devices, but does anyone out there know >> exactly what that device was or where to source them? >> For the handful of retrofits that I did do, we found that there would be >> at least a few failed solder joints on the diodes inside the module >> junction boxes in the array. I am wondering if anyone has tried just >> checking and resoldering these on site to see if that helps with the arc >> fault problems. >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> On Mon, Sep 30, 2024 at 4:50 PM August Goers wrote: >> >>> Hi Dave - >>> >>> Thanks for following up on this. I spoke with Parker in the sales >>> department just last Friday 9/27. I explained that I had heard that >>> monitoring type C and D SolarBridge with Enphase equipment was possible, >>> but he said there was no way. That said, I think he was just not up to >>> speed yet - we called tech support today and were told the same as you >>> reported, that it is possible to monitor the type C and D micros with >>> Enphase monitoring equipment. >>> >>> We also confirmed with Enphase tech support that SunPower modules >>> with IQ7XS micros should be compatible with the Enphase IQ Gateway or >>> Combiner 5. Those micros were paired with the smaller 96 cell modules like >>> the X22-360. >>> >>> Clearly there are a lot of nuances to all of the possibilities, so I'm >>> happy that we're able to chat about it here on Wrenches. I'm also looking >>> forward to receiving more documentation from Enphase as they sort this all >>> out. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> August >>> >>> On Mon, Sep 30, 2024 at 1:32 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> August, >>>> >>>> When did you talk to Enphase about monitoring the Sunpower SolarBridge >>>> micros? It sounds like this whole thing was dropped in their lap about a >>>> month ago, and they are still working out the kinks. I talked to them again >>>> today, and I was told that it is possible to monitor the -C and -D micros. >>>> If you called before last week, they might not have had that sorted out >>>> yet. I was also told that they will be providing warranty support for the >>>> panels themselves as well, although I gather that the details are still a >>>> bit fuzzy. I asked about the arc fault retrofits, and it sounded like they >>>> planned on supporting that, but again, I don't think the details are fully >>>> worked out yet. >>>> >>>> As of now if you have an existing site with both Sunpower and Enphase, >>>> the existing Enphase Gateway cannot be made to monitor the Sunpower panels >>>> (at least yet). But there might be a chance that if you are adding Enphase >>>> to an existing Sunpower system, you might be able to get one of the >>>> specially programmed Gateways from the beginning. Those will be able to >>>> monitor both the Enphase and the Sunpower equipment. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> On Fri, Sep 27, 2024 at 8:05 PM Dave Tedeyan >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi August, >>>>> >>>>> That is fascinating that you got told different info. I specifically >>>>> asked the person I talked to (I did not write down her name though) about >>>>> the -C and -D microinverters. She said that they had figured out a way to >>>>> monitor them with their equipment, but they needed some kind of >>>>> reprogramming. >>>>> >>>>> Being that you got told conflicting information, I am going to call >>>>> them back next week and see if I cannot get a definitive answer. I'll >>>>> update you all here afterwards. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Dave >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Sep 27, 2024, 7:04 PM August Goers via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Dave - >>>>>> >>>>>> The sales rep, Parker, I spoke with at Enphase said that they don't >>>>>> have a way of monitoring the SunPower Type C and D micros since those were >>>>>> manufactured by SolarBridge. They do have an upgrade program where folks >>>>>> can pay for new IQ7 micros, he said. They also have an upgrade program to >>>>>> switch over to Enphase monitoring for $699 as you mention, but that is only >>>>>> for IQ7AS and IQ7HS according to Parker. Were you able to get more info on >>>>>> the potential monitoring for the C and D units? >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>>>> August >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Sep 27, 2024 at 8:05 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I talked to Enphase recently about this. They will be providing >>>>>>> warranty support at least for Sunpower's microinverters. They do not know >>>>>>> how long Sunpower's monitoring will continue to work. But they have figured >>>>>>> out a way to use their Gateway to monitor Sunpower's microinverters, even >>>>>>> the older -C and -D micros. Currently the customer will need to pay a flat >>>>>>> fee of $699 and Enphase will send them the equipment and then schedule one >>>>>>> of their techs to come install it. It sounds like it involves some >>>>>>> reprogramming of the equipment on site. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Then once they can monitor the system, they can provide warranty >>>>>>> support. People should call Enphase at 510-945-6752 in order to get the >>>>>>> process started. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> Dave >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Sep 3, 2024, 11:56 AM Corey Shalanski via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jason, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Perhaps you also saw this headline: >>>>>>>> Maxeon to offer warranty support for bankrupt SunPower >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> it doesn't address Enphase equipment separately/specifically - >>>>>>>> seemingly only Maxeon modules (or ac modules with Enphase units attached). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Corey Shalanski >>>>>>>> Jah Light Solar >>>>>>>> Portland, Jamaica >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thurs, Aug 15, 2024 at 5:09 PM < >>>>>>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As another one bites the dust, does anyone have insight into who, >>>>>>>>> if anyone, will take over the warranty for Sunpower branded Enphase >>>>>>>>> microinverters and if the SunPower monitoring will continue to work? Or >>>>>>>>> maybe they can be software updated to work on the Enlighten portal? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> And also, would a system be able to be upgraded using Enphase >>>>>>>>> branded microinverters if the software was made to be compatible? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm sure there are more questions than answers at this point, but >>>>>>>>> I wanted to get the discussion going. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>>>>>> try the other: >>>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>>>>> try the other: >>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Thu Nov 14 16:27:47 2024 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2024 13:27:47 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Pumps Message-ID: Wrenches, Any recommendations for a "high voltage" Array Direct surface pump. Pumping from a creek. 150' head. Looking for as many gpm's as possible. Large array is fine. If I remember correctly, Dankoff pumps are fairly low voltage. Thanks, Michael -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at greenwired.com Thu Nov 14 16:31:24 2024 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew Perkins) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2024 13:31:24 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Solar_Pumps?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1932c968dce.ebae82a8539387.6566961110869781649@greenwired.com> You can do up to 300VDC off Grundfos SQF series. I know they have a 11 and maybe a 20 for the highest gpm at that height.  Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com        Leave a review! ---- On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 13:27:47 -0800 re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org wrote ---- Wrenches, Any recommendations for a "high voltage"  Array Direct surface pump. Pumping from a creek. 150' head. Looking for as many gpm's as possible. Large array is fine. If I remember correctly, Dankoff pumps are fairly low voltage.  Thanks, Michael -- Michael Morningstar  Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: New_logo.png Type: image/png Size: 26518 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: qrcode_115305565_7d41abb3d8a91304ef1c1ceb56edaa4a.png Type: image/png Size: 115110 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Nov 14 17:29:24 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2024 15:29:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Pumps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <62F909BF-807E-4C09-85A6-D425BB746AC2@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Thu Nov 14 17:34:27 2024 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2024 14:34:27 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Pumps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41d6c6c7-58f5-443e-8735-63ff878c67df@coveoregon.com> The SunPumps SCS pump should do what you need. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar 541-975-3930 On 11/14/2024 1:27 PM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Wrenches, > Any recommendations for a "high voltage"  Array Direct surface pump. > Pumping from a creek. 150' head. Looking for as many gpm's as > possible. Large array is fine. If I remember correctly, Dankoff pumps > are fairly low voltage. > Thanks, > Michael > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric Inc > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > CSLB 1116835 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Thu Nov 14 20:10:57 2024 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2024 17:10:57 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Pumps In-Reply-To: <41d6c6c7-58f5-443e-8735-63ff878c67df@coveoregon.com> References: <41d6c6c7-58f5-443e-8735-63ff878c67df@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: How well do these pumps do with creek supplied water? The SQF has been my go to submersible well pump forever. Never put one in a creek though. On Thu, Nov 14, 2024 at 2:35 PM Kent via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > The SunPumps SCS pump > should > do what you need. > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > 541-975-3930 > > > On 11/14/2024 1:27 PM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Wrenches, > Any recommendations for a "high voltage" Array Direct surface pump. > Pumping from a creek. 150' head. Looking for as many gpm's as possible. > Large array is fine. If I remember correctly, Dankoff pumps are fairly low > voltage. > Thanks, > Michael > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric Inc > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > CSLB 1116835 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Nov 14 21:16:14 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2024 19:16:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Pumps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0AEE1EB3-0706-4089-A22E-89D5EE87FF08@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Nov 14 22:22:20 2024 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2024 19:22:20 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Pumps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Grundfus makes a submersible pump that is high DC voltage and gas may GPM options model is ....SQF.. . Jerry On Thu, Nov 14, 2024, 1:28 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches, > Any recommendations for a "high voltage" Array Direct surface pump. > Pumping from a creek. 150' head. Looking for as many gpm's as possible. > Large array is fine. If I remember correctly, Dankoff pumps are fairly low > voltage. > Thanks, > Michael > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric Inc > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > CSLB 1116835 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Nov 15 06:19:29 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2024 11:19:29 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] More Issues with Parallel Sol-Ark 15K System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5a8a90b4-d7c1-edde-a47c-6c0938dc04ce@floridasolardesigngroup.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment-1.png Type: image/png Size: 81997 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Jharen.Poole at sol-ark.com Fri Nov 15 08:27:47 2024 From: Jharen.Poole at sol-ark.com (Poole, Jharen) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2024 13:27:47 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] More Issues with Parallel Sol-Ark 15K System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Chris, Stage 0 is what we would consider the state of the inverter before it reaches normal. Once you reach normal (stage 1) that is when you will begin outputting power, inverting power from solar, etc. Best Regards, Jharen Poole Applications Engineer II 972-575-8875 [cid:72291b2f-f49e-4845-8dc0-6762fc80fdeb] ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2024 8:37 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: Christopher Warfel Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] More Issues with Parallel Sol-Ark 15K System Caution: This email is from an external source. Can you point to a reference to what stage 0 is? This is a new term for me. So far, have not installed multiple Sol-Ark inverters at one site. Thank you, Chris On 11/12/2024 12:50 PM, Poole, Jharen via RE-wrenches wrote: Our inverters utilize CANbus communications for establishing parallel operation between multiple Sol-Ark inverters. CANbus communication operates as a serial communication protocol. In this setup each inverter in the setup is linked via a parallel communication cable forming a daisy-chain configuration. If one inverter in the chain experiences a shutdown due to a fault, the communication chain is disrupted. Consequently, the other inverters will also power down when we see this loss, ensuring system protection and safeguarding the customer’s investment. Paralleling must be done at a stage 0 they have to sync and that is done in the pre normal mode, functionality wise having them going into sync is extremely difficult due to timing issues. It's easier to time it from a stage 0 than to do it when one unit is already running. Maintaining synchronization between inverters is critical; if the inverters were to operate out of parallel it can result in conflicts between the operation of inverters and desynchronization of the units. This misalignment can escalate, potentially causing significant damage to one or more inverters and risking harm to other connected equipment. Best Regards, Jharen Poole Applications Engineer II 972-575-8875 [cid:part1.MK5yzE0L.ZVDZmzyA at entech-engineering.com] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Christopher Warfel, PE Entech Engineering, Inc. POB 871 Block Island, RI 02807 401-447-5773 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-glvzpbsr.png Type: image/png Size: 82002 bytes Desc: Outlook-glvzpbsr.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-d3rjq53y.png Type: image/png Size: 82002 bytes Desc: Outlook-d3rjq53y.png URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Fri Nov 15 08:41:25 2024 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2024 06:41:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Pumps In-Reply-To: <41d6c6c7-58f5-443e-8735-63ff878c67df@coveoregon.com> References: <41d6c6c7-58f5-443e-8735-63ff878c67df@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: <002001db3764$111381f0$333a85d0$@OasisMontana.com> Also check out Thunderbird Solar, https://www.thunderbirdsolar.com/ -- and catch up with Cody: Cody Burgdorff cody.burgdorff at thunderbirdsolar.com Their PICOCELL product moves a LOT of water! TGIF, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Kent via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2024 3:34 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: Kent Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Pumps The SunPumps SCS pump should do what you need. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar 541-975-3930 On 11/14/2024 1:27 PM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: Wrenches, Any recommendations for a "high voltage" Array Direct surface pump. Pumping from a creek. 150' head. Looking for as many gpm's as possible. Large array is fine. If I remember correctly, Dankoff pumps are fairly low voltage. Thanks, Michael -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Fri Nov 15 10:16:25 2024 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2024 10:16:25 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] More Issues with Parallel Sol-Ark 15K System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Much appreciated.   Thank you, Chris On 11/15/2024 8:27 AM, Poole, Jharen wrote: > Hello Chris, > > Stage 0 is what we would consider the state of the inverter before it > reaches normal. Once you reach normal (stage 1) that is when you will > begin outputting power, inverting power from solar, etc. > > > Best Regards, > > Jharen Poole > Applications Engineer II > 972-575-8875 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on > behalf of Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches > > *Sent:* Thursday, November 14, 2024 8:37 AM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > *Cc:* Christopher Warfel > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] More Issues with Parallel Sol-Ark 15K System > > > Caution: This email is from an external source. > > > > Can you point to a reference to what stage 0 is?  This is a new term > for me. So far, have not installed multiple Sol-Ark inverters at one > site.  Thank you, Chris > > On 11/12/2024 12:50 PM, Poole, Jharen via RE-wrenches wrote: >> Our inverters utilize CANbus communications for establishing parallel >> operation between multiple Sol-Ark inverters. CANbus communication >> operates as a serial communication protocol. In this setup each >> inverter in the setup is linked via a parallel communication cable >> forming a daisy-chain configuration. If one inverter in the chain >> experiences a shutdown due to a fault, the communication chain is >> disrupted. Consequently, the other inverters will also power down >> when we see this loss, ensuring system protection and safeguarding >> the customer’s investment. >> >> Paralleling must be done at a stage 0 they have to sync and that is >> done in the pre normal mode, functionality wise having them going >> into sync is extremely difficult due to timing issues. It's easier to >> time it from a stage 0 than to do it when one unit is already running. >> >> Maintaining synchronization between inverters is critical; if the >> inverters were to operate out of parallel it can result in conflicts >> between the operation of inverters and desynchronization of the >> units. This misalignment can escalate, potentially causing >> significant damage to one or more inverters and risking harm to other >> connected equipment. >> >> >> Best Regards, >> >> Jharen Poole >> Applications Engineer II >> 972-575-8875 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -- > Christopher Warfel, PE > Entech Engineering, Inc. > POB 871 Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-447-5773 -- Christopher Warfel           ENTECH Engineering Inc.    PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                   401-477-5773 EE Logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-d3rjq53y.png Type: image/png Size: 82002 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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URL: From rekindaguy at yahoo.com Fri Nov 15 11:28:11 2024 From: rekindaguy at yahoo.com (Bob-O) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2024 08:28:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Pumps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6B865D3B-F09A-4FA8-8C7F-BB6E65148E76@yahoo.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rekindaguy at yahoo.com Fri Nov 15 11:33:29 2024 From: rekindaguy at yahoo.com (Bob-O) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2024 08:33:29 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Pumps In-Reply-To: <1932c968dce.ebae82a8539387.6566961110869781649@greenwired.com> References: <1932c968dce.ebae82a8539387.6566961110869781649@greenwired.com> Message-ID: <9C8C129F-9A49-4FD6-96A8-F6A91113CA45@yahoo.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Fri Nov 15 11:37:11 2024 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2024 09:37:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] More Issues with Parallel Sol-Ark 15K System In-Reply-To: <5a8a90b4-d7c1-edde-a47c-6c0938dc04ce@floridasolardesigngroup.com> References: <5a8a90b4-d7c1-edde-a47c-6c0938dc04ce@floridasolardesigngroup.com> Message-ID: > > ...I don't see how that would put at risk "safeguarding the customer’s > investment." > Jason, my understanding of the risk is the system is designed to output an amount of power greater than or equal to the load requirements. If one or more of the inverters fault but the load requirements remain the same the functioning inverters are not capable of meeting that demand. Someone please correct me if my understanding of that is wrong. - Sam [image: OnSite Energy] SAM HARALDSON Operations Specialist (406) 551-6135 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 Locally owned and operated since 2012 [image: B Corporation] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Fri Nov 15 12:05:03 2024 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2024 07:05:03 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] More Issues with Parallel Sol-Ark 15K System In-Reply-To: References: <5a8a90b4-d7c1-edde-a47c-6c0938dc04ce@floridasolardesigngroup.com> Message-ID: Most of our residential off-grid systems are designed around the peak load so a lot of the time there is extra capacity laying around. I assumed the fault logic was similar to what Jason is suggesting, 1 inverter faults and drops out then the remaining "higher level" inverters run and fault on AC overload if the situation requires it. Guess I thought wrong. Aloha, Lou Russo Owner lou at spreesolarsystems.com Office - 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 On Fri, Nov 15, 2024 at 6:37 AM Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > ...I don't see how that would put at risk "safeguarding the customer’s >> investment." >> > > Jason, my understanding of the risk is the system is designed to output an > amount of power greater than or equal to the load requirements. If one or > more of the inverters fault but the load requirements remain the same the > functioning inverters are not capable of meeting that demand. Someone > please correct me if my understanding of that is wrong. > > - Sam > > > [image: OnSite Energy] > > > SAM HARALDSON > Operations Specialist > (406) 551-6135 > 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 > Locally owned and operated since 2012 > [image: B Corporation] > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Fri Nov 15 12:27:57 2024 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2024 09:27:57 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Idiots guide to communication In-Reply-To: <930DDEBD-91B5-4850-BD64-9D7C9B31467C@solarwork.com> References: <930DDEBD-91B5-4850-BD64-9D7C9B31467C@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Good morning Dana, In what manner do you mean? Are you seeking AC consumption data or wondering something about a specific brand? The folks at Zonna have proven to be knowledgeable if desiring to work with a distributor that knows their offerings like AEE was known for. Enjoy your Friday, Nick On Thu, Nov 14, 2024 at 7:05 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hey allyall > call me a dinosaur! > having lost AEE and the yearly dealer training I’m finding it hard to keep > up with some of the movement forward in equipment communication and I’m > wondering if there’s any recommended idiots guide to the various types of > equipment communication that are out there > Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Fri Nov 15 22:00:30 2024 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2024 19:00:30 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Pumps In-Reply-To: <9C8C129F-9A49-4FD6-96A8-F6A91113CA45@yahoo.com> References: <1932c968dce.ebae82a8539387.6566961110869781649@greenwired.com> <9C8C129F-9A49-4FD6-96A8-F6A91113CA45@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks Bob-O. That's exactly what I needed to know. On Fri, Nov 15, 2024 at 8:34 AM Bob-O via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > They also offer an SQF-25 which I use and like. Unlike the smaller SQF > pumps, it is a multi-stage centrifugal which can be disassembled and > cleaned. I do that every year. > Bob-O > > On Nov 14, 2024, at 1:32 PM, Andrew Perkins via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > You can do up to 300VDC off Grundfos SQF series. I know they have a 11 and > maybe a 20 for the highest gpm at that height. > > > Andrew Perkins > > Greenwired > > P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 > > 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd > > Redway, CA 95560 > www.greenwired.com > > > *Leave a review! * > > > > > > > > > > ---- On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 13:27:47 -0800 * > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org * > wrote ---- > > Wrenches, > Any recommendations for a "high voltage" Array Direct surface pump. > Pumping from a creek. 150' head. Looking for as many gpm's as possible. > Large array is fine. If I remember correctly, Dankoff pumps are fairly low > voltage. > Thanks, > Michael > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric Inc > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > CSLB 1116835 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Nov 16 15:22:25 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2024 12:22:25 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bench Testing RSDs Message-ID: <299f8a57a938f224d629b85d788b74a4@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I am repairing a system installed by others. The production is far below what I calculated it should be and what it used to produce before being worked on. The string voltages and currents do not makes sense with the number of panels on each string. The system has NEP PVG-2 smart rapid shut-down devices. 13 of 18 are reporting. It turns out the missing 5 were never programmed into the monitor. Three of the PVG-2s on one string were reporting with zero watts. Other PVG-2s on the same string were reporting power production. All modules tested good for Voc and Isc. This of course makes no sense that some RSDs on a string would produce no power and others did report power production. I suspect bad RSDs. To unravel this mystery I want to bench test the RSDs. I bought a PVG-T tester. It is used to test strings after installation. Is it possible I can test a string of one RSD on the bench? I would input into PV input 1 from a bench power supply and test for voltage at the string output connectors. Has anyone tried this? Thanks in advance. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Tue Nov 19 11:10:10 2024 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2024 10:10:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module discoloration Message-ID: I wanted to share a recent interesting experience with the group. I received a call from a client regarding module discoloration on a few modules on a ground mounted array. I asked her if the color discrepancy changed based on angle of observation or sun position and she said that it did not. Arriving on site, the discoloration was apparent. It turns out that she was regularly watering some plants near the array and has very iron heavy hard water. There was a layer of mineral deposits on the glass from the over spray. A slight thumb rubbing removed the layer and the discoloration. This was a new one for me. I am attaching a picture. In my climate we rarely have dirty module issues. What would be the best product for cleaning the glass safely? Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Untitled.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 514310 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Tue Nov 19 11:21:18 2024 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2024 11:21:18 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module discoloration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Kris, REC had put out some module cleaning guidelines at some point. I would assume these would hold up for any modules though. I've attached them here. Cheers, Dave On Tue, Nov 19, 2024 at 11:11 AM Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I wanted to share a recent interesting experience with the group. > > I received a call from a client regarding module discoloration on a few > modules on a ground mounted array. I asked her if the color discrepancy > changed based on angle of observation or sun position and she said that it > did not. > > Arriving on site, the discoloration was apparent. It turns out that she > was regularly watering some plants near the array and has very iron heavy > hard water. There was a layer of mineral deposits on the glass from the > over spray. A slight thumb rubbing removed the layer and the discoloration. > > This was a new one for me. I am attaching a picture. > > In my climate we rarely have dirty module issues. What would be the best > product for cleaning the glass safely? > > > > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 137 West 1st Avenue > Luck, WI 54853 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: REC Module Cleaning Guidelines.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 561030 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solareagle at solareagle.com Wed Nov 20 16:35:29 2024 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (solareagle at solareagle.com) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2024 13:35:29 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 12 integration Message-ID: <8B40EDE4-E2A4-43D0-B251-16BE3C78C8C8@solareagle.com> I have a Sol-Ark 12, old stock, that I’m thinking of installing at my residence, I have 14kW grid tie with enphase micro’s but want to add some Homegrid batteries for a backup option. I know it’s redundant to have the micros and the Sol-Ark but I also have a separate system with nearly 4kW off-grid, charging batteries. The off-grid part of the system is using an Outback 3648 dual inverter stack with a 12 year old bank of 4kS25 Rolls (48v) batteries. The Homegrid batteries would replace the Rolls so there would only be lithium batteries in the mix. I’m wondering if I can integrate all these components with the Sol-Ark successfully or am I setting myself up for some severe headaches. Are there some legacy issues with the Sol-Ark 12 that might be a problem? Any suggestions or Wrench experience with similar systems much appreciated. Ron earthRight Solar - Solareagle.com From pgiroux at mindspring.com Wed Nov 20 16:48:46 2024 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2024 16:48:46 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 12 integration In-Reply-To: <8B40EDE4-E2A4-43D0-B251-16BE3C78C8C8@solareagle.com> References: <8B40EDE4-E2A4-43D0-B251-16BE3C78C8C8@solareagle.com> Message-ID: <000401db3b95$fb089090$f119b1b0$@mindspring.com> Ron Afternoon. Saw your post. We just did something similar. Call me. 678 525 0468 Peter Giroux American Solar Thx peter -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of solareagle--- via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2024 4:35 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: solareagle at solareagle.com Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 12 integration I have a Sol-Ark 12, old stock, that I’m thinking of installing at my residence, I have 14kW grid tie with enphase micro’s but want to add some Homegrid batteries for a backup option. I know it’s redundant to have the micros and the Sol-Ark but I also have a separate system with nearly 4kW off-grid, charging batteries. The off-grid part of the system is using an Outback 3648 dual inverter stack with a 12 year old bank of 4kS25 Rolls (48v) batteries. The Homegrid batteries would replace the Rolls so there would only be lithium batteries in the mix. I’m wondering if I can integrate all these components with the Sol-Ark successfully or am I setting myself up for some severe headaches. Are there some legacy issues with the Sol-Ark 12 that might be a problem? Any suggestions or Wrench experience with similar systems much appreciated. Ron earthRight Solar - Solareagle.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Nov 20 17:18:57 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2024 14:18:57 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Measuring an RV for load Message-ID: Hi all I’ve got someone who wants to power their 5th wheel RV. Yeah yeah I know. I’m looking for a 240vac/ 50 amp measuring device kinda like a kill a watt for the RV plug. So I can get some real numbers for design. Does anyone have any suggestions or recommendations for such a device? Thx Jay From ray at solarray.com Wed Nov 20 18:53:21 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2024 16:53:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Measuring an RV for load In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43b64a10-4294-4dc1-b88b-d4f6f4f45619@solarray.com> I'd get the 120 v/ 15 A  adapter, your customer probably already has one, and then you can plug the Killowatt into that. Otherwise, I've made up cables with the outer jacket removed, so I can put a clamp meter on the individual hots.   A third option would be to wire an old utility electric meter with the 240/ 50A plugs on either end. Ray On 11/20/2024 3:18 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi all > > I’ve got someone who wants to power their 5th wheel RV. Yeah yeah I know. > > I’m looking for a 240vac/ 50 amp measuring device kinda like a kill a watt for the RV plug. > > So I can get some real numbers for design. > > Does anyone have any suggestions or recommendations for such a device? > > Thx > Jay > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Nov 20 19:05:36 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2024 16:05:36 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Measuring an RV for load In-Reply-To: <43b64a10-4294-4dc1-b88b-d4f6f4f45619@solarray.com> References: <43b64a10-4294-4dc1-b88b-d4f6f4f45619@solarray.com> Message-ID: Thx Ray. It’s not close by and I’m looking for something they can just plug and play, so they can just read it and let me know. Jay > On Nov 20, 2024, at 3:53 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I'd get the 120 v/ 15 A adapter, your customer probably already has one, and then you can plug the Killowatt into that. Otherwise, I've made up cables with the outer jacket removed, so I can put a clamp meter on the individual hots. A third option would be to wire an old utility electric meter with the 240/ 50A plugs on either end. > > Ray > >> On 11/20/2024 3:18 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: >> Hi all >> >> I’ve got someone who wants to power their 5th wheel RV. Yeah yeah I know. >> >> I’m looking for a 240vac/ 50 amp measuring device kinda like a kill a watt for the RV plug. >> >> So I can get some real numbers for design. >> >> Does anyone have any suggestions or recommendations for such a device? >> >> Thx >> Jay >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From solareagle at solareagle.com Wed Nov 20 19:30:00 2024 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (solareagle at solareagle.com) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2024 16:30:00 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 12 integration In-Reply-To: <8B40EDE4-E2A4-43D0-B251-16BE3C78C8C8@solareagle.com> References: <8B40EDE4-E2A4-43D0-B251-16BE3C78C8C8@solareagle.com> Message-ID: <63E29175-DEAF-4643-B283-6E7368C33C04@solareagle.com> Just to further clarify, the Sol-Ark would be replacing the Outback stack and Rolls batteries, not trying to integrate those. Ron earthRight Solar - Solareagle.com > On Nov 20, 2024, at 1:35 PM, solareagle--- via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I have a Sol-Ark 12, old stock, that I’m thinking of installing at my residence, I have 14kW grid tie with enphase micro’s but want to add some Homegrid batteries for a backup option. I know it’s redundant to have the micros and the Sol-Ark but I also have a separate system with nearly 4kW off-grid, charging batteries. The off-grid part of the system is using an Outback 3648 dual inverter stack with a 12 year old bank of 4kS25 Rolls (48v) batteries. The Homegrid batteries would replace the Rolls so there would only be lithium batteries in the mix. > > I’m wondering if I can integrate all these components with the Sol-Ark successfully or am I setting myself up for some severe headaches. Are there some legacy issues with the Sol-Ark 12 that might be a problem? Any suggestions or Wrench experience with similar systems much appreciated. > > Ron > earthRight Solar - Solareagle.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From maverick at mavericksolar.com Wed Nov 20 19:58:31 2024 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2024 18:58:31 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 12 integration In-Reply-To: <63E29175-DEAF-4643-B283-6E7368C33C04@solareagle.com> References: <63E29175-DEAF-4643-B283-6E7368C33C04@solareagle.com> Message-ID: <43C43339-3755-4400-A5CC-0FC8384A7C57@mavericksolar.com> Ron What is the primary goal? To get more power on your loads? To get more grid export? I have installed a bunch of outback products and you can’t beat the surge capacity and longevity. As you well know. Solark has an excellent grid zero feature with CTs. Outback and Solark both will work with the HomeGrid batteries. Solark will be closed loop and outback will be just fine open loop. Do you have a generator in the mix? Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On Nov 20, 2024, at 6:30 PM, solareagle--- via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Just to further clarify, the Sol-Ark would be replacing the Outback stack and Rolls batteries, not trying to integrate those. > > Ron > earthRight Solar - Solareagle.com > >> On Nov 20, 2024, at 1:35 PM, solareagle--- via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> I have a Sol-Ark 12, old stock, that I’m thinking of installing at my residence, I have 14kW grid tie with enphase micro’s but want to add some Homegrid batteries for a backup option. I know it’s redundant to have the micros and the Sol-Ark but I also have a separate system with nearly 4kW off-grid, charging batteries. The off-grid part of the system is using an Outback 3648 dual inverter stack with a 12 year old bank of 4kS25 Rolls (48v) batteries. The Homegrid batteries would replace the Rolls so there would only be lithium batteries in the mix. >> >> I’m wondering if I can integrate all these components with the Sol-Ark successfully or am I setting myself up for some severe headaches. Are there some legacy issues with the Sol-Ark 12 that might be a problem? Any suggestions or Wrench experience with similar systems much appreciated. >> >> Ron >> earthRight Solar - Solareagle.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Wed Nov 20 21:44:19 2024 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2024 21:44:19 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Measuring an RV for load In-Reply-To: References: <43b64a10-4294-4dc1-b88b-d4f6f4f45619@solarray.com> Message-ID: I’ve been drooling over the Fluke 1732 Power Measurement Logger for the past few year but can’t bring myself to spend that kind of money. Have any wrenchers used it? Jay, it looks like there is a product called the Power Watchdog PWD50EPO that is specifically designed for RVs and acts as a surge protector. The device has Bluetooth capability and also monitors power characteristics (volts, amps, kW, kWh). It sounds like this is what you are looking for. Around $300 Kindly, Chris On Wed, Nov 20, 2024 at 7:05 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Thx Ray. > > It’s not close by and I’m looking for something they can just plug and > play, so they can just read it and let me know. > > > > Jay > > > On Nov 20, 2024, at 3:53 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > > I'd get the 120 v/ 15 A adapter, your customer probably already has > one, and then you can plug the Killowatt into that. Otherwise, I've made up > cables with the outer jacket removed, so I can put a clamp meter on the > individual hots. A third option would be to wire an old utility electric > meter with the 240/ 50A plugs on either end. > > > > Ray > > > >> On 11/20/2024 3:18 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> Hi all > >> > >> I’ve got someone who wants to power their 5th wheel RV. Yeah yeah I > know. > >> > >> I’m looking for a 240vac/ 50 amp measuring device kinda like a kill a > watt for the RV plug. > >> > >> So I can get some real numbers for design. > >> > >> Does anyone have any suggestions or recommendations for such a device? > >> > >> Thx > >> Jay > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Nov 21 01:30:09 2024 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2024 22:30:09 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Measuring an RV for load In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches, Jay, E guage will do that, plus more, great tool for all kinds of energy usage testing. Fun times. On Wed, Nov 20, 2024, 2:19 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi all > > I’ve got someone who wants to power their 5th wheel RV. Yeah yeah I know. > > I’m looking for a 240vac/ 50 amp measuring device kinda like a kill a watt > for the RV plug. > > So I can get some real numbers for design. > > Does anyone have any suggestions or recommendations for such a device? > > Thx > Jay > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Thu Nov 21 10:10:38 2024 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2024 07:10:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Measuring an RV for load In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1732201838.391924738@webmail.finestplanet.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 720065 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Nov 21 10:34:48 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2024 07:34:48 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Measuring an RV for load In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <083FB4F1-63C5-4003-B2FF-B8D7F8180A90@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Fri Nov 22 12:54:03 2024 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2024 17:54:03 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Frozen LPF batteries - damaged or salvageable? Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, I've been asked to take on a project that was abandoned for 16 months. It has 3 stacks of 400Ah 51.2V Lithium batteries (gsl-energy) tied to a Sol-Ark. It was running at one point spring of 2023 with generator charging but has been offline dark for over a year. PV is still in crates. The batteries sat in an unheated unfinished building winter 23/24 and it would have got down to -40C (-40F) for weeks during winter cold snaps. The BMS did not power on, did not spend time troubleshooting during the initial assessment as I wanted to learn more. The battery specs say storage no colder than 0c (32F) and operation no colder than -20c (-4F). What I am trying to determine is if those batteries are salvageable, or damaged and if we should just replace them with new. I am also tempted to replace the sol-ark, haven't worked with that brand before but am not impressed with what I have heard from other people's experiences. Kevin Pegg EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. 37471 Hwy 16 E Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Fri Nov 22 18:49:09 2024 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2024 16:49:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Energy tech support Message-ID: <00da01db3d39$208292e0$6187b8a0$@OasisMontana.com> Hi folks: I suspect I am wasting time.but is there any contact number for Magnum or Sensata tech support? I think they are down the tubes. Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Nov 24 09:10:03 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2024 06:10:03 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Frozen LPF batteries - damaged or salvageable? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3ac6807bcb1be97f8b07699cf80cdd4f@sti.net> Hey Kevin, Think the op and storage Temps are mixed up? Even so, pretty cold, even for electronics 😉 Bill in advance on this one ! The all in one's are hard to warm up to but... Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-11-22 9:54 am, Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > I've been asked to take on a project that was abandoned for 16 months. > It has 3 stacks of 400Ah 51.2V Lithium batteries (gsl-energy) tied to a > Sol-Ark. It was running at one point spring of 2023 with generator > charging but has been offline dark for over a year. PV is still in > crates. > > The batteries sat in an unheated unfinished building winter 23/24 and > it would have got down to -40C (-40F) for weeks during winter cold > snaps. The BMS did not power on, did not spend time troubleshooting > during the initial assessment as I wanted to learn more. > > The battery specs say storage no colder than 0c (32F) and operation no > colder than -20c (-4F). > > What I am trying to determine is if those batteries are salvageable, or > damaged and if we should just replace them with new. I am also tempted > to replace the sol-ark, haven't worked with that brand before but am > not impressed with what I have heard from other people's experiences. > > Kevin Pegg > > EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. > > 37471 Hwy 16 E > > Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Nov 24 10:06:21 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2024 08:06:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Frozen LPF batteries - damaged or salvageable? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7454E825-B212-453D-A7C0-41F3DBD27374@gmail.com> I guess I’d talk to the battery company about the batteries. I mean if they actually froze I suppose the separators could have been damaged which could lead to all sorts of bad issues? Is that worth the risk? But if you’re thinking of total replacement, midnite has everything you need and it’s in your neck of the woods. Jay > On Nov 22, 2024, at 10:55 AM, Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Hi Wrenches, > > I’ve been asked to take on a project that was abandoned for 16 months. It has 3 stacks of 400Ah 51.2V Lithium batteries (gsl-energy) tied to a Sol-Ark. It was running at one point spring of 2023 with generator charging but has been offline dark for over a year. PV is still in crates. > > The batteries sat in an unheated unfinished building winter 23/24 and it would have got down to -40C (-40F) for weeks during winter cold snaps. The BMS did not power on, did not spend time troubleshooting during the initial assessment as I wanted to learn more. > > The battery specs say storage no colder than 0c (32F) and operation no colder than -20c (-4F). > > What I am trying to determine is if those batteries are salvageable, or damaged and if we should just replace them with new. I am also tempted to replace the sol-ark, haven’t worked with that brand before but am not impressed with what I have heard from other people’s experiences. > > Kevin Pegg > EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. > 37471 Hwy 16 E > Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will.white at fluke.com Mon Nov 25 13:16:16 2024 From: will.white at fluke.com (White, Will) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2024 18:16:16 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] [EXTERNAL] Frozen LPF batteries - damaged or salvageable? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My understanding is that if lithium-ion batteries freeze, they're destroyed with no hope of recovery. Like Jay said, I'd call the battery manufacturer and ask them. Let us know what they say. Thanks, Will ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, November 22, 2024 12:54 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: Kevin Pegg Subject: [EXTERNAL] [RE-wrenches] Frozen LPF batteries - damaged or salvageable? CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Hi Wrenches, I’ve been asked to take on a project that was abandoned for 16 months. It has 3 stacks of 400Ah 51.2V Lithium batteries (gsl-energy) tied to a Sol-Ark. It was running at one point spring of 2023 with generator charging but has been offline dark for over a year. PV is still in crates. The batteries sat in an unheated unfinished building winter 23/24 and it would have got down to -40C (-40F) for weeks during winter cold snaps. The BMS did not power on, did not spend time troubleshooting during the initial assessment as I wanted to learn more. The battery specs say storage no colder than 0c (32F) and operation no colder than -20c (-4F). What I am trying to determine is if those batteries are salvageable, or damaged and if we should just replace them with new. I am also tempted to replace the sol-ark, haven’t worked with that brand before but am not impressed with what I have heard from other people’s experiences. Kevin Pegg EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. 37471 Hwy 16 E Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2 ________________________________ Please be advised that this email may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us by email by replying to the sender and delete this message. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Dec 3 02:25:24 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2024 23:25:24 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Portal Message-ID: <07cd6c002779657fd384206b06146115@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I am unable to log onto the SMA Sunny Portal. I called tech support and received some vague information about a new server and “merging accounts” but when pressed for details I was provided none. I was told my problem would be escalated to a second level but it’s been almost a week and I have not heard a thing. Anyone else having problems with Sunny Portal? What is this world of ours coming to? It seems tech support is falling apart in every product line. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Tue Dec 3 05:42:39 2024 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2024 05:42:39 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Portal In-Reply-To: <07cd6c002779657fd384206b06146115@mail.gmail.com> References: <07cd6c002779657fd384206b06146115@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: SMA monitoring is alive and well. They did migrate to a new platform. It’s called EnnexOS. Depending on the age of your install it might need some attention getting you to the new OS. If it's a commercial install you will have to upgrade to their new Datalogger, as the old ClusterController isn’t compatible. With persistence and patience, my experience with SMA remains great. On Tue, Dec 3, 2024 at 2:25 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > > > I am unable to log onto the SMA Sunny Portal. I called tech support and > received some vague information about a new server and “merging accounts” > but when pressed for details I was provided none. I was told my problem > would be escalated to a second level but it’s been almost a week and I have > not heard a thing. > > > > Anyone else having problems with Sunny Portal? What is this world of ours > coming to? It seems tech support is falling apart in every product line. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Tue Dec 3 06:56:05 2024 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2024 06:56:05 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Portal In-Reply-To: References: <07cd6c002779657fd384206b06146115@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: As of a couple weeks ago, when you try to login, you should get redirected to sign up for an SMA ID. You need to go through this to log on to the SMA websites. Cheers, Dave On Tue, Dec 3, 2024, 5:45 AM david quattro via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > SMA monitoring is alive and well. They did migrate to a new platform. > It’s called EnnexOS. Depending on the age of your install it might need > some attention getting you to the new OS. If it's a commercial install you > will have to upgrade to their new Datalogger, as the old ClusterController > isn’t compatible. > With persistence and patience, my experience with SMA remains great. > > > > On Tue, Dec 3, 2024 at 2:25 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Friends: >> >> >> >> I am unable to log onto the SMA Sunny Portal. I called tech support and >> received some vague information about a new server and “merging accounts” >> but when pressed for details I was provided none. I was told my problem >> would be escalated to a second level but it’s been almost a week and I have >> not heard a thing. >> >> >> >> Anyone else having problems with Sunny Portal? What is this world of >> ours coming to? It seems tech support is falling apart in every product >> line. >> >> >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Dec 3 09:00:49 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2024 07:00:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Message-ID: This discussion of SMA got me wondering if anyone has info on Outback? Thanks Jay From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Tue Dec 3 12:12:13 2024 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2024 17:12:13 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Portal In-Reply-To: References: <07cd6c002779657fd384206b06146115@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: The recent “migration” for SMA is indeed consolidating all various portal logins to an SMA ID. This covers classic Portal, ennexOS Portal, Sunny Design, Online Service Center, 360 App and Energy App (phew). Everyone will be prompted to “create” an SMA ID when logging into one of these portals (but not mobile apps like 360/Energy). There is an info page for SMA ID here: https://account.sma.energy/start (The migration of “webconnect” classic Sunny Portal plants to the ennexOS Sunny Portal happened many months ago and is independent of the SMA ID switchover. Comments below are correct that webbox and cluster controller systems were not migrated during this process.) Mike Michael Mahon (he/him) Solar Academy Manager | SMA America +1 916 918 9412 SMA America | Solar Academy | TechTip Channel | Upcoming Academy Trainings [cid:image001.jpg at 01DB456B.C5FFE260] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, December 3, 2024 4:56 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Dave Tedeyan Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Portal As of a couple weeks ago, when you try to login, you should get redirected to sign up for an SMA ID. You need to go through this to log on to the SMA websites. Cheers, Dave On Tue, Dec 3, 2024, 5:45 AM david quattro via RE-wrenches > wrote: SMA monitoring is alive and well. They did migrate to a new platform. It’s called EnnexOS. Depending on the age of your install it might need some attention getting you to the new OS. If it's a commercial install you will have to upgrade to their new Datalogger, as the old ClusterController isn’t compatible. With persistence and patience, my experience with SMA remains great. On Tue, Dec 3, 2024 at 2:25 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: Friends: I am unable to log onto the SMA Sunny Portal. I called tech support and received some vague information about a new server and “merging accounts” but when pressed for details I was provided none. I was told my problem would be escalated to a second level but it’s been almost a week and I have not heard a thing. Anyone else having problems with Sunny Portal? What is this world of ours coming to? It seems tech support is falling apart in every product line. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 117389 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Dec 3 12:31:11 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2024 09:31:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Portal In-Reply-To: References: <07cd6c002779657fd384206b06146115@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks everyone. I have two sites only and both are web-box based. What happens with these sites? William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Tue, Dec 3, 2024 at 9:13 AM Harry Mahon via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > The recent “migration” for SMA is indeed consolidating all various portal > logins to an SMA ID. This covers classic Portal, ennexOS Portal, Sunny > Design, Online Service Center, 360 App and Energy App (phew). > > > > Everyone will be prompted to “create” an SMA ID when logging into one of > these portals (but not mobile apps like 360/Energy). > > > > There is an info page for SMA ID here: https://account.sma.energy/start > > > > (The migration of “webconnect” classic Sunny Portal plants to the ennexOS > Sunny Portal happened many months ago and is independent of the SMA ID > switchover. Comments below are correct that webbox and cluster controller > systems were not migrated during this process.) > > > > Mike > > > > > *Michael Mahon* (he/him) > Solar Academy Manager | SMA America > > +1 916 918 9412 > SMA America | Solar Academy > | TechTip Channel > > | Upcoming Academy Trainings > > > This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC > confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the > intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or > any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not > the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and > permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any > attachments thereto. Thank you. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 3, 2024 4:56 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Dave Tedeyan > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Portal > > > > As of a couple weeks ago, when you try to login, you should get redirected > to sign up for an SMA ID. You need to go through this to log on to the SMA > websites. > > > > Cheers, > > Dave > > > > On Tue, Dec 3, 2024, 5:45 AM david quattro via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > SMA monitoring is alive and well. They did migrate to a new platform. > It’s called EnnexOS. Depending on the age of your install it might need > some attention getting you to the new OS. If it's a commercial install you > will have to upgrade to their new Datalogger, as the old ClusterController > isn’t compatible. > > With persistence and patience, my experience with SMA remains great. > > > > > > > > On Tue, Dec 3, 2024 at 2:25 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Friends: > > > > I am unable to log onto the SMA Sunny Portal. I called tech support and > received some vague information about a new server and “merging accounts” > but when pressed for details I was provided none. I was told my problem > would be escalated to a second level but it’s been almost a week and I have > not heard a thing. > > > > Anyone else having problems with Sunny Portal? What is this world of ours > coming to? It seems tech support is falling apart in every product line. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 117389 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Tue Dec 3 12:48:29 2024 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2024 17:48:29 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Portal In-Reply-To: References: <07cd6c002779657fd384206b06146115@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: These will keep reporting to the classic Portal. If webbox is replaced by Data Manager, then the system will be migrated to ennexOS portal. Best – Mike Michael Mahon (he/him) Solar Academy Manager | SMA America +1 916 918 9412 SMA America | Solar Academy | TechTip Channel | Upcoming Academy Trainings [cid:image001.jpg at 01DB4570.D486F670] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of William Miller via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, December 3, 2024 10:31 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: William Miller Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Portal Thanks everyone. I have two sites only and both are web-box based. What happens with these sites? William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Tue, Dec 3, 2024 at 9:13 AM Harry Mahon via RE-wrenches > wrote: The recent “migration” for SMA is indeed consolidating all various portal logins to an SMA ID. This covers classic Portal, ennexOS Portal, Sunny Design, Online Service Center, 360 App and Energy App (phew). Everyone will be prompted to “create” an SMA ID when logging into one of these portals (but not mobile apps like 360/Energy). There is an info page for SMA ID here: https://account.sma.energy/start (The migration of “webconnect” classic Sunny Portal plants to the ennexOS Sunny Portal happened many months ago and is independent of the SMA ID switchover. Comments below are correct that webbox and cluster controller systems were not migrated during this process.) Mike Michael Mahon (he/him) Solar Academy Manager | SMA America +1 916 918 9412 SMA America | Solar Academy | TechTip Channel | Upcoming Academy Trainings [cid:image001.jpg at 01DB4570.D486F670] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, December 3, 2024 4:56 AM To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Dave Tedeyan > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Portal As of a couple weeks ago, when you try to login, you should get redirected to sign up for an SMA ID. You need to go through this to log on to the SMA websites. Cheers, Dave On Tue, Dec 3, 2024, 5:45 AM david quattro via RE-wrenches > wrote: SMA monitoring is alive and well. They did migrate to a new platform. It’s called EnnexOS. Depending on the age of your install it might need some attention getting you to the new OS. If it's a commercial install you will have to upgrade to their new Datalogger, as the old ClusterController isn’t compatible. With persistence and patience, my experience with SMA remains great. On Tue, Dec 3, 2024 at 2:25 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: Friends: I am unable to log onto the SMA Sunny Portal. I called tech support and received some vague information about a new server and “merging accounts” but when pressed for details I was provided none. I was told my problem would be escalated to a second level but it’s been almost a week and I have not heard a thing. Anyone else having problems with Sunny Portal? What is this world of ours coming to? It seems tech support is falling apart in every product line. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 117389 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Tue Dec 3 19:21:24 2024 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2024 19:21:24 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] envy.fortresspower.io - documentation MIA??? Message-ID: Hello, Does anyone know of any documentation or tutorial that exists for this dashboard? I can't find any on their site or youtube channel.. I've just done my first multi-inverter Envy system, and amongst other things, there appears no way to set a simple kiosk mode, limit customer setpoint access through an administrator, or combine total inverter production and consumption into a whole system view (i.e. must be viewed separately by clicking on individual inverter serial #s). Does their Guardian box have any of these features? I know it's simpler, and may be what I need to limit the customers' access to fooling with setpoints. This kind of stuff bugs me about Fortress. As with their setpoint descriptions, common features of other platforms are missing and what is there is not necessarily intuitive.......and no documentation to explain them clearly. Thanks. -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Dec 4 09:45:36 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2024 07:45:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] envy.fortresspower.io - documentation MIA??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Wed Dec 4 11:46:17 2024 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2024 11:46:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] envy.fortresspower.io - documentation MIA??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jay, Do you remember the details of how you set it up to see the combined inverter data? I have an individual dongle for each inverter tied into the envy dashboard, but don’t see any means of creating the sums of both in any of the options. *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 On Wed, Dec 4, 2024 at 9:47 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Kirk > > I did a 3 inverter fortress and the envy online portal shows 1 total set > of numbers for kWh/day, PV, battery kWh > If I want to see individual numbers I have to go into each inverter. > > The guardian box I think is for web comm for the batteries. > > I’m waiting for the next firmware upgrade that will allow battery data via > the inverter/web interface > > Jay > > > > On Dec 3, 2024, at 5:22 PM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Hello, > Does anyone know of any documentation or tutorial that exists for this > dashboard? I can't find any on their site or youtube channel.. > > I've just done my first multi-inverter Envy system, and amongst other > things, there appears no way to set a simple kiosk mode, limit customer > setpoint access through an administrator, or combine total inverter > production and consumption into a whole system view (i.e. must be viewed > separately by clicking on individual inverter serial #s). > > Does their Guardian box have any of these features? I know it's simpler, > and may be what I need to limit the customers' access to fooling with > setpoints. > > This kind of stuff bugs me about Fortress. As with their setpoint > descriptions, common features of other platforms are missing and what is > there is not necessarily intuitive.......and no documentation to explain > them clearly. Thanks. > > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Dec 5 12:57:09 2024 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2024 17:57:09 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] General Liability insurance for solar installation Message-ID: I know this question has been covered in the past & My Liability insurance renewal is coming up & I am looking for fresh information, please: Not all insurance companies cover solar & roof top installations. Who do you use for General Liability? Would you recommend them? Issues with coverage i.e. roof top installs? _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Dec 5 14:17:57 2024 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2024 14:17:57 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] De-icing panels off grid Message-ID: Has anyone successfully used heat panels or cables to melt iced-over panels (ie. without damaging the panels)? In heavy snow country, or over periods of freeze/thaw when pelty slushy snow sticks and freezes to panels, it would be nice to have a safe method of clearing them, especially off-grid. I remember discussions of the futility of backfeeding panels to heat them up to accomplish the same, but not about heat tape or pans that might be worth trying. Thanks, Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Thu Dec 5 15:45:36 2024 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (GLBCC) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2024 15:45:36 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] De-icing panels off grid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <673583e7-b534-49f6-9beb-f8fdd1442bdc@email.android.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Thu Dec 5 16:01:43 2024 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2024 16:01:43 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] De-icing panels off grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: https://glasscareexperts.com/solar-glass-protection/ I’ve never tried it but just heard about these people. From the bio they are the original makers of rain X, but they customized a product, several of them, to clean Pv panels and they also mentioned it can help to shed rain and snow. By the way, Rainx is not approved for such an application. *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 On Thu, Dec 5, 2024 at 2:19 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Has anyone successfully used heat panels or cables to melt iced-over > panels (ie. without damaging the panels)? In heavy snow country, or over > periods of freeze/thaw when pelty slushy snow sticks and freezes to panels, > it would be nice to have a safe method of clearing them, especially > off-grid. I remember discussions of the futility of backfeeding panels to > heat them up to accomplish the same, but not about heat tape or pans that > might be worth trying. > Thanks, > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pureenergysolar at hotmail.com Thu Dec 5 17:13:20 2024 From: pureenergysolar at hotmail.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2024 22:13:20 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Company status Message-ID: I just spoke with Chirs in Outback tech support. If you have ever called tech support there's a 90% chance that you spoke with him. He says that they are indeed rebuilding the company under the new ownership. They are way backed up on tech support return calls, have about 5 people in training to answer calls. The have moved the service center and manufacturing to Texas and are training the employees at the new location. But the company is still very much around but have a way to go before they are where they once were. And that's the new from Lake Woebegone. Wayne Irwin President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com PureEnergySolar.com SolarChargingStation.com 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Thu Dec 5 17:14:38 2024 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2024 14:14:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] De-icing panels off grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1733436878.969327382@webmail.finestplanet.com> Passive works best. In big snow country here, I learned the hard way to only do pole mounts... and set the angle steep in the winter. The snow slides off and all is fine. Todd On Thursday, December 5, 2024 1:01pm, "Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches" said: [ https://glasscareexperts.com/solar-glass-protection/ ]( https://glasscareexperts.com/solar-glass-protection/ )I’ve never tried it but just heard about these people. From the bio they are the original makers of rain X, but they customized a product, several of them, to clean Pv panels and they also mentioned it can help to shed rain and snow. By the way, Rainx is not approved for such an application. Kirk Herander / [ kirkh at vermont.solar ]( mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar ) Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!! dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 On Thu, Dec 5, 2024 at 2:19 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches <[ re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org )> wrote: Has anyone successfully used heat panels or cables to melt iced-over panels (ie. without damaging the panels)? In heavy snow country, or over periods of freeze/thaw when pelty slushy snow sticks and freezes to panels, it would be nice to have a safe method of clearing them, especially off-grid. I remember discussions of the futility of backfeeding panels to heat them up to accomplish the same, but not about heat tape or pans that might be worth trying. Thanks,Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher_______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: [ http://re-wrenches.org ]( http://re-wrenches.org ) List Address: [ RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ) Change listserver email address & settings: [ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ) There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: [ https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ ]( https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ ) [ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ) List rules & etiquette: [ http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ]( http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ) Check out or update participant bios: [ http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ]( http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ) Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Dec 5 17:28:49 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2024 17:28:49 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] General Liability insurance for solar installation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is probably going to be largely state specific since insurance companies are regulated by state. We use Builder's Insurance Company (I think also known as American Builders Insurance) and we are happy with them. The cost is always too much with insurance in my experience, but they handled our one and only claim ever in a professional and expeditious manner. We had an employee bust a pipe in an attic and didn't notice it right away. $20,000 in damages... $2,000 deductible. They handled all customer communications with speed and fairness. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Dec 5, 2024 at 12:57 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I know this question has been covered in the past & My Liability insurance > renewal is coming up & I am looking for fresh information, please: > > Not all insurance companies cover solar & roof top installations. > > > > Who do you use for General Liability? > > Would you recommend them? > > Issues with coverage i.e. roof top installs? > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! > > C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com > > W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com > > *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Dec 5 20:49:39 2024 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2024 20:49:39 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] De-icing panels off grid In-Reply-To: <1733436878.969327382@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <1733436878.969327382@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: Todd, In general that had been my philosophy, but sometimes pole mounts are just logistically to difficult/ expensive - especially large ones. In general, if it is a windy location, the snow doesn't stick around that long. However, even pole mounts at a steep angle can get encrusted and if it doesn't get warm enough or sunny, that can stick on the panels for a week or more. I've never considered anything like heat panels or tape, but if there is something that works that doesn't harm the panels, then it might be a decent option in some cases. Howie On Thu, Dec 5, 2024, 5:15 PM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Passive works best. In big snow country here, I learned the hard way to > only do pole mounts... and set the angle steep in the winter. The snow > slides off and all is fine. > > Todd > > > > > On Thursday, December 5, 2024 1:01pm, "Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches" < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> said: > > https://glasscareexperts.com/solar-glass-protection/ > I’ve never tried it but just heard about these people. From the bio they > are the original makers of rain X, but they customized a product, several > of them, to clean Pv panels and they also mentioned it can help to shed > rain and snow. > By the way, Rainx is not approved for such an application. > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > > On Thu, Dec 5, 2024 at 2:19 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Has anyone successfully used heat panels or cables to melt iced-over >> panels (ie. without damaging the panels)? In heavy snow country, or over >> periods of freeze/thaw when pelty slushy snow sticks and freezes to panels, >> it would be nice to have a safe method of clearing them, especially >> off-grid. I remember discussions of the futility of backfeeding panels to >> heat them up to accomplish the same, but not about heat tape or pans that >> might be worth trying. >> Thanks, >> Howie Michaelson >> Sun Catcher >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Fri Dec 6 01:00:43 2024 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Jesse Dahl) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2024 00:00:43 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] De-icing panels off grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46A4BA0E-71D4-43D3-A871-504807C4DAF7@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Fri Dec 6 11:26:24 2024 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2024 08:26:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] De-icing panels off grid In-Reply-To: References: <1733436878.969327382@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: <1733502384.150623903@webmail.finestplanet.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: img-0.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 95548 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Dec 6 11:34:08 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2024 09:34:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] De-icing panels off grid In-Reply-To: <1733502384.150623903@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <1733436878.969327382@webmail.finestplanet.com> <1733502384.150623903@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: <047C5339-5DCB-4E27-93DE-C58791E27B68@gmail.com> Wow how much snow did that? Jay > On Dec 6, 2024, at 9:26 AM, Todd Cory via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Yes, in deep snow country tall pole mounts can be expensive... especially with enough room below so the sliding snow never meets the bottom edge of the array. My home system has 5 pole mounts with the bottom edges ~6' above the ground. > > Now that engineering is mandated, this adds more expense to ensure sure the foundation can support the mechanical forces of this configuration. But shallow angle roof mounts risk having the bottom edge of the modules get ripped off (see attached picture) so here in the Mount Shasta area, this is the only thing that works. > > There was a thread where people were experimenting with reverse biasing modules to cause them to generate heat. I think boB was working on some kind of possibility for a charge controller option to do this, but I am not sure where that went. > > Todd > > > > > > > On Thursday, December 5, 2024 5:49pm, "Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches" > said: > > Todd, > In general that had been my philosophy, but sometimes pole mounts are just logistically to difficult/ expensive - especially large ones. In general, if it is a windy location, the snow doesn't stick around that long. However, even pole mounts at a steep angle can get encrusted and if it doesn't get warm enough or sunny, that can stick on the panels for a week or more. I've never considered anything like heat panels or tape, but if there is something that works that doesn't harm the panels, then it might be a decent option in some cases. > Howie > > On Thu, Dec 5, 2024, 5:15 PM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Passive works best. In big snow country here, I learned the hard way to only do pole mounts... and set the angle steep in the winter. The snow slides off and all is fine. >> >> Todd >> >> >> >> >> On Thursday, December 5, 2024 1:01pm, "Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches" > said: >> >> https://glasscareexperts.com/solar-glass-protection/ >> I’ve never tried it but just heard about these people. From the bio they are the original makers of rain X, but they customized a product, several of them, to clean Pv panels and they also mentioned it can help to shed rain and snow. >> By the way, Rainx is not approved for such an application. >> >> Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar >> Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC >> Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!! >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> 802.559.1225 >> >> On Thu, Dec 5, 2024 at 2:19 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> Has anyone successfully used heat panels or cables to melt iced-over panels (ie. without damaging the panels)? In heavy snow country, or over periods of freeze/thaw when pelty slushy snow sticks and freezes to panels, it would be nice to have a safe method of clearing them, especially off-grid. I remember discussions of the futility of backfeeding panels to heat them up to accomplish the same, but not about heat tape or pans that might be worth trying. >>> Thanks, >>> Howie Michaelson >>> Sun Catcher >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> >> Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Fri Dec 6 12:21:03 2024 From: frenergy at psln.com (Bill Battagin) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2024 09:21:03 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] De-icing panels off grid In-Reply-To: <047C5339-5DCB-4E27-93DE-C58791E27B68@gmail.com> References: <1733436878.969327382@webmail.finestplanet.com> <1733502384.150623903@webmail.finestplanet.com> <047C5339-5DCB-4E27-93DE-C58791E27B68@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7777208b-d027-4287-ad4f-4cbed9108d6b@psln.com> That's difficult to say because its more a function of weight than depth of snow.  It's not called Sierra Cement here in the Sierras for fun, sometimes 4" of snow can weight as much as a foot.  We had 3 feet of "regular" snow (yes, 3 feet) slide of a top-of-pole array with no damage to the panels, but depending on things like ice stuck to the bottom lip of a PV can make the difference.  Or like Todd said whether or not there is enough room for the snow to clear the bottom of the array after the slide event. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, owner 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) CA. C10 Lic # 874049 Solar Powered since 1982 Home of the Sunny Side Up On 12/6/2024 8:34 AM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > Wow how much snow did that? > > Jay > > > > > >> On Dec 6, 2024, at 9:26 AM, Todd Cory via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> Yes, in deep snow country tall pole mounts can be expensive... >> especially with enough room below so the sliding snow never meets the >> bottom edge of the array. My home system has 5 pole mounts with the >> bottom edges ~6' above the ground. >> >> Now that engineering is mandated, this adds more expense to ensure >> sure the foundation can support the mechanical forces of this >> configuration. But shallow angle roof mounts risk having the bottom >> edge of the modules get ripped off (see attached picture) so here in >> the Mount Shasta area, this is the only thing that works. >> >> There was a thread where people were experimenting with reverse >> biasing modules to cause them to generate heat. I think boB was >> working on some kind of possibility for a charge controller option to >> do this, but I am not sure where that went. >> >> Todd >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thursday, December 5, 2024 5:49pm, "Howie Michaelson via >> RE-wrenches" said: >> >> Todd, >> In general that had been my philosophy, but sometimes pole mounts are >> just logistically to difficult/ expensive  - especially large ones.  >> In general, if it is a windy location, the snow doesn't stick around >> that long. However, even pole mounts at a steep angle can get >> encrusted and if it doesn't get warm enough or sunny, that can stick >> on the panels for a week or more.  I've never considered anything >> like heat panels or tape, but if there is something that works that >> doesn't harm the panels, then it might be a decent option in some cases. >> Howie >> >> On Thu, Dec 5, 2024, 5:15 PM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> Passive works best. In big snow country here, I learned the hard >> way to only do pole mounts... and set the angle steep in the >> winter. The snow slides off and all is fine. >> >> Todd >> >> >> >> >> On Thursday, December 5, 2024 1:01pm, "Kirk Herander via >> RE-wrenches" said: >> >> https://glasscareexperts.com/solar-glass-protection/ >> I’ve never tried it but just heard about these people. From the >> bio they are the original makers of rain X, but they customized a >> product, several of them, to clean Pv panels and they also >> mentioned it can help to shed rain and snow. >> By the way, Rainx is not  approved for such an application. >> >> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar* >> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >> */Celebrating our 33^st  Anniversary 1991-2024!!/* >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> 802.559.1225 >> >> On Thu, Dec 5, 2024 at 2:19 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> Has anyone successfully used heat panels or cables to melt >> iced-over panels (ie. without damaging the panels)? In heavy >> snow country, or over periods of freeze/thaw when pelty >> slushy snow sticks and freezes to panels, it would be nice to >> have a safe method of clearing them, especially off-grid.  I >> remember discussions of the futility of backfeeding panels to >> heat them up to accomplish the same, but not about heat tape >> or pans that might be worth trying. >> Thanks, >> Howie Michaelson >> Sun Catcher >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >> work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >> try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at outpostreconcepts.com Fri Dec 6 12:39:42 2024 From: jay at outpostreconcepts.com (jay pozner) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2024 10:39:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] De-icing panels off grid In-Reply-To: <1733502384.150623903@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <1733436878.969327382@webmail.finestplanet.com> <1733502384.150623903@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: I have gone around this many times on this one. It's interesting to hear all the perspectives of peers whom I greatly respect. In revisiting this I think context is really important. There are so many factors that can add up to "tip" the scales to favor this idea that one professional might or might not consider. I have seen a fair amount of destruction of PV from snow, and of course the disruption in PV performance which could then of course cascade to battery destruction. In trying to avoid the heat idea, I have made a secondary (small) array mounted vertically on a wall of a cabin to simply maintain a trickle charge of the batteries of the system during winter months when the cabin isn't being used, in efforts to keep the lead acid batteries topped off. Of course it's not perfect if the snow water content is high, and there is wind, but in an inter-mountain (dry) snowpack it seems to perform well. One idea that I am tilting towards more and more in these unique circumstances is to power the heat source (heat tape, etc) with the generator circuit. Of course there needs to be a reasonable sized generator on site, but for most of my stand alone situations this is more rule than exception. We can get fancy with a timer (to keep track of daylight hours) and a photosensor to automatically determine if the array is substantially covered, but truthfully I bet a simple switch used in these situations actuated by the system owner might suffice... Jay Pozner (970) 209-0024 On Fri, Dec 6, 2024 at 9:27 AM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Yes, in deep snow country tall pole mounts can be expensive... especially > with enough room below so the sliding snow never meets the bottom edge of > the array. My home system has 5 pole mounts with the bottom edges ~6' above > the ground. > > Now that engineering is mandated, this adds more expense to ensure sure > the foundation can support the mechanical forces of this configuration. But > shallow angle roof mounts risk having the bottom edge of the modules get > ripped off (see attached picture) so here in the Mount Shasta area, this is > the only thing that works. > > There was a thread where people were experimenting with reverse biasing > modules to cause them to generate heat. I think boB was working on some > kind of possibility for a charge controller option to do this, but I am not > sure where that went. > > Todd > > > > > > > On Thursday, December 5, 2024 5:49pm, "Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches" < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> said: > > Todd, > In general that had been my philosophy, but sometimes pole mounts are just > logistically to difficult/ expensive - especially large ones. In general, > if it is a windy location, the snow doesn't stick around that long. > However, even pole mounts at a steep angle can get encrusted and if it > doesn't get warm enough or sunny, that can stick on the panels for a week > or more. I've never considered anything like heat panels or tape, but if > there is something that works that doesn't harm the panels, then it might > be a decent option in some cases. > Howie > > On Thu, Dec 5, 2024, 5:15 PM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Passive works best. In big snow country here, I learned the hard way to >> only do pole mounts... and set the angle steep in the winter. The snow >> slides off and all is fine. >> >> Todd >> >> >> >> >> On Thursday, December 5, 2024 1:01pm, "Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches" < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> said: >> >> https://glasscareexperts.com/solar-glass-protection/ >> I’ve never tried it but just heard about these people. From the bio they >> are the original makers of rain X, but they customized a product, several >> of them, to clean Pv panels and they also mentioned it can help to shed >> rain and snow. >> By the way, Rainx is not approved for such an application. >> >> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >> >> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >> >> *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* >> >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> >> 802.559.1225 >> >> On Thu, Dec 5, 2024 at 2:19 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Has anyone successfully used heat panels or cables to melt iced-over >>> panels (ie. without damaging the panels)? In heavy snow country, or over >>> periods of freeze/thaw when pelty slushy snow sticks and freezes to panels, >>> it would be nice to have a safe method of clearing them, especially >>> off-grid. I remember discussions of the futility of backfeeding panels to >>> heat them up to accomplish the same, but not about heat tape or pans that >>> might be worth trying. >>> Thanks, >>> Howie Michaelson >>> Sun Catcher >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> >> Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: img-0.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 95548 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Dec 6 13:49:51 2024 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2024 18:49:51 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Panel installation in snow country 0.02 In-Reply-To: References: <1733436878.969327382@webmail.finestplanet.com> <1733502384.150623903@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: Having installed at up to 13,200' elevation (60° rack mount) and in snow country for most of most of 37 years and dealing with installations by others that almost or completely come off the roof here is my 0.02: Low angle roofs less than 35deg seem to take on most of the damage incidents. Avalanches are most prevalent at 32-35+deg. Avys tend not to slide at less than 32 deg. Is the lower edge of the array shaded or partial shade on part of the array with the low angle winter sun? This allows for ice up on the bottom edge or on a section of the array. Is there a drop zone for the snow? I use 5' min below the leading edge for a mountain install I would increase this to higher. I know this sounds obvious - Is there a snow fence or obstruction (door shed roof) below the array? I now install esp. on lower angle roofs a mid-third rail & use 50% more contact to the roof points (cheap array life insurance). If using a micro inverter or optimizer - attach this to the panel so it flexes with the panel if necessary not the rail mount system. Watch out for bolts that stick up close to the back sheet. Happy Hollar Daze all! _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: jay pozner via RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] De-icing panels off grid Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2024 17:39:42 +0000 Size: 169184 URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Dec 6 14:09:05 2024 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2024 19:09:05 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Company status In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: REF Outback Out of curiosity are the old tech support #s good or is there new #s? _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Wayne Irwin via RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Company status Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2024 22:13:20 +0000 Size: 14193 URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Fri Dec 6 14:30:18 2024 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2024 14:30:18 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Panel installation in snow country 0.02 In-Reply-To: References: <1733436878.969327382@webmail.finestplanet.com> <1733502384.150623903@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: I always love how what I imagine to be a simple question often sparks a much wider, interesting conversation on this list. In this instance, I am dealing with an off- grid client in a colder, snowier, cloudier section of Vermont, but not an extreme environment. The panels are mounted on a fixed, 35 degree rack. The client is asking if putting heat pans behind the panels would be ok and useful for dealing with sticky snow/ice scenarios. Having never looked into the option, assuming it was probably a bad idea, I told him as much. But, of course he found an internet site that advertises such things specifically for solar panels. I was fairly skeptical, but since I really had never truly vetted the idea, I figured I would asked all you esteemed colleagues if anyone had any direct experience or knowledge of such things. So that is what I'm wondering about. Has anyone here had any direct, indirect or hearsay knowledge about devices for melting some amount of snow or ice build up off of panels? I'm not thinking this would be the primary method of clearing them, only a way to help get a sticky layer to release. I imagine it would be controlled by a simple on/off switch that the owner deals with as he deemed necessary. I am happy to hear everyone's stories about design, methodology, or recommendations for dealing with snow, since this is an ongoing concern in this part of the world (and hopefully will continue to be), but at the moment I am most interested to get feedback about methods of melting snow. Thanks as always, Howie Sun Catcher On Fri, Dec 6, 2024, 1:52 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Having installed at up to 13,200’ elevation (60° rack mount) and in snow > country for most of most of 37 years and dealing with installations by > others that almost or completely come off the roof here is my 0.02: > > > > Low angle roofs less than 35deg seem to take on most of the damage > incidents. Avalanches are most prevalent at 32-35+deg. Avys tend not to > slide at less than 32 deg. > > Is the lower edge of the array shaded or partial shade on part of the > array with the low angle winter sun? This allows for ice up on the bottom > edge or on a section of the array. > > Is there a drop zone for the snow? I use 5’ min below the leading edge for > a mountain install I would increase this to higher. > > I know this sounds obvious - Is there a snow fence or obstruction (door > shed roof) below the array? > > > > I now install esp. on lower angle roofs a mid-third rail & use 50% more > contact to the roof points (cheap array life insurance). > > If using a micro inverter or optimizer – attach this to the panel so it > flexes with the panel if necessary not the rail mount system. Watch out for > bolts that stick up close to the back sheet. > > > > Happy Hollar Daze all! > > _________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! > > C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com > > W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com > > *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: jay pozner via RE-wrenches > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: jay pozner > Bcc: > Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2024 17:39:42 +0000 > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] De-icing panels off grid > I have gone around this many times on this one. It's interesting to hear > all the perspectives of peers whom I greatly respect. In revisiting this I > think context is really important. There are so many factors that can add > up to "tip" the scales to favor this idea that one professional might or > might not consider. I have seen a fair amount of destruction of PV from > snow, and of course the disruption in PV performance which could then of > course cascade to battery destruction. In trying to avoid the heat idea, > I have made a secondary (small) array mounted vertically on a wall of a > cabin to simply maintain a trickle charge of the batteries of the system > during winter months when the cabin isn't being used, in efforts to keep > the lead acid batteries topped off. Of course it's not perfect if the snow > water content is high, and there is wind, but in an inter-mountain (dry) > snowpack it seems to perform well. > > One idea that I am tilting towards more and more in these unique > circumstances is to power the heat source (heat tape, etc) with the > generator circuit. Of course there needs to be a reasonable sized > generator on site, but for most of my stand alone situations this is more > rule than exception. We can get fancy with a timer (to keep track of > daylight hours) and a photosensor to automatically determine if the array > is substantially covered, but truthfully I bet a simple switch used in > these situations actuated by the system owner might suffice... > > > > > Jay Pozner > > (970) 209-0024 > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 6, 2024 at 9:27 AM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Yes, in deep snow country tall pole mounts can be expensive... especially >> with enough room below so the sliding snow never meets the bottom edge of >> the array. My home system has 5 pole mounts with the bottom edges ~6' above >> the ground. >> >> Now that engineering is mandated, this adds more expense to ensure sure >> the foundation can support the mechanical forces of this configuration. But >> shallow angle roof mounts risk having the bottom edge of the modules get >> ripped off (see attached picture) so here in the Mount Shasta area, this is >> the only thing that works. >> >> There was a thread where people were experimenting with reverse biasing >> modules to cause them to generate heat. I think boB was working on some >> kind of possibility for a charge controller option to do this, but I am not >> sure where that went. >> >> Todd >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thursday, December 5, 2024 5:49pm, "Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches" < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> said: >> >> Todd, >> In general that had been my philosophy, but sometimes pole mounts are >> just logistically to difficult/ expensive - especially large ones. In >> general, if it is a windy location, the snow doesn't stick around that >> long. However, even pole mounts at a steep angle can get encrusted and if >> it doesn't get warm enough or sunny, that can stick on the panels for a >> week or more. I've never considered anything like heat panels or tape, but >> if there is something that works that doesn't harm the panels, then it >> might be a decent option in some cases. >> Howie >> >> On Thu, Dec 5, 2024, 5:15 PM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Passive works best. In big snow country here, I learned the hard way to >>> only do pole mounts... and set the angle steep in the winter. The snow >>> slides off and all is fine. >>> >>> Todd >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thursday, December 5, 2024 1:01pm, "Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches" < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> said: >>> >>> https://glasscareexperts.com/solar-glass-protection/ >>> I’ve never tried it but just heard about these people. From the bio they >>> are the original makers of rain X, but they customized a product, several >>> of them, to clean Pv panels and they also mentioned it can help to shed >>> rain and snow. >>> By the way, Rainx is not approved for such an application. >>> >>> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >>> >>> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >>> >>> *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* >>> >>> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >>> >>> 802.559.1225 >>> >>> On Thu, Dec 5, 2024 at 2:19 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Has anyone successfully used heat panels or cables to melt iced-over >>>> panels (ie. without damaging the panels)? In heavy snow country, or over >>>> periods of freeze/thaw when pelty slushy snow sticks and freezes to panels, >>>> it would be nice to have a safe method of clearing them, especially >>>> off-grid. I remember discussions of the futility of backfeeding panels to >>>> heat them up to accomplish the same, but not about heat tape or pans that >>>> might be worth trying. >>>> Thanks, >>>> Howie Michaelson >>>> Sun Catcher >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> >> Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pureenergysolar at hotmail.com Fri Dec 6 14:49:49 2024 From: pureenergysolar at hotmail.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2024 19:49:49 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Company status In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Same old number should work. I wouldn't expect anyone to answer though. Wayne Irwin President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com PureEnergySolar.com SolarChargingStation.com 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, December 6, 2024 2:09 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Dana Orzel Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Company status REF Outback Out of curiosity are the old tech support #s good or is there new #s? _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com “Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!” -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pieter at offgridenterprises.org Fri Dec 6 14:56:20 2024 From: pieter at offgridenterprises.org (pieter offgridenterprises.org) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2024 19:56:20 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Panel installation in snow country 0.02 In-Reply-To: References: <1733436878.969327382@webmail.finestplanet.com> <1733502384.150623903@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: Howie, We have never tried active ice melting systems, but did have a client ( USCG) try various methods and ultimately gave up for a variety of reasons. Based on that hearsay evidence I would advise against attempting any sort of active Ice melting system. For what it is worth wind farm operators used to use Mop and Glo on turbine rotors to help shed Ice, dirt, and insect contamination and it resulted in noticeable improvement. I have not heard of anybody trying that on Solar, but it would be an easy cheap experiment to treat one or two panels in an array to get a comparison. Pieter Huebner Project Manager Off Grid Enterprises From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, December 6, 2024 1:30 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Howie Michaelson Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel installation in snow country 0.02 I always love how what I imagine to be a simple question often sparks a much wider, interesting conversation on this list. In this instance, I am dealing with an off- grid client in a colder, snowier, cloudier section of Vermont, but not an extreme environment. The panels are mounted on a fixed, 35 degree rack. The client is asking if putting heat pans behind the panels would be ok and useful for dealing with sticky snow/ice scenarios. Having never looked into the option, assuming it was probably a bad idea, I told him as much. But, of course he found an internet site that advertises such things specifically for solar panels. I was fairly skeptical, but since I really had never truly vetted the idea, I figured I would asked all you esteemed colleagues if anyone had any direct experience or knowledge of such things. So that is what I'm wondering about. Has anyone here had any direct, indirect or hearsay knowledge about devices for melting some amount of snow or ice build up off of panels? I'm not thinking this would be the primary method of clearing them, only a way to help get a sticky layer to release. I imagine it would be controlled by a simple on/off switch that the owner deals with as he deemed necessary. I am happy to hear everyone's stories about design, methodology, or recommendations for dealing with snow, since this is an ongoing concern in this part of the world (and hopefully will continue to be), but at the moment I am most interested to get feedback about methods of melting snow. Thanks as always, Howie Sun Catcher On Fri, Dec 6, 2024, 1:52 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches > wrote: Having installed at up to 13,200’ elevation (60° rack mount) and in snow country for most of most of 37 years and dealing with installations by others that almost or completely come off the roof here is my 0.02: Low angle roofs less than 35deg seem to take on most of the damage incidents. Avalanches are most prevalent at 32-35+deg. Avys tend not to slide at less than 32 deg. Is the lower edge of the array shaded or partial shade on part of the array with the low angle winter sun? This allows for ice up on the bottom edge or on a section of the array. Is there a drop zone for the snow? I use 5’ min below the leading edge for a mountain install I would increase this to higher. I know this sounds obvious - Is there a snow fence or obstruction (door shed roof) below the array? I now install esp. on lower angle roofs a mid-third rail & use 50% more contact to the roof points (cheap array life insurance). If using a micro inverter or optimizer – attach this to the panel so it flexes with the panel if necessary not the rail mount system. Watch out for bolts that stick up close to the back sheet. Happy Hollar Daze all! _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com “Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!” ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: jay pozner via RE-wrenches > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: jay pozner > Bcc: Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2024 17:39:42 +0000 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] De-icing panels off grid I have gone around this many times on this one. It's interesting to hear all the perspectives of peers whom I greatly respect. In revisiting this I think context is really important. There are so many factors that can add up to "tip" the scales to favor this idea that one professional might or might not consider. I have seen a fair amount of destruction of PV from snow, and of course the disruption in PV performance which could then of course cascade to battery destruction. In trying to avoid the heat idea, I have made a secondary (small) array mounted vertically on a wall of a cabin to simply maintain a trickle charge of the batteries of the system during winter months when the cabin isn't being used, in efforts to keep the lead acid batteries topped off. Of course it's not perfect if the snow water content is high, and there is wind, but in an inter-mountain (dry) snowpack it seems to perform well. One idea that I am tilting towards more and more in these unique circumstances is to power the heat source (heat tape, etc) with the generator circuit. Of course there needs to be a reasonable sized generator on site, but for most of my stand alone situations this is more rule than exception. We can get fancy with a timer (to keep track of daylight hours) and a photosensor to automatically determine if the array is substantially covered, but truthfully I bet a simple switch used in these situations actuated by the system owner might suffice... [https://lh7-us.googleusercontent.com/H6JwbP-UbgUSyuzQV2aWZugNpii3FYf1ETs8YhCQcRHADLAIEmxif4uaIlW9R2auYnIA6Pl8ZMem69UdeUAiEhaTQYP_F0FHFzvYSl17OdVO2a2Wc5XNXfYgFhFBfKZtToiBeqeArsP2T50bTkbdk_M] Jay Pozner (970) 209-0024 On Fri, Dec 6, 2024 at 9:27 AM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches > wrote: Yes, in deep snow country tall pole mounts can be expensive... especially with enough room below so the sliding snow never meets the bottom edge of the array. My home system has 5 pole mounts with the bottom edges ~6' above the ground. Now that engineering is mandated, this adds more expense to ensure sure the foundation can support the mechanical forces of this configuration. But shallow angle roof mounts risk having the bottom edge of the modules get ripped off (see attached picture) so here in the Mount Shasta area, this is the only thing that works. There was a thread where people were experimenting with reverse biasing modules to cause them to generate heat. I think boB was working on some kind of possibility for a charge controller option to do this, but I am not sure where that went. Todd On Thursday, December 5, 2024 5:49pm, "Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches" > said: Todd, In general that had been my philosophy, but sometimes pole mounts are just logistically to difficult/ expensive - especially large ones. In general, if it is a windy location, the snow doesn't stick around that long. However, even pole mounts at a steep angle can get encrusted and if it doesn't get warm enough or sunny, that can stick on the panels for a week or more. I've never considered anything like heat panels or tape, but if there is something that works that doesn't harm the panels, then it might be a decent option in some cases. Howie On Thu, Dec 5, 2024, 5:15 PM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches > wrote: Passive works best. In big snow country here, I learned the hard way to only do pole mounts... and set the angle steep in the winter. The snow slides off and all is fine. Todd On Thursday, December 5, 2024 1:01pm, "Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches" > said: https://glasscareexperts.com/solar-glass-protection/ I’ve never tried it but just heard about these people. From the bio they are the original makers of rain X, but they customized a product, several of them, to clean Pv panels and they also mentioned it can help to shed rain and snow. By the way, Rainx is not approved for such an application. Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!! dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 On Thu, Dec 5, 2024 at 2:19 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches > wrote: Has anyone successfully used heat panels or cables to melt iced-over panels (ie. without damaging the panels)? In heavy snow country, or over periods of freeze/thaw when pelty slushy snow sticks and freezes to panels, it would be nice to have a safe method of clearing them, especially off-grid. I remember discussions of the futility of backfeeding panels to heat them up to accomplish the same, but not about heat tape or pans that might be worth trying. Thanks, Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Dec 6 15:08:16 2024 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2024 20:08:16 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Panel installation in snow country 0.02 In-Reply-To: References: <1733436878.969327382@webmail.finestplanet.com> <1733502384.150623903@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: Starting last winter on Powder mornings I have been using my Milwaukee M18 leaf blower to clear the truck of snow. This conversation got me thinking about using this for my tracking array too........... Thanks again for the conversation _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: pieter offgridenterprises.org via RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel installation in snow country 0.02 Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2024 19:56:20 +0000 Size: 67381 URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Dec 6 21:30:50 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2024 18:30:50 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Panel installation in snow country 0.02 In-Reply-To: References: <1733436878.969327382@webmail.finestplanet.com> <1733502384.150623903@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: <62e4c826a13936b7f6c5acbceb383cf3@mail.gmail.com> Pieter: Interesting. One would think the Coast Guard would have access to the space lasers. These should easily melt off any snow accumulation. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *pieter offgridenterprises.org via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Friday, December 6, 2024 11:56 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* pieter offgridenterprises.org *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel installation in snow country 0.02 Howie, We have never tried active ice melting systems, but did have a client ( USCG) try various methods and ultimately gave up for a variety of reasons. Based on that hearsay evidence I would advise against attempting any sort of active Ice melting system. For what it is worth wind farm operators used to use Mop and Glo on turbine rotors to help shed Ice, dirt, and insect contamination and it resulted in noticeable improvement. I have not heard of anybody trying that on Solar, but it would be an easy cheap experiment to treat one or two panels in an array to get a comparison. Pieter Huebner Project Manager Off Grid Enterprises *From:* RE-wrenches *On Behalf Of *Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Friday, December 6, 2024 1:30 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Howie Michaelson *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel installation in snow country 0.02 I always love how what I imagine to be a simple question often sparks a much wider, interesting conversation on this list. In this instance, I am dealing with an off- grid client in a colder, snowier, cloudier section of Vermont, but not an extreme environment. The panels are mounted on a fixed, 35 degree rack. The client is asking if putting heat pans behind the panels would be ok and useful for dealing with sticky snow/ice scenarios. Having never looked into the option, assuming it was probably a bad idea, I told him as much. But, of course he found an internet site that advertises such things specifically for solar panels. I was fairly skeptical, but since I really had never truly vetted the idea, I figured I would asked all you esteemed colleagues if anyone had any direct experience or knowledge of such things. So that is what I'm wondering about. Has anyone here had any direct, indirect or hearsay knowledge about devices for melting some amount of snow or ice build up off of panels? I'm not thinking this would be the primary method of clearing them, only a way to help get a sticky layer to release. I imagine it would be controlled by a simple on/off switch that the owner deals with as he deemed necessary. I am happy to hear everyone's stories about design, methodology, or recommendations for dealing with snow, since this is an ongoing concern in this part of the world (and hopefully will continue to be), but at the moment I am most interested to get feedback about methods of melting snow. Thanks as always, Howie Sun Catcher On Fri, Dec 6, 2024, 1:52 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Having installed at up to 13,200’ elevation (60° rack mount) and in snow country for most of most of 37 years and dealing with installations by others that almost or completely come off the roof here is my 0.02: Low angle roofs less than 35deg seem to take on most of the damage incidents. Avalanches are most prevalent at 32-35+deg. Avys tend not to slide at less than 32 deg. Is the lower edge of the array shaded or partial shade on part of the array with the low angle winter sun? This allows for ice up on the bottom edge or on a section of the array. Is there a drop zone for the snow? I use 5’ min below the leading edge for a mountain install I would increase this to higher. I know this sounds obvious - Is there a snow fence or obstruction (door shed roof) below the array? I now install esp. on lower angle roofs a mid-third rail & use 50% more contact to the roof points (cheap array life insurance). If using a micro inverter or optimizer – attach this to the panel so it flexes with the panel if necessary not the rail mount system. Watch out for bolts that stick up close to the back sheet. Happy Hollar Daze all! _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: jay pozner via RE-wrenches To: RE-wrenches Cc: jay pozner Bcc: Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2024 17:39:42 +0000 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] De-icing panels off grid I have gone around this many times on this one. It's interesting to hear all the perspectives of peers whom I greatly respect. In revisiting this I think context is really important. There are so many factors that can add up to "tip" the scales to favor this idea that one professional might or might not consider. I have seen a fair amount of destruction of PV from snow, and of course the disruption in PV performance which could then of course cascade to battery destruction. In trying to avoid the heat idea, I have made a secondary (small) array mounted vertically on a wall of a cabin to simply maintain a trickle charge of the batteries of the system during winter months when the cabin isn't being used, in efforts to keep the lead acid batteries topped off. Of course it's not perfect if the snow water content is high, and there is wind, but in an inter-mountain (dry) snowpack it seems to perform well. One idea that I am tilting towards more and more in these unique circumstances is to power the heat source (heat tape, etc) with the generator circuit. Of course there needs to be a reasonable sized generator on site, but for most of my stand alone situations this is more rule than exception. We can get fancy with a timer (to keep track of daylight hours) and a photosensor to automatically determine if the array is substantially covered, but truthfully I bet a simple switch used in these situations actuated by the system owner might suffice... Jay Pozner (970) 209-0024 On Fri, Dec 6, 2024 at 9:27 AM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Yes, in deep snow country tall pole mounts can be expensive... especially with enough room below so the sliding snow never meets the bottom edge of the array. My home system has 5 pole mounts with the bottom edges ~6' above the ground. Now that engineering is mandated, this adds more expense to ensure sure the foundation can support the mechanical forces of this configuration. But shallow angle roof mounts risk having the bottom edge of the modules get ripped off (see attached picture) so here in the Mount Shasta area, this is the only thing that works. There was a thread where people were experimenting with reverse biasing modules to cause them to generate heat. I think boB was working on some kind of possibility for a charge controller option to do this, but I am not sure where that went. Todd On Thursday, December 5, 2024 5:49pm, "Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches" < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> said: Todd, In general that had been my philosophy, but sometimes pole mounts are just logistically to difficult/ expensive - especially large ones. In general, if it is a windy location, the snow doesn't stick around that long. However, even pole mounts at a steep angle can get encrusted and if it doesn't get warm enough or sunny, that can stick on the panels for a week or more. I've never considered anything like heat panels or tape, but if there is something that works that doesn't harm the panels, then it might be a decent option in some cases. Howie On Thu, Dec 5, 2024, 5:15 PM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Passive works best. In big snow country here, I learned the hard way to only do pole mounts... and set the angle steep in the winter. The snow slides off and all is fine. Todd On Thursday, December 5, 2024 1:01pm, "Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches" < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> said: https://glasscareexperts.com/solar-glass-protection/ I’ve never tried it but just heard about these people. From the bio they are the original makers of rain X, but they customized a product, several of them, to clean Pv panels and they also mentioned it can help to shed rain and snow. By the way, Rainx is not approved for such an application. *Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 On Thu, Dec 5, 2024 at 2:19 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Has anyone successfully used heat panels or cables to melt iced-over panels (ie. without damaging the panels)? In heavy snow country, or over periods of freeze/thaw when pelty slushy snow sticks and freezes to panels, it would be nice to have a safe method of clearing them, especially off-grid. I remember discussions of the futility of backfeeding panels to heat them up to accomplish the same, but not about heat tape or pans that might be worth trying. Thanks, Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Sat Dec 7 19:36:05 2024 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2024 19:36:05 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Panel installation in snow country 0.02 In-Reply-To: References: <1733436878.969327382@webmail.finestplanet.com> <1733502384.150623903@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: I'm starting to think that Vertical panels are the only sure fire way to keep them clear. I did a small cabin years ago with 2 panels on the south wall of the cabin. All they wanted is a few lights and cell phone charging and rarely used in the winter. It worked great. Their Trace 1200 watt inverter was turned off when they were not there and the C40 kept the batteries charged over the winter without any problems. Now I am stressing over an unreachable camp on an island (you may know this one Kirk) where I updated a 12V system with outback inverter and about 1kw of solar which had been shut down in the winter months. I replaced the inverter with a VFX3648, added an FM100, Installed 5 kw of PV on a ground mount at 45 degrees (mistake- should have done 60 degrees or more with more space at the bottom but assumed not much snow there, all to run a Starlink and Optics monitoring and lots of cameras. 60 days into this saga today at 4 pm, the signal was lost. Is it snow or ice on the panels, or just lack of enough sun (which has been minimal) which caused low battery cutoff. Batteries are new AGMs and I set cutoff at 45.2. I didn't want to run them too low. If I had some of the panels vertical and 4' above the ground, I could probably be assured that snow would not stay on long. Our problem here in Vermont is that when the clear weather arrives, it usually comes with frigid cold and ground and pole mounts are kept frozen by the ambient temperature until the sun can warm them up but that doesn't happen with 6" on snow on the face. Only above freezing temperatures or still air with intense sun will clear them. I'm working on a ground mount now that was started by a previous owner of a property where the base for the ground mount array is a post and beam substructure 4 to 8 feet above the ground. I'm thinking about putting 4 panels vertical and 4 at 45 degree angle on the north edge of the structure and 8 panels at a summer angle on the South edge with adequate space for snow shedding. . We have a temporary array at Approx 35 degree angle that has somewhat shed the snow but with no space for snow buildup, the shedding stops. I am planning to build a fence around my garden this summer with PV mounted vertically with the stacks of 110 watt modules I have accumulated from repowering pole mounts. South and North side of garden facing south and the east and west sides facing east and west. Any thoughts on this crazy idea? John Blittersdorf Off Grid Vermont On Fri, Dec 6, 2024 at 1:51 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Having installed at up to 13,200’ elevation (60° rack mount) and in snow > country for most of most of 37 years and dealing with installations by > others that almost or completely come off the roof here is my 0.02: > > > > Low angle roofs less than 35deg seem to take on most of the damage > incidents. Avalanches are most prevalent at 32-35+deg. Avys tend not to > slide at less than 32 deg. > > Is the lower edge of the array shaded or partial shade on part of the > array with the low angle winter sun? This allows for ice up on the bottom > edge or on a section of the array. > > Is there a drop zone for the snow? I use 5’ min below the leading edge for > a mountain install I would increase this to higher. > > I know this sounds obvious - Is there a snow fence or obstruction (door > shed roof) below the array? > > > > I now install esp. on lower angle roofs a mid-third rail & use 50% more > contact to the roof points (cheap array life insurance). > > If using a micro inverter or optimizer – attach this to the panel so it > flexes with the panel if necessary not the rail mount system. Watch out for > bolts that stick up close to the back sheet. > > > > Happy Hollar Daze all! > > _________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! > > C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com > > W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com > > *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Dec 7 19:51:05 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2024 17:51:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Panel installation in snow country 0.02 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2787FD92-C00E-4587-B2C0-E517A66DC37F@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Sat Dec 7 20:42:50 2024 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2024 20:42:50 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Panel installation in snow country 0.02 In-Reply-To: References: <1733436878.969327382@webmail.finestplanet.com> <1733502384.150623903@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: Hey man, Contact me off-line and I will tell you if it’s my old system. *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 On Sat, Dec 7, 2024 at 7:37 PM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I'm starting to think that Vertical panels are the only sure fire way to > keep them clear. I did a small cabin years ago with 2 panels on the south > wall of the cabin. All they wanted is a few lights and cell phone charging > and rarely used in the winter. It worked great. Their Trace 1200 watt > inverter was turned off when they were not there and the C40 kept the > batteries charged over the winter without any problems. Now I am > stressing over an unreachable camp on an island (you may know this one > Kirk) where I updated a 12V system with outback inverter and about 1kw of > solar which had been shut down in the winter months. I replaced the > inverter with > a VFX3648, added an FM100, Installed 5 kw of PV on a ground mount at 45 > degrees (mistake- should have done 60 degrees or more with more space at > the bottom but assumed not much snow there, all to run a Starlink and > Optics monitoring and lots of cameras. 60 days into this saga today at 4 > pm, the signal was lost. Is it snow or ice on the panels, or just lack of > enough sun (which has been minimal) which caused low battery cutoff. > Batteries are new AGMs and I set cutoff at 45.2. I didn't want to run them > too low. If I had some of the panels vertical and 4' above the ground, I > could probably be assured that snow would not stay on long. Our problem > here in Vermont is that when the clear > weather arrives, it usually comes with frigid cold and ground and pole > mounts are kept frozen by the ambient temperature until the sun can warm > them up but that doesn't happen with 6" on snow on the face. Only above > freezing > temperatures or still air with intense sun will clear them. I'm working > on a ground mount now that was started by a previous owner of a property > where the base for the ground mount array is a post and beam substructure 4 > to 8 feet above the ground. I'm thinking about putting 4 panels vertical > and 4 at 45 degree angle on the north edge of the structure and 8 panels at > a summer angle on the South edge with adequate space for snow shedding. . > We have a temporary array at Approx 35 degree angle that has somewhat shed > the snow but with no space for snow buildup, the shedding stops. > > I am planning to build a fence around my garden this summer with PV > mounted vertically with the stacks of 110 watt modules I have accumulated > from repowering pole mounts. South and North side of garden facing south > and the east and west sides facing east and west. Any thoughts on this > crazy idea? > > John Blittersdorf > Off Grid Vermont > > > > On Fri, Dec 6, 2024 at 1:51 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Having installed at up to 13,200’ elevation (60° rack mount) and in snow >> country for most of most of 37 years and dealing with installations by >> others that almost or completely come off the roof here is my 0.02: >> >> >> >> Low angle roofs less than 35deg seem to take on most of the damage >> incidents. Avalanches are most prevalent at 32-35+deg. Avys tend not to >> slide at less than 32 deg. >> >> Is the lower edge of the array shaded or partial shade on part of the >> array with the low angle winter sun? This allows for ice up on the bottom >> edge or on a section of the array. >> >> Is there a drop zone for the snow? I use 5’ min below the leading edge >> for a mountain install I would increase this to higher. >> >> I know this sounds obvious - Is there a snow fence or obstruction (door >> shed roof) below the array? >> >> >> >> I now install esp. on lower angle roofs a mid-third rail & use 50% more >> contact to the roof points (cheap array life insurance). >> >> If using a micro inverter or optimizer – attach this to the panel so it >> flexes with the panel if necessary not the rail mount system. Watch out for >> bolts that stick up close to the back sheet. >> >> >> >> Happy Hollar Daze all! >> >> _________________________________________________________ >> >> Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! >> >> C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com >> >> W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com >> >> *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Sun Dec 8 09:04:41 2024 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2024 06:04:41 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Panel installation in snow country 0.02 In-Reply-To: References: <1733436878.969327382@webmail.finestplanet.com> <1733502384.150623903@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: Here is a very interesting video about vertically mounted bifacial modules - performing surprisingly well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xD1MT-ek05w On Sat, Dec 7, 2024 at 4:36 PM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I'm starting to think that Vertical panels are the only sure fire way to > keep them clear. I did a small cabin years ago with 2 panels on the south > wall of the cabin. All they wanted is a few lights and cell phone charging > and rarely used in the winter. It worked great. Their Trace 1200 watt > inverter was turned off when they were not there and the C40 kept the > batteries charged over the winter without any problems. Now I am > stressing over an unreachable camp on an island (you may know this one > Kirk) where I updated a 12V system with outback inverter and about 1kw of > solar which had been shut down in the winter months. I replaced the > inverter with > a VFX3648, added an FM100, Installed 5 kw of PV on a ground mount at 45 > degrees (mistake- should have done 60 degrees or more with more space at > the bottom but assumed not much snow there, all to run a Starlink and > Optics monitoring and lots of cameras. 60 days into this saga today at 4 > pm, the signal was lost. Is it snow or ice on the panels, or just lack of > enough sun (which has been minimal) which caused low battery cutoff. > Batteries are new AGMs and I set cutoff at 45.2. I didn't want to run them > too low. If I had some of the panels vertical and 4' above the ground, I > could probably be assured that snow would not stay on long. Our problem > here in Vermont is that when the clear > weather arrives, it usually comes with frigid cold and ground and pole > mounts are kept frozen by the ambient temperature until the sun can warm > them up but that doesn't happen with 6" on snow on the face. Only above > freezing > temperatures or still air with intense sun will clear them. I'm working > on a ground mount now that was started by a previous owner of a property > where the base for the ground mount array is a post and beam substructure 4 > to 8 feet above the ground. I'm thinking about putting 4 panels vertical > and 4 at 45 degree angle on the north edge of the structure and 8 panels at > a summer angle on the South edge with adequate space for snow shedding. . > We have a temporary array at Approx 35 degree angle that has somewhat shed > the snow but with no space for snow buildup, the shedding stops. > > I am planning to build a fence around my garden this summer with PV > mounted vertically with the stacks of 110 watt modules I have accumulated > from repowering pole mounts. South and North side of garden facing south > and the east and west sides facing east and west. Any thoughts on this > crazy idea? > > John Blittersdorf > Off Grid Vermont > > > > On Fri, Dec 6, 2024 at 1:51 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Having installed at up to 13,200’ elevation (60° rack mount) and in snow >> country for most of most of 37 years and dealing with installations by >> others that almost or completely come off the roof here is my 0.02: >> >> >> >> Low angle roofs less than 35deg seem to take on most of the damage >> incidents. Avalanches are most prevalent at 32-35+deg. Avys tend not to >> slide at less than 32 deg. >> >> Is the lower edge of the array shaded or partial shade on part of the >> array with the low angle winter sun? This allows for ice up on the bottom >> edge or on a section of the array. >> >> Is there a drop zone for the snow? I use 5’ min below the leading edge >> for a mountain install I would increase this to higher. >> >> I know this sounds obvious - Is there a snow fence or obstruction (door >> shed roof) below the array? >> >> >> >> I now install esp. on lower angle roofs a mid-third rail & use 50% more >> contact to the roof points (cheap array life insurance). >> >> If using a micro inverter or optimizer – attach this to the panel so it >> flexes with the panel if necessary not the rail mount system. Watch out for >> bolts that stick up close to the back sheet. >> >> >> >> Happy Hollar Daze all! >> >> _________________________________________________________ >> >> Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! >> >> C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com >> >> W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com >> >> *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From iesbatteries at gmail.com Sun Dec 8 09:43:33 2024 From: iesbatteries at gmail.com (Daryl DeJoy) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2024 09:43:33 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Panel installation in snow country 0.02 In-Reply-To: References: <1733436878.969327382@webmail.finestplanet.com> <1733502384.150623903@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: On my own arrays in Maine, I always tilted the old Direct Power and Water top of pole mounts to the maximum 60 degrees and spent half an hour giving them a good coat of Rain-X in the late fall. They seemed to shed snow much better until the later snows in March when I was unwilling to get back up there and recoat. Daryl DeJoy NABCEP Certified PVIP since 2006 Island Energy Storage Virus-free.www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> On Sun, Dec 8, 2024 at 9:05 AM david quattro via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Here is a very interesting video about vertically mounted bifacial modules > - performing surprisingly well. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xD1MT-ek05w > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 7, 2024 at 4:36 PM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I'm starting to think that Vertical panels are the only sure fire way to >> keep them clear. I did a small cabin years ago with 2 panels on the south >> wall of the cabin. All they wanted is a few lights and cell phone charging >> and rarely used in the winter. It worked great. Their Trace 1200 watt >> inverter was turned off when they were not there and the C40 kept the >> batteries charged over the winter without any problems. Now I am >> stressing over an unreachable camp on an island (you may know this one >> Kirk) where I updated a 12V system with outback inverter and about 1kw of >> solar which had been shut down in the winter months. I replaced the >> inverter with >> a VFX3648, added an FM100, Installed 5 kw of PV on a ground mount at 45 >> degrees (mistake- should have done 60 degrees or more with more space at >> the bottom but assumed not much snow there, all to run a Starlink and >> Optics monitoring and lots of cameras. 60 days into this saga today at 4 >> pm, the signal was lost. Is it snow or ice on the panels, or just lack of >> enough sun (which has been minimal) which caused low battery cutoff. >> Batteries are new AGMs and I set cutoff at 45.2. I didn't want to run them >> too low. If I had some of the panels vertical and 4' above the ground, I >> could probably be assured that snow would not stay on long. Our problem >> here in Vermont is that when the clear >> weather arrives, it usually comes with frigid cold and ground and pole >> mounts are kept frozen by the ambient temperature until the sun can warm >> them up but that doesn't happen with 6" on snow on the face. Only above >> freezing >> temperatures or still air with intense sun will clear them. I'm working >> on a ground mount now that was started by a previous owner of a property >> where the base for the ground mount array is a post and beam substructure 4 >> to 8 feet above the ground. I'm thinking about putting 4 panels vertical >> and 4 at 45 degree angle on the north edge of the structure and 8 panels at >> a summer angle on the South edge with adequate space for snow shedding. . >> We have a temporary array at Approx 35 degree angle that has somewhat shed >> the snow but with no space for snow buildup, the shedding stops. >> >> I am planning to build a fence around my garden this summer with PV >> mounted vertically with the stacks of 110 watt modules I have accumulated >> from repowering pole mounts. South and North side of garden facing south >> and the east and west sides facing east and west. Any thoughts on this >> crazy idea? >> >> John Blittersdorf >> Off Grid Vermont >> >> >> >> On Fri, Dec 6, 2024 at 1:51 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Having installed at up to 13,200’ elevation (60° rack mount) and in snow >>> country for most of most of 37 years and dealing with installations by >>> others that almost or completely come off the roof here is my 0.02: >>> >>> >>> >>> Low angle roofs less than 35deg seem to take on most of the damage >>> incidents. Avalanches are most prevalent at 32-35+deg. Avys tend not to >>> slide at less than 32 deg. >>> >>> Is the lower edge of the array shaded or partial shade on part of the >>> array with the low angle winter sun? This allows for ice up on the bottom >>> edge or on a section of the array. >>> >>> Is there a drop zone for the snow? I use 5’ min below the leading edge >>> for a mountain install I would increase this to higher. >>> >>> I know this sounds obvious - Is there a snow fence or obstruction (door >>> shed roof) below the array? >>> >>> >>> >>> I now install esp. on lower angle roofs a mid-third rail & use 50% more >>> contact to the roof points (cheap array life insurance). >>> >>> If using a micro inverter or optimizer – attach this to the panel so it >>> flexes with the panel if necessary not the rail mount system. Watch out for >>> bolts that stick up close to the back sheet. >>> >>> >>> >>> Happy Hollar Daze all! >>> >>> _________________________________________________________ >>> >>> Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! >>> >>> C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com >>> >>> W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com >>> >>> *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From garrison.rie at gmail.com Sun Dec 8 10:02:45 2024 From: garrison.rie at gmail.com (Garrison) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2024 09:02:45 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Panel installation in snow country 0.02 Message-ID: <7F2AC481-EBAB-4289-B63F-536908B9F42E@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Sun Dec 8 11:30:15 2024 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2024 09:30:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Panel installation in snow country 0.02 In-Reply-To: <7F2AC481-EBAB-4289-B63F-536908B9F42E@gmail.com> References: <7F2AC481-EBAB-4289-B63F-536908B9F42E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Interesting video! I can understand there will be sites and use cases where vertically mounted bifacial modules are a good solution. I just can't let it slide without saying that every single module install manual I have seen over the past 20 years says: "*do not focus or magnify sunlight with mirrors"* since the current-carrying materials are not rated for the higher current that comes with concentrated irradiance. While he was using mylar, real mirrors can cause fires and personally I would not encourage amateurs to test this out! Just one example, my parents had a fire start in their bathroom from a mirror reflecting sunlight onto a towel. Of course modules can be designed for higher irradiance, but I would bet the cost of larger wires + reflecting materials + cleaning the mirrors tips the scales to prohibitively expensive. Grateful as always for the interesting conversations on the wrenches list! [image: Screenshot 2024-12-08 at 9.11.57 AM.png] Rebekah Hren Licensed Electrical Contractor NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 Tel: 336.266.8800 On Sun, Dec 8, 2024 at 8:03 AM Garrison via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >  > Hi Howie, > > I have found one scenario where heat tape can help with snow on solar. > > As we know, solar panels warm up in the sun and melt snow even when > ambient temperatures are below freezing. The water from this melting snow > drips off the array and slush/snow can slide off the panels. > > On a cold day, in a well insulated home, or a home with large overhangs, > the water dripping off the array will freeze when it hits the roof below > the panels. This can create an ice dam that can be an issue for the roof if > not properly installed, and also create a barrier to snow shedding from the > array. If conditions are right this dam can get quite large and prevent > panels from working for a long time in the winter. I have also seen ice > dams cause damage to roofs and gutter systems and creep under the lowest > row of flat flashings (not micro flashings, yet at least) causing moisture > issues. > > The is not an issue on all roofs, but can be on many flush mount arrays, > on a medium sloped roof (maybe 25-35 degrees), that end maybe 2’ or so from > the gutter. Well insulated homes, and/or homes with large overhangs are > especially good candidates for this type of ice build up. > > In these scenarios a gutter ice melt system that extends up the roof 18” > or so can help eliminate this refreeze issue. > > I don’t think the cost of the ice melt system installation or operation > would be offset by the extra energy you would get from the array, but it > would help prevent ice dams which adds additional value. > > Personally I would never try to mount any type of ice melt directly to > panels. I could see it possibly causing damage to the panels and could also > exacerbate this melting/refreeze/ice dam issue if you melt snow when > ambient/roof surface temps are below freezing. > > Ps. Very interesting vertical east/west video Dave! As we lose net > metering here in Illinois people on time of use with east-west arrays will > retain the most benefit from their grid tied systems. I hadn’t considered > the extreme of vertical bifacial easy-west, but it is very interesting to > see some data. > > Best, > Garrison > > Garrison Riegel > Celestar Solar > (c) 773-515-5168 > (e) garrison at celestarsolar.com > > > On Dec 8, 2024, at 8:05 AM, david quattro via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Here is a very interesting video about vertically mounted bifacial modules > - performing surprisingly well. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xD1MT-ek05w > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 7, 2024 at 4:36 PM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I'm starting to think that Vertical panels are the only sure fire way to >> keep them clear. I did a small cabin years ago with 2 panels on the south >> wall of the cabin. All they wanted is a few lights and cell phone charging >> and rarely used in the winter. It worked great. Their Trace 1200 watt >> inverter was turned off when they were not there and the C40 kept the >> batteries charged over the winter without any problems. Now I am >> stressing over an unreachable camp on an island (you may know this one >> Kirk) where I updated a 12V system with outback inverter and about 1kw of >> solar which had been shut down in the winter months. I replaced the >> inverter with >> a VFX3648, added an FM100, Installed 5 kw of PV on a ground mount at 45 >> degrees (mistake- should have done 60 degrees or more with more space at >> the bottom but assumed not much snow there, all to run a Starlink and >> Optics monitoring and lots of cameras. 60 days into this saga today at 4 >> pm, the signal was lost. Is it snow or ice on the panels, or just lack of >> enough sun (which has been minimal) which caused low battery cutoff. >> Batteries are new AGMs and I set cutoff at 45.2. I didn't want to run them >> too low. If I had some of the panels vertical and 4' above the ground, I >> could probably be assured that snow would not stay on long. Our problem >> here in Vermont is that when the clear >> weather arrives, it usually comes with frigid cold and ground and pole >> mounts are kept frozen by the ambient temperature until the sun can warm >> them up but that doesn't happen with 6" on snow on the face. Only above >> freezing >> temperatures or still air with intense sun will clear them. I'm working >> on a ground mount now that was started by a previous owner of a property >> where the base for the ground mount array is a post and beam substructure 4 >> to 8 feet above the ground. I'm thinking about putting 4 panels vertical >> and 4 at 45 degree angle on the north edge of the structure and 8 panels at >> a summer angle on the South edge with adequate space for snow shedding. . >> We have a temporary array at Approx 35 degree angle that has somewhat shed >> the snow but with no space for snow buildup, the shedding stops. >> >> I am planning to build a fence around my garden this summer with PV >> mounted vertically with the stacks of 110 watt modules I have accumulated >> from repowering pole mounts. South and North side of garden facing south >> and the east and west sides facing east and west. Any thoughts on this >> crazy idea? >> >> John Blittersdorf >> Off Grid Vermont >> >> >> >> On Fri, Dec 6, 2024 at 1:51 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Having installed at up to 13,200’ elevation (60° rack mount) and in snow >>> country for most of most of 37 years and dealing with installations by >>> others that almost or completely come off the roof here is my 0.02: >>> >>> >>> >>> Low angle roofs less than 35deg seem to take on most of the damage >>> incidents. Avalanches are most prevalent at 32-35+deg. Avys tend not to >>> slide at less than 32 deg. >>> >>> Is the lower edge of the array shaded or partial shade on part of the >>> array with the low angle winter sun? This allows for ice up on the bottom >>> edge or on a section of the array. >>> >>> Is there a drop zone for the snow? I use 5’ min below the leading edge >>> for a mountain install I would increase this to higher. >>> >>> I know this sounds obvious - Is there a snow fence or obstruction (door >>> shed roof) below the array? >>> >>> >>> >>> I now install esp. on lower angle roofs a mid-third rail & use 50% more >>> contact to the roof points (cheap array life insurance). >>> >>> If using a micro inverter or optimizer – attach this to the panel so it >>> flexes with the panel if necessary not the rail mount system. Watch out for >>> bolts that stick up close to the back sheet. >>> >>> >>> >>> Happy Hollar Daze all! >>> >>> _________________________________________________________ >>> >>> Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! >>> >>> C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com >>> >>> W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com >>> >>> *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screenshot 2024-12-08 at 9.11.57 AM.png Type: image/png Size: 42051 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Mon Dec 9 09:55:48 2024 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2024 14:55:48 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Panel installation in snow country 0.02 In-Reply-To: References: <1733436878.969327382@webmail.finestplanet.com> <1733502384.150623903@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: <64D550C9-A668-4F07-B41E-41FBE145CAE3@solarwork.com> My Wattsun trackers are programmed to go as steeply vertical as they can for the winter and it’s dramatic comparing how quickly my array is clear organically versus other assorted angles angle is critical Dana Orzel C: 208.721.7003 E- dana at solarwork.com On Dec 8, 2024, at 7:45 AM, Daryl DeJoy via RE-wrenches wrote:  On my own arrays in Maine, I always tilted the old Direct Power and Water top of pole mounts to the maximum 60 degrees and spent half an hour giving them a good coat of Rain-X in the late fall. They seemed to shed snow much better until the later snows in March when I was unwilling to get back up there and recoat. Daryl DeJoy NABCEP Certified PVIP since 2006 Island Energy Storage [https://s-install.avcdn.net/ipm/preview/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif] Virus-free.www.avast.com On Sun, Dec 8, 2024 at 9:05 AM david quattro via RE-wrenches > wrote: Here is a very interesting video about vertically mounted bifacial modules - performing surprisingly well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xD1MT-ek05w On Sat, Dec 7, 2024 at 4:36 PM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches > wrote: I'm starting to think that Vertical panels are the only sure fire way to keep them clear. I did a small cabin years ago with 2 panels on the south wall of the cabin. All they wanted is a few lights and cell phone charging and rarely used in the winter. It worked great. Their Trace 1200 watt inverter was turned off when they were not there and the C40 kept the batteries charged over the winter without any problems. Now I am stressing over an unreachable camp on an island (you may know this one Kirk) where I updated a 12V system with outback inverter and about 1kw of solar which had been shut down in the winter months. I replaced the inverter with a VFX3648, added an FM100, Installed 5 kw of PV on a ground mount at 45 degrees (mistake- should have done 60 degrees or more with more space at the bottom but assumed not much snow there, all to run a Starlink and Optics monitoring and lots of cameras. 60 days into this saga today at 4 pm, the signal was lost. Is it snow or ice on the panels, or just lack of enough sun (which has been minimal) which caused low battery cutoff. Batteries are new AGMs and I set cutoff at 45.2. I didn't want to run them too low. If I had some of the panels vertical and 4' above the ground, I could probably be assured that snow would not stay on long. Our problem here in Vermont is that when the clear weather arrives, it usually comes with frigid cold and ground and pole mounts are kept frozen by the ambient temperature until the sun can warm them up but that doesn't happen with 6" on snow on the face. Only above freezing temperatures or still air with intense sun will clear them. I'm working on a ground mount now that was started by a previous owner of a property where the base for the ground mount array is a post and beam substructure 4 to 8 feet above the ground. I'm thinking about putting 4 panels vertical and 4 at 45 degree angle on the north edge of the structure and 8 panels at a summer angle on the South edge with adequate space for snow shedding. . We have a temporary array at Approx 35 degree angle that has somewhat shed the snow but with no space for snow buildup, the shedding stops. I am planning to build a fence around my garden this summer with PV mounted vertically with the stacks of 110 watt modules I have accumulated from repowering pole mounts. South and North side of garden facing south and the east and west sides facing east and west. Any thoughts on this crazy idea? John Blittersdorf Off Grid Vermont On Fri, Dec 6, 2024 at 1:51 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches > wrote: Having installed at up to 13,200’ elevation (60° rack mount) and in snow country for most of most of 37 years and dealing with installations by others that almost or completely come off the roof here is my 0.02: Low angle roofs less than 35deg seem to take on most of the damage incidents. Avalanches are most prevalent at 32-35+deg. Avys tend not to slide at less than 32 deg. Is the lower edge of the array shaded or partial shade on part of the array with the low angle winter sun? This allows for ice up on the bottom edge or on a section of the array. Is there a drop zone for the snow? I use 5’ min below the leading edge for a mountain install I would increase this to higher. I know this sounds obvious - Is there a snow fence or obstruction (door shed roof) below the array? I now install esp. on lower angle roofs a mid-third rail & use 50% more contact to the roof points (cheap array life insurance). If using a micro inverter or optimizer – attach this to the panel so it flexes with the panel if necessary not the rail mount system. Watch out for bolts that stick up close to the back sheet. Happy Hollar Daze all! _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com “Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!” _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Mon Dec 9 11:30:22 2024 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2024 09:30:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue Planet Energy Alternatives Message-ID: Wrenches, We have two very successful shipping container build-outs that consist of Sol-Ark inverters and Blue Planet HI batteries mated to big ground mount solar arrays. These are both operating as microgrid installations at remote Yellowstone National Park locations. We are midway through the design of a third container and with the exit of Blue Planet from the 48v LFP game we need to source an alternate storage product. These sites are extremely cumbersome to access in Winter and reliability is key. The second aspect to consider is form factor given the confined installation within a standard 40' high cube container (example internal photo attached). The Wrenches list is home to some of the creme de la creme in the offgrid space and I am messaging the list for their recommended alternatives. In our current portfolio of lithium batteries we have Fortress eFlex, Homegrid Stak'd, And Tesla PW/PW2/PW3. Sincerely, Sam [image: OnSite Energy] SAM HARALDSON Operations Specialist (406) 551-6135 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 Locally owned and operated since 2012 [image: B Corporation] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_1864.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 2515846 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Mon Dec 9 11:52:26 2024 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2024 10:52:26 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue Planet Energy Alternatives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Dec 9 11:56:37 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2024 09:56:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue Planet Energy Alternatives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <82C84650-5844-4FC5-85A8-CFBD6712716A@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Mon Dec 9 11:56:49 2024 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2024 09:56:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue Planet Energy Alternatives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > You didn’t mention the kilowatt hours that you’re needing, but I can > imagine it’s quite a lot. I recommended the Pytes V5 battery. > Good point, Maverick, sorry for leaving out that detail. This particular instance will require 45 kWh of storage. Thank you for the Pytes recommendation. - Sam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Mon Dec 9 12:15:39 2024 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2024 11:15:39 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue Planet Energy Alternatives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I recommended Pytes because it’s a heated battery, rack, mountable, and scalable to about 400 kWh. I will also second Jay’s comment about MidNite because I just installed three powerflo16 batteries on an XW Pro and they are also heated. They should communicate with SolArk since they use pylontech protocol. I’m sure by now the Internet can confirm that. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On Dec 9, 2024, at 10:57 AM, Sam Haraldson wrote: > >  >> You didn’t mention the kilowatt hours that you’re needing, but I can imagine it’s quite a lot. I recommended the Pytes V5 battery. > > Good point, Maverick, sorry for leaving out that detail. This particular instance will require 45 kWh of storage. Thank you for the Pytes recommendation. > > - Sam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Dec 9 12:51:42 2024 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2024 09:51:42 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue Planet Energy Alternatives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sam Look at fortress 18.5 max very simular to blue planet in form facture and less money. On Mon, Dec 9, 2024, 8:45 AM Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches, > > We have two very successful shipping container build-outs that consist of > Sol-Ark inverters and Blue Planet HI batteries mated to big ground mount > solar arrays. These are both operating as microgrid installations at > remote Yellowstone National Park locations. We are midway through the > design of a third container and with the exit of Blue Planet from the 48v > LFP game we need to source an alternate storage product. > > These sites are extremely cumbersome to access in Winter and reliability > is key. The second aspect to consider is form factor given the confined > installation within a standard 40' high cube container (example internal > photo attached). The Wrenches list is home to some of the creme de la > creme in the offgrid space and I am messaging the list for their > recommended alternatives. In our current portfolio of lithium batteries we > have Fortress eFlex, Homegrid Stak'd, And Tesla PW/PW2/PW3. > > Sincerely, > Sam > > [image: OnSite Energy] > > > SAM HARALDSON > Operations Specialist > (406) 551-6135 > 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 > > Locally owned and operated since 2012 > [image: B Corporation] > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Dec 9 13:53:00 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2024 10:53:00 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Panel installation in snow country 0.02 In-Reply-To: <64D550C9-A668-4F07-B41E-41FBE145CAE3@solarwork.com> References: <1733436878.969327382@webmail.finestplanet.com> <1733502384.150623903@webmail.finestplanet.com> <64D550C9-A668-4F07-B41E-41FBE145CAE3@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Agree and I only turn on the vertical axis for snow season. For Offgrid the vertical axis is really not needed except for snow in my opinion. Cheers! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [5]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [6] [5] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-12-09 6:55 am, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches wrote: > My Wattsun trackers are programmed to go as steeply vertical as they > can for the winter and it's dramatic comparing how quickly my array is > clear organically versus other assorted angles angle is critical > Dana Orzel > C: 208.721.7003 > E- dana at solarwork.com > >> On Dec 8, 2024, at 7:45 AM, Daryl DeJoy via RE-wrenches >> wrote: > > On my own arrays in Maine, I always tilted the old Direct Power and > Water top of pole mounts to the maximum 60 degrees and spent half an > hour giving them a good coat of Rain-X in the late fall. They seemed to > shed snow much better until the later snows in March when I was > unwilling to get back up there and recoat. > > Daryl DeJoy > NABCEP Certified PVIP since 2006 > Island Energy Storage > > [1] > Virus-free.www.avast.com [1] > > On Sun, Dec 8, 2024 at 9:05 AM david quattro via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Here is a very interesting video about vertically mounted bifacial > modules - performing surprisingly well. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xD1MT-ek05w > > On Sat, Dec 7, 2024 at 4:36 PM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches > wrote: > I'm starting to think that Vertical panels are the only sure fire way > to keep them clear. I did a small cabin years ago with 2 panels on the > south wall of the cabin. All they wanted is a few lights and cell > phone charging > and rarely used in the winter. It worked great. Their Trace 1200 watt > inverter was turned off when they were not there and the C40 kept the > batteries charged over the winter without any problems. Now I am > stressing over an unreachable camp on an island (you may know this one > Kirk) where I updated a 12V system with outback inverter and about 1kw > of solar which had been shut down in the winter months. I replaced the > inverter with > a VFX3648, added an FM100, Installed 5 kw of PV on a ground mount at 45 > degrees (mistake- should have done 60 degrees or more with more space > at the bottom but assumed not much snow there, all to run a Starlink > and Optics monitoring and lots of cameras. 60 days into this saga > today at 4 pm, the signal was lost. Is it snow or ice on the panels, or > just lack of enough sun (which has been minimal) which caused low > battery cutoff. Batteries are new AGMs and I set cutoff at 45.2. I > didn't want to run them too low. If I had some of the panels vertical > and 4' above the ground, I could probably be assured that snow would > not stay on long. Our problem here in Vermont is that when the clear > weather arrives, it usually comes with frigid cold and ground and pole > mounts are kept frozen by the ambient temperature until the sun can > warm them up but that doesn't happen with 6" on snow on the face. Only > above freezing > temperatures or still air with intense sun will clear them. I'm > working on a ground mount now that was started by a previous owner of a > property where the base for the ground mount array is a post and beam > substructure 4 to 8 feet above the ground. I'm thinking about putting 4 > panels vertical and 4 at 45 degree angle on the north edge of the > structure and 8 panels at a summer angle on the South edge with > adequate space for snow shedding. . We have a temporary array at > Approx 35 degree angle that has somewhat shed the snow but with no > space for snow buildup, the shedding stops. > > I am planning to build a fence around my garden this summer with PV > mounted vertically with the stacks of 110 watt modules I have > accumulated from repowering pole mounts. South and North side of garden > facing south and the east and west sides facing east and west. Any > thoughts on this crazy idea? > > John Blittersdorf > Off Grid Vermont > > On Fri, Dec 6, 2024 at 1:51 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Having installed at up to 13,200' elevation (60° rack mount) and in > snow country for most of most of 37 years and dealing with > installations by others that almost or completely come off the roof > here is my 0.02: > > Low angle roofs less than 35deg seem to take on most of the damage > incidents. Avalanches are most prevalent at 32-35+deg. Avys tend not to > slide at less than 32 deg. > > Is the lower edge of the array shaded or partial shade on part of the > array with the low angle winter sun? This allows for ice up on the > bottom edge or on a section of the array. > > Is there a drop zone for the snow? I use 5' min below the leading edge > for a mountain install I would increase this to higher. > > I know this sounds obvious - Is there a snow fence or obstruction (door > shed roof) below the array? > > I now install esp. on lower angle roofs a mid-third rail & use 50% more > contact to the roof points (cheap array life insurance). > > If using a micro inverter or optimizer - attach this to the panel so it > flexes with the panel if necessary not the rail mount system. Watch out > for bolts that stick up close to the back sheet. > > Happy Hollar Daze all! > > _________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! > > C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com > > W - www. greatsolarworks.com [2] www.solarwork.com [3] > > _"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!"_ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [4] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [4] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [4] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail [2] http://greatsolarworks.com [3] http://www.solarwork.com/ [4] http://re-wrenches.org [5] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [6] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Mon Dec 9 15:21:32 2024 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2024 12:21:32 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue Planet Energy Alternatives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Mon Dec 9 20:45:29 2024 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2024 17:45:29 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue Planet Energy Alternatives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Discover Helios battery that's being released soon is what you want for those systems. I'm liking the Midnite AIO/Powerflow combo also. On Mon, Dec 9, 2024 at 12:23 PM MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We just started using the Discover rackmount batteries and they make a > great enclosure for 30 kWh, good price point, solid product. Goes together > nicely. > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > On Dec 9, 2024, at 9:53 AM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Sam > Look at fortress 18.5 max very simular to blue planet in form facture and > less money. > > > On Mon, Dec 9, 2024, 8:45 AM Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Wrenches, >> >> We have two very successful shipping container build-outs that consist of >> Sol-Ark inverters and Blue Planet HI batteries mated to big ground mount >> solar arrays. These are both operating as microgrid installations at >> remote Yellowstone National Park locations. We are midway through the >> design of a third container and with the exit of Blue Planet from the 48v >> LFP game we need to source an alternate storage product. >> >> These sites are extremely cumbersome to access in Winter and reliability >> is key. The second aspect to consider is form factor given the confined >> installation within a standard 40' high cube container (example internal >> photo attached). The Wrenches list is home to some of the creme de la >> creme in the offgrid space and I am messaging the list for their >> recommended alternatives. In our current portfolio of lithium batteries we >> have Fortress eFlex, Homegrid Stak'd, And Tesla PW/PW2/PW3. >> >> Sincerely, >> Sam >> >> [image: OnSite Energy] >> >> >> SAM HARALDSON >> Operations Specialist >> (406) 551-6135 >> 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 >> >> Locally owned and operated since 2012 >> [image: B Corporation] >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue Dec 10 09:56:56 2024 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 07:56:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage battery cabling Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, Can anyone recommend a good vendor and/or cable type for 1000V Dc battery cabling? Thanks in advance! -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Tue Dec 10 10:12:39 2024 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 10:12:39 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage battery cabling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I buy from Allied wire and cable. www.awcwire.com. Multi-rated MTW, or multi-rated DLO flexible cable is best. I've used both in 1000v storage applications On Tue, Dec 10, 2024 at 9:59 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > Can anyone recommend a good vendor and/or cable type for 1000V Dc battery > cabling? > > Thanks in advance! > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Dec 10 10:38:00 2024 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 10:38:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] The Battery Dude Message-ID: <970dbf229ffe6b13dcedd0b22944559e@redwoodalliance.org> Does anyone have experience buying from The Battery Dude https://thebatterydude.com/?srsltid=AfmBOoqXxcb3OswFddRzS7ehtCitVisgZnPXvuXdOViLZ8sxcJyt437Q? [1] They seem to have the best deals, and have free shipping. Thanks, Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ -- Links: ------ [1] https://thebatterydude.com/?srsltid=AfmBOoqXxcb3OswFddRzS7ehtCitVisgZnPXvuXdOViLZ8sxcJyt437Q? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bryan at pv-cables.com Tue Dec 10 13:36:38 2024 From: bryan at pv-cables.com (Bryan Norkunas) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 18:36:38 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage battery cabling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The battery cable we carry at PV-Cables is all 1000VDC rated Thanks, Bryan Norkunas PV-Cables Inc. 989 Milton Ave Ste 1D Ferndale CA 95536 (707) 923-3000 office www.pv-cables.com [cid:bad88164-29cf-497f-8caf-7c7b9a80d367] [cid:7be00fa5-d403-45a1-9cdd-16f50165fc3c] PV-Cables will be closed for the holidays; 12/23/2023 – 01/02/2024 [cid:772e464f-435d-425b-aab4-32d0a6701113] Please print only if necessary. NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by replying to this email, and destroy all copies of the original message. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2024 6:56 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Mac Lewis Subject: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage battery cabling Hello Wrenches, Can anyone recommend a good vendor and/or cable type for 1000V Dc battery cabling? Thanks in advance! -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-kz2riodj.png Type: image/png Size: 78625 bytes Desc: Outlook-kz2riodj.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-a1nirjar.png Type: image/png Size: 3168 bytes Desc: Outlook-a1nirjar.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-kdlyz3qp.png Type: image/png Size: 2978 bytes Desc: Outlook-kdlyz3qp.png URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Dec 10 16:38:34 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 14:38:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] neutral ground bond in EG4 Message-ID: <75D2A339-E71F-4E38-8A9A-409D0564429D@gmail.com> Hi All I just got off the phone with EG4 with the following situation and I wonder if anyone has see this or can comment. With no wires attached, inverter ( LUX 6000XP) I read 120v from L1 to ground and of course 120v to N. Yes it has an internal ground bond option which is turned off. EG4 says this is normal go ahead and wire it up and that it’s fine that the main panel some 15’ away is where that bonding is officially happening. As I was worried that I was going to have 2 ground/neutral bonds. I’ve not seen this with our legacy inverters, could this be some kind of a non solid connection?? I wonder if this is common with these types of inverters? thanks in advance. jay From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Tue Dec 10 16:44:55 2024 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 14:44:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue Planet Energy Alternatives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you to all of you for these recommendations. We'll be analyzing these suggestions carefully. We have multiple Fortress installs in our portfolio and lots of Midnite BOS but haven't yet used their AIO nor battery products. We would be new to any of the products from Pytes or Discover. https://discoverbattery.com/products/lithium-batteries https://www.midnitesolar.com/products.php?menuItem=products&productCat_ID=67&removeSearch=remove https://www.pytesusa.com/ https://www.fortresspower.com/ I don't wish to take up too much of y'all's time but if you have further commentary regarding the following questions I'll happily take it. 1. Did you employ this battery technology alongside a Sol-Ark inverter or did you opt for a different brand ecosystem? And if so, which? 2. How well has the initial programming of whatever inverter architecture you used maintained the load demands and battery health? How long has the system been in operation? 3. If you used Sol-Ark inverters was the programming done in open or closed loop? Sincerely, Sam > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Tue Dec 10 17:47:28 2024 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 14:47:28 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue Planet Energy Alternatives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01E2158B-2CAC-4F89-9054-1013AF2C3149@gmail.com> Sol-ark 15k easy. Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > On Dec 10, 2024, at 1:45 PM, Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Thank you to all of you for these recommendations. We'll be analyzing these suggestions carefully. We have multiple Fortress installs in our portfolio and lots of Midnite BOS but haven't yet used their AIO nor battery products. We would be new to any of the products from Pytes or Discover. > > https://discoverbattery.com/products/lithium-batteries > https://www.midnitesolar.com/products.php?menuItem=products&productCat_ID=67&removeSearch=remove > https://www.pytesusa.com/ > https://www.fortresspower.com/ > > I don't wish to take up too much of y'all's time but if you have further commentary regarding the following questions I'll happily take it. > > Did you employ this battery technology alongside a Sol-Ark inverter or did you opt for a different brand ecosystem? And if so, which? > How well has the initial programming of whatever inverter architecture you used maintained the load demands and battery health? How long has the system been in operation? > If you used Sol-Ark inverters was the programming done in open or closed loop? > > Sincerely, > Sam > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Dec 10 17:59:37 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 15:59:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] neutral ground bond in EG4 In-Reply-To: <75D2A339-E71F-4E38-8A9A-409D0564429D@gmail.com> References: <75D2A339-E71F-4E38-8A9A-409D0564429D@gmail.com> Message-ID: I just got an email back from them saying the following. There is no solid bond but the following will allow voltage to be detected between neutral and ground. Internal EMI filters or transient suppression devices that connect the AC lines to the ground. A small leakage path to ground via these components, which can result in measurable voltage. Is this common with other brands such as sol ark or midnite? thanks jay > On Dec 10, 2024, at 2:38 PM, jay wrote: > > Hi All > > I just got off the phone with EG4 with the following situation and I wonder if anyone has see this or can comment. > > With no wires attached, inverter ( LUX 6000XP) I read 120v from L1 to ground and of course 120v to N. Yes it has an internal ground bond option which is turned off. > > EG4 says this is normal go ahead and wire it up and that it’s fine that the main panel some 15’ away is where that bonding is officially happening. As I was worried that I was going to have 2 ground/neutral bonds. > > I’ve not seen this with our legacy inverters, could this be some kind of a non solid connection?? > > I wonder if this is common with these types of inverters? > > thanks in advance. > > jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Tue Dec 10 18:46:51 2024 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jarvis) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 17:46:51 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] neutral ground bond in EG4 In-Reply-To: References: <75D2A339-E71F-4E38-8A9A-409D0564429D@gmail.com> Message-ID: What voltage would you like it to read or what voltage are you expecting to read? If I am understanding your post, you are measuring 120V Line to Neutral and 120V Line to Ground. Ground has to "sit" somewhere and their explanation of leakage current through the components is reasonable. If concerned about it further, then use your clamp on amp meter and measure the current on the inverter output neutral and ground and make sure you don't have any current flowing on ground. If the inverter is bonded internally and there is another bond at the main panel and you are supply 120V loads, then you would expect about half of the current to be on ground and half on neutral. -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ On Tue, Dec 10, 2024 at 5:00 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I just got an email back from them saying the following. > > > There is no solid bond but the following will allow voltage to be detected > between neutral and ground. > > - Internal EMI filters or transient suppression devices that connect > the AC lines to the ground. > - A small leakage path to ground via these components, which can > result in measurable voltage. > > Is this common with other brands such as sol ark or midnite? > > thanks > > jay > > > On Dec 10, 2024, at 2:38 PM, jay wrote: > > Hi All > > I just got off the phone with EG4 with the following situation and I > wonder if anyone has see this or can comment. > > With no wires attached, inverter ( LUX 6000XP) I read 120v from L1 to > ground and of course 120v to N. Yes it has an internal ground bond option > which is turned off. > > EG4 says this is normal go ahead and wire it up and that it’s fine that > the main panel some 15’ away is where that bonding is officially > happening. As I was worried that I was going to have 2 ground/neutral > bonds. > > I’ve not seen this with our legacy inverters, could this be some kind of a > non solid connection?? > > I wonder if this is common with these types of inverters? > > thanks in advance. > > jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Dec 10 19:08:54 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 17:08:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] neutral ground bond in EG4 In-Reply-To: References: <75D2A339-E71F-4E38-8A9A-409D0564429D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9126DFC4-8B59-4FA7-9097-9FFB44C16F08@gmail.com> Hi James, From my experience with older inverters it would have read zero. When I got the answer from EG4 it makes sense. It also now makes sense that they are so nervous about what grounds are connected to the inverter buss as there is actually a connection to the power electronics. And that got me to thinking about other similar inverters. Sol ark Midnite gro watt thanks again jay > On Dec 10, 2024, at 4:46 PM, James Jarvis via RE-wrenches wrote: > > What voltage would you like it to read or what voltage are you expecting to read? If I am understanding your post, you are measuring 120V Line to Neutral and 120V Line to Ground. Ground has to "sit" somewhere and their explanation of leakage current through the components is reasonable. > > If concerned about it further, then use your clamp on amp meter and measure the current on the inverter output neutral and ground and make sure you don't have any current flowing on ground. If the inverter is bonded internally and there is another bond at the main panel and you are supply 120V loads, then you would expect about half of the current to be on ground and half on neutral. > > -James Jefferson Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > +1-507-454-2727 > http://www.aprsworld.com/ > > > On Tue, Dec 10, 2024 at 5:00 PM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> I just got an email back from them saying the following. >> >> >> There is no solid bond but the following will allow voltage to be detected between neutral and ground. >> Internal EMI filters or transient suppression devices that connect the AC lines to the ground. >> A small leakage path to ground via these components, which can result in measurable voltage. >> Is this common with other brands such as sol ark or midnite? >> >> thanks >> >> jay >> >> >>> On Dec 10, 2024, at 2:38 PM, jay > wrote: >>> >>> Hi All >>> >>> I just got off the phone with EG4 with the following situation and I wonder if anyone has see this or can comment. >>> >>> With no wires attached, inverter ( LUX 6000XP) I read 120v from L1 to ground and of course 120v to N. Yes it has an internal ground bond option which is turned off. >>> >>> EG4 says this is normal go ahead and wire it up and that it’s fine that the main panel some 15’ away is where that bonding is officially happening. As I was worried that I was going to have 2 ground/neutral bonds. >>> >>> I’ve not seen this with our legacy inverters, could this be some kind of a non solid connection?? >>> >>> I wonder if this is common with these types of inverters? >>> >>> thanks in advance. >>> >>> jay >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Tue Dec 10 22:50:35 2024 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 22:50:35 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FM100 Stuck in Silent Mode. Message-ID: HI Wrenches, I have an off grid site on an Island on auto pilot for the winter with no access. The FM 100 has remained in Silent mode even when the Array Voltage is around 150 Volts and battery at 46V I did get a response from Outback Tech support but they couldn't figure out what happened. I suspect that there is a ground or arc fault error which locks it up til manually recycled. The problem is that there is no indication found on Optics that there is a ground fault. We would be totally in the dark except the original small solar array with an Apollo CC with about a kilowatt of solar has been dribbling in enough power to keep above low battery cutoff for a few hours each day. The system was up when I was on the tech support call but has since quit for the day. Has anyone seen this before? John Blittersdorf -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Dec 10 23:02:42 2024 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 21:02:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FM100 Stuck in Silent Mode. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I haven't had an FM 100 go bad yet, but I've seen other models and brands of controllers stay stuck in Silent mode, or Sleep mode, when they failed.   To avoid multiple trips to remote sites, I just swap it out with another, and then deal with getting the faulty controller repaired on my own time.  Magnum used to provide a fresh unit, and as long as I sent the old one back within 30 days, there was no charge. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 12/10/2024 8:50 PM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote: > HI Wrenches, >    I  have an off grid site on an Island on auto pilot for the winter > with no access.  The FM 100 > has remained in Silent mode even when the Array Voltage is around  150 > Volts and battery at 46V > I did get a response from Outback Tech support but they couldn't > figure out what happened. > I suspect that there is a ground or arc fault error which locks it up > til manually recycled.  The problem is that there is no indication > found on Optics that there is a ground fault. > We would be totally in the dark except the original small solar array > with an Apollo CC with > about a kilowatt of solar has been dribbling in enough power to keep > above low battery cutoff > for a few hours each day.  The system was up when I was on the tech > support call but has since quit for the day. Has anyone seen this before? > > John Blittersdorf > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Dec 11 07:29:10 2024 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2024 05:29:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FM100 Stuck in Silent Mode. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi John, For a remote site like this, where I assume reliability is very important, I would disable and pull out the arc fault board. They just aren't reliable and don't have the smarts to auto reset or remotely reset. On Tue, Dec 10, 2024 at 9:03 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I haven't had an FM 100 go bad yet, but I've seen other models and > brands of controllers stay stuck in Silent mode, or Sleep mode, when > they failed. To avoid multiple trips to remote sites, I just swap it > out with another, and then deal with getting the faulty controller > repaired on my own time. Magnum used to provide a fresh unit, and as > long as I sent the old one back within 30 days, there was no charge. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > On 12/10/2024 8:50 PM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote: > > HI Wrenches, > > I have an off grid site on an Island on auto pilot for the winter > > with no access. The FM 100 > > has remained in Silent mode even when the Array Voltage is around 150 > > Volts and battery at 46V > > I did get a response from Outback Tech support but they couldn't > > figure out what happened. > > I suspect that there is a ground or arc fault error which locks it up > > til manually recycled. The problem is that there is no indication > > found on Optics that there is a ground fault. > > We would be totally in the dark except the original small solar array > > with an Apollo CC with > > about a kilowatt of solar has been dribbling in enough power to keep > > above low battery cutoff > > for a few hours each day. The system was up when I was on the tech > > support call but has since quit for the day. Has anyone seen this before? > > > > John Blittersdorf > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gowdyelectriccambria at gmail.com Wed Dec 11 08:23:20 2024 From: gowdyelectriccambria at gmail.com (Jim Gowdy) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2024 05:23:20 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian GS8048 Surge Message-ID: Hi All, Has anyone known an Outback Radian GS8048 to surge. I have a customer that has an offgrid system and a UPS battery backup for their communications / internet and it got fried the other day. The only information I have is that the Optics went offline around midnight and there was no charging or external power inputs happening at that time. -- Jim with Gowdy Electric Cambria, Ca 93428 business 805 927 2630 cell 805 975 5279 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Dec 11 09:10:34 2024 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2024 07:10:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian GS8048 Surge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jim, I haven't seen surging with the Radian. Here is an idea for you. Look for loose or disconnected neutral conductors. This can cause overvoltage events. You may find that the UPS is to blame. If the batteries are bad in the UPS system, they can do strange things. On Wed, Dec 11, 2024 at 6:23 AM Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi All, > Has anyone known an Outback Radian GS8048 to surge. I have a > customer that has an offgrid system and a UPS battery backup for their > communications / internet and it got fried the other day. The only > information I have is that the Optics went offline around midnight and > there was no charging or external power inputs happening at that time. > > -- > Jim with Gowdy Electric > Cambria, Ca 93428 > business 805 927 2630 > cell 805 975 5279 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Wed Dec 11 09:16:35 2024 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2024 09:16:35 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FM100 Stuck in Silent Mode. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: HI Mac I have been thinking about that since the first failure. Have you actually done that. I still have that controller sitting on my "to be repaired shelf. I.m going to try pulling the board on this one and see what happens, A new board did not fix it. John On Wed, Dec 11, 2024 at 7:30 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi John, > > For a remote site like this, where I assume reliability is very > important, I would disable and pull out the arc fault board. They just > aren't reliable and don't have the smarts to auto reset or remotely reset. > > > > On Tue, Dec 10, 2024 at 9:03 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I haven't had an FM 100 go bad yet, but I've seen other models and >> brands of controllers stay stuck in Silent mode, or Sleep mode, when >> they failed. To avoid multiple trips to remote sites, I just swap it >> out with another, and then deal with getting the faulty controller >> repaired on my own time. Magnum used to provide a fresh unit, and as >> long as I sent the old one back within 30 days, there was no charge. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> >> On 12/10/2024 8:50 PM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote: >> > HI Wrenches, >> > I have an off grid site on an Island on auto pilot for the winter >> > with no access. The FM 100 >> > has remained in Silent mode even when the Array Voltage is around 150 >> > Volts and battery at 46V >> > I did get a response from Outback Tech support but they couldn't >> > figure out what happened. >> > I suspect that there is a ground or arc fault error which locks it up >> > til manually recycled. The problem is that there is no indication >> > found on Optics that there is a ground fault. >> > We would be totally in the dark except the original small solar array >> > with an Apollo CC with >> > about a kilowatt of solar has been dribbling in enough power to keep >> > above low battery cutoff >> > for a few hours each day. The system was up when I was on the tech >> > support call but has since quit for the day. Has anyone seen this >> before? >> > >> > John Blittersdorf >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gowdyelectriccambria at gmail.com Wed Dec 11 09:29:44 2024 From: gowdyelectriccambria at gmail.com (Jim Gowdy) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2024 06:29:44 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian GS8048 Surge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Mac, Thanks for the advice. I will look into those things. On Wed, Dec 11, 2024 at 6:11 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Jim, > > I haven't seen surging with the Radian. > > Here is an idea for you. Look for loose or disconnected neutral > conductors. This can cause overvoltage events. > > You may find that the UPS is to blame. If the batteries are bad in the > UPS system, they can do strange things. > > On Wed, Dec 11, 2024 at 6:23 AM Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi All, >> Has anyone known an Outback Radian GS8048 to surge. I have a >> customer that has an offgrid system and a UPS battery backup for their >> communications / internet and it got fried the other day. The only >> information I have is that the Optics went offline around midnight and >> there was no charging or external power inputs happening at that time. >> >> -- >> Jim with Gowdy Electric >> Cambria, Ca 93428 >> business 805 927 2630 >> cell 805 975 5279 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Jim with Gowdy Electric Cambria, Ca 93428 business 805 927 2630 cell 805 975 5279 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Wed Dec 11 12:03:17 2024 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2024 09:03:17 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue Planet Energy Alternatives In-Reply-To: <01E2158B-2CAC-4F89-9054-1013AF2C3149@gmail.com> References: <01E2158B-2CAC-4F89-9054-1013AF2C3149@gmail.com> Message-ID: Discover and Sol-Ark pair well together in closed loop. Minimal fuss with programing. My understanding is that the Midnite battery is best used with their AIO. On Tue, Dec 10, 2024 at 2:48 PM MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Sol-ark 15k easy. > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > On Dec 10, 2024, at 1:45 PM, Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Thank you to all of you for these recommendations. We'll be analyzing > these suggestions carefully. We have multiple Fortress installs in our > portfolio and lots of Midnite BOS but haven't yet used their AIO nor > battery products. We would be new to any of the products from Pytes or > Discover. > > https://discoverbattery.com/products/lithium-batteries > > https://www.midnitesolar.com/products.php?menuItem=products&productCat_ID=67&removeSearch=remove > https://www.pytesusa.com/ > https://www.fortresspower.com/ > > I don't wish to take up too much of y'all's time but if you have further > commentary regarding the following questions I'll happily take it. > > > 1. Did you employ this battery technology alongside a Sol-Ark inverter > or did you opt for a different brand ecosystem? And if so, which? > 2. How well has the initial programming of whatever inverter > architecture you used maintained the load demands and battery health? How > long has the system been in operation? > 3. If you used Sol-Ark inverters was the programming done in open or > closed loop? > > > Sincerely, > Sam > >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed Dec 11 12:15:40 2024 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2024 17:15:40 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue Planet Energy Alternatives In-Reply-To: References: <01E2158B-2CAC-4F89-9054-1013AF2C3149@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sol-ark & Pytes seamless _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Blue Planet Energy Alternatives Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2024 17:03:17 +0000 Size: 23951 URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Wed Dec 11 12:38:47 2024 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2024 12:38:47 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue Planet Energy Alternatives In-Reply-To: References: <01E2158B-2CAC-4F89-9054-1013AF2C3149@gmail.com> Message-ID: FYI, I have successfully paired a Midnite PowerFlo16 battery with an off grid Sol-Ark. Howie Sun Catcher On Wed, Dec 11, 2024, 12:15 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Sol-ark & Pytes seamless > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! > > C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com > > W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com > > *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Michael Morningstar > Bcc: > Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2024 17:03:17 +0000 > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Blue Planet Energy Alternatives > Discover and Sol-Ark pair well together in closed loop. Minimal fuss with > programing. My understanding is that the Midnite battery is best used with > their AIO. > > On Tue, Dec 10, 2024 at 2:48 PM MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Sol-ark 15k easy. >> Michael D Nelson >> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >> 707-684-0064 mobile >> 707-884-1862 office >> www.mdelectricsolar.com >> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >> >> >> On Dec 10, 2024, at 1:45 PM, Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> Thank you to all of you for these recommendations. We'll be analyzing >> these suggestions carefully. We have multiple Fortress installs in our >> portfolio and lots of Midnite BOS but haven't yet used their AIO nor >> battery products. We would be new to any of the products from Pytes or >> Discover. >> >> https://discoverbattery.com/products/lithium-batteries >> >> https://www.midnitesolar.com/products.php?menuItem=products&productCat_ID=67&removeSearch=remove >> https://www.pytesusa.com/ >> https://www.fortresspower.com/ >> >> I don't wish to take up too much of y'all's time but if you have further >> commentary regarding the following questions I'll happily take it. >> >> >> 1. Did you employ this battery technology alongside a Sol-Ark >> inverter or did you opt for a different brand ecosystem? And if so, which? >> 2. How well has the initial programming of whatever inverter >> architecture you used maintained the load demands and battery health? How >> long has the system been in operation? >> 3. If you used Sol-Ark inverters was the programming done in open or >> closed loop? >> >> >> Sincerely, >> Sam >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric Inc > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > CSLB 1116835 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Wed Dec 11 13:12:43 2024 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2024 10:12:43 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FM100 Stuck in Silent Mode. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I had two controllers on the same project stuck in silent mode as well back in the 2019 era. Unfortunately they required replacement along with 5 more in that time frame. For awhile I was scared to power them down once they were working. Lots of free service calls for a while there. Shipping was not always reimbursed either during a time when advanced replacements were not available. Something worth checking is that the internal jumpers are still in the correct positions as this can also signal a fixable Silent mode indication. Many problematic arc fault cards as well that led to me disabling them on every install. Luckily the last 8 installed have not had any issues so apparently they've identified their weaknesses. If Outback doesn't start producing new inventory soon the remaining stock is going to become quite valuable to those sites seeking a drop in replacement. I've designed my equipment layouts over the last few years to accommodate Hawke's Bays, this departure from Outback was a bit more surprising than expected but expected nonetheless. Good luck, Nick On Wed, Dec 11, 2024 at 6:17 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > HI Mac I have been thinking about that since the first failure. > Have you actually done that. I still have that controller sitting on my > "to be repaired shelf. I.m going to try pulling the board on this one and > see what happens, A new board did not fix it. > > John > > On Wed, Dec 11, 2024 at 7:30 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi John, >> >> For a remote site like this, where I assume reliability is very >> important, I would disable and pull out the arc fault board. They just >> aren't reliable and don't have the smarts to auto reset or remotely reset. >> >> >> >> On Tue, Dec 10, 2024 at 9:03 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I haven't had an FM 100 go bad yet, but I've seen other models and >>> brands of controllers stay stuck in Silent mode, or Sleep mode, when >>> they failed. To avoid multiple trips to remote sites, I just swap it >>> out with another, and then deal with getting the faulty controller >>> repaired on my own time. Magnum used to provide a fresh unit, and as >>> long as I sent the old one back within 30 days, there was no charge. >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> >>> On 12/10/2024 8:50 PM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> > HI Wrenches, >>> > I have an off grid site on an Island on auto pilot for the winter >>> > with no access. The FM 100 >>> > has remained in Silent mode even when the Array Voltage is around 150 >>> > Volts and battery at 46V >>> > I did get a response from Outback Tech support but they couldn't >>> > figure out what happened. >>> > I suspect that there is a ground or arc fault error which locks it up >>> > til manually recycled. The problem is that there is no indication >>> > found on Optics that there is a ground fault. >>> > We would be totally in the dark except the original small solar array >>> > with an Apollo CC with >>> > about a kilowatt of solar has been dribbling in enough power to keep >>> > above low battery cutoff >>> > for a few hours each day. The system was up when I was on the tech >>> > support call but has since quit for the day. Has anyone seen this >>> before? >>> > >>> > John Blittersdorf >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> > >>> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > List rules & etiquette: >>> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> > >>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Wed Dec 11 14:06:39 2024 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2024 11:06:39 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Powerflo16 with Radian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello again Wrenches, Some minor developments in this last week and figured I'd share my experiences so others will be prepared and not stuck in the same situation as myself. I was able to test this with a brand new out of the box Radian and another new Powerflo 16 and had the exact same outcome. A single Powerflo16 will not start a Radian. Does not matter if isolating only one of the 4 KW inverter power modules or not, it simply will not work. Midnite has been very responsive and sent me another firmware revision to test but unfortunately it did not get the results intended. However, a quick workaround that yields repeatable success for me is to have an Iota 54v 13 amp DLS converter on the bus and charging the battery before switching on the Radian breakers. This works every time and so far on both sites everything is fine once the inverter is operating. Interestingly, the Radian will boot up and operate with just the 13 amp Iota without the battery breaker even on. Till Midnite can come up with a new firmware version that does the job without an Iota I'm just leaving it on site and setting the Radian LVD at 50.8 which correlates to about 15% SOC. I did receive a voltage vs approximate SOC chart directly from Midnite after asking about it and would seem like this would be something they intend to share but I'll let them jump in if that's what they want to do. A charger setting integration guide would be nice to have as well since the manual is still a bit light on that subject. Definitely seems like they may want to share the current status with all this since I doubt I'm the only one that's going to run into this scenario. Yes of course multiple batteries is likely the solution but in reality I'm not the only one with multiple Radian sites looking to transition from FLA to an affordable LiFePO from a trusted manufacturer like Midnite. As impressive as it is that they can offer this at nearly 20% of what a single Blue Ion was with nearly the same attributes and even more yet I still have customers that struggle to afford even one. Too much missed market potential for this not to work, I trust they will find a solution soon. Have fun out there, Nick On Sat, Nov 9, 2024 at 12:40 PM Nick Lucchese wrote: > Greetings Wrenches, > > Wondering if any of you have successfully paired the new Powerflo16 with a > GS8048-A yet? There is no reason it shouldn't work yet I've unsuccessfully > been to a customer's site three times now without a fix. The Radian setup > had been in use with an FLA Trojan pack for years till their demise due to > the client unknowingly turned off the AC input source to keep them charged > for his backup system lacking PV. Network is too far away therefore I > didn't have Optics otherwise I would have caught it. Have not ruled out > that there may have been another fault with the Radian before all this but > the AC input seemed most logical and was known to be turned off by accident > previously. > > Upon closing the Powerflo battery breaker to inverter the Mate3s lights up > momentarily while briefly receiving full voltage but then DC voltage sinks > to around 2-18vdc then either trips the breaker on the Powerflo16 or lights > up the fault indicator. Spoke with Midnite support and they recommended a > workaround to the BMS pre-charge boot up process but that didn't resolve > the issue either. I originally thought it must be a failed Spare215 power > supply board but after swapping there was no effect. Next return trip I > brought a Rosie with me and everything powered up just fine so I then > figured it would be the Spare 204 board stack but had the same exact effect > when I tried that swap today. My next step is returning to swap the > Spare-205 power control modules but first I'm going to unbox another > Powerflo16 at my shop and pair it with a brand new Radian that has not yet > been cannibalized. I've installed 42 Radians and only had two with failed > Spare-205 control modules but each time it was a similar outcome with them > being the last thing I swapped to success. > > I'm thinking it must be a failed Spare-205 but since the Powerflo has only > been shipping for a couple months I just wanted to run this by the group to > see how many have successfully paired these two components at this point. > The Radian is still under warranty but that seems pretty meaningless at > this point. One way or another this job is going to be a loss at this point > but oddly still having fun working through a new head scratcher. > > Thanks for any insight, Nick > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bruce at mendocinosolar.com Wed Dec 11 14:08:36 2024 From: bruce at mendocinosolar.com (Bruce Erickson) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2024 11:08:36 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SunPower SunVault black start Message-ID: Recently one of our four now-orphaned SunVault systems failed to back up for our customer. On site we found the batteries discharged below cut-in voltage for unknown reasons (no more monitoring, no more tech support). Even though it had been sunny for a few days the system failed to retain a reserve to restart once sun returned. I’m looking for recommendations for 48 volt external chargers for this situation. We’re looking at Iota which only has a 13 amp charger at 48v but does have a plug-in module for controlling LiFePo charging. At 256 amphours of parallel batteries hopefully an 8 or 10 hour charge would get us up to cut-in. I’m also not sure how the Iota will play with any BMS the SunPower batteries might have. Any recommendations for this situation would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance, Bruce Bruce Erickson Mendocino Solar Service 707-937-1701 PO Box 1252 Mendocino, CA 95460 "Serving the Solar System" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: logo.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5686 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Wed Dec 11 14:12:00 2024 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2024 12:12:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FM100 Stuck in Silent Mode. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is a timely thread. Thanks to all for your input. I also have a site with a problematic FM100. The system has 2x FM100s and every morning one of them has required a manual power cycle by the client to get it to start producing. I can get no data remotely through Optics that indicates what’s going on other than that the device just stays in silent mode after it shuts down at the end of the production day. I went down some rabbit holes related to installing a fixed resistor on the BTS sensor circuit to set the measured battery temp at 25º C vs leaving the sensor unconnected with the lithium battery bank. There were some threads on the NAWS forum that indicated ghost temp values from unconnected BTS sensors might a source of the problem. I’m not sure why I didn’t think of the AFCI card as possible cause also. Thankfully I have some spare new FM100s on hand. Looks like a trip out there to swap the device and pull some AFCI cards. I continue to be dismayed at the situation with Outback. I can’t really see them coming back to the market in an incarnation that we will recognize. - despite the various reports to the contrary. I hope I’m wrong. At least (for now) they are still supporting the Optics platform. Luke Christy Renewable energy consultant NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO 81144 719.588.3044 sgsrenewables at gmail.com > On Dec 10, 2024, at 8:50 PM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote: > > HI Wrenches, > I have an off grid site on an Island on auto pilot for the winter with no access. The FM 100 > has remained in Silent mode even when the Array Voltage is around 150 Volts and battery at 46V > I did get a response from Outback Tech support but they couldn't figure out what happened. > I suspect that there is a ground or arc fault error which locks it up til manually recycled. The problem is that there is no indication found on Optics that there is a ground fault. > We would be totally in the dark except the original small solar array with an Apollo CC with > about a kilowatt of solar has been dribbling in enough power to keep above low battery cutoff > for a few hours each day. The system was up when I was on the tech support call but has since quit for the day. Has anyone seen this before? > > John Blittersdorf > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Wed Dec 11 14:17:39 2024 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2024 14:17:39 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FM100 Stuck in Silent Mode. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I had one stuck in silent a couple years ago. Was plain as day after some measurements that PV positive to ground showed the open circuit PV voltage. It had failed internally. A new charge controller fixed it. *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 On Wed, Dec 11, 2024 at 2:13 PM Luke Christy via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > This is a timely thread. Thanks to all for your input. > > I also have a site with a problematic FM100. The system has 2x FM100s and > every morning one of them has required a manual power cycle by the client > to get it to start producing. I can get no data remotely through Optics > that indicates what’s going on other than that the device just stays in > silent mode after it shuts down at the end of the production day. I went > down some rabbit holes related to installing a fixed resistor on the BTS > sensor circuit to set the measured battery temp at 25º C vs leaving the > sensor unconnected with the lithium battery bank. There were some threads > on the NAWS forum that indicated ghost temp values from unconnected BTS > sensors might a source of the problem. I’m not sure why I didn’t think of > the AFCI card as possible cause also. Thankfully I have some spare new > FM100s on hand. Looks like a trip out there to swap the device and pull > some AFCI cards. > > I continue to be dismayed at the situation with Outback. I can’t really > see them coming back to the market in an incarnation that we will > recognize. - despite the various reports to the contrary. I hope I’m wrong. > At least (for now) they are still supporting the Optics platform. > > Luke Christy > Renewable energy consultant > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: > > Solar Gain Services, LLC > PO Box 531 > Monte Vista, CO 81144 > 719.588.3044 > sgsrenewables at gmail.com > > On Dec 10, 2024, at 8:50 PM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > HI Wrenches, > I have an off grid site on an Island on auto pilot for the winter with > no access. The FM 100 > has remained in Silent mode even when the Array Voltage is around 150 > Volts and battery at 46V > I did get a response from Outback Tech support but they couldn't figure > out what happened. > I suspect that there is a ground or arc fault error which locks it up til > manually recycled. The problem is that there is no indication found on > Optics that there is a ground fault. > We would be totally in the dark except the original small solar array with > an Apollo CC with > about a kilowatt of solar has been dribbling in enough power to keep above > low battery cutoff > for a few hours each day. The system was up when I was on the tech > support call but has since quit for the day. Has anyone seen this before? > > John Blittersdorf > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Dec 11 14:22:24 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2024 11:22:24 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Boot-strapping discharged lithium batteries. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bruce: There has been some correspondence here on boot-strapping low SOC lithium batteries in protect mode. Buying an outboard battery charger seems hard to accept when you are standing next to a sophisticated battery charger. We had a few occasions of a large E-vault system shutting down for low charge due to mis calibration of SOC. We restarted the system by disconnecting the closed loop data connection, reprogramming the inverters to think they were operating with a VRLA bank and restarting the system. The battery bank, when restarted came on line just long enough to accept battery charging. Once the SOC came up to acceptable levels we reset the system for a BMS battery and we were back running. Maybe this procedure might work for someone else. I have a step-by-step for doing this with a Sunny Island system if anyone wants to look it over. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Wed, Dec 11, 2024 at 11:08 AM Bruce Erickson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Recently one of our four now-orphaned SunVault systems failed to back up > for our customer. On site we found the batteries discharged below cut-in > voltage for unknown reasons (no more monitoring, no more tech support). > Even though it had been sunny for a few days the system failed to retain a > reserve to restart once sun returned. I’m looking for recommendations for > 48 volt external chargers for this situation. We’re looking at Iota which > only has a 13 amp charger at 48v but does have a plug-in module for > controlling LiFePo charging. At 256 amphours of parallel batteries > hopefully an 8 or 10 hour charge would get us up to cut-in. I’m also not > sure how the Iota will play with any BMS the SunPower batteries might have. > Any recommendations for this situation would be much appreciated. > > Thanks in advance, > Bruce > > Bruce Erickson > Mendocino Solar Service > 707-937-1701 > PO Box 1252 > Mendocino, CA 95460 > > > > "Serving the Solar System" > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: logo.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5686 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Wed Dec 11 14:24:09 2024 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2024 19:24:09 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SunPower SunVault black start In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Bruce, I just had a similar situation, different batteries, and used the Iota DLS 48 / 13 charger. Connected it directly to the cells bypassing the BMS, as it had opened the contactors to the regular power terminals. Took about 1hr of charge for the BMS to power up. I didn’t worry about any specific lithium settings or trying to close loop it, just used it as a jump start. We had other issues with the batteries that ended up being comms problems from being improperly configured preventing contactors from engaging. If it wasn’t for that, I expect would have been able to power up the inverter and resume normal charging within 1hr. Kevin From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Bruce Erickson via RE-wrenches Sent: December-11-24 11:09 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Bruce Erickson Subject: [RE-wrenches] SunPower SunVault black start Recently one of our four now-orphaned SunVault systems failed to back up for our customer. On site we found the batteries discharged below cut-in voltage for unknown reasons (no more monitoring, no more tech support). Even though it had been sunny for a few days the system failed to retain a reserve to restart once sun returned. I’m looking for recommendations for 48 volt external chargers for this situation. We’re looking at Iota which only has a 13 amp charger at 48v but does have a plug-in module for controlling LiFePo charging. At 256 amphours of parallel batteries hopefully an 8 or 10 hour charge would get us up to cut-in. I’m also not sure how the Iota will play with any BMS the SunPower batteries might have. Any recommendations for this situation would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance, Bruce Bruce Erickson Mendocino Solar Service 707-937-1701 PO Box 1252 Mendocino, CA 95460 [cid:image001.jpg at 01DB4BBF.31FD4440] "Serving the Solar System" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5686 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Dec 11 14:36:44 2024 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2024 11:36:44 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SunPower SunVault black start In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Bruce - for what it's worth, we're still able to access our systems with SunPower Pro Fleet Management (https://monitor.sunpower.com/) - I think one of our logins doesn't work, but others do. Fingers crossed it keeps working. Best, August On Wed, Dec 11, 2024 at 11:08 AM Bruce Erickson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Recently one of our four now-orphaned SunVault systems failed to back up > for our customer. On site we found the batteries discharged below cut-in > voltage for unknown reasons (no more monitoring, no more tech support). > Even though it had been sunny for a few days the system failed to retain a > reserve to restart once sun returned. I’m looking for recommendations for > 48 volt external chargers for this situation. We’re looking at Iota which > only has a 13 amp charger at 48v but does have a plug-in module for > controlling LiFePo charging. At 256 amphours of parallel batteries > hopefully an 8 or 10 hour charge would get us up to cut-in. I’m also not > sure how the Iota will play with any BMS the SunPower batteries might have. > Any recommendations for this situation would be much appreciated. > > Thanks in advance, > Bruce > > Bruce Erickson > Mendocino Solar Service > 707-937-1701 > PO Box 1252 > Mendocino, CA 95460 > > > > "Serving the Solar System" > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: logo.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5686 bytes Desc: not available URL: From steve at surrette.com Wed Dec 11 14:45:42 2024 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2024 11:45:42 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Boot-strapping discharged lithium batteries. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: William... I have found that the best way to do this is to get a regulated power supply... You can use a 60V-5A regulated power supply such as this. https://www.amazon.com/Adjustable-Switching-Regulated-Adjustments-Jesverty/dp/B0B7739SMN/ref=sr_1_3?crid=23FQP9GRXJN8V&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.8lw5oh09yqEulTUX5HEVIIDjBTKpHwzMunKsxWbirnjrTcbTeCRMpvBkvecHly3QdpCCneegdeFTlmca1113laVHIMZkY4Y_o01Ju1LnSLeXjKUPqLwojKzLHVlADneIPWCWsvCoWU9M6Fh4YCBs48kp4eECgcZz7yvdMMVVNHeJkxlFjdvtX9yVW3TGV_wq1BAeToAbxIpzVofasQZ96Ct8GRBLW1bVabcCc_RmAhs.4rbtHxDJBEfcDO734UIYkkHpTk6Cr64NgmGhT7Co2B4&dib_tag=se&keywords=60V+Regulated+power+supply&qid=1733945986&sprefix=60v+regulated+power+supply%2Caps%2C173&sr=8-3 I have found that this is a great way to wake up LFP batteries that have gone into protection mode. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Wed, Dec 11, 2024 at 11:22 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Bruce: > > There has been some correspondence here on boot-strapping low SOC lithium > batteries in protect mode. Buying an outboard battery charger seems hard to > accept when you are standing next to a sophisticated battery charger. > > We had a few occasions of a large E-vault system shutting down for low > charge due to mis calibration of SOC. We restarted the system by > disconnecting the closed loop data connection, reprogramming the inverters > to think they were operating with a VRLA bank and restarting the system. > The battery bank, when restarted came on line just long enough to accept > battery charging. > > Once the SOC came up to acceptable levels we reset the system for a BMS > battery and we were back running. > > Maybe this procedure might work for someone else. I have a step-by-step > for doing this with a Sunny Island system if anyone wants to look it over. > > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Wed, Dec 11, 2024 at 11:08 AM Bruce Erickson via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Recently one of our four now-orphaned SunVault systems failed to back up >> for our customer. On site we found the batteries discharged below cut-in >> voltage for unknown reasons (no more monitoring, no more tech support). >> Even though it had been sunny for a few days the system failed to retain a >> reserve to restart once sun returned. I’m looking for recommendations for >> 48 volt external chargers for this situation. We’re looking at Iota which >> only has a 13 amp charger at 48v but does have a plug-in module for >> controlling LiFePo charging. At 256 amphours of parallel batteries >> hopefully an 8 or 10 hour charge would get us up to cut-in. I’m also not >> sure how the Iota will play with any BMS the SunPower batteries might have. >> Any recommendations for this situation would be much appreciated. >> >> Thanks in advance, >> Bruce >> >> Bruce Erickson >> Mendocino Solar Service >> 707-937-1701 >> PO Box 1252 >> Mendocino, CA 95460 >> >> >> >> "Serving the Solar System" >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: logo.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5686 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Dec 11 19:49:48 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2024 17:49:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Powerflo16 with Radian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Wed Dec 11 21:39:39 2024 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2024 20:39:39 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Powerflo16 with Radian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8134AE17-5651-407C-94E5-790B8525B69E@mavericksolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Wed Dec 11 21:43:02 2024 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2024 21:43:02 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Boot-strapping discharged lithium batteries. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: William, I just resusitated an e-Flex that had been warehoused for awhile with the on button depressed. The voltage had dropped to 9 volts. Fortress tech support said to use a small power supply of about 5 amps to initially get the batteries up and then use a larger one such as the IOTA 13 amp to bring it on up. I left my small 2 amp power supply on overnight and it was up to 42 volts the next morning and I topped it of with the IOTA. The other e-Flex I had to recover had a bad fuse which had 51 volts on the battery side and 38.5 V on the BMS side. Fortress sent me a new fuse. I install an IOTA 54-13 on all my off grid systems plugged into a dedicated generator outlet or regular outlet activated with bypass. I wire the DC output directly into the DC bus in the inverter. That allows a generator/bupass output to automatically restart the Lithium batteries. It also can play an important role in supplying emergency power when the main generator has failed. The IOTA can be plugged directly into a small backup generator such as a Honda 2000 or equivalent. That backup system worked flawlessly in a rental ski house when the Generac 12kw failed and no sun was available to run the house with a Fortress E Vault and Radian inverter. With multiple refuelings, the renters saved their ski week and the owner was saved from having to refund thousands of dollars rental fee. Ironically right now I am running my 2000 watt generator right now at my house through the IOTA because I am doing some remodeling and had to take the big generator off line to to reroute the power wires. I hope to get the new wire in tomorrow John Blittersdorf On Wed, Dec 11, 2024 at 2:47 PM Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: William... > > I have found that the best way to do this is to get a regulated power > supply... > > You can use a 60V-5A regulated power supply such as this. > > > https://www.amazon.com/Adjustable-Switching-Regulated-Adjustments-Jesverty/dp/B0B7739SMN/ref=sr_1_3?crid=23FQP9GRXJN8V&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.8lw5oh09yqEulTUX5HEVIIDjBTKpHwzMunKsxWbirnjrTcbTeCRMpvBkvecHly3QdpCCneegdeFTlmca1113laVHIMZkY4Y_o01Ju1LnSLeXjKUPqLwojKzLHVlADneIPWCWsvCoWU9M6Fh4YCBs48kp4eECgcZz7yvdMMVVNHeJkxlFjdvtX9yVW3TGV_wq1BAeToAbxIpzVofasQZ96Ct8GRBLW1bVabcCc_RmAhs.4rbtHxDJBEfcDO734UIYkkHpTk6Cr64NgmGhT7Co2B4&dib_tag=se&keywords=60V+Regulated+power+supply&qid=1733945986&sprefix=60v+regulated+power+supply%2Caps%2C173&sr=8-3 > > I have found that this is a great way to wake up LFP batteries that have > gone into protection mode. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager > t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 > f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for > the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged > material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the > taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If > you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or > destroy this message and all copies. > ------------------------------ > > > On Wed, Dec 11, 2024 at 11:22 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Bruce: >> >> There has been some correspondence here on boot-strapping low SOC lithium >> batteries in protect mode. Buying an outboard battery charger seems hard to >> accept when you are standing next to a sophisticated battery charger. >> >> We had a few occasions of a large E-vault system shutting down for low >> charge due to mis calibration of SOC. We restarted the system by >> disconnecting the closed loop data connection, reprogramming the inverters >> to think they were operating with a VRLA bank and restarting the system. >> The battery bank, when restarted came on line just long enough to accept >> battery charging. >> >> Once the SOC came up to acceptable levels we reset the system for a BMS >> battery and we were back running. >> >> Maybe this procedure might work for someone else. I have a step-by-step >> for doing this with a Sunny Island system if anyone wants to look it over. >> >> >> William Miller >> Miller Solar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 11, 2024 at 11:08 AM Bruce Erickson via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Recently one of our four now-orphaned SunVault systems failed to back up >>> for our customer. On site we found the batteries discharged below cut-in >>> voltage for unknown reasons (no more monitoring, no more tech support). >>> Even though it had been sunny for a few days the system failed to retain a >>> reserve to restart once sun returned. I’m looking for recommendations for >>> 48 volt external chargers for this situation. We’re looking at Iota which >>> only has a 13 amp charger at 48v but does have a plug-in module for >>> controlling LiFePo charging. At 256 amphours of parallel batteries >>> hopefully an 8 or 10 hour charge would get us up to cut-in. I’m also not >>> sure how the Iota will play with any BMS the SunPower batteries might have. >>> Any recommendations for this situation would be much appreciated. >>> >>> Thanks in advance, >>> Bruce >>> >>> Bruce Erickson >>> Mendocino Solar Service >>> 707-937-1701 >>> PO Box 1252 >>> Mendocino, CA 95460 >>> >>> >>> >>> "Serving the Solar System" >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: logo.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5686 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Dec 11 22:24:41 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2024 20:24:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Boot-strapping discharged lithium batteries. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0DE8B65A-7670-4447-B162-41857C85FEEA@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bruce at mendocinosolar.com Thu Dec 12 12:53:50 2024 From: bruce at mendocinosolar.com (Bruce Erickson) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2024 09:53:50 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Boot-strapping discharged lithium batteries. In-Reply-To: <0DE8B65A-7670-4447-B162-41857C85FEEA@gmail.com> References: <0DE8B65A-7670-4447-B162-41857C85FEEA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <18A62DEE-493E-4447-ACD8-7823743180E4@mendocinosolar.com> A DC power supply was recommended to me by a former SunPower field app engineer, but it’s about $1,600. Maybe justifiable if were are going be in the business of black starting lithium batteries now. Does anyone have good information about whether a regulated power supply is necessary versus just a battery charger? Bruce Erickson Mendocino Solar Service 707-937-1701 PO Box 1252 Mendocino, CA 95460 "Serving the Solar System" > On Dec 11, 2024, at 7:24 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > > >> On Dec 11, 2024, at 5:52 PM, Jay wrote: >> >>  >> I’m going to try and fix a black start 4 x fortress E flex tomorrow with a vevor 15 amp 48v charger the customer bought. $100. >> >> I’ll let you know how it goes. >> >> Jay >> >>> On Dec 11, 2024, at 12:47 PM, Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>>  >>> William... >>> >>> I have found that the best way to do this is to get a regulated power supply... >>> >>> You can use a 60V-5A regulated power supply such as this. >>> >>> https://www.amazon.com/Adjustable-Switching-Regulated-Adjustments-Jesverty/dp/B0B7739SMN/ref=sr_1_3?crid=23FQP9GRXJN8V&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.8lw5oh09yqEulTUX5HEVIIDjBTKpHwzMunKsxWbirnjrTcbTeCRMpvBkvecHly3QdpCCneegdeFTlmca1113laVHIMZkY4Y_o01Ju1LnSLeXjKUPqLwojKzLHVlADneIPWCWsvCoWU9M6Fh4YCBs48kp4eECgcZz7yvdMMVVNHeJkxlFjdvtX9yVW3TGV_wq1BAeToAbxIpzVofasQZ96Ct8GRBLW1bVabcCc_RmAhs.4rbtHxDJBEfcDO734UIYkkHpTk6Cr64NgmGhT7Co2B4&dib_tag=se&keywords=60V+Regulated+power+supply&qid=1733945986&sprefix=60v+regulated+power+supply%2Caps%2C173&sr=8-3 >>> >>> I have found that this is a great way to wake up LFP batteries that have gone into protection mode. >>> >>> >>> >>> Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager >>> t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 >>> f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com >>> >>> CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Dec 11, 2024 at 11:22 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> Bruce: >>> >>> There has been some correspondence here on boot-strapping low SOC lithium batteries in protect mode. Buying an outboard battery charger seems hard to accept when you are standing next to a sophisticated battery charger. >>> >>> We had a few occasions of a large E-vault system shutting down for low charge due to mis calibration of SOC. We restarted the system by disconnecting the closed loop data connection, reprogramming the inverters to think they were operating with a VRLA bank and restarting the system. The battery bank, when restarted came on line just long enough to accept battery charging. >>> >>> Once the SOC came up to acceptable levels we reset the system for a BMS battery and we were back running. >>> >>> Maybe this procedure might work for someone else. I have a step-by-step for doing this with a Sunny Island system if anyone wants to look it over. >>> >>> >>> William Miller >>> Miller Solar.com >>> 805-438-5600 >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Dec 11, 2024 at 11:08 AM Bruce Erickson via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> Recently one of our four now-orphaned SunVault systems failed to back up for our customer. On site we found the batteries discharged below cut-in voltage for unknown reasons (no more monitoring, no more tech support). Even though it had been sunny for a few days the system failed to retain a reserve to restart once sun returned. I’m looking for recommendations for 48 volt external chargers for this situation. We’re looking at Iota which only has a 13 amp charger at 48v but does have a plug-in module for controlling LiFePo charging. At 256 amphours of parallel batteries hopefully an 8 or 10 hour charge would get us up to cut-in. I’m also not sure how the Iota will play with any BMS the SunPower batteries might have. Any recommendations for this situation would be much appreciated. >>> >>> Thanks in advance, >>> Bruce >>> >>> Bruce Erickson >>> Mendocino Solar Service >>> 707-937-1701 >>> PO Box 1252 >>> Mendocino, CA 95460 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> "Serving the Solar System" >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: logo.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5686 bytes Desc: not available URL: From steve at surrette.com Thu Dec 12 13:09:11 2024 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2024 10:09:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Boot-strapping discharged lithium batteries. In-Reply-To: <18A62DEE-493E-4447-ACD8-7823743180E4@mendocinosolar.com> References: <0DE8B65A-7670-4447-B162-41857C85FEEA@gmail.com> <18A62DEE-493E-4447-ACD8-7823743180E4@mendocinosolar.com> Message-ID: Power supply costs have decreased considerably. Twenty-plus years ago, they were about ten times the current cost. Now, you can get a 60v 5amp supply for less than 90 dollars. For a bit more current, I like to use two 30-volt ten-amp supplies (in Series). When LFP batteries shut down due to low battery protection, they often output less than 10 volts. A standard battery charger often needs a minimum battery voltage to power up. A few, like the Victron IP series battery chargers, have a power supply mode, but most inverters/chargers need a minimum voltage to wake up. Having a DC power supply is often needed to jump-start these lithium-based batteries. Plug the power supply into the generator, set the power supply to the nominal voltage, and usually, a few minutes to a few hours on the regulated power supply will wake up the BMS. If the customer has discharged the battery very low, or it's been in the protection mode for a long time, it could take days to wake up; in these cases, you need to be very careful as cell damage could have occurred, and you should also monitor battery temperature when attempting to recover. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t+1.902.597.4020m+1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 esteve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Thu, Dec 12, 2024 at 9:54 AM Bruce Erickson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > A DC power supply was recommended to me by a former SunPower field app > engineer, but it’s about $1,600. Maybe justifiable if were are going be in > the business of black starting lithium batteries now. Does anyone have good > information about whether a regulated power supply is necessary versus just > a battery charger? > > Bruce Erickson > Mendocino Solar Service > 707-937-1701 > PO Box 1252 > Mendocino, CA 95460 > > > > "Serving the Solar System" > > > > > > On Dec 11, 2024, at 7:24 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > > On Dec 11, 2024, at 5:52 PM, Jay wrote: > >  > I’m going to try and fix a black start 4 x fortress E flex tomorrow with > a vevor 15 amp 48v charger the customer bought. $100. > > I’ll let you know how it goes. > > Jay > > On Dec 11, 2024, at 12:47 PM, Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > William... > > I have found that the best way to do this is to get a regulated power > supply... > > You can use a 60V-5A regulated power supply such as this. > > > https://www.amazon.com/Adjustable-Switching-Regulated-Adjustments-Jesverty/dp/B0B7739SMN/ref=sr_1_3?crid=23FQP9GRXJN8V&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.8lw5oh09yqEulTUX5HEVIIDjBTKpHwzMunKsxWbirnjrTcbTeCRMpvBkvecHly3QdpCCneegdeFTlmca1113laVHIMZkY4Y_o01Ju1LnSLeXjKUPqLwojKzLHVlADneIPWCWsvCoWU9M6Fh4YCBs48kp4eECgcZz7yvdMMVVNHeJkxlFjdvtX9yVW3TGV_wq1BAeToAbxIpzVofasQZ96Ct8GRBLW1bVabcCc_RmAhs.4rbtHxDJBEfcDO734UIYkkHpTk6Cr64NgmGhT7Co2B4&dib_tag=se&keywords=60V+Regulated+power+supply&qid=1733945986&sprefix=60v+regulated+power+supply%2Caps%2C173&sr=8-3 > > I have found that this is a great way to wake up LFP batteries that have > gone into protection mode. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager > t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 > f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for > the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged > material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the > taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If > you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or > destroy this message and all copies. > ------------------------------ > > > On Wed, Dec 11, 2024 at 11:22 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Bruce: >> >> There has been some correspondence here on boot-strapping low SOC lithium >> batteries in protect mode. Buying an outboard battery charger seems hard to >> accept when you are standing next to a sophisticated battery charger. >> >> We had a few occasions of a large E-vault system shutting down for low >> charge due to mis calibration of SOC. We restarted the system by >> disconnecting the closed loop data connection, reprogramming the inverters >> to think they were operating with a VRLA bank and restarting the system. >> The battery bank, when restarted came on line just long enough to accept >> battery charging. >> >> Once the SOC came up to acceptable levels we reset the system for a BMS >> battery and we were back running. >> >> Maybe this procedure might work for someone else. I have a step-by-step >> for doing this with a Sunny Island system if anyone wants to look it over. >> >> >> William Miller >> Miller Solar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 11, 2024 at 11:08 AM Bruce Erickson via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Recently one of our four now-orphaned SunVault systems failed to back up >>> for our customer. On site we found the batteries discharged below cut-in >>> voltage for unknown reasons (no more monitoring, no more tech support). >>> Even though it had been sunny for a few days the system failed to retain a >>> reserve to restart once sun returned. I’m looking for recommendations for >>> 48 volt external chargers for this situation. We’re looking at Iota which >>> only has a 13 amp charger at 48v but does have a plug-in module for >>> controlling LiFePo charging. At 256 amphours of parallel batteries >>> hopefully an 8 or 10 hour charge would get us up to cut-in. I’m also not >>> sure how the Iota will play with any BMS the SunPower batteries might have. >>> Any recommendations for this situation would be much appreciated. >>> >>> Thanks in advance, >>> Bruce >>> >>> Bruce Erickson >>> Mendocino Solar Service >>> 707-937-1701 >>> PO Box 1252 >>> Mendocino, CA 95460 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> "Serving the Solar System" >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: logo.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5686 bytes Desc: not available URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Thu Dec 12 13:10:04 2024 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2024 11:10:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Boot-strapping discharged lithium batteries. In-Reply-To: <18A62DEE-493E-4447-ACD8-7823743180E4@mendocinosolar.com> References: <0DE8B65A-7670-4447-B162-41857C85FEEA@gmail.com> <18A62DEE-493E-4447-ACD8-7823743180E4@mendocinosolar.com> Message-ID: This is the power supply I used at Sunpower for this, it's $78 on Amazon. No need for the expensive one shown in the Sunpower tech bulletin. The important things are a constant current setting, and manual fine voltage adjustments. For the first 5% it's important to charge low and slow, we were told. Then you can boost them with a larger charger. https://www.amazon.com/Variable-Adjustable-Alligator-Electronic-Tinkering/dp/B07JVS3G9Z ? Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Thu, Dec 12, 2024 at 10:54 AM Bruce Erickson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > A DC power supply was recommended to me by a former SunPower field app > engineer, but it’s about $1,600. Maybe justifiable if were are going be in > the business of black starting lithium batteries now. Does anyone have good > information about whether a regulated power supply is necessary versus just > a battery charger? > > Bruce Erickson > Mendocino Solar Service > 707-937-1701 > PO Box 1252 > Mendocino, CA 95460 > > > > "Serving the Solar System" > > > > > > On Dec 11, 2024, at 7:24 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > > On Dec 11, 2024, at 5:52 PM, Jay wrote: > >  > I’m going to try and fix a black start 4 x fortress E flex tomorrow with > a vevor 15 amp 48v charger the customer bought. $100. > > I’ll let you know how it goes. > > Jay > > On Dec 11, 2024, at 12:47 PM, Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > William... > > I have found that the best way to do this is to get a regulated power > supply... > > You can use a 60V-5A regulated power supply such as this. > > > https://www.amazon.com/Adjustable-Switching-Regulated-Adjustments-Jesverty/dp/B0B7739SMN/ref=sr_1_3?crid=23FQP9GRXJN8V&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.8lw5oh09yqEulTUX5HEVIIDjBTKpHwzMunKsxWbirnjrTcbTeCRMpvBkvecHly3QdpCCneegdeFTlmca1113laVHIMZkY4Y_o01Ju1LnSLeXjKUPqLwojKzLHVlADneIPWCWsvCoWU9M6Fh4YCBs48kp4eECgcZz7yvdMMVVNHeJkxlFjdvtX9yVW3TGV_wq1BAeToAbxIpzVofasQZ96Ct8GRBLW1bVabcCc_RmAhs.4rbtHxDJBEfcDO734UIYkkHpTk6Cr64NgmGhT7Co2B4&dib_tag=se&keywords=60V+Regulated+power+supply&qid=1733945986&sprefix=60v+regulated+power+supply%2Caps%2C173&sr=8-3 > > I have found that this is a great way to wake up LFP batteries that have > gone into protection mode. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager > t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 > f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for > the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged > material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the > taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If > you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or > destroy this message and all copies. > ------------------------------ > > > On Wed, Dec 11, 2024 at 11:22 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Bruce: >> >> There has been some correspondence here on boot-strapping low SOC lithium >> batteries in protect mode. Buying an outboard battery charger seems hard to >> accept when you are standing next to a sophisticated battery charger. >> >> We had a few occasions of a large E-vault system shutting down for low >> charge due to mis calibration of SOC. We restarted the system by >> disconnecting the closed loop data connection, reprogramming the inverters >> to think they were operating with a VRLA bank and restarting the system. >> The battery bank, when restarted came on line just long enough to accept >> battery charging. >> >> Once the SOC came up to acceptable levels we reset the system for a BMS >> battery and we were back running. >> >> Maybe this procedure might work for someone else. I have a step-by-step >> for doing this with a Sunny Island system if anyone wants to look it over. >> >> >> William Miller >> Miller Solar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 11, 2024 at 11:08 AM Bruce Erickson via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Recently one of our four now-orphaned SunVault systems failed to back up >>> for our customer. On site we found the batteries discharged below cut-in >>> voltage for unknown reasons (no more monitoring, no more tech support). >>> Even though it had been sunny for a few days the system failed to retain a >>> reserve to restart once sun returned. I’m looking for recommendations for >>> 48 volt external chargers for this situation. We’re looking at Iota which >>> only has a 13 amp charger at 48v but does have a plug-in module for >>> controlling LiFePo charging. At 256 amphours of parallel batteries >>> hopefully an 8 or 10 hour charge would get us up to cut-in. I’m also not >>> sure how the Iota will play with any BMS the SunPower batteries might have. >>> Any recommendations for this situation would be much appreciated. >>> >>> Thanks in advance, >>> Bruce >>> >>> Bruce Erickson >>> Mendocino Solar Service >>> 707-937-1701 >>> PO Box 1252 >>> Mendocino, CA 95460 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> "Serving the Solar System" >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: logo.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5686 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Thu Dec 12 13:14:22 2024 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2024 11:14:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Boot-strapping discharged lithium batteries. In-Reply-To: <18A62DEE-493E-4447-ACD8-7823743180E4@mendocinosolar.com> References: <0DE8B65A-7670-4447-B162-41857C85FEEA@gmail.com> <18A62DEE-493E-4447-ACD8-7823743180E4@mendocinosolar.com> Message-ID: > > Does anyone have good information about whether a regulated power supply > is necessary versus just a battery charger? > The two battery ecosystems that we've been required to revive are Fortress and Blue Planet. In both of those situations the manufacturers either mailed us or recommended we purchase inexpensive, unregulated 48v nominal chargers. The origins of this conversation started by William was based on how strange it is to have all of this expensive charging equipment while the fallback plan is a $50 battery maintainer. I tend to agree with him it feels absurd but on the other hand, when the manufacturer makes a repair recommendation we generally follow their protocol. - Sam, OnSite Energy, Inc. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Thu Dec 12 16:02:02 2024 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2024 21:02:02 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Frozen LPF batteries - damaged or salvageable? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, I wanted to follow up on my results, as it relates to some current threads on Boot-strapping discharged Lithium batteries. This off-grid project had 3 x 20 kW 48V stacks of Lithium batteries, made by GSL Energy. They sat in an abandoned construction site for 18 months powered off, discharged, through a winter down to -40. At least 3 electricians had worked on this job previously & gave up. The Sol-Ark 15K inverter was installed, but poorly. Everything was dead no power, and no generator pass-through. I temporarily re-wired the generator feed to the load panel as there was no transfer switch installed. The Champion 8.5 kW gen is a poor choice for this system but that's another topic. I warmed it up, gave it an overdue oil change, as it was going to get some use in the coming days. The building had been heated for the last couple weeks and everything was well above freezing. Opening up the stacks found 4 x 12V 400 Ah Lithium batteries, with an external BMS system but no BMS on the individual batteries. Each 12V battery measured around 2V. I disconnected the buss bars and using a 30V 30A power supply set to 27V & charged the 12V batteries in pairs for 30 minutes each. Monitored temperature - didn't rise. They held voltage after that charge. Removed the 30V charger, reconnected buss bars, and wired in a DLS 45/13 power supply and repeated process on the other stacks. Let them charge up for 12 hrs. The BMS powered on. Voltage was now 53V, but the BMS refused to engage the final contactor labelled K3. The display on the battery was showing the SOC at 0%, 0A in, but voltage correct. I surmised that K3 contactor was SOC controlled. I re-wired the DLS chargers so that the CT's would register input current and kept charging. No change. I was able to WhatsApp message, through an interpreter, to support @ GSL Energy with their +16hr time zone. They weren't much help, but gave me some clues. Through trial and error by reprogramming batteries as individual stacks and disconnecting the CANbus cables, got each battery to fully power up and engage K3 contactor. The CAN combiner box was improperly wired. Remedied that, and was able to get the three stacks all working together. Removed the DLS chargers, re-wired the generator input, powered up the Sol Ark 15K and it was behaving oddly. Would power up OK but no AC output unless the generator was run briefly. Finally got it to fully power up, left the system on overnight. Next morning, the K3 contactors opened and system was off. Reset the batteries and re-powered, but no AC output from the Sol Ark. I found the WiFi Dongle and got that online via Starlink. Got Sol Ark tech support on the phone & they got right at it. Impressed. They did a firmware update, factory reset, and reprogram since we just didn't know the history. They also advised the GSL Energy batteries were not data compatible, so disconnected the CAN port to run the batteries open loop. The system then operated properly. Let the generator charge via Sol Ark until all batteries at 100%. Left lots of lights on overnight, batteries were at 80% SOC in the morning, power still on. Put a 4 kW load on the system and battery voltage held. Charged back up with PV that I wired in while waiting for batteries to charge. The batteries appear fine. Time will tell. I hear that Lithium batteries can't tolerate freezing. If this was a FLA or AGM bank at near 0V in -40 they would have frozen, split open, caused a mess, and be destroyed. I'd sure not recommend anyone abusing batteries like this, but it seems Lithium is more tolerant than initially thought. Kevin From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of White, Will via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, November 25, 2024 10:16 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: White, Will Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] [EXTERNAL] Frozen LPF batteries - damaged or salvageable? My understanding is that if lithium-ion batteries freeze, they're destroyed with no hope of recovery. Like Jay said, I'd call the battery manufacturer and ask them. Let us know what they say. Thanks, Will ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches > Sent: Friday, November 22, 2024 12:54 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Cc: Kevin Pegg > Subject: [EXTERNAL] [RE-wrenches] Frozen LPF batteries - damaged or salvageable? CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Hi Wrenches, I've been asked to take on a project that was abandoned for 16 months. It has 3 stacks of 400Ah 51.2V Lithium batteries (gsl-energy) tied to a Sol-Ark. It was running at one point spring of 2023 with generator charging but has been offline dark for over a year. PV is still in crates. The batteries sat in an unheated unfinished building winter 23/24 and it would have got down to -40C (-40F) for weeks during winter cold snaps. The BMS did not power on, did not spend time troubleshooting during the initial assessment as I wanted to learn more. The battery specs say storage no colder than 0c (32F) and operation no colder than -20c (-4F). What I am trying to determine is if those batteries are salvageable, or damaged and if we should just replace them with new. I am also tempted to replace the sol-ark, haven't worked with that brand before but am not impressed with what I have heard from other people's experiences. Kevin Pegg EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. 37471 Hwy 16 E Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2 ________________________________ Please be advised that this email may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us by email by replying to the sender and delete this message. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Dec 13 16:14:42 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2024 16:14:42 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] More Issues with Parallel Sol-Ark 15K System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just a follow-up to this saga... After many many more hours of diagnostics with tech support, often repeated on subsequent calls, I finally had to get irritated enough to demand that they just swap out the inverter. On three different calls they made me take the inverter out of parallel mode and run it standalone to see if it works, and it did. But when put back in parallel, it would fault out again. Today they made me put the subject inverter as the master in parallel mode, and it worked. Then I switched it back to its original slave position and it faulted out again. They had the audacity to tell me that some inverters are just like that and I should use it as the master. Obviously that is a ridiculous resolution to the problem. I demanded that they fix their faulty product under warranty and they are now sending me a replacement board and screen. I have a pretty good degree of confidence that it will fix the problem, but it really should not have been this hard to get to this point. The troubleshooting process is broken at Sol-Ark. There is no continuum of severity that gets issues properly escalated and resolved. Repeated diagnostic measures just frustrate people and do not solve the issue. You have to get upset, and even nasty to speak to a supervisor. Meanwhile, the tier 1 agents are playing a game of telephone, relaying what the higher-ups are telling them to say. Some of them are knowledgeable, but many are just parroting what someone else to whispering in their ear, even when they don't have the full picture. It's like throwing spaghetti at a wall to see what sticks. I will report back when I get the replacement parts and try them out. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Sat, Nov 9, 2024, 10:15 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I wrote in another thread about an off-grid quad Sol-Ark system that was > shutting down due to parallel stop when one of the four inverters > experienced a DC PV fault, and how that shutdown is far from ideal. The > same system is down once again, this time due to an AC fault code. > > The homeowner started getting repeated F18 and F34 AC overcurrent faults > on one of the slave inverters. This, in turn, shut the entire system down > due to parallel stop faults (F41). None of the other units had AC > overcurrent faults, and the load is nowhere near requiring all four > inverters for even the most demanding circumstances. It was designed this > way for redundancy, which I am quickly finding out is not Sol-Ark's strong > suit. > > To diagnose the issue remotely, I had the owner turn off all four load > breakers, all DC PV input, and the AC microinverter input on the GEN > terminals. I had them restart everything (several times). Every time, the > same inverter would have repeated AC overcurrent faults, and the others > would have parallel system faults. Since there were no loads connected by > virtue of the load breakers being open, I suspected this had to be an > internal fault. > > I went to the site, and Sol-Ark Tier 1 tech support had me shut off all > inverters and take the suspect inverter out of parallel operation mode. As > a standalone master it was able to power up and support the entire house > load without issue. Then we reprogrammed it for parallel operation again > and turned everything back on. We were unable to stay on the phone long > enough to determine if this was successful, but ultimately, the fault > returned. I was told to call and ask for Tier 2 next time if it happened > again, which I intend to do on Monday. At this point, the issue can only be > internal to the unit, and I intend to demand warranty replacement of > suspect components or the whole unit. > > I had to get the system running, so I wanted to take the bad inverter out > of the parallel system. I was hoping that simply shutting it down would > work. This is the third of 4 inverters in the Modbus chain. When turning it > off completely (all AC and DC switches disconnected), the 4th inverter > would fault, presumably because the Modbus signal was not being relayed, > but inverters #1 and #2 worked fine. However, I wanted #4 to also continue > working while taking #3 out of service. So then I turned on the battery > disconnect for #3 but left it in the off mode by not pressing the on/off > button, thinking that it would allow relay of the Modbus signal from #2 to > #4. That allowed the system to work momentarily, but then everything > faulted out due to parallel system stop. In other words, I was going to > have to physically take #3 out of the Modbus daisy chain to make this work. > > Of course, I didn't have a long enough Cat5 cable with me, nor a Cat5 > splice connector. So I had to rig something, which I did successfully to > jumper from #2 to #4. But when I turned everything back on, #4 still would > not work. I eventually realized that you have to change the Modbus address > from 04 to 03 in the settings. Apparently, the addresses need to be > sequential for it to work. Once I did this, I was able to get the system up > and running again as a triple-inverter parallel setup. No faults were > observed. So the theory was proven that #3 has an issue internally. > > > Anyway, bottom line, I am disappointed at how one inverter fault takes > down the whole paralleled system, and also how taking a faulted inverter > out of the system requires physical and programming changes. Turning it off > should be sufficient. This is a very poor way to implement a parallel > system that should provide the peace of mind that redundancy implies. Now I > have a customer who thought they were getting a system with failsafe > redundancy that actually requires a service call every time one of the > paralleled units decides it does not want to play nicely with others. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Dec 13 16:43:04 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2024 14:43:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] More Issues with Parallel Sol-Ark 15K System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Fri Dec 13 17:20:20 2024 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2024 14:20:20 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] More Issues with Parallel Sol-Ark 15K System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I wish I didn't know what you guys were talking about :) !!! Both SS and S-A. As I've been going through my learning curve with Midnite's AIO and PF16, both Logan and Rick (and Richard at NAZ) have been there immediately for me and have held my hand the whole time. On Fri, Dec 13, 2024 at 1:43 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Jason > > I had a similar situation at signature solar/eg4. > > Customer was having lots of random issues with 18kpv. That included > multiple shut downs per day. > After a few weeks of going through the same questions and answers I was > able to find a good level 2 tech who agreed to replace the inverter. > They were just locked into it’s a ground loop, or something. And it’s > monitored online. They can look at it. > 14 days later the inverter arrived. > That’s good except it just showed up. No email, saying it shipped, nada. > > > So yeah they just don’t have any concept of tech support. I mean they do > answer the phones but if they don’t have answers what good is it? > I do think it’s an issue with any growing company, more product more > issues. Outback has gone through this process a few times, sometimes good, > sometimes horrible. And of course the owner of Outback is also the owner of > signature/eg4. > > Midnight is different, and I plan to use their stuff when I get a chance. > > FYI. I’ve got a 3 stack fortress 12kw > That has been running perfectly for 8 months now. > > I’d say this is the new way, sucks. > > Jay > > On Dec 13, 2024, at 2:15 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Just a follow-up to this saga... After many many more hours of diagnostics > with tech support, often repeated on subsequent calls, I finally had to get > irritated enough to demand that they just swap out the inverter. On three > different calls they made me take the inverter out of parallel mode and run > it standalone to see if it works, and it did. But when put back in > parallel, it would fault out again. Today they made me put the subject > inverter as the master in parallel mode, and it worked. Then I switched it > back to its original slave position and it faulted out again. They had the > audacity to tell me that some inverters are just like that and I should use > it as the master. Obviously that is a ridiculous resolution to the problem. > I demanded that they fix their faulty product under warranty and they are > now sending me a replacement board and screen. I have a pretty good degree > of confidence that it will fix the problem, but it really should not have > been this hard to get to this point. > > The troubleshooting process is broken at Sol-Ark. There is no continuum of > severity that gets issues properly escalated and resolved. Repeated > diagnostic measures just frustrate people and do not solve the issue. You > have to get upset, and even nasty to speak to a supervisor. Meanwhile, the > tier 1 agents are playing a game of telephone, relaying what the higher-ups > are telling them to say. Some of them are knowledgeable, but many are just > parroting what someone else to whispering in their ear, even when they > don't have the full picture. It's like throwing spaghetti at a wall to see > what sticks. > > I will report back when I get the replacement parts and try them out. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > On Sat, Nov 9, 2024, 10:15 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> I wrote in another thread about an off-grid quad Sol-Ark system that was >> shutting down due to parallel stop when one of the four inverters >> experienced a DC PV fault, and how that shutdown is far from ideal. The >> same system is down once again, this time due to an AC fault code. >> >> The homeowner started getting repeated F18 and F34 AC overcurrent faults >> on one of the slave inverters. This, in turn, shut the entire system down >> due to parallel stop faults (F41). None of the other units had AC >> overcurrent faults, and the load is nowhere near requiring all four >> inverters for even the most demanding circumstances. It was designed this >> way for redundancy, which I am quickly finding out is not Sol-Ark's strong >> suit. >> >> To diagnose the issue remotely, I had the owner turn off all four load >> breakers, all DC PV input, and the AC microinverter input on the GEN >> terminals. I had them restart everything (several times). Every time, the >> same inverter would have repeated AC overcurrent faults, and the others >> would have parallel system faults. Since there were no loads connected by >> virtue of the load breakers being open, I suspected this had to be an >> internal fault. >> >> I went to the site, and Sol-Ark Tier 1 tech support had me shut off all >> inverters and take the suspect inverter out of parallel operation mode. As >> a standalone master it was able to power up and support the entire house >> load without issue. Then we reprogrammed it for parallel operation again >> and turned everything back on. We were unable to stay on the phone long >> enough to determine if this was successful, but ultimately, the fault >> returned. I was told to call and ask for Tier 2 next time if it happened >> again, which I intend to do on Monday. At this point, the issue can only be >> internal to the unit, and I intend to demand warranty replacement of >> suspect components or the whole unit. >> >> I had to get the system running, so I wanted to take the bad inverter out >> of the parallel system. I was hoping that simply shutting it down would >> work. This is the third of 4 inverters in the Modbus chain. When turning it >> off completely (all AC and DC switches disconnected), the 4th inverter >> would fault, presumably because the Modbus signal was not being relayed, >> but inverters #1 and #2 worked fine. However, I wanted #4 to also continue >> working while taking #3 out of service. So then I turned on the battery >> disconnect for #3 but left it in the off mode by not pressing the on/off >> button, thinking that it would allow relay of the Modbus signal from #2 to >> #4. That allowed the system to work momentarily, but then everything >> faulted out due to parallel system stop. In other words, I was going to >> have to physically take #3 out of the Modbus daisy chain to make this work. >> >> Of course, I didn't have a long enough Cat5 cable with me, nor a Cat5 >> splice connector. So I had to rig something, which I did successfully to >> jumper from #2 to #4. But when I turned everything back on, #4 still would >> not work. I eventually realized that you have to change the Modbus address >> from 04 to 03 in the settings. Apparently, the addresses need to be >> sequential for it to work. Once I did this, I was able to get the system up >> and running again as a triple-inverter parallel setup. No faults were >> observed. So the theory was proven that #3 has an issue internally. >> >> >> Anyway, bottom line, I am disappointed at how one inverter fault takes >> down the whole paralleled system, and also how taking a faulted inverter >> out of the system requires physical and programming changes. Turning it off >> should be sufficient. This is a very poor way to implement a parallel >> system that should provide the peace of mind that redundancy implies. Now I >> have a customer who thought they were getting a system with failsafe >> redundancy that actually requires a service call every time one of the >> paralleled units decides it does not want to play nicely with others. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Dec 13 19:41:44 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2024 17:41:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] More Issues with Parallel Sol-Ark 15K System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Fri Dec 13 19:50:27 2024 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2024 16:50:27 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] More Issues with Parallel Sol-Ark 15K System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Any further investigation into the hardware differences between the newer 15k and the original 15k I mentioned before? That was the only thing that fixed the issue for us. We had to insist they replaced it with a newer matching inverter. I should have made note of the serial numbers to try to narrow down the time frame when they changed the design. The newer design has a small circuit board bolted to the bottom of the enclosure that wasn't present in the original.. On Sat, Nov 9, 2024, 7:16 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I wrote in another thread about an off-grid quad Sol-Ark system that was > shutting down due to parallel stop when one of the four inverters > experienced a DC PV fault, and how that shutdown is far from ideal. The > same system is down once again, this time due to an AC fault code. > > The homeowner started getting repeated F18 and F34 AC overcurrent faults > on one of the slave inverters. This, in turn, shut the entire system down > due to parallel stop faults (F41). None of the other units had AC > overcurrent faults, and the load is nowhere near requiring all four > inverters for even the most demanding circumstances. It was designed this > way for redundancy, which I am quickly finding out is not Sol-Ark's strong > suit. > > To diagnose the issue remotely, I had the owner turn off all four load > breakers, all DC PV input, and the AC microinverter input on the GEN > terminals. I had them restart everything (several times). Every time, the > same inverter would have repeated AC overcurrent faults, and the others > would have parallel system faults. Since there were no loads connected by > virtue of the load breakers being open, I suspected this had to be an > internal fault. > > I went to the site, and Sol-Ark Tier 1 tech support had me shut off all > inverters and take the suspect inverter out of parallel operation mode. As > a standalone master it was able to power up and support the entire house > load without issue. Then we reprogrammed it for parallel operation again > and turned everything back on. We were unable to stay on the phone long > enough to determine if this was successful, but ultimately, the fault > returned. I was told to call and ask for Tier 2 next time if it happened > again, which I intend to do on Monday. At this point, the issue can only be > internal to the unit, and I intend to demand warranty replacement of > suspect components or the whole unit. > > I had to get the system running, so I wanted to take the bad inverter out > of the parallel system. I was hoping that simply shutting it down would > work. This is the third of 4 inverters in the Modbus chain. When turning it > off completely (all AC and DC switches disconnected), the 4th inverter > would fault, presumably because the Modbus signal was not being relayed, > but inverters #1 and #2 worked fine. However, I wanted #4 to also continue > working while taking #3 out of service. So then I turned on the battery > disconnect for #3 but left it in the off mode by not pressing the on/off > button, thinking that it would allow relay of the Modbus signal from #2 to > #4. That allowed the system to work momentarily, but then everything > faulted out due to parallel system stop. In other words, I was going to > have to physically take #3 out of the Modbus daisy chain to make this work. > > Of course, I didn't have a long enough Cat5 cable with me, nor a Cat5 > splice connector. So I had to rig something, which I did successfully to > jumper from #2 to #4. But when I turned everything back on, #4 still would > not work. I eventually realized that you have to change the Modbus address > from 04 to 03 in the settings. Apparently, the addresses need to be > sequential for it to work. Once I did this, I was able to get the system up > and running again as a triple-inverter parallel setup. No faults were > observed. So the theory was proven that #3 has an issue internally. > > > Anyway, bottom line, I am disappointed at how one inverter fault takes > down the whole paralleled system, and also how taking a faulted inverter > out of the system requires physical and programming changes. Turning it off > should be sufficient. This is a very poor way to implement a parallel > system that should provide the peace of mind that redundancy implies. Now I > have a customer who thought they were getting a system with failsafe > redundancy that actually requires a service call every time one of the > paralleled units decides it does not want to play nicely with others. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Fri Dec 13 20:01:38 2024 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2024 15:01:38 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Message-ID: Wrenches, We maintain a SolarEdge 119kW (564 panels) small commercial grid tied system without ESS that we did not install. We were brought in at the bitter end to commission and get the interconnection agreement with the power company all set up. It has been about 4 years and we have replaced 5 of the 7 inverters and what seems like an endless amount of optimizers. I am toying with the idea of proposing that we move away from SolarEdge. It seems ridiculous on the surface but so is the money spent by the client fixing this system 2 to 3 times a year. Regardless, financially it does not make sense but functionally it is incredibly frustrating for everyone involved to keep fixing this system. What would you do? Aloha, Lou Russo Owner lou at spreesolarsystems.com Office - 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Dec 13 20:32:03 2024 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2024 20:32:03 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] More Issues with Parallel Sol-Ark 15K System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you for this tip. I did look at that today. It appears that all four units have identical hardware. I closely compared them and the circuit boards all appear identical. While one serial number was pretty far away from the other three, that was not the offending unit, and it appears identical to the others. Jason On Fri, Dec 13, 2024, 7:51 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Any further investigation into the hardware differences between the newer > 15k and the original 15k I mentioned before? That was the only thing that > fixed the issue for us. We had to insist they replaced it with a newer > matching inverter. I should have made note of the serial numbers to try to > narrow down the time frame when they changed the design. The newer design > has a small circuit board bolted to the bottom of the enclosure that wasn't > present in the original.. > > > > > On Sat, Nov 9, 2024, 7:16 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I wrote in another thread about an off-grid quad Sol-Ark system that was >> shutting down due to parallel stop when one of the four inverters >> experienced a DC PV fault, and how that shutdown is far from ideal. The >> same system is down once again, this time due to an AC fault code. >> >> The homeowner started getting repeated F18 and F34 AC overcurrent faults >> on one of the slave inverters. This, in turn, shut the entire system down >> due to parallel stop faults (F41). None of the other units had AC >> overcurrent faults, and the load is nowhere near requiring all four >> inverters for even the most demanding circumstances. It was designed this >> way for redundancy, which I am quickly finding out is not Sol-Ark's strong >> suit. >> >> To diagnose the issue remotely, I had the owner turn off all four load >> breakers, all DC PV input, and the AC microinverter input on the GEN >> terminals. I had them restart everything (several times). Every time, the >> same inverter would have repeated AC overcurrent faults, and the others >> would have parallel system faults. Since there were no loads connected by >> virtue of the load breakers being open, I suspected this had to be an >> internal fault. >> >> I went to the site, and Sol-Ark Tier 1 tech support had me shut off all >> inverters and take the suspect inverter out of parallel operation mode. As >> a standalone master it was able to power up and support the entire house >> load without issue. Then we reprogrammed it for parallel operation again >> and turned everything back on. We were unable to stay on the phone long >> enough to determine if this was successful, but ultimately, the fault >> returned. I was told to call and ask for Tier 2 next time if it happened >> again, which I intend to do on Monday. At this point, the issue can only be >> internal to the unit, and I intend to demand warranty replacement of >> suspect components or the whole unit. >> >> I had to get the system running, so I wanted to take the bad inverter out >> of the parallel system. I was hoping that simply shutting it down would >> work. This is the third of 4 inverters in the Modbus chain. When turning it >> off completely (all AC and DC switches disconnected), the 4th inverter >> would fault, presumably because the Modbus signal was not being relayed, >> but inverters #1 and #2 worked fine. However, I wanted #4 to also continue >> working while taking #3 out of service. So then I turned on the battery >> disconnect for #3 but left it in the off mode by not pressing the on/off >> button, thinking that it would allow relay of the Modbus signal from #2 to >> #4. That allowed the system to work momentarily, but then everything >> faulted out due to parallel system stop. In other words, I was going to >> have to physically take #3 out of the Modbus daisy chain to make this work. >> >> Of course, I didn't have a long enough Cat5 cable with me, nor a Cat5 >> splice connector. So I had to rig something, which I did successfully to >> jumper from #2 to #4. But when I turned everything back on, #4 still would >> not work. I eventually realized that you have to change the Modbus address >> from 04 to 03 in the settings. Apparently, the addresses need to be >> sequential for it to work. Once I did this, I was able to get the system up >> and running again as a triple-inverter parallel setup. No faults were >> observed. So the theory was proven that #3 has an issue internally. >> >> >> Anyway, bottom line, I am disappointed at how one inverter fault takes >> down the whole paralleled system, and also how taking a faulted inverter >> out of the system requires physical and programming changes. Turning it off >> should be sufficient. This is a very poor way to implement a parallel >> system that should provide the peace of mind that redundancy implies. Now I >> have a customer who thought they were getting a system with failsafe >> redundancy that actually requires a service call every time one of the >> paralleled units decides it does not want to play nicely with others. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Dec 13 21:25:52 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2024 19:25:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Fri Dec 13 21:52:44 2024 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2024 18:52:44 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Around that time there were some issues with solaredge equipment..specifically bad optimizers the SE tech support affectionately dubbed "sleepy optimizers". We had one job from that production run that we replaced several of the optimizers on.. in general though we've had great luck with solaredge otherwise with very few optimizer failures and the occasional inverter replacement(always straightforward and timely processing of the RMA). Just my experience but this seemed like an appropriate time to chime in. Tyrone Houck Oregon Solarworks LLC LRT #076 541-787-1366 tyronehouck at gmail.com tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com On Fri, Dec 13, 2024, 5:02 PM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches, > > We maintain a SolarEdge 119kW (564 panels) small commercial grid tied > system without ESS that we did not install. We were brought in at the > bitter end to commission and get the interconnection agreement with the > power company all set up. It has been about 4 years and we have replaced 5 > of the 7 inverters and what seems like an endless amount of optimizers. > > I am toying with the idea of proposing that we move away from SolarEdge. > It seems ridiculous on the surface but so is the money spent by the client > fixing this system 2 to 3 times a year. Regardless, financially it does not > make sense but functionally it is incredibly frustrating for everyone > involved to keep fixing this system. > > What would you do? > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > Owner > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > Office - 808 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Fri Dec 13 22:05:21 2024 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (Howard Scot Arey) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2024 21:05:21 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <52C451B8-784A-6246-8505-D94E2EFF63DC@hxcore.ol> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Fri Dec 13 22:27:02 2024 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2024 19:27:02 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge In-Reply-To: <52C451B8-784A-6246-8505-D94E2EFF63DC@hxcore.ol> References: <52C451B8-784A-6246-8505-D94E2EFF63DC@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: If it’s tilt-up arrays, it’s definitely worth it. If it’s flush Mount then.. maybe. I’d tell the owner you simply don’t want to maintain it with Solaredge components. They can either find a different contractor, or let you upgrade the inverters. In my experience Solaredge had a high failure rate, but they made up for it with marginal customer service. I stopped installing their gear years. On Fri, Dec 13, 2024 at 7:05 PM Howard Scot Arey via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > What a swap over...we have a muni project where the higher voltage > optimizers on the 480v inverter allowed us to minimize conductor sizing. > New central inverter would need to support strings that use that size. And > then the labor to remove all those optimizers! But we're replacing one of > those inverters so I hear your argument. Look forward to hearing your > decision. > > *Howard "Scot" Arey* > *Owner, Solar CenTex* > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > TECL 29755 > 254-300-1228 > > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Friday, December 13, 2024 8:54:02 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Tyrone Houck > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge > > Around that time there were some issues with solaredge > equipment..specifically bad optimizers the SE tech support affectionately > dubbed "sleepy optimizers". We had one job from that production run that we > replaced several of the optimizers on.. in general though we've had great > luck with solaredge otherwise with very few optimizer failures and the > occasional inverter replacement(always straightforward and timely > processing of the RMA). Just my experience but this seemed like an > appropriate time to chime in. > > Tyrone Houck > Oregon Solarworks LLC > LRT #076 > 541-787-1366 > tyronehouck at gmail.com > tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com > > > > > On Fri, Dec 13, 2024, 5:02 PM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Wrenches, >> >> We maintain a SolarEdge 119kW (564 panels) small commercial grid tied >> system without ESS that we did not install. We were brought in at the >> bitter end to commission and get the interconnection agreement with the >> power company all set up. It has been about 4 years and we have replaced 5 >> of the 7 inverters and what seems like an endless amount of optimizers. >> >> I am toying with the idea of proposing that we move away from SolarEdge. >> It seems ridiculous on the surface but so is the money spent by the client >> fixing this system 2 to 3 times a year. Regardless, financially it does not >> make sense but functionally it is incredibly frustrating for everyone >> involved to keep fixing this system. >> >> What would you do? >> >> Aloha, >> >> Lou Russo >> Owner >> lou at spreesolarsystems.com >> Office - 808 345 6762 >> Spree Solar Systems LLC >> CT-34322 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Fri Dec 13 23:33:38 2024 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2024 23:33:38 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FM100 Stuck in Silent Mode. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Now that I am getting some data from the island with the old system keeping power up for 6 plus hours....(.started with 2 hours and now with full sun 6 hours. I see on Event History that the FM100 is continually bulk charging then Not charging every minute No actual power produced but sometimes the bulk charging will continue for several minutes and the FM100 status shows bulk charging at 45 to 50 watts regardless of what the array voltage is., then goes back to silent. Has anybody seen this before? Tomorrow is supposed to be sunny so I should see more power if the problem is in fact snow or ice on the array. We had a lot of rain so I had assumed that any snow would have washed off but then here on the mountain we got some sleet and then 2"of snow that I had to scrape off my array. All the solar farms around here have cleared of snow so I can't believe that snow cover is the problem. Yesterday I took the FM100 with the arc fault problem that I had put aside to deal with later, removed the arc fault circuit board and then installed it in my system in place of my FM100. It works just fine. I just installed two FM100's and Radian in a new mountaintop off-grid system and another going in this week on a grid tie backup system. Both are pole mount racks for the solar. I probably should pull the circuit boards out of both of those as they are unattended second homes with months of no use but they are usually accessible after the snowstorms. John .. On Wed, Dec 11, 2024 at 2:17 PM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I had one stuck in silent a couple years ago. Was plain as day after some > measurements that PV positive to ground showed the open circuit PV voltage. > It had failed internally. A new charge controller fixed it. > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > > > On Wed, Dec 11, 2024 at 2:13 PM Luke Christy via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> This is a timely thread. Thanks to all for your input. >> >> I also have a site with a problematic FM100. The system has 2x FM100s and >> every morning one of them has required a manual power cycle by the client >> to get it to start producing. I can get no data remotely through Optics >> that indicates what’s going on other than that the device just stays in >> silent mode after it shuts down at the end of the production day. I went >> down some rabbit holes related to installing a fixed resistor on the BTS >> sensor circuit to set the measured battery temp at 25º C vs leaving the >> sensor unconnected with the lithium battery bank. There were some threads >> on the NAWS forum that indicated ghost temp values from unconnected BTS >> sensors might a source of the problem. I’m not sure why I didn’t think of >> the AFCI card as possible cause also. Thankfully I have some spare new >> FM100s on hand. Looks like a trip out there to swap the device and pull >> some AFCI cards. >> >> I continue to be dismayed at the situation with Outback. I can’t really >> see them coming back to the market in an incarnation that we will >> recognize. - despite the various reports to the contrary. I hope I’m wrong. >> At least (for now) they are still supporting the Optics platform. >> >> Luke Christy >> Renewable energy consultant >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: >> >> Solar Gain Services, LLC >> PO Box 531 >> Monte Vista, CO 81144 >> 719.588.3044 >> sgsrenewables at gmail.com >> >> On Dec 10, 2024, at 8:50 PM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> HI Wrenches, >> I have an off grid site on an Island on auto pilot for the winter >> with no access. The FM 100 >> has remained in Silent mode even when the Array Voltage is around 150 >> Volts and battery at 46V >> I did get a response from Outback Tech support but they couldn't figure >> out what happened. >> I suspect that there is a ground or arc fault error which locks it up til >> manually recycled. The problem is that there is no indication found on >> Optics that there is a ground fault. >> We would be totally in the dark except the original small solar array >> with an Apollo CC with >> about a kilowatt of solar has been dribbling in enough power to keep >> above low battery cutoff >> for a few hours each day. The system was up when I was on the tech >> support call but has since quit for the day. Has anyone seen this before? >> >> John Blittersdorf >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Fri Dec 13 23:35:29 2024 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2024 04:35:29 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] More Issues with Parallel Sol-Ark 15K System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: [sad] Lloyd Hoffstatter reacted to your message: ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jay via RE-wrenches Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2024 12:41:44 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jay Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] More Issues with Parallel Sol-Ark 15K System Oh that’s not encouraging. Care to share the issues. At least the 18kpv is easy to set up. Jay On Dec 13, 2024, at 3:20 PM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:  I wish I didn't know what you guys were talking about :) !!! Both SS and S-A. As I've been going through my learning curve with Midnite's AIO and PF16, both Logan and Rick (and Richard at NAZ) have been there immediately for me and have held my hand the whole time. On Fri, Dec 13, 2024 at 1:43 PM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi Jason I had a similar situation at signature solar/eg4. Customer was having lots of random issues with 18kpv. That included multiple shut downs per day. After a few weeks of going through the same questions and answers I was able to find a good level 2 tech who agreed to replace the inverter. They were just locked into it’s a ground loop, or something. And it’s monitored online. They can look at it. 14 days later the inverter arrived. That’s good except it just showed up. No email, saying it shipped, nada. So yeah they just don’t have any concept of tech support. I mean they do answer the phones but if they don’t have answers what good is it? I do think it’s an issue with any growing company, more product more issues. Outback has gone through this process a few times, sometimes good, sometimes horrible. And of course the owner of Outback is also the owner of signature/eg4. Midnight is different, and I plan to use their stuff when I get a chance. FYI. I’ve got a 3 stack fortress 12kw That has been running perfectly for 8 months now. I’d say this is the new way, sucks. Jay On Dec 13, 2024, at 2:15 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote:  Just a follow-up to this saga... After many many more hours of diagnostics with tech support, often repeated on subsequent calls, I finally had to get irritated enough to demand that they just swap out the inverter. On three different calls they made me take the inverter out of parallel mode and run it standalone to see if it works, and it did. But when put back in parallel, it would fault out again. Today they made me put the subject inverter as the master in parallel mode, and it worked. Then I switched it back to its original slave position and it faulted out again. They had the audacity to tell me that some inverters are just like that and I should use it as the master. Obviously that is a ridiculous resolution to the problem. I demanded that they fix their faulty product under warranty and they are now sending me a replacement board and screen. I have a pretty good degree of confidence that it will fix the problem, but it really should not have been this hard to get to this point. The troubleshooting process is broken at Sol-Ark. There is no continuum of severity that gets issues properly escalated and resolved. Repeated diagnostic measures just frustrate people and do not solve the issue. You have to get upset, and even nasty to speak to a supervisor. Meanwhile, the tier 1 agents are playing a game of telephone, relaying what the higher-ups are telling them to say. Some of them are knowledgeable, but many are just parroting what someone else to whispering in their ear, even when they don't have the full picture. It's like throwing spaghetti at a wall to see what sticks. I will report back when I get the replacement parts and try them out. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Sat, Nov 9, 2024, 10:15 AM Jason Szumlanski > wrote: I wrote in another thread about an off-grid quad Sol-Ark system that was shutting down due to parallel stop when one of the four inverters experienced a DC PV fault, and how that shutdown is far from ideal. The same system is down once again, this time due to an AC fault code. The homeowner started getting repeated F18 and F34 AC overcurrent faults on one of the slave inverters. This, in turn, shut the entire system down due to parallel stop faults (F41). None of the other units had AC overcurrent faults, and the load is nowhere near requiring all four inverters for even the most demanding circumstances. It was designed this way for redundancy, which I am quickly finding out is not Sol-Ark's strong suit. To diagnose the issue remotely, I had the owner turn off all four load breakers, all DC PV input, and the AC microinverter input on the GEN terminals. I had them restart everything (several times). Every time, the same inverter would have repeated AC overcurrent faults, and the others would have parallel system faults. Since there were no loads connected by virtue of the load breakers being open, I suspected this had to be an internal fault. I went to the site, and Sol-Ark Tier 1 tech support had me shut off all inverters and take the suspect inverter out of parallel operation mode. As a standalone master it was able to power up and support the entire house load without issue. Then we reprogrammed it for parallel operation again and turned everything back on. We were unable to stay on the phone long enough to determine if this was successful, but ultimately, the fault returned. I was told to call and ask for Tier 2 next time if it happened again, which I intend to do on Monday. At this point, the issue can only be internal to the unit, and I intend to demand warranty replacement of suspect components or the whole unit. I had to get the system running, so I wanted to take the bad inverter out of the parallel system. I was hoping that simply shutting it down would work. This is the third of 4 inverters in the Modbus chain. When turning it off completely (all AC and DC switches disconnected), the 4th inverter would fault, presumably because the Modbus signal was not being relayed, but inverters #1 and #2 worked fine. However, I wanted #4 to also continue working while taking #3 out of service. So then I turned on the battery disconnect for #3 but left it in the off mode by not pressing the on/off button, thinking that it would allow relay of the Modbus signal from #2 to #4. That allowed the system to work momentarily, but then everything faulted out due to parallel system stop. In other words, I was going to have to physically take #3 out of the Modbus daisy chain to make this work. Of course, I didn't have a long enough Cat5 cable with me, nor a Cat5 splice connector. So I had to rig something, which I did successfully to jumper from #2 to #4. But when I turned everything back on, #4 still would not work. I eventually realized that you have to change the Modbus address from 04 to 03 in the settings. Apparently, the addresses need to be sequential for it to work. Once I did this, I was able to get the system up and running again as a triple-inverter parallel setup. No faults were observed. So the theory was proven that #3 has an issue internally. Anyway, bottom line, I am disappointed at how one inverter fault takes down the whole paralleled system, and also how taking a faulted inverter out of the system requires physical and programming changes. Turning it off should be sufficient. This is a very poor way to implement a parallel system that should provide the peace of mind that redundancy implies. Now I have a customer who thought they were getting a system with failsafe redundancy that actually requires a service call every time one of the paralleled units decides it does not want to play nicely with others. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Sat Dec 14 21:03:50 2024 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2024 20:03:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Boot-strapping discharged lithium batteries. In-Reply-To: <0DE8B65A-7670-4447-B162-41857C85FEEA@gmail.com> References: <0DE8B65A-7670-4447-B162-41857C85FEEA@gmail.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Sun Dec 15 09:42:39 2024 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2024 09:42:39 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FM100 Stuck in Silent Mode. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Latest update. Still no change with full sun. At lease I know that the panels will defrost by themselves. Array voltage = VOC. Anyone have a winterized On Fri, Dec 13, 2024 at 11:33 PM John Blittersdorf < john.blittersdorf at gmail.com> wrote: > Now that I am getting some data from the island with the old system > keeping power up for 6 plus hours....(.started with 2 hours and now with > full sun 6 hours. I see on Event History that the FM100 is continually bulk > charging then Not charging every minute No actual power produced but > sometimes the bulk charging will continue for several minutes and the FM100 > status shows bulk charging at 45 to 50 watts regardless of what the array > voltage is., then goes back to silent. Has anybody seen this before? > Tomorrow is supposed to be sunny so I should see more power if the problem > is in fact snow or ice on the array. We had a lot of rain so I had assumed > that any snow would have washed off but then here on the mountain we got > some sleet and then 2"of snow that I had to scrape off my array. All the > solar farms around here have cleared of snow so I can't believe that snow > cover is the problem. > > Yesterday I took the FM100 with the arc fault problem that I had put aside > to deal with later, removed the arc fault circuit board and then installed > it in my system in place of my FM100. It works just fine. I just installed > two FM100's and Radian in a new mountaintop off-grid system and another > going in this week on a grid tie backup system. Both are pole mount racks > for the solar. I probably should pull the circuit boards out of both of > those as they are unattended second homes with months of no use but they > are usually accessible after the snowstorms. > > John > > > .. > > On Wed, Dec 11, 2024 at 2:17 PM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I had one stuck in silent a couple years ago. Was plain as day after some >> measurements that PV positive to ground showed the open circuit PV voltage. >> It had failed internally. A new charge controller fixed it. >> >> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >> >> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >> >> *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* >> >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> >> 802.559.1225 >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 11, 2024 at 2:13 PM Luke Christy via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> This is a timely thread. Thanks to all for your input. >>> >>> I also have a site with a problematic FM100. The system has 2x FM100s >>> and every morning one of them has required a manual power cycle by the >>> client to get it to start producing. I can get no data remotely through >>> Optics that indicates what’s going on other than that the device just stays >>> in silent mode after it shuts down at the end of the production day. I went >>> down some rabbit holes related to installing a fixed resistor on the BTS >>> sensor circuit to set the measured battery temp at 25º C vs leaving the >>> sensor unconnected with the lithium battery bank. There were some threads >>> on the NAWS forum that indicated ghost temp values from unconnected BTS >>> sensors might a source of the problem. I’m not sure why I didn’t think of >>> the AFCI card as possible cause also. Thankfully I have some spare new >>> FM100s on hand. Looks like a trip out there to swap the device and pull >>> some AFCI cards. >>> >>> I continue to be dismayed at the situation with Outback. I can’t really >>> see them coming back to the market in an incarnation that we will >>> recognize. - despite the various reports to the contrary. I hope I’m wrong. >>> At least (for now) they are still supporting the Optics platform. >>> >>> Luke Christy >>> Renewable energy consultant >>> >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: >>> >>> Solar Gain Services, LLC >>> PO Box 531 >>> Monte Vista, CO 81144 >>> 719.588.3044 >>> sgsrenewables at gmail.com >>> >>> On Dec 10, 2024, at 8:50 PM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> HI Wrenches, >>> I have an off grid site on an Island on auto pilot for the winter >>> with no access. The FM 100 >>> has remained in Silent mode even when the Array Voltage is around 150 >>> Volts and battery at 46V >>> I did get a response from Outback Tech support but they couldn't figure >>> out what happened. >>> I suspect that there is a ground or arc fault error which locks it up >>> til manually recycled. The problem is that there is no indication found on >>> Optics that there is a ground fault. >>> We would be totally in the dark except the original small solar array >>> with an Apollo CC with >>> about a kilowatt of solar has been dribbling in enough power to keep >>> above low battery cutoff >>> for a few hours each day. The system was up when I was on the tech >>> support call but has since quit for the day. Has anyone seen this before? >>> >>> John Blittersdorf >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sun Dec 15 13:09:33 2024 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2024 13:09:33 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] The Battery Dude In-Reply-To: <970dbf229ffe6b13dcedd0b22944559e@redwoodalliance.org> References: <970dbf229ffe6b13dcedd0b22944559e@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <650b1a995ec0432507971dfee2fd080c@redwoodalliance.org> Follow Up- Fullriver says "don't use them." The Fullriver no idea where they are getting Fullriver batteries, and the Dude will not return their communications. They don't know where the Battery Dude is located. Best, Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ --- On 2024-12-10 10:38, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > Does anyone have experience buying from The Battery Dude > https://thebatterydude.com/?srsltid=AfmBOoqXxcb3OswFddRzS7ehtCitVisgZnPXvuXdOViLZ8sxcJyt437Q? > [1] > > They seem to have the best deals, and have free shipping. > > Thanks, > > Drake > > _Drake Chamberlin_ > > _Athens Electric LLC_ > > _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ > > _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] https://thebatterydude.com/?srsltid=AfmBOoqXxcb3OswFddRzS7ehtCitVisgZnPXvuXdOViLZ8sxcJyt437Q? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Dec 16 12:28:47 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2024 09:28:47 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Silent mode Message-ID: Heard that boB Gudgel passed! Rest in peace old friend! Will raise one tonight ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Mon Dec 16 12:37:47 2024 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2024 09:37:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Silent mode In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1734370667.13789643@webmail.finestplanet.com> Yes... details here: [ https://www.facebook.com/bob.gudgel.75 ]( https://www.facebook.com/bob.gudgel.75 ) Todd On Monday, December 16, 2024 9:28am, "Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches" said: Heard that boB Gudgel passed! Rest in peace old friend! Will raise one tonight ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar"we go where powerlines don't"[ ]( http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ )[ https://offgridsolar1.com/ ]( https://offgridsolar1.com/ )[ ]( http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ )e-mail [ offgridsolar at sti.net ]( mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net )text 209 813 0060 Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roy at four-winds-energy.com Mon Dec 16 12:42:38 2024 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2024 12:42:38 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] boB Gudgel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41a5ab1a-8573-4dbf-9b92-a9663e4231b3@four-winds-energy.com> There will never be anyone quite like boB. He was one of the smartest, funniest, quirkiest, friendly and helpful geniuses and he will be missed! I feel honored to have known and worked with him for almost 25 years. Rest in peace my friend. Roy Butler Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 607-324-9747 On 12/16/2024 12:28 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Heard that boB Gudgel passed! Rest in peace old friend! Will raise one > tonight ! > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Dec 16 12:55:18 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2024 10:55:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Silent mode In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Mon Dec 16 14:14:57 2024 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2024 11:14:57 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Silent mode In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Think of all the megawatt hours of sunshine his creations have harnessed over the decades. Quite the legacy to leave behind. Very thankful for the fun, ease and dependability he's brought to our work. I'll be reminded of the impact he's made on nearly all my sites for years to come. Long live boB and long live Midnite, it's just the beginning. Nick On Mon, Dec 16, 2024 at 9:56 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Or 2 or 3. > > RIP boB, you are missed. > Jay > > > > On Dec 16, 2024, at 10:29 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Heard that boB Gudgel passed! Rest in peace old friend! Will raise one tonight ! > > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Mon Dec 16 15:02:19 2024 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2024 15:02:19 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AIO and Fortress eFlex Message-ID: Hi, Has anyone had experience pairing the Midnite AIO with Fortress eFlex batteries. Sounds like closed loop is not good. I'm wondering if anyone has paired them in open loop. I've got a client that installed the eFlex about a year ago on an old Magnum, which recently went belly up. I'd like to replace the eFlex with a PowerFlo16, but he's reluctant to do so after having just spent too much on the eFlex.hanks, Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Dec 16 15:36:21 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2024 13:36:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AIO and Fortress eFlex In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <837B606C-37C6-400B-915C-0380DB038900@gmail.com> Hi Howie. I didn’t see that message. What does midnite say? I’m also not scared of open loop. I have a lot of older legacy systems that are running open loop without issues. Another positive of open loop is never worrying about a SOC shut down due to out of calibration with actual volts. Maybe the AIO has both settings active so which ever hits cut off with turn the inverter off. The LUX is either % or volts. Fortress highly recommends getting to 100% weekly and strongly every 2 weeks. Because they are concerned about SOC/volt calibration. Jay > On Dec 16, 2024, at 1:03 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Hi, > Has anyone had experience pairing the Midnite AIO with Fortress eFlex batteries. Sounds like closed loop is not good. I'm wondering if anyone has paired them in open loop. I've got a client that installed the eFlex about a year ago on an old Magnum, which recently went belly up. I'd like to replace the eFlex with a PowerFlo16, but he's reluctant to do so after having just spent too much on the eFlex.hanks, > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com Mon Dec 16 23:26:50 2024 From: jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com (Jeremy Coxon) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2024 23:26:50 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] boB Gudgel In-Reply-To: <41a5ab1a-8573-4dbf-9b92-a9663e4231b3@four-winds-energy.com> References: <41a5ab1a-8573-4dbf-9b92-a9663e4231b3@four-winds-energy.com> Message-ID: <828D79F5-A563-4FED-A5B4-6D84C38B2500@sunwindpowerinc.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Tue Dec 17 11:29:10 2024 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2024 11:29:10 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flickering lights with 12kw Envy inverter Message-ID: Hello, This system consists of -2- parallel Envy 12kw inverters and -2- evault 18.5kwh batteries. Grid tied w/about 13kw of pv on each inverter. Closed loop of course. I presently have the batteries set to charge off the grid when batteries fall to 90% SOC, stop charging when they rise to 95%. When I first commissioned the system, we noticed that whenever the grid switched to/from battery start or stop charging, lighting in the building would flicker momentarily AND the electronic t-stat for the furnace would power down and had to be reset manually. I found a parameter in the inverter called "seamless switch" and enabled it. This supposedly shortens the switch over between states from 200ms to 50ms. That was enough to keep the t-stat operational, but not all the lights from flickering. Oddly enough, the older 4ft fluorescent ballasted lighting stopped flickering, but the newer styles, a mix of compact fluorescent and LED, still flicker some. Any experience out there with something like this? Are there any other parameters I can alter to try and remedy this? I do have a support ticket to Fortress, and in the meantime, I'm lucky to present this issue to the vast expertise of this forum. PS I really wish Fortess would come up with a clearer explanation of what these setpoints do and how they interact. And consistency of labelling access across the apps. Amongst other things, some are not available remotely, like the "seamless switch". The remote app lays the settings out differently, and is not consistent in labelling similar functions between the app and the LCD setting page on the inverter. And as mentioned before, little to zero detail in the app documentation. -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com Tue Dec 17 13:17:18 2024 From: jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com (James Rudolph) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2024 08:17:18 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] boB Gudgel In-Reply-To: <828D79F5-A563-4FED-A5B4-6D84C38B2500@sunwindpowerinc.com> References: <41a5ab1a-8573-4dbf-9b92-a9663e4231b3@four-winds-energy.com> <828D79F5-A563-4FED-A5B4-6D84C38B2500@sunwindpowerinc.com> Message-ID: Legend! Rest in Peace boB. James B. Rudolph Independent Energy C-39784 ES #10816 NABCEP Certified PV Installer since 2009 #091209-155 C. 808.313.9701 On Mon, Dec 16, 2024 at 6:28 PM Jeremy Coxon via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Roy said it all. boB was one of a kind. RIP what an amazing legacy he left > behind. > > Jeremy Coxon NABCEP > Certified MWBE > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Dec 16, 2024, at 12:42 PM, Roy Butler > wrote: > >  There will never be anyone quite like boB. > He was one of the smartest, funniest, quirkiest, friendly and helpful > geniuses and he will be missed! > > I feel honored to have known and worked with him for almost 25 years. > > Rest in peace my friend. > > Roy Butler > Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC > 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 > 607-324-9747 > > > > On 12/16/2024 12:28 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Heard that boB Gudgel passed! Rest in peace old friend! Will raise one tonight ! > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Tue Dec 17 16:25:53 2024 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2024 21:25:53 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] BASE Power added a battery to my solar customer's home and I'm concerned this not a safe design Message-ID: Greetings Wrenches. Here in Texas we have this new company called BASE Power, started by Michael Dell's son (of Dell Computer). Their biz model is to install energy storage at people's home, have that person sign up with them as their retail electric provider, and gain backup capability to the battery's capacity unless the BASE team is discharging the batteries remotely to make money on high wholesale prices. I'm trying to figure out their financial model to make this work but he has smarter guys than me. Here is the issue: BASE installed whole-house backup but left my SolarEdge grid-tied inverter on backed up side but there is no communication capability from their system to mine and I'm not sure this is a safe design. We have a SolarEdge 11400, grid tied with point of interconnection as line side hot taps. The BASE guys re-oriented the entire main service through their GroWatt 200A auto transfer switch and this means my SE11400 is on the backed up side. The ESS is 50kwh and two GroWatt 11400. There is no comms or AC coupling from the GroWatt to the SE11400 Seems to me if the grid fails at midday with batteries at 100%, and the SolarEdge cranking out 9 or 10KW, there is no place for the solar production to go (batteries are full and assume the house running at typical 3KW). If this was properly AC-coupled, then full batteries might prompt some frequency shifting to bring the SE11400 lower on output, but there is nothing to do that here. This reminds me of customers who install generators and then their gen guy says he has this solar all figured and puts my solar downstream of the generator backup such that the solar is backfeeding to the generator. Do I have this same scenario? What will happen to this house if grid goes down, batteries are full, and the solar is maxing out? Will the SE11400 induce such a voltage swing that it eventually drops off line? Is this self-correcting that this is a reliable design. My gut feel is not at all but wanted to hear what you thought. Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex NABCEP PV Installation Professional TECL 29755 254-300-1228 [cid:5ef75353-fc63-49a1-a18c-2e250b8a09a4] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-tmzftxko.png Type: image/png Size: 294949 bytes Desc: Outlook-tmzftxko.png URL: From berkeleysolar at outlook.com Tue Dec 17 20:24:00 2024 From: berkeleysolar at outlook.com (Mark Frye) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 01:24:00 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Better Internet Connected Charge Controller Message-ID: Folks, I am going to be charging some AGMS with PV for a remote equipment power supply. I will have internet via Starlink and want to monitor the charge controller remotely for battery voltage etc. I am trying to choose between Victron and Morningstar. Is one better than the other in this application? Mark Frye -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Dec 17 21:19:24 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2024 19:19:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Better Internet Connected Charge Controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45150E1F-A2AB-41CB-ACF4-800F0A0DCE83@gmail.com> i haven’t used the morningstar online equipment. I do like the victron, its pretty easy to set up and versatile Lots of size/voltage options. Jay > On Dec 17, 2024, at 6:24 PM, Mark Frye via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Folks, > > I am going to be charging some AGMS with PV for a remote equipment power supply. > > I will have internet via Starlink and want to monitor the charge controller remotely for battery voltage etc. > > I am trying to choose between Victron and Morningstar. > > Is one better than the other in this application? > > Mark Frye > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Tue Dec 17 22:38:05 2024 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2024 20:38:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Better Internet Connected Charge Controller In-Reply-To: <45150E1F-A2AB-41CB-ACF4-800F0A0DCE83@gmail.com> References: <45150E1F-A2AB-41CB-ACF4-800F0A0DCE83@gmail.com> Message-ID: Mark, If you pair a Victron charge controller with a Victron Cerbo and your Starlink internet connection you will be able to use the Victron VRM monitoring platform which has iPhone and Android apps and will allow you remote settings changes as well as detailed monitoring. You can also connect a whole host of sensors (temperature, CTs, pulse meters, tank level sensors, etc) as well as other Victron devices like the Smart Shunt or BMV battery monitors to the Cerbo. You can monitor them all through the VRM app. My $.02 is that the Victron option is more flexible and will offer you much better remote monitoring options vs Morningstar. Luke Christy Renewable energy consultant NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO 81144 719.588.3044 sgsrenewables at gmail.com > On Dec 17, 2024, at 7:19 PM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > i haven’t used the morningstar online equipment. > > I do like the victron, its pretty easy to set up and versatile > Lots of size/voltage options. > > Jay > >> On Dec 17, 2024, at 6:24 PM, Mark Frye via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Folks, >> >> I am going to be charging some AGMS with PV for a remote equipment power supply. >> >> I will have internet via Starlink and want to monitor the charge controller remotely for battery voltage etc. >> >> I am trying to choose between Victron and Morningstar. >> >> Is one better than the other in this application? >> >> Mark Frye >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Tue Dec 17 22:39:54 2024 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2024 21:39:54 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Better Internet Connected Charge Controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <61D711C8-71A9-463B-956E-ED06D4C1CCCE@mavericksolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed Dec 18 08:26:56 2024 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 13:26:56 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] BASE Power added a battery to my solar customer's home and I'm concerned this not a safe design In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3E8E7DEE-FC11-4717-AA37-796E9E32F758@solarwork.com> Is this BASE equipment UL Listed? Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 On Dec 17, 2024, at 2:27 PM, scot.arey--- via RE-wrenches wrote:  Greetings Wrenches. Here in Texas we have this new company called BASE Power, started by Michael Dell's son (of Dell Computer). Their biz model is to install energy storage at people's home, have that person sign up with them as their retail electric provider, and gain backup capability to the battery's capacity unless the BASE team is discharging the batteries remotely to make money on high wholesale prices. I'm trying to figure out their financial model to make this work but he has smarter guys than me. Here is the issue: BASE installed whole-house backup but left my SolarEdge grid-tied inverter on backed up side but there is no communication capability from their system to mine and I'm not sure this is a safe design. We have a SolarEdge 11400, grid tied with point of interconnection as line side hot taps. The BASE guys re-oriented the entire main service through their GroWatt 200A auto transfer switch and this means my SE11400 is on the backed up side. The ESS is 50kwh and two GroWatt 11400. There is no comms or AC coupling from the GroWatt to the SE11400 Seems to me if the grid fails at midday with batteries at 100%, and the SolarEdge cranking out 9 or 10KW, there is no place for the solar production to go (batteries are full and assume the house running at typical 3KW). If this was properly AC-coupled, then full batteries might prompt some frequency shifting to bring the SE11400 lower on output, but there is nothing to do that here. This reminds me of customers who install generators and then their gen guy says he has this solar all figured and puts my solar downstream of the generator backup such that the solar is backfeeding to the generator. Do I have this same scenario? What will happen to this house if grid goes down, batteries are full, and the solar is maxing out? Will the SE11400 induce such a voltage swing that it eventually drops off line? Is this self-correcting that this is a reliable design. My gut feel is not at all but wanted to hear what you thought. Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex NABCEP PV Installation Professional TECL 29755 254-300-1228 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-tmzftxko.png Type: image/png Size: 294949 bytes Desc: Outlook-tmzftxko.png URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Wed Dec 18 09:52:44 2024 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (Howard Scot Arey) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 08:52:44 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] BASE Power added a battery to my solar customer's home and I'm concerned this not a safe design In-Reply-To: <3E8E7DEE-FC11-4717-AA37-796E9E32F758@solarwork.com> References: , <3E8E7DEE-FC11-4717-AA37-796E9E32F758@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <176363B4-661B-C34D-9E3A-4CC3D6FEBBFC@hxcore.ol> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-tmzftxko.png Type: image/png Size: 294949 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Dec 18 13:35:25 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 11:35:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1/2 wave loads Message-ID: <189A2DD3-1013-41D3-89AB-F8F997DDB4A7@gmail.com> Hi all. I’ve recently been made aware that the fortress inverter isn’t too happy with 1/2 wave loads. I’m wondering if this is an issue with the AIO or solark? Thanks in advance Jay From mick at abrahamsolar.com Wed Dec 18 14:17:51 2024 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 12:17:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] BASE Power added a battery to my solar customer's home and I'm concerned this not a safe design Message-ID: scot.arey at solarcentex.com asked about AC coupling between Growatt battery based inverters and his prior SolarEdge grid tie installation. For PV to "AC couple" with the storage, it's correct for the SolarEdge AC to land in the protected load center ("backed up side", as Scot wrote). Here are the two big questions that both need to be "yes": (1) Since Scot would have entered the SolarEdge "grid code" per power company requirements, does that grid code allow the SE to curtail its wattage via frequency shift? I think this answer depends on the SolarEdge vintage as well as the particular grid code. The power company folks may not know this answer but below are suggested steps for testing. (2) When the grid is disconnected or blacked out, do the GroWatt battery based inverters shift their frequency at high battery voltage (or high state of charge)? There may be some setting in the menus to enable this--which we hope are already done. If both inverter types are A-OK for frequency/watt curtailment, data communication between the two inverter types may be nice to have but that's not mandatory. With frequency shift, the "comms" happen by way of the AC wiring which is shared by both inverter types (primitive though that may seem). +++++++++++ Side note: In my own region, the utility & the code inspector would want a permit, a code inspection & power company approval when adding storage. If the work at the home of Scot's client was inspected & approved, all the UL listings & functions should have already been vetted. ++++++++++ One could test an AC coupled installation as follows: * Choose a sunny midday and a day with little risk of a power company blackout. * Make sure the protected loads are smaller than the likely PV wattage during the test. * Set up a way to watch the battery voltage if it's not already there...(or state of charge or both). * Clamp around one of the SolarEdge AC hot wires so one could monitor the AC amperage with minimal lag time. * (Optional) Put on a t-shirt that says: "Let's light this fuse and see what happens." * Shut down the SolarEdge inverter, then disconnect the grid power upstream from the Growatt inverters. This fakes a blackout so the grid no longer defines the AC frequency. AC power in the protected load center would now be synthesized by the Growatt inverters. * Run some of the protected loads to discharge the battery a bit. This will give the observer some time in which to observe. * Switch on the SolarEdge, which will now be fooled into waking up after the 5 minute time-out. SE thinks there's a grid but I think Rule 21 algorithms also incorporate a frequency/watt curtailment function. The AC frequency may shift more rapidly or more finely than what one could easily measure. No problem there b/c the battery voltage & SOC should tell the tale. ++++++++++++++++++++++++ I saw a setup with one Outback Radian plus a 2020-ish SolarEdge. I don't know the grid code but I'm sure that includes Rule 21 compliance. Instead of a smooth, gradual curtailment as the battery voltage rose, this one does more of a "bang-bang". That may be because of high PV wattage relative to battery size. The Outback frequency shifts so fast that it tosses the SE into shutdown before meaningful curtailment can be observed. That's the first bang, resulting in dropping the PV wattage to zero. The second bang comes five minutes later when the SE again tries to connect to the "microgrid". The PV wattage ramps up until there's another SE shutdown. Rinse & repeat until the grid comes back on. This is literally clunky but it does prevent overcharge & the lithium battery seems not to mind. If this home was off-grid (or in prolonged grid blackouts), the bangs might cause premature wear on the SolarEdge relay. I think Outback settings don't allow any changes in how fast the frequency is changed relative to the rate of increase on the battery voltage. SolarEdge may or may not allow for nuance in its own freq/watt behavior. I trust this might be helpful, Scot. Be sure to report back on-list with further info. As always, "The Wrench List is the Bomb!" Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Wed Dec 18 14:38:36 2024 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 13:38:36 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1/2 wave loads In-Reply-To: <189A2DD3-1013-41D3-89AB-F8F997DDB4A7@gmail.com> References: <189A2DD3-1013-41D3-89AB-F8F997DDB4A7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <92D38096-9A79-4FC8-86D0-90CC2F097B6F@mavericksolar.com> Jay Can you give an example of a device that is powered by a half wave power supply that is large enough to create an issue for the Envy inverter? That would help track down why some loads cause the over load error, etc. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On Dec 18, 2024, at 12:36 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi all. > > I’ve recently been made aware that the fortress inverter isn’t too happy with 1/2 wave loads. > > I’m wondering if this is an issue with the AIO or solark? > > Thanks in advance > > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Dec 18 15:18:43 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 13:18:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1/2 wave loads In-Reply-To: <92D38096-9A79-4FC8-86D0-90CC2F097B6F@mavericksolar.com> References: <92D38096-9A79-4FC8-86D0-90CC2F097B6F@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: As I understand it, Heater loads are the main issue. Toasters, toaster ovens, hair dryers, aquarium/terraium heaters etc. But I defer to others that know more. And I’m double checking to see if the information that I received is accurate. And of course assuming it is correct, is there anything to be done about it? Jay > On Dec 18, 2024, at 12:39 PM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Jay > > Can you give an example of a device that is powered by a half wave power supply that is large enough to create an issue for the Envy inverter? > > That would help track down why some loads cause the over load error, etc. > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > > >>> On Dec 18, 2024, at 12:36 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >> Hi all. >> >> I’ve recently been made aware that the fortress inverter isn’t too happy with 1/2 wave loads. >> >> I’m wondering if this is an issue with the AIO or solark? >> >> Thanks in advance >> >> Jay >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Dec 18 15:33:44 2024 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (GLBCC) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 15:33:44 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1/2 wave loads In-Reply-To: <189A2DD3-1013-41D3-89AB-F8F997DDB4A7@gmail.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Dec 18 15:41:22 2024 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 12:41:22 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1/2 wave loads In-Reply-To: References: <92D38096-9A79-4FC8-86D0-90CC2F097B6F@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: <86252778099ab127c7e85b776fec1fea@mail.gmail.com> Friends: Half wave loads would be those that pass through a single diode or a device acting like a diode. A resistive load like a heater would not be considered a half-wave load. AC-DC power supplies have diodes but if operating correctly will provide full wave rectification. Switching power supplies should also use the entire waveform although they can introduce noise onto the feeder. These power supplies are not typically large portions of a residential load. Please forgive me if I misunderstand the question, but basic electrical theory would confirm the above declaration. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jay via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Wednesday, December 18, 2024 12:19 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Jay *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] 1/2 wave loads As I understand it, Heater loads are the main issue. Toasters, toaster ovens, hair dryers, aquarium/terraium heaters etc. But I defer to others that know more. And I’m double checking to see if the information that I received is accurate. And of course assuming it is correct, is there anything to be done about it? Jay On Dec 18, 2024, at 12:39 PM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Jay Can you give an example of a device that is powered by a half wave power supply that is large enough to create an issue for the Envy inverter? That would help track down why some loads cause the over load error, etc. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 On Dec 18, 2024, at 12:36 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Hi all. I’ve recently been made aware that the fortress inverter isn’t too happy with 1/2 wave loads. I’m wondering if this is an issue with the AIO or solark? Thanks in advance Jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Dec 18 15:52:11 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 13:52:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1/2 wave loads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here is what I understand 1/2 wave loads to be. As I understand it, Heater loads are the main issue. Toasters, toaster ovens, hair dryers, aquarium/terraium heaters etc. But if there are other things pls let us know Jay > On Dec 18, 2024, at 1:34 PM, GLBCC via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > What is a half wave load? > > On Dec 18, 2024 13:35, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi all. > > I’ve recently been made aware that the fortress inverter isn’t too happy with 1/2 wave loads. > > I’m wondering if this is an issue with the AIO or solark? > > Thanks in advance > > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Dec 18 16:00:49 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 14:00:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1/2 wave loads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I will add that I’ve heard privately off list that it’s actually smaller loads that seem to be the issue. And larger 1500 watt electric heaters seem to work ok. I’m wondering if anyone else has come across this issue and I guess more importantly is there a fix? Jay > On Dec 18, 2024, at 1:52 PM, Jay wrote: > >  > Here is what I understand 1/2 wave loads to be. > > As I understand it, Heater loads are the main issue. > > Toasters, toaster ovens, hair dryers, aquarium/terraium heaters etc. > > But if there are other things pls let us know > > Jay > >>> On Dec 18, 2024, at 1:34 PM, GLBCC via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>  >> What is a half wave load? >> >> On Dec 18, 2024 13:35, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: >> Hi all. >> >> I’ve recently been made aware that the fortress inverter isn’t too happy with 1/2 wave loads. >> >> I’m wondering if this is an issue with the AIO or solark? >> >> Thanks in advance >> >> Jay >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Dec 18 16:34:31 2024 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (GLBCC) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 16:34:31 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1/2 wave loads In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0fdfab4a-0e77-4927-ad88-b2db9fb4be3c@email.android.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Dec 18 16:39:51 2024 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (GLBCC) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 16:39:51 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1/2 wave loads In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump3391 at gmail.com Wed Dec 18 16:59:00 2024 From: tump3391 at gmail.com (Blair May) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 16:59:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Better Internet Connected Charge Controller In-Reply-To: References: <45150E1F-A2AB-41CB-ACF4-800F0A0DCE83@gmail.com> Message-ID: Victron CCs also is able to b set w/ an "adaptive" charging cycle instead of a full charge daily. Blair "Tump" May On Tue, Dec 17, 2024, 10:38 PM Luke Christy via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Mark, > If you pair a Victron charge controller with a Victron Cerbo and your > Starlink internet connection you will be able to use the Victron VRM > monitoring platform which has iPhone and Android apps and will allow you > remote settings changes as well as detailed monitoring. > > You can also connect a whole host of sensors (temperature, CTs, pulse > meters, tank level sensors, etc) as well as other Victron devices like the > Smart Shunt or BMV battery monitors to the Cerbo. You can monitor them all > through the VRM app. My $.02 is that the Victron option is more flexible > and will offer you much better remote monitoring options vs Morningstar. > > > Luke Christy > Renewable energy consultant > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: > > Solar Gain Services, LLC > PO Box 531 > Monte Vista, CO 81144 > 719.588.3044 > sgsrenewables at gmail.com > > On Dec 17, 2024, at 7:19 PM, jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > i haven’t used the morningstar online equipment. > > I do like the victron, its pretty easy to set up and versatile > Lots of size/voltage options. > > Jay > > On Dec 17, 2024, at 6:24 PM, Mark Frye via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Folks, > > I am going to be charging some AGMS with PV for a remote equipment power > supply. > > I will have internet via Starlink and want to monitor the charge > controller remotely for battery voltage etc. > > I am trying to choose between Victron and Morningstar. > > Is one better than the other in this application? > > Mark Frye > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From berkeleysolar at outlook.com Wed Dec 18 19:10:47 2024 From: berkeleysolar at outlook.com (Mark Frye) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2024 00:10:47 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Telecomm Power Supply - Some Questions Message-ID: Folks, I am going to build a stand-alone power supply for some telecom equipment. I settled on MorningStar ProStar with their EMC-1. A few questions: For emergency operation with days of autonomy used up at or near LVD, is it OK to parallel an AC powered battery charger such as IOTA onto the battery? Or do I need to disconnect the charge controller from the battery and load and connect a charger for the battery and a power supply for the load? Who is a good vendor for a skid mounted outdoor battery box that is a step up from a Knack Box? Or is it really OK to put the AGMS inside the same enclosure as the electronics? If in the same enclosure do I still need some screened louver vents (I would think so). Thanks, Mark Frye -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Wed Dec 18 23:03:56 2024 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2024 23:03:56 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1/2 wave loads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I installed a couple of EG4 18k inverters off grid this past spring, made by LuxPower as is the Envy. They look very similar both visually and programmatically. Withone install, there has been a steady problem of the inverter shutting off when the client uses a hair dryer. The other client has not reported any issues with the inverter cycling off. Tech Support's solution to this issue which they referred to as stemming from half-wave loads, was to run another load simultaneously which was supposed to help prevent the nuisance momentary shutdown, but according to the client, it hasn't helped. After bugging tech support for several months about this issue, they finally told me that there was a hardware design flaw that they were working on resolving and when they had it fixed, they would send out a replacement inverter. I asked if they would be replacing both inverters, but they said since one hasn't reported any issues, they would not be replacing that one. That was at least 2 months ago, and I have not heard anything since. Howie Michaelson On Wed, Dec 18, 2024 at 4:02 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I will add that I’ve heard privately off list that it’s actually smaller > loads that seem to be the issue. > > And larger 1500 watt electric heaters seem to work ok. > > I’m wondering if anyone else has come across this issue and I guess more > importantly is there a fix? > > Jay > > On Dec 18, 2024, at 1:52 PM, Jay wrote: > >  > Here is what I understand 1/2 wave loads to be. > > As I understand it, Heater loads are the main issue. > > Toasters, toaster ovens, hair dryers, aquarium/terraium heaters etc. > > But if there are other things pls let us know > > Jay > > On Dec 18, 2024, at 1:34 PM, GLBCC via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > What is a half wave load? > > On Dec 18, 2024 13:35, Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi all. > > I’ve recently been made aware that the fortress inverter isn’t too happy > with 1/2 wave loads. > > I’m wondering if this is an issue with the AIO or solark? > > Thanks in advance > > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roy at four-winds-energy.com Thu Dec 19 08:19:48 2024 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2024 08:19:48 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Telecomm Power Supply - Some Questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7720521b-bc06-4696-a14e-3d8cd69545e4@four-winds-energy.com> Hi Mark, I can address the Prostar question. The Prostar can share the battery with the AC charging source, no need to disconnect it when using that charger. And as long as the AC charger and solar can keep the battery voltage above the LVD threshold, the Prostar load circuit will continue to power the loads. The one thing you do not want to do is to connect the AC charger to the Prostar PV input. PWM charge controllers can not manipulate a "stiff" voltage source and that will cause switching FET failure. Roy Butler Morningstar Technical Support On 12/18/2024 7:10 PM, Mark Frye via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Folks, > > I am going to build a stand-alone power supply for some telecom equipment. > > I settled on MorningStar ProStar with their EMC-1. > > A few questions: > > For emergency operation with days of autonomy used up at or near LVD, > is it OK to parallel an AC powered battery charger such as IOTA onto > the battery? Or do I need to disconnect the charge controller from the > battery and load and connect a charger for the battery and a power > supply for the load? > > Who is a good vendor for a skid mounted outdoor battery box that is a > step up from a Knack Box? Or is it really OK to put the AGMS inside > the same enclosure as the electronics? If in the same enclosure do I > still need some screened louver vents (I would think so). > > Thanks, > > Mark Frye > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Dec 19 08:52:23 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2024 06:52:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1/2 wave loads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4750DEBB-0225-4E9F-B51B-ED0264B2B828@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Dec 19 09:43:26 2024 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2024 07:43:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1/2 wave loads In-Reply-To: <4750DEBB-0225-4E9F-B51B-ED0264B2B828@gmail.com> References: <4750DEBB-0225-4E9F-B51B-ED0264B2B828@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, I wanted to look into this to see why a diode might be used in something like a heat load. William is right that a typical heat load wouldn't be considered a 1/2 wave load. However, some power level switches (like the little knob on the hair dryer) may engage a diode that will allow it to only use the top 1/2 of the voltage waveform. This would cut the power by ~ 50%. Here is a good article explaining what 1/2 loads are as well: https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/diode/diode_5.html It doesn't explain why the Envy and EG4 struggle with this common type of load, which seems like a serious design flaw. On Thu, Dec 19, 2024 at 6:53 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Howie > > That’s great info thanks. > > They never mentioned that to me. > And I’ve not heard about an actual > Hardware issue/fix. > > The latest firmware 1E1E is supposed to “fix” it. It also requires a > separate firmware update for the display which you have to do in person, > stupid. > > Jay > > > > On Dec 18, 2024, at 9:05 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > I installed a couple of EG4 18k inverters off grid this past spring, made > by LuxPower as is the Envy. They look very similar both visually and > programmatically. Withone install, there has been a steady problem of the > inverter shutting off when the client uses a hair dryer. The other client > has not reported any issues with the inverter cycling off. Tech Support's > solution to this issue which they referred to as stemming from half-wave > loads, was to run another load simultaneously which was supposed to help > prevent the nuisance momentary shutdown, but according to the client, it > hasn't helped. After bugging tech support for several months about this > issue, they finally told me that there was a hardware design flaw that they > were working on resolving and when they had it fixed, they would send out a > replacement inverter. I asked if they would be replacing both inverters, > but they said since one hasn't reported any issues, they would not be > replacing that one. That was at least 2 months ago, and I have not heard > anything since. > > Howie Michaelson > > > On Wed, Dec 18, 2024 at 4:02 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I will add that I’ve heard privately off list that it’s actually smaller >> loads that seem to be the issue. >> >> And larger 1500 watt electric heaters seem to work ok. >> >> I’m wondering if anyone else has come across this issue and I guess more >> importantly is there a fix? >> >> Jay >> >> On Dec 18, 2024, at 1:52 PM, Jay wrote: >> >>  >> Here is what I understand 1/2 wave loads to be. >> >> As I understand it, Heater loads are the main issue. >> >> Toasters, toaster ovens, hair dryers, aquarium/terraium heaters etc. >> >> But if there are other things pls let us know >> >> Jay >> >> On Dec 18, 2024, at 1:34 PM, GLBCC via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> What is a half wave load? >> >> On Dec 18, 2024 13:35, Jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Hi all. >> >> I’ve recently been made aware that the fortress inverter isn’t too happy >> with 1/2 wave loads. >> >> I’m wondering if this is an issue with the AIO or solark? >> >> Thanks in advance >> >> Jay >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From berkeleysolar at outlook.com Thu Dec 19 09:51:23 2024 From: berkeleysolar at outlook.com (Mark Frye) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2024 14:51:23 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Telecomm Power Supply - Voltages Message-ID: My equipment has both 12 V and 24 V each at about 60W. I was planning to run a Prostar at 24V and then use a DC DC converter for the 12 V load. That looked like 2 x 285 AH AGM and 2x 320 W PV. Now I have to go to a darker place and may have to double the battery and the PV. That would mean I could run a Tristar at 48V and have a two DC DC converters, one for the 24V loads and one for the 12V loads. Somehow it makes sense to me to run the supply side at 48V for lower currents and more battery cells even if it means an additional converter on the load side. Any thoughts one way or the other? Thanks, Mark Frye -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roy at four-winds-energy.com Thu Dec 19 10:03:02 2024 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2024 10:03:02 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Telecomm Power Supply - Voltages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mark, One thing to be aware of is capacitance inrush current, quite common with DC-DC converters. If you are running the converters off of the Prostar controller load circuit, the inrush current might be sufficient to trigger a high current shutdown of the load circuit. A single low current converter will probably be fine, especially if using the 30 amp Prostar. If you do decide to use the Tristar and go with a 48 volt configuration, 2 converters will not be an issue because the Tristar has no load circuit, your loads will be powered off of the battery. I'll put my installer hat back on here and say that I always prefer the least complex solution. The 24 volt configuration with the single converter would be that solution and also provide LVD. Roy Butler Morningstar Technical Support On 12/19/2024 9:51 AM, Mark Frye via RE-wrenches wrote: > > My equipment has both 12 V and 24 V each at about 60W. > > I was planning to run a Prostar at 24V and then use a DC DC converter > for the 12 V load. > > That looked like 2 x 285 AH AGM and 2x 320 W PV. > > Now I have to go to a darker place and may have to double the battery > and the PV. > > That would mean I could run a Tristar at 48V and have a two DC DC > converters, one for the 24V loads and one for the 12V loads. > > Somehow it makes sense to me to run the supply side at 48V for lower > currents and more battery cells even if it means an additional > converter on the load side. > > Any thoughts one way or the other? > > Thanks, > > Mark Frye > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From berkeleysolar at outlook.com Thu Dec 19 11:00:15 2024 From: berkeleysolar at outlook.com (Mark Frye) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2024 16:00:15 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Telecomm Power Supply - Voltages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Roy. I am now wondering if instead of 1 Prostar and 1 DC DC Convert I should move to 2 Prostars, 1 for each load voltage. Each Prostar would have 2 AGM and 2 PV. In a way this is more complex, but in another simpler. For AC charging I would also need 2 chargers, one for each voltage. Humm. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Roy Butler via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2024 7:03 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: Roy Butler Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Telecomm Power Supply - Voltages Hi Mark, One thing to be aware of is capacitance inrush current, quite common with DC-DC converters. If you are running the converters off of the Prostar controller load circuit, the inrush current might be sufficient to trigger a high current shutdown of the load circuit. A single low current converter will probably be fine, especially if using the 30 amp Prostar. If you do decide to use the Tristar and go with a 48 volt configuration, 2 converters will not be an issue because the Tristar has no load circuit, your loads will be powered off of the battery. I'll put my installer hat back on here and say that I always prefer the least complex solution. The 24 volt configuration with the single converter would be that solution and also provide LVD. Roy Butler Morningstar Technical Support On 12/19/2024 9:51 AM, Mark Frye via RE-wrenches wrote: My equipment has both 12 V and 24 V each at about 60W. I was planning to run a Prostar at 24V and then use a DC DC converter for the 12 V load. That looked like 2 x 285 AH AGM and 2x 320 W PV. Now I have to go to a darker place and may have to double the battery and the PV. That would mean I could run a Tristar at 48V and have a two DC DC converters, one for the 24V loads and one for the 12V loads. Somehow it makes sense to me to run the supply side at 48V for lower currents and more battery cells even if it means an additional converter on the load side. Any thoughts one way or the other? Thanks, Mark Frye _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Thu Dec 19 11:35:11 2024 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2024 11:35:11 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1/2 wave loads In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Thu Dec 19 12:10:50 2024 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Jesse Dahl) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2024 11:10:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1/2 wave loads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <551CADCA-620E-4F66-BFE0-CB38B8513011@gmail.com> I think about resistive loads as “in-phase”. Half-wave seem like they would a load with a diode blocking one side of the waveform. Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 18, 2024, at 3:03 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > I will add that I’ve heard privately off list that it’s actually smaller loads that seem to be the issue. > > And larger 1500 watt electric heaters seem to work ok. > > I’m wondering if anyone else has come across this issue and I guess more importantly is there a fix? > > Jay > >>> On Dec 18, 2024, at 1:52 PM, Jay wrote: >>> >>  >> Here is what I understand 1/2 wave loads to be. >> >> As I understand it, Heater loads are the main issue. >> >> Toasters, toaster ovens, hair dryers, aquarium/terraium heaters etc. >> >> But if there are other things pls let us know >> >> Jay >> >>>> On Dec 18, 2024, at 1:34 PM, GLBCC via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> >>>  >>> What is a half wave load? >>> >>> On Dec 18, 2024 13:35, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> Hi all. >>> >>> I’ve recently been made aware that the fortress inverter isn’t too happy with 1/2 wave loads. >>> >>> I’m wondering if this is an issue with the AIO or solark? >>> >>> Thanks in advance >>> >>> Jay >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gowdyelectriccambria at gmail.com Fri Dec 20 09:49:04 2024 From: gowdyelectriccambria at gmail.com (Jim Gowdy) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2024 06:49:04 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian GS8048 Surge Message-ID: Hi All, Does anyone have experience troubleshooting Radian GS8048 power modules? I'm going to attempt to isolate the power modules (on a 2 x Radian system) to confirm whether or not the inverters are outputting surges. There are a couple appliances, battery backup for communications equipment and a xerox machine, that have given power surge errors. A few of these Errors were at night and the system did not have any external power (solar and generator) inputs at the time. I will attempt to call Outback for support as well. -- Jim with Gowdy Electric Cambria, Ca 93428 business 805 927 2630 cell 805 975 5279 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Fri Dec 20 11:16:36 2024 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (Todd Cory) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2024 08:16:36 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian GS8048 Surge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <193e4db46a0.284a.4317fda5bda71af373de9c45c94f08a7@finestplanet.com> Can you track to see if there were any large loads which cycled during that time period, such as a well pump? I often see my fx inverter producing noticeable spikes (flickering the lights) when cycling (starting and stopping) large loads. On December 20, 2024 6:50:52 AM Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi All, > Does anyone have experience troubleshooting Radian GS8048 power modules? > I'm going to attempt to isolate the power modules (on a 2 x Radian system) > to confirm whether or not the inverters are outputting surges. There are a > couple appliances, battery backup for communications equipment and a xerox > machine, that have given power surge errors. A few of these Errors were at > night and the system did not have any external power (solar and generator) > inputs at the time. I will attempt to call Outback for support as well. > > -- > Jim with Gowdy Electric > Cambria, Ca 93428 > business 805 927 2630 > cell 805 975 5279 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Sent with Aqua Mail for Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Dec 21 11:54:45 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2024 09:54:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1/2 wave loads In-Reply-To: <551CADCA-620E-4F66-BFE0-CB38B8513011@gmail.com> References: <551CADCA-620E-4F66-BFE0-CB38B8513011@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2AD48288-5132-4889-8E10-AC8C1738BD02@gmail.com> I can’t remember if I sent the update. We identified the load as a Japanese bidet. Once unplugged everything is working normally. So whatever people want to call the 1/2 wave. It’s what multiple OEMS call it. If I can find an oscilloscope I’ll send along what the wave form looks like. Jay > On Dec 19, 2024, at 10:11 AM, Jesse Dahl via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I think about resistive loads as “in-phase”. Half-wave seem like they would a load with a diode blocking one side of the waveform. > Sent from my iPhone > >>> On Dec 18, 2024, at 3:03 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>  >> I will add that I’ve heard privately off list that it’s actually smaller loads that seem to be the issue. >> >> And larger 1500 watt electric heaters seem to work ok. >> >> I’m wondering if anyone else has come across this issue and I guess more importantly is there a fix? >> >> Jay >> >>>> On Dec 18, 2024, at 1:52 PM, Jay wrote: >>>> >>>  >>> Here is what I understand 1/2 wave loads to be. >>> >>> As I understand it, Heater loads are the main issue. >>> >>> Toasters, toaster ovens, hair dryers, aquarium/terraium heaters etc. >>> >>> But if there are other things pls let us know >>> >>> Jay >>> >>>>> On Dec 18, 2024, at 1:34 PM, GLBCC via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>> >>>>  >>>> What is a half wave load? >>>> >>>> On Dec 18, 2024 13:35, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> Hi all. >>>> >>>> I’ve recently been made aware that the fortress inverter isn’t too happy with 1/2 wave loads. >>>> >>>> I’m wondering if this is an issue with the AIO or solark? >>>> >>>> Thanks in advance >>>> >>>> Jay >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at evcl.com Sat Dec 21 12:05:01 2024 From: david at evcl.com (David Coale) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2024 09:05:01 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PowerWall 3 in an off-grid system? In-Reply-To: <2AD48288-5132-4889-8E10-AC8C1738BD02@gmail.com> References: <551CADCA-620E-4F66-BFE0-CB38B8513011@gmail.com> <2AD48288-5132-4889-8E10-AC8C1738BD02@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1D8ADE3A-10D8-40C4-9B6D-B9B89FBEDDE7@evcl.com> Hi Wrenchers, Has anyone used a PowerWall 3 as an ad-on to an existing off-grid system? Tesla says they do not support off-grid, but if the existing off-grid system is the “grid”, then this should work. David From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Dec 21 13:10:00 2024 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2024 10:10:00 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PowerWall 3 in an off-grid system? In-Reply-To: <1D8ADE3A-10D8-40C4-9B6D-B9B89FBEDDE7@evcl.com> References: <551CADCA-620E-4F66-BFE0-CB38B8513011@gmail.com> <2AD48288-5132-4889-8E10-AC8C1738BD02@gmail.com> <1D8ADE3A-10D8-40C4-9B6D-B9B89FBEDDE7@evcl.com> Message-ID: David, Wrenches, I would not recommend that as it may be a warranty issue down the road and last l heard is it must be monitored at all times and if there is not a grid even though it's AC coupled could ba there issue. Fun times On Sat, Dec 21, 2024, 9:05 AM David Coale via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Wrenchers, > > Has anyone used a PowerWall 3 as an ad-on to an existing off-grid system? > Tesla says they do not support off-grid, but if the existing off-grid > system is the “grid”, then this should work. > > David > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pieter at offgridenterprises.org Sat Dec 21 17:05:20 2024 From: pieter at offgridenterprises.org (pieter offgridenterprises.org) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2024 22:05:20 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1/2 wave loads In-Reply-To: <2AD48288-5132-4889-8E10-AC8C1738BD02@gmail.com> References: <551CADCA-620E-4F66-BFE0-CB38B8513011@gmail.com> <2AD48288-5132-4889-8E10-AC8C1738BD02@gmail.com> Message-ID: Nomenclature! After all of this discussion it sounds like “half wave load” is being used to describe a load that is only using one of the two 120 volt legs a standard 120/240 split phase inverter provides. That being the case the AC output current rating should be looked at. For example an inverter rated at 9KW might have a 37.5 amp max output current rating. That means the inverter is only rated to supply 37.5 amps per leg. So in other words 120VAC X 37.5 amps =4500 Watts, (at unity power factor) or 240AC X 37.5 amps =9000Watts (at unity power factor). If a load is connected on one of the two 120 volt line to Neutral legs and the current exceeds 37.5amps the load will exceed the inverter rating. If the power factor is not 1, then the output watts can be less than the output VA.. It is possible that what is being referred to as a “half wave load” could more accurately be described as an unbalanced load. That being the case the total load on the inverter may be less than the specified load rating, but the load current on one “leg” maybe more than the inverter rated output current. If the leg currents are measured and found not be reasonably balanced it may be possible to correct the issue by re arranging circuit breakers in the MDP. Pieter Huebner Project Manager Off Grid Enterprises From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jay via RE-wrenches Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2024 10:55 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jay Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 1/2 wave loads I can’t remember if I sent the update. We identified the load as a Japanese bidet. Once unplugged everything is working normally. So whatever people want to call the 1/2 wave. It’s what multiple OEMS call it. If I can find an oscilloscope I’ll send along what the wave form looks like. Jay On Dec 19, 2024, at 10:11 AM, Jesse Dahl via RE-wrenches > wrote: I think about resistive loads as “in-phase”. Half-wave seem like they would a load with a diode blocking one side of the waveform. Sent from my iPhone On Dec 18, 2024, at 3:03 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote:  I will add that I’ve heard privately off list that it’s actually smaller loads that seem to be the issue. And larger 1500 watt electric heaters seem to work ok. I’m wondering if anyone else has come across this issue and I guess more importantly is there a fix? Jay On Dec 18, 2024, at 1:52 PM, Jay > wrote:  Here is what I understand 1/2 wave loads to be. As I understand it, Heater loads are the main issue. Toasters, toaster ovens, hair dryers, aquarium/terraium heaters etc. But if there are other things pls let us know Jay On Dec 18, 2024, at 1:34 PM, GLBCC via RE-wrenches > wrote:  What is a half wave load? On Dec 18, 2024 13:35, Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi all. I’ve recently been made aware that the fortress inverter isn’t too happy with 1/2 wave loads. I’m wondering if this is an issue with the AIO or solark? Thanks in advance Jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Dec 21 18:03:50 2024 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2024 15:03:50 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PowerWall 3 in an off-grid system? In-Reply-To: <1D8ADE3A-10D8-40C4-9B6D-B9B89FBEDDE7@evcl.com> References: <551CADCA-620E-4F66-BFE0-CB38B8513011@gmail.com> <2AD48288-5132-4889-8E10-AC8C1738BD02@gmail.com> <1D8ADE3A-10D8-40C4-9B6D-B9B89FBEDDE7@evcl.com> Message-ID: <31826f3fdecb4ef27471ec74650e1083@sti.net> No warranty is no warranty. Would love it if Elon would go offgrid. The model 3 is almost there. I did build an xw into a powerwall with bad electronics. It is still running. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2024-12-21 9:05 am, David Coale via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Wrenchers, > > Has anyone used a PowerWall 3 as an ad-on to an existing off-grid > system? Tesla says they do not support off-grid, but if the existing > off-grid system is the "grid", then this should work. > > David > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Dec 21 18:13:25 2024 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2024 16:13:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PowerWall 3 in an off-grid system? In-Reply-To: <31826f3fdecb4ef27471ec74650e1083@sti.net> References: <551CADCA-620E-4F66-BFE0-CB38B8513011@gmail.com> <2AD48288-5132-4889-8E10-AC8C1738BD02@gmail.com> <1D8ADE3A-10D8-40C4-9B6D-B9B89FBEDDE7@evcl.com> <31826f3fdecb4ef27471ec74650e1083@sti.net> Message-ID: <991791B6-C3B7-4CED-B1CD-39F0740D46F3@gmail.com> I’m curious what the PW 3 surge rating is? Anyone know? And where would it be found, I can’t find it. jay > On Dec 21, 2024, at 4:03 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > > > No warranty is no warranty. Would love it if Elon would go offgrid. > > The model 3 is almost there. I did build an xw into a powerwall with bad electronics. It is still running. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > > On 2024-12-21 9:05 am, David Coale via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> Hi Wrenchers, >> >> Has anyone used a PowerWall 3 as an ad-on to an existing off-grid system? Tesla says they do not support off-grid, but if the existing off-grid system is the “grid”, then this should work. >> >> David >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at evcl.com Sat Dec 21 18:30:57 2024 From: david at evcl.com (David Coale) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2024 15:30:57 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PowerWall 3 in an off-grid system? In-Reply-To: <991791B6-C3B7-4CED-B1CD-39F0740D46F3@gmail.com> References: <551CADCA-620E-4F66-BFE0-CB38B8513011@gmail.com> <2AD48288-5132-4889-8E10-AC8C1738BD02@gmail.com> <1D8ADE3A-10D8-40C4-9B6D-B9B89FBEDDE7@evcl.com> <31826f3fdecb4ef27471ec74650e1083@sti.net> <991791B6-C3B7-4CED-B1CD-39F0740D46F3@gmail.com> Message-ID: For the PW3 the Locked Rotor Amp rating is 185 amps. It does have some good features, but does not have a generator input. In my particular case, the other system already has a generator with auto start, so this would look like the grid and would essentially never go down. See attached data sheet. David > On Dec 21, 2024, at 3:13 PM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I’m curious what the PW 3 surge rating is? > Anyone know? > And where would it be found, I can’t find it. > > jay > > >> On Dec 21, 2024, at 4:03 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> >> >> No warranty is no warranty. Would love it if Elon would go offgrid. >> >> The model 3 is almost there. I did build an xw into a powerwall with bad electronics. It is still running. >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >> >> On 2024-12-21 9:05 am, David Coale via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >>> Hi Wrenchers, >>> >>> Has anyone used a PowerWall 3 as an ad-on to an existing off-grid system? Tesla says they do not support off-grid, but if the existing off-grid system is the “grid”, then this should work. >>> >>> David >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Powerwall-3-Datasheet.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1686449 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at evcl.com Sat Dec 21 18:41:42 2024 From: david at evcl.com (David Coale) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2024 15:41:42 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1/2 wave loads In-Reply-To: References: <551CADCA-620E-4F66-BFE0-CB38B8513011@gmail.com> <2AD48288-5132-4889-8E10-AC8C1738BD02@gmail.com> Message-ID: <12EF6B61-7EB6-4107-874F-5011B392A762@evcl.com> Way to complicated. The “half wave load” is as described earlier. It is a cheap way to get a hair drier (or other heater) with a three-way switch to have air, half power and full power. The half power routes the hot side through a diode so that the heating element only get half power. Full power is no diode. This can cause trouble with some inverters, and I am sure is a terrible (noisy) load on any AC line, but it is cheap and they don’t care about the side affects. David > On Dec 21, 2024, at 2:05 PM, pieter offgridenterprises.org via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Nomenclature! After all of this discussion it sounds like “half wave load” is being used to describe a load that is only using one of the two 120 volt legs a standard 120/240 split phase inverter provides. That being the case the AC output current rating should be looked at. For example an inverter rated at 9KW might have a 37.5 amp max output current rating. That means the inverter is only rated to supply 37.5 amps per leg. So in other words 120VAC X 37.5 amps =4500 Watts, (at unity power factor) or 240AC X 37.5 amps =9000Watts (at unity power factor). If a load is connected on one of the two 120 volt line to Neutral legs and the current exceeds 37.5amps the load will exceed the inverter rating. If the power factor is not 1, then the output watts can be less than the output VA.. It is possible that what is being referred to as a “half wave load” could more accurately be described as an unbalanced load. That being the case the total load on the inverter may be less than the specified load rating, but the load current on one “leg” maybe more than the inverter rated output current. If the leg currents are measured and found not be reasonably balanced it may be possible to correct the issue by re arranging circuit breakers in the MDP. > Pieter Huebner > Project Manager > Off Grid Enterprises > > > From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Jay via RE-wrenches > Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2024 10:55 AM > To: RE-wrenches > > Cc: Jay > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 1/2 wave loads > > I can’t remember if I sent the update. > > We identified the load as a Japanese bidet. Once unplugged everything is working normally. > > So whatever people want to call the 1/2 wave. It’s what multiple OEMS call it. > > If I can find an oscilloscope I’ll send along what the wave form looks like. > > Jay > > > > > On Dec 19, 2024, at 10:11 AM, Jesse Dahl via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > I think about resistive loads as “in-phase”. Half-wave seem like they would a load with a diode blocking one side of the waveform. > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Dec 18, 2024, at 3:03 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > >  > I will add that I’ve heard privately off list that it’s actually smaller loads that seem to be the issue. > > And larger 1500 watt electric heaters seem to work ok. > > I’m wondering if anyone else has come across this issue and I guess more importantly is there a fix? > > Jay > > > On Dec 18, 2024, at 1:52 PM, Jay > wrote: > >  > Here is what I understand 1/2 wave loads to be. > > As I understand it, Heater loads are the main issue. > > Toasters, toaster ovens, hair dryers, aquarium/terraium heaters etc. > > But if there are other things pls let us know > > Jay > > > On Dec 18, 2024, at 1:34 PM, GLBCC via RE-wrenches > wrote: > >  > What is a half wave load? > > On Dec 18, 2024 13:35, Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Hi all. > > I’ve recently been made aware that the fortress inverter isn’t too happy with 1/2 wave loads. > > I’m wondering if this is an issue with the AIO or solark? > > Thanks in advance > > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Mon Dec 23 12:40:31 2024 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2024 07:40:31 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Seeking Advice on LG Solar Panel RMA Process Message-ID: Aloha All, Does anyone have experience with the RMA process for LG Solar Panels? We maintain a 98.58kW system made up of 318 LG310NIC-G4 panels, though we did not install it. During our annual inspection, we identified two defective panels on one string. After a quick visual check of the surrounding section, we found 12 additional panels with similar defects. At first glance, it appears that water has penetrated the panels. We plan to conduct a thorough inspection next month and would like to prepare in advance by understanding what information LG requires and what their RMA process entails. While we’ve only installed a handful of LG panels over the years and haven’t encountered issues before, this is new territory for us. So far, I’ve reached out to *solar at lgsupport.com* and called *888-865-3026*, but I haven’t received a response yet. I also came across a 2021 LG RMA form, which outlines a rather detailed and time-intensive process. It is comparable to SolarEdge’s optimizer RMA process, requiring multiple photos, multimeter readings, and IR imaging for each affected panel. Can anyone confirm if this is still LG’s current process? For reference, the issue initially presented as a consistent early-morning ground fault warning at the inverter. Happy Holidays! Aloha, Lou Russo Owner lou at spreesolarsystems.com Office - 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Mon Dec 23 16:04:13 2024 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2024 16:04:13 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Seeking Advice on LG Solar Panel RMA Process In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Lou, I had to reach out to them recently about an AC module of theirs that stopped working. I did send the RMA form to solar at lgsupport.com. It took them 4 days to respond. Turns out they were able to reset it remotely to get it working again. I am attaching the RMA form that I have. And here is the email signature, which has the same phone number it looks like you used: Solar Support LG Electronics Alabama, Inc. 201 James Record Road | Huntsville, AL 35824 t: 888-865-3026 Option 4 Good luck! Cheers, Dave On Mon, Dec 23, 2024, 12:41 PM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Aloha All, > > Does anyone have experience with the RMA process for LG Solar Panels? > > We maintain a 98.58kW system made up of 318 LG310NIC-G4 panels, though we > did not install it. During our annual inspection, we identified two > defective panels on one string. After a quick visual check of the > surrounding section, we found 12 additional panels with similar defects. At > first glance, it appears that water has penetrated the panels. We plan to > conduct a thorough inspection next month and would like to prepare in > advance by understanding what information LG requires and what their RMA > process entails. > > While we’ve only installed a handful of LG panels over the years and > haven’t encountered issues before, this is new territory for us. > > So far, I’ve reached out to *solar at lgsupport.com* and called > *888-865-3026*, but I haven’t received a response yet. I also came across > a 2021 LG RMA form, which outlines a rather detailed and time-intensive > process. It is comparable to SolarEdge’s optimizer RMA process, requiring > multiple photos, multimeter readings, and IR imaging for each affected > panel. > > Can anyone confirm if this is still LG’s current process? > > For reference, the issue initially presented as a consistent early-morning > ground fault warning at the inverter. > > Happy Holidays! > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > Owner > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > Office - 808 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Solar RMA Request Form_Final 17-Feb-2023.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 52873 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Tue Dec 24 10:58:42 2024 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2024 08:58:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Seeking Advice on LG Solar Panel RMA Process In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Lou, I did LG RMAs in 2018 and 2021 and the submittal forms and process look nearly identical to what Dave shared. The email address through which I communicated was different however: solarsvc Cheers, Sam [image: OnSite Energy] SAM HARALDSON Operations Specialist (406) 551-6135 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 Locally owned and operated since 2012 [image: B Corporation] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Mon Dec 30 19:55:11 2024 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2024 19:55:11 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RE Markets Message-ID: <56807447c7bab299242e45a4349180b7@redwoodalliance.org> Is the RE Markets list still active? I tried to post, but it didn't seem to go through. _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Mon Dec 30 22:24:25 2024 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2024 19:24:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] RE Markets In-Reply-To: <56807447c7bab299242e45a4349180b7@redwoodalliance.org> References: <56807447c7bab299242e45a4349180b7@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <1735615465.197915138@webmail.finestplanet.com> I see it! On Monday, December 30, 2024 4:55pm, "Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches" said: Is the RE Markets list still active? I tried to post, but it didn't seem to go through. Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional -- Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From berkeleysolar at outlook.com Tue Dec 31 11:27:13 2024 From: berkeleysolar at outlook.com (Mark Frye) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2024 16:27:13 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LI Battery For Stand Alone? Message-ID: Folks, I have spec'd the Morningstar Genstar for my stand alone power supply. The application is in harsh desert environments so low and high temperatures. I need very high reliability. I am currently spec'ing 250 AH of AGM at 48V, with 80% allowed DOD. Before I pull the trigger on this, I am wondering if LiPo has come far enough in terms of simplicity and reliability. Are folks now using LiPo successfully in this type of application? If so, which products? Thanks, Mark Frye -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Tue Dec 31 12:12:03 2024 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jarvis) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2024 11:12:03 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LI Battery For Stand Alone? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 80% DOD on an AGM battery is pretty aggressive and won't lead to very long battery life. Is that your normal design intended depth of discharge or that just where you the LVDs set to cut out? You mention cold. And you are talking about 250 amp/hour and a genasun controller. So a pretty small system. Unless you are planning on somehow climate controlling the battery bank, I think for all practical purposes lithium batteries aren't going to work because they generally aren't rated to charge in the cold. I always try to massively oversize my battery banks. The only complaint is the cost. Limited charging rate has sulfating and other chronic undercharging concerns. But I find that in (my) real world the customer is generally happy that their loads stayed on and it tempers the cost of a battery replacement down the road. -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ On Tue, Dec 31, 2024 at 10:27 AM Mark Frye via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Folks, > > > > I have spec’d the Morningstar Genstar for my stand alone power supply. > > > > The application is in harsh desert environments so low and high > temperatures. > > > > I need very high reliability. > > > > I am currently spec’ing 250 AH of AGM at 48V, with 80% allowed DOD. > > > > Before I pull the trigger on this, I am wondering if LiPo has come far > enough in terms of simplicity and reliability. > > > > Are folks now using LiPo successfully in this type of application? > > > > If so, which products? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Mark Frye > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From berkeleysolar at outlook.com Tue Dec 31 12:29:01 2024 From: berkeleysolar at outlook.com (Mark Frye) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2024 17:29:01 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LI Battery For Stand Alone? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: James, The 80% DOD is just at the rare low insolation, LVD event. I am spec’ing the Morningstar Genstar. I like that I can run the battery at 48V (4 x 12V series). This will be on a skid, out in the open, so no climate control. Some Li batteries are now coming with “self-heating” feature which sounds good on paper but would add another twist to the load calculation. Mark From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of James Jarvis via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2024 9:12 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: James Jarvis Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] LI Battery For Stand Alone? 80% DOD on an AGM battery is pretty aggressive and won't lead to very long battery life. Is that your normal design intended depth of discharge or that just where you the LVDs set to cut out? You mention cold. And you are talking about 250 amp/hour and a genasun controller. So a pretty small system. Unless you are planning on somehow climate controlling the battery bank, I think for all practical purposes lithium batteries aren't going to work because they generally aren't rated to charge in the cold. I always try to massively oversize my battery banks. The only complaint is the cost. Limited charging rate has sulfating and other chronic undercharging concerns. But I find that in (my) real world the customer is generally happy that their loads stayed on and it tempers the cost of a battery replacement down the road. -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ On Tue, Dec 31, 2024 at 10:27 AM Mark Frye via RE-wrenches > wrote: Folks, I have spec’d the Morningstar Genstar for my stand alone power supply. The application is in harsh desert environments so low and high temperatures. I need very high reliability. I am currently spec’ing 250 AH of AGM at 48V, with 80% allowed DOD. Before I pull the trigger on this, I am wondering if LiPo has come far enough in terms of simplicity and reliability. Are folks now using LiPo successfully in this type of application? If so, which products? Thanks, Mark Frye _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: